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Irrlicht - Fast Realtime 3D Engine

Surye writes "Though a few days late on the release, Irrlicht has released version 0.7 of its engine. The site describes it as 'an open source high performance realtime 3D engine written in C++. It is completely cross-platform, using D3D, OpenGL and its own software renderer, and has all of the state-of-the-art features which can be found in commercial 3d engines.' Bindings for java, perl, ruby, and python, and it is platform independent (only implemented currently on Windows and Linux, but when it moves to other platforms, the code will be completely portable). The feature list is simply amazing, and since it's still being quite actively developed, I can see this becoming a major player soon."

221 comments

  1. game applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is neat and all, but they need to make a complete game with it. Without the game, the engine developers don't really know what game developers need, thus insuring that it's never used in commercial games.

    1. Re:game applications by theparanoidcynic · · Score: 0

      But it's GPL. Commercial game houses can make whatever modifications they think they need and commit them back. Sure, it'd help their competitors too but they have less coding to do if they have something to bounce off.

      Besides, it might cause a move towards better stories that way instead of "hella FPS destruction forest 2005."

      --
      Only in a Slashdot fantasy can a Slackware install turn into several hours of sex . . . . .
    2. Re:game applications by Rakefighter · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is NOT GPL. Read the freaking web site.

      --

      --Life may have no meaning, or, even worse, it may have a meaning of which you disapprove.

    3. Re:game applications by theparanoidcynic · · Score: 1, Funny

      Read the . . . . read the website?

      You must be new around here. :p

      --
      Only in a Slashdot fantasy can a Slackware install turn into several hours of sex . . . . .
    4. Re:game applications by nkh · · Score: 1

      I don't understand you: you make it sound like it's a bad thing it's not covered by the GPL. But their license allows you to use it in a commercial product (with your modifications) without restrictions. It won't prevent commercial games to be written from it.

    5. Re:game applications by LnxAddct · · Score: 1

      heh good reply :) But also, even if it was GPL, if don't distribute it, they wouldn't need to give the new changes back either.
      Regards,
      Steve

    6. Re:game applications by nofx_3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. A project like this is actual one of those instances where a GPL license might be a bad idea. If both commercial and open-source developers all work on one engine, there are bound to be some contributions from both fronts (all from the open source camp) but there is the benefit that if this engine matures we will have games that are playable on any platform. I don't give a damn about my games being free as in beer, as long as developers are willing to make good games that play on linux I will be happy, even if the code is not open source.

      I do think that even commercial developers would give something back to a community that provided them with a free, robust, and mature game engine.

      -kaplanfx

      --
      Visualize Whirled Peas
    7. Re:game applications by Holi · · Score: 1

      Ummm, selling a game is distrobution so they would need to give changes back if it were gpl'd

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    8. Re:game applications by pmjordan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's somewhat true. I've selected Irrlicht for graphics in our project, and although it's better than most other engines out there, it's still a pain to integrate into a game and still make it be replacable.

      The problem with all game-oriented graphics engines I've seen is that they do more than it says on the box. They handle input, XML parsing, file handling, etc. and you end up re-implementing a lot of stuff to tie it in with your code unless you let yourself depend completely on the engine in question.

      ~phil

    9. Re:game applications by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1
      Exactly. A project like this is actual one of those instances where a GPL license might be a bad idea.
      Not entirely true, although your idea is correct.

      As you know, the Quake 2 engine is released under the GPL. As an alternative to abiding by the rules of the GPL, you may shell out a single payment to change the license to something closer to your liking. (To prevent some potential issues, the alternate license should only apply to the base source code tree, as well as changes intended to be merged into the tree.)

      The dual licensing method is commonly used by developers who either want to see the community gain from redistribution, or monetary compensation should the game developer want to keep the source closed.
    10. Re:game applications by logicnazi · · Score: 1

      I'm a little confused. How does this force you to do more work than if they hadn't done file handling, XML parsing? Why can't you just rip out the parts that you don't need or have implemented yourself. Also I don't see why you can't just let the engine handle it's files and use your code to handle your own files.

      Furthermore, if the engine is done correctly why not just rely on it for things like file access. Either it, or the library it relies on, will provide a simply method to access the direct contents of a file. Even better why not just contribute the extra things you need to the code base.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    11. Re:game applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He never said it was GPL....
      He said it was open source
      open source != GPL

    12. Re:game applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I created a Game based off of Irrlicht for a school project.

      Although it has good features and good documentation as far as open source engines go, it will not compete with the likes of doom or half-life. The reason for this is speed. It is NOT as fast.

      Irrlicht uses a very outdated method of restricting which objects are going to be rendered and rasterized (a technique called culling) as opposed to the complex method used in doom and half-life. In Irrlicht, this is called an Octree where in better engines they use a BSP (I believe).

      Carmack does not find this to be much of a threat, I guarantee.

    13. Re:game applications by Sunnan · · Score: 3, Insightful
      we will have games that are playable on any platform.

      Not unless the game developers provide recompiles for all platforms. The only programs that are truly "platform independent" come with source code.
    14. Re:game applications by jericho4.0 · · Score: 1

      Uh, no, he quite clearly said GPL. It's in his post, about 4 inches up.

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    15. Re:game applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was looking at the original post...

    16. Re:game applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You must be new around here.

      Hahahaha HAHAHAHA! Stop it! oh man that's funny! You're killing me! HAHAHAHA oh come on man just quit it! Nobody EVER that of THAT joke before! I can't believe it! hahahahaha!

    17. Re:game applications by pmjordan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The point is that stuff such as file handling should be unified within the game, but everyone will have their own system. We use PhysFS to abstract everything within one big file tree. If you use PhysFS, you have to change, or, if you want to be able to upgrade to a higher version later without any trouble later, rewrite all the Irrlicht code that uses files, rather than writing some kind of plugin/implementing a generic interface.

      XML parsing was possibly a bad example, but we've basically got two XML parsers compiled into the game right now. Irrlicht's XML parser would be a pain to get running with PhysFS, and it only works once the graphics engine is set up, at which point we'll actually have done a considerable amount of XML file loading already.

      The problem with all this added functionality is that it's fairly laborious to work around if you don't want it, and it's quite likely that that is the case, because the way it's integrated into the engine isn't especially flexible.

      Input handling is another one of these problems. We support keyboard and joystick input in our game. Because keyboard input is heavily tied in with the windowing abstraction, and thus the graphics engine, it seems sensible to put it into the graphics engine. It isn't that clever though, because you'd now have two seperate systems doing almost the same thing - the graphics engine doing keyboard input, and the input system doing joystick input. It's barmy!

      I also shy away from anything but graphics being dependent on the graphics engine. If there was an Irrlicht file handling module, an Irrlicht Input module, and an Irrlicht graphics module, that would be great. If I decided to drop Irrlicht graphics I could still use Irrlicht file handling without having this behemoth sleeping in my source tree. As it is, I wouldn't even want to rely on loading sound files with the Irrlicht file system, because sound and graphics are, and should be separate.

      It can certainly be worked around, it would just be a lot friendlier to make it inherently more extensible, for example by creating a very simple file handling interface, providing a standard implementation that uses fstream objects or whatever, but leaving you the ability to create another implementation to that interface which happens to use your file handling system of choice. Lots of C-based libraries use callbacks for this kind of stuff, and in C++, with polymorphism in the language, it should be even cleaner!

      ~phil

    18. Re:game applications by arturs · · Score: 1
      Heve you checked the license terms?

      http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/license.html

      It's not GPL! Noone is going to create a game library under GPL, for obvious reasons. Even normal general-purpose libraries tend to be LGPL and less restrictive. A game library is a very special case: the developers are really interested in seeing a cool commercial game created with it.

    19. Re:game applications by arturs · · Score: 1

      Check out the demo distrubuted with Irrlicht. It's not a complete game, but could easily be. Sooner or later someone writes a game with Irrlicht as it's getting really good.

    20. Re:game applications by smclean · · Score: 1
      Recurring jokes? On Slashdot?

      You must be new around here.

      --

      "'Yrch!' said Legolas, falling into his own tongue."

    21. Re:game applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uhh.. thats even worse than not readying the web site - whats the point of making a game if you don't distrubute it?

  2. Finally... by SlickMcSly · · Score: 1

    Something that might pick up where GLUT left off!

    1. Re:Finally... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has nothing to do with GLUT (ok, it could /use/ GLUT, but I very much doubt it). If you want a GLUT replacement, use SDL.

    2. Re:Finally... by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      Both you and the parent are complete retards. GLUT is more or less a macro library for OpenGL. It does all of the crap you are too lazy to do. That isnt what this article is about and it certainly isnt what SDL is.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    3. Re:Finally... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does Irrlicht have to do with SDL?

  3. How does this compare... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    There's another OS 3d engine called crystal space 3d. It's been in development FOREVER now, and I'm still waiting for a completed cross-platform game, but it looks like a cool proejct. Anyone feel like porting this to mac?

    1. Re:How does this compare... by DetrimentalFiend · · Score: 2, Informative

      Have you ever tried to work with crystal space or looked at the source code? Last time I did (several years back) it was one of the biggest messes of code that I've ever seen. I gave up on it too soon to understand it very well, but from what I could see, it was not designed very well and was consistantly a few steps behind commercial engines. On the other hand, it seems that Irrlicht is well designed and should scale well over time. It also appears to have developers that are making progress much faster than crystal space. Basically what I'm getting at is that crystal space 3d was never a viable candidate for a real game.

    2. Re:How does this compare... by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We've been looking at Crystal Space, as well as Irrlicht and others such as the Nebula Device. In the end, we ended up buying licenses for Torque from GarageGames, because it has been used to do several games and it has lots of integrated tools built right into the engine. You can move and reshape just about everything inside the running game. Now, it is a bit dated, but there will be a newer version out hopefully soon with all those shaders the kids like. For now, it is definitely good enough for most people. Most people couldn't produce content to match the newest engines anyways... ;-)

      Really, Crystal Space or the Nebula Device may be better in themselves, but if we were to use them, we'd have to recreate all these tools ourselves. Hint: if you are gonna do a game of any serious magnitude, you will need tools, and lots of them. If Crystal Space wants to start seeing games built, they should include starter kits (as in something simple to start modding instead of starting from scratch) and more importantly tools. Tools for manipulating terrain, creating particle effects, placing objects and so on. Being able to import stuff from Quark or Maya is not enough. DO you as a level designer want to place everything in your game by entering numbers in a text file? I thought not... =)

      As for Irrlicht, I really like it a lot. It is cool, it is really, really easy to get something up quickly in, it has good performance and plenty of good examples to get one started. However, it is nowhere finished enough (but I can wait) and it is not a game engine - it is a 3D rendering engine that could very well be used to power an awesome game engine. I think some people over there are working on such beasts, though I don't know the status... if any of them also read this, remember the tools boys! ;-)

    3. Re:How does this compare... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Anyone feel like porting this [planeshift.it] to mac?

      That is already happening :) The Planeshift team has a Mac developer now.

    4. Re:How does this compare... by ricotest · · Score: 2, Informative

      Crystal Space is well designed, it just takes some getting used to. It's extremely OO. It's bloated somewhat. You need to have it handle all your variables for you etc.

      However it's extremely powerful, and kicks the ass out of this engine from my impression. The existing renderer isn't too good, probably about the standards of this one, but their new renderer is capable of cel shading and bump mapping to make Doom 3 envious. And as the poster pointed out it's behind a relatively big-name OSS game. Although I must admit I haven't seen many other examples of its use.

      If you are planning on using CS for development, consider CEL, the Crystal Entity Layer. Like CS itself it's in production and nowhere near finished, but handles entities for you (including physics and AI). Something to look out for.

      CS's version number at the moment is 0.98r004 - this is normal. They keep increasing it in tiny amounts because, unlike GAIM, they are scared of reaching 1.0 :)

    5. Re:How does this compare... by Tet · · Score: 3, Interesting
      In the end, we ended up buying licenses for Torque from GarageGames

      I've always wondered why there seem to be so few (any?) licencees of Croteam's Serious Engine. Are they just pricing themselves out of the market, or something? I mean, Serious Sam has proved that it's more than capable of getting the job done, and Serious Editor looks to provide all the tools you could want. So why aren't people using it? What made you choose Torque? What advantages did it have over the competition?

      --
      "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
    6. Re:How does this compare... by Sir+Homer · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's cause SeriousEngine and Torque are completely different leagues. One Torque license is only $100 (with no royalty!), when the most limited SeriousEngine license is $20,000, and which includes high royalty rate, NO updates, and NO technical support. They are completely alienating hobby/indie developers who have less money to spend on a car let alone an engine. They are alienating professional developers too who have a $10 million dollar budget and who would pay the extra $100k for a better engine. Hence why they have no market share.

    7. Re:How does this compare... by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lot of it boils down to who you are and why you are getting an engine, and yes, price matters. If you are an indie, an hobbyist or an upstart, $20,000 (Serious Engine minimum) is still a lot of money, even if the engine itself is worth every buck. I wouldn't know if it is, I just skimmed the site briefly.

      If you are someone who has investors backing you, or have a company with money in the bank... or at least someone with a contract with a publisher, you maybe can afford to shell out that kind of money, but is it worth it?

      On the surface, it seems you are getting about the same deal as you get with Torque, which is $100 per programmer - so it would then be a matter of ease of use and results: Are the tools that much better and does the result look that much nicer that it will be worth it - and even more importantly, will it pay off in money returned?

      But don't get me wrong, $20,000 is a drop in the ocean if we are talking about modern AAA games budgets, that is like what? What it costs to have a programmer for a couple of months maybe? So it may well be worth it to get that extra bang. However, if you have the money, why not step up a bit more and get an engine from Epic or ID or something? Sure, it costs quite a lot more, but you get to put "Powered by Really Known Engine" on the box. ;-)

      I'k kinda guessing that they might fall between the chairs a bit: low budget productions and upstarts can't afford it, and it isn't cool enough for the big boys.

      Also add to the fact that because Torque is so cheap, students and hobbysist can afford it, which gives a big and friendly userbase and community that helps each other out... and these guys can afford to do a demo level that can be used to sell the real game, which will use... Torque, probably, because that is what they know. They aren't gonna switch engine unless they land a deal that lets them buy one of the really big guns.

      Or so I speculate. It isn't easy to be sure of anything, but those are my best guesses.

      And am I happy we chose Torque? Yeah, mostly. What you get per dollar is simply unbeatable, even by the free alternatives, and the company has a sound take on open source, cross platform and indies. The engine sure has a lot of quirks, which hopefully will be sorted out with TSE, the next generation, but compared to doing all the tools ourselves or doing editing without them, it is a no-brainer.

      Would I use the Unreal Engine instead if I could? Probably in a heart-beat, as long as I personally didn't pay for it. ;-) But this Serious Engine? Dunno. Is it that good?

    8. Re:How does this compare... by Jorrit · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you think CS is not well designed and bloated then you don't really understand the structure. CS is very modular so while indeed we have a big source base, all of those modules are more or less independent. They result in plugins that can be loaded dynamically in the game. It is VERY easy to make a trimmed down version of Crystal Space where you simply remove the plugins that you don't want.

      As to design. CS is complicated to use (I agree with that) but the design of CS is geared towards flexibility (both for the game writer and also with regards to supporting new advanced features of modern 3D cards).

      Of course, I'm the original creator of Crystal Space. So take my opinion with a mountain of salt :-)

      Greetings,

      --
      Project Manager of Crystal Space (http://www.crystalspace3d.org). Support CS at http://tinyurl.com/cb3x4
    9. Re:How does this compare... by arturs · · Score: 1
      Just take a quick look at the screenshots:

      Irrlicht

      and

      Crystal Space

  4. So how is this engine different? by dsanfte · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Most open-source 3D engines are undocumented messes thrown together in the spare time of otherwise gainfully-employed graphics programmers.

    Ever tried coding with Genesis 3D? The documentation is shit. Take for example the explanation for the "GoEngine" function:

    GENESISAPI geBoolean geEngine_Activate(geEngine* Engine, geBoolean bActive);

    This seems to have something to do with whether the application is the current Active application.


    Yeah, hey guys, it seems to have something to do with something! Let's code with it! For fuck's sakes.

    Show me a 3D engine with reasonably documented code and I'll jump at it. Until then, you may have all the features in the world Mr. Engine Programmer, but if I can't pick it up and start doing something meaningful within an hour, you've failed miserably at your primary task: making sure the engine is actually usable.
    --
    occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
    1. Re:So how is this engine different? by int2str · · Score: 4, Informative

      I guess Irrlicht is pretty good then...

      Irrlicht Documentation

    2. Re:So how is this engine different? by harmonica · · Score: 1

      Some other people have replied to the documentation issue. Irrlicht seems to be quite good in that department.

      However, the question in the subject is a valid one.

      What makes Irrlicht different or even better than other libraries? Anyone here with some practical experience who can shed some light on that?

    3. Re:So how is this engine different? by itp · · Score: 1

      Looks like you were so eager to get your "insightful" comment posted that you didn't even have time to read any of the links or look around. For fuck's sakes.

      You may be smart and angry, Mr. Slashdot Commenter, but if you can't read any of the articles before ranting about something, you've failed miserably at your primary task: contributing to a meaningful discussion.

    4. Re:So how is this engine different? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may be smart and angry, Mr. Slashdot Commenter, but if you can't read any of the articles before ranting about something, you've failed miserably at your primary task: contributing to a meaningful discussion.

      Four digit UID... can't be new here.
      Expects meaningful discussion on Slashdot... MUST be new here.

      LOGIC ERROR (head explodes)

    5. Re:So how is this engine different? by eyeye · · Score: 1

      The tech demo is terrible, I thought I had downloaded a GBA emulator for a few seconds.

      --
      Bush and Blair ate my sig!
    6. Re:So how is this engine different? by mabinogi · · Score: 1

      More like, been here long enough to remember when there used to be meaningful discussion...

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    7. Re:So how is this engine different? by jinzumkei · · Score: 1

      It's not open-source but Torque is pretty well documented

  5. Within three hours of Irrlicht's release by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    3D Realms issued a press release saying that they had standardized on it for the final engine to be used in Duke Nukem Forever

    When asked whether the move to Irrlicht would interfere with the work already done since their announcement last week that DNF had standardized on the Mario Party 6 engine, 3D Realms declined to answer, instead apparently becoming distracted by and taking chase after a rabbit running through the grass nearby

  6. OSS needs this. by g-to-the-o-to-the-g · · Score: 2

    Its about time. The OSS community definitely needs something like this, which hopefully could eventually lead to some high-quality GPL'd games and such. The current profolio of gaming on Linux isn't very impressive in comparison to Windows or even Mac OS. Hopefully this will also encourage companies to ports their games to more platforms (like Linux). I know fellow gentoo'ers would appreciate this. As much as I love Linux, it lacks seriously in the gaming department.

    1. Re:OSS needs this. by Mskpath3 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Don't count on it. The 'engine' bit of 3d games these days is frankly only the tip of a very very large iceberg when it comes to an actual game. Yes, it's high profile and it attacts the fanboys - but it's a triviality compared to the actual work involved in designing and finishing a fun game. Games are starting to regularly cost $15 million to make with teams of 50-100 people or more. It doesn't matter if you've got the latest and greatest (until 3 months from now) tech - if you don't have the army of artists and their designer and programmer shepherds, you've got bubkus :)

      This is not to say you'll -never- see anything. But of all the things you'll ever see 'open source' be viable for, AAA game development is the least likely.

      Engines are neat and keen, but over the years, you learn to stifle a yawn whenever the newest thing comes out. 3D engines are all converging on the same thing (data/art driven shader pipelines with snazzy occlusion, streaming, high grade physics, and an assortment of more and more widely known tricks).

  7. Will It Last? by chesp3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I came across this engine once while looking for a good 3D engine for one of my games. It was great but people are afraid of the "iron fist" developer.

    Apparently the engine has only one developer who can supposedly drop the project at anytime. Probably not likely though. Maybe there are more developers now, this was weeks ago.

    1. Re:Will It Last? by yeremein · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apparently the engine has only one developer who can supposedly drop the project at anytime.

      Even if that happens, you have the source code, so you can maintain it yourself.

      Granted, if the project went under you wouldn't get any new bug fixes or patches, but for what you paid for it ($0), what can you expect? :)

    2. Re:Will It Last? by Mike+deVice · · Score: 5, Informative

      My understanding is that the developer simply didn't wish to put his code into CVS or the like until after a version 1.0 release. Some other people at Irrlicht NX decided to take the source, stick it in CVS, and apply patches and fixes and the like. The author had zero problems with this, and even lauded the effort.

    3. Re:Will It Last? by abigor · · Score: 0, Troll

      What makes you think the source code is available?

      Newsflash: it's not.

    4. Re:Will It Last? by Jeremi · · Score: 2, Informative
      The very first link on the download page says this: "Software development kit required to develop applications with the Irrlicht engine. Included is the documentation and the source code of the engine, 12 tutorials, a cool technology demo wich shows the capabilities of the engine, and a lot more."


      So it would appear that source is in fact available.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    5. Re:Will It Last? by Olathe · · Score: 1

      What makes me think the source code is available is the summary of the SDK download that you couldn't be bothered to read.

    6. Re:Will It Last? by damiangerous · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should look again.

    7. Re:Will It Last? by mqduck · · Score: 1

      From the FAQ:

      Can I help you with the engine?

      You want to be a part of the programming team of the engine, developing and improving it? I am very sorry, it sounds a little bit egoistic, but until version 1.0 of the Engine I have not planned to involve more developers in the project than one, me. This is because I think the engine will be modified a lot until this version. I have a some experience working in development teams with projects wich change their specification during development, and hence, to be able to be very flexible and to minimize bugs in the engine, I do not want to let anybody else make changes to the internal engine until version 1.0.

      But here is what you could do:

      * Implement additions to the engine. You could write new scene nodes as described in the tutorials. For example a terrain scene node would be cool. If your scene node is useful has a clean implementation and is well documentated, just send it to me, and I will make it available on this page, if you want. Other possible extension would be more mesh and texture file format loaders.
      * Use the engine, find bugs, and report them or make a solution proposal.
      * If you have ideas how to improve the design/interface of the engine, post them into the forum or send them to me, per email.
      * If you want a new feature implemented, post your request into the forum so we can discuss it.

      --
      Property is theft.
    8. Re:Will It Last? by abigor · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually, I read the FAQ:

      Is there no CVS / Can you send me the code of the current development version of the engine?

      No, I cannot send you the code I am currently working on. If I want someone to use new or updated code of the engine, I'll create a new release. And I am not going to create very unstable preview versions of the engine, because I don't have the time to answer thousands of arising questions which are caused by the inmaturity and instability of the released code. This is also the same reason, why I don't set up an CVS server, although lots of users are demanding this. Sorry.

      So I guess it's only old code that's available. I remember looking at this project long ago, and there was no code available at all. Anyway, he still doesn't accept patches, which is of course entirely his prerogative.

    9. Re:Will It Last? by Proud+like+a+god · · Score: 1

      People, mod parent up.

      No the source isn't GPL, yes it's available, no the developer doesnt have a CVS running, yes there is a forked one, see the parent's link.

    10. Re:Will It Last? by Screaming+Lunatic · · Score: 1
      Nikolaus Gebhardt, the developer in question, wants to make all the architectural decisions and do all of the development until the engine hits 1.0. That's fine. That is a very viable method to secure the vision of an open-source project.

      Fear that the project will be abandoned is mostly unfounded. It is released under a libPNG style license and may be branched at any time.

    11. Re:Will It Last? by Nyder · · Score: 1

      well, I download the 3d engine, and the source code is included in the file.

      Makes you feel real proud doesn't it?

      Newsflash: your an idiot.

      am I cool now also?

      --
      Be seeing you...
    12. Re:Will It Last? by Threni · · Score: 1

      > Newsflash: your an idiot.

      The irony is delicious!

  8. Re:Portable 3D Engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, you can use OpenGL on Windows too (it's simply on D3D by default). IIRC, it's also available on MAC. But the Unreal engine is neither Open Source nor free.

    About this engine, while it's interesting in itself, I wouldn't go around saying "state-of-the-art" out loud. Those screenshots were "state-of-the-art" 5 years ago.

  9. Before you start bashing, check the site... by thrill12 · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...and download Irrlicht 0.7. In it, you will find "Irrlicht.chm", which starts with (I quote):
    Welcome to the Irrlicht Engine API documentation. Here you'll find any information you'll need to develop applications with the Irrlicht Engine. If you look for a tutorial on how to start, take a look at the homepage of the Irrlicht Engine at irrlicht.sourceforge.net or into the SDK in the directory \examples.

    The Irrlicht Engine is intended to be an easy-to-use 3d engine, so this documentation is an important part of it. If you have any questions or suggestions, just send a email to the author of the engine, Nikolaus Gebhardt (niko (at) code3d.com).


    In the documentation are the classes explained in a quite clear and concise manner, in JAVADOC-style.

    I'm sorry, but some 3D-engines do think that documentation is important, so I guess your 3D engine with reasonably documented code is already here....

    --
    Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
  10. "Game" engine vs 3D engine. by noselasd · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just wanted people to realize the diffrence here. irrlicht is is
    a 3d engine, which is about putting things on screen.
    For making a full game, much much more is needed. Player control/input
    handling, level loading when needed, loading saving of progress. Physics. AI. And , well, a _whole_ lot of other code. Plus some amazing
    artists and a good way of dealing with content made in 3d party applications(modellers)..

    1. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You are exactly right. There is an incredible difference between making a 3D engine and making a 3D game. There are already tons of free 3D engines out there, and how many of them can boast being used in a successful commercial game? Granted, open source 3D engines are fantastic for hobbyists and for learning from, but I think rarely are they robust enough, documented enough, and supported enough for serious commercial use.

    2. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by wuice · · Score: 1

      I have a hard time believing they are intended for serious commercial use. For the hobbyist who wants to make their own game for fun and challenge, though, it's definitely a big first step.

    3. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the grandparent is trying to make the distinction between a 3D engine and a 3D game engine. It seems he thinks it is the former while it does appear to be the latter.

    4. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by cronius · · Score: 1
      Just wanted people to realize the diffrence here. irrlicht is is a 3d engine, which is about putting things on screen. For making a full game, much much more is needed. Player control/input handling,
      ... +sound, and to do this you have SDL. SDL+OpenGL makes up everything DirectX does. SDL is also platform independent.
      --
      Life is Reality
    5. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by Coryoth · · Score: 1

      For making a full game, much much more is needed. Player control/input
      handling, level loading when needed, loading saving of progress. Physics. AI. And , well, a _whole_ lot of other code.


      Indeed, and sound, which I can't find any mention of on their website. Sound is often overlooked - consider how effective in creating atmosphere the advanced sound engine in Doom3 was, it made a significant difference to the feel of the game.

      If you're looking to make a game I'd usggest you consider tenebrae2 which is a GPL game engine, based on the GPLd quake source code, beefed up to include all the latest eye candy like bump mapping, specular highlights, dynamic lighting etc. Check out some screenshots to get the idea. It uses OpenAL for sound, so that is pretty useful too.

      As far as I know there is no physics engine, and certainly no AI - but then AI tends to be game specific. It does represent a good base for anyone looking to create a graphically impressive 3D game.

      Jedidiah

    6. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by The+Real+Nem · · Score: 1

      To further prove your point, the following is taken right out of their documentation:

      // load .bsp file and show it using an octtree scenemgr->addOctTreeSceneNode(scenemgr->getMesh("q uake3map.bsp"));

      A BSP is a Binary Space Partition (a binary tree) which is a fairly ingenious way of managing 3D scenes, they have completely thrown away all of these advantages by extracting the geometry and inserting it in an octtree. The reason is obvious (a nice abstract expandable interface) but the result can never be professional grade. It lacks performance.

    7. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by Blaskowicz · · Score: 2, Informative

      well it's just about loading a map in quake format; those are .bsp files ;)

    8. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by logicnazi · · Score: 1

      Huh? A BSP and octree aren't very differn't. Both are space partition methods where an octree divides every level into 8 sections a BSP divides it in half. Now a BSP does (usually, I imagine you could implement some better octree) have the advantage of allowing the remaining space to be split by an arbitrary plane while an octree always uses cubes. However, this is also a disadvantage.

      Consider rendering in an octree model. First we can render everything in the cube the camera occupies, adding neighboring cubes only if visible. We only traverse up the octree when something outside the space we are in is visible. The same is not true in a BSP. The space bounding the camera is bounded by planes from *many* levels in the BSP. Admitedly they are the levels directly above the node you are currently occupying.

      Quite frankly it isn't clear to me which one is superior. However, I hardly think the issue warrants the sharp, but unreasoned, criticism above.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    9. Re:"Game" engine vs 3D engine. by julesh · · Score: 1

      It lacks performance.

      I downloaded the engine and tried it. On my fairly pathetic old system with a not-very-good 5-year-old 3D graphics card, the quake 3 level rendering demo in question gets several hundred frames per second. More than adequate performance, I feel, for anything other than the most demanding of games.

      Yes, I doubt you could write Doom3 using this engine. For that kind of cutting-edge work, you need to get directly to the hardware-supported APIs (e.g. OpenGL), rather than working through a simplifying abstraction layer that might prevent you from making certain optimisations.

  11. ... vs OpenSceneGraph? by SuperElectric · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Can anybody who's used both OSG and Irrlicht talk about a few of the more important differences they've noticed?

    1. Re:... vs OpenSceneGraph? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. I'd similarly like to hear from anyone who can compare/contrast this with PLIB. Thanks.

  12. so far, so good. by bagel2ooo · · Score: 1

    I've been dabbling a bit so far. I haven't quite updated to 0.7 yet, however from what I've cooked up it is fairly intuitive. The API documentation is derived from the C header files nearest I can tell. With just about 30 minutes to an hour I had a terrain with some public domain tree models textured and such. I had dabbled with Ogre and CrystalSpace with limited success. Irrlicht has a very nice feature set and a pretty decent software renderer.

    --
    ( o ) one could say I'm rather baked
  13. Engine lacks... by SynKKnyS · · Score: 4, Informative

    Doesn't seem to have normal mapping (bump mapping and its cousins) or portal rendering (and all of its cousins). This doesn't make the engine very modern. It also seems to be lacking in the shaders department.

    However, it is open source so stay tuned in the future!

    1. Re:Engine lacks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Doesn't seem to have normal mapping (bump mapping and its cousins)...

      Bump mapping and it's cousins are generally implemented using vertex and pixel shaders, which the Irrlicht Engine supports.

  14. So by mcc · · Score: 1

    Why would anyone use Irrlicht instead of SDL? Or would it make sense to use both?

    1. Re:So by Ezdaloth · · Score: 2

      SDL is quite a different library then irrlicht. SDL let's you setup a window, etc. But you still have to do drawing yourself. With irrlicht you load a level, and let irrlicht draw it. So, it makes sense to uyse both: irrlicht could use SDL to setup a full-screen window. SDL is also *very* portable, so then irrlicht could esily be ported to osX, BSD, amiga, playstation, etc.

    2. Re:So by cronius · · Score: 2

      Why would anyone use Irrlicht instead of SDL? Or would it make sense to use both?

      SDL only gives platform independent access to sound, mouse, keyboard, joysticks, and 3D graphics through OpenGL. You have to develop your own 3D-engine using OpenGL when using SDL. Irrlicht saves you from that hassle. So combinig SDL and Irrlicht makes sanse, since they cover different areas of a game.

      --
      Life is Reality
    3. Re:So by cryoknight · · Score: 0

      SDL is GPL'd. If you want to make a commercial game with it, well, you cannot, since you'd have to distribute your source code. Unless you think it's a good idea to distribute your source code with your brand new game.
      SDL is not something an aspiring commercial game developer should put much time into for that reason alone.
      I don't mean to be a troll, it just seems like a better idea to learn something you can use later.

    4. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SDL let's you setup a window

      "lets".

  15. not any amazing development since 0.6... by 1234butt · · Score: 2

    Check out the tech demo for irrlicht. Look at the shadows on the running model as she passes by the light source. Irrlicht is still incapable of loading smoothing groups from 3ds models (so all models are unsmoothed). .x format is purported to be the best for irrlicht, yet irrlicht can't load most types of .x format. Why would anyone want to use this ugly engine?

    1. Re:not any amazing development since 0.6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The tech demo is from 0.5
      Says so clearly

    2. Re:not any amazing development since 0.6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Why would anyone want to use this ugly engine?
      Because it's a lot cheaper than a license from id?
  16. Bah... by elFarto+the+2nd · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...wake me up when we've got some hardware raytracers

    Regards
    elFarto
    1. Re:Bah... by Maljin+Jolt · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wake up! You have two of them just at the front side of your head.

      --
      There you are, staring at me again.
    2. Re:Bah... by elFarto+the+2nd · · Score: 1

      Funny, I didn't think my eye's shot out rays.

      In case you didn't know, your eye's RECEIVE light, the computer equivilent of that is photo-mapping, not ray-tracing

      Regards
      elFarto
    3. Re:Bah... by elFarto+the+2nd · · Score: 1

      bah, should have previewed, minus the ' i know it shouldn't be there

    4. Re:Bah... by damiam · · Score: 1
      I didn't think my eye's shot out rays

      In case you didn't know, you don't need an apostrophe to make a plural.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    5. Re:Bah... by Olematon · · Score: 1

      Wakey wakey!!1 RenderDrive

    6. Re:Bah... by elFarto+the+2nd · · Score: 1

      I was actually thinking more along the lines of http://www.saarcor.de/, i.e. for use with games.

      Regards
      elFarto
    7. Re:Bah... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Ray tracing is the process of mathematically calculating the origin of light rays ariving at the camera (or eye). It is not a process of shooting rays out of a camera!

    8. Re:Bah... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I saw a few papers presented at EG2004 this year where people had implemented ray tracers on GPUs (the nVidia SDK even includes a simple one). While the performance isn't quite there yet, it's certainly promising. The down side is that both nVidia and ATi stated that they weren't interested in moving to a ray tracing approach, since they felt it would always be slower and harder (although this could be good news for any start-up that wants to make ray tracing hardware...)

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  17. RTFA by alexborges · · Score: 2, Informative

    Check the screenshot section to see what this thing is doing NOW (actually, some of this features are there for almost a year now):

    - Here are some shots of new features of the development version of upcoming Irrlicht 0.5: The .x file loader, new GUI features, the improved .bsp file renderer, new material types, fog.

    - These shots show the development of version, 0.4.2: Ultra realistic terrain rendering, indoor rendering using the new high quality texture loader, some new features of the user interface system, and curved surfaces.

    - New features of the engine are the collision manager, skeletal animations, particle systems, zfail style stencil shadows, the linux port, picking, water surfaces. The image with the landscape is a terrain renderer for the irrlicht engine coded by 'knighttoflight' using some textures from

    --
    NO SIG
  18. The benefits of a good virtual machine by ShatteredDream · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Imagine if the parrot or mono guys wrote really slick bindings for this and made them availible on all supported platforms. Personally, I would rather have a game that is just "pretty" fast but isn't bound to a particular operating system to one that is really fast, but that I cannot take to any platform I want.

    If PERL 6 and Parrot are able to get really mature in the next 6 months to a year, they owe it to their users to try to provide solid support for a library like this as part of the parrot distribution. A language like PERL 6 which is supposed to be really slick thanks to ruby's influence on its design would be great for opening up game development to the masses.

    The way I see it, unless a game written in C/C++ is going to completely max out your CPU and GPU then it's probably worth being written in C# or PERL 6 eventually. Something like this would be Microsoft's worst nightmare for home users who play games a lot.

    1. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir, are a moron. Continue using perl for your silly web pages and text file parsing. Please don't become a real programmer. You'll give the rest of us a worse name.

    2. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's Perl (the language) and perl (the executable) but never, ever, ever, ever PERL. You'd think ppl would learn that sooner or later... sigh. Obviously you haven't been doing much of it, if you don't know that.

      Apart from that, you are somewhat on the right track. In serious game dev you would want to prototype and code non-time critical code in some kind of script instead of C++ - though high performance parts will be C++ or the like for a long time forward. Parrot would be an excellent choice for this when it is ready. Perl already would be if it wasn't so bloody hard to embed... Lots of people use Python for this stuff despite its limitations and its bondage, and Ruby is another excellent language that could be used... with Parrot, you could use any of these.

      So why not help the guys at Parrot out? If you aren't a core hacker, implementing languages targetting parrot is already possible, and pretty advanced ones at that - python is already possible and more. That will provide them with real life test cases, so please do it.

    3. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by chromatic · · Score: 1

      Darnit, I was just thinking that. Thanks for pushing yet another task on my overburdened stack. Of course, if you're interested, I could certainly show you how....

      (By the way, it's Perl, not PERL.)

    4. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll stop saying PERL when you fuckers stop saying LISP. It's lisp or maybe Lisp these days, dammit!

    5. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Python has several game library bindings available -- PyOpenGL is good as well as a low-level package.

      SDL is available, etc.

      I'd prefer to write games in Python with platform-specific libraries available as modules for CPU-intensive sections. Of course, if a library for the current platform wasn't available, you'd just run in native Python mode instead.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    6. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by BigZaphod · · Score: 1

      This is sort of what I'm working on with my JiggleScript project. If you're interested, check it out. It is very early in development, of course, but I've been spending a ton of time on it lately rewriting it with a new modular design.

    7. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by smallpaul · · Score: 1

      Imagine if the parrot or mono guys wrote really slick bindings for this and made them availible on all supported platforms. Personally, I would rather have a game that is just "pretty" fast but isn't bound to a particular operating system to one that is really fast, but that I cannot take to any platform I want.

      I don't see how these two sentences are related. The article already lists C/C++, Java, Perl, Ruby, and Python bindings. These languages are all portable. Most of them are VM or interpreter-based.

      A language like PERL 6 which is supposed to be really slick thanks to ruby's influence on its design would be great for opening up game development to the masses.

      If you consider Ruby to be a great design then why wouldn't you use it with this engine today rather than waiting 6 months for an alpha of Perl 6?

      The way I see it, unless a game written in C/C++ is going to completely max out your CPU and GPU then it's probably worth being written in C# or PERL 6 eventually.

      What is so special about those two languages??? The thing already supports a boatload of production quality langugaes and VMs. Why wait for these two to mature?

    8. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by julesh · · Score: 1

      (By the way, it's Perl, not PERL.)

      No it isn't.

      NAME
      perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language

      As it is an acronym, I prefer to capitalise the individual letters to reflect this.

    9. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by chromatic · · Score: 1

      Read perldoc perlfaq1, specifically What's the difference between "perl" and "Perl"?

      But never write "PERL", because perl is not an acronym, apocryphal folklore and post-facto expansions notwithstanding.
    10. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by julesh · · Score: 1

      Read perldoc perlfaq1

      My quote came from 'man perl'. Whilever official documents distributed with the software disagree about whether r not its an acronym, I suggest we should all feel free to believe whatever we want. :)

    11. Re:The benefits of a good virtual machine by chromatic · · Score: 1

      I don't see any disagreement in the documentation; the only place the word "PERL" appears (apart from headings, define flags, and environment variables -- all of which which always appear capitalized) is in the section I quoted.

      I suppose the same would go for Tcl, but man tcl doesn't find anything on my box.

  19. Check out the author's blog... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.code3d.com/blog/

    And say an amen to his entry regarding linux and windows.

  20. I was worried but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    according to the features list, the API is "well documentated". Phew!

  21. Any Genesis3D coders here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Somewhat OT, but I'm thinking about using Genesis 3D in a new project. Is it reasonably up to date compared to Irrlicht and some of the others?

  22. Irrlicht is also a Klaus Schulz album by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    It's also a good synth album by Klaus Schulz.

    1. Re:Irrlicht is also a Klaus Schulz album by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It's also a good synth album by Klaus Schulz.

      If you like that, you'll probably also like Nagelbett by Autobahn. :)

  23. Good but not the best by KrackHouse · · Score: 4, Informative

    Irrlicht is good because it's easy to use. If you want a high performance engine for use in a serious project have a look at OGRE. Sure it's harder to use but it has an active community and the performance in complex, real world scenarios is great. I looked at both when researching what to use for Motorsport and right now, OGRE is a better choice for big serious apps. We're using OGRE for our open source driving simulator and it compiles in Linux and Windows with no changes to the code. OGRE is good because it sticks to what it is good at, 3D. There are a lot of Game engines out there that try to be all things to all people but aren't good at any of them. OGRE is good at 3D.

    That said, if you're new to 3D Irrlicht is a good place to start.

    --
    What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
    http://houndwire.com
    1. Re:Good but not the best by Mawen · · Score: 4, Informative

      I second the advice to take a look at Ogre. Ogre has an very clean, well designed, and stable API. (Especially compared to some other engines. I for one found it many times easier to understand and more organized than Crystal Space when I stopped following it a couple years ago.)

      While Irrlicht may be designed to provide a very nice and quick API for beginners to 3D programming, Ogre has seemed more professional to me. As a graphics engine, Ogre seems top-notch in terms of performant implementation of bleeding edge features that won't run on anything less than the latest generation video cards. (I have not really taken a close look at Irrlicht since about version 0.5 though.)

      There have been at least a couple commercial games released (an arcade machine and some game appearing on Finnish television) done with Ogre.

      I think that because it is new, and maybe because it is a graphics engine and not a game engine, Ogre has been getting less press than it may deserve. Anyway, be sure to check it out.

      Also, don't judge an engine by their demo screenshots. Open source authors often don't have the resources to make beautiful artwork to dazzle people with (nor do they have the financial incentive to do so).

    2. Re:Good but not the best by OverflowingBitBucket · · Score: 1

      I'll second that suggestion to consider OGRE. I am presently developing a game (not my first) and one of the two engines I seriously considered using (and started writing game hooks into) was OGRE. Whilst I didn't end up using it in the end, I would say it is an engine with fantastic potential. My guess is that it will become one of the big players in the Open Source 3D-engine arena.

      NB: The reason I passed on it is that I had some hassles interfacing their keyboard/mouse input systems into mine, they weren't too mature when I last tried them. I had no issues whatsoever with the 3D side though.

  24. Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by Jack9 · · Score: 1

    Here is a screenshot of the engine at work:
    wip9.jpg

    can you release a binary or any compiled source, even if "alpha" or worse, under the GPL without the source? That's what he claims to have done (you cannot obtain the source for the current development, nor could you in the past)

    --

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
    Everyone knows me.
    1. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by abigor · · Score: 1

      1. Yes. If you don't pay for the binary, you aren't entitled to the source.

      2. The engine was not released under the GPL in the first place.

    2. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Irrlicht isn't distributed under the GPL license, it uses the zlib license.

    3. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by Holi · · Score: 1

      1. Wrong

      2. Right

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    4. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can you release a binary or any compiled source, even if "alpha" or worse, under the GPL without the source? That's what he claims to have done (you cannot obtain the source for the current development, nor could you in the past)

      Er, what?

      (a) What he's distributing is source code, not a binary, so your question is meaningless.

      (b) Irrlicht is not GPL'd. So your question is meaningless.

      (c) Even if Irrlicht were GPL'd, and he were releasing binaries, the only requirement would be that he release the source code to THOSE BINARIES. There would be no requirement that he release the source code to a development version that he hasn't distributed to anyone.

      I therefore conclude that not only are you lacking reading comprehension and basic legal knowledge, you are also an idiot and a disgrace to the ranks of low 5-digit Slashdot UID holders. Please resign your account and go back to posting "OMG I'm such a n00b!!!" messages until someone provides you with a clue.

    5. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      You cannot distribute a package under the GPL unless you allow free access to its source files as well.

      That's well documented in the GPL itself.

      That said, the above is under the ZLIB license, not GPL.

      Also, if you're the Copyright holder, you can release your Betas under a tighter license anyway. You can do whatever you like as the Copyright holder.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    6. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He wouldn't even have to do (c), since he is the copyright holder.

    7. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      2 years ago, when it was .4, the source was not available and the FAQ read quite differently. I'm sure today was the first time you every bothered to visit the homepage. What kind of little penis man cries over a UID? lol

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    8. Re:Not Open Source, GPL of unfinished source by julesh · · Score: 1

      If you're right, he's still in the clear. You can do whatever you want with your own code, even if you have released it under the GPL.

  25. why 99% of open source engines fail... by Aardappel · · Score: 1

    Look at engines that actually get used for game projects in the commercial world: they are GAME engines, with a proven game for it, and a toolchain. Nobody ever licenses a naked engine, as in just a set of APIs. For a modern game, something that can render flashy graphics is only a small fraction of all the code involved.

  26. Crystal Space 3D by myspys · · Score: 5, Informative

    Another engine that is open source (LGPL) and possibly a bit more mature than Irrlicht is Crystal Space 3D.

    From the about us-blurb "Crystal Space is a free (LGPL) and portable 3D Game Development Kit written in C++. It supports: true six degrees of freedom, colored lighting, lightmapped and stencil based lighting, shader support (CG, vertex programs, fragment programs, ...), mipmapping, portals, mirrors, alpha transparency, reflective surfaces, 3D sprites (frame based or with skeletal animation using cal3d animation library), procedural textures, particle systems, halos, volumetric fog, scripting (using Python, Perl, Java, or potentially other languages), 16-bit and 32-bit display support, OpenGL, and software renderer, font support (also with freetype), hierarchical transformations, physics plugin based on ODE, ... See the extensive list of features for more details."

    Read more at http://crystal.sourceforge.net/

  27. Easy To Use... by md81544 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm impressed. Downloaded the 0.7 zip file from the site (it was the only download available). I thought... well, this must be the windows version (I'm on Linux FC2), but I'll have a look at the code anyway. Unzipped it, realised it was for Win and Lin, looked for a "configure" script, couldn't find one, so just ran "make". All compiled without a single problem. Then went to the examples and compiled all those, again just with a make, everything ran OK. It seems pretty solid. I think this is going to be great.

    1. Re:Easy To Use... by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1
      I'm impressed. Downloaded the 0.7 zip file from the site (it was the only download available). I thought... well, this must be the windows version (I'm on Linux FC2), but I'll have a look at the code anyway. Unzipped it, realised it was for Win and Lin, looked for a "configure" script, couldn't find one, so just ran "make". All compiled without a single problem. Then went to the examples and compiled all those, again just with a make, everything ran OK. It seems pretty solid. I think this is going to be great.
      That just means that it is easy to compile, not easy to use.

      For it to be easy to use, the functions must be written in an intuitive manner, while at the same time allowing you to have maximum access to the API. In addition, there needs to be tutorials (or the equivalent thereof) provided so that an inexperienced person can learn how to do stuff as well.

      Currently, I'm trying to look through the source code in order to see how to do edit an existing model or mesh (e.g. to import a 3D model in a format not currently supported by Irrlicht, or perhaps to create a modeller for Irrlicht.)
  28. a gamers POV by j.a.mcguire · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm a gamer and that looks like ass. you'd have thought if the demo was capable of it, they'd have come up with something amazing to demonstrate the engine. It's impressive in what it is, an open source cross-platform engine. But it's certainly not competitive with proprietory engines.

  29. How about the VegaStrike engine? by theguyfromsaturn · · Score: 1

    Hi there, I was wondering if anybody knows how this engine compares with other OSS stuff like the CrystalSpace and particularly the VegaStrike engine. VegaStrike has the advantage of having a game already built using it. But I don't know anything about the interfaces of these toolkits and the capabilities such a bumpmapping and the like. I'd really like to hear from someone with the ability to compare the programming interfaces and features.

    --
    I like my dinosaurs feathery, and my pterosaurs hairy (or is it pycnofibery?)
  30. Re:Except that it's not open source by elleomea · · Score: 1

    "No, I cannot send you the code I am currently working on. "

    It is open source; there is no CVS repository for code currently under development, but each release contains the source code for that release in source/source.zip.

  31. Nobody will use this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bravo for the effort, but free 3D rendering engines like Irrlicht should be considered nothing more than toys. It certainly isn't revolutionary.

    (1) Their animation system absolutely sucks (animation is incredibly unsmooth, you'll be wanting to use the Cal3D animation engine instead).
    (2) Their software renderer is broken (it draws garbage on screen in one of the tech. demos).
    (3) There are a thousand corridor shooters and a hundred corridor shooter engines. And if I was to build a corridor shooter (assuming I wanted to use a 3rd-party engine), the engine had better have some damn good features to differentiate itself from the competition.

    Besides, once you know what you're doing and what you want to do (ie: you've been programming for a while), a 3D engine is really not that difficult to build.

    You still have to do programming if you use 3rd party engines, and in the long run you're going to be better off mastering the OpenGL API rather than the API of some non-standard 3D engine that nobody has heard of.

  32. Wrong. by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 1

    It is open source (under the zlib license I think) but there is no CVS access. The code you have access to and can do whatever you like with is released in snapshots because the guy does not want to field support questions about unstable code. The releases contains pretty stable code, but there is no nightlies - his choice. Still the code that he does release, you can do whatever you want with.

  33. It's the tools. by Jack+Porter · · Score: 1

    The most important feature of a commecial game engine is the maturity of its game development tools, eg an editor, scripting system, and object management system.

    If you don't have a solid development framework there's no way you can begin to make a successful game with it, because your artists can't begin to make real game content with it.

    This code has to be mature because you don't it breaking whenever an artist or designer tries to create something awesome. Typically one of the major benefits you get when you license an engine is that you're not paying your artists and designers to be idle while your programmers get the tools into a state where real GAME development can actually occur.

    Note that a development "tool" is a lot more than a "file format importer". You need somewhere to bring it all together to actually make some gameplay.

    Some components of a game engine:
    - Editor
    - Scripting system
    - Object management system
    - Physics
    - Networking
    - AI framework
    - Player input
    - Renderer

    A renderer - which is all this is - makes up less than 10% of a game engine's code. Without tools, you're never going to have anything more than some programmer-art type levels in a tech demo.

  34. Re:Portable 3D Engine by jericho4.0 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The Unreal licence cost ~$250,000 U.S. I don't know about you, but it might as well not exist for me.

    The only other reasonable option is the Torque3D engine.

    --
    "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
  35. Re:Portable 3D Engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    When your karma is so low that you post at -1, it's time to create a new account.

  36. license by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's the actual license, for those too lazy to follow the parent's link. It's very short, and allows you to do pretty much whatever you like with it:

    Copyright © 2002-2003 Nikolaus Gebhardt

    This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied warranty. In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages arising from the use of this software.

    Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose, including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it freely, subject to the following restrictions:

    • 1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must not claim that you wrote the original software. If you use this software in a product, an acknowledgment in the product documentation would be appreciated but is not required.
    • 2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not be misrepresented as being the original software.
    • 3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any source distribution.

    -jim

  37. You can't make a game with this easily. by Sludge · · Score: 1

    3D games require a significant about of art assets. Don't waste your time starting out on making a game with this or any other 3D tech unless you have a solution to this problem.

  38. rotfl by jbellis · · Score: 2, Funny

    "If PERL 6 and Parrot are able to get really mature in the next 6 months to a year"

    perl6 won't even be beta within a year.

    *cough* vapor *cough*

  39. And how does that matter? by imsabbel · · Score: 1

    You cant use those features with the available code.
    What you are saying is the typical vapourware talk.
    Maybe there is even code for realtime radiosity in the cvs, it just doesnt work... Would you then also claim that the engine supports realtime radiosity?

    --
    HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    1. Re:And how does that matter? by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 1

      I would say that the engine supports everything that is in the currently released version (right now 0.7), which is quite a lot as it is. And that code is available, you can download it, use it, modify it, fork it or whatever today.

      There is still other features to come, and so far features has kept on coming as promised, which is a good sign. And if the guy drops development, you *still* have the latest released snapshot to pick it up from, with no strings attached - as in *any* open source project. This one just happens to commit changes more rarely than some (and still more often than some that do has CVS).

      So where's your problem? If it isn't being done fast enough for you, grab a copy of the source and finish it yourself. You seem to be the kind of guy that likes to tell people to write it themeselves, so now I'm telling you. =)

  40. Re:Portable 3D Engine by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

    You only have to pay that fee if you want to sell your game. You can freely mod the game and distribute the mod. What you don't get if you go this route is the bulk of the documentation. There are some resources online and access to the game script source is free too.

    --

    -]Phreak Out[-
  41. I can't speak for mono, but... by pb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Parrot already has SDL bindings, and it should be relatively easy to add in anything that has a C API, thanks to NCI.

    As for maturing, well, I'd consider parrot to be of at least beta quality; it isn't stabilized yet, and many things are still subject to change, but on the other hand, it promises to be at least on par with (and in some cases substantially faster than) php, perl, ruby, and python as far as VM performance goes.

    However, Perl 6 I'd consider to be alpha quality; more of its design is in flux, and although there is a proof-of-concept compiler for most of it, the real one has yet to be written. Although you may or may not see Parrot get mature in the next year, I doubt you'll see Perl 6 by that time as well--although I wouldn't mind being proven wrong here. :)

    Modern games will always try to max out your CPU/GPU. That doesn't mean scripting languages don't have a place in games, but critical portions of them, or their libraries (like a 3D rendering engine, heh) will probably stay written in C/C++. However, there are already games written in scripting languages, and some of them are quite fun.

    --
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
    1. Re:I can't speak for mono, but... by Junks+Jerzey · · Score: 1

      Modern games will always try to max out your CPU/GPU.

      Not true, especially on the PC where you can't assume people have the latest and greatest CPU and graphics card. I think this would be better phrased as "games whose authors decide that maxing out your CPU/GPU is a priority will do so." That really only covers a handful of games. Even DOOM 3 doesn't max out a 3GHz Pentium 4 with a Radeom 9800. (Yes, it has crazy settings that look 2% better and saturate the system bus, but turn them off and you're fine.)

    2. Re:I can't speak for mono, but... by pb · · Score: 1

      It depends. You might be able to run the latest/greatest game on your hardware, but then you can always up the resolution, and crank up the detail settings... :)

      --
      pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
  42. Re:Portable 3D Engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    For my game project we're considering using tv3d (http://truevision3d.com) which is actually cheaper than torque (it's $150 for a single project -- torque is about that price, but the price goes a lot higher if you start making serious money).

    Does anyone have any thoughts about tv3d? Check out the features of the next version (new version), they look pretty nice for what I'm trying to do.

  43. Let me know when they release version 1.0 or later by fitten · · Score: 1

    When they get to where they release 1.0, then it will be interesting. Until then, it is just another project that may or may not produce anything beneficial.

    I hope they aren't like most OSS projects, which never have the backbone to release a version 1.0 for fear of being accountable for what they produced. Until then, it is version 0.99.999.99.9.999.99.999 (beta)

  44. Picture Quality... by i-Chaos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have been following the releases of Irrlicht because I've been looking for a good 3D Engine that's easy to use. The only problem that I've found with the Irrlicht Engine is that things just don't look so good, and have a gritty look to them. I don't know what is the problem, but I haven't seen any "nice" renders of anything using Irrlicht yet. Nothing production quality, anyway.

    --
    ...I am proof that intelligent beings are not always intelligent...
    1. Re:Picture Quality... by wazlaf · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't understand all the excitement about Irrlicht - wile it is surely an OK 3D Engine, it lags just so much behind in terms of what's possible with current 3D Hardware. If you are looking for something more advanced, have a look at OGRE. It does decent stencil shadows, is also independent of the underlying rendering API and it is used in many commercial and open source games.

    2. Re:Picture Quality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ogre is also a big, complicated mess, with lots of dependancies and a stunning lack of useful documentation.

    3. Re:Picture Quality... by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      "If you are looking for something more advanced, have a look at OGRE."

      Irrlicht as at least one advantage: what it does just works. The same can't be said for OGRE.

      This isn't a commentary on the relative power of the two engines. For the sake of argument, I will stipulate that OGRE is light years more advanced than Irrlicht.

      I downloaded Irrlicht and ran the technology demo. It just worked and gave me a good benchmark of what it could do. It's library was precompiled for Linux, so I didn't have to bother with that step just to run the technology demo.

      As a 3D neophyte (my biggest accomplishment to date is writing a highly simplistic and basic 3D software renderer for very simple geometric objects), this was impressive. It was a relatively small download, too.

      I was able to compile the other examples with a simple make in each directory. It was very easy, something the developer(s) did very well.

      I wanted to run the OGRE technology demo, but there was no Linux precompiled binary. Not that big a deal, as I've been developing on Linux since the mid 90's. I grabbed the source and ran "./configure", which terminated by telling me to install DevIL (an imaging library).

      So I run off to the DevIL website, and download it. Running its configure script bombs saying that it has a bad interpreter (which every other configure script in the known universe seems to handle just fine).

      Then I read through all of its dependencies, got frustrated (this is why I left Slackware all those years ago) and decided that I have more important things to do than fight an endless battle of library hell.

      I had tried Crystal Space a couple months ago and ran into similar issues.

      Irrlicht is simple to get and is good enough for a wide variety of 3D applications. It will probably improve faster than I do, so it will likely scale to everything I need to do.

    4. Re:Picture Quality... by julesh · · Score: 1

      So I run off to the DevIL website, and download it. Running its configure script bombs saying that it has a bad interpreter (which every other configure script in the known universe seems to handle just fine).

      Just for reference, that error often means that the script has DOS line endings, not Unix ones. Try piping it through dos2unix, then running it again.

  45. Karma whore? by p3d0 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not really. There are already several open-source 3D engines like OGRE and Crystal Space 3D.

    --
    Patrick Doyle
    I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
  46. Considering it's all done by one guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's probably good to note that Irrlicht is entirely the work of one person. Considering that, it's pretty damned good, though not neccesarily at that "professional" level. I've done some little projects with it though, and its a pretty capable graphics engine.

  47. Re:Portable 3D Engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Hey, at least the mods don't have to waste their points down-modding him.

    I still wish people had the option to post -1 or 0 for those times when you want to say something, but you know it probably isn't worth some people's time to bother with reading... That, and it can also help protect karma when your idea totally bombs. (Unless of course a bunch of people mod you to +5 funny, then down to -1 over rated.)

  48. Cross platform != platform independant by reborn · · Score: 0

    Note to poster :)

  49. REAL WORLD: Cost of Engine vs Senior Engineers by adisakp · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First of all, I work in the REAL WORLD of games development.

    That said, $250K is not cheap but it's not an exorbitant cost to license a full graphics engine and tool chain. That's the same order of magnitude cost as Criterion Renderware which many companies license (and is what we use at Midway Games for nearly all of our games including the upcoming Mortal Kombat 6). Of course, with Renderware you can license just the engine (without the tools like Renderware Studio / Physics) or the additional packages you like rather than everything and save some $$$.

    You just have to put it in perspective that the engine license typically cost less than 2-3 Senior Engineers for a year. Plus most teams only have a couple really senior graphics guys and they tend to also be the senior system level guys as well. Do you want those guys stuck writing the graphics engine and supporting it for the whole game or do you want them making a better game?

    1. Re:REAL WORLD: Cost of Engine vs Senior Engineers by adisakp · · Score: 1

      BTW, I'd also like to point out that the $250K engines are marketed towards a very different audience than most Slashdot readers. The guys who use these engines want to make the top hits that are going to SELL MILLIONS of units and make tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars.

      Slashdotters seem to be mostly interested in a engine they can use to make they can give away for free and "share" with the world.

    2. Re:REAL WORLD: Cost of Engine vs Senior Engineers by jericho4.0 · · Score: 1
      Well, yeah /. likes free (and cheap), and 'sharing', you make it sound like a bad thing. Had you read the site before you signed up? Congrats on your 'real world' job. Is it new? I too work in the 'real world', like most people I know, but not in game development. I'm guessing if you were not working in the game industry, you wouldn't be working with $$$ engines, either.

      I've never had the chance to work with a modern commercial engine, so I don't know how they compare, but I'm grateful for things like Torque3D and Irricht.

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
  50. Freshmeat is that you? by crivens · · Score: 1

    Freshmeat is that you?

    I hope they improved the renderer, as it used to have poor performance and poor visual quality.

  51. Open gameart format by tuxontour · · Score: 1

    In addition to some extensive examples or maybe even whole games that show the potential of a game engine, I think that we need a portable open source gameart format. It should contain for example the visibile/audible information, the basic physics and maybe the artificial intelligence of a gameobject. If done properly it could be portable between game engines and platforms.
    With such an exchange format and a useful open art license there will be many freely available gameobjects of good quality. This would greatly simplify the development of good open source games.
    Of cource a good modeler for that format that is acceptable for artists would help too.

  52. OGRE3D by ggambett · · Score: 4, Informative

    Our current project uses OGRE (http://www.ogre3d.org). We evaluated Irrlicht, CrystalSpace and others, which are good, but you defintely want to take a look at OGRE.

    OGRE doesn't try to be a game engine - just an Object-oriented Graphics Rendering Engine. It can be easily integrated with other libraries to create a complete game framework - ODE for physics is a quite popular choice.

    OGRE itself focuses on a clean and well designed API, while other engines are just hacks over hacks. It also has a very knowledgeable community and a very involved project leader.

  53. this isn't a GAME engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    dumbass.

  54. Irrlicht Desktop? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1


    "Powerful, customizeable and easy to use 2D GUI System with Buttons, Lists, Edit boxes, ..
    2D drawing functions like alpha blending, color key based blitting, font drawing and mixing 3D with 2D graphics."


    Irrlicht offers a GUI toolkit. How about a window manager, so we can finally have realtime 2D objects like documents, lists, pictures and component GUIs, in a 3D space (not just Z-buffered)? I'd love to be able to stack tabbed windows in bundles, and turn them on their side (rotating around the Y axis), using the spatial operations I use in my physical office to organize my virtual desktop.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  55. Yeah, that is a gamer's POV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    A gamer doesn't necessarily know the difference between engine capabilities and art assets. A gamer's POV is the view of the end consumer, and it isn't pleased by anything but a polished product.

    You haven't seen many great engines before the art goes in. If you stuck the models he's using and the textures and the land into Unreal 2004, you'd still have something that looks like ass. Many Unreal 2kx mods do look pretty bad.

    " I'm a gamer and that looks like ass. you'd have thought if the demo was capable of it, they'd have come up with something amazing to demonstrate the engine."

    Who are they, white man? There's just the one guy. He's a programmer, not an artist. He's busy programming so he just has models and textures sufficient to test that various effects *work*. Often it's actually better if the test models are ugly because then it's more obvious how the shading effects are being applied.

    If the coding is solid, if the API is good, if the speed is decent, and if relatively modern features are supported, the engine is fine. Let a team of artists at it and see what happens. Epic always does this when they put out tech screenshots, but that's because a) they already have an enormously talented team of artists on staff just waiting to do things like this and b) having a gorgeous set of shots gets them investor cash or developer licenses or whatever.

  56. What's so "real-time" about it? by skids · · Score: 4, Interesting

    People have to stop abusing this term. There's nothing in that API that even qualifies it as soft-real-time. Real-time APIs have runtime estimation, deadline scheduling, and other things that have to do with managing time.

    Not that I'd expect it to be real-time given it doesn't require any real-time OS features, and not that I know anything about whether game developers can use real-time features, just a pet peeve.

    1. Re:What's so "real-time" about it? by cryoknight · · Score: 0

      Real-time, in the world of graphics, seems to mean frames-per-second instead of seconds-per-frame, while having in-game time pass at the same speed on any machine capable of running the program.

    2. Re:What's so "real-time" about it? by mabinogi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Realtime in the context of 3d rendering engines means that it's intended to be able to render a scene at a number of frames per second - thus allowing changes to the scene in Real Time - ie. immediately.
      In other words, it's a 3d Engine suitable for use in a game, or other interective software.
      The alternative is a batch renderer, where you would start it going, and then walk away.

      The phrase "Real Time" is absolutely not limited to the applications you seem to think it is, and has a wider meaning that extends completely beyond the software world...

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    3. Re:What's so "real-time" about it? by skids · · Score: 1

      Well, that's well and good, but then what do we call a 3-D library that *does* do these things (e.g. down-res textures when they cannot be drawn at full resultion before the frame-flip deadline) "real real-time?"

      I think the term we should be using for this sort of thing is "full-motion", and leave "real-time" for the definition us "software world" folks expect it to have.

    4. Re:What's so "real-time" about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      call them whatever the hell you like.

      The english term Real Time has a broader meaning than what you want it to mean, deal with it.

    5. Re:What's so "real-time" about it? by LadyLucky · · Score: 1
      Real time has multiple uses. For example, my bank can display my bank account information 'real-time', which does not mean OS scheduling, it means if I use my debit card then go home and have a look, the update will be there.

      Real time depends completely on context, even within the computers.

      --
      dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
    6. Re:What's so "real-time" about it? by skids · · Score: 1

      My point is, in this context, the distinction should be made. This is a product aimed at developers, not end users, and a product that could very easily come in a "real-time" (computer science definition) flavor. This is exactly the area in which these terms apply. In order to distinguish between "full-motion" and actual "real-time" it's important in this case not to mince terms.

  57. Game Engine Tier by Tony+Freakin+Twist · · Score: 1

    could be written right on top.

    however, game engines are a bit harder to create than 3d engines - it's like developing a programming language vs. creating an industry specific api.

    the great thing here, though, is that the project's begun as os, so finding a team to do the game engine should be a natural evolution.

  58. Importance of Developer Community by Mawen · · Score: 1

    I almost forgot... One of the best features of OGRE is its awesome developer forum. Ogre has one of the most mature, professional, and helpful developer communities around.


    Even though I'm not involved in all the collaborative projects, it is a breath of fresh air to see intelligent people working together to produce awesome features, like paging scene managers, modular game frameworks (making use of OpenAL, FMod, ODE, etc), and CrazyEddie's GUI, which may end up being one of the best performant and most feature-filled GUIs for any 3D environment. (Note: CEGUI won't just be for Ogre.)



    1. Re:Importance of Developer Community by baxissimo · · Score: 1

      What's so great about CrazyEddie's GUI? There's not even a screenshot link on the home page for me to be able to see if I care to learn more or not. Are there screenshots buried somewhere on the web site?

    2. Re:Importance of Developer Community by KrackHouse · · Score: 1

      Good point, I actually downloaded the windows binaries and ran it to see how it looked, they need screenshots!

      --
      What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
      http://houndwire.com
  59. The Nebula Device by vivarin · · Score: 1

    Open source, used in a commercial game. Check it out:

    http://www.radonlabs.de/nebula.html

  60. Well, it's not hardware by RichardX · · Score: 1

    ..but how does raytraced Quake 3 grab you?

    --
    Curiosity was framed. Ignorance killed the cat.
    1. Re:Well, it's not hardware by elFarto+the+2nd · · Score: 1

      I'm more a fan of http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~morfiel/oasen/

      Regards
      elFarto
  61. Re:How does this compare... to line TENEBRAE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We allready have a nice open source engine with "state-of-the-art" features...
    just have a look at http://www.tenebrae2.com/

    i would guess its the best we have even though its based on quake1

  62. IF ONES PLAYS WITH SH!T, ONE MAKES SH!T by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i've worked with OSS engines for years.
    check out ogre3d.org or nebuladevice.sf.net. wonderfully eay to develop for, and in my professional experience, easier that developing on the bones of our US$420,000 quake3 licensed engine.

    bigcathead

    1. Re:IF ONES PLAYS WITH SH!T, ONE MAKES SH!T by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And here are the links that the parent AC was to lazy to make:

      OGRE

      The Nebula Device

  63. This liscensce needs some work by logicnazi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unfortunatly, it sounds as if this is incompatible with the GPL. I know it is a small sounding issue but the requirement that this notice cannot be removed or altered is an 'additional requirement' and disallowed by the GPL. It is just this sort of minor issue that is causing the problems between GPL and the...apache liscense (I think this is the right one).

    If someone on the project is reading this may I suggest that the lisecensce be changed to add an additional clause. This additional clause would allow any liscensee the power to re-lisecence the source code under the GPL instead of this liscensce.

    Sure, while it is *possible* this would cause a loss of attribution it is unlikely. A commercial project might have reasons to hide the origin of their code but a GPLed project has no motivation to lie and say their code didn't come from the community. Furthermore, it would be a big help to people trying to make GPLed games.

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    1. Re:This liscensce needs some work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why not just release their games under this license? really, pull the GPL outta your ass.

    2. Re:This liscensce needs some work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The FSF says the zlib license is GPL compatible, and they should know.

    3. Re:This liscensce needs some work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I know it is a small sounding issue but the requirement that this notice cannot be removed or altered is an 'additional requirement' and disallowed by the GPL.

      Doesn't the GPL have the same requirement, that the license cannot be modified or removed?

    4. Re:This liscensce needs some work by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      Who cares?

      I'm not being an ass, I really want to know what difference it makes if this is released under a non-GPL license. Is it because of the clause that says software that links to GPL libraries must be GPL? I'm not that familiar with the issues concerning libraries.

      Anybody willing to educate me?

    5. Re:This liscensce needs some work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not - if you think for a moment, you will notice that GPL has a similar requirement.

    6. Re:This liscensce needs some work by julesh · · Score: 1

      It's because of the clause in the GPL which effectively states that anything you distribute under the GPL you have to provide the source code for, under the GPL, on request. The only exclusions are "components that are normally supplied with the operating system or compiler".

      So, if a library isn't "GPL compatible", you can't use it in a GPL project.

  64. Thank you Captain Obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So you actually need like artwork and graphics and stuff to make a game? Incredible! You'll be telling me I need sounds and tunes to make the soundtrack next. What about code, is that important too?

    Stunning insights like this are the reason I read Slashdot.

  65. looking good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should put Carmack on the team

  66. Another one?? by Saville · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are quite a few 3d engines out there. The biggest I guess are Crystal Space 3D, Genesis3D, OGRE, Toque (Tribes2), Quake and Quake II. Of course there are others to fill certin niches like Yeti or ExoEngine and libraries like DevLib and G3D for those who want to write their own engine, but don't feel like they need to implement yet another file loader. I'm not sure why 0.7 of Irrlicht was worth mentioning on /. as it is isn't clear what its roll is compared to those other engines.

    I was at Siggraph 2004 and attended a round table on "how will you (game developers) feed next generation games". The problem is going from a Playstation1 to Playstation2 many developers found games now took roughly 2 to 3x the man years to create. But profits didn't really go up that much to compensate. This has happened every console generation and will happen again with the up coming generation. PC games don't have clear generations, but the same concept applies.

    The main ideas were to reuse content. For example if you're making a Matrix game, get the 3d models from the movie instead of making your own and start from there. Or if you're making a port try to reuse as much as possible. Future games will have a lot of computer generated stuff which is artist guided instead of artist created so that one artist creates a forest instead of creating a bunch of leafs on a single tree.

    A big surprise to me was open source wasn't mentioned until somebody asked. A company like id will implement something cool like unified lighting for all objects first, but a year later everybody has their own implementation of it. Every year has something like this that gets the anual lens flare award; colour lighting, ground clutter, normal mapping, rag doll physics, etc. Yawn. Every company spends all this time re-implementing the exact same technology. All developers can read the same papers from Siggraph, Eurographics, or GDC and then discuss them on the same mailing lists so there is plenty of open sharing happening already. So I was surprised to hear none of the guys at the round table thought open source would really be useful to help save them money in the future other than for rather basic things like zlib, lua, etc.

    It sure would be nice to see some engines reach commercial quality to used in some good games instead of getting more and more re-implementations of the foundation, which /. apparently is finds interesting. Once it happens there will be a huge snow ball effect where it picks up a LOT of developer attention. Maybe in five years one of the existing engines will reach a level of maturity that it can start to be really used and then in another ten we'll see it catching on like GNU/Linux is now?

    1. Re:Another one?? by Mskpath3 · · Score: 1
      The reason you shouldn't be surprised is that the engine is only the tip of the iceberg. You need to have a huge, professionally supported toolchain and the hordes of artists to feed it.

      If you break down the cost of developing a game, it's nearly all salaries. And if you look at the cost of the salary of the 2-3 (or less) 'engine' programmers, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the 75 artists pumping out art.

      What you will see in = 10 years, is DirectEngine from Microsoft. It won't be open source, but it'll be free, and it'll have elite level support and stability, and it'll have the ears of hardware developers. That's the kind of 'open source' you can expect to see catch on in the future, IMO.

  67. Re:Portable 3D Engine by jericho4.0 · · Score: 1

    You don't pay $250,000 for the right to sell a mod to UT. What you get is the source code, free for you to do anything you want with it except sell it. This is far more flexible than UnrealScript could ever be.

    --
    "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
  68. Re:Portable 3D Engine by Mskpath3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    $250k is a pittance in terms of a modern game budget. No, it's not accessible to the average joe programmer. But to a project looking to drop $15+ million on a 3+ year project, if the engine provides what you need and has solid support, it's a no brainer.

  69. Another one??-Blender. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know you wrote all that and forgot the game engine in Blender.

  70. What about the tenebrae engine? by CurbyKirby · · Score: 1

    More info at http://tenebrae2.com/ and pretties at http://tenebrae2.com/tb2_screenshots.html

    For OSX, there's a game called tenebrae quake http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/ 17584 that uses a new renderer with quake data files (not included).

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    "Extra Anus Kills Four-Legged Chick" -- Headline
  71. been using for a while... by buhatkj · · Score: 1

    Ive been using irrlicht for nearly a year now, and it is definitely the easiest to use 3d engine i've ever worked with. I have also tried many versions of ogre, crystal space, neoengine, and even purple#. i love working with irrlicht, and as many have mentioned, what it needs most is a fully featured game engine built with it, so that precisely what i'm trying to do(in my limited free time....) many other people are doing this also, but there is some disagreement in the irrlicht community about whether to start adding features like sound, ai physics etc to irrlicht...or to keep it a pure 3d-only engine. anybody who likes irrlicht, should definitely contribute to irrlichtNX, because from 0.7 on, niko will be using CVS(prolly irrlichtNX's CVS) along with the rest of us. good things happening on the horizon for Irrlicht :-)

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    sometimes, i wonder if i'm the only conservative on teh intarweb. ah well, back to mah hogs and warmongerin'....
  72. Hm ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    I think they need to change the name. A product which sounds like "ear-licked" doesn't sound like it will become too popular.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    1. Re:Hm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They actually got a .wav file with the right pronounciation in the FAQ.

  73. I like the name: Irrlicht by G�tz · · Score: 1

    The name is nice for a 3D project, translated to English it means will-o'-the-wisp, but it's all explained in the FAQ, including a wave file to explain the pronounciation (although featuring an Austrian accent).

  74. Fast? by TwistedSpring · · Score: 1

    I tried the demonstation program. It runs at 75fps until the female runner and jumper are displayed, then it drops down to around 35. Curiously, the character meshes seem to be antialiased and run at 10fps, when the world is not antialiased and runs at about 30-40 FPS when the characters are displayed.

    There are stencil buffer bugs when the shadows of the character meshes are hidden behind a partical effect such as the flames.

    I would not call this engine "fast" from the demo. Sure, the flyby ran at 75fps but the world geometry was extremely simple, and I would have expected at least 70-100fps from that without vsync enabled. I can imagine that when character meshes and moving brushes are added this thing will crawl. I imagine this is because they strive for cross-platform portability on the processor side of things and thus (I'm guessing) there's no optimizations (MMX/SSE/SSE2 assembler etc) in the matrix transforms. Someone may want to correct me on that one since I havent looked at the source.

    A good try, but Just Another 3D Engine for now.

    1. Re:Fast? by TwistedSpring · · Score: 1

      They also state in the demonstration program that the software renderer would not be fast enough to run the demo and thus is disabled. I dispute that. A software renderer should be fast enough to do what that demo does considering the world detail. Also, one of the features of the software renderer is that it has a z-buffer. I wouldn't say that this is a feature, it's more of a necessity.

  75. where are the java bindings? by m05 · · Score: 1

    i cant find a word about the java bindings on their site. did anyone find them? it would be interesting.

    1. Re:where are the java bindings? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      check out: https://sourceforge.net/projects/jirr/
      and be sure to try google next time !

    2. Re:where are the java bindings? by julesh · · Score: 1

      I didn't find any Java bindings, but the Python binding I found only allowed access to about 10% of the features exposed by the C++ library.

      But the .NET bindings are included in the download, and do look like they're at least approximately complete, which is nice.

  76. not all by CaptainPinko · · Score: 1

    I've never seen Civ 3 really eat into my CPU cycles. I assume the same would be said for any game that doesn't involve 3D. Not all modern games involve 3D, most of the best ones don't. Unfortunatley, the most popular do.

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    Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.