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HD-DVD Wins Support of 4 Studios
An anonymous reader writes "Looks like HD-DVD has won the latest round in the Blu-ray/HD-DVD format war. Toshiba announced today that 4 major studios (Warner,Paramount,Universal, and New Line) have endorsed the HD-DVD format. Toshiba also said it will use AACS for content protection, which is basically just CSS with better crypto & no ability to recover from security failures."
Since both HD-DVD and blu-ray are using the same blue lasers, will this 'war' eventually turn out to be HD/BR-DVD similar to the DVD+/-R standards.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
A guy using a camcorder while watching his TV
Someone plugging in the composite video to a capture card
Brute Force Attack
To stop me from buying your DVDs
Alginate the Movie Industry
Does anyone know?
It seemed like blu-ray was doing so well, and that maybe the winner would be clear cut and consumers wouldnt have to put up with this 2-format crap. Damn you competition, damn you!
That instead of competition leading to advancements and improvements for the consumer, it's more often competition AGAINST fair USE for the consumer.
Don't park drunk, accidents cause people.
"The AACS Licensing Authority has proposed the use of subset-difference trees with AES encryption, which provides strong player revocation and key management, but does not include system renewability. Cryptography Research has proposed Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM), which provides system renewability and forensic marking, but does not include key management. A complete solution that includes strong key management and a well-designed security virtual machine is crucial; an incomplete approach provides little or no value because attackers will simply exploit the missing links."
Yeah, tell ya what, how about i *not* ever buy any of this and you ditch that idea. Sound good?
Seriously. HDTV is on its way to taking over whether the market likes it or not; I can live with it, I acknowledge its advantages, I just wish that capitalism had been allowed to govern its adoption instead of Congress.
At least the need for a HD-DVD format is consumer-driven. I forget whether this particular format is compatible with existing DVD players or not, though.
But what's next? Is there even industry talk about a post-HDTV video format? 3D video, maybe? Lossless video compression? What will the industry R&D teams do once they've got HD-DVD out the door and China's manufacturing players for US$30 again?
or at least the monkey poo fight we will see in the next few years. Anyone know which one the porn industry is backing? I'll put my money on that format.
The evil mind is capable of almost anything.
getting an article from a desi website. The US nerd gods will be there shortly to punish you. ;)
Even though this will help HD in the fight against Blue-Ray, it certainly will not win the format war.
Calm down people, its a religion not an operating system.
Just a reminder: Both HD-DVD and Blu-ray now require the implementation of Windows Media 9 (now VC-9, or VC-1 depending on who you ask). This means that anyone using a computer to play DVDs may be subject to Microsoft licensing restrictions. Current DVDs use MPEG2 and the there doesn't seem to be much of a problem with non-profit use of it. I don't know that Microsoft is going to be so benevolent. Have they made any statements about open-source usage? They do seem to be a bit down on that lately.
Also, anyone know how the decision is made to encode a DVD using MPEG2, MPEG4 or WM9?
Just wait a month and DVD Don will post a bypass to the new encryption.
The mandate makes absolutely no requirement that broadcasts be HD (High Def) - only that they stop using analog transmission and go to digital. The FCC's motiviation is to get a lot of spectum back, and MPAA/broadcasters motiviation is they get the 'do not copy' concept.
While I wouldnt mind if the spectrum was freed so that there could be some unlicensed bands to enable 802.11 style equipment for consumer use, I'm sure licenses for the newly freed TV bands will be auctioned off to megacorps instead. I'm just hoping that they dont just sit on them to prevent competition for high speed services.
Why do so many people confuse High Def and Digital - they are *NOT* the same thing, nor do they always go hand in hand.
You *CAN* broadcast HighDef in analog, and you *CAN* broadcast digital, and still be using standard definition (and if stations are forced go digital, it isnt all that likely that they will switch to HighDef)
I predict in 10 years you'll see 3rd-world pirates using fully-digital screen-scrapers to bypass otherwise-unbreakable encryption.
Scrape. Store. Burn. Sell on the street corners.
The studios will never "win," they'll only be able to manage their losses.
In the USA, it will be less of a problem as most middle-class people move to a subscription model, where they can watch what they want when they want to for a fixed monthly fee. This will take away most people's economic incentive to buy bootleg copies.
Sure, you'll still have some domestic piracy, but if the studios price things correctly, it will be drawfed by legitimate users.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
From TFA:
Revocation can help contain some attacks by preventing future titles from playing on a pre-chosen set of players. For example, if studios learn that pirates have hacked a player with a specific serial number, revocation makes it possible to author future titles so they will never play on that player.
So just because you own a DVD player that was hacked, you won't be able to play future DVDs? That's a load of crap.
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
Has anyone else had problems with the AACS crack not playing the first minute of a film?
They play fine on my HD-DVD player, but when I rip it, it's missing a bit at the start. It's not always a minute, but more than 30 seconds are missing every time.
Are there any other cracks around other than the first one that came out? I hope this gets fixed soon.
I rarely take the time to criticize a Slashdot editor, but this posting is terribly confusing.
Which is it?
Is the format using "CSS with stronger encryption" in other words...once some company makes a mistake and puts the key in the clear (like Xing did with the original CSS key) then it's game over, have a field day with HD content...
Or is it some kind of improved system that uses any of the principles in the cryptography.com article? The stuff in that article would scare the pants off anyone who believes in fair use rights and using any tactics necessary to secure them. Thankfully, it sounds like this articles is merely pointing out the dream and there doesn't exist such a magic bullet.
But judging by the replies to this articles, it already looks like people are bemoaning and wailing the lost of fair use rights thanks to this unbelievably draconiam new system.
My reading leads me to believe that we should all be very very quiet, wait for HD to reach a nice sizeable market penetration, then wait for the key to appear and bring about DeCSS round II.
-JoeShmoe
.
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
arent sony's formats always more expensive and proprietary instead of standards? e.g. Compact Flash vs the Memory Stick, or thier use of Atrac.
:)
its fine to use your own formats, but against standards and cheaper ways is just foolish.
sony could always go with blu-ray in the next gen console (ps2 was the cheapest dvd player in japan). and make a split like vhs/betamax, dvd/divx (that was so stupid), dvd-r vs dvd+r and countless others.
i just hope, whoever wins, that the outcome is cheaper price, easy to manufacture, good quality, and easy to crack/non-existant encryption
By deciding to split the market asunder, the companies that cannot agree on one standard are instead creating a huge group of people that will just say "screw it", not buy either player, and download rips of HD-DVD/Blu-Ray DVD's that they can play on a computer hooked to the TV (becoming more common and certainly more comon in a year or two).
Who is going to buy either kind of player when there's such an open question as to which will succeed?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Unfortunately, pirates will attack high-definition disc formats.
It should be noted that the DVD content scrambling system failed not under the attack of pirates but due to legal owners of encrypted media striving to play them on an open source operating system. I think there's a lesson to be learned from that.
BRD has the format war won long ago.
But, hey, nock yourself out, and pick up a HD-DVD player. Maybe you can ebay it someday.
That article from cryptography.com, should it's seggestions come to pass, would prevent me from making copies of my discs so that my 2 year old wouldn't trash the originals. It would even prevent me from ripping all discs to a server, and making a special remote interface for her.
;-) (On a side note, I was impressed/suprised to find out that it will function just fine with two discs in the player at once.)
What's most interesting is that "real" pirates (pressing discs for mass distribution) would likely be able to circumvent all these measures with a bit-accurate re-press. *shrug* At least we know who the industry is really worried about when they talk about pirates...you and me.
BTW, yes, my 2 year old knows how to load a DVD player, and I print the discs so she knows which is which. I reauthor them so that the movie starts immediately without user interaction. I haven't figured out how to make her understand that the top-loading CD player in her room won't play three discs stacked like records, though.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Does this mean people will have to upgrade their current DVD players/drives to use this new DVD technology?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
My favorite quote from the last link in the summary (on format security) would have to be the following:
"In the U.S., the Digital Millennium Copyright Act prohibits unauthorized circumvention. Outside the U.S., however, many jurisdictions only have conventional copyright laws that only protect creative works. Normal decryption keys do not include any obvious creative element."
Now, jumping to the Constitution ("To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries") it is not clear that copyright must *only* be granted to works with "obvious creative element." But I liked the fact that the above comment on future security requirements acknowledged what seems to be much of Slashdot (and the tech community's) beef with copyrighting algorithms and computer software, but from the assumption that it's a GOOD thing, rather than a BAD thing.
Just an example of how you can agree on the issue while still having mutually exclusive views on the sollution.
-Trillian
the encryption is as powerful as they claim it to be, there will always be someone who breaks it.
o/~ Join us now and share the software
For computer use, WHO CARES which format gets adopted? Personally, I'd go for the one that lasts longer and has better error recovery (ie, I don't have to worry about my 50G of data going bad too quickly).
But for the consumer movie market, I'm just about ready to give up on this whole thing. One has to ask: do you want to keep buying movies over and over as a new format comes out? VHS? Then DVD? Then Blu-Ray? We keep updating... jumping as a new format comes out. And part of the reason they keep coming out with a new format (outside of the obvious marketing benefits listed above... resale of the same art again and again) is to override pirating concerns.
I give up. You want control? Great. Give me video on demand so I can watch what I want when I want and pay a nominal fee to do so. Then they can upgrade the quality of the copy "behind the scenes" to their heart's content.
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
More detailed article in the Wall Street Journal. Note that the article states that this deal is non-exclusive. There is nothing preventing these studios from also announcing support for Blu-ray in future.
Studios Strike HD-DVD Deals For Holiday 2005
By SARAH MCBRIDE and PHRED DVORAK
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
November 29, 2004; Page B1
With holiday shoppers gobbling up millions of popular DVDs over the weekend, Toshiba Corp. and three major movie studios are expected Monday to announce plans to make new high-definition DVDs available by Christmas 2005.
According to people familiar with the matter, the studios -- including Viacom Inc.'s Paramount, General Electric Co.'s Universal Studios, and Time Warner Inc.'s Warner Bros. -- are planning to release up to two dozen titles each in time for next year's holiday season in the so-called HD-DVD format that is backed by a group of Toshiba-led partners.
The move shows that Hollywood is getting serious about moving ahead with the "next generation" DVD format, which it so far has been reluctant to embrace. The new discs promise super-sharp resolution and bonus interaction features when played on high-definition televisions and via new high-definition DVD players. But the discs are especially appealing to the studios because they use super-secure copy protection that makes them less vulnerable to piracy than today's easily copied standard DVDs.
Today's announcement gives the Toshiba group a leg up, for the time being, in a burgeoning format war over the next-generation of DVDs. Sony Corp. has spearheaded a rival technology called Blu-ray, which it is pushing hard in part because its technology for the current generation of DVDs mostly lost out to Toshiba's -- with very little Sony technology winding up in today's standard DVDs. And in the early 1980s, its Betamax technology for videocasettes lost out to Victor Co. of Japan Ltd.'s VHS format.
Hoping to avoid another failure, Sony has been aggressively lining up partners for its Blu-ray format. At this point, the earliest that movies could be issued in the Blu-ray format would be 2006. Still, Blu-ray has far more manufacturers and consumer-electronics partners on board than the Toshiba group. And Blu-ray discs can hold far more material than HD DVD, allowing studios that distribute TV shows, for example, to pack more episodes on a single disc, or to throw in more bonus features.
Despite today's announcement by Toshiba, Blu-ray remains a strong contender. Firmly in its camp: Sony's powerhouse Columbia Pictures, along with the studio it is in the process of acquiring, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc. And the deals Toshiba is making with studios aren't exclusive -- the same studios could also make software deals with Blu-ray.
All studios are anxious to avoid another Betamax/VHS-style format war, however, because they don't want to confuse consumers by releasing their movies in many similar-looking disc formats -- or annoy them if the format they choose is off the market in a couple of years. Studio executives say it would be best if one technology scored a clear win over the other or if the two camps could compromise so both new versions could play on the same player.
Although millions of Americans have yet to buy even a standard DVD player, Hollywood has been plotting the next generation of DVD for years. Until recently, studios figured they should delay the next generation for as long as they could, maximizing sales in the current format. But the studios have been speeding up their plans lately as sales of standard DVD players have tapered off. Amid signs that piracy is cutting into sales far more than predicted, the studios also reason that they should move more quickly toward the new technology because of its superior antipiracy features.
Thus, the studios want to get started making next-generation DVD a hot product for next Christmas and beyond. Such efforts are typically slow to bulid; the first year DVD players came out,
1)
HDTV != play on my tv
DTV != play on my tv
therefor HDTV=DTV
2)
RIGHT$("HDTV",3)="DTV", the H is irrelevant, and only used by geeks
3)
Everybody pumped up HDTV for its digital basis, and the marketers knew that digital sounded better than analog to consumers. When broadcasters (incl satellite and cable) realized that "digital" was a more powerful a marketing tool then "high definition" (shorter, more understandable), and that they could provide marginal-quality, but acceptable, digital signals with less effort/money and higher ROI, it was just a CEO stamp away from throwing HD out the window and overnight the mantra "HDTV is coming" to "Digital TV is here."
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
There was a big leap between VHS and DVD that really added to the migration and the adoption of DVD by the consumer.
My guess is that HD-DVD and Blu-ray will go the way of Minidisc. They don't add anything remotely interresting for the average consumer. The average consumer is still buying Full-Screen edition of the movies. They won't put any money on those new formats any time soon.
Unless they pull the plug on the DVD format. Which won't happen anytime soon.
The question-and-answer section on this page are certainly informative. It looks like the security technology will be self-updating so that after a particular player's key is gained and resultant piracy detected, future HD-DVDs will not play on that model.
There are a lot of states SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS to address that problem.
However, at no point (that I could detect) does the Q&A bring up a SYSTEM REQUIREMENT for the following scenario: What happens to legitimate purchasers of a given player that gets hacked, and therefore locked out, by somebody else?
In other words, is the locking out of particular players specific to a particular player (by serial number or whatever) thereby locking out only one person, or does the entire set of like models get locked out thereby locking out everyone who purchased that model?
Sure. It'll just be a firmware patch automatically downloaded to your DVD player through the, um, power cord by, um, the Department Of... uh... The Interior.
--- Ban humanity.
That's DVD Jon's hi-definition brother.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
By the time this format is the standard, your kid will be, like, twelve or something. :)
--- Ban humanity.
http://www.cryptography.com/technology/spdc
This sounds like the software they put on some audio CD's that would autorun and silently install itself preventing you from copying the CD. And, let's not forget we defeated that by pushing the shift key, no doubt the fix for this will be somewhat more complicated than that, but probably not by much.
HD DVD has no significant features that are of value to me. Instead of focusing on new technologies, perhaps you should divert your precious R&D resources to providing better content.
With love,
The Consumer
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
Now we can only hope M$ does not fuck it up like they did with old MPEG-4 format.
I started at that for a full twenty seconds thinking, "What the hell kind of crypto is involved with cascading stylesheets?"
--- Ban humanity.
In 10 years, you'll either be able to d/l it through the either, or make a "crippled" DVD that only works on PCs that can verify your subscription as you watch it.
Alternatively, you'll be able to burn a time-bombed or player-specific version, one that will work FOR 2 DAYS ONLY or one that will work ON YOUR LAPTOP ONLY.
Of course, someday, they'll just beam it straight into your head complete with commercials, a la Futurama.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
SPDC and Format Security
Formats with Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) solve this problem by enabling discs to carry their own security software that runs in a tiny security interpreter (VM) in each player. This software can identify and correct security problems in the player, re-establishing secure playback without revoking legitimate users' players. This capability is called system renewability or true renewability.
Who thought this up? Emulation of a player's security VM in software would eliminate the renewability of the security anyway, just as a comprimised key would. You'd have to resort to revoking the ability of a certain hacked or emulated VM to decrypt the content anyway.
This whole thing is asinine. With the right equipment you can make bit-for-bit copies of CSS-protected DVD's, thus "pirating" them withouth having to break any security whatsoever. It would be reasonable to assume this may be possible with any HD disc format as well. With any HD player, unless you integrate the codec processor into the security processor, you can probably build some hardware to get at the decrypted datastream too (169time.com does this type of hack).
DirecTV and digital cable and all that use this same model, only this replaces the smartcard with essentially a more limited type of smartcard on each disc. The model works with directv because to hack it you must be able to decrypt the live stream for immediate viewing. With a DVD this is not the case - you only need to be able to decrypt it once then distribute the decrypted copy. Only one person need have a hacked piece of hardware to accomplish this. This is where the true "priacy" is taking place anyawy. All this new junk does is just make players more expensive and discs harder to watch.
"Revocation can help contain some attacks by preventing future titles from playing on a pre-chosen set of players. For example, if studios learn that pirates have hacked a player with a specific serial number, revocation makes it possible to author future titles so they will never play on that player."
Yeah, so they can one by one stop the hackers, who can just spoof the serial number on their computer. And of course $30 HD-DVD players will come about.
Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
Anyone who thinks giving Microsoft the keys to any digital content is anywhere in the same universe as a good idea is either totally brain dead or on the Redmond payroll - and those two are not mutually exclusive.
Either you get your movies through the ether, or you don't.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
How many times are we going to be forced to buy Star Wars? Laser Disk, VHS twice (original and updated versions), DVD, and sometime in the future HD DVD. And by that time it will be a 6 movie set. Lucas sure does dig deep in the pockets.
Hmm... so Taco uses a Dvorak (or similar) keyboard layout... (note that the 'r' and 'n' keys are vertically adjacent under the standard Dvorak layout).
A new star wars to be released on newer super duper HD quality DVD's then a BLUE version. As George Lucas would say... the force is here and damn I'm going to be rich again after the last 2 (maybe 3) movies sucked.
As to AC3, can't you just pipe the raw stream out a digital port from your computer to your sound system? If you have a surround sound system, they've already paid for a patent license to decode the AC3, so your computer can let it do the work and avoid the patent issue.
When they break $100 I'll buy a high-capacity DVD, but only if I can get a full season of my favorite TV show all on 1 platter for only $19.95.
Until then, I'll stick to my BetaMax.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Really, I watch any DVD, despite the supposed "high-quality" I should be getting everything on screen seems strangely artificial, to be honest the quality is vial, the image on-screen senseless jumps around, always the obnoxious wooden noises painfully forcing themselves through the speaker holes, and often everything on-screen is completely unintelligible to the human eye.
The the sound and picture quality is awesome though.
My mind rejects the term pirate. At what point did they run their boats up along side the MPAA and take something from them?
It's not piracy. It's something else. It may be a crime, but it's not piracy.
Imagine if you weren't allowed to use roads because a bus company complained about your driving 3 times. --skunkpussy
Didn't Read the Entire Fucking Article
Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
I just love how they talk about encryption, and how they are going to prevent pirates, blah blah blah.
When are people going to realize that in things like this, encryption/obfuscation/etc... will only keep honest people honest. The pirates and people who have extra time will break ANYTHING they can put on a disc.
Why is this?
The answer is so simple, which is why it flabbergasts me that people put so much time and effort into copy protection.
The decrypted content is IN THE HANDS OF THE END USER. Right there, that simple fact is why every possible method of copy protection will fail. If the end user has the decrypted content, it is possible to (obviously) retrieve that content by the end user (I know that's circular). Because of this, you can NOT protect a DVD or whatever from being copied, no matter what.
It's appalling the kind of money and time that goes into trying to keep content from the user, when in the end, it's doomed to fail and it's obvious to anyone with half a brain.
I chose not to buy a DVD burner until +/- burners became widely available. I passed up the fire sales on +only or -only drives, it just wasn't worth the risk.
Why? I didn't want to be caught with a losing proposition.
I'll buy a high-capacity DVD player only if it can play all common formats.
Message to the Media Moguls who probably aren't listening:
Either agree on a common format or make darn sure you sell affordable multi-format drives. Otherwise you aren't going to get my money. Remember, once I buy the hardware, I'll keep coming back for software. Until then, you won't see it.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It probably means that, for wahtever reason, the movie industry have once again chosen the format with the weakest content protection.
This is good news for us because it means that the chances of a free Linux HD-DVD player are pretty high.
I know I snickered to myself when I saw the picture on my friends HD bigscreen and cable.
I think he's going to try the Voom service.
If the studios are for it then that means it's Doubleplus good for us. Right?
You can be sure that this will be a user-hostile situation. M.I. type discs, "Mr. Phelps, this disc will self destruct in 5 seconds." after watching something.
They do NOT want to allow us to keep anything.
They want recordings to operate like PPV, pay each time you watch it, even if you've recorded or BOUGHT it.
No matter how loud people bitch and squeal, they'll force this on people, one way or another.
I've got a number of old TV's. Several of them are in great condition, nothing wrong with them at all, but they won't receive HD programming. So if I want HD programming (which I don't) I would have to either buy all new TV's or some sort of set-top tuners. But, no worries, they'll make me do it anyway, I've got one more year of use out of my old legacy TV's and rabbit ears.
All the local stations have begun dual-casting in HD and analog and are hawking the new technology in PSA's, urging everyone to hurry and buy a new TV set before they turn off the old.
I like the analog way. When there is a signal problem with digital, the picture breaks up and almost completely fails and the sound is either mangled beyond understanding or is muted completely. In the old analog world (that I still live in) the signal can be weak but the picture and sound is still viewable and understandable. I can turn my old TV on, turn the rabbit ears around and get the local news. It looks like crap but it's more than good enough to get the weather report. If it were digital and the signal was that bad it would have already muted the sound and put up a message on the screen "Please stand by, acquiring signal"..
So, just like they are forcing digital TV upon us, they will force whatever media type gives THEM the upper hand, the most control. They will NEVER gives us any technology that gives US the upper hand..
I know that the current DVD standards are proprietary. In fact I hold a CSS license (#03L0107-A) as a DVD Player Manufacturer, DVD Drive Manufacturer, Descrambler Manufacturer, and an Authentication Module manufacturer.
The DVDCCA is not going to loose much by people using Linux. If anything they will see more DVDs purchased. Microsoft, on the other hand, stands to win if potential converts to Linux can not play the new DVDs on their systems. I am not talking about what is legally possible. I am talking about corporate motivations and what is likely to happen.
Even with all the encryption in the world, some part of the signal chain has to be decrypted right? they can't eradicate piracy when all a pirate needs is an EE degree and a soldering iron...
You are stupid, but we will show you the light. We don't expect Joe Shmuck to buy HDTV sets and HD-DVD players right away. We see the prices for the sets falling. A year or two after we release HD players, those prices will also come down. By that time there should be some stunning content available. Early adopters will show this off to their friends, who will get their own sets and players. We don't expect you to buy another copy of American Pie, which will work just fine on the new players. We do however, hope you purchase the HD-DVD version of Star Wars Episode III or the next James Bond.
With love,
Hollywood
"Just a reminder: VideoCD (MPEG-1) requires the implementation of The Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft Layer 3 algorithm. This means anyone using a computer to play Video CDs or listen to .MP3 music files may be subject to Fraunhofer licensing restrictions."
This is false. The VCD 2.0 standard, as is commonplace in Asia, does not require MP3 compression at all. The VCD 2.0 (MPEG-1) is based purely on the MPEG algorithm alone; it encodes audio using MPEG-1, Layer TWO, not THREE. The VCD MPEG-1 format is no longer used; I haven't seen a single one for sale in probably over 10 years. VCD's are pretty much clear legally.
Check the bottom of this webpage for a quick helpful table:
http://www.digvid.info/media/vcd.php
"Audio Compression MPEG-1 layer 2
Audio Bitrate 224kbps"
DVD/AC3 are pretty accurate though.
All they care about is that StupidPeople and StuplePeopid won't copy all kinds of movies, music, pictures, software, and other media. That's all they care about. Bunch of greedy scumbags. You wait and see. The free software movement is changing software. More and more governments, corporations, businesses, and individuals are switching every day. Right now, this software is catching up to commercial software in many areas. It has already exceeded it in others. In the next few years, it will exceed commercial software in many areas. The desktop will switch to free software. This same movement, I believe, will eventually take control of the music, movies, and other media industries. This movement will continue to grow, until the messiah shows up and everything is free in the world, and all work will be done by robots, and all we'll do is hang out at the beach and have a good time. That'll be cool.
As per subject, What's wrong with DVD-Audio encryption? It works just fine, it's already there and nobody has broken it yet.
Assuming it's worth it going HD with the latest plasma screen, what would be the next thing they could entice buyers with. People have limited space at homes and you can only fit a screen so big, so a ceiling would be hit with ongoing resolution increases. So is HD this limit? How big/sharp a screen would one have to have where 720p/1024i doesn't cut it?
Whether to put up with these security provisions or not. Witness the (original) DIVX players.
Here's a relevant story. When DVDs first came out, I was an early adopter, and bought a player in the first year or so. I figured the format was going to take off, and I was tired of the kids video tapes wearing out from repeated play.
The first thing I did was bring the DVD player home, and pipe it through my VCR, which had multiple inputs I could switch between using the remote, rather than with a mechanical switch. Convenient. Finally, buying a higher-end VCR was going to pay off. This was all in the days before multiple video inputs were common on some types of stereo receivers, so this may seem trivial today.
The hardware was all set up, and I put in "The Wizard of Oz" (one of the initial crop of discs I bought, this one at the request of the spouse). WTF? Fading to black and back, messed-up sound, etc. This is not what the DVD is supposed to look like! Was it broken out of the box?
No. It was at that point I learned the joys of MacroVision video copy protection. Now I know that it is not technically difficult to circumvent, but it was damned annoying. I was not trying, and had no interest, in video taping from the DVD. I was just piping through the VCR as a source switch. Thanks to this nonsense, I had to re-do the wiring and buy a stupid and awkward mechanical switch for the TV input.
From that point on, I have been wary of any kind of copy protection or anything else that might interfere with the simple and valid desire to watch the video content I paid for, on the system I have, without stupid encumberances. I will *not* buy any flavour of HD-DVD player until I know that I will not be surprised some day by the thing incorrectly deciding I must be a pirate, and my license to play has been revoked. I've already been fooled once with regular DVD.
I believe ATSC now stands for Advanced Television Systems Committee.
Slashdot = -1 Redundant, Asperger, kdawson FUD, Libertarian, and Linux
DTV = Digital TV
HDTV = High Definintion TV (should be HD-DTV)
Usually, I am against the kind of closed standards Sony imposes, but thisis an exception. Why? Storage capacity. Blu-ray has a masively greater storage capacity compard to HD-DVD. Yes,they contain the same amount and qwuality of movie due to their different comproseeion algorythams, but for raw data capacity, Blu-ray wins. As I'll almost certainly be using a combination of HDD storage and few disks for a home theatre system, i'm more focussed on the raw capacityof the disksor storage and transfer of other data.
When I use a software player, is there going to be some kind of key exchange (itself encrypted) between my drive and video card via PIO, or is the data just going to go in the clear from the drive to my framebuffer? It seems to me that unless this pathway is secure, I could apply some creative device virtualization with VMWare and capture the frames to memory.
I can make it look to the drive like I'm pushing "pause" on my software player every 5 seconds, while i then go and do a high-quality encode of the captured frames...
Otherwise, it seems to me all vendors are going to need to private keys so that my XYZ drive will encrypt specifically for an ABC video card and all that ever goes over IDE/PCI-X is encrypted...
Who has the real scoop on this?
When blu-ray and hd-dvd players people will say "How is this better than DVD again, seeing as how I don't own an HDTV and I already bought most of my library and I can play DVDs on my laptop on the go?"
When Playstation 3 with blu-ray comes out people will be saying "Where does the line start to buy one? Oh look, it can play the HD-super-ultra-edition of Goldeneye. "
This consortium may help level the playing field for demand for eye-candy movies (LOTR in particular helps HD-DVD) but movies aren't going to be driving early adoption of the players. People talk about how video games are more lucrative than movies - this will prove they're a more important market too.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
Here's an idea--don't hack your DVD player.
Once again, pirates ruin it for everyone, and the Slashdotties blame the content creators instead of the pirates. Because most Slashdotties ARE pirates.
Formats with Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) can transfer responsibility for security code development from player makers to studios, authoring tool vendors, and other parties who have direct economic motivations to make appropriate investments in security. This greatly reduces the need for CE/IT companies to spend on security, while providing content owners with the assurance that critical security investments will be made.
That's a strange thing to say. I'm an owner, but I'm certainly not content. Do they expect me to be more content because they're trying to give the MPAA more power over their customers?
Slashdot bitches when there's no competition.
Slashdot bitches when there's competition because it "splits the market asunder."
I don't see any bitching over the fragmentation of the OSS world on this issue. So which is it?
Actually, VCD uses only Layer II audio, not MP3. There aren't any controlling patents or licensing fees for MPEG-1.
Your general point is very apt, of course. Except for VCD, virtually all media technologies require various patent licensing, and in practice these haven't resulted in any company gaining undo control over the technology. It just means that makes of encoders, players, and/or content have to pay a fee to make the stuff. But the licensing contracts don't let a company revoke or re-negotiate the license after it has been launched.
My video compression blog
Does anyone know if any of these systems take into account copyright expiration? Granted that it seems congress is extending thee term every time that Mickey Mouse comes close to expiring, but I wonder if we should ensure that content being produced today properly becomes public domain upon the expiration of the copyright.
Stop selling DVDs. People will have to buy their films in hd-dvd/bluray/whatever or forget them.
Oh, but they will.
I'm not sure what the price of the actual discs will be, but I imagine it wouldn't be much more than DVDs are today. Once players come down in price (which should be really quick), what would be the point of selling DVD players in the future? Everyone will by buying these Blu-ray players and slowly filling the installed base with Blu-ray (because honestly, HD-DVD will not win). Movies will come out in both DVD and Blu-ray format for quite a while afterwards (just look at the VHS tapes being produced). The transition won't be as fast as VHS->DVD, but it will happen. There are a lot more advantages of Blu-ray than just higher image quality (although, that is one of my biggest draws).
Andrew
PS: I think the comparison you should have made was CDs versus DVD-Audio and Super Audio CDs. These both offer higher quality or extra channels. This analogy falls short, however, since there is a much larger installed based of CDs, you can't easily rip multichannel (> stereo) audio to your computer, and no companies are automatically adopting it. My brothers recent Creative Labs audio card supports it, but that is all we have that does. Blu-ray, however, will quickly become the new standard in computers, stand alone players, and, I believe, the PS3.
AACS is the Ann Arbor Computer Society
AACS web site
The world will not get better through technology. We must seek to be better people.
all they need to do is release a super-duper special edition hd-dvd 'lord of the rings'. instant market penetration.
Personally I loathe DVD encryption just for the region encoding alone.
Which is exactly the reason, why I don't own a DVD player. I just hate it that I have to "hack" a newly bought consumer device first (update the firmware) before it becomes usable.
And for a different reason, I don't own copy protected CDs (but a lot of standard CDs): Who guarantees me that I will be able to play them in 20 years, if the copy protection is actually a non-standard CD that works on some (most?) players? At least my old vinyls are playing still and flawlessly (even a scratch only removes tiny parts of the content -- and not everything as with CDs)
I guess it's who's paying more that day is a winner2 2/175421 7&tid=188&tid=198&tid=1
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/
Blu-Ray is a better format than HD-DVD. They will both include security measures to prevent copying, but:
:(
- blu ray has a special coating that is meant to eliminate 90+% of handling scratches to the disk.
- blu ray holds more data (changes in materials and tolerances).
They both require the same 3 codec support in the player (MS WM9 (VC-1), MP4 (H.264) and MP2). They both need blue lasers. They both will use next generation Dolby Digital and DTS sound formats for 7.1 (or higher) surround sound. The only reason HD-DVD is even in contention is because the manufacturing methodology is nearly identical to normal DVD. Therefore, the same factories and materials can be used to produce HD-DVD and normal DVD content. With Blu-Ray all new equipment needs to be purchased and the per-disc materials costs is higher. So, the studios are faced with the following choices:
- Use a more consumer-friendly (scratch resistant, more data) format, or
- Use a format that gives us more profit.
Wonder which one will win?
Dan
Not a single question there addresses fair use. Or even the ability to use the HD DVD as i see fit.
The secret to getting modded up is to allways say i've got karma to burn in your sig..
But don't get all worked up just because Microsoft was the company whose codec was chosen instead of one of the other evil companies in mpegla.com's portfolio, unless you want to be thought of as this guy.
Neither Dolby nor Fraunhofer have a vested interest in seeing Linux getting screwed and sued into the ground. Microsoft does.
Deal.
In my mind non-exclusivity means that in the end players will be supporting only one format, leaving the other to die - especailly when you are talking about replacing $30 DVD players they can't be too bundled up in licenceing fees.
It's sort of like companies that made Divx and normal DVD's back when Circuit City was trying that format - to me HD-DVD seems a bit like Divx (though only a bit since it does not have the major issues Divx did).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Maybe the grandparent's poster wants the movie industry to produce plots that are thicker and more tasty.
[voice=dr.evil]Does he have fricken' lasers on him? How can he be a future child without fricken' lasers?[/voice]
--- Ban humanity.
They can 'endorse' the standard all they like. What matters is the drive that the Sony, Hitachi, etc produce. 'If you build it, they will come' is mostly true in the electronics world... the standard that wins in home theatre equipment and on store shelves is the standard that new-DVD creators will be forced to follow if they want people to buy/rent their content.
This is not the 70's... people don't rent their players, so I don't see a backdoor like video rental stores getting an inferior standard in the door.
If they can get the endorsement of Dell and Sony, then I'll be interested. But I think there's no news in this report. The big corporation content distributers are endorsing the more-DRM-enhanced standard... and they have some pull, but not enough to matter in the end, IMO.
Raven
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
In the header for this topic, are you sure you didn't mean to say "...an ability to recover from security failures..." rather than "...no ability to recover from security failures..."?
I can't comment on the future predictions of pay-per-view, but remember DIVX. Consumer apathy can kill a format faster than anything else.
But regarding your old analog sets, none of your fears are founded. With a new DTV tuner, your old set will work just fine. Standard definition tuners will be about 50 bucks in a year and HD tuners about $100. They're about $100 and $300 now. They do and will output to a regular TV via RCA, S-Video, or RF-converter. The HD channels will of course be downsampled to starndard def. for your TV. Congress is even looking at fully subsidizing the cost of these tuners so it may cost you nothing.
Regarding signal, if you can see/hear anything recognizble now, the same signal strength digital signal will look nearly perfect. You'll still have to tweak with the rabbit ears if you have a weak signal. Sorry if you'll miss the snow and buzz.
Digital TV is so clearly superior in every respect that the US government felt it had to act in the public interest since the broadcast/electronics industry was dragging it's collective heels for so long. It was the film/TV industry that wanted control, but they took so long to figure out how to control the uncontrollable that the US govt. finally stepped in and forced them to quit stalling.
-Ryan C.
I'm not trying to justify piracy, I'm pointing out what will happen.
Competition is good, but better when done in the context of a shared standard.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Plenty of people watch Divx stuff now that is pretty highly compressed, lots of people would be satisfied just to get the extra resolution even with more compression artifacts.
There are already a large number of people downloading copies of HD TV shows, not much shorter than a full movie. You can thank BitTorrent for making that possible - and people seem willing to wait literally days for show to finish transferring.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
For one thing, the extra storage space on these new formats makes lots more extras and commentary possible.
On the main point though - I once thought as you do that people would be happy enough with DVD's as there were and wouldn't see a noticable difference between DVD's and HDTV resolution signals. But after comparing HD broadcast movies and normal DVD's, I have to say the difference is not all that hard to see and is pretty impressive. And lots of people are buying TV's now that do offer the extra level of resolution that can take advantage of the extra resolution.
The format will take a while to catch on though if there's really much of a standards war.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
r...
I'm an average consumer and I can tell that DVD quality while better than VHS is not as good as I would like it.
A lot of "average consumers" I know, know more about the upcoming standards than I do and they don't read slashdot. haha.
I'm waiting to invest in any sort of widescreen/hd television until some form of video uses it to it's full potential.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
...is weather libdvdcss (or a modified version) will work with HD-DVDs.
Yeah, but it's just that Microsoft is so evil. ANY other format other than a Microsoft format is goodness. Theirs always turns evil. Every last one of their formats has turned evil. They can't make a non-evil format even if they tried. It isn't that difficult to make a non-evil format. Someone (an international standards engineering group much like the Internet Engineering Task force) should make an international standard, free of private comapny shakedown lawyers. Standards based on merit --not profit margin-- should be what we are using. Microsoft is evil evil evil!
IANAL, IANAL, etc....
It seems to me that if they are going to be as trigger happy as they have been in the past, it may be possible to bait them into causing you some damage and then sue.
For example, I have written a simple sed script to remote style attributes and font tags from HTML in order to prepare it for cascading style sheets. I could call this decss.sed and release it, and if they write my ISP and have my internet account syspended, I could sue them.
And if we can muddy the waters enough, it will be far harder for them to take action against anyone else.
I am not sure how you would bait them into revoking a DVD player's ability to play DVD's, but it might be possible.
Also you have another problem.... Revocation seems to imply connectivity, as in Div-X's failed model. Since the decryption must occur on the system itself, this seems to imply that the codes will be sent over a public network such as the internet or the PSTN. In either case, it should be possible to intercept the keys and store them for later use. So, I can use Linux, a loop station card, and Asterisk as a circumvention device. Take that, DMCA!
Yes, I know that depending on the implementation, one might not be able to spoof the server, but one would at least be able to store the keys transmitted (may require determining where the system's private key is stored and obtaining it first). It may also be possible to reverse engineer the protocol and then request all the keys for all HD-DVD's ever released (it should be reasonably possible to spoof the HD-DVD player).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Long live Jack Valenti!
this means that we get good movies now, right? cmon please? just one? My imagination is really starting to get boring. I really want to live to see another good movie like the matrix or gladiator, because buying the UBERMASTER SUPERDIGITAL verson of a movie just gets (a lack of a better word) retarded after the first remake. All im begging is that one of these companies make a good movie. Even if its not this special digitalized verson, just make a good movie damnit! And dont tell me gigli was good, oh dont even!
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. - Catcher in the Rye
I've had a DVD player for THREE YEARS.
It's outlasted several computers, digital cameras, portable music playing devices.
Three years makes things old tech now.
Despite what folks above said, from what I've seen on nice big Plasma screens HD video is much prettier.
It's too early now, but in a couple of years when Plasma and LCD screens cost bugger all, then I for one will welcome our new....
It's just a cooler name than HD-DVD.
HD-DVD is such an ugly, uncomfortable acronym. And it reminds me of these Hard Disk recording gadgets.
Blu-Ray.... it just rolls off the tongue. Sounds so sleek and cool. Something you'd name a 1950's car with big fins.
The VCD standard does NOT use MPEG Layer 3, it uses MPEG Layer 2 (224kbps, 44100 Hz). MPEG.org includes several links to free/public domain encoders/decoders/players, and thus is probably not patented.
I recently purchased a DVD player for about $60. My old VHS player finally gave out, and I've noticed it's much harder to find new releases on VHS these days. I would have purchased a nicer player, however I found that there is an incredible lack of recording players out there. I couldn't find a player with two DVD decks for making backups. Not that it would have helped much; I also discovered that the blank DVD disks available in stores could not hold the entire contents of a DVD movie disk. Oh yeah, and my DVD player won't let me fast forward through those nauseating advertisements and movie trailers at the beginning of the disk either.
You appear to be taking a gigantic leap backwards in usability in comparison to good ol' VHS. Since DVD's big sell is the improved picture and sound quality, I have to say I haven't noticed any difference on my $200 21" TV set.
As a result, I've been buying and watching a lot fewer movies these days. It's just too much hassle. The disks are just too expensive and fragile to use in lieu of a cheap backup copy. If the next round of players work this way, I won't be buying a new player regardless of format. The pain of rewinding tapes was nothing compared to this. Thanks for wasting my time and money. Oh and before you implore me to try a PVR, I've heard about that broadcast flag thing and TIVO pop-ups. No thanks. Here's an idea: Give me something that works as well as my VCR did and I'll be happy to spend money with you again.
Sincerely,
The Customer
I don't have a drive that can record any kind of DVD media. I have enjoyed playing DVDs for three years now. I have never had a disc break or become so scratched it skiped or would not play. They appear to be just as durable as my CD collection, which still play fine after more than a decade of use. Perhaps you should stop trying to eat the DVDs or fling them like frisbees. I do however have unpleasant memories of VHS tapes getting tangled in my late-80s JVC player. Some tapes started showing static in places. I must admit that once I got a new player about five years ago, those problems vanished.
You should consider getting a better TV if you don't notice any difference, as I can assure you there is. While I don't own any Disney DVDs, I've never had a problem skipping the ads and trailers either on my friend's player or my computer's drive. Perhaps your player isn't versatile enough. Rather than get a new player, try; inserting the disc, then with the TV off or muted, go add salt and butter to your popcorn. Dim the lights. Pull a comfy blanket up around you and perhaps someone close to you. Then start watching from the the title screen. If the disc auto-plays the movie after the trailers, hit "menu" on the remote before turning on the TV.
Sincerely,
Hollywood
Since our own lawmakers have abandoned any pretense of fairness when dealing with DRM and copyrights, its up to the Chinese to ignore our laws and make the content available to us in a useful way.
This is good news for the consumer.
And despite Hollywood's whining, it will ultimately be better for them.
"content makers will then pull their stuff and you won't have access to anything, so you're killing it and not furthering it. "
So if they don't sell their stuff...how will they make money?
They'll sit in their vaults in West Hollywood like scrooge mcduck with all that content locked in a vault saying "we'll hold it back until they see it OOOOOOOOUR way!"
Please.
They'll sell whatever makes money.
I guess you need to take that up with KDE/GNOME/XFCE/whatever then.
From http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,116471,0 0.asp:
Hollywood movie studios--not consumers--will likely decide the fate of the two formats, he says. The HD-DVD format could have the edge with the studios, he says.
The reason: HD-DVD discs are similar to current DVDs in that the recording layer is sandwiched between two 0.6 millimeter layers of plastic in the middle of the disc. This means existing production lines can be easily converted to manufacture HD-DVD discs--a possibility that was confirmed in conversations with Taiwanese disc makers at the Computex trade show in Taipei last week.
Because the recording layer in a Blu-ray disc is 0.1 millimeters below the surface on the top of a 1.1 millimeter substrate, this disc will require a new production line.
Hollywood studios, which produce billions of DVD discs a year, are very sensitive to even a slight rise in the price of production, Inada says.
Oh, gee, no shit? Slight price increase? Yeah, we want to MAXIMIZE profit and ELIMINATE consumer choice.
I hope every stinking format from now until the day I die gets hacked in record time.
if the consumers aren't willing to upgrade their "brand new" dvd palyers to those that can play hd-dvd/blur ray discs there will be no winners only angry ceo's and unemployed marketers
Get your torrents...
Just a reminder: Microsoft is Microsoft.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
But don't get all worked up just because Microsoft was the company whose codec was chosen instead of one of the other evil companies in mpegla.com's portfolio, unless you want to be thought of as this guy.
I sometimes call Microsoft Corporation "M$" for two reasons that the Penny Arcade strip doesn't touch on at all: 1. Slashcode limits the length of subject lines, and 2. Microsoft started out as a developer of BASIC interpreters for microcomputers, and in early line-numbered BASIC, all string variable names ended in '$'.
There aren't any controlling patents or licensing fees for MPEG-1.
Really? Are you sure that MPEG-1 video and MPEG-1 layer 2 audio were invented more than 20 years ago?
Like all Sony formats they are almost 100% destined to be ignored and reviled by consumers. The only exception is MiniDisc
What about Philips Compact Disc Digital Audio, which Sony co-developed? What about PlayStation and PlayStation 2?
Currently it's impossible to do 1:1 copies of StarForce3 and SafeDisc5 protected CDs since all CD-R and CD-RW discs have a groove already pressed at the factory that the writing laser follows.
Both copy protections work by using a variable groove on pressed CDs that CD-RW drives can't physically reproduce, just like it's impossible to make a 1:1 copy of ANY CSS protected DVD with a computer DVD+-RW drive since all DVD-R(W) and DVD+R(W) discs are crippled from the factory!
Of course, the serious pirates just press their copies just like original CDs/DVDs, so it's just us customers that get screwed.
Capitalization is the difference between "Helping your uncle jack off a horse" and "Helping your uncle Jack off a horse"
AFAIK, VideoCDs use MPEG1-Layer II as audio, not Layer III.
Move Sig. For great justice.
For VCD, actually, it doesn't use MP3; rather it uses MPEG-1 Layer 2 (at 224 kb/s). Whether or not this is covered under the same Fraunhofer/Thompson patent, I don't know.
"Since both HD-DVD and blu-ray are using the same blue lasers, will this 'war' eventually turn out to be HD/BR-DVD similar to the DVD+/-R standards."
You're wrong on this. Blu Ray uses a slightly larger media format, thus is incomptabile size-wise with current DVD media. It is also higher in capacity per side - 27gb.
HD-DVD is the exact same size as current DVD-Media, so you can make a player with different laser intensities that can easily interchange between older DVD's and HD-DVD's. However, the drawback is the capacity - it's 15gb, which is 12gb less than the Blu-Ray Format.
PS - Go fuck yourself, I'm not a coward.
with pirated DVD's not having Operator Not ALlowed, being possible to back up AND being cheaper, a lot of people (myself included) will be looking to pirate video as a worthy alternative.
A well-off person's time is worth more than a poor person, so the official DVD is more expensive again.
I was thinking of grabbing the contents of the video card's frame-buffer, but your technique is more straightforward and works with all cards. It's also pretty much guarenteed to be legally clean.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Just because some people have chosen to fill the space does not mean it has no use - I was just watching Winged Migration the other day, and while the movie itself was pretty good but a little long, each of the extras were utterly fantastic (except for the directors commentary which was way too repititive and seemingly never about the scene at hand).
I would not have minded a lot more extras on that one. Plus the space for lots of extra commentaries increas the odds you might get one that's any good at all!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Perhaps I got the spelling wrong, but I was referring to the Circuit City DVD standard that used encrypted DVD's that you could only unlock with specific players. Todays DVD players can most certainly NOT play these monuments to greed and distrust of consumers.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think your statement is true if you are only referring to plasma and/or LCD displays. I paid $1200 for my HD projection TV and I assure you it is true HD. It accepts 420i, 420p, and 1080i. Also, 1080p is yet not available on consumer sets.
Formats that include Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) address key sharing attacks by binding a title's decryption algorithms with renewable security logic. Instead of having a simple decryption key, titles carry their own security software that can integrate system renewability, forensic marking, decryption, and other security processes. This strong binding is essential to avoid attacks that try to separate the ability to decrypt a title from its security rules.
Requirement #3: Pirates must not be able to bypass the security of high-definition disc formats by posting title or media keys on the Internet.
*ROTFL*. so they gonna solve that by banning internet access?
It so sad...
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating