Beating Roulette With Computers & Lasers

MeerCat writes "The BBC are reporting that a group of gamblers who won more than £1m at the Ritz Casino by using laser technology have been told by police they can keep their winnings. A laser scanner linked to a computer was allegedly used to gauge numbers likely to come up on the roulette wheel. Of course this could be Labour spin to try and get people excited about the idea of cheating at mega casinos"

Comments

MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't a bunch of MIT kids a while back use computers to count cards in several Vegas casinos? They ended up being banned from every casino's blackjack table.

Re:MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

No

The famous MIT story is that teams didn't use any kinds of computers. You don't need to use computers to beat blackjack either. But they did get kicked out of casinos since they're private property and they dont like cardcounting. The fact it's legal is irrelevant.

Re:MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need computers to count cards. The MIT guys sure didn't. Hell, whipping out a PDA in the middle of a blackjack game would be an excellent way to tip off the casinos as to what you're doing. One of the hardest parts about counting cards is making it look like you and your accomplices are just a bunch of unrelated people playing a normal game of cards.

Re:MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

The plus side of MIT's operation was that they worked as a team. Teams are much harder to spot by the casino staff than a single card-counter, so they managed to make a lot before being spotted. Wired's story.

Re:MIT

[Hognoxious]

I once heard of some guys who had a computer inside a shoe, but I think that was for roulette. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Re:MIT

[kd5ujz]

I think you are speaking of the computers used by Ken Uston's black jack teams. This computer was named George. You can stil buy them from these guys Casey Computer

Re:MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

No, there is a computer card counter that fits in the sole of a shoe that is made for blackjack. You tap your heel to input what cards you are played, but I'm not sure how it works beyond that.

The MIT story he is talking about was actually a bunch of mathematicians who counted the cards in their heads, and won a great deal of money but the casinos still banned them despite the fact that they weren't using any mechanical cheats.

Re:MIT

[geggibus]

That was in an episode of CSI..

(Might have happened for real too. I don't know)

Re:MIT

[Ayaress]

I'm banned from Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort for card counting. Just basic deck-weighting, nothing fancy. Usually if they think you're card counting, they offer you free drinks. They always watch gamblers who aren't drinking (espeically if the drinks are comp) extra closely, and they will at the very least take away your notes or calculator, if not ask you to leave.

Re:MIT

[matth1jd]

One should also note that Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort is notorious for not paying out much as they should for their slot machines. I wouldn't be suprised if they ask anyone trying to get a leg up to leave.

Even though they are fined by the feds for not paying out they just eat the fines and come out on top anyways.

I spent a part of my collegiate career at that casino since it was right down the road

--J

Re:MIT

[zaphod_es]

Do you mean a telephone? I am one of the few around here old enough to remember Maxwell Smart the TV detective. The CIA were obviously fans. http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item15.html

On second thoughts it might look a bit obvious these days - a mobile phone is less noticeable than a shoe!

Re:MIT

[michaeldot]

I am one of the few around here old enough to remember Maxwell Smart the TV detective.

I don't think that's true at all. Or else I'm suddenly feeling very old!

Re:MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

I am one of the few around here old enough to remember Maxwell Smart the TV detective.

Then you must be old enough that you are getting Alzheimers (sp?). Maxwell Smart was a secret agent, not a detective.

Re:MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

Winner Banned.
Pretended to gamble , ie 10 on black, 10 on red, just to score a cheap room, free parking, free drinks, and pigging out on dollar breakfasts etc. They said don't come back.

Re:MIT

[peter303]

I hear MIT people and other college students do this almot every year. The Learning Channel had a documentary about another MIT group that did this.

If I wear a MIT logo to a 21 table, will I be quickly expelled?

Re:MIT

[falcon5768]

probably, likewise they will kick you if you even play with your cellphone a little too much.

That incident was a huge shakeup for the gambling industry, mostly cause it was their biggest threat to a industry that makes its money by cheating you out of it one way or another.

That's a sophisticated scan

[fussili]

On a par with Number 2's Eye Patch X-ray thing in Austin Powers: IMM

Re:That's a sophisticated scan

[zoomshorts]

Very sophisticated. I think it was really some of the scientists laid-off from Reagans Star Wars idea. That computational power can only come from super computers laying in a bath of liquid nitrogen. The "scanner" would need 3-d capabilities to see spin, calculate force and direction, versus wheel friction and spin etc. On top of that it seems too good to be true. (Tightens foil cap snugly)

Labour spin? Huh?

[PHPgawd]

Of course this could be Labour spin to try and get people excited about the idea of cheating at mega casinos.

Can somebody tell me what this means? Why would Labour (which I assume to mean the UK Labour Party) want to get people excited about cheating at mega casinos?

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

The UK Labour party intends to legalise large "American style" casinos, which are currently illegal in the UK. The bill faces stiff oposistion.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. "Bread and Circuses" (See also "National Lottery")

2. All that lovely tax money they can rake in from the idiots who read this story, and then go and lose their wages.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[happyhippy]

They are planning to allow the opening of several Las Vegas style super casinos around the UK which dont exist here. Currently casinos are limited to small rooms and crowds and are overly regulated. Funnily enough its the Las Vegas casinos who lobbied the idea in the first place.

Though recently they backed off from the idea by reducing the number of initial casinos to about six (I cant remember the original number) as there are fears here that they'd cause more crime and more poverty in the surrounding area due to the envitable rise in gambling addiction.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[RonnyJ]

As others have said, that comment is because of upcoming changes in gambling laws in the UK, which may mean big casinos being built.

However, saying that this report is Labour spin is like saying that reports on suicide bombings in Iraq are 'Democratic spin'. It's not, it's news.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[StateOfTheUnion]

. . . as there are fears here that they'd cause more crime and more poverty in the surrounding area due to the envitable rise in gambling addiction.

Why would mega-casinos cause gambling addction to rise in the UK? . . . a country where there are bingo parlors, casinos, slot machines and bookmakers (bookies for you yanks) already legal and seemingly found throughout the country.

Are we somehow to assume that the siren's call of a megacasino is somehow more compelling than that of the bookmaker and bingo parlor located round the corner?

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Dizzle]

IANAGAE (I am not a gambling addiction expert) but to me, it would seem far more likely that someone could get addicted to a megacasino with it's flashing lights, sounds, atmosphere, progressive jackpots, everything. They're just much slicker than anything else that people are used to and as such, it's far easier to become addicted. So yeah, I guess that would be a safe assumption.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Garak]

Here in NF, Canada we have problems with gambling addiction and VLT's in the back of bars. The VLT's are goverment regulated cash cow for all parties except the people playing them ofcourse.

Every bar has a few video lottery terminals in the back and they are very accessable for people to use day to day. Rather than going to a big mega casino which usually requires a special trip its right there. And thus it the VLT's are easy to get addicted to.

I've only ever used them once, I put in $2 and pulled out $20 and I haven't used them since. I'm not going to push my luck.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[mikael]

Can somebody tell me what this means? Why would Labour (which I assume to mean the UK Labour Party) want to get people excited about cheating at mega casinos?

Gambling in casino's in the UK is restricted to private casinos, where you have to register as a member 24 hours before being allowed to make any bets. There are betting shops (bookies) which allow people to make bets on races, but they have to keep the inside of the shop obscured (usually by posters) to avoid anyone falling to temptation. Many pubs and nightclubs have the odd slot machine (fruit machine) with the spinning reels, but they don't really rake in more than maybe 300 pounds a week, and have to have the theme changed every 4-5 weeks, otherwise the punters lose interest. There's also the traditional beach arcades, where you could play various skill games for a pound coin.

The Labour party was caught out with some dodgy visits to and from the Los Vegas casino owners, over the "tightening of gambling laws". The argument goes that since the Internet is allowing people to gamble from home or work, they need new legislation to ban the slot machines from pubs/night clubs, and that these should be replaced by dozens of new super-casinos able to set up all across the UK, especially in deprived areas. The Labour party spin is that this would allow the average UK member of the public to share in the glamour of high society gambling (image of men in tuxedo's and women in elegant evening gowns), although in reality the casinos would simply have hundreds of electronic slot machines linked up for national prizes.

Given the land shortage in the UK, there are far more practical uses for regenerated industrial sites. These include health and fitness centres, shopping malls, conference centres, office blocks, mixed-income housing, with casinos right at the bottom of the list. Especially since there is no real public demand for more casinos.

And there is also a growing public suspicion that New Labour seems to disregard anyone or any business who atttempts to earn a basic living (let alone make a fortune) from honest hard work, but is only interested in people who are prepared to recklessly gamble their own money eg. the obsession with getting "young people" to become entrepeneurs, or getting experienced senior managers to remortgage their homes in order to set up their own companies, or having multi-millionaires buy out companies with declining sales, and simply rebrand everyone and everything with uniforms and company logos.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because blackjack and its other 21 derivatives, the only card games where the house is mathematically beatable under certain conditions (card counting) is the most popular casino game. The casino I work at has 12 blackjack tables out of 23 total games of chance. It was not always so: keno used to be the popular game. But ever since it has been known that "blackjack can be beaten" it has drawn legions of players who could never card count if their lives depended on it.

The theory by the tinfoil hat grandparent is that the British government wants people to think roulette can also be easily beaten. With its 5.26% static house edge, the only way to beat a roulette game in the long run is to cheat. So, goes the theory, Labour encouraged the judge (in a Westminister parliamentary system, this isn't as difficult as an America citizen would suspect) to let the bad guys get away, hoping to make far more than that back when millions try their various "systems" on a game with a massive house edge.

This is, of course, patently silly. But that's the theory.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[c4miles]

Currently UK slot machine jackpots are capped (I think some machines can go up to £100). The new super-casinos will be allowed slots with effectively unlimited jackpots, like Vegas. I believe this is the main source of worry for the campaigners.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

bookmakers (bookies for you yanks)

They're bookmakers for us yanks, too. You don't have a different word for everything, you know.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Are we somehow to assume that the siren's call of a megacasino is somehow more compelling than that of the bookmaker and bingo parlor located round the corner?"

yes.

Isn't that half the point of having large luxurious mega-casinos? They have greater appeal and pull more people in, why would they spend the massive amounts of money setting them up if they weren't effective?

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[BasilBrush]

I can't see the problem. The 24 hour membership requirement is just a nanny state restriction on people being allowed to enjoy their leisure. It doesn't get in the way of habitual gamblers, because they are already signed up at the local casinos. What it does do is get in the way of people on holiday, or travelling on business that want to while away an evening in a casino. It's a restriction that belongs back in the 1950s.

As for regeneration, that all depends on where it is. There is a damn good regeneration case to be made for building resort casinos at Blackpool and other declining British resorts.

And your assertion that there is no real public demand for more casinos deserves only one simple answer - in that case they will have no customers, make no money and close. Let the market decide. Personally I look forward to being able to walk into a casino without pointless hinderance from the state if I want to.

Your last assertion makes no sense at all. Why would the government prefer gamblers to workers? I think it's just you who has a problem here. It's a problem with other people having different values than you. You might like the idea of being an employee working for a company that makes just enough to survive, but why should everybody else be the same? Some people enjoy being entrepreneurs. And why use the word "reckless" with regard to business risks? Perhaps they are just less risk averse than you, and have the guts to take a risk with a positive expectation.

You should live and let live.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[owlstead]

Yep, same with me. When I was a small child I was interested in playing one (flashy colors, whooo!), so my dad explained how it worked and I got a quarter. First time: bingo! I've been in the plus ever since, and I am trying to keep it that way :)

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[dannywalk]

In Ireland we often call them Turf Accountants, so I suppose we *do* have a different word for everything....

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[raehl]

Currently in the UK, gambling only attracts gambling addicts. With American-style casinos, they'll start giving you free beer when you gamble, allowing them to cash in on gambling *AND* alcohol addicts.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[mikael]

I can't see the problem. The 24 hour membership requirement is just a nanny state restriction on people being allowed to enjoy their leisure.

The fear was that somebody would get drunk, wander past a casino, go in and make a reckless gamble. Although most casinos are so far out of the way, and discretely signed, that nobody would really notice.

As for regeneration, that all depends on where it is. There is a damn good regeneration case to be made for building resort casinos at Blackpool and other declining British resorts.

I personally have no objections to the regeneration of places like Blackpool through the use of gambling. I seriously doubt that it would make any difference; If someone wants a gamble of a lifetime, they would probably take a package tour to Las Vegas anyway.

Your last assertion makes no sense at all. Why would the government prefer gamblers to workers?

I don't believe it's the government, it's more the banks/financial investors. I've attended conferences from directors who are advising others on setting up their own companies. Many were advised to set up their own companies by taking out loans and remortgaging their homes. Their problems start when their growth figures don't match investors expectations, and the investors want to liquidate the company and seize the assets (ie. their homes). Their advice - avoid debt, start with small goals, then expand once you've made a profit (Two examples to back this up; Rare Ltd and Spider Systems).

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Many pubs and nightclubs have the odd slot machine (fruit machine) with the spinning reels, but they don't really rake in more than maybe 300 pounds a week"
Speaking as someone who works in a bar, I can tell you the fruit machines are a bit more profitable than you might think. Having the machines there makes opening the bar at midday each day worthwhile. I don't know exact figures, but even if I stand behind the bar in an empty pub not serving anyone for a whole hour (as happened regularly), the takings from the machines when people are in the bar make up for it from the company's viewpoint.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[Daemonic]

The important difference to my mind is that at present people have to go looking for casinos, become a member, etc. whereas the proposed changes will make it far easier and more obvious.

What's annoying is that there's really no public demand - only the corporate interests and the politicians seem to want it.

Has anyone else noticed the sudden increase in advertising for products like card/roulette sets, poker chips, foldout blackjack tables, etc? I know it's Christmas, but it looks to me like perhaps someone is trying to wake up public desire for such gambling paraphernalia? I've been keeping half an eye out for some affordable poker chips for ages, and suddenly they're everywhere.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[hal2814]

Why would people travel to a Wal-Mart on the outskirts of town when there are corner stores nearby that have everything that Wal-Mart does? It happened here in the US (especially the South).

I imagine these mega-casinos will be quite competitive. For one reason, with so many people playing in one room everyone is bound to actually see someone win big. They'll probably also have nice amenities such as the buffets and hotels common to the US casinos. That will attract people looking for a spot for vacation. If a casino can get someone to go there for a vacation, then they will stand to make a lot more money than they do off someone killing an hour or two after work.

Re:Labour spin? Huh?

[afidel]

It's probably not so much that a megacasino increases the overall frequency of gambling addiction in the general population as it is that it GREATLY increases the frequency in the local population in the immediate surrounding area. Basically the area around the casino becomes a blighted area full of gambling addicts. The reality is that so long as a casino hasn't fallen out of favor with the general population and the total number of outlets for gambling is sensibly limited a casino or group of casinos can be the anchor for a sucessful entertainment district.

Of course no law was broken!

[bigtallmofo]

Unless they were using a laser to shoot the ball into the number they wanted, there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S., and I'm heartened to read the U.K. either.

"No more bets... And the number is 7... ZAP! I mean 19... ZAP! I mean 22... ZAP! I mean 13... ZAP! I mean 3... The winner is 3! You win again."

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I think it is.

There are regulations against using computerized devices. When they first got arrested that was the crux of the debate at least - that the laws hadn't been updated in Britain.

Plus you can't make monolithic statements about U.S. gaming. There are different gaming commissions for each state and for each reservation.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[mindstrm]

Except in Nevada where using electronic calculating devices to assist casino play is illegal.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

"there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S"

Nevada casinos will throw you out with our without a reason, and Indian joints can be even more arbitrary. It's not about "law", except for the one that says they can refuse service to anyone at all.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[DNS-and-BIND]

Well...in Nevada, winning is pretty much illegal. If you're in a game with a guaranteed negative outcome (which Roulette certainly is), and you win, that's prima facie evidence that you're cheating. Just try to leave the casino with your winnings. They'll keep you in a back room and review the tapes until they can figure out what you were doing.

Ask anyone who's worked in the "gaming" industry. There are NO winners. Sure, the occasional jackpot or lucky player, but that's just advertising.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[daeley]

Put all your money on black, did you?

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Mskpath3]

You've never played poker, eh?

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[IdleTime]

That is why you need to stay away from all the bad games. Only play on 100%+ payback systems or play where the house don't have the advantage.

When visiting Las Vegas, I always end up in the back where the high stakes poker tables are. You pay the rake to the casino and unload thick wads of money from other "unsuspecting" tourists who have seen poker on TV :) Never left Las Vegas without a nice paycheck, so to speak, but I never play slots, roulette or any other game designed to give the casino an edge. If you lose money in a casino, you have nodbody but yourself to blame. learn about the various games before you play and know which ones give the best chances of payback or stear clear of all the sucker games.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Rogue Leader]

If you're in a game with a guaranteed negative outcome (which Roulette certainly is)

Speaking as someone who was played roulette (and won hundreds of dollars at it); I must say this is false. If you play the outside of the table, the chances of winning are quite good. Wager on black/red, odd/even, you have a 50/50 chance of doubling your bet. Those are excellent odds. The key is after your get a good stack of chips, just set it aside and pretend it doesn't exist. You can turn $20 into $200 in a short amount of time if you play smart. You must know when to walk away. Like my brother told me; 'The two things you'll never see in a Casino are a clock or a window'. They are designed to keep you playing and losing.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Jardine]

Wager on black/red, odd/even, you have a 50/50 chance of doubling your bet.

That's not completely true. Roulette wheels have a 0 and sometimes a 00 on them to skew things slightly in favour of the casino. Your point still stands though. The odds aren't horrible and you can win a bit of money in the short term.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Bodysurf]

Just try to leave the casino with your winnings. They'll keep you in a back room and review the tapes until they can figure out what you were doing.

Sorry, that is illegal. They have to either let you go or call law enforcement immediately. They cannot "hold" someone. Well, they can, but then they will get their asses sued off.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[kraut]

No, no, no, there are lots of winners: The casino, the casino, and the casino.

Face it, anyone who gambles in a casino "to win" is a mug. Although the odds are a bit better than lottery, so are the stakes.

Two exceptions: Poker, where you're trying to find bigger mugs than yourself, and blackjack, where you can theoretically get an edge on the house. In practice, it's difficult, tedious, and a career that will be terminated as soon as you get successful.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[j0n4th4nb34r]

They didn't say it was illegal, their assets were frozen. Until it was decided what they did wasn't illegal, hence the assets where melted so to speak.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[GoogolPlexPlex]

The chance of winning on the outside of the layout is 18 out of 37, as there is a 0 that makes all outside bets lose.

Betting on one number has 1 way to win, but 36 ways to lose. But the house pays odds as though you had a 1-in-36 chance of winning, not 1-in-37. So, the house has an advantage over you - in the long term average, they pay out $36 for every $37 they take back. You can easily work out mathematically that all the other bets (ie, splitting a chip across 2 adjacent numbers etc) work out to exactly the same house advantage. (it's about 2.7% or something)

In fact, short of actually using technology to predict the outcome or to affect the outcome of the spin, there is NO betting scheme, algorithm, pattern or method of placing bets on a roulette wheel that leads to any difference in the house's advantage over you.

You are absolutely correct, however, in your assertion in that you must know when to walk away with your winnings. An even more important skill is to know when to walk away after losing.

(In the USA, the presence of the '00' on the wheel actually doubles the house advantage again)

And finally, a corollary to your assertion that you have won hundreds of dollars at roulette: You have also, on other occasions, lost hundreds of dollars at it.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

He said guaranteed negative outcome -ie. where the casino has the advantage.

Poker doesn't count because it is player vs. player, and the casino gets its money from the rake. That's more like the casino just hiring out the table and dealer to the players for a guaranteed per hour rate.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

it is perfectly legal because the law of nevada say they can. the courts will side with the house in nevada also.

they can do what ever they want without fear of breaking the law (because the law says they can)

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

You will do time in prison in Nevada with a device like this. They have a law where you can't even count cards in your mind let alone some electronic device to assist you. They know that using your mind to count cards would never stick in a court of law so they will just bar you from the casino, but if you get caught with a device, you are facing 1-10 years in prison.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

You will get a lot of back room harassment if they realize that you are beating them at their own game legally (my own experience). They will even arrest you if they feel they can pull it off without the courts possibly coming back at them. So most of the time you just get barred from the casino and if you come back, they will arrest you for trespassing.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[orulz]

Yeah, and what if you end up losing that first $20 that you were trying to double. Do you stop? Or do play again to "make up your losses"?

Statistically, no matter how you play, the house eventually wins at roulette.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Rogue Leader]

And finally, a corollary to your assertion that you have won hundreds of dollars at roulette: You have also, on other occasions, lost hundreds of dollars at it.

For the record; I have never lost money in a casino, including roulette. I am their worst kind of patron, the one who has always comes out ahead. Granted, I don't expect this to last forever. But you can minimize loss by bringing only the cash with you that you are willing to lose. Though I have stronger willpower than most. Okay, except at the strip club. But that's a different post. Private room dance? Well, alright. . .

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

your a dumbass....I won in Vegas once.....all they did was get me to sign some papers for TAX purposes........

I walked out with a cashiers check for 40k--- ($40,000)for those of you in Rio Linda............

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Piquan]

In fact, short of actually using technology to predict the outcome or to affect the outcome of the spin, there is NO betting scheme, algorithm, pattern or method of placing bets on a roulette wheel that leads to any difference in the house's advantage over you.

Sure there is. The five-number bet (only available in the US) gives the house an extra 2% or so of your cash, compared to the other bets.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[whorfin]

It is not illegal to count cards in your mind. However, the casinos have the right to refuse to allow you to play for any reason (and being a successful card counter is one that they think is a good reason). All they can do is escort you from the property, and if you resist or refuse, they can charge you with tresspass.

The Nevada state courts ordered a casino to pay a card counter who won a small pile of cash there, which the casino had refused to pay. That pretty much sums up the legality, I believe.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically there's only 1 "way" of being sure to win at Roulette, but it's ridiculous and I doubt a Casino or somebody would do such thing at large scale.

Just *DOUBLE* your bet each turn you don't win, because someway you'll get all your money back (the sum of all the money lost will be recycled back to you). if you have the guts to do that. :)

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[puetzk]

this of course assumes you have infinite money. I suppose if you have infinite money and like gambling, you're all set :-)

Otherwise the math works just the same, eventually you lose :-)

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[Jardine]

Statistically, no matter how you play, the house eventually wins at roulette.

Statistics only work reliably over long periods of time. Let's say you roll a 12 sided die. Each side has a 1 in 12 chance of coming up. Now let's say that 1-5 represent black, 6 and 7 represent 0 and 00, and 8-12 represent red. The odds are even more against you than in roulette, but it's still quite possible to win 3 or 4 times in a row and then quit.

Overall the house still wins and it's more likely to win than you but it's not improbable to come out ahead in the short term. The key is to quit while you're ahead.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[fitten]

That is why you need to stay away from all the bad games. Only play on 100%+ payback systems or play where the house don't have the advantage.

Well... if many games have those kinds of payback then casinos wouldn't be in business long. The first rule of casinos is to make money. There are a couple of games where the house doesn't have an advantage but that doesn't mean that the game >= 100% payback.

Re:Of course no law was broken!

[IdleTime]

Not sure if you have been to a casino lately?

Most LV casinos have slot machines that give 100%+ payback. Not saying that you will not lose money, just that you need to chose the games that give the house the least edge over the player.

Others...

[Tiberius_Fel]

I suspect it will encourage others to try new plans. I also suspect the vast majority of them will fail, which probably turns out well for the casinos in the end.

Re:Others...

[wooby]

The technology to accomplish this has existed for some time. I suspect that the vast majority of those pulling this are not failing.

I think this group just "got greedy." If they would have walked away with their 100k (what they won the first day), the elaborate sting which was prepared to bring them down the second day (when they won 1M) would have been a vain effort.

Re:Others...

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect you grossly underestimate the number of people who are out to make a quick buck, and how little encouragement they need (i.e. none) to try anything and everything towards that end.

Re:Others...

[Anonymous Coward]

For every succesful card counter there are probably at least 50 who only think they can count cards.

It will be no different for this. The casinos will not lose any money over this.

Re:Others...

[will_die]

This is just a new take on old ideas.
It use to be done with cameras, the math is rather simple you primarily need the speed of the ball and of the wheel.
The reason you don't see this used most places is that casinos have protected themselves against it by installing "bumps" in the wheel. As the ball slows down it will hit the bumps and its speed and direction will be messed up. Making the initial speeds worthless, to the point that casinos are now automating the wheels so it can be spun at the press of a button.
That UK casinos do not have theses is interesting.

As a historic note, it use to be that roulette allowed you to place bets almost all time the ball was moving. People started to be able to do the math as the ball was slowing down in thier heads. So the requirements that all bets be placed early in the spin was instituted.

Previous Article

[Stubtify]

I do believe this is in the same con which slashdot reported a few months ago:

Roulette Scam

Amazing that they did get to keep the cash, at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.

Re:Previous Article

[dont_think_twice]

at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.

yea, like that SCO story. slashdot really dropped the ball on that one.

Re:Previous Article

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazing that they did get to keep the cash, at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.

I assure you it was by chance. Cmdrtaco probably never read the first article and just happened to present something related to it. How do I know this? He didn't bother to mention the original article in the summary.

Re:Previous Article

[Anonymous Coward]

at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.

What are you talking about? I usually read the same story 5, 6 times a day on slashdot... and that's BEFORE any new information comes out!

U.K. Gambling perceptions

[Anonymous Coward]

As an American living in the U.K. I can say that Britain's perception of their gambling is distorted. Sure poker's big in the U.S., and the last few decades have had a dramatic increase in casinos but, the U.K. seems to think that the rest of the world's addicted to gambling and they're responsible. Blair's mega-casinos; case in point.

The truth is there are slots machines in tons of roadside stops, sports betting shops (ladbrokes, etc) on busy corners, and national lottery ads [adverts] pervasive on t.v. America, (nevada aside) treats gambling much more as a kind of entertainment; in the U.K. it's more about gambling.

I don't doubt there're gambling problems across most cultures, just, I see very little legitimate entertainment in roadside slot machines. It seems to be preying on those with problems.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions

[happyhippy]

UK resident here.
I think its about who'll run them, not of the consequences. The Las Vegas casinos were the ones who started this bill in the UK, and so itll be them who'll get the money.
Most people are seeing that the money will flow out of the UK areas and leaving behind increased crime, poverty and more gambling addicts.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't been to Quebec, have you? Same problem. And lottery ads are all over Canada, all the time, all obnoxious. Here, we get taxed a lot so it's next to impossible for an employee to become rich through hard work only, so the money-lovers turn to lotteries and gambling to feed their millionaire dreams, and the government knows it too.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions

[Anonymous Coward]

Gambling is always about gambling.

Just like drinking alcohol is always about consuming alcohol. You are just one of those "I only drink socially (except when I'm alone)" excuse makers.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions

[aminorex]

It's the New Labour way.

Easy fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Just use hermit crabs as roulette balls.

Woohoo!

Crab skitters unpredictable over to another number....

Doh!

Re:Easy fix

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

Yeah, but then you have the problem of the "ball" jumping up and biting into some poor guy's head. The next thing you know you've got a casino full of zombies running around and eating the cocktail waitresses - and have you ever tried to bludgeon a zombie with a croupier's rake? It's no crowbar, that's for damned sure.

Oh... wait.

"Hermit" crab?

Never mind...

Re:Easy fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Great game ;)

more facts in hungarian press

[boldi]

check my old comment:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1019 59&cid=869 1466

"
Actually their said one beutyful girl was from Hungary with two serb guys. They said they used a mobile-shaped laser-scanning device, but they don't know if it is prohibited.

http://index.hu/tech/tudomany/ritz040323/
in hungarian.

Later they said, that this device cannot exist, as such a device would be least a pc large and needs a calibration of some hours and at least NASA technique to make it.

So at last, they said, that there are a number of people who actually can figure out what is the winning number from the spinning of the wheel by her own eye.

The article also mentions, that after all, they don't really need to now the EXACT target of the ball, if they can close out 2 numbers, they can earn an average of 3% per round.

So anyway, it's a weird weird story with SCI-FI elements..."

New articles, like
http://index.hu/politika/bulvar/kaszcs041205 /

say, they had a laser-scanner build in a phone, the results were sent back to a bigger computer for calculations, finally the results arrive on the phone, play & profit.

money's not free unless

[oliverthered]

With the current cost of copper is costs more to make euro coins that there worth, unless you sell them on as copper.

Re:money's not free unless

[Lars T.]

Wrong.

(player) "Hey! He's cheating!"

[Sensible Clod]

(policeman) Nothing to see here. Move along.

Re:Didn't break the law!

[boldi]

But until they rewrite the rules, are we allowed to take the lab equipment (with trypods, industrial laser sources, generators and the home-brew linux-cluster for calculations) to a casino with the
white coat stuff and funny glasses?

Cheating? Bah!

[standards]

Casino marketing manager:

"There is a portion of the population that think that casinos are stupid waste of time because the odds say that the players CAN'T win.

"Well... time to put a stop to that! Let's tell these smarties that very smart people that study the roulette wheel a lot can predict where the ball will land with some kind of accuracy. We'll suggest that people can tilt the odds in their favor! Haha!

"But we all know that the steps to winning are:

1. Get out casino mentioned in the news and in faux "cheating vegas" documentaries.
2. Encourage these smarties to get themselves to the casino and play some roulette. Those smarties will think they are "honing their predictive capabilities."
3. Profit!

Heck, it worked for Blackjack... let's get them into roulette too!

Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit.

[Anonymous Coward]

" Unless they were using a laser to shoot the ball into the number they wanted, there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S., and I'm heartened to read the U.K. either."

Well the spirit of the game was broken (Game of chance) and it's not fair to those not similiarly equipped (unfair advantage).

But then taking shortcuts to an easy buck, instead of doing the honest work appears to be todays social mantra.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit.

[Anonymous Coward]

"But then taking shortcuts to an easy buck, instead of doing the honest work appears to be todays social mantra."

When the casinos have been rigging the odds in their favour for hundreds of years, I think turnabout is fair play.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit.

[mindstrm]

Sorry, BS.

It's a game of chance, yes, however, saying "it's not fair to those not similarly equipped" is irrelevant. You are not competing against other players at the table in any way. You winning or not has no effect on their ability to play, or to win. You are competing against the casino.

The "spirit" of the game is guessing what's going to come up next based on the information available to you and everyone else at the table. If I am smarter than the guy next to me, is that an unfair advantage? If I count cards at blackjack, is that "unfair"? (No, it's not, but will likely get me asked to not play blackjack anymore at that particular casino)

This is not about fairness or anyhting like that, it's purely about profit. Odds are in favor of the house. This device shifts the odds in favor of the players, therefore, the casinos cannot afford to operate the game if these devices are permitted on the premesis. Plain and simple. The same reason they do not allow card counters to play blackjack for too long, becuase they would continuously lose money.

If there was no law on the books against this, then rightly so they should walk away with the money. The casino should do more to protect itself from this.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit.

[rhakka]

I love this, like taking shortcuts to an easy buck hasn't been the 'social mantra' since we first attached value to anything whatsoever, including food.

You sound like someone yearning for the "good old days". they never existed, tough guy, never ever.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats probaly why they did walk away witht he cash. But try this in vegas, and there is a law aginst it. They've had people using micro camers to try and 'peak' at dealer cards... and a host of other high tech things... so they have the laws in place. On top of that... even if there wasn't a law... 1 mil is a nice reason for them to bury you in the sand.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit.

[ScrewMaster]

Huh. So in other words ... gambling is honest work? The whole point of gambling (from the gambler's perspective) is to find a shortcut to an easy buck. If some happen to be a little too efficient at achieving that, well that's too bad for the casinos. No difference in principle.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit.

[Fallen_Knight]

peaking at the dealers cards IS cheating. this isn't and neither is card counting.

lasers!

[roman_mir]

So how come the security allowed sharks into the casino? ;))))

By the way, the same effect can be achieved with just a camera (in glasses?) taking multiple pictures of the wheel.

So you have 'magic' glasses on, that take pictures, and show to you the most likely numbers to bet on.

Re:lasers!

[roman_mir]

By the way, you should mode the above post as either 'Funsightful' or 'Funformative' :]

Re:lasers!

[Anonymous Coward]

FUN? You want FUN? You've stupidly stumbled onto our system. Now we have to pay you a little visit.

The Mafia

Re:lasers!

[Anonymous Coward]

Boss: Hey roman, I hope I didn't scare you with that whole "The Mafia" gag. It's pretty funny don't cha' think? Roman? Roman? Roman_mir are you there? Hey, where did roman_mir go??
Lefty: Boss, I just heard, he left town.
Boss: Do'h!

Re:lasers!

[Tarcastil]

I wanted sharks with laser GUNS on their HEADS. Not sharks with lasers and computers!

Not the first to try

[DrSkwid]

see
The Eudaemonic Pie

or "The Newtonian Casino" as the UK print was called

How

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone have any information about how this works?

U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[Anonymous Coward]

Gambling is for those who failed at math. Even if the odds were 1:4 that doesn't mean that the fourth ticket would be a winner.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[Hognoxious]

One, in the UK it's maths. Two, it's not maths, it's statistics.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Gambling is for those who failed at math. Even if the odds were 1:4 that doesn't mean that the fourth ticket would be a winner.

That's what they would like you to believe:

Imagine four doors, one leads to the prize jackpot, the other three lead to an empty space.

- You open door #1: empty -- your chances are now 3:1
- You open door #2: empty -- your chances are now 2:1
- You open door #3: empty -- your chances are 1:1
- You open door #4: jackpot

Can you see how they are intentionally misleading you? They would would like you to believe that on opening door #4, your chances have remained 4:1, but this is incorrect; you know the last door will contain the jackpot, you know this because evidence tells tells you the other three are empty. But, if you know this, and it was the inevitable conclusion, how could your chances have ever been 4:1, the answer is they weren't, they always were 1:1, it's the only logical explanation. The fact they are keeping this knowledge from you, is the only reason you will lose, once you understand the fallacy in what they have conditioned you to believe, you will always win.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Is this some new math? Or is it because the jackpot is always behind door #4?

I know of no casino game where you get 4 chances like that, so I don't know if that applies to what we're talking about here.

Theoretically, the casino has no idea what the roulette spin is going to do, and can't predict what people will bet. Why would the odds change like you're suggesting?

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[Timmmm]

Huh? Is this some new math? Or is it because the jackpot is always behind door #4?

Yeah you only get one chance, and that chance was always 4:1. They just show you some empty doors in order to get you to increase your bet.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[tonsofpcs]

Three: Statistics is a subset of Mathematics.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats nice, but in reality casino games have no memory, so the odds do not alter as you seem to think. Apart from some card games, especially Blackjack or other 21 games, which can be beaten using some counting techniques. The odds are still far from 100% in your favour though.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures.

[whorfin]

Umm...You may think that math precludes gambling, but I believe that you'll find many of the more 'serious' gamblers are people well-versed in math, who beleive that their deep ability to quickly calculate their momentary odds provides them an advantage. One of my friends has a masters in mathematics from a highly prestigious university, and is the most dedicated gambler I personally know.

If you don't have an intuitive knowledge of odds calculations, you will likely do poorly at poker, because 'knowing' what your opponents could have, and luring them into betting when *you* know they have a much lower chance of winning than you is the best path to winning.

Re:Didn't break the law!

[radish]

Casino rules != The Law

They probably did break casino rules, and they have almost certainly been banned from going back. But, that doesn't mean they broke the law.

Getting banned

[anothergene]

Sounds like a good way to get yourself banned from every Casino on earth. The house ALWAYS wins, just ask the MIT blackjack team.

Re:Getting banned

[Ithika]

I don't think I'd be too bothered if I couldn't go back into a casino if I knew we just earned 1.3m in two days to be split between 3 people tax free.

In fact, if you have any intelligence at all, once you made that kind of money you wouldn't play another game of chance for high stakes again. Just enjoy life...

Re:Getting banned

[GigsVT]

Gambling winnings in the UK are tax free?

Re:Getting banned

[really?]

Err ... except that 1.3m split three ways is only 400 thou plus change. Here in Vancouver, B.C., that wouldn't even get you a decent house. :-(

Re:Getting banned

[TheGavster]

However, you won't actually have to work for 8-10 years, or you could have a low-stress, part time job while still living decently for a long time.

Re:Getting banned

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

Re:Getting banned

[YrWrstNtmr]

The house ALWAYS wins,

No, just most of the time. If players never won, the casino would soon find itself out of patrons. They need to have a few BIG winners, and a somewhat larger number of very small winners, and a larger number of losers.

51%(house)-49%(players) is enough, given enough volume. I've seen this sign "Our slots pay 98%!" That means they keep 2% overall.

Those flashing lights and bells when you win are there to generate desire to win. "Hey...he did it..maybe I can." And sometimes someone does. Just not you, usually.

Re:Getting banned

[anothergene]

The first time I saw "that our slots pay 98%" I thought wow I can win 98% of the time? Then thought out about it for minute and came to the same conclusion you did. That's ALOT of money. How many people don't make that second jump? That's what keeps the casino industry alive.

The players may win the ocasional pittance or enough to keep you giving them your money, but in the end the house wins. In this case the guys may have walked away with 1.3 million, but that's pretty insignificant given how much money goes into these places. It is enough to make the casinos take notice, ban them and figure out what they are doing and how to stop it though. They may be set for life, or a long while, but good luck every showing their face in any casino. Not that they need to. In the end, the house wins this one(ie they are banned). Same deal with the guys from the MIT black jack club. They can be arrested for trespassing if they set foot in pretty much any casino in the world. They'd probably be taking their life in their hands setting foot in some casinos. i.e. the house wins again.

If the casinos weren't winning they wouldn't be there.

Re:Getting banned

[davidescott]

You should really only play a machine that pays 100% since while you are sitting there you are no doubt getting drinks from the bar and food from the restaurant (and don't forget your penthouse hotel room).

Re:Getting banned

[Deanasc]

That was the old MIT team that got caught. They're not on to the new team yet.

Re:Getting banned

[tonsofpcs]

How so? If it pays 100%, why would they give you comps? they aren't making money from you.
Also, a 100% payoff doesn't mean you get 100% back, it means that for every dollar that goes in, someone gets a dollar back (usually it ends up in the jackpot)

Re:Getting banned

[Da Fokka]

400.000 British Pounds that is, over 1.000.000 Canadian dollars. If that can't buy you a decent house, your standards are waaay to high :P

Re:Getting banned

[YrWrstNtmr]

And which machine might that be? And in what universe does it exist?

Re:Getting banned

[aminorex]

Those are pounds sterling, not loonies.
With 430K sterling you could buy a major
clothing factory in Vietnam and retire on its
profits.

Re:Getting banned

[BasilBrush]

Why not ask one of the many teams that have got away with it over long periods of time. Oh that's right, you can't because you don't know who they are.

Re:Getting banned

[mfg]

Yes, as are game show prizes and lottery winnings.

Re:Getting banned

[really?]

Doing that already. Although, at this rate, I will need to work in a couple/three years. :-(

Re:Didn't break the law!

[TobyIRC]

funny how casino rules aren't the law, but mpaa/riaa/gnaa says something and it somehow becomes the law.

oh, america.

Re:Didn't break the law!

[Deadstick]

Don't know about the UK, but American casinos won't need anything rewritten: the courts have long since held that a casino can ban anyone it sees fit. That would include people waving lasers.

rj

A slightly more detailed article

[EvilMidnightBomber]

It was in a cell phone
And some theory behind it from the previous slashdot article.

Damn...

[jonasw]

it's those frickin' lasers again!

Re:Didn't break the law!

[dustman]

Casino rules != The Law

I'm pretty sure this would have been against the law in Vegas.

This is probably pure ignorance but

[panurge]

Isn't the whole point that this would not be possible if the house had a completely fair wheel? It could not be beyond the wit of engineering to produce a roulette wheel whose outcome, if not random, had such a small deviation from randomness that it would take a very long time to detect it. In any case, provided the non-randomness is below a quite high level, players will lose in the long run. They will lose faster in the US, land of the double-zero, but they will still lose.

If it is possible to win by detecting non-randomness then the wheel, or the process for using it, is bent.

My main objection to casinos is not that they provide a place for gambling - people will do this, and it is probably better that they do this in a way subject to some sort of regulation - but that reported incidents suggest they do not run fair games, and that the stacking of the odds on e.g. fruit machines is probably intended to fuel gambling addiction. It's like the alcohol industry producing alcoholic fruit drinks to get kids hooked, or just about any strategy of the tobacco industry. If the casino gets caught by someone using statistical analysis, the law should not protect them from their own dishonesty.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[Superfreaker]

It could not be beyond the wit of engineering to produce a roulette wheel whose outcome, if not random, had such a small deviation from randomness that it would take a very long time to detect it.

Shhhh! They did, it's called the 0. (you did actually reference it also)

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[rhakka]

they don't have to guess the right slot via this mechanism to win. They just have to narrow down the possible choices in order to tilt the odds in their favor.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[bigbigbison]

I can't speak for casinos in other areas, but the casinos in Indiana, where I worked for 2+ years, are heavilly regulated. The only industry in Indiana that has more regulations is the nucular industry according to the casino. As you note, it is impossible to have a completely random wheel. I mean, Indiana casinos are on boats and even though they stay docked, they still are actual boats and I'm sure the weight of 2-3 thousand customers and employees is enough to shift the boat ever so slightly, so it is impossible.

Slot machines and card games, however, while stacked in the favor of the house because if they weren't it wouldn't be hard for employees to figure out how to beat the system and if a casino is afraid of anything, it is the employees cheating either to help a friend win or to get money themselves. At a casino the cameras are looking at the employees just as much as the customers. More than once surveilance called us up asked us what we were doing.

And again, at least in Indiana, if you aren't tampering with equipment, there is no law against using gambling aides. However, if you get caught you will get kicked out and probably banned.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[MyNameIsFred]

...Isn't the whole point that this would not be possible if the house had a completely fair wheel?...

Your preception of what they did is wrong. What makes the roulette wheel work is that no one, with the naked eye, can measure the initial conditions well enough to predict the outcome. From the articles discussed in various links, the group apparently used a laser to measure spin rate and other variables when the roullette wheel was set in motion. Then a computer estimated the final position of the ball. They had a brief window in which to do this. Bets must be placed before the wheel spins three times. If the reports are true, they could do this on a completely fair wheel.

In other words, they were NOT looking at long term averages and saying, for this wheel, the ball lands an unusual number of times on 6. They were looking at the initial conditions of the spin and used to physics to say on the spin, the ball will likely land here. They reduced the odds from 1 in 32 to 1 in 6.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[garglblaster]

the group apparently used a laser to measure spin rate and other variables when the roullette wheel was set in motion. Then a computer estimated the final position of the ball. They had a brief window in which to do this. Bets must be placed before the wheel spins three times. If the reports are true, they could do this on a completely fair wheel.

Now _this_ is the most admirable feat I'v heard of in a long time..!

Kudos to the team that managed to do somthing like this

This is money well earnt!

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[glesga_kiss]

It could not be beyond the wit of engineering to produce a roulette wheel whose outcome, if not random, had such a small deviation from randomness that it would take a very long time to detect it.

It's been done, against the house! I remember reading about an engineer that used the non-random aspect of the real-world imperfect table to locate a table within the casino that had a bias. He used this and may have broken the bank.

Jeez, just googled for it, found it! From this page:

In the late nineteenth century, English engineer William Jaggers took 1.5 million francs from the Grand Casino in Monte Carlo. He had hired six clerks to record numbers from the roulette wheels for one month to find that they weren't true random number generators. He played the biased numbers for a long stretch and cashed big-time! If he could do it, so can others. This is very very tough, needing a lot of casino experience. Casinos nowadays take measures against this.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what routete wheels you look at but There are two styles of Roulette Wheels. The "American" wheel which has 36 numbers plus the 0 and the 00. The French or European wheel, has 36 numbers and only a single 0. The latter is found mostly in European and South American casinos and is seldom seen in this The United States. Most players and croupiers believe that the numbers 1 through 35 are arranged on the rim of the wheel in a haphazard manner, except that the red and black numbers alternate. There is nothing haphazard about the arrangement! An attempt has been make to alternate low, high, odd and even numbers, as well as the red and black colors, in such a way that each group of numbers, and each color is spaced out in a mathematically balanced fashion. A perfect mathematical balance is not possible, since the sum of the numbers 1 through 36 is 666, and the 18 odd numbers add to only 342. In order to attain the best possible mathematical balance, roulette manufacturers use the following arrangement: The numbers 0 and 00 are directly opposite each other on the wheel head rim separated on each side by 18 numbers. The 0 pocket is between two black-numbered pockets and the colors alternate in both directions around the wheel, ending in two red pockets, one on each side of the 00. Odd numbers alternate with even numbers. In order to get the best possible distribution of high and low numbers, the sum of each two successive numbers of the same color must equal 37. There are two exceptions, the numbers 9 and 28 and the numbers 10 and 27 which are not the same color, as each pair is made up of a red and black number.

This give either 37 or 38 numbers. The payoff is (in the us) 36:1 but the odds are 1:38 or 1:37

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[countach]

I would have thought having the roulette wheel on a boat would make it *more* random rather than less random. Any unpredictable movement you can insert into the equation is good for randomness.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course the natural conclusion of this should it become common is to disallow bets after the wheel begins spinning. Exploit early, exploit often, as the saying goes.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[panurge]

Precisely. I didn't spell this out, but if I remember rightly, in French casinos the croupier would say "Rien ne va plus" BEFORE dropping the ball.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably too late in the discussion for this, but I have to chime in, never-the-less.

Your point is interesting.

There is no such thing as a "random" wheel. (Infact, one can argue that randomness itself, does not exist, but thats a debate for another time). Well, at least, that current roulette wheels are no random. What they are, is a system sufficiently complex to predict that their outcome appears random.

What does that mean? It's a ball, spinning on a wheel. The laws/rules of physics will govern where it stops. In actuallity, those same laws apply to a dice roll, and a coin toss. Of course, those laws are so complex, that it is virtually impossible to be able to predict the outcome.

However, in the specific case of roulette, there are a whole slew of possible outcomes (36-38?). So if we can merely predict a subset of these, since the game's odds are delicately balanced, we obtain a large advantage.

If using the balls initial speed and location, we can perform calculations that approximate the physical laws governing the outcome, we can eliminate some possibilities (eg. "at that speed and location, chances are the ball will land in this quarter of the wheel"... it's all we need.

So in summary. Roulette wheel is not "truly" random. (Can anything really be??) It's outcome is a based on a system so complex that it is extremely difficult to predict, so that it appears random. Using this laser based system, they can partially "solve" that complex system, to not predict exactly where the ball will land, but maybe get a good idea of the general area it will be. In the case of roulette's odds, that is tantamount to "winning".

(*Note: It's interesting to note that the roulette wheel is organized "red/black/red/black" possibly to prevent this sort of analysis in the first place. If half the wheel was black, and the other physical half red, then this system would be ALOT more effective. I imagine that the organization of the wheel, and the setup of the board (and which bets you can take, eg entire rows, columns, etc) has been mathematically determined so that numbers easiest to bet on together (on the board) are furthest apart on the wheel. So that being able to predict wheel location, still does not easily lend itself to betting strategy.

Aggies

Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene

[Matarick]

Q: Double O Seven, here is your ring and watch.
Bond: Why on earth would you want me to wear such a bobble? You know red isn't my color and this watch looks like something from a crackerjack box.
Q: Commander Bond, this is no ordinary ring and watch.
Bond: What does this ring act as a glass cutter and this watch emits fatal eletrical shocks. Are you really running out of ideas?
Q: No, since this mission is gambling and you are our best gambler. This ring and watch makes the task of winning the 50,000,000 Euros a whole lot easier. This ring acts as a faint lazer while this watch is actually an LCD screen. Both are connected to a highly specialized radio signal. While most people only see the watch from aside (turns the watch left and right with a slight 90 degree tilt); at only your viewpoint you are able to see the scanner at work. This calculates the speed of the roulette spin and you can place constant and certain bets all the time.
Bond: Do you think my keen gambling sense is wearing down by age?
Q: Heavens no, I just want to make sure that you will win the 50,000,000 Euros and breaking Le Chiffre's bank. SMERSH needs to feel the agony of debt and you are the man to do it.
Bond: What if they find out that I am 'cheating'. You know that I have a repuation to keep up.
Q: You went through kidnapping, torture, and even the loss of your wife. You can certainly handle the Casino Royale's security.
(I already know that Bond and Le Chiffe faced off each other at baccarat instead but I want to make it revelant to the story)

Re:Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Oh. Ok.

BTW, it's crackerback jox, you clod!

Re:Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene

[Tim Browse]

Q: And one more thing, Bond. Take a look at this chair with a hole in the seat we've been working on...
Bond: I hardly think I'll need to know about that, Q.

Re:Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene

[iggymanz]

Surely you remember the 1971 "Diamonds are Forever" scene at the Whyte House Casino as Q is testing his "Slot Machine Decoder Ring" and drains the jackpot out of a few machines with a smile on his face?

I want one

[sodul]

Anyone selling this scanner on Ebay ?
I would need to receive the item before my next trip to Vegas.
Also does it come with the beautiful hungrarian girl ? It might help with security when the casino realize you can actually win.

Re:I want one

[Anonymous Coward]

sodul
Also does it come with the beautiful hungrarian girl ? It might help with security when the casino realize you can actually win.

GIS for "beautiful hungarian girl":

Your search - beautiful hungarian girl - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
- Try fewer keywords.

Re:I want one

[PyroMosh]

Turn off SafeSearch.

Re:I want one

[Anonymous Coward]

No no, the girl comes after you start winning. Trust me.

Read the "Eudaemonic Pie" by Thomas Bass

[JT27278]

This approach to beating roulette was first approached back in the 1980s. The Eudaemonic Pie is a classic hacker tale and should not be missed if you can find a copy.

what unfair moderation

[Anonymous Coward]

parent post gets modded down. Reply that misconstrues the parent gets modded up. wtf

Now if only ....

[bizitch]

they would let me keep my slot machine winnings I got with that HERF gun ....

UCSC, not MIT

[Hognoxious]

The roulette shoe computer is here.. UCSC, MIT ... that's near enough for government work.

Not to be negative,

[mindstrm]

but stories about how "the only time I played I put in $2 and made $20" help fuel that gambling addiction.

It's the few people who win at casinos that give the rest hope.

Re:Not to be negative,

[b00m3rang]

So, you're saying that an anecdote about playing a few times and then stopping is going to promote problem gambling more than one about playing every day?

People don't need to hear other people's sucess stories to get hooked on anything. Trust me.

Re:Not to be negative,

[HybridJeff]

" People don't need to hear other people's sucess stories to get hooked on anything. Trust me."

Yeah, but if they hear alot of failure stories they're more likely to be discouraged from doing it in the first place.

Re:Not to be negative,

[HybridJeff]

Thought I should add that even though I think failure stories help to discourage gambling, that doesnt mean we should censor out the winning ones.

My opinion?

[Gothic_Walrus]

Good for them. They were intelligent enough to make it work, and they've earned what they won.

Was it fair? No. But it's theirs now.

Re:Didn't break the law!

[geoffspear]

No, Title 18 is the law whether any trade group ever mentions it.

Funny how you can say something completely moronic and it gets modded down, but if you mention RIAA you're suddenly "insightful".

Spin

[6Yankee]

Of course this could be Labour spin...

Spin. Roulette. Heh.

Revenue for the government

[cryptor3]

Of course this could be Labour spin to try and get people excited about the idea of cheating at mega casinos.

Can somebody tell me what this means? Why would Labour (which I assume to mean the UK Labour Party) want to get people excited about cheating at mega casinos?

On one hand, any publicity is good publicity. But more specifically, letting these people keep the money may give the average person the impression that maybe they can try their hand at a laser-roulette scam, or perhaps maybe a card counting scam, or... etc. But casinos are profitable for a reason, and even if a few people succeed at cheating, the vast majority will lose money -- more than enough to make up for the cheaters.

And more publicity and this sense of "Do YOU want to try your luck?" brings in more business for the casinos, which would mean more revenue for the government through taxing or however they make money off the casinos.

Dabo!!!

[anagama]

Dabo!!! Do I get a girl?

Re:Dabo!!!

[anagama]

So I'm a whiner. But "offtopic"? Dabo has a spinning wheel, money bets, and odds in favor of the house. Seems pretty on topic to roulette to me. And those Dabo girls - you wonder how some of those outfits got on television. Sweet visions.

The trick is you both winning

[SmallFurryCreature]

Break the bank and you draw attention. Be tonights lucky winner and you walk away with a small fortune. The house doesn't always win. If you think that your an idiot who needs to study basic economy. The house wins more then it loses. If it wins a million but loses half a million to you it is still making a profit. That is the entire trick of running a casino. Making sure that people do win but that the house wins a little bit more.

So an individual can win and casino's even like that. It makes the rest of the customers who are loosing feel better.

THis is so sweet!!

[Foktip]

THis is what happens whe you dont pay mathematicians or engineers enough. THey go and do something insane, and everyone else doesnt know what to make of it, heheheh. Seriously though, developing that kind of program - to calculate the precise number of rotations on a spinning wheel - is the perfect example of high level engineering. I've done many questions like that only instead of Gambling wheels, it was vehicle wheels. Once you know the accelleration and the velocity at time 0, you just use standard energy equations. If you want to get fancy with your program you could figure out the oil used and the shaft used, and add in the known values for friction, etc (all this is available in charts/tables). THen all you need is the time for one full rotation, the size of the wheel and its weight (initial conditions) which you could find after two test runs with the laser velocity/accelleration finder. After that, you could make, say, a device that all you do is click a button when it starts spinning, click again after half a rotation or a full rotation, then it displays the winning number on a screen. Then, if you have an electrical engineer around, you could make into its own embedded device with a screen, about the size of a watch. Voila - El Cheaterwatch. The best thing since the Black Box. Who needs the ability to make free phone calls when you can win millions of dollars gambling, booyah.

Re:THis is so sweet!!

[HumanTorch]

Sounds like a book I read. Although it was mentioned earlier in this thread, you really should read the Eudamonic Pie. Its about a bunch of techies (can't remember their exact specialties, although one was into Chaos theory) built a computer-in-a-shoe that they operated with their toes. They would click when you described and then a braille-like display embedded in the sole would tell them the number. I believe they eventually lost their nerve after a few tries and gave it up - although the casino couldn't detect the device, they could tell *something* was up just by their body language, excessive sweating, etc. If I were casinos, I would just prohibit betting after the wheel starts spinning.

Re:THis is so sweet!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do me a favor, and everytime you type a capital "T," count to two. It's not THat hard.

They let cheaters keep the money???

[Anonymous Coward]

So what's next, oh wise British lawmakers? Marking cards on Carribean Draw legal? Pre-arranging with the dealer to load a baccarat shoe with front-faces legal? Soft-spinning a Sicbo wheel legal? Collusion in poker legal?

These are cheaters, plain and simple. Why would we think them any different?

Re:They let cheaters keep the money???

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this cheating? They didn't change the outcome of the game, they just predicted it using information that was available to everyone.

It would be like saying that people who bet on horse racing is cheating because they use stats to know who is most likely to win. The only reason this is not allowed in Vegas is because casinos like to keep the odds in their favor.

Re:They let cheaters keep the money???

[darthwader]

No, I don't think it's plain and simple.

The goal of roulette is to try to guess where the ball will land, and to bet accordingly. These people simply used technology to make better guesses than everyone else.

There is a huge difference between people who break the rules, and people who exploit a loophole in the rules.

If the rules clearly stated (like the do in Nevada) that you cannot use electronic devices to predict the outcome of a game, then they would be cheating. But if there is no rule about it, then it's not cheating. It's just being creative.

Many slashdotters (myself included) are impressed because it's people who find loopholes in the rules that make progress for society.

Here's an extremely contrived example. There is no "rule" of nature that explicitly states "man cannot fly". For centuries, people saw that all flying things had wings, humans didn't have wings, and concluded that it was impossible, against the rules of nature. People even made pithy comments like "If God had intended man to fly, He would have given us wings."

As smarter people looked at the rules of how the universe worked, they found things like gravity, buoyancy, Bernoulli's law (something to do with gas pressure and velocity), but no actual law of nature that says "humans can't fly". Lots of laws that made it really challenging, but nothing to say it's impossible. So the clever people started to look for loopholes in the rules, and devised artifical wings. And now we fly further, higher and faster than the birds. This is because people were willing to ignore the assumed rules, and only focus on the rules that are actually there.

Now what often happens when someone is good enough to exploit a loophole in the rules, is that new rules are created (not in nature, but in casinos). So I wouldn't be surprised to find new laws passed that makes what they did illegal for the next people who try it. --- Personally, I think it would be a badge of honour to have a law created to patch a loophole that you found and exploited.

(On another note, here's an interesting theological/moral question: Assume that the lottery rules clearly state that it's illegal to affect the outcome of the game, but don't mention prediction the random outcome. Assume that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. If you pick 6 numbers at random for the lottery, and then you pray to God to make your numbers the winning numbers (and you win), did you cheat? If you pray for the right numbers, see the 6 numbers in a dream, and you then play those numbers the next day and win, did you cheat?)

Re:They let cheaters keep the money???

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't influence the outcome. They didn't interfere with the gaming equipment.

Wrong!

[nasor]

" Unless they were using a laser to shoot the ball into the number they wanted, there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S., and I'm heartened to read the U.K. either."

In the U.S. it's illegal to use and sort of electronic computer to 'assist' with casino gambling. The law's main purpose is to prevent card counters from using digital devices to help keep track of which cards have been played, but the law would certainly cover this sort of thing as well.

About Diamonds are Forever

[Matarick]

Come to think about it, it was rather funny. Also, didn't one of the Bond girls used that ring?

Warning!!!

[failedlogic]

Do not try this (using laser pointers that is... ) with the Russian "variety" of Roulette. While its sure to improve your aim and your chances of "winning" you might find yourself losing out on life a bit!

Re:Warning!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia...

Sorry, don't have my account here, butjust had to do it. :)

Magnets

[kf6auf]

A couple of randomly placed magnets underneath the roulette wheel by the house could defeat this sort of technology, at least for a while - but they'd have to be weak enough and placed not-quite-randomly to not be noticed by anything other than a computer. Force the computer to take too long to return a calculation so that bets cannot be place.

Or they could use electromagnets on a randomly cycling pattern so that any given spin some of them are off and some are on, making the computer simply observe for a large number of spins before it can do anything - and then maybe change the pattern every hour.

Re:Magnets

[YrWrstNtmr]

The casino can't (and doesn't need to) do that. In the US anyway. The Vegas Gaming Comission takes a very dim view of rigged tables.

The house already has an edge on the odds...no need to influence the wheel more. Just ban electronic prediction methods. And being a private business, they can do that.

Now do this with a stock camera phone

[Animats]

Now that the basic principles are understood, it should be possible to reprogram a camera phone with a fast processor to do the same job.

It has to find and register the wheel, which is an object of known form. Lane Hawk could do this. It then has to find and track the ball, which is not too hard (try the Lucas-Kanade feature tracker in OpenCV) and extract position and velocity. Given that information, prediction is possible.

Now that 3D game capability is going into camera phones, there's enough processing power in phones to consider this. It can all be done with passive sensors. You don't need lasers.

Re:Now do this with a stock camera phone

[BasilBrush]

It'd never work. The programmable side of smartphones are not and never will be real time. You can request a photo to be taken, and you'll receive the picture back but you can't say with any degreee of accuracy when the picture was taken. Even if you made an equivalent but real time device in a phone shell, it's still the case that laser positioning will be more accurate and faster to analyse than image processing.

Re:Didn't break the law!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your insecurity makes you cute. Can I fuck your throathole?

not really

[Anonymous Coward]

Two factors will screw things up:

1) Inconsistencies in the roulette wheel itself. No wheel is going to be perfect. Therefore when the ball hits those imperfections, your laser calculation magic is going to be off.

2) The spin on the ball is going to alter behavior. The spin won't be the same every time. Also, since the ball is shiny metal with no markings, the spin will be rather hard, if not impossible to detect.

Maybe you can improve your odds with such a device, maybe not. Better bring along a good sized wad of cash to cover yourself on the losing rounds.

Old news,

[Anonymous Coward]

some spanish family do similar years ago

http://www.casadellibro.com/fichas/fichabiblio/0 ,1 094,2900000940626,00.html

http://elmundolibro.elmundo.es/elmundolibro/2003 /1 0/24/no_ficcion/1066995551.html

LIDAR? Cellular data? Glass from wheel?

[telemonster]

So were they using a LIDAR setup embedded in a cell phone to clock the speed of the ball, then relay the results via CDPD, GSM or analog modem over the cell phone to an offsite computer, which would send back the results?

I say let them keep the money. Their hack was passive, and didn't in any way touch the casino equipment.

During the travel channel/TLC's week long advertisements for Vegas, they run stories about crime in the Casinos. They mentioned a PI type confiscated software that could predict the numbers in Keno from some cheats. He then used it himself to beat the odds, basically correctly guessing a lotto number to the exact number. The Casino immediately went into investigating it since someone won (someone else said they don't like to give out money, the other person was right) and matched him to his job to his winnings, and he got popped.

Basically the casino was resetting the Keno machine every night, which throws off it's RNG and makes things predictable.

I've kind of got the attitude that if it wasn't for the fact he confiscated the software from someone else, he should have been awarded the money and not be given a jail sentence. It was passive.

This story almost makes it worthwhile to break out like 6 PDAs and three different color laser pointers beaming them on a wheel, with a ton of wires. Get a friend to videotape the casino thugs dragging you outside and beating you.

Camera phone?

[khrtt]

Well, you'd need a frame rate and resolution higher than a camera phone can provide...quite yet. I bet you could do well with just speed and position inputs, and you can get those off of a camera picture. The ball is small, and has little spin energy, not enough to throw you off. The random bouncing off the barriers between the numbers is much worse, and is hardly predictable.

But you don't need a lot of accuracy. If you predict 1-in-36 correctly, you're breaking even. Predict 1-in-30, and you'll need a pickup truck to haul the cash home.

Re:Cheating? Bah!

[BasilBrush]

God knows how you got modded informative for that crap. There's a well documented history of people using devices to cheat in casinos.

I won in vegas

[uglomera]

exactly $126 on the roulette. :)

but you are right, it is a negative outcome game. i was just lucky.

Simple rules change

[Anonymous Coward]

Even allowing electronic assistance, the casino can get their edge back with a simple rule change: all bets are frozen as soon as the ball is in play. The scanner relies on clocking the ball speed, and cuing the bettors before bets closed at third pass of the ball. It's akin to casinos shuffling the deck for each hand of 21, which puts the card counters out of business.

A less ethical method is for the casino to randomly switch the balls for each round, having an assortment of light and heavy balls. Or for the dealer to learn how to put a little "English" on the ball, using back spin and top spin to randomize the ball's time-of-flight (it doesn't take much).

If all else fails, the casino can deal with the big winners the old fashioned way: switch on the hidden electro-magnet hidden under the table. Any crooked gambling house knows how to rig a roulette wheel!

Re:Cheating? Bah!

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work for a management company that included casino operations.

The company authorized interviews to a couple film makers so they could interview our management about "cheats". The interviews were authorized because it makes business sense for people to be interested in gambling.

The only cheating that ever went on involved internal theft. The games are designed so that the odds are always in the houses favor.

All of the TV shows showing card counters and other forms or predictive analysis always dismiss how the games are actually played in the casino. If you include how a game table is managed, you'll find that these methods of improving your odds results in the favor going to the house.

No exceptions. Casinos aren't that stupid.

Online Casinos

[Nom du Keyboard]

Now how do I make it work with my online casino?

Problems with land shortage in the UK?

[raehl]

Become a religious zealot and move to the US!

wow

[XxXoldsaltXxX]

within the month, i bet most of all the gamblers with knowledge of electronics will have their shot at making one :P

Re:Cheating? Bah!

[BasilBrush]

Complete crap. You haven't the first idea. Try reading "The Newtonian Casino" or any of the card counting books from Edward Thorpe onwards. You are clearly uninformed.

Once casinos catch on to a particular form of cheating, they obviously close down on it. That's why there are multi-deck shoes for dealing blackjack, and huge amounts of video and radio detection equipment and facial recognition tech in the pit in the first place. But there always have been cheats (or rather creative individuals) that find loopholes and abuse them until the goalposts move again. There are people cheating in the casinos right now working as teams.

MOD TROLL DOWN

[Bodysurf]

it is perfectly legal because the law of nevada say they can. the courts will side with the house in nevada also. they can do what ever they want without fear of breaking the law (because the law says they can)

STUPID TROLL

Eudaemonic Pie (light spoiler)

[The Pim]

This was a decent book, a precursor to the now more famous "Bringing Down the House", featuring the same brainy, persistent hacker types looking for an exploitable edge. It was a bit of a let down, in that the kids never really made the system pay off on a large scale, despite proving the concept. But the reasons for failing to make the big score are interesting: One, interpersonal issues, which take the story into California hippy culture. And two, the challenge, which slashdot readers will recognize, of pushing immature technology to its limits. These guys were putting a computer into the sole of a shoe and using digital radio communications in the 70s! The night at the table with modest successes interrupted by repeated electrocutions was precious.

Re:Cheating? Bah!

[Anonymous Coward]

card counting is NOT cheating.

it is not illegal either.

card counting is a skill. using a device to calculate or trick a machine is cheating, and rightfully illegal.

Absolutely Fair!

[VidEdit]

Was it fair? Absolutely. They won using only the observable odds. Casinos can fix this problem easily. All they have to do is stop all betting before the wheel is spun--not blame the players.

Once again, Casinos want to blame winners for the fact that the casino games are winnable. This same problem applies to card counters. They only use the observed cards to calculate the odds and raise their chances of winning just a fraction. The outcome? Casinos throw card counters out and place their names and photos on a national black list shared with other casinos!

Baring players just for winning is dishonest and should be illegal. Casinos predicate their marketing on the idea that players can win, but the casino practices show that this is, in part, a false promise. Casinos should fix games that can be won rather than cheating the public by baring them from playing.

Re:They don't do that now?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought all bets were frozen once the ball was in play, at least in Vegas casinos.

Re:Didn't break the law!

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a chance that it was not, but it will be next month.

so you favor "whorehouses" then?

[Shadowlore]

After all they provide a place for sex - people will do this, and it is probably better that they do this in a way subject to some sort of regulation.

To regulate:
To make easier for one party to gain an advantage over the other they would not otherwise get. Usually, the party that gets control of the lawmakers is the recipient of any benefits of "regulation" -- Bill Anderson

It's like the alcohol industry producing alcoholic fruit drinks to get kids hooked, or just about any strategy of the tobacco industry. ... or prostitues learning that one trick with the tongue or any strategy of the escort industry.

I'm in the Gaming Business right now

[AEC216]

I have been dealing most of the house games (Roulette, Blackjack, Carribean, 3 Card poker,..) now, out in a St. Louis, MO, for about 6 monthes. I am on a "make money for a new degree" detour. The midwest hasn't been to kind lately.

A wheel dealer with about 1-2 years experience, is generally good enough to hit quadrants (groups of 9 #'s) and sectors (groups of 6 #'s). The casino I work for wants about a spin every 90 seconds under a full table (12 players). If you are a dealing during busy hours all the time (evenings) that is still 1200 spins a week.

I know of 2 dealers, each with about 10 years of experience, that are capable of hitting numbers about 1/3 times.

Remember to tip your dealer. We are more than happpy to give away the casino's money if you help us too.

If you are cheap asshole, don't be surprised when they change out dealers on you. All of a sudden your numbers stop hitting, (anything you play will stop hitting).

Interesting note, The board ( the display of the numbers that have come up in the last 10-15 spins) is ranked the biggest improvement in gambling technology in 20 years by most casinoes.
"Oh, number is going to hit next"
Suckers love flashing, colorful lights. (Slots fall here too)
The roulette table has no memory, each spin is a new event.

Oh, the stories I could tell after only 6 monthes, I really have a bad out look on the human race as whole from these experiences.

It is fun to play a game that you are statically stacked to win for 8 hours a day! If I don't like you , I take your money.

Clarification of 100+% games...

[Arkhan]

I think you may have misunderstood his comment.

Many casinos run games like poker, where you play against the other *players*, not the house. The house still wins, because they take a rake off the top. The players (in aggregate) still lose, because the house ends up with more money than it started with...

However, any individual player can consistently win, and Vegas doesn't care - he's taking money from other players, not the house.

(That said, there are some slots that give >100% return. Just not many.)

A Third Exception

[Allaran]

I believe there are certain Video Poker machines which have a tiny edge on the casino as well. Since Video Poker machines are required to be a random distribution of cards, the pay table (how much each hand is worth) determines how good/bad a machine is, rather than the machine's internal settings. Most are terrible, but there are a few that can have a positive expectation, given perfect play (knowing the right choice to make for every hand). Even then, the casino is counting on the fact that few if any players will be able to approach perfect play close enough to gain the positive edge. I started playing this instead of Blackjack because they will let you consult your strategy chart while you are playing. Plus, the dealer can't reshuffle the deck if the count gets good.

House Edge, even bets, and the Gambler's Ruin

[gfoot]

Actually, outside bets have a slightly lower house edge than all other bets on a European Roulette table, because if 0 comes in you back half of your outside-stake bet. So you have 18/37 chance of losing your bet, 18/37 chance of doubling your bet, and 1/37 chance of losing half of your bet. I think that halves the house edge. If they returned your entire bet, then the game would be even. But of course they won't do that. ;) I have never played at an American casino, so I don't know if similar rules apply there.

Regardless of odds and house edges, the casinos do tend to have another advantage: overall, they usually have more money than the players. Generally in a gambling game, if either party runs out of money the game must stop. Since the casino has so much more money than the average punter, there's a much higher probability that the punter will run out of money first, regardless of the specific odds and house edge (if any) of the game.

The Facts about ROULETTE COMPUTERS!

[markhowy]

Hi there folks Roulette Computers are legal in most parts of the world! They are of course illegal in Nevada, NJ and California due to the exploits of the team in the 1980's which was well documented in > 'The Eudeamonic Pie; By Thomas A Bass, an excellent read by the way! Roulette Computer History goes way back to 1955 when the first WEARABLE Computer was proposed for beating the game of Roulette by Edward O Thorp(Author of Beat the Dealer) and Claude Shannon( The guy responsible for communications Protocol, without him the internet would not exist). A Analogue device was constructed in 1966, but failed practically because of the limitation of the hardware. URL Also around the same time, Russian Teams were developing Roulette computers, some of them gaining around 20% advantage consistantly. Then the 'Eudeamonic Pie' was set up, a team of ambitious young scientists, electronic buffs, programmers, mathematicians to create the ulternate dream, a computer that could predict the outcome of the game before the ball lands! http://www.thomasbass.com/work2.htm Heres another team that did it in the early 1980's> http://nowscape.com/blk/roul/index.html Later the software of the Eudaemonic Pie was found to have a small bug in the code which had caused the Kim Computer to behave badly and not return the correct predictions. The Code was later taken over by Fred Britain and Laurence Scott ( Visual Ballistics using only your eyesight) and revamped and set nito a block of resin, now called Copernicus, this gadget had a massive edge on the old style wheels with deep pockets which created hardly no scatter! Eventually it had its days, with only a handful of units around, some selling for $20,000 dollars a time, its History came to an abrupt end whith the introduction of modern wheels with shallower pockets, Casinos setting their wheels level and checking for titled wheels. All othe casinos were wise to the fact that tilted wheels were enabling these Roulette Computers to gain a massive edge and for the Roulette Computer operator to set up pretty quickly. We then had Newton Roulette appear in London, selling their system on a Compaq PDA, although the system never actually worked, they fizzled in just over 6 months. Who am I, I am the owner of 'Phophecy', now in my 20th Year of Research And Development of Roulette Prediction Software and Roulette Computers! I have taken it to new heights, I can play within around 4 spins on ALL wheels, play level, tilted, continuous ball changes, alternate and sporadic with different Croupiers and still obtain an edge of around 100% on the exact number( On average I will hit 1 in 18 on the exact number), or chosing one of my Sector playing programs, between 40%-70% on a sector! Anyone wanting the Roulette Mathematics can obtain it for free at my site and build their own Roulette Computer if they wish! I am Proud to be a NERD! Regards Mark Anthony Howe http://predictroulette.com/