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HP Sells Cheap FreeDOS PC in China
Johan writes "HP has started selling a Yuan 3,999 ($483) PC in China. The cool part is that it runs FreeDOS! Not sure why FreeDOS was chosen, but I suspect they expect it to be replaced with Linux or Windows by the user. By not having to pay for Windows, they are able to include better hardware. They probably didn't want the support burden of bundling the PC with a Linux distribution." And while we're on China, Cringely has some prognostication and speculation about IBM's sale of their PC division to a Chinese company.
Is $483US really cheap in China?
I am having a hard time imagining FreeDOS with the chinese character set, if thats what is used.
Anytime a major vendor starts shipping affordable (and hopefully quality) consumer boxes that are free from the Microsoft tax, I get that warm fuzzy feeling.
Then again I suppose my G4 iBook counts too.
I think the reporter has never used FreeDOS, nor knows what it is (surprise surprise).
FreeDOS is very useful, but for the vast majority of users, it's not an "alternative" to Windows. It's an alternative to MS-DOS!
Er, it doesn't say if it includes a monitor. If it doesn't then that is a lousy price. Both HP and Dell sell their low end PC's for $350 here in the U.S. Even with a flatscreen the dell cost is $539 with printer and XP Home edition. That for a P4 3.8 ghz with 236megs ram.
If the per capita income of China is $1,000 U.S., I think ~$500 is going to be expensive. On the other hand, HP is probably targeting the city folks who are making a bit more. (Trying to find those figures...)
"Losers in the deal are HP, Intel, and Sun. Especially Sun. Those guys are in trouble."
Especially HP. Those guys are the losers. Their hardware is cheaply made and getting worse by the month while their main competitor Dell is still chugging along eating up the market. It's too bad HP won't spin off the printer division (the only people in that company with a decent product) so they can make a profit.
Well, actually it didn't come out on my summary - but I know that HP did consider Linux, but ended up not to go with it for cost reasons. I am not a Linux zealot. I don't even run Linux myself. I'm an OSX zealot.
>> They probably didn't want the support burden of bundling the PC with a Linux distribution.
> Have you considered they might prefer FreeDOS, and deem it the best solution compared with other alternatives such as Linux,
Uh, no, you are both wrong. They were just tired of hearing all the rinux jokes.
Sure, you can install Windows or Linux on these...but an hour later, you'll just have to reinstall.
They are competing with local white box vendors selling machines running pirated copies of windows. They can't actually preinstall pirated Windows themselves, because between being rather large, and being based in the US, they would be an easy target to be sued, but they can put a token OS that nobody in their right mind will actually use, ensuring it is replaced by the user with an almost-free pirated copy of Windows.
Open Source Sushi
I suspect they expect it to be replaced with Linux or Windows by the user....They probably didn't want the support burden of bundling the PC with a Linux distribution.
Oh, come on. Don't be such a zealot. Lets get real. How hard is it for a vendor to install linux? They are going to replace it with a pirated copy of windows. Yeah, so slashdot is a site for (open source) geeks, but this is just going too far. This is just plain lying. BTW, I live in a developing and there already a LOT of PCs by compaq which have freedos or some other DOS. I KNOW what these PCs are used for. They are just replaced with a pirated copy of Windows. Trust me. I know.
The next thing you know, slashdot will be reporting in a few days that the Linux desktop share has exceeded that of Windows desktop share.
pirating is rampant in China. Is HP thinking the PC will probably get a pirated copy of Win-XP, but it is not their fault if it does?
Oh, c'mon, he has a point. FreeDOS is a nice OS, but for a modern computer sold to "normal" people it's simply unusable. Like i said in an earlier post, IMHO they bundle FreeDOS instead of "HP-Linux" because it spares themselves of offering support.
Breaking ties with Microsoft and OEM bundled Windows (which, realistically, will end up installed in most of those machines one way or another) might also have something to do with it.
Huh? FreeDOS is just an MS-DOS knock-off. Sure its useful for boot disks / etc - but it doesn't offer a real platform for applications.
So for $483 your getting a system that can only run old DOS apps? (assuming you don't install something else...)
WordPerfect 5.1 will run just as well on a $30 386sx from the thrift store as it would on a modern low-end system.
I'm having trouble making sense of this... maybe there's still a big market for DOS applications in China?
Here, in India, there are already a lot of PCs sold by compaq that have freedos or caldera dos installed.
I suspect they expect it to be replaced with Linux or Windows by the user. By not having to pay for Windows, they are able to include better hardware. They probably didn't want the support burden of bundling the PC with a Linux distribution.
Or perhapse they simply didn't want to pay the Microsoft tax? Sure many people use linux, but lets be honest here, the majority of those who buy a PC with an OS like this one will just replace it with a pirated microsoft OS.
I am willing to bet that the average linux user is savy enough to simply build his own PC. Honestly, what linux user can't do this?
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
They can't sell real Windows for cheap, but know, that the frugal Chinese will install a pirated version.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/21054.htm/ Wuxi's per capita $4584.53 as of 10/24/2001.
It might be a little higher now, say closer to $5,500.
Any site linked from Slashdot is bound to get a free DOS.
Now to be more on-topic: Does it have FreeDOS installed or does it just come with a FreeDOS disc? I remember a while back that someone used that as a loophole against an MS contract that mandated the company not to sell machines without an OS. They responded by shipping the machine with a copy of FreeDOS. (was it dell?)
As I'm sure it'll be tough to get online, download Linux iso's, and burn them to cd-r using FreeDOS, are there any provisions made by the Linux community to make sure folks who need distros there can get them? I'm thinking Ubuntu-esque.
Then there's the pessimist in me that's thinking the machines will have a pirated version of windows instead of a perfectly legal Linux distro. Oh well.
when the chinese move to their own processor design - which they can do anytime if they decide to run Linux .
This is not a signature.
is what cringley had to say. the whole cheap PC china thing should have been the side note.
Its a sign that the big ass corps aren't as against the idea of going against MS at all!
Besides, everybody knows that in china nobody cares about those worthless 2 letters called "IP". Why piss away on your competitiveness in the marketplace over those 2 letters?
Its only 2 letters, and if things go the same way as they are now, soon USA will also be another 3 letters...
Online backup with Mozy, sounds like Ozzie, but more!
Honestly I find their _calculators_ more attractive as a whole than their printers. HP has done good work on a few printers I know of, (mostly 4l and varients), but I dont think any of the inkjets are legit, and some of the laser printers have problems too (1100 series, more?)
HP doesn't do a good job marketing things, they just expect people to buy because they have a lousy "invent" motto, and they're a big spanking company. Dell on the other hand projects a totally false image, and people buy.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
HP has been selling desktops with the FreeDOS OS option for a while now. I noticed it while configuring a new desktop for work on their site. It is nice to be able to save $100 per workstation on an order of a couple dozen, as we already own Windows licenses. No need to pay the Microsoft tax again...
With the IBM/Lesovo deal, Sun aggressively marketing JDS in Asia, this HP PC, and with China's different opinions about intellectual property, I wonder what Microsoft is thinking about all this. Perhaps HP is saying that people in China would rather pay for better hardware and get Windows, um, elsewhere.
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
FreeDOS is not realy useful but it is good enough to run some basic harware validation testes. It will also minimize the support issues. Customers that buy a FreeDOS machine will likely have to replace it with either Linux or a [pirated] version of Windoze. If customers call for support they are out of luck. It no longer a prestine system as it was shipped from the manufacture.
As mentioned in other posts, this sounds exactly like what Dell did. In order to satisfy a contract with Microsoft that requires every PC to be sold with an OS, if you bought an "OS-less" PC, it included FreeDOS on a CD. Of course, nobody is going to actually use FreeDOS, but it satisfies the contract.
Well, a PC should boot to something.
It might as well boot to something free.
483 USD is about 250 UKP - I can build a sweetspot box for that, although sans monitor and printer.
--
Toby
For the price of this computer you can get one from Dell with the MS Tax. Really, how usable is FreeDOS to the average user?
but FreeDOS won't be replaced by Linux. 99.99 % will install Windows on them. I have been there. You can go into any shop (almost all carry them) and get a CD for about a buck containing Windows XP, Office, Photoshop and Dreamweaver in a printed cardboard cover.
Nobody, not even the largest businesses will get bothered if they only install pirated versions. Considering the fact that all large Software makers dont't do discounts in countries with a lower average income I have a hard time imagening anyone paying for Windows in China.
So Windows is basically free (as in beer) for everyone in China. So Linux and Windows are on par considering price. On how many desktops do You see FreeDOS getting replaced by Linux again?
The only reason it has FreeDOS is to keep it cheap.
China is one of the countries with rampant software piracy. If you bundle an OS, you're not competitive.
They are well aware that pirated Windows will be installed. They just can't put that in the press release.
My mom says I'm cool.
It is an extra $200 for the additional 20MB of memory.
I'll respond to this myself:
Points A, and B, would have merit if they reflected the the general modding of all comments, it doesn't. If that post was referring to Windows, and not Linux, I can guarantee it would have been modded up. Have you looked at most comments on slashdot, every other post contains a personal attack, but they are usually harmless and a form of expressing disagreement, rather than true opinions of others. Only people who are hyper-sensitive would take them seriously.
In regard to point C, if you don't realize there is a overwhelming bias towards Linux and against Microsoft on slashdot, then you're plain stupid (sorry to make it personal).
As a post note: you will notice I apologized to said submitter (before you modded me down).
Yeah, actually this has got to piss MS off. They say that they put a free alternative on there, so that the price of Windows isn't part of the machine, and the consumer can load up whatever they want -- okay, that's great, wish it was easier to get that here. But "everybody knows" that in China, everybody's going to load up these machines with pirated copies of Windows. So what this looks like if you're MS and you think that everyone is out to get you, is that HP is basically ripping them off by not forcing the Chinese to at least pay for OEM copies of their stuff.
How expensive is it to pre-load a hard-drive image over a LAN? A cent of electricity and 10 minutes of time on the shelf before packaging. It could be included in the final test stage of the factory (assuming they test).
Just following Clinton's lead.
Or did you forget China Gate?
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
In Korea, only old people try to list Slashdot memes for laughs.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Barebones PC for only 50% more than you can get one in the US. With the same "OS".
Someone please tell me why this is a) news, b) a good deal?
My parents gave me a Toyota Tercel for my 17th birthday. I'm not sure why they chose Toyota, but I suspect they expect it to be replaced by a Lexus or BMW by the user.
:)
It's the hardware they're selling for cheap. They'd have to replace you for the analogy to be correct
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
So what it's of no concern what so ever to HP what end users do with their equipment illegal or otherwise. Perhaps this will put pressure on MS to release a version of their OS at a REALISTIC price that the Chinese market will bear.
"The same one's that can't deal with a spatial browser."
It's a matter of preference, damnit, not lack of ability. Besides, I like the other WM's panels more.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
IIRC, the first major brand did this was Great Wallhttp://www.greatwall.com.cn/. In the late 90s, Great Wall began selling some of its entry level PCs preloaded with IBM's PCDOS. IBM got some RMB100 for each system sold, it's a lot cheaper then MS tax though. Almost everyone buying this installed pirated Windows on it. MS was mad but could do nothing about it.
From then on, there have been many vendors selling their low-end desktops and laptops with various OSes other than Windows installed. Lenovo being one of them, once sold their PC with Happy Linux, a distro made by Lenovo itself. Lenovo was still named Legend back then.
The reason Great Wall sells PCDOS(yes, it still does) is that IBM has very good relationship with Great Wall. In fact, the most profitable part of Great Wall's business is called IIPC, in which IBM holds 80% share, and it manufactures both IBM and Great Wall branded PCs. Lenovo's purchase of IBM's PC business is a major blow to Great Wall indeed. I guess Cringely just missed out Great Wall when naming the losers.
People who dislike China tend to mention Tiananmen Square a lot, but they always forget the Tank Man is also a Chinese.
40% Funny
Looks like the modders just don't know what to make of the post. It was meant to be funny and also a smack at the "funny" posters who use the above posts to gain mod points. I no way was I regarding the Chinese in either a negative manner. I hope no offense was taken.
Namaste
* Sokoban
* Pharaohs tomb
* Commander Keen
* Doom shareware
* and similar stuff
I found prior art a www.microsoft.com! (well, I heard about it, never actually been there.)
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
I guarantee you HP isn't paying $200 for Windows XP. $200 is the price of full retail copy of Windows XP Home. They're paying less than $100 for an OEM license, probably much less. Still a significant chunk of change out of a $600 computer considering how much hardware gets better, faster and cheaper all the time, but not $200 worth.
Hi, I'm the coordinator for the FreeDOS Project, and webmaster for FreeDOS.org. Looks like we're getting a minor slashdotting. Thanks, guys! :-) In case the main page becomes unavailable, you can use this list of mirrors instead:
slashdot.php or slashdot.html
The primary mirror site is at sourceforge:
http://freedos.sourceforge.net/
Neither Windows nor Linux are that hard to install on a new machine with supported-out-of-the-box hardware. I use linux mostly, but if my computer vendor preinstalls a copy for me, it is quite improbable that it would be the right distribution, the right selection of packages and the right configuration for me, so they would just spend the installation and support costs in vain.
Wait a minute. If FreeDOS is free, which it should be, because it has the word "Free" in its name, unless it doesn't mean "Free" in the sense of "Free as in beer", or as some might better understand, "Free as in you don't have to pay money for it", which could mean that it means "Free" in the other sense, which means "Free as in you're not in jail or something", but I believe it means the former, because usually when a free software project puts the name "Free" in the name of the free software project, as the FreeBSD folks have done with FreeBSD, which also contains the word "Free" in the name of the free software project, because you can obtain the software for free, as in not having to pay money for it, and you can then modify that software and distribute it for free or for money, whichever you want, because you're free in the other sense to do so with the so-called "Free" free software project, then HP shouldn't be charging a bunch of Chinese, who have to work in sweatshops since age two, because they don't have any money to buy food, a whole bunch of money for a PC, when most of them probably cannot afford a PC, because, like I said, they lack the money to buy food, because unlike free software projects with the word "Free" in the name, food is not "Free" in China, for FreeDOS.
According to Chinese Govt Stats for 2001, farmers on the average makes about 300 US$ a year and city folks about 600 US$. Let's assumed those numbers doubled in the past three years, that's still only $600 and $1200 respectively. So HP is going to sell their $400 computers to ... who?
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
"And even in the PC business, IBM is suddenly much freer to sell PowerPC chips to HP and Dell, though I really doubt that will happen -- not unless Microsoft suddenly opts for a PowerPC version of Windows. But stranger things have happened before, eh?"
Ummm... The new XBox runs on a PowerPC and if it like the old XBox it will run a version of Windows... Windows on the PowerPC.
I have to wonder if IBM is planing on using the Cell CPU to take back the market from Intel. The Mac has shown that the PowerPC can compete in the PC market. I have to wonder if IBM had more of clue to how important the PC was going to be if they wouldn't have made the CPU themselves. A mini 360 on chip. It was even possible since they did it a little later using a custom 68k
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
So HP has only to ship the computer from the manufacturing facility in Taiwan to China instead of to the U.S. or other market and probably saves on Windows tax and the computer sells for more than a low end machine where costs are higher?
What would be the opposite of 'dumping'? Is there no end to HP's efforts to destroy their entire business?
Cringeley puts it in perspective, too bad HP has spent all this time trying to be more like Dell and not innovating like they used to.
Just like desktop machine bundled with OpenOffice... Many smaller shops prefer the following wording:
*FREE Office Productivity Suite -- OpenOffice 1.0 ... Now they can use
*Preload with MS compatible DOS operating system -- FreeDOS x.x
These are enterprise PCs, not personal PCs. Yes, you can get it for cheaper, but I'd like to see you go to Fry's and try to drag out 5000 units.
Enterprise PCs are not intended for flash graphics, etc. They are intended for easy management, and stability. The company that sells an enterprise computer is required to maintain the _original_ image for a number of years. Therefore, if someone bought 5000 computers from HP with Windows 94 5 years ago, they can still get the same exact image restored, since HP archives it. This is a big plus for enterprise people. Consistency of image is key.
Granted, there is not much you can do to screw up a FreeDOS image, but then there is the warm feeling of having to someone to yell at if you are having problems with your $2 Mil Desktop purchase.
Many integrated graphics chipsets, such as NVIDIA's Xbox chipset and Intel Extreme Graphics chipset, steal a few MB of main RAM to use as video RAM.
Anyone with a clue would drop a real video card in the machines anyway.
I think anyone with a clue would avoid Dell altogether.
This is subtle linux bashing at its best... or perhaps FreeDOS is the cheapest alternative for an OS; which is able to verify the working state of the hardware.
Does it go on forever?
If they wanted to do that I'm sure they would have got him a Kia. =)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/metricmusic
If you buy a linux box from hp when you get it you get a box with freedos loaded on it. You get a set of linux installation disks. Now the fist time I got one of these I wondered why bother even putting free dos on it? Well it did not take me long to figure it out. Their MS contract probably does not allow them to sell a box without a os on it. The quick way to get around that deal and not have to actually provide support is to load freedos and ship it out the door.
Got Code?
There are pirated version of Windows XP in China because they know Windows. This is definitely an efford to introduce FreeDOS to the Chinese so that they can make pirated version of FreeDOS instead... Chinese are nice though. They made pirated softwares and sell them cheap in my country. ha ha ha.
As a British computer guy living in Guangzhou (Canton) in southern China, this isn't a very good deal...
1. The local supermarket sells PC's for around 4,500yuan that include monitor and a valid version of XP Home.
2. You can get a C3 based small form factor box (w/o monitor) from the same place for 1,500yuan which also comes with XP Home.
3. If you go to the local computer market (huge place, hundreds of shops) you can get a brand name (Chinese) PC with a 15" flat screen for about 4,500yuan (o/s included).
So why is this considered 'cheap'? Because in reality it's not.
It takes a lot longer to install Linux then FreeDOS. WHen your kicking aroung 1000's of machines, even 5 minutes and install is a nice cost savings.
that is the only reason for the choice.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
When you got 1000's of PC, 10 minutes is become very expensive.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
TigerDirect- a big distributor of wholesale/retail equipment in Canada and the USA (Apparently now Germany, the UK, and France now as well), also sells PCs in many configurations and custom built with FreeDOS (and the option to add Windows/Linux at a price).
The idea is that a computer should do _something_. You take receipt of a new PC and turn it on to find "No disk or disk error" or some equivalent error. Errors are always bad.
So:
- Small image can be loaded from a floppy, USB drive (with boot ability), CD-ROM, CardReader, etc. Many computers now are starting to come without floppy drives as standard. A custom system without a CD drive (maybe I want to add a DVD-writer later on instead) needs a way to load a _VERY_ small image... FreeDOS is that image, rather than a few hundred megs or more. Plus quick load times.
- System boots (seems to be working)
- Hardware list or diagnostic tool on system to allow basic checking of the configuration (what PCI boards are in there? What size hard drive?)
- Allows testing and diagnostics
- Good starting point to partition for Windows 9x installations
- Not subject to any licenses that they have to worry about (and universal in all countries)
- Can display a logo of some sort and welcome screen (mmm... 320x200)
Hopefully provides some of the reasoning based on the systems I've seen.
-M
when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
Ooopsy I blooped, but the sad truth is that I really don't get to see linux based ad's in any of the dailies that I subscribe. Once is a year is how I put it.
Looking at the specs, I see that this is in fact quite a bit more expensive than what I usually buy for Corp. Customers in China. I can get Sempron 2600, 256RAM, 80GB HDD with a GIGAbyte Motherboard, all installed in a small form factor case for 2400yuan, or $292. Add a 17in flat panel and you have a full computer for 5000 yuan ($610). That is, of course without OS. I for one welcome the idea of buying MS tax free computers from HP with similar specs, cause i can't even guarantee avalability of replacement parts for the custom built stuff.
Fancy handmade instruments at The Camel's Back