Slashdot Mirror
Venezuela Moves Further Toward Open Source
baquiano writes "Today the Venezuelan press reports that the government has formally issued a decree (English translation) which prioritizes the use of free/open source software over proprietary systems in government entities. This follows a year of pilot deployments in Venezuela's Info Centros (Internet public access points) and some ministries. (Past attempts, reported by Slashdot, by former Minister of Science and Technology Felipe Perez Marti to push ahead this initiative were allegedly foiled by Microsoft.) The decree calls for plans to actively deploy FOSS during a 24-month period."
I don't mean to be too cynical, but I'm sure even the Venezualan people would admit that they are not the foremost force in world IT. Quite right, this is a victory for Open Source, but could we save the dancing in the streets for when a slightly more major player joins our side?
This reminds me of Bush's hilarious "You forgot Poland!" in the first presidential debate.
apterous.org
This is a positive development. However, as President Chavez has stated that he plans to model Venezuela after Castro's Cuba, in the end this won't amount to software developer/user freedom or efficiency.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
To the list of sponsors of the next coup attemp?
Did Bill hire Inspector Gadget or something to keep the Venezuelan authorities from going open-source?
Anybody got tape on this, so to speak?
...how Microsoft can get away with determining the priorities and policies of foreign governments. How often in history does a private enterprise have this much power?
In any case, I applaud Venezuela now for actually paying attention to this kind of thing. Think about how many other issues they have to deal with, yet they still managed to account for stuff like this (cost to government for software). Look at where we are in many other countries, including the US. How many government officials here in America could you actually convince to launch a campaign promoting free software? Not many, if any.
Take off every sig. For great justice.
someone had to say it
Can someone clear my doubt as to which state of the United States Venezuela belongs to?
191 to go!
but i guess this is a good win for Open Source, it can't be bad
A new world order has arisen with Microsoft now in charge of most of the world's armies, they have vowed to crush insurgents in countries with ties to the Open Source Software Initiative.
"We need to defend liberty and freedom everywhere," World Leader Gates said. "If we don't stop open source overseas, we'll soon be fighing Linux in our own homes."
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
Does open vs closed source really matter when the government ends up owning and controlling all the software?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
The CIA won't be happy -- they won't be able to break into Venezuelian systems anymore.
All the proprietary software goes on strike and marches through the streets, demanding the overthrow of the president.
sulli
RTFJ.
"Further toward"? Isn't that like saying "Closer away" or "Higher down"?
This coward's suggestion: "Closer toward".
I read the article and there's nothing in it detailing why free software was chosen over non-free software. I do assume that the reason has something to do with the software not costing the government any money. However, I would like to see some administrative benchmarks (increased civil happiness, etc...) to see if free software really does cause the government to lead more effectively than non-free software.
This would apply equally to Apple et al.
Say what you will about Macs, I for one would hate to be involved in government printing down there once this kicks in.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
Great to hear :-) :-).
d =3521240
Concerning Venezuela's ability make their own choices, The Economist has an interesting article today about Venezuela having forged new major oil contracts with China (I admit it has no immediate relation with open source, but hey, it -is- two great news for their ability to be free
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_i
Animoog.org
We're in slashdot.
Sweet, no more big expenses in Software and I can use FireFox in the cybercafes. Now we only have a whole bunch of problems to solve.
chao.
This doesn't yet mean much but, at least it's a step in the right direction.
If governments continue to promote open source, i don't know who this would be a bigger victory. Open source? Standards?...
For example like the once set by World Wide Web Consortium that Microsoft never really bothered to comply with.
Tomorrow on Slashdot: a warm and fuzzy article about the North Korean dictator being enlightened because he uses Firefox.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Personally I suspect Chavez says most of it for effect. He obviously enjoys pissing off the Yanquis. Once upon a time, when the UK had been largely isolated from European in-fighting, the English enjoyed pissing off the Continentals by mocking their political theories and their habits. It was a way of relieving the tension of living next to powerful neighbors who might turn nasty at any moment.
Unfortunately the US has a remarkable degree of paranoia about any country that turns even mildly pink in what it sees as its own backyard. The result has been gross overreaction in places like Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba and, most ludicrously of all, Grenada. It's not surprising that the poor people of the South can easily be made to see the US as the enemy. I hope that the FOSS movement can remain sufficiently politically neutral that it is seen as favoring no particular economic model, but that it will flourish in any economy where independent thought and individual cooperation are valued. The strong German contribution to FOSS, along with the input from the former USSR/Warsaw Pact bloc, suggests that this may well happen. In the meantime, let's not confuse a noisy politician with a country.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
If the U.S. was willing to monkey around in Venezuelan politics and attempt to force a coup against a democratically elected government before, just wait until they hear that Venezuela has cut back on money given to Microsoft. What will the U.S. be willing to try then? Another extended occupation? It doesn't help that Venezuela has oil, or that it's in the U.S. "sphere of influence" under the Monroe Doctrine.
So does this freak. You've got to read his rant!
I don't think that Venezeula is making choices here. The "President" won the recent referendum by ordering physical assaults against opponents. (At least he did not use dioxin poisoning!) He has announced intent to wipe out the grassroots labor union movement and to put the press under government control. It is overall not a very "open source" situation, nor it is a situation in which the Venezuelans are making choices. Chavez views Fidel Castro as his political mentor. This is not conducive to democracy.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
From wikipedia.org...... The British East India Company, popularly known as "John Company", was founded by a Royal Charter of Queen Elizabeth I on December 31, 1600. Over the next 250 years, it became one of the most powerful commercial enterprises of its time. The British East India Company's business was centered on India, where it also acquired auxiliary governmental and military functions which came to overshadow its commercial activities. Based in Leadenhall Street, London, the company influenced all continents: it presided over the creation of British India, founded Hong Kong and Singapore, employed Captain Kidd to combat piracy, established the cultivation of tea in India, held Napoleon captive on Saint Helena and made the fortune of Elihu Yale. Its products were the subject of the Boston Tea Party. Microsoft doesn't hold a candle to this company!
Grenada is the least overreaction. The Cubans invaded and began to massacre the Grenadans, and as a result the US came in, kicked the invaders out, and restored native control. This is one country that to this day loves and thanks the Yanqui. Cuba, Nicaragua, and Chile do not.
Not sure I see how dictatorships issuing decrees regarding FOSS amounts to victory for Open Source.
and in exactly what sense is venezuela a dictatorship?
Well if Washington has its way, he might be around for much longer.
Now that the Venezuelan technology powerhouse has jumped on this bandwagon, I think the rest of the world will stand up and finally take notice of this Open Source thing!
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
Having said that, it's not inconceivable they're trying to get bargaining power with Microsoft, but I find it more likely that they really are committed to saving money and sticking two fingers up to the US (which hates them).
pero funciono Windows XP. Senor Bill Gates dijo que sería fino.
Evidence of Cuban massacres, please. And the restoration of 'native' control would be interesting to read about.
Well.. ofcourse I screwed it up beyond anyones belief... So here's my PROPER release of the parent post:
In soviet venezuela microsoft puts tinfoil hats on YOU.
Apple built a platform for their ideas, Google built one for everyone's.
I find it ironic that a country like Venezuela embraces open source. Venezuela is lurching towards a command driven enconomy, crushing dissent, and limiting personal freedoms. The utopia envisioned by the communists in Venezuela could never give rise to silicon valley and the oss phenomenon. The personal freedoms of life in the USA create technology and tools that are then made use of in closed societies. That's ironic.
I just feel warm and fuzzy all over.
From a purely logical standpoint, those facts all make for good reasons for the government to choose Linux over Windows. Especially if you believe in the conspiracy theory that the US government holds the crypto keys to Windows, and if you believe the US government is interested in spreading democracy.
Of course, Slashdot regulars will avoid this reality and simply shout, "Yay Open Source"!
I want some of that infallible software!
By inference, their translation software must be OSS...
What is the difference between a real song and a simulated song?
Always interesting how someone, in this case Chavez or Castro, can be seen as a Good Guy and as a Bad Guy, depending on whom you ask...
They say the first casualty of war is the Truth. This applies when talking of software FUD wars as well as politics...
Animoog.org
Sir/Madam:
If I had a thousand mod points, they would all go to your post undoubtedly.
Well said....
will work for Karma
I for one, welcome our open source overlords. ...
;-)
Ok I'm gonna lose karma for this one...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I glanced at the title quickly, saw "Venezuela Moves Further...", and immediately thought that Venezuela was somehow affected by that earthquake.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Chavez is busting down hard on any dissent or anyone that doesn't meet him on the political scale
Your link is to an editorial, not an article. It's just red baiting. True, his media law was an authoratarian move and an ugly one. But despite his willingness to meet with the guy, he's not the second coming of Castro. Can you imagine Castro allowing a recall election? And winning it?
Note that the opposition leaders are not in jail.
It's all about the oil.
We may have helped out the coup, and were certainly the only ones to recognize it, but with the current instability in the oil markets we will continue to back Chavez.
He was very lucky that on the very same day of the recall election, oil prices were at a high water mark. Note how quick we were to accept the results as valid.
As far as I know it can be called 'dictatorship', in first place, it wins in a democracy election, in the second place, it was commited to a referendum for check if the people of venezuela claims it as their president and he wins: http://www.proyectoconosur.com.ar/Noticias/Noticia Muestra.asp?Id=3249
So please stay informed before post ;) Just a flame isn't enoght.
Personally I don't see this having any effect other than public offices changing to linux and open source programs. It will give more jobs in the public sector to programmers, which is a good thing considering the huge unemployment right now, but the regular people will just continue using their pirated copies of programs. To put things in perspective, I live in the 4th biggest city in the country, and where the electricity (hydro) for most of Venezuela and part of Colombia and Brazil is generated, plus a big producer of iron, steel, aluminum and lots of other minerals exported worldwide... but yet I don't know of any place here where I could buy legitimate software.. while at the same time just walking from my home to work everyday I pass in front of at least 4 places that sell pirated DVDs, music and software.. and I don't mean shady places in the back of a van or soemthing, but huge places with neon signs advertising pirated stuff for sale... heck, I've seen several next to police stations with police people buying on them frequently. People here just don't know about open source, because there's just not a culture of paying for software at all, most people don't even realize that buying a burned CD with the latest software on it, a crack and a serial written on the label is illegal... and last time I heard of something being done about it was 4 or 5 years ago when the BSA did a campaign against piracy, closed down several stores and placed fines on people... and things were back again like it was before within a week.
If I had to guess, I'd say this is more about president Chavez sticking it up to the US in any way he can (after all, we're talking about a guy that called Bush an asshole in public chained TV.. and for those that don't know "chained" means that the president can "chain" all the public TV and radio stations so that they're forced to display whatever he wants, usually him giving one of his 2 or 3+ hours speeches, which he does very frequently... times like those makes me feel pity for those that can't afford cable TV), and as I said, I really doubt it'll have any effect outside of the public offices... and if the ones I've gone to, in this city and in the capitol, even then they have so few computers and so outdated the effect will be minimal... we use to joke around that anytime we hear the sound of an old style typewriter (that old tac-tac-tac), that it sounds like a public office.. :)
It has to be a dictatorship, we don't like it, even if the people of venezuela do...
I think Open Source solutions are good choices if there is good support if things go wrong but they often require more expertise by the IT people and can be costly if they have to customize or otherwise wade through the often poorly written documentation just to compile and install.
This is where MS flexes their corporate muscle--they make CTOs feel good about spending m/billions on their solutions.
If MS and Open Source were men:
Open Source would be the quiet mysterious geek who can't utter a sentence without geek speak but is pretty nice looking and gentle. He's sincere and eager but doesn't have lots of money. He's usually polite and makes you feel quite comfortable though you have to pay for his meals now and then.
MS would be the tall, dark, and handsome fraternity boy with a new Porsche who slips you some Rohypnol and you wake up naked and screwed with an empty wallet. He throws wild parties at your place but doesn't check the guest list very well. Your stuff keeps getting stolen and you keep finding creeps living and hiding in your closets. You notice on the wall that you have a marriage certificate on the wall and it's signed in your blood. You're Mrs. Satan.
Maybe I took that a little too far...but you get the point.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
Sorry bud, you've been listening to the CIA propaganda a little too much. Chavez defeated an incumbent in a democratically held election in a landslide victory.
It doesn't get more democratic than that. The real wannabe dictator is the President-select publicly endorsed by Dubbya who only managed to seize and hold to power for less than twenty four hours.
But it is the fifth largest oil producer in the world and the Oil industry is nationalized. A move to open source by a huge oil company (Citgo belongs to PDVSA, the Venezuelan oil company) means a lot of opportunities for guys like me (several years of experience in linux) to make a buck. Hey! The fact that I am venezuelan might even help, uh? Not all of us in latin america live in mud-huts like Hollywood might like you to think. Maybe a little traveling will open up your eyes and maybe help you make a dollar or two.
In the exact same sense where Saddam was ruling in a democracy...
Tell me, what's a democracy but a name when people cannot exercise their rights?
when there is no freedom of speech, thought, or travel?
It's almost a dictatorship under the veil of another name to not scare off investors and not draw the world's attention to it.
will work for Karma
Chavez understands that if he leans toward the poor and economically repressed he gets reelected. He also has the smarts to trade oil to Cuba in exchange for transferring teachers and medical workers from Cuba to Venezuela. This is a page from classic socialism. His backing open source makes sense for his vision of a Latin American trade zone. I find this a positive aspect of his recent reelection. On the downside, there is oppression, but, not anything worse than most of our friends overseas.
since when venezuela is a dictatorship ? just because president hugo chávez is socialist ?
don't forget that he defeated the right wing in a failed atempt of a coup and was kept in power after winning a recall poll. he has twice the legitimacy as your warrior president, george junior.
plus, a "decree" is not just a tool for dictators. other full fledged democracies have the so called "decree". assume the word to be little more than a regulation signed by the president of a democratic nation exerting the powers granted to him/her by the constitution. nothing that a rule from congress or from the supreme court can't overturn.
What ? Me, worry ?
Democratic Socialism != Authoratarian Communism
Nice troll... but since I've seen other misinformed posts been modded up, I feel the need to reply.
First, Chavez is not a dictator. He was democratically elected, and recently won a referendum on his mandate, which was endorsed by international observers. Also, I can personally tell you that the Venezuelan media enjoys a high degree of freedom and independence, the opposition has never been outlawed, and Venezuelans have all their civil rights protected by the Constitution. The problem with Chavez is his tendency to inflamatory speeches, his ultra-nationalistic rhetoric, and his close friendship with Fidel Castro, which gives the casual observer the impression that he's a classic communist dictator. But if you dig a little deeper you will find out that's far from being so. If you judge him by what he has actually done (opposed to what he merely said in ultra-patriotic rallies and speeches directed toward their partisans), you conclude that's he's no more left-leaning than Brazilian President Lula or Argentinian Nestor Kirchner. And no one is accussing the latter two of being dictators.
Second, this step from Venezuela may have important implications for Latin America. If a country manages to successfully switch an important part of his governmental software infrastructure to FOSS, it might start a landslide of investment in FOSS in other Latin American countries, as the local goverment is usually the biggest spender in IT in Latin American countries.
Third, this is not a ploy to getter deal from Microsoft (they already did that), since is a decree -- that means it's official policy, not something you can casually use to bargain a better deal from a vendor.
You're bound to be unhappy if you optimize everything. --Donald Knuth
In the exact same sense where Saddam was ruling in a democracy... That is so incredibly ignorant. Chavez was elected in REAL ELECTIONS certified by outside monitors. Saddam always got 100% of the vote.
When the Israeli Gov. decided to go open source (and Israel does have a strong IT community).. it was, correctly, interpreted as snubbing microsoft .
A ministry of finance spokeswoman said: "Office includes software that we don't use, and if you buy individually it costs much more than as a package."
Sounds familiar?
Even though Venezuela's GDP is SkyRocketing, I'm still sure they're happy to save a few bucks.
From what I see, president Hugo Chavez has a deep hatred towards the U.S. And he sees any american company as a threat to his government. In other words, his move towards open source is not to be seen as something "defending the rights of the people", but rather as an instrument of pressure.
Frankly I don't care what happens with software on Venezuela... I just want the guy out.
and sticking two fingers up to the US (which hates them).
For those of us in the US, that be the equivelent of 'flipping the bird'.
bork bork bork!
funny, of course.
or don't. because it isn't really.
Venezuela's disastrous debt is getting to Argentina levels. If a government moves to FOSS because it can't afford to do anything else, is it really a victory for Open Source? And in that case, does that mean every time Microsoft does a massive giveaway to an ailing nation it is a victory for closed source?
That's what open sores is all about, biatch.
This is funny if you know anything about the leadup to the recall election. The anti-chavez movement was backed by the business sector of the country and opposed by the poor peasents. In the cities, there were tons of anti-Chavez demonstrations (and in all the pictures I saw, these people were very well dressed and mostly light skinned) demanding his overthrow. It was like a sick pervesion of the classic 'revolutionary' protest scene - the monied interests were taking it to the streets!
'Venezuela Moves Further Toward Open Source' should read
'Venezuela Moves Closer Toward Open Source' or 'Venezuela Moves Further From Open Source'
Judging by the article, 'Venezuela Moves Closer Toward Open Source' is correct
if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
*All* the international observers said the referendum was perfectly normal and legal.
But of course, this slashdotter knows better than those corrupted observers that fail to condemn a latin american president that doesnt bow to every order that comes from Washington.
Saddam used to issue decrees all the time. In democratic societies nobody tries to shove shit down your throat by issuing decrees. If open source is better than let it win on its own merit
did you forget to take your meds?
Yes, it has to be a dictatorship, presumably because it's socialist. Never mind the whole thing with elections, and that the people who tried a coup there a while ago were on the opposite end of the political spectrum.
OK, now why would there be a coup if things are are so splendidly democratic over there?
According to this article IBM and Novell also working to promote the use of Open Source in Venezuela.
There is a good overview of Venezuelan government efforts so far -- including in the huge national oil company PDVSA (which owns Citgo in the US) -- to use and promote Open Source software here.
Why are so many people unable to read ANYTHING that's not pro-Fidel and anti-Bush without starting with the same old "Bush is bad, US is bad, everything against US is good" bullshit?
Why don't such people just go and read something USEFUL about the situation there before saying that stupid "Mooreish" things about how Chaves is a good president and how he's just being good to the proletarians?
Remember, many journalists spent years trying to convince the world that URSS was wonderful, incredible, peaceful, some used to lie a lot (the problem is, fanatic leftists tend to believe in every single lie they're told, if Chomsky told them shit tastes like chocolate, they would believe so) . Those are the ones saying the same things about Cuba and Venezuela now.
Now, a typical response to my post:
"you burgoise motherfucker, stop saying URSS wasn't a paradise, it was, but Bush ruined it! I know, I just watched that Moore 'documentary'! I heard it's completely fake, but hey, that does not change the truth! And I read that Chomsky book, it's full of accusations, and absolutely no references of any kind, he even accuses his dog and hist cat of being CIA agents, but I know he's telling me the truth too!"
Whats your definition of opression?
How do you distinguish opression from a legal measure taken by the government.
Remember: Venezuela's government was democratically elected (and then re elected) by a fair majority, bigger than the one that re elected Bush.
If the government respects the Constitution, your use of the word opression means nothing but the fact that you dont agree.
If you are talking about the Rights of Man, then the question is what rights are being supressed in Venezuela. And, btw if you consider unemployment as opression.
As regards the censorship in Venezuela, private companies seem to be as big a threat as the government.
If Cuba is in such good shape and it's citizens enjoy such a "good life", why do so many of them risk death attempting to cross the sea to Florida in barely seaworthy boats?
/. these days? Yeah, great, so Castro's Cuba has low infant mortality. Hitler got the trains running on time in Germany, too. It doesn't make either of them anything more than fascist strongmen.
I mean, if what you say is true and it is the US that is the totalitarian dictatorship, shouldn't the people requesting political asylum be traveling in the other direction?
Also, why is it that the people who tell me Cuba is such an enlightened society with low infant mortality and high literacy have NEVER, EVER actually LIVED in Cuba?
This is what passes for "Insightful" on
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
> The "President" won the recent referendum by ordering physical assaults against opponents.
Please provide some support for that statement. I am aware of one incident in which the army fired on someone waiting to vote in Caracas, but that 1 vote did not 'win' the election for Chavez. I was under the impression that he won the election (by a huge margain) because he is very popular among the rural poor.
Can you support your allegations of electoral fraud through systemic violence? Because the Carter Center and the OAS, which observed the election, both seem to disagree with you.
Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez is a power hungry socialist demagogue who believes the United States was behind a rebuffed coup attempt against him and he may be right: US officials made statements in support of the coup in the few days before if collapsed (this coup should not be confused with the failed coup attempt he once led against an earlier Venezuelan government) and US officials and diplomats refused to even use the word "coup" to describe the armed overthrow of Chávez. It's only natural that he would publicly embrace Linux (especially given Richard Stallman's communist-sounding "freedom" and [anti] "piracy" rhetoric) as an alternative to Microsoft -- he can play it both as an anti-capitalist move and an anti-American move.
It wouldn't be entirely bad if, say, PDVSA, the giant government-run petroleum company, were to show that Linux helped its operations and bottom line (Venezuela is a powerful member of OPEC). But I, knowing people who have lived and worked in Venezuela the last few years, and having been there myself, would assume that this decree is rooted in anti-American politics, not economics.
Or maybe el Presidente didn't buy the official explanation of Windows' NSAKEY?
Im From Venezuela, and i also Follow Slahsdot Very Closely, and seeing this thread about how the Government Adopted a FOSS policy, prompts me to finally create an account and post a good reply to the news.. I, like many other Lug members in this country, where in a Forum whose hosts were mainly RMS and the aforementioned ex-Minister of Technology Felipe Perez Marti In this Forum apart of demostrating other technologies and hearing RMS's Speech, the reasons to adopt Open Source by the Goverment where exposed and these are: 1) Improve Education Trough FOSS 2) Cut Costs in Government IT sectors 3) Develop a joint Strategy With Brazil to Implement FOSS nationwide and not only in Government Agencies and Institutions. 4) Better Access to Technology for Everyone 5) Stay updated in new Software Technolgies 6) Use FOSS in Universities and Superior Education Institutes to Teach others how to implement, use and improve over Open Source. These are the main reasons, altough there are some others that arent as important as these that where what the former minister told the people tha t assisted the forum in November.. RMS couldn't talk properly because he had a horrible flu, and every other word a cough spelled out i see that in some replys to this article, there are Chavez supporters, or "Chavistas" as we call them here, i personally don't like the Chavez Administration, but i cannot disagree with this decree, as it makes a lot of sense even for the private sector, that should start noting a lot more FOSS for now on... Im not going to attack Chavez supporters here, the only thing i say is, before you believe either me or any of them, please, read every media in Venezuela before making an opinion!
A Stalinist dictatorship Get back to me when Chavez murders a few million people. To call him a communist is one thing, but Stalinist? Do you even know who Stalin was?
You... completely ignore the entire history of the last three years in Venezuela. You've excised the entire coup from your memory. The landslide election. The failed "recall", which was not an election but an attempt to roll back the election AFTER the armed assault on the elected president failed. You ignore Bush's role in the coup, and why the people hate the right wing so much down there.
I... just don't understand how the Right's brains work. You just carry your own reality around with you in a self-contained bubble? You literally do not hear anything which contradicts your version of the universe?
Right... because taxing (previously untaxed) companies and charging a percentage from foreign oil corporations in order to increase social spending is JUST LIKE spending all your money on the military and nukes while your people are so desperate for food that they resort to cannabalism, and at the same time your nation is completly isolated from the world, and BTW you shoot them if they try to leave. Yeah, they sound like peas in a pod.
it doesn't matter if you use Microsoft or FOSS for the benefit of the local software industry the tricky part is convince your local market that your software quality and most important your technical support is at par with foreign companies.
Saying that using microsoft hurts the local software industry is preposterous, get real and stick to the facts when making statements it could well hurt the efforts of FOSS and give Microsoft the advantage.
And by the way Chavez is not a dictator, people killed or disappeard for venting their opinions in public: 0. Again stick to the facts.
Best metaphore ever. +5 poetic.
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
sure castro's economic policies have done wonders for cuba. thats why 3000 people a year jump on rafts to get the hell out of there. how about comparing them to chile who has had a more or less free market system since 1973. which country has a higher standard of living?
good grief.
http://frankwarner.typepad.com/free_frank_warner/2 004/09/harvard_and_mit.html
Having Peanut Carter endorse an election most assuredly means it was crooked and/or the socialist won...same thing.
And if I had a thousand mod points I'd mod it all the way back down again.
I was talking about the oppression of the current government there. I did not "ignore" the coup history. It was left out because the coup plotters and alternative leaders are not in power, and are not relevant at all to the discussion.
"You ignore Bush's role in the coup"
Why even bring it up when we are talking about the actions of the existing govermment in the country?
"You just carry your own reality around with you in a self-contained bubble? " Are you "trolling", or what? Or are you trying to say that anything the current Venezuelan government does to violate human rights is OK because of Bush's coup? Or are you just trying to change the subject?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Yes, it is more democratic than the US of A.
/. has a massive pro-US bias (and most of its readers come from there).
You have to understand that
<SI>If Bush doesn't like the country then it must be undemocratic (because every one knows that Bush was democratically elected) so we must drop bombs on all the civilians.</SI>
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Sounds like I angered you by comparing one tinhorn dictator to another. Well, if they aren't two peas in a pod, how come Chavez is one of those coming out in support of his North Korean counterpart?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
You are describing exactly what happened when Lenin overthrow a democratic government and seized control of old Russia.
"Capitalism is very good at some things but it has a really nasty dark side, that most American's choose to overlook."
Fact it, Russia is a lot better off now. In the glory days of the communists, hundreds of thousands on average died each year due to starvation and being executed by the leaders. This is very low right now. Even what is going on in Chechnya is nothing compared to the massive casualties in the wars of Lenin, Stalin, Brezhnev, and others.
"All in all you just wish places like Cuba and Venezuela could keep all the good parts of Socialism without the repression"
Then you blame the oppression on the US. I have news for you: the lack of human rights in Cuba is a policy engineered in Havana, not Washington.
"the government does have to repress to keep from being overthrown"
This is not so. Rather, it is an excuse dictators use all the time. You can be 100% certain they'd still be oppressing even if there was not a bogeyman to blame.
"and people internally who want to topple your government, and loot and pillage to get rich..."
That is what Castro did. He is worth billions now, and it is pretty much illegal for the average Cuban to rise above poverty.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I see. You are right. Michael Moore dared to question the US government. As a result, he is rail thin, impoverished, and imprisoned. Al Franken and Bill Maher also lost their careers (no-one remembers who they are anymore) after they criticized the US.
And the Dixie Chicks? Never mind that their sales increased after they insulted GWB. The reason they appeared nude on the cover of a magazine is that they can't afford clothes anymore.
I wish it were another way. I check the nonfiction bestseller lists of 2004 and find nothing but books that say how wonderful Bush and US foreign policy are. There is no dissent. At all.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Thank you.
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
As you all can see everything in Venezuela is highly overshadow by a deep political division. This has been the problem with both Anti-Chavistas and Chavistas alike. :-). The problem is whether they will actually succeed in the project. Such a project will required skills that seem to be absent in Venezuela (both in government and elsewhere) such as organization, efficiency and control.
The reality is that the venezuelan government and people use mostly pirated software, most with full knowledge as copies are sold in streets and Malls, some because they are fooled by counterfeiters. Thus, it is an excellent idea to use Open Source (as an aside, they invited RMS but use Open Source as a term instead of Free Software, that's why Chavez followers have trouble making friends...
I wish them well, but the term you are most likely to hear is "Cuanto hay pa' eso?" (a Venezuelan expression asking how much money they will get from a legal or illegal activity).
let's take your 'typical response to my post' line by line...
>you burgoise motherfucker, stop saying URSS wasn't a paradise, it was, but Bush ruined it!
It's not 1930 anymore. The USA Communist party is dead. I'm pretty far to the left (I didn't like Kerry because I think he's to far to the right) but I'm glad the USSR fell. Same goes for just about every other leftist I've talked to about this. The Soviet Union was an authoratarian empire, good riddence.
>I know, I just watched that Moore 'documentary'! I heard it's completely fake, but hey, that does not change the truth
Newsflash. Michael Moore is just a fat guy who made a movie. Get over it.
>And I read that Chomsky book, it's full of accusations, and absolutely no references of any kind, he even accuses his dog and hist cat of being CIA agents, but I know he's telling me the truth too!"
You haven't read anything by Chomsky, have you. I've read a couple of his books, he references everything. If you want to argue that his socialist beleifs are wrong fine, but just making stuff up and dropping his name is so David Horowitz.
It's worth noting that all his critics rely on personal attacks and alleged sympathies for communists or fascists, but never question the facts he cites. I don't agree with some of his politics, but factually speaking he is pretty reliable.
Instead of responding to this imaginary leftist in your head, maybe you should try engaging one of us in serious discussion.
There are some great solutions available if you think the effects of Walmart on society are negative.
The first is consumer boycott. Don't shop there yourself and use your influence to persuade other people to voluntarily decide to not shop at Walmart.
The second is share holder influence. Buy stock in Walmart and use your shareholder votes to influence change in corporate practice. You can use your votes and you can influence other shareholders to vote in the same way as you do.
I like both these solutions because they are based on free choice. I'll accept the outcome of your efforts using the means I laid out for you.
Well, does anyone actually expect the US commercial media (Time Warner, News Corps, Disney, Viacom.. The multi-billion dollars corporations that are basically the media oligarchy of the US, owning more than 90% of all media outlets (radio, TV, magazines, newspapers, book publishers), with interests in all economic sectors) to cover favorably Hugo Chavez?
Come on!
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
Yeah, the US should look in its own backyard, with wars of aggression, killing dozens and dozens of thousands of civilians, torturing people in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and Afghanistan, etc..
How misleading, and unaware of the fact that news/commentary outlets have been increasing in number over the years. Your part about controlling newspapers, magazines, and book publishers is flat out wrong.
Go to a big bookstore. Look at the political and commentary magazines. You will find Adbusters, Limbaugh Letter, The Progressive, National Review, and a couple dozen others. The number of publishers involved is close to the number of magazines. No 90% ownership.
Book publishing? Technological advances have resulted in an explosion of new "publish your own" books.
Newspapers? Let me see.... 25 years ago, there was 1 newspaper in my town. Now there are about 5. All over the country, alternative papers have exploded in number.
I see you forgot the Web, as well.
The attempted coup was against Chavez. Chavez being the one who was democraticaly elected. Twice.
No sane person would question the intent and actions of a man who says he is helping the poor. At best, you are probably Rupert Murdoch. At worst, you are probably century-old Hitler posting from a hideout in Argentina.
You're REALLY ignorant about venezuelan facts, aren't you?
Since 1998, Chavez won 8 (yes, EIGHT) elections internationally observed, always with a MAJORITY.
He supports North Korean dictator? They have a common enemy. That's politics.
Do you know how many dictators did USA support in the last 100 years?
I don't have a sig.
What a lame knock off.
Bet this country is going to get it soon.
You need to learn the difference between coercion with guns and the passive "pressure" you perceive based on your own voluntary decisions. "Needing" electricity, computers, cars, new clothes, video games, tasty modern food, and being "forced" to generate money for those items is only comparable to being forced with guns for someone with no perspective whatsoever.
I recommend you assholes go live in South America, China and Cuba for a few years each and then come back and try and compare it to America. Yeah, the War on Drugs is comparable to Chinese totalitarian suppression of political dissidence... right. You must have no perspective whatsoever. There are thousands of pro-drug, anti-Drug War, anti-IRS books and websites in publication and have been for decades now, people demonstrate openly about both issues frequently and they are hot button political topics. Local areas have passed their own tax and drug laws. Medical marijuana has been a reality in many states for years now. Tell me, where are the equivalent political movements in China on analogous issues? Dead, crushed under tank treads, shot in the head, stowed in dungeons - that's where.
Also, in case you haven't looked lately the U.S. has one of the highest per capita prison populations of any country in the world.
You equivocating asshole, since there is no way of getting accurate figures about the number of prisoners a totalitarian regime has stowed away, what significance is that number except in comparison to other civilized nations? Besides, since when do totalitarian regimes have to worry about large prison populations? They normally seem to come to the conclusion that mass graves are cheaper than prisons, unless they need slave labor to exploit.
our buddy boy is out to beat saddam's record!
He supports North Korean dictator? They have a common enemy
Restive subjects.
Yeah, that's what the opposition said. Never mind that besides 'pinko' Carter, both the OAS and the Bush administration (which is quite hostile to Chavez and had every reason not to accept the results) said there was no evidence of fraud.
What's that you say, you found a blog that supports your claims? Well a blog, that's some real solid evidence there. Quick, get President Bush on the phone and instruct him to no longer recognize Chavez as the President of Venezuela!
Little reported is that Castro inherited a very high literacy rate from the previous Cuban governments. He did not make Cuba literate: it already was. That is all said and good. However, the value of literacy is reduced somewhat when the government has so many bans on what you can print or read.
Bastista was bad, but certainly not worth punishing Cuba by imposing a totalitarian dictatorship over it.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
born there, lived there 'til recently... rest of the family still there... I, for one, get my info from my family directly... CNN? no thanks... What about you? no, no, YOU are funny
will work for Karma
If he thinks like a dictator and acts like a dictator... IS A DICTATOR!
Because democratically elected leaders tend to not fall in line with the US, so the US encourages coups to put friendly dicators in place instead (and this is a historical tendency of US intervention in Latin America -- Pinochet is another example).
It's amazing his government and democracy has thus far survived CIA "intervention", but make no mistake that's one thing the CIA specializes in. Putting friendly (often dictators) in place by "forming" populist movements and by tampering with elections.
In some ways it'd be surprising for a superpower to behave any other way (before any one accuses me of hating America), the Romans did it, the Brittish did it, the Spanish did it, etc. Of course you want "your man" in charge.
Pinochet replaced a Soviet puppet dictator. Allende had already turned Chile into a single-party state, and he had invited in stormtroopers from East Germany to enforce his reign of terror: what kind of democrat would do THAT?
ever heard of corruption?
I will tell you stories of people voting in the same municipalities for nearly 20 years. Last referendum? They were not allowed to vote in the same place. Why? Their names were 'registered' in a different municipality, IN A DIFFERENT CITY and STATE. So you would have to get on a plane to go there and stand in line for HOURS to vote. If you had no money or time to do this, you would not be allowed to vote. period.
Most people I have heard of in this situation (personally, and I am not talking about CNN as the other AC suggested) were NO voters. Have not heard of a YES voter with the same problems.
How about Cubans sworn in as citizens as long as they voted for him?
There are other signs of rigged elections but I cannot personally confirm those so I will leave them out for the sake of discussion as I cannot rely on more than rumours (some more confirmed than others).
will work for Karma
It is a pretty small number compared to the typical Soviet-imposed bloodbath that would have happened as Allende continued. Many of Pinochet's victims were innocent, but many were not. The ones who were not included the Soviet agents whose families (from Spain) sued Pinochet. The parent poster did have a good point: post-Soviet (post 1973) Chile did have a few experiments in good government alongside the dictatorship brutality.
This 'hatred' thing of the leaders of little countries is almost always just a propaganda description. Remarks that are used as proof are remarks that are only intended for national consumption. Most people at that level can put their own emotions aside if needed and look at their interests, or their state interests.
I suppose the US administration would find Chavez easy to get along with , if they thought it was in their interest. I suppose that, since the failed coup and the failed midterm election, they're becoming somewhat ambivalent.
If one looks at the situation with a little bit of distance, and reason, arguments such as those put forth here that "well, he's against the US, so he must be ok" don't really hold much water.
d =3084355
Chavez can probably best be described as a 'populist' rather than a socialist.
Read about him at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%E1vez
Note that he attempted a coup against the then president himself at one point.
The Economist talks about him some - they don't like him, but the coverage is reasonable:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_i
I think their points are reasonable, just as I thought their reasons for not voting for Bush were well thought out.
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
Thankfully the penguins and polar bears live about opposite poles. Otherwise the penguins would have a lot to contend with along with the seals...
Michael Moore started out as a nobody. He got rich and famous because he engaged in head-on attacks with capitalists and conservatives. Despite ABC, Maher's career has only benefited from his stances.
"Daniel Ellsberg, Martin Luther King Jr., the Chicago Seven, JFK, RFK and Ralph Nader are better example of people who challenged the powers that be and suffered various forms of retribution"
Careful that you don't tread off the deep end. JFK, RFK, and MLK were killed by nuts, not the elites. Nader was not killed by anyone (quite thankfully) and he has enough power that he was able to "spoil a win" for GWB in the first election. He has been at his peak of power recently, only suffering "retribution" of those who didn't want him to "spoil one for the W" again. This is the Left, by the way. I don't know much about the Chicago 7, except for Tom Hayden, who is quite successful and powerful in his quiet way.
"I think they ended up being used by the people they hate and did more harm than good to their cause"
That is true for Nader with his "Spoil one for the W" campaigns. However, it is not true for the others. I ask you to find one study that shows "I voted for Bush because I hate Michael Moore" was a factor in the election.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I'll grant you that I haven't heard of Chavez cracking down on his nation's own media as badly as, say, Putin, but that statement's almost laughable. How much air time does Chavez demand from broadcasters for his longwinded speeches? How many stations really want to broadcast every pronouncement, every staged episode of Halo Presidente (a Sunday morning call-in show that somehow manages to only get calls from people who adore el presidente)?
I was in Caracas in the summer of 2001, and while I was there, Chavez threatened to deport any foreign journalist that wrote unfavorably of his administration. Maybe he has only threatened foreigners and you think that's alright. I don't.
Maybe not, but Chavez has threatened to imprison high-ranking Venezuelan military officials for criticizing his regime. And his ability to demand/seize airtime on Venezuelan broadcast media doesn't exactly creat a "level playing field". This is the most laughable part of your Chavez apology. Most Americans and "westerners" think of "constitutions" as old, revered documents that protect individual rights. In the United States, we have a tradition of altering the constitution infrequently, in ways that expand personal liberties and restrict state power. It's the opposite in Venezuela. Chavez sees the constitution as a piece of legislation ripe for amending, and his changes usually expand the power of the Venezuelan execuive branch (i.e., his individual power). The current Venezuelan constitution was written by Chavez all of five years ago. "All their civil rights" -- what does that mean? Intimidation, torture, police turning a blind eye to mob lynchings?I hope you're right about your second and third points -- this could turn out well for FOSS if Venezuela becomes a viable, convincing case study for the "open source" merits of FOSS. But I fear it's more likely to be (or at least be seen as) a political anti-US, anti-capitalist "free software" ploy by a socialism-spouting power-hungry tyrant (just 'cos Hugo won the election doesn't mean he's not a tyrant).
That is a euphemism for a totalitarian, Stalinist economy. A democratic economy is one that the government controls. It is one where elites make all the decisions instead of the individuals. Capitalism is much more preferable to that.
' 2, The is nothing "communists" in Venezuela '
Yet, in your words, you describe how the government is trying to take over the entire economy.
You are portraying Chavez in a bad light when you say that his government plans to control all of the economy in a "democratic" fashion.
If one looks at the situation with a little bit of distance, and reason, arguments such as those put forth here that "well, he's against the US, so he must be ok" don't really hold much water.
Reading this thread, I see:
1. I hate the US, Chavez isn't so bad.
or
2. I love the US, Chavez is a dictator.
anyone here for
3. I hate the US, Chavez is a dictator.
or
4. I love the US, Chavez isn't so bad.
????
If he thinks like a dictator and acts like a dictator... IS A DICTATOR!
Sweet, so we can all start reffering to Bush as a dictator without being modded flamebait?
It is a popular misperception that "Lenin overthrew the Czar". I used to have it myself. Then I learned that, at this time in history, the Czar was long since overthrown, and it was a new democratic government that Lenin overthrew. If you are forced to summarize the entire Russian revolution in 4 words, you might say "Lenin overthrew the Czar", but once you look at the details, you will see it is not true.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
It's amazing his government and democracy has thus far survived CIA "intervention", but make no mistake that's one thing the CIA specializes in.
Just curious - since you think along these lines: Ukraine's Yuschenko - western intervention or democratically elected leader?
That was before he was in power.
Not Bill Clinton when Fox News reports on his felony conviction.
You mean Fox News said something bad about Clinton? No shit!
Not Dick Cheney when O'Reilly harps on his secrecy
After endlessly praising his administration and presenting their ideological framework as the backdrop for his 'no spin zone'. I'm sure Cheney is real upset with Fox.
Yeah, he sounds pissed.
Substitute "people" for "the Right" and you've got a valid statement there. Assuming that "the other side" is the only one who refuses to see the facts is a pretty universal human trait.
Those on the left/liberal leaning side are no better at processing data objectively than anyone else. We're all frickin' morons who don't want to listen. End result is that nobody on the entire planet has a fucking clue what is really happening. Ever.
Venezuela Embraces Linux and Open Source Software, but Faces Challenges
By: Cleto A. Sojo - Venezuelanalysis.com
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1
Venezuela's Public Administration to Use Open Source Software
By: Gregory Wilpert - Venezuelanalysis.com
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1
Yet.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
would be to consider making some friends.
Machiavelli said "it is better to be feared than to be loved", which was OK for medieval Florence, but Europe has moved beyond that nowadays.
Now it is a good idea to aim for respect and interdependence.
communists believe that all property and means of production (companies) should be put into the hands of the government. marx specifically said this would have to be done using "despotic" means. people do not like it when their property is stolen. and when all that power and wealth is put into the hands of the state, the few people who run the government are going to abuse it. the more extreme your brand of socialism, the more likely you will get a blood bath. stalinists were pretty extreme.
capitalism spreads the wealth and power around to the people instead of concentrating it in one person or organization.
Never mind the fact that the blog you source lists a followup study which refutes the fraud findings.
Well done, indeed.
Free Manning, jail Obama.
The best politician in the world right now.....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Mod the parent up!
I don't know which article you read, baquiano, but there was no mention of open source software. Is Venezuela looking for freedom or looking for a development process? I hope they want freedom. Too many people, I think, are afraid to use the term "free software" because it is seen as being assosiated with fanatics, or RMS. Don't be afraid. And don't be tricked into thinking that free software and open source software refer to the same thing.
>Click here [washingtonpost.com] to see the drift towards totalitarianism in Venezuela documented.
That's like the 10000000th time I've seen that link posted here. Let me make something clear.
An editorial is not a reliable source. Everyone is always condemning 'bias' in this outlet or that outlet. An editorial is a newspaper article that is openly biased. Please do not cite an editorial to support your political assertions. I know, it looks good to have [washingtonpost.com] at the end of your statement, but please, stick to facts if you want to "document" anything.
Venezuela is a country so mismanaged that its economy is in the crapper despite the fact that the country is practically floating on a sea of oil. Not exactly the Good Houskeeping seal of approval there.
the "piece of journalism" you link to is a unatributed editorial from the columbian civil war "special report" section of the washington post (registration required AND a @#^@ pop-up ad which in itself qualifies them as satans brood) if all i read was unatributed editorials from european papers i might believe that the united states was a facist dominionist christian theocracy with NBC WMD on a global crusade against humanity and all kinds of weird sh*t :P
How apt.
gewg_
I also like it when someone comes to power in a nation with lots of wealth but enormous poverty and tries to spread some of the wealth to the masses, a healthy, wealthy populous maybe key for moving from backwater to world power.
Play Command HQ online
It'd be nice if you (as in all who this applies to) would stop thinking of Chavez as a socialist in any sense. His populist rethoric is definitely socialist, but it's just that: populist rethoric; bullshit, in layman's terms. Chavez is a totalitarian, militaristic president responsible for numerous violations of basic human rights, multiple cases of murder (both directly and indirectly), widespread political repression, and bringing this country down to shit.
That's, erm, not what socialism is about.
And you completely ignore the last 10 years of history in Venezuela where Chavez himself was the one leading the coup against the President of the time.
The failed 'recall' has been as rumoured to be rigged and fraudulent as the involvement of Bush in the coup you mention. Which of course, nobody can fully prove. So, which conspiracy group should I believe then? yours? others?
You say people hate the right wing so much down there as if you knew exactly what they think (then again, maybe you do). So do you mind explaining exactly what makes you think that people hate the right wing so much? Do you know anyone there? or are you getting the news from an Irish crew video/documentary?
Nothing personal, I am just curious for the sake of discussion....
will work for Karma
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, I guess.
will work for Karma
... but since I am still in christmasy mood, I will oblige.
Those programmers get jobs:
- Customazing the software that is out there: this is not a fantasy, in my company we have modified versions of many utilities like ssh, scsu, rsync and many others.
- Putting all the disjoint parts together: there is a tremendous amount of software out there but very often you need to glue it all together. The cost of paying a few programmers to do so is very often substantially lower than buying a commercial product.
- Education and training: somebody has to teach all the new Linuz zealots.
- Commercial support: many companies are demanding commercial, professional support for different FLOSS products.
- Commercialization of improved software: many examples out there of FLOSS software with value added in the form of improvements, support, dcoumentation, etc.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In the UK the current goverment (Labour for crying out loud, they used to be the left) has outsourced most imporant IT projects to private companies in the last years.
More often than not the projects have been grossly over budget, late or cancelled alltogether due to the private companies' inability to deliver.
Your capitalist fundamentalistic ranting will have no credibility whatosever with any person that bothers to read a serious newspaper.
As usual the answer is somewhere in the middle, sometimes goverments get it spectacularly right, sometimes terribly worng, but private industry is not much better.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... if you can't even look at the fscking code you are paying for?
With Open Source everybody is open to accountability, which I thought was a prerequisite when it comes to projects undertaken by any democratic goverment.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you agree that their oil revenue can be their economic salvation, don't look at Chavez. Chavez only made OPEC stronger since he was elected, that's the reason the US is so pissed off at him. And if the coup had succeeded, you can be sure the American pupet would have increased production and lowered oil prices.
The only ones against Chavez are the wealthy & those that are in the pocket of the US, oh & those they pay, like the oil workers that were paid to strike by their management, because the management wanted to keep the oil dosh going into their pockets rather than the govt's pocket, which owned the oil wells.
What's happening in Venezuala is no different to what happened in Iran in the early 50's, when the US overthrew the democratically elected leader, Dr Mossadegh & introduced 25 years of tyrany under the Shah & the CIA trained Savak.
The standard reason people immigrate from so-called poor countries to so-called rich countries
Congratulations, Catbeller, you finally seem to get it! Took you really long, didn't it? That's true, some people just don't value logic and consistency as much as you apparently do. I believe there even was a fancy name for it in the book that Orwell fella wrote... :)
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
" since when venezuela is a dictatorship ? just because president hugo chávez is socialist ?"
;)
Since when? are you nuts? i live in Venezuela and he is a fucking dictadorship, if you are not agree with goverment then you end up in jail, his fans hurts you, you don't have access to documents as your ID, passport, since you signed up in last referendum, and now with the new media law, goverment is who decide what is good for you to watch, do you think this is a democracy?
And for you baquiano, democratically elected? don't make me laugh, everyone knows that elections were a total FRAUD, he DOES NOT have the support of most people, why he didn't want to go to elections withouth considering the crisis that Venezuela has now?
Didn't you notice that many machines of SmartMatic when people reviewed it after elections they found that the option in favor of Chavez getting out of the presidency had a top?.
Carter is a troll, he also approved fraud in Peru with Fujimori some years ago too.. so anonybody can trust in him really..
Venezuelan media enjoys of freedom and independence? LOL! yeah for sure"! that's why almost everytime reporters of private channels get injured by Chavez's people and nothing happens, that's why now goverment is gonna decide what is good for you to see, that's why in official events private media don't have access to the information, yeah independence... SURE!
You can't compare LULA or Kirchsner with dictactor Chavez... Lula believes in a real democratic revolution, what do you think we are getting like with Castro as the mentor of Chavez? I've never seen Lula looking for his opponents and persecute them, geeting them in jail just because they are not with the "process".
What has Chavez done for Venezuela? NOTHING GOOD, people doesn't have job, insecurity rates are much higher than ever, there are kids in the streets and he doesn't care about that, everything is too expensive, many many factories has closed due to Chavez's political discurse of confrontation and division, so is that good for you? Without count that in last years Venezuela has recieved MANY MANY money from oil, but he preffers to stole it, or spend it buying a new airplane...
Now, for me, the ONLY thing that Chavez had done well is this of Free Software and i support this idea and project.
It is like you had a big speech bashing me for saying how good the US government was in the 1960s all prepared. You launched it as soon as I replied. You apparently did not bother to read my reply, in which I spoke of Hoover spying on everyone, and spoke of "persecution" by the government.
"You were saying America doesn't persecute its political dissidents, well it obviously does"
Something else you would not have said if you had read what I had written, when I wrote also of persecution of political dissidents. In fact, I think I used the word "persecute" to describe it before you did!
"I doubt you will see the Chicago Seven today because everyone today is afraid they would be arrested"
"If the same thing happened today they might well be arrested and held indefinitely, on terrorism charges"
Has this happened to Michael Moore? Or to any actual dissident?
At last some disagreement. More than halfway through your mistaken rant, you come to this. Michael Moore, George Soros, and many others dissent all over the media, quite eloquently, with no fear of torture. Perhaps you think that Moore is a wimp compared to the Chicago 7. I don't. He is loud, he is eloquent, and he does not flinch from sticking to GWB.
"You didn't see any real protests at the conventions this year though there is massive rage at the current government, why because everyone is afraid of the current government."
If you didn't see any, your head was in a box on a shelf somewhere. Tens of thousands took to the streets to protest the Republicans in New York. There were also other huge protests all during 2004 (and 2003) at other times to commemorate/condemn certain events. Some of these were of record size. I suspect that more protested the Republicans in 2004 than protested the Democrats back in 1968 (Chicago 7). I could be wrong on this, however.
"The fact that the U.S. is denying people, including American citizens due process and the right to protest"
Have you ever read the 1st Amendement? It includes a right to assemble. This right still applies even to Republicans and Nazis. Many of the protest organizers declared that they want to "shut down" the convention. That is, they wanted to deny the Republicans the right to assemble. The poorly named "free speech" zones and other policies allowed massive protests to take place anyway: protecting both the right to assemble and the right to free speech. The same intolerance for the 1st Amendment also was exhibited by protesters at the WTO in Seattle a few years ago. They crosseed the line when they tried to "shut down" the peaceful assembly of their opponents. I respect your right to say something, but I don't respect your right to shut someone up using violence and intimidation.
What is lacking in some is the idea that "free speech is for me, but not for you". They wanted to say what they wanted to say, but wanted to deny the Republicans the right to assemble and say what they want at their convention. Not only does this toss the 1st Amendment in the gutter, it is outright rude.
Your earlier claim, several parents up, was that dissent is not allowed in America. Do you have any examples of this?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Have you been watching the X Files too much? Some compared the Kennedy adminsitration to Camelot. Well, it is clear it is becoming more like King Arthur in other ways too. Long ago, in post-Roman Britain, there was likely a leader named Arturus or something like that. Over the years, legend accumulated on his story, legend that some think is fact.
The JFK assassination is the same way. A lot of fiction has been added, and more and more people believe a body of legend made from whole cloth.
"Chances are just unavoidably high there were two or three snipers involved"
Actually, there is only evidence of one. The others are part of a growing team of phantoms created from the fevre dreams of those who get the chills when they see the Illimunati Pyramid on the dollar bill. Like the fictional Merlin who was added to the Arthur tale, we have bogeys popping up on grassy knolls. There is no indications of any conspiracy, or involvement by anyone other than Oswald. We already know who was behind it, and have for many years. However, like with Merlin and King Arthur, I guess it is fun to believe, isn't it?
"because the establishment didn't want to know or want us to know."
Obviously, this must be the same "establishment" that murders the inventors who made the 400 MPG carburetor, and has hushed up all the alien craft landing in the western desert...
"What is it inside your head that makes you so desperate to believe everything your government tells you"
I don't believe the government. However, I believe Art Bell even less.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
"... wannabe dictator is the President-select publicly endorsed by Dubbya who only managed to seize and hold to power for less than twenty four hours."
2 00 4_04_11_caracaschronicles_archive.html#10819355287 7447132
Pedro Carmona didn't "seize" power in Venezuela.
After a day of protests that were growing more violent, the head of the military,, General Lucas Rincón went on television and told the country that the President had resigned.
The next morning the military asked Carmona to assume the presidency.
The US recognized Carmona because the military had told everybody he was the new president.
Your next question: Why did Lucas Rincón announce the resignation? He must have been part of the "plot". If so, it was a very strange plot. Rincón is still in the Chavez government, in fact, he's been promoted several times.
http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/archives/
(If it breaks: http://tinyurl.com/6dvp6 )
Steven
Oh please! Don't tell me that you don't know all the populist stuff and media censorship going on in Venezuela? The journalists threatened? His constant use of conspiracy theories to say that he is a hero and such?
If you can't see the similarities between Chavez and Bush, then you're F'ing blind. They look like clones, for Gandhi's sake! Just because he hates the US, doesn't make him a hero. Stalin also hated the US. DOH.
Venezuela isn't composed of states, so your comparison of Venezuela's elections to the US' falls flat. Venezuela's elections were monitored by international observers, and I didn't hear them cry foul when it was over.
Bah. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
Hitler sent all the real Marxists (Socialists/Communists) to concentration camps or had them shot.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.