Slashdot Mirror
Venezuela Moves Further Toward Open Source
baquiano writes "Today the Venezuelan press reports that the government has formally issued a decree (English translation) which prioritizes the use of free/open source software over proprietary systems in government entities. This follows a year of pilot deployments in Venezuela's Info Centros (Internet public access points) and some ministries. (Past attempts, reported by Slashdot, by former Minister of Science and Technology Felipe Perez Marti to push ahead this initiative were allegedly foiled by Microsoft.) The decree calls for plans to actively deploy FOSS during a 24-month period."
I don't mean to be too cynical, but I'm sure even the Venezualan people would admit that they are not the foremost force in world IT. Quite right, this is a victory for Open Source, but could we save the dancing in the streets for when a slightly more major player joins our side?
This reminds me of Bush's hilarious "You forgot Poland!" in the first presidential debate.
apterous.org
This is a positive development. However, as President Chavez has stated that he plans to model Venezuela after Castro's Cuba, in the end this won't amount to software developer/user freedom or efficiency.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
To the list of sponsors of the next coup attemp?
Did Bill hire Inspector Gadget or something to keep the Venezuelan authorities from going open-source?
Anybody got tape on this, so to speak?
...how Microsoft can get away with determining the priorities and policies of foreign governments. How often in history does a private enterprise have this much power?
In any case, I applaud Venezuela now for actually paying attention to this kind of thing. Think about how many other issues they have to deal with, yet they still managed to account for stuff like this (cost to government for software). Look at where we are in many other countries, including the US. How many government officials here in America could you actually convince to launch a campaign promoting free software? Not many, if any.
Take off every sig. For great justice.
191 to go!
but i guess this is a good win for Open Source, it can't be bad
A new world order has arisen with Microsoft now in charge of most of the world's armies, they have vowed to crush insurgents in countries with ties to the Open Source Software Initiative.
"We need to defend liberty and freedom everywhere," World Leader Gates said. "If we don't stop open source overseas, we'll soon be fighing Linux in our own homes."
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
Does open vs closed source really matter when the government ends up owning and controlling all the software?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
The CIA won't be happy -- they won't be able to break into Venezuelian systems anymore.
All the proprietary software goes on strike and marches through the streets, demanding the overthrow of the president.
sulli
RTFJ.
I read the article and there's nothing in it detailing why free software was chosen over non-free software. I do assume that the reason has something to do with the software not costing the government any money. However, I would like to see some administrative benchmarks (increased civil happiness, etc...) to see if free software really does cause the government to lead more effectively than non-free software.
This would apply equally to Apple et al.
Say what you will about Macs, I for one would hate to be involved in government printing down there once this kicks in.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
This doesn't yet mean much but, at least it's a step in the right direction.
If governments continue to promote open source, i don't know who this would be a bigger victory. Open source? Standards?...
For example like the once set by World Wide Web Consortium that Microsoft never really bothered to comply with.
Tomorrow on Slashdot: a warm and fuzzy article about the North Korean dictator being enlightened because he uses Firefox.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Personally I suspect Chavez says most of it for effect. He obviously enjoys pissing off the Yanquis. Once upon a time, when the UK had been largely isolated from European in-fighting, the English enjoyed pissing off the Continentals by mocking their political theories and their habits. It was a way of relieving the tension of living next to powerful neighbors who might turn nasty at any moment.
Unfortunately the US has a remarkable degree of paranoia about any country that turns even mildly pink in what it sees as its own backyard. The result has been gross overreaction in places like Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba and, most ludicrously of all, Grenada. It's not surprising that the poor people of the South can easily be made to see the US as the enemy. I hope that the FOSS movement can remain sufficiently politically neutral that it is seen as favoring no particular economic model, but that it will flourish in any economy where independent thought and individual cooperation are valued. The strong German contribution to FOSS, along with the input from the former USSR/Warsaw Pact bloc, suggests that this may well happen. In the meantime, let's not confuse a noisy politician with a country.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
I don't think that Venezeula is making choices here. The "President" won the recent referendum by ordering physical assaults against opponents. (At least he did not use dioxin poisoning!) He has announced intent to wipe out the grassroots labor union movement and to put the press under government control. It is overall not a very "open source" situation, nor it is a situation in which the Venezuelans are making choices. Chavez views Fidel Castro as his political mentor. This is not conducive to democracy.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
From wikipedia.org...... The British East India Company, popularly known as "John Company", was founded by a Royal Charter of Queen Elizabeth I on December 31, 1600. Over the next 250 years, it became one of the most powerful commercial enterprises of its time. The British East India Company's business was centered on India, where it also acquired auxiliary governmental and military functions which came to overshadow its commercial activities. Based in Leadenhall Street, London, the company influenced all continents: it presided over the creation of British India, founded Hong Kong and Singapore, employed Captain Kidd to combat piracy, established the cultivation of tea in India, held Napoleon captive on Saint Helena and made the fortune of Elihu Yale. Its products were the subject of the Boston Tea Party. Microsoft doesn't hold a candle to this company!
Well if Washington has its way, he might be around for much longer.
Now that the Venezuelan technology powerhouse has jumped on this bandwagon, I think the rest of the world will stand up and finally take notice of this Open Source thing!
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
Having said that, it's not inconceivable they're trying to get bargaining power with Microsoft, but I find it more likely that they really are committed to saving money and sticking two fingers up to the US (which hates them).
Well.. ofcourse I screwed it up beyond anyones belief... So here's my PROPER release of the parent post:
In soviet venezuela microsoft puts tinfoil hats on YOU.
Apple built a platform for their ideas, Google built one for everyone's.
This joke is about 40 years too late... we changed the name from United States of Venezuela to Republic of Venezuela ín 1961 (and again to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela in 1999)... :)
I find it ironic that a country like Venezuela embraces open source. Venezuela is lurching towards a command driven enconomy, crushing dissent, and limiting personal freedoms. The utopia envisioned by the communists in Venezuela could never give rise to silicon valley and the oss phenomenon. The personal freedoms of life in the USA create technology and tools that are then made use of in closed societies. That's ironic.
I just feel warm and fuzzy all over.
I want some of that infallible software!
By inference, their translation software must be OSS...
What is the difference between a real song and a simulated song?
its not a rant at all, in fact it make a lot of good points.
Always interesting how someone, in this case Chavez or Castro, can be seen as a Good Guy and as a Bad Guy, depending on whom you ask...
They say the first casualty of war is the Truth. This applies when talking of software FUD wars as well as politics...
Animoog.org
Sir/Madam:
If I had a thousand mod points, they would all go to your post undoubtedly.
Well said....
will work for Karma
I for one, welcome our open source overlords. ...
;-)
Ok I'm gonna lose karma for this one...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I glanced at the title quickly, saw "Venezuela Moves Further...", and immediately thought that Venezuela was somehow affected by that earthquake.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Evidence?
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
Personally I don't see this having any effect other than public offices changing to linux and open source programs. It will give more jobs in the public sector to programmers, which is a good thing considering the huge unemployment right now, but the regular people will just continue using their pirated copies of programs. To put things in perspective, I live in the 4th biggest city in the country, and where the electricity (hydro) for most of Venezuela and part of Colombia and Brazil is generated, plus a big producer of iron, steel, aluminum and lots of other minerals exported worldwide... but yet I don't know of any place here where I could buy legitimate software.. while at the same time just walking from my home to work everyday I pass in front of at least 4 places that sell pirated DVDs, music and software.. and I don't mean shady places in the back of a van or soemthing, but huge places with neon signs advertising pirated stuff for sale... heck, I've seen several next to police stations with police people buying on them frequently. People here just don't know about open source, because there's just not a culture of paying for software at all, most people don't even realize that buying a burned CD with the latest software on it, a crack and a serial written on the label is illegal... and last time I heard of something being done about it was 4 or 5 years ago when the BSA did a campaign against piracy, closed down several stores and placed fines on people... and things were back again like it was before within a week.
If I had to guess, I'd say this is more about president Chavez sticking it up to the US in any way he can (after all, we're talking about a guy that called Bush an asshole in public chained TV.. and for those that don't know "chained" means that the president can "chain" all the public TV and radio stations so that they're forced to display whatever he wants, usually him giving one of his 2 or 3+ hours speeches, which he does very frequently... times like those makes me feel pity for those that can't afford cable TV), and as I said, I really doubt it'll have any effect outside of the public offices... and if the ones I've gone to, in this city and in the capitol, even then they have so few computers and so outdated the effect will be minimal... we use to joke around that anytime we hear the sound of an old style typewriter (that old tac-tac-tac), that it sounds like a public office.. :)
I think Open Source solutions are good choices if there is good support if things go wrong but they often require more expertise by the IT people and can be costly if they have to customize or otherwise wade through the often poorly written documentation just to compile and install.
This is where MS flexes their corporate muscle--they make CTOs feel good about spending m/billions on their solutions.
If MS and Open Source were men:
Open Source would be the quiet mysterious geek who can't utter a sentence without geek speak but is pretty nice looking and gentle. He's sincere and eager but doesn't have lots of money. He's usually polite and makes you feel quite comfortable though you have to pay for his meals now and then.
MS would be the tall, dark, and handsome fraternity boy with a new Porsche who slips you some Rohypnol and you wake up naked and screwed with an empty wallet. He throws wild parties at your place but doesn't check the guest list very well. Your stuff keeps getting stolen and you keep finding creeps living and hiding in your closets. You notice on the wall that you have a marriage certificate on the wall and it's signed in your blood. You're Mrs. Satan.
Maybe I took that a little too far...but you get the point.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
Sorry bud, you've been listening to the CIA propaganda a little too much. Chavez defeated an incumbent in a democratically held election in a landslide victory.
It doesn't get more democratic than that. The real wannabe dictator is the President-select publicly endorsed by Dubbya who only managed to seize and hold to power for less than twenty four hours.
But it is the fifth largest oil producer in the world and the Oil industry is nationalized. A move to open source by a huge oil company (Citgo belongs to PDVSA, the Venezuelan oil company) means a lot of opportunities for guys like me (several years of experience in linux) to make a buck. Hey! The fact that I am venezuelan might even help, uh? Not all of us in latin america live in mud-huts like Hollywood might like you to think. Maybe a little traveling will open up your eyes and maybe help you make a dollar or two.
Chavez understands that if he leans toward the poor and economically repressed he gets reelected. He also has the smarts to trade oil to Cuba in exchange for transferring teachers and medical workers from Cuba to Venezuela. This is a page from classic socialism. His backing open source makes sense for his vision of a Latin American trade zone. I find this a positive aspect of his recent reelection. On the downside, there is oppression, but, not anything worse than most of our friends overseas.
since when venezuela is a dictatorship ? just because president hugo chávez is socialist ?
don't forget that he defeated the right wing in a failed atempt of a coup and was kept in power after winning a recall poll. he has twice the legitimacy as your warrior president, george junior.
plus, a "decree" is not just a tool for dictators. other full fledged democracies have the so called "decree". assume the word to be little more than a regulation signed by the president of a democratic nation exerting the powers granted to him/her by the constitution. nothing that a rule from congress or from the supreme court can't overturn.
What ? Me, worry ?
Do you even know what you're talking about? The Venezuelan private television channels all participated in the Coup. Chavez's reaction wasn't ugly if you consider what they did in the first place.
Nice troll... but since I've seen other misinformed posts been modded up, I feel the need to reply.
First, Chavez is not a dictator. He was democratically elected, and recently won a referendum on his mandate, which was endorsed by international observers. Also, I can personally tell you that the Venezuelan media enjoys a high degree of freedom and independence, the opposition has never been outlawed, and Venezuelans have all their civil rights protected by the Constitution. The problem with Chavez is his tendency to inflamatory speeches, his ultra-nationalistic rhetoric, and his close friendship with Fidel Castro, which gives the casual observer the impression that he's a classic communist dictator. But if you dig a little deeper you will find out that's far from being so. If you judge him by what he has actually done (opposed to what he merely said in ultra-patriotic rallies and speeches directed toward their partisans), you conclude that's he's no more left-leaning than Brazilian President Lula or Argentinian Nestor Kirchner. And no one is accussing the latter two of being dictators.
Second, this step from Venezuela may have important implications for Latin America. If a country manages to successfully switch an important part of his governmental software infrastructure to FOSS, it might start a landslide of investment in FOSS in other Latin American countries, as the local goverment is usually the biggest spender in IT in Latin American countries.
Third, this is not a ploy to getter deal from Microsoft (they already did that), since is a decree -- that means it's official policy, not something you can casually use to bargain a better deal from a vendor.
You're bound to be unhappy if you optimize everything. --Donald Knuth
When the Israeli Gov. decided to go open source (and Israel does have a strong IT community).. it was, correctly, interpreted as snubbing microsoft .
A ministry of finance spokeswoman said: "Office includes software that we don't use, and if you buy individually it costs much more than as a package."
Sounds familiar?
Even though Venezuela's GDP is SkyRocketing, I'm still sure they're happy to save a few bucks.
From what I see, president Hugo Chavez has a deep hatred towards the U.S. And he sees any american company as a threat to his government. In other words, his move towards open source is not to be seen as something "defending the rights of the people", but rather as an instrument of pressure.
Frankly I don't care what happens with software on Venezuela... I just want the guy out.
and sticking two fingers up to the US (which hates them).
For those of us in the US, that be the equivelent of 'flipping the bird'.
bork bork bork!
'Venezuela Moves Further Toward Open Source' should read
'Venezuela Moves Closer Toward Open Source' or 'Venezuela Moves Further From Open Source'
Judging by the article, 'Venezuela Moves Closer Toward Open Source' is correct
if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
Saddam used to issue decrees all the time. In democratic societies nobody tries to shove shit down your throat by issuing decrees. If open source is better than let it win on its own merit
did you forget to take your meds?
According to this article IBM and Novell also working to promote the use of Open Source in Venezuela.
There is a good overview of Venezuelan government efforts so far -- including in the huge national oil company PDVSA (which owns Citgo in the US) -- to use and promote Open Source software here.
Whats your definition of opression?
How do you distinguish opression from a legal measure taken by the government.
Remember: Venezuela's government was democratically elected (and then re elected) by a fair majority, bigger than the one that re elected Bush.
If the government respects the Constitution, your use of the word opression means nothing but the fact that you dont agree.
If you are talking about the Rights of Man, then the question is what rights are being supressed in Venezuela. And, btw if you consider unemployment as opression.
As regards the censorship in Venezuela, private companies seem to be as big a threat as the government.
If Cuba is in such good shape and it's citizens enjoy such a "good life", why do so many of them risk death attempting to cross the sea to Florida in barely seaworthy boats?
/. these days? Yeah, great, so Castro's Cuba has low infant mortality. Hitler got the trains running on time in Germany, too. It doesn't make either of them anything more than fascist strongmen.
I mean, if what you say is true and it is the US that is the totalitarian dictatorship, shouldn't the people requesting political asylum be traveling in the other direction?
Also, why is it that the people who tell me Cuba is such an enlightened society with low infant mortality and high literacy have NEVER, EVER actually LIVED in Cuba?
This is what passes for "Insightful" on
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Im From Venezuela, and i also Follow Slahsdot Very Closely, and seeing this thread about how the Government Adopted a FOSS policy, prompts me to finally create an account and post a good reply to the news.. I, like many other Lug members in this country, where in a Forum whose hosts were mainly RMS and the aforementioned ex-Minister of Technology Felipe Perez Marti In this Forum apart of demostrating other technologies and hearing RMS's Speech, the reasons to adopt Open Source by the Goverment where exposed and these are: 1) Improve Education Trough FOSS 2) Cut Costs in Government IT sectors 3) Develop a joint Strategy With Brazil to Implement FOSS nationwide and not only in Government Agencies and Institutions. 4) Better Access to Technology for Everyone 5) Stay updated in new Software Technolgies 6) Use FOSS in Universities and Superior Education Institutes to Teach others how to implement, use and improve over Open Source. These are the main reasons, altough there are some others that arent as important as these that where what the former minister told the people tha t assisted the forum in November.. RMS couldn't talk properly because he had a horrible flu, and every other word a cough spelled out i see that in some replys to this article, there are Chavez supporters, or "Chavistas" as we call them here, i personally don't like the Chavez Administration, but i cannot disagree with this decree, as it makes a lot of sense even for the private sector, that should start noting a lot more FOSS for now on... Im not going to attack Chavez supporters here, the only thing i say is, before you believe either me or any of them, please, read every media in Venezuela before making an opinion!
You... completely ignore the entire history of the last three years in Venezuela. You've excised the entire coup from your memory. The landslide election. The failed "recall", which was not an election but an attempt to roll back the election AFTER the armed assault on the elected president failed. You ignore Bush's role in the coup, and why the people hate the right wing so much down there.
I... just don't understand how the Right's brains work. You just carry your own reality around with you in a self-contained bubble? You literally do not hear anything which contradicts your version of the universe?
Best metaphore ever. +5 poetic.
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
sure castro's economic policies have done wonders for cuba. thats why 3000 people a year jump on rafts to get the hell out of there. how about comparing them to chile who has had a more or less free market system since 1973. which country has a higher standard of living?
good grief.
http://frankwarner.typepad.com/free_frank_warner/2 004/09/harvard_and_mit.html
Having Peanut Carter endorse an election most assuredly means it was crooked and/or the socialist won...same thing.
And if I had a thousand mod points I'd mod it all the way back down again.
I was talking about the oppression of the current government there. I did not "ignore" the coup history. It was left out because the coup plotters and alternative leaders are not in power, and are not relevant at all to the discussion.
"You ignore Bush's role in the coup"
Why even bring it up when we are talking about the actions of the existing govermment in the country?
"You just carry your own reality around with you in a self-contained bubble? " Are you "trolling", or what? Or are you trying to say that anything the current Venezuelan government does to violate human rights is OK because of Bush's coup? Or are you just trying to change the subject?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Yes, it is more democratic than the US of A.
/. has a massive pro-US bias (and most of its readers come from there).
You have to understand that
<SI>If Bush doesn't like the country then it must be undemocratic (because every one knows that Bush was democratically elected) so we must drop bombs on all the civilians.</SI>
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Sounds like I angered you by comparing one tinhorn dictator to another. Well, if they aren't two peas in a pod, how come Chavez is one of those coming out in support of his North Korean counterpart?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
You are describing exactly what happened when Lenin overthrow a democratic government and seized control of old Russia.
"Capitalism is very good at some things but it has a really nasty dark side, that most American's choose to overlook."
Fact it, Russia is a lot better off now. In the glory days of the communists, hundreds of thousands on average died each year due to starvation and being executed by the leaders. This is very low right now. Even what is going on in Chechnya is nothing compared to the massive casualties in the wars of Lenin, Stalin, Brezhnev, and others.
"All in all you just wish places like Cuba and Venezuela could keep all the good parts of Socialism without the repression"
Then you blame the oppression on the US. I have news for you: the lack of human rights in Cuba is a policy engineered in Havana, not Washington.
"the government does have to repress to keep from being overthrown"
This is not so. Rather, it is an excuse dictators use all the time. You can be 100% certain they'd still be oppressing even if there was not a bogeyman to blame.
"and people internally who want to topple your government, and loot and pillage to get rich..."
That is what Castro did. He is worth billions now, and it is pretty much illegal for the average Cuban to rise above poverty.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I see. You are right. Michael Moore dared to question the US government. As a result, he is rail thin, impoverished, and imprisoned. Al Franken and Bill Maher also lost their careers (no-one remembers who they are anymore) after they criticized the US.
And the Dixie Chicks? Never mind that their sales increased after they insulted GWB. The reason they appeared nude on the cover of a magazine is that they can't afford clothes anymore.
I wish it were another way. I check the nonfiction bestseller lists of 2004 and find nothing but books that say how wonderful Bush and US foreign policy are. There is no dissent. At all.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Thank you.
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
As you all can see everything in Venezuela is highly overshadow by a deep political division. This has been the problem with both Anti-Chavistas and Chavistas alike. :-). The problem is whether they will actually succeed in the project. Such a project will required skills that seem to be absent in Venezuela (both in government and elsewhere) such as organization, efficiency and control.
The reality is that the venezuelan government and people use mostly pirated software, most with full knowledge as copies are sold in streets and Malls, some because they are fooled by counterfeiters. Thus, it is an excellent idea to use Open Source (as an aside, they invited RMS but use Open Source as a term instead of Free Software, that's why Chavez followers have trouble making friends...
I wish them well, but the term you are most likely to hear is "Cuanto hay pa' eso?" (a Venezuelan expression asking how much money they will get from a legal or illegal activity).
There are some great solutions available if you think the effects of Walmart on society are negative.
The first is consumer boycott. Don't shop there yourself and use your influence to persuade other people to voluntarily decide to not shop at Walmart.
The second is share holder influence. Buy stock in Walmart and use your shareholder votes to influence change in corporate practice. You can use your votes and you can influence other shareholders to vote in the same way as you do.
I like both these solutions because they are based on free choice. I'll accept the outcome of your efforts using the means I laid out for you.
Well, does anyone actually expect the US commercial media (Time Warner, News Corps, Disney, Viacom.. The multi-billion dollars corporations that are basically the media oligarchy of the US, owning more than 90% of all media outlets (radio, TV, magazines, newspapers, book publishers), with interests in all economic sectors) to cover favorably Hugo Chavez?
Come on!
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
The web is the only thing that got better, but even there, most people go to cnn.com and so.
As for the rest, it is you who's flat out wrong. I just did a 8000 thousand words paper on media consolidation in the US and that research really frightened me. 5 corporations own over 90% of the 37,000 media outlets in the US, 20 years ago it was 20 corporations, and a 100 years ago each city of any size had at least 3 independent newspapers.
I suggest you read on it and realize that most media outlets you think are independent are actually owned by the big five (hell, Clear Channel has 1200 radio stations about 296 (as of 2003. It takes 10 typed pages to list all the corporations owned by Time Warner, with an annual revenue of almost 300 billion dollars. Bertelsmann is the biggest english-language book publisher in the world and they own basically all the publishing houses you can think of (most of them formely independent but not anymore)) employees, it's centralized to the bone). The Nation and The Progressive and such exist, but they are not mainstream and have very small public shares.
So you do your research.
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
Sorry, I spelled USSR like in Brazil, URSS (União das Repúblicas Socialistas Soviéticas)
Anyway, it's good to see the way you dismiss an argument. Very good.
You're REALLY ignorant about venezuelan facts, aren't you?
Since 1998, Chavez won 8 (yes, EIGHT) elections internationally observed, always with a MAJORITY.
He supports North Korean dictator? They have a common enemy. That's politics.
Do you know how many dictators did USA support in the last 100 years?
I don't have a sig.
Little reported is that Castro inherited a very high literacy rate from the previous Cuban governments. He did not make Cuba literate: it already was. That is all said and good. However, the value of literacy is reduced somewhat when the government has so many bans on what you can print or read.
Bastista was bad, but certainly not worth punishing Cuba by imposing a totalitarian dictatorship over it.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
It's not 1930 anymore. The USA Communist party is dead. I'm pretty far to the left (I didn't like Kerry because I think he's to far to the right) but I'm glad the USSR fell. Same goes for just about every other leftist I've talked to about this. The Soviet Union was an authoratarian empire, good riddence.
You are glad USSR fell. Most leftists are. The question is: didn't they support USSR? Yes, they did. They knew what was going on, but they supported USSR back then. Why? Because it was against USA. Quite simple.
Fact: Socialism will never work. In fact, every single comunist regime was extremely elitist. "What, elitist?" You ask. Yes, elitist. All the population was poor, the food was scarse. Oh, except for the government, of course.
Newsflash. Michael Moore is just a fat guy who made a movie. Get over it.
Michael Moore made a movie, exactly. It was pure fiction. However, some people do "find" some "truth" in his movie(s), which is pretty amazing.
You haven't read anything by Chomsky, have you. I've read a couple of his books, he references everything. If you want to argue that his socialist beleifs are wrong fine, but just making stuff up and dropping his name is so David Horowitz.
Well, I read one of his books. It was like this : "Vatican helped the Nazis, X was paid by Y" etc. Many, many, many of them with no references at all. I wouldn't even need to refute his "facts". Of course I don't COMPLETELY disagree with him, I'm not the kind of pro-USA-all-the-way guy.
It's worth noting that all his critics rely on personal attacks and alleged sympathies for communists or fascists, but never question the facts he cites. I don't agree with some of his politics, but factually speaking he is pretty reliable.
Not that reliable. His arguments are pure hate against USA. The facts he cites don't sum up to his defense of communist regimes.
Instead of responding to this imaginary leftist in your head, maybe you should try engaging one of us in serious discussion.
The "imaginary leftist" was only a joke, a "caricature".
born there, lived there 'til recently... rest of the family still there... I, for one, get my info from my family directly... CNN? no thanks... What about you? no, no, YOU are funny
will work for Karma
If he thinks like a dictator and acts like a dictator... IS A DICTATOR!
ever heard of corruption?
I will tell you stories of people voting in the same municipalities for nearly 20 years. Last referendum? They were not allowed to vote in the same place. Why? Their names were 'registered' in a different municipality, IN A DIFFERENT CITY and STATE. So you would have to get on a plane to go there and stand in line for HOURS to vote. If you had no money or time to do this, you would not be allowed to vote. period.
Most people I have heard of in this situation (personally, and I am not talking about CNN as the other AC suggested) were NO voters. Have not heard of a YES voter with the same problems.
How about Cubans sworn in as citizens as long as they voted for him?
There are other signs of rigged elections but I cannot personally confirm those so I will leave them out for the sake of discussion as I cannot rely on more than rumours (some more confirmed than others).
will work for Karma
This 'hatred' thing of the leaders of little countries is almost always just a propaganda description. Remarks that are used as proof are remarks that are only intended for national consumption. Most people at that level can put their own emotions aside if needed and look at their interests, or their state interests.
I suppose the US administration would find Chavez easy to get along with , if they thought it was in their interest. I suppose that, since the failed coup and the failed midterm election, they're becoming somewhat ambivalent.
If one looks at the situation with a little bit of distance, and reason, arguments such as those put forth here that "well, he's against the US, so he must be ok" don't really hold much water.
d =3084355
Chavez can probably best be described as a 'populist' rather than a socialist.
Read about him at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%E1vez
Note that he attempted a coup against the then president himself at one point.
The Economist talks about him some - they don't like him, but the coverage is reasonable:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_i
I think their points are reasonable, just as I thought their reasons for not voting for Bush were well thought out.
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
Thankfully the penguins and polar bears live about opposite poles. Otherwise the penguins would have a lot to contend with along with the seals...
Michael Moore started out as a nobody. He got rich and famous because he engaged in head-on attacks with capitalists and conservatives. Despite ABC, Maher's career has only benefited from his stances.
"Daniel Ellsberg, Martin Luther King Jr., the Chicago Seven, JFK, RFK and Ralph Nader are better example of people who challenged the powers that be and suffered various forms of retribution"
Careful that you don't tread off the deep end. JFK, RFK, and MLK were killed by nuts, not the elites. Nader was not killed by anyone (quite thankfully) and he has enough power that he was able to "spoil a win" for GWB in the first election. He has been at his peak of power recently, only suffering "retribution" of those who didn't want him to "spoil one for the W" again. This is the Left, by the way. I don't know much about the Chicago 7, except for Tom Hayden, who is quite successful and powerful in his quiet way.
"I think they ended up being used by the people they hate and did more harm than good to their cause"
That is true for Nader with his "Spoil one for the W" campaigns. However, it is not true for the others. I ask you to find one study that shows "I voted for Bush because I hate Michael Moore" was a factor in the election.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
You are glad USSR fell. Most leftists are. The question is: didn't they support USSR? Yes, they did. They knew what was going on, but they supported USSR back then. Why? Because it was against USA. Quite simple. Fact: Socialism will never work. In fact, every single comunist regime was extremely elitist.
So here is the problem I have with your statements. They are all about choosing sides and saying leftists are wrong and rightists are correct. It is all bullcrap. I don't consider myself leftist or right, or conservative, or republican or democrat or libertarian. Why does it always have to be broken into two sides. Is it so hard to actually discuss issues intelligently instead of trying to find a club that you can join. Competition is all well and good as a means to an end, but it is not an end by itself.
What kind of failure in reasoning does it take to make an assertion like "Socialism will never work" and try to claim it as a fact? Have you ever read anything about logic or reasoning? A prediction cannot, by definition, be a fact. Citing previous examples of something not working is not a valid argument as to why something cannot work in the future. In 1200 AD someone may have said, "humans will never fly. people have tried for years to invent flying machines and all failed. Most of them seriously injured themselves. It is a fact that flying machines can never work. "
Most people would have agreed, but they would have been just as wrong as you are. Why don't you stop picking sides, or trying to attack others who believe differently than you and try to look at some of the problems in the world and try to help solve them. Bickering will get you exactly nowhere.
I'll grant you that I haven't heard of Chavez cracking down on his nation's own media as badly as, say, Putin, but that statement's almost laughable. How much air time does Chavez demand from broadcasters for his longwinded speeches? How many stations really want to broadcast every pronouncement, every staged episode of Halo Presidente (a Sunday morning call-in show that somehow manages to only get calls from people who adore el presidente)?
I was in Caracas in the summer of 2001, and while I was there, Chavez threatened to deport any foreign journalist that wrote unfavorably of his administration. Maybe he has only threatened foreigners and you think that's alright. I don't.
Maybe not, but Chavez has threatened to imprison high-ranking Venezuelan military officials for criticizing his regime. And his ability to demand/seize airtime on Venezuelan broadcast media doesn't exactly creat a "level playing field". This is the most laughable part of your Chavez apology. Most Americans and "westerners" think of "constitutions" as old, revered documents that protect individual rights. In the United States, we have a tradition of altering the constitution infrequently, in ways that expand personal liberties and restrict state power. It's the opposite in Venezuela. Chavez sees the constitution as a piece of legislation ripe for amending, and his changes usually expand the power of the Venezuelan execuive branch (i.e., his individual power). The current Venezuelan constitution was written by Chavez all of five years ago. "All their civil rights" -- what does that mean? Intimidation, torture, police turning a blind eye to mob lynchings?I hope you're right about your second and third points -- this could turn out well for FOSS if Venezuela becomes a viable, convincing case study for the "open source" merits of FOSS. But I fear it's more likely to be (or at least be seen as) a political anti-US, anti-capitalist "free software" ploy by a socialism-spouting power-hungry tyrant (just 'cos Hugo won the election doesn't mean he's not a tyrant).
It is a popular misperception that "Lenin overthrew the Czar". I used to have it myself. Then I learned that, at this time in history, the Czar was long since overthrown, and it was a new democratic government that Lenin overthrew. If you are forced to summarize the entire Russian revolution in 4 words, you might say "Lenin overthrew the Czar", but once you look at the details, you will see it is not true.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Some beliefs, if they are very destructive, are worth attacking.
At least as much pain and suffering has been caused by capitalism as by socialism. The thing is, both can be viable economic systems, but are brought low by the nature of people. Greed and the lust for power corrupt both systems. Socialism was (and is) an attempt at a level social structure, without rich people and poor people. Many people are given a great deal more money, power, contacts, and resources than I was to start in life. Many were given a great deal less. This is not fair, but neither is most of life. We all ignore this injustice as are forebears ignored other injustices. Slaves were born into slavery, it wasn't fair, but hey what can you do? You can try to make things as fair as possible for everyone.
You claim that socialism is oppressive and totalitarian, and in many cases, governments ruling over socialist structures were just that. But Hitler, Sadaam Hussein, and George Bush were all elected in democratic societies and all three have denied people their basic human rights and tortured helpless prisoners. All of them have a lake of blood on their hands. The U.S. thinks of itself as the poster child of democracy. It is a joke. The U.S. is not a direct democracy, is not very free compared to many other countries, is horribly corrupt, and has supported some of the most horrible dictators ever. All is not rosy in non-socialist countries.
There is nothing wrong with socialism. The theory of socialism is quite simply to distribute wealth and labor equally among all people. More recent socialism calls for the state ownership of industry. That too, is not bad in and of itself. Some socialist governments have been totalitarian and oppressive. Well that sucks. Feel free to badmouth those regimes or totalitarianism or oppression. Just be sure to note that they occur under both socialist and democratic governments. You've been buying into too much cold war era propaganda my friend. It is not us against them. It is all of us in it together, with some greedy power hungry asshats trying to turn people against each other for their own personal gain. The problem here is not socialism or democracy. It is greed, anger, hatred, power-lust, inequality, and oppression. It is the way people behave and think. And democracy + capitalism is just as sure a road to inequality and oppression as any other, unless these parts of human nature can be overcome.
Substitute "people" for "the Right" and you've got a valid statement there. Assuming that "the other side" is the only one who refuses to see the facts is a pretty universal human trait.
Those on the left/liberal leaning side are no better at processing data objectively than anyone else. We're all frickin' morons who don't want to listen. End result is that nobody on the entire planet has a fucking clue what is really happening. Ever.
Venezuela Embraces Linux and Open Source Software, but Faces Challenges
By: Cleto A. Sojo - Venezuelanalysis.com
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1
Venezuela's Public Administration to Use Open Source Software
By: Gregory Wilpert - Venezuelanalysis.com
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1
Yet.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
would be to consider making some friends.
Machiavelli said "it is better to be feared than to be loved", which was OK for medieval Florence, but Europe has moved beyond that nowadays.
Now it is a good idea to aim for respect and interdependence.
communists believe that all property and means of production (companies) should be put into the hands of the government. marx specifically said this would have to be done using "despotic" means. people do not like it when their property is stolen. and when all that power and wealth is put into the hands of the state, the few people who run the government are going to abuse it. the more extreme your brand of socialism, the more likely you will get a blood bath. stalinists were pretty extreme.
capitalism spreads the wealth and power around to the people instead of concentrating it in one person or organization.
Much less, actually. Think of the 20th century, for example. Lenin? Mao? Pol Pot? Hitler? Stalin? All Socialists.
Niether Pol Pot nor Hitler qualify as socialists. And the U.S. helped put Pol Pot in power. You are being very selective in your history.
How come, whenever it is tried in any but the most mild forms, it results in the worst extremes of unlevelness and extreme stratification between rich and poor?
I don't know that socialism has ever been tried on a large scale. It is certainly applied in many European countries to great effect, and within the U.S. to alleviate much of worst poverty. There have been a number of oligarchies that claimed to be strictly socialist, but none of them provided for citizens to have equal power in the government. In any case look to the U.S. as a good example of extreme stratification of money and power. With money, you can do basically anything, without it you are legally helpless. Upward mobility is worse than the vast majority of the world and of the top 1% income only about 400 of them last year were not born into the top 1%. Of course due to the poor mathematics scores and unrealistic expectations 35% of people asked in a survey thought that they were in the top 1%.
when it is applied, it ends up that the wealth is distributed all to the rulers, who pay lip service to the idea of giving it to others.
And when was their a U.S. president that was not one of the wealthy elite? I think Grant was the last one. In any case, I believe we already covered the logical fallacy of claiming historical evidence as the proof of future implementations.
Ah, another tired "Bush is Hitler" reference...You are also forgetting that if Bush really did order this, his government would not be punishing those responsible for Abu Ghraib.
I never equated Bush with Hitler, I merely stated three leaders who were elected and have been decried by the world as human rights violators. As far as your comment about Bush and punishment, did he punish them before or after the press published? And why has no one of rank been charged? And why does the FBI have to go to the press a year after they make reports to the administration in order for something to be done? And why is the commander of both locations suddenly posted somewhere obscure and unreachable? And why does the leader of the most powerful country in the world claim that the basic rights our forefathers listed for all men, don't apply to some particular ones?
you will be very hard pressed to find a country that is more free. The media is without a doubt the most free and least controlled.
You are delusional if you believe that. I believe Amnesty international lists the U.S.A around number 30 for the least domestic human rights violations. Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland, and Finland are often near the top of the list. And that does not take into account violations the U.S.A. perpetrates in other countries. If you have not been paying attention, the freedom of the press has been officially revoked in the U.S.A. The patriot act gives the federal government the right to issue gag orders to anyone including the media. Historically the press has been censored many times in the U.S.A. Several media outlets have mentioned withholding news within the last year at the request of the U.S. and did you ever notice those little notices at the bottom of Google pages that say results have been removed due to legal injunctions in the U.S.?
Your view of socialism is narrow and dated. Your view of the U.S. is unrealistic. I suppose you think most of the world considers the U.S. to be an evil empire because of all that liberal media huh? Those poor stupid foreigners. The U.S. is certainly not as bad as some other places, but as far as doing evil things in the world, it is pretty near the top of the list right now. Get a clue.
Never mind the fact that the blog you source lists a followup study which refutes the fraud findings.
Well done, indeed.
Free Manning, jail Obama.
The best politician in the world right now.....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Fact: Capitalism will never work. I am mainly making a point here how "Socialism" is not really equitable with communism. Many denizens of a country like Sweden, for example, consider themselves members of a socialist state. To US denizens "socialist" is a four letter word. They have heavy employee protection (as many European states do) and an extensive safety net.
...give and take. Any engineer worth his/her salt knows that every implementation comes with advantages and disadvantages that have to be evaluated with some value system.
Oh, sure, many people consider their economies "capitalist" on these boards, but how capitalist are they really? Capitalism generally derives its benefits from competition and freedom to make private economic decisions, yet we have seen time and time again that in the absence of enforced anti-collusion laws that the powerful will lay down arms to exploit the lower classes with greater ease. You KNOW if it wasn't illegal that businesses would trade in human beings and serfs. It is strange how the extremes suffer markedly similar ailments. Perhaps, as most developed countries have discovered, that a more balanced approach seems to be best. The US prefers a slightly more free market and enjoys growth and economic power as a result, but look at how rich our rich are...and how poor our poor are. The Europeans have a more stagnant economy, but enjoy a higher quality of life on average in many countries.
I don't know which article you read, baquiano, but there was no mention of open source software. Is Venezuela looking for freedom or looking for a development process? I hope they want freedom. Too many people, I think, are afraid to use the term "free software" because it is seen as being assosiated with fanatics, or RMS. Don't be afraid. And don't be tricked into thinking that free software and open source software refer to the same thing.
>Click here [washingtonpost.com] to see the drift towards totalitarianism in Venezuela documented.
That's like the 10000000th time I've seen that link posted here. Let me make something clear.
An editorial is not a reliable source. Everyone is always condemning 'bias' in this outlet or that outlet. An editorial is a newspaper article that is openly biased. Please do not cite an editorial to support your political assertions. I know, it looks good to have [washingtonpost.com] at the end of your statement, but please, stick to facts if you want to "document" anything.
Niether Pol Pot nor Hitler qualify as socialists. And the U.S. helped put Pol Pot in power. You are being very selective in your history.
Most people lost the ability to think about the real meaning of the word "socialism". Hitler was socialist (one hint: he was constanly interfering in the economy).
the "piece of journalism" you link to is a unatributed editorial from the columbian civil war "special report" section of the washington post (registration required AND a @#^@ pop-up ad which in itself qualifies them as satans brood) if all i read was unatributed editorials from european papers i might believe that the united states was a facist dominionist christian theocracy with NBC WMD on a global crusade against humanity and all kinds of weird sh*t :P
What kind of failure in reasoning does it take to make an assertion like "Socialism will never work" and try to claim it as a fact? Have you ever read anything about logic or reasoning? A prediction cannot, by definition, be a fact. Citing previous examples of something not working is not a valid argument as to why something cannot work in the future.
;)
That's called empiric reasoning. Your meaning of logic is mostly mathematical, mechanical. Real-World logic is quite different.
I stated my opinion about socialism, and it's based on the bad experiences from the past.
In 1200 AD someone may have said, "humans will never fly. people have tried for years to invent flying machines and all failed. Most of them seriously injured themselves. It is a fact that flying machines can never work. "
Maybe he did help humans fly, in his own way. Maybe he showed the fundamental flaws of the machines of his time. I don't know if he did. Maybe he just helped inventors shift their views.
Why don't you stop picking sides
Well, I could just stop picking sides, but I don't like to. Picking no sides is always easier.
or trying to attack others who believe differently than you
Like I said before, some of my arguments were just caricatures (sorry, I don't know if "caricature" is a common word in USA, here in Brazil we use "caricatura" a lot)
and try to look at some of the problems in the world and try to help solve them.
What if I do so? Maybe you don't know me so much
Bickering will get you exactly nowhere.
I know bickering will not get me anywhere
I stated my opinion about socialism, and it's based on the bad experiences from the past.
In future perhaps you should avoid preceding your opinions with the word "Fact." Logic is logic whether applied mathematically or to real world situations. It is about using a reasoned progression based upon measured criteria. Given A and B we can deduce C. Assertions without facts, or without directly related causation are not logical. It seems to me that reasoned discourse and logic should be formally taught everywhere, as I find it lacking most everywhere.
Well, I could just stop picking sides, but I don't like to. Picking no sides is always easier.
I disagree. Picking sides (in terms of right, left, democrat, republican, etc as I used it above) is easy when you just follow the party line. Making your own choices about things, and making an informed decision is much harder than listening to Rush Limbaugh for debating points.
I don't know if "caricature" is a common word in USA
the word 'caricature' is fairly common in American English, although it is usually used in terms of a drawing or a grotesque exaggeration.
I can understand being disenchanted with many of the regimes that have claimed to be socialist, but socialism is such a broad concept that it is practiced to some degree almost everywhere. Oppression and totalitarianism are also present in some degree almost everywhere. Try not to let a bunch of power hungry thugs turn you off on the basic idea of sharing resources and sharing work equitably.
I also like it when someone comes to power in a nation with lots of wealth but enormous poverty and tries to spread some of the wealth to the masses, a healthy, wealthy populous maybe key for moving from backwater to world power.
Play Command HQ online
It'd be nice if you (as in all who this applies to) would stop thinking of Chavez as a socialist in any sense. His populist rethoric is definitely socialist, but it's just that: populist rethoric; bullshit, in layman's terms. Chavez is a totalitarian, militaristic president responsible for numerous violations of basic human rights, multiple cases of murder (both directly and indirectly), widespread political repression, and bringing this country down to shit.
That's, erm, not what socialism is about.
And you completely ignore the last 10 years of history in Venezuela where Chavez himself was the one leading the coup against the President of the time.
The failed 'recall' has been as rumoured to be rigged and fraudulent as the involvement of Bush in the coup you mention. Which of course, nobody can fully prove. So, which conspiracy group should I believe then? yours? others?
You say people hate the right wing so much down there as if you knew exactly what they think (then again, maybe you do). So do you mind explaining exactly what makes you think that people hate the right wing so much? Do you know anyone there? or are you getting the news from an Irish crew video/documentary?
Nothing personal, I am just curious for the sake of discussion....
will work for Karma
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, I guess.
will work for Karma
... but since I am still in christmasy mood, I will oblige.
Those programmers get jobs:
- Customazing the software that is out there: this is not a fantasy, in my company we have modified versions of many utilities like ssh, scsu, rsync and many others.
- Putting all the disjoint parts together: there is a tremendous amount of software out there but very often you need to glue it all together. The cost of paying a few programmers to do so is very often substantially lower than buying a commercial product.
- Education and training: somebody has to teach all the new Linuz zealots.
- Commercial support: many companies are demanding commercial, professional support for different FLOSS products.
- Commercialization of improved software: many examples out there of FLOSS software with value added in the form of improvements, support, dcoumentation, etc.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In the UK the current goverment (Labour for crying out loud, they used to be the left) has outsourced most imporant IT projects to private companies in the last years.
More often than not the projects have been grossly over budget, late or cancelled alltogether due to the private companies' inability to deliver.
Your capitalist fundamentalistic ranting will have no credibility whatosever with any person that bothers to read a serious newspaper.
As usual the answer is somewhere in the middle, sometimes goverments get it spectacularly right, sometimes terribly worng, but private industry is not much better.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... if you can't even look at the fscking code you are paying for?
With Open Source everybody is open to accountability, which I thought was a prerequisite when it comes to projects undertaken by any democratic goverment.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you agree that their oil revenue can be their economic salvation, don't look at Chavez. Chavez only made OPEC stronger since he was elected, that's the reason the US is so pissed off at him. And if the coup had succeeded, you can be sure the American pupet would have increased production and lowered oil prices.
The only ones against Chavez are the wealthy & those that are in the pocket of the US, oh & those they pay, like the oil workers that were paid to strike by their management, because the management wanted to keep the oil dosh going into their pockets rather than the govt's pocket, which owned the oil wells.
What's happening in Venezuala is no different to what happened in Iran in the early 50's, when the US overthrew the democratically elected leader, Dr Mossadegh & introduced 25 years of tyrany under the Shah & the CIA trained Savak.
The standard reason people immigrate from so-called poor countries to so-called rich countries
Congratulations, Catbeller, you finally seem to get it! Took you really long, didn't it? That's true, some people just don't value logic and consistency as much as you apparently do. I believe there even was a fancy name for it in the book that Orwell fella wrote... :)
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
In future perhaps you should avoid preceding your opinions with the word "Fact."
Why should I avoid preceding my opinions with the word "fact"? Maybe I should just say "Hey, my opinions are always worthless, so, I will never think I'm right about anything".
Logic is logic whether applied mathematically or to real world situations. It is about using a reasoned progression based upon measured criteria. Given A and B we can deduce C. Assertions without facts, or without directly related causation are not logical. It seems to me that reasoned discourse and logic should be formally taught everywhere, as I find it lacking most everywhere.
You apply the same logic to mathematic and real world situations? That's not good. Mathematically, A and B will always lead you to C. However, outside of theory, "A and B leads do C" is not always right. It depends on the context. It depends on the way you relate A, B and C. It even depends on your own perspective.
I disagree. Picking sides (in terms of right, left, democrat, republican, etc as I used it above) is easy when you just follow the party line. Making your own choices about things, and making an informed decision is much harder than listening to Rush Limbaugh for debating points.
Well, my decisions aren't uninformed just because you disagree with me. People here in Brazil use to take uninformed decisions all the time, and such decisions are almost always something about hating USA and praising Lula. BTW: Who's Rush Limbaugh? Seriously, I don't know.
Oppression and totalitarianism are also present in some degree almost everywhere. Try not to let a bunch of power hungry thugs turn you off on the basic idea of sharing resources and sharing work equitably.
If you share work equitably, some will end up having more than others. Why? Because *people* are not equal. Sharing resources equitably is *unfair*. In every socialist regime, obviously, no one wanted to work hard because there would be no benefit at all. That makes the socialist nations' income brutally drop. And, in real world (not in some leftits fantasy), with no income, people don't live very well at all.
It is like you had a big speech bashing me for saying how good the US government was in the 1960s all prepared. You launched it as soon as I replied. You apparently did not bother to read my reply, in which I spoke of Hoover spying on everyone, and spoke of "persecution" by the government.
"You were saying America doesn't persecute its political dissidents, well it obviously does"
Something else you would not have said if you had read what I had written, when I wrote also of persecution of political dissidents. In fact, I think I used the word "persecute" to describe it before you did!
"I doubt you will see the Chicago Seven today because everyone today is afraid they would be arrested"
"If the same thing happened today they might well be arrested and held indefinitely, on terrorism charges"
Has this happened to Michael Moore? Or to any actual dissident?
At last some disagreement. More than halfway through your mistaken rant, you come to this. Michael Moore, George Soros, and many others dissent all over the media, quite eloquently, with no fear of torture. Perhaps you think that Moore is a wimp compared to the Chicago 7. I don't. He is loud, he is eloquent, and he does not flinch from sticking to GWB.
"You didn't see any real protests at the conventions this year though there is massive rage at the current government, why because everyone is afraid of the current government."
If you didn't see any, your head was in a box on a shelf somewhere. Tens of thousands took to the streets to protest the Republicans in New York. There were also other huge protests all during 2004 (and 2003) at other times to commemorate/condemn certain events. Some of these were of record size. I suspect that more protested the Republicans in 2004 than protested the Democrats back in 1968 (Chicago 7). I could be wrong on this, however.
"The fact that the U.S. is denying people, including American citizens due process and the right to protest"
Have you ever read the 1st Amendement? It includes a right to assemble. This right still applies even to Republicans and Nazis. Many of the protest organizers declared that they want to "shut down" the convention. That is, they wanted to deny the Republicans the right to assemble. The poorly named "free speech" zones and other policies allowed massive protests to take place anyway: protecting both the right to assemble and the right to free speech. The same intolerance for the 1st Amendment also was exhibited by protesters at the WTO in Seattle a few years ago. They crosseed the line when they tried to "shut down" the peaceful assembly of their opponents. I respect your right to say something, but I don't respect your right to shut someone up using violence and intimidation.
What is lacking in some is the idea that "free speech is for me, but not for you". They wanted to say what they wanted to say, but wanted to deny the Republicans the right to assemble and say what they want at their convention. Not only does this toss the 1st Amendment in the gutter, it is outright rude.
Your earlier claim, several parents up, was that dissent is not allowed in America. Do you have any examples of this?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Have you been watching the X Files too much? Some compared the Kennedy adminsitration to Camelot. Well, it is clear it is becoming more like King Arthur in other ways too. Long ago, in post-Roman Britain, there was likely a leader named Arturus or something like that. Over the years, legend accumulated on his story, legend that some think is fact.
The JFK assassination is the same way. A lot of fiction has been added, and more and more people believe a body of legend made from whole cloth.
"Chances are just unavoidably high there were two or three snipers involved"
Actually, there is only evidence of one. The others are part of a growing team of phantoms created from the fevre dreams of those who get the chills when they see the Illimunati Pyramid on the dollar bill. Like the fictional Merlin who was added to the Arthur tale, we have bogeys popping up on grassy knolls. There is no indications of any conspiracy, or involvement by anyone other than Oswald. We already know who was behind it, and have for many years. However, like with Merlin and King Arthur, I guess it is fun to believe, isn't it?
"because the establishment didn't want to know or want us to know."
Obviously, this must be the same "establishment" that murders the inventors who made the 400 MPG carburetor, and has hushed up all the alien craft landing in the western desert...
"What is it inside your head that makes you so desperate to believe everything your government tells you"
I don't believe the government. However, I believe Art Bell even less.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I'm a US citizen (born there) and still carry a US passport even though I live overseas now. I consider myself a socialist (even belonged to the DSA at one point), always have, and back in the day, I was most definitely not pro-Soviet, and I am not sorry the Soviet empire dissolved. Nor am I anti-American now (even though I oppose a lot of the policies and actions of the current American régime). Nor am I especially anti-capitalist. But I am anti-authoritarian, anti-corporatist, and anti-imperialist (which is why I oppose the current the current US Administration).
Yes, the Soviet Empire fell, and that's a good thing. Now it's time for the American Empire to do likewise; this would also be a good thing.
Opposition to the US government != anti-American.
A true patriot respects all nations and the rights of their citizens just as much as he does his own.
So kindly speak for yourself, as you definitely don't speak for me.
Thank you.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Wrong. You're confusing socialism with crony capitalism.
Please don't waste any more of our time talking about socialism until you learn what the term actually means.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Oh please! Don't tell me that you don't know all the populist stuff and media censorship going on in Venezuela? The journalists threatened? His constant use of conspiracy theories to say that he is a hero and such?
If you can't see the similarities between Chavez and Bush, then you're F'ing blind. They look like clones, for Gandhi's sake! Just because he hates the US, doesn't make him a hero. Stalin also hated the US. DOH.
Venezuela isn't composed of states, so your comparison of Venezuela's elections to the US' falls flat. Venezuela's elections were monitored by international observers, and I didn't hear them cry foul when it was over.
Bah. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
Hitler sent all the real Marxists (Socialists/Communists) to concentration camps or had them shot.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.