TiVo vs Microsoft vs HDTV Cable

Thomas Hawk writes "Technology writer Ed Bott is out today with a great comparison piece where he compares the various feature sets of his TiVo, his Microsoft Media Center PC and his current HDTV cable DVR. It seems like all three have various nice features but all three also have negatives that you have to suffer through. A great read and strong comparison piece for anyone interested in DVR technology. Would love to see Ed or someone else expand on this piece and incorporate the current HDTV DirecTV TiVo, Comcast's Foundation box being rolled out in a pilot program in Washington State and MythTV."

Comments

I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[garcia]

Smart offers. If you bail out of watching a recorded show within a few minutes of the end, TiVo asks if you want to delete the recording to free up hard drive space. That's smart; it's assuming that since you're near the end, you've probably watched all you intend to watch. (If you cancel playback in the middle or beginning, though, TiVo doesn't bother you with that offer; it assumes you're not finished with the show yet.)

I don't know if they were talking negatively about the lack of an option to delete if you bail out in the middle of playback or not but, honestly, it's not difficult to delete any recording from the main menu... For most of the shows I watch I have them setup to delete when space is needed. The shows that I absolutely MUST watch get watched or marked later with "do not delete until I say".

I would actually find it relatively annoying if I jumped out of playback in the middle of a show and it asked if I wanted to delete. That's an unnecessary step that I'd have to take.

That's my opinion though, YMMV, perhaps a more detailed configuration of these settings would help TiVo? "Do you want to be prompted to delete if aborting playback before the end?" (something less wordy but you get the idea).

Bottom line? Feature for feature, Windows XP Media Center Edition matches TiVo and even exceeds it in some measures.

Bottom line? You need to have a dedicated machine for the MCE and a TV in/out card plus you need something that's half-decent in speed. TiVo just works and it was cheap (for me). You also need to support Microsoft and personally, as much as I am not terribly happy w/TiVo's recent decisions, I'd prefer to pay them than MSFT.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[_Sharp'r_]

I'm surprised that with a pretty significant market share, the reviewer didn't bother to mention the offerings from DishNetwork.

Generally, the main differences between the Dishnetwork 921/942 HD DVRs and the HD Tivo models is that the Tivo has better auto-recording features for picking stuff you want to set a timer for, while the Dish DVRs are much, much faster to use in terms of the program guide, etc...

What it really comes down to for most people is the exact HD content they can get from cable/Direc/Dish, etc... All the features in the world are useless without something to watch in HD.

I'm to the point where I rarely even look at non-HD channels in the channel guide, let alone want to watch them. On a 100" screen, it's just too painful to watch SD most of the time.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[Chris Kamel]

don't know if they were talking negatively about the lack of an option to delete if you bail out in the middle of playback or not
No they weren't, they were saying it's smart :)

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[Hittman]

Two years ago I wrote a review comparing my Tivo to the Time Warner's Scientific Atlanta DVR. After three weeks I told TW to remove it immediately. I was amazed that anyone could fit that much suck into such a small box.

Looks like things haven't changed much since then.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[Octagon Most]

"Generally, the main differences between the Dishnetwork 921/942 HD DVRs and the HD Tivo models is that the Tivo has better auto-recording features for picking stuff you want to set a timer for, while the Dish DVRs are much, much faster to use in terms of the program guide, etc..."

Actually the difference is that Dish Network is a content provider and TiVo isn't. Content providers offer DVRs primarily to have control over your recordings. TiVo would love to allow you to record pay-per-view events and watch them at any time. Dish Network (or insert any other cable or satellite provider offering their own DVR) would love to do the same thing but make you pay each time you watch it. Or simply disallow recording when they feel like it. I am not at all sure that TiVo won't cave in to broadcasters' pressure or simply be forced to, but I am sure that getting a DVR from my cable company to save a few bucks over TiVo's monthly fee is a decision I would regret down the line when I find features disabled for "premium content."

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[Gondola]

"I'm to the point where I rarely even look at non-HD channels in the channel guide, let alone want to watch them. On a 100" screen, it's just too painful to watch SD most of the time."

I can sympathize heartily with this sentiment. I have a 65" HDTV and SD format is just "tolerable", especially with the horrible quality of some of the SD shows on TWC cable. (Sci Fi channel is ugly, and the new Battlestar Galactica is the only show I record in SD.)

I loved my TiVo, but it doesn't do HDTV. Hello, Scientific Atlanta 8000HD (Time Warner cable). It's a poor alternative to the TiVo interface, but it does HD. It's worth suffering through the poor interface for that, and it does HD recordings very well usually. I've already had to replace it once because of a failed hard drive (free, same-day replacement via TWC buttcrack thanks to someone else's cancellation). Plus it has two tuners, which has come in handy at times.

If an HD TiVo (standalone, not satellite) came out (yes I'm aware there was a demo unit, but no official announcement), I would look at it very hard before buying, however. The cost would be high for those 1st gen boxes.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[The Spoonman]

Looks like things haven't changed much since then.

I didn't RTFA, but I can say that if you're talking about the Explorer, I believe, 8100 boxes, they have changed. There's been quite a few firmware updates in recent years that have really made them better. Don't get me wrong, if I hadn't been on a free 4 month beta, I would have gotten rid of mine within the first day or two.

Pretty much most, if not all of the problems with scheduling and stability have gone away. Actually, stability hasn't been an issue since I had to replace the first unit I got about 3 months ago. The new one has been running 24/7 without issues, the first one had to be unplugged at least twice a week. I finally set it up on an X10 switch to have it automatically done in the middle of the night. :)

Okay, I just took a moment to read your review...wow, never had anything close to those kinds of problems with my first DVR. Odd, because I'm pretty sure I got mine in 2002. It's no defense of TW, but I think you just got a really bad unit. I had stuff on my DVR's drive that had been there over a year, never had stuff just mysteriously disappear like that.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[Golias]

If you are going to complain about lack of options, then there's also the hacked X-Box option and the Mac mini option.

Personally, I briefly considered going with a hacked X-Box Media Center, and settled on the mini, which (for me) has huge advantages over both Tivo and the MPC.

Equipment:
Mac mini 1.42 w/802.11g and Bluetooth
1GB after-market RAM
EyeTV 500
Apple Wireless Keyboard
Kensington Wireless Mouse
Keyspan IR Remote
DVI cable
M-Audio USB-TOSLINK digital sound pass-through

Total cost: about $1500

Results: DVD, 100% free HDTV signals with PVR features, both compressed & uncompressed music, World of Warcraft gaming, and web browsing, all on my HDTV screen from a single device.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[wealthychef]

Ah, yes, I note the Keyspan IR Remote. The problem with this solution is that it sometimes misses a channel change. That is, it thinks it has changed the channel but it hasn't. The DVR has no way to know this has happened, so the wrong show gets recorded. Right? This is the main reason I go with an integrated solution. IN my case, I love TiVo's features, so the DirectTivo units are perfect. They never miss a show, and they are good enough in the UI to where I only curse at it once or twice per day.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[BLKMGK]

Really? So DISH enabled the I/O ports to allow for the movies to be pulled off? No? Can it be hacked to do so? Oh... you can with the TIVO! :-P

The best part of the TIVO, especially for Linux geeks, is that it can be expanded and tinkered with easily. Need more space? Not a problem! Want to pull the video off? Doable. Want to play MP3? Doable. Display pics? Doable (but why?).

I'm nto great in Linux but with work and patience I just hacked mine pretty good and continue to do so. HD hacks are out there and while they aren't quite as plentiful as the older boxes the features look pretty good. 4 tuners for instance - WOW! /me wants....

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[settsu]

Display pics? Doable (but why?)

Classic.

For the sake of those of you who nodded in agreement with that question: They're called "Friends." They're these other people who come over--often in groups withOUT LAN party cases in their arms--to socialize with you IN YOUR HOME (not it your garage basement) (!).

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[Golias]

Ah, yes, I note the Keyspan IR Remote. The problem with this solution is that it sometimes misses a channel change. That is, it thinks it has changed the channel but it hasn't. The DVR has no way to know this has happened, so the wrong show gets recorded. Right?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

With EyeTV on the Mac, recording is programmed in advance via web interface. If I'm recording manually, I would be able to see that I failed to change channels, so how could this be a problem?

Also, I've yet to have the Keyspan remote miss a channel change (or any other command) on me. Of course, I don't really use the dinky little controller it comes with, I use the Keyspan's sensor & software, but with the programmable remote which came with my Sony receiver. It puts out a much more powerful signal. Once my universal remote was programmed, the little Keyspan one went into a drawer, where it will probably stay for the forseeable future. That might have something to do with the better results I've enjoyed.

IN my case, I love TiVo's features, so the DirectTivo units are perfect. They never miss a show, and they are good enough in the UI to where I only curse at it once or twice per day.

I don't think I'm interested in a UI that is "good enough" that I "only curse at it once or twice per day." In fact, I would be appalled at something that bad.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[BLKMGK]

I'm actually familiar with the concept however most of my "friends" aren't into sitting around looking at slideshows. We go outside, have dinner out *in public*, and DO things. Perhaps instead of introducing me to the concept of "friends" I've now explained to you the concept of "friends who aren't boring"?

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm to the point where I rarely even look at non-HD channels in the channel guide, let alone want to watch them. On a 100" screen, it's just too painful to watch SD most of the time."

I can sympathize heartily with this sentiment.

Someone who has a 100" HDTV doesn't need sympathy.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[kesuki]

"You need to have a dedicated machine for the MCE and a TV in/out card plus you need something that's half-decent in speed."

It's not a Legit Media Center PC if it's not fast enough and doean't have tv capture and tv output.

Microsoft doesn't _sell_ media center edition unless your hardware meets the requirements for it. Frankly if you're getting a Media Center PC that is below microsoft's own specs (3.6 GHz P4 100GB HD etc etc etc...), 90% sure the Pc has a warezed verion of Media center. 10% possibility it's a small OEM that managed to get an approved model, and then installed media center on PCs it wasn't supposed to, thus violating thier agreement with microsoft, which puts them up shit creek without a padle.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[settsu]

Touchy, touchy.

Since when was having friends over for dinner, conversation, and laughing at photos of them from the past boring?

Perhaps I should explain the concept of "adult friends who don't have A.D.D."?

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[wealthychef]

I've yet to have the Keyspan remote miss a channel change (or any other command) on me.

Are you using this with a cable box? If you don't have a tuner card and are using a cable or satellite box, you have to set up the IR transmitter to change channels for you when you are not home. The IR transmitter does not know when the channel was successfully changed, it just transmits the "change" signal. Sometimes the signal doesn't get successfully received by the cable box. At least, that happened to me occasionally. About 1-5% of the time. Too often. That's why I went with DirectTV's DVR with built-in tuner; it never misses a channel change.

I don't think I'm interested in a UI that is "good enough" that I "only curse at it once or twice per day."

You probably don't have as high standards for a GUI as I, actually, so maybe number of times per day you curse is not a good measurement. :-) The TiVo interface does a pretty good job, but you have to type words using a "ouija board" interface that really sucks for that purpose. Disgusting piece of work. Also, resorting items in the wish lists takes forever. Those are my main gripes with TiVo.

Re:I still prefer to pay TiVo.

[rayv3n]

Obviously the writter lacks amoung other things a healthy unbias attitude. That and the fact he made negative comments about features his own test Tivo didn't even have has a M$ media hangmanship to it.

Back to be unbiased, you should let the reader have all the facts and decide on their own what they think. I can get commentary from Hannity and Colmes instead of the news anytime I like.

By the way for the price you put into a PC running a P4, 512 meg of ram, large hard drive; Oh and lets not forget a decent video capture card with mpeg Encoder hardware, you could have had two series 2 Tivo's.

I own a Mythtv box and a Series 2 myself. The Mythtv box is great but its a hobby and sensitive beast that consumes mass amounts of my time tweaking. My Tivo, well, it just plan works. My Tivo unlike other M$ products doesn't get me phone calls from distant relatives asking what the blue screen means!

Sure what comes out of Redmound does a lot of the same things but then we expect technology mediocrity for M$ rather then innovation. On the other hand the DOJ never stood a chance so why would Tivo?

Yeah, except not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Would love to see Ed or someone else expand on this piece and incorporate the current HDTV DirecTV TiVo, Comcast's Foundation box being rolled out in a pilot program in Washington State and MythTV.

Yeah, except not. Other than everything you said, I agree with you.

An idea...

[NEOtaku17]

Myth TV anyone?

Re:An idea...

[wizbit]

Slightly OT, but that 0.17 release is really chapping my ass. I've had the backend crash repeatedly over the past several days; a few hours of live TV and it just quits. Ditto with FF/rewind in recording playback - it skips like a motherfucker and then freezes waiting for the file stream to catch up (and usually gives up after five seconds or so).

Re:An idea...

[badmammajamma]

If I can't record HD broadcasts with it, then it's worthless IMO. Unfortunately there is no card that will allow me to record HD signals from a cable or satellite box. This means, I have to get the HD DVR box that my cable company provides.

Re:An idea...

[wizbit]

Not necessarily. Myth 0.17 allows the firewire-enabled cable boxes with HD channels to be controlled from the PC (so it can change the channel when you do a channel-up/channel-down or start recording). The video can theoretically go both ways over that firewire connection too, but the way I understand it you'd use an S-Video or composite-out cable to your PVR (and back to the TV) to see the on-screen display on your TV and just use the FW link to change channels automatically.

Now they could still encrypt those channels over the FW-out, but early reports on the mailing list say most providers haven't done that yet.

Re:An idea...

[wizbit]

I'm sorry, apparently I'm on crack today. You don't capture via S-video/Composite because the signal's HD, so that's no help. Video will definitely come down the FW pipe, though; that may be how the devs are doing it. Fun for another day, I suppose...

Re:An idea...

[bnet41]

I like TIVO more. MythTV seems like a ton of work to setup from everyone I have talked to. There needs to be something in between those media center pc's that cost so much, and TIVO. MythTV is a great product, but 2 weeks to get it running correctly is not acceptable to most.

Re:An idea...

[rpdillon]

Just finished setting mine up and it took 9 days, mostly the work was over two days, but I had to order a new motherboard since the old Asus MB wouldn't accept a 160GB hard drive (no support for LBA48 on the Ali chipset, go figure).

Anyway, it's very good so far. Built on top of Gentoo. 0.17 seems stable enough - the front end is a bit flaky, but I'm sure they'll patch it up soon.

The TiVo functionality is excellent but I also NFS all my music down to it from my main box, as well as have support for DVD transcoding and MAME emulation. Combine this with RSS feeds for major news sites, a (sort-of) useful web browser (that I've only used a couple of times) and a weather module, and it actually is very sleek.

Honestly, the hardest part to the setup by far was the lirc (remote), and that was only because I'd never done it before. Now that it's working, my friends who thought I was crazy for building it are drooling over it. It is pretty sweet.

The biggest downside to Myth is the price: you have to build/buy a dedicated box for it, but after that, it's just upgrades every couple of years. No monthly fee, and it supports piping the TV to my desktop and bedroom (on my laptop). Pretty advanced product, IMHO.

Re:An idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

I record HD broadcasts every day. You can, too.

But you'll need to resolve your confusion between broadcasts and cable. They aren't the same.

There are many cards which will record broadcast HD. There are a few that will record cable HD, but only unencrypted channels.

You are at the mercy of cable and satellite providers for premium content. They, and their suppliers, don't want you to record HD unless they have full control over your recordings. The only answer that I can come up with to that problem is to boycott premium content. They think that they're protecting their revenue; maybe you and I can convince them that such strategies are costing them business, not increasing it.

Re:An idea...

[plover]

Unfortunately there is no card that will allow me to record HD signals from a cable or satellite box.

You mean the pcHDTV card doesn't exist? Or do you mean that since they only offer full Linux support (Xine and all Linux drivers are included; they also provide unsupported Windows drivers; but they offer no Mac drivers as of right now) that it's still worthless to you?

By the way, this card (that doesn't exist) does NOT support the Broadcast Flag saying "you can't record this."

Disclaimer: I do not even own one of these cards yet so I can't swear that their functionality meets the specs they promise on the web page.

Re:An idea...

[malfunct]

He means its worthless because it is unable to record digital cable or digital satellite signals. Many people in the country are not within a reasonable distance from an OTA HD broadcast and so can't benefit from these cards.

It would be nice (but won't happen) if DirecTV, DishNetwork, or/and Comcast would release a PC decoder/recorder card to consume thier services.

Re:An idea...

[LilMikey]

I'm experiencing quite the opposite, although I think IVTV are the ones to pat on the back. Since my last update/dist-upgrade which brough new versions of Myth and IVTV I've been solid as a rock. Previous versions didn't play well with the fairly new tuner on my PVR-250.

Re:An idea...

[falser]

I just recently rebuilt my MythTV system (upgraded the box and went to 0.17). Even when you know what you're doing it still takes time. You have to manually configure each and every piece of hardware (video, tvcard, remote, sound) and install a ton of software (sql, myth libs). But even so, it is a worthwhile project and very satisfying once it's running. Google is your friend when you run into problems installing. MythTV really is the only kid in town for a home built PVR system. Mine's been going for a good 12 months solid without more than couple frontend crashes. I hope this new build can at least match that.

Re:An idea...

[falser]

If you're using a software tuner consider getting a WinTV 250. My Mythtv install never ran well before getting one, and now it's solid as a rock.

Re:An idea...

[drsquare]

It looks like a piece of software. Hardly comparable to a proper piece of hardware. First of all you'd need a TV card, and as it's a Linux program, your choice of TV cards is seriously slashed. You have to be very careful. Most Linux-compatible cards don't even say whether they work with Linux or not. Then you have to hope you've got a decent one that isn't choppy. Then you need a dedicated computer to run it, and to find a way to hook it up to the TV unless your household like to crowd around the computer to watch TV. Also watch out for incompatabilities, like a TV card which causes the modem to crash the computer.

I'd rather just buy a box and plug it in.

Re:An idea...

[wizbit]

Nah, it's a PVR 250, and 0.16 ran like a champ. Dunno if it's an IVTV problem (I'm on the latest stable now) or a Myth problem, but I'm gradually concluding the latter.

Re:An idea...

[bnet41]

I think MythTV is a great product once its running, but its clearly not something for even most technical people. MythTV seems like something for the most dedicated of do-it-yourselfers, and thats about it. From what I have seen it is simply an awesome product once its up, but the problem is how much work it is to get it setup. Thats why I like Tivo, you have a low cost of entry due to the monthly fee, but you can pay for a lifetime and have a pretty sweet device. Maybe some commercial interest will come along and get MythTV to where it needs to be.

Re:An idea...

[yabos]

Not trolling here, but your situation is exactly why MythTV isn't more mainstream.

Re:An idea...

[wizbit]

Eh, that's fair. Considering I have well over 50 hours into setting the thing up and getting it sanitized to start up and actually function as a PVR, I'd say that's not "mainstream" by any means. But it's worth mentioning that the last release, while a bit shorter on features, ran extremely well and with verrry few interruptions.

It's a shame, too; they obviously put a lot of work into this update.

Re:An idea...

[yabos]

I actually wish I had the cash to mess with it on a computer myself. My TV provider doesn't even have DVR/PVR service so I can't even get it from them :(

Re:An idea...

[Grishnakh]

My understanding is that the card is fully capable of recording digital cable. Why wouldn't it be?

Now, if you mean "encrypted digital cable", then no, it can't do that, but no one has specified that yet. They just say "cable". But if you want encrypted content of any kind, as another poster above said, you're at the provider's mercy for all equipment. Either boycott encrypted "premium" content, or stop complaining and be happy with your Scientific Atlanta DVR.

Personally, I see no reason to pay a lot of money every month to have less freedom and flexibility, so I don't. There's nothing on any TV channel that I need to see that badly.

Re:An idea...

[RedWizzard]

No problem here, in fact 0.17 seems to have put an end to the occassional frontend crash I was getting when starting to watch a recording.

That skipping in FF/rew sounds like you don't have DMA enabled maybe?

Re:An idea...

[IpalindromeI]

MythTV seems like something for the most dedicated of do-it-yourselfers, and thats about it.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I setup my MythTV box using the unofficial debs for Debian, and it wasn't particularly tough. Took a good Saturday afternoon/evening to do, but most of that was installing Debian first (wiped the hard drive to start fresh). The only tricky part was getting the remote to work, and that was because the version I grabbed from CVS head was buggy. Went back a version and even that worked like a charm.

Re:An idea...

[plover]

it is unable to record digital cable or digital satellite signals

And what led you to believe that? It can record the unencrypted HD cable signals straight up, right from the cable or antenna. If you have an encrypted stream, you'll still need to decode it with your normal HD cable or HD satellite receiver. This card can then record it via its S-Video line-in.

Just in case redigitizing the S-Video isn't good enough, there's Yet Another Standard looming out there, the so-called CableCARD. A CableCARD-ready TV has a legitimate cable decryption unit built into it. You simply plug your cable company's CableCARD (probably just a smart card-like device containing your decryption key) into your TV set, and now your TV is (mostly) cable ready, including premium channels. I can easily imagine a new release of the pcHDTV card being made CableCARD ready.

Re:An idea...

[iowannaski]

As very poor former TiVo user and current Myth user, I can't say that I recommend doling out the cash for a dedicated Myth system, but I have been able to turn my two piece-of-shit machines into a functioning myth system. The backend is an hp 1GHz P3 machine with an el cheapo Pinnacle capture card ($80 at CompUSA in 2002) running FC3. This machine became a linux box a little more than a month ago when my win2k install ate its own registry and I couldn't scrounge up a copy of a wndows OS to reinstall. The frontend is a gateway 400Mhz PII running KnoppMyth that I bpught from a friend for $80 a cuouple years ago. I recently replaced the original 2GB harddrive with a 40 gig scavenged from an unused DirecTivo. Anyhow, the system is great, cheap (for me), and I was able to get it all running an incompetent n00b.

Re:An idea...

[iowannaski]

I can easily imagine a new release of the pcHDTV card being made CableCARD ready.

I think most of us can imagine the hardware we want being available.

How would we know we wanted it otherwise?

Re:An idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

My new TV has a Cable Card in it and it works for shit. At least once a day, I lose all of my digital channels and I have to reset (via menu) the Cable Card to be able to watch the channels I am paying for.

Time Warner customer support is not much help. I called once to report the problems with my Cable Card and they told me to unplug the TV from the wall power. That worked but I don't think I should have to cold boot my TV in the middle of a TV show at least once a day.

Re:An idea...

[tap]

Because OTA signals use 8VSB modulation, while digital cable uses QAM. The PCHD card doesn't have a QAM tuner and can't receive digital cable.

Re:An idea...

[Grishnakh]

Crap... Well, I guess I'll forget about buying that card then.

So how long before NTSC is gone? It sounds like we can all forget about using our MythTV systems when that happens. I guess I'll just have to get rid of my TV and download everything from the Torrents.

Re:An idea...

[plover]

According to the description of the HD-3000, it "Supports all 18 ATSC compliant digital formats". ATSC Standard A/80 is described this way:

ATSC Standard A/80:
Modulation and Coding Requirements for Digital TV (DTV) Applications Over Satellite
17 July 1999, Download PDF File
This document defines a standard for modulation and coding of data delivered over satellite for digital television contribution and distribution applications. The data can be a collection of program material including video, audio, data, multimedia, or other material. It includes the ability to handle multiplexed bit streams in accordance with the MPEG-2 Systems layer, but it is not limited to this format and makes provision for arbitrary types of data as well. QPSK, 8PSK and 16 QAM modulation modes are included, as well as a range of forward error correction techniques.

Re:An idea...

[malfunct]

Did you read the FAQ? I did.

It doesn't record QAM (digital cable at least in most places) or digital satellite.

Re:An idea...

[maiku]

Very true. I spent a month getting my 0.16 box stable and I still run into new quirks on occasion. If I try to start a recording while watching live TV -- frontend crashes. If I leave live TV paused for more than 5 minutes -- frontend crashes.

Apparently the record button bug is a known issue in 0.16, but the developers didn't think it was serious enough to warrant a minor follow-up release. The fix? Skip the RPMs and debs and start running the latest from CVS.

I'm all for the open source ideology and all, but some days...

Re:An idea...

[plover]

Crap, I just did now. Sorry.

Re:An idea...

[tap]

The 18 ATSC formats are 18 different resolutions and framesrates. 1080i, 720p, 480p in several different framerates and a few horizontal resolutions. This is at the MPEG-TS layer, when you have a digital bitstream. Before you get digital bits, you need to demodulate the channel using something like VSB or QAM. OTA signals use VSB, while digital cable systems use QAM. I have both digital cable and HD-3000 card, and the tuner on the HD-3000 card can not de-modulate QAM.

There is a card that can do QAM, but it doesn't have linux support.

Re:An idea...

[Robert The Coward]

Its a myth problem tends to show up more when you are using the mythweb and/or have slave systems. I added a slave and my mythtv went from running 1 week without a problem with .17 to crashing ever 36 hours or so. Major anonyous. I submitted a backtrace from current CVS to see if the problem can be fixed by .18.

Re:An idea...

[badmammajamma]

Thanks, all of it is encrypted for me. And recording via antenna isn't even an option since my t.v. doesn't have an HD tuner card and no, I won't buy one because HD antenna recording is a joke in 99% of the country.

Re:An idea...

[4of12]

Just in case redigitizing the S-Video isn't good enough, there's Yet Another Standard looming out there,

And not to forget these intriguing modded receiver boxes that provide Firewire output from various satellite and cable receivers (that do cost, however)...

Want to create a new internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Free speech lives on.

How Tivo can win...

[radiumhahn]

I honestly believe that if Tivo wants to win they should allow shell access to the box and release development APIs so people can write their own Tivo applications. This will allow third party companies to create and support Tivo solutions and would bring popularity back to the device. If you hack a cable box you get a visit from the FBI. Microsoft will never be open. This is where Tivo can win. Hopefully they wake up and sieze the opportunity.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[joecm]

They are opening up the API to developers:

http://www.tivo.com/4.3.hme.asp

Re:How Tivo can win...

[radiumhahn]

No they are not.

HME applications run on home PCís or remote servers hosted by TiVo. At this time, HME applications cannot control any of the TiVo DVRís scheduling, recording, or video playback capabilities.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[jeffehobbs]

I honestly believe that if Tivo wants to win they should allow shell access to the box and release development APIs so people can write their own Tivo applications

HME Development Challenge

I'm not sure about shell access, I know it was relatively easy on the series 1 Tivos but I'm not sure about the series 2 models...

~jeff

Re:How Tivo can win...

[radiumhahn]

HME is fairly bogus attempt at API... HME applications run on home PCís or remote servers hosted by TiVo. At this time, HME applications cannot control any of the TiVo DVRís scheduling, recording, or video playback capabilities.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[riptide_dot]

I honestly believe that if Tivo wants to win they should allow shell access to the box and release development APIs so people can write their own Tivo applications.

I couldn't agree more. To add to that idea, one of the main reasons that I "hacked" my DirecTivo was because I needed to implement features in it that weren't at all available in the OOTB unit (specifically the network interface and a webserver).

Here's a pretty specific example of why it was good for me to be able to modify this device: I have an entertainment center with doors on it that are completely opaque (meaning that if the doors are closed I can't get IR to the components behind them). So, instead of modifying the layout of my media center, I wrote a script that will allow me to change the channel on the Tivo (and actually do just about everything the remote can do) using a web interface on my computer (which has its IR receiver extended into the outside of the entertainment center). The computer's remote and accompanying software can then translate its commands into web scripts that are then in turn fed directly to my hacked Tivo via its webserver. There is no way I could have done any of this on an OOTB unit.

I suppose I could have done this with a third-party IR repeater, but this was more fun, and more importantly, FREE.

I suggest that Tivo, MS, and other DVR manufacturers could still market their "closed" versions for the masses of people who are willing to sacrifice feature sets for simplicity, but they should also offer more powerful units to those that want to purchase them, maybe provided that the "power" units have less of a support expectation...

Re:How Tivo can win...

[bryce1012]

And ten years ago TiVo didn't exist.

It's expected that as HME progresses the DVR capabilities will be added in. Not right now, today - but soon.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[radiumhahn]

Yes, but the slow release of capability is the result of corporate choices and not the speed of technology and innovation. The API is crippled because of lack of access. If access was available I am sure the missing features would have been the first ones developed.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm they aren't going to win by opening open their boxes. It will the hearts of geeks, but not the hearts of the masses. They will only win if they can get a bigger install base and that means teaming up with cable companies or phone companies. But its all futile anyway, ondemand(streaming) is going to kill the DVR market and will take out the satellite guys as well. Next war for tv is going to be phone company vs cable. Fighting for the set top box will be won by the cheapest solution which will have good chance of being linux.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[pilgrim23]

I hook my iBook to the TV, then put on VLC. I then play a 700mb mp4 usually in DivX codec of the movie I want. Small enough to fit on a CD (as a avi), works well in terms of viewing. and, for a lot less then my iBook cost, a mini can do the same. Ad a Airport Extreme card and I could now streme the movie from the main machine in the study....All with more ease then the PC equivelant could ever achieve. Oh, and the sound feeds right into the home theater system. There is of course always the option of burning back to DVD or VDC if needed, but why waste the plastic?

Re:How Tivo can win...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow you should be product development! Lets make PVR model that caters to 0.001% of the market.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[angle_slam]

The VAST majority of the public will never write their own Tivo application. I think it's safe to bet that most would never even download other applications. Tivo is going to die because cable companies and even DirecTv is building PVRs into their set-top box. Doesn't matter is Tivo is "better" if Comcast includes a PVR in their set top box.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[Anonymous Coward]

and more importantly, FREE.

Time = Money

Re:How Tivo can win...

[BLKMGK]

It's not hard. www.dealdatabase.org has forums for this and yeah that's not a link - deal. You can even put the nifty 4.x software onto DTVs and get all of the HMO stuff :-) If I can do it than any Linux geek can!

Re:How Tivo can win...

[Che Guevarra]

Their marketing departments will laugh at this idea wondering why they should develop a new product for a market segment of about 2000 people world wide.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[iowannaski]

While I agree with the general sentiment, take a look at the UID's of self and parent. Geeks are not that rare.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[Anonymous Coward]

How someone who doesn't read their own links gets a +5 Informative for incorrect info is beyond me. Perhaps there's a virus in the moderation system and illiteracy is being passed on.

The first bullet point at http://www.tivo.com/4.3.hme.asp reads:
HME applications run on home PC's or remote servers hosted by TiVo. At this time, HME applications cannot control any of the TiVo DVR's scheduling, recording, or video playback capabilities.

Re:How Tivo can win...

[riptide_dot]

Their marketing departments will laugh at this idea wondering why they should develop a new product for a market segment of about 2000 people world wide.

Why would they have to develop a new product? All they would be doing is providing units with a kernel that does not automatically check the /var/.. directories for unknown content and delete it upon startup. I'd be willing to bet they already have those types of Tivos in their QC offices for product development and testing. There wouldn't be much marketing involved, perhaps a quiet announcement that they have an "unlocked" unit available for purchase as well...

I'd also be willing to bet that there are a lot more than 2000 people with interest in this kind of thing, and those numbers could possibly grow when other people find out about the availability of such a product.

Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[Cutting_Crew]

As per one of the comments at home -- you already have all you need with cable(digital cable, 5.0 mbps connections(they just increased it from 4.0)), why not just fork up 4.99 for the DVR and be done with it. seems to be the easiest and overall the best deal atleast for those that already have cable set up.

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[Anonymous Coward]

Who are you talking to and whos that they person?

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[jbarket]

I agree completely.

A couple of years ago, I decided to take a machine my office that I wasn't using, throw an All-in-Wonder card in it, and turn it into an HTPC. Now, I've realized there's a considerably less expensive way to cover all of the bases.

For watching "legally obtained" materials (and for playing ROMs, which my HTPC also was capable of), I have a moded Xbox. I picked it up about a year and a half ago for less than a hundred bucks on eBay and modding it was simple. With the HDTV set of AV cables, it provides everything a nice video and soundcard setup can.

And, for my actual timestretching and recording, I got Comcast's DVR service. I wish there was a way to pull recorded shows off of it without the current HDTV monitor firewire trick, but that aside, it's wonderful.

This way, which also has the added benefit of actually playing Xbox games, I spent a total of about $220 plus 5$/mon. Just purchasing a decent videocard w/ TV tuner and a sound card with similar outputs will run you a similar cost.

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[Cutting_Crew]

i have comcast btw -- i didnt mention that in my first post. yeah the firewire switch for the DVR gets to be a pain but you can live with it -- really how can TiVo stay afloat? isnt one of the main themes and arguments here on Slashdot about coming up with something unique? sorry folks TiVo is really not that unique as this whole story shows. and about the decent videocard -- try out a GeForce 6800 Ultra SLI -- heh..

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[not-real-sure]

Personally I refuse to keep paying the cable company for substandard customer service and price raises that occur yearly. I have had my DirecTV service and Tivo for 2 years and i am getting my first price increase. Which by the way is less then 2 bucks. With Comcast my price was getting raised every 9 months or so in my area. Follow me once shame on me. Fool me twice shame on you Comcast.. Shame on you....

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[cens0r]

What were you doing, changing your programming package every 9 months? I've had the same programming package for 3+ years and one move. It isn't even offered anymore. And I pay the same price now as I did then. The only difference was my cable modem was 1/2 price for the first 6 months or something like that.

Now if I ever changed my package (and I considered it) I would have to pay the new rate for the new packages they have, but they haven't increased anything on me.

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[not-real-sure]

Here in the chicagoland area the prices have been on a steady rise for years.. when i first got digital cable from AT&T I was paying 75 bucks amonth for there platnium package or what ever it was named. It was the top package with all the channels minus pay per view. When i left comcast I was paying about 110 a month for the same same service. With DirecTV I payed 96 for 2 years and they just upped it to 98.53 with 3 extra boxes and FREE tivo service for having there top of the line plan.

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[cens0r]

I've been with comcast for 3+ years (it was at&t before) and they've never increased my price. Maybe it's simply because I'm on a plan that doesn't exist anymore.

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[Cutting_Crew]

for me with Comcast -- i dont have all the movie channels, i have the basic digital cable and mine in the past 6 years has gone up from $45 to about $52, a $7 a month difference with HD technology and DVR and extra channels...so i'd say that is good. the internet service has gone up from 39.99 to 42.99, that is 6 years later and my connection is up from 2.0 mbps to 5.0 mbps(it was raised from 4.0 this past month). i would say thats a fair shake. i cannot relate to anyone who has had the platium ultra etc etc packages b/c i have always just carried the digital basic, which includes the music channels, Encore/Starz, etc etc. ive never had a problem with them for customer service, obviously all customers with every company is not going to be satisfied all the time.

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[iowannaski]

Quick, how much is your monthly bill (inc. taxes and whatnot, to the penny)? I hope you know this exact number, because I think you are full of shit. Cable companies increase rates, wit hor without your assent. It's what they do,

Re:Cable Stays in my home, what about yours??

[cens0r]

it's just about $160/month... that includes the cable modem and the DVR charge though. Sometimes it's a little more, sometimes less depending on the amount of pay per view.

I use KnoppMyth

[drewzhrodague]

I use the Knoppix MythTV distro.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[superpulpsicle]

This is great. Except there is no recommendation for what graphics card to use in conjunction with your TV tuner.

WHAT PC graphics nowadays doesn't overheat in a tight beige box if left on 24x7?

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[cesman]

Well if you search the forum, you'll see that I recommend an nvidia geforce 440 or above. I've used one in each of my boxens without issue for well over a year.

Regards,

cesman

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[IpalindromeI]

Get an old geForce2 and a VGA-to-video converter. I found a converter for $25-30 and it converts to both Component and S-Video.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[Gilgaron]

Where did you find a VGA to Video converter for that price? The ones I've seen around are around $199, and its been holding me back from putting a HTPC together...

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[IpalindromeI]

Searching Google's Froogle for usb vga converter returns the one I bought as the first hit: the "GrandTec Gez-1000 PC-To-Video Cable," for around $35. Pricegrabber also lists one that's similar, but without the attached cords, for around $45.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, prices have really fallen since the last time I looked!
What's the picture quality like? And what kind of controls are there (overscan, position)?

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[Gilgaron]

That is S-Video and Composite, but not Component output. Thanks for the link, though; I'll keep it in mind if I give up on looking for inexpensive way to get component to the TV.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[IpalindromeI]

You're right, I said component when I meant composite. Sorry for the confusion.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[IpalindromeI]

I think the quality is just fine, but I'm not a videophile or anything. In my case, the quality of the picture has more to do with the bitrate I record at than the converter.

As for controls for overscan and position, the converter itself doesn't do anything like that, it just converts the signal to be compatible and that's it (which is a reason why it's so cheap). But using xvidtune, I was able to create a modeline for X that gives me whatever overscan and position I want. So it's still possible for Myth, but I'm not sure how well it would work for other purposes.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[Anonymous Coward]

Good idea about xvidtune! I forgot that you're using the VGA out, not TV out. I wonder if you can do something similar under Windows.

The picture of the converter looked like it had some button in the middle and the web page mentioned overscan, so I was curious what the button did.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, what size TV are you using?

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[IpalindromeI]

I think the button is to clear/reset the signal conversion somehow, but it's never seemed to actually do anything when I've pushed it.

Re:I use KnoppMyth

[IpalindromeI]

27"

"introducing-the-challangers dept."?

[josh2112]

From the somabody-neads-to-chack-thair-spalling dept.

I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[iibbmm]

I have owned two Media Center PCs, and currently use two 5504 ReplayTV's as my main PVR units.

The Media Center PCs were of course the most powerfull units, but they had problems. It was a real pain to get everything working with my Toshiba HD set, as it was finicky about resolutions, and getting everything stable was a pain. I ended up selling both of my attempts at Media Pcs, and got a replay tv.

The replay is PERFECT. Everyone in the house can use it without issue, and everything is fluid. There is no need to spend hour after hour customizing and tweaking software to get everything work with something else, no crashes, nothing out of the ordinary.

The key components I miss from the HTPCs are the music playback, web browsing, and gaming on the big screen. However, I have a wireless media streamer that I use for music, and I prefer to play games in my office anyway, so the loss of functionality is minimal. I didn't use my HTPC to play pirated films, as I can't stand the look of divx/xvid at 57".

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[iibbmm]

replying to my own topic sucks, but I forgot something. With my ReplayTV, I can access my unit from my PCS at home to watch recordings or even burn to dvd/store on my hard drive. I use my server to store files I've recorded on the replay, so I basically have a 1000 hour unit at a minimal cost when compared to what 1000 hours worth of tivo would cost.

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[LoudMusic]

I have owned two Media Center PCs, and currently use two 5504 ReplayTV's as my main PVR units.

Looks as though you've not personally owned a TiVo box, but have you used one on a semi-regular basis (friend or relative's house)? I'm trying to decide between a TiVo and a ReplayTV. The prices are essentially the same at this point and people who have owned either one always tell me the other guy sucks, but inveriably have never used it. Kind of like the Mac and Windows battle (:

So how about it? Have you used a TiVo? What made you buy ReplayTV?

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[Anonymous Coward]

You drive a BMW, I bet.

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[mythosaz]

I currently run MCE2005. I run both a Hauppauge PVR 500 (dual-tuner) that captures non-pay cable, and an ATI (pre-broadcast-flag) HD Wonder connected to an antenna on the roof. Although it reaches the speed limit on my drive, I can capture a 1080i or 720p HD broadcast and two "best" resolution analog-cable shows at the same time.

I have no trouble outputting from MCE2005 at 720x480 to my tube TV for DVDs and cable, and likewise the 720p and 1080i recordings look nice scaled down as well.

I *also* have no problem viewing the 1080i and 720p (and 480) broadcasts on my SyncMaster 210T.

Microsoft now has a legal XBox Media Center program that lets you use an XBox as a MCE repeater, correctly supporting MSDVR files, as well as all of your other stored video/audio -- and the XBox Media Center (hack) project is starting to support them now as well.

MCE with XBox repeaters is pretty sharp. [Admittedly Myth and the like is very nice too in a free solution, but I enjoy the MCE interface.]

MCE2005 is a vast improvement over the previous build.

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[iibbmm]

I've used Tivo boxes and Direct Tivo boxes.

I chose a replay setup because it supports broadband connections out of the box, whereas tivo requires an adapter (I have no land line). Also, Replay features component inputs, has the ability to transfer files to any pc in the house without any extra purchases, and just plain offers more features for the same price.

The home networking options were a big point of sale for me.

You might want to look for a used 5040 model on ebay, perhaps even one with an unlimited subscription already applied to it. These models are the same as the new 5504 models, but they support commercial skip, and allow you to use poopli, a program that allows other replayTV owners to send you programs that you request, and visa versa. This is great for when you forget to record a program, or hear about something that you didn't know about.

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[iibbmm]

I was using a Radeon 8500 all in wonder w/ dvi output to my Toshiba HDTV (rear projection) via the ati component dongle. I would have used straigh DVI, but my Toshiba does NOT accept a dvi signal from a computer.

I did eventually get it to work but always had a bit of overscan. In the end, it simply wasn't worth the hassle, and I needed the entertainment center space for other gizmos. I sold both of the HTPC's I built at a profit on ebay, at least.

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[nontrivial]

Hell yes, I love my ReplayTV. I have played with a Tivo, and I ended up buying a ReplayTV. The ReplayTV is not as flexible as the Tivo, but it is much easier to use. Plus, it seems all the addon software is easier to use to. I currently offload some content automatically every night to my desktop computer, sort through it on the desktop, and then view any content from any computer or ReplayTV in my house. All this with no hacking or tweaking at all, just installing one program on the computers. The picture slideshows are nice, but some sort of music playing would be nice.

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[iibbmm]

Nope. Mazda Protege5, Chrystler 300M, and a Ford Crown Victoria with a blown transmission!

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[Anonymous Coward]

Go with Replay. They're a big name that's sure to be around for a long time. I bet they have some really neat things in the pike!

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[BLKMGK]

I owned a ReplayTV, loved that it could be networked so easily - I never even cracked the case! But then I noticed that I couldn't record two things at once - single tuner sucked. Then I noted that I was suffering a double encoding loss with my SAT box - that sucked too. No Season Pass but yeah I could record a static time slot - bleah!

I now have a DirecTivo. Done right video transfer isn't too bad. Dual tuners. No double encoding. Support... Yeah, I don't miss my ReplayTV and am enjoying my DIRECTIVO

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[LoudMusic]

I owned a ReplayTV, loved that it could be networked so easily - I never even cracked the case! But then I noticed that I couldn't record two things at once - single tuner sucked. Then I noted that I was suffering a double encoding loss with my SAT box - that sucked too. No Season Pass but yeah I could record a static time slot - bleah!

I now have a DirecTivo. Done right video transfer isn't too bad. Dual tuners. No double encoding. Support... Yeah, I don't miss my ReplayTV and am enjoying my DIRECTIVO

Ah, dual tuners is a definite bonus. But that's only on the DirectTV satalite system, right? Which I guess isn't that big of a deal since everything is on satalite now.

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[BLKMGK]

Ya', by being on SAT I'm not missing out on anything. My cable company is a collection of morons and I REALLY didn't want to give them my cash. At one point I finally couldn't stand it and dumped them. Reluctantly I now have them for my 'net service but supposedly fiber to the curb is coming - I'll dump them so fast their head's will spin.

I've had SAT now for about 7 years I think. First DISH which was great if you want to SUBSCRIBE to a p0rn channel but their PVR SUCKED. So, I switched to DTV just for the TIVO. I haven't looked back since and am quite happy now :-) I can live without p0rn and the pic is crystal clear. I'm still interested in MythTV mind you but until I can get SAT on it like I can my TIVO it's not going to be more than a novelty for me...

Re:I prefer my ReplayTV to my old Media Center PCs

[tf23]

The replay is PERFECT

I'll second that. We picked ours up for $99 direct from them last summer. Everyone in the family easily uses it. It's got ethernet (I wish GB) that I can suck shows off of easily to my Powerbook.

I can also load it w/ photos from the Digital Rebel 300D so everyone can view them easily in the family room off the tv set.

I wish it had multiple tuners, and a bigger hd. But it has commercial skip which kicks ass.

Can you really FFWD commercials?

[BestNicksRTaken]

I've always heard that TiVo can fast forward through adverts, but I don't see how - unless you pre-record everything.

My Dish PVR allows you to pause/rewind etc; put surely FFWD'ing would require you to travel through time to something that hasn't been broadcast yet?

Re:Can you really FFWD commercials?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I've always heard that TiVo can fast forward through adverts, but I don't see how - unless you pre-record everything.

That is pretty much what you do. I don't have a Tivo. I use another PVR. I don't have time to watch the shows I schedule it to record, let alone something else that is on. If I do, however, I just tune in 10-20 minutes after the show starts and watch it from the buffer. I start at the beginning, skip all the commercials, and it ends the same time as it normally would.

Re:Can you really FFWD commercials?

[echocharlie]

If you're watching live TV, you can't. But typically if I want to watch live TV, I'll pause it during a commercial, switch to something else on the Tivo's HDD for a few minutes, then resume the live program and fast forward the commercial. At that point I'm no longer watching live TV, but I've avoided being brainwashed by the commercials in real time. :)

Re:Can you really FFWD commercials?

[Ron Harwood]

You either have to be watching something already recorded - or start watching something a few minutes after it's already started (rewind to the start of show... and ffwd through commercials)...

Re:Can you really FFWD commercials?

[chris234]

Since I've had PVRs (DishPlayer and Dish 721 in my case), I almost never watch shows "live". Much nicer to watch things when I want to, instead of when broadcast.

Re:Can you really FFWD commercials?

[curran]

First - while watching regular TV hit" SELECT-PLAY-SELECT-3-0-Select
This turns on the 30 second skip feature. You'll have to do it again if you lose power to the box. Now the icon that looks like this ->| is a 30 second skip.

Secondly, who watches TV in realtime on a Tivo? You almost always watch something that is already saved, or if your watching CNN in the morning you let it start while you go brush your teeth, coem back and rewind a few minutes then skip the annoying Geico and DiTech commercials.

I never use the FFWD button - 30 second skip!

Re:Can you really FFWD commercials?

[DeeFresh]

In Michael Lewis' book NEXT, he has a section discussing the development of Tivo. In the prototype model, there was a button that allowed you to skip over all commercials. Apparently to gain more support from the major tv networks, they dropped this feature from Tivo before they began selling it.

Re:Can you really FFWD commercials?

[Anonymous Coward]

When watching 'live' TV via Tivo we are usually a little behind and then catch up to 'real-time' during commercials. It is a running joke that we try to fast forward through commercials when we are caught up to real time and can't. It really really sucks to have to sit through commercials .

Re:HDTV lovers unite

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhhh...how do you know that I am not garcia? how do you know that I am not sucking it now?

Re:HDTV lovers unite

[Anonymous Coward]

No... more like garcia owns at sucking you.

Grammar

[northcat]

Would love to see Ed or someone else expand...

It's "I would love to see...".

Re:Grammar

[Anonymous Coward]

an english grammar parser would not complain. the 'I' is implicit.

Re:Grammar

[northcat]

I'm a troll for pointing out a grammatical mistake?

Re:Grammar

[Anonymous Coward]

Cause no one gives a fuck

Re:Grammar

[Anonymous Coward]

Then the parser is incorrect. The "I" can never be implied. Anytime a subject is implied, it is always and only "You".

OT- Is there Video surveillance SW for Linux?

[denis-The-menace]

I know technically I could use MythTV and hack away but I got better things to do.
What do you suggests?

Re:OT- Is there Video surveillance SW for Linux?

[Pygmy Marmoset]

Zoneminder is great, it even has a live CD so you can find out how your hardware will work without having to find a drive to install it on.

I've been using it for about a year and am very happy with it.

Re:OT- Is there Video surveillance SW for Linux?

[ColaMan]

I used to use a linux program called "motion" at a lab I worked at - it could do all the usual features - record only when a scene changed by a certain amount, time-lapse, ignore certain areas etc. It converted them to a series of movies for each "incident" recorded, plus a daily time-lapse one.

Tivo vs comcast

[FerretFrottage]

I have a standalone tivo with tivo2go software and it is pretty neat. I really like the tivo interface, season passes....all works well. As I moved and dropped directv, I added comcast cable since they are also my ISP. I got a promotion for htdv and their new Motorola 6412 DVR. That box does record HD and supports dual recording via single coax cable connection. But the user interface and other tivo like features are not near as nice, plus the box seems to freeze up every so often (even when not recording). The thing that makes me appreciate my tivo is that I haven't seen tivo prevent me from recording or fast forwarding through a show. There are reports that comcast is doing just that, although I have not experienced it for myself.

Re:Tivo vs comcast

[tgd]

I suspect those reports are inaccurate. I've watched both shows in question, both time delayed and had no problems fast forwarding in them.

I suspect someone ran into one of the "UI-freezing" issues, and it coincidentally happened during a commercial and they got whipped up about it. There are definitely times the UI becomes unresponsive, and obviously you're more likely to notice it when its a commercial than during the five minutes you're just watching the TV.

The freezing problem is annoying, if you want to reduce the chances of it happening, set the tuner you're not using to a digital channel instead of an analog channel.

Since I've started doing that, I haven't had my box freeze except for the 10-20 second UI freezes periodically.

Freezes or not, its still better than my Tivo. At least I can watch HD programming on it.

Re:Tivo vs comcast

[FerretFrottage]

thanks for the tuner advice--I'll give it a try

Re:Tivo vs comcast

[squatex]

"But the user interface and other tivo like features are not near as nice, plus the box seems to freeze up every so often (even when not recording)."

After calling them about a dozen times, Comcast finally got off there duff and fixed this on my box. I havent had a freeze in more than 2 weeks. Many users have reported upgrading to the x.15 firmware solved the problem for them. Comcast did leave x.12 on mine but apparantly patched it with a fix. My suggestion is to call them until they fix it.
For more info see this thread: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12127952~mo de=flat~start=80

Re:Tivo vs comcast

[Anonymous Coward]

I had used a directivo quite a bit. Since then i've tried 2 Dish DVRs and a time warner. the tivo has been a FAR superior product. the UI's aren't nearly as friendly as tivo and i've had freezing up problems with all of my non-tivos as well.

Re:Tivo vs comcast

[DragonPup]

plus the box seems to freeze up every so often (even when not recording)

Known issue. I think in the New England Market, I think a firmware upgrade already has gone out to fix this.

Re:Tivo vs comcast

[DragonPup]

Wow, that sounded redundant. :p

Motorola 6xxx HDDVR is best

[hackstraw]

I've got one of these, and it does everything that the article mentions lacking in the products he used. I'm not sure if it goes weeks into the future with the guide, I've never tried. Oh, one thing it does not have is 30sec skip, but it has 3 or 4 levels of fast forward, and it accounts for human reaction time when hitting play. I always get exactly to the end of a commercial break, sometimes I get the last 5 or 10 secs of the commercial.

It has all of the Season Pass features of a Tivo, and all in all its a great device, plus its HD. Oh, it also has two tuners so I can watch and record a show at the same time. The equivalent media PC would cost much more than I pay for this device, and not be as good. A Tivo is close, but no HD. I was pleasantly surprised with this device.

Re:Motorola 6xxx HDDVR is best

[garrobon]

Not sure it's the same, but I have a Motorola BMC9012 (Moxi from Digeo - http://www.digeo.com) and it is pretty nice. I just went back to cable from sattelite service where I had a DISH 508 PVR. The interface on the Moxi is much better (season pass type recording features, USB port for connecting a digital camera, games, etc). The Moxi also records high def.

Re:Motorola 6xxx HDDVR is best

[IcePop456]

I have the single tuner Motorola HD DVR and it is horrible. I get constant glitches unless it is either a recording or I have paused it for 5 sec and playing back it like a delayed live. The box does not have a progress bar during play back. If you decide to start watching a program that had to turn itself on to do the scheduled recording, the box will shut off when the show ends and it will NOT save the spot you were watching. The 4 levels of fastforward are NOT nearly as fast as other boxes. I did get a firmware update (I believe) becuase it is faster now.

Mine is a single tuner so I have a HTPC with firewire connected to a second Motorola HDTV box (no DVR feature). This allows me to record two things at once. Although they can do it with MythTV, I use WinXP and cannot change channels with it just yet.

The Guide menu shows only 1 hours worth. I would say about 40-50% of the screen is full of ads.

Repeating recordings are completely deleted if you decide not to record one week's edition of a show. How annoying is that?

The software cannot figure out the show playing during a time slot. There's no "record only this show during this time slot" So if the network plays something else from 8-11 and you have a recording from 9-10, you get 1 hour of crap. It also cannot find the show on other channels.

Those listed above (except the single tunner) are all features I think a minimum PVR/DVR should have. I hate the box and I hate my cable company for picking it (not that they really had a choice).

That isn't an issue

[hsmith]

The average (99%) of users have no reason to need that. It is just icing on the cake for dorks who want to play with it. Granted it may be fun to do, but realistically, it can't be a big selling point.

Re:That isn't an issue

[radiumhahn]

%99.9999999 of web site visitors don't need shell access and web development APIs either... are those just for dorks who want to play star trek to?

"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[GillBates0]

A great read and strong comparison piece for anyone interested in DVR technology. Would love to see Ed or someone else expand on this piece and incorporate the current HDTV DirecTV TiVo, Comcast's Foundation box being rolled out in a pilot program in Washington State and MythTV.

I think "DVR Technology" is overrated...atleast to anyone who has a TV Tuner Card in the PC and a decent set of drivers and TV Tuner software (Hauppauge's WinTV for xawtv/bttv for Linux). I got a basic one for $20.00 and it does the job satisfactorily. If I'd more dough, I could've bought a higher end one for $60.00, with it's own remote control.

I have 180Gb of diskspace at my disposal, the ability to skip, timeshift, record, picture-in-picture, channel scan etc that most TiVo users gloat about, with the performance being limited only by my CPU/Graphics/RAM, all of which I'd rather update than buy a new TiVo/DVR device. And to those who hate watching TV on their monitor...that's where an S-Video cable comes in.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Amen.

My old tower is now my media center. I bought an external TV tuner that connects via firewire and has it's own remote control. The UI is not quite as nice as a TiVo, but it has a great many more features. There is no monthly fee, I can archive to DVD or VCD and shows or movies I wish to keep, it has a completely configurable set of controls including skipping ahead and back, adding more space is as easy as sticking another hard drive on it, it can do double duty by acting as my DVD player, mp3 player/server, CD player, video game machine, low-bandwidth web server, and a guest machine for people to browse the web, or check their mail. All of this was out of the box with basically no configuration. I pity the poor bastards stuck with TiVos.

Note, this is in no way an endorsement of MythTV or WinMediaCenter. I have used neither. My system is running on an old Mac with OS X and EyeTV.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[riptide_dot]

I have 180Gb of diskspace at my disposal, the ability to skip, timeshift, record, picture-in-picture, channel scan etc that most TiVo users gloat about, with the performance being limited only by my CPU/Graphics/RAM, all of which I'd rather update than buy a new TiVo/DVR device.

While I agree that having the powerful computer do the DVR functions allows for more flexibility when it comes to upgrades, I also have a computer with tuner cards and all of the related software to do exactly what you're doing (timeshifting, commercial skip, channel scan, etc), but there's a few big problems with its functionality in practice:

1) (the main one) I can't get DirecTV on my computer, only off-the-air broadcasts. That kind of (okay REALLY) limits its functionality.

2) Even though my computer is more powerful that my Tivo (by a factor of like 50), the Tivo is still much, *MUCH* easier to use. There's no way my wife would consider "learning" how to use the computer's DVR abilities, but the Tivo functionality came pretty naturally to her. The Tivo software kicks ass.

3) I spent a WHOLE lot more on my computer than I did for my Tivo. The computer was around $1500 when I bought it and the Tivo was $99.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[jeff4747]

the performance being limited only by my CPU/Graphics/RAM, all of which I'd rather update than buy a new TiVo/DVR device

Yes....much better to buy/build a $800 computer than buy a $99 TiVo.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[iibbmm]

I've owned both, and believe me, the standalone unit is BETTER.

It's better because it's built to be a PVR, and that's all it does. The interface, the software, the hardware, it's all there for one reason, and that's it. My HTPCs were purpose built to be HTPCs and that's it, but it's still a fact that they are computers, run Windows or Linux or MacOS or beOS(heh), and have to be tweaked around to be a good PVR. Sure, it works, but it's not going to be as intuitive as a standalone unit that's had lots of money dumped into R&D.

I hate being the big bad backer of the expensive option, but in this case it's just plain better. I spent 2 years playing with my HTPCs before I realized I could do better. Also, my wife is MUCH happier with the replayTV.. and that makes my life happier.. trust me.

Also, my cellphone and pda make crappy cameras., and my car is not an effective office.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

Logical fallacy. It's assumed that you already own a PC when you get a Tuner, much like it's assumed that you own a TV, when you get a DVR.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but who wants a computer in their living room? for $50 I got a Tivo, put lifetime on it (Now $300) and I have a box that Just Works (tm). No care, no feeding, no hacking, no tying up the computer.

Works with my TV, has a great remote and blends into my entertainment center.

Better still, I left one with my parents and haven't had to give them any technical support for two years! No PC will EVER touch that reliability.

Tivo, it does one thing and does it VERY well.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It's better because it's built to be a PVR, and that's all it does.

As per my previous post, I disagree. I think it is worse because that's all it does. My computer with a tuner gives me options and features a Tivo never will. MP3 storage, easy upgrades, DVD and VCD playing and burning, games, etc. etc. Also, there is no monthly fee. My girlfriend figured out how to record shows, burn DVDs of those shows, watch shows (including fast forward, rewind, skip, pause, etc.), delete shows, search listings, and permanently edit out commercials on recorded shows without ever touching a manual or asking for help. It's not like it is rocket science. There are a few things that are more slick about TiVo's interface, but it is limited to those few features. My setup can do a great deal more, simply and easily. It is running on OS X with a few useful applications in the dock, and that is it. Is it more complex than a Tivo or ReplayTV? Yes. It is also more functional, and easy enough for the average person to figure out in about 5 minutes.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[jeff4747]

Logical fallacy. It's assumed that you already own a PC when you get a Tuner

You can't just drop a tuner in the destkop you're using all the time and get a DVR. If you do, you're not going to be able to use it whenever it happens to be recording, especially if we're talking about HDTV.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[athakur999]

The inability to decode DirecTV on a PC is the big killer for me as well. DirecTivos record the compressed signal from the satellite directly and then decode it when you watch it. Any standalone solution would have to decode the satellite signal via the satellite receiver box then reencode it for storage. You either have to reencode at a reasonable bitrate and deal with more artifacts from transcoding or encode at a really high bitrate to preserve as much of the (already lossily encoded) signal as possible.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm using a MythTV with MythDVD so I can get the most out of my Netflix. With the schedule I work, I cannot always find time to watch the movies with my wife. However, if I rip them to the computer, I can return them back to Netflix, get another movie or TV series that only I will watch, and then come back to the ripped movie later. I usually have 5-10 movies in my Harddrive queue plus the 3 from the mail.

I rarely use the LiveTV functions, since I'm home after 10pm most days. This means I just watch recordings. Daily Show, Sportscenter, recorded show or Movie.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

I've owned both, and believe me, the standalone unit is BETTER.

I've owned a number of them and I think you're wrong.

It's better because it's built to be a PVR, and that's all it does. The interface, the software, the hardware, it's all there for one reason, and that's it.

Getting into an existential debate about the purpose of some computing hardware doesn't prove anything. Arguing that your device that does less and is better for that fact is just plain wrong.

My HTPCs were purpose built to be HTPCs and that's it, but it's still a fact that they are computers, run Windows or Linux or MacOS or beOS(heh), and have to be tweaked around to be a good PVR.

Windows MCE is designed for media, albeit in MS's twisted way. Linux has been customized to fit in everything from PCs to PDAs to vehicles to, I'll be damned... TiVo. My guess is that your experience with HTPC software isn't sufficiently recent. They've really only come into their own in the past year and a half.

Sure, it works, but it's not going to be as intuitive as a standalone unit that's had lots of money dumped into R&D.

It works... it works very well. It works better than a standalone box. If your HTPC wasn't intuitive then you didn't set them up right or completely. SageTV, Snapstream, Myth, Freevo... they're practically idiot-proof. Pick the remote that you like as well. We're using an old Replay remote (from my dead ShowStopper), the change was nearly transparent to my wife. If the argument was that an HTPC is to difficult for you to set up... then maybe that could be true.

Gone are the days of ReplayTV errant dialups, TiVo advertisments and feature promises, broken devices that cost every penny of a $250 lifetime subscription, a $50 remote my dog chewed up. The standalone boxes are losing features while Myth and cousins pile them on with every release.

I hate being the big bad backer of the expensive option, but in this case it's just plain better. I spent 2 years playing with my HTPCs before I realized I could do better. Also, my wife is MUCH happier with the replayTV.. and that makes my life happier.. trust me.

And now, with your TiVo it should be perfectly clear that, by your own admission, you can do better. Your box does DVR. That's fine... that's great. That's far inferior to what an HTPC is capable of.

Also, my cellphone and pda make crappy cameras., and my car is not an effective office.

Ahh, Slashdot analogies... my spoon is not a monitor and my toe is not a jungle gym. My PC IS a PVR and a game player, and a music box, and an email checker, and a web surfer, and a DVD ripper, and an emulator, and a video phone... and it does them all great.

But I suppose I could've sold those old junk spare parts and gotten maybe $40. That would've gone a long... well, some part of the way to another new lifetime TiVo membership. And the 40 minutes worth of TV I watch per day would've been almost as satisfying (I say almost b/c commercial skip works just fine in my PVR). However, I have yet to find a way to put Quicktime on a TiVo and for the life of me I never figured out how to check my mail with my Replay. I guess I'll just hook up a PC in the living room as well...

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[Grishnakh]

Wrong. If you only use a cheapo $20 tuner card, then what you say is true. But anyone serious about building a DVR would use a tuner card with an onboard MPEG2 encoder, such as the Hauppauge PVR-250. You can have several of these in your desktop system recording shows and barely notice, since they barely use the CPU at all. They will consume some of the bandwidth to your HDs however, but at lower bitrates it shouldn't be too noticeable.

This is one of the big advantages of a MythTV setup: you can put the tuner cards on a more powerful computer with lots of disk space (the backend), and use multiple diskless (silent!) frontends, one for each TV, which can access the recordings from the backend over your network.

I don't know if the HD tuner cards have MPEG2 encoding available however.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[iowannaski]

I pity the poor bastards stuck with TiVos.

We're not stranded on a desert island with only 1 box, you know. I have cd player in addition to my TiVo.

Hell, apparently I even have web access, too.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[jeff4747]

But anyone serious about building a DVR would use a tuner card with an onboard MPEG2 encoder, such as the Hauppauge PVR-250

Which Froogle lists at $130-150. Again, more than $99.

since they barely use the CPU at all.

Yes, but there's more to the problem than CPU load, as you get to next.

They will consume some of the bandwidth to your HDs however, but at lower bitrates it shouldn't be too noticeable.

And there's the problem. You're going to have to use up a large amount of your I/O bandwidth in order to save the encoded stream. Yes, you could record at a crappy bitrate, but why on earth would you want to? Unless you're outputting to a fairly small TV, you're going to hate the image quality. I know with my TiVo an a 50" TV, anything less than "best quality" looks like crap.

MythTV could be workable if you happen to have a decently powerful machine just laying around, but you're not going to be able to just drop it onto your desktop.

you can put the tuner cards on a more powerful computer with lots of disk space (the backend), and use multiple diskless (silent!) frontends, one for each TV, which can access the recordings from the backend over your network.

Just like TiVo's Home Media Option (now free). If I had more than 1 TiVo, I could play back something over the network from a remote TiVo onto the local TiVo.

And really...diskless front-ends as the 'cheap' solution? You're talking again about more than $100 per TV, and requiring a fairly hefty back-end system. Such a system is not unworkable, but it's definately not cheap.

Re:"DVR technology" -1 Overrated

[Grishnakh]

Which Froogle lists at $130-150. Again, more than $99.

This is one of those things you don't need to buy new. You can buy these things all day long on ebay for $90-95.

There's also the "blackbird" tuner card, which basically specifies a certain Conexant chipset (cx88 and an MPEG encoder). These cards are newer and cheaper, but the drivers for Linux aren't quite mature yet.

And there's the problem. You're going to have to use up a large amount of your I/O bandwidth in order to save the encoded stream.

One issue here is: how much of the time is the system actually going to be recording a stream (or two) anyway? Maybe you have tons of time to watch the drivel on TV these days, but my system would only be recording a handful of shows per week: Stargate, South Park, and a few other things. It's not like it'll be recording stuff all the time I'm sitting at the system. And for those times it is, I'm just surfing the net most of the time anyway, so it's not like I really need all that I/O bandwidth. If you have to record a large quantity of stuff, you'd probably want to build a dedicated back-end for it.

I know with my TiVo an a 50" TV, anything less than "best quality" looks like crap.

If you can afford a 50" flat-panel TV, the cost of any component of a DVR system should not be a concern to you at all.

And really...diskless front-ends as the 'cheap' solution? You're talking again about more than $100 per TV,

I haven't actually built a mythTV yet (though I got the PVR-250 tuner card since I wanted to make DVDs from some videos), and this is a concern. I was looking at EPIA systems, but those things aren't cheap at all, even without a hard drive. Some people mentioned getting used Xboxes on ebay, but that seems like a pain since you'd have to hack them to run Linux.

Microsoft vs Tivo

[Doc Ruby]

Microsoft owns a big chunk of Comcast.

Re:Microsoft vs Tivo

[Cutting_Crew]

wow and that was in 1997, comcast is now #1, 8 years later as compard to #4. 8 years is like a millenium in technology time. wonder how much that stock is worth now?

Re:Microsoft vs Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't watch .dvr-ms files on any other os besides xp mce thou, not even on the normal win xp..

That's spelled "geeks"

[Doc Ruby]

The 1% of us who are geeks, who create an app against the TiVo API, then share those apps with the other 99%. That's how software is developed, used, and makes platforms popular. Programming isn't for everyone, but programs are.

Re:That's spelled "geeks"

[hsmith]

i didn't say it wouldn't be cool to have, it just wouldn't be a big marketing tool. yeah i'd prob play around with it if i did have a tivo and the ability to do so.

Re:That's spelled "geeks"

[Doc Ruby]

The API isn't the marketing tool. The apps 3rd parties develop with the API are the marketing tool. Which is why the open API is part of their marketing. Coolness of the API is the "metamarketing": marketing to geeks, whose apps market TiVo to the masses. Just like the PS2 polygon engine is metamarketing: players don't care, they care about the spiffy games, produced by programmers who care about the polygon engine.

Re:That's spelled "geeks"

[iowannaski]

The 1% of us who are geeks, who create an app against the TiVo API, then share those apps with the other 99%.

Nice try, but it is more like the .1% of you who are uber-geeks create apps for the 3% of who are geek enough to find and install it./p?

Re:That's spelled "geeks"

[Doc Ruby]

Firefox

ReplayTV

[omahajim]

Does no one like ReplayTV anymore? I see only one other mention of Replay in the currently posted comments. My old Panasonic HS2000 (many many years old) is still going strong on ReplayTV.

I like MyReplayTV on the web, and I like the skip forward button.

Is Replay the Beta to Tivo's VHS? (figuratively speaking - where the alleged better technology doesn't always win). I admit that I've never owned a Tivo, but in the few times I did side-by-side them, I greatly preferred the Replay.

--
/. foreclosed on my sig.

Re:ReplayTV

[jeff4747]

Does no one like ReplayTV anymore?

No, they just went out of business. Makes it so you can't buy 'new' units so reviews like TFA don't bother with them.

Re:ReplayTV

[omahajim]

They're not dead yet? Didn't D&M buy them and agree to simply remove the program-sharing function? Sure looks like I can buy new units at my local CompUSA or through www.replaytv.com.

I'm not trying to be a (overused phrase here) "fanboy", just trying to check your argument.

Re:ReplayTV

[jeff4747]

It's more psychological than reality. Since the company ReplayTV failed, it's usually assumed by reviewers that anyone else will also fail with the same box.

That's why products bought from failed companies are usually renamed, so that they don't have the stigma of their previous owners.

Re:ReplayTV

[adavidw]

They haven't had a new manufacturing run of the boxes in a long time and don't plan to, but it will take a while to sell through all the remaining units. After that time, D&M wants to use the technology in their other products or license it to third parties.

ReplayTV did this once before, at the end of 2000, but they did an about face and went on to produce the 4000 and 5000 series, but this time it looks like they're serious.

Source: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050228/cgm065_1.html

Re:ReplayTV

[boarder]

ummmmm... they didn't go out of business, they were bought out. And you can still buy "new" units. Or by "new" did you mean updated in the last year? You can go to their webpage and buy a new unit. They just haven't put out a new model in some time. I just gave my 4504 to my dad (since I am now using DirecTivo) and hate every minute of TV without auto-commercial skip. If I ever go back to cable, I'll probably take the replaytv back from him. That is, of course, assuming I don't go HD.

Re:ReplayTV

[tf23]

Does no one like ReplayTV anymore?

Maybe they're too busy watching what's recorded on 'em instead of reading Slashdot? ;)

Our family loves our ReplayTV. Got it for $99. Time/$ wise at the time it beat building a MythTV, for me atleast.

30 skip is "hidden" Re:Motorola 6xxx HDDVR is best

[FerretFrottage]

It does have a 30 second skip...there is a remote control hack or two if you google around for it--although some people claim that comcast has disabled it on some boxes....it works on mine.

Here's one source

comcast hd-dvr not as bad as expected

[adpowers]

My mom surprised me one day saying she ordered the HD DVR from Comcast (which runs Microsoft software). It is like $5/month or something like that, and there was no up front purchase. I was horrified, someone between those two companies could be nothing less than spawn of the devil. Well, as usual, the installation experience was bad (I've never had a good install from Comcast), because their software servers were having problems and it took a few hours to download the software. After that, however, I was amazed at how much better it was than I expected. The interface is nothing to call home about, but at least it loads and moves pretty fast. The thing that impressed me the most was the HDTV recording ability. You are able to record two HD streams and watch another at the same time! I tried scrubbing through some HD shows we recorded and it was smooth at any speed I tried, it fast forwarded better than any digital content I have seen and even VHS tapes... and this was high definition content.

Another that I appreciate is that it doesn't put ads on screen when you pause video, you can see exactly what you want to. It also doesn't assume what you are interested in and try recording shows it thinks you would like. Probably my biggest gripe is that it doesn't know what channels you don't get (which is probably Comcast's fault). It'll dispaly a bunch of channels while browsing the channels, but we don't get half of them. Not only does it take more time to scroll, but I have also tried recording shows that are on a channel we don't get. Since it doesn't know better, it silently tries to record it, yet nothing shows up. It would be nice if it could give us a warning. I have yet to see a show we weren't able to record (although, if it starts happening when the broadcast flag comes out, I'll have my parents return it).

Last Sunday I set it to record the Oscars, and then I fast forwarded through at super speed and just watched the good parts. That was very handy.

It also has firewire output, but I have yet to try transferring the shows to my PowerBook (using a utility that saves HD streams from firewire). I'd really like to do this so I can save all the IMAX movies on the INHD channels for a long period of time.

Andrew

Re:comcast hd-dvr not as bad as expected

[Thud457]

"Last Sunday I set it to record the Oscars, and then I fast forwarded through at super speed and just watched the good parts. That was very handy."

Interesting. So because you had a DVR, you watched (part of) something that you wouldn't invest the time to watch the whole thing in realtime. I bet advertisers would love to know that!

Re:comcast hd-dvr not as bad as expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably my biggest gripe is that it doesn't know what channels you don't get (which is probably Comcast's fault). It'll dispaly a bunch of channels while browsing the channels, but we don't get half of them.

I'm sure it would be simple to filter those channels from the list, but my guess is that they leave them there by design. They want you to see what you're not getting in hopes that you'll sign up for a more expensive package.

Re:comcast hd-dvr not as bad as expected

[Osty]

You are able to record two HD streams and watch another at the same time!

You should clarify this. Like DirecTV DVRs, the Comcast box is dual-tuner, which means you can record one HD or SD channel while watching another HD or SD channel. If you want to record two HD or SD channels at the same time, you can watch a pre-recorded HD or SD stream as well, but you can't watch another HD or SD channel (that would require a third tuner).

I really like the new box, but the disk space is a little low (one hour-long HD recording and one hour-long SD recording currently takes 7% of the space on my box), and there's no option to change the recording quality level to fit reduce the space used. The search is a little weak, and the series scheduler isn't smart enough to know that it already recorded an episode (I have to go through and remove the encore presentations of shows like Carnivale, since the DVR records it on Sunday night, and then wants to record the same episode again on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Saturday). I still love my Tivo, but the ability to record HDTV streams forgives all of the other issues I have with the Comcast box. Now if only it had a 30 second skip/8 second reverse skip like Tivo ...

Re:comcast hd-dvr not as bad as expected

[Anonymous Coward]

"there's no option to change the recording quality level to fit reduce the space used"

Of course there isn't. It saving the mpeg stream directly to the disk. Duh! What hell would it do otherwise? Decode and reencode it?

Re:comcast hd-dvr not as bad as expected

[adpowers]

And the thing is, I don't mind commercials, but there are some caveats. They have to be entertaining (like IBM commercials or some of the recent Pepsi ads and those Ameri[quest|trade] ones they did during the super bowl ('Don't judge too fast")), they can't be obnoxious or stupid, and I better not see them too much. If I see a new IBM commercial, or even a commercial I've seen before but like, I'll stop fast forwarding, rewind, and watch it. Now, it won't necessarily make me want to buy the product (I don't drink pop/soda, sorry Pepsi), but it does make me mention the company more (like in this post, or other times when discussing the commercial). The more commercials I see (and the more often I have to see the same ones over and over), the less likely I want to watch them.

Re:comcast hd-dvr not as bad as expected

[adpowers]

True, and that is the reason I watch HDTV in the first place! There are shows I would never watch in standard definition, but I do in HD, because of the simple fact that it is HD (like a recent show on Antarctica on the INHD channel).

There is one point that is right, though, it is dual tuner and that would have been more clear for me to say.

Propaganda

[TexTex]

It seems like all three have various nice features but all three also have negatives that you have to suffer through.

Um...from reading the article (and I'd hope our submitter did, as he's the first feedback post praising the author)...you'll see how most of it defends the MS box on a point-by-point basis of what Tivo offers.

To me, it reads like 'We can do everything Tivo can do better...' It's a response to Pogue's praise of Tivo with praise of his own. A fair comparison, a blogger's thoughts on DVRs, and a waste of slashdot's frontpage.

Re:Propaganda

[mveloso]

As a demonstration of Microsoft's continuing committment to the Media Center initiative, you will now be receiving free anti-virus and anti-spyware tools with your Media Center PC.

Microsoft Corporation. Bringing Technology to your Desktop, Laptop, and Living Room for over 20 years. Your Trusted Name in Technology.

Re:Propaganda

[Thomas Hawk]

I did read the article. It does highlight much of what Media Center can do but also reiterates from the New York Times article what TiVo can do and throws in the analysis on the two. If MCE can do everything that TiVo can I think it is fair and that there is nothing wrong with pointing this out. It's nice having the third comparison with the HDTV cable box and the added analysis of what the author calls the "elephants in the room," HDTV and multiple tuners. If there are features that were neglected in the review then there is nothing like a good slashdotting to fete them out. An MCE box of course can be much more expensive than a TiVo too which perhaps should be mentioned -- although recently I've been surprised at how cheap these Media Centers are coming down for lower end systems and when you throw lifetime service in for the TiVo it is not that much cheaper really. The review also addressed the HDTV issue and although neither Media Center or TiVo offer ideal opportunities here today (hence negative feature) suffering through the poorly designed cable UI is the alternative. The HDTV TiVo DirecTV also seems to be suggested as an option but dismissed due to cost. I would have liked to have seen this (along with the Comcast Foundation box) explored more as was expressed in my comment submission. Personally the HDTV TiVo was the direction that I went and have been extremely happy with my HDTV DirecTV TiVo despite the price. I still run my Media Center PC though as it allows me to do certain things that I can't with my closed box DirecTV system -- namely manage my pictures and music and get recorded content off the box on my laptop and for editing. Then there is also the Linux Media Hub that HP is theoretically coming out wiht later this year which will support HDTV, again theoretically, which also might be mentioned in the whole conversation. Although Ed seems to prefer Media Center I don't think this is "propoganda." It's a fair comparison and his opinion. I happen to agree with a lot of his observations while even ultimately moving my primary television platform to the superior HDTV DirecTV TiVo.

Re:Propaganda

[RedWizzard]

Although Ed seems to prefer Media Center I don't think this is "propoganda." It's a fair comparison and his opinion.

The author didn't really seem to be evaluating the Tivo though. He was simply replying to someone else's list of Tivo features with "yes, but the MCE can do the same better". With products like these it's often the little things that make the difference and there wasn't much discussion of that. Given that the author has used the three products, I was hoping that there would be a fair bit more indepth comparison of the strengths and weaknesses of each product, rather than the "rah, rah, MCE is great" tone the article ended up taking on. I wanted to know how the author felt about the overall experience of using each product, and there wasn't much of that.

And the lack of price context is a unfortunate, as you mentioned.

what i would like to see Tivo add

[Anonymous Coward]

playlists. i have lots of "Comedy Central Presents" recorded (30 minutes of stand-up comdey) that I like to play in the background as I'm doing work or cleaning. i'd love to be able to program it to play a bunch of recordings back-2-back in whatever order i want. :D

oh the irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo uses ASP for their website

Does that mean...

[SmokeHalo]

...that TiVo is made by Time Lords? I'm surprised the shipping costs aren't greater, coming from Gallifrey.

Re:Does that mean...

[Mindwarp]

I'm surprised the shipping costs aren't greater, coming from Gallifrey.

It's OK - they get away with using second class USPS by posting in three million years before the order's placed.

Gimmie that old time trolling...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what I like to see! Petty bickering's much more entertaining than neverending complaints about dupes!

Cable cos are catching up fast

[FunWithHeadlines]

Reading that article, I wondered how my Time Warner issued Scientific Atlanta DVR box would rank with Tivo (which I've never used). The article says at the top, however, that he was testing a Scientific Atlanta box with SARA software, not Passport software. The difference is striking! A lot of the advantages of Tivo disappear with Passport.

My box has the intelligent fast forward, and it amazingly gets me to the right place without going too far. Actually, that's not amazing, for I can envision exactly how to program that in, but whatever, they did it. My box also has much more flexibility on programming season-long programs. I can do Once, or All, or only first-run episodes, or only reruns or both, only on this channel, on any channel, only at this time, at any time, 5-minutes before the hour, or 5-minutes (or 10 or 15) after the hour, etc.

I think the point is that the cable companies intend to compete hard and fast here. If the progress from the SARA models to the Passport models advances the start of the art this much, Tivo had better be worried. Tivo still out-does my box in full text searching, and the like. But I would bet that the next version of my box will have more wonders to behold. And yeah, at $10 a month or so, and no phone line or Net connection to make, it's a great product.

Re:Cable cos are catching up fast

[Anonymous Coward]

Very true. I use the SA 8000 DVR and love it. I know alot of people of complaints, I can only attribute it to the software. Thank goodness mine is Passport.

The SA 8000 has two tuners, can do PIP, and (this was missing from the article) has a 1 hour buffer that with one press of a button you can record. It also backtracks 5 seconds when you stop fast forwarding through commercials.

It works well for me.

Re:Cable cos are catching up fast

[swb]

I think the biggest problem Tivo has is that they didn't have a hardware stratedgy; it was all software. This has left them with nothing new to offer even Tivo stalwarts like me in the face of needed digital cable recording (CableCard), digital audio recording, or HD (which would be combinable with CableCard, although an SD CableCard solution wouldn't be bad, either).

phone line

[Dop]

When are they going to get past the phone line requirement for initial setup? I have the DirectTV TiVo and it works great getting channel info right off of the satallite once it's setup, but I had to bring a dish over to a friends house to use their phoneline at first.

Can not get TiVo

[sxmjmae]

Saddly TiVo is illegeal in Canada.

I have the Media center Computer running the the Windoows XP Media center Edition and a media Ranger extender.

I must say it is very impressive. I have said it before and i will say it again.... I am sure this is just a test bed for a specialized DVR box from Microsoft (or to combine it with the XBOX).

Re:Can not get TiVo

[GeckoX]

Illegal?

Not available maybe, but illegal? I'd be quite surprised.

I was promised blipverts! Where are the blipverts?

[Thud457]

I want high-speed download of commercials to the tivo for my later viewing pleasure! (Unfortunately, there seem to be some negative side-effects for real-time viewers.)

Moderation: -1 Pedantic Twit

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the lesson professor! We're so lucky to have you around!

My stance towards Tivo

[Isldeur]

Here's my stance towards Tivo. I'd love to support that company - I like what they did originally and understand they have pressures these days so that things may be less than ideal.

But I always knew I'd be moving towards HD, so I didn't jump the bandwagon when it first came out. Now I have two options:

1. Buy a HD Tivo for more than $1000 and then pay a monthly fee of something like $13.00, or
2. Get Adelphia's HD DVR for (get this) free for 5 months, then $4.95 per month.

O.k. So Tivo might be better. But it isn't that better. And, as I never had one of the originals, (as most people ) I don't know the difference.

Tivo, in its current form, without liscencing from Cable Companies, is dead. It's only time.

Re:My stance towards Tivo

[Gruneun]

Buy a HD Tivo for more than $1000 and then pay a monthly fee of something like $13.00

Yes and no. A DirecTV subscription is required for the HD TiVo and the additional DVR charge is only $5 for all the DVRs on your plan... on top of, of course, the monthly charge for DirecTV and additional $10 for their HD channels, should you choose to get them. There is no charge for TiVo beyond your DirecTV bill.

I patiently waited for the price to drop before I picked up the HD TiVo. When it didn't, I got it anyway. I have no regrets and cancelling my shitty, overpriced Adelphia service (which promised HD for years and never delievered) was quite pleasant.

Re:My stance towards Tivo

[dazzla_2000]

The cable companies don't need to license Tivo. You can go buy your own Tivo cable box soon:

TiVo Developing High-Definition, Digital Cable Ready DVR

Re:My stance towards Tivo

[ad0gg]

You spent $1000 on directivo HD? Thats $83 a month for 1 year, thats more than I pay a month for adelphia with their hd pvr and then you have to pay directv charges on top of it. You really must love tv.

Re:My stance towards Tivo

[Gruneun]

Yes, I do love tv, but it's not the volume, it's the quality I enjoy. The price of the HD TiVo was steep, but Adelphia couldn't provide me with HD and the cost is a fraction of what my otherwise untapped HD TV cost. I weighed the TiVo against the time and money I would have paid to create a computer with the capability of recording HD from a DirecTV receiver or OTA HD receiver (with the ease and features of TiVo), and determined it was worth it. Besides, I got so much free DirecTV credit that the cost was probably closer to $600 and your mothly quote assumes I would have tossed the device after a year.

To each, his own.

Re:My stance towards Tivo

[bubba451]

...and your $1000 box will be obsolete in a few months. Here's one of the many stories that explain that since local channels will be broadcast using MPEG-4, the current HD DirectTV Tivos won't be able to pick them up.

DirecTV claims they'll help out with the transition, but I don't know if I'm ready to risk a grand on that.

Off-topic post - Firefox 1.01 with slashdot

[Bohnanza]

Is slashdot even worse with Firefox 1.01??

Re:Off-topic post - Firefox 1.01 with slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

yes - much

Re:Off-topic post - Firefox 1.01 with slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Phew. I'm glad it's not just me. Horrible formatting. So who's being non-compliant with standards... Slashdot or Firefox?

have charter pvr (Moxi) here in st.louis

[Hohlraum]

It offers on-demand video, HD and recording multiple shows at the same time. The user interface is a joke. They recently changed the 'Movies' section to start off in the center of the on-demand listings so if you wanna scroll to the list of movies for the channels you already pay for you have to scroll for awhile. I find that VERY disappointing. It really is the worst UI i've ever encountered in a product. I'm not sure what they were thinking.

DirecTV + TiVo

[altp]

I use Directv with the built in tivo and love it. The Tivo software integrates with the normal program guide from DirecTV, and works just like a normal tivo in every other way.

Unfortunately it only has 35 hours of storage and last time I checked that was as big as they went (I'm not interested in putting in a larger hdd myself. I spend all day fixing/building/programming computers. When i watch TV i want a solution that just plugs in and works).

After playing with PVR's from dishnetwork, adelphia, and comcast i have absolutely no interest in anything besides tivo. (Myth tv is nice, but again, its a hack that I don't want to deal with when i am sitting down for 20 minutes to watch some tv).

Re:DirecTV + TiVo

[rhavyn]

I was actually on the phone with DirecTV asking them about upgrading my Tivo today and they have an 80 hour Series 2 system. It's $99 + $14 shipping. You may also be able to find it at your local Best Buy.

Re:DirecTV + TiVo

[not-real-sure]

I have the same setup and I feel that it is top notch. Its really nothing fancy but it works. Never had to reboot it never had any trouble with signal quality. As for HD I can't afford an HD TV so its moot in my book.

I'm using MCE 2005

[prisoner]

and it better than I expected. The problems come during initial setup (as expected) as you have to figure out a sea of acronyms and discover inherent shortcomings in various products/interfaces/software. The other problem is the sometimes very specific driver versions that one has to use that aren't clearly marked as such by the manufacturer. The hauppage cards are chief among them (or were 6 months ago when I setup the beast). There is a lot of knowledge that is taken for granted by the manufacturers of these things that most people don't have or can't figure out.

Having said that, MCE is pretty damn cool. We use the XBOX extender to bring life to the XBOX that had been collecting dust for the past year and it works great. The interface is easy to use and easy to see. I haven't used previous versions of MCE but if it like other MS software, it takes at least 2 revs to get it about right. This version is "about right."

The next hurdle will be integrating HDTV into the whole lash-up but I'm putting that off for awhile. Right now, I just switch to a different video input to get HD.

Re:I'm using MCE 2005

[Anonymous Coward]

but if it like other MS software, it takes at least 2 revs to get it about right

3.0
3.1
95
NT
98
98SE
2000
ME
XP
2003.. . and it still stucks

The real test..

[Anonymous Coward]

Which would you give to your mother. There is no way would I give her a Media Center PC and go through all the support calls. Same w/ Myth TV, not a chance. I would give her a Tivo, which just works very well, or a Cable Co DVR which just works kind of well. I choose Tivo since it just works(tm) and has a very nice interface with very nice features.

HDTV Wonder

[Shalda]

I recently picked up the ATI HDTV Wonder and so far, it's pretty good at recording programs, but the user interface on the included software (downloading the latest from ATI) is horrible. What I'm wondering is if anyone out there has found a better interface for it. Otherwise, I love that digital picture.

Re:HDTV Wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently picked up the ATI HDTV Wonder and so far, it's pretty good at recording programs, but the user interface on the included software (downloading the latest from ATI) is horrible. What I'm wondering is if anyone out there has found a better interface for it.

I think MS Windows MCE 2005 is a better interface for ATI's HDTV Wonder, but it's not a cheap "upgrade" option. The OS (OEM only) costs $119 (plus $2 in hardware) at Directon. In addition, a standard analog TV tuner must also be installed. That costs an additional $60.

Extremetech has an article titled "Build Your Own Windows Media Center PC" where they use an ATI HDTV Wonder with Windows MCE 2005. They work great together.

Bittorrent...

[homer_ca]

...is my Tivo!

(not my joke. repeating another /.er's comment)

words, some people have heard of them

[motorsabbath]

Turn off your television, read a book. TV is for schmoes. ;-)

Re:words, some people have heard of them

[lupinstel]

Ummmmmm, the pictures in books don't move. Duh!

Re:words, some people have heard of them

[Anonymous Coward]

Area Man Constantly Mentioning
He Doesn't Own A Television

CHAPEL HILL, NCArea resident Jonathan Green does not own a television, a fact he repeatedly points out to friends, family, and coworkersas well as to his mailman, neighborhood convenience-store clerks, and the man who cleans the hallways in his apartment building.

Above: Jonathan Green, who tells as many people as possible that he is "fully weaned off the glass teat."

"I, personally, would rather spend my time doing something useful than watch television," Green told a random woman Monday at the Suds 'N' Duds Laundromat, noticing the establishment's wall-mounted TV. "I don't even own one."

According to Melinda Elkins, a coworker of Green's at The Frame Job, a Chapel Hill picture-frame shop, Green steers the conversation toward television whenever possible, just so he can mention not owning one.

"A few days ago, [store manager] Annette [Haig] was saying her new contacts were bothering her," Elkins said. "The second she said that, I knew Jonathan would pounce. He was like, 'I didn't know you had contacts, Annette. Are your eyes bad? That's a shame. I'm really lucky to have almost perfect visionI need reading glasses, but that's it. I'm guessing it's because I don't watch TV. In fact, I don't even own one."

According to Elkins, "idiot box" is Green's favorite derogatory term for television.

"He uses that one a lot," she said. "But he's got other ones, too, like 'boob tube' and 'electronic babysitter.'"

Elkins said Green always makes sure to read the copies of Entertainment Weekly and People lying around the shop's breakroom, "just so he can point out all the stars and shows he's never heard of."

"Last week, in one of the magazines, there was a picture of Calista Flockhart," Elkins said, "and Jonathan announced, 'I have absolutely no idea who this woman is. Calista who? Am I supposed to have heard of her? I'm sorry, but I haven't.'"

Tony Gerela, who lives in the apartment directly below Green's and occasionally chats with the 37-year-old by the mailboxes, is well aware of his neighbor's disdain for television.

"About a week after I met him, we were talking, and I made some kind of Simpsons reference," Gerela said. "He asked me what I was talking about, and when I told him it was from a TV show, he just went off, saying how the last show he watched was some episode of Cheers, and even then, he could only watch for about two minutes before having to shut it off because it insulted his intelligence so terribly."

Added Gerela: "Once, I made the mistake of saying I saw something on the news, and he started in with, 'Saw the news? I don't know about you, but I read the news."

Green has lived without television since 1989, when his then-girlfriend moved out and took her set with her.

"When Claudia went, the TV went with her," Green said. "But instead of just going out and buying another onewhich I certainly could have afforded, that wasn't the issueI decided to stand up to the glass teat."

"I'm not an elitist," Green said. "It's just that I'd much rather sculpt or write in my journal or read Proust than sit there passively staring at some phosphorescent screen."

"If I need a fix of passive audio-visual stimulation, I'll go to catch a Bergman or Truffaut film down at the university," Green said. "I certainly wouldn't waste my time watching the so-called Learning Channel or, God forbid, any of the mind sewage the major networks pump out."

Continued Green: "People don't realize just how much time their TV-watching habitor, shall I say, addictioneats up. Four hours of television a day, over the course of a month, adds up to 120 hours. That's five entire days! Why not spend that time living your own life, instead of watching fictional people live theirs? I can't begin to tell you how happy I am not to own a television."

M$ media center

[solomonrex]

You mean a box costing 5 times as much ACTUALLY work as well as the $200 box and MIGHT exceed it? Talk about damning with faint praise.

What about DishNetworks offerings?

[GweeDo]

I have the DishNetwork DVR 522. It is a SD box with dual tuners. This is great because I can either watch two live streams at once (on two seperate TV's or PIP on one), I can record two live streams to the Hard Drive, watch one live and record one, or I can record two and watch two previously recorded ones. The options that dual tuner DVR's bring to the table are great. Dish also just recently added their "Dish Pass" features to the 522 to offer full NBR (Name Based Recording). It is great to say "Give me all the CSI on CBS" or "Give me all the CSI on all channels" or "Give me all the new CSI on CBS". I love it!

Dish is now offering the DVR 942 as well. It is an HD DVR with all those features. The secondary output is SD and will even down sample all HD content (live and recorded) for viewing on your secondary box.

To not include these offerings from Dish seems silly. They are serious about DVR.

I prefer UltimateTV

[Goldenhawk]

... over Tivo. We bought an UltimateTV reciever from Radio Shack (*gasp!*) about five years ago. Since then, my wife's mom upgraded from a basic DirecTV unit to a DirecTivo unit, and we have had plenty of time to use it, and we were so frustrated by the Tivo's limitations that we immediately went on eBay and bought a couple more used UTV units for spare parts and backup units. While not as hackable as a Tivo (you can upgrade the hard drive), the basic functionality is equal to a Tivo, the guide appears and scrolls far faster, the 30-second skip works perfectly, it's got the predictive resume everyone has been raving about in this discussion, and we actually like the fact it does NOT guess what we want to watch and fill up our hard drive unless we ask it to do so. And oh, yes, it does allow us to specify not to record duplicates, etc. One big plus - the Tivo's max fast forward speed only seems to be about 8x real time. The UTV will do 300x fast forward and rewind.

Unfortunately, nobody sells these units new anymore; apparently Microsoft decided to put its eggs in the MCE basket instead.

We looked at the HDTV version of the DirecTivo, and it was even worse than the basic DirecTivo.

We won't be able to use the UTV boxen with HDTV, but then we don't watch TV so much that it really bothers us, and besides we are too far from a major market to get over-the-air HDTV anyway.

Re:I prefer UltimateTV

[Vile Slime]

> we were so frustrated by the Tivo's limitations

Huh?

> the guide appears and scrolls far faster

TIVO's guide speed is dependent on which guide style you use. But, I could believe that TIVO's guide speed is slower than any other box's. But, remember, one TIVO guide style is much faster than the other.

> the 30-second skip works perfectly

So what's the big deal, just click four or five buttons on the TIVO remote to enable the capability and then it's 30 second skip works perfect also.

> it's got the predictive resume

Ok, so how does that make TIVO more frustrating?

> we actually like the fact it does NOT guess what we want to watch and fill up our hard drive

Obviously you didn't become as familar with the TIVO as you originally claimed. That feature is easily turned off.

> Tivo's max fast forward speed only seems to be about 8x real time

The actual speeds are 3x, 20x, and 60x. You did press the fast forward button three times, right?

> We looked at the HDTV version of the DirecTivo, and it was even worse than the basic DirecTivo.

I can hardly imagine why. It's the same box except it has four tuners (two HD, two SD), can record from two of them simultaneously, upconverts or downconverts to different resolutions seamlessly and is substantially more configurable.

Re:I prefer UltimateTV

[Keeper]

TIVO's guide speed is dependent on which guide style you use. But, I could believe that TIVO's guide speed is slower than any other box's. But, remember, one TIVO guide style is much faster than the other.

The TIVO UI in general is "laggy". It often takes several seconds to transition between screens. The live tv guide is probably the worst offender, as paging down twice takes about 15 seconds to populate the information. Not horrible -- just annoying.

The actual speeds are 3x, 20x, and 60x. You did press the fast forward button three times, right?

There is also a way to change these values so that they're faster.

multiple end-points?

[cblomqui]

I dare say, most of us live in places with multiple occupants... in some extreme cases, there are televisions in every room... but I really don't want to run independant DVRs for each of them...

I combat this problem with the server/client facilities of MythTV. I have one Myth server with a couple of tuner cards and a boat-load of disk space which does all of the recording and storeage. Then I use modded xboxen (running KnoppMyth) to drive each of the other televisions. This way I need not buy 3 TiVos or pay for 3 recorders from the cable company.

I know the article didn't talk about MythTV, but I've some experience with a microsoft MCE pc. microsoft sells an app for the xbox which turns it into a front-end to the MCE server.

Re:multiple end-points?

[Student_Tech]

Exact idea(well similar) to what my friend and I intend to do next year in our apartment.
A box with 600GB of storage, some decent power(XP 2800+) with a dual tuner mpeg capture card (PVR-500) is going to be less than $800.
(Box is going to be a general purpose media storage/print/internet gateway box as well as the mythTV backend. If we get bored it might be hooked up to the TV as well and use it as front end)

I agree that Xboxes(en?) make good front ends. I got a Xebian build on mine with the mythTv running. I Just wish it was a bit more powerful so I could watch @ 1.5x on more of my shows.

Really getting OT, for some reason everything looks better when displayed @ 480p(from Xbox) than the composite from my VCR into my display, despite the fact it is from the same source. Heck might have to do with the fact that black on the composite in is a sort of grey, and black on the RGB/Component(via a transcoder) in on the display is a nice black. Might also just be in my head.

Re:multiple end-points?

[LilMikey]

Damn straight.

Our MythTV server is hooked directly to the 55" Mitsubishi. There's an Xbox that roves to whichever tv requires it (usually the bedroom). There's a PC on the downstairs TV for Myth, Stepmania and unimportant stuff like CVS server, FTP server, bittorrent. Honestly, most of the TV is watched on the other general use PCs while one of us are checking our mail or goofing on the internet.

Re:multiple end-points?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me get this straight. You're trying to be cheap by using MythTV, and spending more time and energy in the process. Yet, in the end, compared to a TiVo home network setup, you have less tuners (2 vs 3), have paid more for the xboxes (149 vs 99 for new TiVos [even less on ebay]), get the awesome interface that people love about TiVo, and can still share everything. Make each person pony up their own 6.95/box/month - don't go out to lunch one time per month, and you've paid for it, not to mention the time and energy you're saving by not dealing with MythTV setup.

Re:multiple end-points?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mention the monthly fee, I suspect that if you have multiple TiVos that will go up, and over time the MythTV solution may be cheaper.
MythTv guide data for know is free, just fill out a survey every 3 months.

It's an Xbox for the front end, I can play games on it, watch DVDs, and watch lots of other media on it as well. A TiVo, well, it doesn't do all that.
I use an Xbox for a front end, cost was nothing because I already had it and while yes, I spent some time to get it working (quite a bit to get digital audio out working), I consider it a learning experience.
As for the backend, I already had a cheap capture card and my machine is powerful enough to do the software encoding.

So total cost for me to do a MythTv with seperate front and backends was: $0. Just some time spent setting it up, and that was a learning experience.

If I felt like adding a few more front ends, I would probably build up a cheap box and drop a few PVR-500s (dual tuner mpeg2 hardware compression cards)($160/each) into it.
Yes total initial cost would end up higher than a bunch of TiVos, but it would probably make it up in not having to pay the monthly (or lifetime ) fee for each TiVo.

Tivo is dying

[FreedomPolice]

DVRs are now a commodity, to profit Tivo should have kept innovating. Instead cheap cableco DVRs are eating Tivos lunch on the low end and Tivo has ceded the high end by not supporting HiDef. If Tivo wants to survive they need to:

1. Get HiDef support NOW!
2. Lower the cost of subscription. Many people use the internet to download show data, Tivo should pass the savings to the consumer. Current Tivo owners won't upgrade because newer Tivos aren't noticeably better than old ones, and people new to DVRs want either a cheap one or one that supports HD.
3. Innovate dammit! Make the hard drives bigger and the box smaller, incorporate some of the best hacks out there into the base unit, come up with stuff that people don't even know they want yet, and above all get your head out of Hollywoods ass.

Re:Tivo is dying

[Gruneun]

Get HiDef support NOW!

They have it. It's been available for about a year now through DirecTV and it supports OTA broadcast. They can't provide it for cable companies because TiVo would have to support their individual formats and they all want to introduce their proprietary boxes.

Lower the cost of subscription.

They did. Additional TiVo cost less than the original. Lifetime service is still available and pays for itself in a few years. Then, there's no monthly charge.

Innovate dammit!

They have HD. They don't prevent people from adding larger drives. They have DVD recorders. They're opening the API. Meanwhile, they're building name recognition outside of the tech world. Give it some time.

get your head out of Hollywoods ass
Keeping off of Hollywood's radar has allowed them to survive where competitors have been sued into nonexistence.

Re:Tivo is dying

[demon]

They can't provide it for cable companies because TiVo would have to support their individual formats and they all want to introduce their proprietary boxes.

One word. "CableCard". HD cable is sufficiently standard, they just aren't using the same signaling as over-the-air HD. Just provide an HD-ready TiVO that can use a CableCard to auth with the head-end gear, and... where's the problem? They really do need HD (particularly HD cable) support, and fast - I'd rather have a TiVO than the relatively shabby cable company DVR, but without HD support, it's not that attractive anymore.

Re:Tivo is dying

[Gruneun]

Somewhere else in the main thread, there was a link to a January press release from TiVo mentioning that specific technology for a cable-based, HD DVR. It was the first I had heard of it, obviously since my previous post, and it seems a natural progression for them. None of the cable companies will introduce a non-proprietary box, so TiVo is still in the best position to grab the largest chunk of market share.

I just think it's a bit too soon to say the company is dying. The fan base is far too rabid and any competitors are far behind or focusing on a much smaller audience.

bottom line TCO

[dmh20002]

TFA didn't include an explicit comparison of TCO.

cable box DVR is cheapest 5-10 a month, no up front

tivo is cheap in the short run. $100 up front plus 12.95 a month

MSFT media PC expensive $500+ up front. cheapest HP mcpc = $549 plus shipping, no ongoing cost for programming guide.

Myth TV sw no cost, hw expensive up front similar $500+ for computer, no ongoing fee.

Re:bottom line TCO

[mkop]

I agree with this cost comparison. I have a total of 3 tivo's 1 series one and 2 series two's I have lifetime for 2 of the units(was $199 way back when) and only pay $6.95 a month for my other one. The tivo2go functionality needs work and they really need to get the HDTV support on all of thier models now, and make it cheaper. MCE is nice to use, but you need a full blown PC lot's of disk space and Windows to use it. There is more functionality and the picture viewing and music listening is much better to use than on the tivo. Hopefully Tivo can get back on top and not be pushed around by microsoft and the cable companys

Re:bottom line TCO

[JoeNiner]

DirecTivo SD: 50-100 up front, $5 per month, includes second tuner.

Re:bottom line TCO

[Dan667]

You need to add in what you are getting with each.

It is not really $500 with MythTV if you just want standard tv. You can use a 500MHz machine and a single tuner for a one time cost of a couple of hundred dollars. If you get into HDTV then you will need the bigger box so more cost. If you want to record more than one show at a time then you will need more tuners, something most other solutions do not even have.

So the guy with three tivos has less features / capabilities than the guy with one MythTV Server with three diskless frontends. (and the Myth Guy can record multiple shows simultaneously and watch them all on every frontend) But the two solutions approach the same price.

My comparison

[That's Unpossible!]

I also currently use an 8300HD, but I have the passport software that he mentioned, and it is definitely better than what he was reviewing. Only thing that is lacking is tivo's wishlists and 30-second skip. I never used 30-second skip much anyway. The things the HD DVR offers that my TiVo did not is complete integration with the cable service, and a tiny pricetag. I think I pay $9 a month for the PVR. With TiVo I had to buy the box, upgrade it, and then pay $13 a month to keep it updated. If it broke, it was a hassle. If my HD DVR breaks, I call the cable company, and they stop by and exchange it with a new one, no charge.

Sadly, TiVo will not be able to compete against this much longer, they need to come up with some things the cable companies cannot match, and QUICKLY.

BTW, I also have used the HD DirecTiVo, and while I did like it better than regular TiVo, since it is integrated with the service more nicely, I disliked the way DirecTV works. Many people complain about cable providers, but in the southeast, TimeWarner/BrightHouse has been unbelievable...

Re:My comparison

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Sadly, TiVo will not be able to compete against this much longer, they need to come up with some things the cable companies cannot match, and QUICKLY.

It is really hard to compete against a monopoly. I mean do you really think the cable company can provide the hardware, service, support, software development, etc. for $5-$10 a month? Most likely they just roll most of their costs into everyone's cable bill (since they are a monopoly they don't have to worry about underselling the competition) and Tivo user's and people without PVRs end up subsidizing their service.

TiVo has, IMHO, taken the wrong course. They can't compete with the cable companies so they have tried partnering with them and playing nice. It is killing them. The cable companies have all the power. I wouldn't buy a quit smoking program from Phillip-Morris. I wouldn't buy a car manufactured by an oil company. I won't buy a PVR made by a cable company (or one of their close partners).

The PVR market will move in one of two directions. It will either be dominated by the cable companies and become their outlet for getting you DRM'ed video, that you can't avoid the commercials for, and does whatever it is they feel like implementing; or, it will be taken over by companies dedicated to post processing content to suit the needs of the watcher by skipping commercials, archiving, and allowing easy transfer of files. Option two has my vote, and my money. My PVR is great, it archives to DVD, skips commercials, and has no DRM or broadcast flag restrictions. It is what the TiVo should have been.

Re:My comparison

[That's Unpossible!]

It is really hard to compete against a monopoly.

DirecTV and Dish Network are competing against cable companies just fine. The problem is that TiVo has no content to package along with their device.

Re:My comparison

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

DirecTV and Dish Network are competing against cable companies just fine.

Railroads and bus lines are competing against the airlines just fine as well. That does not mean people who try to sell in-flight meals will not be screwed if the airlines start manufacturing their own meals.

The problem is that TiVo has no content to package along with their device.

...because the content manufacturers/distributers have decided to move into TiVo's market, which is a hell of a lot easier than TiVo trying to start making and distributing TV shows (although we all know it would be nice if someone did).

I shopped hard and then went with KISS

[rbrander]

I looked at TiVO, at the Interact-TV "Telly" (see interact-tv.com), at the Lite-On DVR, and very hard at MythTV.

And finally, I went and bought a "humble" Pioneer DVR-520, that's just a VCR except it burns DVDs and/or records to hard drive. No network access to TV schedules at all, you have to set it to record Channel X at Y o'clock on day Z.

TiVO might have won if they would just friggin' provide TV guide service to Canada, but they won't.

And all the solutions that are really a Linux or Windows PC in a smaller box had the same problem: they crash.

Most of them not often, but even once every few weeks is way too often. If it were just me, fine, but my wife was unequivocal: we don't NEED the thing, she's just wearily learning a new remote and whole new approach to TV just to get along with me..."But if it crashes like a PC in the middle of the Gilmore Girls, it's leaving the house through a closed window that you can pay for".

The Plain Ol' DVR is not from a computer company, but the long-experienced consumer electronics company that made the first LaserDisc machines. It just works, was working 5 minutes out of the box, and won't crash on her though it be a fairly sophisticated computer.

And frankly, I'm kind of glad to be talked into it as well. Upstairs, I geek out to my heart's content on a Linux box. Downstairs, watching TV, I'm generally beat, have a drink or so and supper inside me, and Just Want to Watch TV. Any technicalities deeper than picking my show off the playlist are unwelcome.

This box meets the 80/20 rule. Anything that can do "chasing playback", skip ads, avoids fussing with tapes, and can make a DVD of those few shows I want to save, meets at least 80% of what you want from the experience.

Setting it to catch all the shows we watch regularly took me about an hour. I guess another half hour per year will be needed to stop the recordings at the end of each season and start them again, often at new times, each fall. Avoiding that half-hour per year is not worth hundreds of dollars, and it ABSOLUTELY isn't worth managing another household computer through upgrades and patches and crashes.

Re:I shopped hard and then went with KISS

[Dammital]

"And all the solutions that are really a Linux or Windows PC in a smaller box had the same problem: they crash."

Could you expand on this a little more? My perception (from scanning the MythTV mailing list) was that Myth could be complex to set up, but that it was pretty stable after you were done. Maybe you just didn't have the patience to dink with it?

More on-topic: there is a lucid comparison between Tivo and MythTV on the Myth mailing list here.

Re:I shopped hard and then went with KISS

[falser]

TiVO might have won if they would just friggin' provide TV guide service to Canada, but they won't.

That's why you get a Series 1 Tivo and hack it.

Re:I shopped hard and then went with KISS

[demon411]

nah mythtv is better, use that. it's not that difficult to setup and is pretty straightfoward idea, record shows and watch them

Re:I shopped hard and then went with KISS

[rbrander]

Heh...I like the implied comment in the question: "didn't have the patience to dink with it"...as in, patience is a virtue, and lack of same is a fault.

It's not a fault to want something to just plug in and go after you spend a lot of money on it.

I 'dink with' a Linux box most evenings. I use MEPIS Linux, among the most plug-and-play distros ever developed. And the new version recently cost me most of a weekend with tedious, stupid stuff like not working with my new DVD writer and not being able to record audio because the ALSA controls are a whole separate level from the KMIX controls and they BOTH have to have "line' turned on.

And I am morally CERTAIN that setting up a MythTV box is the same deal, squared and cubed. The commentary from MythTV fans, both on the web and at the Calgary Unix Users Group that I chair, is clear on that point. It only "just goes" if you have just the right hardware and the Gods smile that day.

As for Linux never crashing, I don't mean full-blown BSOD; it just has to lock up for a few seconds to totally annoy most people. Now then, kindly put "mythTV freeze" into google and peruse the first few links. Then try "freeze pioneer "DVR-520" ' and note that while there are pages with both terms in them, none involve the product locking up. Some DVD players have frozen just playing a disk - a disk that a different player might handle. But none of the consumer-electronics products freeze when playing from the hard drive.

Then don't get me started on my TV being useless for one weekend a year when I decide that it's time to upgrade my MythTV version...

Bottom line: I get all the geeking and dinking my soul needs from playing with my general-purpose computer. I really tear my hair out on that a lot. Despite being committed to good old solid "uncrashable" Linux. I don't need any more of it when I'm just trying to knock back a few, get into a state of mind where I'm incompetent to handle complexity, and....watch TV.

Re:I shopped hard and then went with KISS

[rbrander]

Oh, yeah, forgot one point. My parts list for the proposed MythTV box ran $1500 Cdn. The DVR was $750 . Half the price for, I repeat, 80% of the functionality.

Yes, yes, the two aren't comparable. The MythTV box would have had a top-end burner, a 200GB hard drive, the Hauppage 350 top-end video capture, and a $150 sound card that did 7.1 digital sound.

But honestly? I wouldn't have used most of that functionality except on "Star Wars" type heavy-sound movies. And it all would have been obsolete in 3 years when HDTV is mainstream.

So will the DVR be, but I'll only have spent half as much on it. In 3 years, MythTV will be much more stable and featureful, and a MythTV box that can digitize HDTV (if content controls even allow that) will probably be under $1500 - and I'll still have half that much unspent in the bank.

You may not miss your TiVo now, but...

[wcrowe]

I bought my first TiVo in 2000, when the company was only a year old. I was a charter member of the Cult of TiVo. But these days, I don't miss it.

You will in the future when Microsoft forces you to buy a new box or else.

Re:You may not miss your TiVo now, but...

[MSFanBoi]

Or else what?

Microsoft cannot make anyone buy anything.

You don't like the way MS is headed with MCE? Don't use it.

I would have figured that was simple...

Re:You may not miss your TiVo now, but...

[wcrowe]

You missed my point. Once you are dependent on an MCE box, Microsoft can disable your system the minute you modify it or upgrade it or whatever, just like they can now with XP.

They already have a de facto monopoly in computers, so we need to give them a de facto monopoly in television too?

Not quite true

[kirk444]

That's not quite correct, at least not in Dish Networks case. You are free to record any Pay-Per-View event you choose to purchase on your Dish Network DVR, just as you would any other program. And you only pay for the original viewing, you can watch the recording as often as you like.

HD over FireWire

[dunc78]

As another responder has said, you can record HD content via a FireWire connection to a cable box. I have a Motorola DCT-6200 with a FireWire port which pipes the broadcast HD channels (ABC/CBS/NBC/Fox) out of the FireWire port unencrypted. And from my understanding, the cable company is not allowed to encrypt those channels. The other HD channels that my cable company provides (HBO/Cinemax/Showtime/ESPN) as well as all of the digital stations are encrypted and cannot be recorded via the FireWire port. The analog stations (2-99) are also MPEG encoded by the cable box and sent out of the FireWire port unencrypted.

Re:HD over FireWire

[degotas]

I remember reading somewhere on slashdot some posted a detailed link on how new hd/digital cable boxes/dvr must (FCC regs) allow users to record content of digital cable/HD via firewire. New cable boxes will have firewire ports. Currently the only vendor that suppports this is apple. One how to is here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?thre adid=386740/ And this is WITHOUT a tv tuner in the mac. Scheduling courtesy of ical.

Re:HD over FireWire

[dunc78]

Recording over FireWire can definitely be done with Windows and I believe can be done with Linux. And this is without a TV tuner in the PC of course, because the cable box is the tuner.

fugetaboutit....

[Ryan C.]

You won't be able to transfer those shows.

There's a little thing called 5C or HDCP protection that flags shows as "copy once", "copy never", or "copy always". Unless the show is "copy always", the set top box will refuse to unencrypt the show for your Mac. It will only send them to an "approved" recording device like a HD-DVR that will them store them as "copy never". Think there will ever be an "approved" recording program or card for a PC/Mac? Nope. Never.

The only channels that are usually copy always are the "must carry" over the air networks like ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, etc. INHD will probably be "copy once" in your area (it is in my area).

5C is similar in function to the broadcast flag. You're getting a sneak preview of what the broadcast flag will mean.

The broadcast flag is slightly different in that it involves the FCC. But the 5C racket already has the US government providing muscle with the DCMA (illegal to circumvent the encryption).

Re:fugetaboutit....

[adpowers]

So wait... can you explain this some more? The video is sent over Firewire with 5C/HDCP encoding that prevents it from being saved? The Firewire output was designed to connect to TVs, so how does the TV display it (or do all TVs with Firewire have this?)? I'll try it and see what happens. If true, that'll really piss me off, I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to save shows for as long as I want (on another machine with more space).

UltimateTV

[Is0m0rph]

I have non-HD DirecTV and don't see myself ever giving up my old UltimateTV boxes that you can get off Ebay for $20-$30 now. Dual Tuner, reaction time rewind after fast forwarding, recordable buffer, 30 second forward skip, 10 second reverse skip, watch 1 recorded show while recording 2 others simultaneously. It does all that. Easily upgradeable to put whatever size hard drive you want in it too. The service is $10 a month but I have them on 4 TVs in the house.

Re:30 skip is "hidden" Re:Motorola 6xxx HDDVR is b

[hackstraw]

These hacks do not work with my particular model/firmware/remote or whatever. Believe me I tried.

TiVO is Doomed no matter what that article says

[TheDoctorWho]

TiVo will have it's niche, but it's just about to lose every DirectTV customer. All those 'great' TiVo features are now found on the DirectTV DVR, of which you can choose Tivo or DirectTV as your Guide Provider, the difference being TiVo can cost $12.95/month, DirectTV $4.95/month. Tivo currently has it's TiVO to Go Package, but DirectTV will be out with a whole new line up, WIRELESS at that, by the end of 2005. So transfers to your PC will be just as easy. I don't see the market growing much for TiVO anymore, they came, they started, but the COmpetition is catching up and at cheaper prices with just as many features. The article itself was kind of dated in that aspect. 3 out of 5 in useful information.

Re:TiVO is Doomed no matter what that article says

[rhavyn]

But, as of right now, the DirecTV DVR is a Tivo. Are you sure the new ones won't also be based on the Tivo platform?

Re:TiVO is Doomed no matter what that article says

[petsounds]

Tivo has a patent on their Season Pass feature, which is to me the feature that sets them apart from every other generic DVR. It allows you to easily set up the Tivo to record episodes of shows you specify, and does a great job of making sure there's no conflicts between different show schedules, as well as not recording repeat episodes. So unless they license the technology from Tivo, I'm not sure how that feature will be on the DirecTV DVR. It will just be another generic DVR. Which is frustrating to me because I'm a DirecTV subscriber and I don't want to lose Tivo support (and no way in hell am I going back to cable).

They also forgot the anonyance factor

[Anonymous Coward]

Directivo hd downloads ads and places them in your tivo menu and as well as spy on your remote control click stream. Because you know spending $1000 on a pvr that forces ads into its interface and spying on your viewing habit is something the consumers are looking for. Can't wait to go home and see what 3 minute ad my tivo has downloaded today.

Whoa, put down the crack pipe dude.

[silicon not in the v]

I got a good laugh out of this dose of fanboyism from his "review".

(about TiVo)What's really cool is that, for a given channel, you can scroll both forward into the future [...] and into the past

MCE's guide doesn't look into the past, but it works just fine when looking at the future. MCE also offers [ unrelated features to distract from this shortcoming]

So then his conclusion at the end:

Bottom line? Feature for feature, Windows XP Media Center Edition matches TiVo and even exceeds it in some measures.

Add to that his earlier comment about the recordable buffer TiVo has, "MCE keeps a similar buffer but doesn't allow you to save it." So the new definition of "matches and even exceeds" for all features apparently now means that some features match, some are missing, and some are extra. So I wonder if those MCE systems are just on loan from MS or if they were part of his compen$ation package.

What the Frak is this Moron Going on About??

[TheDoctorWho]

From the article:
"Multiple tuners. Again, TiVo gives you one tuner per box, unless you're willing to pony up for the pricey DirecTiVo solution."

My DirectTVTivo Box has 2 Tuners, paid $99 for it, for 70 hours of Programming, no extra costs at all. Just needed to run a co-axial like from the Dish.

Moronic indeed.

Re:What the Frak is this Moron Going on About??

[boy_afraid]

If you were a REAL geek you would say "FRELL"!

Re:What the Frak is this Moron Going on About??

[/dev/trash]

$100 for an extra tuner? $20 would be reasonable.

DirecTiVo HD

[Snommis]

I recently went HD, and bought a DirecTv TiVo HD box (HR10-250) for $1000. I had always used ReplayTV prior, but Replay has no HD box. (I even e-mailed the company to see when they will have one. They said, in essence, "no time soon".)
Frankly, after using the ReplayTV for so long, I guess I got spoiled, because I HATE my TiVo! Extremely slow guide (actually comes up in chunks), no 30 second skip (gonna try the hack from the article tonight, though), and why can I only pause for 30 minutes? I used to pause my Replay at the beginning of a hockey game (not that I have that to worry about this year) and come back an hour later to start watching. Skip all the commercials and intermissions and still return to live with about 5 minutes left in the game. I could go on about no networking capability, ect. but you get my point.
Overall, the Tivo feels "Fisher Price" compared to the Replay. The menus look candy coated and dumbed down for the masses, and I really miss the pause countdown timer from my Replay. I hope like hell that Marantz (I think) realizes what they bought and runs with it! I'd ditch TiVo in a second.

Re:DirecTiVo HD

[Anonymous Coward]

I also have the HD Tivo, and while I haven't owned a replay, there are some easy solutions to your problems:

1) The default DirecTV guide is slow. So, don't use it! You have the option to switch over to the classic Tivo style guide, which is much faster. When the program guide is up, click enter, and you can select the display mode.

2) You must be pausing on live TV - remember, the live TV buffer is only 30 minutes. All you have to do is hit the record button (so Tivo knows you want to save) and then pause as long as you want to.

For me, the fact that it's an HD unit (which Replay doesn't have), you have two tuners (record two HD programs at once), AND and dual built in over-the-air HD tuners (so you can receive all local HD broadcasts) more than outweigh some of these cons.

Yes, it costs $1000. But you're getting a large amount of storage, the cost of the Tivo service is 5 bucks a month, and you're getting the the dual OTA HD Tuners - when a single one would cost you around $250 at big box stores. Most early HDTV adopters don't have built in HDTV tuners.

Not that everything is perfect. My gripes:

1) On my series 1 tivo, the program would automatically advance just before each half hour. (e.g. at 9:55 it would automatically show the 10:00 program schedule.) On the HD unit, it doesn't advance until it's actually 10:00. And, if I bump it forward manually and select a channel, it tries to record instead of just changing the channel for me. Annoying.

2) DirecTV hasn't released any of the cool Series 2 features, like remote scheduling and multi-room viewing, and TivoToGo, even though the hardware can support it.

Yes, I know that a HTPC can do a lot of these things too, and sometimes better. But I just want to watch TV when I want to watch TV. Not boot/reboot, configure, etc. TV is what I do when I'm tired of 'effing with my computer.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Without dual tuner, TiVo is worthless

[skoda]

I had Time-Warner digital cable and the (regular def) Scientific Atlanta DVR for a year or so. While shackled by mediocre software, its dual tuner made it far more powerful and useful than any TiVo. I've since dropped my cable subscription, and hobble by with my VCR.

The essence of the DVR, for me, was being able to record one show while having live-TV control on a different channel. Or, recording two shows simultaneously and watching a third previously recorded program.

TiVo, with a single tuner, does not justify a lofty $400 pricetag (unit and subscription). If it was $100 and no subscription, I'd buy. Or, $400 for a dual tuner unit would get my cash.

Instead, I'll wait, save up, and get digital cable, HD service, and a dual-tuner HD-DVR. I will suffer bad software to get the functionality I need.

Or, now that I know that Win MCE is so useful, and can support dual tuners, I might get that.

TiVo is out-dated and will be dead soon if it doesn't get with the times.

Life

[Quiet_Desperation]

Yep, MCE does this too. In fact, every such event is also captured in the Windows Event Log, so you can dump it to a text file or a spreadsheet for further analysis.

Yeah, but if I start doing this, I need to seriously analyze my life and how I'm spending it.

Can Myth do this?

[SoulMaster]

I posted this on the forum of the original article, not asking about Myth, I figured /.ers would have a better take on Myth.

The most important missing feature:

The problem is when the Networks get creative with thier scheduleing and set a show to end @ say 9:02pm for LOST last night... All of the systems show that as an overlap and won't record any show that starts @ 9pm (like Idol, or West Wing). This is the feature I would really like to see happen.

It seems simple enough to allow the slight overlap (settable to X minutes) of programs, where the higher priority show records the whole show, and the you miss the first or last 2 mins of the lower priority show. Personally, I don't care if I miss the first 2 mins of Idol to catch the last 2 mins of Lost.

Can MythTV do this? I have a Tivo (s2) and an MCE laptop and niether of them can. Haven't built a Myth box yet.

Re:Can Myth do this?

[ericdeal]

Yes.. It really annoyed me when I set up my Tivo (Series 2) to tape two shows that abutted and had them set to tape an additional 1 minute early/late. Tivo simply didn't tape the 2nd show because of the overlap.

MythTV handles this like it should by realizing that the "overlap" minutes are not required, so it simply switches channels at the hour and skips the additional time.

I build my MythTV box over Christmas vacation and LOVE it... Now I just need to decide whether to buy an HDTV card before the July 1 broadcast flag deadline :(

My stance on XP MCE

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

Windows XP Media Center 2005 is, in my opinion, the best PVR software available today.

I have two DirecTV DVRs which I use on a regular basis, so it's not like I'm a Microsoft zealot.

However, MCE is better in a number of notable ways:

- Speed. Even my Series2 DVRs are ploddingly slow. Bringing up "Now Playing" takes 10 seconds or more.

- FF / RW. I don't use fast-forward much on my MCE box. The 30-second skip isn't just conveinent, it's also "instant". Even the hacked 30-second skip on the TiVo has a 1/2 second delay that makes repeated use difficult. On the MCE box, I can blast through a commercial break extremely quickly - and if I overshoot the mark, the 7-second replay function is equally fast. On the TiVo, the delay in both functions makes this impossible - so I resort to traditional fast-forward.

- Conflict management. TiVo's conflict resolution interface sucks. It asks a question with a huge screen of text and gives me two choices which are ambiguous. MCE tells me that there is a a conflict, and asks me which shows to record (I can record 2 of 3 because I have a dual-tuner box). Moreover, it tells me if - and when - there are future showings of a program. This lets me decide whether to cancel a recording - if it replays two hours later, it's an easy choice.

- MCE handles failure well. If a recording is interrupted, it starts recording as soon as power is restored. Moreover, it will record the complete program automatically if there is another showing.

- MCE softpads. I get three minutes before every program and five minutes after, unless something else is scheduled to record. You never need to worry about missing the first or last minute of your show because the schedule is slightly off. On TiVo, you can pad, but it creates conflicts if there is a show in the next (or previous) timeslot.

- MCE has a better recording history. It doesn't just tell me what happened to a program, it tells me who did it and when. Everyone has different accounts, so there's no getting away with deleting my programs or cancelling my recordings.

- MCE has a better interface. It not only looks better, but most screens have the video as a PIP in the corner, so I can schedule recordings or do other things while watching my program. It also has a real back button, so if I make a mistake, I can get right back to where I was. TiVo's left button does different things at different places in the interface. Recording settings are also more easily changed in MCE. Even the OSD is less intrusive in MCE.

- MCE lets me play shows on my notebook or other computer. My DirecTV TiVos don't let me do this.

- MCE lets me add storage easily. I can use a FireWire or SATA drive. I don't have to muck with opening the case, "blessing" the drive, and potentially modding the OS (on DirecTV units like mine) to use HDDs with more than 137GB. I can even archive shows to a network share easily.

MCE is a really solid PVR solution. Don't sell it short because it comes from Microsoft. If you want to dislike it because it only works on Windows, or because it requires a PC, or because it comes from Microsoft, that's fine. But don't tell me it's not a good PVR. It is.

Oh, and to all of you who say that MCE is poor because it requires an expensive PC: that's OK, but don't turn around and tell me how great the Mac Mini would be as a media box. The Mini requires at least $300 of hardware (tuner, remote, HDD, TV adaptor) to be as capable as an $800 Media Center PC.

Myth stuttering/crashing....

[King_TJ]

Well, I'll be the first to say I don't have all the answers for making a Myth box work well.

But one suggestion I commonly read about that seems to cure some of these issues is making sure the BIOS of the PC you're using for Myth has all the ACPI Power Management stuff disabled. When you enable that newer method of power management, one thing it does is tells the BIOS to manage all of the IRQs itself. It allows IRQ sharing to prevent problems with running out of "free IRQs" and subsequent errors. Problem is, when the BIOS elects to do such things as say, share IRQ5 with both your sound card and TV tuner board, it doesn't take into account apps like Myth constantly dumping loads of data to both devices simultaneously. It makes the incorrect assumption that it can successfully "share" that IRQ between the two resources because they won't *both* be transferring constant streams of information.

This same technique (disable the advanced power management functions) is often used by people making hard disk recorders out of their PCs for studio use, too. Same problem... They want the lowest possible latency for MIDI and recording, and IRQ sharing interferes with it. (In the case of an OS like Windows 2000 or XP, you have to go so far as to make sure the BIOS features are disabled *before* you initially install the OS, too. Otherwise, it may see those capabilities and automatically install itself so it keeps using them/enabling them even when you disable them in the BIOS after the fact!)

Re:Guidelines for setup without phone line...

[Dop]

I tried that actually. I'm not sure it works with the DirectTV TiVO (model R10). My menus don't even include networking as an option like other TiVos I've seen.

Other thoughts

[broKenfoLd]

One thing not mentioned in that write up is that if you want the Media Center PC, you will pay about 5-10 times what you pay for a Tivo box. Granted, there is no monthly subscription associated with Media Center usage, but the intial cost of the PC to run it along with enough storage to make it worthwhile, combined with the ease of interface and setup of a Tivo, the Tivo seems to be the choice I'll be telling my friends, family, and coworkers about.

Additionally, Tivo has a very select user base they are marketing to and creating new features for. I think they will be working harder on adding new features(ala Tivo-to-go, Home media option) than Microsoft will be on improving Media Center options.

For the price of a Tivo, the current features, and the potential of newly developed features, Tivo is unbeatable.

Defiantely

[Nik13]

You do have a point. The astellite PVRs don't do analog captures like their counterparts (tivo, replaytv, mce, mythtv, ...) and it makes a HUGE difference in quality (DVB is the only other way I'd consider).

And as far as PC solutions go, it's just too much of a PITA to setup everything. Assemble PC, isntall OS, tons of software, config everything, mess with driver and other issues, try to get TV guide somewhat working, setup remote control for every app manually, then it's the IR blaster, ... The list of things to do is like endless. Takes too much time to setup everything, and it's just too easy for something to go wrong (a codec problem, driver problem, ... anything). The only real gain IMHO is DVD burning which I wouldn't even consider given the quality of analog captures. You also get to upgrade it (windows update or whatever) all the time, and hope it doesn't crash during a show. And if you want something that looks nice (D-Vine case or similar) , quiet, good quality and decently fast, it will cost you.

Tivo and such devices (and a lot of PC software) seem too oriented toward analog cable and similar low quality setups. Plus you get monthly fees for guide.

My sat PVR worked out of the box - recording in 100% quality (digital capture of the mpeg2 transportstream straight to HD), remote control, TV guide and all. Nothing to assemble, install, configure, ... It was about 50$ more than a capture card would have cost me; cheaper than a tivo too, and no monthly fees. (my sat pvr doesn't support HD, as none of the channels I watch are available in HD and my projector doesn't go above SVGA, so it would be pointless)

And for everything else there's the HTPC, but it's just never going to be used as a PVR.

DirecTV about to release a media server

[Anonymous Coward]

DirecTV is getting ready to do a major upgrade in order to accomodate MPEG-4 compression and increases in high-definition content. From the discussions at AVS Forum and DBS Talk it appears that DirecTV will be replacing hardware (including combination DirecTV / TiVo units, both standard and high definition varities) with a client/server based wireless Home Media Center system which DirecTV announced at the Consumer Electronics Show. Preliminary specifications say the server will contain 4 DirecTV tuners and 2 over-the-air digital tuners. It will be able to record 4 programs simultaneously. Wireless client systems at remote TVs in the house will be able to set up recordings and pull live and recorded programming from the server. The company providing the hardware looks to be Ucentric Systems which was recently acquired by Motorola. According to the information from DirecTV, the rollout is slated to begin in the second half of 2005. Interesting times ahead for owners of DirecTV / TiVo units.

I wonder how hackable these units will be and if DirecTV will look the other way like TiVo has. Somehow I doubt it.

Tivo vs MCE

[chrnbg]

I have a series 1 tivo, and a series 2 tivo and MCE.... I find that MCE is nice but is significantly of lesser recording quality and lesser realtime viewing quality than Tivo... anyone else have similar experience.

Such a limited scope

[TodPunk]

Why is there no mention of the additions that using a PC for this sort of thing can bring? I setup a MythTV box not just so i could record DRM free TV captures, and organize my DVD collection on a hard drive. I built the thing because I can use it as a dozen other things. I can dual-boot into Windows and play games on it. I can check my email and browse the web. I can share the media on this machine to my entire network so I can watch an already recorded show on my comp while my wife watches something on LiveTV. Seriously, for the same cost as a Tivo subscription after a year, I have 10 times the flexibility and performance, in a nice customizable package. Where the heck are the drawbacks in this? MythTV/Freevo (or heck, MCE) is WAY more flexible than Tivo or any other PVR.

Re:Guidelines for setup without phone line...

[gblues]

DirecTV DVRs ship with the USB ports disabled. Nice idea, though.

Nathan