Slashdot Mirror
Hobbit Is A New Species
Migraineman writes "Over the last year or so, archaeologists in Indonesia unearthed skulls and bones from eight proto-humanoids. Critics have claimed the meter-tall specimens were either pygmies or "aberrant individuals with a pathological condition" like microcephaly. A recent article in Science[subscription] rebuffs the critics, and claims that the specimens are actually a new species - Homo floresiensis. There's a summary article over at Nature."
Frodo died???
Could this be the infamous missing link?
Homo Florescent lights?
They should be called Homo Hobbitus... duh.
And I always pictured The Shire in England somewhere...
Free as in speech, free as in beer, or free as in lunch?
They tried, but failed to scour the shire.
I wonder if they found anything buried in its pocketses.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
the island of flores saw the amazing uptick in tourism that new zealand experienced after the lord of the rings movie trilogy, and so that island's tourism proponents decided that they could get in on the tolkien tourism bandwagon too
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I for one welcome our new Hobbit-humaniod overl... Oh nevermind.
Scientific American
(I didn't have to subscribe, YMMV.)
This tagline brought to you by 1500 monkeys in just under 17 years.
Scientific name: Bilbous Bagginsis
Common name: Tricksy Hobbitses
But did they find the ring?
Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
I truly believe these little people are the early prototype of ancient time traveling alien/human hybrid race. These people are the result of an extra-terrestial alien race mating with primates. The aliens have left but they will be back to check on our progress.
Living examples of this species were discovered in 1970 in New Guinea and named the Tropi. There was a whole court case about it, whether the Tropi were human or not.
You might be right...
Nope. This is a new development on an older story (specifically, the story you read in the paper a few months ago).
Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
how come such discoveries are often made when topics related to them are hot?
i'm not saying this is a fraud, but the tiling is suspicious... perhaps someone seeking his 5 minutes of fame?
The whole idea of a missing link is a sham. It's a straw man put up by creationists. Because of the way evolution works you won't ever find a completely smooth transition from one form to another, you observe a puntuated equilibrium in the fossil record.
I read a related article at Scientific American.com, (found linked from a Slashbox, no less) about an hour ago, and wondered, "Why haven't I seen this on Slashdot referencing Hobbits yet?" I guess I was just a bit ahead of the curve. :-)
Let me know if you have an open postdoc position. -braney
Just think... once, in a strange land millions of years ago, beings much like us looked up and dreamed that someday, somehow, they would reach the treetops.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
And they laughed at me for saying that Middle Earth didn't exist.... soon any day now they will find Orc fossils and roaving bands of Uruk-hai will crush the bones of obese Americans...
Dammit get those pills and that straight jacket away from me!!!
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
But what, then, happened to all the elves?
Continental drift. The undying lands ended up at the north pole.
Discovery of the Preciousess!
They are not a new species! They were an old species of dinosaur toe cheese.
Actually, what was announced yesterday (by members of some team) was the results of a computer reconstruction of the brain, which analyzed impressions left on the inside of the skull by the pulsating brain- indicating a more powerful brain (for the size) than previously thought possible. (From today's LA Times: Data Bolster Claim of a 'Hobbit' Human Species
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
National Geographic from a while ago.
was also mentioned on slashdot at the time.
liqbase
The One Ring was destroyed in Mount Doom, leaving the door open for a new cycle of books with a new ring forged in Mount Half-Life.
He'll never outgrow old Bullroarer Took!
There are 2 types of people in the world, those who find that stupid binary joke funny, and those who don't.
(I didn't have to subscribe, YMMV.)
My mileage did vary: "A Digital subscription is only $39.95!"
...then it will all make sense.
TFA didn't have it, but there's an artist's rendering of this species here (from http://www.mi.uib.no/~respl/tolkien/mapdocs/index2 .html)
for those interested there's also an article about homo florensis at Bits of News
Bits of News Giving you the latest bits.
it makes you look like unscientific amateurs.
Thank you for actually referencing primary sources, and not some university or coporate PR generated press release!
I did an "I'm feeling lucky" Google search to find Tropi.
Woo-hoo!
This tagline brought to you by 1500 monkeys in just under 17 years.
The LoTR planting fake skeletons for gullible scientists to "discover" is the best movie marketing ploy since Mr. Arthur C. Clarke staging of a moon landing to sell his book "2001 a Space Oddyssey." But, I guess all of the people wanting a "scientific" explanation of this 6000 year old creation will fall for any marketing ploy planted by the Godless Left.
/. regularly.
PS: Hobbits are fantasy. Trolls, however are real. we post on
This is, in fact, the missing link
They have nimble little fingers and an affinity for small watercraft, they do, plus they hunts tasty Dodo birds and wrings their little neckses ...
Considering the subject even more deeply reveals the creationist obsession with "transitional forms" as a complete (perhaps deliberate?) misunderstanding of evolution in general.
Everything is a "transitional form."
Seems Gollum got to him after all.
I wish i had mod points right now.
Homo Hobbitus
they dig up these bones and have an idea what they once looked like based on skelital remains, but any more than that is pure speculation and theory...
No. Bones tell you a lot. You can see things such as internal bone structure and points of tendon attachments which tells you about musculature. Many bones reveal a lot of detail about the flesh that was around them. The skull shows detail of the brain organisation within it, and this is particularly relevant to this new species. Looking back over hominid fossils, it is possible to follow brain evolution.
Talk about setting up a thread for a million bad LOTR jokes.
Could this episode seal the fate of Slashdot the Series? That's ok, I'll be downloading this seasons stories from a BitTorrent site. Oh, why bother this story will run again next week... :P
"Give me taste, give me funk, give me fury, gimme some more."
After all, scientists are never wrong about this sort of thing..
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Or, more correctly, lived.
Guess those '60s fanatics were right.
This brings to mind the origins of D&D... IIRC they tried to include Hobbits as one of the character races, but the Tolkien estate wouldn't hear of it. Thus, D&D has Halflings, which are virtually identical to Tolkien's Hobbits.
Seems like they changed this in 3rd edition though, Halflings now seem a lot more like Kender from Dragonlance.
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
they discovered what happened to the Oompa Loompas after Willy Wonka was done with them and Charlie took over the Chocolate Factory. Apparently Charlie tried to hide the bodies, but they were eventually found.
Charley Bucket was quoted as saying "I got tired of hearing the same songs sung day after day, so I got rid of them." Apparently Charley was still taking advice from his Grampa Joe who is known as a very shady character.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
The biggest argument here is whether they are midgets, retards, or retarded midgets.
But does it run linux?
In the case of Flores Man, these remains weren't even fossilized yet, but the principle is the same.
It truly amazes me how people will pontificate so grandly on a subject which they so obviously hold so little understanding in. They really do not understand the methodologies and techniques that scientists employ.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Frodo Lives! err... Lived!
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
...when The Wizard of Oz was big, all the stupid "hobbit" references would have been "munchkin."
Main Entry: humanoid
Pronunciation: 'hyü-m&-"noid, 'yü-
Function: adjective
: having human form or characteristics [humanoid dentition] [humanoid robots] --humanoid noun
There's nothing proto-humanoid about homo floresienis. Proto-human perhaps, if you consider everything pre-sapiens human.
So, how do we decide that those little skeletons were a different species? Is it based on ``They were too ugly to ever get laid.'', or what?
That's a semi-serious question, actually. I can believe that the smilodon couldn't interbreed with the Bos Primigenius, but how can we be sure those little hominids were not capable of interbreeding with us?
See what I've been reading.
Homo? That explains Merry and Pippen. Wait...nothing could possibly explain Merry and Pippen.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
PopSci had this article 3 weeks ago.
There is no evidence that they were gay. Or even mildy flamboyant for that matter.
If you read The Simmarillion, you would know that the story of Atlantis and it's fall is really about Numenor and it's distruction.
- A few ordinary pygmies and a microcephalic,
- An extraordinary group of Homo sapiens,
- Descendants of Indonesian Homo erectus, or
- Something completely different.
Carl concludes that these new results make 3 or 4 most likely, explaining why "explanations 3 and 4 seem to come out strongest at the moment. Either one would mean that the Hobbit represents an amazing experiment in hominid brain evolution. They suggest that some human-like features emerged in hominids that were separated from us by two or maybe three million years of evolution. Yet their brains were mosaics, sharing features with us and with other hominids, and also had features of their own. These strange brains, Dr. Morwood argues, allowed Hobbits to do things some pretty elaborate things, such as butcher dwarf elephants or make fires. It would be wonderful to know how these strange brains were wired together, but we have to be content with their shadows. But even shadows can sometimes reveal a lot."For anyone interested in Hominid species, here is a list and description of 20 main hominids, here are sample fossils for these species, and data on trends in brain sizes by species.
And to hit the pause button on any creationist "there are no missing links" arguments, take a close look at the comparison of hominid skulls, from the very useful 29 Evidences for Macroevolution FAQ -- each evidence complete with examples, references, predictions, and falsifiability tests (the latter two necessary for a theory to be a scientific theory). A shaved and suited Homo erectus is *not* going to be mistaken for a modern Homo sapiens, not with that small brain and strange face (compare especially the forehead and canines, and that he actually uses his wisdom teeth. Ours are on the way out). But he'll obviously be human- upright, great walker, up to 6 feet tall, briefcase filled with stone tools and a fire-starter kit.
And because at least a few of these claims show up in Slashdot threads on biology, here is the Index of Creationist Claims -- CC0 through CC150 covers human evolution -- and the arguments even creationists say to stop using. If your creationist argument is in the index, how about countering the evidence in the index instead of just making the claim?
You'd probably be more believable if you could distinguish between archaeology and paleoanthropology.
Back in the 70s a "lost tribe", the Tasaday, were found in the Phillipines. All over the press and National Geographic. They turned out to be actors, a scam perpetrated by the Marcos administration for who knows what reason.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
thats what they want you to think
][
nt
At least enlighten yourself on what others believe. (Or does that go against your religion?)
The evidence for evolution is really overwhelming.
In the book Forbidden Archaeology just such a being was found during a mining expedition IIRC in a sealed cave devoid of air and when the air hit the form from the outside then it crumbled into dust.
I have the book in storage at the moment so can't review the exact sequence and situation but as I recall the small being seen by several individuals was very similar to what was just described in this article.
Maybe someone with the book can review and post the circumstances in better detail than my memory.
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
But what, then, happened to all the elves?
Continental drift. The undying lands ended up at the north pole.
OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR
Now Fëanor led the Noldor northward, because his first purpose was to follow Morgoth... But as the mind of Fëanor cooled and took counsel, he perceived overlate that all these great companies would never overcome the long leagues in the north, nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships... He resolved now therefore to persuade the Teleri, ever friends to the Noldor, to join with them... But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say...
Then Fëanor grew wrathful, for he still feared delay... [w]hen he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force. But the Teleri withstood him... Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships... at last the Teleri were overcome, and a great part of their mariners that dwelt in Alqualondë were wickedly slain...
Then the Noldor drew away their white ships and manned their oars as best they might, and rowed them north along the coast... and the sea rose in wrath aginst the slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned... Nonetheless the greater part of the Noldor escaped...
After they had marched for a great while in the unmeasured night, they came at length to the northern confines of the Guarded Realm, upon the borders of the empty waste of Araman which were mountainous and cold. There they beheld suddenly a dark figure standing high upon a rock... the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor...
Then many quailed; but Fëanor hardened his heart and said: 'We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep...' So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.The Noldor came at last far into the north of Arda; and they saw the first teeth of ice that floated in the sea, and knew that they were drawing nigh to the Helcaraxë... and there none yet had dared to tread save the Valar only and Ungoliant... Therefore Fëanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take... the Helcaraxë they deemed impassable, whereas the ships were too few... Therefore it came into the heart of Fëanor and his sons to seize all the ships and depart suddenly... and Fëanor slipped away secretly with all whom he deemed true to him, and went aboard, and put out to sea, and left Fingolfin in Araman...
But when they were landed, Maedhros the eldest of his sons, and on a time the friend of Fingon ere Morgoth's lies came between, spoke to Fëanor, saying: 'Now what ships and rowers will you spare to return, and whom shall they bear hither first? Fingon the valiant?'
Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved... Let the ships burn!' Then Maedhros alone stood aside, but Fëanor caused fire to be set to the white ships of the Teleri...
And Fingolfin and his people saw the light afar off, red beneath the clouds, and they knew that they were betrayed... and led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Finrod and Galadriel, they dared to pass into the bitterest North; and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxë and the cruel hills of ice...
You know carbon datings aren't always accurate....(to put it mildly)
...so in what part of Middle Earth was Indonesia 18,000 years ago?
Do you realize that true Islam does not condone terrorism?
I am not sure what your definition of "true Islam" is, but there are very strong writings in the Koran that specifically instruct Muslims to destroy Infidels.
I have been ordered to fight with the people until they say, none has the right to be worshiped but Allah (Hadith 4:196)
Strike terror (into the hearts of ) the enemies of Allah and your enemies (Sura 8:60)
I will instill terror into the hearts of unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not you who slay them, it is Allah (Sura 8:12, 17)
I do know there are many Muslims in the world that do not agree with terrorism or take these writings as literal,but many do. The idea that everything that has gone from the 9/11 attacks to now are not a religous war of Muslims vs. an Infidel nation is preposterous and false.
Find coupons in Greeley
I think everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs, my biggest annoyance with the whole Evolution vs. Creation argument is that there is no definitive way to prove it - at least not definitive enough for me.
But there is never a way to prove a scientific theory. All you can ever say is that it explains all your relevant data well. And Evolution meets this test.
What you can do with a scientific theory is to disprove it. Evolution can be disproved, but creationism can't.
And whatever happened to "stuff that matters"?
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
It was a COLONY OF MIDGETS! You've heard of midgets before, right? Little, waddly, squat bastards with big asses who teeter left and right while walking, grabbing things with their little mini-hotdog fingers.
THEY. WERE. MIDGETS.
ORDINARY. HUMAN. MIDGETS.
IN. AN. ISLAND. COLONY.
Stupid scientists!!
It must be!
Or is it in the abundance of non-evolutionary, i.e. Genetically Modified food that only the US sprouts these people.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Too bad they didn't leave behind any sort of record
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've been wondering how plant and animal breeding is not an example of macro-evolution.
t m Heike Crab which evolved a human face.
Wild strawberries are primarily for birds to eat and generally have a stronger and bitter taste compared to domesticated strawberries, their size is smaller concentrating the seeds on a smaller surface area. Only in the past 500 years or so have strawberries been domesticated to the way we now buy them in stores. Is this not an example of evolution? The plant has (been) adapted to prosper under different conditions.
I think in the strawberries case most of the intermediate plants were not kept, maybe records of them have been. But, if people don't keep their in-betweens why would nature? And I doubt that if you did search for in-betweens in this case it would be very easy to find them. Just like it being difficult to find fossils of plants and animals from even further back in time.
An interesting page that I read in the past which shows another and better written example is Carl Sagans' http://web.singnet.com.sg/~sctien/samurai_crabs.h
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
OK, I just have to ask because it's been bugging me for a while.
When I think of a range, I think of going to the range in the hills and blowing up old TVs, textbooks, clay pigeons etc.
I certainly wouldn't run out and pick up something we shot out there because there are other people out there, and they might not have noticed me.
So, is it a joke, like your dog would be tied up, hence even more disapointed. Or maybe he's so fast he can dodge bullets.
Or are there "bird dog" ranges where it works differently?
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~sctien/samurai_crabs.ht m
Has a bit of a story, but it's very interesting.
Assume a couple of years to get the cloning done, then it's eighteen years and nine months more before they're legal.
They shoulda named 'em Homo frodosiensis. That woulda rocked. Those hominid paleontologists have no imagination.
Or maybe this is not a completely similar article?
I got my revenge yet you bastard frodo: Old age is a bitch! Now gimmie back my forking ring. I'm old and cranky and you youngens just drive a old ass evil spirit crazy. Shit I had to to tell Sauraman what for, and the nazgul are still prity much my bitch from the last time I had a great Idea. so tbbb.
I believe I've seen and read information on the dig for this. It's my understanding that the locals claimed to have recent historical memory of interaction with the apparent remnants of these. This apparently included leaving food for them. Can anyone verify this?
m
"The notion of a hybrid species is nonsensical. Individuals are hybrids, not entire species. Individuals descend directly from individuals, and are thus always hybrids of those individuals, at least in sexual reproduction. Species don't descend from sexual pairing of other species. Species are merely groups of individuals that are similar enough to successfully breed."
Close but no cigar.
First off the notion of what a species is, that I have read here, is not quite right. It's not as simple as "things that will interbreed".
There are species whose populations (races, klines, what have you) will not interbreed and there are different species that will interbreed.
See _Rivulins of the Old World_, Col JJ Scheel, 1968, TFH press 1968 for all sorts of neat examples of these.
"But wait!" I hear you say, "if they interbreed then they're the same species". Well, no, that's not what a species is.
The concept of species is an artificial one invented by man to make some sense of flora and fauna. He wants to pidgeon-hole them, classify them in a taxonomy (not an ontology!) so they make sense to him. But it's pretty arbitrary.
What a species is, is what the guy who knows most about them say they are. Whacked, I know, but that's the way it works.
We look for all sort of things, merisitcs, phylogony, geography, karyotype differences, DNA analysis so on and so forth, then we make an judgement call about where one species ends and where another begins. And, keep in mind, this changes over time. Animals and plants change, sometimes in as little as 5 years (Romand, Raymond, pers. commms, viz Roloffia geryi).
Plus opinions vary. Some are "spltters" who will divide populations of a currently accepted "species" into a bunch of new species and "lumpers" will do the opposite. Some poor critters vascillate back and forth decade after decade based on who published last. The ICZN acts as the scorekeeper for animals (plants have an equivalent). They make sure the rules get followed but other than that don't referee as to what's what.
Now why is there so much difference of opinion on the way these taxa are viewed? Becuase there's no right answer of course. It's all how we look at things and how we choose to classify them and in the end consensus wins and inevitably there are those who disagree. And probably always will be.
As for species that are hybrid species I can't think of an animal off the top of my head but I can offer up Cryptocoryne x willisii as an example of a hybrid "species" (there are others). It's a cross of two known plants and we're reluctant to give it species status because it's so obvioulsy a hybrid - but it's common as dirt, grows like made and one way of looking at it is that it is a species. If I write it up as such... then it is! But we're content to view it as the way we do.
Don't get me started on sub-species, that's even more messed up as the delineation between "populations" and "subspecies" is that well agreed on by scientists. I like Bill Eschemeyers example: Atlantic and Pacific salmon are subspcies of the same fish - there's a natural geographic break. If they they were separated by only a few miles or tens of miles then they're populations, not subspecies.
Need Mercedes parts ?
"Do you realize that true Islam does not condone terrorism?"
Do you realize if everybody spent all their time downloading porn there would be no war?
Need Mercedes parts ?
I think this is where they count in "mutations" or "aberrations"
Certainly messed up genes could make something that was vastly different than its predecessors, but unless that something was able to reproduce and create like offspring I'd not consider it a new species (especially if it could reproduce and produce offspring of a like to its parentage).
War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
Dr. Teuku Jacob first called the skull a pygmy with microcephaly. Other scientists recently disagree with this study's conclusions: Source
Lets see now...
There was a single (!) ancient skull discovered. It was in less than perfect condition (the bones "had the consistency of 'wet blotting paper'" as one article puts it)
The study quoted in this article compared that single skull with a single (!) microcephalic skull. Source
The Wikipedia article indicates microcephaly can vary in effect: Source
This Answers in Genesis article points out pygmies (see picture) were exant in that general geographic region, while other articles (no links handy) reported of island legends of pygmy tribes in recent history.
In order for this study to conclusively disprove microcephaly, it would be useful to compare (a) multiple ancient skulls, (b) some in good, undistorted, condition, (c) with a realistic range of microcephalic skulls, (d) including pygmy microcephalic cases.
It seems that (a,b,c, and d) were not done.
This new article reports DNA was present in the bones, which have been sent for analysis. That should really help clarify this matter.
is the utter blasphemy of it: creationists are calling God a liar. The record of evolution written in the rocks is unambiguous: evolution happened, like it or not. To claim otherwise is to say that God's world is lying.