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BBC on DRM and Trusted Computing

distantbody writes "This BBC article by Bill Thompson is balanced and concise on the issues of DRM and 'Trusted Computing,' and offers some insights as to why such systems are the wrong path to follow for consumers and businesses alike. From the the article: 'We need to ensure that trusted computing remains under the control of the users and is not used to take away the freedoms we enjoy today ... the flexibility of copyright law is something that should be embraced and not taken away.'"

227 comments

  1. rms on treacherous computing by latroM · · Score: 5, Informative

    rms on the subject if someone hasn't read that yet.

    1. Re:rms on treacherous computing by Zeinfeld · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Those who quote RMS rarely know him.

      The sad thing about Trusted Computing is that copyright enforcement is probably the one security problem it does not provide significant leverage for. Copyright is break once run anywhere.

      I was at an SDMI conference, I could not find a single company interested in talking about the payment side of the problem.

      I have little sympathy for either side in the debate. I have no time for the freeloaders who want to get something for nothing and no time for the freeloaders who want to use their economic power to get something for next to nothing and sell it expensive.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    2. Re:rms on treacherous computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      The sad thing about Trusted Computing is that copyright enforcement is probably the one security problem it does not provide significant leverage for.

      At the most basic level there are two security problems:

      1. Bugs that can be taken advantage of. Trusted Computing isn't going to be bug free any more than anything else is.

      2. People. People who have rights to install software that can send emails or blank their hardrives or whatever. People who like getting 'I love you' emails. People who fall for persuasive conmen. Trusted Computing has nothing to do with this.

      How does it provide 'significant leverage' against security problems?

    3. Re:rms on treacherous computing by Mystic0 · · Score: 1

      Those who quote RMS rarely know him.

      I really don't see why this matters. People quote Jesus all the time, and I don't know anybody who knows him.

    4. Re:rms on treacherous computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps RMS could use DRM to advantage much as the GPL uses copyright to advantage by DRMing GPL code such that you can only use the code if you abide by the GPL. I know - no technical way to enforce it, just a wild idea.

    5. Re:rms on treacherous computing by AhBeeDoi · · Score: 1

      You evidently haven't watched any televangists.

    6. Re:rms on treacherous computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guys be warned. The folks who support and work on "Trusted"(I am not sure what Trust means there, trust who? for what ?) Computing doesnot take lightly to unfavorable comments.

    7. Re:rms on treacherous computing by technos · · Score: 1

      If all you know of great authors and thinkers is the quotable soundbites, you're missing most of the information they were attempting to convey.

      Take Nietzsche. Everyone here has heard the enduring sound bite "God is dead.".

      Now read the full text:
      Have you ever heard of the madman who on a bright morning lighted a lantern and ran to the market-place calling out unceasingly: "I seek God! I seek God!" As there were many people standing about who did not believe in God, he caused a great deal of amusement. Why? is he lost? said one. Has he strayed away like a child? said another. Or does he keep himself hidden? Is he afraid of us? Has he taken a sea voyage? Has he emigrated? - the people cried out laughingly, all in a hubbub.

      The insane man jumped into their midst and transfixed them with his glances. "Where is God gone?" he called out. "I mean to tell you! We have killed him, you and I! We are all his murderers! But how have we done it? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon? What did we do when we loosened this earth from its sun? Whither does it now move? Whither do we move? Away from all suns? Do we not dash on unceasingly? Backwards, sideways, forwards, in all directions? Is there still an above and below? Do we not stray, as through infinite nothingness? Does not empty space breathe upon us? Has it not become colder? Does not night come on continually, darker and darker? Shall we not have to light lanterns in the morning? Do we not hear the noise of the grave-diggers who are burying God? Do we not smell the divine putrefaction? - for even Gods putrify! God is dead! God remains dead! And we have killed him!

      How shall we console ourselves, the most murderous of all murderers? The holiest and the mightiest that the world has hitherto possessed, has bled to death under our knife - who will wipe the blood from us? With what water could we cleanse ourselves? What lustrums, what sacred games shall we have to devise? Is not the magnitude of this deed too great for us? Shall we not ourselves have to become Gods, merely to seem worthy of it? There never was a greater event - and on account of it, all who are born after us belong to a higher history than any history hitherto!" Here the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they also were silent and looked at him in surprise.

      Quite a different mental landscape is painted, isn't it?

      --
      .sig: Now legally binding!
    8. Re:rms on treacherous computing by northcat · · Score: 1

      You say that as if your opinion matters. We don't give a shit about what you think.

  2. Trusted System by Steward5732 · · Score: 1

    Quote "The efforts going into DRM would be much better spent building efficient distribution services, finding business models that are based on trusting your customers, and offering high quality downloads at fair prices. What we want is not so much a trusted computing platform as a trusted customer platform." "The record companies and the film industry need to recognise that most of us, most of the time, will pay a reasonable amount for good quality material" Customer will pay if it is good quality. However, there should be away they make illegal sharing out of the way.

    --
    Free Posting on thousands and hundreds cities in World Cities Community
    1. Re:Trusted System by yagu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ..., most of us, most of the time, will pay a reasonable amount for good quality material , ...

      Absolutely... as a matter of fact I think it's more than most, it's close to ALL. Human nature is to take the path of least resistance, and while some take to the challenge of stealing... most don't. So, while some in the past would make illegal copies and share "illegally" (downloading, etc.), the record companies' response by tightening the screws eventually I think will have an unintended effect. At some point the extra onus on the customer to "unlock", and jump through all of the drm hoops just to use something they already paid for and thought they were just going to sit down and enjoy will push them to their path of least resistance... e.g., not bother with buying cd's anymore, not bother with dvd's anymore, not bother with iTunes anymore...

      Instead they'll just use the radio, go to the movie theater, whatever. What a wasted amount of time and effort to "trust" we the consumers.

    2. Re:Trusted System by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not bother with iTunes? Hell iTunes, I DL, I burn, I re-rip as whatever format I prefer (mp3?) and the DRM is gone. Seems easy enough to me and that is not exactly too many hoops to jump through IMO. While I would prefer DRM-less iTunes, the record companies are not going to let that happen, so I will take the least restrictive of the DRM's available any day of the year

    3. Re:Trusted System by yagu · · Score: 1

      this is your perception of "hassle". I try to use the prism of what I consider to be a typical user. For example, the people I mentioned in my original post... that run the local grocery store... to them, DL, burn, re-rip, (not to mention re-entering lost tag info...) are more than too many hoops to jump through, they're too many hoops to understand. And, I believe their world-view of technology is more common than a typical /.'er.

    4. Re:Trusted System by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "programmers to find their way around these restrictions and give us back the fair use rights that should be guaranteed under copyright law."
      true

    5. Re:Trusted System by Yaro · · Score: 0
      as a matter of fact I think it's more than most, it's close to ALL. Human nature is to take the path of least resistance, and while some take to the challenge of stealing... most don't.


      You mean, like, my least resistance, rather than making me enter a search string in some p2p application, will lead me to go out to the music store and talk to some salepersons ? You're new here ain't you ?

    6. Re:Trusted System by Technician · · Score: 1

      Instead they'll just use the radio, go to the movie theater, whatever.

      Have you been to a theatre lately? Do you have a family? I can get a movie I didn't watch in the theater last year for much less than the price of tickets for the family. There isn't a better way to get a movie for a family of 4 than buy an under $10 DVD. Check the pre-viewed section at Blockbuster. I don't have to return it, and I can watch it again next year for free.
      Later I can still sell it and get most of my money back.

      I don't watch many movies in the theatre anymore. At home I can make my own popcorn. The money saved on popcorn for the family buys the movie.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    7. Re:Trusted System by yagu · · Score: 1
      admittedly "go to the theater" was a bad choice/example, especially under your examination (I had my own second thoughts after clicking "publish".... sigh).

      I stand by my thesis in any regard... don't underestimate the ability of the entertainment industry to introduce increasingly annoying, confusing, and eventually prohibitive (which will be by then too late) obstacles delaying and even sometimes preventing consumers the product they thought/assumed they'd paid for. (I've already posted about a CD I had recently purchased that would not play on my car CD player... and its replacement (exchange) from the store failed in exactly the same places in exactly the same ways.)

      I think ultimately the entertainment would do best for "itself" (just what IS that?) and its consumers by making nice.... A little trust goes a heck of a long way.

      (And, yes I've been to a movie theatre lately... admittedly I no longer have to spring for four, (only two now), and admittedly that still is a bit more expensive, but sometimes it is just nice to do that... especially with the increasingly poorly maintained dvd's we're seeing when we DO rent.... I don't know what most people experience, but anecdotally we've been seeing failure rates of dvd's bad enough to be unwatchable at about one out of every five (and don't blame our dvd player, it is brand new, and the other dvd players in the house are equally unable to play these dvd's). Granted our "provider" has ALWAYS graciously exchanged or refunded, but an evening ruined... and now we're getting WAY off topic...)

    8. Re:Trusted System by Technician · · Score: 1

      I stand by my thesis in any regard... don't underestimate the ability of the entertainment industry to introduce increasingly annoying, confusing, and eventually prohibitive (which will be by then too late) obstacles delaying and even sometimes preventing consumers the product they thought/assumed they'd paid for. (I've already posted about a CD I had recently purchased that would not play on my car CD player... and its replacement (exchange) from the store failed in exactly the same places in exactly the same ways.)



      The diffrence between a DVD and an I-tunes song, is I can sell the DVD when I'm done with it. It will work in someone elses player.

      The music industry has simply screwed up the system. If I buy a CD, it might not work in all my players. You discovered this. A defective music delivery medium does not increase the value of the contained music. In spite of this, music prices are higher than the price of movies (figured in $/minute). They music industry can't figure out why I don't buy music anymore. It's worth less than my existing collection on LP's and CD's (the real red book variety with the Compact Disk logo)

      admittedly I no longer have to spring for four, (only two now),

      I was there, but the wife got the empty nest syndorne. We now have foster kids. That's a little offtopic, but does directly influence the price of going to see a movie.

      increasingly poorly maintained dvd's we're seeing when we DO rent

      Hint.. Rent it.. If it's in good shape, then use the purchase option. You get the rental fee back and just pay the purchase. An unplayable DVD gets exchanged, then purchased. If it's playable but in poor shape, than I just return it.
      I've had much better luck with DVD's than with Videotapes which are almost always messed up at one spot or another. Most DVD's I buy are in New or Nearly New condition.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    9. Re:Trusted System by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is your perception of "hassle". I try to use the prism of what I consider to be a typical user. For example, the people I mentioned in my original post... that run the local grocery store... to them, DL, burn, re-rip, (not to mention re-entering lost tag info...) are more than too many hoops to jump through, they're too many hoops to understand. And, I believe their world-view of technology is more common than a typical /.'er.

      On the other hand, it only takes one motivated geek to automate or simplify the process enough for the non-tech savvy to use.

  3. DRM by Sv-Manowar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They are right about DRM, by limiting the amount of time a user can view the file, they are just increasing demand for a cracked one.

    If you had downloaded something, and it had DRM on it limiting the number of times you could view it or how long it could be viewed - it would just be a hassle, and would cause most people to either go looking or just wait for a unlocked version of it.

    1. Re:DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually no, in my case it would cause me not to puchase that "content" at all. This is why I don't buy DVD's or copy protected CD's and won't be buying TCPA enabled hardware either!

    2. Re:DRM by argent · · Score: 1

      They are right about DRM, by limiting the amount of time a user can view the file, they are just increasing demand for a cracked one.

      Back when I was usingthe Apple II, most of the stuff I was working with was source code, software I wrote myself, but there was one game I really wanted to play... Wizardry.

      Wizardry's copy protection was so strict and timing sensitive that if your floppy drive was a little bit out of alignment, you would get to the point where saving your game (on the master disk!) would lock you into ONLY using that floppy drive.

      When that drive failed, the only way I could get back in was to get one of the local "crackers" to write a cracked copy of Wizardry over my real, legal, licensed copy on the master disk.

    3. Re:DRM by argent · · Score: 1

      Actually no, in my case it would cause me not to puchase that "content" at all.

      That too. I did say Wizardry was the only commercial game I played... and they had me hooked before I knew about the problem.

  4. re-asking the question by yagu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Okay, so I've asked this before... I'll ask again... (refer to my previous post... )

    I had hoped for definitive answers to these questions, but if you'll re-read some of the responses to my post, while thoughtful, they were divergent and inconsistent among themselves. Again I am concerned what the "trusted computing" platform truly means... mostly because it appears to me it is mostly negative for the linux community.

    A scenario played out last summer for me with... a local Mom and Pop grocery store kept EVERYTHING on their Windows XP PC, and one day it went toes-up. They were understandably distraught -- all of their business spreadsheets and wedding pictures (over 1G) were on the hard drive and they couldn't get to them. They were prepping the machine to be sent in to be re-imaged. I asked them if they knew that meant they were likely to lose their data. She was almost in tears. I went home, got my Knoppix CD, and with their permission, played... and, recovered ALL of their data and burned it redundantly to CD's.

    So I ask, if theirs were a "trusted computing" machine, and I had tried to do the same thing for them with my Knoppix CD, would I have been able to? I'd hate to think this is one (of many) of the things we lose in this "better" world. Help!

    (I honestly can't believe the computing world will stand for this, but maybe it's like boiling frogs in water... by the time we realize what's happening it's too late?)

    1. Re:re-asking the question by Feztaa · · Score: 1

      Boiling frogs in water? I'd say it's more like lemmings marching off a cliff.

    2. Re:re-asking the question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      By that, I assume you mean entirely fictional?

    3. Re:re-asking the question by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Informative
      if theirs were a "trusted computing" machine, and I had tried to do the same thing for them with my Knoppix CD, would I have been able to?
      Absolutely NOT, and that's entirely the point.
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:re-asking the question by xiando · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "I honestly can't believe the computing world will stand for this" THE problem here is CHOICE. And if we find ourselves in a situation where there are laws who require computer makers to have a feature in order to sell it legally, then obviously they will obey and implement the feature in order to keep selling their products. The feature (or bug..) will soon be part of CPU units, and that, depending on implementation, will make a whole new scenario. The choices may soon be not upgrading or buying something with usage restrictions.

    5. Re:re-asking the question by nomellames · · Score: 1


      The answer is: Depends, but probably yes
      If the had used a key to encryp the data, and they have bounded this key to the current OS, no.

      If the had encrypted the data, yes, as TCG is an open standard. Linux can interact with the TPM too, and the way you do it is OS agnostic. As long as they are the owners and have the password, the data could have been retrieved

      Think about it. Was that a good thing? for them, yes. For other person, the fact that you were able to do that menas the information in the computer was not private at all.

      Trusted Computing is necessary, and is good, as long as the user has the last word on using it or not.

    6. Re:re-asking the question by lakeland · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Since we don't have trusted computing implemented yet, it is hard to say definitively. Given current chips, it is possible for the answer to be yes, and also possible for the answer to be no. Therefore in answering your question I am second-guessing how microsoft will set the defaults rather than what the chip can do.

      My guess as to the most likely scenario is that you will be able to boot knoppix. I just cannot imagine the amount of pressure the linux community brings to bear if this happens. The TC chip will however PROBABLY not permit knoppix to unlock the hard drive. So at this point you're kinda stuck. It is likely you'll get low-level access to the disk, but dumping encrypted data isn't of much use.

      It is possible the TC chip will trust knoppix once the user enters their password, in which case your recovery would go just fine. It is also possible there is a back door and if you send the encrypted partition to the NSA they will unlock it for you, though I doubt they'll offer the service even if it is possible.

    7. Re:re-asking the question by pentalive · · Score: 3, Informative
      Trusted Computing is necessary, and is good, as long as the user has the last word on using it or not.


      If the major reason for Trusted Computing is to protect Copyrighted Works, Then the final password will be in the hands of the copyright owner and not the end user.

      Remember they are trying to take over the computer so they can "trust" it, becuase they belive that they can't "trust" the end user.

    8. Re:re-asking the question by budgenator · · Score: 1

      he actualy refering to two things supposedly
      1. if you throw a live frog into boiling water, the frog instanly knows the water is too hot and immedaiately jumps out unharmed.
      2. throw a live frog into room-temperature water and heat it slowly to a boil, the frog nevers realizes the water is getting hoter until it's too late.

      I've never heard from anyone who I'd considered trustworthy if either case of the above works.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    9. Re:re-asking the question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just use a lid, sheesh.

    10. Re:re-asking the question by nomellames · · Score: 1
      >If the major reason for Trusted Computing is to >protect Copyrighted Works, Then the final >password will be in the hands of the copyright >owner and not the end user.
      But it is not. And how keys are stored in the TPM, the secure chip, is hierarchical. That means the owner can always retrieve all the keys. The owner, in personal computers, will be the platform user, as defined by the TCG

      The problem with TC and the trusted computing base is that people don't understand what really is. They prefer to complain without having a clue what are the facts
    11. Re:re-asking the question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real scientists use microwave ovens!

    12. Re:re-asking the question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And not upgrading may mean no longer being able to view new content.

    13. Re: re-asking the question by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You might want to check a rant I wrote ages ago (available in English and Dutch). With current knowledge, some of it doesn't make sense anymore, some of it holds even more water as time passes.

      Basically, you can view 'trusted computing' as (potentially) a strong enabler for systems integrity checking, user authentication, and yes, DRM. This may be have both good, and evil uses.

      It all comes down to whether it's optional, and who (ultimately) has the keys.

      Right now, it's optional. There's still plenty hardware out there that doesn't support it, support may be disabled in BIOS, and if I understand TC specs as they are, implementation details ARE in the open, and users HAVE final control over keys. For instance, Free/OSS could provide support, and use it in positive ways (like verifying server hardware/software).

      But I can't help feeling that 'treacherous computing' is just some marketing plot, intended to shove 'bad things' onto a public that doesn't see it coming. Or doesn't care, at first.

      We all know DRM doesn't work. You hand users some content, users have full control over their own equipment, and to decode the content, they HAVE to get the key(s), somehow. Keeping things locked up after that, just won't work. Maybe for niche applications or in controlled environments, but not for mass-market things like music, movies and such. The BBC article points that out nicely.

      Integrity checking of software/hardware, authentication of users? Nice, but you only need proper handling of the keys for that, and reliable working hardware/software. Read: stable running hardware, verified software. This whole TC thing just complicates both, and users remain the weakest link anyway.

      Maybe TC is really meant for public-friendly, positive uses, but a paranoid attitude is really needed here.

      I can see the future going 2 ways: TC will become commonplace, then hardware NOT supporting it will become obsolete, then the 'open, user controlled' will slowly be switched to 'closed, 3rd party controlled', and the masses will find their equipment isn't really theirs anymore.

      Or the masses will consider TC 'having a bad smell' (I know I will), and it will die in the marketplace. Vote with your dollars! No matter how evil, they can't shove it upon you if the masses don't take out their wallet. But then again, knowing how few people think clearly for themselves, and how many act more like 'sheeple', I'm not too sure which direction things will go. Maybe a market split, like you have between Windows and Free/OSS-based software these days.

      Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you...

    14. Re:re-asking the question by hal9000(jr) · · Score: 2, Informative
      It depends on what data is protected by the TPM and how.

      First of all, if the TPM is even enabled, but the data that you want to recover is NOT protected by the TPM in anyway (either through the application or the OS), then you can recover the files.

      If the application/OS that created or manipulated the files are using the TPM, then it MAY get a bit more tricky.

      Here is the quick and dirty:
      • The TPM manages keys and encrypts and/or signs small blobs of stuff--pretty much other keys. It is not a bulk encryptor.
      • The root of storage key is used to protect (encrypt) all other keys generated by the TPM. It is generated by the TPM in hardware and you can't export this key.
      • Other keys created by the TPM or by an application external to the TPM (but stored by teh TPM), can be flagged as exportable, which means they can be backed up (they will be in the (clear). The software that is requesting a new key, has to request it be exportable which means that feature is a software dependency.
      • You can recover the files (files are just blobs of bits, right?), the problem is that you can't decrypt them.
      • If the data is protected by an application that uses the TPM, and the key the appliation uses has been exported, then you can reinstall the operating system and software and import your keys back into the TPM. Then you can access your files..


      Here is an similar example. Let's say that I use PGP to protect some files and that my keyrings are backed up onto a CD. If my hard drive crashes for some reason, then I can't access my data normally. But I can recover the encrypted files and put them on a new computer. Then I can recover my backed-up pgp keys to decrypt the files.

      The major requirement is that the application, including the OS, must support the back-up of TPM protected keys.

      Anybody who tell you differnt that what I have said above is wrong. Now, go read the faq here.
    15. Re:re-asking the question by Truekaiser · · Score: 1

      "The answer is: Depends, but probably yes
      If the had used a key to encryp the data, and they have bounded this key to the current OS, no.

      If the had encrypted the data, yes, as TCG is an open standard. Linux can interact with the TPM too, and the way you do it is OS agnostic. As long as they are the owners and have the password, the data could have been retrieved "

      tcpa while open is hardly operating system agnostic.
      it is heavily biased in favor of those who have bundles of cash to have their operating systems marked 'trusted' with the hardware master key(needed to boot).
      considering that the current version of it requires at least the master key and optionally a certificate just for the operating system to boot, i highly doubt that the version of knoppix you would have would even have one of those. this will be the case because any company would be down right stupid not to charge for marking a operating system as trusted on their version of tcpa.
      while they might have a way around this for situations like this, for lets say a major corporation i also doubt you have the cash to pay for access of this circumvention.
      so to make a long explanation short. that mom and pop store would be sol because their data could not be accessed anymore.

      personally i would of looked at the owner of the machine and laughed if they asked for help on a system like that. mainly because they should of known they would be sol when the hardware fails in a system like that.

    16. Re:re-asking the question by gpw213 · · Score: 1
      The "trusted computing" platform mostly boils down to the fact that "they" (mostly the entertainment industries, plus some others) want to make sure that the program you are running to talk to them has not been modified. The was a discussion on /. the other day here about a fake iTunes client that would download songs and not encrypt them. This is exactly the sort of thing they wish to prevent.

      The problem is that if they want to be sure that the program is what it claims to be, they need to have the OS check that for them. But how do they know this OS hasn't been modified? The solution they have come up with starts with the hardware, which checks a digitial signature on the PROM before the BIOS is allowed to load. An approved BIOS can then check the signature of the OS to make sure it is an approved version, and the OS then checks the applications. It all traces back to encryption keys that are built into the hardware itself.

      When it comes to issues like booting linux, the people working on this will very quickly tell you that "of course you can". That is not, however, the whole truth.

      In a best-case scenario, when running linux, you would still be shut out of the "high-value" applications. Even if someone were to make an official, signed and sanctioned version of linux, it would essentially not be linux anymore, since the slightest change you made to it would mean it would no longer match the signature, and would no longer work with those applications.

      Worse yet, as RMS pointed out in the article linked previously, they have the ability to unilaterally change the deal after you have signed up. For instance, if you had a machine that dual-booted between a "trusted" OS and linux, you might find out one day that the "trusted" OS had updated the settings stored in the hardware, and it will no longer allow booting into an untrusted mode. Your machine no longer boots linux!

      There are lots of arguments against this view spewed out by the PR flacks, but it all boils down to "Trust us, we won't go that far, even though we made sure we can, if we decide we want to." A "trusted computing platform" is one that "they" can trust, not one that you can. Using such a platform empowers others to make the choice for you of what your computer will and will not run.

      As for myself, I definately don't trust them.

      --
      However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. -- Winston Churchill
    17. Re:re-asking the question by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      On a trusted plattaform, you would never can run a free software OS. That is because the OS should be signed by a corporation and alowed by the machine (BIOS) fabricant to run there.

      Also, a trusted plattaform will not permit you to boot from a CD that was not allowed by the hardware maker. You could even get a way to run Linux there (making a deal with the hardware fabricant), but you loose the right to change the OS (so, it is not free anymore, at least for you).

      But while you can get luck and retrieve the data from the HD (let's say the hardware permits you to backup your data, what is not trivial on a TC world), that can even be useless, because as soon as you re-image it, it can become incompatible with the old data. That is not specified this way, but the specification gives no warranty about the data compatibility also.

      To answer your more general questoin: "What is TC?". TC is just a hardware that can identify itself and only run an allowed OS that gives you no chance of breaking DRM managing DRM data. It's all about data protection and identification (and also about destrying not allowed - read free - software, but nobody say that to the press).

    18. Re:re-asking the question by marcosdumay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many people will not upgrade, and many will by also ilegal hardware from countries that permmit non TC compilant ones (remember, people from US, there are other countries on the world).

      I really don't believe that TC will spread. On the US (that is already rulled), DRM will spread, and people will start finding ways to break it. But even there, if TC legislation became true, we will start to see so much garbage sold as software that nobody (read, bug companies, with power) will complaint for too long. I not only speaking about bad OS, I'm talking about bad office applications (that hurt business) and bad experiencie on the web (much worse than we have now) to cite two. That is because the TC computers will probably allow you to run just one office application and browser, specified by the BIOS maker (and with very bad support for upgrades).

    19. Re:re-asking the question by Feztaa · · Score: 1

      Actually, I meant it more as a figure of speech. Or did you think that I actually meant that the people would physically transform into lemmings and promptly march off the nearest cliff?

    20. Re:re-asking the question by niiler · · Score: 1
      "dumping encrypted data isn't of much use"

      In the case of one's hard drive, there is usually some plaintext that is known. For example, you typed a letter that has been printed out, or there is an invoice, or a spreadsheet. If you know enough plaintext and a single key was used, you can cryptanalyse the contents.

      It helps, of course, if you also know specifically where such information lives. If the boot sector has the standard form, then you also know what the first 1024 bytes should decrypt to. Given that and the known plaintext strings, one should be able to crack the drive.

      My guess is that some open source programmer will create a bootable app that does this and thereby recovers the contents of the drive.

    21. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Trusted Computing is more insidious than you realize. The problem is that it will spread because it does *not* have the problems you think it has.

      A Trusted computer can do anything a normal computer can do. A Trusted computer is a normal computer *plus* an extra handcuff mode. Outside handcuff mode it is a normal computer that can do anything you can do now. It's like a computer with speakers, when you turn the speakers off it's just as good as a normal speakerless computer.

      It is such a threat becuase there is never any reason *not* to have a Trusted computer.

      Not upgrading your computer will not help you. There is no need to outlaw normal computers because normal coupters aren't a threat to them, because normal computers will be increasingly useless. Trusted Computing it about new software that cannot be installed except in handcuff mode. New software that that can only be run in hancdcuff mode. It is about new media files and e-mail and WEBSITES that can only be seen in handcuff mode. And in a few years you may only be able to get an internet connection while in handcuff mode.

      Yes all of the new stuff is crippled crap when you're in handcuff mode, but none of the new stuff will work at all outside handcuff mode, will not work on a normal computer. You're prefectly free to keep your old computer, you're perfectly free to manufacture and buy normal computers, but you'll get nothing but error messages from half the websites on the internet. You won't be able to read the e-mail your mother or your boss sent you. And your mother and your boss are going to blame you for not being able to read their mail, blame you for having a compatible computer, blame you for having an old obsolete computer.

      The strategy is so insideous because there is no reason *not* to have a Trusted computer, and about making people increasingly suffer if they do not "upgrade" to a Trusted system.

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      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    22. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 1

      If someone uses flawed encryption, yes the "known plaintext attack" can work. However it does not work with properly implemented encrypton. As best as is known, according to state of the art cryptography, the Trusted Computing system is completely immune this attack.

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    23. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 1

      The system is well documented in the enginering specifications. With one exception, everything you said is exactly right. You will be able to book Knoppix or any other OS and software you want, but you will not be able to read or recover any of the Trusted-secured files.

      The one thing you didn't get right was "It is possible the TC chip will trust knoppix once the user enters their password". The chip does not decide to Trust or not Trust anything. The chip does anything software asks it to do, the catch is that the has no instruction for obtaining another program's key, and thus no ability to obtain another program's key. Not unless the original unmidified program itself chose to pass along its key.

      Once you activate the Trust chip the default state is that nothing can ever access that key after any change. If some software used the chip to encrypt some data, and that software did not specifically grant you a copy of that key, then it is impossible to recover that data. The chip will only give that key to the original and unmodified program running on the original and unmodified operating system with the original and unmodified BIOS.

      Of course people wouldn't much like any software that could never be patched, or that died if you patched the OS. So the software will most certainly have deliberate instructions to secure it's key with the OS under the condition that the key only be passed back to itself after an authorized and certified application patch. And the OS with most certainly have deliberate instructions to secure it's key with the OS under the condition that the key only be passed back to itself after an authorized and certified OS patch.

      These steps are only available if the original and unmodified software deliberately acted to enable those abilities.

      The files can only be retrieved with a Knoppix disk if the original software had instructions to deliberately give its key to you or to give the key to that Knoppix OS. Of course if the software had been written to GIVE you its key then we wouldn't be concerned with the question in the first place, chuckle.

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    24. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 2, Informative

      That means the owner can always retrieve all the keys.

      False.

      I've read the technical specifications. The owner is forbidden to know or retrieve the Root Storage Key (RSK). The owner is forbibben to ever be able to see or retieve any 'non-migrable key'. And while it is not forbidden for the owner to retrieve migrable keys, it is impossible for an owner to ever see or retrieve even those migrable keys unless the original unmodified software was already written to make that request and the original author choose to include instructions to pass it to you, and it can only happen under the circumstances he chose to do so.

      Yes, there are a lot of misinformed people making incorrect attacks on Trusted Computing. Not all complaints about Trusted Computing are invalid. In this case it is you understanding and defence of Trusted Computing that is mistaken.

      If you're a programmer/engineer/whatever and you want to see the technical specs I'd be more than happy to provide a link. If you doubt one of my specific statements I'd probably even be willing to take the time to dig out the specific page where that point is documented. The RSK may not be exposed at all, a simple direct requirement of the spec. Nonmigrable keys may not be exposed at all, a simple direct requirement of the spec. The complex point is that the only way to expose a migrable key is if the software author choose to include instructions to do so in the original software. That unmodified software is the only software that can ever retrive those keys, thus the only software that can ever choose to expose those keys.

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    25. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As long as they are the owners and have the password, the data could have been retrieved

      No, any password is useless if the operating system changes in any way unless the original unmodified software was explicitly written to pass along its key. The default state is that it will not be possible at all, and the realistic assumption is that the software will explicitly enable it to happen only to a certified patch of the original operating system.

      So the answer is NO, the data cannot realisticly be retrieved. Not unless you're pretty much running software you wrote yourself to specifically do that

      as long as the user has the last word on using it or not.

      Yeah yeah, it does nothing unless you "voluntarily" opt-in to using it. However it is not particularly voluntary once most new software cannot run if you don't, and when you are locked out of half the websites on the internet if you don't use it, and when you cannot read e-mail from your mother and your boss if you don't use it, and it sure as hell won't be voluntary if in about 5 or 7 years you are denied any internet access at all unless you submit to using it.

      Trusted Computing is necessary, and is good

      I have a question for you. Do you have some expectation that I not unscrew my computer case and rip open my trust chip and use a microscope to read out my master key that unlocks everything on my computer? If you expect that I not do that, then what is that expectation based on? Do you think you have some right to pull out a gun and forcibly imprison me for looking at my own property under a microscope?

      And if I can whip out a microscope and read out my own key, then I'm damn well going to go into business doing so for everyone else so that they can have their master keys as well.

      Trusted Coumputing would be a great thing if people simply knew their master keys. It would be identical hardware with identical capabilites and you're get all of the claimed security benefits against viruses and hackers and everything else. The only difference is that wehn the owner knows his master key then he cac choose wo use it when he likes, can avoid lock in and he can avoid lock out. All you really "lose" is DRM. And when someone is NOT COMMITING COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT then there is absolutely nothing wrong with using YOUR OWN KEY to unlock YOUR OWN FILES on YOUR OWN COMPUER.

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      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    26. Re:re-asking the question by bizarro-faust · · Score: 1

      migratable keys

      1. Boot Knoppix
      2. Copy the data and the key file
      3. Put the data and the key file on a new system
      4. Migrate the key

      Presto they can see their data.
      Note: like most things surrounding Trusted Computing this is hypothetical - I don't know of any implementations of any of this.

    27. Re:re-asking the question by raxx7 · · Score: 1

      That poses a problem: if one has protected data and the TPM fails, how does one recover it?

      I think the answer may be in the TPM_TakeOwnership funcion.
      That funcion, among other things, generates a new SRK. Although it doesn't say it, could it be that the SRK is generated in a deterministic manner from the inputs? If so, that would solve the problem.
      But it would also mean that, for each TPM implementation, there is a SRK = f(inputs). If _f_ becomes known, that TPM implementation becomes useless for DRM.

    28. Re:re-asking the question by raxx7 · · Score: 1

      Interesting too..

      http://www.intel.com/idf/us/fall2003/presentatio ns /F03USSCMS25_OS.pdf

    29. Re:re-asking the question by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      DRM will spread, and people will start finding ways to break it.

      This is exactly why all DRM is doomed to failure - DRM'd data eventually has to be decrypted to be used. This means that you're giving millions of people the means to decrypt your precious DRM'd data. You can guarantee that at least one of those millions of people will have the motivation, knowledge and equipment to reverse engineer the decryption system which the manufacturer put into their hands. And of course, once one person has done it the information they gained will be publicised and it'll be common knowledge how to crack the DRM (exactly like CSS).

      Once your DRM system is cracked, what are you going to do? You could replace it with a new system but that would involve upgrading everyone's DRM decryption chips (possible by re-flashing the firmware, but a logistical nightmare to make sure everyone upgrades), and anything that's been DRM'd with the old system is now effectively DRM-less. And besides, if you make the DRM firmware flash-upgradable, that probably just makes it easier to compromise in the first place.

    30. Re:re-asking the question by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Not upgrading your computer will not help you. There is no need to outlaw normal computers because normal coupters aren't a threat to them, because normal computers will be increasingly useless.

      Ok, so I buy a new "trusted" computer and 6 months later someone's cracked the DRM algorithm used. What then? Am I going to be compelled to upgrade my computer every time the DRM is cracked?

    31. Re:re-asking the question by AllUsernamesAreGone · · Score: 1

      if one has protected data and the TPM fails, how does one recover it?
      You don't.

    32. Re:re-asking the question by makomk · · Score: 1

      Ok, so I buy a new "trusted" computer and 6 months later someone's cracked the DRM algorithm used. What then? Am I going to be compelled to upgrade my computer every time the DRM is cracked?

      No, they'll just ban distributing the crack, telling anyone that a crack exists, even telling anyone that a crack might exist, if necessary. If commercial pressure meets the First Amendment, which do you think will crumble first?

    33. Re:re-asking the question by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      No, they'll just ban distributing the crack, telling anyone that a crack exists, even telling anyone that a crack might exist, if necessary. If commercial pressure meets the First Amendment, which do you think will crumble first?

      Sorry, you are sadly mistaken - there is a world outside the US, no legislation in your country can prevent those of us not in the US publicising a crack - you can't suppress public information with legislation.

      By all accounts you're saying "noone will crack DRM because that's illegal" which is extremely naieve, especially since the whole point of DRM is to prevent people doing something that is *already* illegal anyway.

    34. Re:re-asking the question by equivocal · · Score: 1

      Akin to "if you don't like it, you can take your business elsewhere" which eventually becomes a non-choice as there's nowhere you can take your business.

    35. Re:re-asking the question by Reziac · · Score: 1

      "And if I can whip out a microscope and read out my own key, then I'm damn well going to go into business doing so for everyone else so that they can have their master keys as well."

      You may well have defined the next big underground scene.

      Most simply, one would get a new machine, rip out the chip, send it off to be cracked, get it back with the crack, reinstall it (no doubt it will be soldered... tho I can see how integrating a critical transistor or whatever such that to remove the chip, you'd have to kill that component, would foil even the best hired soldering guns). Not so ideally, you'd sneak off to the nearest cracker's basement and hope no one saw you lugging your computer in and out.

      Imagine a society where you could be halted for carrying a computer, because it would be assumed you were on your way to have its TC chip cracked.

      I'll go off and wash my brain out with soap now...

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      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    36. Re:re-asking the question by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you are sadly mistaken - there is a world outside the US, no legislation in your country can prevent those of us not in the US publicising a crack - you can't suppress public information with legislation.

      Spoken by someone in the UK, widely known as the "USA's bitch" (especially Tony Blair). Maybe if the governments of all you non-USA people weren't so busy pandering to the US and copying all its bad laws, your statement would have some validity.

      There probably will still be countries where they can publicize cracks, but these certainly won't be any economically powerful countries. Most will be perfectly happy to enact any "business protecting" legislation the US orders them to.

    37. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 1

      if one has protected data and the TPM fails, how does one recover it?

      The specification explicitly requires that fully secured data must be irrecoverable.

      Software could always choose to store its data in unsecured cleartext, or it could set up a lesser security level and actively prepare recovery methods, but that's not your choice or under your control unless you are the original software author. Normal files can be backed up just like always. Partially secured files may be recoverable with someone else's permission or under certain conditions or something. Actual Trusted files are required to be irrecoverable.

      could it be that the SRK is generated in a deterministic manner from the inputs?

      The specification requires that the SRK may only be generated by the internal random number generator.

      It may never exist outside the chip, except while encrypted during a manufacturer controlled migration process. The first step destroys the SRK in the original chip as it exports an uncrypted copy. The second step loads the encrypted SRK into the new chip and internally decrypts it. No human may ever see the SRK, it may never exist in more than one chip at a time, and only in the identical model of chip.

      You cannot start the migration process in advance for backup purposes becuase the first step destroys the SRK on the original chip. All your data is gone until you finish the migration to the new computer. You cannot start the migration process after the chip glitches because now you can't initiate the migration process at all, the SRK and your data are already gone.

      Just think DRM and all this stuff should obvious to guess. If you buy a DRM song there must be no way to "recover" the secure file inside. If you buy one copy of a DRM song there must be no way to have it readable on two machines at once. They don't mind if you migrate all your data to a new computer, but it's a perk they permit you to have only to the extent it does not even *remotely* threaten or weaken those DRM requirements.

      The reason you are forbidden to migrate to a different model chip is because if one model chip is found to have a flaw then they don't want to to be able to migrate to that chip to exploit that flaw and extract your data. That restriction also eliminates any possibility for a cross-model migration to match up improperly and introduce a loophole.

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    38. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Ok, so I buy a new "trusted" computer and 6 months later someone's cracked the DRM algorithm used. What then?

      I know what you mean, but the way you phrased the question is a little akward for answering it. The way I answer it is probably going to itch at you, but the division/distinction I 'm going to make really is signifigant. They are spending tens of billions of dollars on this because they have put a lot of thought and effort into exactly this issue.

      You only need to upgrade the computer to change the hardware.
      There is no "DRM algorithm" in the hardware.
      The "DRM algorithms" will be in software. Strong software because of the hardware support, but yes... potentially vunlerable software.

      The reason DRM always falls apart is because DRM is *not* actually an encryption task. It uses encryption, but in an absurd way. An encryption problem is one where you want to get a message from A to B so that C cannot read it. We are very very good at encryption. You are *not* going to crack proper encryption. Not this year, not next year, not in a decade.

      DRM is an attempt for A to send something to B, and let B read it, while trying to prevent B from being able to read it. It's just plain silly.

      They "solve" this by going back to an A B C encryption system and then putting DRM on top of it. A is the RIAA sending a DRM key. B is the chip in your computer. C is you. Forget the song, we are not looking at the song right now. We are looking at a genuine encryption problem of sending a message (the key) from one person (the RIAA) to a second 'person' (the Trust chip) such that a third person (you) cannot read that message. The Trust Chip does not do DRM. The Trust chip does encryption. The Trust Chip can also do encryption for saving and reloading it's own data so that you cannot read it.

      The chip does not try to do DRM. The chip does not try to do anything complex. The chip only tries to do genuine encryption. We are very very good at encryption. We know how to secure genuine encryption systems.

      You may be able to physically rip open a tamper-resistant self destructing Trust Chip and read the secrets inside, just as you may be able to break into the pentagon and read files from thier computers. But you're not going to break the chip's encryption system any more than you're going to break the pentagon's encryption system. You can't download software to crack a chip, you'd need to physically rip chips open one by one in a sophisticated lab.

      Now we get back to the song file. Now we get back to DRM. The software running on the system does the DRM. The hardware support is going to be a HUGE boost for making secure software, but yes, from time to time holes will be found in this software. From time to time you will be able to download some sort of crack from the net and run it and break some DRM. However in most cases this will only affect a single DRM program, not the entire system. Also that software can be patched without needing to buy a new computer. In fact they can FORCE you to patch your system to fix these holes. Some software will only work while you're online, and it will check if there is a new patch available and refuse to run until the patch is installed. Other software may work offline, but only for a while. It may only work offline for a day or week or month at a time, and then stop working until it is allowed to reactivate online and check for new patches.

      The software may occational get cracked and they will FORCE patches on you to fix it, but there is virtually no chance that the hardware will be "cracked" in any way that would require a new computer.

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    39. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Exactly, though if/when it is required for an internet connection it becomes comparable to buying food. You can't go in the supermarket or any resturants, but you have the freedom to plant tomatos on your kitchen windowsill! Chuckle.

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    40. Re:re-asking the question by Alsee · · Score: 1

      By the time Longhorn rolls out, about a year, the chip in question will most certainly be the CPU itself. And don't be supprised if the CPU is surface mounted on the motherboard. 768 tiny solder points and a coat of epoxy to boot.

      halted for carrying a computer, because it would be assumed you were on your way to have its TC chip cracked.

      Ok, now you're just getting paranoid. Chuckle.
      The initial market for the rollout, the one where they already have a substanital percentage install base, is notebook computers. Can't exactly target people for carrying those around, heh. The second rollout market will be business desktops.

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    41. Re:re-asking the question by Reziac · · Score: 1

      "And don't be supprised if the CPU is surface mounted on the motherboard. 768 tiny solder points and a coat of epoxy to boot."

      The OEMs will *love* that. Bye-bye owner-performed upgrades, hello full replacement purchase every time ANYTHING goes tits-up. And of course, who already owns the laptop and enterprise desktop market?? Yep.

      As to "carrying a computer == presumption of guilt" -- Even after refitting and polishing our tinfoil hats, one might foresee TC-free computers as the next Prohibition :/

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      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    42. Re:re-asking the question by pentalive · · Score: 1

      In other words, Any document/song/movie I have on "old trusted computer" will not copy to "new trusted computer" because, as progress marches on, the newer computer will have a different model of DRM chip.

      Buy a new computer, re buy all music.

  5. Trusted Computing: Both good and bad by Neruocomp · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think hardware based security is something that is needed by government and other organizations that handle sensitive information. That way we wouldn't be hearing about databases being cracked and having millions of people's information leaked. Thats the good part.

    The bad part is what it means should trusted computing enter consumer electronics. With DRM it would be like having someone from the MPAA in my living room, and thats something I dont want to happen. While this technology sure has potential, it does need leash to keep it under control. I paid for the machine, so it should do what I want it to do.

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    Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it
    1. Re:Trusted Computing: Both good and bad by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 0, Troll

      Another positive might be that there would be a lot less zombies out there and malware might be less damaging. Most people don't security from their ass, nor should we realistically expect them to. Not everyone has a pet geek to help them out.

      In these cases, some aspects of Trusted Computing would be a good thing.

      However, I don't trust the likes of MS to not subvert it for their own benefit and the benefit of the large content companies. From what I've read, it's pretty much a given.

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      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    2. Re:Trusted Computing: Both good and bad by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I don't see how hardware security is going to stop problems like database leaks, because they are more of an application security, or social engineering problem. rather than hardware.

      If the governmentr needs that high of a security, they simply make the user sign out/ sign in the hard-drive from a secure vault.

      I once lost a secret crypto document while in the army. I had signed it out of the commsec room and was resonsible for it. I had some rather seriuos talks with people from the Army Security Agency over that document. After a while I noticed I was being followed, the sometimes was a second click on the phones I used and shit like that. I sure was glad when I found the document, under the file cabinet drawer, still inside the security vault and was even happier after I got it signed back intop the commsec room.

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      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    3. Re:Trusted Computing: Both good and bad by jbridge21 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No... trusted computing means that the first person who finds a flaw in that part of the operating system gets to write a virus that Norton/etc IS NOT ALLOWED TO LOOK AT, LET ALONE REMOVE!

    4. Re:Trusted Computing: Both good and bad by Neruocomp · · Score: 1

      Not exactly, I'm no programmer but I'm sure it would be setup such a way that only trusted computers could connect to the database through some sort of hardware authentication. Plus with software security (keys and/or biometrics) signing out/in such documents would be more secure but also easier, for one who has access. Also having the documents in only digital form, there would be no losing documents since they could never leave the room where they were accessed. The old way of thinking is not to trust anyone at all, so that can make security procedures more complicated and drawn out, thus the people following you and such. This is why I like trusted computing.

      And yes I know there are ways around software based security, but trusted computing is still in its infancy.

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      Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it
    5. Re:Trusted Computing: Both good and bad by sconeu · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised you were allowed back in to the COMSEC room. In the past I was on a project that required a secret clearance with a COMSEC rider, and we were all freakin' paranoid about any data being left out.

      I'm glad you found the document, and didn't have to have an all-expenses-paid vacation at Ft. Leavenworth!

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      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  6. Article buys industry lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    From TFA:

    After all, if you have a laptop that will only run programs that have been digitally signed then it will be a lot harder for virus writers to get their malicious code to run.

    This is bullshit. You don't special hardware to make an OS that will run signed apps only.

    Trusted computing is primarily about digital rights management.

    1. Re:Article buys industry lies by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Digital rights management is about controlling the data on your machine and deciding who has the rights to run it.

      That data can be images, movies, mp3s or executable code...

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      liqbase :: faster than paper
    2. Re:Article buys industry lies by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Hardware security is still only as good as the software that is, ultimately, in charge of it. For the bulk of TC users that will mean Windows, and that will get be exploited as it always has been. Face it: Microsoft is looking for a hardware hack to take care of all the software hacks that are their flagship operating system. They want this for two reasons. A. to assuage all the complaints about operating system security and b. to ingratiate themselves with the media moguls. And yes, I'm sure that Trusted Computing will help make our systems less exploitable, for a time and to a certain degree. But the loss of control of our machines that the black hats will suffer will be nothing compared to what we lose if we accept this poor tradeoff. It wouldn't even be an issue, really, if those promoting Trusted Computing were subject to free market forces. They aren't though. The power of the Federal Government has been conscripted to shove it down our throats. Oh, I know ... Trusted Computing hasn't been mandated (yet.) But DRM has, and Trusted Computing is little more than an extension of that, from a conceptual standpoint. In this connected world, somebody always wants to own your machine ... it's a toss-up, in my mind, whether we're better off with the MPAA, the Office of Homeland Security, or some Bulgarian hacker. They all want a piece of us and don't much care how they get it.

      What disturbs me is how easily people buy into the sound bites they're being fed every day. "Why, how can open source possibly be secure if everyone can see how it works?" "I think Trusted Computing sounds great! How else can we stop all the piracy?" And so forth. The larger issues for Americans are about Constitutionality, how far our government's authority should extend, how far foreign oligopolies can influence U.S. government and private-sector technological development ... hell, whether we can even continue to maintain a high-technology civilization and a standard of living that even approximates what we've enjoyed in the past. These are actually very important things that should concern all of us. But sometimes I feel like I'm spittin' into the wind.

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      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    3. Re:Article buys industry lies by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      What disturbs me is how easily people buy into the sound bites they're being fed every day. "Why, how can open source possibly be secure if everyone can see how it works?" "I think Trusted Computing sounds great! How else can we stop all the piracy?" And so forth. The larger issues for Americans are about Constitutionality, how far our government's authority should extend, how far foreign oligopolies can influence U.S. government and private-sector technological development ... hell, whether we can even continue to maintain a high-technology civilization and a standard of living that even approximates what we've enjoyed in the past. These are actually very important things that should concern all of us. But sometimes I feel like I'm spittin' into the wind.

      I think you are too. The problem in this country (USA) is that almost no one cares about freedom any more. This used to be an important concept 100-200 years ago, but not any more. People stil give lip service to freedom, but in reality they now just want convenience.

  7. To Be Fair... by N3koFever · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...the BBC is publicly funded and so doesn't need to make a profit. They don't care if people go and download their stuff (in fact, they're soon going to be offering their archives online) because they don't have advertising revenue to lose and have already made their money from everyone in the UK with a TV who pays £120/year to them. I'm sure that a commercial company that actually had to turn a profit would be singing a different tune.

    1. Re:To Be Fair... by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, maybe that means the BBC has the right business model and the commercial media industry doesn't?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:To Be Fair... by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

      Probably not, the way the BBC is funded is unlikely to happen in any other media organisation ever again and its hardly a big profit maker, but its definitely good that its there to provide a source free from sponsors and majority shareholders.

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
    3. Re:To Be Fair... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      its[sic] definitely good that its[sic] there to provide a source free from sponsors and majority shareholders.
      That's kind of ironic, since we used to be praising private companies as sources free from government interference, don't you think?
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:To Be Fair... by Dominic+Burns · · Score: 1

      What, enforced payment to operate a TV set is a good business model?

      Well, yes, I suppose it probably is.

      Sorry - lost the tread a bit there - thought I had a point to make....

    5. Re:To Be Fair... by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

      It would be ironic, but the BBC is also free from government interference.. kinda. Please ignore David Kelly sitting in that tree over there.

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
    6. Re:To Be Fair... by AaronGTurner · · Score: 1
      "...the BBC is publicly funded and so doesn't need to make a profit. "

      The BBC is required to show a return on investment, however. And the BBC does care what is downloaded and how it is used, but has more liberal availability than some organisations. However if you go to the BBC radio website you will see that not all shows are available as 'listen again' and those that are available are only available for 1 week.

    7. Re:To Be Fair... by timmyf2371 · · Score: 1
      The BBC's business model is to charge each household in the UK who have a television a fee of around £110 regardless of whether they use BBC services or not.

      If the TV license fee isn't paid, then the Government allows non-payers to be fined upto £1,000.

      Personally, I feel a business model of allowing viewers/listeners to pay for a particular service if they decide to use it is a much more fair business model.

      --

      Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
    8. Re:To Be Fair... by Burz · · Score: 1

      I think it means that countries with a mixed media market like the UK (with a large and independant public sector) have the right business model. The BBC 'customer' is anyone with a TV who pays the same license fee no matter how cheap or pricey the TV, so if other news outlets stop looking out the for little guy then the BBC almost certainly will fill the gap. This ensures that 'populist' news and entertainment remains a significant part of the information landscape.

      Castrate the "public" sector media (Pathetic Braodcasting System *cough*) by making it merely a charity and a recipient of the well-heeled and purchased politicians, and the populace is left with only commercial media interests which become increasingly monopolistic, deranged and abusive. With no pluralism or competing vision for the media market, and a small class of large investors demanding that media corps push their interests, the US mass media are going off the deep-end.

      When you've grabbed all the money then you have everything in the world to lose. Then grabbing CONTROL seems utterly necessary. This is why the US news media seems so self-censoring: Their conglomerates are now grabbing control of the government so their inclination is to cover for more of the government's misdeeds. When government and industry merge to champion economic purity (the fascist way I described or the opposite communist way) then look out! Corporations have control over real property and policy but now they want virtually all "Intellectual Property" to be private, effectively giving them control over our culture.

      Ya know, in Soviet Russia... :-)
      Well, they had only one acceptable economic model for production as well as one political party. The US two-party system is now a false dichotomy and a false choice because both parties subscribe to the same single overall vision for the economy: Commercial conglomerates.

      (end of rant :)

    9. Re:To Be Fair... by This+is+outrageous! · · Score: 1
      The BBC's business model is to charge each household in the UK who have a television a fee

      Don't want to be charged? Don't get a TV!

      (N.B. I don't have one, except 1 month every 4 years for the World Cup. I probably would have one if the BBC did broadcast around here. That's how pathetic our commercials-funded programs are. Be careful what you wish for...)

      --
      This is...

      O
      U
      T
      R
      A
      G
      E
      O
      U
      S

      !

    10. Re:To Be Fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BBC does need to make profit, if it wants to do more than it can raise from tv licenses then it needs to make profits from elsewhere. It already does this with things like DVD sales, selling programs to foreign networks and advertising on bbc world.

    11. Re:To Be Fair... by StressedEd · · Score: 1
      ..everyone in the UK with a TV who pays £120/year to them..


      Of course, these things are flexible. One must change with the times, so don't be surprised if you will need a license for your PC in a decade. Presumably this will be conducted using trusted computing! Gotta love it!


      Now, where's my tin-foil hat?

      --
      Be nice to people on the way up. You will meet them again on your way down!
    12. Re:To Be Fair... by swiftstream · · Score: 1

      Umm, right.

      So, the commercial media industry should all be tax-payer funded, so that they don't need to worry about turning a profit?

      Or did you mean something else?

      --
      Be a PATRIOT--because the only thing we have to fear is the lack thereof.
    13. Re:To Be Fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, the commercial media industry should all be tax-payer funded, so that they don't need to worry about turning a profit?

      Do you know precisely how much scrutiny the BBC comes under? They don't just get handed money from the state to waste however the hell they like. They have to justify how every penny is spent; they have to prove that every programme they broadcast is a public service. As a result, the BBC must be one of the least wasteful bureaucracies in the world...

    14. Re:To Be Fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's imho vastly preferable to have a medium that is meddled with by government than a medium that is meddled with by private enterprise. With the government-owned media organizations you know what their bias is, and you can recognize it and filter it out. With privately held media organizations, it's very hard to figure out the bias, and becomes much more difficult to know what parts you can or can't trust. In practice, all media organizations are horribly biased. But the lack of transparency in the bias in private enterprises makes people believe their favorite private media organization is unbiased.

      Take the example of CNN, which gets slammed from the left for being too right-wing, from the right for being too left-wing, and gets praise from those who mistakenly believe it is unbiased because it gets criticism from both sides of the political spectrum. In reality CNN's bias is the bottom line, where they will only run their operation in a way that delivers maximum profit. this means rehashing the same story over and over (saves on research and real journalism, which are expensive), and they will play up extreme points in politics (from both sides) in an antagonistic forum because that draws people from all political sides who watch to know "how it ends", which it never does, because giving conclusive answers to tough questions is unprofitable, because it kills the story.

  8. BBC by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 5, Insightful
    As an American, I'd like to express my gratitude to the BBC for being one of the most, if not THE most outstanding media organization in the world.

    I know they have their faults, but when they need to come through, they really come through, especially on matters of public interest.

    I for one welcome our new BBC Overlords, in hopes that they will be a big ally in our struggle to further media distribution on the net.

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
    1. Re:BBC by Jim_Callahan · · Score: 1

      Yeah, nice to have news that actually separates commentary from information, and has biases out of sync with american media by a few months to a year. Makes finding the actual information easier.

      --
      ...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
    2. Re:BBC by Physician · · Score: 1

      I for one hate the extreme liberal bias exerted by the BBC.

      It's laughable that anyone could think otherwise.

      --
      Does God treat us as servants or friends? Check my homepage.
    3. Re:BBC by Spodlink05 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I for one hate the extreme liberal bias exerted by the BBC. It's laughable that anyone could think otherwise.

      Here in the UK everyone complains that the Beeb are biased - the conservatives, the liberals, the government. They must be doing something right.

    4. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      As an American, I'd like to express my gratitude to the Fox News for being one of the most, if not THE most outstanding media organization in the world.

      I know they have their faults, but when they need to come through, they really come through, especially on matters of public interest.

      I for one welcome our new Fox News Overlords, in hopes that they will be a big ally in our struggle to further media distribution on the net.

    5. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The spirit of this thread was dramatized in last week's episode of Boston Legal. (I remember seeing a torrent for the ep.) There was one court case about a school principal who blocked just one particular TV channel because he believed its media reporting exposed "bias" he believed was potentially harmful to students' free thinking. IOW, the student was not allowed to view freely and come to his own conclusions about the reporting.

    6. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, yes, but that's because the BBC are well to the left of all three! ;)

    7. Re:BBC by psychofox · · Score: 1

      It's just a pity that Bill Thompson, who represents the BBC is such a fool. Reference: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3334531.stm He writes for example: "Earlier this year I wrote that Google was becoming so powerful that it should be regulated by a new 'office of search engines.'" I simply never read BBC News tech stories with his name on them anymore.

    8. Re:BBC by psychofox · · Score: 1
    9. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      god knows what all 3 think of channel 4 then.

    10. Re:BBC by Sajarak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, this article is actually quite an interesting about-face for him. Just two and a half years ago, when Microsoft announced that it was jumping on the trusted computing bandwagon, he wrote this article, singing the praises of hardware-based restrictions, and governmental regulation of the internet.

      It seems that he's only just recently come to the conclusion that maybe this whole trusted computing thing is there to serve the purposes of the hardware and software makers, rather than their users.

    11. Re:BBC by guidemaker · · Score: 1

      It's just a pity that Bill Thompson, who represents the BBC is such a fool.

      Well, he only represents the BBC in that he writes an occasional column. And part of the reason for running a column is to elict reaction, which I suspect he does regularly. But don't expect reasoned argument or technical accuracy.

  9. Keep in mind by JohnnyKlunk · · Score: 5, Informative

    BBC on DRM and Trusted Computing

    Bill Thompson is the Beebs geeky, slashdotty type technology editor. His articles are not representitive of BBC corporate policy, as the headline seems to imply.

    1. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I seem to remember that he provoked the ire of slashdotters with an article on the SCO debacle that toed the SCO line...

    2. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also keep in mind that Bill Thompson is the most complained about submitter to the BBC News site.
      Twice his "work" has had to be removed, due to blatant plagiarism - and he has been caught once plugging some service towards which he had a vested interest.
      The fact that the BBC continue to employ him beggers belief.

    3. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardly. You don't see geeky slashdot editors dropping pictures of themselves into every article they write... How vane can you get?

    4. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and your evidence of this is? I notice you post anonymously, presumably out of fear of being sued for libel.

  10. EFF and Berkeley by millette · · Score: 3, Informative

    The EFF has been following the DRM issue for quite some time now. See also this 2003 conference on DRM at Berkeley.

  11. +1 Informative by Sanity · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This is a very important point, lest anyone in the UK be lulled into a false sense of security as to their vulnerability to this kind of thing.

    If anything Europeans need to fight harder against this stuff because often those arguing against it are arrogant Americans whose argument is often "we do it in the US, therefore you must too". The irony often is that they have a harder time pushing it in the US than elsewhere.

    I had a recent experience of this type of thing in teh debate over software patents in the EU.

    1. Re:+1 Informative by Sanity · · Score: 1
      If anything Europeans need to fight harder against this stuff because often those arguing against it are arrogant Americans whose argument is often "we do it in the US, therefore you must too".
      s/against/for
  12. Re:Just my opinion, but... by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well yes, you would expect this kind of behaviour from any zealot. A hygeine zealot will consider one shower a day to be a filthy neglect of your hygeine. That's the nature of a zealot so in a strange way, you're right.

    The article makes some fair points about the changes in iTunes but doesn't mention the improvements. I can authorise more computers to play my Music Store tracks than I could before (it was only 3, not it's up to 5). I can stream my music over AirPort.

    He does make a fair point though that it can be a slippery slope. Perhaps we need to find ways to stop companies inserting "Everything is subject change" clauses in their contracts?

    --
    -- Using the preview button since 2005
  13. Whew! by SPQRDecker · · Score: 1
    This BBC article by Bill Thompson is balanced and concise on the issues of DRM and 'Trusted Computing


    You scared me for a second. At first, it looked like it said 'fair and balanced'.
  14. have already made their money by oliverthered · · Score: 1

    The BBC makes quite a lot of money selling it's footage and selling DVD's and the like.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  15. Not 100% correct by jd · · Score: 5, Informative
    BBC Enterprises makes a decent income from the sale of videos and DVDs to consumers, and master tapes to overseas broadcasters. As such, BBC Enterprises would be hard-hit if piracy were to destroy their markets, which would (in the end) impact the BBC in general.


    It is an interesting twist of fate, though, that a significant fraction of the BBC Enterprise's income come from Black and White footage that the BBC Archives destroyed in the 1970s, but was later recovered by enthusiasts, media history fanatics, broadcasters with a sense of history, etc.


    Had DRM existed in the 1960s, virtually everything prior to 1970 would have been lost forever. This would have included virtually all the Doctor Who stories, the BBC coverage of the moon landings, and many other recordings now regarded as historic and of extreme interest.


    Fans of The Avengers would also have lost out, as many Catherine Gale episodes were recovered from a landfill site, as were the two known surviving episodes from the first season with Dr. Keel.


    No, television today would be poorer, had they had DRM back then. The BBC would appear to have learned the hard way, but nonetheless have learned that copyright cuts both ways. It hurts EVERYONE and not just those supposedly targetted.


    Orrin Hatch and American broadcasters have never really experienced the devastating losses that can result from a single bad decision. (Well, at least, not in broadcasting. The US has suffered many losses due to bad decisions in other areas of life.) Their refusal to recognise the lessons demonstrated so clearly by others is frightening. Faulty policies, through ignorance, can be excused. But there is no ignorance here. They know perfectly well what others have experienced, and either through arrogance or contempt, do not make any effort to avoid repeating those experiences here in the US.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Not 100% correct by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Copyright cuts both ways, and so do bad examples. The United States has turned over control of the copyright and patent systems over to the private sector (not directly, perhaps, but the results of the DMCA, Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act, the Mickey Mouse Preservation Act and others) have had that effect. Sadly, however, the European Union is doing much the same thing with their copyright and patent laws. That tells me that an unwillingness to learn by someone else's bad experience is not limited to the United States alone.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:Not 100% correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many of the companies with a large amount of content are transnational or even European (e.g. Vivendi) and European governments are just as vulnerable to lobbying from them as the US Government, and to lobbying by governments on behalf of these firms.

    3. Re:Not 100% correct by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      The Avengers was not a BBC production.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
  16. How long before installers refuse to work without by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think the urgency of this inevitable erosion of consumer and personal human rights has dawned on congress, which will be the only means by which this is stopped.

    End user ignornace will result in widespread proliferation of such devices, and how long will it be before installers refuse to work unless your "TPM" is activated?

  17. The fundamental trouble with Trusted Computing by boss+soul · · Score: 1

    I think the key passage from the article is:

    It will not work because of the fundamental flaw at the heart of the system: in order for the purchaser to view the content it has to be unlocked. Once it is unlocked then someone, somewhere, will figure out a way to make a copy of the unlocked version. And once an unlocked version leaks onto the network it will be uncontrollable.

    The other day, when Slashdot did a story on the Wiki L. Lessig was using to create a new version of his book... I read through his section on Trusted Computing and all I could think about is precisely the problem described above. There is no way to allow users to listen to/read/watch content that prevents that user from generating a copy of it. Have any of the trusted computing advocates addessed this issue? Is there some party line from the Lessig camp that explains how such a system could possibly protect digital content?

    If there's an argument to be made, I'm ready to hear it. Otherwise... all this talk about the New Age of Copyright just seems kinda silly.

    1. Re:The fundamental trouble with Trusted Computing by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Well, it seems to me that the simplest solution is to not allow non-DRM'd content at all. Presumably, the "problem" is copying of unlocked content, so if no devices can play it then it can't spread.

      This of course has the side effect that everything you create yourself will have to be DRM'd, and moreover it will have to be encrypted with a key kept secret from you which has the consequence that all your data -- bought and created from scratch -- are belong to Microsoft (or whoever controls the keys).

      It'll also mean that all devices (including input devices like digital cameras and microphones) as well as PCs will have to be "Trusted," and that old equipment will have to be outlawed and confiscated. This is to prevent transmission of infringed material through legacy hardware and networks.

      I imagine it'll look something like a combination of Prohibition (remember those old videos of ATF agents taking axes to beer kegs?) and Fahrenheit 451.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:The fundamental trouble with Trusted Computing by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Basically, as I see it, these companies (unless they're really dumb, which I won't rule out) don't think they are going to prevent copying. However, if you can make content available in a way which is agreeable to the user, but still discourages copying and sharing, then the average user will no longer see a need to download illegally.

      Whether or not current schemes make sense for that idea is another question, because if the user discovers that after listening to a song 5 times, its gone, then they won't bother with DRM'd songs, and just go back to illegal downloading.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    3. Re:The fundamental trouble with Trusted Computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you are describing is similar to the SSSCA or CBDTPA but without the grandfather clause for old equipment. Legislation that would mostly do what you suggest has already been introduced (and defeated) in Congress, so what you propose is certainly possible.

    4. Re:The fundamental trouble with Trusted Computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither of us has any qualms about opening up a recently bought computer or device and modding it to do whatever we want. After all, it is our own property (we still do have property rights, don't we?)

      However, consider that most people buying a new computer don't have that option, and must therefore follow along like sheep and agree to having their rights taken away. While you may not be concerned with what happens to less technically-minded people today, eventually you will because the success of TC motherboards in the marketplace will pave the way for TC hard drives, TC CPU cores, TC speakers, TC monitors, TC interfaces, TC applications, etc. Eventually it will become difficult even for you to get your rights back. Someday you may want to email your senator, and get the following reply: "Sorry, that email application is no longer Trusted (because it contained opinions someone didn't like). All email access from this CPUID/TPM has been revoked."

  18. "trusted computing"? Framing issue by MikeCapone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Lets not use the language of the opposition.

    By using the words "trusted computing" they are trying to vehicle a certain sub-text, just like when certain people use "tax relief" instead of "tax cuts" or "death tax" instead of "tax on estates of over 1 million dollars".

    George Lakoff would have a lot to say about this...

    1. Re:"trusted computing"? Framing issue by pongo000 · · Score: 1

      I believe the correct term is "treacherous computing." (Not my idea -- Stallman's, I think.)

    2. Re:"trusted computing"? Framing issue by MikeCapone · · Score: 1

      I believe the correct term is "treacherous computing." (Not my idea -- Stallman's, I think.)

      My suggestion would be not to go too overboard because it's harder to be taken seriously.

      Something like "limited computing" or "rent-a-computer" would be good.

    3. Re:"trusted computing"? Framing issue by Greatred · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. The companies pushing for "trusted computing" are using language and marketing strategies aimed at the common user. The common user being the poor soul who wastes hours of their time each day closing pop-up windows, dealing with spyware, adware, viruses.

      A magic bullet solution that "trusted computing" promises makes it very favourable, but it is also a wooden horse for badly thought-out DRM ideas which hamper the consumers' use of their purchased materials. My relatives have bought music legally, only to find that it is unsuitable for their MP3 player. I have bought CDs only to find that I cannot play them in my computer's CD drive. I need no more convincing that DRM and copy-protection (as it is currently implemented) only serves to hamper the end-user, and encourage illegally copying media. "Trusted computing" only stands to make this even worse.

      It's good to see a reliable news source like the BBC bringing this matter to the attention of the general public. I only hope that enough people read and understand the issues raised in order to make sure that "trusted computing" never takes power away from the end-user, rather than having it taken away from them while they sleep.

    4. Re:"trusted computing"? Framing issue by MikeCapone · · Score: 1

      Exactly!

      These things work or don't work based on the public's perception, which is why I think it's very important not to fall into the trap of falling into the "frame" used by those pushing for these measures.

      Lets argue against "restrictions on our freedom to use what we buy" and "arbitrary limitations on how we use things", not against "trusted computing".

      To the common person, it sound bad to say that you are against trusted computing.

    5. Re:"trusted computing"? Framing issue by Greatred · · Score: 1

      My main concern with trusted computing is that it takes power away from me to use a computer for what it is: a tool.

      Once I give up the right of saying what code is trusted and what is not then the hardware sitting on my desk becomes a platform for media, games and wordprocessing. Which fundamentally scares me, being a programmer who uses his computer to solve problems and answer questions.

      A quote from the Windows 98 (I think) installer strikes me as becoming scarily close to reality; "Windows 98 redefines the computer as the entertainment centre of the home". I'm worried that that's all a personal computer will become.

  19. right to read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
    1. Re:right to read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am so sick and fucking tired of seeing this link. RMS is a fucking retard and his story is nothing more than a story. Allowing me to protect my copyrights does not mean people will not be able to share a book, they just won't be able to pass around digital copies for all to read. boo-fucking-hoo. Perhaps that cheap hippy sack of shit should get off his ass and get a real job in the real world, perhaps he will be singing a different tune then.

  20. One simple criterion for what is trustable by file-exists-p · · Score: 4, Insightful


    If the device includes a private key known by the manufacturer and not known by the customer, the device is trustable by the manufacturer and not anymore by the customer.

    There are no user-friendly feature which requires such a key, and there are no way to take your right away without such a key.

    --
    Go Debian!

    1. Re:One simple criterion for what is trustable by Alsee · · Score: 1

      An excllent post and an excellent point and I agree with your position. However there is a factual error. In general the manufacturer does not actually know the key. Either it is generated randomly inside the chip itself, or it is generated outside the chip and inserted into the chip and the manufacturer is not allowed to keep a record of that key.

      The situation is still just as bad. The problem and all of the abuses are because the owner is prohibited from knowing his own key.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    2. Re:One simple criterion for what is trustable by file-exists-p · · Score: 1


      Then I am sort of lost. I thought one major point was that the fritz-chip has to be able to send a trustable report about your hardware/software configuration.

      If no such private key known by the manufacturer exists, how can they know that I don't just forge such a report with the adequate software ?

      --
      Go Debian!

    3. Re:One simple criterion for what is trustable by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I thought one major point was that the fritz-chip has to be able to send a trustable report about your hardware/software configuration.

      Correct.

      how can they know that I don't just forge such a report with the adequate software?

      I'm not sure how much you know about public key cryptography and signatures, so I'm not sure what leval to target my answer. I'll give give a midlevel explanation that will be crystal clear if you are familiar with public/private keys and with signatures. If you're not then just ask and I'll explain any portions in more detail.

      The chip contains a random private key. No one ever gets to see this key. Security fundamentally rests on keeping this key safely locked inside the chip.

      The chip's private key is crypographically tied to a matched public key. The public key is not secret. This key uniquely identifies your chip. Revealing this key is kinda like handing someone a copy of your birth certificate. They *partially* solved this privacy problem, but lets not get into how. I'm just explaining the foundation that lets it work at all. Your chip freely tells you this public key.

      The manufacturer looks at the chip's public key and cryptographicly signs that public key. You cannot forge this signature, not unless you know the manufacturer's secret key. The manufacturer gives you this signature.

      There's another level where the Trusted Computing Group signs the manufacturer's key and thereby authenticates that the manufacturer's signature is a genuine manufacturer's signature. The manufacturer gives you this signature too.

      So you now have:
      (1) A chip with a secret private key locked inside.
      (2) You have your chip's public key. It is bound to #1.
      (3) You have the manufacturer's signature. It is bound to and authenticates #2.
      (4) You have the Trusted Computing Group's signature. It is bound to and authenticates #3.

      So now you connect to some computer on the internet. You send them #4 #3 and #2.
      They know the Trusted Computing Group and they can directly verify that #4 is genuine.
      They use #4 to authenticate that you gave them a genuine #3.
      They use #3 to authenticate that you gave them a genuine #2.

      They now know you sent them a genuine chip public key.
      They know that the matching private key only exists inside a genuine chip.

      Now they encrypt something using your chip's public key. It can only be decrypted using the matching private key. That key is inside the chip, therefore that decryption can only be done inside the chip itself. Only they and the chip will know what it decrypts to. They send this encrypted message to you, you feed it into your chip, your chip decrypts it. Your chip now knows the secret message, you do not. Your chip sends an answer prooving knows this message, but without actually showing you the secret message itself. You send the proof back to them. They now know it was decrypted, and that it was decrypted inside a genuine chip. And they know you do not know the secret message.

      So now they can have an entire encrypted and authenticated conversation with your chip, and you just passing these encrypted messages to and from your chip. You are the enemy. Your chip will report exactly what hardware and software you have. They they can securely send DRM media keys into your chip. You cannot read these messages, and any attempt to alter them *will* be exposed as curruption and rejected. Your only choice is to carry these messages and be handcuffed by the Trust system, or to block these messages and your software does not work, or to currupt the messaes and your software does not work.

      I left a lot out, and I completely skipped all of they layers on top of it. Once you have this ability in place you can build all sorts of things on top. Once you can do this you can build "identities". You can build mechanisms to be mostly anonymous. You can reveal your unique chip key to just one Trusted server and that server can set up a system where

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    4. Re:One simple criterion for what is trustable by file-exists-p · · Score: 1


      The manufacturer looks at the chip's public key and cryptographicly signs that public key.

      Ho, ok!

      Then I patch my criterion for non-trustable hardware:

      A device is non-trustable if it contains a key generated before you become the owner of the device.

      I guess this is not precise enough since the key could be generated randomly later on, while being still in a family of keys that the manufacturer knows has trustable since they are specific to his chips. Anyway.

      BTW, it seems that there exists simple attacks based on physical stress (exposing the chip to micro-waves, heat, tension under the spec, etc.) so that it mess up its computations and provides information about its private key (for instance, it would mess up a product and makes it far easier to guess the secret prime factors). Are standard chips sold today protected from such attacks? It seems natural for instance to make every computation in several parallel units and to refuse to provide the result if all units do not agree.

      More generally, is the belief in the cryptographic community that all this mess is going to actually work ?

      --
      Go Debian!

    5. Re:One simple criterion for what is trustable by Alsee · · Score: 1

      A device is non-trustable if it contains a key generated before you become the owner of the device.

      I'm 99% certain that is broad enough. It would be impossible for them to secure the device against compatible but non-compliant replacements. Unfortuately it is too broad. It would cover an answering machine with a random pre-programed access code.

      It's a tricky definition to get just right. It's not about the key itself, it's about the fact that the owner cannot get his key.

      If I were king-for-a-day, I have a pretty easy solution to this whole mess. We could solve it with a very painless law, nothing more than a warning label law. With a little effort I could define a class of products that must prominently carry a disclaimer something like:
      Warning: This product may cause irretrivable data loss.

      It would roughly apply to any product designed to encrypt data and which contains a cryptographic key which the owner cannot easily obtain.

      Banks and the military and government intelligence agencies could and would still buy that if that is what they really want, but such a label would pretty well scare away the general public on normal products. A pretty tame consumer protection law, but probably quite effective. As reasonable as it is, somehow I still don't think we'd be able to get it passed. Chuckle.

      Are standard chips sold today protected from such attacks?

      Yes, but it is still a very promising avenue of attack.There are good attacks to try even without physical stress. Simply measuring precise timing of operations can leak information about keys. Simple precision meaurement of voltage and power usage levels can leak information about keys.

      They are designing in countermeasures, but it is still an area where the attacker usually has the advantage.

      More generally, is the belief in the cryptographic community that all this mess is going to actually work?

      I'm sure they have some of the best cryptographers on earth on the project. It uses state of the art encryption throughout. The design is insanely paranoid. They designed it such that you can't even attempt any sort of attack on the critical keys. Only the lower level keys in a chip can really be played with.

      If we can factor 2048 bit numbers the entire system vanishes in a puff of smoke. If we can crack 128 AES (Advanced Encryption Standard) encryption we can battle layer by layer and pry the system apart. If we get an ordinary break of SHA-1 (Secure Hash Algorithm) the system remains almost completely secure except for a handful of essentially useless acedemic threats. If we get an almost magical sort of break of SHA-1 then the system falls apart.

      Unfortuately there is near zero chance any of those things will happen in the forseeable future. It may fail for other reasons, but short of an earthshattering mathematical breakthrough it is *not* going to fail for cryptographic reasons.

      The only real avenue I see is either public backlash to prevent deployment or physical attack. Physical attack is a bitch because you have to physically crack systems one by one. Even then you need to be very careful that they don't detect your enhanced abilities and blacklist your key.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  21. entirely fictional... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... but also making a valid point.

  22. Freeloaders by bonch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unfortunately--at least on /., anyway--the loud opinions of those "freeloaders" usually makes rational discussion of copyrights, intellectual property, and DRM meaningless. You can't get past the "RIAA IS EVIL AND I AM A FREEDOM FIGHTER" mindset. I think we'll start seeing some real progress and some valid compromises made by both sides if we can get past the reactionary attitudes that really only exist to shift blame away from downloaders and onto some faceless corporate entity, because demonization is easier than acknowledgement of one's own guilt.

    The truth is that the portrayal of both sides is usually wrong. Most companies aren't big, evil, cigar-smoking Republicans sitting in dark rooms plotting economic takeovers to maintain their monopolies. They're just companies trying to protect their media content because of the explosion of piracy. And pirates aren't freedom fighters riding the wave of a big cultural movement. Most are just freeloaders looking to get stuff without having to pay for it (it's basic human nature).

    So far, iTunes has been a big success, so apparently a lot of consumers have no problem with DRM and online legal music-downloading. So to be quite honest, I don't know why people still complain about an "obsolete business model" when record labels have already embraced services like Napster and iTunes. Legal online music is already here, which makes the argument for piracy appear even more self-serving.

    1. Re:Freeloaders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      They're just companies trying to protect their media content because of the explosion of piracy.
      You make it sound as if the companies protect their content for the same reason you or I would protect our houses and families.
      Replace "media content" with "bloated cashstream" and you'll be closer to the truth.
    2. Re:Freeloaders by Psiren · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with pretty much everything you said. The trouble is, DRM is a (poor) technical fix for a social problem. Those that really want to copy these thigns generally still will, whereas some (potential) paying customers such as myself have problems with it (I've yet to see any reasonable online music site offering files I can play under Linux, and no, that dodgy Russian site isn't one, before anyone points me to it).

      Personally I still prefer to buy CDs. I like having the physical item in my hands, but even some of these are now coming with Copy Protection. Some people have had problems with these, yet again proving the technical solution is not the correct one. Unfortunately, I've no idea what is.

    3. Re:Freeloaders by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      DRM is a technological solution to a social problem. It's been said many times before, but it's still true.

      The problem with the Big labels' acceptance of the "new" business model like Napster (subscription) is that if they could, they'd rent you content and charge per use. A "pay-per-view" society is the content providers' wet dream. A funnel of money coming from your wallet and going to their bank account each time you turn on your TV, read a newspaper, or get on the internet.

      Don't think that's what they want? DiVX was a piss-poor version of what they REALLY are after. You not having a physical copy of anything, and they controlling both ends of the pipe.

      Can't do it? No, not yet they can't. But Trusted Computing and the legislation to back up their lockdown (DMCA anyone?), and they, not you, are in control. Each step is making it harder and harder for people to exert their rights over the rights of content owners, not the producers, the OWNERS. The biggest cry is from those who create NOTHING. They just OWN it. Who are the REAL freeloaders in this debate?

      Explosion of piracy? You sound like a PR statement from the RIAA front desk. They are making billions. Still raking it in.. and by the way, increasing sales, in the face of "the explosion of piracy." How can they explain this? Well, they'd be making TRILLIONS if it weren't for those bastard college students. In other words, they don't. Don't look at how much we are making. Look at how much we claim to be losing. (That's another debate entirely.)

      Every technological advancement has been met with the same brand of resistance and sometimes even from the same people (MPAA and VCR, anyone?) Every time the content providers adapt and innovate, they tap into yet another stream of revenue. Every time they stifle, legislate, sue, and whine, they disappear. It's called progress. Get on the train, or be left at the station. Sad thing is, the current content providers want to obliterate the train and the station.

      They won't innovate anymore. Now their course it to control. I am not a freeloader, but I am also not going to give up any control. The things these people are trying to control are worthless pieces of entertainment that are not essential to your or my daily life. The sooner people realize this, the sooner the importance of this whole debate will return to the level it should. These providers aren't making anything we can't live without.

      I for one would rather do without than to live under someone else's control. Nothing they have is worth losing your freedom over. Nothing.

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    4. Re:Freeloaders by aidan+folkes · · Score: 1
      The problem with the Big labels' acceptance of the "new" business model like Napster (subscription) is that if they could, they'd rent you content and charge per use. A "pay-per-view" society is the content providers' wet dream. A funnel of money coming from your wallet and going to their bank account each time you turn on your TV, read a newspaper, or get on the internet.

      There are ways in which pay-per-view is cheaper for the consumer.

      I pay MSN Music UK 1p to listen to a track once, or 69p to download and listen repeatedly. I've listened to the same tracks a few times, but it's worked out cheaper than buying them!

    5. Re:Freeloaders by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

      Your post must be +7 or something. Explains whole stuff.

      The last paragraph though... Every single shareware/game/program/music on this mac is purchased. E.g. I respect to artists work.

      To buy downloaded legal music, I am stuck to Magnatunes.com. Of course, its the thing. The problem is, e.g. if I want to listen Velvet Underground, a major label one I must go and buy CD and rip it to iTunes.

      iTunes does not exist other than 10 or less countries and napster uses windows media format which sounds like tin to me.

      I can't blame Apple/iTunes for this funny thing. E.g. customer ready to buy stuff but can't. I blame (of course) RIAA. I don't think Steve Jobs is mad yet to have something against Turkey for instance and saying "you can't buy it! go away"

      oh btw, I bet you know already but there is a Russia based site claiming to offer legit mp3 all over world. Its not the issue whether they are real or not, the issue is artist doesn't get money, even 0.000001%. I didn't start a "producer help fund" here of course :)

      Its about supporting the artists. I see coders as artists too.

    6. Re:Freeloaders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Ok just WHO is paying you to back the ripoff and quite probaly totally ileagle RIAA and friends you do know where to put DRM and all it's baggadge don't you ?.. or do i have to spell it out to you ,

      Oh i am sorry of course you dont understand EHGLISH do you all this copyright crap is purley because the big corperations were not making enough ripoff money from joe public and wanted a way to force the situation in there favour it has NOTHING at all to do with protection of "artists money" it is more to do with if i buy me that yatch my bank balance will be somewhat depleted i know lets rip joe public off for my yatch and get a bit richer in the process " Example Gates microSquish and windBloZe" hotley followed by time warner emi ect ect ect ect..

      When people start waking up and deal with the money grabbing no goods then we can get back to some form or normalitiy.

      Pete .

      American spell check DISSABLED

    7. Re:Freeloaders by astflgl · · Score: 1

      Most companies aren't big, evil, cigar-smoking Republicans sitting in dark rooms plotting economic takeovers to maintain their monopolies.

      The people who work for large companies are, like you say, not big evil republicans putting profit above all else, but if you anthropomorphise a company, it would fit your description pretty well, except i would use "fascist" instead of republican.

      Companies are not about looking after their fellow man, they are about making a profit for their shareholders, and to hell with the consequences (aka externalities)

      Another good exaple is Slavery. A slaver may be a wonderful man, kind to his family and peers etc, but he is still part of a barbaric and monstrous system. The key is to not confuse the individual with the system he is a part of.

      And in my opinion, massive piracy of music and movies is a small price to pay for keeping corporations as much away from a position of control over the creative process as possible.

      --
      sorry
    8. Re:Freeloaders by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I don't know about this. Slavery was a system with no person in actual control of the whole thing. Corporations aren't like this: they have boards of directors, and executive officers. Ultimately, it is those officers who are responsible for the corporation's actions, and who set the direction of the company.

      If you go to the HQ of some 50,000 employee evil megacorp, and talk to different employees, you'll certainly find many differing opinions. Some people will be total goobers, supporting anything the company does. Some people will be rebels, doing their jobs and collecting their paychecks, but otherwise opposing many of their company's views and practices, not voting for company-favored political candidates, etc. Many of these people may wish they could work somewhere else, but circumstances have forced them to stay where they are. Some people just don't care either way; they just want to do their job and go home, and don't really care about what's going on at the upper levels and don't want to think about it. But what's common to all these random employees is that their opinions don't really matter. They don't run the company; they're just tiny cogs in the whole machine.

      However, if you talk to the CxOs, you'll certainly find that they wholly support anything the company is doing, because it was their orders that set the company on this course. So if a company is acting unethically, you can most certainly look at the top people in charge, and blame them personally for this lack of ethics.

    9. Re:Freeloaders by astflgl · · Score: 1

      The boards of directors and executives are answerable to stockholders in that their job is to do anything possible to improve the company's bottom line.

      George Washington was a (reluctant) slaver, and he wasn't such a bad guy. If I go and visit some slavers in some dodgy country, I'm sure they will be some of the nicest and most refined people on the planet. They just happen to be part of a rather nasty institution. It says _nothing_ about them as people.

      The CxO's are in roughly the same position as the wage earners, "you gotta do what you gotta do" (even if it's not 100% good) and if you don't, someone else will. So I don't think blaming any actual person or group is constructive, maybe people should look at changing the structure of corporate motivation or something, or at least making corporations more responsible for their actions. This includes not passing media laws that aren't in the public interest.

      --
      sorry
  23. law?? by Fuzzums · · Score: 4, Insightful

    i didn't know it was the duty of software writers to enforce the law.

    let's look at cars. speeding is prohibited. should cardesigners make it impossible to speed?

    you're not allowed to kill. should bullet makers make bullets that don't kill?

    then why....

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
    1. Re:law?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, then content makers are screwed, because according to you guys, they're bad if they use the law to go after individual infringers.

    2. Re:law?? by Jim_Callahan · · Score: 1

      Eh, the only reason we don't see "bullets that don't kill" is that we can't make bullets smart enough to only target animals or people with violent intent toward the shooter (the things you're legally allowed to kill). Plus, then militaries would function on an entirely different kind of equipment than the rest of us, and the corresponding explosion of black-market firearms would rewuire too many resources to deal with.

      But yeah, if not for these obvious problems, anti-gun nuts would be trying to make gun manufacturers responsible for the actions of those misusing their products. They came a bit closer with the ridiculous trigger-lock law.

      --
      ...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
    3. Re:law?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, but DRM doesn't intelligently prevent "piracy" either.

      It simply prevents ALL uses but the one the rightsholder sees fit to grant... and that is against fair use provisions.

    4. Re:law?? by CylanR77 · · Score: 1

      "...speeding is prohibited. should cardesigners make it impossible to speed?"

      But they already do. Speed governors, rev limiters... your original question still stands [should being the key word], but in terms of this analogy, they're already way ahead of "trusted computing".

      --
      http://cylan.deviantart.com/gallery/
    5. Re:law?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, those have more to do with engine wear and dependibility, along with strict emissions mandates.

      A typical hyundai elantra could run with 100 more hp if they ran it at the same RPM as they do with that engine in korea.

      Unfortunately, this results in greater emissions and also greater engine wear.

      This applies the same to ford, toyota, etc.. they all trade power for dependability and emissions.

    6. Re:law?? by JDLazarus · · Score: 1

      Speed limiters are put on the car for safety, not for speeding reasons. When was the last time you saw a 65mph speed limiter? The majority are listed at 105mph , 125, or 165mph, but some are as high as 195mph, depending on the vehicle. This has to do with the stock set of TIRES included with it oddly. A car that comes with H rated tires is limited at 105mph by default (i.e. - the speed the tires are capable of handling) - a car with V rated tires stock comes with 125, Zs (I believe) 165. Even if the vehicle is incapable of reaching these speeds due to engine power. This is an issue of liability. These manufacturers have placed limiters on the speed the car is allowed to travel due to the tires they have included stock. They don't want lawsuits saying "you gave me a car that could go 150 with tires that only go 105"

  24. The customer is not the only concern these days by sevinkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most of the major content producers I have talked to about DRM services want to get their content out there to customers for reasonable prices and fair levels of control, the problem is that these major studios are for the most part middlemen.

    The reason they require DRM for their online services is the spaghetti of contracts the entertainment industry has built up for themselves of the past several decades. For example if one studio released an album online unprotected, and the artists who created the content can demonstrate that piracy caused a loss in revinue, the content provider can be held legally liable for that loss.

    As long as these studios took reasonable steps to prevent this piracy from occuring, their collective asses are covered, even if the DRM scheme used is cracked down the road.

  25. But also remember by Uber+Banker · · Score: 1

    While an editor he does represent the BBC's public opinion in these matters.

    Plus note the BBC will offer most of its content for download for UK residents (those who fund it) from 2006 onwards. For a television network to offer downloads of its perviously run content (who has downloaded Enterprise or Buffy torrents because they missed the show despite such behaviour being illegal?) this is a serious step forward!

    1. Re:But also remember by mattyrobinson69 · · Score: 1

      They got a new CEO (i think its CEO), who decided the BBC should be more of a public service and less of a private money making machine.

  26. No, DRM is aobut controlling the user... by Kjella · · Score: 1

    Digital rights management is about controlling the data on your machine and deciding who has the rights to run it.

    Is there any problem implementing any level of access control lists (hint: file systems), application integrity checks (hint: firewalls), protected system files (hint: user accounts) in software? No.

    DRM is designed to resist tampering by you, the consumer. Is it created because today you have total power over your data, you have raw and complete access to them. Trusted computing is going to take it away from you and hand it over to a machine that others trust. It is all about disempowering you.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:No, DRM is aobut controlling the user... by hal9000(jr) · · Score: 1

      Trusted computing is going to take it away from you and hand it over to a machine that others trust.

      Shhh, don't tell anyone, but digital media vendors have no reason to "trust" your computer regardless of whether your using a TPM or not.

      The TPM stores stuff. It is not a bulk encryptor. So let's say a MP3 player wants to play a song but the MP3 player needs to use the TPM to unlock something. It asks the TPM for the key, and after assuring the TPM that it is the valid requester of the key, the TPM coughs up it up to the application. Now guess where that secret key is residing? In ram in the clear! It has to be in the clear so the application can decrypt the files.

      Is it created because today you have total power over your data

      You still do with the TPM, see?. Ahahahahaha. Keep that secret between us, OK?

    2. Re:No, DRM is aobut controlling the user... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      There are tens of billions invested in Trusted Computing, and the people behind it are not stupid.

      (1) The TPM can in fact be used for encryption, with the key never existing outside the TPM at all.
      (2) Even if the key is allowed into RAM, the new hardwar specification has RAM that can only be read by the original program that requested the RAM block. Your music player may load the key into memory, but it will be physically impossible for any other program to copy that key out.
      (3) I don't know if they are going to do this in the initial release, but I have seen tons of documentation on ENCRYPTED RAM. The keys to reading that RAM would never leave the CPU. Not only would the key be encrypted in RAM, not only would all of the data be encrypted in RAM, but the software application itself would be encrypted in RAM. Everything is decrypted as it enters the CPU, and encrypted before leaving. So even physically attacking the RAM gets you nothing but encrypted garbage. You can't even attempt to modify the encrypted memory because there are encrypted hash values securing it. If any of the data gets modified outside the CPU then the hash fails to verify and the CPU kills the program dead in its tracks. At that point the only possible attack is to physically rip open the tamper-resistant self-destructing CPU itself.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    3. Re:No, DRM is aobut controlling the user... by hal9000(jr) · · Score: 1

      Both you and Kjella are talking about encrypted ram and enforced restrictions of RAM, features that are not evey implemented yet. Are there chips available that will utlize those features? Or are they even on the horizon? The only one I know of is Intels LeGrande technology and Intel isn't even indicating when that will be shipped.

      Also, the TPM that are in use today, and for the future DON'T do bulk encryption, so the data protection by the TPM is the protection of the encryption keys, which to be used, must be avaialable in RAM in the clear.

      The people who designed the TPM are very smart, but no amount of brains will overcome market forces. Crypto chips are expensive. Getting fabricators to re-engineer the boards is expensive. Supporting multiple OS's with varying degrees of hardware and software for companies that want to use the TPM is expensive. It is highly doubtful that we will ever see draconian enforcement of material via the TPM on a wide scale.

    4. Re:No, DRM is aobut controlling the user... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      encrypted ram...
      Are there chips available that will utlize those features? Or are they even on the horizon?


      CPUs that use encrypted RAM have been around for several years, though never used for the PC market.

      The Longhorn specification requires a hardware mechanism for securing RAM, at least against other programs. Compartmentalized RAM. I haven't seen the specification for this system so I don't know if it mandates encryption, but that would be an obvious method of implementation. Even if it doesn't mandate it, it would be easy to drop in later.

      I admit encrypted RAM is speculation, but I have recently seen quite a lot of work on encrypted RAM from quite a few places and it would be a perfect fit into the existing available Trusted Computing documentation.

      Intels LeGrande technology and Intel isn't even indicating when that will be shipped.

      Actually they are shipping it already inside the Prescott line. The Trust circuitry eats up about 20% of the CPU die. It's not actually active yet, but I'm not sure if it is physically disabled or just software disabled and awaiting activation code. Intel's RAM security system is called Vanderpool and Silverdale. I'm not sure why there are two names, but there seems to be some distinction between them.

      Transmeta is already shipping it inside the Crusoe 5800 and possibly other models.

      AMD's Trusted CPU project is called Presidio. The project is under tight wraps and it took me months just to find out their damn codename for it. The only information to leak out was the name Presidio and that it was "security technology" and that it was "AMD's answer to Intel's Lagrande", and that their RAM security project is called Pacifica. Total information blackout beyond that.

      VIA Technologies has a CPU security system - Padlock - that appears to be the same thing. It has the on-chip RNG and the same encryption algorithms in hardware, but I haven't been able tell for certain if it is a full implementation of the Trusted Computing Group's specification. There's a chance it might be genuinely user friendly hardware support, but I wouldn't bet on it.

      The CELL Processor is documented as having "DRM enforcement" built in, and I'd give 10-to-1 odds that it is an implementation of the exact same spec. In fact the CELL would only need to implement it for the single master CPU. Anything going to and coming from the 8 slave CPU's would be locked down by the single Trusted master CPU acting as a gateway.

      National Semiconductor and Intel and others are building TPMs into various subcomponents like I/O chips. According to the Microsoft spec Longhorn compatible minitors require encryption (presumably a full TPM), as well other peripherals.

      DON'T do bulk encryption

      Maybe I should double check, but I think I recall a function to encrypt/decrypt internally in 2k or 4k blocks. Maybe that's not "bulk", but there's no reason software can't feed through a DRM'd song in blocks like that.

      Crypto chips are expensive

      As of Oct. 2004 they were already available at $4.50 each in lots of a 10,000. The price will only drop as production ramps up, and the cost will be insignifigant when it's right on a CPU die.

      Getting fabricators to re-engineer the boards is expensive.

      Everyone is already spending a fortune doing so. Microsoft simply announced the hardware specs for being Windows Compatible, and no one can seriously survive in the PC hardware business with a product that is not Windows Compatible.

      Samsung is already shipping nothing except TPM systems. A substantial fractions of notebooks already have TPMs. The number of desktop TPM models is increasing. When Longhorn systems hit the shelves no one will be selling anything except fully Trusted Compliant hardware. It's to be the new standard on every single machine.

      Supporting multiple OS's

      Well I'm sure Microsoft isn't going to lose any sleep over that

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  27. Trusted Computing & DRM based Boycott ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If more people would just slow their buying down it would be a short time that the impact would been in the pockets of these corporations. The MPAA and RIAA both need to have some layoffs, lack of money from sales slow down, and to support the boycott, stop what they are calling piracy too, then they would have less money, and no grounds for legal action. The trick is to start now and not later. Using the money, your money aganist you.

    Other areas to slow down on:
    Computer Hardware.
    Computer Software.(proprietary).

    It all matters and the money will talk. Its everyone's right, not to buy if they wish not to, use that right if you don't like where the future is going.
    Why should the poor buy this ?, they work two or more jobs just to be controled ?. If I could tell them, I would say to them, keep your money !, buying computers and the software for them ?, is no good seeing the future that these corporations have in mind. Pay to own nothing, pay to be locked-in, pay to have no rights over what you buy with your money; does not sound like things the poor should be buying into.

  28. Re:Let's baa like sheep (whose really juvenile?) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    In short: DRM protection laws violate the constitution by both granting legislative/regulatory authority to non-congressional entities, and by denying due process of law to individuals being screwed out of perfectly legal fair use by DRM.

    If you want to talk left wing.. let's talk about how DRM turns the US into a communist nation. It undermines personal property rights by placing individual's purchased property in control of centralized ownership, and puts the economy under the command of that same centralized ownership by allowing affirmative regulation of other economic sectors by content cartels.

    1. Copyright establishes monopolies which are counter to capitalist tenets of fair competition. With proper scope though it is beneficial. With the current scope, however, it harms society so a wealthy few can become wealthier.

    "Allowing anybody to restrict illegal copying of their materials is evil! Never mind that the GPL also limits your usage, yet it's okay, while DRM is just plain evil because it doesn't mean you get to rip people off and not pay them."

    2. DRM is not evil because it prevents illegal filesharing, it is evil because, with drm protection laws preventing free market balance of end user rights, it prevents an infinity of perfectly legal fair uses without the required judicial review, and allows copyright holders to write their own copyright law, giving a private entity legislative power against the constitution.

    3. I hear this "property rights" argument from copyright extremists like you all the time, but there is an overlap here between copyright law and personal property rights of individuals.
    Copyright law was set up so that individual uses could only be taken away from the consumer if the rightsholder found economic incentive to do so.
    Anticircumvention law protecting DRM allows copyright holders to rob the public of uses which have no economic impact on them, and without proper judicial review of copyright law to determine if they even have the right to do so.

  29. For an accurate over view on the TPM ... by hal9000(jr) · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... see the article at Secure Enterprise.

  30. Wrong to assume TV is Free(As Beer in US) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    You are making the assumption, wrongly I might add, that in the US all TV is free. In the US only the UHF/VHF broadcasts are free , and even then they may not be.

    This means that in the US if you live in a large metro area you may be able to get the following channels for (Gratis- They aren't really free will explain in a second);

    1. FOX
    2. ABC
    3. NBC
    4. CBS
    5. UPN
    6. WB
    7. PAX (Only in some metro areas)
    8. PBS

    Besides the above stations it is common in large metro areas to have 1 or two independant stations which are typically either religous based or QVC like.

    All of the so called free channels , except PBS, earn money by either 1.) Selling and showing Advertisements and/or 2.) Infomertials (1/2 hr -1 hr Adverts designed to mimic a regular TV show). In addaition to the adverts most broadcast shows also have prod placing- This is where a retailer/manufacture has paid the producer of the show to include their product in shots thus increase demand for the product. This is why typically broadcast shows have the characters using MACS even though only a very small percentage of US computer users use or own a MAC. Sears also does this with ABC's HomeMakeover show.

    In the US if you do not live in a metro area you may only recieve 1 or 2 channels through VHF/UHF broadcast and in some remote areas no channels at all can be recieved clearly.

    Now you have probably noticed that the channel list seems very small compared to what is exported to other countries. Where for example can one watch "South Park" (Comedy Central), "Sex in The City" (HBO/TBS), or "The Sopranos" (HBO). These shows air on either Cable or Satalite TV. In the US if you want to watch more than what you can recieve through UHF/VHF you have to either Pay to get TV through either Cable or Sat (DISH/Direct TV). The fee for cable in most areas is around $50 ($600 USD per year) - $75 per month for extended Cable. Most Cable companies will offer a $15-$20 per month for the local broadcast channels + all the shopping channels + the public access channels (Educational TV for the most part) + a news channel or two. One should note that extended basic does not include HBO annd other "Premium" Channels and those must be purchased on top of the $50 a month fee. The Sat carriers will tend to charge 35 (SBC Basic 60 Channel DISH fee) to 39.99 (Direct TV lowest package) for a number of channels (120). Again these do not include all of the channels and most additional channels cost more money. To make matters worse most Sat and Cable channels still show Adverts and Have infomertials.

    Unlike the UK the US carriers can and do raise rates without giving any reason. If they want more money they can just raise rates. They also tend to change programing (Available Channels) at the whim of the management of the carrier company.

  31. flexibility of copyright law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    surely you're referring to the plastic way the law's been bent to serve to privileged evil elite?

    Rich people are mostly immoral thieves.

  32. Amen, man, amen (mod parent up!) by Phil+Urich · · Score: 1

    That was a very clear and concise explanation of what this is all about; bravo!

    --
    I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
  33. Re:Just my opinion, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not flamebait by any means...mod this up.

  34. Re:Let's baa like sheep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So....why are you here?

  35. Re:What's wrong with "death tax" by Jim_Callahan · · Score: 1

    I mean, it's a tax imposed as a result of death, is it not? Though the objection to it is that it taxes things that have already been taxed, so maybe "double tax" or "ridiculous tax" would be more appropriate...

    Wait, I'm off topic, never mind.

    --
    ...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
  36. Average Internet user by coopseruantalon · · Score: 1

    "So far, iTunes has been a big success, so apparently a lot of consumers have no problem with DRM and online legal music-downloading." http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19991114

  37. Re:What's wrong with "death tax" by AaronGTurner · · Score: 1

    It's a tax that occurs after death, but it is imposed as a result of accruing assets, some of which have not already been taxed, e.g. dividends on stocks and shares, some of which have now been exempted from taxation. In any case double taxation is common, e.g. sales taxes on purchases made with already taxed income. AFAIK the IRS doesn't allow you to discount the sales tax paid on every item purchased against your federal taxes. Also you could argue that things such as hunting licences are a form of tax on hunting, etc.

  38. Generaliation by Peaker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some of us simply do not believe copyright law is just, and think that it is draconian and absurd.

    Obeying laws, even absurd ones, is generally good, in order to avoid contempt for the law. Unfortunately, in the case of copyright, obeying the law means empowering the lobbyists that keep the law alive and strengthen it.

    The best way is to avoid copyrighted works, and when they are not avoided, at least do not pay those who push for the continuation of the copyright regime.

    Piracy is name-calling, and the reason copyright infringement is so common is because people do not find the copyright deal reasonable anymore, ever since the digital revolution.

    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all laws into contempt. -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

    Unfortunately, due to this law and others, law is already in contempt by the vast majority of the public...

  39. Untrustworthy Computing Platform by Jamesday · · Score: 1
    The key point for consumers to remember is that the Trusted Computing Platform makes their computers an Untrustworthy Computing Platform.

    It does so by allowing vendors to take back things you have already purchased (like the TiVo and Apple examples) and by making it harder to keep the works you purchase as you change computers every three to five years and find incompatibilities or changes in operating system or application vendors locking you out of your own property.

  40. are we gonna be protecting everything? by sevinkey · · Score: 1

    I have yet to see where any of the entities involved with trusted computing want to password protect everything... they seem to want to give users the option to protect their own data, and allow content providers to protect their files.

    I doubt a local Mom and Pop grocery store would want to use these features, so I doubt they will ever be required to. Microsoft does not want to be known as the company that loses everyone's vital business data.

    1. Re:are we gonna be protecting everything? by Baricom · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see where any of the entities involved with trusted computing want to password protect everything... they seem to want to give users the option to protect their own data, and allow content providers to protect their files. (emphasis mine)

      Exactly. Giving content owners the ability to protect their files in that manner means the public is cheated. Remember, copyright is a temporary license from society to a creator.

      If content "owners" want the economic advantage of a near-monopoly on their work, they have to abide by their end of the deal. They have to give up their monopoly in the future to ensure society progresses, and they have to allow fair use of their work today for educational and criticism purposes. If they are not willing to do that, they are not a party to the contract that gives them the monopoly rights in the first place.

      If you allow the media companies to lock down their products and keep the key, what guarantee does society have that they can unlock the vault in the future?

    2. Re:are we gonna be protecting everything? by sevinkey · · Score: 1

      Great point on copyright. I'm not sure what the copyright duration on creative works is at the moment, but life + 99 years comes to mind. I hope I'm wrong on that, I'd rather see something more like 14 years and then the works are put into the public domain and available from the library of congress. I think that would be a fair compromise for society and copyright owners.

      I wouldn't mind seeing regulation that requires the content owners or DRM license providers maintain the keys for all of the content encrypted and placed for sale. Working for a DRM provider, I know this is already done since we need to keys to be able to generate licenses for content. Maybe these keys should be registered with the gov't or some authorized third party company.

    3. Re:are we gonna be protecting everything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what the copyright duration on creative works is at the moment, but life + 99 years comes to mind.

      No, that's what you get for each song they catch you sharing...

      ...in Soviet America.

    4. Re:are we gonna be protecting everything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well copyrights used to last what was it 10 yrs then it was extended to 15 before the turn of the century. Then along came a mouse named mickey and his owner who started paying opps i meant creativly convincing certain goverment officials to vote to extend copyright for even longer period and since then everytime mickey comes close to the public domain copyright laws suddenly get extended again to the point that it's gotten to be called the mickey mouse law. And every other copyright that came along after mickey is just along for the ride and benifiting from this.

      Our tax dollars hard at work putting senetors and congressmen in washington so Disney can line their pockets with green to help out poor o'l mickey.

      Welcome to the U.S.S.A. (Union of Soviet Socialist America) Where flag waves you!

  41. I know why... by mangu · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't know why people still complain about an "obsolete business model" when record labels have already embraced services like Napster and iTunes.


    Have you ever checked the prices they charge? Comparing prices for online music with the price of store bought CDs one gets the impression that the manufacture and distribution of CDs has a negative cost.


    I would gladly pay for online music if the price was in the same order of magnitude as the cost the distributors have. But when they charge something like $1/song, and I must pay for all the downloading cost, something seems basically unfair.


    The "business model" is still obsolete, it's done in the same way John D. Rockefeller used to do business. It's a cartel (or a "trust", as it was called in the late 19th century) that fixes prices and imposes artificial barriers to competition. Things like the broadcast bit and closed binary formats have the same use as the different train gauges the "robber barons" of the 19th century used to push independent railroads out of business.


    No, the media cartel uses unethical business methods, and should be broken up. No new legislation is needed, any honest government could get rid of the ??AA using the same laws that were used to break up Standard Oil and AT&T. Meanwhile, what you call "piracy" I call "freedom fighting". Happy Boston Tea Party!

    1. Re:I know why... by hotsauce · · Score: 1

      But when they charge something like $1/song, and I must pay for all the downloading cost, something seems basically unfair.

      do you pay for gas (petrol) to the store? bus fare? teleportation?

      otherwise i agree with you

    2. Re:I know why... by mangu · · Score: 1
      do you pay for gas (petrol) to the store?


      I agree that my mentioning the download cost wasn't the best analogy, because one does pay the transportation cost for physical goods, too.


      Yes, suppose I'm looking for a new dishwasher. I could get a lower price if I had a car big enough to carry it home from a "factory outlet" store. But since all I have is a cheap subcompact, instead of an expensive SUV, I must pay a higher price at a store with "free" home delivery. If all one does on the internet is web surfing, then 56kbps is enough. But to buy music, one must pay the somewhat higher price of broadband.


      But my point was that they charge about the same price for a song downoloaded as they charge for a song on a CD, without any compensation to the buyer. Perhaps a better analogy would be if they sold you the right to download the plans for building a dishwasher for the same price of a new dishwasher.


      In online music sales all you get is the information, and you must pay for all the media where the information is stored. They save all the costs of manufacturing a CD and its box, of printing the labels, of renting a retail store, all the associated costs of that store, such as electric power, heating, cleaning, security, etc, the salary of the sales people on that store.


      And they charge you the full price for each song, exactly as if they were giving you a CD. The "new business model" means they save a bundle on the distribution and pass nothing of the savings to the buyer. But they are vey willing to pass the added hassle and cost of preventing copyright infringement to you.

    3. Re:I know why... by bonch · · Score: 1
      Have you ever checked the prices they charge? Comparing prices for online music with the price of store bought CDs one gets the impression that the manufacture and distribution of CDs has a negative cost.


      DVDs typically cost $20. An album on iTunes is .99 per song, and typically nine bucks to buy the entire album. I honestly don't see how you could possibly consider that overpriced. It's half the normal cost of a CD at the store.
    4. Re:I know why... by quarkscat · · Score: 1

      DRMed hardware, like MSFT's "Palladium" project, will find increasing support from both government and industry for more reasons than just protecting IP. DRMed hardware means the end to insider whistleblowers that reveal emails/memos indicating wrongdoing. It also makes the regulation and oversight of business via legislation like Sarbanes/Oxley much more difficult. The DRM issues that the **AA stormtroopers are fighting for are a drop in the bucket compared to organizations trying to protect themselves from either public scrutiny, or public prosecution.

    5. Re:I know why... by jgritz · · Score: 2, Informative

      This bottom of this page does a nice job of breaking down the costs of recording and associated costs. Article is by Steve Albini, quite a well known producer.

    6. Re:I know why... by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 1

      a costs $20

      Now look back at what you wrote, and tell me how much does a CD with 14 or 15 tracks costs?

      --
      Have a nice day!
    7. Re:I know why... by Zeinfeld · · Score: 1
      Now look back at what you wrote, and tell me how much does a CD with 14 or 15 tracks costs?

      Depends which band we are talking about. The Beatles produced quite a few albums with ten or more hit tracks. Most don't have more than five tracks worth listening to in their careers let alone on the same album.

      So $5 for the good tracks is much less than $15 for a CD with three good tracks and 12 fillers.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    8. Re:I know why... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yes, suppose I'm looking for a new dishwasher. I could get a lower price if I had a car big enough to carry it home from a "factory outlet" store. But since all I have is a cheap subcompact, instead of an expensive SUV, I must pay a higher price at a store with "free" home delivery.

      This is why you need a hatchback car. I just bought a nice Maytag dishwasher around 6 months ago, and loaded it into my subcompact Integra after folding the rear seats down. I've also hauled La-Z-Boy recliners this way.

    9. Re:I know why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'm a business/economics student, and I'd just like to point out that you're ignoring volume. The production and distribution of music entails both fixed (unrelated to the number of units sold) and variable (per-unit) costs. If the volume of CD sales is substantially higher than the volume of online sales, the profit per unit for CDs could indeed be higher, even with a lower price. It's all down to the specifics of the particular businesses.

      Mind you, I'm not claiming this is the case, only that it is a very likely scenario. If it is the case, increasing online music sales would eventually reverse the situation, assuming production costs are lower (which I think they probably are, although maintaining software, servers, Internet bandwidth, et al. can be quite expensive).

  42. License Fee by Robmurg · · Score: 1

    This comment alone from the BBC is worth this year's license fee. (Non-UK readers - the BBC is funded by a compulsory annual license for each household owning a tv ~150USD. You can end up in prison if you own a TV and have no license.)

    1. Re:License Fee by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      Wow. I guess the UK has solved all other forms of crime.

    2. Re:License Fee by Goth+Biker+Babe · · Score: 1

      One's that matter, kind of. We have a sixth of the population of the US and one hundred and fiftieth of the gun crime.

  43. Not True by argoff · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The sad thing about Trusted Computing is that copyright enforcement is probably the one security problem it does not provide significant leverage for. Copyright is break once run anywhere.

    This is not true, because efforts to impose "trusted computing" on all hardware by force of law. Even if an encryption scheme is broken, the media material could have embedded noise in it with a digital signature information and hardware could be mandated not to process any digital media or information unless it's properly signed.

    1. Re:Not True by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      This is not true, because efforts to impose "trusted computing" on all hardware by force of law. Even if an encryption scheme is broken, the media material could have embedded noise in it with a digital signature information and hardware could be mandated not to process any digital media or information unless it's properly signed.

      Ok, so lets say I have some DRM'd music. I can only play it on some trusted hardware. Now, if I crack the encryption and grab the raw audio, I can easilly destroy any digital watermark that's in the audio track and reencode it as an MP3/OGG/whatever. This would be unsigned. Yes, you can now have some hardware which will refuse to play that audio because it's unsigned, but that's not going to happen:

      1. It would prevent me from playing unsigned audio to which I own the copyright (e.g. audio I created myself), thus not acceptable to a very large number of (legitimate) users.
      2. What about all the older hardware out there? I have 15 year old sound cards kicking around still which do a perfectly fine job of playing audio.
      3. Building a simple DAC is *EASY* - yes they can legislate that it's illegal but it's basically unenforcable to stop people doing what is essentially a school electronics project.

      Basically as soon as the DRM is cracked then the content is essentially in the public domain - there's nothing you can do to prevent people from playing it. I honestly can't see the "trusted computing" crap to be much more than a minor headache for copyright infringers - just like CSS.

    2. Re:Not True by makomk · · Score: 1

      This is not true, because efforts to impose "trusted computing" on all hardware by force of law. Even if an encryption scheme is broken, the media material could have embedded noise in it with a digital signature information and hardware could be mandated not to process any digital media or information unless it's properly signed.

      So then anyone who wanted to distribute music would have to pay some organisation to sign it? That'd have the nice side-effect of stopping hobbyists distributing their music.

      Basically, any scheme attempting to stop "break once, run everywhere" would have either this effect or involve allowing the **AA orsome other body to prevent arbitary files from being accessed/distributed at will (*cough*1984*cough*). And it still wouldn't affect legacy hardware.

  44. Only analog copies allowed by erice · · Score: 1

    There is no way to allow users to listen to/read/watch content that prevents that user from generating a copy of it

    True. However, a trusted computing system can prevent access to the unencrypted digital form. The player software would disable any non-encrypted digital outputs. The OS would not allow an unsigned driver to load. Getting a driver signed would involve signing a legally binding agreement to honor DRM.

    Analog I/O's will still be free and unecrypted content could still be brought into the system. However, one could envision a time when those go away too. Analog video might only be available inside the monitor. Analog audio might be available only in the speaker cables.

  45. Re:What's wrong with "death tax" by MikeCapone · · Score: 1

    No, it's an estate tax. Not every person who dies gets it. Only people with over 1$ million.

    The birth tax though - because of the deficit every newborn owns 33K$ - is imposed to every person born.

  46. It is indeed an issue of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I just thought I'd throw in my own $0.02 worth with a tale of my own experience.

    When my brother and I were kids, there was a program on television which we both enjoyed (this would have been around 1985 or so). There was a two-part episode at the end of the first season and we taped the first part with the idea of recording the second part the next week. Well, the program was pre-empted by various things every week for the next several months (e.g. President Reagan, football, etc.). Finally, the second part was broadcast and of course, we taped it. We still have the tape (the show was cancelled in its second season). Since it does not appear that this program will ever be available on DVD or other home video format, I transferred the recorded video to DVD using my computer with TV tuner card. I made one copy for myself and one for my brother.

    This incident represents what I believe will become a major problem with current copyright laws and the use of Digital Restrictions Management and Treacherous Computing. In the future, it may no longer be possible to preserve the past (the future's past) due to the short-sightedness of the content owners. Using the broadcast flag would prevent recording. Even if the recording were allowed, it would prevent me from transferring to an archival media (DVD or it's next generation, whatever that may be). New DVD burners are being made that prevent one from transferring a VHS movie with Macrovision to DVD (HP's old Carly Fiorina trumpeted this at the last CES). Instead, shows could be broadcast and disappear into the ether, never to be seen again. Of course, it could be argued that most shows broadcast today are released to DVD soon after the end of the season, but what if they are not? As an example, Malcolm in the Middle -- season 1 was released on DVD a few years ago, but where is season 2? Although this is a silly example, it illustrates why individuals have archived broadcasts in the past and should be allowed to do so in the future.

    Why will I not be able (at least as the law currently stands) to buy a device that will record HDTV to the next-gen DVD format (whether that be Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, or HVD)? This would represent nothing more than the status quo as it now exists with analog TV and VCR's.

    Furthermore, a principal of abandonment needs to be established in copyright law (i.e. If the content has not been sold or actively promoted for sale for a length of time, it should enter the public domain).

    Trust is a two-way street. In general, I trust those who trust me. How can the public trust the content creation (recycling?) companies after they have abused our trust for so long?

  47. UK isn't a corporate whore like the USA by BestNicksRTaken · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    The US is no longer the land of the free, it's the land of the copyright lawyer and the media companies who own senators *cough* Hatch *cough*

    Free speech my arse!

    --
    #include <sig.h>
    1. Re:UK isn't a corporate whore like the USA by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      I know I'm not supposed to respond to flamebait, but...

      Free speech my arse!

      Copyright violation is not free speech on your part, it is merely mindless parroting of somebody else's free speech. Don't blame others if you have nothing to say and no way to say it.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  48. Uh.. timothy? by fullofangst · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "From the the article"

    Come on timmy, get some skills man :)

  49. PPC? by yesheh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is this technology related to the intel platforms only or is it also going to be present on PPC, Alpha, MIPS, etc? ie. is it req'd by law on every computer or is it just required on new x86s/64s?.. I'd much rather stay with ppc anyway, risc chips are way better...

    1. Re:PPC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I know, its not required by law at all. It appears to be hardware manufacturers pandering to the content recycling companies (RIAA, MPAA, et al.).

  50. You haven't been paying attention. by Kjella · · Score: 1

    It asks the TPM for the key, and after assuring the TPM that it is the valid requester of the key, the TPM coughs up it up to the application. Now guess where that secret key is residing? In ram in the clear! It has to be in the clear so the application can decrypt the files.

    a) It is living in its own memory space, only available to the requesting application. The OS must enforce this to be certified (and the BIOS will verify the OS, and the trusted computing root will verify the BIOS), and it will not let debuggers or any other software access it either.

    b) The physical memory may be encrypted to protect against physical listeners (e.g. a shim between the RAM and the motherboard). Basicly, all data to/from RAM would pass through a crypto unit, just like an encrypted container on disk.

    You obviously don't know enough about how it will work. I'm sorry to say, but it is a well thought out system which, barring bugs, is damn strong.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  51. Social problem? by microbox · · Score: 1

    The trouble is, DRM is a (poor) technical fix for a social problem

    Maybe law should be _in synnc_ with the society they purpote to structure and serve.

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
  52. Solution by aepervius · · Score: 1

    (DISCLAIMER : I do not know how the TCPA cpu will handle protected file.) I do not know what sort of "encryption" layer will the CPU do, but I doubt this will be something complicated (If it was a slow encryption then imagine the playback time). If this is something which is hackable, then the solution is simple : Keep forever a 3Ghz Pentium somewhere without trusted computing then remove the HD from the trusted computing PC, put it as slave HD in the normal PC, hack all files trough, play back, burn on CD whatever. And for non-protected file you can directly burn them.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  53. In related news by Cycnus · · Score: 1
    Microsft Press indicated that they now have technology to enforce DRM on thr books they publish by requiring readers to use a special pair of glasses that will be permanently bolted onto their face.
    The device will ensure that only the genuine reader will be able to access the content of the book by demodulating the photons emitted by the book printed using a special patented process.

    Initial trials have shown the product to work well, but concurrent technology from other publishers and technology giants such as Adobe propose different optical systems, requiring a reader to be fitted with multiple layers of technology, most incompatible with each other.
    "The issue", explains Adobe's DRMopt+ Chief Researcher John Begood, "is that each system is influencing the output of the other. This will be a tough one to solve, but at the moment, it's low priority as that choice is in the hands of the user."

    Shares in both Microsoft Press and Adobe International hvae increase by respectively 12 and 8 percent following the annoucement.

  54. Are they all called Bill? by McFadden · · Score: 1
    This BBC article by Bill Thompson is balanced and concise

    Crikey! That's a first. He normally spouts the most unbelieavable, ill-informed guff...

    1. Re:Are they all called Bill? by billthom · · Score: 1

      No I don't. I'd like to think that it's all balanced, reasonable and well-argued :-)

  55. DRM shouldn't be allowed to work by Cycnus · · Score: 1
    If the market really dictates what it wants, I can't see how DRM can work without people retaliating at some point.

    The real basic flaw in DRM is that it alienates legitimate users: it's harder for them to listen to their files, harder to play their games or use their software than for those who just get cracked copies.

    Buy a song from iTune (btw, the phonetic pronoucination of "tune" in French is slang for "money", just thought I would share that) and it won't play on anything else than Apple software or Apple hardware. It means you get vendor lock-in as each publishing house devise its own rules about what is acceptable and what is not.
    People can't buy from anyone else once they start with one a publising house; not because they don't have the illusion of choice, but because it becomes completely impractical to have more than a single, maybe two for those courageous enough, music suppliers.

    2 out of 3 times when I buy a game with my hard-earned money, I run into issues when installing or trying to play it because of DRM.
    You then have to spend hours in the user forums, publisher's knowledge bases or unofficial websites to find out that the game won't play because the plublisher doesn't like that particular CD-R/W in your machine or something equally studpid.

    In the end, I often have to resort to a pirated copy or a crack to get the game to play on my machine. A game that I bought in its original form!

    How do you think I feel after spending all that money, all that time, all that frustration trying to do the right thing because I understand that people who work on these products need to make a living?

    I feel cheated, alienated, and I'm really not enclined any longer to buy a DRM product just to try it: ended the CD purchases of groups I don't know, ended the games that I might like.
    But I won't download them for free either: I just don't play games anymore, and I get and pay my music from people who actually "get it", like http://www.magnatune.com/.

  56. Older PCs value will raise .. by Udderdude · · Score: 1

    Older PCs will be in demand if this actually passes. Imagine a P3-800 selling for $1000. :P

  57. The fundamental trouble with Trusted Computing by Shokac · · Score: 1
    It will not work because of the fundamental flaw at the heart of the system: in order for the purchaser to view the content it has to be unlocked. Once it is unlocked then someone, somewhere, will figure out a way to make a copy of the unlocked version. And once an unlocked version leaks onto the network it will be uncontrollable.

    Then we shall watch encrypted movies like peoples in Matrix. And keep unlocked version in our mind.

    At least, until someone figure out how to DRM our thoughts.

  58. TC only fully protects programs and hidden data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't make an analog copy of a computer program you are running by filming your screen with a camcorder.
    So TC will only fully protect programs and their associated data files (provided part of this data is not displayed on the screen, and it usually is true)

    This why MS will be the main winner with TC.

  59. Re:Just my opinion, but... by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

    "Perhaps we need to find ways to stop companies inserting "Everything is subject change" clauses in their contracts?"

    Considering that a contract is an agreement between two (or more) parties specifying acceptable behaviour, an open-ended clause like that should be illegal since it makes the whole concept of a pre-arranged agreement void.

    --
    Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  60. Re:Let's baa like sheep (whose really juvenile?) by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

    "DRM protection laws violate the constitution by both granting legislative/regulatory authority to non-congressional entities, and by denying due process of law to individuals being screwed out of perfectly legal fair use by DRM"

    Er, no. It isn't anything of the sort, since anyone citing DRM protection laws must work within the terms of the legislation and regulations; they are not free to rework the definitions, as you are on /., so these laws don't violate the constitution at all (sadly).

    Any restrictions added by DRM are protected under contractual law, since the willful purchase of DRM protected material implies a contract that was accepted at time of sale, even without an express contract being signed. Accepting a TOS from a supplier sets it in stone.

    "[Copyright] undermines personal property rights by placing individual's purchased property in control of centralized ownership..."

    Subject to the terms of service or other implied or express agreements made at time of sale. If you don't want to surrender your rights, don't enter into the agreement, it's as simple as that.

    "Copyright establishes monopolies which are counter to capitalist tenets of fair competition."

    You are assuming that "equivalent" means the same as "identical", which is an extremely narrow definition of "competition" (and not the generally accepted one). Two different punk bands on different labels are equivalent, not identical, but they are still competing for sales. The fact that the music industry is a cartel (NOT a monopoly) engaged in price fixing has very little to do with copyright, and is almost entirely due to the major labels (a) being the only significant source of capital and (b) controlling the promotional channels through payola and preventing true alternatives advertising effectively to the mass market.

    "...with drm protection laws preventing free market balance of end user rights, it prevents an infinity of perfectly legal fair uses without the required judicial review..."

    There aren't an "infinity of perfectly legal fair uses". Fair use is quite limited and very specifically codified (try reading copyright law sometime), and does not extend to individuals making themselves alternative distribution outlets on a whim (since, reasonably, $1 for a song does not represent a substantial capital investment warranting control of a work). Thus, DRM is not preventing "free market balance" any more than existing copyright law, even if it is inconvenient.

    "Copyright law was set up so that individual uses could only be taken away from the consumer if the rightsholder found economic incentive to do so."

    Wrong. Again, read the copyright law (unamended, if you like). There is no mention of "the consumer"; copyright is granted automatically and IS NOT CONDITIONAL on economic incentive or any other factor. Copyright is exercised (or not) at the sole discretion of the author of the work or duely appointed representatives. It was created to allow authors time to profit from works, yes, but (as the GPL demonstrates) potential profit is not the ONLY condition determining the application of copyright, the law was NEVER worded the way you suggest.

    "Anticircumvention law protecting DRM allows copyright holders to rob the public of uses which have no economic impact on them, and without proper judicial review of copyright law to determine if they even have the right to do so."

    iTMS permits sharing over a local network, which actually exceeds fair use provisions. The terms under which a work is distributed is, however, a the subject of a contract (either spelled out in the TOS or implied by the presence of DRM) which the customer is free to accept or reject at time of purchase; if DRM is a condition of the sale, you as a consumer are free to reject the offer or challenge it's validity by launching a civil suit (which I doubt would be successful, since the offer was not accepted under duress). But if you have accepted the terms of the sale, then choose to reneg on your part of the agreement by defeating the DRM rather than using legal means then a penalty applies and that's when judicial review comes in.

    That's just the way it is...whether I agree with it is another matter.

    --
    Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  61. Oh okay. by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    I guess being knifed to death is okay.

  62. treacherous computing?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think it would be treacherous to live in a world of a billion connected devices withOUT secure computing.

    Trusted Computing simply secures the platform for which services run. These services can be VPN, APN, SingleSign On, Secure Browser/Login, ..., and lastly DRM.

    DRM is merely hardened by Trusted Computing. If the content owner implements a policy to require trusted platform access to a movie, ebook, cartoon, chatroom, etc, then you will need to have it, because the creator requests it. Otherwise, you are free to not watch that movie, or participate in that chatroom or read the ebook.

    This secure platform doesn't do anything except remove your right to "choose" to be a thief. So the only people complaining are thieves who want something for free. And they are complaining to the wrong group.

    Trusted Computing does not equal DRM.

    DRM equals DRM.

    Trusted Computing platforms will create the possibility of a slew of new services that have nothing to do with DRM. Portable authentication, epassports, VPN, secure storage, etc. With Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPPA, etc. already on board, your medical records will be more thoroughly protected.

    Without trusted computing, if someone were to hack the server at the hospital and change your medical records to prescribe something you were allergic to, this would be more devastating than a physical attack.

  63. Trusted computing -- Are we there yet ? by dinesh.kallath · · Score: 1

    Though DRM is a vital use of Trusted Computing, I guess we should not ignore the potential of TC in other aspect like secure storage, remote attestation and process isolation. The major factor which makes people to think it is not worth what it say's it can is because of unavailability of TC enabled solutions. Not many companies are into TC and those companies who are into TC do not have a complete TC enabled solutions. Many of them does not have process isolation feature built in it. This feature must be inbuilt in the operating system. I guess we all have to wait for the M$ longhorn OS to release (provided they do it). What do you guyz say about this !!!!