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New York Computerizes its Subway System
Iphtashu Fitz writes "New York City's Metropolitan Transit Authority launched it's first fully computer controlled subway line this month. The `L' Line of the MTA that connects the southern part of Manhattan with Brooklyn was picked for this pilot program because of its relatively short length and the fact that it doesn't share tracks with any other lines. Trains on this line no longer have conductors on board, and only a single driver in the front to monitor all the systems.
What's the big deal, you may ask? After all, cities like San Francisco and Paris already have computerized subway lines. Well, having recently celebrated its 100th anniversary the MTA is one of the oldest subway systems in the United States, and one of the largest in the world. If all goes well, the MTA will continue to expand automated service to the rest of the subway system over the next 20 years. But just how safe and secure will these new automated lines be? The radio links that provide data communication between the trains and the control center are encrypted, but how long until a hacker manages to crack it?"
Worry more about the failsafes. Are they independent systems, or would a single point of failure allow to trains to attempt to pass through each other? A good failsafe system should keep passengers safe from accident even if some cracker gets in. Hopefully it won't be a matter of life and death because some programmer who actually worked on the system suffered a brain-fart and assumed 1 based instead of 0.
As for the 20 year estimate, that sounds more the result of negotiations with the transit workers union than ability to get things switch over. You know City Hall, when it comes to a budget, they suddenly know the value of each penny and would switch the whole thing over in a couple years, tops.
On the subject of anniversaries... 2005 will be the 50th of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
They probably already have.
Only if DVD-Jon has an MTA-Bob counterpart
The `L' Line of the MTA
Man, that just brought back horrific memories of sendmail M4 syntax.
This sounds like the beginning of another crappy TV movie...
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Yes No Cancel
Does this mean that now, when the train breaks down every week, the MTA will just blame it on hackers?
In New York, train dwell times--time spent in stations--can be frustratingly long, especially during rush hours. Besides people pushing and shoving to get on the train, you've also got the jokers who hold the doors for their friends who're still running down the stairs.
Without a conductor, who's going to yell at everyone to stop holding the doors? How does this work in other automated systems, like Paris's Météor?
I was in Jr High when BART was being built. Our school's computer classes were given access to the SINGER computer that was setup to run BART.
We as students had great funny trying out the different options avaiable at the time. We tried to get into train control programs to see what we could do.
I think the guys at BART were using us to test security on system. One week we would be able to run train control and "race" trains (actually just the train objects, the tracks were not even layed yet!) and the following week we weren't.
MTA in should let students help in debugging the logic... because we as students did not know what was or was to work... we just played.
You wouldn't even need to use them as hostages per se. Being underground and cut off from escape routes they're already hostages of a sort. The Daegu Subway disaster showed what happened when a fire goes out of control, and the Tokyo nerve gas attack was nasty as well. The TGV train also had a tunnel fire that was really awful. You don't need to take people hostages in the conventional sense -- you can do plenty from more remote locations.
Not sure how that figures into computer-controlled systems. The majority of the casualties in the Daegu fire were the result of human error, but I still feel more comfortable with the idea of humans at the helm. Dunno.
If the system is programmed properly, then they should be able to easily replace the encryption module and rebuild the software. As long as they change keys every so often and increase the key strength as cpu power increases nobody will crack it. The real quesiton is, are they going to do that? I'm betting no. Let me tell you, I don't mind the subway. But I don't want to be stuck on it for many hours with many scary people.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
You might be able to ID each train by its engine's impedance to current flow on a segment of track, though that might be affected by the load on the electric motor.
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seems that recently a portion of the subway burnt down and when the guys went down to repair it they found that the hardware driving the system dated back to the 1930's. After more digging they found that the original systems laid in the early 1900's till 1920 were still operating and actually in daily use in many other parts of the subway. point is that thing is working well that they dont want to touch the thing. the other fact is that there is no way they are going to get the thing changed without majorly affecting the daily workings of the system.
Trains on this line no longer have conductors on board
I dunno about the rest of you, but I want a conductor on the train. Things like having a human look outside the train to make sure nobody is about to get on when the doors close, having someone on the train in case of an emergancy, having someone on the train that is a detterent to crime (just imagine, would a would-be rapist be more or less likely to rape a woman if a conductor was walking up and down the cars).
And part of me feels bad for the guy losing the job, the conductor.
Continue reading the news story:
To have a truly integrated system, the city would have to continue buying all its equipment from Siemens AG, effectively giving it a monopoly.
This also raises a red flag. One company that will in effect control the whole parts system? How can we know we won't get hosed with the price?
Even if they do autimate, lets keep the conductor. Someone who knows how the train runs. Someone who can over-ride the computers if needed. Every vessel needs her captin.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
"I dont know about you but I'm more comfortable with things the old way."
Wait, why?
How is hacking the train system and having people in predetermined locations any less complicated than holding up the engineer driving the train and forcing him to stop it?
Your plan:
1. Hack Train System.
2. Stop Train at Pre-determined location
3. Have baddies with guns at location to hold hostages.
My plan:
1. Use gun to stop train.
2. Use gun to hold hostages.
Not sure why you'd want to go through the trouble of all that hacking for essentially no gain.
Take a look at the way the power grid works (or is intended to work). The big North America power shutdown two summers ago was that a power plant in north eastern United States sent bad data to the grid, which triggered a shutdown. It's better to be safe than sorry.
While I agree it could have probably tried to isolate the problem more rather than a full shutdown, I'm sure it was designed this way for good reason with more serious problems in mind.
If signaling gets interrupted, really all trains should assume the worst- that there is another train or object right in front of them and stop. Now this means that anyone with a jammer above ground of some sort could shut down the subway line... but again the lesser of two evils.
They should really consider instead some sort of 'data' rail or something. I wonder if data over the power rail works with such high voltage?
How are they going to take into account kids on the tracks and stuff. I realize this is underground and a subway, but there have been cases where kids explore the tunnels late in the evenings when the trains are sparse. You can get to most of them through various access points taht are often pretty accessable to those with some intuition and a willingness to climb.
-M
when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
What the MTA really needs to do is publish realtime subway position info. On billboards in the stations, on their website, on automated phone lines, as a pager/sms subscription/request service. Millions of us use it daily, wasting millions of hours of America's most productive workforce as we wait for trains, miss express connections, clog stations. The uncertainty keeps many people using cars and taxis, which make the roads even worse. Automating subways will save a few million a year in conductor costs, out of an $8B budget, which will be lost every day in the productivity of our workers. But I guess MTA contractors don't get a cut of the productivity gains from sensible priorities. Thanks Mayor Bloomberg, and Governor Pataki (who controls the MTA), and Sir Giuliani, who blew the only real chance of taking the subway back from the state for the people who it actually serves.
--
make install -not war
Curious Kid #1: Ohhh... neeeaaato!
Curious Kid #2: Neeato! No driver!
Curious Kid #1: What's that at the end of the tunnel?
Curious Kid #2: A headlight?
Alarmed Passenger: A HEADLIGHT! HEEEEELLLLP! Somebody stop the train!
Computers don't:
1) get drunk.
2) get distracted. (Chicago collision recently)
3) fall asleep.
All of which have killed people in the past. People can whine all they want about how dangerous it is not to have a person running the trains. Personally, I'm happier. Controlling trains in 1D isn't that hard folks. Not at all like flying an airplane, where autopilot has been accepted for decades.
On the BART or DC's Metro, the displays that tell you when the next train is coming are really just there to calm your impatience- normally the train you're waiting for is the only one you can take anyhow.
In New York City, which has an enormously complex subway system, it's different. If you're standing in the Times Square subway station, you can choose from at least seven different subway lines, radiating in all directions.
Without a status display, New Yorkers are reduced to leaning over the edge of the platform to peer down a darkened tunnel for the telltale glint of subway headlights when deciding to wait for the 3 or jump on the 1. Forget about running upstairs to check for the R- you have to go with your gut that the IRT generally comes more frequently than the BMT (how's that for some old school NY goodness?)
The most exciting thing the article mentions are the status displays (grafitti resistant, I hope) that give you a running diplay of approaching trains and their time to arrival.
New Yorkers are notoriously impatient, and a large part of why we're so rude is having to deal with the daily hassles of getting from one end of the stinkin' island to another. I guarantee these status screens will attract so many eyeballs that they'll pay for themselves with supplemental advertising within months.
Marc Siry || interactive media professional, motorcycle enthusiast ||
I'm pretty sure you have a better chance getting your ass kicked on the subway, then a cracker hacking the system and the train crashing...
I am seeing a trend that cities are doing. They are installing tons of camera's, in the 1000's range. I think Chicago now has over 3000 camera's the police can use. I got a ticket in the mail a few weeks ago, it was a camera attached to a radar gun. They are removing people, and adding technology. Technology can't think, it can just do what it's programmed to do. And you are right, if terrorists knock out these systems, or hack them, then what? They will be watching us, controling our trains, and controling our electricity. Maybe law enforecement is making a honey pot, I dunno.
But I doubt terrorists would hack the system to hijack a train. They would just program them to run into each other at high speed. Terrorists don't care about stopping one train, they want to make people afraid to use the trains at all.
There is some psychological comfort of having a conductor. A conductor would force terrorists to come on the train, because if he saw an oncomming train on the same track, he could stop his train. It would take a boat load of osama's to hijack the train I would be on. Then the train passengers could get revenge for 9/11. But it would take one hacker to reprogram the train route and what tracks it uses.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
I wonder if instead of using radio, if they could devise a way to send the signals down the track? That way the hacker would have to risk their life to try to take over the train.
SYSOP ('sih-sop) n.: the guy laughing at your typing.
So this is a basic Semaphor and locking algorithm.
Pretty much make sure that the trains don't use the same track (resources).
Have a timer for the station waits and an attendant to help enforce them (again locking to ensure the doors are all closed)- maybe some sort of fine for trying to enter after an orange light comes on or something (read: money grab).
Most slashdot readers could probably write this in C, Perl, Assembly, etc in a matter of a couple hours. DESPITE this, it's the actual signalling that becomes more difficult. Getting the trains to do what they're supposed to do based on your structure.
Somehow the word WIRELESS severely concerns me in this process. Have switches and read status using ifrared or something as you pass every few yards/metres.
-M
when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
Look at the last "triumph" of the MTA... the MetroCard. How much does the MTA pay to the failed defense contractor who provided the somewhat-reliable MetroCard infrastructure? How much does the MTA pay each year for MetroCard media (of course, only said former defense contractor can provide these magstripe-laden pieces of plastic)? And based on these "savings," how many token booths have been closed? (Extend this to the extended number of muggings in the now-unsupervised subway stations...)
If I weren't such a dedicated capitalist, I'd swear that the money was being shop-vac'ed from labor, straight into the capital coffers.
In short... we just spent a lot of money to take jobs way from our fellow working-men and women, and sent our latest fare increase to the fat cats in Albany and their pimps.
Be seeing you.
scott
This is definitely a good thing. From what people say, the NYC subway is a technological nightmare. A few months back a fire destroyed an equipment room full of controol equipment dating from the 70s, effectively disabling a portion of the line for several months because the equipment was completely proprietary and non-redundant.
That being said, the whole NYC transit system needs to be seriously rethought. Even worse than the transit system in NYC itself is the regional transit system in the suburban areas. Coverage is dismal.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
This headline is not entirely accurate. The S shuttle from Times Square/42nd Street to Grand Central was at one point in the 1960s 'automated,' though probably not necessarily computerized.
IIRC there was a fire involved in endinng the project after a very brief trial run.
I ride the subway at least twice a day on workdays and as much as I am comforted knowing a conductor, with a radio, is somewhere on the train, most days I never even see one. Add in an iPod and their existence is practically negligible. I'd sacrifice their presence if it could demonstrably improve wait times and decrease overall congestion throughout the system.
B/Q from 7th Ave in 718 to either Canal or B'way/Lafayette. 29 minutes door to door, spent listening to music, reading, etc.
Supporting mass transit = non-supporting the oil regimes and all the related corrupt political systems, including our own. (Biking is still better, of course.)
-mj
Problem is you NEED a conductor on the subway train, just in case something happens on the train. They are able to call police, or tell the driver to stop, etc.
Removing conductors will definately reduce safety, not because of hackers, but because of conductor's ability to control various situations that may arise on the train.
Did I just read those two words in a story about the new York subway system?
I take the A/C Line everyday to work. A central switch system center caught fire and service has been even more horrid since the incident. I've also noticed an increase in vermin and general subway disrepair everywhere I look. Other lines are even worst. When I occasionally have to transfer to the 4/5 they have brand new trains but they are so slim line that it's not just cramped but hard to even stand.
Then I read about this computer system somewhere and I looked at the increase in fare i've been paying and i've gotta wonder to myself?
WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MTA DOING? If you live in NYC the subway is the worst part of your day.. That and the Starbuck lids.
I'm not sure how useful this fancy automated system is. The current automatic block system with mechanical stops is VERY reliable, having had 100 years to be refined. It also has been shown to be fail-safe, and has capacity for 30 trains per hour (and up to 40 in more refined variants). The fail-safe mechanisms on railroad signal logic are amazing. Relays have weights on them rather than springs, because springs are more likely to fail. Everything is very very carefully designed to not fail, or if it does fail, to do so in the way that is safest.
The new system, however, is based on computers. The way it detects trains is by ping latency. So a train basically has to tell the system where it is, and the system tells the train how far it can go. As for hackability, I think the system is based either on plain 802.11b or some derivative of it. It's really plenty hackable.
Does it provide anything in terms of safety? Not really. The only reason that accidents happened was because the signal system was badly designed or the train's brakes failed to work correctly. Also, the BART signal system was known for its spectacular failures in the early years. However, at roughly the same time, the all-automated PATCO system opened which used primarily coded track circuits rather than a computerized packet network, and has not had any problems since then. Same goes for many other systems, such as Boston, Washington, etc.
Finally, there's definitely quite a revolving door between the MTA and the various consultancies pushing these CBTC systems.
The current systems running most of the subway lines are the ORIGINAL systems.
As in installed in 1932 or earlier.
A recent fire in a control room severely disrupted service on 1-2 subway lines, and they are *still* not returned to "normal" service and likely never will be because the damaged systems were so ancient that there is no way to fully repair them.
Unfortunately, upgrading the system is a real bitch because upgrades mean downtime, and downtime is basically not an option for the MTA.
The issue was recently covered in more depth in the latest issue of the IEEE Spectrum.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
The L line is terrible. I have friends that live on it in Brooklyn, and they frequently can't into Manhattan on the week-ends, since that line is really the only way in or out (there is a bus, but it's SLOOOOWWWW). I predict that this is just going to lead to more troubles.
On the other hand, maybe all the hipsters in Williamsburg will just stay there...
...and if the person that hacked it causes problems, if they are found, will probably be charged with terrorism. Probably be charged with terrorism for just trying to hack it. Not that I mind, trying to f*ck with mass transit where lives might be at stake, is just plain stupid for anyone that doesn't want to be charged with negligent homicide or worse.
Like every few years, when a rainstorm paralyzes the City by shutting down the poorly maintained railways, or the occasional blackout? Why fear terrorists, when the MTA maintenance incompetence actually screws us up our lives fairly often?
--
make install -not war
I heard of an incident, I think in London, where there were two safeguards in the driver's cab: the deadman's switch had to be held and the door had to be shut. Pretty soon, the drivers figured to tape up the switch and open/shut the door as a control mechanism. This was fine until a driver stepped out of the cab at a station and let the door slide shut. Train goes off with no driver!
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I would like to point out that in Moscow subway system, a fully computerised line (grey line) was introduced in early 80's. The rest of the subway stayed with proper drivers. In early 90's there were two crashes (within several months of each other) on the computerised line. The reason was that due to technical problems one train stopped, and the train behind it slammed into it. The curious thing is that the traffic lights in the tunnels correctly lighted red (since they are redundant, in case of such emergency to display red just behind the train), but the computerised train (without a driver) carried on. If the driver was there to stop it, it wouldn't have happenned. I beleive that grey line is still the only one that is computerised and they have drivers on every other line. For more information on Moscow Metro see photos here: Metro map Cheers, Alex.
I'll sure as hell be pissed when I lose my job to a computer. Although I'm sure the computer would do it quite a bit better than I... And besides, this gives hundreds of C-list actors and actresses work (for the super-thriller TV movie), so I guess that's philosohpic balance in a way.
"You've Got Rail" every 100 feet would be kind of annoying.
Conductors are usually the ones that check your tickets or collect fares.
This morning I had one of the most peaceful commutes in quite a while. I attribute it fully to the conductor, urging us at every stop to "Step aside, let others off before you get on. If you can't fit on the train there is another train right behind this one."
The new system will not do this.
Even if it works flawlessly, many will still resent it for a long time. The installation phase has been shutting down sections of the line for 3 years every weekend, often for months at a time. It was pretty annoying to have to wait in a station for 35 minutes because only one train is running, only to see an empty car go by you on the" closed" track, carrying a few engineers with 15" powerbooks and some other random equipment.
Nuremberg will introduce a completely driverless subway next year. Good article with lots of pictures. See (partially English) PDF
I for one welcome New York to 20'th century technology while we live in the 21'st century.
but how long until a hacker manages to crack it?
Or cracker manages to hack it?
Most automated applications (even simple things like those using PLCs) have interlocks in the logic (code) and hardware (i.e. using relays) to prevent bad things to happen. Even small automation tasks are usually designed using tools like Stop and go procedures guide (Gemma in french), ensuring nothing bad happens in any case (like emergency stops or similar events). For anything safety related like that, there is a lot of redundancy built-in at every level (be it sensors, processing, comms, ...) Systems are never perfect, but usually they're designed with regards to safety.
It may go to the lowest bidder, but that doesn't mean that it won't run over estimated/planned costs and time. Perhaps I'm a bit naive but I just can't see them take a untested and potentially dangerous system online, risking a lot of lives. I doubt they'd accept bids from companies without enough expertise to make something like this happen safely either.
///<sig
With the complexity of the subway system in NYC, I don't think that it would be a good idea to computerize the subway system. Aside from the human aspect (conductors losing their jobs), there's the question of practicality. I take the subway to and from work every day and most of the time there are so many people jam packed in the train that you end up pressed against other people in most intimate configurations. There are probably anywhere from 1000 to 2000 people riding on each train during rush hour. Also, people act irrationally: some rush into the train as the doors are closing; some hang out very close to the edge of the platform; people try to leave as others are coming in, and so forth. All in all, it's pure chaos. On top of it, there's constant changes, repairs, modifications in service, floods. I'm sorry, I just don't see a computer being able to manage all this chaos. Given how progressive the city is in other aspects, the subway system is fairly antiquated but given its enormity and complexity, that may be the only practical way to operate it?
--
http://unk1911.blogspot.com
I think you just gave away the plot for the next season of 24. ;)
Uhh, what happened to those cities in 1955?
The reason the L line (which I use every day) has been down on the weekends is precisely BECAUSE they've been installing this computer system.
So it will only "solve" the problem because its installation is the source of the problem.
I agree with all the people who have pointed out that:
1. The current system, while low-tech, works pretty damn well. It is a certainty that the new tech will have more bugs (because it's new) and more things that can go wrong (because it's far more expensive and complex).
2. Conductors do not just serve as announcers and door operators -- they are also a pair of eyes that can spot any "human" problems on or around the train. The MTA recently closed hundreds of token booths at less-used station entrances. Now they're eliminating conductors. God help us if NYC experiences another crime wave.
The real reason they are going to computer control is to cram more trains thru the system in the same amount of time. In theory, this will shorten waits, crowding, and ride times... assuming that the new gadgetry works, and that you don't get mugged.
While it makes sense to pick the L line for this experiment, it's also important to note that L is reallly the only direct line that connects Williamsburg (Brooklyn) to Manhattan. If someting goes awry with that computerized L, a lot of Burg people will have to work from home.
Simpy
If they upgrade to all brand new chineese import parts, the thing will fall apart in 3 years I bet. Just like everything else, those cheap headphones etc... wire breaking, tsk. Yes big bulky stuff can be ugly, but hey, it'll last a century, not that CEOs care for that these days, unless they sell it at 3000% profit to cover 100 years of lost sales ;)
What ever happened to the old attitude of build it tuff, build it strong to last, rather than build it to last just long enough until the next upgrade to increase perpetual sales?
Oh well, maybe the next inflation boom / economic down turn will turn people back into long term long life attitudes.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I'm not a native New Yorker, I don't live there either. But being a big transitfan, I am jumping up and down after hearing this!!! FINALLY!!!!!!
-Palal
I wold love to have more details about the potential monopoly. Siemens could included encryption in alot of their parts "to prevent hacking" and,oh by the way means no competitor can build parts that are compatible with the Siemens parts.
I am not saying there are doing this,just that there is at least one situation where a company could cause a hassle for their customer via some lock-in tech.
I mod everyone down who says "I'll get modded down for this." I hate to disappoint.
Metrocards have saved the system a lot of money. It's no longer necessary to process tens of millions of metal tokens. I'm glad I can carry a thin plastic card around instead of a pocketful of tokens.
However, there is a Big Brother aspect to it. I get my Metrocards thru a discount program at my company (I can buy them using my pre-tax income). This means they are identified with me, and I can in theory be tracked. Anyone who buys a card this way, or who buys one at a vending machine using an ATM or credit card, can also be tracked thru the subway and bus systems.
In fact, the police have already used Metrocard tracking to apprehend suspects. I think they tend to check on the usage records of cards found on suspects they've picked up, in order to verify their movements -- rather than tracing cards back to their purchasers using purchase info. But it's all pretty Orwellian.
I am sometimes tempted to only buy cards from human beings at token booths, using cash. But instead, I take the slight discount and allow myself to be tracked...
This is a silly one: back in early 80s I used to be employed with St.Peterdburg(Leningrad), Russia Metrorail authorities. At that time they have been upgrading their previous generation driverless system into a newer one, PDP-11(CM-4) based, if I remembed correctly. Its really easy - just devide distance on speed, calculate intervals and control speed/braking. Do it on two fully isolated computer system, and two PDP-11 with 64k of memory have been doing job well. And yes they had a driver sitting idle on the train, but with no need ever to seize controls. Keep also in mind that an avarage russian worker routinely starts a working day with a glass (150ml) of vodka(no kidding), hardware is crappy and interval between trains aproaching 50 seconds while brain capabilities of their management aproaching zero. Still the driverless system used to work fine there with no accidents even back in late 70s. Perhaps in NewYork it's different given the ratio of lawyers and corrupted polititians to real-time engineers. But no, its in no way anything new.
>> As for hackability, I think the system is based either on plain 802.11b or some derivative of it. It's really plenty hackable.
Actually, Hackability depends upon what you send accross the network. If you send unencrypted stuff over an 802.11b connection it will be hacked in no time. But if you send an already encrypted signal accross the connection, all the sniffer will see is garbabe. If you use a decent alogorithm (like RSA) which is administered well (key changed frequently), it likely will never be compromised.
Its unlikely MTA maintenance is incompetent. I'd like to see how competent you would be maintaining 5,000 servers with high availability requirements. They are underfunded, and possibly understaffed.
What is incompetent is MTA MANAGEMENT. The problem is that the MTA has embarked on new construction, such as the 2nd Ave. line, without any guarantees from the state or federal to secure funding for its completion. Many times they raid the maintenance budget, or choose to fund the operations budget with borrowing (bad move). This is going to result in the crisis in a few years, when interest payments is going to make the operating costs skyrocket. The question is how much culpability do you put on the politicians (like Silber, Guiliani, Pataki) for coercing MTA on construction projects it can't cover, or preventing a fare hike in the late '90's.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
has it already for years.
;)
And you know what? They don't even have a driver.
It's funny, because there are windows on every side and you can look through it.
But i don't know what this article is about.
As it states there are several cities with computerized subways. Since years.
Without even one accident (atleat without a big, which we may have heard of).
And besides that, i think subways have their own autonomous systerms, so one shouldn't be able to hack it from the net, at least.
Next thing: If it is safe or not depends on the company that builds it, not the city or whatever.
If the company does its job, then it's safe.
Let's hope NewYorks subway has enough money
This also raises a red flag. One company that will in effect control the whole parts system? How can we know we won't get hosed with the price?
You bring up a very good point. In some cases, it is abundently clear that technology has made the price of many goods dirt cheap. Examples include online stores (little overhead), web-based customer service (FAQs, forums, etc), and credit cards (all electronic). But in all of these cases, there has been lots of competition to drive the price down (usually to the point of disallowing ANY profit to be made from said technology). When there is so much competition, the revenue from automated technology often goes away because competitors will lower their prices to attract customers. Many business will start to just give away their computerized services for free.
But back to my point... If the only place NYC can obtain new parts and service from is Siemens AG, you can bet that the state is going to pay a premium for ANYTHING because they are locked in. The competition to force lower prices is eliminated, and it basically becomes another government beurocracy that just drains money from an otherwise good system. They need open standards for the new subway, so they change suppliers without a problem.
*Dealership mechanics will chagre $75 for computer-chiped keys, and also charge a fortune to diagnose the car's problem. A regular mechanic can tell you "its this, this, or this," but because they don't have the software and access to the car's computer, they can't tell you the exact problem the car is reporting. They usually want $50-100 just to plug your car into the computer to tell you the problem.
Does that make it the information supersubway?
You can't take the sky from me...
I grew up near NYC and have rode the subways often enough. When I was growing up during the 80s you would not even think of going into a subway without a cache of small arms at your disposal. The city has changed alot though lately. Is it safer? Yes Do muggings still happen? Yes. Also they dont make the news anymore. I think worrying about hackers is a little silly. And terrorists have literally thousands of targets that would be better in NYC. I think it does deminish safety on the trains. The conductors have a radio that if something happens on the train police can be waiting at the next stop. As far as what I think. When your on the train you dont care what is making it go as long as its on time and not out of control and on fire.
Sullivan, who also helped develop an automated line for San Francisco Municipal Railway in the 1980s, said he knows of no serious problems from hacking or malfunction.
Yeah! Because they stopped using the automated equipment in the 90s when they put in a new system which has been a nightmare!
BART, on the other hand is excellent. They're currently working on AATC (advanced automated train control), which has a few advantages over the original ATC. Hopefully it will spread to other systems, as it is being developed by the DOD.
-Palal
Too bad , riding at the front of the train is kind of cool, at least on the Paris Metro. It may get old but I don't have to ride the Metro everyday, only get to Paris once a year or so.
The L is so much better than it was 7 years ago when I first got to w'burg, half hour waits... as for your come lately friends and the "hipsters" who cant figure out the JMZ line or a car service... thats their problem.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." ~The Honorable Daniel Patrick Moynihan
In Moscow's subway system, you get a ding-dong sound warning you that the doors are about to close. If someone is still in the doorway while they are closing, the doors sense the pressure, and will retract for a second or two. they keep doing this until the doors finally close. no need for a conductor in the middle of the train to yell at you to get away from the door.
Once all the doors manage to close, the driver in front gets the green light and moves to the next station.
overseas rail systems.
.h tm
NY rail has nothing on:
(For me to be somewhat semi-balanced, I managed to include a general subway lines link for subways:
http://www.reed.edu/~reyn/transport.html
of the world... but, the remaining links are of Tokyo Area...)
Pictures of train cars:
http://hisaai.at.infoseek.co.jp/Tokyo/car_e g.html
http://hisaai.at.infoseek.co.jp/Tokyo/index_eg.h tm l
Tickets & ticket machines & "wicket machines":
http://hisaai.at.infoseek.co.jp/Tokyo/ticket_eg. ht ml
Rail chimes/audio tunes:
Interesting tech site I stumbled upon while trying to find the metro stations' audible alerts/tones...:
http://www.byz.org/~rbanks/movableType/webLog/tr en ds/archives/cat_2_network_mobility.html
(see: "CNN: Almost a Million Koreans Bank by Phone")
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000927038823/
Tokyo Metro 2002:
http://www.christopherholt.com/subjects/japan-06
Tokyo Big Sight:
http://www.bigsight.jp/english/access/
Tokyo Metro Marunouchi Line:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Metro_Ma runouch i_Line
Japan Guide:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2017.html
Visiting Odaiba & Daiba
http://wikitravel.org/en/Tokyo/Odaiba
====
Now, for my commentary...
The NY experiment or conversion is not even worth an "it's about time...". and barely worth a "yawn". Probably unions kept this delayed for as long as it is... Hyuumons have a way of delaying automation, but then management/CEOs have a way with wiping out jobs for a frickin' bottom line, too... Of course, we can recall the Standard Oil and other companies that systematically bought up almost every single city rail car line to encourage the gas-swilling privately-owned vehicle (POV). (I think the POV (and lack of rapid communications and intra/interstate driver's license checking) is one of the single-largest factors in the US infidelity/divorce rate, thanks to the POV's enabling traveling salesmen to have a wife or lover in multiple cities, much like sailors having a girl (or, umm, boy, heheh) in every port.)
I seriously doubt there is a single rail system in the US that compares to some overseas, particularly to the multiple systems in Tokyo that that share the same track. The Shinjuku station along services over 2 million passengers a day, if I recall, and I used that and other stations there.
The trains have an operator in front, and sometime, but not always, have an operator or safety monitor in the back control station. Generally, the person in back is there to ensure there are no pax stuck in the doors as the cute alert tunes chime away that the train is moving. Heck, even inside the trains there are (on the JR Line, at least) really cool plasma or LCD monitors that show in color any number of commercials/adverts, and the moving block diagram of the train, its next station arrival, and delays information in English and Japanese. I wonder if Spanish or other languages will be on the NY system, or if their system is only going as far as testing the repacability of operators. I seriously doubt many US lines would survive vandalism. Of course, I gather, NY has trains that run all night long, and sometimes, for me it was an incovenience in Tokyo to have to rush to the train before 12:30, to get back to my bunk, but other lines ran until about 1AM or 1:30. I hardly saw any litter on the Japanese trains, and cannot recall seeing ANY graffiti or torn seats. The stations themselves are different,, but when you have over 2 million users a day passing through or going to shop in the multi-use centers, any city would have a few torn posters here and there. BART seems OK, by my comparisons to Tokyo's lines (all of these I rode):
-sakusa
-Mita
-Shinjuku
-Ooedo
-JR Yamanote
-JR
-Toei Streetcar/Arakawa
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
FIRST OF ALL: Do not confuse CONDUCTOR and TRAIN OPERATOR (read on) What they're not doing: - They're not phasing out the train operators. It's no going to happen. You need someone to be there in case of an emergency. - They're not automating it completely What they are doing: - Eliminating the conductors. PLEASE, do NOT confuse him/her with the train operator (motorman). The TO sits in the front of the train, the conductor is in the middle. - Installing first a variable speed control system (read down for explanation), then at some point later fully automating the line. Variable Speed Control aka Cab Control - shows the allowable speed. The train operator still controls the train, but he/she cannot go over the posted speed. Currently, each section of track has a set speed limit, which is not changeable. When the system will be put in, each section of track will have a variable speed limit so that the people at central control will be able to change it based on conditions (rain, snow, etc.). So one day, a section of track may be 35, the next, 50, etc. Full Automation: The TO does NOTHING BUT closing (and perhaps opening) of doors. If the system is to be fully automated, it will probably retain drivers, because of the absense of various safety mechanisms which cannot be installed for one reason or anther, and for the fact that many homeless tend to like to live in tunnels.
-Palal
Either way, if someone these days is taking hostages they'd better be prepared to kill a lot of them, especially if there are only a few of them and there are a lot of hostages. After recent history, hostages are very much likely to fight back. It may kill a few of them, but I'd personally rather run the risk of being one harmed in a swarm attacking than leave fate totally unknown and have high odds of dying without trying to save myself.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
There are exits every n-hundred feet in NYC. It's a very shallow subway.
-Palal
Reading that post made it clearer than anything else that the terrorists have won. If people are no longer thinking in terms of making progress or doing what needs to be done, but in terms of every remote attack that could be launched, everything's going to come to a grinding halt. Not in destroying America phyisically, but if we go down this path too long, we would certainly have stagnated and become obsolete to the poin where America's influence in the world goes the way of the Roman empire.
This sort of thing -- and much worse -- has been happening quite a lot lately. Entire subway lines have recently been knocked out for hours on end by failing equipment,
So? The NYC subway system has problems currently whenever there is radio interference, because every train is run by a driver that has nothing more than a throttle lever and a brake, he needs constant communication, without it, he cannot move safely.
Video Production Support
For inner city transportation, I can not recall there ever beeing anybody but a single train guy to run a train. Traditionally, he have also been monitoring the doors, stuff like that, using (tada) video cameras mounted on the station.
More recently, there are several trains in Europe, with no personell whatsoever. Here in Copenhagen, Denmark, there is the "Metro train" (http://www.m.dk/), which serves about 100.000 people (perhaps more) daily. Trains are 3 minutes apart, and spend 10-15 seconds on each station, using double doors, etc.
Of course, a big part of Europe going automated is probably that minimum wages in Europe are _way_ higher than in the US. Visiting the US, I am always amazed on the number of people that do totally trivial tasks in airports, restaurants, etc. With no intention to troll: It reminds me of the former east european contries ("Whats that guy by the escalator doing?", "Oh, he is watching the escalator").
I am always glad about computerization, but it surprises me that you can't ensure uninterrupted traffic on a dedicated subway line.
In Russia subway trains are controlled by humans, but they still manage to ensure safe and reliable operation. The trains go with the interval as small as 90 seconds and still they manage to avoid congestion. Of course, the subways here are not 100-years old - more like 50-years old, but still.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
...that it was funny that the story about the New York subway system was taken from the Boston Globe?
Oh well...
So...if I kill your mom and rape your daughter and disappear for 20 years and then come back, you would be fine with it because 20 years has passed, right?
I know that sounds horrible but just multiple the deaths and pain by 4 million (total 8 million) and maybe you'll see why China is a little pissed off. Instead of asking why can't China get over it, maybe a better question would be: why won't Japan apologize?
unless you live in the upper reaches of brooklyn the L is not the line you commute with. The bulk of people who live in brooklyn (including myself) take the A/C/2/3/4/5/N/R/Q/D/M/F to commute. the L is hardly the only way into manhattan from brooklyn (hell the original purpose of the subway system was to get people from downtown brooklyn into manhattan). As for the L service, I've never had any probs with it and I use it all the time. It's usually more reliable than a lot of other lines (ever tried waiting for the D near coney island, or the 2/3 at off hours at clark in brklyn heights, where I live?).
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
woops forgot the J/Z (and M) which, if you're talking about williamsburg, also run there in addition to the L.
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
100 years, is that old? I suppose it is fairly big though.
This is an incredibly detailed simulator, going all the way down to the relay level. You can work the control panels, look at the relay schematics, and see the signals from the train operator's perspective in OpenGL.
The system simulated, developed by General Railway Signal in the 1940s, is the first "intelligent user interface" ever developed. There were many earlier signal systems, and by 1914 or so they were routinely interlocked against operator errors for safety. But this one, NX, for "entry-exit" signalling, was the first one that offered intelligent assistance to the signal operator.
The train dispatcher selects a train entering a junction full of switches, signals, and trains. The NX system will then light up all the currently valid "exits", places the train can exit the junction, checking for conflicts with other trains and timing constraints. When the operator selects an "exit", with one button push, the NX system does everything else. It sets the track switches, verifies that they're in position and locked, turns the appropriate signals green, lowers the appropriate train stops (alongside the track are mechanical devices that, if raised, will be hit by an air brake valve on any passing subway car, bringing the train to a stop), and tracks the train as it moves through the junction. As the train clears each signal, switch or crossover, that resource is released so another train can use it.
The train stops come back up behind each train (and the signalling system verifies that they do so), so that separation between trains is maintained. Even speed control is enforced. There are timers all through the system, so that when a train passes one signal, there's a minimum time before it can pass the next one. An overspeeding train will be tripped and stopped.
It's all done with relays. Big relays, with silver contacts to prevent corrosion. It's fail-safe in a formal sense - no relay coil failure, power failure, or broken wire will result in an unsafe condition. Everything is designed to "fail to red". The designers trusted gravity and solid metal, and not much else.
Situations programmer types never think of are handled. For example, a train stop might become jammed due to ice. That's not only detected, it's handled properly. If a train stop protecting a switch won't go to the up (stop) position, the signalling system won't let the switch move. (And the gear is rugged enough that when someone goes out with a blowtorch to unfreeze the thing, it will be unharmed.)
This is a very safe technology. But it requires a huge, highly trained maintenance force.
just what we need, windows having control over large thousand-ton moving pieces of steel....
:-)
whats the worst that can happen, maybe the trains freeze or uhhh, crash?... erm, no pun intended... okay maybe it was slightly intentional
Mike
I heart the RIAA & MPAA, im sure its mutual...
Here's a photo of me enjoying the reliability of the NY subway's computer system.. http://evillair.netdojo.com/NYbsod.jpg Looks like everyone may have to get out of the train while the engineer reboots it.
Look, I'm all for automation, but I have the same problem with this that I had with the city's plan to automate all metrocard purchases with an eye to getting rid of overnight booth workers.
If you need help late at night in the city, the one thing you can count on is having a human in a booth in the subway. They might be surly, but if you NEED help those people can be your best friends. A conductor focusing on the platform and keeping an eye out for trouble serves a purpose a computer can't possibly compete with. You wouldn't need 'em 99.99% of the time, but that one time you're getting your ass kicked and need help is no time to go looking for a police call box.
I mean, I know it's heretical to say this here, but computers can't do everything.
To prove it, I am making all trains 3 to 30 minutes late.
Unless I'm having a really bad morning, in which case your train may not come at all.
paintball
Copenhagen has had driverless trains for some years:
See http://www.m.dk/en/train and http://www.m.dk/en/qa
In London all the underground trains only have a driver, and all works pretty well. The doors open and close by themselves, other passengers will scream at you if you try to hold the doors open (not to mention that they are REALLY strong doors). The train automatically does the announcements without the need for a conductor and you can see when your next train is coming by looking at the electronic boards which show the time tot he next train and it's destination.
The DLR line even has driverless trains all computer controlled, it is great fun to sit in the front of the train where the driver normally would be and look out of the windscreen.
Things dont need to be that complex though, when I lived in Brussels the Metro there just had a map of the line hanging from the celing with little LED's along the route, they showed where the trains were so you could guess how long you would have to wait.
You want oyster cards next, now they really do rock....
It's My Tea and I'll Drink it if I Want To!
I used to live In Canarsie, the last stop on that line. It goes through many not-so-nice areas (the elevated section hovers over the burned-down ruins of East New york - there are literally whole blocks with nothing in them, after the buildings were burned down in the 70's. If you are completely comfortable with being the only white dude in a train car, then the L train is for you. I know people who've been attacked on that line several times. Once the East New York residents moved to Canarsie in the 90's, I moved out. I hope there won't be an increase in attacks with one less official on it.
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
We have a number of automated lines. THe Docklands Light Railway is fully automated and runs really well. At least 3 of the lines on the Tube are computer controlled too with the drivers there to monitor the doors.
However the automation ahd led to some interesting and unforseen difficulties. The automated systems speed up and slow down at the same points in the track it is putting extra stresses on certain sections of track and sleepers which leads to degraded track safety.
Working for the (other) man
The London Docklands Light Railway is an example of such a system. In case the automatic system breaks down (which happened very often when LDLR was new) the conductor has the keys and skills needed to drive the train manually. Usually (s)he drives the train to the next station and restarts computer operated mode. The conductor's primary function is to close the doors and ensure safety on board of the trains and to assist passengers with boarding, alighting and information.
In automatic mode, the computer stops the train at each station and unlocks the doors. When the time to depart has arrived the RTD (Ready To Depart?) light comes on (there is one at every door). The conductor is then supposed to close the doors (using a key that can be used in a lock present on any of the doors). When all doors are closed the ADC (All Doors Closed?) light (also at every door) comes on and the train departs.
As there is no train driver cabin, the passengers have a nice view in all directions (LDLR runs mostly on elevated track). Having no driver cabin saves some space too. (The manual driving controls are behind a cover.)
Not "years" but mere "weeks". But it would have been the Soviets who would have defeated the Japanese rather than the US in that scenario. And it was this last bit that had the US more worried than the prospect of a long drawn-out war.
There is a great book about the history of the NYC subway called "722 Miles", by Clifton Hood. (That being the length of install track - which if laid out in a straight line would take you all the way to Chicago!)
The book, which is available at Amazon, covers the types of mass transit systems that existed in NYC before the advent of the subway, and also covers the politics of getting big changes made, etc.
Another truly fascinating aspect of the book is where the author talks about how much of an impact the subway had on the development of the city.
A great read.
Anyway, in case anyone's interested.
Sigh. My id isn't prime. 2 2 2 2 2 3 5 313
Expecting an apology from the US is foolish historical revisionism. Not sure the variation you learned in school, but they attacked us first. We lost a good chunk of our Pacific fleet, and it was only by the grace of God that they didn't hit the fuel dumps in Pearl Harbor. Had that happened, the war would have taken at least another year, possibly two.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible events, but war IS terrible. By concentrating all the awfulness into just two events, overall many lives were probably saved. Particularly ours, which must be our primary consideration in war.
In my opinion, the deliberately-induced firestorm in Dresden was at least as great a crime. What is it about people's thinking.... a whole bunch of small explosions that kill tens of thousands of people are okay, but a single BIG explosion that kills fewer people is a crime against humanity?
Remember, Dresden was a follow-on to Hamburg. We knew what was likely to happen and we deliberately induced the exact same effect. By dropping incendiary bombs over several days, they started a raging fire that engulfed more than eight square miles. It generated so much heat that it became its own weather system, creating hurricane-force winds that literally sucked everyone and everything around to their destruction. More than 200,000 bodies were recovered, and the total death toll is believed to exceed 250,000.
Between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, about 120,000 died... less than half.
Your bleating about an apology from the US is just emotional handwringing with no basis in reality. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were humane by the standards of WW2... they did, after all, end the war.
(and to those who start bitching about radiation effects... we didn't KNOW very much about radiation effects at the time. In the middle of a war, where the enemy is trying desperately to kill you and those you love, you don't worry a lot about long-term consequences. You ask, "will using this weapon hurt our people in any way?" If the answer is no, and the weapon is a good one, it's going to get used.)
Wars are very easy to start, but very hard to stop. We stopped a war in its tracks by killing 120,000 people with two planes and two big bombs. It was the right decision, and no apology should ever be expected.
We've had automated Light Rail Transit out here in Vancouver, BC, Canada, for like 20 years already. And New York is finally getting automated trains now???
And this is no short line we have or anything either - it takes about 40 minutes to get from one end to the other, and they've recently added a second line as well.
Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
The NY Transit Authority may have other, longer
term goals in mind. Once the train operators
have been replaced with computerized control,
it is only a matter of time before the job(s)
of remotely monitoring the trains is out-sourced.
Before you mod me down, bear in mind that the
multinational fast food comglomerate McDonalds
is testing the out-sourcing of their take-out
window order takers. Baltimore County, MD, is
one such place this "improvement" is being tested.
The actual voice on the other end of the speaker
is currently in Wisconsin. I have no doubt that
if this cost-saving method moves from "select
regional trials" to widespread national adoption,
your McDonalds order taker make be 8,000 miles
away, and a vegetarian that considers cows to be
holy.
Others have mentioned the security implications for needing a human conductor, but another is health reasons. I don't know about the NY subway but in DC when someone faints on a train you can hit a button and tell the train operator right away so they can radio ahead to have medical personnel ready at a close stop.
And as DC area people know on our two-track system, a health problem on a train is the equivilent of a DOS attack on the subway system... everything halts (as in, the whole line halts) until the sick passenger is off the train.
I live in Hong Kong and our metro (http://www.mtr.com.hk) has gone into computerized like that for over ten years I believe.
I have never seen a conductor in our train, simpily no such things...But I don't see it's a problem. FYI, our train is 8 cars long, ~200 meters per train I believe. I am not sure about how long is NYC train?
<i>Someone concern about the doors blocking problem</i>
First as someone mentioned already, you can hardly held the door open because it's about 1-2 bar air pressure press aginst the doors.
Second, the driver (we called them Train Operator because his main jobs is to manage the door, instead of driving) could see the icon flashing indicating exactly which doors is not closed on his 12" LCD panel..
Third, with CCTV and radio transmission, the operator could monitor everyone getting on/off board with his another 12" LCD panel in the driver cab. Of course it's clear enough to see anyone with difficulties in boarding.
Forth, ppl will yell at you if you play with the doors...Or at worst the Operator will yell at you on the PA system.
<i>What if emergency happen...</i>
First, throughout the cars it's equipped with communication device...You could push the big red button and get contact with the operator.
In case of emergency or evacuation, the operator could contact the Control Center and the Station staff. With thousands of passengers on the train, I don't think having one or more conductors would help in the evacuation process...A better evacuation plan / instruction would play an more important role.
At last, it's very uncommon for someone to rape a woman on train...Because again someone would just press the red button and then station staff would be waiting for you on the next station~~
AFAIK, for our metro, most of system signal are injected into the rail, instead of transmitting through open air. I dunno if it's the same for the NYC subway.
Afterall, because the speed is computer controlled, the train schedule could be packed might tighter, and more energy saving because the computer could run the train at a "slow speed profile" during non-peak hours (they actually do this in Hong Kong)
Plus, in Singapore, one of their metro line has no Operator on the train at all, all automated...But I havn't heard of any notable news yet. As long as the public get used to it, it would be ok...
Simply automating a group based transport system doesn't really solve the *fundamental* problems that they have. I suppose it's a small step in the right direction though.
c ti veness.doc
There are some fundamental problems with group based mass transit systems which have come to light since the automobile was introduced. Simply put, group based vehicles have to stop at every station to let people on and off. That means their average speed is abysmal. It doesn't matter what top speed they are capable of because they spend much of their time accelerating and decelerating to and from the stations. You can partially get round this by denying access to the vehicle i.e. express vehicles which don't stop at every station. Not much use if you live near a station that the express doesn't stop.
The second fundamental problem with group based mass transit systems is that they rarely go where you want to go, in fact it's impossible due to the group based nature. They inevitably become hub and spoke systems with the hub in a town or city and you either go where the mass transit system wants you to or you have to change vehicles mid journey, possibly making several changes of vehicle with all of the additional delays that entails.
These guys have an analysis document that is worth reading (Sorry, word format):
http://www.atsltd.co.uk/ultra_pdfs/service_effe
The result is that compared to an individual vehicle like a car, conventional group based mass transit systems have excruciatingly poor performance and simply can not compete. The result being that 90% of journeys are made by other means, typically the car.
The car obviously has it's own problems of cost, congestion and poor performance. The solution then is a fully automated mass transit system which makes use of *individual vehicles* rather than group vehicles...
e.g.
http://www.atsltd.co.uk/
or
http://www.skywebexpress.com/
Deleted
I saw that this was completely controlled by computers a long time ago. There was this episode of '24' where they took control of the subway and kept the bad guys from getting away.
Boy, slashdot has GOT to keep up.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
Unless it's a Walt Disney World Monorail
But is that a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail? 'Cos in that case being a conductor is quite a cushy job...
I suppose a better way to do this communication would be directly via rails. Here in Sao Paulo, Brazil, the subway system is totally automatic (of course small systems like these are easier), and all communication is made via digital multiplexed signalling transmitted directly to the train via its rails.
So, to hack into one of those, one would have to measure certain frequencies inside the track. Not impossible, but damn harder than radio.
*every* train during rush hour will have people racing to catch a train and stick an arm or bag in the doors to try to get on board. Thus, a system that flags a central operator after 3 pinches would create even more chaos than exists today.
AnimeNEXT anime convention
Ut Tensio, Sic Vis
Here in Montreal, we've had a computerized subway system since 1969. Considering its safety record to date, I would say that there's a lot of precedent for computer-controlled transit, and that the "gadgetry" works.
;)
As for the above posts:
Yes, we only have a single "conductor". All he does is close the doors, and handles emergencies if there are any. There is generally only one or two 'gates' to any given metro station, while many entrances lead to them. Once you're in the subway system, it is assumed that you've paid your fare and that you may freely transfer from one line onto another.
Having done a research project on our subway system, the conclusion we came to was that most accidents were caused by human intervention. When the tracks are properly maintained (and they are), and barring any suicide attempts or medical emergencies, they are really reliable. All modern subway systems should be automated
Just my 0.02$ worth...
the Japanese were desperately trying to get the Russians to act as mediators for peace with the United States
If they wanted peace, maybe they (the Japs) shouldn't have attacked at Pearl Harbor.
Can't say I've seen any cat-sized ones (maybe kitten-sized if you count the tail), but I can attest to their boldness--they generally aren't in any hurry to get out from under arriving trains, and in one particular station (149th/3rd Ave, Bronx 2/5) I actually spotted a pair of rats having sex on the trackbed. Could actually hear one of 'em squeak too. Funniest thing I ever saw underground.
---PCJ
Heh. We've had our metro line since 1966 ;)
That's 65 stations, on three lines and a half. Working pretty well, too. Mind you, I wouldn't go as fall as calling it 21st century technology just yet. I'll wait for 'pilot'-less full-blown, 24/7 underground mag-lev systems before commenting on that....
Linky
But it would have been the Soviets who would have defeated the Japanese rather than the US in that scenario. And it was this last bit that had the US more worried than the prospect of a long drawn-out war.
The Soviet Union, after suffering more casualties than any of the Allies, virtually losing an entire generation of men to the Germans, was prepared to mount an invasion of Japan's home islands? Think again.
The Soviet Union was not a signatory of the Potsdam Declaration, as they were not at war with Japan. They signed on to the Potsdam Declaration after they declared war on Japan on August 8th, two days after the the Hiroshima bomb. The Soviet declaration of war was to claim a place at the postwar table, rather than an expression of intent to mount an invasion.
It's been done. Watch out for Walter Matthau and Jerry Stiller.
The MTA management, particularly Chairman Kalikow, are worse than incompetent: they're also thieves and liars. But the maintenance also suffers from union bloat. Have you ever seen a sense of urgency from crews making emergency repairs? That overtime work that makes them so beat while doing their hard physical labor in disgusting conditions is greedily demanded by unions in negotiations. They might well be "understaffed", if you don't count the extra guys who hang around on the job, like any other NYC union gig. The whole system is a farce, with no honest operator as a starting point for real renovation.
Just compare the rider's share of each county's budget, and the services they get. You'll see the spectrum from cheap Westchester bar cars and Disney-like stations, to Bronx buses out of _The Warriors_. It's like a visual onomatopoeia: the MTA really is as bad as it looks.
--
make install -not war
Don't worry guys, 'been done in Lille (France) in 1983, it's working fine since then. (in french, sorry). Just give them a call...
And if you have ever been in NY, you will know that ppl all surround the train doors before they open and then push each other chaotically. having a 2nd set of doors, along with a series of gates to herd the ppl aboard quickly, would be a simple solution to this.
Simple, except for the part where all 450+ stations in the NYC subway system, some of which are 100 years old, would have to be gutted and redesigned from scratch to put gated walls between the tracks and the platforms. That's a project that would make the train automation seem cheap and quick by comparison, if it were feasible at all, which I'd say it isn't.
And your weigh-the-passengers idea has so many things wrong with it I don't know where to start. Put yourself in the shoes of the only guy waiting at a station as train after train passes you by. What fucking good is a train if you can't get on it? We already have separate Express and Local tracks on many subway lines.
Ok MTA has more then enough money for their varies projects, if they spend it right and Unions weren't getting paid by the hour maybe, we would have had this system in place long time ago...
Just as example 8 west subway station was closed for 3 years for renovation job, you know what they did, they painted and changed the guards... and it not complete done yet...
So don't tell me they are not stupid or lazy... i agree there are some Smart Engineers but the hole MTA need to be reorganize completely and some of the union jobs should be our source to private construction companies to promote competition between Unions and Private Companies...
If you live in NYC you know what I am talking about... if not don't bother telling me other wise...
Who controls the information, controls the world...
It was my first trip to the city so I wonder, are system failures like this common?
I want to know if the rates are going to increase or decrease.
I'll tell you the answer: Rates won't decrease.
Case in point, shamelessly googled:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.mccumesty/jan_jun 2003/vanc_skytrain2.jpg
(They used to be able to operate the windshield-wiper handle too, but those have since been disconnected.)
I think I was misunderstood, and if not, please never be an engineer for a train line. *smirk*
I more meant to take, say, every X yards of track and number it. As the front of the train consumes more locks (track), it releases the track behind the train. Personally I wouldn't release locks until I had accumulated enough to cover the train a few time (ie: if a train is 10 cars, and each space-for-a-car is a lock, I'd accumulate 30 locks before releasing the first). This is mainly for buffer space, differing stopping distances, possibility of failure etc.
And of course, on a side note, since this is safety, I'd probably want it so that should a train fail to obey a lock (ie: not be able to stop), all trains ahead will close their doors and promptly move forward to make room 'just in case'. This is of course rare, but if the train gets that close, I'd rather move the cars in front out of the way.
Then again, I'm in no way trying to program one here. The point of my original post was to say that the logic behind it isn't at all the focus of the article as it really is easy- ensure that nobody uses the same foot/metre/yard of track at a given time, and leave some room despite that.
The difficulty, and I think what the article was many posters were trying to say, is in signalling and getting this logic in place and having enough failsafes.
Otherwise, this isn't a very complicated problem at all. But it's the signalling and communication that becomes the issue.
-M
when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
Could have fooled me. What exactly did they launch, when the L train is still unavailable for much of the line on weekends?
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/subsrvnl.htm/
As usual, there is no indication of when the line will actually be up and running properly, nor does anyone here have a clue about these "displays" the article mentions. Hell, nobody I know had any clue about the last fare hike.
The NYC MTA is a joke. They run empty trains for training purposes at peak rush hour, and you can stand around on a platfrom for a half hour without anyone informing you that the line is down. Local trains frequently fly by inexplicably stalled express trains. Then there are the yellow diesel cars that spew smoke into the tunnels, and of course those oh-so-funny motormen that love to blow the very loud horn after the thing's already in the station, thrashing everyone's nerves even more.
If Japan was so eager to surrender, why did they still refuse after Hiroshima? Put down the Japanese textbook and come back to reality.
The L train goes through some extremely rough parts of town (I was born in New York and lived there 19 years).
I'd be more worried about getting mugged, assaulted or killed due to less people around to deter it than I would be of any computer failure or terrorist hacking of the system.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
No evil hax00r has caused two BART cars to crash head on into each other yet. There are still operators in cars but they only open and close the doors (well they can manually control the trains when communications fail, and of course control an emergency brake.)
Mostly, communications fail to the cars for good old reasons like dirt, water, and the monthly-or-so "main computer crash".
The system had big problems initially but it's been tweaked to the point where the main contraint on capacity is the vost and complexity of news cars, each car costing about 1/10 as much as a Boeing 737.
Next article.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
With the 3rd rail running +VDC you essentially cathodically protect the entire system
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
From the article above: "The radio links that provide data communication between the trains and the control center are encrypted, but how long until a hacker manages to crack it?"
And how long, my fellow citizens, before some Evil Monster walks down one of the subway tunnels and plants a bomb on the tracks!! There are no guards at the entrance to these tunnels! Only a little gate that a child could bypass! Oh, the humanity!
Fergawdzsake! I see nothing in the story that would suggest such a possibility, yet the writer feels the need to Issue a Warning Against Terrorism!
(John 11:35!)
Get a grip, people. Do a risk assessment on the back of an envelope. Is this a likely possibility? Just because something is possible, it does not necessarily follow that it is likely. Quit panicking at minute possibilities. Suck it up and quit shying at phantoms.
(Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a time in the US where they are not worrying about something? Indians, labour organizers, anarchists, Wobblies, communists, gays (destroying marriage), the Mafia, terrorists, "Islamists", etc. Always something to worry about in the US, it seems to the non-Americans reading the American press over the decades.)
The Allies started WW II? In what alternative universe did this happen? The French hardly did any fighting AFTER the war started, let alone before it. If Germany had quit while she was ahead with Poland, Checkoslovakia, and Austria I am sure France and Britain would ahve kept hitting the snooze alarm and gone back to sleep.
I think it's like that in Toronto too.
Hands in my pocket
http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0072251/
Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.
hehehe, SOMEone was gettin' "railroaded"... ahhh've been werrkin' ohn da wrell-wroad... juss to slip the time awayyy....
Talk about a "rail job"... I wonder if that rat had a "derailure" to "slip" into low gear to get off/out in the nick of time... Then again, the track bed is so solid that they probably stay on it just so the train amplifies vibration...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Leave it to an anonymous coward to not do his homework and spout out his positions based on uninformed propaganda peddled by the corporate media and his equally uninformed regional peers.
You don't evaluate excessive funding by the gross revenue or ridership. Its by the net profit, analysis of operational efficiency, and future financial obligations. Controlling the LIRR does not mean they control enough net profit revenue to adequately offset their costs. (The LIRR requires maintenance and operational costs just like the subway.) Whatever subsidy they get from gov't does not match the operational costs OR NEW CONSTRUCTION they "choose" to embark upon.
The big problem with MTA mismanagement was that their "books" were closed until last year. That allowed them to conceal incompetence and graft, and expose their long term strategic planning, or lack thereof. The KEY screwup it to take out loans on operational costs and embark on new construction without funding. This means the loans will be due next year, and interest payments will balloon from that point.
It would be nice if elected politicians had some integrity, actually appointed managers that looked out for the organization and customer interests, and did not interfere with their operation. Instead, the MTA is a big cash cow, which politicians try to use to coerce unsustainably low fares, bad financial management, jobs program and political showcase. The only answer is to fire the political bums for brighter, more conscientious ones.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Unions are naturally economically "inefficient" organizations. Their priority is to their members' salaries, interests, and their organization. Like wise, democracy is a pathetically inefficient organization, who's leaders are chosen by intellectually mediocre majority of its voters. Shall we now discard the Constitution for an intellectual or financial meritocracy?
Furthermore, as someone who has worked in the public sector, I look at unions and organizational bureacracy as a necessary evil, because the alternative is management by the whims of scumbag lawyers, who are the elected legislators and executives.
Have you ever worked in those sweltering, stinking tunnels? Are you willing to lose life or limb in order to rush repairs?
Its simple, you don't need to give out overtime if you have enough qualified technical staff to man required shifts. Again, reality sucks. What alternative are you suggesting?
I live in the Belmont section of the Bronx. Bronx buses are no worse than the other boroughs. If you're really not an idiot, stop focusing on utopian pipedreams, and focus on the critical details. (1) If you can't secure money to complete a 2nd Ave subway line, don't try initiating construction. (2) You can't borrow money to keep fares low for a politician's re-election. (3) Straphangers PIRG, assuming they are a competent, legitimate organization, should hire accountants and transit consultants, and ferret out specific areas where money and service can be improved. (4) If you want to force the union to be more efficient, fine. Be willing to fight for improvements, and suffer service outages caused by union tactics. (5) If you can't take the effort to come to an informed opinion, shut up. If you see a specific way to improve a situation, act, don't whine. If not, stop thinking you're entitled to whine to a national website who don't give a crap about NYC issues.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
The Allies started WW II? In what alternative universe did this happen?
I'm afraid decades of propaganda have clouded your knowledge of history. A simple reading of Wikipedia's article on the subject clearly indicates France and Great Britain declared war on September 3, 1939 "in honour of their defensive alliance with Poland".
For the full year after, Germany worked constantly to bring peace. All the while, France and Great Britain were building their military machine. Do you know of any other great power in history that waited a whole year after another declared war on them? How long must a country wait? Do declarations of war mean nothing?
If France and Britain had no interest in fighting, they should never have declared war in the first place. Whatever else their motives were, the safety and security of Poland ultimately was irrelevant as the supposed "victory" elucidates.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
At least I know what "ad hominem" means...
I don't read or respond to AC posts
i hope they patch their systems, what ever they are.
I live in Tokyo. We have a funny thing called a schedule that is posted at the platform. In order to find out how long you have to wait for the next train you can look at the schedule and then look at your watch. The schedule does not change frequently. Trains typically arrive *exactly* on time (at least to the minute). The trains (with the exception of one line) are run manually. Another poster was talking about figuring out which car to be in to be close to the stairways at the station he's getting off at. We have charts posted in the subway here that tell you what car you should be in to be next to the exits when you get off at station X.
If the Japanese can do it, why can't Americans? Maybe Mussolini made a trip over here prior to WW II. Oh, and the train lines turn a profit as well.
I have been riding the NYC/MTA subway for about 4 yrs at least 2 times a week, I would say I have seen a conductor maybe one out of every three times I ride the train, What I do see are NYPD, MTAPD, and undercover officers all the time ether in the stations or on the train. I think that most of the time I feel safe from crime (panhandlers on the other hand!), but to tell you the truth every time I get on a train the thought passes through my mind "will this be my last ride on the A" I have been stuck in the tunnels on trains for more then twenty minutes at a time, once four holds in 140 + blocks 59th to Dyckman St. for a total of 40 minutes in delays, I was 25 minutes late for work I am usually 15 minutes early. Sitting on a train in a dark underground cavern can be very unsettling. I think as long as the PD presence stays we will be safe as far as crime goes, but the safety and reliability of the system need to be better.
Maxwell L. Barrett Comp-WE-Mentor Software Trainer
Who's talking about changing the Constitution? I'm talking about negotiating contracts with the unions that don't pad them to underserve the system they must maintain. We don't have to choose between subway abuse by the union or by the MTA - we can choose to prioritize the riders, and fix the system. Likewise, we're not faced with a choice between maimed maintenance workers and ontime repairs. There's a balance closer to "everyone working except when they're on break", plus "bottom-heavy staffing of crews with actual labor, rather than supervisors". I don't know what you're reading, but I'm suggesting that they have enough qualified technical staff to man required shifts. Instead of padding teams with people not getting the job done, which forces overtime, which pads the union skim while making repairs take unpredictably longer times.
I live in downtown Brooklyn. I advise the City Council on technology. I, and my committee, are very interested in improving NYC' publication of public info, including transit data. The MTA is a state agency, so we can't actually do anything, except by osmosis - which isn't having any effect. Our "utopian" dream is for New Yorkers to make our own decisions about which path we take to work, and elsewhere, on any given day. Which would let us get more out of the system we pay for in fares and taxes.
If you weren't so entrenched in your resignation to the inadequate status quo, your own self interest would motivate you to look for solutions, rather than excuses. Maybe that's what comes from living in the embattled enclave of Fordham and Arthur Avenue, as the rest of the Bronx has turned to shit from neglect and lack of vision, and Freddy Ferrer. Then you'd read my post, and look at the disproportionate share of the tax budget which serves even "the same" service on Bronx buses, compared to the better-subsidized systems in richer counties.
Again, maybe you replied to the wrong post. I have suggested only publishing the signalling, which is "utopian" only to lazy, arrogant MTA managers and the politicians who love them. I also complained about the $1B MTA theft, which would go a long way to paying for any of these repairs to the system. BTW, The Straphangers (role models for competent legitimacy in NGOs) sued the MTA to stop the rate hike, after discovering and documenting that theft. But the Mayor and Governor won in court, on no legal merit - showing where the bottleneck really is in improving MTA service. My opinion is informed by the facts, by decades of ridership, by a willingness to fight even half-cocked posts like yours, and by hope. Why should I shut up? I'm right, and you're just bitter and conflicted. If all you can hear in my discussions of subway improvement ideas is "whiing", you need to keep your own mouth shut long enough to listen to the ideas. FWIW, if you don't understand my New Yorker's god-given right to complain, regardless of venue, you're some kind of poser who just claims to be a New Yorker to cover up your intellectual weakness, and cowardice in confrontation. See ya in the hole, buddy.
--
make install -not war
Are you one of those nutcases that thinks the Holocaust never happened?
If you live one block from the L, we have something in common, but I do think you missed the fact that the parent is talking about the Paris Metro. Which L stop has two sets of doors?
grammar-lesson free since 1999. (rescinded - 2005)
I'm not sure about South Ferry, but the 4, 5 & 6 platform in the 14th Street Union Square station sports these yellow-painted gadgets. First time I noticed them, I was standing (partially) on the moving part, and as a train approached, the ground beneath my feet shifted. Eeek!
grammar-lesson free since 1999. (rescinded - 2005)
How is that relevant to the topic at hand?
I don't read or respond to AC posts
In the entire history of electromechanical central offices in the Bell System, no central office was ever out of operation for more than thirty minutes for any reason other than a natural disaster. How many times has your VoIP switch crashed?