loband - Killer App for Developing World?

An anonymous reader submits "With recent stories about hardware products for the developing world - namely the MIT Media lab's $100 laptop and the Simputer, its interesting to see a software solution to the problems of internet access. Aidworld, a Cambridge (UK) based organisation specialising in ICTs for the developing world have created a free internet service to speed up web browsing in low bandwidth environments: loband. Using server-side compression and by filtering images, scripts and plugins while retaining content and basic formatting, loband reduces bandwidth requirements by between 5 and 50 times. Its making waves in development circles but it also seems to make for a much leaner browsing experience in this world of heavyweight websites. Could this be a much needed stepping stone for users in developing countries? Do high bandwidth consumers find the sites they view could look much cleaner?"

Comments

3rd World?

[Anonymous Coward]

Using server-side compression and by filtering images, scripts and plugins while retaining content and basic formatting, loband reduces bandwidth requirements by between 5 and 50 times

I wouldn't mind making that standard for cell phone and PDA browsing

Re:3rd World?

[ckaminski]

Once upon a time, I used images for buttons on my website. I'm convinced now, after having run it for some time on a low-bandwidth pipe, that this is stupid. My users should not have to download 250-1000K of data just to view my front page. My site now loads faster now that I've smartened up (and it's on a pipe 10x faster).

I'm sick of pages that load images upon images upon images to throw me ads. It's sickening. And websites that split a 10 paragraph article into 3 or 4 pages of html to increase ad revenue. Sorry, you're just contributing to your own problem, right there... I go elsewhere for my content.

Cheers all.

Re:3rd World?

[Linker3000]

If you're in the UK, try Onspeed then - it does exacly that.

Re:3rd World?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is my impression that the killer app would be corn or rice or something. The lunatics are in control of the asylum.

- Peace -

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Re:3rd World?

[0siris]

And if you're a BT Internet customer you can use it for free - just download the client and use your BT account information.

I find it works really well. The best feature is being able to adjust the compression yourself, so can basically choose to receive higher or lower quality images.

Re:3rd World?

[Anonymous Coward]

First browser I know of that did this sort of thing was one for PalmOS that used a proxy which downloaded the content and reduced the images to be displayed on a monochrome screen (this was before color Palms were available). Interestingly enough, you could it could also show you the contents of zip files and you could even install PalmOS applications contained in them.

Re:3rd World?

[gl4ss]

*I wouldn't mind making that standard for cell phone and PDA browsing*

which is exactly why I thought "YAAAWWWNNNN" when reading this story, the thing is just that old. it was around on major cellphone-network providers at least 2 or 3 years ago.

opera even has had their own service like this for quite a while.

Re:3rd World?

[iamacat]

My users should not have to download 250-1000K of data just to view my front page.

You must mean your new users? After the first visit the buttons will be cached and will not bother people much. And with hand-drawn gifs I bet you can have 1K icons. Nothing to get excited about. I saw chinese websites that load text as one big gif for people without fonts and its usable on a modem.

Put the blame where it belongs - applets, flash and tool-generated HTML that has a table for every element.

Offer this for ALL customers?

[LiquidCoooled]

I don't care that I have fast broadband, I want the option of cleaning the html up and speeding my web experience.

Every second counts.

Re:Offer this for ALL customers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. Let's make the servers less bloated in the first place, never mind tacking on a band-aid for low-bandwidth users.

Re:Offer this for ALL customers?

[RichM]

If every website used XHTML and linked CSS stylesheets then the world would be a much better (and faster!) place.
For exanple, take a site like this:
http://www.nthwclan.com/ut2004/

It's written in XHTML and the code is lightweight, averaging about 3K per page.
You also have:
http://www.nthwclan.com/ut2004/?no_css
...which is about 500 bytes less, for mobile platforms.

Such a site can be viewed on literally any device because the code is so lightweight.
If this were done in Slashdot-style HTML 3.x markup then the page would probably be in excess of 20 KB and therefore useless for mobile browsing.

Ouch.

[gardyloo]

loband - Killer App for Developing World?

I knew that overpopulation is a concern, but this is ridiculous.

And pr0n?

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, if pr0n is what makes internet happen, how is loband expected to actually have success?

Re:And pr0n?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, you underestimate geek resourcefulness. Pr0n always finds a way.

Smart but not needed

[has2k1]

Trying to design a $100 dollar laptop for starving users or kids who still go to schools where blackboards are mounted on trees is not a feasible idea.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

feasibility when defined in corporate america stands for any cash cow - be it starving users or dying kids - who cares as long as america gets to cash in.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Spodlink05]

Trying to design a $100 dollar laptop for starving users or kids who still go to schools where blackboards are mounted on trees is not a feasible idea.

Because they don't believe in stupid stereotypes.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Reaperducer]

Yes, those are sterotypes. But that doesn't make them untrue.

They are very real situations for thousands of children. The number of people in the world living in homes made of straw and mud with no electricity, running water, or even floors might surprise you.

$100 laptops is a good idea for developing regions.
But there are also regions where a $100 laptop is beyond the realm of possibility.

Re:Smart but not needed

[eyeye]

The number of people in the world living in homes made of straw and mud with no electricity, running water, or even floors

Why dont they just sell their levitation technology to the west, they'd be rich!

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

Well, there IS something useful about such a concept. You have to consider the social effects of such a development:

1. Networks optimized for the third world give them the equivalent of a telephone system, only better. Once everyone can communicate with everyone, cooperation becomes a lot easier.

2. The cheap laptops give them the ability to communicate not only with each other, but with the rest of the world. They get to see how everyone else lives, and compare it with how they live. And they get to see that things CAN be different, which makes them want to make things different.

3. Once they have the ability to communicate with everyone, and they have the desire to improve their surroundings, access to information from the rest of the world might give them ideas about how to actually change things. They might look for ways to improve irrigation, for example. Or ways to prevent their houses from having a leaky roof. Or even things as simple as learning how to bake bricks from clay, to make better houses.

4. The more they know, and the more they change, the more they will WANT to know and change. And things will accelerate significantly. I don't expect them to accept changes to their culture, rather, I expect them to want to learn operational things, skills and trades, engineering. That sort of thing. They'll pick and choose, and get what they want.

Access to knowledge is an extremely liberating, empowering thing. It's like the old saw, "dont give a man a fish, teach him how to fish".

The third world doesn't need to be taken care of by the first world; it needs to learn how to take care of itself, without the first world's help.

Then it doesn't NEED the first world. See?

Re:Smart but not needed

[figgypower]

Why is this marked as flaimbait, really? I realize the post stereotypes and exaggerates -- but there is some truth. I realize that a $100 laptop for eastern Europe would be great, and all the social benefits that this would create (i.e. increased communication, cooperation, etc.). However, as a Bengali-American, let me tell you that $100 is still a LOT of money for much of the developing world. It'd be like telling an American that, guess what, I've made you a $10,000 device that will revolutinize your life. Yeah, well it truly may. That doesn't change the fact that no one except the upper crust is going to be able to afford it AND no one except the upper crust is going to see the promise of such a device.

Re:Smart but not needed

[squidinkcalligraphy]

I'm currently teaching high school kids in London, which in general is a pain in the arse, as the kids tend to be brats who have little or no respect for their teachers (or any authority). A couple of weeks ago I was chatting to a teacher also working in London, but originally from Kenya, where she taught beforehand. She was saying the difference was mainly that in developing countries, the students absolutely, truly want to learn, and at school give everything they have, knowing that education is the only way to make their life easier. But many classrooms lack, oh, boards, floors, etc...

Jump back to London, where every second classroom now has an interactive whiteboard, computers are being rolled out as fast as a media circus forming around Prince Charles, and the kids use it for... games. Fuck that: don't give developing countries $100 computers, give them the $1000 ones that are being wasted on the so called developed countries - hey they're already developed, so they shouldn't need them, right?

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, the parent is modded as a flamebate, but there's a valid point of referring to Maslov, too.
A substantial portion of the 3rd world is busy trying to find fresh water or something to eat for the day and hence not very interested in faster browsing experience. (Yes, on a larger scale consentrating on agricultural and/or more relevant infrastructural improvements.)

Not all, but some.

Re:Smart but not needed

[say]

Mods! INSIGHTFUL?

a) Obviously, not every developing country has general starvation and only ad-hoc schools. In fact, none of them have.

b) Obviously, a 100 laptop is "not needed". Nothing except food and water is "needed".

c) Obviously, technology and communication are essential parts of making a "developing country" into a "developed country"

Obviously, the poster of parent has watched too much TV. The "developing world" is not all starvation, flies and wars. There are cities! And food! And (*gasp*) telephones! And computers!

Re:Smart but not needed

[say]

I think you have a pretty naive image of the world. You seem to believe that if poor people only knew how good it is to be rich, they will start making changes to become rich? So, what do you suppose they are doing right now? Do you think the problem of starvation is due to lack of motivation for agriculture?

I'm sorry for bashing you this hard, but I often meet people in western countries who seem to think that the developing world could become rich if they only knew or only tried harder. I believe there are quite a few structural hurdles as well. Western companies' interest in keeping a low-pay workforce for coffee, shoes, cocoa etc. is one of those hurdles. Tax barriers in developed regions is another hurdle. And lacking economic strength makes it in itself hard to develop a stronger economy (ironically), because it makes it extremely hard to defend your currency, interest rate and your companies from hostile foreign takeovers.

Re:Smart but not needed

[synthespian]

Fuck that: don't give developing countries $100 computers, give them the $1000 ones that are being wasted on the so called developed countries - hey they're already developed, so they shouldn't need them, right?

Although I empathize with your troubles teaching spoiled kids, I have to say I found the technologies mentioned in this /. post pretty amazing, and found them to be in sharp contrast with what is being done in my own country.
I live in Brazil and just today I read in the morning newspaper about PC Conectado, which is supposed to be Brazil's answer to the problem of computer technology for the masses, and I found those technologies (the $100,00 laptop, the simputer, and the loband thing) to be quite an advance in terms empowering technology, concepts, and efforts to bring technology to the people.
The PC Conectado, in contrast, will sell for R$1,400 (that's US$ 535 at today's exchange rate). The high-fallutin' high-priests of Brazil's Free Software community are ecstatic because it'll come loaded with F/OSS software. That's good, but Brazil's minimum wage is R$ 260,00 ( = US$ 99 ), so PC Conectado is way expensive. In fact, it appears to be a stripped-down PC, and costing around what a stripped-down PC costs. It's not as cheap as it ought to be. Wal-Mart, the cheapo department store in USA, has 'puters for less (I've checked here today.)
So, in contrasting these 3 projects with the PC Conectado, I found nice food-for-thought. Here are my 2 cents futurology and thoughts:
1) While Free Software is nice, it may not be what people want, because it might not correspond to what people expect. It might just be that when people learn they can't play Windows warez games or office software in PC Conectado, they will uninstall GNU/Linux. Currently, for medium wage jobs in Brazil, the job market demmands some expertise in Windows software, and some might want to buy a PC to get that expertise and hone skills in Excel or whatever. If your hardware allows shifting to Windows, will they stick to GNU/Linux? I don't think so...
2) What is really needed is cheap hardware. You can't cheat like PC Conectado. You need $ 100 laptops. Cheap means cheap.
3) If you have custom hardware, there is no "turning back" to proprietary software.
4) Research groups must focus on new concepts. Old concepts will not only cost more, they might backfire. When you take low income populations, their whole model of what's "top" might be what is the dominant technology (and we know that's not the best choice).
5) Internet access is not a luxury. It's as much of a luxury as library access is a luxury. "The net is the computer." (TM Sun Microsystems) :-)
6) Hand in hand with this custom new hardware an net technologies, we need to teach children what computer programming is.Developing countries do *not* need government-subsidized programs to teach people to use Microsoft software. In the long run, this will empower developing countries and create a virtuous circle.
So, IMHO, "the $1000 ones [computers] that are being wasted on the so called developed countries" isn't gonna cut it. I really think governments of developing world must foster research groups with innovative ideas.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

$100 is too much for most 3rd world individuals, but it is very affordable for a village. That is how computerization is spreading in rural India. One person in a village buys a computer with a wireless hookup, and rents time to the other people who want to use it for things like checking crop prices, e-mailing relatives, and reading government health information.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi crazyphilman,

Are you interested in working for us? We could always use good advocates with good ideas :-)

(chris wilson) aidworld chief engineer (chris@aidworld.org)

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

Absolutely. I think a very cheap laptop is inevitable. It's not a new idea, either; it's been floating around science fiction for years and years. An idea that interesting, in my opinion, is almost inevitable. One novel described laptops whose casings were made of plasticized straw, cheaply put together with inexpensive components. Almost like a salvage job... Another one described laptops made of paper composites, with printed-out circuit boards. And just this past year, didn't a company figure out how to print electronic circuits with a new process? Things are getting so interesting lately!

I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's going to change things for a lot of people.

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

No, I don't think the $1000.00 computers are a good idea for the third world; they're nice, and powerful, but they don't fit the environment they'd be going to. For a computer to be useful in the third world, it needs to be:

1. Very durable, waterproof and shockproof with a battery you can charge up *without* a dependable source of electric power.
2. Very cheap, not just for the initial purchase, but so you can replace it easily if it gets stolen or destroyed.
3. Easy to use.

The expensive computers you're talking about wouldn't survive the first monsoon, and they wouldn't be replaceable. What good would they be? What people need is a whole *new* design, something relatively waterproof and tough, but at the same time cheap. It's a whole paradigm change, I think.

You know, if they pull it off, the West is going to jump on the idea, too, because EVERYONE will want one. Which will make it that much easier for third-world people to interact with the rest of the world (enhancing the process).

Re:Smart but not needed

[fireboy1919]

1) Waterproof is impossible if you want to see the screen. Shockproof is almost impossible because of the harddrive.

They're not going to be playing catch with them. What they need is something that can protect these units while not in use, like during a monsoon. This isn't an issue with the units, it's a case issue. A nice $50 waterproof, suspension mounting case will do nicely enough. Heck, if they know bad weather is coming, they could even move them to a secure location/shelter.

The battery thing is very, very easy. The thing where computers can only have one type of voltage source that we have right now is basically a scam. A fancy voltage regulator with brownout protection that will do a fixed voltage output from a wide range of inputs is about a dollar if you buy one, and about five cents if you buy more than 10000.
2) Its $100. The next one will be $100. What's the issue?

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

Pardon me, but you missed the point I was trying to make.

It's not about the third world suddenly wanting to become suburan American-type consumers. It has nothing to do with that at all.

What I mean is, for example:

A man who currently lives in a shack sees an article on the net about brick houses and adobe. He looks at his shack, looks at an adobe house, and thinks "That might be better". So he reads about how to make adobe or brick, digs clay, makes a kiln, and puts a better home together. Without spending money. Without any help from the West. It's HIS, he built it, all because he saw an idea he found interesting. Other people in his village find it interesting and do the same thing themselves.

So they are having problems with their crops. They want to know how to get more rice, or corn, or sweet potatoes, out of the same area of land. So one of their kids looks it up. They start trying different agricultural methods. Their food output gets better, they try more things, and it gets better again.

Or, they're having trouble with some kind of wild animal coming into their farm and killing their animals. They look up designs for different kinds of traps online, and catch the animal.

I am NOT talking about them suddenly wanting televisions, or to be rich. I'm talking about them being able to learn things that actually HELP them. Useful stuff. That's one thing the web is extremely good at providing, you know. Pretty much anything you might want to do has a "how-to" article somewhere.

During THIS decade, it would probably be only the kids using the computers, because along with the computers would be some kind of reading/writing/arithmatic education. But those kids grow up, and teach their kids. And so on.

Within a few decades, you have a country of people who are VERY self-sufficient and capable, who are used to the concept of researching solutions to problems. And THAT is the point of all this.

Understand where I'm going, now? I'm talking "How-To", not "MTV".

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, Chris:

I'd love to work for you, I just checked out your website and it'd be wonderful to be involved in an organization like that. But I've kind of put down roots in my current organization (I do programming and system development for a social services agency in state government) and it'd be a pretty big change for me.

But thank you very much for the compliment, and I hope you and your organization succeed! I would love to see the third world break free of the problems it's currently facing. I think technology can go a long way to level the playing field for a lot of these people. It's all about access to knowledge; whether it comes from books or the web, it changes things for whomever gains it.

I'm delighted to meet you, by the way.

Phil

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

1) Waterproof is impossible if you want to see the screen. Shockproof is almost impossible because of the harddrive.

Not true! I'm typing this on an old mil-spec laptop I got on Ebay, and this laptop is (if not submersible) effectively waterproof and (thanks to a protective harness around its hard drive and its LCD) shockproof. My screen looks pretty good; it's sunlight-viewable, too. You're thinking of consumer laptop tech. "There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy"... Do a Google search on the terms "MIL-STD-810", "IP-54", "shock-mounted", "Marinized", "Toughbook 28" (mine), "Getac", and "Amrel Rocky" for some more information on this subject. Most of the military laptops are extraordinarily expensive, so don't freak out; the shock-mounting and waterproofing isn't terribly hard to handle, most of the cost comes from custom-building the mil-spec laptops from molded magnesium or aluminum and so forth. Well, AND because the government has deep pockets, ha ha.

All you need to do to make a laptop water resistant and shockproof is:

1. Rubber-mount the LCD and the hard drive, and look into alternative LCD technologies that don't involve thin glass plates (like the electronic paper they mentioned in an article I read about the 100.00 computer).

2. Give the laptop a case that is water resistant and a rubber keyboard (which, by the way, are easier to manufacture than normal keyboards because you just have one mold to fill instead of a multitude of separate keys and key sizes).

Why don't you like the idea? What's the big deal? Make the laptop so it won't break easily... One would think this would be a GOOD thing.

About your voltage point, you're missing the point. A villager will not have access to lots of electrical power. So, the concept listed by the $100 computer guys was a computer that can be charged via hand-crank. THIS is what I was alluding to.

About the $100.00... I consider that a good price point, and I wasn't challenging it. What I was trying to say was, the computer the third world needs should be at this price point so they can replace it if necessary, not much more expensive like Western computers. So I think this was a misunderstanding on your part of what I was trying to say. ;)

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Hard drives? Why do you need them?

I can't see these systems needing a great amount of storage space, a few hundred meg maybe a gig. Flash memory is perfectly adequate for that, its also going to consume less power which as another reply to this post says is very important as there may not be any mains power.

Re:Smart but not needed

[fireboy1919]

Well, if you've had good luck with those rugged laptops, maybe I'm wrong.

I've heard that they can't stand getting water spilled on them for more than a few seconds and they'll still break if you drop them more than four feet. If you've actually tried these tests and had good success, then I'd definitely like to know more about it.

As far as the voltage thing, you're obviously not knowledgable about such things.
Flexible voltage regulator+any source of power at all=charging.

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

Well, my Panasonic is pretty much rainproof. I've read about a number of pretty horrible tests this model line has been subjected to, and it's pretty impressive. I've never dropped it more than four feet, but a while ago I dropped an Itronix laptop from almost eight feet (actually, I threw it at the floor with some force). It had to be rebooted, but it was fine afterwards. I thought that was pretty impressive. The shock-mounting in my Panasonic is very interesting; it's a silicone sleeve that fits around the hard drive, plus a thin steel shell that fits around that, with flexible, light cables.

I don't know where you've heard about mil-spec laptops, but I think your source is way off the mark. The brands I follow (Panasonic, Itronix, Getac, and Amrel) are considered to be pretty bulletproof. I get mine from Ebay, and generally spend less than a thousand dollars. For example, a Panasonic CF-28 with some extras ran me around 900 bucks, total. I think that's a good value for a laptop that was originally around 4,000 bucks. And they're engineered very, very well. I really don't think you can go wrong with a Panasonic. It's an excellent machine. The LCD is armored, too, with a hard plastic plate. Wonderful.

As far as the voltage thing, you're really being ridiculous and your point is a little thoughtless. The issue here is, villagers won't always HAVE a "source of power". What good is your voltage regulator then? Or would you prefer that they have to find some central source of power, so that some external group has the power to deny them the use of their laptop? Your point of view has not been fully considered. MY point is that the hand crank solution suggested by the $100 laptop guys is brilliant, because it grants all power over access to the laptop to the laptop's OWNER, whether he has electric service or NOT. This applies to poor people, too. Electric power shut off because you missed the bill? No problem; you still have your laptop and can run it anyway.

You aren't reading my posts. No hard feelings, though. :)

Re:Smart but not needed

[Minna Kirai]

but why not just identify yourself as loband?

Add another decimal place for that to make sense. $100 is more than 1 year of work in the 3rd world, but a USA resident at minimum wage earns more than $10,000 annually.

Re:Smart but not needed

[say]

Well, I never said MTV. What I was saying is that it isn't just know-how that's stopping developing countries from becoming developed countries. They probably know a lot more about building houses and crowing crops in their area than we will ever know, and certainly more than google will tell you.

Although internet access is nice to have for everyone, information is not the major blocker for developing regions. The structural, economic hurdles are the most important blocker.

What my reply had to do with everyone becoming americanish consumers, I don't know. My points still stand. Africa (for instance) isn't a bunch of uncivilized, primitive tribes who throw magical spells instead of fertilizer on their crops. Their development is stopped by structural hurdles, unstable political situations, and direct exploitation from western countries.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between 'floors' and the ground! but that's probably difficult to appreciate from a first world perspective.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

I often meet people in western countries who seem to think that the developing world could become rich if they only knew or only tried harder.

Well. Take this for what it's worth - I'm not trying to be a troll. You make some very good points.

I recently spent some time in Afghanistan as part of one of the provincial reconstruction teams. I saw many, and worked on some, projects that weren't aimed at making people rich - just somewhat more prosperous and self sufficient.

The depth of laziness exhibited by so many of the Afghani people blew my mind.

A couple of examples. One village needed a well - the two they used to have had been destroyed by the Taliban as retribution for something or other. Anyway, one of their residents had the equipment to dig the well ... they had a lot of unemployed, able-bodied adult males living there ... but they wouldn't actually dig the well until we PAID them to do it. Until we paid their people to use their equipment to dig a well for them, they chose to make the 2 km round trip walk to the river.

In another village, I met with an elder to discuss a small irrigation project. He was very gracious, intelligent, educated - he invited us into his home for a wonderful meal. And lounging around his house were at least 25 members of his extended family (men, of course; the women were hidden). Perhaps 10 or 15 of them appeared to be healthy adults of working age. He said they did no work, just slept in late, went to cafes to drink tea, maybe smoke a bit, come home, eat his food, and go to sleep again. The reason the irrigation project had stalled? No money to pay laborers. Why couldn't any of the unemployed residents of the village kick in a few hours with a shovel to help out their neighbors? Shrug.

Later, we talked about the local police not doing their jobs. Not because they were outnumbered or outgunned ... not because they were getting killed ... not because their families were being kidnapped and beheaded ... but because they weren't being paid enough. I mentioned that 230 years ago, when my country was just getting started, the people who resisted didn't hold out for a larger paycheck from the Italians. They picked up guns and fought for the future of my nation. Blank stare.

Don't get me wrong, it was rewarding work and great progress was made ... but yeah, I guess I'm one of those people you sometimes meet in western countries who thinks that at least one corner of the developing world could become more self-sufficient (not necessarily rich) if they just got off their lazy asses and picked up a shovel.

So why don't they? I left with the impression that they either a) don't believe in, or b) can't imagine a life any different from their parents'. Consequently, they were unwilling to work for change. Frequently, the problem wasn't that they were unable to help themselves. They were unwilling. I still try to respect their culture, to see their perspective.

But in the end, I think their culture is fundamentally flawed, and the only way it will change is if the next generation can see how the rest of the world lives. So yes - I'd have to agree that pervasive, cheap, uncensored communication with the rest of the world is a necessary first step.

Note that I said nothing about trying to turn them into Big Mac eatin' Wal-Mart consumin' Nascar watchin' lazy Americans. I'm talking about basic improvements to their lives.

I think you underestimate the impact of the cultural isolation so much of the developing world is subject to, and the degree to which cheap, open communications with the rest of the world could change that.

Re:Smart but not needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Africa (for instance) isn't a bunch of uncivilized, primitive tribes who throw magical spells instead of fertilizer on their crops. Their development is stopped by structural hurdles, unstable political situations, and direct exploitation from western countries.

Er, in many places, those "unstable political situations" are typically a direct consequence of the fact that they tend to be divided up into warring, uncivilized tribes.

Were it not for the fact that they've adopted the AK-47 and RPG, I'd call them primitive, too.

Re:Smart but not needed

[fireboy1919]

Actually, I did read your post, but failed to see that you wouldn't understand the implications. A hand crank delivers power when you use it. Therefore, it can be considered a source of power. A battery with a good voltage regulator would charge via hand-crank. The reason my laptop doesn't work via handcrank is that it doesn't have a very flexible version of this cool yet unbelievably inexpensive component.

Designing a handcrank is a matter of...well, actually it's not much of a design issue. You need a bit of wire and two sticks. That's pretty much it. They're so cheap as to be free by comparison to the price of the laptop, or even the voltage regulator.

I assume you already know this. Therefore, I mentioned the only missing, nontrivial piece of the puzzle: how to get power from the handcrank, or from temperature differentials, or from a treadmill, or even from an actual electrical grid, into the laptop.

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

Ah; I see the disconnect between our sides of the conversation. I had assumed the regulator between the hand crank and the laptop would be part of the crank assembly, because they had described it as a single system provided all together. I was wondering what you were talking about, why you were worrying about a regulator when the hand crank had already been described as being part of the system.

No problem; "sorted" as the English say. ;)

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

An A/C said:

" Hard drives? Why do you need them?

I can't see these systems needing a great amount of storage space, a few hundred meg maybe a gig. Flash memory is perfectly adequate for that, its also going to consume less power which as another reply to this post says is very important as there may not be any mains power."

A side benefit of this approach is you don't have to worry about a hard drive with moving parts, and you can get away without having to shock-mount it. Chip-based storage is very durable in comparison.

Cool...

Re:Smart but not needed

[crazyphilman]

"They probably know a lot more about building houses and crowing crops in their area than we will ever know, and certainly more than google will tell you."

Ok, pop quiz: which area is more advanced, agriculturally: a third-world jungle nation struggling to grow sweet potatoes as a staple and vulnerable to variations in weather and environment, or the American Midwest, which produces so much agricultural product that it not only feeds the U.S. but much of the rest of the world as well?

Question 2: Where are you more likely to attend a university to learn agricultural engineering? The American Midwest? Or the hills of Thailand?

Or, here's one: If your yoda-like super-knowledgeable third-worlders know how to make houses better than we do, WHY DON'T THEY? Why do all the shacks I've seen overseas (both with my own eyes and in the news) look like they're made of scrap wood, cardboard boxes, and pieces of rusty metal? Are you honestly telling me that you think those people wouldn't be interested in better ways of building a house for themselves? Do you really expect me to believe that???

Sorry to "beat you up like this" but you're totally, hopelessly, incorrect.

The difference between the West and the Third World is NOT just caused by exploitation and corrupt governments.

The difference is the West has a several thousand year head start in the aquisition of scientific and technical know-how. This is an advantage the third world has NO CHANCE of overcoming on their own.

The ONLY way the third world has a chance of coming into the twenty-first century with the rest of us is if WE HELP THEM DO IT. What they need is technology transfer. Know-how. Education. And exposure to new ideas.

This laptop plan is brilliant, and I hope they succeed. The raw power of making information available to third-world people, of showing them areas of knowledge they would NEVER have had access to otherwise, is just mind-boggling. It's capable of transforming their world, plain and simple.

Are structural and economic problems a major problem for the third world? Sure.

But knowledge and know-how go a long way towards solving those problems. The first step is an educated, knowledgeable population. Don't give them fish -- teach them to fish.

I'm sorry, but I don't respect your point of view. I think it's thoughtless and shallow. You're essentially saying "We cannot help the third world because their governments are corrupt, and the big nasty west is exploiting them, so it's pointless to try anything at all."

Your point of view is morally indefensible.

Re:Smart but not needed

[say]

f your yoda-like super-knowledgeable third-worlders know how to make houses better than we do, WHY DON'T THEY?

Why do all the shacks I've seen overseas (both with my own eyes and in the news) look like they're made of scrap wood, cardboard boxes, and pieces of rusty metal? Are you honestly telling me that you think those people wouldn't be interested in better ways of building a house for themselves?

Well, first of all, most people living in shacks live in shacks because they don't have money for anything more. But also because other commodities than houses are more important in temperate climates. The Norwegian government (I'm Norwegian, so I only know Norwegian aid history) has made many mistakes when they tried to build houses around the world. They generally turn out to be too hot, too expensive to maintain, socially unacceptable and so on.

I'm not saying know-how isn't important in aid. But local knowledge has long been underestimated in aid projects, leading to disasters. Read up on aid projects causing famine (due to some idea on introducing new plants), disease (due to (actually) houses becoming infested) and general poverty (due to many different reasons, for instance introducing too much food into a market).

I totally agree that education is a key to welfare. I can't understand how you arrive at the conclusion that I disagree.

I'm definitely not saying that we can't help the (so-called) third world because it's pointless. I am, however, saying that laptops with Internet is not going to put a lot of money in the hands of unhappy shack-owners all over Africa, and therefore, it won't help how many ideas they get about how they want their house to be like.

Know-how and education is one part of development. Economy and structural factors another. Stability and peace yet another. Development comes from strengthening them all.

You're essentially saying "We cannot help the third world because their governments are corrupt, and the big nasty west is exploiting them, so it's pointless to try anything at all."

Build strawman. Bash. Bash. Bash.

(And please notice again: I did never say it was bad to spread laptops across Africa)

I feel morally defensible, thank you very much. The person you see in your head while thinking of me I'm not ready to defend.

food....

[orufet]

Shouldn't we help them out with the things they need most in the developing world, rather than technology?

Re:food....

[bleckywelcky]

Actually, giving them food hurts them more in the long run. Because each time we give them food, more people become dependent on us. Instead, we should give them picks and shovels to grow their own food. Then, they are only dependent on us for picks and shovels.

Next, we give them some manufacturing equipment, and stop giving them picks and shovels. Then they are only dependent on us for manufacturing equipment.

Finally, we give them money, and stop giving them manufacturing equipment. Then they are only dependent on us for money. That's where we are with a lot of countries currently. Now, we need to phase out the free money we give them.

Re:food....

[Spodlink05]

Finally, we give them money, and stop giving them manufacturing equipment. Then they are only dependent on us for money. That's where we are with a lot of countries currently. Now, we need to phase out the free money we give them.

Free money? What do you think Third World Debt is?

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't we help them out with the things they need most in the developing world, rather than technology?

The theory behind developing technology for the developing world is called "leapfrogging". Basically, instead of handing over a bunch of stuff that they need to survive (and thus, making them dependent), give them things they need to become relatively independent.

Modern economies are all interconnected, so this doesn't mean "self-sufficient" -- it means to create a modern economy.

The ideal is for all countries of the world to compete with one another on equal footing, without any exploiting any other. Unfortunately this is prevented equally by protectionist policies from the right and anti-capitalist policies from the left.

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

One could argue that the thing they need most actually is technology.

Re:food....

[scsirob]

"Give them food, they will live for one day. Teach them how to grow food and they will live forever". Wasn't it Ghandy that said these famous words?!?

Re:food....

[Lemmy Caution]

The entire term "developing" world is problematic. It assumes a teleology: that societies like the US and Europe are at some ideal state that others need to aspire to, that levels of consumption and production are the indices of progress.

I'm not an anti-technologist who idealizes pre-modern ways of life, and I think it's a good thing if kids all around the world can get vaccines and medical care. But not every not-first-world society is just a mess of problems, and the problems aren't all the same everywhere. Most places actually have enough to eat most of the time; some areas are occassionally subject to famine due to reasons environmental, political, and economic. Many have sustainable economies where people aren't starving at all and things are generally OK--the biggest difference between their way of life and those in the "first world" is that they watch TV together in a public space, instead of having one at home, and that they take jitneys instead of driving; others are struggling with disease and sanitation issues, or war, or oppressive governments, or widespread crime. Maybe having internet connections in some of these areas will be helpful, maybe they won't. These things are entirely local issues: no single attitude or policy about "the developing world" is useful.

So maybe the first thing to do is to actually listen and learn from the people who you want to help, and not assume that you can characterize over half the world was one model.

Re:food....

[jimboisbored]

I believe it's give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life. sooooo.... close enough.

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Lau Tzu actually.

Re:food....

[torinth]

Nobody gives them free money. Even today, we see how the social cost of what money is offered often comes at a terribly high cost--the result of lending policies that absolutely nobody has enough experience to get right (yet). Even though you want to make the answers to third-world development sound simple, it repeatedly demonstrates itself as being beyond every program's and individual's expectations.

You sound interested, so Read up, buddy, and expand your mind at the expense of your confidence.

Re:food....

[lightknight]

Do we expect them to repay it? I don't think so...

Re:food....

[Jimmy The Leper]

Actually I think it goes: Give a man a fish and he owes you one fish, teah a man to fish and you give up your monopoly on fisheries.

Re:food....

[torinth]

Brilliant. ;)

Re:food....

[Deliveranc3]

Bugger giving them manufacturing equipment... give them the specifications for all the devices then they can build what they need and compete with western companies in manufacturing.

Re:food....

[Deagol]

That's the general concept behind Heifer International. They give people livestock so that they may propogate their own food supply.

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Acutally it goes:

Give a man fire and he will be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Re:food....

[Spodlink05]

Do we expect them to repay it? I don't think so...

Yes, and they are. Many of the third world countries spend more of their GDP paying back the interest, never mind the debt, than they do on healthcare and education and all the other things they should be spending money on.

Re:food....

[chris_eineke]

That's one of those vicious circles or cyclic arguments:
To have people survive they will need food and water, but how do you get food and water to the people? They'll need transportation and infrastructure to distribute food and water, but how can they transport goods if they're starving to death or dieing with thirst because there is no food?

Re:food....

[insert_username_here]

It assumes a teleology: that societies like the US and Europe are at some ideal state that others need to aspire to, that levels of consumption and production are the indices of progress.

If that means having food, then sign me up!

Of course, it's not necessarily that simple...

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhh...But then they just stage a coup, overthrow the current regime, rename the country and the debt is gone...

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Or better, try reading http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393324397/ qid=1113695736/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-4432901 -5777541 It happen to be the most insightful read i have ever come across.

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Help with diseases also. That's a big problem, some of them do not understand the help process and are afraid of the health workers sent to assist them.

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the USA backs the coup/invades the country, takes over its key industries and tries to get back its money.

Re:food....

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I think it goes: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll spend the rest of his life drinking beer and hanging out with his fishing buddies.

Re:food....

[jav27]

I agree. All these discussions assume that the rest of the world is people living in rags barely eating, without electricity or roads, living in isolation in a hut, breeding 15 babies per women, begging once again for the return of their white masters to bring the wonders of the internet so they can grow food and become more US/european Hey, I come from a country in the developing world. People eat, and wear clothes, and we have paved roads, and cell phones and malls, and online shopping and other "first world" amenities. and the "poverty" we have is not because not everybody has a computer, and it will not dissapear just because people can log in to check hotmail from their homes. (Internet cafes are very popular with cheap prices). Our problems have to deal more with a basic lack of confidence in the goverment and the economy, which discourages investment and job creation.

Re:food....

[Lemmy Caution]

There is a good book about how the weakness of certain government institutions makes the level of private investment required to fuel a business environment (particularly for manufacturing or trade) difficult. It's called The Mystery of Capital, by Hernando de Soto. Essentially, when the cadastral apparatus that lets people leverage the value of their own lands is too weak, its difficult to mobilize mass investment. Foreign investment doesn't really build up enough local wealth to do long-term development. This isn't a universal problem, but in places like Peru (the area I know best) it's a real part of the problem; it's why good land reform is essentially, and bad land reform is disastrous.

The killer app

[shadowmatter]

Sim City?

Mobile

[MHobbit]

This would be great if it was used for mobile phones as well: you keep the general layout, albeit lose the images.

Another unforseen benefit is that you can prevent your son from watching pr0n on their new cell phone.

Re:Mobile

[bleckywelcky]

While your daughter gets free range of all the pr0n available?

Re:Mobile

[MHobbit]

Text pr0n? :-/

Re:Mobile

[Anonymous Coward]

I wearng red bra n panti. wat u got 0n?

Rproxy

[Mitchell Mebane]

Hell, I just want rproxy. I'm stuck on dial-up out where I live, and I'd gladly trade a few CPU cycles for faster access to the sites I regularly browse.

Not really much...

[vidarlo]

I'm using Firefox with Adblock extension. This blocks out unwanted images, and in addition, I block out certain elements of my internet banking provider, like uneeded images, and such. This speeds up browsing, as I'm on 56K modem. I don't see how browsing with images turned off or having privoxy or adblock do blacklisting is different from this new service... Seriously, it is not that kind of stuff that is needed. Modem is fine for surfing the web, but not for downloading. So if they want a ISO, loband won't help at all...

Re:Not really much...

[LiquidCoooled]

Turning images off is a really good way to reduce the bandwidth, and your right, in extreme circumstances, makes the difference between finding some information, or waiting a long time.

However, simply turning off the images doesn't really help, because some sites look god damned awful without them, and have no way to indicate the navigatable links.

This loband service reduces the complexity of html and reencodes the images to save bandwidth.

Sites are meant to remain workable, just load faster.

Re:Not really much...

[richy486]

When I lived on campus I turned off images to save money. So yeah! good idea!

Re:Not really much...

[hacker]

"I'm using Firefox with Adblock extension. This blocks out unwanted images, and in addition, I block out certain elements of my internet banking provider, like uneeded images, and such. This speeds up browsing, as I'm on 56K modem."

As I'm sure you know, AdBlock doesn't "block" ads from being downloaded to your local browser's cache, it just blocks them from being displayed by your browser. Your browsing can't possibly be "faster" in terms of remote server sending you data, because its the same amount of data, whether you block all images or not. Your browser just happens to render pages faster, because its rendering less elements on the page.

Re:Not really much...

[vidarlo]

As I'm sure you know, AdBlock doesn't "block" ads from being downloaded to your local browser's cache, it just blocks them from being displayed by your browser.

Yes it does. You can choose in the options window whatever you want them hidden or removed.

I have proxy server logs as proof :)

Sorry to be cynical, but..

[Capt'n Hector]

The developing world doesn't need fast web browsing. It needs less corrupt leaders, and excused world bank debts. Sure, infrastructure is pretty high on the need list, but drinking water, sewers and power come WAY before faster internet. That said, I'm sure porn would go a long way to stem the AIDS epidemic...

Re:Sorry to be cynical, but..

[lakin]

They may not need it, but does that mean this organisation shouldnt provide it anyway? You can see aidworlds objective here. These are clearly open source developers trying to help developing countries. If they agreed with you that these countries dont need fast web browsing, they would probably not fly over there and build a sewer network, but would just turn to another open source project or company. So, the developing world has gained something they dont need, but not at the expense of the things they do need.

Re:Sorry to be cynical, but..

[drinkypoo]

building a sewer network would help some of those people a lot more than the server network they ae building.

Re:Sorry to be cynical, but..

[say]

Development isn't a waterfall where one thing comes after the other. A few internet based companies doing great business could bring around the initiative needed for a better power infrastructure. It makes more sense to invest money in power when it also generates more dividends, in terms of new businesses paying taxes and employing people.

We, the western world, do not exactly develop in a particularily streamlined way. It would be strange if the developing countries were suppose to follow a different recipe than we have.

Re:Sorry to be cynical, but..

[NanoGator]

"The developing world doesn't need fast web browsing. It needs less corrupt leaders..."

Wouldnt broad access to uncensored information help deal with this problem?

Editing for size?

[grant murray]

There have been several articles recently about proxies and other applications that do convenience editing of web content, maybe breaking a "social contract". This looks like another example. I wonder if content producers have any issues with this kind of service. Or does reaching a larger audience justify "editing for size" changes?

Not a big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

AOL have had this for a decade or more. It makes images look like crap.

The amount of time it takes to download images isn't a concern to developing nations. They can always switch images off, and load them selectively for those websites run by morons who don't know what an alt attribute is.

Adblock

[KiloByte]

It's a good idea to heavily use adblock as well. As an average page refers to several advertising services, knocking them out will usually reduce the number of DNS queries by 2/3 and bandwidth use by like half. The key is to not limit it to just images, but gratuiously give wildcard bans to entire domains that have something with "counter" or "ad" in name.

And as a side effect... yeah, you'll have no ads as well.

Re:Adblock

[antdude]

Yep, this true especially on my 3 KB/sec dial-up connections. I see significant differences. Note this is without images when I surf the Web.

Re:Adblock

[vdub12]

And another side affect, the sites your visiting will close down because they don't make any ad revenue.

Fighting the system in this case I don't think is worth the side affect. It will not be much longer before the idea of free content on line will no longer exist because of ad blocking software. Thats ok as long as you don't mind paying to visit every website.

Just think if every site you go to charges say .25 then if you surf allot you will be in the hole about $800 a month or so. I think I will just not block the ads.The problem is people like you are going to destroy it for everyone else.

I guess i should say thanks then. For helping to destroy the free internet.That makes you as bad as the RIAA.

Re:Adblock

[Reaperducer]

gratuiously give wildcard bans to entire domains that have something with "counter" or "ad" in name.

What do you have against Counterstrike and the Mod Squad?

Re:Adblock

[KiloByte]

http://ad.*/
http://*.ad.*/

It's not really going to hit anything legitimate...

Re:Adblock

[KiloByte]

You see, I haven't ever bought something because of an ad in my entire life. I also don't read any ads in newspapers, mute the TV during commercials (oh well, haven't watched the TV in more than a year...), get mightily annoyed at buildings being defaced with ads and so on.

I also live in a country with a banking system worse than Albania or Nigeria. I can't use my VISA card for Internet transactions for "security" reasons, and when I applied for a card without that limitation, I was denied even though I have an account in that bank for 7 years now, I'm employeed at the same place for 1.5y and I have 6 months income on the account there. Companies like PayPal stay as far away from Poland as possible. It leads to ridiculous situations like when to buy a DNS name the registrar mailed me the bill and I responded with a paper bank transfer.
Thus, with that many hoops, guess if I'm going to purchase anything from US companies. Yeah, sure.

So... they're wasting my time, and cannot earn a broken penny off me. Unless they are paying per ad displayed (and not clickthoughs or actual purchases), it's a pure waste of bandwidth.

From your tone, I guess that the ad revenue on your personal site has declined. I'm sorry, but you can still count on those people who actually buy advertised junk.

Re:Adblock

[Anonymous Coward]

i remeber someone having problems with thier ad blocker blocking an image on wikipedia which the hashing system had put in the folder a/ad/ (wikipedia bases folder names on the first two letters of the md5 of the filename)

Re:Adblock

[Minna Kirai]

And another side affect, the sites your visiting will close down because they don't make any ad revenue.

Good. Because then when all internet sites have closed down, we'll finally see some progress on an efficient micropayment-like system of direct compensation from readers.

The traditional advertising-support model for mass-media only made sense because we didn't have the computer networks in place to track payments for small quantities of electrically-transmitted content. The antiquated system of "Pepsi pays InnovateMedia to place banners on Slashdot luring a tiny fraction of the readers to buy from them instead of Coke" is excessively indirect, which creates false economies.

When viewers are directly paying authors, the free market will bring more optimal and accurate content for everyone.

Re:Adblock

[vdub12]

Ads make information free. The way it should be. Micro payments are a stupid idea that is only around to make rich people richer.

Re:Adblock

[Minna Kirai]

Ads make information free. The way it should be.

No, they don't. There is a cost to ads, otherwise it wouldn't be profitable for advertisers. If you didn't know that already, I probably can't help you though...

There is always a cost. Today, that cost is in manipulating (some) people to buy things against their better judgement. It would be better for everyone if that cost was in the form of a simple exchange of money.

Re:Adblock

[akadruid]

That only makes sense from an economic point of view. People don't think adverts = micropayents, they think advert = free, and will consume as a result.

Why will the content be better when people pay for it? people vote with their feet now not their wallets but they still vote.

besides i like the idea of pepsi not having my cc details and more just so I can read /.

Hardware is only part of the solution

[Chairboy]

You can have all the great hardware with network browsing connectivity you want, but if there isn't compelling/useful content, it's completely useless.

The real 'killer app' here is going to be in the realm of content. The best idea I've seen is from Neil Stephenson's 'The Diamond Age'. In there, a piece of software (with the needed hardware to display it) called 'A young lady's illustrated primer' laid the foundation for essentially creating effective, resourceful people with th tools needed to get things done.

If you hand a bunch of cheap web browsers on solar charged pads sprinkled across the 3rd world, what are people going to do, log into Craigslist, click on 'Serengeti' region and go from there?

The wikipedia is a great start at making a collection of open source repository of knowledge, the real killer app might be to create a framework for TEACHING the useful parts of that to any willing audience. Said framework might include the ability to translate from the source language, track progress, test on comprehension, etc.

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[crazyphilman]

I think a third world wiki would probably lean very heavily towards "how-to" subjects that would directly benefit people living in the various areas affected. For example, articles on how to use clay to bake bricks for use in building, articles on the use of adobe, articles on roof-building and plumbing methods, how to build water-delivery systems out of locally available materials... These are the subjects I would put in.

Everything from ancient Roman engineering concepts (the arch, the aqueduct, locating and exploiting water sources, etc) to modern home-building techniques could go in. Operational stuff, you know?

It would also serve as a "good-faith" thing; don't try to mess with their culture, respectfully avoid the subject entirely, just give them what they need to really improve their lives. That's what they want to know, you know; "How do I build a house whose roof doesn't leak in monsoon season?" "How do I build a better boat, with more capacity for fish and is easier to pilot?" Stuff like that.

I'd LOVE to see a resource like that made available. I think it'd help people a whole lot more than dropping bags of food from airplanes. :)

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[Reaperducer]

You're absolutely right -- it's all about content.
This is one of the areas that shortwave radio has addressed for years. The U.S. government beams regular programming into impoverished areas in their native languages teaching them how to improve crop yields, build safer sturdier homes from available materials, build new types of tools, and provide basic education to children.

Most /.ers have never heard of it because shortwave is so 20th Century, but it's an effective method for blanketing a region, even an entire continent, with useful content. Many developing regions don't have AM or FM stations -- they use shortwave because it goes farther on less power.

Many /.ers also haven't heard of it because the programs are transmitted in languages other than English.

Oh, and many /.ers haven't heard of it because we're supposed to go along with the dominant /. worldview that America is full of fat evil people who want to strip mine the Third World.

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[Deliveranc3]

I'm constantly surprised by the poor quality of learning tools on the internet. You'd think someone would have the funding to get these things right the first time. There are some good ones, like go. But for a complete guide to some of the most basic principles like Calculus, French, English, C, physics, these things should have the equivalent of amazing text books available online but they don't. Sad :(

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[Minna Kirai]

But for a complete guide to some of the most basic principles like Calculus, French, English, C, physics, these things should have the equivalent of amazing text books available online but they don't. Sad :(

At least for technical subjects like Calcus and Electrical Engineering, you can find whole textbooks for download online. It's neither hard nor legal.

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[chack]

Many developing regions don't have AM or FM stations -- they use shortwave because it goes farther on less power.

Actually "shortwave" uses Amplitude Modulation (AM) too.

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[kevinadi]

You hit it right on the head. I had the advantage of living in a third world country and thus experienced those things first hand.

Although I was born and raised in Indonesia, I was lucky enough to be educated in North America & Australia, the so-called "first world". I don't doubt that most people would call Indonesia the "third world" or whatever number of worlds.

Dropping bags of food actually does create more problem than solving them. It only applies to disaster areas in need of a quick relief and nothing else.

Due to the never ending foreign aids coming to Indonesia, not many people can withstand the onslaught of endless supply of money coming out from thin air. They started to become corrupt and emulate the first-world's consumption while they chose to ignore the fact that the country's economics are shrinking and thus unable to sustain the level of consumption. Their solution? Park their money in foreign banks and buy stuff from overseas. The result is disastrous as it drives the Indonesian currency down.

The mentality of work and ye shall receive is slowly being replaced by sit in a government post and ye shall receive. And this mentality trickles down to all levels, be it government or not.

I, for one, support the thinking that aids coming to Indonesia is actually complicating matters in the long run instead of solving them. On the macro scale, if you provide the knowledge for basic stuff without revealing the most cutting edge knowledge, it will kickstart a new round of capitalism. The "cutting edge knowledge" will be discovered naturally by Indonesians as the need arise.

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[Deliveranc3]

Yes but they aren't total walkthroughs that can be navigated easily. They usually aren't translated into more than one language. And they don't have software tools visual aids, auditory aids, feedback to check you are doing well.

All of the above would obviously be in well written instructional tools but they aren't available on the internet.

Supplements to classrooms exist, replacements no.

Re:Hardware is only part of the solution

[Reaperducer]

Yes, you are correct. But I dummed my post down for the friendly neighborhood Slashdotters who think AM is only 540-1710, and FM is 88.1-107.9 Anything else will just confuse them.

ICT?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly how will In Circuit Test (ICT) help the developing world?
Please #define your acronyms!

Back to your insightful comments.

Low Bandwidth

[Baricom]

Cool. Maybe we can finally squeeze a TCP/IP connection into Morse Code now.

Re:Low Bandwidth

[Monkeman]

0=no beep 1=beep

Re:Low Bandwidth

[KiloByte]

It's feasible (as Morse Code is a valid layer 1 network protocol), but would reduce the bandwidth. You can design something a lot more efficient for a 3-state communication channel...

Re:Low Bandwidth

[the_enigma_1983]

Ever heard of the TCP over Bongos project?

Re:Low Bandwidth

[Minna Kirai]

0=no beep 1=beep

Taking you seriously:
That won't work. You can't encode binary data directly onto a wire as on/off symbols, unless the sender and reciever are synchronized with clocks of unattainable accuracy. It provides no safe way to distinguish (for example) 1000000000010 from 10000000000010, because one long string of silence sounds about like another.

This is why Morse code uses 2 kinds of beep, with "no beep" used only to separate them, and not meaningful on its own. And why ethernet uses an nrz encoding, where 0 = "off on" and 1 = "on off".

So, to fix your suggestion, 0 = short beep, 1 = long beep, and all is well.

other use.

[leuk_he]

An other use would be to put this on the company proxy, and insteead of keeping all the explorers/firefoxes safe, just use this filtering technology to let only pass a basic internet. Users can still access all information, but a lot of spyware /viri attempts are filtered this way.

any proxy plugins that can do this?

Quick! Let's get some technology in there!

[Moofie]

Gosh, I'd think that reliable sanitation would be a good place to start. I also think that talking about a "killer app" is going to require some careful explaining when you talk to the people who are actually going to be using it.

But hey, I'm probably oversensitive or something.

Slashdot effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Loband: killer app, killed!

Uhh.. Links?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me, or does 'loband' seem to do the same thing as the Links or Lynx web browser (filter out images, etc.) only you have to go through loband.org to use it?

Is there some advantage to this over not using just Links that the dumbass part of my brain can't understand?

Re:Uhh.. Links?

[KiloByte]

Of course. The thing is, the users would be unhappy if they can't use some buggy GUI browser that can also get their spyware for them.

As someone said, "Those who don't understand Lynx are condemned to reinvent it, poorly".

Too bad, most websites these days are designed as if GUI browsers were the only thing. I found myself going from Links 90%, Firefox 10% to Links 10%, Firefox 90%, with Links being used mostly for querybts -w.

old news

[Anonymous Coward]

This technology has been around for a while (in the uk). I don't know if this the same people but a commercial service offers this for dial up users in the uk. The truth is it just snake oil for things like gifs and jpegs which are already compressed and is only of benefit for large text documents and for downloading applications.

And I could be wrong but isn't data often sent using zlib anyway from a lot of sites ? (you see it in the server's ID string) If you do a tcpdump ot tcpflow you often just see:

Your browser's request

Followed by strings of gibberish rather than etc

(and no I'm not talking about https or image files)

regards,

AC

apt-get install filterproxy

[delirium of disorder]

I've been useing this:
http://packages.debian.org/stable/web/filte rproxy

loband indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

slashdotted already

Very, very low bandwith!

[renoX]

I'm impressed by how little the server use bandwith as well: it returns 'error 500' ;-)

How efficient!

Re:Very, very low bandwith!

[FuturePastNow]

Yeah, they do good work. I can't imagine a site being compressed any further.

ELinks / Lynx

[miratrix]

Why don't they just have people use ELinks / Lynx? ELinks with frame and table support works with most websites out there and it's very, very useable. It also runs on minimal hardware.

With mod_gzip / Content-Encoding headers, absolutely everything's taken care of. So you move this into servers and it all of sudden becomes a killer app that's gonna kill everything else that's out there?

Re:ELinks / Lynx

[grumbel]

### Why don't they just have people use ELinks / Lynx?

Because thats client side, if you are really low on bandwidth you want to filter the junk out before you have downloaded it, not afterwards. Lynx of course already kills of the biggest junk by not downloading images, but there is still a whole bunch of useless information left in the html that you can filter out to reduce the size quite a bit.

Re:ELinks / Lynx

[thebagel]

elinks/lynx feel very bizarre to use when you're used to the mouse-based interface of most other browsers. In addition (and this MIGHT be something I've done wrong), some sites don't load properly; for instance, you can't get to ATi's drivers section in elinks/lynx.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Re:ELinks / Lynx

[Minna Kirai]

elinks/lynx feel very bizarre to use when you're used to the mouse-based interface of most other browsers.

lynx includes a mouse interface.

1. -use_mouse
   turn on mouse support, if available. Clicking the left mouse button on a link traverses it. Clicking the right mouse button pops back. Click on the top line to scroll up. Click on the bottom line to scroll down. The first few positions in the top and bottom line may invoke additional functions. Lynx must be compiled with ncurses or slang to support this feature. If ncurses is used, clicking the middle mouse button pops up a simple menu. Mouse clicks may only work reliably while Lynx is idle waiting for input.

Many people are unaware that terminal protocols include ways to propagate mouse clicks down to text-based applications.

Re:ELinks / Lynx

[a.bokovoy]

Indeed. To add, they attempt to present everything in Unicode (UTF-8 namely) but fail to convert properly from 8-bit encodings which are in great use in many countries. Look, for example, http://www.lenta.ru (in Russian), which is showed correctly as far as layout concerned but absolutely unreadable because loband treats its content at ISO8859-1 instead of proper Russian encoding when re-encoding that to UTF-8.

It's pity to see such a basic functionality unimplemented compared to what you already specified -- ELinks/Lynx.

proxy == censorship?

[nietsch]

So it is a proxy server that strips out/reduces the needless graphics and plugins, but keeps the content intact? (No I did not rtfa)

Wouldn't that be a very convenient point to slip some cencorship/big brother in the stream?

Most of these nations have a poor reputation wrt freedoms as such, so I would be very wary if it were gouvernment officials that are enthousiastic about the development.

--
(imagine a beowulf cluster of gouvernment officials, oh wait that _is_ the gouvernment already. scary)

Re:proxy == censorship?

[Monkeman]

What about a proxy that automatically corrects spelling! It would be brilliant!

Re:proxy == censorship?

[LiquidCoooled]

The code for loband is fully FOSS, and complies with the GPL.

If your worried, grab your own copy and run it from your own server.

link here

(I just posted this lower down, but this seems like a better place)

Re:proxy == censorship?

[shufler]

Just because the Open Source code is available doesn't mean the person implementing it isn't modifying the code to their specifications, be they good or evil. In fact, the ability to change the code is one of the reasons cited for using Open Source Software.

Re:proxy == censorship?

[say]

I don't think they plan to make it obligatory to use it. Besides, we have echelon to monitor everything anyway.

Re:proxy == censorship?

[nietsch]

So if you have to choose between putting up a server yourself, doing non-accelerated surfing, or using the gouvernment provided server.

Tough choice, really.

Isn't, um

[mcc]

Isn't this pretty much exactly what aol and similar "internet enhancer" software has been doing for years?

Other posters who were observing this kind of rewriting technique might be ideal for cell phones or pdas or whatnot are on to something, I think, but I don't expect this will really be at all popular among the "developing world" people they're intending it for.

Think about it: Which would you prefer, the webpages you see now but loading kind of slowly, or webpages that load a bit quicker but look like crap? The former sounds like a much better deal to me at least. Now, think: If people in the first world wouldn't put up with having the internet dumbed down to make webpages load quicker, why would people in the third world?

Anyway, it's too bad the service got slashdotted. It would be interesting to try this on webpages with poorly coded or noncompliant HTML and see if it cleans them up any.

Similar Service Already Available

[aking137]

OnSpeed have already been providing such a service in the UK and other countries for a while.

Re:Similar Service Already Available

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand that onspeed is not free and seems to make some unrealistic claims. Loband is free, open source and seems to do what it says on the tin.

Just my $0.02.

Alternative to the Opera proxy?

[zeth]

I had a chance to try it out before it was slashdotted, and if further developed, it can be an alternative to the Opera mobile proxy which delivers smaller pages for mobile phones to reduce gprs costs.

Lynx?

[rakerman]

Maybe someone should have just showed them Lynx before they went to all that trouble.

500 - Internal Server Error

[sydbarrett74]

Looks like loband's content has been compressed to the point of absurdity.

GPL loband software available from aidworld

[LiquidCoooled]

The loband application is available in full gpl compliant form from the parent organisations' website (I assume from loband directly as well, but its /.ed..)

Its written in java and sits on a high bandwidth server acting as a proxy for all narrowband clients.

Heres a link

Ignoring W3C

[Anonymous Coward]

... since all their standards are designed to degrade gracefully with both bandwith and user ability (think accessibility)

Fast loading sites

[gtoomey]

Since ioband.org is returning 500s, have a look at my notes on reducing bandwidth and getting sites to load fast

Actually, good government

[Colin Smith]

It's a misconception that the developing and third worlds are unable to grow their own food and feed themselves. They can, and they don't even need genetically modified crops to do it.

What they need is well run, stable governments. Take a look at Zimbabwe. Used to be fairly stable and able to feed itself. Not anymore, expect to see and hear of famine and death from that region in the near future.

It's a similar story throughout Africa. Corruption, poor government, poor planning all mean that any problems such as drought are massively exaggerated and kill millions.

Of course, import tariffs on food, created by developed countries in order to protect their domestic agriculture don't help even a little bit.

Re:Actually, good government

[gimpboy]

I agree with your sentiments about the need for good government and the elimination of corruption. There was an article in the World Policy Journal last summer which discussed the relative effects of tarrifs and subsidies on African nations. This is the text of ther article for those interested:

Africa and the Battle over Agricultural Protectionism
Todd Moss and Alicia Bannon*

In recent years, as African governments and development advocates have stepped up their campaign to reform the trade policies of rich countries, the issue of agricultural protectionism has come to the forefront. This is a highly divisive issue, with rich countries resisting poor countries' demands for major changes. In fact, the latest World Trade Organization (WTO) negotiations, the September 2003 Cancun meeting, failed largely because of the impasse over agriculture.

Critics highlight the hypocrisy of rich countries giving lip service to free trade while maintaining tariff barriers and paying subsidies to their farmers. Their argument that agricultural protectionism places an unfair burden on Africa is becoming a mainstream view. The New York Times, for example, argues that African farmers are "rightfully outraged that a nation [the United States] that enjoys all the benefits of open markets for its industrial products keeps putting up walls around its farmers."1 The World Bank, the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) have also come out strongly against current agricultural trade practices and advocate a major overhaul in order to benefit low-income countries.2

Several African countries have also become assertive on agricultural issues in international trade debates. South Africa played a lead role in the recent WTO negotiations, with Uganda, Botswana, and Kenya also becoming vocal players. Four West African countries--Burkina Faso, Mali, Chad, and Benin--have called on the United States to cut the $1-3 billion it spends each year subsidizing American cotton growers. More broadly, African politicians have used their bully pulpits to criticize unfair trade policies and their impact on Africa's long-term development. "The rich countries have a choice," says Ugandan president Yoweri Museveni, "either let Africa have real access to your markets for products, especially agriculture, or acknowledge that you prefer to keep us dependent on your handouts."3

Recently, development advocates and nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) have joined the campaign for reform of global agricultural markets. Oxfam and the World Council of Churches, among other organizations, are taking an active role in lobbying trade negotiators on this issue.4 In short, fairness in agricultural trade policy has become for this decade what debt relief was for the 1990s--central to the critique of U.S. and European policies toward the poor and a focal point for development advocacy.

The protectionist policies of rich countries are indeed a serious issue for Africa, where farming accounts for about 70 percent of total employment and is the main source of income for the vast majority of those living in or near poverty. The 30 member countries of the OECD spend a combined $235 billion per year to support their agricultural producers, but only about $60 billion on foreign aid (about one-fifth of which goes to Africa). Subsidies, tariffs, and nontariff barriers distort global prices and restrict access to rich-country markets. The global trading system discriminates against the world's poorest nations, making their products less competitive and undermining opportunities for growth, employment, and, ultimately, economic and social development. Additionally, intransigence on the part of rich countries over agricultural reform also indirectly harms poor countries due to its effects on broader trade negotiations. According to one estimate, unimpeded global trade would boost developing country income by

Re:Actually, good government

[johannesg]

Of course, import tariffs on food, created by developed countries in order to protect their domestic agriculture don't help even a little bit.

So we get rid of the import tariffs. The much cheaper african (and asian) farmers flood the market. Local farmers, who are struggling financially under the current system, give up and seek office jobs. The capacity to produce food drops dramatically in the west, and we become dependent for our most vital needs on countries that are unstable and unpredictable.

Now a drought strikes africa. Suddenly there is not enough food to go around for the west _and_ africa. Will they share with us? Will we go to war over it?

Would you support a government that destroys local food production?

Re:Actually, good government

[SA Stevens]

Of course, import tariffs on food, created by developed countries in order to protect their domestic agriculture don't help even a little bit.


But you see, it's possible that they will. Big agribusiness interests are the ones who are hurt most by import tarrifs. They want to keep certain third-world nations 'bananna republics' and in order to do this they must continue to grow banannas in them and haul the banannas to 'First World' countries as cash crops. The actual people in the third-world nations would be better off growing mixed crops for local consumption. So import tariffs that cut off the market for the agribusinesses might force them loosen their stranglehold.

Let's Ask Some 3rd-Worlders ....

[rewinn]

... what they think of all this ... what business problems do they have that computer & communications technology might address?

While I can think of a lot of potential problems, to which a no-graphics "Craigslist for the 3rd World" would be a useful response, wouldn't it make sense to ask the potential customers first?

Re:Let's Ask Some 3rd-Worlders ....

[grcumb]

"...wouldn't it make sense to ask the potential customers first?"

Son, with an attitude like that, you'll never get far in development. 8^)

I've been working in IT for about a year and a half now in a country designated by the UN as an LDC (Least Developed Country). A lot of people have challenged my assertion that the communications infrastructure is critical to development, pointing to the 34% literacy rate in this country, the abysmal state of health care and various other items as higher priorities.

But when I ask the locals what they think is more important, they always end up talking about communication. How hard it is to contact a doctor, how hard it is to find books to read, how hard it is to take their corrupt leaders to task.

This country has some of the highest telephone and Internet rates in the world. The staff of the NGO I work with share a single modem line (using the SME Server for dial-on-demand and proxying services). The cost for unlimited dial-up in the capital? USD 200 per month. This is higher than the monthly minimum wage. And most people don't earn as much as that.

Would cheaper, more efficient communications help make health care, education, business etc. better here? Ask a local and they'll give you a gentle you-must-be-new-here look and in the politest tones explain say, effectively, 'Damn straight! Without affordable communications, we can't do anything!'

So, on behalf of the people I work with: Thank you ever so much for showing a tad of common sense. It's so rare in the developing world that donors actually listen.

You are right

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you are right! It really makes surfing porn sites easier!

Google Mobile

[MrNonchalant]

Google Mobile already does this to an extent, though I don't know about the compression part. It seems to take ordinary sites and condense them down to just the text delivered in XHTML. Check out this page (the first result for "test") then check out the full version. I actually kind of liked the stripped down version better, it communicates what it has to communicate and doesn't get in the way.

Re:Google Mobile

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup! It's great.

Wish it were that easy

[briancnorton]

Sounds great, but images, special effects and whatnot are staples of the web. Filter them out and you are not only losing a large portion of your content(picture worth a thousand words) but annihilating your ability to use large chunks of the web as imagemaps, flash, etc are far overutilized cop-out web design elements. Besides, the developing world needs pr0n as much as the rest of us.

MIT $100 Laptop == Young woman's primer?

[rsborg]

Slightly offtopic, but... it seems to me that the MIT $100 Laptop is really a way of trying to prove or validate Stephenson's theory in Diamond Age... Namely the idea that knowledge embodies class/culturual values and if that knowledge can be transferred, it expands the in-group.

On of the key points glossed over in the novel is that computing hardware and bandwidth (which were part and parcel of the same thing... the primer.. in the book) are really seperate things in our world. Cheap hardware and access to inexpensive bandwidth would be absolutely critical to such a device.

Flashblock.

[antdude]

Don't forget Flashblock too. I still have to use Flash once in a while, but at least I can manually start the Flash components.

Re:Flashblock.

[cdcarter]

Flash block loads the file, just stops it from playing. No bandwidth saved.

Re:Flashblock.

[antdude]

It doesn't load the whole file though.

"web accelerator"

[selfabuse]

I couldn't RTFA because it's coughing up Internal Server Errors, but how is this different from the "web accelerators" that have been available for years? The one we currently use at my work is RabbIT - it reencodes images to a lower quality, saving bandwidth, and also gzips the pages. It makes browsing on a 56k seem signifigantly faster. Sure seems very similar to what this is doing, and certianly isn't anything revolutionary.

decent quick and dirty results, but wrong approach

[tota]

It is much better to use a scripting/page language that allows your server to generate a page adapted to each client's abilities: the interface can remain rich *and* optimised for various formats.

And you can achieve a lot simply by using thicker client side (script or other), re-usable style sheets, etc

Cingular's EDGE network already does this

[rufusdufus]

Cingular's wireless EDGE network recompresses all images. Quite a bit of savings depending on the web site. On my handheld I dont even notice the difference since the screen is small, although its pretty noticeable when hooked up to a bigger screen.

bittorrent consideration

[cow_licker]

Here's a proposal for a modified bittorrent client for low bandwidth considerations.

A lot of people are asking if they need this

[Paladin144]

I'm thinking that the 3rd world does need some neat technology like this, if only to keep up with the 1st world. Factory machines, hospital equipment and other major equipment is likely to run on a computer ("Please make sure you are running Windows 2000 or greater..."). Hell, we probably send them their statements ("You owe 23 billion dollars in interest to the World Bank. Please include some high class prostitutes with payment.") in an Excel file.

We need to give the 3rd world a chance to catch up by allowing them to leapfrog to decent equipment. That's why open source software is so important. It can really reduce the financial burden of the upgrade cycle. They're already trapped in the debt repayment cycle. Then, the gift of our time and effort will start working for us when they start making great software/hardware. I think it's in our own interests to make sure the 3rd world is as wealthy as we are, both financially & technologically.

happening already

[gad_zuki!]

>I wouldn't mind making that standard for cell phone and PDA browsing

Its not a standard, but proxies are old news. My Treo650 is on Sprint's proxy and the Blazer(the browser) requests compressed pages (gzip). Sprint's proxy compresses images too. It looks terrible if you use your treo as a wireless modem for your laptop, but looks good on the handheld.

The sidekick has a much more restrictive proxy system in which only certain elements are send to the client instead of the html of the page (text, basic tables, no css but supports colored text). It also compresses images like Sprint does, but I dont think it can handle animated gifs. Or at least it didnt when I still had one.

Netzero, AOL, Earthlink and others have this type of service for their dial-up users. They call it speed-up or somesuch.

There's also a lot you can do on the the client side. For instance, I run and ad blocking hosts file. Its just a blacklist of ad servers which get resolved to 127.0.0.1. Ta da, instant speed-boost and no more annoying ads. This kind of thing could easily be implemented on the server side too.

Also, Firefox has extentions that let you customize how plug-ins act. Like the "click here to run the flash embed" extension.

What I would like to see is some kind of bandwidth designator in the User Agent field. Something like narrow, low, medium, high, and very high. Then the site can generate the proper page, instead of the "click here for the html version of the site" half-fix.

Re:happening already

[Ed Avis]

If you have access to a Unix box somewhere on the net, set up an http proxy server on it and make an ssh tunnel from your machine to it with forwarding of port 3128 or 8080 or whatever the proxy runs on. Then do all your web browsing through that ssh tunnel. This is usually faster over a modem link because you don't have the latency of doing DNS lookups and opening new TCP connections locally.

If the proxy server at the other end is something like RabbIT that can compress images and web pages, so much the better. If you run WWWOFFLE locally to do agressive caching of pages (and allow offline browsing), better still. For added blazing speed use dillo as your web browser (though I must admit I mostly use Firefox nowadays).

Finally note that you don't need loband.org for Slashdot - just enable 'light mode' in your preferences.

At last.

[woah]

I can finally read stories from it.slashdot.org.

Take that Taco and CowboyNeal! Your reign is over. Did you think your eye-watering, brain-hemorrhaging colour schemes would stop us forever? I used to envy the colourblind, for they could roam the site without restraint. But that time has passed...

Slashdot, here I come!

I've seen this before...

[wiresquire]

It's called a "Proxy server which doesn't work properly".

"...sites they view could look much cleaner?"

[Anonymous Coward]

sure, removing the shit always makes things cleaner.

I'm amazed at the number of web sites that fail to include the most basic of information.
1)Date and time page was updated!(please update your header too!)
2)Means of reporting errors! (asp flumox #sux2000 line #666)
3)Alternate text for images. This is a big deal on a low bandwidth connection because one can leave images at the server, read the text, and only download those those of interest.
4)PLEASE PLEASE do not use fixed width pages!!!
If you must, PLEASE set the minimum at 320 PEL or 40 columns of text.
5)text only site map.
6)text only option for search results. Why the hell anyone would include 1gig images in search results is beyond me.
7)Aside from images a max of 8 color bits!
8)ALternative to FLASH version.
9)Plain text extraction of all PDF documents for which it makes sense and a plain text summary of the others.
10)Plain text version of spoken audio content!!!

Almost the same thing

[MTO_B.]

Till recently I used almost the same thing, provided by an ISP in Spain.
The way it worked was like this:
- The ISP sends you html pages compressed.
- The ISP sends you *.jpg files compressed to your own choice of compression ratio.
- The ISP sends you *.gif files compressed without animations.

The html pages, are sent compressed, you localy have a program that acts as a proxy or something like that, then it decompresses it. The program also lets you set image compression ratio and all that.

It even compresses pictures inside flash files!

The result?
Much quicker browsing with less browsing.
If at any time you want to see the original picture you can just quickly change settings.

You can view a presentation of it here:
http://www.wanadoo.es/acelerador/micrositio .html
(in Spanish)

Re:Almost the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Wanadoo offers this functionality by licensing software from Slipstream Data Corporation. You can find out the details at http://www.slipstream.com/

Re:Almost the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Most browsers have support for compressed HTML via gzip/deflate. Maybe it compresses better or something.

Re:Almost the same thing

[Minna Kirai]

The html pages, are sent compressed, you localy have a program that acts as a proxy or something like that, then it decompresses it.

Be advised that the operation of any such system is a criminal violation of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. Redistributing modified versions of copyrighted works without specific authorization is a serious offense.

Loband is not a client side filter

[RedLaggedTeut]

Loband is not a client side filter like Adblock, but more like a proxy/webapp(translation service).

For slashdot.org, the numbers are:
without Loband:
16214 bytes + like 20 images
using Loband(from intrac page):
12922 bytes (no images)

So slashdot isn't speeded up a lot.
I guess slashdot has high entrophy..;-)

Re:Loband is not a client side filter

[NaruVonWilkins]

Only if you don't pay attention to the size of the images.

Re:Loband is not a client side filter

[RedLaggedTeut]

Only if you don't pay attention to the size of the images.

Yes, but I did not consider these because browsers come with methods to switch off images. So from the view of the client, this is not a feature that only Loband can provide. Is a good thing for a http proxy server based on Loband though.

Re:Loband is not a client side filter

[NaruVonWilkins]

That's a good point. I was comparing defaults without thinking about full features...

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot looks like it should.

"Free" food floods their marketplace...

[WoTG]

More than making them dependent on "free" food, one of the biggest problems with sending food (or money that is earmarked specifically for food*) is that it distorts the market prices in those areas. In other words, the local farmers can not compete with "free" and they are forced to shut their farms and move on to other ways to make a living. Given the relatively underdeveloped economies, this is a real problem because there aren't that many other ways to earn a living. Over the long term, this hurts their economies greatly.

Note that disasters are a different situation entirely.

* it's a common practice in Canada, and probably most other developed countries, for national (government) level donations of cash to come with stipulations that the donation must be used to buy Canadian (or [insert donating country name here]) goods. It makes everyone feel good about helping other countries without "costing" quite as much.

Re:"Free" food floods their marketplace...

[say]

Your point is correct, and it is a general concern of aid. However, some situations aren't covered by this concern. When people starve, the market is distorted anyway (the demand is many, many times the supply, and theoretically this would make prices almost infinitely high. Ethical concerns and active goverments obviously stop that by giving food away or selling it under market price).

Giving food to starving people is not an (macro)economical problem. Obviously it is better to give a man fishing tools than giving him a fish, but only if there are any fish left. Dumping food in self-contained countries could, on the other hand, be a problem.

privoxy and squid speed up browsing extremely

[Anonymous Coward]

privoxy and squid in combination are speeding up browsing tremendously. i was just blown away how much of a difference it makes.

http://www.privoxy.org
http://www.squid-cache.o rg

Why not Lynx = wrong question

[eweaver]

Because, it's not about text-mode browsing. It's about low-bandwidth. Loband lets you see images if you have to (and recompresses them for you). The issue isn't having crappy hardware, it's having a flaky 12kbps satellite internet connection and having to use banking software full of javascript, imagemaps, and other accessibility-destroying oddities.

save time! see how the New York TImes looks!

[tkjtkj]

believe me, this is no favor to developing nations unless one believes that such countries ought not to see what the real world looks like. Favor? To me it looks like one technology guaranteed to limit net access! See http://www.nytimes.com/ or, if you dont like their reg process, see http://www.cnn.com/

Phone/PDA proxy already exists; with Opera

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.opera.com/products/mobile/accelerator/

Needs the Opera browser to work, it seems.

my loband page - pretty cool!

[rogerborn]

here is the link to my main website, as seen through loband.

since my page is text only, but with highly developed tables and color sets, you might not think of it as text only.

in fact, my page in loband looks so good, i might just abandon all the table colors.

http://www.loband.org/loband/page?_ab_url=http%3 A% 2F%2Fwriting.borngraphics.com&_ab_request=Go

here is the page as normally seen.

http://writing.borngraphics.com

the essential paradigm of my website is information, and all of that is in text, so hopefully anyone on the planet can access it. loband confirms this.

thank you for the heads up on this concept.

regards,
roger born
writer, teacher, general troublemaker.
"time flies like an arrow. fruit flies like a banana"

OK, I have to sleep

[nate nice]

Whew, I read through this first and was thinking the whole time this was for developers. (You know, developers! developers! developers!) I was just lost thinking why would this affect software developers more than anyone else? It was really bizarre and just did not make sense to me. Then I saw it was talking about developing countries. Ahhhhhhh. My 2 hours of sleep last night just is not cutting it right now.

nothing is free

[krokodil]

Such software have hidden cost on ISP hardware. Imagine how many serevers you need for soultion like
this to service say 10,000 simultaneous users. Plus extra staff to maintain it.

Basically it makes ISP to run more poverful servers and at the end they still pass the cost of it to the
subscribers.

Okay about the EDGE, but what about Apple?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh? What has this story got to do with Apple? I don't see any iPod/G5 references anywhere.

Tsk. tsk... moderators. Pay more attention and remember the three golden rules of (recent) Slashdot...

1) Stories must mention Apple
2) Stories must promote Apple
3) failing that, post some Roland P crap.

Simputer? What's that?

[ramdaskm]

The simputer is a overpriced piece of junk. http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/ 04/0058236&threshold=-1&tid=100&tid=218 Why is it still being talked about?

CSS thrown out

[filmotheklown]

We make extensive use of CSS to style our site so that we don't have to use images, is there a reason that loband is not rendering style sheets. While I get that images often add very little to a site relative to weight, CSS provides a lot of bang for the weight. I estimate that if loband rendered our CSS, our site would look 95% the same. The only images we use are for our logo. ???

Lean and mean!!

[bazmail]

WOW thats lean
http://homepage.eircom.net/~lsleroy/sslbnd.png

;)

Bandwidth is always a concern

[tom taylor]

Bandwidth is a major issue in most developing world sites. VSAT is common, split amongst many users, and so the less bandwidth each consumes, the better. This has potential to be very useful. Perhaps used automatically at the gateway machine, or optional as the homepage of the desktop/laptops in a telecentre.

Strange user agent string

[ewg]

Loband users are not easy to identify in web server access logs, at least by user agent string. Loband apparently echoes the original client browser's user agent string, with a request-specific (possibly random) floating-point number appended.

"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050414 0.8801681055082656"

I guess you can look for the (Perl 5) pattern \s0\.\d{16}$, but why not just identify yourself as loband?

Re:Strange user agent string

[Anonymous Coward]

Because loband isn't a user agent, it's a compression technique. It probably wouldn't affect javascript, css capability, and ecetera.

Perceivably for web browsing it's like having more bandwidth -- that doesn't mean you should change your user agent.

Doesn't seem like they should make anyone aware of it -- it's a transparent compression proxy. Modifying the user-agent even seems like them toeing the line, just incase it causes problems.

It could help the visually impaired

[pdcull]

It seems to me that this could make the web a whole lot more accessible to visually impaired, either through the use of text-to-voice gadgets or for making sites less graphical and conversely more readable for those with less than 20/20 vision.

Have you tried it?

[PhunkySchtuff]

I'm writing this, after browsing slashdot through loband.
It's a nice, clean look actually - nowhere near as much clutter as the standard slashdot.
It's a nice, sans-serif font (in black) on a white background and all links are in blue with an underline. There are no ads or other images, yet it keeps the layout pretty true to the original. Form submissions are a bit hit and miss - I could change, for instance, the threshold for viewing comments OK, however I had to return to regular slashdot to actually post this.
Plus, even though I'm on a 10 meg connection, this loband page loaded noticably faster than the regular page - less cruft to download, less HTTP connections to be made and broken, and a cleaner layout that's easier for my broswer to rend.

Wait a second..

[Deal-a-Neil]

.. or, actually, half a second. This looks like a modern day project of the bandwidth conservation society. Anyone remember that?

water and food

[Anonymous Coward]

clean water and food are the two killer apps we should be fighting for. What good is giving them computers if 10% of the total population is starving? However, I do think that IM is probably the best thing for the 3rd world countries - they have a much stronger familial structure and love talking with relatives as distant as 3rd and 4th cousins.

Good government, bad government - hunger is hunger

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a misconception that the developing and third worlds are unable to grow their own food and feed themselves. They can, and they don't even need genetically modified crops to do it.

Exactly! And instead of bringing them the wonders of the Internet, maybe it would be better to give them what they need - good government. Better quality surfing isn't going to help them put responsible government in place, particularly when the government controls the infrastructure and most of the population is either struggling to survive or could care less what the dictatorial junta du jour is.

However, if they are capable of growing their own food, but can't due to drought and government mismanagement (Zimbabwe being a perfect example of the latter), then they might as well not be capable of growing food. If you've got the world's lushest farming region, but nobody has the skills to farm or the infrastructure to transport the food, then you basically aren't able to grow your own food and feed yourself.

Killer app for the developing world?

[Bloodlent]

How about we concentrate on stuff like food, shelter, and keeping people from being slaughtered by guerillas or oppressive governments? Just a thought.

Re:Killer app for the developing world?

[Anonymous Coward]

For a slightly more informed view, consider:

http://www.uneca.org/

With a note on the importance placed on ICTs and similar infrastructure.

Nothing else has targeted this specific market....

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that loband doesn't seem to do anything revolutionary and there are lots of other solutions out there in their own markets doing a similar job.

However, its the first solution I've seen that has been designed as a public service for any end user in the developing world (or developed). No installing software, no changing proxy settings, no turning off images in browsers, no convincing your corrupt national ISPs to turn on server side compression on their machines.

You have to take into account the modes of computer use in the developing world are very different from those in the developed world. This seems to be a sensible fit - "Want to speed up looking at the internet? Just go to loband.org and put in the address you want to look at"

<utopian_vision>

Ultimately, with an aim to bridge the digital divide, software like loband should one day not have to exist: people will have better network connections and web sites will be better designed for such circumstances.

</utopian_vision>

The last thing the 3rd world need....

[MouseR]

...is a killer app.

Isn't part of this the goal of css?

[gozar]

Separate layout from content, so those devices that can't use the CSS can still display the content?

isn't this juse w3m? or lynx?

[krunk4ever]

I just tried loband and it resembles with w3m or lynx would display. It's true the text probably isn't getting compress, but text usually isn't the issue with low bandwidth, though text is highly compressible.

But looking at the source of the file I just downloaded. What it basically does is strip off the css and replace with its own. images will get a link to the actual image, which doesn't get compress anymore. I don't see any compression at all either.

Another problem I see with this is that what loband is doing seems to be able to be done on a client side app instead of a server side app. With the server side app, it seems to be a waste of bandwidth to and from loband.

Re:How about slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not bad, although I notice that the link above (ie AC or create an account) is misinterpreted.

This loband thingo is a very sensible move, for those of us who primarily use forums and so on.

So run your own at home...

[billstewart]

Ok, so you've got fast broadband and you're only trying to speed up your browser's interface. Sounds like a great job for an http/html cleanup proxy at 127.0.0.1 (or on some machine in your LAN if there's a better choice, but if you do that, make sure it isn't an easily-spammer-abused open proxy.)

You probably can't clean up everything, and there are some pages you're perfectly willing to put up with lots of graphics from, so you probably want to do more than just run a Lynx relative (:-), but you could do a good first cut. On the other hand, the Firefox ad-blocker proxies can work pretty well.

How does this compare to Lynx?

[Teancum]

After hearing about all of the "cool" stuff this is doing, I was wondering just what was the difference between this vs. web browsing via Lynx or some other low graphic-intensive application?

I don't do it lately, but back when 9600 baud modem connections were still considered state-of-the-art (or at least typical for a computer geek/college student trying to get some sort of net access), I routinely did web browsing via Lynx. I could even do reasonable access at 4800 baud... which would work even with pure analog telephone lines and switching equipment that could be commonly found in 3rd world countries (or rural America back in the 1980's... as was my case).

Essentially, this seems like more of a return to the old rather than something truly new and remarkable.

In short, what is the difference?

Re:How does this compare to Lynx?

[theAtomicFireball]

I don't do it lately, but back when 9600 baud modem connections were still considered state-of-the-art (or at least typical for a computer geek/college student trying to get some sort of net access), I routinely did web browsing via Lynx.

Okay, Gotta call you on this. When 9600 baud was considered state-of-the-art, there was no World Wide Web. I was a pretty early adopter of the whole networking thing (1st Internet account in 1988, 1st modem in 1983) and unless my memory is really bad, 9600 was really a blip.

In the eighties, 9600 bauds modems were truly 733t... and rare because they couldn't agree on a damn standard, so if you had a (IIRC) U.S. Robotics 9600 and your ISP or BBS used Hayes 9600, you were SOL. Before there was ever a clear winner in the 9600 baud protocol wars, 14,4k and then 28.8k rose up and got popular. By the time the web was invented, either 14.4k or 28.8k was the "standard", with (very unreliable) 56k modems being available, and by the time the web got any traction and started to attract non-geeks, 28.8k or 56k were the standard connections.

So, basically, WTF are you talking about? If you browsed using Lynx with a 9600 baud modem, you were using creaky, outdated hardware...

Re:How does this compare to Lynx?

[Teancum]

Well, yes the 9600 baud modem was outdated hardware.

I did have a 14,400 modem that I usually used at 9600 baud... sometime even 4800 baud if the phone lines were bad to do web surfing on though. And yes, this was in the very, very early days of the web when you could get a lot more information from Gopher.

9600 wasn't really as much of a blip as you think, however. This is pretty much the maximum baud rate that you can use to send over a telephone line using simple serial data transmission techniques that were common prior to 9600 baud modems (like 2400 or even 300 baud modems common in the 1970's) Anything that is of higher bandwidth requires sending multiple bits simultaneously with additional error correction techniques.

The point here is that using a program like Lynx is something that you can use browse at very low bandwidth, mainly because it doesn't do any sort of graphical rendering.

And the question I had was not arguing about the particular equipment anyway, it was how this software compared to Lynx, and pointing out that software like this has been around since practically the very beginnning of the web.

Third World Debt == US Govt Crony aid

[billstewart]

Foreign Aid has been described as taking money from poor people in rich countries and giving it to rich people in poor countries. Some appalling fraction of it is money given to US-friendly militaries to buy military hardware from US arms manufacturers (not to say that the European governments don't play the same games) to protect politically-well-connected trade like US oil companies, other US natural-resource-using companies, and US agribusinesses. Traditionally this was excused as "protecting the Third World from EEEEVILLLL Communists", but since the only remaining Commies are in our big trade partner China (or in Berkeley) we've had to substitute Moslem Terrorists as the new enemy.

who needs Cheap NEW computing devices..

[Anonymous Coward]

The slimed down websites are a great idea, there ARE still people out there without broadband. I've done service calls at some of their houses and man is it painful to browse most sites that way.

On another note if theres something we could give to third world countries, why not our old computers. I mean with all the environmental movements going on revolving around old computing equipment, they want to chage us to dispose of it now.. why not just ship it overseas for them to use instead of filling our landfills with it, or paying a company to recycle it...

one possibility

[Anonymous Coward]

So the question is a "killer app for developing world"? I'd say it's a toss up between "Populous" and maybe "Civilization". But I never played God games very much, so I could be wrong...

Softball...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Do high bandwidth consumers find the sites they view could look much cleaner?"

I'm thinking that the question begs a resounding 'yes'. I have a 1MB aDSL connection and lordy, sometimes I wish everyone developed sites with only Lynx in mind. My pet peeves are frames and flash. Bottom line for me is kinda like "less can be more, and simple is beautiful". There are always exceptions but please, no frames and no flash. OK, a _little_teensy_bit_ of flash once in awhile but absolutely no frames ever under penalty of death. Thank you.

squid plugin?

[drac0n1z]

anyone know where i can find a squid plugin to use this site to download content?
also i live in south-africa, and on a 5k/s dailup i use adblock and bannerfilter already but i block almost all the images down to *logo* *line* *arrow* *spacer* ect..
african government officials only care about themselves, even in our 'democratic' new south-africa. the ministers steal, it gets exposed, and the ANC will tell the investigaters to quit it, and that that will be the end of it.
developing countries will only develop with stable political and economic environments. ie, give the colonies back to britain, since all the african countries but south-africa went to waste since their independance..

Does the developing world need this?

[GiorgioG]

I think they have more immediate needs than being able to surf the web at an acceptable speed. The assumption that people in developing worlds even have access to the internet is a stretch.

Re:Good government, bad government - hunger is hun

[Gumshoe]

Exactly! And instead of bringing them the wonders of the Internet, maybe it would be better to give them what they need - good government.

Good government can only come from a well informed population. I can't think of a better way to keep informed than through effective use of the Internet.

Prior art...

[quarkscat]

that also takes care of all the pop-up ads: lynx!

The new web browser, just like the old web browser, that eliminates all that glitzy eye candy (and p0rn) that chews up unnecessary bandwidth. I, for one, welcome our new lynx-enabled webmaster overlords!

Re:Good government, bad government - hunger is hun

[Jesus_666]

As any cynic can tell you, certain First World countries are good examples for why good government can come from a well-informed population but doesn't necessarily have to.

Just because the children have access to information about the French Revolution/Voltaire/Guerilla warfare doesn't mean that within two decades a war-ridden country will become stable.
Of course it might help. It might also be turned into a rapid propaganda distribution mechanism. We won't find out if we don't try it and as I do think that it's always good to have (access to) knowledge I think that the $100 laptop and an Internet connection are things that will probably improve people's conditions in poor countries.


Of course, even well-informed starving people will follow everyone who promises them work and food, even if they'll have to subscribe to his weird ideology which mainly consists of "all are evil, kill them".

Irony

[laird]

I tried going to the site, and it's slashdotted. There's a nice irony in a company named Ioband not being able to deliever the I/O. Of course, they're being slashdotted by people who aren't using Ioband's technology...

How is this new?

[Anonymous Coward]

People have been doing very similar things with Squid proxies to remove pictures, adverts and banners for ages. How is this new?

OT? but...

[hummassa]

You are basically saying that the rich coutries are rich because they are loan sharks?

Killer App for Mobile Users

[Eminence]

Loband is a very good idea. One of the downsides of rising presence of fast net in developed nations (and amongst the elite of better off net users) is that web sites are being designed with less regard to load time and availability to all, including older browsers and equipment. Apart from users from underdeveloped nations, the ones that have hard time with this are mobile users.

And not only those who try to use web browsers on tiny screens of their phones or PDAs but also users of full-blown notebooks who happen to be in a place where GPRS or plain old phone is the only connection to the net available. While browsing over GPRS issues other than just speed of connection appear, such as paying for each byte (as opposed to time) or timeouts. I've heard many times GPRS users complaining about the design of some web pages which prevents them from using them while on the move - mostly because of overuse of graphics, Java scripts and infamous Flash animations. Loband could be a good solution, and in fact I'm going to spread the word about it in that sense.

If only it worked better not with rendering pages, but rather with connecting for example to services that use Squid farms as a means of load balancing their web servers.

Ioband is down!

[yodha]

The Ioband site is down! Guess we'll need an Ioband for the Ioband site :)

Why ridiculous?

[alienmole]

This isn't just a proof-of-concept, it was successfully beta-tested a few years ago - they even made a movie about it!

---
(Mod -5, Poor Taste)

Simputer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Must every other /. article be about the simputer? It flopped, it's over.