Slashdot Mirror
Cuba Switching to Linux
Tony Montana writes "According to several news sites the government of Cuba is dumping Windows in favour of Linux. Cuba's director of information technology, Roberto del Puerto, says that Cuba already has approximately 1500 computers running on Linux, and is working towards replacing Windows on all state owned computers."
how many people will make a comment about communism and linux....
this is 1
yeah 1500 computers !!, eat that AMIGA !!
I'm assuming that all Cuban installations of Windows are pirate copies anyway, because it's illegal for US companies to sell to Cuba (very stiff penalties).
is how the Bay of Penguins incident began...
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
In communist Cuba Linux switches you! Oh my ...
I think this snippet sums up a lot of the recent Linux "migration" stories:
Which is sad, since I've had a fairly painless transition to Linux a few years ago. Given the state of WINE these days, there's very little that a Linux-only box can't do that a Wintel box can.
That's great Cuba has such a positive image. This is bound to make people switch to linux in droves.
GETPKG - Package Management for Slackware
Can I get my Che Tux Revolution TShirt signed by Fidel?
Well, we all know that OpenSource is Communism :)
$> cd
$> more beer
I don't think that word means what you think it does.
Man, not only do the illegals have to deal with never speaking the language when they boat over, but now they will have the deal with not being able to use the computers that are here either.
Quid Pro Quo, nothing more, nothing less.
How are we ever going to spy on these countries if they stop using Windows?
All we need is another multi billion dollar company with a reason to lobby for invading Cuba...
Just because I can imagine doing a hippopotamus, doesn't mean I'd like to do it.
Middle America? Step away from the Tolkien, laddie.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
Who? Cuba? Cuba has about as many WMD as Iraq did.
How does the government having sole control over an industry make it any less of a monopoly?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
My thought exactly. And, if you RTFA (very short, all three of them) you'll find the following: "Del Puerto said his office was working on a legal framework that would allow the replacement of the Windows system". I wonder which legal framework is that? In a country that has the dictator with the longest time in office in the whole world, how much of a "legal framework" is needed, anyhow?
(BTW, congrats to you, twelfth comment and the first non-stupid, non-redundant one).
I submitted it here as a YRO story, but it was deemed less relevant to Your Rights Online than Darl McBride's new open letter in response to Groklaw's new open letter to Darl McBride.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I remember sitting in an internet cafe at a resort in Cuba, wondering why they didn't use linux. Now maybe they will. My personal anecdote aside, I look forward to the day when it will hurt the US not to deal with Cuba; given its current popularity among European and Canadian travellers, I think it is coming. Cuba is still stable, and, indeed, has outlasted the Soviet Union.
But that is the "great" thing about the GPL and similar OSS licenses. Its free to anyone dispite ideological differences. If it wasn't, a F/OSS advocating developer could bar me from using their software because I also use non-Free software. A staunch pro-life developer of a scheduling package could bar an abotion clinic from using their software. If something is going to be free, it needs to be free, not "kinda-free, only when you agree with us"
Free MacMini
((invasion-happy US Govn't) * (API-hiding OS vendor)) ** (US Govn't allows OS Vendor to violate it own laws) = (run forest run)
It's up to Cuban copyright law to decide whether you should have to pay Microsoft to use copies of their software.
This has got me thinkning. If Cuba is switching to Linux, there is a greater possibility that North Korea uses or will switch to Linux too. This is actually good because imagine at some super secret North Korea nuclear missile silo, some Windows box displays: "A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01)+00010E36. The current application, 'missiles standby', will be terminated." So actually, there IS a reason they call it the blue screen of DEATH.
Another reason is that putting any political agendas in software licenses is not leagally right (You can put them there of cource, but they have no effect)
Dyslexics have more fnu.
Even if they can, Cuba has loved linux for a while - obviously, even if they can they don't want to depend from USA technology. Infomed, for one (the national healtcare information sharing or whatever you english people call it) is based in linux at least
AFAIK I am not allowed to export goods from the USA if I know they will end up in Cuba. So what loophole does Mr. Softie exploit?
Microsoft obviously also has distributors outside the United States, and it's perfectly legal for them to sell to Cuba.
Or even Microsoft Canada. We don't buy into the isolationist argument up here, and we don't get our knickers bent out of shape trying to "prove" that communism doesn't work but undermining Cuba at every opportunity.
While the "linux = commies" jokes are in abundance, ironically, Linux might not be so welcome as soon as the Cuban government sees that Linux promotes the free exchange of ideas. Wouldn't it be ironic if the socialism-in-a-kernel that is Linux ended up hurting the grip of a communist government?
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
What worries me is importing what is made in cuba into the US.
What happens when cuban sysadmins start submitting patches into linux? is this not then code that is a product of cuba? that would be Illegal to bring into the USA.
which then comes into a linux used in the USA?
This worries me, as then microsoft could use this as a legal loophole to prohibit the use of Linux in the USA.
That would be a big boon for them as then they would have no competition.
Think about it. How ridiculous does it sound. Or not?
Intellectual property doubly so.
Australia
South Korea
Brazil
Spain
India
Vienna
French Police
Dutch
Venezuela
Germany
Unfortunately, that's bollocks. If Cuban law states that "you need not ask permission or pay anything before using software written by someone else" then it is no longer up to Microsoft. Not in Cuba anyway.
Remember, rights are not universal; they're granted at the discretion of the country in question, however much we might wish it otherwise.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
You could add the US to the top of that list, pal.
What's worse: a country openly proclaiming communism, or one that espouses freedom -- all the while attempting to deny it's own citizens the right to freely travel and increasing surveillance in the name of "fighting terror". Oh, and not to mention all of the "detainees" held in Gitmo. These folks, while probably a bad lot, are being held without being charged with a crime, denied access to legal representation, and in some cases have had thier HUMAN RIGHTS violated. This is the kind of shit that I used to bring up about Cuba and China.
God save the US. God Damn the current US regime.
I've been to Cuba, and I loved going to Cuba. The people were wonderful - friendly, charming, and Cuban women surely give interested tourists the best welcome one would ever want :-).
But all I heard from citizens was gripes about the government. The "free" healthcare is worth about as much as you'd expect a dictator's promises to be worth. The capitalist things, like the taxi system, work gloriously. The hotels, being right under the government's thumb, are a model for poor service and bizarre rules. For instance, you can't take your Cuban girlfriend up to your hotel room without paying a bribe.
I read a lot of books on Cuba before I went, and it seems like people who go to Cuba with an ideological agenda are shuttled carefully to the right places, where things look shiny and new. This is a potemkin village that impresses the heck out of people who want to be impressed.
But if you go a few blocks away, you see scenes like I did. All these pictures were taken on what would be prime real estate in any other country, a block or less from the Malecon, the giant seawall that faces the ocean and is a major gathering spot for Cubans.
Cubans live in their decrepit and dangerous housing until it collapses, because if they maintained it the government would take it over and give it to someone else. No joke, sadly.
To put this slightly on topic, Cubans are generally not allowed to use the Internet, at least not at prices Cubans can afford. The Internet connections in the tourist hotels are closed to Cubans; only non-Cubans can use them. This is part of an effort to keep tourists on the busses and away from contact with the Cuban people.
The Cuban computers I saw were woefully out of date, with truly ancient versions of Windows on display. If my memory serves it was mainly Windows98, and I went in December 2002. So I doubt that this mandate from Castro will have that much effect. It's probably a propaganda effort to make Slashdotters look at his rule more favourably.
Even open source tyranny is still tyranny.
Alas.
D
One pictures Castro saying over and over, "No, that's 'free' as in 'beer'..."
I wish I had some mod points for you. If you ever read a real estate appraisal, they implicitly acknowledge that you don't really "own" property. Rather, you own certain "rights" to property, ie fee simple, leasehold, tenant-in-common, etc.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
%windowscd%\win98\precopy2.cab\license.txt ...
7. EXPORT RESTRICTIONS. If this EULA is not labeled and the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is not identified as "North America Only Version" above, on the Product Identification Card, or on the SOFTWARE PRODUCT packaging or other written materials, then the following terms apply: You agree that you will not export or re-export the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to any country, person, or entity subject to U.S. export restrictions. You specifically agree not to export or re-export the SOFTWARE PRODUCT: (i) to any country to which the U.S. has embargoed or restricted the export of goods or services, which as of March 1999 include, but are not necessarily limited to Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria, or to any national of any such country, wherever located, who intends to transmit or transport the SOFTWARE PRODUCT back to such country; (ii) to any person or entity who you know or have reason to know will utilize the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or portion thereof in the design, development or production of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons; or (iii) to any person or entity who has been prohibited from participating in U.S. export transactions by any federal agency of the U.S. government. You warrant and represent that neither the BXA (as defined below) nor any other U.S. federal agency has suspended, revoked or denied your export privileges.
The latest Slashdot meme.
Microsoft is an American corporation, it isn't legally allowed to profit from or provide goods or services that are shipped to Cuba. If I am understanding the US Trade Embargo correctly...
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
That's only US law, not something with real teeth like the MS EULA.
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
I think you forget that the software is Microsoft's property. It's up to Microsoft to determine the terms under which it's willing to allow the use of its software in Cuba. Cuba has no right to declare that it can use the software without compensation.
If Cuba isn't a signatory to the international copyright convention, then Cuba has every right to do whatever it wants with Microsoft products.
However, it seems it is a member of the WIPO, so I suspect it is legally bound to recognize Microsoft's copyright.
Not that we could import windows due to the trade sanctions anyway ;)
Maybe not, but I've seen Windows blue-screening at a Cuban airport! I don't know where they would purchase it from (or even if they would purchase it), but there were many products I'd view as US products available in Cuba - for dollars ;-)
This is where the serious fun begins.
how many people will make a comment about communism and linux
Communism makes some people see red (:-), so leave it out.
More relevant here is that Linux and open source in general is about cooperation and collaboration without an enemy, whereas sociopolitical systems usually have an enemy within and always have an enemy without. Our collaborative community has no real similarity to any of that, despite the political FUD occasionally dished out by the vested interests that we're treading on.
So yeah, we'll get some negative political mud thrown at us, but who cares. It's just the death throes of the old cathedral dinosaurs on their way out.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Summary: you can be arrested and detained for up to four years because the police think you appear dangerous and might commit a crime. Police are using this power to imprison people who are not criminals by any stretch of the imagination - it's a purely repressive tactic, used to intimidate and control.
If anything, the American media is too soft on Cuba, often forgetting (as apparently you have) that it is one of the last holdouts of an unacceptably repressive style of government that much of the 20th century was spent abolishing. Unless you actually live there, you do the Cuban people a disservice by trying to diminish the seriousness of these problems.
I remember our local left-of-center rag going on about American profligate use of energy, pointing to color TVs as offenders, how black and white TVs use much less energy and are preferred in . . . Cuba. Never mind that modern solid-state color TVs use about as much electricity as an average light bulb and that Cuba's energy conservation kick may have more to do with their economics rather than Uncle Fidel being friends with Amory Lovins.
I would put the love of Linux in the same category. Sure, it is great that someone economizes by not paying a tithe to Microsoft, but bragging about Cuba switching to Linux is kind of like saying, "Linux, the choice of a third-world failing Communist dictatorship with an aging nutcase leader."
Oh, and about the response that Cuba is the victim of the U.S. trade embargo -- I believe just about everyone else in the world trades with Cuba and visits Cuba.
Thanks to Google (who will only be around for a brief while to help us with this stuff...):
Third-world countries...
This are one more of the migrations than they will occur on the part of the third-world Latinoamericános countries (desire not to be contemptuous, since I am of Mexico).
This migration of Windows towards Linux in these countries (on the part of the GOVERNMENT) will occur for several reasons, first, because the countries will wish to spend less// in software, or símplemente to obtain _ more value by its money _ (as for me I believe that that is Linux, since although the TCO is equal or superior, long term Linux offers better valos than any propietary platform).
On the other hand, the governments also will wish to separate of Windows since is a fastening towards the American government (you do not have that Word do you), although Microsoft is directly not bound to the government, indiréctamente having licenses of software of this company promuebe the economic dependency of the country towards the United States.
Finally, the governments will begin to use Free Software within their systems by the nature of the same one, that is to say, the capital inverted in Free Software is a capital that goes (or can go diréctamente) towards the people who develop software and also the generated technologies disposition of ALL the citizens has left directly. Thus, a government can contribute bottoms for the development of some product that consider necessary (simpelemente to way of/bounty/) and see obtain the necessary programs.
This last one is plus a reason that I have thought. As citizen I would prefer that my taxes were used to subsidize Free Software instead of subsidizing to a Estadounidense company. And it is precise to indicate that between the Latin American citizens there is a resentment towards the government North American at issue economic (good... and in other questions who do not come to the subject).
As for me, it seems to me excellent that Cuba is optador by Linux, although like other people have written, in Cuba was not possible "To buy" Windows, but I am sure that the use of Linux in Cuba will generate a strong aid to the development of the same software, since Cuba has people and minds very, very able.
In addition, I must express that I would like much that my country (Mexico) followed the same route, although desafortunádamente Miguel de Icaza did not know to raise the situation (E-Mexico) arguing for the Costs like the advantage of Linux on the propietary software.
That is everything, I hope that it does not bother my commentary to them in Spanish, but, I considered pertienente.
For instance, you can't take your Cuban girlfriend up to your hotel room without paying a bribe.
Cuban girlfriends - yeah, that's another area where capitalism works nicely
The free as in speach surely doesn't appeal to Fidelito.
I look forward to the day when people stop letting themselves be consumed with hatred.
It does. Now if we could just get people to understand that the word "communism" doesn't mean what they think it means.
You should probably do some research before posting:
Very high literacy rates and low infant mortality at USA level, among other tidbits : Population, Health and Human Well-being : COUNTRY PROFILE - Cuba
I agree. Assuming Cuba is paying for Windows (possibly from Microsoft Canada?) out of necessity, it's better to support a company that isn't based in the U.S. -- for philisophical reasons.
However, that leads to the next big question -- which distro will Cuba use... or will they roll their own?
There are a few Spanish-language distros available to choose from that aren't owned by large American companies.
If they do choose to role their own, what copyright law exists to make sure that they don't fork it off and close the source themselves? If for economic reasons, they're only interested in free beer, this is a risk.
--- Dan
Two points:
First, there's an issue of degree. There are far more ordinary people in Cuban prisons, who would not be imprisoned in any free country. This imprisonment doesn't require national-level exceptions to normal rules of due process, it's a routine thing. That's not the case with Jose Padilla.
Second, I wasn't defending the US, I was pointing out that Cuba is still a very repressive place, and those who want to pretend that everything's cool and its problems should just be accepted with a wink are themselves collaborating in the repression of the Cuban people.
Actually the embargo has nothing to do if a profit is made or not. An US citizen with a permit to travel to Cuba (and that's very, very rare) can bring back Cuban goods up to a value of 100.00 USD. Others are not permitted to import anything Cuban into the US.
There where rumours that non-USians are permitted to bring 50 Cuban cigars for personal consumption. Unfortunately this is bollocks.
If you do find Cuban cigars in the US the only advise I can give you is to stay clear. It's not so much the legal side, but your chances are in the 90-95% range that you just bought a fake Cohiba for 40 bucks. This applies also for Mexico, the entire Caribean and virtually any cruise ship originating from the US. The only exception are La Casa Del Habano franchises. It's incredible profitable business and your customers usually don't shoot you when they are not happy with the merchandise.
This is also the reason why a lot of US cigar smokers think that Cuban cigars are nothing special. They smoke the odd "Cuban" cigar (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), which in all likeliness was manufactured in Mexico. They are very easy marks, since they don't have a point of reference.
To cut to the cheese: No, you cannot import anything from Cuba except the 100$ limit if you where traveling on a permit.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
Its funny listening to Americans comment on a country that the vast majority have never been to. Not to mention countries that they are not free to visit should they want to.
Not being American, and therefor being FREE to go where I please, I can tell you that a rum and COKE is not hard to come by. Funny, I thought Coke was an American company?
Looks like the US has a much larger problem with Coke smuggling than they thought.
Haven't any of you sheeple figured it out yet, it is only illegal if you are not a giant corporation. If you have 30 employees and you trade with Cuba, look out, those Southern redneck senators will hunt you down like dogs. If you employ 30,000 employees, and pay of the douchbags on the hill, you can do as you please.
The US policies against Cuba are bad for Cuba, but great for the rest of the world. It has left a Carribean island with great weather, great beaches, great cigars, affordable accomodations and best of all, NO Americans. It's like vacation heaven. Besides, none of you would like it there. Really.
If the copies are illegal and thus MS is not profiting off of them. Nobody in Cuba should be able to run Windows Update.
If the copies are legal, then MS Windows Update should check for and disallow any Windows running PCs from Cuba to access and run updates.
I am just saying...
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
First, there's an issue of degree. There are far more ordinary people in Cuban prisons, who would not be imprisoned in any free country.
Perhaps. They jail political dissidents. We jail pot smokers. Thus, the US has the highest imprisonment rate in the world. (Or very close- we don't know North Korea's) Cuba's not even in the top ten.
Second, I wasn't defending the US, I was pointing out that Cuba is still a very repressive place, and those who want to pretend that everything's cool and its problems should just be accepted with a wink are themselves collaborating in the repression of the Cuban people.
I'd be one of the last to defend Cuba- it's a wreck of a country due to a meglomanical dictator. The world will be a better place when Castro is worm food.
But other countries simply don't see Cuba with anywhere near the level of hatred in the US. They see us pointing fingers at Cuba's repressive practices while we're busy keeping people in legal limbo forever in our own tiny slice of Cuba.
If we had cleaner hands other countries might be more willing to listen to us about Cuba.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
North Korea does also.
Don't forget China, they also have a parliament and a constitution.
What about Iraq under Saddam? Yep, parliament and constitution.
What about Eastern Germany? Yep, parliament and constitution.
And the list goes on and on and on...
Your point was?
Seriously, having a parliament and a constitution doesn't mean anything unless there is democracy and rule of law.
I'm really wondering what intelligent people modded parent up...
President who cannot be voted out of office == dictator
America is pretty much the only country not trading with Cuba directly. In spite of that, millions in US currency flow into Cuba every month through indirect routes, including the sizable Cuban population who fled to the US for love of freedom. Overall, Cuba has a national GDP of $33.92 billion, which gives them a far better per-capita than most other countries with similar poverty levels.
The reality simply is that Cuba is run by a corrupt and incompetant military dictator whose only prior qualification was being a spoiled rich kid and lawyer. The complete mismanagement of the economy by his everlasting regime led to scarcity, and the spoils system inherent in any communist regime has led to a disparity whereby most Cubans live in abject poverty, but the priveledged few live in opulant comfort.
Cuba is not even a good example of how a communist ought to be run, but it is an excellent example of how communist governments eventually are run.
Internet users (per 10,000 people) 106.8 (2002 est) Personal computer users (per 100 people) 3.2 (2002 est)Cuba
Human rights abuses aside - and ok that's quite an omission - Cuba does remarkably well for itself. Take a look the UN's 2004 Human Development Report Cuba Fact Sheet. If you put this in the context of the US's trade embargo, it's quite impressive.
To those posters who've been to Cuba, and been shocked by the poverty they've seen, here's the full Human Development Index - maybe your next vacation should be to one of the 125 countries lower down the list.
Big G should have shut up when he was saying that Linux is made by communists... They are loosing business because of that now.
Cheers,
RoadkillBunny
you know i've been to cuba many times now. walked around everywhere. spoke to alot of people. truth is the majority of people love thier country. the majority of people support castro and building socialism. not everyone does of course and that is potrayed here in the US as everbody. I won't go into particulars. Cuba is a poor country. They have old hardware.the overwhelming majority of cubans cannot afford home computers. So what the government currently has and is now putting more money into because of recent better financial times are community computer clubs. this is where people go use a computer, use the internet etc. when i visited these clubs they were all using linux. these were two different clubs in havana i saw. this is part of a broader campaign by the government now that they have some more finanacial stabilty. the money doesn't go into some rich buggers coffers but into social programs like these. including the university for all, which are educational courses taught over T.V.. they print newspaper like textbooks on classes like english,literay critisim etc.. things that don't have some direct economic effect but just raises the cultural level of the country. i can see using linux as an advantage for all the reasons we do here and other third world countries do, including running on older hardware and being free as beer.yes,ideologically it is about one more thing being attached to the US and capitalism in general. that's no secret.
FYI, I'm not an American, and the page about Cuban human rights abuses which I linked to is a European/international human rights group. So I don't think your generalization about other countries is particularly relevant. It's true that many Europeans seem particularly insensitive to issues of political repression, but that's perhaps why they keep getting into trouble along those lines.
I have lived for a number of years in America, though, and my experience is that ordinary citizens there aren't afraid of their government(s) in the same way that they are in Cuba. Any comparison in terms of repressiveness between the two countries is largely silly, even despite the current overreaction to terrorism. There's a spectrum of human rights issues, and no country on Earth is perfect, and particularly no English-speaking country (if there was one, I would live there). Smooshing the spectrum to make all violations equal to each other is only useful as an extremist rhetorical tactic.
I don't buy the pot smoker comparison, either: show me the pot smoker (not dealer) who is in jail for one to four years for mere possession of single-person quantities. At least such a person committed a crime, though, even if it shouldn't be a crime: they get due process under the law, unlike Cubans imprisoned for pre-crimes. You can't have due process when you don't know what actions might trigger your arrest and imprisonment.
Regarding US imprisonment rates, that seems to be largely a racial thing. Amazing how long the legacy of slavery has lasted. So yes, it can suck to be black in America. In Cuba, it sucks to be Cuban.
I completely agree. I am one of those lucky amaericans who HAVE been to Cuba (in 2001). While there I kept thinking to myself
"This is a beautiful country with very nice people...I dread the day that americans invade and ruin a perfectly good thing."
For every nice american travelling, there are at least 3 that act like asses and are ignorant of the culture they are visiting.
If you want to know more about what life is really like in Cuba, check out this web page and read about human rights violations:
http://therealcuba.com/
This is also a particularly good time to keep an eye on news coming out of Cuba because tomorrow a large group of dissidents in the island are preparing to meet despite goverment opposition in what they are calling the Assembly to Promote Civil Society.
Others here have mentioned how people are not allowed Internet access. But it doesn't stop there. Books are censored too. People who try to operate private libraries from their homes are often arrested and have had their books confiscated and destroyed.
The stories go on and on. I could tell you about my relatives who were arrested for buying or selling things like meat or car tires. Or my own father who jumped from a moving train to escape his military captors because they were going to make him face a firing squad for handing out anti-Castro propaganda. It amazes me how little of this is known or covered in the news.
As a canadian, you are full of sh!t...ROYALLY!
First off, I find it amusing that you wrote the word "sh!t" with an explanation point, as if to try to be polite, yet wrote "FUCKING" in capital letters only 7 words later... but I digress.
OH WAIT! I forgot, you watch our state-run(commie) TV,CBC...so naturally everything is the badbad amerikkans fault, right?
Almost every nation in the world, democratic or otherwise, has a federally opeated broadcaster (The United States being the notable exception; though the United States is also violently capitalist in nature, so that explains that). This isn't communist at all. Either way, I'm doubting your Canadianism; things aren't "state-run" in Canada, they're "crown controlled".
Semantics aside, the word your feeble mind is probably grasping at is "socialist". Of course, "socialism" and "communism" aren't synonyms, despite how many conservative fear-mungerers on Fox News have tried convince you otherwise.
Of course, you may just be parroting the old conservative half-truth that the media is "liberal", in which case you'd be a sheep who isn't really sure what the word "liberal" means, either.
At any rate, the last time I saw the CBC indite the Americans for something morally questionable was .... oh wait.... never. So regardless of what you think about the CBC you don't really have a point at all, do you?
bash-3.00$ uname -a
SunOS panda 5.10 Generic sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-2
I know you're a troll, but I'll bite.
Cuba had the lowest malnutrition rate in Latin America from 1979-1992, before the US intensified sanctions. Its estimated number of malnourished as of the report date (2000) was 1.8 million, i.e. ~5%. This is almost completely due to the increased embargo; not being able to buy from the US (its nearest potential supplier) increases costs by about 30%; caloric intake during the time dropped 38%. Even still, for comparison, about 30 million Mexicans (~%28) are malnourished. Who is crying them a river?
As for your "ex-cuban" relatives, you are staring in the face the classic example of "selection bias". If they weren't anti-castro/anti-communist, they wouldn't have fled to the US, now would they?
Freeze Ray. Tell your friends.
How is a third world dictatorship, where you can't surf the internet without explicit permission from the government, switching to Linux supposed to bring good attention to Linux? Shouldn't this be something that Linux advocates try to downplay?
Next Up: The government of Sudan has endorced Linux - "We wouldn't be able to carry out our genocide of non-muslims without it! We have 3,000,000 corpses to attest to the efficiency of open source software!".
Also in News: The president of NAMBLA announces the growth of Linux use amoung child pornographers. "Windows just isn't secure enough to download kiddie porn without worrying about some police force exploiting a Windows flaw to catch us. Linux is the only OS for hardcore child-porn fanatics!"
Yeah, great... Just when Linux and Open Source software is starting to get good publicity from the press, Linux "Advocates" are now trying to link Linux to totalitarian regimes. With friends like these, who needs enemies!
It seems like NetBSD would have been a better choice to install on the hardware available in Cuba. Hopefully they will comply with the GPL and release the changes necessary to make these ports.
(Laugh. It's funny.)
Would you say that our "ownership" is simply a privilege granted to us by the state?
You got that exactly right.
In any country in the world, the government has the "right" to take your property, and pay you a price that they determine (which is sometimes zero).
In some countries, the government is up front about this, making it clear in property documents that you are merely granted use of the property until such time as the government wants it.
In others (such as the US), there's a pretense of private ownership. But when the government wants your property, they simply take it by "eminent domain" (google for it), and it's no longer yours. You have no recourse, unless you have the funds to bribe the right people.
You can talk all you like about property being yours. But it's just a nice social myth, belied by the actions of your own government.
A few years ago, there was a notorious case in Detroit. The city grabbed a big chunk of land by eminent domain, kicked out the people, tore down the houses - and sold it to an auto manufacturer for a price below market rates. This taught a lot of Americans just what "private property" really means to them. Some of us still remember it.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Check with Ry Cooder (musician/producer). He produced a documentary and soundtrack (and perhaps some followups) of Cuban musicians (Buena Vista Social Club), in Cuba. I think one may have gotten an Oscar or Grammy.
What would be the diffence between music/film that was partially developed in Cuba and code that was?
He probably did it under a US government permitted cultural exchange program. Code exported to the US might be viewed differently.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
The great counter-example: Microsoft and their infamous Word EULA, stating that the software may not be used to write anything critical of Microsoft. Once you start down the road of "you can't use my software unless you think exactly like me," where does it stop?
<Yoda Voice>
Dark Side that way lies!
</Yoda Voice>
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
I think the 46 years of blockade, economic warfare, and *military attacks* put paid to that debt a while ago, myself.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
You can have that money right after you give the Native American's their land back.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
I don't know about the GP, but I personally can see how ownership is an artificial construct. Why does this land belong to me, other than the fact that it is currently in my possession and I have a piece of paper that says so?
Ownership is a legalism that has no meaning without the appropriate laws. It's not really a privilege so much as the government created the institution of ownership in the forging of the social contract that makes the government legitimate.
Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Well I'm glad you conceited snobs enjoy the embargo while the people of Cuba suffer because of it. The embargo severely cripples the Cuban economy, but hey, let's keep those people in poverty just so a few snobs like yourself can vacation on the Island free of American influences.
Perhaps you're not aware that not only can the USA not trade with Cuba under the embargo, but any international vessel that trades with Cuba cannot trade with the USA on that same trip. So if you are trading anything, you will aim most of your travels to the USA, because the Cuban imports/exports will not add anythign appreciable.
You may love keeping the embargo intact so you can take small vacations there like the conceited snob you are, but Cubans have alot of difficulty buying everyday necessities such as medicines, light bulbs, automobile parts, etc because of it.
You may love great beaches and cigars, which explains your reasons for going. When I (a US citizen) went we brought tens of thousands of dollars worth of medicines that US hospitals were disposing because they were just past their expiration date (but still good for all intents and purposes). The hospitals we visited were extremely gracious for this, medicines are really in short supply there because of the embargo.
You may like not dealing with Americans travelling in your little vacation paradise, but most cities are poorly lit, with only every 3 or 4 streetlights on. I thought at first this was to save electricity, but it's because they have a very short supply of light bulbs they can get through the embargo.
You may love the antique cars still driving around (with ridiculous amounts of air pollution), but Cubans have tough times getting automobile parts through the embargo. That's why they still have many old cars from before the embargo was placed. They have tough times not only buying new cars but even replacement parts for old cars. But hey, let's keep them in this state just so you can go and visit this quaint island.
It's funny how you dislike Americans so much, yet you're in reality far worse than the average American you despise so much.
And in arguing that, you accept that Castro and his revolutionaries had a right to take the American owned land in Cuba away from the US. Lets face it he had far more justification, what him actually being Cuban and all.
Lenin referred to these people as "useful idiots".
No he didn't.
When a centralized authority assumes control of the resource, they own it.
So the board of directors actually own companies, not the shareholders?
Actually, that appears to no longer be the reason for the embargoes. It is all about keeping in power... Think about it, how many Cubans have fled to the US, because they hated Castro? A sizeable number, I think there are about a million of Cuban origin there, and they all want to keep on punishing Castro with these sanctions. They will vote for whoever is most against Cuba. Now where exactly are they? Well, they couldn't have gone far, so what is the closest state to Cuba... why, Florida! Now can anyone name a state where a million undecided voters really, REALLY matters?
To answer your biggest question:
No. Not surprised at all. I 'helped' a friend write a political science thesis on Cuba. Although you've reasonably well turned the clock back to 1934, you've come off as shallow because you haven't examined Cuban history very deeply. The Jones Costigan Act was meant to re-pay the costs of the Spanish-American War of 1898 in which the USA invaded Cuba and rid the Cubans of their Spanish overlords.
By linking their economy intimately to that of the USA, the Cubans were buying their ongoing protection as well. Throughout the first half of the 20th century there were real or at least perceived threats from foreign European powers. Placating the neighborhood bully is a relatively common method of insuring your own safety.
By the 50s, this system was becoming old. The Batista regime was becoming to arrogant, brutal and corrupt to recieve sympathy from the USA and the sugar producing states were developing. The Everglades was partially drained in the early fifties, producing wonderful sugar cane acreage.
Cuba was ripe for revolution and the US was unwilling to prevent it.
But for you to say, "Before 1959, Keynesian economics were more advanced in Cuba than in the United States." just shows the shallowness of your comprehension. Cuba was paying off an international debt and as a commodity producing nation had everything to benefit from stability in the commodity price. By throwing wide open the production, the revolutionary government obliterated that stability and forced their own nation into an economic tailspin which could only be rescued by joining the Soviet bloc. Soviet oil supported the Cuban economy for over 30 years, the Cuban people only managed to trade one master for another via revolution.
Fidel, as a true socialist, deserves respect, but his economic background was in no way Keynesian.
As usual the academic left tends to approach Cuba from an ideological standpoint without paying any attention to reality.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
So lemme see if i get this straight? Its better to live in a war torn nation with the possability of dying every day, living in substandard conditions and starving slowly every day than to live in a communist country. Its easy to say here, in an office, or a house or your car or wherever you are in your clothing which was made by an asian who makes 1/1000th of what you make a year, that its better to live in haiti than in a communist nation but until you've lived that life you really cant comment on it.
Of cause you will deny all that I have said, saying that I have a warped view of history, am an anti-american zealot or that I have my head full of conspiricy theories. But why do you say this? Because you too have been brainwashed by your government. But condemn the Cubans for it. You somehow have been convinced that your government is conducting a rightious crusade against the ideology of the corrupt ledership and liberating the people from tyranny, when really all it is doing is robbing medicine and food from the people when the corrupt ledership can still get whatever they want. Your told that America is the country of freedom and honesty while Cuba is the country of propaganda and lies when in reality it is your government that calls Cubans to defect yet turns them back in the water. America is in an indefensable position here, Castro may be a brutal dictator and a warped propagandist but whatever harm Castro has done to Cuba, America has easily done triple.
Cuba is not evil, Cuba is just another country with it's own stupid ideas that will get it nowhere. The Cuban government does not deserve placation either. However what Cuba needs is a little bit of compassion for the innocent people who are being hurt by America's oppression of them. America is not evil either, but what America is doing to Cuba is far more evil than placating Pol Pot or Edi Amin or any evil person who has ever walked.
Blindly patriotic Americans may mod me down all they like, but for every -1 I get, that's another demostration of how widespread this brainwashing is.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Did you know you have to be either a member of the communist party or a foreigner to access the Internet in Cuba?
Amazing...
I think that there is a general understanding even here in the US that the sanctions on Cuba are both counterproductive and implimented in such a way as to hurt the generally innocent Cuban civillians. I think that most Americans would favor more trade with Cuba. The problem instead however is that the ages of the past seem to lie like a nightmare on the present, and what was once a cold-war imperial policy (the Cold War was an imperial chess game between two cultural and political empires, IMO).
See here is the problem: During the Cold War, the US implimented a policy of helping Cubans who didn't much like Castro immigrate to the US, where they now make up an indispensible voting block on one of the most important states (Florida). In doing so, we have essentially imported Castro's oppoisition to the US, where they are now a formitable force. Sort of a tail wagging the dog....
So now, anyone with presidential aspirations cannot afford to alienate this group. So while we can pursue free trade with China (which seems to be helping to force them to transform their economy to more of a market one), it is politically impossible to do this with Cuba.
Furthermore, lets look at this idea of placating evil. I have only a few names to mention: Joseph Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, Ho Chi Minh.... Each of these people have either been close US allies or CIA operatives. With friends like these, who needs enemies? Just like the Germanic tribes and the Romans, only former allies can beat the world's largest superpower. We saw that with Vietnam, and we may be seeing that today with Iraq.
Today, things are probably a little better, but we still see issues with the regimes of countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Russia in terms of systematic oppression of their peoples. Yet these are still our current allies. China was left off the list because I don't think that they are really being seen as an ally at the moment. So I ask again, with friends like these who needs enemies?
Interestingly if oyu look at Africa, those countries which during the cold war associated themselves with the USSR are now further in their transition to democracy than those dictatorships that the US propped up. Sometimes I think that we are our own worst enemy in these regards.
Our embargo of Cuba is an anacronism, and a relic of days gone by which has unfortunately institutionalized itself. Free trade is the one weapon we could use with impunity against Castro and which his government could not withstand. Yet it is off the table because it is seen as placating him.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
He is one of the most articulate politicians of the last century. You may fully disagree with him, but you can't challenge much his consistency.
He is educated and cultivated, when he talks to friends he prefers to talk about literature, poetry and movies than about politics. He would put to shame most other world politicians on a debate or discussion, and very often does when given a chance.
His ideology may be unrealistic but it is not irrational. Christianity is also irrational but follows a dogma. In general nobody calls the pope nuts for this reason.
The failure to encourage Cuba to become a democracy has a lot to do with the underestimation of the capacity of Fidel Castro as a politician.
Cuba would perhaps be a democratic country today if successive US goverments would have treated Fidel Castro as the able politician he is and offered him a dignified way out of his isolationism.
The US have done so with far worst dictators.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
That doesn't change the fact that food prices are 30% higher due to the sanctions, which means that being allowed to import from the US would provide 30% more food for the same amount of money, almost eliminating the change in caloric consumption - *and* the fact that even in their present state, Cubans are better off than many, if not most, Latin American nations when it comes to malnutrition.
As an example: Cubans eat a large portion of their calories from rice. Currently, they import most of their rice from Europe, which has to be shipped across the Atlantic. Yet, some of the cheapest rice in the world is grown in Texas, right nearby. It's things like this that make food have an effective "embargo surcharge" in Cuba. Incidentally, it hurts US farmers at the same time.
Freeze Ray. Tell your friends.
The UK forgave the US. Why can't the US forgive Cuba?
I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
No other nationality gets this special treatment. Haitians fleeing death squads get sent back to machine guns: because that dictatorship is run by our evil bastard.
When I lived in South Florida, and before I broke up with my ex (note: she was cuban), she'd have the spanish language TV (from Miami) playing and they would interrupt programs to show immigration racing cubans to the shoreline with commentary. Kind of like the LA stations showing car chases from their helicopters.
Fair enough on most points, except that the risk of punishment and severity of it was way overstated. For example, in 2003 (the last year that I found a list for), Amnesty International reported only three executions in the country (all for the crime of hijacking a passenger jet).
Yes, you don't have freedom of political speech in Cuba, and that is a shame. However, lets not overstate the situation here. For the vast majority of people (who choose not to involve themselves in politics and political institutions), as with Iraq before we invaded, it doesn't affect their lives much. Their main issues are things like economics, healthcare, education, security, etc - the things that citizens all over the world concern themselves with. Different individuals will differ as to how much of Cuba's problems are Castro's fault and how much are America's (often to extreme degrees), but the most even a very vocal dissident generally faces is jail time.
Freeze Ray. Tell your friends.
You are correct about the official executions. Unofficially, however, Cuban policy has been to use lethal force to stop escapees. See the 13 de Marzo massacre for instance, in which Cuban coast guard sunk a fleeing tug (killing 41) or note the Clinton administrations's formal protest in '93 of the cuban practice of shooting swimmers in Guantanamo bay...
o ) consistently find evidence of torture of political prisoners (most commonly beating, burning with a cigarette, etc) and bad jail conditions (5x5x5 cells, no medical treatment, no sanitary facilities, etc) resulting in the occasional death of prisoners of Conscience. Since the 2004 crackdown, it doesn't seem that you have to be very vocal to be imprisoned under the vague anti "disprespect" or "Propaganda" statutes...
Even if not executed, being jailed in Castro's Cuba is not exactly a joyride. Amnesty International's annual reports (http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/cuba/index.d
Fidel may not be responsible for all the ills of Cuban society. But he is responsible for the political system's consistent oppression of the cuban people. I'm not here to defend the embargo, but I certainly don't have any affection for bully and won't waste any time trying to figure out what percentage of the oppression is his fault. Cuba Libre... But it won't happen under Castro (Fidel or Raoul).
http://metapundit.net
You started a long list, so we might just as well work towards making it comprehensive.
Among the democrats and/or moderates which the US replaced or actively helped to replace with dictators, we could add
Patrice Lumumba, assassinated in Zaire
Jacobo Arbenz, overthrown in Guatemala
Among the dictators which the US helped to stay in power for far too long:
The Shah of Iran (this backfired, since when he was eventually overthrown, it was by someone probably even worse: Khomeini)
And basically all of those who ruthlessly ruled Latin America until recently.
In fact, I'm trying to find a case where the US helped overthrow a dictator to let room for a democratic regime. The most recent case I can think of is Hitler. Has there been another since?
Actually, we're on the main page on all of this; I agree with you on the conditions, the measures allowed to stop escapees, etc, and how bad they are. I also agree that Cuba won't experience significant reforms under Castro. My only issue is to impress the sense of scale. Even the March 18, 2003 crackdown (you meant 2003, not 2004, right? I'm not aware of any significant 2004 crackdown) involved only 90 people. That's 1 in 367,000 people - not exactly a significant number, to say the least (worldwide, you have better odds of being killed by a volcano: 1 in 215,000 per year).
:)
Also, the Castros can't last too much longer; even the younger brother, Raoul, is almost 74 (Fidel is 78). Frequently, the passing of an oppressive leader heralds in major reforms - lets hope that this is the case in Cuba.
Freeze Ray. Tell your friends.
After reading some of the comments, I couldn't help creating an account and posting this. Images can say a lot more than words. Visit www.therealcuba.com I'm cuban and it really hurts too see someone defending such cruel system (most of them not even know the truth about the country and everything its people - including my familiy and friends- go through each day)