Slashdot Mirror
Russia Planning Double Mission to Mars
dylanduck writes "Apparently Russia has revived a previous plan to send a spacecraft to Phobos, a tiny Martian moon. Turns out it's a cool place to land - much easier than the surface as far less deceleration is needed, it should have plenty of Mars rocks spattered on the surface and it's just 9000km above the surface. Some think it the perfect place for a Mars moonbase." From the article: "A mission devoted to the moons could explain how the satellites are held together - whether they are piles of rubble loosely held together by gravity or solid chunks. Most scientists assume the heavily cratered moons are captured asteroids, Christensen told New Scientist. But it is actually quite hard for a planet to capture an object into its orbit - most things just skim by. 'So how it got there is a bit of an enigma,' Christensen says."
Once more, panic swept across our fair world when it was revealed by the Council that the invaders from the evil blue planet intend to assault our innermost fortress satellite.
The fortress satellites, which have stood guard over our world since the Council placed them into orbit over ninety Great Cycles ago, have easily fought off all invaders in the past. Against the cunning machines manufactured by the disgusting water bags inhabiting the evil blue planet, however, the fortress satellites may be more vulnerable than previously thought.
K'Breel, Speaker for the Council, stressed that there was no cause for alarm:
When asked if rumours were true that the faction of blue-planet-inhabitants responsible for the threatened invasion was the same as the one who had just recently failed utterly to launch a primitive solar sail device into space, K'Breel laughed maniacally.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
...people should really pay more attention to Robert Zubrin. If you haven't read his book, I suggest you do so. He has shown that it is possible to get a mission to the actual planet (not the moons) relatively safely using the same kind of technology that we used to get to the moon in the 1960s. (Of course, with what we have now, it would be "easier" and safer", and those are in quotes merely because I am appreciative of the difficult and danger.)
We (as humans, not just as specific country-people) need to recapture our pioneering spirit, and get someone to Mars. What we'll learn and accomplish will far outweigh the danger. Imagine if people had been too initimidated to round the horn of Africa, cross the Atlantic ocean, or go to moon! It's time we got that adventurous spirit back, and applied it planet-wide. If we pay attention to our smart people (ie, Zubrin), it's not something that need be far off in the future!
libertarianswag.com
If they forget the shotgun they'll be screwed on like the fourth lebvel.
I think we should go.
I know money could be spent elsewhere, but hey, isn't it the exploratory nature of humans to venture into the unknown?
gravity captures YOU!
Ok, yeah that was lame.. I'm sorry.
Yes, I am a smart ass; it's better than the alternative.
In Soviet Russia... Mars visits you!
Just as long as we don't attempt to create a transporter once we're there...
"A truly wise man realizes he knows nothing."
Just like our own Moon, Mars' moons were probably formed at the same time that Mars was formed. As the galactic dust swirled around the Sun, it slowly clumped together and grew into large planets. As each planet grew larger, they became an elliptical focal point for the surrounding space dust and trapped moons into orbit around themselves.
So that's why we have moons around planets. It's also why they rotate and revolve very periodically.
Phobos is going to be just like our moon. Dead.
Better to send a probe to one of those moons with liquid like Titan or Europa. Much more interesting things to find there.
Let me know if the lander encounters any Leather Goddesses of Phobos. (Great '80s game, btw.)
It must be Windows. It needs half a gig of RAM and a hardware-accelerated graphics card just to run Solitaire.
...they find a black monolith at the core of the moon. ;P (Yeah, I know... wrong planet and all, but "enigma" and "black monolith" go together so well.)
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Some think it the perfect place for a Mars moonbase.
;)
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, besides the "shock and awe" of getting to the moon, why isn't there a drive for the practicality of a base on our own moon?
I think it's time that more of our space exploration gets practical, and not HR fodder. "Hey we're technologically superior! We got to mars!"
How about "Hey, we're technologically superior! We have colonized space and use those colonies as jumping points for marsian missions!"
Too hopeful?
Error 407 - No creative sig found
The story in New Scientist is here
They'll need a base on each moon to begin the UCP
teleportation experiments...
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
The Russians are going to Mars? At least, they shouldn't have any problems converting measurements.
the Leather Goddesses there?
The real reason for the trip to Phobos is to photograph the Leather Goddesses
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Great, a Mars moonbase on Phobos is only the first step towards opening an extradimensional portal! Damned UAC scientists...
Bored? Browse Slashdot with a +6 modifier for Troll comme
I think we have to hope for leather godesses, but plan for daemons.
-Peter
If you're gonna make a mars base on a moon of mars, what's the point? Just make it on the surface... It's really not THAT much different to go to the surface than it is to go to the moon. Granted the deceleration needed is less, but then you have to worry about how to get from the moon to the planet... the extra fuel needed to decelerate onto the planet is proabably a lot less than making a hop on the moon first ;-)
I do think we should go and look at the moon there though, that could be neat.
Some people write well.
Others just write good.
(bonus points to those who understood the double meaning)
That no one in here has made a DOOM reference yet.
Base on Mars' moon? I've seen this before, somewhere... and something happened... I don't think it was very good. Ah well, as long as they don't mess with teleportation.
I, for one, welcome our new pink overlords
Some think it the perfect place for a Mars moonbase."
Don't they remember what happened the last time we put a base on Phobos?
You know Russians are a very shoe-string type people, a story goes that Americans spent 2 years and a Million dollors to invent a pen that would work in micro-gravity... Russians used pencils. I would not be surprised if Russians make it there first, anyone smell another space race on the way?
Maybe God put it there.
> SLASHDOT
Slashdotter descriptions. (Lewd mode wasn't enough for you, was it, you perv?)
> KISS MY KNEECAPS
She blushes a bit, and admonishes you with her finger. "Nyet, comrade. In Soviet Russia, kneecaps kiss you!"
I am all for increasing space exploration, and by all means the more people (or countries) at the party the better, but has there been any coverage of how they plan to pay for this effort?
They had serious problems meeting their obligations for the ISS, they operated MIR on a shoestring, the economy is improving but do they have the cash for it?
I hope they do. I hope the US shakes more money loose from the trees for our own programs as well.
What do you know I wrote a novel
...To be modded redundant.
...Desist!
$location={"Soviet Russia", "Mars", "Earth", "The known universe and possibily all of its parallels"}
$object={"satellite", "Mars", "gravity", "spaceship", "CowboyNeal", "our new overlords"}
$verb={"lands", "launches", "explores", "infests", "destroys"}
print "In $location, $object $verb YOU!\n";
That would make it a Phobosbase? Or a Phobase? Just name it what it is. If we follow that pattern we'll end up with things like the Beta Promixa Centauri Two Seventh Moonbase.
And the story was wrong. It was a gimmick by a pen company
This is just another example of the political rhetoric we hear on a daily basis. They say they're going to go to Mars, but it won't happen. Just like Bush said the US would go to the moon and Mars. It won't happen. This is just a case of politicians being politicians, and spewing out promises that will never be acted upon. Give this a few hours and we'll have forgotten about it.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
If your going to establish bases on both moons, whatever you do, dont let them conduct teleportation experiments
Putting a lander on Phobos should be interesting, since the moonlet is covered by a meter-thick layer of dust. When I imagine a craft making a landing, I picture throwing a rock into a bowl of flour. On the plus side, maybe we'll make the first sizable, intentional man-made crater outside the Earth.
I guess Phobos is better then Deimos... the latter is thought to have a layer of dust several hundred feet thick (or should that be "several dozen meters thick"?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Don't forget the duct tape. Seems that the russian space agency are doom players.
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
In Soviet Russia, all of us are belong to base.
We know the luck they've had with their Mars probes.
I think it is because of all the problems we had with moon base alpha back in 1999.
Insert Generic Sig Here:
Dammit, why doesn't anyone have a proper sense of humor anymore? Clearly the link should have looked like this: Mars moonbase.
I would hope that they would still decelerate all the way before landing. Messy otherwise. Or maybe Phobos has enough velocity relative to Mars that you just sort of slow down a little and hop on?
(Presumably, the intended meaning was that far less fuel is required for deceleration.)
sigs, as if you care.
The two moons of Mars are not very big and although their gravitation is minimal, they don't present very big targets either. In order to land on one, you have to match the speed almost perfectly, then slightly chnage yours and then just as you get there match it again, hopefully you can then latch on.
While that may not sound like much, for a probe with no help from Earth (Mars is on average 8 light, hence radio minutes away) this is a difficult task.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
"Less deceleration" only in that Phobos' gravity well doesn't add much velocity to the probe's velocity as it approaches the moon; however, being airless, it will be impossible to use any aerobraking (unless the mission profile uses a 'skip' into Mars' atmosphere to bleed off excess velocity); having to carry fuel to perform all the deceleration by thrust makes the probe heavier, which increases the amount of fuel required (lather, rinse, and repeat).
Actually it is true. However what they don't tell you was that the graphite from the pencils got into the lungs of the cosmonauts and killed them.
Pencils are bad for space. Graphite dust floating around and in electronics is a catastrophe waiting to happen.
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
Sending a mission to Phobos is like bypassing New York City in order to visit Newark. Phobos is of vanishingly small scientific significance compared to Mars. For some inexplicable reason the Russians are fixated on it. No harm I guess. Wouldn't it make more sense to visit an asteroid of a type not yet encountered (metallic).
an ill wind that blows no good
Will this myth ever die???
Here is the truth.
Mark him a foe if you don't like him. Then mod foes down by ten or so. Otherwise, get over it. Its a free message board.
Thanks.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
.. it should have plenty of Mars rocks spattered on the surface
...
Funny that they mentioned it...
Can anyone explain how can 'a plenty of rocks' leave Mars and land on its moon ?
Bonus question is to explain the appearance of 'martian meteorits' on Earth.
Somehow I have troubles imagining the level of volcanic activity required to catapult rocks to the neighbouring planets
3.243F6A8885A308D313
Phobos' orbit is decaying and will likely crash into Mars or split into a ring within 50 million years
very subtle :)
How much is that in the RMS (the Redneck Measurement System) ?
At least that's what the text skimming adbot on the rightside of the page for Deimos, Phobos sister moon has. For Phobos you have to be satisfied with ads for relativity and photons and such.
I wish them good luck, because with their mars-probe's success ratio they'll need it!!
They saved on the pen and on retirement benefits for the Cosmonauts.
Think like an accountant, man.
In terms of payload to be delivered, if this could get recognized as a contractual obligation, it would be cheapest to build the space elevator.
It might be cheapest to capture an asteriod and park it in orbit (a few billion dollars, maybe a month's worth of war money at our current rate,) and use it to 'grow' some nanotubes down to the surface of the planet.
Yeah, I can see it...
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
at this moment.
Worse, with a growing deficit, we may not be able to afford it. Right now, China and the Middle east are proping up the deficit . But both groups are deciding that they would rather start buying our companies and skip supporting the deficit. If that happens, then the only way to attract money to finance it is to increase bond rates, which will increase prime. As it is, with prime going up, the economy is slowing again.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Awwww, is da poor baby jewous? Does it wants its kawma, too? I don't think TMM gives a rat's arse about your whiney little complaint. Your seething green envy is patently obvious to anyone. I'm not a great big fan of TMM, but he is amusing and occasionally has something informative or insightful to say. Which may be why he's got about 100 times as many fans as you do. And why not? He's not a juvenile little troll. Whether it works for you or not, he at least tries to contribute something of value to this site, which is far more than you do.
I find my thoughts drifting to images of you, red faced and out of breath as you furiously stroke your tiny member while picturing your mom doing it doggy style with a trained seal, and frankly it makes me sick. Leave the poor seals out of your deranged fantasies.
Let me know how the whole penis pump/herbal viagra thing works out for you.
1992 called, they want their dumb catchphrase back.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Think of the last good eruption on earth. How high was the dust cloud.
Why wait to capture an asteroid? Just move Deimos or Phobos over to an earth orbit (I'm still pratting on about my previous post about building a space elevator. It needs an anchor point in orbit. One of those would do it. Then we move the equipment do Mars and repeat the process there. An earth space elevator would be great if it had a mars elevator at the other end.)
And think of the penal colony potential.)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
From that point of view, I'd expect Mars would be easier to reach than Phobos, though clearly the latter has the upper hand when it comes to the return trip.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Back then, we had as much knowledge of earth's moon, as we do of these moons. And all the naysayers were positive that we would be landing on dust several hundred feet thick and the landers would just sink in. hence the reason for the big feet on them (snow shoes).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Wow, you could replace "Russian" with "American" in the parent and it would still be true.
Vincent J. Murphy
Spandex Justice
This is doomed to failure.
First, they are communists and G-d hates them.
Second, it is not our place to challenge the Heavens. He allowed us to reach the moon to give us a taste of the Heavens. Through Apollo 13 He showed us that He would no longer allow us to enter His space. He is testing us. Should we try to intrude on Him again nothing but ill will fall upon us. Tread carefully Russians, I don't want to die because a bunch of commies are challenging G-d.
They'll be able to get ALL the channels.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
With a 10.3 m/s escape velocity, i'd be scared to have a moon base there...
Didn't Arkady already build the train track around Phobos? You know, to minimize the effects of zero-g.
Oh wait nevermind.
What cell phone company was that again? We lost the cute pink alien in one of the cell-phone mergers.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
an early post filled with regurgitated article with something that deserves a +5 Insightful
You're just jealous because you can never get "frist psot" anymore. I for one welcome our new Insightful overlord.
Cheer up, 1992_called! You'll be dead soon!
^_^
--
Trolling the trolls since um...June 2005.
Sheesh, those Russians must have a terrible education system. Isn't it obvious that the Martian moons are there because God put them there in His Ultimate Wisdom?
Some think it the perfect place for a Mars moonbase.
Will it have a "laser"? There's no sense having a moonbase if it doesn't have a "laser".
a rover behaves in near-zero gravity. And how can it be tested it on earth.
According to Wikipedia, gravity on Phobos is slightly below g/1000. In other words a 400 kg rover will feel like it is 400 grams over there. That's almost nothing.
I've heard that theory before, but I was always under the impression that the 'accepted version' inolved that pesky asteroid strike which created Olympos Mons and the MASSIVE crater on the opposite side of the planet.
I suppose small chunks of the same rock could have come in moments later and had some nice happy aerobraking..
It is a fun problem: once you touch air, you are done without thrusters. There are no mechanisims which raise periapsis (generic term for perigee) fast enough to counter any significant resistence. But when a rock leaves from the surface of the planet, by definition if it is in 'orbit' then the orbital periapsis is going to be at the altitude from which it left -- e.g. THE GROUND. Hence there must be some complex interactions which occure at high altitude in order to but a rock into a 'real' orbit. However, I am certain that when you blast a trillion trillion tonnes of rock from the face of a planetary body, a few of the pieces will off-gas enough, explode, or just bounce of other pieces enough to obtain a longer-term stable orbit (days weeks, who knows? Maybe even eons). OR you can blast a bunch of rock into a trailing orbit -- it reaches escape velocity from Mars, and continues to orbit in the same heliocentric orbit, trailing or leading Mars by a bit, and slightly more elliptical. Their paths would cross once in a while for sure -- which could lead to a later recapture: see the part about super-nice velocity matching below.
The allowable mechanisms for an asteriod to be captured are much lower --- if it hits the atmosphere, that becomes its lowest point. Period. So it will continue to hit the atmosphere time and time again.
If asteriod is going so fast that the atmosphere heats it up enough to do anything, chances are it is going way to fast to be captured. If said asteriod is going so slow that it can be captured without aero braking --- well, lets just say that ANYTHING is possible in these timeframes, but I would never play a lottery with odds like that... unless we are talking about rocks that left Mars in the past and are in the same orbit as Mars is with respect to the sun.
Phobos is orbiting at about 2km/sec around Mars, Deimos at about 1.36 -- in just about the most perfectly circular orbits you ever could imagine (e = 0.001 and 0.00 respectively). Which means that these suckers were moving at almost exactly whatever speed the are going now when they were captured.
Next on slashdot, how the Russians will open the gates of hell.
perl -e "eval pack(q{H*},join q{},qw{70 72696e74207061636b28717b482a7d2c717b343 637323635363534323533343430617d293b})"
Question: Where did our moon come from? What are the non-captured-asteroid moons made of and what are their origins?
Read my blog: HansMast.com
You, my friend, have never eaten cat. They taste more like gamy mutton, not pleasant at all.
that with all these damn nerds around, nobody has made a decent reference to Doom. I'll sum them up:
- Whatever you do, don't let them build teleporters.
- Make sure to leave plenty of high-power weapons and ammo for those lying in random places.
- Give the blueprints to John Romero (yes I know he didn't do all of E1 but he was responsible for bringing the levels into their final form).
- If you branch out to Deimos, make sure to save the plasma gun until we get there.
- Put in plenty of speakers so we can listen to those MIDIs all the time.
- Make sure to build plenty of toxic waste dumps that get converted into labs and such.
- Do absolutely nothing to seal the portals from any sort of invasion.
ROMANES EUNT DOMUS
I wish I could find a more official article, but this is the first one I found on google:
;)
"In 1965, two cosmonauts overshot their touchdown site by 1,200 miles and found themselves deep in a forest with hungry wolves. That's when Russian space officials decided to pack a sawed-off shotgun aboard every spacecraft. It took Russian search crews more than two hours to locate the spacecraft and another two hours for helicopters to get support crews to the landing site."
From http://www.usa4id.com/ciwc/SawedOff.htm
As it is, they'd be more prepared than any Americans in space if they happened to open the gates of hell
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
I predict they'll try using more surplus ICBM's launched from subs, and get a couple feet farther than Cosmos 1.
Nemo
I get about 4500 m/s. That's 3600 to escape LEO and 900 to get captured by Mars. Am I wrong?
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
All we need to do is discover oil there.
'Funny' mods accepted at only 1/2 regular rate.
I'm only half kidding.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Apparently Russia has revived a previous plan to send a spacecraft to Phobos, a tiny Martian moon.
A tiny Martian moon? What, as opposed to the dozens of hyper-massive moons that orbit Mars? Seriously, neither Deimos nor Phobos could be called a large moon by any stretch of the imagination.
What would have been wrong with simply saying "Russia has revived a previous plan to send a spacecraft to the Martian moon Phobos"?
Those who do not know their astronomy can always Google or Wikipedia their way toward an understanding of the inner solar system. (Yes, I realize that I just verbed two nouns in the last sentence. Lighten up.)
Russians planning two more?
An awful movie... except where Tim Robbins dies... that was the high point.
M'n'Ms anyone?
Take for example, the race to the moon. Did the US go to the moon because the American population wanted to, just for the fun of it? No. The US and the USSR were locked in a cold war, each side vying for superiority on the global stage.
Europe was seen as the battlefield for the Third World War, which seemed like it might begin at any moment during the 1950s and 1960s.
If you were part of the leadership of a European nation during those years, you really would like to be aligned with the victor. Since the war would be fought with rockets, you probably watched the space race with great interest: After all, without an actual war, rockets into space provided a good proxy for actual military prowess.
In this game, the US was doing quite badly:
- The first artificial satellite in orbit around the Earth? The USSR did that first, in 1957.
- Who sent the first living animal (a dog) into space? The USSR, of course, also in 1957.
- The first man in space? The USSR did that first too, in 1961.
- How about the first woman in space? The USSR beat the US there too, sending Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova skywards.
- Which nation launched a man to orbit who then donned a spacesuit and drifted in the emptiness of space by himself? Yet again, the USSR did it first, in 1965.
Time after time after time, the USSR was handing the US its ass on a plate.In the international community, the USSR was winning the propaganda battle against the US.
Without the presence of the USSR, the US would have never sent people to the moon. We would have never seen the earth rise from behind the moon. We would have never seen people bouncing around the surface of the moon, kicking up dust.
So, parent poster, please do not say that nationalism is bad for space. Without it, we would have never escaped the gravity well.
Okay, who do you prefer? garcia or TMM?
arn't they allready having trouble paying for there share of the space station
I'm am in absolutely no way a "scientist" of any kind; but how about this theory:
;)
When the "big bang" happened, the universe probably looked very dusty. There was all sorts of matter, dispersed indescriminately among void. When the particles of matter started attracting each other via gravity (we should be praying to 'G' without the 'od' as it is [most likely] the real creator of the univers), the attractant energy between them whirling around and finding each other probably created positive and negative feeds that eventually disipated after the "great settlement"(copywrite and trademark bhsx as of now). This would cause more energy and friction causing acceleration in the particles till they smash together, and instantaniously create new gravity fields, governing their new environments.
OK, that was quite a rambling, and probably built on completely false assumptions of physics, of which I'm a layman (although I do know how to fall correctly); but can anyone even understand what I'm trying to get at?
P.S. It's Friday night here... I'm a little toasted!
Keep in mind, the "Preview" button is taunting me right now, beging for my approval, but I'm ignoring him. He's not my friend.
Moderators: +1 Drunk
put the what in the where?
Because in Soviet Russia, Mars comes to you!
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
The Moon is right next to the most valuable real estate in the Solar System and perhaps in the galaxy. OTOH, Mars will have minimal interaction with Earth's economy for a long time to come.
In summary, there is a lot more on the Moon than Mars in the short. Even in the long term, I see problems with Mars being at the bottom of a deeper gravity well than the Moon or many other bodies in the Solar System.
With a TTL of 52, your request would time out before the reply actually came back. Unless it was a TTL of 52 days or some larger increment.
I'd like to point out that these haven't been tested in any long term basis yet. By long term, I mean longer than a few miliseconds. The 30 MW tests are conducted using a huge bank of capacitors which take hours to charge. the problem is in maintaining hard vacuum at the thrust levels these things are supposed to put out. They're suppposed to bridge the gap a bit between the high Isp/nearly insignificant thrust of ion propulsion and the abyssmal Isp/really high thrust of traditional chemical rockets.
The problem mentioned on the Wiki page is inaccurate... some background: MHD's basically work the same way as a rail gun, but instead of slugs, quasineutral conducting plasma* is used. and instead of rails, concentric annode and cathode are used. The magnetic field is generated by the current through the cathode AND the annode and is necessary for operation of the thruster. The other element is the current through the plasma, set in motion by the electric field generated between the cathode and annode.
The problem is twofold. For efficiency, you must generate a uniform current sheet. This involves some complicated finite elements modeling and is not afaik perfected as of yet. In addition to being inefficient, concentrations in current will wreak havoc on the surface of the cathode, further compounding the problem. In addition to this, even ideal cathodes will ablate due to the high temperatures and currents. This ablation will not be uniform, which brings us back to the first problem. Wear of the cathode is the most significant engineering problem before these things can be used in space, but they hold the most promise so far for an interplanetary drive.
In the meantime, look up Hall thruster, (which trap a "sea of electrons" instead of a physical cathode-i think) and Pulse plasma thrusters (a pico-thruster for really fine adjustment - and some so simple you could build one at home) both of which have actually flown.
Unfortunately, this is not a earth-to-orbit technology. Like ion drive, this tech requires high voltages (which simply will not be achieved in an atmosphere) and still does not have the raw thrust available in a chemical or nuclear rocket.
*Yes i know that was redundant, but it's so fun to say.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
11.7 Gigawatts? 11.7 Gigawatts? Great Scott!
As a proof of concept, do we care? It's like visiting Newark when nobody's ever crossed the Atlantic. Sure it's not NYC, but if the harbor's that much harder to navigate, maybe we should concentrate on the big puddle, and worry about the little one with jagged rocks later.
Don't get me wrong, I bet Ferdinand and Isabella were pissed back in the day, but do we still expect a maiden voyage to come home laden with gold and spices?
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club