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Space Ring Could Combat Global Warming

telstar writes "Though the debate continues around global warming, a new proposal suggests building an artificial space ring around the Earth to block the light of the sun and bring a balance to solar radiation, cloud cover, and heat-trapping greenhouse gases. The ring could be comprised of particles which would scatter the sunlight, or be built by an interconnected ring of spaceships aligned to block the light. The former proposal is estimated to cost anywhere from $6 trillion to $200 trillion dollars, while the spaceship solution would run approximately $500 billion. Halo fans rejoice."

102 of 955 comments (clear)

  1. obligatory... by aendeuryu · · Score: 5, Funny

    Since the beginning of time man has yearned to destroy the sun...

  2. well... by schnits0r · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In this world of fantasy (which we do not live in) it would be nice...however I'd much rather my tax dollars going towards more enviromental regulations and research than some high tech sci-fi wonder.

    1. Re:well... by blazer1024 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd much rather have my tax dollars going towards me.

    2. Re:well... by Cecil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can make no other explaination for what is occuring in our skies.

      Well, how about... jet engines are not 'clean burning' by a long shot. Yes, the hot exhaust causes condensation. However, depending on air conditions, that condensed moisture can either: be reabsorbed into the air from whence it came as humidity very quickly, or very slowly. If it is not absorbed then it simply keeps clinging to the tiny specks of carbon and other particulate matter in the exhaust, becoming -- you guessed it -- directly-seeded cirrus clouds.

      Why do you find them higher than commercial jetliners go? Because they RISE, being much hotter than the frigid air around them.

      Why do you find them over areas where there is no commercial air traffic? Why do they spread out and fan out? ... Uh, you have heard of this phenomenon called "wind" haven't you?

      Please, focus your energy on more realistic conspiracies. There are plenty of very possible ones happening right now. While you're dreaming of "chemtrails" the republocrats are stealing your country out from under your nose.

  3. Ahh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    How could this go wrong?

  4. One Ring... by brilinux · · Score: 5, Funny

    This would not work. Other planets would become jeleous and greedy, all of them wanting to get The Ring from us. There would be wars, many would die, and entire civilizations would die. What we need to do is get a neutral planet, one without such greed, who can take the ring, and hurl it into Jupiter. Then, the universe will be free.

  5. So... why a ring? by Gaewyn+L+Knight · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why not put a disk direct between us and the sun at a stable gravity point?

    We know how well solar eclipses work... why not just a permanent 'dimming'?

    --
    Telcos have alot of dark fibre in the States. Most people assume that's optical fibre...but it's actually moral fibre.
    1. Re:So... why a ring? by carambola5 · · Score: 5, Informative
      Because the location you speak of, the first Lagrangian Point (L1), is unstable. In strict three-body motion, if you place the "disk" exactly L1, it will stay there. Unfortunately, any slight deviation will cause it to move further and further from L1. Perturbations to consider:
      • There are quite a few other bodies you must deal with, so it's really not 3-body motion.
      • The disk is continuously under solar pressure. This "disk" is essentially acting as a solar sail!

      Stationkeeping under these circumstances is very difficult. There are plenty of other concerns... heat rejection, debris, etc.

      It was a good idea, but not feasible... at least not as feasible as the ring idea.
      --
      IWARS.
      People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
  6. Um. by failure-man · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wouldn't it be cheaper, easier, and more effective to, I don't know, build energy systems that don't release carbon? Just a thought.

    1. Re:Um. by ajs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is an amazing straw-man. Propose an INSANE idea for preventing the warming of the planet (hint: figure out the mechanism that causes ice ages before you go reducing the light that reaches the Earth), and then you can argue that major changes need to be made in the way humans live in order to prevent such madness. I bow in frustrated awe at the genius of that ploy.

      Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to just have a sane debate about how we treat our back-yard?

      Oh bother, go ahead. Do whatever you want. I'll watch. It's going to be fun watching the next 20 years of wild arm-waving at least.

    2. Re:Um. by learn+fast · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're forgetting about the corporations that will make more money by building the energy systems that release carbon and the $200 trillion space ring.

    3. Re:Um. by Sir_Real · · Score: 2, Insightful

      200 trillion dollars? What the hell kind of plan is that? Were they going to buy everyone a prius?

      Oh, and why aren't there any diesel hybrids?

    4. Re:Um. by CaptDeuce · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wouldn't it be cheaper, easier, and more effective to, I don't know, build energy systems that don't release carbon? Just a thought.

      Sure. Solar Power Satellites. Large arrays of solar cells assembled in earth orbit and the energy beamed to earth via microwave. And no, it will not be a "death ray". The beam footprint would be miles across with a power density a mere fraction of sunlight. See Geoffrey Landis papers and The SSP Monitor, or do a google.

      --
      "Where's my other sock?" - A. Einstein
    5. Re:Um. by xoboots · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't understand your argument. Are you for or against reducing pollution caused by fossil fuels? After all, INSANE reliance on fossil fuels got us into this mess, not? Nevermind that it is a non-renewable resource. There has been an attempt to engage people for the last 25 years in a reasonable debate on what to do about the pollution problem it causes (the evidence is overwhelming and the consensus in the scientific community quite plainly asserts this based on countless studies) yet the typical retaliation is to claim that it is too expensive to change anything. It is the class freeloader scenario where external costs aren't included in the price of the good itself which lead people to say such things. Is it worse that people should change the way they do things or that we blithely destroy the planet for all time?

    6. Re:Um. by MoneyT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, I won't do your homework for you. There are plenty of reasonable alternatives, just look at the literature;

      Like what?

      Solar Power? Solar is not efficient enough to surve the needs of the world, nor does it solve the problem of what to do when the sun goes down. Sure you can use batteries and charge them but then you need both more power overall and to do something with the batteries, and last I checked, batteries weren't high on the list of environmmentaly friendly products, especialy those rechargeable ones. We're not talking just short term headaches, we're talking long term.

      Wind power? Not counting the enormus amounts of window power you would need to actively power the world, there was also that study a few months back which estimated that wind power enough to cover the continent of australia could produce global climate changes on the same order of the worst case senarios from global warming. We're talking massive global temperature shifts from fucking with global wind patterns, never mind a complete change in the earths currents leading to a complete change in the ecosystem.

      Nuclear power? That seems like one of our best options but Nuclear is a political bomb, socialy the worls has a NIMBY attitude (you think it's hard gettign a cell tower in your town, try getting a nuke plant) doesn't solve the problem that we're still using a limited resource and merely shifts the waste and byproducts from the air to some bunker under a mountain, not exactly a good solution.

      So what is the good solution? No one is asking to do our homework for us, we're asking you to do your own homework.

      Should we focus on and use alt energy where we can and where it's efficient? Of course. But that doesn't mean we should go full stop either.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    7. Re:Um. by poopdeville · · Score: 2, Funny

      You are accusing me of being disingenuous (note the spelling -- this is the second time you make that churlish mistake) for offering a candid interpretation of the post in question. This is absurd, by the very definition of the word disingenuous.

      You claim that my use of the term "modest proposal" is unfounded. Of course, I never did say that it was the intention of the originator of the idea to use space rings to create a modest proposal. What I did say is that the article acts like a Modest Proposal, which causes people come out and say that it would be cheaper to curtail the introduction of carbon into the atmosphere than it would to implement such an absurd idea. Indeed, a cursory glance at the thread in response to the article reveals that this very point was raised at least a dozen times. Absurd schemes like the one presented in TFA have the effect of making people think of alternatives. This is an empirical truth, regardless of the author's intent.

      So I'm right. You're wrong, either through willfull misinterpretation or crap reading comprehension. If you really want to see whose dick is bigger, I'll warn you: mine is.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    8. Re:Um. by nuonguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, like that's the whole story.

      Whatever.

      Notice how it's called "climate change" and not "global warming" any more? PBS did a great show about the advertising biz. Apparantly the Bush regime worked really hard to remove the meme "global warming" and insert "climate change" so the likes of you will be less scared of it. Seems to have worked well on everyone, especially the 'mainstream media'.

      I'm not that afraid of nuclear power plants, but if Bush is involved, then "nukulur power plant" is probaly a euphimism for Domestic Terrorst Watch Tower. Read this. I got that link from metafilter.

  7. What the fuck? by backslashdot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What kind of a hair brained scheme is this??? What happens when global warming ends because we haven't any more money for cars having spent it all on this ring?

    Of the 6 trillion, why not spend the$ 3 trillion on environmentally safe energy (fusion plants, geothermal, solar panels in the deserts) and spend $3 trillion to buy off all the oil megacorporations.

    Besides, moving the earth further away from the Sun is a much more hair brained idea, so why not do that?

    1. Re:What the fuck? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Besides, moving the earth further away from the Sun is a much more hair brained idea, so why not do that?

      Your other ideas were hopeless, but this... this might get you some funding.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  8. Solar Cells by CommunistTroll · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You can buy a lot of solar cells for $6 trillion dollars.

  9. Solar Power! by Bri3D · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Additionally, the ring could have solar panels on the outside and thus power the whole Earth cleanly...unless there is too little silicon on Earth to build that many solar panels...yes I know there is a lot, but that's a lot of solar panel...

  10. Giving up. by CosmeticLobotamy · · Score: 5, Funny

    And in related news, Al Gore has ridden the mighty moon worm.

    1. Re:Giving up. by Tezkah · · Score: 2, Funny

      We just need all the robots to converge on the side of the Earth that faces the sun, and have them all point their exhaust pipes skyward, thereby moving the Earth slighty farther from the Sun!

      It'll even give us an extra week in each year. We will call it "Robot Party Week"

  11. $6-200 Trillion? by tyates · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They can't be serious. Who could fund this? Isn't World GDP only around $40-50T?

    --
    Tristan Yates
    1. Re:$6-200 Trillion? by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Insightful

      then we change the economy.

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    2. Re:$6-200 Trillion? by NitsujTPU · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, technically, by funding such a massive project, you boost the economy... increasing the GDP of involved countries and boosting the values of involved interests.

      That said, with out government and CEOs working together, they'd probably siphon all of the money out of the country into the hands of some country who doesn't care much for us... who would then proceed to nuke us into a sheet of glass.

    3. Re:$6-200 Trillion? by quarkscat · · Score: 2, Funny

      What global warming?

      I have it from a super-reliable source (George "Dubya" Bush) that there is no such thing as global warming. It is all a knee jerk, radical left wing fantasy designed to throttle the American economy (says he).

      On the very miniscule chance that "Dubya" is wrong, what exactly is wrong with global warming, anyway? The neo-Con(artists) always look at the silver lining in that dark cloud - a longer growing season, less need for winter heating, new opportunities for real estate development (sea-walls, dikes, new ocean-front property, and vast new markets for SPF-1000 suntan lotion. What's not to like?

    4. Re:$6-200 Trillion? by edunbar93 · · Score: 3, Funny

      that's enough money to keep the Iraq war going until the year 9188

      Cool! Then we can have oil *forever!*

      --
      "No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
    5. Re:$6-200 Trillion? by Peldor · · Score: 2, Funny

      We'll just put it on a credit card. Duh!

  12. $500 billion? by Alcimedes · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Or we could just cut down on pollution for FREE!

    Honestly, how much would it cost to require an SUV to get 30+ MPG instead of 15?

    1. Re:$500 billion? by CosmeticLobotamy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Honestly, how much would it cost to require an SUV to get 30+ MPG instead of 15?

      It would actually costs less than an SUV, you'd just have to dump half the steel to cut weight, which would reduce its size significantly. I propose we call the result the "carr." Or something like that. I don't know. I'll leave that to marketing, but I'm gonna get my company on top of this. We'll make a fortune.

    2. Re:$500 billion? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Informative

      ... Someone please explain to me the need for SUV's and trucks when only a single person is driving in it...

      For one oil lobbiests have modified our tax code where an American can get an SUV or truck free of charge if they are a business owner in tax refunds. So why not?

      Second its because they can. They can afford to do so and are unaware that the rest of us pay for higher gas prices due to lack of supply while the rich like the comfort and safety of a big vehicle.

    3. Re:$500 billion? by MoneyT · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personaly, I would kill to have my truck back. When it broke down, I figured i was done moving and wouldn't need to haul much so I got myself a small fuel efficient car. Since then, I've had to do a lot of hauling that I didn't plan on, or that I didn't calculate when I estimated the use I got out of my truck. In all, I've probably wasted more gas on multiple trips than my truck ever did.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    4. Re:$500 billion? by cliffski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      nothing. Try driving a european car, especially the smart car. The amount of effort people in the US are prepared to go to so they can keep driving hummers and suvs is amazing. Sometimes you will even prefer to fight bloody wars in the middle east, although I'm guessing the families of the 1500 dead marines so far probably wish Bush had just put a few cents on gas prices instead.
      I guess thats what happens when you let oil companies fund election campaigns.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  13. Futurama by crazyaxemaniac · · Score: 3, Funny

    I thought we could combat global warming with giant ice cubes mined from Haley's comet.

  14. Allready done?????? by technoextreme · · Score: 2, Interesting

    According to wikipedia global dimming might have actually masked the effects of global warming. Too bad we got reversed the effects of global dimming. The two forms of pollution were canceling each other out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

    --
    Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
  15. Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia ... by Namarrgon · · Score: 5, Interesting
    What about that interlocking ring of spaceships being an interlocking ring of solar panels? Then that blocked energy can get diverted to earth in a more desirable form (via microwave beamed to a stable superconducting space elevator, something we particularly like the idea of here in my country).

    That might even take the pressure off the environment, as you could probably shut down most of the world's coal-fired power stations.

    --
    Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
  16. If there's any chance... by Brandybuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For decades we've been told by the environmentalists, "if there's even the tiniest chance that global warming is real and man made, then it would be foolish to do nothing about it." This is Pascal's Wager, but applied to a different religion. But two can play at this game!

    "If there's even the tiniest chance that global warming is NOT happening, then this would be an extremely foolish thing to implement, as it could trigger the next ice age..."

    c.f. Niven's "Fallen Angels"

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  17. The Onion Called by beavis88 · · Score: 5, Funny

    They want their article back.

  18. natural light by ImaLamer · · Score: 2, Funny

    The entire world becomes depressed, due to the absence on natural light, kills themselves or simply stop having sex. Doesn't apply to humans only, most higher forms of animal life ceases to exist.

    Of course, linux users are as chipper as ever due to the fact that they never seen natural light to begin with so they aren't as affected.

    (As someone with seasonal affective disorder, I see this as a death sentence)

    1. Re:natural light by PaulBu · · Score: 5, Funny

      The entire world becomes depressed, due to the absence on natural light, kills themselves or simply stop having sex.

      YOU stop having sex BECAUSE it is too DARK??? Hmmm... You are such a minority! ;-)

      Paul B.

      P.S. Lucky you to get that stunning nimpho supermodel as your GF! ;-)

    2. Re:natural light by Wog · · Score: 5, Funny

      Did anyone else read that as GIF?

    3. Re:natural light by ToasterofDOOM · · Score: 2, Funny

      What is this natural light you speak of???

      --
      I am Spartacus
    4. Re:natural light by Scud · · Score: 2, Funny

      Of course, linux users are as chipper as ever due to the fact that they never seen natural light to begin with so they aren't as affected.

      Or have sex...

      --
      I dream in binary.
  19. Re:200trillion can do a lot of things... by Clod9 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    > finding a way for foreign oil independence
    I think you meant to write "finding a way to eliminate dependence on foreign oil."

    In other words, let's start using the energy we get from the sun to meet our current needs.

    It's unbelievable that someone would suggest that we should restrict future energy delivery from the sun just so that we can keep on consuming energy stores from the past (oil) and pollute our sky with the smoke. Pure laziness. It's like a teenager cleaning his room by hauling his dirty laundry out of the house and burying it, wasting all the effort he ought to be using to just clean the clothes. Not that I've ever done this.

  20. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by ppz003 · · Score: 5, Funny

    For some reason, I'm getting an image of a charred barren hillside a few miles from the collector. A bunch of people are running around on fire. Oh, wait, that's a SimCity 2k screenshot. Nevermind.

  21. yeah...sure by Spytap · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And we will get the raw materials for these ventures...how exactly?

  22. $200 Trillion? by lheal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For that kind of dough, wouldn't it be easier just to move the Earth to a higher orbit (further from Sol)?

    $200 trillion (2.0 x 10e14 dollars), or even $1 trillion, is a big chunk of change to go spending on something we don't even know would fix the problem. What if it's not enough? How much money do you dump down the hole (or in this case, throw into the air) before you start thinking about alternate solutions?

    How much seawater could you pump into the central Sahara for $1 trillion? Make a giant salt marsh the size of say, Texas. Still plenty of desert left over, don't worry. But how much cooler would that make the globe? Don't even use 4-degree Celsius water from the Atlantic, but get 20C water from the Red Sea. It'll fill back up.

    Or, maybe we could just accept the changes in climate as the natural order of things (even if they're our fault - we're natural, too). If the oceans rise, move to higher ground.

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
  23. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Then we'd still be getting the heat. The whole point is to reduce the flux absorbed and trapped by the earth.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  24. It could happen by VacaBoi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Supposing you take the cheapest option, the $500 Billion Spaceships idea, over the course of 20 years -- that's $25 Billion per annum. Very doable.

    There's a bigger problem, though. How do you convice 6 billion to put up with constant illumination of the night sky? Not to mention, the Astrologer's Union would be rioting in the streets.

  25. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by Guppy06 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because it's easier to convince people to let you put a bajillion microsatellites into orbit than it is to convince them to let you build another nuclear power plant.

  26. Please.. by proteonic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're willing to blow 6 trillion on this, you should certainly be willing to blow 10% of that on reducing greenhouse emissions, weaning the world off of oil onto "greener" energy sources, etc, etc.. What the hell ever happened to practicality?

  27. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But that heat would be taken out of the chunk we produce when we consume energy from other sources, so it is still a net gain on the inward flux. Reducing emissions by closing coal plants would increase the outward flux. This also reduces the energy expended on getting at our current sources of energy, so less heat is produced by us. We win on all fronts.

    Personally, I'd like to have the huge space-bound solar collector with microwave transmitter, but in a place where it doesn't reduce the sunlight on earth. If we clean up our act with emissions we should have plenty of breathing room and not have to block out the sun just yet. And sunlight is useful for so many things.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  28. Screw Halo! by Rick+and+Roll · · Score: 2, Funny
    I like the way Futurama deals with the issue.

    For those who don't remember, the sport-utility robots (Bender included) get on a single island and blow fuel from their exhausts (read: asses) to propel the Earth away from the sun.

    That episode freakin' ruled.

  29. The human-caused global warming myth. by jdp816 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, does anyone even bother to think about where those 'fossil fuels' originally came from? Oh, oh, I know! It's the remains of vast swamp lands! So the fossil fuels are old concentrations of plant matter that's been fossilized & turned into hydrocarbons of various lengths and types. So all that stuff we mine up was once on the surface as living plants that took water and CO2 and sunlight to make the sugars that were the basis of our hydrocarbon fuels. So when we burn it, we are releasing matter that was already on the surface and in the environment. Thus, as long as we have some sort of reserves of fossile fuels left, there will be fewer greenhouse gasses (CO2, CO) in the atmosphere than before all those durn swamps photosythecised it into solid material. I make no argument against global warming per se, just against the assumption that "we caused it" and that we "we need to stop or the world will end." FUD, FUD, FUD. Life existed very well before the concentrations of materials lead to the fossile fuel deposits, and it will continue just damn fine even if we end up buring it all back out into the atmosphere that it came from anyway. Take a moment to step back a few levels from the general aruments of human-caused global warming and give it some real critical thinking of what is going on. Climates cycle, and that's a fact. Live with it, deal with it. You're going to have to 'cause we aren't going to do anything to stop it, nor should we. JDP

  30. Let's do the numbers! by Namarrgon · · Score: 5, Funny
    Lessee, the earth is about 15% Silicon, or nearly 896 billion megatonnes, particularly in the crust and bound up as quartz and other silicates. That's quite a lot of Si.

    Now, let's orbit these solar cells at 500 km altitude, i.e. a diameter of 13,756.3 km or circumference of 43,217 km. The article doesn't say how wide the ring should be, but to block 1.6% of the sunlight to a circle 12,756.3 km in diameter would require a strip about 160 km wide. That's 6.9 million square kilometers of solar cells in the full ring.

    Now the silicon wafer in a solar cell is really quite thin, typically around 300 microns thick, so that's only 2.074 cubic kilometers of silicon all up. Density is 2330 kg/m3, so that's 4,833 megatonnes of silicon required, or about 0.0000005% of the earth's resources. I think we have enough.

    Of course, the energy required to manufacture that sort of area of solar cells would be pretty high, but think of the returns. The earth receives about 1370 W/m2 in orbit, so multiply that by the area of cells facing the sun (2.04 million square km), and you get about 2.8 billion MW of incident radiation :-) Let's say these cells aren't particularly efficient, maybe 10%, plus transmission losses of another 70%, and you still have 84 million MW of usable energy, all day, every day.

    Now, in 1997 we used 380 quadrillion BTUs, globally, or about 111 quadrillion watt-hours. That's an average consumption of 12 million MW, comfortably within our budget for some time. An energy-producing system with a capacity of 7 times the entire global requirements is worth quite a bit.

    There's only one downside to this - if we divert all this energy down to earth & use it, it all ends up as heat in the end, which completely nullifies the original purpose of the ring (if you remember) of preventing global warming! D'oh!

    --
    Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    1. Re:Let's do the numbers! by TheKidWho · · Score: 2, Informative

      No it doesn't get sent right back into the earth because 80% of it is lost in space in the solar cells to begin with!

    2. Re:Let's do the numbers! by frizzbit · · Score: 2, Informative

      Standard space craft solar cells do not really have an overheating problems in Earth orbit so I doubt this kind of a ring of cells would either. In space every direction except towards the Sun and the Earth is always much colder than the cell so the cell has plenty of scope for radiating its heat away even without any dedicated heat radiating panels.

  31. Re:Would it? by ThisOrThat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well as they don't know 100% what is causing global warming, if it is actually happening and if it's not normal. The warming could be a cycle. At any rate, I could just see them over compensate and then "Opps...."

    I just don't think they really know what is really happening, there are a lot of inner dependencies and not all are fully known or understood yet.

    - Justin

  32. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by idonthack · · Score: 2, Informative

    Fusion plants didn't melt down, that was the Nuclear plants. The Fusion plants were stable.

    Of course, we all know the tornadoes were the best.
    ---
    A guy walks up to his friend and sees him hitting himself on the head with a hammer. "Why are you doing that!?", he asks. "Because it feels so good when I stop.", was the reply.
    Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

    --
    Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
  33. Booorrring..... by one_get_one_free · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is exactly why you'll never make a good super villian. You think too small.

  34. Sheesh by ArghBlarg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Or we could, ya know, spend 1% of that and colonize Mars, fund pollution free energy sources, control human over population, and, ya know.. STOP SCREWING UP THE EARTH. Yeah, let's build impossibly-large space structures with money that *could* go to solving the root causes (our bad ecological practices) instead of just behaving ourselves and taking care of the Earth, that's MUCH easier. What utter stupidity.

    --
    ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
  35. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Informative

    Massive chemical cleanup from production, massive ramping up of existing infrastructure, massive use of land to meet required energy levels.

    --
    You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  36. Highlander by jmartens · · Score: 2, Funny

    Come on! No one is going to make a Highlander solar shield comment!?!?!

    --
    Now that's a death ray!
  37. Debate?!? by geeber · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Though the debate continues around global warming...

    What an excellent opening sentence. The problem is, which debate is he referring to? Is he talking some real scientific debate? Or maybe a politically motivated debate based on non-science in which the powers that be try to confuse the public into believing there is no scientific consensus, with the goal being to maintain the status quo and avoid angering the energy lobby.

    Because, scientifically, there is no real debate anymore over whether or not man is impacting the climate and causing global warming.

    1. Re:Debate?!? by VivianC · · Score: 5, Informative

      Because, scientifically, there is no real debate anymore over whether or not man is impacting the climate and causing global warming.

      Your statement is true. The debate is over how much man in impacting climate change. The Earth has been through many, many periods in its history where it was warmer than it is today. This was before cars or factories. It managed to cool itself down.

      There is still much debate about global warming in scientific circles. There is much less debate in the media.

      --
      Viv

      Gmail invites for ip
    2. Re:Debate?!? by NitsujTPU · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because, scientifically, there is no real debate anymore over whether or not man is impacting the climate and causing global warming.

      Awesome. Have you a link to a paper in a reputable journal that discusses this finding? Who was it that finally, conclusively, proved this?

    3. Re:Debate?!? by flosofl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who was it that finally, conclusively, proved this?

      Probably the same guy that modded him informative...

      Seriously, everytime I see a study that "proves" one thing, someone else comes out and "proves" the opposite. And then that gets rebutted. And so on until it resembles an old Breck commercial except with uglier people in white lab coats. As far as I can tell, everyone is still bickering at about the same level as they were 10 yrs ago.

      --
      "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
    4. Re:Debate?!? by Stauf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is, which debate is he referring to?

      This one. Let's see, "some "greenhouse skeptics" subvert the scientific process, ceasing to act as objective scientists, rather presenting only one side, as if they were lawyers hired to defend a particular viewpoint. But some of the topics focused on by the skeptics are recognized as legitimate research questions " (emphasis mine).

      Legitimate research questions? That sounds like, scientifically, there is a real debate, because there are some things we do not know.

      From the same page: "We now know (Hansen et al. 1998a, 1998b) that the growth rate of greenhouse gases in the period 1988-1998 has been flat". And "it is apparent that the model did a good job of predicting global temperature change. But the period of comparison is too short and the climate change too small compared to natural variability for the comparison to provide a meaningful check on the model's sensitivity to climate forcings.".

      That sounds to me like the current models do not know whether or not man is impacting the climate and causing global warming. Don't let the actions of extemists cloud your views on the subject. Just because there are a large amount of people arguing that there isn't global warming, using only the facts that support their case and omitting others, does not mean that the case against global warming relies on omitting fact. Just because some people are arguing a case badly doesn't mean that there isn't a case to argue.

    5. Re:Debate?!? by nihilogos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Earth has been through many, many periods in its history where it was warmer than it is today. This was before cars or factories. It managed to cool itself down.

      Most people aren't really worried about the Earth. They're worried about the inhabitants. Mass extinctions usually accompany planetary wide climate change.

      --
      :wq
    6. Re:Debate?!? by MoneyT · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sucks to be a species that can't adapt. Thankfully we have AC.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    7. Re:Debate?!? by BigDumbSpaceApe · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Have you a link to a paper in a reputable journal that discusses this finding?
      Is Science acceptable?

      I find the resistance to taking even the slightest measure a little ridiculous. Much like evolution, no one has definitively proved anything. Also like evolution, the basic mechanics are of global warming are understood and the theory has been sitting around 100+ years waiting for someone to poke holes in it (GW was first posulated in 1890). No one has.

      In simpliest terms: There is no doubt adding large amounts of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere will tend to raise temperatures. There is no doubt that we are adding large amounts of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. There is no doubt that temperatures are rising. Q.E.D.

      --
      WWJD? JWRTFM.
    8. Re:Debate?!? by Decaff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Earth has been through many, many periods in its history where it was warmer than it is today.

      But (apart from the occasional meteor strike) this happened slowly.

      We are now talking about change in terms of decades, not millenia.

      Also, just because the Earth was much warmer naturally, does not mean we would like to live in those conditions. We have build our cities and farms and industries in conditions which have been stable for thousands of years or more. Even minor shifts in temperature, rainfall or sea level would cause significant and widespread problems for us.

      This was before cars or factories. It managed to cool itself down.

      Again, this took a very long time. If we help heat things up we will have to deal with the consequences for a very long time.

      There is still much debate about global warming in scientific circles. There is much less debate in the media.

      I would say it is exactly the other way around. Scientifically, it is pretty settled, but the media continue to report debate.

    9. Re:Debate?!? by Stauf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you come around the corner of a building and someone is there, pointing a gun at you (or at least in your direction), do you stand there arguing with your freind as to if the gun is a gun, if it's loaded, if it's really intended to kill you? Or, did you take the nescessary action to go back around the corner, out of the line of fire of that gunman?

      Stupidest analogy ever.

      We don't know if there's a clear and present danger, like a gun. We definitely don't know enough to justify a 'fix' that could be much, much worse then the problem if we turn out to be wrong.

      This discussion is about putting something between us and the sun so as to cool down the earth. But what if we're wrong and cooling down the earth sends the climate into global chaos? What if we trigger an ice age?

      I'm not advocating we continue with our current fossil fuel levels or anything like that. I'm advocating the view that we don't know enough to take such a drastic step.

      To go back to your laughable gunman example, you're advocating that me and my friend don't back around the corner (which would be like cutting back on our emissions), you're advocating that we dive into an open manhole to put something between us and him. Until we know where that manhole leads, maybe we should back off with the drastic measures?

    10. Re:Debate?!? by Decaff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And how do you know it did not happen quickly?

      Isotope ratios in ice cores and rocks.

      During the times of the vikings in Labrador they used to be able to grow grapes. They found grape seeds in the settlements. Try growing grapes now in Labrador. Not a chance!

      These were localised changes (like the 'mini ice age' in Europe). There was only minor impact on sea levels. We are now talking about global changes.

      Lets be frank, there have been multiple mass extinctions. And many of these happen in the wink of a eye WRT to the earth.

      So let's help make another one?

      I know this is going to sound silly, but imagine how much heat is generated by six billion bodies, and their associated infrastructure? Not insignificant!

      Yes it is, compared to the heat given off by other animals.

    11. Re:Debate?!? by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Funny

      Enough to power an evil robot army and virtual reality prison, that contains profound philosphical answers?

  38. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because it's easier to convince people to let you put a bajillion microsatellites into orbit than it is to convince them to stop burning gas in their SUVs.

  39. this sounds like a dumb idea. by graigsmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

    lets spend billions of dollars to put a ring around the earth. tons of fuel would have to be burned to do this. they could just throw some glitter into orbit. heres a better idea. have everyone on the planet plant at least one tree. trees would help cool the earth. because they hold more water. trees also help water evaporate so there will be more rain. more rain = cooler weather.

  40. What about rain-forests? by Indian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Any such solar radiation blocking device would most likely be in the equatorial plane - right above the equatorial rainforests.

    The rainforests getting less radiation means diminished CO2 absorbing capacity of the whole planet. If not done carefully, this could lead to dangerous levels of CO2 in atmosphere.

    Indian.

  41. Estimate by thebatlab · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How the hell do you actually estimate that something will cost 6 trillion dollars? Trying to get an estimate for something that can run upwards of a million dollars would be extremely hard.

    I mean, sure, if you're off by a couple million then it's not a big deal in the scheme of things but has there ever been a more "pulled out of our ass" estimate ever?

    Sounds like saying "We don't know but it'll be lots!"

  42. Are we using them to make the ring? by elliam · · Score: 5, Funny

    Then where will all the good posts come from?

    --
    http://www.andashdesigns.com/
  43. New and FABULOUS science by Mulletproof · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Now I know anything to do with space and the words "global warming" tend to induce a frontal lobotomy in many Sladot readers, but there are people actually taking this seriously??? Come on, there's gotta be something left in that cavernous skull to realize this has got to be one massive joke. I mean, somebody seriously misplaced the foot icon here.

    Look at it this way... You've got $6 trillion to $500 trillion dollars burning a hole in your "save the earth" pocket. Dontcha think that maybe, just maybe you could put that money to better use by throwing it at something that doesn't require lobbing multiton roman candles into orbit? I mean $500 trillion . You honestly can't think of an industry or two here on the ground you could revolutionize overnight, let alone in the time it'd take to assemble THIS project?

    Speaking of that, what sort of time frame are we talking? Any mention of such is amazingly absent. And we haven't EVEN gotten into the fact that the scientific community is still deeply divided on the exact cause of global warrming. Everything from man's impact to the natural warming and cooling cycles of the earth come into play. Hell, there are even published scientifc reports that say the Sun is hotter than previously measured. We still don't have a conclusive clue and these people want to throw a reflective tarp over a portion of the earth. What is the damn environmental impact of THAT? What happens to the plant and animal life UNDER it? Not as much heat or sun, that's for sure. Draw your own conclusions.

    I'm sorry, but this is a prime example of what happens when people who think they're smart smoke crack. They find implausible and extrodinairy ways to waste our money.

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
  44. Re:stationkeeping and solar radiation by StarsAreAlsoFire · · Score: 2, Informative

    If that's really a problem, then use a large number of smaller objects in orbit around L1. (SOHO does this already, so you can't tell me its impossible.)

    Actually, I was a student of one of the primary engineers of the SOHO orbit. She discussed it in class, and showed us the orbits and the fuel estimates etc. I assure you that we DO NOT have the ability to model a large number of objects around L1. We certainly could create this capability, but you are talking worse-than-realtime calculation times in our current state of technology (for many-multiple objects that aren't allowed to collide). The problem is already 'intractable' in the sense that it is multi-body dynamics -- no solution, must model via iteration.

    The SOHO craft's orbit looks like a seriously drunk dolphin chasing a drunk fish. Just looking at it made me fear going for a masters in orbital mechanics (which I didn't end up doing...hmmm ;~)).

    Thanks for the distances, had forgotten them. I really should do the math on the visual arc of the sun and compare to some random object at distance 'x', but I am really really lazy ;~)

    I agree: it could be done. Iff we needed it. I just think that a better idea, in terms of preserving the human race, would be to get some people the hell off of Earth! Eggs in one basket and all of that. :~). Not trying to be some cynical asshat shooting down what you say, although I do admit I probably come across that way in text mode. Technology like this *is* fun to consider :~)

    The '100 years' thing I tossed out was related to your statement re: space-elevator: in 100 or so years, doing this will be stupid cheap/easy compared to trying it today. Not actually cheap, nor easy: just in comparison to today :~)

  45. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by gessel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If we were to cover 1/2 the land area we've paved in the US with solar panels of standard efficiency, we'd generate as much electricity as we consume in all forms of energy in the US. The rest of the world is quite parsimonious by comparison, though they could so too meet all their needs and live as profligately as we do without environmental impact.

    It has been suggested by people not bothering to do the math that the change in albedo from the solar cells themselves would cause warming, but we've already paved twice that area.

    Biofuels are relatively inefficient compared to solar cells, but fairly simple as well and carbon net-neutral. Biofuels and solar hydrogen could meet our mobile and nightime needs easily.

    We can live as we do, with all the juice and cars and whatnot, so long as we do not too grossly expand our population, in a closed loop, steady state system. We could live quite comfortably if we overturned the Ford coup of the 1920s and reversed the graft-based decision to build roads and the 1950's military decision to build suburbs. With a predominantly urban population moving by train (or working close to home/at home) we could buy the solar cells with a few year's oil expenditures.

    Unfortunately Solar doesn't have the profit margin of oil, so there's no political/industrial interest. There's $10 trillion worth of oil in Iraq we took ownership of for a mere $1 trillion in military expenditures (at the current burn rate, given the time it will take to pump it out). The usual profit sharing (if we chose to share with the Defeated People) is 50/50, meaning at least 5:1 profit on that adventure for the country as a whole, but since Haliburton is actually getting paid for their efforts (and then some) and the profit will accrue directly to the oil companies and not back to We the People, it's an amazingly shrewd business deal, the greatest heist in the history of mankind: $10 trillion. Almost the entire US gross domestic product for a year.

    Nobody building solar factories is going to see that kind of profit, and without it they can't compete in the congressional auction. Laws aren't bought flat rate, they're sold to the highest bidder and no industry can outbid the oil industry.

    It would be far cheaper to convert the global energy economy to solar (as a combination of solar-thermal, solar-electric, and solar-biofuel with the only other long-term viable power source as a backup--breeder nuclear, which (not ignoring the very real waste problem) is the only other energy source we have that can meaningfully contribute to our long term power needs) than to build a great space ring. The low range costs are small compared to the current value of the known oil reserves (roughly $80 trillion, proven plus mid-range USGS unproven estimates at $40/bbl).

    It's technically easy to solve, but politically impossible.

  46. this sounds like a dumb idea, here's one of my own by benjamindees · · Score: 5, Funny
    heres a better idea.

    Uh-oh, I'll bet it's not...

    have everyone on the planet plant at least one tree.

    This could be going in the right direction...

    trees would help cool the earth.

    Yes, okay, and now for the science...

    because they hold more water.

    ... Okay, not what I was expecting, but let's go with it...

    trees also help water evaporate so there will be more rain.

    But, I thought we were storing water, not helping it evaporate? There must be some logical reasoning behind this...

    more rain = cooler weather.

    Oh. Dear. God.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  47. It didn't happen last time by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Around the year 1000 for example, it was much warmer than today. There's a reason why "Greenland" is called that: it had thawed and the Vikings could colonize and farm it.

    Then it cooled off some time later, and the colony was all but abandoned.

    The fun part is, the humans didn't go extinct, the gulf stream didn't reverse, ocean fauna didn't all float belly-up because of melting glaciers being sweet water, etc.

    Basically that's what gets me pissed off about this _political_ "waah, we're all DOOMED if you don't follow ME" hype about global warming. It's mis-representation and scare tactics.

    As was said, it's only the bullshit media and political speeches where global warming is a certainty, and certain doom is just around the corner. The media loves a good scare story. That's what sells. Actual scientific facts don't.

    The science part is a lot more ambiguous and not fully understood yet. It's not just that the earth has cooled off just fine before. It's also that:

    - The "Global Warming" measured, that started the whole hype, was actually based on limited data from only a tiny portion of the world. And it was only a 1 degree Celsius over a _century_ increase.

    - The Earth has periodic warming and cooling cycles, ranging roughly between 6 degrees Celsius cooler than today in the last glaciations, and some 6 degrees warmer in the times of the dinosaurs. Think roughly a sine wave spanning whole ages. With a lot of noise superimposed.

    And we're roughly in the middle. It's _normal_ to rise slowly on the average. Not this fast, but basically a century of it might well be measuring just the noise in the real signal. Especially given that:

    - Actual satellite data that covers a helluva lot more of the whole globe (you know, the "global" part of "global warming") actually shows a global _cooling_ for the last 20 years straight. There is actually a theory that we might be heading into a "mini ice age". (Not that it will stop journalists and politicians from presenting a _cooling_ as an effect of global _warming_.)

    - Also for this last interval, there is data indicating that the average temperature on Earth just faithfully follows fluctuations in the Sun's energy output. Think, for example, how we got a very warm winter between 2003 and 2004, because of solar flares. We can actually observe and measure those things nowadays, and blimey, temperature on Earth seems to just follow them.

    Is it that unbelievable, since Sun is where that heat comes from in the first place? We're talking some 0.3% temperature difference in this "global warming." It only takes _minor_ fluctuations in the energy input to produce that.

    - Humans never accounted for more than 2% of greenhouse gasses. If not only we stopped driving cars, but if humanity as a whole even stopped breathing, it still just wouldn't make that much of a difference.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:It didn't happen last time by stevelinton · · Score: 4, Informative

      The warming in the year 1000 was relatively local. The global average temperature has not been as high as it is now for, at least, hundreds of thousands of years.

      There is loads of data of many different kinds. Many of them (like oxygen isotope rations in polar ice) measure average sea-surface temperature globally.

      Your statement about satellite data is just plain wrong. Some cloud temperatures are lowering, but surface temperatres are rising.

      The CO2 cycle is roughly 200 GTonnes in (before 1900 or so) a balanced cycle, about half in the sea, half on land. Humanity now releases roughly 9 GT/yr, and the increase in atmospheric CO2 suggests that roughly none of this extra 9 GT is being absorbed anywhere, so the cycles seem to be slow to regulate themselves.

      Many of your other statements are simply wrong. See, for instance, the National Academy of Sciences report.

    2. Re:It didn't happen last time by kisak · · Score: 4, Informative
      There's a reason why "Greenland" is called that: it had thawed and the Vikings could colonize and farm it.

      Greenland was not a farm country in the Viking age. The name was chosen to convince others to join the colony; it was a PR trick (that didn't work). Rember, Iceland was called Iceland by the vikings, not a sign of this region of the earth was very hot a 1000 years ago. Actually we are in the warmest periode in 10 000 years it seems, since the ice on Kilimanjaro for instance has not been as reduced as it now for the last 10 000 years. It is true that when the dinosaures roamed, Svalbard which is north of Iceland, was inhabitated by creates that needed warm weather. But that is millions of years ago.

      Another misleading name by the vikings that settled the North American continent, is that Newfound land was called Vin-land (which means something like fertile land). (Some vikings settled in Newfound land but left for unknown reasons, the saga mention that the settlers there had problems with the native population. ) It is anyway not know what happened to the small colony of vikings that settled on Greenland. Some think that they had a bad winter and died. There is no historical account of the colony returning to Iceland or Norway. Another theory is that the vikings there joined the eskimos (or whatever they are called more politically correct) and became a part of their gene pool in a matter of speak.

      --

      --- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---

    3. Re:It didn't happen last time by kisak · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Basically that's what gets me pissed off about this _political_ "waah, we're all DOOMED if you don't follow ME" hype about global warming. It's mis-representation and scare tactics.

      Actually, what amases me about the political debate, is that a lot of the people who claim climate sciencists don't know what they are talking about and more research is needed before even doing the slightest initative that might help prevent global warming getting worse, are usually exactly the the same people that says that the risk is too high and we have to have pre-emptive wars however thin the intelligence and fact based knowledge is. I really can't figure out why killing thousands of people on flimsy evidence is so easy and then to turn their backs of thousands of scientific papers with worrying evidence and patterns since "we don't know enough yet to do anything that might solve this possible disaster for human kind"??? A terrorist might succeed to kill thousands of people in one go, or maybe millions, but how many will die if our climate goes beserke and water resources and food resources become to spare for the human population on this earth now?

      Another thing that amases me is that people list all these so-called facts, that suggest that global warming isn't happening or that the data only show that global warming only happens in some neighbourhoods around Cleveland, and then don't stop to think why climate scientist who spend a whole carrier studying this don't realise these simple "facts". Do deniers believe that there is some political conspiracy among climate scientist? Or that the journals Nature and Science are deliberatly attacking/suppresing climate scientist that have other evidence than what is published in the major science journals of the world? I really don't know the answers to these questions, but I find it very strange indeed.

      --

      --- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---

    4. Re:It didn't happen last time by Asterisk · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Rember, Iceland was called Iceland by the vikings, not a sign of this region of the earth was very hot a 1000 years ago.
      Nitpick: in Icelandic, the name of Iceland is spelled "Island". The original Norse word meant the same as the modern English word of the same spelling.
    5. Re:It didn't happen last time by Queer+Boy · · Score: 3, Informative
      Another theory is that the vikings there joined the eskimos (or whatever they are called more politically correct)

      Enuit. Eskimo is a racial slur that means fish eater. It's analogous to nigger.

      --
      Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
    6. Re:It didn't happen last time by Jonny_eh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Eskimoes are supposed to be referred to as Inuit. I don't think Eskimo is too insulting (last time I looked it up, that's the conclusion I reached), but they're referred to as Inuit here in Canada by most people. As times change, so does language and terminology. Nobody uses the term Negroe anymore.

      Inuit has a nice ring too, it's not cumbersome like the 'African-American' conjunction is.

    7. Re:It didn't happen last time by DarthVain · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just a little tidbit incase it hasn't been mentioned yet. Not sure where the term Eskimo came from, or why it is bad, but I do know that "Inuit" in their own language simply means "The People" so it probably wins the PC genaric name award or something. I always refer to them as the Inuit the same way I would say someone is Native rather than Indian. I am not sure how many native people would take real offence to being called Indian (same with Eskimo vs Inuit), but it seems generally more excepted and correct so that is what is used. Anyway thats it! Though I will mention that I have some Native friends that seem to use the word "Indian" much the same was Blacks (African-American just seems wrong to me, kinda like vertically challanged should be short people) tend to use the word "Nigger" (I shudder even as I say it, for whatever reason I abhor saying that word, yes White guy here, though is "White guy" bad? Meh who knows...). Though I doubt Inuit do the same with Eskimo, though you never know.... ok now that I have kinda freaked myself out talking about race and names and stuff I am gonna leave... Please don't take offence and hurt me people *ducks*

  48. Suppose... by rew · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Suppose that you get a big country like the US to invest something like US$5B into this project.

    Fine. Now you are blocking the sun on bunch of other countries that A) didn't pay for it B) don't want you to block their sun.

    This thing would be way TOO big not to block unwanted countries.

    If my math is correct, For each 8 tons of gold (or similar material that you can make very thin) you can create a ring of 1m wide, 10nm thick around the earth. (I did the math for "just above sealevel", or about where the spaceshuttle flies).

    This 8 ton ring would block .1 millionths of the sun's radiation. You need about a million tons to shield 1% of the sun's radiation, requiring only 25 thousand space shuttle flights.....

  49. Fair and balanced by MichaelPenne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You have on the one hand a peer reviewed, falsifiable, reproducible study that says one thing by a bunch of folks (perhaps in lab coats) who studied and workd 8-10 years of their lives to get to the point where they could be 'peer' reviewed.

    On the other hand you have something called a study with none of the above features (except the authors often have a TLA in something, though maybe not anything to do with atmospherics or even physics).

    But the press thrives on conflict, so it reports both studies as being by 'noted scientists' or maybe one was a fictional tale by some guy who wrote alot of SCIENCE (fiction).

    Most folks have no idea what 'falsifiable', 'peer review', or 'reproducible' have to do with anything important like the price of gas, so they believe the press when it tells them that the different 'studies' represent two sides of the issue (fair and balanced).

    And with enough money on both sides to support new 'studies' the debate could well go on until every last icecube in Greenland turns into liquid oxygen dihydride.

    Then the big controversy will be whether to build giant seawalls around the coastal cities or to run screaming for higher ground.

    And you can bet the press will present that story with two nicely balanced sides, as well.

    1. Re:Fair and balanced by Queer+Boy · · Score: 2, Funny
      Then the big controversy will be whether to build giant seawalls around the coastal cities or to run screaming for higher ground.

      }It's possible that fuel cells will reverse "global warming". With more water vapour in there air, one can only assume there will be more cloud cover. Before too long there will be people screaming that fuel cells are going to bring the new ice age.

      --
      Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
  50. fight the planet by nounderscores · · Score: 2, Funny

    Even if the climate change is natural, we may have the power to keep our planet at the temperature we want it at.

    After all, don't you like tropical islands? A working gulf stream?

    What if we could alter the amount of solar radiation received and tailor it to our needs to make more of the planet inhabitable and comfortable.

    More than that with a ship ring, we could get all the annoying people to crew the ring (or at least serve prison sentences on it).

  51. Re:EVER HEAR OF ICE AGES??? by Decaff · · Score: 2, Informative

    While the science may not know exactly why the earth warms and cools over thousands of years.

    It is to do with changes in orbits circularity and axis tilt.

    The fact is that is does, and the last time I checked there were no cars around thousands of years ago during the last warming cycle.

    The problem is not change, it is fast change. Current warming is occuring on a timescale of decades, not millenia.

    As recently proven (look it up yourself), every time a volcano goes off it produces more green house gasses than mankind has ever created since the industrial revolution.

    I have. This is nonsense.

    From "Volcanoes and Society" published the University of Michigan:

    "Carbon dioxide is one of the main causes of the Greenhouse effect, but there are not significant amounts for the carbon dioxide emitted from volcanic eruptions to contribute to the Greenhouse effect. Humanity is responsible for emitting 110 billion tons of carbon dioxide each year, while volcanoes only contribute 10 billion tons".

    So sure, we know green house gasses warm the planet and that pollution is bad on a local level, but if you think the small amount of damage mankind has done to the planet is going to raise global temperatures even by 2 degrees every hundred years, then your ego is about the size of most of the politicians baking the idea.

    Pollution is bad globally. The CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has risen more more than 30% in the past couple of centuries, and that is due to us, not volcanoes. This increase is getting much faster. Your '2 degrees every hundred years' could well be an underestimate.

  52. Re:Fuck you, you fucking fuck bag by GraemeDonaldson · · Score: 2, Funny

    C'mon Dad, how many times do I need to ask you to stay off the internet when you're drunk?

    --
    I think, therefore I am. I think?
  53. Kilimanjaro by Fished · · Score: 2, Informative
    Actually we are in the warmest periode in 10 000 years it seems, since the ice on Kilimanjaro for instance has not been as reduced as it now for the last 10 000 years. It is true that when the dinosaures roamed, Svalbard which is north of Iceland, was inhabitated by creates that needed warm weather. But that is millions of years ago.
    Actually, the evidence suggests that the lack of ice on Kilmanjaro has less to do with global warming and more to do with deforestation--because the forests at the base of Kilmanjaro have been cut down, the air blowing up the mountain is dryer, leading to a receeding in the ice pack.

    This is one of the things that frustrates me about "climate change"--all evidence is unritically adopted to support the theory. The change in terminology, from "global warming" to "climate change" is itself a shift designed to support exactly this sort of pseudo-scientific scullduggery.

    --
    "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
  54. Re: Greenland by UCFFool · · Score: 2, Informative
    Around the year 1000 for example, it was much warmer than today. There's a reason why "Greenland" is called that: it had thawed and the Vikings could colonize and farm it.

    Then it cooled off some time later, and the colony was all but abandoned.

    I think you need to familiarize yourself with Viking history and Greenland a bit more, probably through Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared Diamond.

    Greenland has a lot of lushness on the shoreline, but has always had harsh ice areas inland, with pockets that could almost be compared to an oasis in desert. Vikings farming and herding, mostly by clear cutting, let the very light soil be carried off by the wind as it originally would (volcanic activity outputs very light and nutrient rich particles). Overgrowth trapped that soil... clearing it for farming allowed it to be swept away...

    Not going into excesive detail, because there are other factors, but it wasn't Climate Change that solely ended Viking societies in Greenland.
    --
    "The more pity, that fools may not speak wisely what wise men do foolishly" - Touchstone,Shakespeare's "As You Like It"
  55. Re:Posting from the People's Republic of Fantasia by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For some reason, I'm getting an image of a charred barren hillside a few miles from the collector.

    That was examined in considerable detail a few decades ago, with an eye to preventing exactly that scenario (along with things like microwave-cooked birds falling out of the sky ready to eat). A fine solution was found:

    First: Pick a frequency that, unlike the band used in microwave ovens, is NOT readily absorbed by the water composing most obstructions or potentially damagable natural structures (clouds, birds, cows, plants) or by other materials found in lifeforms. (There are some fine bands for this in the milimeter wavelengths.)

    Second: Put up a "rectenna" site (antennas with microwave semiconductors - "Crystal sets of Inconcevable Power" to quote a pardoy of Doc Smith). This covers tens or hundreds of acres, and catches essentially all of the energy while letting most of the sunlight through. (You can graze cattle under it if it's not at Fort Stinkin' Desert - and even there it won't bother the lifeforms beneath it once the constructin is done.) Even if the beam were pure heat it would only be a large-single-digit multiple of the amount of sunlight shining on the area on a clear day, and it's nearly all caught by the rectenna.

    Third: Transmit a "pilot carrier" from an antenna in the middle of the array to synchronize the transmitters spread out across the broad structure of your solar collectors (or across a number of them).

    The result is a "synthetic aperture" antenna of large size, tightly focussing the return power on the receiving rectenna site. If the pilot signal is lost the beam immediately defocusses - within milliseconds - as the syncronization is lost, with most of the energy missing the entire planet and the rest being orders of magnitude weaker than a distant radar site. (Ditto for the energy from an individual transmitter that loses sync - it stops being combined with the rest of the beam and turns into a much smaller microwave beacon.)

    From synchronous orbit the earth is a small fraction of the visible sky, and any target on it is not visible to the naked eye. If the energy from the beam were all visible light and defocussed you'd have a hard time spotting it in daylight.

    You could do the same pilot beam hack with laser light. But why bother? Lasers are less efficient, more more would be absorbed by the atmosphere, and less converted to useful power at the output. Even with the tech available in the '70s you could get 85% or better from DC in at the satellites to power to the grid on Earth.

    Construction costs would be comparable to those of an earthbound plant. Then fuel is free for the life of the plant and there's no waste to dump (except the plant itself if you ever decommission it, or any burned-out parts).

    Semiconductors on the ground. Vacuum transmitting tubes in orbit. (Vacuum tubes are EASY in orbit, and very efficient. B-) )

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way