Google Invests in Power-Line Broadband

fsterman writes "ZDNet reports that Current Communications Group has received investment money from Google, Hearst, and Goldman Sachs for their internet over broadband ventures. The Wall Street Journal reports that the three companies invested roughly $100 million in the start-up. Current Communications and Cinergy Broadband said they will create one joint venture to bundle broadband and voice services for Cinergy's 1.5 million customers. Current also has plans to use the new investment money to expand its broadband over power line deployments in the U.S. and overseas."

Comments

Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

That gets me electrified!

Re:Wow

[nighthawk127127]

Shocking, isn't it?

Whew!

[lucabrasi999]

I was getting worried. It was already past noon local time and I hadn't seen a /. submission on Google.

Re:Whew!

[Rei]

You had me worried. The article had been up for two minutes, and we hadn't yet had a slashdot-metapost.

Re:Whew!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your mention of metaposts reminded me of this posts meta jokes :D

Re:Whew!

[Anonymous Coward]

You had me worried. The article had been up for two minutes, and we hadn't yet had a slashdot-metapost-metapost.

Re:Whew!

[That's Unpossible!]

I think the thing that is more annoying to me is that I can easily filter out Google stories if I didn't want to read them, yet I have no way of filtering out the inevitable "Too many Google stories" comments that flood Google stories.

SHUT UP ALREADY AND FILTER OUT THE GOOGLE TOPIC IF YOU ARE SICK OF IT!

Re:Whew!

[telecsan]

"SHUT UP ALREADY AND FILTER OUT THE GOOGLE TOPIC IF YOU ARE SICK OF IT!"

But...but...but this is /.. I have to read every single story and find the dupes so that I can fr1st p0ts about how much it sucks.

Re:Whew!

[appavi]

You had me worried. The article had been up for more than 3 hours and no dupes till now

Re:Whew!

[narsiman]

Yup. Google is the Transmeta of 2005 for Slashdot. Pray it doesnt meet a similar fate.

Re:Whew!

[the way, what're you]

You had me worried. The article had been up for two minutes, and we hadn't yet had a slashdot-metapost.

You had me at "had"

Re:Whew!

[nytmare]

How about if you explain how to do this. When I look in Slashdot prefs I only see filters for general categories, NOT for specific categories.

Re:Whew!

[That's Unpossible!]

Hmmm, I just checked the preferences page and I do see what you mean, they apparantly have taken that feature away (or hidden it pretty well) for some reason (probably performance reasons). You used to be able to select topics to ignore.

I thought I read...

[MobileMrX]

... in a recent article that there was a lot of trouble implementing broadband over power lines. I guess if Google is going to invest in it, the technical problems must have been exaggerated. After all, Google can do no wrong. =)

Why?

[Rei]

I thought that internet-over-power lines was pretty much a dead concept - not simply due to the fact that you had to largely redo your power infrastructure anyways so that it doesn't filter out your data, but because by the very nature of modulating a signal on a high power wire, you're building the world's largest radio transmitter network, and flooding everything with radio interference.

Re:Why?

[MightyMartian]

I can't see it ever happening. It would knock out emergency bands, and pretty much fsck up commercial radio. It was an idea that should have been abandoned years ago.

Re:Why?

[AKAImBatman]

My first response to this article was a quote from P.T. Barnum:

"There's a sucker born every minute!"

Now there may be some breakthrough that I'm unaware of, but it strikes me that someone is probably selling a bridge to Google on this one. Goldman Sachs I can understand (speculation and all), but Google? My only guess is that they may be hedging their bets "just in case".

Re:Why?

[LodCrappo]

When will people quit whining about RF interference from powerline broadband? Who cares. RF is a dead technology that noone born in this century still finds cool. Radio is dead dead dead. I say fsck any and all wavelengths unless they're using em to bring me faster internet. All you hams should get a computer and learn to use email instead of tieing up valuable spectrum with your silly talking. If you really want to you can still use morse code over IP. Screw the radio, screw broadcast TV, screw emergency services. They should all be using broadband.

Re:Why?

[AnObfuscator]

I thought that internet-over-power lines was pretty much a dead concept - not simply due to the fact that you had to largely redo your power infrastructure anyways so that it doesn't filter out your data, but because by the very nature of modulating a signal on a high power wire, you're building the world's largest radio transmitter network, and flooding everything with radio interference.

Why can't they can't just put a shield around the power wires, then ground the shield (a la coax)? shouldn't the Faraday Cage eliminate the radio waves?

Or is it that the cost of shielding powerlines is prohibative?

Re:Why?

[Alex P Keaton in da]

This article did give me quite a jolt- I almost posted as an AC.... What is the current plan? Will there be a charge for this service?
In all seriousness: WiFi will kill this in my opinion It seems to me we will end up with wifi being broadcast like AM radio, blanketing everything- wires will not be needed.
I will say that when I told people that I had read a few years ago the fed gov't could pick up data from your computer when it was plugged in through the data bleed over the power line, people thought I should have a tinfoil hat...
I have one more dumb question- the infastructure where I am is buied and not bad- my parents live in an old suburb with ca 1924 power lines- not buried. Even if the new power lines are all buried, my question is this- I lose power quite a bit, I rarely (never) lose phone service, and have only lost my cable access (I have cable internet) only once in the past year. As the internet becomes more important (there have been times where a half hour w/out internet at home could have caused me huge inconvenience) shouldn't we focus on more reliable transmission methods? And even if we all had little direct tv type dishes to get internet, wouldn't that be soooo much cheaper than wires?

Re:Why?

[jarich]

First, there is a huge existing infrastructure. The existing power lines go everywhere.

Second, coupled with voice over IP, this puts Google (potentially) in the ISP business and the telecom business.

Lastly, this would catapult Google from the tenuous position of search engine king (just like Yahoo used to be) and into the dominant ISP, teleco, search engine, etc company.

In other words, AOL, Microsoft and Ma Bell all rolled into one!

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the article, it's actually "internet over broadband". If they can't do internet over broadband, they can always steal from Comcrap/TimePorner/VerizonDuhSL/etc.

Solid business model actually ;-)

Re:Why?

[MightyMartian]

And when the firetrucks and ambulances can't communicate, I hope you enjoy your first heart attack or house fire.

Re:Why?

[Rei]

The whole point of broadband over power lines is to make use of existing infrastructure. If you're going to make all new infrastructure, you might as well make it something designed to carry large amounts of data, like fiber bundles.

Re:Why?

[Geshiggity]

I wouldn't worry so much about it knocking out other forms of communications as much as I would worry about other communications knocking _it_ out. Power lines are extremely susceptible to electromagnetic interference (EMI). Also, thermal noise may be an issue at transformers. There will just need to be some good signal processing to make this work.

The airwaves are already ridiculously cluttered, which is why the FCC licenses frequency bands and regulates the power allowed to be transmitted on those frequencies. I don't see the radiated power being an issue.

Re:Why?

[Iriel]

While I can certainly understand those complications, one would assume that there would be some way to circumvent or remedy the radio signal issue. Although here's some fun food for thought:

We're pretty long overdue for a power grid restructuring. Does anyone remember that nearly week long blackout in upper New York, eastern Pennsylvania and surrounding areas a few summers back? I certainly do (due to proximity of effects). A major reason that a lot of our blackouts in America can be so crippling is because our lack of any truly cohesive power grid that would allow surrounding plants to pick up the slack in a more efficient manner. Granted, it would be expensive and time consuming, but I think it could pay off.

As long as we could use the upgrade, why not add broadband onto to too? ;)

Re:Why?

[Spectre]

RF is a dead technology that noone born in this century still finds cool.

Since when are we going to let a bunch of 4-year-olds decide what is cool?

Re:Why?

[MightyMartian]

I'll wager that, for the cost of shielding (if that works at all), you could probably bring fiber to the door, or, for much cheaper, set up WiFi networks on proven technology that at least has the benefit of being constrained to small, discrete parts of the spectrum.

Re:Why?

[Enigma_Man]

If you're going to go through all that expense, why not use something that's designed for data in the first place, like fiber. You can cram a lot more bandwidth down a fiber connection than you can a copper one.

-Jesse

Re:Why?

[LodCrappo]

was hoping that would be a clue as to how sarcastic/asinine/goofy I was trying to be :)

Re:Why?

[Aggrazel]

"noone born in this century still finds cool"

So you're saying we should base our opinions on what 4 year olds like?

In that case, I think we should use magic pinwheels to distrubute data like the teletubbies do, cause thats what most people born in this century like.

Re:Why?

[DeathFlame]

Frequent Power Outages = Frequent internet dissruption, due to the fact you kind of need your computer and modem to have power too.

Pluse if the power outage is wide, routers and such in your area will be off too.

So you can't say that the powerline is less reliable than your internet since power = internet in 99% of cases anyways.

Re:Why?

[Ravatar]

The power company in my city, Ameren, is testing BPL, and the results thus far seem promising. AFAIK, no restructuring had to be done to facilitate the use of BPL.

Re:Why?

[garcia]

From this article:

While BPL has the potential to serve 13 million U.S. households in the next three to five years, interference problems and a reluctance from many electric companies to offer new services may slow its development, said Barry Goodstadt, vice president at market research firm Harris Interactive Inc.

13 million homes are a "potential" in 3 to 5 years. Comcast has 21.5 million "potential" subscribers right now. I have a feeling that telcos have several million more "potential" subscribers... Yet I don't see telcos rushing out to give competive DSL and I certainly don't see Comcast rushing out to give HSD service to every end of their market.

You think that this technology is going to be any different? I don't.

Re:Why?

[musikit]

can we not put google together in the same sentence with AOL, MS and AT&T/bell labs?

google...
1. does not have slow crappy service (AOL)
2. goes through some form of beta test before releasing their software (MS)
3. never has increased prices to customers since their gain as the #1 search engine (AT&T)

Re:Why?

[Nos.]

Remember though, you're little 18" dish is receive only. Up in Canada, Bell Express Vu offers internet over satellite. You still have to dial in though. It works by using your dial up connection to do the requests, and you're satellite gets the receive. There's also the issue of latency with satellite based internet. You won't find online gamers moving to satellite.

The most promising thing I've seen is WiMax (yes, I do run a site about WiMax). You get high frequency signals in a licensed spectrum which means no interferance. A wide coverage from a base station without the need for line of sight. Its able to do high speeds (70MB/s). Intel already has a consumer grade chip available. There's lots of places around the world that are running trials on it right now. My only current worries are how good is the range in an actualy setup in a metropolitan area, and how fast of a connection can we really expect?

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

And you are qualified to render such opinions... how? A quick Google search will tell you all you need to know about exactly how much power is radiated when you put out such a wide frequency range over the biggest antenna you've ever seen.

This technology is expensive and disruptive in the wrong ways. Let it die, and funnel the money into something that actually works, and better at that.

Re:Why?

[AB3A]

It's prohibitive. Ignore the costs of shielding the cable for a moment (though they're technically difficult and hardly insignificant). Consider just the cost of stringing up new wire EVERYWHERE.

In effect you'd have to do almost as much work as it took to build the grid in the first place.

The whole technology behind BPL was flawed to begin with. I'm surpised anyone a Google thinks it's worth their money.

Re:Why?

[Iriel]

While a fiber infrastructure and the bandwidth it allows makes me all creamy, what happens to power lines? Can you somehow merge the two, replace the latter with a modded former? The argument for having power line broadband is kind of like why people like having their internet, phone and cable bill in one envelope from one company. They want to simplify things by not adding another set of wires in your home, so to speak.

However, the greatest fear I have for power line broadband is what happens when your line gets severed. Even underground power lines can be damaged, and while that happens less often, they take longer to be repaired. If you get hit by a blackout, you've got no power, no internet, and if you use VoIP, no phone. That hurts.

Re:Why?

[Jeffrey Baker]

So ... you don't have a cell phone? No Wi-Fi?

Re:Why?

[double-oh three]

Perhaps it would do you good to realize that when you say RF you also mean all Wifi, all Bluetooth, and that RF being thrown off from a high-power line could possibly knock out nearby electronics.

My guess is that they're already dealing with some of these problems, but even then I would wonder how good for your electronics could it be that part of the constant flow of energy fluctuates a bit.

Re:Why?

[microwave_EE]

I concur, let it die.
Even if the power lines are susceptible to EM interference, one must remember that antennas are reciprocal: if they receive well, they'll transmit well.
It is really stupid to not consider the possibility of radiation with a transmission-line system anything like our 3-phase power lines. Not only are power-lines poor candidates for RF transmission, but they also have many (as in at every pole) slight bends. Any time you bend your transmission line without very carefully controlling the design, you will have some radiation. With how many millions of power poles there are out there, you can bet that there will be a large increase in the background noise levels for normal RF applications.

Re:Why?

[Rei]

If power lines get replaced by anything, it's not going to be net-friendly. It'd probably be something like superconducting lines (either room-temperature if such get developed, or highly cooled otherwise). Power and networking have different requirements; networking is about carrying rapidly changing, easy to switch, discrete signals. Power is about shoving as many electrons into as small of a wire as you can.

Re:Why?

[microwave_EE]

Why?
Putting the shield close enough to let the line work well as an RF transmission line is gonna cause some serious issues with most materials that are used as dielectrics. The high voltages (14kV or higher) would rapidly reduce the nominal lifespane of the teflon or whatever dielectric material was chosen.
And don't even start with air-spacing the grounding-shield. With the range of conditions out there in the wild... That's sudden-fusing-of-the powerline-to-ground waiting to happen.

Re:Why?

[ozymyx]

UM.I live in Cincinnati and had this service from Cinergy for months. And it works *really* well. I only dropped it because the cable co gave me a better deal for cable/internet et al. It's a reality.

Re:Why?

[Booker C. Bense]

Is it really IP over AC power or is it the power company as your
ISP? The first doesn't make a lot of sense, but the second does
as they already have the right of ways and infrastructure.

Of the 3 wires to your house, power, cable tv and phone
only one has enough power to run other stuff. Like microwave
relay links and wireless access points. If wireless is really
the future, only the power company has all the existing
infrastructure in place already to make it happen.

The power companies have been trying to figure out how
to get in the ISP game since at least the early 90's. While
I don't think IP over AC is the answer, a WAP on every
transformer might be.

_ Booker C. Bense

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

and screw you too. While the rest of the world will get fiber to their doorstep and megabit/sec wireless everywhere. You will get 128Kbps or less over your fsck'd power line. Lucky you. Go for it buddy. It'll be great.

Re:Why?

[moultano]

Um, it's already happening . . . My mom is using their service. She likes it.

Re:Why?

[Geshiggity]

Change the carrier frequency out of the VHF range and the interference is not an issue. It is not the fact that it is radiating that is the problem, it is the fact that it is in the middle of an already cluttered band. I can't imagine the FCC letting this one go by anyway (which was my point in the above post). A fix would be to change the carrier frequency, which is easy in theory. However, as you said, power lines are far from good transmission lines, so higher frequency carriers may be out of the question.

Also, I doubt that the bends in the poles are as significant a discontinuity as the impedance differences, taps, transformers, and the like. I think more of an issue than radiation would be coupling of energy off the power lines themselves. Radiated power is going to occur no matter what they do with BPL and I'm sure they knew that. However, there are many bigger signal integrity issues than the radiated power (i.e. actually transmission of a usable signal).

Re:Why?

[KavanaghNY]

The radio interference issue has been mitigated since the first large scale deployment in Manchester, England encountered it. The FCC has been keeping an eye on US BPL providers and is ready to address any interference violations. It looks like the North American providers have resolved that problem before the recent deployments in Ontario, Ohio and Virginia.

BPL Technology & Business Analysis

Re:Why?

[scoove]

All you hams should get a computer and learn to use email instead of tieing up valuable spectrum with your silly talking.

Normally it isn't prudent to respond to humor masqueraded as flamebait, but I thought I'd add some perspective for those who might be curious about the reality of such criticisms. Here are a few thoughts:

Many of the carrier network CCIEs I work with are "hams" - licensed amateur radio operators. I'm only a lowly CCIP in process (actually with a CISSP and CISA, with a management/finance background, worked with Linux since Linus had it on two floppies (ala "pre distribution"), build a mean kernel and program in Python). I'm a general license ham and work with microwave communications over MPLS networks daily.

There is considerable innovation done in modulation schemes, such as PSK, which increasingly gets integrated in the commercial wireless broadband world. I've constructed IPv6 over mesh protocol networks in amateur frequencies, and the best thing about the extensive range of amateur bands is that there's certain to be one for your open source project. One of my projects that needs more attention is my Python software repeater that controls a Piexx.com Motorola VHF-L, VHF-H or UHF radio from Linux.

Amateur radio is very much open source radio, where broadband over powerline is closed source. If you're interested in open source and radiofrequency, amateur radio is where you go to get the open tools to experiment. Care to understand what really is happening in your 802.11? The theory is all contained in amateur radio. You'd be shocked how much you learn when you compile in AX.25 into your kernel, build the tools, and construct a whopping 56 kbps network on UHF (or even better, 1200 on some old Kantronics TNCs). You can keep up with Ethereal on a saturated network at those speeds, and suddenly basic IP and lower layer fundamentals click. Some of the best wireless security people I've met are hams. Just as a real kernel hacker is a better OS security person, a knowledgable ham is going to beat a "user" of 802.11 any day (anyone who claims to be a wireless security expert that simply knows how to click on an icon in NetStumbler is a joke).

The BPL initiatives are unfortunately highly destructive to a very wide band of RF - not just HF. Low VHF frequencies are seriously degraded as well. BPL is a property grab no different than abusive software patents. It is theft of a third of the public radiofrequency commons for no reason other than corporate profit.

The best analogy I can give a non-radio person on BPL is to imagine if Microsoft Longhorn would cause a 60% to 70% consumption in IP networks by having uncontrolled, sustained blasts of ICMP, TCP and UDP traffic. Microsoft's explanation that this just "had to happen because there is a demand for Longhorn" wouldn't pass with the rest of us who know there are better solutions. Forcing it if it doesn't fix is never a good approach.

BPL suffers problems due to RF theory, not implementation. Just as I had to work around 1-2 second latencies in international satellite voice network engineering (no "negative latency inducer" could bail me out), transmission and distribution power systems are designed to radiate energy based on the RF injected (hence the 60 Hz hum one often hears). They are big antennas, but fortunately most electronics has worked around the awareness that 60 Hz is noisy and blankets the environment. Now induce HF to VHF and you've destroyed RF (and we're not factoring for harmonics and other higher band interference which is certain to occur).

Incidentally, regarding this amusing comment:

If you really want to you can still use morse code over IP. . Screw the radio, screw broadcast TV, screw emergency services. They should all be using broadband.

Someone needs to learn the OSI model. He might be surprised to learn that his IP is riding over VHF, HF, or another frequency blasted by BPL. Our weather network in western Iowa uses mobile IP (IPv4oAX25) on lower VHF frequencies to monitor storms for the National Weather Service. Given BPL interference, you might be well served telling people they just have to die for their BPL since emergency service and amateur spectrum isn't important.

Re:Why?

[microwave_EE]

True, they could choose a carrier frequency that's less obtrusive. The downside is that the power lines (unless I've missed a critical discussion regarding massively altering the power lines themselves) will look more and more like inductors at higher frequencies, thus increasing the T-L's impedance, and screwing with all the matching.
It's not that any one particular bend would radiate greatly, but rather that even a small series of them is going to start looking like a much more ominous array of antennas. Perhaps call it a traveling-wave antenna... or a phased-array of small transmitters. Either way, it'll still contribute both background noise and interference around the carrier frequency.

Re:Why?

[Momoru]

>>1. does not have slow crappy service (AOL)

Google can get pretty slow sometimes... and Google Earth was slow as hell before they stopped allowing new downloads. Crappy is certainly a relative term...I think Google's interface is somewhat crappy (If i want to convert a currency, find a public domain book, or get movie times i have to type a certain keyword of search phrases to convert, instead of just clicking a button?? A lot of their cool search features are more like easter eggs then features....)

>>2. goes through some form of beta test before releasing their software (MS)

LOL! Google just sends their stuff right on out with the word "beta" on it....they almost do no beta testing before "releasing" a product. Microsoft meanwhile does so much beta testing its ridculous...Visual Studio 2005 has been in beta for like two years. And before i get the inevitible flood of "Gmail, froogle, etc are beta dood!!!!". A) MS doesnt have the luxury of being able to roll out fixes every day or hour like Google does, once the software ships, people are stuck with it for the most part, so they require much more testing. b) Gmail, froogle etc are released as far as i'm concerned because Google is selling its product to customers based on these services (ads in gmail, links on froogle)

>>3. never has increased prices to customers since their gain as the #1 search engine (AT&T)

Actually they have...the more people that want to advertise on google with my keyword, the more it will cost me. Google doesnt get cheaper as it gets more popular as with most products...it gets more expensive.

Re:Why?

[cosmic_0x526179]

Because nearly 100% of the households in North America have electric power feeds. There are many places where there is no broadband or cable (like the rural spot I live in). The baby bell has shown no interest in making broadband available. Perhaps the rural electric coop would love to make a few extra bucks off the complacency of the ILEC. Thats why.

Re:Why?

[timtwobuck]

FYI - I am an Electrical Engineer, working at a power company that is currently investigating this technology...

With that being said, the modification of the power system for use in a smaller area is very minimal depending on the type of installation. There are various different ways that technologies are going at the problem of getting the data from the power-line to the customer.

To get it in the vicinity of the customer, they put a modem, or something equivalent, at the circuit exit of the substation which would then in burn be connected to the internet via fiber or some other sort of heavy data-tranismission protocol.

The signal is then sent down the line and piped into a customers house one of many ways, one being a wireless connection from the pole-top to their house. Others being a coupling device transfers the signal from the several thousand volt (up to 14kV) to the 120V/240V wire into your home....from there you can plug a modem into a power outlet, and voila...

Re:Why?

[MightyMartian]

Good for her. If it causes problems for emergency bands and other legitimate operators, your mom's Internet connection seems of little importance. There are other ways to supply broadband.

Re:Why?

[LodCrappo]

For the record, I come from a family of hams (father, uncles, etc) and I have great respect for what they do and their right to do it. Our family station wagon had a bumper sticker which read "Hams do it with frequency" (which I did not understand at the time). I tried to make sure that every single sentence in my post would be unbelievably wrong to anyone with half a clue.. I am truly saddened to find that someone actually modded it informative and insightful... wtf?? I've rarely been accused of being informative or insightful even when I wasn't being a jackhole. Sigh..

Re:Why?

[scoove]

While I can certainly understand those complications, one would assume that there would be some way to circumvent or remedy the radio signal issue.

The reason is physics. I mentioned in a previous post that the reason international satellite communications is terrible for data is that the limitation of the speed of light (oversimplification) causes several seconds of latency, which many protocols do not like.

Thanks to physics, unshielded long transmission wires happen to make great antennas (ever notice the hum from them, especially when you drive underneath? When you realize that's only from one frequency being put into the wire, and BPL would put in millions, you might get the picture). We actually use unshielded long-wires for antennas at field day all the time - wonderful antennas. Just tune them so they resonate better at the desired frequency and go. I had a blast on 160 meters (~1.8 MHz) last year using a run of electric fence wire about a football field long.

So here, the physics of a long, unshielded wire being a classic definition of an antenna, is the problem. It's not a matter of tweaking or changing the law of physics. This is why you see the BPL industry spending its money on attorneys and lobbyists, not scientists and engineers. They know that "possession is 9/10ths" and once they've got BPL authorized, it is too late for the rest of us. Did you ever think to ask, if BPL could be made quiet and affordable, why it isn't out there already?

As long as we could use the upgrade, why not add broadband onto to too?

Here it becomes a financial issue. Let me ask, since BPL won't give you speeds anywhere near what WiMax and FTTP (fiber to the premises) will, why not just give everyone buried fiber? In high-density metropolitan areas, it's only about $5000 per customer to implement (not including maintenance, service, switching or end-user equipment). Since we really need an ROI within two years to justify the investment (with a 25% hurdle to please the money people on this speculative venture), we need to charge:

$300 per month for your fiber termination
plus your usual broadband, phone and television programming fees. About $425 per month would be appropriate.

Interestingly, most consumers don't wish to spend $425 per month, so even in larger metros, FTTP is a very speculative venture. Rural FTTP is simply insane. The reason I mention FTTP is that many power providers already have fiber optic systems embedded in their top groundwire (called FOGwire - Fiber Over Ground). They use it to manage their transmission network. It's just absurdly expensive to deliver fiber to the residence or business - well beyond what anyone would pay.

Re:Why?

[microwave_EE]

I, for one, found your post quite amusing. It was so wrong that it had to be either sad or funny.

Re:Why?

[elrous0]

Radio is dead dead dead.

Tell that to the 911 dispatcher when a burgler sets your house on fire and the dispatcher can't get hold of any policemen or firemen because you just HAD to have your broadband over your power line.

Face it, if you support broadband over power lines, the terrorists win.

-Eric

Re:Why?

[DF5JT]

I'd like to use this text as reference whenever there is a discussion about hams being innovative and useful and their frequencey spectrum needs to be protected. Can you get in touch with me?

Re:Why?

[bobcat7677]

Yep, I'll keep my internet separate from my power lines for now thank you very much. Since my ISP/phone company has generators that keep the DSL going when the power is out, I can continue to have internet when the power lines are severed as long as my router and DSL modem still have power (an UPS with a big battery keeps me going). Around here we have alot of trees and most of the high voltage wire is above ground. The phone lines are all buried and rarely have issues. I dumped my POTS number and rely on VOIP now so my asterisk server is on my UPS too. Having all your eggs in one basket is really convienient untill that basket gets knocked around;)

Further, if the low voltage (data) services are integrated into the high voltage services things could get sticky. I for one would rather not have to call out a licensed electrician at $$$/hr to deal with some internet wiring issue.

Finally, I just have to observe that there have been internet-over-powerline test deployments in markets all over the US. Some of them several years old now. But none of the outfits testing this technology have even hinted at going to a wide deployment. I think some of the programs were just shut down and abandoned. I don't know the details of what their reasons were for abandoning the idea, but I would guess it is a combination of users like me not accepting the technology, and the danger of being outlawed by the FCC if things get nasty with interference.

Re:Why?

[moultano]

Naturally, I was just saying that your "I can't see it happening" assertion was a little after the fact.

Re:Why?

[fatboy]

Yet I don't see telcos rushing out to give competive DSL and I certainly don't see Comcast rushing out to give HSD service to every end of their market.

You think that this technology is going to be any different? I don't.

If you mean less reliable and slower, I believe it will be different. :P

Re:Why?

[dodobh]

Power companies already have right of way. They can just string fibre along the copper. The local power company is doing that here.

Re:Why?

[jonbrewer]

work with microwave communications over MPLS networks daily

Wouldn't it be easier to work with MPLS over microwave networks?

Someone needs to learn the OSI model.

Indeed. ;-)

Re:Why?

[gmack]

If it really matters theres UPS and generators.. Up here for a few thousand you can get a very affordable propane or nautral gas backup home generator that gets wired into your home and kicks in when your main power goes down.

Re:Why?

[suwain_2]

RF is a dead technology

I'm not sure if you're trolling or trying to be funny, but do you have any clue how idiotic a statement this is? A few examples:

• WiFi
• Cell phones
• Satellite TV
• "Conventional" over-the-air TV
• AM, FM, XM radio

I'd go on, but I don't think it's necessary.

Re:Why?

[suwain_2]

screw emergency services. They should all be using broadband.

And when broadband goes down?

Re:Why?

[quarkscat]

Obviously, Google has far more money than they really know what to do with. A far better option in regards to the power lines is to use that right-of-way to run fiber optic, especially FTTP.
If Google is really intent upon pissing money away, I could use a $20 Million USD low interest VC loan.

BPL offers none of the advantages of fiber optic (like low emmissions and high speed), and all of the disadvantages of a 2.4 GHz home wireless phone (interference with WiFi and other RF services). I am not saying that it could not be done. What I am saying is that with everything we already know about BPL (like low bandwidth, serious cross-talk, and RF interference with other services), it should not be done.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

You left out the part about being a thieving con artist.

Re:Why?

[DeathFlame]

Which won't help when the cable companies router that's near your house loses power too...

Re:Why?

[gmack]

Strangely enough I've been online during a power out. ADSL + a cheap UPS left me online for 20 minutes after the power died.

Would have been easier if it hadn't been night and pitched black but thankfully I can touch type.

Re:Why?

[thogard]

The 13 mil number mostly comes from people that are too far from phone exchanges. The thing is they will also be too far down the line to get any use from BPL.

If BPL turns out to be evil, will that conflict with googles basic principle?

Re:Why?

[Woody77]

The telephone bundles are impressively strong cables, power lines are under a lot of stress, and pulled much tighter (because they can't sag, because they're usually running at 20KV or so, and need to be kept about 10' from everything).

When a tree falls over, and crushes all the lines to the ground, the power lines snap, the telephone lines get striped from the nearest pole, but are probably holding up the tree. They're fantasticly strong.

Cable is usually ran under the telephone bundles, and as it's a big coax network, a lot easier to repair if it does get damaged (one wire vs. 1000s).

I'm a volunteer FF, so I see this a lot in the winter here in the Santa Cruz Mtns. Trees fall over in the storms, we close the road and wait for PG&E, and the telephone lines, holding up the fallen tree, are fine.

Re:Why?

[Woody77]

Most people that live in a frequent power outage area (like me), have these nifty devices called generators, or solar arrays and batteries.

Makes weathering out a winter storm that's dropped 400 trees in the county on the power lines a lot easier to tolerate.

Re:Why?

[scoove]

Wouldn't it be easier to work with MPLS over microwave networks?

Um, er, that's the new 802.16oMPLS protocol. Part of the WiMax spec. LOL. Must have tipped the OSI box over this morning and didn't notice. Damn network's been running backwards ever since. Thx!

*scoove*

Re:Why?

[sparks]

The FCC have *not* "been keeping an eye" on this at all; on the contrary they have been extremely reluctant to take action against the existing BPL schemes even though they are knowingly and actually interfering with licensed radio users.

Have a look here for some information on the effects to radio amateurs:

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.html

Bear in mind it's not just hams, but also the aviation industry, public safety, the military, and thousands of other licensed HF spectrum users who have now been deemed less important than the political objective of widely available broadband.

Re:Why?

[Dan Farina]

Also some people mod these ways to give out karma points as opposed to the funny modifier, which does not.

Re:Why?

[PetiePooo]

If BPL turns out to be evil, will that conflict with googles basic principle?

As is evident in several preceding posts, in many people's eyes, BPL has already shown itself to be evil. Personally, I am very disappointed that Google is investing in this technology. If I had stock, I'd be voicing my displeasure with their financial acumen by dumping it.

Re:Why?

[kunwon1]

Answers to parent:

1. Radio is used to dispatch Police and Fire personnel to your home if you are getting robbed, or if your home is on fire. This can't be done over the internet or over phone systems because they aren't reliable enough. There is almost nothing short of a nuclear blast that can stop you from using your radio.

2. Radio provides two-way communications in areas where cell phone coverage is non-existant. (i.e., camping trips, mountainous areas, etc. If you select your radio properly, even a handheld tranceiver can give you a bare minimum of two miles of range (5 watt tranceiver under bad geographical conditions) or even up to 25 miles under optimum conditions. And that's for -handheld- radios. HF transceivers (3,000 to 30,000 kilohertz) can reach around the world, bounce signals off of the moon, and communicate with orbiting satelites or space stations.

3. Oh yeah, cell phones. Those all operate over... guess what? RF! Nextel, for example, operates primarily on the 800 mhz band. A cell phone -is- a radio, a digital, duplexing, low-power radio that communicates with cell towers, which relay the signal into the POTS system.

4. If you think that you can connect to someone around the world, via the internet, without at some point using RF, you're kidding yourself. What, do you think there's a big wire running from the ground up to the satellites? Do you think terrestrial microwave operates by magic?

5. Last, but certainly not least. Cell phones developed from radio, I already said that... there wouldn't be cell phones if there weren't radios, and without RF, cell phones would be nothing. But so would the internet. Packetized data was originally meant for transmission via radio. It was a major advance in the field of RF, reliably transmitting digital data over long ranges using radios. THAT is the technology that eventually evolved into IP.

Do your homework before you knock RF, rookie.

-One of the many very busy RF engineers, amazingly still employed! Gasp!

Re:Why?

[RichardX]

My first response to this article was a quote from P.T. Barnum:

"There's a sucker born every minute!"

Rather ironically, he never actually said that. Make you kind of a sucker for believing that he did. (No insult intended - I thought he had too, until I learned otherwise)

Other famous "never said it"s:
Kirk: "Beam me up scotty"
Holmes: "Elementary, my dear Watson"
Bogart: "Play it again, Sam"

We now return you to your irregularly programmed schedule

Re:Why?

[HPNpilot]

When will people quit whining about RF interference from powerline broadband? Who cares. RF is a dead technology that noone born in this century still finds cool.

I care about RF interference and I am not a ham. When the next hurricane sweeps through town, or the next terrorist attack takes out internet and telephone communications, HF will be there to get the messages through. That is, unless the bands are flooded with noise from BPL, which can carry from areas where the power grid is still up into disaster areas.

Perhaps you will be less selfish when your area gets hit.

Re:Why?

[LodCrappo]

My god... it was a JOKE. Do you not see the "Funny" label next to the title? Have you just not bothered to read the other two comments where I long ago explained it was a joke for the poor saps who didn't catch what I thought were dead giveaways, i.e "noone born in this century", "morse code over IP", "emergency services should be using broadband"....... what more do I have to do, put "hahaha j/k" at the end?? You all have (to some degree) good points, but they are basically wasted in this thread. If someone is too dense to tell I was kidding, they aren't going to understand any argument you're trying to make either. sheeeeesh.

Re:Why?

[bhiestand]

I wouldn't say AM is a good example. The little walkie-talkies all the high school kids say "over and out" on are a much better example of things people actually use. Where have you been living? AM is only used for crappy talk shows and Traffic Info.

Re:Why?

[GodGell]

the 60Hz signal in the AC powerlines is usually "thrown away", few line-powered clocks use it, and that's about it. if the AC frequency can be modulated, that wouldn't render most home appliances useless and would provide a way to transmit data through the powerlines. the problem is that it would be a one-way connection, yet it would be slower than a satellite broadcast, which means it would bring no new advantages at all. you'd still need a phone line to send data back. about the RF interference, the 60Hz signal creates interference already and varying that frequency wouldn't make it more annoying.

Re:Why?

[Bobsledboy]

Whoosh! Hear that? That was the sound of the joke going over your head

Re:Why?

[Deekin_Scalesinger]

This would rule - is there any information that points to the Teletubbies having a vested interest in Google stock?

Anyone know how this works?

[IcyNeko]

Does BB Require power to run (in this case)? If so, if we have blackouts, that would really suck!

Re:Anyone know how this works?

[MrLogic17]

There's only one cable involved. If that one cable is air-gapped (storm, tree, blackout, etc.) so it won't move current, you can probably guess what your bandwidth will be like.

Re:Anyone know how this works?

[bmalnad]

Exactly how do you use any other form of broadband in the middle of a blackout?

Re:Anyone know how this works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Few small extra problems :

Desktops require power.
Your modem requires power.
Your wifi (if using laptop) requires power.

Re:Anyone know how this works?

[Leroy_Brown242]

Your computer doesn't work with the power off anyways, so why do you need the internet?

Re:Anyone know how this works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, See:

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/

(Sorry to the ARRL for the /.ing)

Re:Anyone know how this works?

[frkiii]

1. Generator.

2. DSL :P

Re:Anyone know how this works?

[Com2Kid]

I have a UPS supply.

Power goes off, whatever, I keep on gaming. :)

I have my Computer, Monitor, and Cable Modem plugged into the UPS.

Not Evil?

[cayenne8]

I thought Google pledged to not do anything 'evil'.

Hasn't this tech been show to be damaging to Ham radios? Something that is usually very helpful in times of emergency, when phones and sometimes power is even out?

Re:Not Evil?

[yellowbkpk]

So when the power is out, the IP over PowerLines will go down too, thus enabling them to coordinate their efforts and HAM it up. ...unless it's only a brownout and you're still broadcasting interference on the other side of the street.

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

Don't go there...if you look at the history of Slashdot they're anti-Ham radio for the most part. Their reasoning is why stop progress for something that only 600,000 people in the country do. You know, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

Ham is very useful, but try telling that here. Expect to be flooded with people with these sentiments, and I hope I'm wrong about that.

There is so many other ways to get broadband to even the most remote people that over the powerlines doesn't even need to be. Got a phone line? You should be able to get broadband. If not, do you REALLY think that BB over powerlines will be in your area instead?

Oh well, it will be a major nail in the coffin that was the great and wonderful world of Ham radio. 100 years down the drain.

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

of course if the power is out i dont think you would have to worry about it interfering, right?

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

I see, so how is one going to practice this? Guess keep the equipment and the antennas up and invest 1000s of dollars into a hobby on the off chance that maybe you'll be able to help one day...but until that day it just sits there unused.

Cool...guess you solved it!

Re:Not Evil?

[yellowbkpk]

Can't you just practice over the internet using Skype?

Or maybe the power company will have "practice days" where they turn off the internet for a few hours.

Re:Not Evil?

[Leroy_Brown242]

I think that if the power is out, the broadband over the power lines would likely be out as well. Don't you think?

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

The thing is, this isn't ancient technology. It's still alive today and many people are still doing it.

It's also needs no infrastruture. Nothing can "go down" to where you can't get out to someone else. The net can go down. Cell phones can go buh bye when you go out of signal area (which happens to me even now just driving from Michigan to Illinois...where you would think it would have constant signal).

But this has been going on and on. You personally don't care and why should you, you're not in the hobby so you just see it as ancient technology that should go the way of the horse&buggy.

Re:Not Evil?

[garcia]

Oh well, it will be a major nail in the coffin that was the great and wonderful world of Ham radio. 100 years down the drain.

I respect Ham radio operators. I think that they provide a great service to the community when they are called upon. Problem I have is with your comment that it is a "great and wonderful world"... Ham radio is only "great and wonderful" because the community is small and the technology was never intended for mass consumption.

The FCC has cleared the way for this technology (I don't agree with all their descisions and I haven't decided if I agree w/this one yet) and it's going to happen. Yes, technology needs to move forward and it sucks that older technologies will be infringed upon, but isn't that the entire point?

*IF* there is a possibility that this technology will connect more than 600k people shouldn't it be worth it?

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just heard from my local ARES/RACES group that they are going to start relying on WinLink, which depends on the net for its backbone (and of course only runs on Windows). Apparently an ARRL choice. Dopey choice for emergency communications.

Re:Not Evil?

[BaudKarma]

If the power is out, then there won't be any more interference! Duh!

Re:Not Evil?

[ploss]

There [are] so many other ways to get broadband to even the most remote people that over the powerlines doesn't even need to be.

Yeah. Like satellite.

Why not funnel $100M into putting up a GoogleSat? At least we'd have cooler Google Maps and more conspiracy theories :)

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please explain how you can test and get acquainted with the proper operation of radio equipment while not using it.

Re:Not Evil?

[MightyMartian]

It's not just the HAM operators, it's also the risk to emergency bands. Nothing is worth the risk to the general populace. All for what? So that some power companies can sell Internet?

Re:Not Evil?

[merreborn]

Satelite comes with terrible round trip times, though. I hope you like pings of in the 1000ms range ;)

(The trip out to orbit is around 400ms, and it's a good 400ms back)

Re:Not Evil?

[jeffehobbs]

I kid, I kid, but I agree with you, in spirit, at least. However, I know a lot of people who can't get cable or DSL in their rural MA area that would probably argue that it might be worth the trade.

We're veering off topic here, but speaking of ham radio, This speech by Steve Wozniak at Gnomedex 4.0 talks a bit about his love of ham radio. It's a pleasantly unfocused and fuzzy speech.

~jeff

Re:Not Evil?

[LWATCDR]

I used to think Ham radio was no longer all that useful. Two hurricanes changed my mind. Cells where down. Phone was down. Power was down. BB over power lines seem to be a bad trade off. However if they can make it so that it DOES NOT INTERFERE with the radio bands then I do not have that big of an issue with it. Frankly I would rather have fiber.

Re:Not Evil?

[keraneuology]

Amateur radio is used daily in many public service capacities:

Many, if not most SKYWARN groups use amateur radio to coordinate severe weather verification with the national weather service.

Here in Michigan amateur radios operators are used to verify that the tornado sirens work.

All hospitals are being equipped with shortwave radios for use during states of general emergency. During the big blackout the cell phone networks were a) overloaded then b) dead as the reserve power units ran out of juice.

Amateur operators routinely provide assistance during major events such as bike-a-thons, or the Woodward Dream Cruise

Amateur operators routinely carry traffic to/from disaster-struck areas worldwide. As I type this emergency nets are ready to get information into and out of hurricane stricken areas.

Amateur radio is the original version of the chat room and continues to serve this purpose

Many of the advancements in satellite communication were helped by experimenting amateurs - the original homebrew movement.

Amateur radio continues to serve a valuable purpose and definitely has a place in this world. For those seeking a technical challenge beyond executing a kiddie's scripts I suggest you attempt to pass your license exam and try to make even a single connection via packet or microwave.

Re:Not Evil?

[srhuston]

The problem is (and many people share the same idea and position), yes if the power goes out there will be no interference in that area. However, let's say that BPL were to cover the entire CONUS. Blackout in NYC, no phones no lights no motorcars, and no BPL blocking signals. However, I can't hear squat here in NJ because I still have BPL interference. Granted, the local area's interference is alleviated, but that does no good if anyone that could help can't hear you calling.

After the first few BPL postings here, I've learned that many think "screw hams, I want my broadband". That's fine, people are entitled to their opinion. But as others have also said, I hope that if their area gets BPL and interference from it, they never have to sit and watch their house burn to the foundation because the fire company's dispatch or lowband TAC channels were too noisy for anyone to hear the alarm call go out.

Re:Not Evil?

[Momoru]

I thought Google made a pledge to make Search their primary function? WTF does broadband over powerlines have to do with search?

Re:Not Evil?

[Roland of Gilead]

Hasn't this tech been show to be damaging to Ham radios? Something that is usually very helpful in times of emergency, when phones and sometimes power is even out?

Well... if the power is blacked out, then there will be no broadband via powerlines to cause interference with ham radios. Having said that, I have read conflicting reports on the severity interference to ham signals caused by broadband via powerlines - I don't know what to believe at this point.

Re:Not Evil?

[srhuston]

Not to mention the Hurricane Watch Net, which just activated today because of Dennis's approach

ARRL story, HWN homepage.

Re:Not Evil?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I wonder what the slashdotters would say if BPL interfered with or reduced the range of their WiFi. I'm not saying that it would or could happen, but most people argue from a standpoint of what they see benefits them the most.

Supposedly BPL doesn't interfere as much as some people say it does, I am trying to think of where to dig up that quote by a pro-HAM leader that said this, based on actual experience.

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the power was down, there wouldn't be any BB over power lines to interfere. HAM would work just fine!

Re:Not Evil?

[databyss]

"Hasn't this tech been show to be damaging to Ham radios? Something that is usually very helpful in times of emergency, when phones and sometimes power is even out?"

Not to nit-pick too much, but wouldn't broadband over powerlines not damage ham radios when power is out?

OK, well I guess it was nit picking...

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... if the power is blacked out, then there will be no broadband via powerlines to cause interference with ham radios.

Um, there won't be any ham radios to not interfere with. Nobody is going to maintain a lot of expensive HF equipment, and the skills to use it, that can be used only during power blackouts!

Google has forgotten the face of its (technological) father.

Re:Not Evil?

[jejagua]

Ok, so you are saying Ham operators will invest thousands of dollars in their equipment just so they can get on the air in the rare event of a power outage? That's just plain ridiculous. It's called amateur radio because it takes a lot of training, experimentation, practice and $$$. If they only got to get on the air for a few minutes in a year, trust me, they would cause more interference than you can imagine because they would have no clue what they're doing. The hobby will truly die.

Re:Not Evil?

[cduffy]

I think that if the power is out, the broadband over the power lines would likely be out well.

Right. So you're taking generally useful infrastructure, making it useful only in times of emergencies that kill the power, and further removing the incentive for folks to actually get involved in investing their time and money into that infrastructure. (Who's going to build a nice ham setup if it's only usable when the power's out? Further, what if the power isn't out in the location where the help you're trying to call is located?)

Re:Not Evil?

[tyler_larson]

Hasn't this tech been show to be damaging to Ham radios? Something that is usually very helpful in times of emergency, when phones and sometimes power is even out?

Ham radio? Hell, I'm worried about aircraft radio. You lose that and you've created an emergency.

Re:Not Evil?

[AaronStJ]

Don't go there...if you look at the history of Slashdot they're anti-Ham radio for the most part

I call troll. I don't know which Slashdot your reading. If your take a look at the past articles on broadband over power lines (like this onem the vast majority of people have been for HAM radios, talking about what a bad idea BPL is.

Their reasoning is why stop progress for something that only 600,000 people in the country do.

You forget that HAMs are basically the original geeks. Slashdotters support their fellow geeks, including hams, very much.

You know, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

Right. 'Cause you know how gung-ho we are about taking away people's rights, especially minorities. We hate liberty and love the FCC and large corporations..

Seriously. Come up with a better troll. I can't believe you were modded +5.

Re:Not Evil?

[TheSync]

BPL is most of a risk to weak signal work in the HF bands. But things like SKYWARN are maninly VHF or UHF.

The emergency value of HF is even in question these days with the rapidly dropping cost of satellite communications. I can pick up an Iridium or Inmarsat phone and have a connection right away, no phone patch needed on the remote side. Small uplink dishes now fit into suitcases, providing enough bandwidth for hundreds of phone calls or even video, and will have even more gain with the new Ka-band satellites.

I let my ham license lapse when I stopped using it, replaced with cellphone and Internet.

Re:Not Evil?

[LWATCDR]

No because the interference would also be at the other end. You know the place that still has power and and stuff that they will be sending to the the place without.

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Ham Radios could still be used if there was a blackout. After all, this broadband runs on powerlines ;)

Re:Not Evil?

[staeiou]

Oh well, it will be a major nail in the coffin that was the great and wonderful world of Ham radio. 100 years down the drain.

How sympathetic were you to the cries of the horse buggy enthusiasts when their trails were paved over to create highways? The interstate highway system was the major nail in the coffin that was the great and wonderful world of Ham radio. Over 1000 years down the drain. And do you care? No, because it allows millions of people to quickly get around the country with little investment (comparatively).

The reason that most people are "anti-Ham", as you put it, is because you're the wagon-axle maker crying for government assistance when Ford came out with the Model T. Hell, you're not even making the argument that you need HAM Radios to feed your family, you're making the argument that progress should be stopped because it interferes with your hobby.

And no, there are many places that have phone line service, power, but no broadband access without the aid of a dish (expensive and only one-way) . Just because you can connect at 24kbps through wire that was laid by a New Deal era project doesn't mean you can run DSL through those lines.

Re:Not Evil?

[MenTaLguY]

Not just Ham radio, also potentially emergency, aircraft, and military frequencies.

I'm really rather at a loss to describe how unremittingly STUPID an idea BPL is...

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

... in times of emergency, when phones and sometimes power is even out?

Then Google is out of business too and Ham guys can start to pull their gadgets from the basement (if they will find them).

Re:Not Evil?

[The Lynxpro]

"Don't go there...if you look at the history of Slashdot they're anti-Ham radio for the most part. Their reasoning is why stop progress for something that only 600,000 people in the country do. You know, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.
Ham is very useful, but try telling that here. Expect to be flooded with people with these sentiments, and I hope I'm wrong about that."

If broadband can be delivered to the masses cheaply via the power grid without damaging WIFI and Bluetooth in the process, then by all means kill HAM in the process. I've seen posts in this thread about the *open source* nature of HAM, but giving email and net access to the "less fortune" (or the people who aren't less fortunate but based upon geography are shut out on traditional broadband) is more along the lines of democratic principles than upholding a "primitive" communication system that requires certification and specialized equipment and used by less than 1 million people.

This is similar to the argument that people (and broadcast networks) are making about retaining the analog television spectrum instead of ditching it and adopting digital SD/HD broadcasting. I am not going to cry about that either. Instead, I will buy an HDTV since they are now currently under $900 for a 32" widescreen and smaller.

And in terms of personal opinion, I'd say the BBS/Fidonet is/was cooler than HAM, but in no way am I surrendering my broadband and going back to 56k or less over the phone line as well as saying goodbye to the richness of the net as a whole.

Re:Not Evil?

[scharkalvin]

The ARRL and other Amateur Radio groups have been the most vocal against BPL, but the fact is that it can and will interfere with the AM broadcast band, the low end of the VHF TV broadcast band, Aircraft communications, Military and other users of shortwave, garage door openers, etc. It's a technology that won't allow upgrades in speed, and will proably (in most cases) be no faster than ISDN after all the required notch filters get added.

Some power companies are (gradually) adding fiber optic cables to their overhead lines to carry their own broadband networks and are using WiFi or other short range wireless to deliver the final mile to BPL customers. In other words BPL in name only, actually a 'clean' technology.

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no! On the contrary, I am a Ham geek and I - for one - wellcome the idea!
Imagine a world when everybody uses broadband and a major disaster strucks down the internet, the phone goes silent and the power is cut out. And when the air is clean again, I will pull my old-good-gadgets from the basement, save the world and maybe even find some chick and have a sex!

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe how many fucking idiots are baring their asses with the completely retarded comment "how can power interfere with ham radio if the power is out." Which fucking elementary school did you short bus fucktards drop out of? Jesus H. Christ are you a heaping, steaming pile of stupid fucks!

If the power is out, chances are it's on a local drop or one substation. The huge transmission lines that go between substations or from plants to substations are the ones that will most likely still be up and will continue to broadcast the broadband signals like the gigantic antennas they are. The interference carries for a huge distance because of the frequencies it will use, the power level of the signals, and the outstanding antenna characteristics of power lines. While you're smacking your collective intelligence-free foreheads, jab a fucking ice pick in there just for good measure, dipshits.

Re:Not Evil?

[The Salamander]

Since power was down, wouldn't that imply that BBoPL would not be interfering during the emergency??

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen, brother! If not the dipshits making stupid comments, but bollocks also to the moderators who are marking Insightful the ignorant comments of these stupid, stupid people. These should be marked Troll, Redundant, or Overrated and nothing more. If you mod one of these comments up, you're no better than the microscopic intellects who made the comments. If quality of moderation doesn't get better, we're going to outsource it to Bangalore.

Re:Not Evil?

[sebisor]

If power is out, why worry? :)

Re:Not Evil?

[kg4gyt]

As of June 30, 2005 there were 664,905 licensed HAMs in the United States alone. During the 1980's Mexico city earthquake, HAM radio was the only communication in or out of the entire city. Because one major station was a doctor (Dr. William Brown) that operated out of the American embassy, americans were able to notify their relatives that they were ok. Rather than dismissing HAM radio, why not try to inform people about its importance. And BPL Is not a Need, emergency communications are a Need, no matter how one looks at it.

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

And no, there are many places that have phone line service, power, but no broadband access without the aid of a dish (expensive and only one-way) .

You are a fuckwit.

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Winlink is the coolest over HF. They added the VHF/Inet stuff as an afterthought and ARES groups have jumped on the bandwagon for ecomms using this stuff. Haven't figured out how that happened yet.

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

Sorry, wasn't ment to be a troll, but from my experience here over the years "most" of the people fall on the side of BB over powerlines than do the Hams. Was going on past experience.

You forget that HAMs are basically the original geeks. Slashdotters support their fellow geeks, including hams, very much.

I agree. I started out on Ham before computers...and this was like 1978.

Right. 'Cause you know how gung-ho we are about taking away people's rights, especially minorities. We hate liberty and love the FCC and large corporations..

Calm down there Tex...I was just commenting on what the justification was for some people outside the hobby, didn't say I agreed with it.

Seriously. Come up with a better troll. I can't believe you were modded +5.

Again, wasn't trying to troll.

Re:Not Evil?

[suwain_2]

Their reasoning is why stop progress for something that only 600,000 people in the country do.

That anyone would accuse ham radio of "stopping progress" is preposterous. I actually see Linux and ham radio as very similar.

Hams like to tinker. This "tinkering" has given us a lot of new formats (PSK31 as one recent example), just like Linus's "tinkering" has given us a new OS, or thousands of geeks' tinkering has given us countless new programs.

Plenty of hams do enjoy "old" stuff like Morse code -- just as plenty of us here enjoy getting a CLI up and running on an old 386 salvaged from the garbage. Why not just run Windows XP on a new P4?

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the sort of people that hang around here are the sort of people that should be into ham radio. That, and that ham radio is full of innovation.

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

Thanks for not letting down my expectations that I made.

So kill off Ham...the only communication medium that was going after the Blackout last year...not to mention 9/11 after the cell phone network got jammed and of course the recent Tsunami.

Good deal! Maybe you should also suggest that we just keep our equipment handy...though not being able to actually test it...in case an emergency takes place so we can help out. Until then we should just fuck off, right?

Also, in case you want to take your foot out of your mouth about this "primitive" communication system, I suggest you actually read up on the hobby first.

Re:Not Evil?

[LWATCDR]

As I pointed out no not at all. Odds are pretty good that the receiver will
be someplace that DOES have power. So it would also tend to have BBoPL.
If you look at a FEMA center it is loaded with HF antennas for communications. There is one in Denton, TX. During the recovery phase a lot of traffic was going from Florida to Denton,TX

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Winlink sucks. It's proprietary and it always seems to start up over my voice QSOs. Fortunately, the lids who use it without listening first aren't stupid enough to start shit in the CW subbands.

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

Please, read up more about Amateur Radio before going off like this.

What's the argument that you need broadband to feed your family? BB over powerlines is not progress. If it fucks up other things...including I might add WiFI and ordinary radio (you know, that thing you listen to in your car...or are you one of those myopic induviduals that think "hey, I listen to CD's so I don't want or need radio in my car")

And of course, I could point out that Ham has served in times of crisis as we always have, with little to no thanks from anyone...which isn't what we do it for anyway. Just a way to give back something.

And your analogy is pretty bad. We're not the wagon-axle maker crying for government assistance. We have the spectrum already. It's also a VERY small part of the radio spectrum. A little nitch. And of course, a horse and buggy enthusiast can certainly travel down the highway whenever they want...I see it all the time. They can't travel on the interstates, but the interstates were MADE for cars...it's not like they were taken away from the horse and buggy people to travel on. So go ahead, mount up on your horse and buggy if you want! It's still there, go ahead. Nothing down the drain at all for that hobby.

Also, just because I call Ham a hobby doesn't make it one. The government and the FCC consider it a service. Go look it up. But nah, this is Slashdot...easier to just run off about something you have no clue about!

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if the power goes out Ham will work just fine again, amirite?

Re:Not Evil?

[Chanc_Gorkon]

More then just ham radio.....ANYTHING that has RF involved could be plagued by BPL, but Ham, Police, Fire, AM/FM, and lots of other RF driven things coulld be affected. PLUS, has anyone SEEN a power line? They are UNSHIELDED, never worked on for years in someplaces and are barely capable of carrying power.

The BIG reason that the power companies want this is they want to replace power meters with ones that call home for billing and that would eliminate a bunch of jobs (and create fewer new ones) and save money.

Re:Not Evil?

[The Lynxpro]

"So kill off Ham...the only communication medium that was going after the Blackout last year...not to mention 9/11 after the cell phone network got jammed and of course the recent Tsunami."

Your made a statement, but not a point. Did the Federal Government depend upon your HAM radio to get the word out about 9/11? I'd be willing to bet they did not. Could the Federal Government use your spectrum for emergency and national security concerns? Yes. Does the Federal Government outweigh your right to use radio spectrum to speak to an extremely small number of people around the world that totals less than Vonage's VOIP subscriber base? Yes.

The last time I checked, I did not depend on my news being filtered to me by my neighbor during power outtages. A simple $20 radio and some batteries will suffice. An APC UPS can also power my television so it can receive news during a national crisis during a blackout as well. And my neighbor also does not have a HAM radio...nor does the large number of neighbors of Americans either.

The point is, your right to operate an amateur radio does not outweigh the right of countless other people in this country to afforable high-speed communication of the 21st Century. Broadband is crucial to the economy of our nation and its security as well. HAM radio is not.

"Also, in case you want to take your foot out of your mouth about this "primitive" communication system, I suggest you actually read up on the hobby first."

A hobby does not outweigh a national interest. And arguing about your form of communication is about as constructive as a bike messenger trying to ban fax machines.

Re:Not Evil?

[KC7GR]

"I see, so how is one going to practice this? Guess keep the equipment and the antennas up and invest 1000s of dollars into a hobby on the off chance that maybe you'll be able to help one day...but until that day it just sits there unused..."

Personally, I use my radios every day. When I'm in my home area, I use them to chat with other hams during my commute. When I'm in an unfamiliar area, especially Canada, having amateur radio handy has saved my arse more than once, especially when it comes to getting driving directions and traffic advisories from the locals.

I'm proud to say I've been active in ham radio since 1977, and I've learned an awful lot from it, electronics-wise. In fact, I would not be in my current job had it not been for the experience I gained from the hobby.

When the Nisqually Earthquake hit in Feb. 2001, here in the Puget Sound region, the entire cellphone network was overloaded within minutes after the shaking stopped, and landlines were quick to follow.

What kept on working? That's right. Ham radio VHF and UHF repeaters. Emergency-response nets went active in record time, insuring that areas without any other type of communication at that moment suddenly had a way to contact the rest of the area, and to ask for help if it was needed.

When the East Bay Area hills in California suffered a crippling firestorm in 1991, guess what kept on working when cell sites and landlines were overloaded? Right again. Amateur radio.

And let's not forget the now-famous Loma Prieta Earthquake of 1989. Once again, amateur radio equipment kept right on working while cellular and landlines were overcrowded or knocked out entirely.

Want to know something else? I'm a survivor of all three of those disasters. In each and every case, my radio gear and my fellow hams held the only reliable means I had to keep informed on what was happening, and to keep in touch with my family.

I can also tell, by your comments, that you've never taken a serious look at ham radio. You don't need "1000s of dollars" to get started. You can get a simple handheld transceiver for less than $100, and many ham radio clubs offer license classes for free.

Now, is it POSSIBLE to invest thousands into the hobby? Of course it is. I've done it, but I also provide technical services to other hams as part of my side business.

Spending thousands is possible with ANY hobby (just ask a coin or stamp collector). Like any other hobby, you can choose to put as little or as much as you want to into it.

Also, like any other hobby, it gives back exactly what you choose to put into it.

So, before you go assuming that a typical ham's radio gear and antennas just "sits there unused" most of the time, I suggest you go talk to an active hamateur, or perhaps attend a local radio club meeting. You can find listings for clubs at the ARRL's site. You can also find info on how to get started in the hobby if you so choose.

And yes, BPL is most definitely "evil." You'd understand why if you had your ham license.

Happy hunting.

Re:Not Evil?

[UnifiedTechs]

"Your made a statement, but not a point. Did the Federal Government depend upon your HAM radio to get the word out about 9/11?"

Actually the answer is yes, HAM radio volunteers where one of the main line of communications after 9/11. They provided nearly 100% of the comunications for the Red Cross as well as a large chunk of traffic for the government.

Here is an article about what they did: http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/WTC.pdf

Here is an article in which the state of New Jersey Thanks them: http://www.eham.net/articles/4572

There are many more articles like this out there.

-KI4HLW

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

Not a hobby, a service. Again, read up on it before responding. You'll see this isn't just a bunch of guys sitting around talking about the weather with 1000's of dollars worth of equipment.

The Ham service isn't there to give neighbors news, they're there to help coordinate disaster relief, provide 2-way communications for rescue workers...the list goes on and on. You're examples of you getting info via a radio with a battery is all fine and good. But again, look beyond your little world and what it can do for you and see the bigger picture of what the Amatuer Service is all about. It's there to help people, not to hinder. BB over powerlines is NOT the solution to the economy of our nation...give me a break.

Of course, I could turn it around easily...and actually back it up with facts with "Ham radio is crucial to the security, health and welfare of our nation. Broadband is not". You can still access the internet over phone lines no matter where you are...downloading porn at fast speeds is not crucial to our economy.

And you're right, a hobby does not outweigh a national interest. Good thing we're not talking about hobbies here then...other than surfing the web at high speeds can certainly be called "a hobby".

Re:Not Evil?

[sgant]

Read my post again...I'm on your side and I am a Ham.

73

Re:Not Evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

I let my ham license lapse when I stopped using it, replaced with cellphone and Internet.

Good. Amateur radio is for experimentation and fun. The ARRL tried to do the cell phone ham thing a few years back and it just was a huge clusterfuck. I'm glad you're leaving the spectrum to the rest of us experimenters.

Re:Not Evil?

[n4wff]

I guess maybe that one day is coming with hurricane Dennis heading toward the Florida panhandle.

Re:Not Evil?

[GPSguy]

BPL isn't just an HF-impinging system. There are VHF, UHF and microwave signal injectors. Of these, most (although the microwave set appears to be an exception) are pretty significant emitters when energized. And pretty bad at tolerating "competing" signal impinging on the spectrum on which BPL tries to use.

Local RF emmissions, in licensed operations, near a BPL-enabled powerline are likely to cause problems if there's an overlap.

Let's address your use of satellite communications for emergency comms:
As long as the load is controlled, this will probably work. What has been demonstrated time, and time again, is that local cellphone and trunked networks seem to overload pretty quickly in the local area or even region of the disaster/event if that network is used by, say, the media and local emergency managers. VHF/UHF backups using Amateur Radio have shown theur worth in those settings over and over.

Similarly, the HF networks have been useful to disseminate data from areas which have lost conventional telecommunications due to infrastructure damage or eradication. Look at large areas of Florida just last year... or Sumatra in December. The amount of data transferred out of Sumatra by Amateur Radio was pretty significant.

I've kept my ham license up. It's an interesting tool to use for RF experimentation. Did I mention the linking I've been doing with 802.11b/g hardware using the 6 channels Ham Radio happens to be primary on? 2-10 Mb/s for data and voice using conventional data methods, but in the ham commuity, is interesting. And, I've been playing with 802.16 in a similar manner. I've had a leg up on a lot of folks who don't have my RF background, but did sit through a propagation course in EE in college. I've done it, (I've studied it, too) so it's not magic or theory to me.

Re:Not Evil?

[glitch23]

There is so many other ways to get broadband to even the most remote people that over the powerlines doesn't even need to be. Got a phone line? You should be able to get broadband.

Access to a phone line does not guarantee broadband access. If the house is too far from the CO with the way the phone lines are laid then DSL is out of the question. Most likely cable would be out too if it's really remote. The only option is satellite which isn't convenient or cheap and most likely you would still have to use your phone line as your upload line which would be slow probably in remote areas (33.6kbps if you are lucky).

Great....

[Brad1138]

Now Godzilla will be taking my internet down as well.

Re:Great....

[Rei]

I look forward to hearing voices communicating every time I walk past power lines. Really, we're just begging for God of the net to start messing with us through our Navis.

Re:Great....

[tsotha]

I'm ashamed to admit I got that one. The question I have is - did you have to look at the DVD case or did you actually remember the word "Navi" off the top of your head?

Wait...

[illtron]

Wait, didn't Slashdot already post this, or did I read it somewhere else yesterday?

self install kits?

[Nerftoe]

I wonder if power-line internet service offerings will feature "install yourself" kits? Perhaps this is one of the things keeping power-line internet from taking off - the installation procedure could be a bit tricky?

Re:self install kits?

[eldawg]

LOL yeah that could be tricky. That's one thing DSL and to a smaller extent Cable broadband have going for them.

Re:self install kits?

[dagr8tim]

I've seen this in action. You plug your modem into the wall, launch your favorite web browser, and you'll come to a screen that says "enter your username & password". Once you have done that, 30 seconds later your on. No filters to mess with, no splitters or anything. You want to move your desk, you can use any outlet in your house. No planning your desk near a cable or phone jack.

Re:self install kits?

[suwain_2]

More significantly, you don't have to worry about people leeching off of 'backbones' like you do with cable television.

I was worried...

[Karl Cocknozzle]

for their internet over broadband ventures.

...For a second, I thought Google was acting all ".com bubbly" by throwing good money after bad with "Internet over Power Lines." Glad to see it is not that, but rather a wise investment in something known as "Internet over broadband."

Next, you're going to tell me that have that intraweb on cell-phones, too...

Re:I was worried...

[Anonymous Coward]

In a lot of ways Google acts like a company that has more money than it knows what to do with. I'm sure the management is concerned that they have almost all their eggs in one (advertising) basket, too.

Its about time....

[eldawg]

Even though the technology may still need some polishing, it is already being pursued in Europe.

Re:Its about time....

[jwdb]

It doesn't need polishing, it needs scrapping. I'm no ham (although I'd like to get my license some day) but I can understand the need for multiple communication systems. Whatever happened to not putting all your eggs in one basket?

Maybe when wifi has blanketed the world with access, but until then keep the noise out of the existing radio systems. We need them for weather, for emergency, and god knows what else.

Heck, I can't even get AM radio on the commuter train any more due to all the noisy electronics. Can't stick to FM either, seeing as a 20min ride carries me out of reception.

Jw

BPL...not good

[VAXcat]

It's unfortunate that a company that wants to do no evil is investing in activity that will earn it the emnity of most every amateur radio operator in the country...

Re:BPL...not good

[Anonymous Coward]

The HAM crowd amazes me on this point. Manassas, VA adopted BPL last year and has shown demonstrations of folks using HAM all throughout the city. No interference whatsoever. AFAIK, of all of the commercial deployments, none have been shown to negatively interfere with amateur radio. The claims of interference seem like little more than FUD to me. Everybody wants something to complain about.

Re:BPL...not good

[MightyMartian]

I'd love to see some links to this. This flies in the face of damn near everything I've heard about using power lines in this way, as it essentially turns them into large antennas. A few months ago, other links were provided that showed that this technology bleeds RF like crazy, so your claim is completely at variance to everything else I've read, and my understanding of the physics of using power lines in this way.

Re:BPL...not good

[Anonymous Coward]

Not EMNITY, it's ENMITY. I always thought it was emnity too but I just looked it up.

Re:BPL...not good

[lugar]

There is more than ample evidence to show that turning power lines into radiating antennae is a bad idea. Need evidence? Start here:

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.html

Re:BPL...not good

[coflow]

Fair enough. I did some searching, and all I could find were two types of articles:

1) Hysterical radio operators claiming that everyone who asserts that the technology is non-interfering are idiots. I read a lot of claims that "as soon as we can prove that the networks interfere, believe that we will sue the operators and shut them down". I believe this claim, however I noticed that I found not one instance of an actual commercial network being sued. Given that there have been commercial deployments for the past two years now, I'm a little puzzled why this is, unless of course the HAM claims may be overblown.
2) I read articles by industry-types who make the opposite claim.

I don't know the right answer, but when you show me an actual lawsuit that demonstrates such interference is harming HAM radio operators, I'll believe you. Incidentally, from what I read, in Manassas they use a technology called "notching" that removes the frequencies used by short-wave radios. I'm no expert on the technology, but given the lack of actual cases (or apparent lack I should say), it seems like notching must be working.

Re:BPL...not good

[coflow]

All of the noted interfernce demonstrations are "tests". I would be interested to see a "production" deployment where the same interference is noted.

Re:BPL...not good

[srhuston]

Any linkage to back that claim up? Or is this perhaps another case where the power company did their homework first, and deployed BPL in an area with nobody around to complain?

I do have a few links that say otherwise though: here, here, and this one which actually looks like a company trying to do it right.

Re:BPL...not good

[MonMotha]

Basically, while BPL can pollute the entire MF/HF spectrum, amateur radio operators were the group that made the biggest stink (also affected are lots of emergency operations, some older fixed links, international shortwave broadcasters, etc.). Amatuers are allocated certain bands (there's a giant poster if you google for "US Frequency Allocations"). Since the amateurs are the most likely to notice and complain, they simply don't use those frequencies (and maybe lower fundamentals that could have harmonics within those bands, depending on thier signalling methods). This is called notching.

Since the amateur bands are relatively small, this doesn't remove very much capacity from their data services, but makes the amateur service happy. A good test would be to go examine noise levels outside the amatuer bands.

Also, realize that on a normal SSB phone receiver, high-bandwidth, high-symbol-rate digital signals such as this can sound very much like naturally occuring noise. The lower HF bands can be noisy anyway (especially during the day), so it may be difficult to tell if noise is natural or from something like a leaky data system (there have been problems with leaky cable systems up on VHF as well). Working 40m or 80m can be difficult enough with all the natural noise, let alone any added noise from a system like power line broadband.

If it were possible to turn the BPL system on and off at will for a test, it would be much easier to examine noise levels. Just get yourself a spectrum analyzer and a wide-bandwidth antenna (maybe a log periodic or something). Take some data points (or maybe just a picture of the full HF spectrum) with the system on, then with it off. Compare. This is much like the procedure used to test consumer electronic devices for FCC part 15 compliance (whether they be intentional or non-intentional radiators).

Re:BPL...not good

[KD5YPT]

Sure it turns the powerline into a massive antenna. But here's a few points.
1. Powerline already "hums" at at 60 Hz.
2. The frequency they use over the powerline could very well be outside the frequency of HAM bands. So even if there're bleeding, it might not be in the same frequency as HAM band.

Re:BPL...not good

[microwave_EE]

1. Pretty tough to do much data transmission when your carrier frequency is only 60Hz. Though I'm sure that radio astronomers would've been happy to be able to use that VVLF portion of the spectrum. Obviously they can't, as it's massively polluted.

2. To get significant bandwidth over your transmission line, your signal is going to vary by at least +/- the frequency of your signal. Ergo, to get a lot of data on there, they will be emitting a very wide-band signal, possibly...nay... probably interfering with many differently-used portions of the spectrum.

Re:BPL...not good

[leighklotz]

Another AC writes (why won't any of these people say who they are?)
>Manassas, VA adopted BPL last year and has shown demonstrations of folks
>using HAM all throughout the city. No interference whatsoever.
>AFAIK, of all of the commercial deployments, none have been shown to
>negatively interfere with amateur radio. The claims of interference
>seem like little more than FUD to me. Everybody wants something
>to complain about.

Well, you're quite documentedly wrong. I did Google manassas, va bpl and got a top hit that led me to a MS Word document of FCC complaint filings, together with links to the complaints filed on the official FCC web site. See Google's cache for a HTML version of the word document.

Another contains WMV video of a radio experiencing interference in Manassas, VA. and watch "706 listening to BPL on 40 meters, while another transmits".

Re:BPL...not good

[leighklotz]

>don't know the right answer, but when you show me an actual lawsuit that
>demonstrates such interference is harming HAM radio operators, I'll believe you.
>Incidentally, from what I read, in Manassas they use a technology called =
>"notching" that removes the frequencies used by short-wave radios. I'm no expert
> on the technology, but given the lack of actual cases (or apparent lack I should
>say), it seems like notching must be working.

Here you go.

• video of interference in Manassas
• list of complaints filed with the FCC (search for Manassas) (HTML cache
• Manassas, VA BPL search

Re:BPL...not good

[sl3xd]

You forgot to mention the emnity of those who enjoy Radio-Controlled hobbies (be it R/C Aircraft, cars, boats, robots), whom are also not small in number.

Re:BPL...not good

[Anonymous Coward]

Any of those demos you've seen have been rigged. Last time I drove through the place (I have an HF mobile setup), 20m was just totally wiped out.

More competition

[mholve]

With new competition from Verizon's FIOS and now Google... The cable companies will get a well deserved run for their money.

Anything that jeopardizes the cable monopoly on broadband is okay in my book.

Broadband

[verloren]

"their internet over broadband ventures"

Internet over broadband? Hmm, I could see that catching on...

Re:Broadband

[TheBoostedBrain]

That's nothing.... Wait for Internet over IP (IoIP)

Re:Broadband

[comzen]

You caught that too, ...I thought I was having caffeine hallucinations again!

Google? Powerlines?

[FrontalLobe]

Wait... Does this mean I can search the web from my toaster finally?

Classic Homer simpson reloaded

[Anonymous Coward]

They've got the internet over broadband now?

over what?

[mpaon]

for their internet over broadband ventures

um.... what?

Game On!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The VC's are back!!! The boom is booming again!!!

I'm getting mine this time!!!

Disturbing

[PacketScan]

This is quite disturbing.. Well it's obvious google doesn't care if yout radio doesn't work or your Over the air tv signals are no longer viewable. Anyone tried to watch tv with someone sitting just 5 feet from a nextel i7xx series phone? you can hear the tick tick tick of the timing signal. This can't be much better

Re:Disturbing

[Martin Blank]

It's not just Nextel phones that do this, and most common speakers will exhibit this (occasionally, I hear it on the speaker in the phone). One of my friends is with Cingular, and his does the same thing to nearby speakers.

Re:Disturbing

[drsquare]

Why do Google care? This technology won't be anywhere near Google HQ, they have their own fast connections. As long as their shareholders are happy, that's all that matters. Remember their motto: 'Don't be evil...to investors.'

Re:Disturbing

[PacketScan]

wow i had never seen that. then again nto many people i know have cingular. I wonder if it's the spectrum they are using or the Phones themselves.

I know nextel was fined a hefty amount by the fcc for interference i wonder if they are related.

Re:Disturbing

[ldhertert]

I believe the networks are supposedly discontinuing airwave transmission within the next 5 years anyway, so this really isn't much of a concern.

My prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that Google is eventually going into the power generation business and we will all end up as well-indexed human batteries with the exception of a few very wealthy shareholders.

Radio Interference

[Anonymous Coward]

At Dayton Hamvention this year a booth set up a demonstration of how much noise this can create across Ham radio frequency bands. Unless I'm mistaken, the FCC will have to ban this as soon as someone complains that they can't hit the local repeater from their basement due to interference from power lines.

Internet over Broadband

[Anonymous Coward]

Internet over broadband ... hmm... what a novel concept.

Probe yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.dslreports.com/scan and other places will probe your machine for you. Most web-based scans don't do a complete job, but if you have a friend online he can "attack" you on every port.

You know the drill -
start your server
config your firewall to let port through
probe yourself

and pray your server doesn't have any security holes or if it does the bad guys aren't probing you at the same time.

After probing yourself, be sure to turn on your firewall.

Re:Probe yourself

[le_jfs]

After probing yourself, be sure to turn on your firewall.

And don't forget to discard the surgical gloves.

Wireless

[loomis]

I find it interesting that in this day and age of moving towards transmitting signals without wires, no one was ever able to safely transmit power wirelessly ala Tesla's ideas. Without power lines, to latch on to, perhaps see more efforts focused on long-distance wireless internet?

Loomis

Re:Wireless

[lucas_picador]

You and this guy both, buddy.

Personally, I think Tesla was full of shit. Because, you know, he was a famous inventor and I'm some anonymous schlub on teh Intarweb and saying so makes me feel better about myself.

Re:Wireless

[b1t r0t]

I think Tesla was full of shit too.

From your link: I don't know if its possible given the laws of physics, but I'd sure like to find out. I'd invest in it.

Wahahaaaahahahahhhaaaaaa! Look up the inverse square law, buddy! Not to mention that enough people are unhappy with the fact that you can light up flourescent bulbs just by holding them up under a high-voltage transmission line. Being able to do that anywhere would be a hundred times the fun.

Actually, there is one place that "wireless power" makes sense, and that's beaming it (in a directional beam) from a satellite to a power receiving station on Earth. Since it's a tight beam, there's no inverse-square problem.

Re:Wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called the sun. ;)

Re:Wireless

[KD5YPT]

Tesla is full of shit eh?

Where do you think we got our AC generators from? Tesla.
Sure he has his problem, but don't say he's shit just because his idea doesn't work too well.

As for the inverse square law, he's fully aware of that. He's development revolves around attemp to get around the inverse square law (using the ionosphere as a conductor, use ionosphere as a container, uses earth itself, etc).

Re:Wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

no one was ever able to safely transmit power wirelessly

Great idea! instead of sending emails through power-line wires, what about sending megawats on top of wi-fi TCP/IP packets? I think you should patent this ingenious invention before software patents will be outlawed!

Internet over Broadband eh?

[squoozer]

What will they think of next?

for their internet over broadband ventures

[Thing 1]

for their internet over broadband ventures

Well, I'm glad someone's finally doing it!

</sarcasm>

Broadband over Power Lines

[alue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communicat ion

Gotta love competition

[jbeaupre]

Cinergy serves Cincinnati which already has fierce competition between Cincinnati Bell's Zoomtown service (which I use at home) and Time Warner's Roadrunner service (which I use at work). The price has settled at about $45/mo (less with bundling). Now they compete on speed (3Mbps download 768 Kbps upload vs ~5Mbps max download and ? upload). It'll be fun to see what a third competitor will do to price and speed.

Re:Gotta love competition

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually have this service in Cinci (technically O'bryonville). It's great. 3mbs up/down for $36 a month which I split with my neighbor. Plug in the wall and go. Easiest service install I've ever seen.

Yeah, I know the hammies hate this but it's keeping me from having to pay for cable or a phone line.

Overall, a 9/10. Great price, good speed.

Follow SOP...

[w0lver]

Let hope they follow the same plan as their other new products and have a looong free beta period... Somebody send me an invite!

Streaming blackouts

[timeToy]

Wow, that is going to fun, given the quality of the grid here in the US, I can already hear the buzzing of the power lines try to cope with bittorent traffic. I look forward for the "streaming blackouts" in California !

Oh boy...

[HarvardFrankenstein]

Cue the Comcast and Verizon lobbyists!

Who needs Broadband over powerlines

[Ossus_10]

They already have those neato Powerline networking modules that give you incredibly crappy speed (and unreliability) for lots of money. Power-line internet sounds like a winner to me! ;) Ossus

Hello, Enron?!?

[mls]

Hello, Enron?!?

Wasn't this one of Enron's money grubbing ploys?

Re:Google? Powerlines?

[Professr3]

I can see it now... "Toaster Worms" that burn "0wn3d" into your toast in the morning. How... charming.

Re:Google? Powerlines?

[suitepotato]

Wait... Does this mean I can search the web from my toaster finally?

No, it means your toaster can download spyware and hackers in Russia will know whether you like rye or wheat and if you use butter or jam. Watch out for your coffee maker suddenly ordering whole bags of beans to make a statement about your tastes in coffee and you don't even want to know what your hair drier will be doing. shudder

Ya know

[Anonymous Coward]

Google comes out with some cool stuff, and nice toys. I just hope they don't go too far and create another evil empire.

They are starting to scare me :P

Re:Who needs Broadband over powerlines -- I do

[GatorKing]

I live in Cincinnati and I subscribe to Current's BPL service. Notwithstanding Slashdotters' speculation, there has been no epidemic of bad TV recpetion. I'm not a Ham operator but am not aware of any outcry there either. Oh, and Current's broadband service is fast, cheap, and reliable. I pay at least $10/mo less than comparable cable modem service, and I have never once had a service outage. I'd recommend anyone give this (awesome) technology a try before badmouthing it.

It gets even better...

[OmniGeek]

BPL *also* interferes with public emergency service radios. So when there's an emergency, ALL the emergency responders can potentially be interfered with. What a great idea, eh?

Internet

[WizzleWizzleWizzle]

I can't stand it... it is Internet, not internet. Big "I"... upper case "I". Internet. Internet is a formal name, like Joe or Prauge.

Re:Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't stand this comment. Thats Anal, not anal. Big A - as in A guy with too much time on his hands to compain about trivialities.

Re:Internet

[gkuz]

I've never met anyone named "Prauge". How would you pronounce that? PROWJ?

"Company with lots of money investing some of it"

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I would have never seen this coming.

Has anyone gotten BB over Power Lines to work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anybody gotten this to work?

Has anyone made it practical and economical?

Sounds like "broad band" over sewer lines: doable but not really too smart.

Re:Has anyone gotten BB over Power Lines to work?

[reedsr]

BPL was started by Cinergy as early as last summer in target markets in OHIO, other power companies have also experimented with test markets.

Re:Has anyone gotten BB over Power Lines to work?

[Skapare]

But does it work properly, including no radio interference to any radio service band?

Yeah, it's expensive

[jfengel]

It's pretty prohibitive. Many power lines aren't even insulated, much less caged. Among other things, the weight of the cage would mean more towers to support them, and that's big-time money.

Echelon

[Ruch]

Echelon does something to this effect. I wonder if they would be a part of it?

Power line a poor choice for better avialabbily

[Eravnrekaree]

Power line technology has various problems, such as the fact that power lines were not designed to carry high frequency transmissions and tend to turn into giant antenna systems when they are used in such a manner, disrupting accessibility to radio services such as shortwave radio and amatuer radio. It also turns out to be a rather expensive technology to implement as well as being problematic, since transformers tend to absorb and block RF signals on the power lines, requiring expensive solutions to bypass them. It is to the point where it will be so expensive to implement that it would be better to just implement a fiber optic network, which would provide better bandwidth anyway.

I think a much better and more effective, as well as higher quality solution for both bandwidth broadband avialability and the choice, and for maximum capacity, is to construct a shared fiber optic networks which could be used to carry telephone, cable tv, and internet. These systems should be owned and operated by local governments (who could contract out maintanence and construction to independant contractors if they wish) who would charge an access fee to fund the operatation the networks, and which would be open to all information service providers to provide their information services over them, such as multiple cable tv, phone and internent providers, giving people perhaps dozens more choices, assuring competition and choice for the consumer. This also would seperate the operation of the physical infrastructure from the information services, so one entity isnt controlling both the information services and infrastructure, which allows that entity to have a monopoly over the information services provided over the physical infrastructure. Instead access to the physical infrastructure would be avialable to all information services, like phone, internet and cable, and all of the information services and consumers would pool their resources to build one communications system which tends to be more efficient than every information service having to have its own information service, and it would make it eisier for smaller companies to enter the market and provide additional choices for the consumer since they do not have to fund the construction of another communications system for their exclusive use.

Re:Power line a poor choice for better avialabbily

[Anonymous Coward]

...charge an access fee to fund the operatation the networks...

I for one don't want those stinkin operataters messing with my internet service! Sure, pick on the little guys. I suppose you'll be organizing those taters in sweatshop fashion to save money on those networking expenses. Then a PRO (Potato Rights Organization) will be formed and we'll all be screwed. You thought "Freedom Fries" were bad? Now the fries really will be screaming for freedom.

Wait, on second thought, most of the potatoes I've met were smarter than your average gov't employee anyway. Viva la operataters!

Re:Power line a poor choice for better avialabbily

[Anonymous Coward]

It's being set up here:

http://www.utopianet.org/

Re:Power line a poor choice for better avialabbily

[Anonymous Coward]

What you're referring to already exists (at least the fiber optic part).

googledot

[Macnetic]

sheesh... there should be a google section on /. everything they do is /.ed these days...

Given that I'm a neophyte with regards to this..

[HerculesMO]

What kinds of speeds can they run with the broadband over power lines? I mean... if it's competitive with cable, fiber, etc... bring it on! It's just laying out availability for poorer areas to have access.

That, and the technology being invested in can also be used across the world in poorer nations that don't have the infrastructure to support the kind coverage that developed nations have.

Why BPL is bad for radio transmissions

[lugar]

For those who are looking for data on BPL and its effects on radio transmissions, this is a good place to start:

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.html

Re:Why BPL is bad for radio transmissions

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, the ARRL is an unbiased and objective source of information on this matter.

Re:Why BPL is bad for radio transmissions

[lugar]

Evidence is evidence, the evidence they give isn't something that can be biased.

BTW, no need to post anonymously. If you have proof that the provided evidence is false, please provide it.

Re:Why BPL is bad for radio transmissions

[Anonymous Coward]

Facts can be distorted and presented in a way to suggest something that is false or overstated. You should know better.

I didn't say the evidence was false. I merely pointed out that the ARRL is not an objective source of information in this issue. How would you feel if I linked to information from BPL companies that claim that interference issues are minimal or non-existant and had their own studies to back it up? Obviously, the first reaction would be that evidence from the BPL companies are going to be biased and distorted in a way that may not produce objective results.

I can post as I please. I choose not to create an account here. If you are so against anoynimity, then you should know that posting with a pseudonym doesn't really qualify as being out in the open as to who you are, so I would suggest that you apply your own logic to yourself here.

Re:Why BPL is bad for radio transmissions

[lugar]

Depends entirely on the evidence that they had to present. The problem here is that it's much easier to prove the existance of interference than the lack of. The burden of proof has been met by ARRL and until these concerns are answered (not dodged as they have been) by power companies, there is a problem. I'm sorry, but radio interference is intollerable (not to mention against FCC regulations). Power lines simply were not designed for this application.

As far as anonymous posting, I'm guessing you haven't been around much. People tend to use anonymous posts to troll and avoid being modded down. It's also difficult to know if you're talking to the same individual each time or someone else. It's not the pseudonym that matters, it's the fact that the pseudonym doesn't change during the discussion that matters. Plus it's a way of lowering the shield and showing that you're willing to stand behind your comments and make a positive contribution to the /. community without fear of mod retribution. :)

Re:Why BPL is bad for radio transmissions

[leighklotz]

>I didn't say the evidence was false. I merely pointed out that the ARRL is not an objective source of information in this issue.

I'm sorry, your argument just doesn't hold water. Could you please, AC, tell us why the ARRL would be biased against BPL? Why aren't they coming out against the Concorde SST replacement, PodCasting, Firefox, or the AMD 64 bit Opteron?

The ARRL is opposed to BPL because it has a strong potential to intefere with world-wide radio communications that propagate via ionospheric reflection, because the tests that were done by the NTIA (US Government) showed the problems but were withdrawn by political pressure, and because of real-world tests and actual interference complaints in multiple cities where the trials were ongoing in the US.

Something up their sleeve?

[hey]

There are lots of posts here saying how IPoPower will never work because of this or that. Google isn't mad of dummies - maybe the are investing in a company that has solved these issues? My bet is that its a solution for a small area - like reading power meters.

Re:Something up their sleeve?

[Nonillion]

So since when have they altered the laws of physics? This is just BPL with a new name. No matter how much money you throw at it, BPL will still be BPL, it's a kludge at best. But I'm sure Google has the money to blow on a dead end project such as this.

BPL technology

[dagr8tim]

I should have known this was going to turn into a debate over the technology. I've see this technology in action personally. How many of you can say that? I've also read everything I can about the technology. First off, there are NO instances of this interfering with HAM, emergency bands, or commerical radio. Most of the crap about radio antenna's and stuff is propoganda(sp?) by the likes of the ARRL, because they have this entitlement theory. I personally cannot wait till American Electric Power gets with current so I can have it at my house.

Re:BPL technology

[zeke-o]

got sny more of that crack, buddy?

Re:BPL technology

[Anonymous Coward]

You could not be further from the truth. Several pilot projects have already shut down because of complaints. The ARRL has online video clips demonstrating what the interference sounds like and looks like on a spectrum analyzer.

It's not just Amateurs that are affected, either. Many jurisdictions use low VHF for emergency communication services. Several state police organizations use it too. Motorola is apparently working on a version of BPL that may solve some of these issues, but it's still too early to tell if it will be successful.

Re:BPL technology

[dagr8tim]

Any more of what crack? I've experienced the technology first hand. I've seen what it has to offer. I stand by my original statement/question. "How many of you have actually had any experience with BPL?" Until such a time that you have, I suggest you reserve judgement, or atleast figure out what your your talking about first.

Re:BPL technology

[Anonymous Coward]

They *are* entitiled, because the spectrum that BPL wants to obliterate is assigned to hams (and to shortwave broadcasting, and to radio astronomy, and to aviation, and to the military, and to yet more users) under international treaty.

And you know what? If you sign up for broadband over power lines, and you have a radio ham living nearby, chances are you're going to drop off the net every time they start transmitting. And you will have precisely no remedy because they are the licensed spectrum users, and you are not.

Re:BPL technology

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to operate HF from Manassas, VA at a friend's house. It's nearly impossible to get decent results there anymore. There is too much QRM.

What kind of experience have you had with BPL? You certainly haven't been on the receiving end of the interference.

Bad technology

[Peter Simpson]

It's similar to DSL. Only it radiates far more garbage into the 2 to 30 MHz spectrum, because it's not being sent over twisted pair. It's also much more susceptible to incoming interference from HF radio transmissions.

I should say that I'm an amateur radio licensee, and the amateur community is against this technology because of the interference it causes.

As to BPL having been tested in Europe, I think you'll find that the tests in the UK ended with BPL being discontinued. The tests in the US have been interesting, with amateurs claiming interference and BPL providers denying it. The FCC seems (slightly) biased towards the industry, ruling that tests cause no interference in spite of amateur evidence to the contrary.

Ultimately, I suspect BPL will be an expensive failure, with fiber and digital cable being used to provide broadband to most homes, and wireless links for those far from population centers. BBL signal losses on long runs and interference problems related to the noisy powerline environment will probably make it unattractive compared to dedicated high-bandwidth digital media.

Re:Bad technology

[Anonymous Coward]

Another thing that people here don't seem to realize is that an antenna that radiates can also receive. There are already rumblings on some of the ham radio forums about using 10 meter transmitters to jam the BPL signals, and if this boondoggle interferes with my hobby as much as the ARRL is indicating, I promise that I will use my trusty soldering iron to make as many cheap anti-BPL jammers as I can. It disgusts me to see so many selfish Slashdotters creaming themselves over yet another broadband "service" that will only work if you live a mile or so from the servers, like DSL, and will only serve a very small group of users (and power company execs). I guess it's OK for people whose hobby can actually help people and lets us communicate for free to suffer as long as you assholes can make the power companies richer.

Alternative to BPL in rural areas

[TimmyDee]

My parents still live in what can be considered a "rural" area (only 4 miles from the city, but unreachable by DSL and the cable company has been too lazy). We're frustrated by the lack of broadband options, but recently we ran across the following article.

Frequency grab may air out internet wars

Basically, the guy plans on running a big WiFi transmitter on the unlicensed 2.4 GHz spectrum. How he can run a transmitter at that kind of power (7 mile range) and avoid the FCC is beyond me, but more power to him if he can (no pun intended). I recommend reading the article, as it sounds like a promising concept. I couldn't find any information on his company anywhere on the web aside from some city council minutes, so I'm a bit wary, but hopeful nonetheless. If he succeeds, expect this sort of thing to be rolled out where BPL would otherwise mess with a large portion of the spectrum.

Re:Alternative to BPL in rural areas

[amrust]

Basically, the guy plans on running a big WiFi transmitter on the unlicensed 2.4 GHz spectrum. How he can run a transmitter at that kind of power (7 mile range) and avoid the FCC is beyond me, but more power to him if he can (no pun intended)

When you run in the unlicensed spectrum, you agree not to provide any interference on licenced frequencies.

Strategic move

[spiffy_dude]

This move makes sense for Google. Their advertising revenue comes from Internet users, so assuming the technology works as advertised they will increase their revenue by increasing access to the Internet. Maybe there's something more subtle going on here, but that is at least one obvious answer.

I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

welcome our new electric google overlords!

Re:A new broadband option is welcome to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Tsk, Tsk. Semantics. Your post was actually 6 words and one number. This post contains 20 words, 4 numbers and 8 punctuations. Sheesh, Lightweight.

In "the" country...?

[Anonymous Coward]

So all slashdotters come from only one country you say?
Or do the other posters not count as slashdotters?

So Far So Good in Cincinnati

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using Current Communications' service in Cincinnati since last November. The lowest tier of service (which I have) is 1Kbps (up and down) @ $26.99/mo., which I find adequate for casual internet use.

I am also a beta tester for their VOIP service, which seems to work fine.

Before signing up, I had read quite a bit about the RF interference issues, and I thought I'd give the service a try to gain a first-hand perspective.

Based on my experience so far, I have not encountered any interference on the AM band on several radios I use regularly. I am not a regular shortwave listener, but I do have a small shortwave radio, and I can't really tell a difference since Current started up here.

I really don't know if Current is doing anything different from other deployments of BPL technology, but I suspect they must be doing something to mitigate interference, or I would think I would have noticed it, or noticed some coverage in the local media.

Re:So Far So Good in Cincinnati

[latroM]

IIRC the modulation used by BPL is very broadband and tends to add much noise to the band. They could have used a notch filter to filter out some bands (not very probable) or it could be that the stations were millions of times stronger than the background noise.

Re:So Far So Good in Cincinnati

[lee1026]

Forgive me for my stupidity, but isn't 1Kbps considered to be extremely slow? (as I recall, dial up is 56Kbps)

Re:So Far So Good in Cincinnati

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops, it's 1Mbps.

Re:So Far So Good in Cincinnati

[locokamil]

Damn dude... 1Kbps up and down? For 27 bucks a month?

All I can say is that you got taken for a massive, massive ride. :)

Not Evil.

[dazedNconfuzed]

I thought Google pledged to not do anything 'evil'.

They haven't - so everyone stop whining.

They're investing in R&D, not deploying anything yet. Google just said "hey, let's see what can be done" and you guys have already convicted them.

Just because data-over-powerlines has some problems with radio interference now doesn't mean Google won't fund solving that problem in sync with their "do no evil" policy.

Powerlines run friggin' everywhere - let's see what can be done to improve their usefulness.
The telephone and cable TV infrastructure has been rebuilt more than once - why not the power grid?

Competition

[Anonymous Coward]

The more "competition" the merrier. Keeps driving down the cost of DSL and Cable.

Re:Google? Powerlines?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it runs NetBSD, then yes.

Then invent Internet over Asphalt, please...

[scsirob]

There's roads to just about everywhere too. Be innovative and use those for broadband instead of using huge antenna arrays to try and pipe data through.

If Google really did this, then they broke their vow to be a 'good' company. They vowed they were not out to hurt anyone. Broadband over Power Lines hurts everyone involved with radio, be it emergency services or ham radio folkes. BPL is *evil*

Re:Then invent Internet over Asphalt, please...

[billster0808]

I suppose you cut just burn your packets on CDs and drive down to your ISP with them, but think of how high your ping would be!

Re:Then invent Internet over Asphalt, please...

[Anonymous Coward]

BPL is *evil*

You *ham* geeks are such *drama* queens. Lets try to reserve the word evil for, you know, things that are actually evil.

idoit

Re:Then invent Internet over Asphalt, please...

[innerweb]

There are many forms of evil, some blatant and obvious, as your link points out and some smart, cunning and quiet. Whether BPL is *evil* or not, I do not know (as I have not followed what is happening there), but there are many Corporations that are evil. There are many people who do evil things as well. You can not judge evil by its clothing or its visible actions, only by its intent. Stupid people do things that seem evil in the name of good, and evil people do things that appear good with *evil* (selfish?) intent. Not a conspiracy, but each person/company has its own agenda and its own way of doing what it does. Homicide/Suicide Bombers are but one type of individual who would do great harm in there own selfish goals. Destroying the environment, stealing privacy, or destroying others services (RF), are another.

It is not how obvious the act nor how visible the act that determines how evil (or bad) the person (company), but the intent. As far as Al Quaeda, they are definately evil (James Bond style), as far as this BPL, are they trying to produce a system that does no harm? or are they wrecklessly pursuing an agenda without regards for any harm they do?

InnerWeb

Re:Google? Powerlines?

[appavi]

It shud be Google Powerlines Beta rite

My experience with it.

[moultano]

My Mom has signed onto it too as part of their trial service. She was previously a zoomtown customer. I've had some issues with it dropping packets, and it seems to be pretty sensitive to where the "modem" (or whatever they call it) is plugged into your wall.

At first we just plugged it in wherever in the house we were using the computer near an outlet, and that worked ok. It was like having a home network with just a little added inconvenience. People apparantly liked the mobility of that, but didn't like dropping packets. They hooked my mom up with a wireless router, and tested all the outlets in the house to find the most stable one to hook it up to. The device is about 3"x4"x2".

I'm pretty sure they have to install something in the power system to enable it for an area. (At the transformer level maybe?)

I'm not sure Cincinnati was such a great choice for where to try this out first. We aren't the most tech savvy of places, and a lot of homes around here are pretty old and probably haven't had their wiring replaced in 50 years. It seems like a pretty adverse environment to be testing it in.

All in all, its pretty cool, although it gives me the willies plugging my ethernet cable directly into the wall socket some times. (http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/) I wonder what happens when the device starts to go bad?

Next story..

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop the press! Somebody at Google farted!

Gosh, what will they think of next...

[feepness]

ZDNet reports that Current Communications Group has received investment money from Google, Hearst, and Goldman Sachs for theirinternet over broadband ventures.

Internet over broadband. I never would have thought of that. They never cease to amaze me.

Fifty Bucks...

[KrackHouse]

...to the first person to send me a virus I can use to explode the pigeons above my driveway that crap on my friggen convertible. Of course exploded pigeon may be harder to clean off the upholstery.

Re:Fifty Bucks...

[Insensitive_Claudio]

If I only had mod points to give...

Internet over water lines.

[MDMurphy]

I liked the asphalt comment. I've been saying for years that with everyone jumping on the bandwagon that internet over water lines was bound to come.

Only downside is that if you start downloading/serving a massive bittorrent someone taking a shower is liable to get a blast of cold water.

There is someone doing it over gas lines. They're running RF contained in the line.
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000230043258/

A few years back someone else was running fibre via sewer pipes.

I look forward to fucking up your Internet.

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the radiation from BPL is not a licensed use of the ham spectrum, and ham operators are licensed users, to fairly high power levels, it is perfectly legal for a ham to set up a transmitter, point it at a powerline, and completely destroy the ability of that powerline to transmit data.

"Whaa, some ham is interfering with my Internet!"

"Suck it up, I'm legally allowed to."

Oh, and I also look forward to sniffing all your traffic, which is, after all, being transmitted on a giant fucking antenna!

two reasons Google/BPL doesn't make sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Google should know by now that it's a company about creating software and other intellectual property, not about running a big ugly infrastructure that competes with the other big ugly infrastructures, that, by the way Google also needs.

Also, why should electric power companies, who sell an increasingly scarce resource (energy) bother to get into a highly competetive and turbulent yet still regulated business (communication) based on an increasingly less scarce resource (bandwidth)? The case for overbuilding is not very promising.

Re:two reasons Google/BPL doesn't make sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, why should electric power companies, who sell an increasingly scarce resource (energy) bother to get into a highly competetive and turbulent yet still regulated business (communication) based on an increasingly less scarce resource (bandwidth)? The case for overbuilding is not very promising.

they can use it to remotely monitor people's meters, removing the need for meter readers.
they can also more closely monitor feeders and transformers, knowing exactly where problems are and when to switch loads and other things they have to worry about

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Think about it

[Anti-Trend]

Think about what you're saying... you're worried that ham radio will not work in a blackout due to data over _power lines_...

No Problem!

[PsiPsiStar]

>>Hasn't this tech been show to be damaging to Ham radios? Something that is usually very helpful in times of emergency, when phones and sometimes power is even out?

Well, if you're only keeping your HAM for emergencies, then I have your perfect solution. If there's an emergency which knocks out the power, THEN you can use your HAM radio.

Google + BPL =new search engine

[speedlaw]

Googles' usually too smart to do this, but as a ham op and computer geek, you need both. RF, for those of you scoffing, works almost all the time, without need for any infrastructure. The web is great, broadband rocks, but it has all the toughness of wet tissue paper. A mere blip in the power grid messes things up. BPL will pollute the entire RF spectrum, and, yes, it can be knocked out by a mere 100 watt mobile transmitter-I know this first hand. Why, Google, Why ?

Want to get rid of someone?

[Anonymous Coward]

This will be great! Anyone I want to uhmm, get rid of I will just tell them how to get "free" internet from the power lines. After that the fireworks will provide a nice show.

So, is this good or bad this week?

[mi]

Searching Slashdot for "FCC power broadband" brings up a number of articles with varying opinions.

I also remember one blasting FCC for the very thinking about it -- some highly moderated comments were particularly opinionated. The repuglican FCC, you see, was obviously in it for the benefit of the Big Business (TM) at as expense of the Little Guy (TM).

Well, Google is among the Biggest businesses these days, and yet it is still quite popular here... Khmm...

MOD PARENT UP--INFORMATIVE

[microwave_EE]

Well thought-out commentary, sir (or madam).

BPL is wrong on so many levels it should die. The FCC hopefully let this theft of the spectrum continue to exist, even in it's present early-testing phase. If a device doesn't comply with the "no harmful interference" regulations, then whoever implements it needs to be seriously fined into compliance.

It works both ways

[Bruce Perens]

Unfortunately, BPL has already proven to be a very obnoxious radiator of energy into in-use communication bands. The problem is that when you put energy into a wire, that wire is always also an antenna radiating that energy. Power lines make excellent transmitting antennas, and a single installation can take out many forms of communications for at least a mile arond the wire, and because of ionospheric "skip", the interference from a single installation can have a global impact.

Sure, signals can get into the wire when a strong station is close by, but they always get out.

Bruce

u know whenever i read something with google in it

[dotspeaks]

i guess thats gonna rock... and same thing i see here to... broadband on powerline is what we need at places/countries where investment in internet is very hard to find. and setting up new infrastructure is not sensible (like remote places in africa/ arabian countries/ and other asian countries)

so lets hope google kicks this off by investing in it.. and lots of countries get profitted by it.

In Russia Hams Google You!

[Jherek Carnelian]

By now, everyone on slashdot knows that internet-over-power-lines is bad because it ends up acting like an antenna and causing interference in the same frequency bands that amateur radio is restricted to.

So how about turning that around and making its biggest weakness into its biggest strength? Since they naturally act like big-freaking-antennas, instead of using the power-lines to deliver wired connectivity, why not use them to deliver wireless connectivity? Sure, it would probably have to be one-way only but if there is a ton of bandwidth then a regular phone line or even wi{fi,max} could handle the uplink portion.

Even without uplink there is a lot of data that could be broadcast usefully - think television, radio and streaming multi-media it could be an alternative to cable-tv systems and you wouldn't even need to worry about the last-mile, just put a pair of rabbit-ears on your set-top box.

I figure that when the intention is to use the power lines as antennae, rather than it being an unintended side-effect, they could control the modulation such as to make it more friendly to the ham spectrum users. Of course I could just be dreaming.

Re:Who needs Broadband over powerlines -- I do

[fatboy]

What kind of speed do you get?

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Do it :)

Google's track record

[Live_in_Dayton]

Slashdotters, given Google's track record in developing innovative products, maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt for at least a little while. They have been out hiring the smartest people in the country (besides me). They might know what they are doing. Let's take a deep breath and see what our new Google overlord's have decided will be our future. This message will repeat every 5 minutes.

GInternet

[ericdfields]

I feel that this could somehow lead to Google developing a free as in beer ISP just as they provide amazing FAIB apps like google maps/earth, gmail, the search engine itself (have we forgot that this is an app? and probably the most widely used app outside of the OS itself...).

They just have a nack for giving ultra-cool ish away for free.

Re:Google? Powerlines?

[warkda rrior]

Sure, but you get all sorts of half-baked web pages.

Okay we know this much...

[Khyber]

BPL can knock out all kinds of communications. After all, it's going to have to broadcast across different frequencies, and power lines tend to disrupt radio signals to begin with, even minutely.

BPL is intersting, but I want to knwo this. If BPL became feasible, how would I hook this up to my computer? Certainly there's a box inbetween the power line and the network card, but what happens when lightning strikes and a power surge travels thru box/NIC/mobo? Poof. Bye-bye computer, BPL just cost you anywhere from $300-$4000 (depending on how hard-core of a computer user you are) and now you're out of internet access STILL.

Hey, if the power companies wanna do broadband over power line, why not incite the cable companies, or the phone companies, to do POB? (Power over Broadband, kinda like Power over Ethernet.) Granted you could only most likely use something less than 15 volts, but once that 120 line reaches the transformer (in most electronics) it's converted into 12VDC. Why not just run 12VAC and convert to 12VDC with a simple rectifier?

BPL has other disadvantages Think about it like this. Your body, in any given form or state, is composed of energy. Electromagnetic radiation can affect your body. It's been proven to help heal, or to hurt. In this case, a buttload of unregulted/unfiltered/uncontrolled bursts of EM radiation is sooner or later going to cause biological problems by interfering with the natural energy movement inside your body, or inside grass, etc. Heck, it's possible it could interfere with the electrical activity going on in your heart or brain. You want internet access so badly that you're willing to risk becoming a veggie or worse?

Not to say BPL is 'evil' but while the idea is nice, there are hundreds of reasons most likely still unstated that will show why BPL is just not safe, on so many levels.

Doesn't work...

[HermanAB]

Powerline data transmission has been proven to be not cost effective so many times before. It is even ineffective in Europe, where the voltage is higher and transformers are much further apart - so how the hell would it ever be profitable in North America?

"internet over broadband"? this exists already

[vishesh]

just a minor correction- the story reads "....unications Group has received investment money from Google, Hearst, and Goldman Sachs for their internet over broadband ventures." i think the OP intended to write "internet over power-line"

proper Quote

[Alexcount]

"Hmm, They've got the internet on computers now"

PLEASE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can somebody post real research showing that broadband over power lines causes radio interference instead of the standard "Everybody on /. has heard bla bla" I've heard it too, from many sources, and I'm no radio tech, but I'd like to see some proof... KoD --------------- SHE LIKES ME!

Re:Google? Powerlines?

[angrytuna]

In a limited sense, you already can.

Which means...

[zogger]

...according to the article that they ARE headed towards being yet another craptacular huge corporation, which was predicted by many once they went public. It has happened to just about every other large name brand company that started out "cool". go public, have to deal with shareholders= downhill slide into profits at *any* cost mentality.

For such a tech and brains oriented company, this is a seriously major fubar on their part. There's no way (*except one) the engineers there would have recommended it, so it had to come from sales management, ergo, on the path to craptacularness.

*Disclaimer there is one potential theoretical way. Speculation now. Hidden someplace some company has devised a way to do this BPL without causing interference. Google knows this from insider info. That's the only thing I can think of why they would invest in it. From publically known about radio engineering realities, BPL is a hideously lame tech.

future tech is better

[lophophore]

Never mind fiber and digital cable, the future is in WiMax (802.16e) and 802.20. That will more likely become the "last mile" delivery media of choice, and the BPL providers and stockholders will all go hungry.

802.16e is getting deployed now and 802.20 (the so-called "Mobile-Fi") is coming real soon now.

retards

[Anonymous Coward]

The real comedy of this story and peoples comments is this.. you people will get all riled up about rfid. The tags that will be put in goods won't even have a battery and *run off of the power of the reading signal*. As if someone will be driving by and break into your house because they can magically get a signal powerful enough to power up all the tags in your house AND tell the difference between those and everyone else's tags on your street.

But hey, lets run data over lines MILES long at 10,000v at low frequencies. EVERYONE in the USA and people in freakin JAPAN are going to pick up the signal and read your email once the encryption is broken.. BUT, FUCK THOSE HAMS! AM I RIGHT GUYS?

Re:Google? Powerlines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait... Does this mean I can search the web from my toaster finally?

OR you can just make your PC into a toaster by installing Windows!

The question is why...

[jonwil]

Given all the bad things power-line-internet does (problems with ham radios etc), why are we still seeing people pushing for it.
Who benifits?
Does power-line-internet give the actual users anything that couldnt be accomplished with other technologies that DONT cause so many problems (like Cable, DSL, 802.11x WiFi etc)

Blp must die

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont know about you but i wouldnt want to live right next to the lagrest antenna system (power lines)readiating rf 24 7.
cus i sure it would put out rf in excess of ther recomended values

The odd thing about a nerd-oriented website...

[wskellenger]

...is that there are so many fcking nay-sayers. This is typicical of the Slashdot crowd:

>Obviously, Google has far more money than
>they really know what to do with.

>If it causes problems for emergency bands
>and other legitimate operators, your mom's
>Internet connection seems of little importance.
>There are other ways to supply broadband.

>I thought Google pledged to not do anything
>'evil'.

>Don't go there...if you look at the history of
>Slashdot they're anti-Ham radio for the most
>part. Their reasoning is why stop progress for
>something that only 600,000 people in the country
>do. You know, the needs of the many outway the
>needs of the few.

>It's unfortunate that a company that wants to do
>no evil is investing in activity that will earn
>it the emnity of most every amateur radio
>operator in the country...</i>

And, very likely, the same nay-saying crowd posted their comments through a broadband connection!!

When did nerds become so damned pessimistic about new technology? With any new technology, there are technical challenges.

Calling Google "evil" or Slashdot "anti-ham" is as about as fcking childish as it gets.

Growing up in a rural area and now living in the city, I can tell you that there are MANY areas of the country without *gasp* cable TV!! Upper Michigan, for example, is largely "unwired" for cable or DSL! So what then? Erect hundreds of towers to broadcast wireless internet? This is a better solution than using the pre-existing powerlines that run into nearly every household?

A disappointing discussion, at best.

I am also a licensed ham radio operator.

Re:The odd thing about a nerd-oriented website...

[Anonymous Coward]

You may be a licenced ham, but you're also a technician (assuming you're KC8FBO). You have no HF privs, which are the main frequencies that are affected. The only band you have privs for that might me affected by this is 6m.

You may be a ham, but you certainly don't speak for HF operators.

73 de AC.

Re:The odd thing about a nerd-oriented website...

[wskellenger]

Thanks for taking the time to check and post my credentials as AC.

For example....

[KB3JUV]

Today, we had the very unfortunate terrorist attacks in London. Cell phone services were overloaded with users and internet service was slowed. Ham radio operators were ready to help and are ready for any situation. Another example is Hurricane Dennis coming up the coast as we speak. Amateur Radio operators are already getting equipment together incase the storm knocks crucial cell towers, and phone central offices. Power can also be lost. With BPL, you are pretty much screwed.

Re:For example....

[dagr8tim]

With BPL, you are pretty much screwed. And ham radio's don't use electricity? Barring generators, ham radio's are just as useless without power as any other high priced toy. No back to comparing BPL, to Cable or DSL. In the event of a storm, which service do you think will be restored the quickest? Your power, your cable, or your phone? With BPL, as soon as your power is restored, you have internet access. With cable or DSL, your still waiting after you have power.

Re:For example....

[KB3JUV]

You don't always need a generator. You can also use batteries since just about every HF/VHF/UHF transmitter runs on 12 volts. In the event of a storm do you know what will be restored the quickest? Your phone. Know why? The central office has huge banks of batteries that power the system when the power does go down.

of course

[St. Arbirix]

internet over broadband

Damn. Google's always one step ahead in innovation aren't they.

Now a cool idea would be internet over powerlines. We have VoIP over internet already, and we're working on TV over internet. How nice would it be to reduce the overhead of paying three companies for their services to paying only one?

Let's just watch and see what great laws the entrenched ones push through once they recognize BPL as a viable alternative to their industries. Who will win: cable and telephone or the silicon valley and utilities? It *always* comes down to media vs technology. Disgusting.

brilliant!!!

[Danzigism]

i think its GREAT that google is helping in getting this shit accomplished.. personally, I work at in office in a very rural area.. however, i can literally look across the street and see people that can get cable internet access.. for the past 3 years I've been trying to figure out some sort of broadband solution, but it will end up costing me tons of money.. Comcast says I need to pay them $3,000 to drill underground so they can lay cable.. thats bullshit.. satellite providers are a joke.. i can't deal with a fucking download limit.. so essentially, this internet over power line shit is the perfect solution for my fucking problem.. google, you could possibly be saving me and our business from destruction.. broadband will increase productivity quite substantially.. being that we're an online business that deals with hundreds of customers a week over the internet, you'd think I was ridiculous for telling you that there are 5 of us that work for this historical society, and we only have one dialup internet connection.. something needs to be done, but nothing can be done.. except this..

Must be nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess they are looking for a tax right off or something. This stuff just doesn't work. My city put this up in a 3x5 block neighborhood. It is terrible. They use 802.11 2.4GHz APs on the poles to distribute it. It doesn't even run into the house.

Real-time metering

[pensivepuppy]

From what I understand, BPL isn't about providing the broadband, it's mainly about doing real-time metering - allowing the electricity provider to charge different rates at different times of the day, etc. Could even lead to having appliances that watch the current price and reduce their consumption when the price is higher, etc. The end economic effect would be better allocation of power-generating resources.

Re:A new broadband option is welcome to me

[Fr05t]

How the hell is the parent a troll? Time to go do some meta modderating I guess.