Xbox360 Pricing, 2 Models at Launch

Tom writes "According to news in the LA Times, Microsoft will release two Xbox 360 packages when the console is launched later this year. The basic package will retail for $299 and will not include a hard disk, nor will it include a wireless controller, instead shipping with a wired pad. The second package will retail for $399 and will include a 20 Gb hard disk, wireless controller, wireless headset, Ethernet cable and remote control. No release date has been revealed, but a mid to late November date is expected."

Comments

well, that will probably be bad

[realmolo]

If the "cheap" model doesn't have a hard drive, that means that developers aren't going to use the thing in their games.

I assume you'll still be able to use it for saving games, but what about multiplayer stuff? Are new levels going to go on the memory card? And didn't I read something about MS using HUGE memory cards for the Xbox 360? Like, 1Gigabyte cards or something?

I'm just surprised they would split the market like that. But they're MS, they're crazy.

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[staed]

Isn't it possible that games will save your progress to a harddrive if one is present and if not it will save to a memory stick? Wouldn't be too hard to implement.

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[Steve525]

If the "cheap" model doesn't have a hard drive, that means that developers aren't going to use the thing in their games.

Bingo! The hardrive on the original Xbox was rarely used well anyway. A few games took advantage of it, but most games were released on multiple systems, and therefore didn't. The reality is, only a few games really needed it. By adding a hardrive, Microsoft thought they were adding a component that would make the XBox significantly better than the PS2. Instead they added a component that just made it a lot more expensive to build. (And unlike the other components in the console, a hardrive's price doesn't drop over time. Capacities go up, but prices don't go down). To avoid hemoraging money again, Microsoft needed to drop the hardrive from the Xbox 360. To maintain compatibility with the original, though, they needed to at least make it an option.

I'm just surprised they would split the market like that.

Perhaps, but as you and I said, developers aren't going to use the hardrive. People who just want to play Xbox 360 (not Xbox 1) games will be able to get by just fine with the base model. People who want extras, (downloadable content, Xbox 1 compatibility, probably some media options), will need the upgraded version. Many people don't care about these extras, so why should they pay for hardware to do it?

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[DrXym]

You say games won't use it, but the fact is that the XBox could make them use it whether they're aware of it or not. The simplest example would be if it cached content as it was read from the disc so it didn't have to be reloaded each time. A second example would be if it acted like an ultra large memory card for saving games. Another example were if it were used to "hibernate" a game so someone could walk away and pick up where they left off the day before.

Then there are games which could use it. For example, to download patches, extra levels and so forth.

Then there is MS touting the box as a multimedia hub (although in reality it was more like a dumb terminal). A HD could mean that it could rip songs, movies etc. to disk and play them on demand. And MS could sell video on demand - films, shows, trailers and so on, as well as distributing firmware updates, patches and more on it.

It seems pretty strange that they're going to piss this all away which is what they're doing.

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[Steve525]

In short, hard drive prices do go down, a lot. Especially considering that MS never upgraded the Xbox drive from the tiny 10GB hard drive it originally came with, it wasn't a significant cost.

You are confusing the cost per one unit (MB), when it is really the cost per the unit that matters. One a certain capacity minimum is reached, the hardrive doesn't get a whole lot cheaper. It costs nearly as much to make a 10 GB drive as a 160GB, since much of the cost is the assembly, mechanics, and electronics which are the same on both units.

Look at the web page you linked to. Until the mid-90's hard drives were expensive, period. In say 1997, a hard drive costs $330 (2.1 GB). In 2004, a hard drive costs $250 (250 GB). The price didn't change a lot, but the capacity went up (by 100x). Granted, there are lower capacity hardrives that are cheaper, but you see my point (I hope).

Sure, you and I might be able to buy a few really cheap 10 GB hard drives off ebay, or from a surplus shop, but with the volumes Microsoft needs, they can't.

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[beanball75]

What he meant is that hard drive prices have a floor. Cost per megabyte does go down, but overhead for manufacturing a hard drive doesn't.

Using Newegg as an example, we have a WD 40GB internal HD for $51.00.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16822140118

And a WD 80GB internal HD for $51.50.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16822144102

In the $50-60 range you will see 80GB and 40GB drives intermixed.

Manufacturers also tend to stop making drives no one buys like a 10GB internal drive. The price on a hypothetical 10GB drive would probably be so close to $50 that no sane person would buy one unless they had some capatibility problem.

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[alvinrod]

Any idea if Microsoft will be using regular HDs, or if they're going to have some sort of proprietary type that you can't just buy in a store?

For $100 I can get a 200GB HD that really could turn an Xbox 360 into a media center. 20 GB just isn't going to do it for me.

A hard drive actually has a lot more value to me than the rest of the stuff. Don't want to bother with batteries or charge times for a wireless controller. Don't need an ethernet cable since I already have some, can get them cheaper elsewhere, or make one if I really have to. I hope the remote control isn't required for DVD playback, which just gives me more reason to hack the sucker, but if it is I'll just use a DVD player. The wireless headset doesn't really do much for me either since if I mod/hack the box I probably won't be able to play Live.

On the other hand they could just as easily use some type of HD that I can't just go out and buy. Which means I'll probably be stuck paying $50 (or more!) for a hard drive that's maybe worth $20. If this is the case I don't forsee myself getting an Xbox 360 until there are some major price cuts.

I know I don't speak for all of us, but for some of us, the HD is probably the least useless part of the package.

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[Dinny]

Oh but Halo sells system. I think they might try to use Halo to sell more harddrives. It's certainly going to have downloadable content and push the 360 to limits. Why not go that extra step and require a hard drive. It would sell a lot of hard drives.

Re:well, that will probably be bad

[Phisbut]

Don't even joke about that. Of COURSE they will use a standard hard drive. Otherwise what are us folk who want to have a Microsoft subsidized Linux box going to do??!!

And don't forget to read the whole EULA before buying an Xbox harddrive, because they might try to pull a Hotmail on you and claim ownership to anything and everything you store on it. Ever read the Hotmail terms of service?

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[akhomerun]

haven't heard of memory sticks for the xbox?

Tell me, have you seen the front of the console??? The Memory Slots are RIGHT THERE!!

I'd say the $399 deal is pretty good considering it comes with just about everything, and given the fact that you can't buy a laptop hard drive yourself for under $70

Not a bad deal

[fewnorms]

So, a 100 dollars will get you a 20 Gb hard disk, wireless controller, wireless headset, Ethernet cable and remote control? Not a bad deal. I do wonder how many people would actually get the "no hard disk" version.
On the other hand, it's still an expensive piece of kit, and odds are the version without a hard disk will still have the connectors on the inside, happily protected by "warranty void when opened".

Re:Not a bad deal

[calibanDNS]

odds are the version without a hard disk will still have the connectors on the inside, happily protected by "warranty void when opened".

As I understand it, all models of the XBox 360 will support an external removeable hard drive; the $399 version just ships with said hard drive. If you get the $299 version you'll still be able to buy the hard drive add-on seperately without voiding the warranty or even opening the 360.

Re:Not a bad deal

[Enigma_Man]

I think the point is you'll probably pay $150 for a $50 drive, instead of being able to install any extra drives you have lying around.

-Jesse

Re:Not a bad deal

[Kjella]

So, a 100 dollars will get you a 20 Gb hard disk, wireless controller, wireless headset, Ethernet cable and remote control? Not a bad deal. I do wonder how many people would actually get the "no hard disk" version.

I'm sure they've had some psychologist work on that. That way, you draw the attention away from the $400 price tag and towards all the extras you get for $100. Same way burger joints typically have an "extreme" burger to make the "big" menu seem more "normal". It works wonders. I know many people that are that way, you make them pick the "good" deal in a set of bad deals, and they're happy with making a good deal.

I particularly remember one time I was with my mom buying an appliance for me, and she insisted on getting a 150$ more expensive one because she was getting $40 off, and it had absolutely no value to me over the cheaper one. Somehow that was a better deal than buying the cheaper one at retail price. I call it $110 down the toilat. I think the historic quote is this one:

"It is not because of the few thousand francs which would have to be spent to put a roof over the third-class carriages or to upholster the third-class seats that some company or other has open carriages with wooden benches. What the company is trying to do is to prevent the passengers who can pay the second class fare from traveling third class; it hits the poor, not because it wants to hurt them, but to frighten the rich. And it is again for the same reason that the companies, having proved almost cruel to the third-class passengers and mean to the second-class ones, become lavish in dealing with first-class passengers. Having refused the poor what is necessary, they give the rich what is superfluous." - Jules Dupuit, 1849

Kjella

Re:Not a bad deal

[Bobartig]

I remember a time when I was at [some fast food chain, probably McDonalds], and they had no small drink! It was Medium, Large, and Biggie-Extra-Value-Super-Fun-Size. On top of that, the Medium was the same size as the Large I was expecting. It was like I'd just eaten some teacake in wonderland and everything was fscked up.

Your burger analogy is from Wendys. They noticed almost nobody ordered the Classic Triple, and removed it from the menu. Directly following this, they noticed a steep decline in Classic Double sales. So they brought it back, and Double sales went back to normal. Somehow it legitimizes the "medium" purchase when there's an "absurdedly large" one that you're not getting. Its like ordering 2 x 1/4 lb patties with bacon, cheese, and fries the size of your head is showing restraint. (note: this is what i grew up snarfing as a teenager ;P ) That 3rd 1/4 lb patty would just be nonsense!

failure

[skatephat420]

What better way to make no one want to buy your system than to release two different systems off the bat. If they were smart they would hold off because there just isn't a market for a new system right now. I think I'll wait and get the final version, you know, when they are ready.

Expectations are the mother of all sorrow

Re:failure

[zoomzit]

$400? Ugh. They need to do something about pricing.

I just wonder how many gamers are in my situation. Right now my computer is a little dated, and when I think about it, I could easily dump $400 into my computer to make it better performer for games while retaining all of its other useful functions. On the other hand, I could buy the Xbox 360 with that $400 for games and still be saddled with a dog of a PC.

Why wouldn't I update my PC instead of getting the Xbox 360? I could get a damn sweet graphics card with that sort of cash.

Xbox 360s and PS3s should not try to be all things to all people. They should do games very well, and leave the rest of the "convergence" crap to the computers. It's just a bad deal for the consoles to run up against the PCs. It's especially bad for MS, who is ultimately putting their xboxes against the windows OSs.

Cutting it close on the release date

[G4from128k]

If they want a successful launch then they really need this thing out well before Thanksgiving. And they'd better have the retail channel well stocked for Black Friday (the day after Thanksgiving). Any production snafus or delays are going to kill holiday sales and create a bunch of unhappy customers.

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

My Xbox didn't come with an Ethernet cable either, and it works perfectly fine on Live.

And yes, if you've been paying *any* attention at all, the Xbox 360 will have memory card slots. They're very, very visible on the front of the console.

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[calibanDNS]

It even lacks Live capability since it lacks Ethernet.

The $299 version doesn't ship with an ethernet CABLE, it still has an ethernet jack on the box though.

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[Nairoz]

Well, it makes sense - when people complain about the price of the "deluxe" package, it can be pointed out that the "standard" package is cheaper.

A potential customer looks at the price of the standard package, then looks at the price of the deluxe one... "So I get all this stuff for a little bit more money? Ring me up!"

Plus it'll look nice in the catalogue... "Xbox 360, only $299!". Joe Average buys it for his kids, as it's "cheaper than those other consoles", not knowing it's about as useful as a brick without a hard drive.

So.. entry level or luxury?

[plasmacutter]

This seems rather polar.. you either get bargain basement or everything they can cram into it.. and no in betweens?

What If you don't want wireless? What if you play rpg's for hours on end and want the comfort your control won't run out of batteries, but still want a hard drive and ethernet?

Re:So.. entry level or luxury?

[calibanDNS]

What if you play rpg's for hours on end and want the comfort your control won't run out of batteries, but still want a hard drive and ethernet?

Then you buy the external hard drive as an add-on (it's a removable, external drive) and buy an ethernet CABLE. Note that both versions will have an ethernet jack, the $399 version just also includes an ethernet cable.

Re:So.. entry level or luxury?

[Metal_Demon]

"What If you don't want wireless? What if you play rpg's for hours on end and want the comfort your control won't run out of batteries, but still want a hard drive and ethernet?"

You plug in the wireless controller...(you can play wired with the wireless controller).

Re:So.. entry level or luxury?

[jargoone]

Dude, come on. He was looking for any conceivable reason to bitch, and you had to go and take it away from him. That wasn't very nice of you.

Actual LA Times link

[a16]

Why are stories being allowed where the author links to his own website, which just references an original article elsewhere so that the author can gain ad impressions?

The actual link to the original story is here.

Re:Actual LA Times link

[sweeney37]

not to mention that Major Nelson has confirmed it on his blog.

Mike

Re:Actual LA Times link

[a16]

I completely agree, except in this case the summary itself even says how it is originally from the LA Times article, and yet the link still goes to this guys site which includes nothing new or interesting other than a copy of what is said in the original piece (with less information).

Don't get caught up in pre-release rumors

[cyberlotnet]

To sell a version without harddrive would be stupid

1. Used for saved games
2. Free parts XBOX Live needs hard drive to save content

They would be killing 2 of the most important aspects of the gaming system if they did this.

1. Developers would be unable to rely on the ability of a customer to save games, customers would be turned off and annoyed once they figured this out

2. XBOX Live argueably one the reasons the XBOX was so successfull in the first place would be neutered which would directly harm there marketshare and continued dominance in the consule online market

Re:Don't get caught up in pre-release rumors

[Vo0k]

Yeah, So the customers go buy $299 XBOX and a week later $99 hard-drive extension, $49 wireless controller+headset and $69 ethernet extension. And developers just release games with notice "This game requires hard drive".

Re:Don't get caught up in pre-release rumors

[p0rnking]

Found it.
According to Microsoft's J Allard (who ever he is?), is quoted as saying in the September issue of Game Informer: "We've said [to developers], 'Hey look, don't bank on the hard drive always being there,' ... 'There may be a scenario in the future where we don't want to have a hard drive, and in that case, we have to make sure that the games that you've created are accessible to the broadest possible audience.'"

Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[denis-The-menace]

Theses days you can't buy anything smaller than a 60/80GB unless it's used.

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[Name Anonymous]

You can still get 20GB laptop drives easily. Also 1.8" drives come in 20GB size. Also, for OEM purchases, a disk manufacturer will make whatever the OEM wants (if it is technically feasible).

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[ChrisF79]

Ebay.

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[fwitness]

This is known as the "dirty little secret" of HDDs, that MS learned a bit too late. HDDs do not get cheaper anymore, they just get bigger. I suspect that this is probably going to be a laptop 2.5" HDD though, which you can stil buy in smaller sizes. For now...

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[alta]

Remember that story last year when someone thought it was newsworthy that Intel was stopping production of the P2-266? In light of that, I think 20gig drives should be easy to come buy, especially with all the mp3 players with them.

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[thegoogler]

actually, seagate's "U" series still has 20gb drives, and im farely sure western digital still sells them too. they wont be in your local $COMPUMART on the front shelf, but most online stores still sell them if you know how to use the search function :P

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[Otter]

Oh, I figured they were salvaging them from $50 iBooks from the Henrico County schools...

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[Anm]

I can get one right here.

Anm

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[hobbesx]

They are probably getting them here [ebay.com]

That would explain all the "R U 133T @ ebay? Make $4,000 / week!!one1" signs posted on the side of the road in the Redmond/Bellevue area.

Re:Where the hell are they getting 20GB drives?

[Anonymous Coward]

60/80GB with a 20gb firmware, exactly how the old XBOX hard drives were larger with a firmware that identifies them as a smaller drive.

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[Drooling Iguana]

So, in other words, bait and switch.

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[indie1982]

Well this has just flashed up on the BBC News latest news ticker...

"Microsoft says price of new Xbox 360 games console will start at £210"

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[akhomerun]

the memory sticks go in the controllers..

no, seriously, the memory sticks go in the console.

The Xbox 360

The Xbox 360 Controller (left)

IGN has more info

[fixmyship]

The IGN article has more info on the differences in the two versions. http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/642/642656p1.html/

Re:IGN has more info

[sriram_2001]

And here's the official press release http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/aug0 5/08-17EuropeNA360PricePR.mspx

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[indie1982]

In fact, here's the info!

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I hope so. You Britainers have to pay for extra shipping. You expect something for nothing?

I figured it to be VAT and import taxes.

It just works

[Jakhel]

Since there will be different versions of the XBox 360, does that mean that console game makers will now be putting "system requirements" on console games?

Wasn't one of the main reasons people said they preferred console games to PC games because they didn't have to worry about their system being able to handle running the game? Because it "just works"? Now console gamers have to be mindful of system requirements as well.

Re:It just works

[nburatovich]

Console game system requirements are nothing new. The N64 had a RAM Expansion Pack that was required for some features in certain games. In Perfect Dark, for example, one could not even play the single player scenario without the RAM expansion. I'm sure this was a reason, albeit a smaller one, why Perfect Dark never sold as well as Goldeneye despite its notable improvements, marketing hype, and acclaim.

The case with the Xbox 2 "Plus" model (my name, not theirs) is somewhat different. What the Plus model offers are more accessories than required parts. You don't need a wireless controller, a wireless headset, or a patch cable to play single-player games right now. These are extras targeted to the multiplayer crowd, or more specifically, to the Xbox Live crowd. The lack of a hard drive in the base model is really the only drawback, but as many have noted, its uses are primarily relegated to game saves or custom soundtracks. Only a few developers such as Bungie have taken advantage of the hard drive in the Xbox to do things like better level-loading.

What MS has done here is marketing, and I believe good marketing at that. Rather than sell a single unit with a bunch of premium accessories for $400, a price I believe the console market would find hard to accept, they have given consumers a choice depending on what they want and can afford. I would not be surprised if at some point down the line they sold the accessories that come with the $400 unit as an "Accessory Pack" upgrade for people who have the $300 unit, given that the HD is detachable. Consider: Xbox Live will be free on weekends to non-subscribers. Surely many owners of the $300 unit will have a patch cable and a broadband connection and will check it out sometime. I think MS is counting on downloadable content and the multiplayer experience to sell the accessories in the $400 unit to people who go for the $300 unit early on.

Re:Halo

[Gulthek]

You might want better info.

I own an XBox, but not either of the Halos.

It has never crashed.

Many people I know own an XBox for XBox Media Center.

I own it for the games. (Splinter Cell and Ninja Gaiden especially.) Most of which use the system's true 5.1 surround sound support.

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought you needed a Monster Cable Xbox Ethernet Cable to get the most out of Live. Your bits simply don't flow as smoothly through brand-X cables.

Wait, so...

[dividedsky319]

So lets see here...

Two different versions... And the more expensive version doesn't even come with a wireless adapter... that's another HUNDRED bucks.

Baaaaaaad move on Microsoft's part. Out of fear that their games won't sell as well, publishers are going to have to design their games to not need the hard drive... either that, or everyone without a hard drive is going to have an expensive paperweight when games still require the hard drive.

This is going to lead to a fragmentation of the Xbox owning public, which is a bad thing for everybody... the consumer, and the gaming companies.

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[wackybrit]

That'd be cheaper than the US price though. The US price for the basic one comes out at £195, so it's only a £14 premium at the end of the day.

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[kahei]

You think the USA makes stuff! That's adorable! Hold that pose while I fetch my digital camera! Oh, wait, there's one in my mobile :)

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[Anonymous Coward]

If we don't make anything, how the fuck do we make pollution?

Remember when DualShock came out?

[LanMan04]

Something similar happened when the original DualShock controllers came out for the original PlayStation. I remember picking up Ape Escape, and seeing the big warning on the back "THIS GAME REQUIRES A DUALSHOCK CONTROLLER" on the back. I figured it out, but then again I also read Slashdot.

If M$ has ONE thing different between the systems (like HD vs no HD), then maybe people will be able to tell whether a game will work or not. Add more required unknowns (Headset? Broadband?) and the whole thing will go to hell.

Re:Remember when DualShock came out?

[satoshi1]

The DualShock is a controller, though. It costs, what, $30 at most?

Re:how lame is this

[Trepalium]

The same Sony that removed the hard drive bay from the new slim PS2s? Frankly, unless you were playing FFXI, the PS2 hard drive was practically useless. The only people who ever really made use of a hard drive in their PS2 were people using HDLoader/HDAdvance to load PS2 games onto it and run them off there.

Wireless Controllers Worth Any Price

[davemabe]

I would pay $1000 to get rid of the mess of cables that I have with my current Xbox. What a mess!

Re:I've solved which of the next gen systems to bu

[turtled]

I'll get Nintendo Revolution (yep, I'm a fanboy). What I do like so far is that they have said virtually nothing; they are quietly learning from the other 2. On the other hand, Sony and M$ have over promised, built expectations and are figuring ways to under-deliver (such as M$'s backward compatabilies issues)

HDD experience vs no HDD experience?

[blankoboy]

So now we know that MS has taken us a step back in the 'next generation' of Xbox. We no longer have the HDD by defauult as we did with the first Xbox.

Apparently developers are not coding games to 'require' the HDD but I'm guessing it will be used for caching to allow for faster load times.

This begs the question, what will the gaming experience be like for a player who has the standard 'core' XB360 versus the person who paid MS an extra $100?

Will the cheapskate player have a lesser game experience due to longer load times? What will happen in multiplayer games? Will the person who obviously has more $$ to line Bill's pockets get all the good weapons before the player who is less wealthy (thus giving the advantage to the rich player)?

Next generation? More like, Next "iteration". Thanks so Microsoft. Ugh....

Re:Ignoring the inherant dangers...

[BackInIraq]

That, or have absolutely no titles on the shelves next to the console, which is kinda primo retarted when you think about it.

All these young whippersnappers whining about launch titles...back in my day, you were lucky if there were ANY launch titles, dammit. You bought the console, took it home, hooked it to the TV, and waited. And you liked it, dammit! Just kept the damn thing dusted, because you knew the titles would come out someday.

Okay, maybe that's a little over the top. But am I the only one who remembers the days of single-digit launch titles? Where you counted yourself lucky to have MULTIPLE launch titles?

Maybe I'm just old :).

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[coopex]

Sec. 238.0 Bait advertising defined.1 Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.

Since Microsoft has told developers not to rely on the HDD being there, it's clear that they aren't insincere about selling the $299 version, any more than Honda is insincere about selling a Civic versus a Accord. Take a deep breath and don't let the anti-MS paranoia get to you so much.

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[xonics]

whilst everyone has mentioned the ethernet and memory card aspects, i'd just like to take a moment and point something out:

"unless they plan on selling memory sticks, which I haven't heard anything on yet"

he's actually right...hold on squire, hear me out...they are not releasing 'memory sticks' because it doesn't use 'memory sticks' they use their own memory card. Why would they want to help Sony by using their 'memory sticks'?

Incidently, yes the HD is key to the XBox, but not the 360.

I think the starter package is just what is required, the softcore gamers don't want all the fancy pants wireless stuff, they just want to buy their kids the 'latest thing' without going overboard on price. I think MS have it right with this setup.

No Patching!

[Shook18]

Everyone is concerned about developers not being able to utilize the hard drive in the system, but think about it: half-assed games will not be able to be patched at a later date, which is a HUGE upside to the whole thing. Games will be fully finished by release day, not by "a few months later"!

Re:Dumbest "Package" Ever

[Pranadevil2k]

I know from years of experience arguing with my parents over which computers they should buy (because they refused to let me build one at half the cost..) that they will:

look at the price of the deluxe package first, and THEN they will see the cheap one and say "I save $100 for skipping out on these parts? Ring me up!"

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[doctor_no]

Once again Europe pays more. 299EUR($369)/£209.99($377) for the base version and 299EUR($491)/£279($506) for the "Value pack".:

Source:
Joystiq.com

Along with the announcement of $299 and $399 pricing levels for the Xbox 360 in the US, Microsoft has revealed European recommended retail prices for the two consoles and accessories. Not surprisingly us Europeans are getting shafted. Instead of £165/242 and £220/323 respectively (what US dudes will pay), EU prices are £209.99/299.99 and £279.99/399.99 for the basic and extra pack. That's £45/58 and £60/77 more! With such an inspired simulateous worldwide release day it'd have been nice if everyone paid the same price.

Along with announcing the console prices in Leipzig, Germany today, Microsoft revealed how much the accessories are gonna cost ya'. Here's a rundown:

Hard Drive (20 GB) - £69.99/99.99 (aren't there 120GB PC drives available for less than this?)
Memory Unit (64 MB) - £22.99/34.99
Headset - £14.99/19.99
Wireless Controller - £32.99/34.99
Rechargeable battery pack - £9.99/14.99 (lasts for 25 hours of wires free power)
Wireless Networking Adapter - £59.99/79.99 (eek!)
Universal Media Remote - £19.99/29.99
SCART AV Cable - £17.99/24.99
VGA HD AV Cable - £19.99/29.99 (very useful if you have a PC screen)

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000173054784/

Re:Just like SEGA

[NanoGator]

"Confusing consumers with multiple hardwares hasn't worked well for other companies in the past. Especially since the $299 360 is basically a doorstop. And if you say want a second controller and a game, you the functional version is gonna cost you $500 easy, on the first day."

Oh geez, this is getting irritating. Folks, I know we all hate Microsoft and all and we hope and hope and hope they fail, but it really is causing people to spew some strange comments.

Sega screwed up by offering multiple bits of HARDWARE, like the Saturn and the 32X, not by offering different packages at different prices. What Microsoft is doing is more akin to the strategies used by Sega and Nintendo both for the Genesis, SNES, and NES systems. Remember the 'Core' system that only came with one controller and a game? They also sold them with 2 controllers and a pack in game for more money. BTW, all three of those systems were quite successful.

Doorstop, yeah. No HD or a wireless controller is going to seriously inhibit gaming on that thing. Right.

Folks, I know it's fun to hate Microsoft and all, but aren't we scraping the bottom of the barrel for doom and gloom predictions?

Official press release on Xbox.com

[angle_slam]

No need to hear from third parties about this. The official announcement regarding tiered pricing is on the Xbox site. Here's the text:

Microsoft Announces Xbox 360 Price for Europe and North America: Starts at $299.99 U.S./299.99/£209.99

Feature-packed system brings high-definition gaming to the masses this holiday season.

LEIPZIG, Germany -- Aug. 17, 2005 -- Ending weeks of speculation about which upcoming video game platform will give gamers the most bang for their buck, today at the German Games Convention, Microsoft Corp. revealed that consumers can get their hands on Xbox 360(TM) -- the most powerful and feature-packed next-generation video game and entertainment system -- for as little as $299.99 U.S./299.99/£209.99 starting this holiday season. For gamers who want to experience the ultimate digital entertainment thrill ride, Microsoft also announced a model with hundreds of dollars worth of accessories for $399.99 U.S./399.99/£279.99, giving consumers the definitive entertainment experience at an unbelievable value right out of the box.

The Xbox 360 and Xbox 360 Core System -- along with an impressive lineup of high-definition game titles from the world's best publishers and developers -- will make their debut in North America, Europe and Japan in time for this Christmas holiday, several months ahead of the competition. Although details for the Japan launch will be addressed at the Tokyo Game Show in September, the unprecedented three-region launch signifies an industry first. The Xbox 360 platform will deliver the most powerful console, the best games, the next generation of the Xbox Live® service, and amazing digital entertainment experiences never seen in console entertainment. "The sheer entertainment value of Xbox 360 cannot be overstated," said Robbie Bach, chief Xbox officer for Microsoft. "While the system has the muscle to power awe-inspiring graphics, audio and online play, it's also got the intelligence to serve as a one-of-a-kind entertainment device that plays CDs, DVDs, MP3s and digital content from an array of devices, including portable music players and digital cameras."

With its built-in Ethernet port and free Silver level of service right out of the box, Xbox 360 also connects players to Xbox Live, the premier global online console games and entertainment network. With Xbox Live, gamers can chat with friends online, build and share gamer profiles, send and receive text and voice messages, and access Xbox Live Marketplace for new content such as game demos, trailers and casual games from Xbox Live Arcade. Subscribers to the Gold level of service will also enjoy access to online multiplayer gaming in their favorite games, as well as great promotional programs such as worldwide tournaments, the chance to play online with their favorite celebrities, and opportunities to win big prizes.

For gamers who want the ultimate experience (and the best value) right out of the box, Microsoft will offer the $399.99 U.S./399.99/£279.99 Xbox 360 console. This premium edition -- distinguished by signature metallic detailing on the console itself -- comes fully loaded for the ultimate gaming experience, with components and accessories that would cost more than $200 if sold separately:

• Xbox 360 console. Sexy styling that packs a punch -- three powerful core processors are poised to pump out 720p/1080i output, 16x9 cinematic aspect ratio, anti-aliasing for smooth textures, full surround sound and DVD playback right out of the box.
• Xbox 360 Hard Drive (20 GB). 20 GB and detachable, the hard drive allows gamers to store their games, music, downloaded trailers, levels, demos and community-created content from Xbox Live Marketplace.
• Xbox 360 Wireless Controller. Hassle-free high-performance precision wireless gaming features the Xbox® Guide Button for q

Real price of the XB360 base model is $340

[doctor_no]

People that buy the $300 version of the XB360 will need a memoery card since that version has no HDD and people will need to save games and logon to Xbox Live!.

Microsoft today announced the pricing of the Xbox 360 Memory Unit (64 MB)to be $40. So in reality people that buy even the base model will need to really spend $340 for the system. Since next-gen games are going to be released at $59.99, at the bare minimum the consumer will need to spend at least $400 to be able to enjoy the system. In reality the XB360 "value pack" only really cost $60 more.

Being that the Playstation 3 will allow users to use standard memory like SD/Compact Flash/MemoryStick (Sony has learned from their mistakes), I wish MS wouldn't lock consumers into their overpriced memory units.

Less reliance on patches?

[503]

People have complained about buggy games that were rushed to market only to be patched later. If developers can't count on the presence of a hard drive, which is critical for patches, will they have to spend more time on testing because deploying bug fixes may no longer be possible across all systems?

As someone who would rather wait for a stable release than deal with patches, this could be a good thing.

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[dhovis]

As far as I understand it, European prices usually include VAT, whereas American prices do not include sales tax (the closest equivelent we have to VAT).

So to do a direct comparison, you need to factor in that most Americans will pay additional sales tax (6-8% is typical), though sales taxes are all at the state or local level in the US, and some states have no sales tax.

You also need to account for the fact that most of these items are made in China or Taiwan and are shipped by sea. The shipping distance is greater to Europe than to the US, and that adds to the cost.

So don't just convert currency and say you're getting ripped off, I'd be willing to bet that it evens out.

Bad Move...

[Mark Gillespie]

Bad move. Developers will have to code for the lowest common dominator, the XBox basic, as they are interested in selling to the largest market possible. The result of this, is that games are crippled for the lesser system, and not taking advantage of the premium models HDD. The best thing Sony could do, would be to make HDD standard on ALL PS3's from the word go. Developers could then be assured all PS3 have HDD storage, and code their games to take advantage of this. This bad decision, and the decision to go with the inferior DVD-HD format could be the nail in the coffin for XBox360 before it's even born..

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[KDR_11k]

Different countries have different VATs here and they don't sell them at a lower price in the ones with lower VATs. Seems to me the markup roughly equals the most expensive VAT in the Union so lower prices where there are lower VATs would be feasible.

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[Bobartig]

You mean criminal? Pretty much every state with sales tax requires you to declare purchases made elsewhere without sales tax on your federal return. I take it for granted that nobody does this, but still, if you're going to break a law to save a few percent and call it smart, I'm going to propose the brilliant solution of stealing one outright.

Re:Morrowind Oblivion

[Criterion]

I'm guessing Oblivion (as well as Halo 3) will require a hd. System requirement on console game boxes is not a new thing :).

Re:I've solved which of the next gen systems to bu

[magicsquid]

It's good thinking on your part, however the gaming general public has no such memory of any over promises.

Does this ring a bell? "The PlayStation 2 will be able to render Toy Story quality graphics in real time."

Can it actually do that? Obviously not. Does the general public remember that quote? No they don't, and they don't care now. Those same people were the ones that were frothing in ecstasy at the thought of that power when Sony made the proclamation. Sony built up the hype and then when they under-delivered the public just didn't care, so why should Sony be concerned about over-hyping their product now?

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[doctor_no]

To say the hike in the extra money that Europe pays for their system is due to VAT or sales tax in a weak one. Europe pays over a 20% premimum over the US for pretty much the exact same hardware. There is no state that has anywhere near a 20% sales tax, and if sales tax was such a big issue there are numerous online sites that you can purchace from to avoid sales tax.

Not to mention the original Xbox was lauched in the UK for £300 and then dropped to £199 a month later.

Also, to argue that XB360 is more expensive because its built in China/Taiwan is also ridiculous. Pretty much everything is built in China/Taiwan anyways. There is a well established infrastructure to bring goods from Asia to Europe efficiently.

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[antifoidulus]

I have a question, so do the retailers all pay the same price for the system then? I just moved to Germany from the US, so I'm not very well informed about how this all works, but it seems that retailers who sell it for the suggested price in lower VAT countries would make out a lot better than in the higher VAT countries. For instance, does a German retailer who sells an Xbox for 299 euros(with a 16% VAT) make more money than a French one who sells for the same price(an almost 20% VAT)?

Re:I've solved which of the next gen systems to bu

[rasty]

What I do like so far is that they have said virtually nothing; they are quietly learning from the other 2. On the other hand, Sony and M$ have over promised

They named their next system "Revolution" and you say they're not over promising?

Re:Just like SEGA

[Osty]

The market cannot "fracture" as there is nothing keeping a user from buying a hd if he wants/needs it. I'm guessing games that do not take advantage of the hd when available for advanced features are going to be few and far between.

Tell that to Sony about their PS2 HD upgrade. Oh, wait, only two games took advantage of it, and it was so poorly received that the PSTwo redesign removed support for the HD entirely. Now the real question here is what do you mean when you say 'take advantage'? If you mean games can use it to save state if the hard drive is available, then of course that'll happen. If you mean games will use it to make your gaming experience better (caching on the hd to reduce or eliminate DVD load times, allowing for multiplayer patches, etc), then I really doubt that will happen. As an example, take Halo 2. It's designed in such a way that once you start the game you'll never see another load screen (talking single player here, not multiplayer where you'll certainly see load screens before each match). It can only do this because the Xbox 1 has a built-in hard drive that Bungie could rely upon. No built-in hard drive, no loading-free gameplay regardless of whether or not you bought the HD upgrade. It's that simple.

Re:Revolution

[jinzumkei]

Buying a console just on principle? Not into the whole "informed purchase" are you?

Re:UK buyers screwed again?

[i wanted another nam]

The government already takes 23% of my income out of every check. I have to pay fees every year just for the "privilege" of owning and driving a motor vehicle. I pay insane taxes on cigarettes and gas. I pay taxes on my phone line and my cable television. If you want to call me a criminal because I want to avoid paying a 6 percent sales tax, you can do that. I work my ass off for that money, and if the government has a problem with that, they can kick me the fuck out.

Actually, the best analogy is

[jbellis]

"just like the PS2 HDD"

nobody developed for it because nobody had it, and nobody bought it because nobody developped for it.

it's possible that 360+HDD will be worth developing for if MS can get enough people to buy it early enough... good luck.

Was Xbox, not PS2

[thatguywhoiam]

Does this ring a bell? "The PlayStation 2 will be able to render Toy Story quality graphics in real time."

Yeah that rings a bell. But not from history.

The quote you are thinking of referred to the Xbox launch, not the Playstation 2 launch. Billy G himself said it:

Gates said the 3-D chips in the Xbox would be three times faster than anything on the market and offer nearly unlimited graphical visuals. "We're approaching the level of detail seen in Toy Story 2," he said, referring to the computer-generated kids film from Disney/Pixar.

The original Wired article.

Somehow people keep repeating this quote as a Sony quote. I don't know why. I don't blame you - its very common.

Re:Was Xbox, not PS2

[ad0gg]

" The new microprocessor will allow users to handle nearly 50 times more 3-D image data compared with Sega Enterprises Ltd.'s (7964) Dreamcast game console. It will also let users produce game characters comparable in image quality to Walt Disney's Toy Story. "
Link

Sony was claiming Toy Story quality graphics with psx2 before it launched. Hence the phrase.

Re:Halo

[usernotfound]

surround sound? i've had maybe 7 or 8 people bring their xbox over to my apartment to hook it up to my HDTV and surround sound. aparently NOBODY had any clue they have to buy something else to get surround sound. atleast the PS2 has a built in optical connector. that's true support: not having to buy something else.

"Approaching" isn't the same thing as "equals"

[DeadScreenSky]

The quote you give simply doesn't state that the Xbox will be able to do Toy Story graphics.

(And the reason people keep pushing it as a Sony quote is because when the PS2 was announced you kept getting different people suggesting that it could do that. There's no official quotes because Sony wisely didn't make them, but it isn't a secret that they obviously fed that kind of comparison to the media somehow. There's no way all sorts of places would start making that comparison just out of the blue.)

Re:I've solved which of the next gen systems to bu

[WillAffleckUW]

I'll get Nintendo Revolution (yep, I'm a fanboy). What I do like so far is that they have said virtually nothing; they are quietly learning from the other 2. On the other hand, Sony and M$ have over promised, built expectations and are figuring ways to under-deliver (such as M$'s backward compatabilies issues)

So far for me it's a tossup between Nintendo Revolution - because they have more of the games that I tend to like and aren't so FPS-oriented - and the PS3 - which seems like a better system than the xBox.

Note: I currently own a GameCube and an xBox - but only own two titles for the xBox.

Pretty much for me - if it plays The Sims and it's variants, plus some cool Japanes and Euro games - you got me. Or if they come out with GTA: Seattle then I'll buy a platform that plays that.

Marketing for the future

[Infinity Salad]

Theory: they are puting out the X360 with a 20 gig HD now, so that they come out with the rumoured 'better' HD down the line, they can ship it with increased capacity and tout the higher capacity as a further improvement.

Re:Sony LOVES to sell peripherals.

[radish]

Sure it will have the slots. But where does it say that's what will be used for saving games? I can easily see that CF etc are only supported for displaying camera images or something like that.

As has been mentioned, Sony are the kings of add-ons ; they won't miss this opportunity.

Re:Just like SEGA

[PhoenixFlare]

I do think it's a mistake to sell the 360 without a HD. How is little Johnny going to save his game? I'd consider a gaming system without a built in save game solution to be a doorstop, at this point

I have no intention whatsoever of buying a 360, but c'mon, this is silly - "little Johnny" will just be able to use a memory card, like the PS1, PS2, Xbox, and Cube have been doing for years with no problem.

I really fail to see how having to do that would render the system a doorstop.