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Diebold Insider Comments on Voting System Flaw
Call Me Black Cloud writes "A Diebold insider is blowing the whistle on the company's continued lack of concern about security holes in its voting software. The insider wrote to Brad Friedman, a somewhat shrill political blogger, claiming the company is instructing technicians to keep quiet about the security flaws. This is despite the vulnerability being listed on the US-CERT website for the last year. A Diebold company rep admits the software can be remotely accessed via modem, but states, "it's up to a jurisdiction whether they wish to use it or not...I don't know of any jurisdiction that does that." The insider disputes that, claiming several counties in Maryland made use of the feature in 2004." This in addition to the fact that Blackboxvoting already hacked the system using a chimp last year.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The CEO of North Canton, Ohio-based Diebold, Inc., Walden O'Dell has been oft-quoted for his 2003 Republican fund-raiser promise to help "Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year." O'Dell himself was a high-level contributor to the Bush/Cheney '04 campaign as well as many other Republican causes.
Is this not a conflict of interest?Bradley Holt
To the plank with the Diebold Scaliwags! Arr!
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
Many Democrat Slashdotters are just hoping for a different version of "selected not elected" for the '04 election.
00' - selected by SCotUS
04' - selected by Diebold
"Scientists don't change their minds, they just die." -- Max Planck
And the voters in Ohio were made chumps.
Yes, it's been all over the news. What's discouraging is the lack of recount efforts.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Will we see a rekindling of war dialing?
http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/xclude/11 26861942142880.xml?jjournal?xclude&coll=3
I'm not taking issue with the submitter because I hear the term applied to liberals alot -- but I wonder when the alternative of stubborn complacency and "going along to get along" became ideals in our democracy.
Because you don't get things fixed thinking like that.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
I don't know what's worse: the frighteningly bizarre concept of a voting machine with no voter-verified paper trail, or the small group of people who defend this literally indefensible practice. It fills me with a sense of dread every time I hear another round of this story hitting the news, and it hasn't involved anyone going to jail yet.
Unfortunately, as geeks know better than journalists, there is no sane, moral, or legal reason for paperless touchscreen voting machines to even exist. Almost everyone who is knowledgable in this discipline gets it pretty quickly - because it's extremely obvious, and also because paper is integral to secure systems everywhere, from secure logging on printers in machine rooms to ATMs and even slot machines... You just don't store things like votes on non-user-verified, let alone rewriteable, media.
In fact, if I recall, the state of Nevada was a little while ago in the awkward position of having vastly superior standards enforced for gambling devices than they had for voting machines... although I think now they are one of many states that has put this craziness under some scrutiny...
Yet there really are a few people out there (I've met some on slashdot for instance) who argue to defend this practice anyway. These days, ignorance and stupidity is no longer funny. It's becoming terrifying.
If we lived in a sane country, the people who made these machines would be prosecuted, since their level of negligence certainly rises to the level of criminal even if they have no intent of their own to rig elections, and all of the politicians and bureaucrats who ordered, "evaluated," "tested," and approved these systems should follow not long after. We would know all this, prima-facie, even if Diebold hadn't had a pants-down security incident and exposed their internal emails to the world, showing us their gaffes in first-person detail. We would know even if direct results of their incompetence weren't widely documented
The simple, bedrock need for secure voting systems, and the absolutely impeccable engineering doctrines involving voter-verified paper, are almost universally accepted among credible experts. All explained many times before, better than I could anyway. It's inconceivable there is any debate at this point. Why would we have a voting machine that was deliberately made insecure?
The most credible argument I've ever heard (relatively speaking) is, "Who would cheat anyway? You're just being paranoid."
But you all know the answer to the question of who would cheat at election time: probably, the first person who thought they could get away with it.
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
If this guy had anything of substance to say, he'd have written to a more credible/influential outlet than "a somewhat shrill political blogger".
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
"In my opinion Diebold's election system is one of the greatest threats our democracy has ever known, and the only way this will be exposed is with a Congressional investigation with subpoenas of not just Diebold officials but Diebold technicians."
Yes, I'd agree with that. But good luck with a congressional investigation, they probably won't even be able to get a real room to have meeting about it. Just like Downing Street. Karl Rove is a genius.
What butthole did the democrats have there heads up when let this scam be part of the 2004 election? They had 4 years! How you can have a company with the contract to build paperless voting machines being run by a loyalist to the incumbant party and not have the opposition do anything about it - IS RIDICULOUS!
I hope there is an upset in 2006, or it is going to be another 2 years of a radical Whitehouse running around unchecked, digging the US into deeper holes at every turn.
But really, were is the outrage? I mean this is your democracy?!
From the article: In phone interviews, DIEB-THROAT confirmed that the matters were well known within the company, but that a "culture of fear" had been developed to assure that employees, including technicians, vendors and programmers kept those issues to themselves.
Has anything changed since 2000? I don't think so! Who thinks USA has anything to do with democracy?
will be said when you start to complain that Hitler v2.0 gets elected in the US Gov't.
"So what? You voted, you had your chance. *snicker*"
There's no proof offered, yet. I only skimmed the page, because it's in a crazy-blogger color scheme, but everything I saw seemed to be stuff seen on /. within the last year. Give us something new, something groundbreaking and (newly) newsworthy.
I don't think it's unreasonable for employers to demand that their employees keep a security information quiet.
However, keeping it quiet because they think that will improve security rather than fixing the problem is NOT reasonable. That's why we have whistleblower protections. A company that has this much of a role in our country - by way of their products - should be held to the highest standards. And from what it sounds like, they are not.
Which Diebold exec was the roommate of which politician?
It's only been a year?
Oh God, we are soooo screwed.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Voting using computers and allowing data to be accessed via the internet is just asking for trouble as it gives hackers an open ended chance to corupt the data. A computer that allows voting should not be hooked up to the internet at all. In fact, maybe votes should be counted on paper for the really important things
So much for the conspiracy theory.
If there were tight security, it would be too hard for dead people to vote. Wouldn't that be a shame?
Bury me in mashed potatoes.
why THE FUCK Diebold can make secure ATM machines but are such blithering idiots when it comes to securing their Voting Machines?
Putting on my tin foil hat, I don't think they are idiots at all. I think it was done on purpose. The bigger question is, why aren't WE doing more about this? The integrity of our democracy is at stake. How can shit like this be allowed to happen? How can we 'help' Iraq setup their new democracy when we are so utterly fucked up?
Yes, I'm mad. Mad at this happening, mad at this not getting more attention, mad at people who think I'm crazy for bringing it up. This is unacceptable.
*raises hand* I do. In a non-democratic state, you couldn't even make such accusations without having to fear imprisonment or death.
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I know, I'm asking for a lot. I was told by a coworker that it's a stupid request. After all, if I have an electronic voting system, isn't that suppose to eliminate the need for paper?
Bullshit. I'm sorry, but no - voting is not about how to do it the cheapest and most convienient for the government employees. The John Hummel Voting Ranking System goes:
1. Accuracy
2. Speed/Efficiency
3. Cost
So with that, my dream for the Ultimate Voting System goes like this.
1. Person shows up at the voting center with their ID. They are authenticated (whether this be by picture, or some sort of card reader, not important). If they can not be authenticated, then they get a physical slip of paper to vote with with the mark "Verify ID" and a number. If the ID is later verified, then the vote is counted. If not, then it can be placed in the "not counted" bin. (Not destroyed until 60 months after the election - this is to prevent too many "Whoops - we couldn't authenticate anybody"!) Granted, this ties into the problem with the "secret ballot" idea, but if you can't authenticate the user before voting, this is the next best thing. I'm sure someone could suggest a better method.
2. Assuming that authencated == true, then they are pointed to the voting machine. Voting machine is simple enough - a touch screen for "pick your candidate" with a picture, name, etc. If you're voting on a bill, then you can push a "detail" button to have a copy of it show up for your reading pleasure. Let it be handicap enabled with enlargeable text, comfortable seats (no forcing people to stand) and adjustable screens so folks sitting in wheelchairs can still access the screen.
3. Upon finishing, you are presented with a table of all of your votes and results, and a message reading "Is this correct?" If you select "No", you can change anything, otherwise "yes" means it's all good.
4. When you select "yes", three things happens. The vote is recorded to a local write once ROM device with a unique ID. This ID and voting information is transferred via an encrypted link back to some central location, so election results can be monitored in real time. The third thing that happens is a piece of paper is printed out with this unique ID and the voting information plainly printed out in the same table format you just read, perhaps with a bar code encoding the same vote results for quick tabulation later. You then drop this piece of paper into the voting box. The unique identifier is not related to the voter - just to the vote, so you can't tie in who voted for what, only that "some authenticated person" voted for something, and the unique ID is what they voted for.
5. Votes are now instantly counted. Upon finishing, all of the ROM media is removed and forwarded to a separate voting office - say, a separate division of the government - for validating. If the central office and separate office validate results, then the election is good. Just for kicks, a random sampling of the paper ballots are removed and compared (using the unique identifier) to the votes. If there's a descrepancy, you can pick it out quickly.
6. ROM and paper is stored for 5 years, then thrown out (by then, it's too late anyway), and available for public access by media groups/indepdant analysis.
7. Said above system should be written with GNU software, with MD5 and SHA1 hashes of compiled code made using standard GCC - version agreed upon by government officials at a specific date. Code is locked well before election date, and a copy of source and compiled code used is stored on the same write once ROM system (CD's should be fine) so anyone can compared and complain if they need to.
Whatever happens, no "proprietary" voting code, no "oh, it's secret to protect you dumb little voters" code - open, clear, and simple to validate and completely open to access. Anything less is asking for abuse, and I don't trust either party in the US not to have less-then-honest individuals hoping the screw things in their favor.
Of course, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
Let's end the debate once and for all and lobby Consumer Reports to evaluate electronic voting machines. Following is a link to their feedback form.m erreports.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?
http://custhelp.consumerreports.org/cgi-bin/consu
Abstinence is a government conspiracy. www.SafeSexZone.co
Yeah, Diebold would love a face transplant; it's a bit too late for them to save the current one.
modems, just find out the side and what phone numbers they use.
Typically, there won't be more than a few possible numbers.
Just hit those numbers and one will work.
Well, technically its war-dialing, but much easier,
faster, and less-noisy than hitting every number out
there.
Unfortunately, their chances of getting their candidate selected retroactively are quite low. So far, all the evidence seems to point that Bush was, indeed, elected for the second term (suck it up!). As far as I know (I must admit that my knowledge is based on what I've read from the press), there's no real evidence of any vote fraud. Even this 'insider' has no evidence of actual fraud.
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
not necessarily. the way that a government is elected does not have to have a direct relationship with how its laws are enforced, or what they are.
You know the old computer saying:
"Garbage In / Garbage Out"
I'm not surprised that the Diebold model number of the voting machines last election were GIGO 5000s.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
Okay, I've heard it all - how difficult it's supposed to be to deliver a concise vote, and that we all 'have to live with a certain amount of misvotes and irregularities'. Well, NO - WE DON'T!!! Look at banks - they process billions of transactions on a daily basis and almost NEVER get any of them wrong. Are there irregularities and mistakes sometimes? YES, but they usually figure out what went wrong and the numbers are precise at the end of the day. How often have you gone to the ATM and got a printout stating that you've got somewhere 'around 3000 bucks - give or take'? LOL!!! Seriously - I'm not saying we should privatize this essential aspect of our democracy, but if the banks can setup a system that's nearly flawless and does the same work on a daily basis that our government needs to do ONCE every 4 years, then I feel like we're all having the wool pulled over our eyes.
Damn I'm really pissed about this eternal bul...it - counting votes is so important these days and we all are acting like fuc...ing sheep...
Of course winning is all about whoever hacks the vote. Of course winning is about cheating, voting has nothing to do with it.
This is so unbelievably stupid I can barely stand it. 1) There is a reason why elections have monitors all over the place. 2) There is a reason why both parties are entitled to have their own independent monitors at each and every polling place to challenge votes. 3) While the paper trail (receipt for the voter and one for the backup-box) is a GREAT idea, it hardly constitues potential fraud; the "hacks" require the other protections in place to fail in order to succeed. 4) The modem is a great idea, but also can AND IS SUPPOSED TO BE managed by the local jurisdiction. 5) If I worked for ANY software company, I would expect that firm to DEMAND that I keep comments and revelations about EVERYTHING that goes on inside...INSIDE! How the heck is this any different? If Black Hat taught anybody anything, it's that companies have an expectation that their information will be kept confidential by employees and contractors who are required to sign agreements to same.
So, what is the news here? This is OLD news, and it isn't any different than news about some new hole in IE or FF, or Sendmail. The only difference is that if people are stupid then the losing party has grounds to appeal an election. Those of you that think...no wait...those of you that know that there are aliens living among us will also know that our system of laws doesn't work, and the hack will be successful. The rest of us are reasonably sure that things won't make it that far because Boards of Elections don't want the publicity, and Clerks of Elections want to keep their jobs.
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.
Never forget: 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
Who thinks USA has anything to do with democracy?i l.php?ResourceID=4
Wow- not to be an ass- but the US isn't a Democracy. It is a representative republic.
A true Democracy in the US would be sort of scary- Imagine mob rule. Think about it.
A well Written article on Democracy v. Republic
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/deta
Republic v. Democracy
by David Barton
We have grown accustomed to hearing that we are a democracy; such was never the intent. The form of government entrusted to us by our Founders was a republic, not a democracy.1 Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy:
[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.2 James Madison
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.3 John Adams
A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way.4 The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.5 Fisher Ames, Author of the House Language for the First Amendment
We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate . . . as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism. . . . Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to thy level of folly and guilt.6 Gouverneur Morris, Signer and Penman of the Constitution
[T]he experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.7 John Quincy Adams
A simple democracy . . . is one of the greatest of evils.8 Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration
In democracy . . . there are commonly tumults and disorders. . . . Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.9 Noah Webster
Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state, it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.10 John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration
It may generally be remarked that the more a government resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.11 Zephaniah Swift, Author of America's First Legal Text Click link for more
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
This mispelled drivel is "insightful?" You are fucking kidding me.
Anyone can go here and actually read about this if they want, instead of being a moron.
Several people with moderator points actually couldn't tell how stupid this is. Disgraceful.
We have only two parties that can get elected in almost any election in almost any state (the Libertarians and Greens win one or two once in a while, but very seldom).
Both candidates are given "campaign contributions" by (often foreign-owned) corporations.
The copyright "reforms" in the last 20 years were all passed by 100% of Senators and (iirc) 100% of the house.
The bankers were able to buy bankrupcy "reform" whereby a corporation can declare Chapter 7, but you can't any more.
As long as both viable candidates hold the same views on all the issues (views that have been paid for in cash), what difference does it make which candidate wins? And besides the possibility of jail or fiines, why should I obey their bought and paid for laws? Is it any wonder why so many young people these days profess themselves to be anarchists?
I, for one, would like to see some viable third, fourth, and fifth party candidates like they have in more civilized countries.
Here's a hint: why is the US the only industrialized nation without universal health care? The corporations own the government.
Were we to have a half dozen parties instead of two, perhaps fewer corporations would be able to afford to bribe all teh candidates, and maybe we would have a viable choice.
Now, here's a question: in the last Presidential election, the Libertarians were on the ballot in all fifty states. Ralph Nader was not.
So why was Nader talked up so much by the media, while the Libertarians were never mentioned? Could it be that the news outlets are all owned by the same people as the rest of the corporations?
Behind every evil corporation is a million evil shareholders. Are we going to continue to let them run our lives?
I, personally am not voting for any more Republicans or any more Democrats. I'm going to "waste" every single vote, from now on. Because the way I see it, wasting your vote is the only way to not waste it.
Is this not a conflict of interest?
Why? Are you saying that he (and everyone who potential works for Diebold) have to be somehow apolitical? If he had mandated that backdoors be put in that could only be accessed by members of his own party, then that'd be one thing.
that's one of the lessons they understood from the likes of the soviet union and nazi germany.
if you really want a tight grip, make sure no one even knows you have a tight grip in the first place.
in fascist america, there is no spoon unless the govt tells you there is.
anyone fool enough to raise their voice and tell the truth, is first ridiculed, then discredited, then meets with an untimely demise like martin luther king, john lennon. typically a small private plane is involved but sometimes it's a "crazed" fan or a "white supremist". never mind that the FBI and CIA have been caught numerous times impersonating others in order to meet their objectives.
that's what they learned... make sure the orwellian future looks like apple pie and the flag. and discredit anyone who says otherwise. and oh yeah, send other people's kids to fight for your pet wars. we're so glad we have a press and media that acts like a watchdog and not corporate and fascist cheerleeders, it might give the wrong impression to say, the deliberately uninformed/misinformed public.
and oh yeah, almost forgot. make sure you have shills patrolling the online forums. you don't want some poor citizen reading about things that show the esteemed govt and its cronies in a bad light. never mind that they earned every bit of their reputations, that's just heresay.
making people disappear is too obvious. it's better to make sure people think the person is crazy or find some dirt on them or just do what the presstitutes do, make shit up.
have a good day citiz... slave.
Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
Is if a third party won and not legitimately either, if it was hacked in their favour. Both big parties expect to win, so it'll kick up a huge stir if neither of them did. Imagine the media attention over the winner and then the diebold system in use.
Jonathanjk.com
Good for ye, matey! Ye remembered that today be Talk Like A Pirate Day!
Arr!
Get the facts read Project censored's No Paper Trail Left Behind:The Theft of the 2004 Presidential Election
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
Jherek Carnelian writers, "The difference is that if you want to burn ballots in the field, you have to physically go get the ballots, physically transport them, and physically destroy them. All of which carries some amount of risk of being caught by widely-understood, traditional methods of security."
Most cases of election fraud aren't "rogue anarchists," its the local political machine. Generally, it is done by the police, the Sheriff's office, or someone else in the local political establishment.
Online liberalism only focuses on the national political scene, but politics is a rough sport, and generally takes place on the ground... busing people to polling stations, driving around neighborhoods to "get out the vote," and the Sheriff's office losing/finding ballots...
It's a fantasy about how democracy works from an online-only world that ignores the reality that all politics are local, and there is only one election in the US that is semi-national (the President/Vice President, because while the mechanics involve electing electors, people vote for a national candidate). All the OTHER raises from school board/city council, through state legislatures, through the Congress, are all LOCAL or at most state-wide elections.
Alex
I, for one, welcome our new...wait...that's odd. I thought I voted to _welcome_ the new hackable overlords, but it says here that I actually voted to boil them in oil. Weird.
The guy I voted for in that election lost anyways. At that ballot box and overall.
Now, I'm not sure if the units that were in polls in VA were the Diebold units, but I did ask the polsters about the ones in my local poll station. They were "running Windows 2000 with wireless network access." I laughed all the way out of the door after I submitted my paper ballot.
: *raises hand* I do. In a non-democratic state, you couldn't even make such accusations without having to fear imprisonment or death.
That kind of retaliation would happen only if you pose a real threat or they have nothing to lose by imprisoning/killing you. For the US, the mass media ensures to show criticisms of the government and big corporations (which is becoming more and more the same thing), so you are not a real threat; on the other hand if government acts on you, they may wake some people up who have the illusion of democracy, so they do not. I gues when they really need to act they label you as a terrorist first. There are already many new restrictions on free speech. There are designated free speech zones during meetings etc. in the US! What the fuck does that mean?
ato
http://www.electiledysfunction.org.nyud.net:8090/C onyersOhioHearing_chunk_1.wmv
:-)
right click and save as.
glad to know there are so many Diebold and ES&S supporters on slashdot...
it's in wmv format but mplayer will play it just fine.
Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
Because you can go and look yourself, you fucking retard.
teh liberals/democrats want this system too. See how hard they've pushed for it in California. Defintely not a Republican controlled state (regardless of the RINO in the governor's seat), especially in the offices that push for this.
Tiem and again the people demanded paper receipts but California government (like usual) thought it knew best and disregarded the outcries and rammed the system home.
Before any of you Partisanista putzes starts up with more Karl Rove/Republican hogwash, look to the whole system. The same sleazeball powermongers, whether there's a D or an R next to the name. All part of the system, a system that knows better than you, knows what choices are "best", and thinks little of your opinions and values to choose what it's special interests (err, constituents) paid (err voted) for.
Support -
http://openvoting.org/
Not only open voting, but open source for the firmware that takes your vote.
They have been doing good things in California.
I hear the next version will vote itself. No more getting up and leaving the house. You get all the presidents you deserve just by sitting in front of the TV and complaining about the outcome.
You forget that with the Help America Vote Act, the country is supposed to be rapidly moving toward these devices. Many locations simply don't have the option (like the state of Florida) to stay with the standard ballots.
"If you don't like the machines, then use a freaking paper ballot!!!!!
We still use paper ballots in our town. You mark it.. bring it to a machine... the machine registeres where it is placed. Done. "
What if you are not offered the option of a paper ballot at the polling place? What if paper ballots are not counted unless the voting is 'close'? Who defines 'close'?
What about all the people who are unaware of the security/vote fraud issues?
"And who's having trouble with these machines??? Liberal towns!!! If you don't like/trust them... get rid of them. You still vote don't you? "
Yes, I vote, but unfortunatly, the voting machine replacements were not on the ballot. And they were enacted by an administration that was already in office. And in most places, the voting commissioner is not elected anyway.
Also, we're all having trouble with these machines. Just because liberal towns are the most likely to raise the issue before the press, their legislatures, and the people, doesn't mean that your podunk conservative town doesn't have a problem. Because any system that allows the potential for massive election fraud is a problem -- your problem, my problem, everyone's problem.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
As if the people will ever do anything about it.
All the people just show concern and surprise. They blog about it. Talk about it with your friends.
BUT NO ACTION.
So who cares. Move on, what else is new today?
What the heck is wrong with paper anyway? In Canada we've always used paper for elections. I'm all for efficiency, but paper just works and is reliable.
-- Bored? Check out my Portfolio
ATM machines. I want to change my choice from $40 to $100 via a backdoor!
/. is overwhelmingly against the Prez, and techies and programmers tend to lean further left then right, yet Bush won the last election. Go figure. Maryland did use Diebold, I know that firsthand.
And Kerry won by a lot in Maryland.
I love the sound of broken freedom dreams in the morning
Fraud doesn't have to be obvious, especially when using an electoral college system. In a close election a hundred votes here and there in a couple of counties may be sufficient to swing the college one way or the other. Such small manipulation would be extremely difficult to detect. Indeed, in an insecure voting machine you would cheat by deleting votes for the "wrong" side rather than by adding votes for the "correct" side. If someone complains, the machine has "malfunctioned" and without a full audit nobody is aware of all the missing votes.
I don't know what's worse: the frighteningly bizarre concept of a voting machine with no voter-verified paper trail, or the small group of people who defend this literally indefensible practice. It fills me with a sense of dread every time I hear another round of this story hitting the news, and it hasn't involved anyone going to jail yet.
;-)
That's because all these complex voting methods are too hard to understand!
We need a simple, easy to understand system, where we can be guaranteed the election will be as honest as in the days of our forefathers. Fortunately, such a system exists, and is both simpler and more straightforward than the modern, obfuscated systems it replaces.
All we need are two boxes. Each voter places a token of his approval into the box of his or her choice, representing his or her choice of candidate. The box with the most money in it wins.
--
AC
- A very targetted voting anomaly, sufficient to swing the election.
- A broad voting-pattern discrepancy between counties that used Diebold machines, and counties that used paper ballots.
The problem with the "broad voter fraud" theory is that the voting pattern held in both Diebold areas and paper ballot areas. Any conspiracy to steal votes under those circumstances runs into two problems....Finally, there is one more thing that needs pointed out. DieBold is not a Republican organization. Certainly, some board members may be Republicans, but others are Democrats. For example:
While there are inherent problems with electronic voting, the current allegations about Diebold and the 2004 election just don't hold much water.
"In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
Just because you can exercise free speech does not make a country democratic. Free speech is a right that exists apart from the political system and how it elects officials. Please do not equate the two.
In Iraq, there was a modicum of free speech, but no democracy. In 17th century England, there was also some free speech, but little democracy as we know it.
Just because you can speak against a regime, do not assume that that is democracy in action. Democracy begins with open and free elections that are full of checks and balances against fraud put up by independent auditors, things that the US system does not have at the moment.
Bush may have stolen two elections. By all accounts, the GOP will steal yet another one, if the people do not wake up to the dangers of electronic vote fraud and prevent it from happening again.
Actually that is why it appeared that so many people voted for John Kerry, I mean cmon, I know that alot of people said they were going to vote for, but when push came shove, no one in their right mind voted for him.
(Let the flames begin!!!!!)
Slashdot - Where the slash is most definitely to the left.
With an ATM machine, nobody has a reason to want to alter the results, except the person using it. The bank wants the ATM to be accurate. Ripping off consumers at the ATM would be supremely stupid since the amount is the proverbial fart in the windstorm, and they'd get caught and shut down.
So ATMs actually have essentially.no protection against the bank being fraudlant They contact the bank (via an encrypted channel, using IBM crypto cards) and ask how much money you have. If you have enough, they dispense it. The bank could easily lie to them, they'd never know. But that's not in the bank's intrest to do so, and banks are watched by eachother, the feds, etc, etc.
In essance, with an ATM, you can trust the operator.
Voting machines are different. You CANNOT trust the operator. It may well be in their intrest to alter the voting records. Perhaps they have been bought off, perhaps they have very strong feelings towards a party, etc. Point is you have to assume that the person who operates the machine ants to tamper with it.
Well that's a whole different problem. Now you have to design a system that is capable of not only keeping users (who only have access to a limited UI) from messing with it, but operators as well (who have access to the internals). That's a much tougher design spec.
If you give me a computer and tell me someone will only have screen, keyboard and mouse access, and ask me to secure it, I'll whip something up in a couple days and pretty confidently say there's nothing they can do to break in. If you tell me they'll have physical hardware access, I'm sorry, I'm afraid that's out of my league.
Why do you think Ted Kennedy is still a Senator in MA, even though he's universally reviled as a murderer and a drunkard?
Diebold actually sends out ads offering to guarantee a given election. Local votes can be had for a few hundred thousand, while something like the presidency costs 30 million or more!
They had a massive "Exposed process" fee for 2004 because of all the scrutiny that because of the 2000 mess.
The best part is, whenever anyone asks if they would have won without paying off the vote counters, the response is "Its in everyone's best interest if that kind of information doesn't even exist. You can't have a 'Deep Throat' if there's no trail to follow."
Great argument, but it means the party buying the elections have to cough up, even if they would have won hands down anyway!
Sinister. If only I'd thought of starting a voting machine company myself. I could be filthy stinking rich. No real R&D, just slap things together, ship consumer parts with a paint job and off you go!
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
There is no evidence because there is NO paper trail...
What's really upsetting is that so many people think all of these things are just coincedences or accidents, or are do to laziness. All of the information about Diebold's lack of security and the ease to which their machines could be tampered with was available to the entire world before the election - as well as the insane conflicts of interest involving the ownership of the company and their promises to deliver certain states to Bush. This, along with all of the reports (by credible sources including city and state governmental workers) of misconduct in Ohio and still ...barely a peep.
I mean, really, i'm not a democrat or a republican - but damn - I am sick of the US being run by criminals and corporations (of which many are run by or for the benefit of criminals) - and when I say criminals - these people are criminals - white collar or otherwise. People think Enron was the eception rather than the rule - well, sorry, that's not quite the case - it's more prevalent than that. I'm not saying all corporations are evil or anything like that...I'm just sick of people being in denial about how corrupt America business and politics and the incestuous relationship between them is. Apathy reigns.
I know the answer, but I can't help asking: Don't people know their history?
When business and government collude to this degree where business basically calls the shots with profit above all else it doesn't end well. There is a word for it actually.
Diebold needs to be put in check - seriously. Evoting with no paper trail or verification system is absurb - it pratically guarantees misconduct on some level.
In a non-democratic state, you couldn't even make such accusations without having to fear imprisonment or death.
For the love of all that is good and holy, will you PLEASE stop confusing concepts like that. "Democratic" is not the anti-thesis of "opressive", etc. It is for the purposes of proganda, but dammit, stop.
Not to mention the complete illogical nature of your statement "In a non-democratic state you couldn't even make the accusation that the state is not democratic". Come on!
If people didn't go all wide-eyed and emotional everytime a politician says "freedom" t them, then you might be able to actually have a functionning democracy, and not a bunch of sheep voting for who they're told to vote.
You can't take the sky from me...
You must, of course, keep in mind what the men you quote were trying to protect. They were owners of large pieces of property, they had considerable power in trade,colonial rule, banking, landlording, etc. They believed democracy was the most unstable and useless form of government for the new Union because it would first require a complete destruction of the present economic system. In other words, there would need to be justice in land rights and some significant break in the power of the upper class.
Alexander Hamilton (designer of the Stock Market, treasury, and most of our early economic theory) believed that a representative government in which the participants could be changed every few years based on the will of the people was "too unstable" for civilized government. He believed that there should be a 'President for Life' and established legislators who were unremovable.
In essence, we are not a democracy because our founders did not believe it was a good system. That is not to say that the masses of workers on whose backs the colonies were build agreed with the preservation of a stable but unjust system.
World Changing - News for Humans, Stuff about our planet
Here is the quote that matters:
rothschild - "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
This whole topic is a real drag but it's dead on. Since I don't have any mod points I'll just reply with a Here, Here!!! I feel really bad for my daughter who is going to have to grow up in this knee deep (hell - neck by then) $h!t. On a brighter note, eventually these cronies will all wilt up and die (hopefully without spawning too many clones) - a hopefully more sensible generation (us) will be in charge and maybe things can get fixed.
Oh, I've worked my share of support jobs. I'm fully prepared to believe that majorities can make stupid decisions.
For the record, I'm not a Democrat, nor am I referring (solely) to the last US Presidential election. My cynicism has reached such levels that it cannot be contained to any one political party...
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I can see why making an electronic voting machine is such a difficult task. I mean, the code to add numbers together depending on what button was pushed sounds like some really hairy stuff.
Lets see
if(button==1)
TirdSandwitch++;
else if(button==2)
GiantDouche++;
As you can see, there are millions of bugs that could happen in this scenario.
For the two largest counties in Minnesota, one has some sort of response to election security problems.
In Hennepin County the scanner system, not Diebold scanner machines, the precinct results were no longer modemed in to the county office but hand delivered in the September election.
Ramsey County Minnesota uses Diebold scanners with the suspect central counting software. Public Test of Ramsey Voting Systems
so much as right on target.
But when all the other "dirty tricks" are factored in, the electronic voting machine fraud that occurred in many other states besides Ohio, begin to look like a coordinated and concerted effort to effect the outcome of national elections by illegal means. The number of states employing fraudulent lists of felons to be barred from voting increased considerably from the 2000 election fiasco in Florida and Georgia -- the same company's database was employed in a dozen states in the 2004 national election to disenfranchise voters. Upon passage in Arizona of Proposition 200, which (among other things) increased the penalties for illegal aliens registering to vote, the voter registration lists in only one AZ county dropped by nearly 10%. (Check the archived news links at "www.cis.org" for details.)
The Republican controlled US Congress passed a $6 Billion USD piece of legislation to furnish electonic voting machines across the country after the "hanging chad" problem became public in FL in the 2000 election, but without establishing the appropriate standards and guidelines for security or recount capability. Until the US government investigates the increasing number of vote count fraud cases that independent investigators keep uncovering from the 2004 national election, this country would be far better off (small "d" democratically speaking) to revert to individual paper ballots (perhaps validated with the Iraqi equivalent of an indelible ink thumbprint.
The regime currently in power in the USA seems to have a very flexible and pragmatic view of what constitutes a democracy, here or abroad. Bolivia and Venezuela (both oil rich) have "corrupt" democracies that tend to favor the majority (poor) over the wishes of the elite. Taiwan has a democracy that the US Department of State finds "problematic" when they publically express their desire to remain independent of Communist China. The appearance of democratic "principles" in Egypt and Pakistan are far better than the Islamic revolution that would occur in either country with true democracy. But a neighboring country (Iran) that has a more valid claim to democracy is somehow another "corrupt" (but oil rich) oligarcical regime. Anyone else beginning to see the Dubya/neo(Con)artist hypocracy at work?
Something stinks in the USA, and it isn't the dead , bloated bodies of poor people in New Orleans. The $2 Billion USD it would have taken to fix the levee system there was diverted to the Iraqi war. The National Guard troops (and their equipment) were in Iraq instead of being available to aid the people of Louisiana and Mississippi in theri time of need. But the Dubya regime can NOW find the $200 Billion USD to fix the results of the hurricane disaster. It does not make up for the loss of life in any way, shape , or form. And watch the same defense/government contractors scrambling for their piece of this pork pie as have been feeding at the USA's Iraqi $$$ trough.
...You need an ID to drive that van, you need an ID to register that van, you need insurance in all 50 states before you can register that van, you need an ID before anyone will sell you insurance. If you don't have that van registered (and in most states, a safety inspection sticker) then it is legally a derelict/abandoned vehicle and cannot be parked in a public place and will get impounded as it constitutes a hazard to public safety.
We all knew who you were talking about anyway.
Anybody seen the Hari Hursti report yet?
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/BBVreport.pdf
^^TEH FUNNY!!11
jack ass.
Funny how we use exit-polling as an indicator of election accuracy when monitoring foreign countries, but over here it is quickly dismissed as unreliable.
Massive exit-polling discrepancy IS (circumstantial) evidence of vote fraud.
"The press" reporting there is no evidence of vote fraud doesn't impress me even marginally.
True, though in this election unlike the 2000 election it would take a few THOUSANDS to actually make a difference. And assuming the machines can be tampered with it's just as likely machines were tampered to favor Kerry as Bush (maybe more likely since it seems most computer geeks are democrats?). So that's kind of a wash.
There is no evidence because there is NO paper trail...
And this is why Diebold must go. I don't for a minute thnk election fraud in 2004 was any more widespread than any other presidential election, but can anyone *prove* it? OK, admittedly, even with a paper trail you can't prove there was no fraud, as ballot boxes can be swapped out in transit and such, but in practice this can't be done on a large scale without it becoming obvious due to screwups by the fraudsters.
With no paper trail, someone committing vote can have a huge impact with a very small chance of being caughtin the act, and no chance at all of finding the fraud afterwards. We absolutely need a system where intense scrutiny after the fact is likely to turn up evidence of the crime. This will be a much greater deterrant, but more importantly will give us a much higher confidence in the system.
Computer *aided* voting is a great idea. Have a touch-screen with pictues to help roor readers, have adjustable finst to help the vision-impaired, have an interface that allows the blind to vote in private, print a ballot that is guarenteed to be properly marked. But the result needs to be a marked ballot, not a set of bits. A completely seperate process can automate counting the ballots -computer-printed optically-scanned ballots work extremely well, with no sacrifice of a paper trail.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
The machines were SUPPOSED to elect Kerry!!!
The kind of shit you mentioned doesn't need any all-powerful institutions to happen. It just happens. There is no Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (tm) -- just the good old pragmatism and economic liberalism (that's Conservatism in American terms) that have been cultivated for...ages. Oh, and a lot of misinformed public, and some nutcases that shoot people (hey, it's not as if there aren't any nutcases in other countries, you know).
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
In addition to the Knoppix CD's we'll be giving the little ghosts-n-goblins, perhaps we ought to include a position paper on Electronic Voting.
Heck, at the next big game, chat with your non-geek friends about it.
Things are getting worse not just because the elected people are twits (there are a few good ones...) things are getting worse because the American people are electing jack-asses.
When was the last time YOU actually went to a library and did some research on what's happening?
How about Israel? Why are the Jews there in the first place? What's the big deal about Gaza? What do Moslems really believe?
If you can answer, how about your brother-in-law? He have a clue?
To pick up a current conservative thread - let's stop blaming other people, and take some responsibility ourselves.
Educate, people, educate!
I'm actually working on a research paper about Diebold right now. One thing I'd love to have, and maybe the slashdot community can help me, I'd love to have some ER diagrams or other technical documentation from them but I haven't (yet) found any. I've found stuff that blackboxvoting.org has done but I'm not sure I can reference it. If anyone can point me to something official from diebold I'll buy you a beer.
thx
Then, within that one state you just have to swing enough votes to tip the scales.
That means flipping half the difference. Using a made-up example, if the state of Bushsylvania has 10 million likely voters and polls show they'll vote 49% D and 47% R, you have to reverse just over 1% of the votes to push it to the R column. That's only 100,000 fraudulent vote reversals, or 110,000 if you include a 10% safety factor. Hell, it wouldn't even take much money to outright BUY that many votes, much less rig the voting machines. (Note that "ballot box stuffing" is less efficient than "flipping" -- to win Bushsylvania, for example, would require 220,000 phony ballots to be added, which is a much bigger task.)
And you might not even have to spend that much. If there are (say) four undecided states with the power to affect the outcome, go to the two with the narrowest margins, and twiddle theirs.
Remember to limit your exposure as much as possible. Restrict tampering to as few districts as you can. Prefer those with the highest numbers of voters, but with historically low turnouts. (Poverty stricken areas are ideal for this kind of tampering.) You don't even have to make every tampered-with district put in "wins" for your candidate -- you just have to reverse a total of 110,000 votes.
You want to keep it local as much as possible. Run it like a terrorist cell -- tiny groups of insiders who each know very little about the overall plan or about other people. Choose your fall-guys in advance, maybe plant some evidence 'in reserve'; in case someone turns coat you can blame a few overzealous campaign workers, and cut them loose before they start reporting further up the chain.
John
But til you can show me a Democrat who wouldn't do the same, I'll just have to file this under: "The whole system is corrupt."
In an ATM, the history of every transaction can be traced from beginning to end via an Audit trail.
This allows fraud and honest mistakes to be detected and fixed, after the fact. An ATM with buggy software may still be effectively secure, for that reason.
In a Voting Machine, the history of every transactiion MUST NOT BE TRACED from Beginning to End. In particular, the identity of the voter must not be traceable, in order to prevent coercion or the selling of votes. And yet, the Voting Machine must still be secure, in order to prevent fraud and to ensure that trust in the electoral system isn't undermined.
For that reason, securing a computerized, networked Voting Machine is MUCH HARDER than securing a computerized, networked ATM. So hard that it may be practically impossible.
Paper is still the most practical solution.
Anyone with half a brain can see the glaringly obvious single reason why Bush won the re-election. It was the gay marriage issue, and that issue alone.
Believe it or not... America is still a "family" dominated culture (though at the rate this country is going down the toilet, I don't know for how much longer it will be), and regardless of whether the family happens to be Democrat or Republican, the prospect of having widespread gay marriage forced down the legal throats of every state in the USA frightens the hell out of "family" America.
Not only is the system gamed, but voting is an immoral practice. It's fine if you want to choose who rules over you, but you have no right to choose who rules over everyone else, which is what you do when you vote.
People need to get off this idea that democracy is some nobel institution. There's nothing noble about trampling other people's rights simply because more people thought it was a good idea than not.
"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." -- Ambrose Bierce
I agree with most of what you said, but you fumbled in this paragraph:
Now you have to design a system that is capable of not only keeping users (who only have access to a limited UI) from messing with it, but operators as well (who have access to the internals).
That's a much tougher design spec.
Printing date, time and votes is a tough design spec? Oh, and adding some digital signature (RSA public key) to each of the votes isn't that hard, either.
Maybe you forgot about Florida's Kathleen Harris. Harris hired a private company--Voter Identification Services--to purge Florida roles of all the "darkies" because of their tendancy to vote for Democrats. VIS purged some 57,000 voters from the roles claiming they were ex-felons [more credible sources available--search left to reader as an exercise] and, therefore, ineligible to vote. Nevermind that their accuracy rate was a dismal 5% because their system passed judgment on name alone. If gross incompetence by the head of Florida Bush/Chenney isn't fraud in your book, I wonder what you require as proof.
signature pending slashdot approval
There is another election in 2006. This one is Congressional. Depending on the outcome of that one, Dubya may not have another two years.
There is plenty of evidence for impeachment, but only a few Congress-critters who don't have their own asses also hanging in the wind of corruption.
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
Which traditionally votes 100% democrat.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
If the system is 'gamed' then it ain't democracy.
Face it both sides cheat like dogs. It's been a cheating contest for at least 50 years.
JFK was elected via fraud in TX and IL.
Busting all these bastards red handed is the only thing that will give a third party the kick start that it needs. But every time someone is caught voting the graveyard it gets hushed up.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
There was a sci fi short story (I dont recall who its by or the title, I think it was a famous author though) where a machine would find ONE single person in the USA who was perfectly average and let that one vote decide the presidency, on the theory of why bother with the rest, they dont matter if you have a good random person who is going to vote like the majority would.
:)
We should do that
We also know that democrat operatives suggested that their people join the ranks of exit pollsters and deliberatly gender skew the results.
Bet next time the learn and don't record the genders of the people they asked.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You enter your vote and encrypt it anonymously. (It would need salting, to prevent trivial breech of anonymity by theft of the encryption key.) The encryption key would then need to be shredded or otherwise destroyed, if total anonymity was to be preserved. For nearly-total anonymity, you don't have to do this and you get the benefit of validation.
The server, on counting, then runs through the list of decryption keys for each vote. When it finds a key that decrypts to a valid vote, it records the vote and disposes of the key.
The total number of votes that should be recorded will be equal to the total number of keys minus the number of keys still left after all votes are counted.
An encrypted vote for which no decryption key exists (which will occur if two or more votes exist for the same key, OR if a vote has been submitted for an unlisted key) is then counted as a "spoiled ballot". In the case of duplicate votes, it would then be possible to use the decryption keys to determine the prevelence of voter fraud in a given district.
Since you can hand copies of the encrypted votes and decryption keys to anyone, without fear of threatening anonymity or risking voter fraud, it would be possible for others to independently verify the tallies.
Assuming near-total anonymity is fine, then the voter can validate their vote by obtaining the complete set of encrypted votes and decryption keys. They then run through the decryption keys, looking for the decryption key that matches their encryption key, followed by looking for the vote that matches their decryption key. The result should match what they voted.
None of this is impossible to implement. A paper trail would be a benefit, as you could then compare the paper tallies with the electronic tallies, INCLUDING the tallies of spoiled votes (although you cannot identify votes rejected for any other reason by means of paper). Paper would not be essential, though.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This link contains the full text version of the law as passed, the relevant section is SECTION 59.
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/fulltex t/hb244.htm
quoted sections, those not stricken...
Said chapter is further amended by striking Code Section 21-2-417, relating to form of proper identification at polls, and inserting in lieu thereof a new Code Section 21-2-417 to read as follows:
21-2-417.
(a) Each Except as provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, each elector shall present proper identification to a poll worker at or prior to completion of a voters certificate at any polling place and prior to such persons admission to the enclosed space at such polling place. Proper identification shall consist of any one of the following:
(1) A valid Georgia driver's license which was properly issued by the appropriate state agency;
(2) A valid identification card issued by a branch, department, agency, or entity of the State of Georgia, any other state, or the United States authorized by law to issue personal identification, provided that such identification card contains a photograph of the elector;
(3) A valid United States passport;
(4) A valid employee identification card containing a photograph of the elector and issued by any branch, department, agency, or entity of the United States government, this state, or any county, municipality, board, authority, or other entity of this state;
A valid United States military identification card;, provided that such identification card contains a photograph of the elector; or
(10)(6) A valid tribal identification card containing a photograph of the elector.
Except as provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, if an elector is unable to produce any of the items of identification listed in subsection (a) of this Code section, he or she a provisional ballot pursuant to Code Section 21-2-418 upon swearing or affirming that the elector is the person identified in the electors voter certificate. Such provisional ballot shall only be counted if the registrars are able to verify current and valid identification of the elector as provided in subsection (a) of this Code section within the time period for verifying provisional ballots pursuant to Code Section 21-2-419. Falsely swearing or affirming such statement under oath shall be punishable as a felony, and the penalty shall be distinctly set forth on the face of the statement.
(c) An elector who registered to vote by mail, but did not comply with subsection (c) of Code Section 21-2-220, and who votes for the first time in this state shall present to the poll workers either one of the forms of identification listed in subsection (a) of this Code section or a copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of such elector. If such elector does not have any of the forms of identification listed in this subsection, such elector may vote a provisional ballot pursuant to Code Section 21-2-418 upon swearing or affirming that the elector is the person identified in the electors voter certificate. Such provisional ballot shall only be counted if the registrars are able to verify current and valid identification of the elector as provided in this subsection within the time period for verifying provisional ballots pursuant to Code Section 21-2-419. Falsely swearing or affirming such statement under oath shall be punishable as a felony, and the penalty shall be distinctly set forth on the face of the statement.
---------------------
So why not require a picture ID? I do think that the state should provide picture IDs for FREE to anyone who does not have an otherwise valid ID. That was the only real issue I had with the law.
The fraud in some recent Georgia elections drove the need for some type of voter ID. The biggest complaint were reccounts where votes would just myste
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Something like 1000 people were caught voting in NY and FL last election. (Guess which party had the huge majority? Hint, how do 'snowbirds' vote in general.) None of them got in any trouble. They need to go up the river for a while.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Any of you notice that immediately after the 2004 election, Dibold was upgrading the ATM's at WAWA with these intrusive ATM's that have a black window right in your face wide enough to scan your eyes. It's really creepy having a camera right in your face, and I never use them. It looks like some sort of secret biometric scanning is going on.
US-CERT, the Federal "Computer Emergency Readiness Team" (cybersecurity) announced right before last November's elections (2004) a backdoor in Diebold's central tabulators:
" Diebold GEMS Central Tabulator Vote Database Vote Modification
A vulnerability exists due to an undocumented backdoor account, which could a local or remote authenticated malicious user modify votes.
Because they said "we are not aware of any exploits for this vulnerability", they rated the risk only "medium". Of course, when the machines were actually used live in November, it finally got a real world test, and no one knows (who's telling, anyway) whether any exploits "became known". There were, however, many opportunities, especially in Ohio, where thousands of people were cheated from voting by various techniques. And who would ever know if the "popular vote" was pumped up in states where the outcome was as expected, but not the expected margin?
--
make install -not war
In banking neither party is anonymous. If the bank screws up one of my transactions, one of us is likely to find out and attempt to have it corrected.
Since voting is anonymous, it's harder to catch or correct mistakes. Only mistakes or fraud in the counting are catchable, and only by redundant counting. But if the system does not record my vote correctly to begin with, there is no way for anyone to know that or to correct it. This is true of any ballot paper or electronic--witness the butterfly ballots of FL 2000.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Quit insulting chimps.
Note that the word "Democracy", when used in the context of government type, has multiple definitions. One of the definitions is "direct or indirect government by the people," which includes a representative republic. When people say "The US is a Democracy," they're not claiming that every government decision is put to a popular vote, they're claiming that the government is elected by voters.
Dispite the recent "bad press" the hanging chad has gotten, paper-punch voting counted by senior citizens is by far the simplest, most secure way of voting.
Not only do we not have to re-train voters, but the operators are friendly non-partial and reliable.
It's beyond stupid to try to tie this issue to one party or the other. Read up: Cook County, 1960, Kennedy vs. Nixon.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Dear Sir, you're paranoid.
I just have to wonder if you're paranoid enough.
I also found "heresay" to be an amusing typographical error. It seems to link hearsay with heresy.
*aarrgh*!
In future elections we may expect to no longer hear any such troublesome reports. The decade old was disbanded following it's troublesome reporting on the election in 2000.
There's a reason you don't let the inmates run the asylum, and there's a reason you don't drown the government in the bathtub, and there's a reason you don't let the generals run the prisons, and there's a reason you don't give the executive uncontested fiat in "wartime".
At least the Democrats aren't trying to turn Social Security into a giant game of Zapitalism, extend the estate tax into the blue horizon, lead us into destructive wars for no real reason, destroy their political opponents in ways that endanger our national security (Plame is one of many), gut Medicare...
Who could possibly say that if Al Gore had won in 2000, America would be in the same place it is today?
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
I've got ten bucks says it's a Republican majority. Any takers?
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Your example was an amazingly accurate rendition of how the Democratic party steals elections.
The bottom line is that both parties will do anything they can to either get or stay in power. It's shameful on both sides. Anyone claiming that cheating is only occurring on one side or the other is a partisan hack.
(similar to how anyone that claims their party is 100% moral while the other is 0% moral is a partisan hack)
I'm a big tall mofo.
Actually that is why it appeared that so many people voted for John Kerry, I mean cmon, I know that alot of people said they were going to vote for, but when push came shove, no one in their right mind voted for him.
I'm a real Republican (not a neocon) who voted for Kerry. Being a choice of lesser evils, it wasn't an easy decision, but I believe events have shown that I was in my right mind. If we get Hillary in '08, it will be due to Bush in '04.
What if someone like Michael Moore had stated in June or July that FEMA was staffed at the top with underqualified cronies, Homeland Security just wasn't up to snuff FOUR YEARS after 9-11, and that he felt terribly concerned that St. Louis and the Gulf Coast were in horrible danger of disaster. Can you just *imagine* the circus of punditry that would have followed?
...are themselves corrupt.
There is no other reason to put in use or allow the use of such a system that can and has been used to misrepresent the public vote.
You're on.
Folks are tired of all the bullshit that's been going on the past 5 years. There is nobody to blame except the party which has made a big deal about how they are in complete control. All of the spin trying to place blame elsewhere merely gets them in deeper. It's political quicksand, and nobody is interested in throwing a rope.
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
When did he/she mention a conspiracy?
You don't need a bunch of sociopaths to cooperate in order for them to do damage. Usually, the goals they pursue are similar not because they're "conspiring" but because they all want power over others.
It's quite a simple concept; it's amazing so many people miss it, thinking there has to be a secret conspiracy in order for people to do horrible things.
Once you convince yourself evil intentions can only exist in the form of conspiracy, then convince yourself conspiracies are extremely rare, you'll convince yourself that evil intentions must therefore be extremely rare. Your conclusion, however, would be wrong -- because your premise that all evil must stem from a conspiracy is wrong.
Fear of government oppression, free speech, and so on are not concepts that derive from a democractic government or the lack thereof. A government that is ruled by a benign monarch with absolute power may well be peaceful and prosperous with freedom of speech.
By the same token, a democracy may well be ruled by a tyrant that people vote for out of intimidation and fear, with very few freedoms.. perhaps the citizens have been programmed to fear freedom and the rampant individualism ( leading to new unsettling or unpopular opinions, questioning of the status quo, and social disorder ) that it brings.
Killing people who are citizens of a non-democratic government is just as barbaric and evil a practice as killing people of differing race or religion to impose your own religion or eugenic ideals upon them.
It's been going on longer than that, far longer than ol' shrub's been in office. Viewing politics through a big blurry W lens only hurts you.
There is nobody to blame
There's always somebody to blame. Hell, they don't even have to be a Democrat or a liberal, just painted that way.
All of the spin trying to place blame elsewhere merely gets them in deeper
The situation fell of the edge of cliff ages ago, and you think a few extra feet's going to matter?
I'll leave you with one last thought: A Democratic win in either House or Senate will just provide a bright shiny new target, one long caught in the headlamps. A win in both will only provide false comfort in them thinking the system still works, and that's it. I mean, be honest, do you really think they'll get anything accomplished between '07 and '09? Not only are the Republicans going to win, I want them to win. Things need to get a lot worse before they ever have a chance of truly getting better.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
In fact there's a bus that goes around providing them.9 371755&ty=dl
http://www.dds.ga.gov/drivers/dldata.aspx?con=174
Wow.. have you always been such a nihilist?
I kind of agree with you regarding worse-before-better. However, I don't see how things can get much worse without some long-lasting harm coming to the nation.
What I foresee is a repeat of the late 70s, where a national hangover from an unpopular elective war and the implosion of a thoroughly corrupt administration drains the national morale. I only hope that the American voters don't get further lulled into seeing some insane nationalist as a savior again, since that is what got us into our current mess in the first place.
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
From the post you linked to:
Of the 3,258 names on the original list, therefore, the county concluded that more than 15 percent were in error. If that ratio held statewide, no fewer than 7,000 voters were incorrectly targeted for removal from voting rosters.
Bush's margin of victory in Florida in 2004 was 380,978 votes.
From a personally standpoint. I have used diebolds other products and they didnt work when I needed them to. They were card readers designed to take out money from my student card and then start the washing machine. Unfortunately, the machine took my money and didn't start the machine. I had to get a refund from the school.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
This is slashdot. What is this "wife" thing of which you speak?
Given that humans are 98.5% chimp anyway, there's not much of a choice.
As the anarchists says, "No matter who gets elected, the government gets into office."
We Transhumans modify that to: "No matter who gets elected, an alpha chimp gets into office."
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Democrats are corrupt too. So, please ignore the Republican corruption.
I voted in a suburb of Columbus (pickerington, fairfield county) that is predominantly republican. I voted in a gymnasium of an elementary school... there were ~50-60 machines in the room. It took me 20 minutes to vote. I have friends that live on OSU campus and other precincts in Columbus that are traditionally predominantly democrat, and they had to wait anywhere between 2-6 hours to vote.
What has our democracy come to when those who vote a certain way are given precedence over others who vote differently? Was there a link between Blackwell being both the Sec. of State *and* the co-chair of Bush's ohio re-election campaign? If there wasn't, it certainly didn't do anything to help his credibility-- especially once stories surfaced about the horribly inept (intentional?) placement of voting machines by precinct.
It's deplorable, inexcusable, and I think they should be brought up on trial for it. And I'd say the same if all those being discussed were democrats rather than republicans.
Just like driving a car:
(D) to go forward
(R) to go backward
And assuming the machines can be tampered with it's just as likely machines were tampered to favor Kerry as Bush
Not just as likely- the President of Diebold didn't promise to do everything in his power to deliver Ohio to Kerry. It wasn't Republican counties that were shorted machines and given confusing lines without signs to make sure that people who got in the wrong line couldn't vote within the 24 hours alotted. And eyewitness reports didn't see the cursor jump to Kerry from Bush- but they did see the Bush button "click" when they pushed the Kerry button.
All of these suggest that Kerry MIGHT have taken Ohio- but since the head of the elections board was a Republican who refused to investigate these and other such anomalies in a reasonable amount of time, you're quite correct that there will be no day in court for Kerry. Add to that of course that Kerry's a wimp who decided not to press the issue.
Personally, there was enough circumstantial evidence that any county using Diebold in the future will be facing court challenges to prove the verification of their votes. As well they deserve.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Which, of course, the Diebold Employees have been threatened with. So therefore, goodbye democracy.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
American voters don't have any real choice in the matter- it's always between Candidate R who has been bribed by the multinational corporations or Candidate D who has been bribed by the multinational corporations. Either way, us human beings are just second class citizens- slaves to the profit machine that Hamilton started and the Supreme Court made our masters in 1886.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Soap-Box: Don't vote straight party, you are skipping votes for amendments, propositions, and probably judges.
There are four ballot issues coming up this election that would (among other things) take responsiblity for elections away from the secretary of state (while not eliminating the position nor the salary for it) and put it in the hands of an independent committee, as well as taking redistricting away from the majority party in the state legislature and putting it in the hands of another committee composed of an equal number of Republicans and Democrats plus an independent.
Parts of it seem kind of extreme, but lots of people want some change. I bet this November's election will be one of the biggest midterm elections in a long time here.
A case in point is the Consumer Reports evaluation last year of digital photo editing tools. The pool of packages selected was just downright weird and ensured that the MS package would be recommended by omitting PhotoShop Elements. C'mon. You can almost excuse the omission of Gimp, but there is no way to excuse the omission of PhotoShop Elements from the evaluation. Simply put, that level of omission is reason to call foul: Either it was bias, in which case CR is not qualified to comment, or else it is incompetence, in which case it is not qualified to comment. Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
Shouldn't that be: "...too late to save the current two"?
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
With apologies to Ernest Lawrence Thayer
The outlook wasn't brilliant for the student march that night;
The quads were filled with rent-a-cops and not a picket sign in sight;
With Cooney busted for possestion, and Barrows, the riot laws;
A sickly silence fell upon the supporters of The Cause.
A straggling few got up to go, in deep despair. The rest
Clung to that hope which "springs eternal in the human breast;"
They thought, If only Gay Concern could be rallying that mob,
We'd put up even money now, with Concern at the quads.
But Flynn preceded Concern, as did also Jimmy Blake,
And the former was a no-good and the latter was a fake;
Forlorn, that stricken multitude discouraged by the odds,
For there seemed but little chance of Concern's getting to the quads.
But Flynn let fly a bottle, to the wonderment of all,
And Blake, the much despised, set a bomb off in the hall,
And when the dust had lifted and men saw what had occurred,
Jimmy beaned the Dean of Students, while the bombed out library burned.
Then from five thousand throats and more there rose a lusty yell,
It rumbled through the valley, it rattled in the dell,
A Harley roared up from the street, and was tearing up the sod,
And Concern, Gay Concern, was advancing through the quads.
There was ease in Concern's manner as he wheeled into his place;
There was pride in Concern's bearing and a smile on Concern's face,
And when, responding to the cheers, he lightly gave a nod,
No stranger in the crowd could doubt `twas Gay Concern at the quads.
Ten thousand eyes were on him as he gunned the throttle loud;
Five thousand tongues applauded as he signaled to the crowd.
And while the nervous officers grabbed the night sticks from their hips,
Defiance gleamed in Concern's eye, a sneer curled Concern's lip.
And now a can of tear gas came hurtling through the air,
And Concern stood a-watching it in haughty grandeur there,
Close by the haughty Concern, the can unheeded sped --
"That ain't my style," said Concern. "Break it up!" the coppers said.
From the streets, black with people, there went up a muffled roar,
Like the beating of the storm waves on a stern and distant shore.
"Kill them; kill the pigs!" shouted someone from the mob;--
And Concern guns his engine, and wipes-out on the lawn.
With a fist of protest shaking, Concern's visage shone;
He jumped back on his Harley; he bade the march go on;
The Harley takes off through the quads, 'till it hits a vicious bump;
And Concern sails through the air, landing smack upon his rump.
"Fascists!" he screeched, "Capitalist, Imperialist, Racist, Sexist pigs!"
"If I must I'll ride a tricycle, but we'll have this march - you dig?"
They saw his face grow stern and cold; they saw his muscles strain,
And they knew that Gay Concern wouldn't lose that bike again!
The sneer is gone from Concern's lip; his teeth are clenched in hate;
He sniffs with cruel derision as he lets go of the brake.
And now he throws it into first, the clutch he now he lets go,
And now the air is shattered as the bike takes off - alone.
Oh! somewhere there's a campus town where they drum and chant all night.
They protest for the rain forest, and demand the wart-hog's rights.
And somewhere bongs are being passed, and somewhere radicals shout;
But there is no joy at Old State U -- Gay Concern has Wiped Out!
Yea, help america vote,
so they vote for me so I don't have too?
Or to make sure I don't vote incorrectly, as in some other candidate.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
Andy Stephenson was a leading advocate of voting reform, and an opponent of black-box voting systems like Diebold's. Early this year he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He needed money to pay for surgery, and friends of his began an internet fundraiser. Various folks at FreeRepublic.com, playing the part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, claimed it was a fraud to get money, that he didn't have cancer at all.
He did. He died two months ago.
Conspiracy? Maybe not. But it doesn't "just happen" either. People do it. People support it. People look the other way, and pretend we live in the most free and democratic country in the history of the world, and crap like that.
(Full disclosure: I've volunteered for a friend of his, Gentry Lange, who's running as a Green for King Country Executive out here in Washington State)
What incompetance? Not blocking even more of the voters likely to vote Democratic? Otherwise it seems they accomplished their objective quite competently.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
"Folks are tired of all the bullshit that's been going on the past 5 years."
You obviously live where I don't. My county is something like 115% Republican, and increasing every day. I live in one of the InfraRed states.
I like what one guy said. "I'm an American. Anywhere I'm standing is a free speech zone!"
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
"Diebold threatened violators with immediate dismissal," the insider, who we'll call DIEB-THROAT, explained recently to The BRAD BLOG via email. "In 2005, after one newly hired member of Diebold's technical staff pointed out the security flaw, he was criticized and isolated."
Ok... so this whistle blower who worked for Diebold went to The New York Times? No. Went to The Washington Post? No. Went to a... newspaper? No. This whistleblower went to The Brad Blog. Any questions?
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
That's for sure. I have to laugh at the Democrats. They blow off concerns about dead voters, illegal-alien voters, and repeat voters as just so much unavoidable noise and friction in the system, or at worst, a chance for the "disadvantaged" to level the playing field a bit.
But if anyone proposes a requirement for a picture ID, or cutting back on lax absentee voting rules, or weeding the rolls of dead people, or God forbid a white policeman should pull over a non-white driver on Election Day, and oh my god it's Voter Intimidation and back to the days of Jim Crow.
One is the flip side of the other. Adding an invalid vote for one candidate has exactly the same effect as suppressing a valid vote for his opponent, all else being equal. If one is immoral, so is the other.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
So what? I stood in line for four hours in my heavily Republican district in 2000. I made my kids stand in line too, as a lesson in civic responsibility. In the whole four hours, I only saw one person leave the line. We are broken-glass Republicans around here.
If these districts you mention are heavily Democratic areas, then someone needs to take the issue up with the presumably Democratic local election officials. Just like in Florida during the 2000 elections, when most of the alleged vote tampering for Bush took place in localities that were run by Democrats from top to bottom.
And I have no sympathy for any Democrat who finds a quart of malt liquor and a Jerry Springer Show rerun more appealing than taking a few hours every four years to exercise their right to vote. Fuck 'em, they don't deserve representation.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
This would've been such a great country, if, what the Commie propaganda of the former Soviet Union was telling us, was actually true...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
You cannot trust the user.
You cannot trust the operator.
You cannot trust the installer.
You cannot trust the developer.
The developer is the real ticket here. Given the ridiculously lax requirements that Diebold has been tasked with and a dialup backdoor, any chimp with VB Student Edition should be able to whip up a simple Access Database to let you adjust the outcome on the fly. That's one single person who has more political clout than any other individual or group in America. While it may not be true that every man has his price, I'm not willing to be Democracy on some guy I've never met (hell, I wouldn't bet on me...thats a fair pile o'dubloons fer a man w'a rutter o'tose seas. Aarr!)
You know you have a choice of candidates by voting in primaries, right? There are good Democratic candidates. There are good Republic candidates. The trouble is separating them from the run-of-the-mill politicians.
Voting in primaries can be more important than voting in a general election. Your vote counts more (less voters), and you have a chance to make the race between a good candidate and a bad one - as opposed to two bad ones. If the primaries are a failure, then the election can't go well.
But if a candidate with some actual principles makes it through the primaries, you can't take that away from him, and it can take years to chip away at his idealism to the point where he's just another politician.
Last post!
Quit posting to slashdot and get back to work!!
-W.
So how come we got a gamma this time?
I had an idea for a DRE {actually, DREM -- direct recording electromechanical} voting system which would be totally transparent to public scrutiny and amazingly cheap to build. Unfortunately it only works for simple, first-past-the-post elections; but here goes.
There are two parts to the system, connected by a multi-core cable. The Voting Booth Unit has a large rotary switch, which is turned around to one of the candidate's positions; a big red button, which is pressed to cast a vote; a meter with a simple red-green scale indicating whether or not the system is ready; and a large, low-leakage capacitor.
The Presiding Officer's unit has a battery, a switch and several electromagnetic counters - all but one of which have a metal cover screwed over them. On the inside of each cover is a paper label recording the counter reading when the cover was sealed. One of the screws is fastened with wire and a lead seal crimped over the end. The reading on the remaining, master counter is also recorded. A copy of each counter reading is also sealed in an official envelope.
Each candidate has their own counter; the coils of each candidate's counter are wired in series with the master counter, so that both will advance together. The rotary switch in the polling booth selects a current path from the capacitor {which has a voltmeter across it so the voter can see whether or not anything is going to happen when the voting switch is pressed}, through the voting switch, one of the candidate counter coils and the master counter coil. There is a switch on the P.O.'s unit which allows the capacitor to be charged from the battery {and the counters disconnected} or connected to the voting circuit; and the capacitor is a low-leakage type {paper dielectric?} so the only thing draining any charge from it is the voltmeter.
The voter arrives, and enters the booth. The Presiding Officer sets the switch to CHARGE and then back to VOTE. The voter turns the dial to their preferred candidate, makes sure the meter needle is in the green zone, and presses the voting button. The capacitor discharges through the selected candidate's counter coil and the master counter coil: both counters move up one notch. Now the capacitor is discharged, so there is no way to cast another vote. The voter spins the dial at random, so as nobody can see who they voted for, and leaves the booth.
If the voter is taking too long in the booth, the Presiding Officer can top up the charge in the capacitor. While this is happening, the meter will drop to zero indicating "not ready". When the master counter advances, the Presiding Officer knows that a vote has been cast and not to move the switch to CHARGE until the next voter is in the booth.
At the end of polling day, the counters are unsealed and the previously-recorded figures subtracted from the figures shown to give the number of votes for each candidate. The master reading is also checked and should correspond to the sum of the individual candidates' counts.
It's a direct recording system with instantaneous anonymisation -- there is no way to tell anything about the order in which votes were cast nor who voted for whom. It does rely somewhat on the diligence of the presiding officer {and to a lesser extent on the diligence of the voter}, but no more so really than the simple pencil-and-paper ballot we all know. When elections are not being conducted, any person would be free to examine the actual voting units. Sure it's low-tech, coming straight out of a turn-of-the-century telephone exchange; but sometimes you can have too much tech. The less science you rely on {in this case, the amount of current flowing through two things connected in series is the same}, the less chance there is for it to go wrong. Electromagnetic counters are hardly unproven technology; such risks as they pose are well understood.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Wait! You're taking a bet on the election after reading an article about how the voting machines can be tampered with and the election rigged, and you're betting against the folks who set it up this way?
Oh, sorry, the key to my rebuttal was 'after reading an article'. Forgot where I was.
It never fails. Whenever someone dares to criticize the current administration, Clinton's name gets thrown around.
Oh, Clinton made me do it. It's not my fault.
When will conservatives learn that blaming Clinton is NOT an appropriate response to the current administration's incompetence? How many more failures of leadership will it take?
Whether the ballot has a unique ID or not, the point is that I cannot go back and find my ballot after the fact to confirm it was recorded correctly. It is not auditable, unlike a financial transaction. That makes it harder to catch data recording mistakes after the fact.
That is why a paper printout is a must for electronic voting--it allows me to verify my vote in a medium that is not easily altered after it leaves my sight.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I am also a registered republican, fiscally conservative and somewhat libertarian socially, and my vote for Kerry was an easy choice last year. And that's not because I like Kerry.
Oh PLEASE. I'm really sick of hearing the old saw that Democrats and progressives "don't have a plan" because, not only is it tiring, it's also vastly a misconception.
Being in the minority party in both houses of Congress as well as the executive office--and with mainly corporate-run, Bush-beholden mainstream media outlets such as FOX and GE-parented MSNBC, Dems and progressives have scant voices to propose, let alone execute, any bills for real reform. Believe me, we've tried and still are trying to institute:
- Universal healthcare, at least on a catastrophic basis.
- A decent living wage on which hard-working Americans can survive.
- A true separation of church and government interests (that means get out of the White House, Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed).
- Quality and well-funded public education for every American child.
- Wars fought in defense only, and ONLY as a last resort.
- An end to exhorbitant tax cuts for the already-insanely rich.
- Preservation of a fair, equitable, and beneficial progressive tax structure.
- Fair and ethical business practices, within responsible capitalism, that are separate from government interests in EITHER of the two major parties.
Not a lot to ask, and not hard to implement given a cooperative climate in Washington as well as a balance of powers. The Dems at least seem to be amenable (to a fault!) to cooperating and compromising.However, the current band of Neo-Thugs doesn't seem to know the meaning of fairness, balance of power, cooperation, or compromise. Cloth-coat traditional Republicans exempted, the Neo-Cons and their followers want only to horde the wealth from not only our own coiffers but to steal it from other countries' as well--and they want to keep all of the power and wealth smugly (and snugly) in the hands of an overprivileged few. No wonder our country is going down the toilet at breakneck speed.
Progressives, on the other hand, want to see the wealth of our country benefit ALL Americans, and give ALL Americans a fair chance. Too bad the Neo-Thugs and their hapless followers are (probably deliberately) not listening.
Holding them on Tuesday only prevents the working class from voting. Who would want that? ;)
Don't read this if you're a hypersensitive Bush supporter. I mean it. Stop reading. I don't want to force my views on you.
I've been complaining about our government since I was 10 years old. Before I knew the difference between Republican and Democrat (it turns out the only thing that matters is which you were born into, just like your religion), I could see corruption everywhere, and worse, widespread obliviousness to this corruption.
I was smart enough to vote against Bush and Cheney twice (not FOR anybody) and I merely held Bush supporters in disdain as fools.
BUT, NOW I'M PISSED OFF! You gullible Bush voters screwed up my country. Every time I see one of your bumper stickers I just want to ram you. Take a look around! Gas prices? Iraq? New Orleans? Bin Laden capture? Plamegate? Look what you've done!
-----------
"Mod me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
There is massive evidence of fraud in Ohio. See Rep. Conyers' report: http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010605Y.shtml
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
See for yourself Skippy.
= 11856718
http://www.equalccw.com/dieboldtestnotes.html
http://midnightspaghetti.com/newsDiebold.php
http://www.votergate.tv/
Previously on "As the R00T is Hacked" . . .
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=141514&cid
~hylas
It never fails. Whenever someone criticizes the current administration for something that isn't the federal government's problem now and never has been, and then someone else retorts with an example of the same (or worse) situation that went wholly uncriticized during the previous Clinton administration, the Bush critic makes like he can't see the parallel or calls it irrelevant.
Oh, it wasn't a problem before and deserves no criticism even in retrospect, but in the case of Bush no holds are barred and he's responsible for everything since we must re-write the rules and ignore separation of powers as needed to provide an excuse to criticize Bush at any cost, including our own credibility.
When will liberals learn that it is hypocritical to call "incompetence" something that is and has always been constitutional standard practice and that even Clinton practiced just because a president they don't like is continuing to do it? How many more times with the liberals weaken their case and future chances of success by preaching hypocrisy to their own choir and failing to hear the murmurs of those they need to address?
Seriously man, I have a lot of beefs with the Bush administration but the response to Katrina isn't one of them, and it only makes you look angry, ignorant, and spiteful to latch onto such weak attempts to bash Bush at any cost when there are so many other good reasons (which stand up to scrutiny, even) to do so.
The Clinton example is a perfect one as it shows what the rules of law are in this situation that so many are crying about (but didn't when a president they liked was in office and dit the same.) This is called a double standard and most intelligent people can spot it immediately. If you want FEMA and the Fed to be primary responders and accountable for this problem, you're going to have to amend the constitution.
everything in moderation
1. Any license issuing office can give you a card.
x t/hb244.htm
2. If you cannot afford it you will be given one.
3. They are sending buses to many places just to get people the cards.
Sorry but when I last checked there were quite a few places inside of i-285 (the loop around Atlanta) where I can go get my card if I didn't already have a license.
Yes the law is faulty but it is not an attempt to disenfranchise. The cards are FREE to those whose income means the threshold established by the Federal government for the poverty level.
YOU CAN ALSO VOTE WITHOUT ID USING A PROVISIONAL BALLOT. The bill clearly states that and puts the responsibility on the local voting agency to validate the proof.
Here it is
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/fullte
See section 59 for the clauses about ID.
Damn I thought talk like a pirate day was yesterday, then again your just parroting the typical BS that comes out about my state. Hell the Democrats pulled a fast one on Republicans by getting us to vote for Sonny Purdue who only flipped a before he ran for govenor.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
There's always senate/congress/state primaries n/t
Last post!
On another note - it always amazed me how ANYBODY can have doubts about evolution; I mean just look at the president.
http://pollingreport.com/2006.htm
Folks are tired of all the bullshit that's been going on the past 5 years. There is nobody to blame except the party which has made a big deal about how they are in complete control. All of the spin trying to place blame elsewhere merely gets them in deeper. It's political quicksand, and nobody is interested in throwing a rope.
From the poll:
"Would you like to see your representative in Congress be reelected in the next congressional election, or not?"
YES: 57% NO: 25%
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
I know several people who would be interested in throwing a large rock, though.
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
A chimp would do a much, much better job (and is clearly more intelligent). I may not be some hard-core animal rights activist, but I sure wish people would stop insulting the simian population by comparing them with Bush! ;)
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
"An enormous number of people just couldn't vote at all because they didn't have the option of waiting that long" Absentee ballot. If they're too damned lazy or complacent to plan ahead, then they have to wait in line.
Its the 2000 election where harris's registration tampering won Bush the presidency.
The florida margin there was less than 1000 votes.
She should be in jail now, and should have been forced from office before the 2000 election when she became so heavily involved in the bush campaign in florida (she was the head of the state bush campaign for florida while supervising the elections in florida, a massive conflict of interest). The state official most directly in charge of the election should not be a high official in any campaign (except thier own).
Which is why the voting masses need to work up the gumption to vote third-party. Say NO to the continued reign of the Duopoly - one is just as bad as the other, you know. We need to work toward introducing Condorcet Voting so that everyone can vote honestly instead of strategically, but even in the meantime a surge of honest voting would help. Imagine what the reaction would be if 3rd parties consistently (not just in one year) ran even 10% in most races (not just one visible race) across the country? The Duopoly might sit up and take notice.
Constitutionally Correct