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Fingerprint Payment System Gets Financing

prostoalex writes to tell us Yahoo! News is reporting that Pay By Touch, an electronic payments startup that connects your fingerprint to your wallet, has received an additional $130 million in financing to move forward with their biometric payment system.

179 comments

  1. Oh, great. by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Now, thieves will cut the fingers off people they mug.

    Isn't technology wonderful???

    1. Re:Oh, great. by CryptoLogica · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Its already a method of stealing cars that have biometric access. There was a story awhile back (I think here on Slashdot) that mentioned a man getting his finger cut off when the perps realized they needed it to start the car.

      Biometrics is a technology we can do without.

    2. Re:Oh, great. by turg · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Now, thieves will cut the fingers off people they mug.
      Oh, yeah. The thief will just take the severed finger into the grocery store and use it right in front of the clerk. That'll work real well.

      Seriously, though, there are biometric devices that confirm whether the finger is the correct temperature.
      --
      <sig>Guvf vf abg n frperg zrffntr
    3. Re:Oh, great. by eLDeR_MMHS · · Score: 1

      Just wait for the retina scan!

      You ain't seeing nothin' no more...

      --
      -Victor Chow (Elder_MMHS)
    4. Re:Oh, great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn straight.

      Gimme five Bitch!

    5. Re:Oh, great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Seriously, though, there are biometric devices that confirm whether the finger is the correct temperature.

      That's why you carry them in your mouth until you need them.

    6. Re:Oh, great. by austad · · Score: 4, Informative

      Temperature can be fooled too with this technique, and it allows one to lift a fingerprint from just about anywhere, including the fingerprint scanner they just used.

      --
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    7. Re:Oh, great. by mwilli · · Score: 1

      Ew.

      --
      My sig beat up your sig.
    8. Re:Oh, great. by freeze128 · · Score: 1
      Oh, yeah. The thief will just take the severed finger into the grocery store and use it right in front of the clerk. That'll work real well.
      Why not? They don't look at your signature and make sure that it matches your name. Hell, they don't even care if you don't write WORDS! A new feature at fast food places is that you present the credit card, and you dont even have to sign if it's under $25.
    9. Re:Oh, great. by CsiDano · · Score: 1

      What about raynauds Syndrome. My Own mother suffers from this and causes her fingers to go cold. She wouldn't be able to buy groceries in the winter if the scanner checked temperature. For about an hour after being outside in the cold she has "dead fingers" they get all white and look kinda like deflated baloons. It's gross. Here's some back ground info. http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/raynaud/ar125fs .htm

      --
      piss off
    10. Re:Oh, great. by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "The thief will just take the severed finger into the grocery store and use it right in front of the clerk."

      Why pay $5.15 an hour for a warm body when this fingerprint system means you have less reason to have someone around to handle cash?

    11. Re:Oh, great. by twenex · · Score: 1

      How come any time fingerprint technology comes up on Slashdot, this myth not only arises but gets high points?

      Any biometric technology worth its salt has "liveness checks" or ways to combat this. Accuracy in biometrics has got pretty good (not perfect, but good enough for many uses), and the next great area of progress will be improving these checks.

      Also note, last I looked, this technology required entering an identifying code plus presenting the finger, raising the bar and eliminating "random" attacks.

      Finally, differing from cars, I think a supermarket clerk might just notice if you present a bloody finger for payment. It is an attended operation, after all.

    12. Re:Oh, great. by ovit · · Score: 1

      Good fingerprint readers have heartbeat and heat sensors... So that doesn't work.

      Isn't technology wonderfull?

      (friggin anti-technology slashdot crowd.)

    13. Re:Oh, great. by Jafar00 · · Score: 1

      Once inside the restricted area, eat the gummy finger and proceed.
      Lol. Eat the evidence :)

      --
      RebateFX.com - Spread rebates for Forex traders
    14. Re:Oh, great. by quentin_quayle · · Score: 1

      "Now, thieves will cut the fingers off people they mug."

      It has happened.

      Any arrangement that creates an incentive for criminals to increase their level of violence is a Bad Idea. Of course, the backers of these schemes don't care, because the risk falls on the users.

    15. Re:Oh, great. by fredklein · · Score: 1

      Oh, yeah. The thief will just take the severed finger into the grocery store and use it right in front of the clerk. That'll work real well.

      Like the cleark is going to watch you. Every time I use my debit card at a store, the clerk is never watching that closely.

      Seriously, though, there are biometric devices that confirm whether the finger is the correct temperature.

      "I just ran down to the drugstore to buy something, and forgot my gloves. The scanner rejected my fingers because they were "too cold"! That's outrageous! I demand to see the manager!! I want the number to your corporate offices..." etc,etc.

    16. Re:Oh, great. by fredklein · · Score: 1

      Good fingerprint readers have heartbeat and heat sensors... So that doesn't work.

      ANd heat sensors don't work if it's winter and you forgot your gloves 'cuz you're in a hurry to get some medicine for your kid. So, the ATM denies you the cash, the Debit terminal at the pharmacy denies you, too.

      Great system. I give it one winter before banks/etc have enough complaints to remove the 'aliveness sensors'.

    17. Re:Oh, great. by Demerara · · Score: 1

      And now you'll think twice when a friend says...

      "Hey, can you lend me a hand?"

      --
      Backward%20compatibility%20is%20over-rated
    18. Re:Oh, great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why bother going through the trouble of stealing someone's finger if no-one is actually there to check whether what you're paying for matches the merchadise you're leaving with?

    19. Re:Oh, great. by RicktheBrick · · Score: 1

      If someone would cut off another's finger than they would also have to kill that person so that the person could not call customer service and report it. They would also have to get rid of the body so that no one would find it and also report it. They would also have to insure that the victim did not have anybody who cares about them and would also report the fact that they are missing. The risk would far outweigh the benefit even if the victim had zero balance and a few thousand dollars of credit. Most store have video cameras which would give a fair description of the offender to the police. That would happen even if they somehow managed to make a purchase or if they were denied.

  2. As long as I can pay for gas with my middle finger by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... actually i'd like to pay for everything with my middle finger...

    Fucking sweet.

  3. Seriously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...what is wrong with my credit card?

    1. Re:Seriously... by slashname3 · · Score: 3, Funny

      You already maxed out that card. And with your credit rating, do they actually give out a 401 credit score, you can't get another one.

  4. Biometric is not secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Everything I have read about biometrics security amounts to this:

    Biometric security can be sniffed with a network sniffer and reproduced by the person with the sniffer. In short, biometrics is no more secure than a four letter password.

    1. Re:Biometric is not secure by sr180 · · Score: 1
      Yes, but you can change your password. Try changing your biometrics.

      --
      In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
    2. Re:Biometric is not secure by tboult0 · · Score: 1
      Not true totally true, that is only for a biometric operating at a 1% FAR. Biometrics can be much more secure, if used properly. A study in the UK presented at the recent biometric consortium conferences make it claer see http://www.biometrics.org/bc2005/Presentations/Con ference/Wednesday%20September%2021/Wed_Ballroom%20 B/Statham%20-%20Comparing%20Auth%20Mechanisms.pdf

      Biometrics are even better if all the communications are encrypted (which some do). With effort they can be as good as very long very random passords. But the real rub is standard biometrics cannot be revoked if it is ever compromised or someone in the company sells the data (like ChoicePoint sold financial data). While many slash-dot postings focus on lifting latent prints, the bigger long term risk is probably hacking into databases and someone that has never even been in the same city as you starts using your prints. Traditional biometrics are perment, so a database of them starts looking like a high-value

      There are technologies that make then even better such as the revocable technologies being developed by http://www.securics.com/ or the distorted biometrics by IBM http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/403/ratha.h tml) allow your biometric to be different for each application and can cancel one if compromised.

    3. Re:Biometric is not secure by scotbot · · Score: 1
      Biometrics can be much more secure, if used properly. A study in the UK presented at the recent biometric consortium conferences make it claer see http://www.biometrics.org/bc2005/Presentations/Con ference/Wednesday%20September%2021/Wed_Ballroom%20 B/Statham%20-%20Comparing%20Auth%20Mechanisms.pdf

      Because obviously such a study was totally independent and in no way biased towards the industry which in no way stands to make an absolute packet from developing and selling the technology to commercial enterprises ... :rolleyes:

    4. Re:Biometric is not secure by tboult0 · · Score: 1
      The results are no were near as "positive" as many in the industry would have liked to hear. E.g. the report says "biometrics" as the only factor are not a good choice and recommend a minimum of 4 digit pin in conjunction with a fingerprint. (So biometric-only login is discouraged..)

      Don't know the details of their independence, but it was not an "company" study but from "the UK Government Information Assurance Authority". I was trying to provide a place where people could find data. I guess you did not bother to to even look. :-S

  5. connects your fingerprint to your wallet by jasonditz · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's going to make it a bitch to type.

  6. information everywhere by firl · · Score: 1

    yeays, just another place that will log my fingerprint ... lets see people getting access to my personal information that I might not want hrmm, that must be good. I never liked the idea of even the government having my fingerprints on file, so I always opted out of it during the 'class' field trip to see what the government office was like. I like the idea of heat patterns for this instead because that doesn't leave a trace that someone can duplicate unless they have a thermal monitor and something to replicate it.

  7. Am I missing something? by turg · · Score: 3, Insightful
    From the article:
    Here's how it works: Customers sign up once, by registering a checking account or a credit card, and showing government identification such as a driver's license. The Pay by Touch technology records the lines and ridges of their fingerprints, and translates the data into a numerical algorithm that is stored in a secure database.

    [ . . . ]

    Pay By Touch is sharing the cost of each installation, and it gets a fee per transaction of between 12 and 14 cents, he said.

    That is cheaper than what stores pay for alternative payment methods, he explained. A credit card transaction typically costs a store about 60 cents for an average $25 purchase of groceries. A debit card costs a store about 50 cents
    But it is a credit card or debit/check card transaction. So how are the debit/credit card fees getting paid?
    --
    <sig>Guvf vf abg n frperg zrffntr
    1. Re:Am I missing something? by Kohath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Once you're identified, the store writes an electronic check from your bank account. The credit card companies aren't involved and don't take their cut.

      The system is much cheaper for stores than credit cards. 60 cents Visa gets is more than ~15 cents Pay by Touch + check costs

      I see these every time I go to the grocery store. I always wonder: what's the benefit to me? What do I care if the store saves 45 cents?

    2. Re:Am I missing something? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      It's not a credit transaction per se. You are granting the the store permission to take money out of your bank account electronically any time they want. You are trusting that they will actually only do this when appropriate, but you have no way to be sure. And once you grant them access to your account, the only way to cease their access is to close your bank account and create a new one.

      A number of people have had major complaints with companies that do this sort of thing - because they may and do just keep charging your bank account for things you are no longer subscribing to or use or want. And while you can tell them to stop - they still have access to your account and you can't make them stop. Period.

      Thanks, but I don't want anyone but myself to have access to withdraw directly from my account.

    3. Re:Am I missing something? by turg · · Score: 1

      It says you can register a credit card or a bank account.

      --
      <sig>Guvf vf abg n frperg zrffntr
    4. Re:Am I missing something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's ok, they will make it up in volume.

    5. Re:Am I missing something? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      And while you can tell them to stop - they still have access to your account and you can't make them stop. Period.

      This is why I never use my bank card for anything other then the ATM or emergencies. If someone commits fraud on my bank card, my bank account will be empty until I can get it sorted out with the bank. I know people that have had this happen and it has taken weeks for them to get any money at all, even from their direct deposit paychecks.
      Using the credit card get around this, because if I see bad charges on it, I can call up the credit card company and dispute the charges before I have to pay the bill.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    6. Re:Am I missing something? by JimBobJoe · · Score: 2, Informative

      The article does a lousy job at explaining that (I read that the 12-14 cents per transaction go to Pay by Touch.)

      The Merchant FAQ http://www.paybytouch.com/merchants/faqs.html> on the site says...

      What is the cost to me?
      As a merchant, you make a small investment in the Pay By Touch hardware and processing. This investment is quickly offset, however, by savings you'll realize due to less fraud, shorter tender times, payment type shifts, and the repeat business you can expect from offering your customers a better shopping experience.

      Can I really expect higher profits?
      Yes. In addition to the savings mentioned above, your bottom line will also be improved through the lower transaction costs resulting from your being able to influence your shoppers' payment choices.


      "Influencing your shoppers' payment choices" is alredy done at many stores--when I use my debit card (like at Target) a keypad will appear for my PIN--so that the transaction is run as a debit and not on the MC/Visa system (to run as a credit requires me to select "cancel" as I recall.)

      I believe the big savings are had by encouraging the customer to register their checkbook. Instead of running the transaction as a debit (ACH) or credit charge, Pay by Touch will try it first as an "echeck"--esentially a paper check but without the actual paper (at least, that's how I'm understanding things.)

      If the customer chooses ACH debit or credit card, then the savings aren't there (or Pay by Touch swallows the extra costs.)

    7. Re:Am I missing something? by Twanfox · · Score: 1

      Some times, debit cards wind up being backed just like a credit card is, with any transactions being disputable just the same. Now, while there is the whole issue of them pulling money from your account directly, it actually worked to my benefit once, when my debit card was stolen. I believe the thief charged gas to it, to ensure it was working, and then tried to go buy a TV or something. As I had all of $40 in my account, paying for gas worked, but the larger purchase failed. Of course, nowadays, they'd actually honor that and dick you around with overdrafts.

      All depends on the bank, I guess.

    8. Re:Am I missing something? by TheRealSync · · Score: 1

      You don't care if the store saves 45 cents?

      Where do you figure the store is going to get the 45 cents? In the end you are paying.

      --
      -- A good compromise leaves everyone mad. --Calvin and Hobbes
    9. Re:Am I missing something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is a little fact for you: A new expense is always passed onto the customer. A new savings is always passed onto the profit margin.

      Saving the store fourty-five cents results in the store getting a fourty-five cent profit, it does not result in me saving anything at all.

      I have already stopped shopping at Albertsons and Smiths because of their loyalty cards.

  8. Re:As long as I can pay for gas with my middle fin by coolcyber · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    lol. nice

  9. Cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is going to kick ass when I find out I have the same print as Oprah.

  10. shitest idea ever by timmarhy · · Score: 0, Redundant

    yes great when someone steals your finger print your fucked aren't you. not to mention it's the easiest to steal and duplicate

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:shitest idea ever by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      Very well said. It is incredibly easy. As shows like CSI keep showing, you can get a person's fingerprints pretty easily. Shouldn't be hard for an enterprising criminal to swipe a few fingerprints each day. Especially if he works around wealthier people, he can get "good" ones.

      But, it'd be hard to graft onto your finger, and you'd look weird swiping a piece of paper or whatever over the finger swipe.

    2. Re:shitest idea ever by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Depends, with some effort you can probably create a nice skin-colored fake patch to put over your finger. You really only need it to stay on and look real from a distance. You can probably even use a rather crude mold if you're decent at concealing it when using it.

    3. Re:shitest idea ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but at least at Cub Foods, you need a pin too. This just makes it so I don't need to bring my wallet grocery shopping. Also, the scanner looks more like a heat-pattern scanner than a fingerprint reader. It's opaque and doesn't have any lights.

    4. Re:shitest idea ever by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      if you need a pin then that's much better, because you won't get both without a lot of effort in which case it's more secure then existing cards.

      and it does state it reads the ridges of the finger print, so it's not thermal.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    5. Re:shitest idea ever by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      I suppose that's true. I forgot my own saying: "Never underestimate the lengths people will go for a 'free' lunch". I didn't think of using something like that because it would be relatively cost ineffective. If you have to pay a decent amount of money, and have no idea what the person has in his/her account, you could lose there if you don't get rich fingerprints.

  11. Which Finger? by NtroP · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have a chronic problem with the skin of my thumbs and occasionally my index finger. Do I get to choose and alternate finger? Multiple fingers?

    --
    "terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution
    1. Re:Which Finger? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what about the people with no fingers :-) Don't worry they still have toes

    2. Re:Which Finger? by nate+nice · · Score: 1

      Quit wacking it so much, it used to happen it to my roommate all the time.

      --
      "If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer ..."
  12. Wait a while by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Don't sign up for this right away. Wait a while for the bugs to get worked out, and for the early adopters to get robbed blind. Only when the bugs worked out should anyone who is technically literate sign up for this.

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    1. Re:Wait a while by LeonGeeste · · Score: 1

      If everyone did that, it would never get off the ground.

      --
      Rank my idea: http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/node/531
    2. Re:Wait a while by markdavis · · Score: 1

      Anyone technically literate, as you put it, would never voluntarily give their fingerprints to any government or business. Regardless of how "secure" they say it is, it WILL be obtained and used to make you a suspect in any crime or suspected crime where you have touched anything nearby. It *will* be used to obtain your identity without your consent in all kinds of creative ways.

    3. Re:Wait a while by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it won't work for about 1 in 250 people.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twins#Identical_twins

    4. Re:Wait a while by KillShill · · Score: 1

      yeah don't sign up right away.

      wait a while, like say 50 years or so.

      let the bugs be worked out.

      --
      Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
    5. Re:Wait a while by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. That's right. And if we're very lucky ... that's exactly what will happen.

  13. Unreliable by Cave_Monster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We use fingerprint technology at work. Without scanning our fingerprint (in addition to entering a personal code of digits) we cannot get through the door. On occasions this scanner fails to recognise your fingerprint and after a few tries, you either try a different door or get someone else to scan their fingerprint. I cringe at this to be used for payments for this reason, not to mention somebody using standover tactics and forcing you to pay for their purchase or even like the parent mentions, getting your finger cut off.

    1. Re:Unreliable by jmcmunn · · Score: 1


      Totally agree. Half the time the credit card scanners at the grocery store don't read my card as it is. I can only imagine how quickly the finger scanners will wear out and then you sit there waiting for the cashier to call the manager who is the only one that knows the special code to override the damn finger scanner...

      Credit cards (or better yet, something like the Mobil Speedpass) are perfectly fine for now. No need to spend all the money upgrading the systems just yet...

    2. Re:Unreliable by utnow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I can think of at least one thing that would make the system a bit more secure.

      When you sign up to use the system, they scan all 10 of your fingers. You assign one (one per hand?) of them as the proper finger(s), and the remaining fingers serve as ALERT fingers. So assuming (like in your scenario) someone is standing over you with a gun you can proceed with the payment (or whatever) as usual (aka, you don't get shot), and the athorities can be alerted that you're in a 'situation'. Just use the wrong finger. Since you set your own 'correct' finger, the guy/gal won't know you've done anything, and will at least think twice before putting a gun to your head and telling you to do it. They can't just cut them all off and try them all since the chance of scanning the wrong ones is too high (8 or 9 out of 10) unless they watch you do it before approaching you. I'm rambling... you get the picture. 3

    3. Re:Unreliable by Heisenbug · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When you sign up to use the system, they scan all 10 of your fingers. You assign one (one per hand?) of them as the proper finger(s), and the remaining fingers serve as ALERT fingers.

      That strike me as 1) an easy secret to steal 2) difficult technology to implement 3) pretty likely to yield false positives, either by misreading or by user error 4) way harder than just using a credit card.

      Sorry, I think I'm actually talking about the whole system here. Carry on ...

    4. Re:Unreliable by Anonymous+Luddite · · Score: 1

      Interesting idea, but I don't think it will work.

      People won't remember which fingers are "good" and "bad" - you'll get tonnes of false alerts. Ask your helpdesk guy how many people (the same ones) call in every monday for a reset - It's depressing.

      I don't think using a single digit for a password/token is too bright either, for a couple reasons:

      1. If you lose a password, it can be changed. If the algorythm that turns your fingerprint into a hash is cracked you're screwed - you can't get the helpdesk to "reset" your fingers. Perhaps change to different digit, but you can only do that nine times before you're taking off shoes and socks..

      2. Pretty far fetched, but this actually happened to me: what if you lose your fingerprint? I got my hand caught in something, and lost the end of a digit. If that was my password, I'd be SOL. What kind of hoops would I need to jump through to change to a different finger? What if you lose all of your fingers. Could someone carry a prosethic token or get manual overrides on every login?

      I think the whole biometric password idea is neat, but fatally flawed.

    5. Re:Unreliable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... not to mention somebody using standover tactics and forcing you to pay for their purchase not ...

      Because criminals can't force you to use your credit card or cash to buy something for them?

    6. Re:Unreliable by TGK · · Score: 1

      A lot of this assumes that people aren't stupid - an assumption I'm hesitant to make.

      Alternitively, a finger print system could store baseline data on the payee as well. Information like average heart rate, body temperature, skin conductivity and the like would allow the payment system to determine stress levels.

      An elevated stress level would then result in a security check, requiring that the payee produce photo-id and have a face to face with a teller or somesuch. While this would decrease the convenience of the system, it would serve to adequately deter theft.

      What about privacy concerns? I'm not a math guy, but it would seem that since the biometric would authenticate remotely, the authentication stream would be at risk. This is still suseptable to a man in the middle attack like a bogus ATM at the mall right?

      --
      Killfile(TGK)
      No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
    7. Re:Unreliable by utnow · · Score: 1

      well i somewhat agree... But I still think the system has merits...

      1. just because you've cycled through your 10 digits dosen't mean you can't start over on the first one. just pick a new random finger. The credit card companies are already watching for hammer style attacks (i've had charges throw up the fraud-flag with just 3 failed charges in 4 hours from the same terminal) so just trying all 10 until you find the right one isn't really an option.

      2. If you lose a finger-print you go down to the bank (or whoever issued your account) and simply apply to be re-scanned. or switch to a new finger. It's the same scenario that would take place if your card got destroyed. Just have it 'replaced' based on other identifying data. (driver's license?)

      I also see your point about about people entering the wrong finger and all that jazz... but I think putting a single correct finger on a pad is less brain-intensive than remembering a 4,6,8 digit password. Maybe harder than swiping a card (or tapping it on the rf detector these days).

      I guess the only point where I disagree with you is that I don't think it's fatally flawed. There's just some obstacles to overcome :D

      FYI: I'm not a fan of it anyway... I prefer my card.

    8. Re:Unreliable by vertinox · · Score: 1

      assuming (like in your scenario) someone is standing over you with a gun you can proceed with the payment (or whatever) as usual (aka, you don't get shot), and the athorities can be alerted that you're in a 'situation'.

      Or it spits out a $5 bill and a receipt that states you have overdrawn your account. Of course I already use that security measure.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    9. Re:Unreliable by Interesting+Perhaps · · Score: 1

      Hmmmm. So now perps who don't understand the system just cut off both of your hands instead?

      --
      {Videbat esse notitia bona id temporis}
    10. Re:Unreliable by ElGreg · · Score: 1

      What about the fact that the little finger reader at the 7-eleven is going to be all nasty from people swiping their dirty fingers across it all day? Gross! If there's one way to spread some avian flu around, this is it! Oh, and airplanes, too.

  14. unclean unclean by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Funny

    some dirty sod will sitck their finger up their own arse then use it no doubt.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:unclean unclean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I swipe my credit card down my ass crack every night before I go to sleep.

  15. Wow by Crixus · · Score: 1

    Is there anyone here who would actually USE this?

    --
    Ignore Alien Orders
    1. Re:Wow by 13bPower · · Score: 3, Funny

      hey buddy, thumb a hundred bucks to help save the clock tower?

    2. Re:Wow by slashname3 · · Score: 1

      Heck, I don't even use ATM machines!

    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My guess is no - you need money to be part of the system, to pay at Piggly Wiggly, and most slashdotters are unemployed and live with their mothers.

    4. Re:Wow by The+Cydonian · · Score: 1

      I don't know if this counts, but I enter/leave Singapore using a smart card that saves my thumbprint information.

  16. Wash my hands by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean I have to wash my hands now before I can pay after my dinner at a restaurant. Well it will save my shirt.

  17. COOL by Foktip · · Score: 1

    so... all i have to do to pay, is give them the finger!

  18. How do I... by slashname3 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    How do I get the tin foil hats to stay on my fingers now?

    And I have this neat idea for a glove that captures finger prints when you shake peoples hands...wonder if I should patent that idea?

    Now I just need to figure out how to setup a meeting with Bill Gates and shake his hand....

    Profit!

  19. Re:As long as I can pay for gas with my middle fin by KarmaBlackballed · · Score: 1

    Does it have to be a finger, or can it be a different body part? I'd like to pay for gas with something else.

    --

    --- -- - -
    Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
  20. Copy-proof? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One wonders how secure this is after seeing how relatively simple it is to create a fingerprint mold from nothing more than a residual fingerprint.

    The information in credit card magnetic strips can be copied, but the person copying the credit card must at least have physical access (even if only temporarily) to the card in order to make a copy. Using fingerprints, however, is like writing down your PIN on everything you've touched...

  21. No way by evil+agent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This can't possibly catch on, can it? I mean why would you entrust your confidentiality to something as insecure as a fingerprint? You leave it everywhere you go! Imagine that everytime you leave a room, you leave behind a piece of paper with your credit card number written on it.

    --
    End transmission.
    1. Re:No way by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      It would be motivation to wear leather gloves everywhere.

    2. Re:No way by fredklein · · Score: 1

      Bester! Is that You?!?

  22. MOD PARENT UP! by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously - have you guys thought how many FSCKING FINGERPRINTS are there in the streets? Any glass, seat, trash can, paper, door handle, glass, clothes, suitcases...

    sheesh! With credit cards at least someone had to steal it first! But now it only takes some scotch tape to do the job. What are those morons thinking?

    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by game+kid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Add me to the Mod Parent Up® petition. Thoughtful of both of you (parent and GP).

      More and more it feels like a shortcut for corporations to find targets for what I call PPA1.

      1 Professional Personal Annoyance, or "targeted advertising"

      --
      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
    2. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by panoplos · · Score: 1

      What most people do not understand here is that fingerprint biometric companies are working hard at creating methods of inhibiting entry with anything but live human skin: known as anti-spoofing.

      Coupling this with subcutaneous sensor technologies that image the live (saline) layer of the skin, spoofing the fingerprint biometric system becomes prohibitively nontrivial. (Read: the techniques needed to to crack the system are only known to the developers of the system, as the anti-spoof technology itself is highly secretive.).

    3. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by getwhipped · · Score: 1

      Mod parent down! He's the one who said there's fingerprints everywhere. If it makes you feel good, go to the toilet seat in my house and stick a piece of tape the bowl. After you're done giggling, have a good time figuring out whether it's even my finger, let alone the one I use on the scanner.

      --
      get whipped (you know you like it)
    4. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by fredklein · · Score: 1

      fingerprint biometric companies are working hard at creating methods of inhibiting entry with anything but live human skin:

      IS that why an average Joe was able to fool one fingerprint scanner (out of two he tried) with Gummi Bears??

      http://yahoo.pcworld.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,11657 3,pg,5,00.asp

      Gummi bears (Brach's Wild N' Fruity variety) were next. I melted them ... carefully spooned liquid gummi (avoiding air bubbles) into my ceramic molds to produce yet another batch of fake fingertips.

      The Defcon Authenticator's capacitive sensor, clearly recognizing that the object was a former Ursus gummius, failed to log in my fake print. The on-screen image of a fingertip did register a portion of the print, faintly--but that was as far as I got. I moved on to the U.are.U reader. Bingo! After I enrolled my thumb, the optical reader accepted the gummi bear imitation as my Windows log-in. It didn't get every gummi fingerprint; and the ones it did read, it didn't see clearly every time. But the gummi print worked, over and over again. I also managed to enroll a lime-green gummi as a user, and then used my thumb to log on. Gummi and thumb were interchangeable for log-on purposes, though my thumb wasn't nearly as delicious.


      And that's just some Schmoe with a handful of candy. Imagine someone who actually puts a few hundred dollars of preparation into it. Thin latex molds so his natural body heat 'shows' thru. Special compounds that react electrically like skin, etc.

    5. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by jupiter909 · · Score: 1

      You seem to be missing something here. Using a fingerprint instead of a bankcard, one would still need to have the PIN or some other form of information that would be given.

      I can create as many valid bank cards, credit cards as I want right now. The goods to do it are cheap, less than £50. The algoritms used to create bank-card/cc numbers are well known. So just as there are zillions of fingerprints out there, so too can there be millions of card numbers.

      The combination of verification and account are needed to do any sort of transactions.

      If you happen to own a credit-card, and if you have ever done large purchases using it, you would have most likely had to type in your PIN. Then gotten a call from the CC company asking you to answer a question from some information that ONLY they have on record, such as previous adress, favorite color, first primary school, last known adress, favorite song etc etc.

  23. Which, of course... by game+kid · · Score: 1

    ...would require a fingernail payment system.

    Not to mention a modesty curtain to shield your opinion of Big Oil from the kids in the back seat.

    --
    You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  24. Gives new meaning to doing business by a hand shak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, I am not in favor of such devices. piggly wiggyl is getting this ? What is wrong with this picture ? For those of you who have never seen a Piggly wiggly it is a lowend grocery store. I would think Walmart would be the first with this. ( Walmart already pushes for RFD ). Well I guess that money is driving the thing but before long money won't be worth anything ( the dollar ) and so better buy some gold. I think we should go back to specie with silver and gold coins as the currency, this is at least worth something and is more accountable. Besides I hear from a woman I used to date ( her parents own 5 banks in ohio ) that the banks in ohio have 65% plus counterfit money and that they can not tell the difference between the real and counterfit money. No wonder so many people from up north can afford to buy homes in the south.

  25. Can't use a dead man's finger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A rectal thermometer insures a live body is used during all transactions.

  26. For extra security... by Errandboy+of+Doom · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...change your fingerprint every 6 weeks:
    How To Fake Fingerprints

    1. Re:For extra security... by brsmith4 · · Score: 1

      Informative? I wasn't aware of fingerprints changing over time. However, if the parent was trying to imply that unlike passwords which can be changed, fingerprints cannot, then I would wager that his comment lies closer to 'Insightful'. Of course, the parent could have also been attemping to be humorous, which in that case, I apologize for killing the joke >:-/

  27. Thanks for the fingerprint! by game+kid · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Thanks for giving me your fingerprint.

    Well, you had to, to give us your 2 cents...

    I'd be OK with the whole idea if it would never be made mandatory for payments...

    --
    You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  28. the best part for purse snatchers/pickpockets by artifex2004 · · Score: 1

    Unless everyone starts wearing gloves, they'll be leaving their fingerprints on their wallets.
    Well, at least the leather ones. And if not there, then on their credit cards, inside.
    So now, the thieves just have to be extra light-fingered, so to speak, and then they can go back to their lair, turning the goods over to their boss, who has some tape ready...

    Good news is, at least Oliver will eat more regularly, since Fagin probably won't have to worry about PINs any more.

  29. You ain't seeing nothin' no more... by da5idnetlimit.com · · Score: 1

    caus' that's an anal probe...

    --
    It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
  30. Retinal Scanner by Dan+East · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Considering the patent is about to expire on retinal scanning, they ought to wait a few more months and utilize that type of biometric. It is much harder to forge, more accurate, and does not require physical contact (which spreads germs).

    Dan East

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Retinal Scanner by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      Actually, the patent already expired. Here's the previous Slashdot story covering it:
      http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/0 9/2011249

      Dan East

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    2. Re:Retinal Scanner by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      Considering the patent is about to expire on retinal scanning, they ought to wait a few more months and utilize that type of biometric. It is much harder to forge, more accurate, and does not require physical contact (which spreads germs).

      There is one basic problem with biometrics. If it is transmited, it can be intercepted. All I need to be able to do is copy the digital transmision of the retinal patern as it leaves the scanner (as in the physical scanner, not the "ATM" device) and play it back whenever I want to act as someone. Once one machine is compromised, it can be used however I like.

      Current ATMs already suffer from this problem, but at least I can get a new credit card issued. How am I supposed to reasonably get new retinal patterns or fingerprints issued?

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  31. Which leaves the question: by game+kid · · Score: 1

    Are Pay By Touch's machines among them? (TFA doesn't say...)

    --
    You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  32. Think about it 'with credit finger' by LIQID · · Score: 1

    Actually i don't know that it would be that much easier for you to purchase items fraudulently with a skin swipe versus a card. The hell would you do if someone came up to pay with a severed finger or a peculiar latex glove on the credit finger. I think it might be a little easier to pass with a credit card, especially since no one checks to see id. I think if they are getting hundreds of millions of dollars to piss all over R&D I think something somewhat knowledgable can come from it. That is unless google hires out all their talented people and then starts indexing finger print files.

    1. Re:Think about it 'with credit finger' by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      You can make a fake finger with gelatin. They're not THAT hard to make and once you have the technique figured out, lifting the fingerprint is trivial. Doorknobs alone are virtually guaranteed to give you your target's prints.

  33. Just one more token... by necro81 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am not a crypto or security expert, but I gather most experts agree that the more pieces of information you need to provide to be authenticated, the better. For instance, the combination of a personal password with some certificate/token on a USB key is (theoretically) better than either acting alone. Many of the comments in this thread make the point that fingreprints are pretty easily lifted and forged. So, perhaps it is not of much use, from a security standpoint, as a stand-alone authenticator. If, however, it was combined with another token, like the credit/debit card itself, then it could serve in place of the customer's written signature or PIN. That would require a perpetrator to have, at least for a little while, physical access to the card, as well as a print, before going out and defrauding the customer. Using a fingerprint would probably be a little better than using a written signature, which no one ever checks anyway, can also be forged, and could easily be lifted from a number of public documents (or, for that matter, the card itself).

    Anyone think this idea, of combining fingerprints with a physical token, have any merit? Naturally this system could still be forged or broken, but would it be more or less hard to break than the current system of cards and signature/PINs? I think we all have to recognize that, if a perpetrator specifically targets you, it won't be too difficult for them to nail you, but what about more casual and random defrauders?

    1. Re:Just one more token... by Merovign · · Score: 1


      So to buy something, you have to swipe your card, have your thumb scanned, look into the retinal scanner, provide saliva, stool, and urine samples. To get your Dove bar and Chocolate Milk.

      "Cash."

      The more complicated these systems become, the less retailers will want to deal with it. I mean, Discover can't be the first one to do this or no one will take Discover anymore.

    2. Re:Just one more token... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about a common touch pad for finger print authentication as a vector for disease transmission? Isn't this a bad idea?

    3. Re:Just one more token... by Bhodi · · Score: 1

      Something you know, something you have, something you ... are?

    4. Re:Just one more token... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All I want is a credit card that requires a password to use. Not a fucking 4 digit PIN, but a genuine 12 character garbage password. For cards with multiple holders, there should be a separate password for each holder. It would be nice if cashiers actually checked ID also.

    5. Re:Just one more token... by patio11 · · Score: 1
      Combining the fingerprint with a physical token sounds like a great idea... assuming you can convince all customers to manipulate that token using only their toes, so as not to leave fingerprints all over it. Its like requiring a password from everyone who presents a credit card to you -- handily recorded on the reverse side of the credit card in case they forget it!

      The scary thing is people actually DO that... but thats largely to "prove" physical access to the card in the context of an Internet transaction.

  34. HEY PAY BY TOUCH, read this finger! by phiberhack · · Score: 2, Funny

    :)

  35. Oblig. Back to the Future by roughapprox · · Score: 3, Funny

    Hey kid, thumb a hundred bucks will ya, help save the clocktower.

  36. Brilliant! by Neuropol · · Score: 0

    Perhaps they can implement it just in time for the spreading of Bird Flu ...

  37. Pull my Finger, that will be 10$ + gratuity by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

    Ok, so i had another joke too...

  38. The road to Hell by zerocircle · · Score: 1

    Oh jeez, I read that as "Fingerprint Pavement System."

  39. Trusted Metrics by QuaintRealist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is a more profound problem with using body parts for trusted metrics, which has been brought up on this site and others before. If your "ID" is stolen, you cannot change it. Until, and unless, we can secure digital information (doubtful from this perspective), biometrics will remain interesting but unuseful in wider implementation.

    --
    Using plain ol' text since 1968
    1. Re:Trusted Metrics by tboult0 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually the are number of revocable or cancable biometrics-based technologoies being developed. Securics.com has one and IBM has had many recent press releases on their work. These at least protect against database hacks/insiders so that when (not if) a database is compromised. Also recent work at MSU has show real progress on a fuzzy vault that hides digital keys in a fingerprint. Securics even has a version that mixes a pin/passcode with the cryptograpically transformed print, but neither is stored separately. This means it cannot be used to search for you.

  40. Oh good lord... by CupBeEmpty · · Score: 1

    So now it will be easier for me to make impulse buys which I certainly can do without (I don't have a nano yet and that is mostly due to the fact that the Apple store is a few miles uptown)

    AND

    Now getting mugged on the way home from work will involve permanent dismemberment... great. Maybe they could make something like those anti-mugging belt wallets for when you visit countries with high crime. It would basically keep your hands in your pants all the time to make them unavailable to theives. I am patenting that.

  41. Gives new meaning... by kahanamoku · · Score: 0, Redundant

    to thumbing a ride (hitch-hiking)

    also, if you weren't happy with the service, do you pay with your middle finger?

    --
    ----- Concentrate on promoting more than demoting.
  42. Insufficient Funds by mixmasterjake · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm sorry sir, your finger was declined. It says here that we're supposed to cut it up...

    --
    TODO: come up with a clever sig
    1. Re:Insufficient Funds by Celsius+233 · · Score: 1

      I thought you said you could just read it electronically!
      Oh yes, but we'd have to get it off first. It's got to be prepared. Treated. Diced.

      --
      Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dandy Dental Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice Dentrifice Dentrifice.
  43. is it just me... by krunk4ever · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    or did anyone else read the topic as:
    Fingerprint Payment System Gets Fingering

    i need new glasses.

  44. Re:As long as I can pay for gas with my middle fin by tagayakal · · Score: 1

    If somebody says you drive like a wuss, show them the finger and it'll show them that you can have driving lessons anytime you want! :)) And if a policeman pulls youi over for driving like a maniac, all you have to do is raise your middle finger and not only will it relieve you of your anger at the cop, you can pay the ticket right there! =))

  45. after work by Synth3t1c · · Score: 1

    after work, my hands can be dirty as hell.. i hope that wont effect it

  46. How about a cheap cellphone wallet? by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I lost my wallet. I'd like to be able to call it and hear it ring so I could find it, or talk to the person who found it. Of course this idea isn't for serious.

  47. Fingerprint Theft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happens when your fingerprints are stolen. How will you ever prove that it wasnt you that made said transactions? Its not like you can just change your prints. Then any further system that requires your prints will again be under the same potential attack.

    I can see institutions then refusing to deal with you because your a liablity or you get stuck with high fees and charges because your a high risk customer.

    I say no to biometrics!

  48. Not Very Hard To Make More Secure by Dawizman · · Score: 1

    This technology could be easily paired up with some sort of pass-code (Like the PIN number you use with a debit card), and it would be even more secure. Sure, it may be easy to dupe a fingerprint, but with the added pass-code, it would be much harder to fraudulantly use.

    Personally, I would never trust my financial assets on a finger-print alone. I think the only bio-metric device I would trust alone without some additional form of security is a retinal scanner.

    1. Re:Not Very Hard To Make More Secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A PIN (personal identification number) number eh?

    2. Re:Not Very Hard To Make More Secure by jupiter909 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, a PIN makes things more secure, it's the next logical step in security. I was thinking of something in the lines of tracking users as extra security. If a persons finger/PIN combination was used in a area, and then all of a sudden used in some other part of the country, it would mean that the finger-print had been lifted and scammed. AFAIK Credit Cards do some tracking like that and also monitor the amounts used, they build a database pattern for that user, sudden changes to the pattern are flagged.

      Another idea is that one could have all fingers scanned, and when doing a transaction, the system would ask for which finger it wanted scanned. All in all, I like this technology.

  49. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.... by deburg · · Score: 2, Informative
    Malaysia car thieves steal finger http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4396831.st m

    ...

    The car, a Mercedes S-class, was protected by a fingerprint recognition system.

    ...

    But having stripped the car, the thieves became frustrated when they wanted to restart it. They found they again could not bypass the immobiliser, which needs the owner's fingerprint to disarm it.

    They stripped Mr Kumaran naked and left him by the side of the road - but not before cutting off the end of his index finger with a machete.

  50. What about amputees? by sturat · · Score: 1

    As someone with no fingers I find this to be a very digitist concept.

    *puts socks and shoes back on, gets coat*

    1. Re:What about amputees? by Celsius+233 · · Score: 1

      You forgot to put "you insensitive clod".

      --
      Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dandy Dental Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice Dentrifice Dentrifice.
    2. Re:What about amputees? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me, there is a unique pattern to the end of your john thomas. So forget those wussy fingerprints, which you leave everywhere, whip your whanger out and pay with that!

      Queue early withdrawal jokes here...

  51. Cancable by QuaintRealist · · Score: 1

    Although I hate to show ignorance, I cannot understand the word "cancable", and cannot find a reference to it in google or elsewhere (except as a website name). I note that your posting history pertains exclusively to biometrics, and I hope you can explain - no sarcasm whatsoever - I am trying to learn

    Thank you in advance

    Pete

    --
    Using plain ol' text since 1968
    1. Re:Cancable by Pete · · Score: 1

      I suspect it was just a really bad misspelling of cancellable - ie. something that can be cancelled.

    2. Re:Cancable by tboult0 · · Score: 1

      My bad should have been Cancelable Biometrics (how IBM used it) or Cancellable Biometrics. E.g. see url:http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/ecvg/biom/ca ncel.html

  52. Not just a finger scan a pin code is also required by pg133 · · Score: 1

    If you view the flash demo on the paybytouch website, you will discover that the system only makes the need to carry the actual (plastic) credit card redundant. You will still need a checking account or credit card account to charge the purchase. In the demo you can see that you are give a choice on how you wish to pay, presumably from your payment choices given when you first registered for the system. You will also notice in the demo you are also required to enter a PIN number.

    More information can be found here

  53. One Small Problem by Hal+The+Computer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid most people are. How often do you think someone is going to press the wrong finger onto the scanner by accident. After the first time, the police department is going to stop sending in a SWAT team and just call the store and ask if they have another very confused customer.

    --

    int main(void){int x=01232;while(malloc(x));return x;}
    1. Re:One Small Problem by nmb3000 · · Score: 1

      Love your .sig

        main(){while(new int);}

      I just had to see if it would really compile. Then I just had to run it.

      Now it's eating up 100MB / second. Neat.

      It does seem to be capped at about 550MB though (1GB RAM, XP Pro SP2). Anyone know why this would be?

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    2. Re:One Small Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've exhausted the heap, try upgrading to a 64 bit system.

    3. Re:One Small Problem by calyptos · · Score: 1

      Fairly easy to way to cut down on that...

      Have 1 correct finger for accepting a payment
      Have 1 alert finger, placed automatically in a position which is hard to screw up.
      Have the other 8 be invalid, and give an error.

      Perhaps treat the first alert as invalid, so they have to screw up twice in a row to make an alert go off.

      --
      http://illhostit.com/ - Webhosting
  54. Photo id also required? by 56kowboy · · Score: 1

    What if when you use your fingerprint a photo of you also pops up and to complete the sale the cashier would have to verify that the photo matches you?

    1. Re:Photo id also required? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, great. This trend is totally stupid. Joe Consumer goes into convienence mart to get stuff. Little Johnny Worker is there to ring up the sale and wish Joe a happy day. Johnny is not and should not ever be a line of security for Joe and his money.

  55. Well it will stop by CsiDano · · Score: 1

    stupid people from giving out their information to phishers. Really who would be so dumb as to scan their finger and send a copy in reply to an email? You would have to be....ahem pretty um dumb. Nevermind.

    --
    piss off
    1. Re:Well it will stop by prostoalex · · Score: 1

      Dear CsiDano,

      This is [Amazon|Yahoo|Paypal|Bank of America|Chase|Citibank|Slashdot] fraud detection department. Recently part of our database was compromised, and unfortunately your profile was among the ones that got leaked. To avoid interruption of service and account freeze, would you please scan your index finger and mail it to bank_of_america_fraud_department@hotmail.com.

      Thank you,
      Jess Richardson
      Fraud Department
      Phone: 1-800-BANK-USA
      Fax: 1-234-567-8901

  56. Bad idea by glacote · · Score: 1

    Bears repeating: biometrics are good for identification (login) but poor at authentification (password). Just too easily circumvented.

    1. Re:Bad idea by Ed_Pinkley · · Score: 1

      MOD PARENT UP! Biometrics measurements are not secrets and should not be treated as such. Capturing biometric data as it is being read is always possible with a man-in-the-middle attack or a fake reader.

      I would also like to point out that not all biometrics are equal. First, fingerprints and DNA are used in forensics to help with criminal investigations. The reason for this is that you leave traces of them wherever you go. So, not only do they identify you but they identify where you have been.

      Second, fingerprints (and soon, I'm sure, DNA) are required for most (all?) arrests. So, they have a negative connotation in our society. Some banks require a fingerprint in order to cash a check if you don't have an account at that bank. This makes a lot of people angry.

      I think for these reasons, these companies would be better off using retina, entire hand or vein patterns to verify identity.

      --
      "Long time listener, first time caller."
  57. The next bad /. story series by simdan · · Score: 1

    Joining dupes and software update announcements is "new tech startup gets funding." Plans for "tech start up goes under" are in the works.

  58. tin foil everywhere by Anonymous+Luddite · · Score: 1

    You opted out of the fingerprint???

    I bet they took your prints off the next tax return. ;-)

    1. Re:tin foil everywhere by firl · · Score: 1

      All electronic, don't even have myself type it, H&R block or something like that makes it easy mode.

  59. easily fixed... by weighn · · Score: 1
    after work, my hands can be dirty as hell.. i hope that wont effect it

    you could always stop fingering yourself at work, heh

    --
    Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
  60. Kill Bill by pickledherring · · Score: 1

    Anyone remember which Mexican town's PD has Bill's fingerprints on file? My bags are packed...

  61. Social engineering would still work by andrewman327 · · Score: 1

    If I stole someone's personal information or credit card, I could simply walk into a store with my arm in a sling or bandages on my fingers. I could then proceed to talk the compassionate clerk into letting me avoid the finger scanner. I think this is a horrible idea that has many fatal errors.

    --
    Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
  62. Strange place to pay by kahanamoku · · Score: 1

    From now on, all prostitutes will be installed with fingerprint payment systems.
    you'll have to guess where!

    or...

    put a scanner up your ass... now at least yo can charge for that cavity search!

    --
    ----- Concentrate on promoting more than demoting.
  63. Several reason NOT to use fingerprint devices by Dark+Coder · · Score: 1

    I shake my head with sadness as the early technology adopters blindly increase the dangers to our general public without much forethought...

    General populaces are at increasing risk due to:

    1. Loss of biometric data (finger detachments, eyeballs ripped out)
    2. Duplication of biometric data (back-end hacking; once stolen, always stolen; you are non-revocable)
    3. Transference of ancillary foreign objects (Infectious disease; fecal matter; Leprosy; Acid; Alkalinity)

    It is a non-starter. Only takes one plague to avoid the scanner 'like the plague.'

    1. Re:Several reason NOT to use fingerprint devices by loqi · · Score: 1

      3. Transference of ancillary foreign objects (Infectious disease; fecal matter; Leprosy; Acid; Alkalinity)

      This is basically true of PIN pads as well.

      --
      If other reasons we do lack, we swear no one will die when we attack
  64. Stolen = forever by s.o.terica · · Score: 1

    Yup, and what's worse, if you have your credit card number stolen, you just cancel the card and get a new one. If you have your fingerprint stolen, the thief has a permanent personal identifier for you forever.

  65. And the Anti-Christ Danced His Evil Happy Dance by Orbital+Observer · · Score: 0, Redundant

    ...while he laughed and laughed and laughed...

    --
    ---- I have nothing more to add.
  66. Fingerprint as hash... by RexRhino · · Score: 1

    I know a lot of the comments about this will be that fingerprinting is not any more secure than using a CC number... that the digital data of the fingerprint can be intercepted along the way and used.

    But couldn't the fingerprint somehow be used as a hashing function. For example, lets say your bank scans in your thumb print in a 1000 x 1000 32 bit array and has it on record.

    Now, when you go to the store, instead of the machine scanning in your entire fingerprint and sending it to the bank, the bank sends to the machine "give me the value for 534 x 123" or some other randomly determined location on your thumb. The reader machine, reads that one location and sends the value, and if the value matches the transaction is improved.

    The benifit of this system is that even if the data is intercepted, it is only one possible code out of a million possibilities. The likelyhood of that grid point being requested again by the bank is very small.

    This is just one possible idea, but I imagine if someone talented spent a lot of time thinking about it they could come up with a lot of good ideas to make this secure.

    1. Re:Fingerprint as hash... by tboult0 · · Score: 1

      Well the fingerprint is not always in the same position, and actually deforms so even if aligned its not exactly the same each time. This is also why you cannot just encrypt the data (or do crypto hash like md5) and then match the encrypted or hashed data. All biometrics require approximate matching, so if encrypted they must be decrypted to match.
      There have been some improvements that transform biometrics to improve privacy and security, but the biometrics companies have repeatedly told me they do not see a market demand for them.

  67. I don't know who originally said it... by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

    The ideal method of identification will require something you have (card or fob), something you know (PIN or password), and something you are (fingerprint, retinal scan, photo ID.) For many purposes two of these may be sufficient, but a system that uses only one of these methods is by default insecure, and the least secure out of all of these is fingerprints.

    Severed fingers should be the *least* of anyone's worries--rest assured, working artificial fingers *will* be developed. Even better, the fingerprints could undoubtably be found at the very same location that they are used. Crooks can simply use the self-checkout lane and sprinkle corn starch everywhere. And God help us if they start using these as the only means of ID at ATMs--the equivalent of your PIN AND your account number will be printed right on the "Ok" button!

    If they don't combine this with a PIN, I predict this system to fail and fail spectacularly.

  68. record? feedback? by idlake · · Score: 1

    Signing slips of paper is a good system: each individual signature is hard to duplicate in its original form, the terms (total amount etc.) you agree to are clearly spelled out on the piece of paper, and both sides get a copy. All these electronic payment systems have the problem that the credit card company or store can, potentially, generate arbitrary numbers of transactions and you have no physical basis on which to challenge them ("please produce the credit slips"). With credit cards, you have some legal protections if you pay enough attention to your credit card statements, but since the same systems are also used for debit cards and other forms of payment, companies can empty your account and if they don't want to cancel bogus charges, there is nothing you can do.

    And this sort of thing is not theoretical: I have had duplicate charges to my credit cards several times, with the company claiming that they had a signature (electronic) for each charge. Of course, it was the same signature; it is possible that they just keep a record of all signatures you ever made to them and all transactions, and just pick and choose.

    Note also that it's software developers and engineers--geeks--that are responsible for creating these bogus payment systems. Please use your heads (a bit more) if you work on these kinds of systems.

  69. At my place of employment ... by vonmeth · · Score: 1

    They actually introduced this first at the grocery store I work at.

    When they first came, all employees where required to watch a video, so that we could help customers with it.

    The video reminded me a lot of 1984.

    "Repeat after me. Pay by Touch is fast - secure - free"

    I aruged with those folks for a bit. Tried to explain to them how it is insecure and that the use of two types of verfication is recommended.

    "Oh, there is a pin number as well. It is your phonenumber."

    My freaking phonenumber? Might as well put it as 12345.

    When I mentioned 1984, the guy started talking about the mark of the beast and doom sayers, and 666. I sorta just gave up after that.

    While reading the terms of service, I discovered they can sell your personal information to other companies that are associated with them.

    Anyways, the touch pad is intergrated into the self sliding credit card thing. I'm told by the cashiers that not many people use it. The only people I have seen use it are the Pay By Touch ones.

    You can have different accounts on different fingers, and you get to decide which one you want to use.

    The first Pay By Touch person found it particulary funny that he used his middle finger. He kept flicking us off, exclaiming, "Yes, and this is the one I use. Har Har Har."

    Anyways. Not that great. I don't use it, and I don't know any co-workers that use it.

    Sliding a card is much faster than -

    Pressing a button
    wait to load
    enter in PIN number (phone number)
    enter
    press finger on scanner
    wait for it to scan

    Did it find it?
    Did dirt mess up the scan?
    A scratch on the finger?

    For hell's sake, just use a damn plastic card or cash.

  70. Re:Photo id also required? MOD UP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parent makes an excellent point.

  71. A demonstration by jdfox · · Score: 2, Funny

    Here's a helpful diagram of the proper finger to use. As you can see, this method of authentication is so simple that anyone can use it.
    Note also that the the remaining fingers serve as ALERT fingers.

  72. Cancel your fingerprints by flakac · · Score: 1

    This is an extremely bad idea, since while you can cancel a credit card, you can't cancel your fingerprints . It's just a matter of time before someone figures out a way to use a fingerprint gathered by some undetermined means (discarded coke can, mail-in response form, etc...), scans it and spoofs the terminal into draining your account. And since it's allegedly been "signed" by your print, you can't refute it.

    Quite frankly, this system scares the heck out of me.

  73. what if... by tommeke100 · · Score: 0

    I have no hands? can I use my toe?

  74. Want every 7-11 clerk to have your fingerprint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So with this, to be safe you must wear gloves the rest of your life since fingerprints are easy to steal. Wonderful. Also, the idea of every 7-11 clerk or anyone on a store network having access to your fingerprints is less than enthralling.

  75. Eeww by tekboy25 · · Score: 1
    You're touching every finger that scanner has ever scanned.

    I like the touchless alternatives better, like RFID dongles, or how about retina scanning?

  76. Does anyone here actually like technology? by Gunzour · · Score: 1

    I find it amazing that this article about a new use of technology has not a single positive comment on it. Why is everyone on Slashdot so against the use of technology to make our lives easier? Reading through the comments I see all these far fetched ideas of how the technology is going to be abused.

    Yes, anytime something new is developed or implemented, someone is going to try to find a way to use it to commit fraud or do some bad thing. Believe it or not, everything has risks.

    If you folks had been around when they invented the car you would have hated it.

    "Oh great, now someone is going to use this thing to run me over while I am walking down the street." "Gee, with one of these things, a bank robber could get away really fast!"

    First of all, people are not going to cut your finger off to pay for stuff. How are they going to use your severed finger at a public place like the grocery store? Don't you think that would raise some eyebrows?

    Second of all, if you are so concerned about germs, bring a clorox wipe with you and wipe the thing off before you use it.

    And if you are saying "You can't change your fingerprints!" -- well gee, I guess you *could* just cancel your Pay By Touch account, couldn't you? No surgery required...

    If you still think the technology is too scary or too risky or whatever, don't use it.

    Personally, I would love to be able to pay by just scanning my fingerprint. It's a convenience, the likelihood of fraud seems to be about the same or less than a credit card, and the merchant saves money in lower transaction fees.

  77. n-factor security by sittingbull · · Score: 1

    I thought the point of developing biometrics was additive and used as another form/layer of verification, not to stop using all other forms of ID and just use the fingerprint. This idea is doomed to fail: what about handicapped persons?; false reads; the fingerprint signature files from being stolen....? I would rather use a credit card w/ "ask for Id" written in the signature field for all of my transactions.

    Finally, who's to say that eventually that this data won't get sold to the federal government by private companies as test data for the TSA/homeland security. Where does the data go when this company goes bankrupt?

    Now you get booked before you shop; not if you are a shoplifter.

  78. how many have the same key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the genetic's course I took this past Spring-- my professor told us that there has never has been a study done proving that fingerprints from person to person is unique. And, in fact, there has been cases where law enforcement has fingerprint overlap of two people.

  79. Hey, buddy... by veredox · · Score: 1

    Thumb a hundred bucks, will ya, and save the clock tower!

  80. You have no clue how these systems work, do you? by Biometric+Expert · · Score: 1

    I can't get over all the FUD and BS that the anti-biometric crowd comes out with, so predictably, when confronted by the reality that existing authentication methods don't work, or are too inconvenient to be practical. This stuff works, and is much more convenient, lower cost, and secure than the alternatives - get over it.

    To the poster who said they use it at work and it doesn't match:
    You are using crappy technology. The state of the art not only doesn't need a PIN, it can match using any of over 20 different readers, against a population of millions. There are two components to a quality system - the scanner, and the software to perform extraction and matching. If either is inferior, the entire system appears to stink. For example, mating a great engine to a crappy transmission results in poor performance. There are many scanners which ship with crappy software for free, and many ISVs use that crappy software, and give the industry a bad name. Add a quality software matcher to a quality reader and you have an entirely different experience.

    To the poster who thinks that the bad guys will cut your finger off:
    Modern readers don't allow dead fingers to work, so stop worrying. Plus, we are talking about retail POS usage, where a cashier *might* notice a bum holding a dead finger on the sensor...

    To the poster who thinks that if he uses a finger to ID, that if he loses his finger, it's "game over":
    Do you really think that they would be so stupid as to make the *only* way to ID you be your finger, without any alternative, albeit less convenient way? Every system has to handle the unenrollable, just like if you lost your smart card.

    To the poster who thinks that if the hash for the fingerprint (not how it works, by the way) is cracked, he can't get another finger (this one always cracks me up):
    The fingerprint is not the key - the finger is. The best systems don't *rely* on the fingerprint being kept a secret, despite the misconception that if compromised, you're toast. They create a binding from the sensor to the matching server that assures that no fingerprint can be inserted into that pipe. Again, your finger is the key, not your fingerprint. Fingerprints are public data for any quality finger matching system.

    Before you start talking about latex overlays and gummi fingers (I read your mind, right?), know that the new readers also prevent gummi fingers from working, and the advanced software systems in the matchers require a much higher quality image than the weak algorithms that were fooled by earlier gummi attempts.

  81. Re:You have no clue how these systems work, do you by Combination+Expert · · Score: 1

    I have some reservations about biometric systems since I know how most of them work. "Population of millions" is still remote future for biometrics. You need accuracy, you need speed (indexing), you need some standard protocols.
    The key to solving many problems is combination. There are scanners which can determine liveness of a skin and there are fingerprint scanners. There should be: combined fingerprint and liveness scanner. ETA: 2-3 years. Almost perfect scanner: all-in-one fingerprint, liveness, chemical, blood vessel, hand geometry, palmprint, (DNA?). ETA: 10-20 years.

    The main critique of the proposed system: the protocol is not standard. The fingerprint should really be combined with some token, like credit card. The required phone number (or any other number) is really the key for this system but company's sales department is at work here, and it is conveniently forgotten when vaunting the product.

    New crime type (completely innocent): I pay for groceries and 'accidentaly' enter wrong phone number. Scan finger, if does not work enter correct phone number and proceed. After 100-1000 shopping trips and changing 'accidental' phone numbers: lo and behold - some phone number (not mine) worked with my fingerprint! Forget my own phone number and go to a shopping spree!

  82. From someone who has actually used this by MetallicaMan · · Score: 1

    Pay by touch, is an option at all Charleston, South Carolina Piggly Wiggly grocery stores. Sadly, being a cashier there, I can comment a bit on it's use.
              Basically, it connects your fingerprint (or an algorithm derived from your print, as I'm told) with either your checking account or credit card along with your PFC card (Pig's Favorite Customer- or insert discount card here depending on the store). The self swipe terminal has a scanner for your finger, which you use to pay. Along with your fingerprint, the system does use a pin, but it is just your local phone number without the area code. I suppose you could make up your own seven digit number to make it that much more secure.
              Surprisingly, the people who sign up for this option the most have tended to be senior citizens who live in nursing homes nearby. They seem to like the option of not having to bring their wallets or purses with them. The younger crowd is much more suspicious of the system in general.
              It is also, far from perfect. For one reason or another, although the older crowd appreciates it more, it tends to have more trouble with wrinkly hands. Even people that have signed up, sometimes are not identified by the scanner and end up paying the old fashioned way. It isn't any quicker than credit or debit card, and if the account is linked to a credit card then you still must sign the slip.
              Overall, it's an interesting system, but it still has a number of kinks to work out. I'm sure there's room for abuse, but I don't think that severed fingers or fake fingerprints are a concern at the present time. I'm rather well educated in the fake identity field, and the biggest problem with this system is people breaking the readers because they think they have to mash their finger down on the damn readers and they crack the plastic. Every system has its flaws, but since it's much easier to deal with stealing credit cards than fingerprints, I would guess that the criminals will stick with what they know, at least for the time being.

  83. Re:You have no clue how these systems work, do you by Biometric+Expert · · Score: 1

    The key phrase in your post was "I know how most of these systems work." There are state-of-the-art fingerprint matchers which are in production now, which obviously lie outside your familiarity.

    Adding a second or third factor (Combinations):
    Good point - you are correct that adding additional verification checks such as skin chemistry, blood vessel, etc raise the bar even further, but your expectation of timing is a little off. There are readers less than 1 year from large scale production which bring at least two of those additional verification components to the market, at prices even lower than the cheapest fingerprint-only scanners now. Still, the model for the use of these technologies remains to first ID the person based on their fingerprint, then confirm that ID with the second and third factors. The reason is that fingerprint searching is much more accurate and scalable that any of these additional factors. Companies that want to start with fingerprint technology can do so now, if they use a state-of-the-art technology which will allow complete portability to any of these new readers, without re-enrolling.

    Misconceptions of accuracy of state of the art fingerprint matchers:
    Your characterization, which I expect is based on the capabilities of the major AFIS fingerprint vendor technology being used by PayByTouch (which is only accurate to 1 in 10,000 for a single finger), is not reflective of the state of the art in production-deployed fingerprint identification systems, which offer single finger accuracy of over 1 in 200 million, by extracting 50 times more data from the same fingerprint image than these older systems. These state of the art systems also index data using COTS databases such as Oracle, and run on data center friendly platforms such as Windows and Linux. These indexing systems allow a single finger to be presented to databases of - yes - millions of prints, returning a single 1 in 200 million accuracy match. So, if the search is a 1 to many ("with no other information provided, is this person in my db?"), it can be found among millions.

    Why PayByTouch uses a separate "key" such as tel. number
    The reason for having consumers enter their phone number or other unique identifier, is to allow the back end matcher to retrieve a single record from a traditional DB such as Oracle, containing the biometric template of record for that individual, then performing a "1 to 1" match between the print at the POS with the print from the DB. These types of matches can be performed at huge throughput volumes, which allows the system to scale. Performing "1 to Many" searches are CPU intensive, and so cannot be used in a centralized processing model. Here again, state of the-art-systems have built "cascading search" capabilities, which automate the process of first searching from a local context ("has this person been in this store before?"),then only moving up to larger scale 1 to many searches when a person is not found locally. Leveraging context results in a distributed processing model which scales very well. Cisco is working with the state-of-the-art vendor I'm describing to build the biometric equivalent of DNS, built directly into their new AON switches, to allow the cascading search to be completely transparent, like the DNS process.

    New Crime Type - would not work:
    The trial and error attack you described would never succeed if a highly accurate matcher is used - and is the reason that consumers should ask what the accuracy (False Accept Rate) of the system being used to match their finger to their record. If the answer is 0.0001 (1::10,000), then it would still take you over 10000 random attempts to have a chance of matching someone else. However, if it's a state-of-the-art system, offering more like 0.000000005 (1::200,000,000), then you simply could never match anyone else's prints. Additionally, these systems perform internal alias/duplicate checks to determine if any two prints are the same (in which case, the person is the same)

    So, PayByTouch does have a weak algorithm in place now, but they are likely to move to something more accurate, as they learn the shortcomings of the technology they chose.

  84. Mark of the beast by Thecarpe · · Score: 1

    Though I'm not interested in arguing or debating the point (I'm not an apocalyptic fear monger or anything), I did find it interesting that Revelation refers to the mark of the beast as a mark on a person's hand or head that will be required for transactional purposes in the world economy. Whether this is the case or not with fingerprint transactions has yet to be seen. For those with no connection to Christianity at all, it doesn't much matter. For those who do practice the Christian faith, it's things like this that I get less and less comfortable blowing off as just another "advance" in technology. To be sure, if my relationship with God is in tact, it doesn't much matter what happens to me on this earth so long as I'm following Him. I'm a technology geek through and through. Sometimes it's difficult to reconcile what I believe in my core with the life that is being handed to me in regards to politics, technology, culture, etc... Can't serve two masters, so it becomes difficult at times, I guess, to operate in a world where you are really just a stranger. You want to be a regular person and not so heavenly focused that you of no earthly good, while at the same time trying not to be luke-warm about your faith. Bottom line: what happens if I refuse to be I.D.'d by my fingerprint for religious reasons? What do they do with amputees and quad/parapalegics?

  85. Re:You have no clue how these systems work, do you by Combination+Expert · · Score: 1
    I admit I do not have access to IBG test reports. If you have access, good for you. The numbers which you cite probably come from Bio-key but I tend to be cautious about them. Anyway, it is a question whether you believe some company's propaganda or not. Presenting better numbers directly translates into bigger sales and company's livelihood. Tweaking numbers is unfortunately a frequent way of doing business (I am not asserting this happened here; I simply do not have enough information to judge).

    Testing setup usually greatly influences performance results. "Cleaning", that is removing few (5-10) fingerprints from FVC2002 database would make most fingerprint systems perform perfectly. There is no information how bio-key's algorithm was tested. It would be really interesting to see where this 1:200,000,000 figure comes from.

    New crime type still works: scan your unenrolled middle finger with random phone number.

    You really have to look beyond PR bullshit and see if technology worth something. It is rather hard to do with bio-key, only information being rather unreadable patent.