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The Equation That Couldn't Be Solved

Joe Kauzlarich writes "There's an ever-growing number of fun niche books seeping onto the mathematics bookshelves, that, while not essential, are almost always guaranteed to leave the reader with a fuller taste of the subject at hand and an appetite to learn more. Mario Livio's The Equation That Couldn't Be Solved is a modest semi-classic of pop-math literature, focusing on the central concepts of group theory, the subject that turned mathematics on its head a century and a half ago and has ever since been one of the delights of studying higher mathematics." Read on for the rest of Joe's review. The Equation That Couldn't Be Solved: How Mathematical Genius Discovered the Language of Symmetry author Mario Livio pages 335 publisher Simon & Schuster rating 8/10 reviewer Joe Kauzlarich ISBN 0-7432-5820-7 summary Popular math/science

If you've studied group theory, you've probably heard it called 'the language of symmetry' or referred to by some such vague, colorful non-description, while your professor and textbook direct you to just memorize the handful of basic axioms, definitions, and theorems that reveal little to the unknowing eye in the way of having much to do with symmetry. Livio concentrates on the more colorful aspects of symmetry, spending little time with black and white textbook theory. For this reason, the book makes ideal extra-curricular entertainment for those enrolled in a first-semester course on abstract algebra.

It seems that Mario Livio's technique in writing books is to choose an ostensibly simple topic and explore it from a broad array of angles. In his second and most popular work, The Golden Ratio, he chose to write about the number Phi. The book reads like the front page of Slashdot, skipping quickly from topic to topic, though sticking to the general theme, insuring that the reader must never get bored. The treatment he once gave to Phi, he now gives to symmetry. Livio explores the concept of symmetry as it manifests itself in biology, art, physics and (especially, of course) mathematics. Then he broaches the most important topic of the book, group theory, and ventures upon the two stunning tales of its conception, as the book's two central figures independently discover that a certain equation cannot be solved by means of regular algebra (which, at the time, referred to the sort of formulaic manipulation done by today's undergrad algebra and calculus students; now, the word 'algebra,' in professional circles, includes group theory and much more).

At last, less-experienced readers will find a warm entry-way into one of the most fascinating and advanced branches of mathematics, one which has, through time, permeated most other branches. Experienced readers will revisit a familiar topic in its historical and mathematical-cultural context, as well as gain an 'intuitive' picture of group theoretical symmetry, an aspect often omitted from first semester advanced algebra courses. All readers can be comforted that mathematical notation is hardly anywhere to be found in the book. Experts need not fear wasting money to relearn what they already know and beginners can pick up the math through its brief mostly-English-language descriptions and should feel more comfortable diving into a course on the subject.

What is this Equation That Couldn't Be Solved? The equation in question is the quintic equation-- a polynomial of degree five (i.e. ax^5+bx^4+...+ex+f=0). You've probably studied the quadratic equation-- ax^2+bx+c=0-- as well as the quadratic formula, used to solve this equation-- x= (b(+/-)sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a. The quintic equation cannot be solved by means of a formula and it took hundreds of years and two very young men to discover this. And as happens in so many famous instances throughout the history of science, the answer to a seemingly innocent little problem becomes the key to a revolution in thought.

A 22-year-old Norwegian named Niels Henrick Abel (1802-1829) and a 20-year-old Frenchman named Evariste Galois (1811-1832), discovered the impossibility of solving the quintic almost simultaneously in the 1820's. Both died within years of their discovery and both went unnoticed and uncelebrated until after their death. The tragedies that preceded their deaths-- Abel died essentially out of poverty; Galois, poor and already half-mad, in a pistol duel-- have served as a valuable lesson to the mathematical community ever since: spot genius early and foster it. Who knows what would have become of these men had they lived through the prime of their talents, just as the great Gauss and his contemporaries were developing the foundations for what would become Modern mathematics? It was Abel and, particularly, Galois, who defined the language of symmetry. Both saw The Equation in a light that had never been seen before.

Mario Livio is a historian as much as he is a scientist and the detail and color he gives to the lives of these tragic figures is unforgettable. Not only was his research thorough, but he even visited the regions he describes, and his results on the mysteries surrounding the death of Galois offer conclusiveness and definitiveness that seem hardly to have been matched in this particular line of research. Additionally, Livio digs up fresh mathematical anecdotes throughout the book, being careful not to repeat those stories or 'factoids' that are repeated ad nauseum across the genre.

Group theory has become an essential requisite of such diverse areas of scientific research as was unimaginable at the time of its inception. The fundamental particles of nature are arranged in groups, making the subject a cornerstone of particle physics and all physical 'theories of everything.' Group theory is the simplest sort of 'mathematical abstraction' (actually, it is a step past set theory) in that numbers and equations play no part in its basic definitions. Once you learn it well, then rings and fields follow. Then comes the fascinating study of topology, and then there is little that can stop you from learning anything you want mathematically (okay, that's a stretch). Cryptography is a modern applied field which requires a good working knowledge of group theory. I'm sure there are many other examples of applied group theory if you can't be convinced of the beauty of the subject in and for itself. Physics enthusiasts will enjoy the later chapter on group theory in modern particle physics, which is meant to show how integral the subject is to understanding and communicating the very laws of our universe.

While this is surely a bias on my part, I wasn't impressed with the amount of actual math described in the book. The very basics of group theory, as I mentioned, are elaborated upon-- the definition of a group, permutation groups, symmetry groups-- but Livio makes few attempts to make clear what group theorists study (mathematically-speaking) beyond these simple sorts of ideas. To his credit, he does explain Galois's proof quite clearly, considering the amount of time a student spends getting to it in textbooks. The book, as I've said, is foremost a look at symmetry, secondarily historical, and lastly, a math text. It is light reading, but-- take my word for it-- extremely entertaining and worth the few bucks. If you aren't much of a math geek, this book provides a great chance for you to get a glimpse at abstract algebra, which, IMHO, is one of the most fascinating branches of mathematics and, oddly, seems normally to be kept well-hidden from the eyes of non-math or non-physics majors."

You can purchase The Equation That Couldn't Be Solved from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

299 comments

  1. As Barbie says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Math is hard!

    1. Re:As Barbie says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      (Actually, I believe that was Malibu Stacy, a parody of Barbie, but...)

      Yes, that's why, when in doubt, just go with 8/10. 8/10 is easy, and can be used in all circumstances. For example, if someone asks you how good a game was, say 8/10. If someone asks you to rate a book, go with 8/10.

      It's easy, and involves no critical thinking!

    2. Re:As Barbie says by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 3, Funny

      The actual quote was "English is easy. Math are hard."

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    3. Re:As Barbie says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the Barbie quote was:

      "Math is hard. Let's go shopping."

    4. Re:As Barbie says by AviLazar · · Score: 0

      The actual quote was "English is easy. Math are hard."

      Or to add my spin to it:
      "Avi is easy. His cock are hard."

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    5. Re:As Barbie says by Lonath · · Score: 1

      The real quote is "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, we won't get fooled again."

      (I've often wondered if this means that you can't fool us twice, or that you can fool us twice but there's no shame on anyone, and we'll be careful not to get fooled a third time. This must keep philosophers up at night.)

    6. Re:As Barbie says by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      So now will the Anti-ID'ers will now disown Abel and Galois for using arguments from incredulity?

    7. Re:As Barbie says by epine · · Score: 1


      we won't be fooled again

      It means your head and hands end up burried in a bowling ball bag in backwoods New Jersey.

  2. Solve x = x+1 over the reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or complex numbers :)

    1. Re:Solve x = x+1 over the reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      you know you could just use x++

    2. Re:Solve x = x+1 over the reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GP: Solve x = x + 1 over the reals

      Parent: You could just use x++

      The disconnect between mathematicians and computer scientists has never been more apparent!

    3. Re:Solve x = x+1 over the reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well he should have said you can just use x += 1;

    4. Re:Solve x = x+1 over the reals by lgw · · Score: 1

      x = x++;

      Hmmm, that didn't seem to work.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:Solve x = x+1 over the reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooooh! Ooooh! Is the answer x = omega??

    6. Re:Solve x = x+1 over the reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple.

      X=X+1
      X-1=X

      X is clearly an impossible number, or i, which equals sqrt(-1).

      Therefore x = sqrt(-1)
      sqrt(-1)=sqrt(-1)+1
      Undefined = Undefined!

    7. Re:Solve x = x+1 over the reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you know absolute crap about math, don't you?

  3. The real geek equation...solved! by dada21 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Shower^2 + Shave + BrushTeethx32 + Get(Own(Apartment)) + not(sqr(Clothing)) = Women

    1. Re:The real geek equation...solved! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Wait, all I have to do is get my own apartment and not wear square clothing?

      Since right now:
      Shower=0
      Shave=0
      BrushTeeth=0

      which resolves to:
      0^2 + 0 + 0x32 = 0

    2. Re:The real geek equation...solved! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah, but as every young mathematician knows, women are evil -

      Women takes time and money.

      Women = time x money

      Time IS money

      Women = money x money = money ^ 2

      Money is the root of all evil

      money = sqrt(evil)
      => money^2 = evil

      since women = money^2

      women = evil

    3. Re:The real geek equation...solved! by b1t+r0t · · Score: 1
      Ah, but as every young mathematician knows, women are evil

      Work isn't much better:

      Work = FA

      F = MA

      Work = MAD

      --

      --
      "Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
      "Open source is evil." - Microsoft
    4. Re:The real geek equation...solved! by capnchicken · · Score: 1

      Who said women = 0?

      --
      A libertarian shat on my carpet once. Claimed the free market would sort it out. -Ford Prefect(8777)
    5. Re:The real geek equation...solved! by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Found your problem:

      shower^0.5 + shave + brushteeth*32 + get(own(apartment)) + not(clothes^2) ==> P(woman|low standards) > 0

      and its corollary

      hot(face AND body) OR $*1.0e+06 ==> P(hotness(woman) > 8) > 0

    6. Re:The real geek equation...solved! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      apparently, you just did. :P

  4. favorite math quote by flynt · · Score: 5, Funny

    To paraphrase my favorite math quote (which I believe a physicist said): There are only two kinds of math books, those you can't read past the first page, and those you can't read past the first sentence.

    1. Re:favorite math quote by vossman77 · · Score: 4, Informative
      see reply to previous quote
      "There are only two kinds of math books: those you can't read past the first page, and those you can't read past the first sentence."

      CN Yang, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1957
    2. Re:favorite math quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry for the repeat! i forgot i posted that a while back here too.

    3. Re:favorite math quote by DGtlRift · · Score: 2, Funny

      My favorite math quote..

      "There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those that don't."

      --
      How about a spell checker for slashdot, or even more impressive, a spell checker for strings in C-Code? Use lint! -DG
    4. Re:favorite math quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While that joke is perfectly legit, it has always bothered me as a hyper-pedantic engineer who works in digital electronic, '10' represents the 3rd counted state. 0,1,2.

    5. Re:favorite math quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      apparently you've never hear the original version of the joke:

      There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

    6. Re:favorite math quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the latter being Concrete Mathematics by Knuth.

      My brain hurts just thinking of it.

    7. Re:favorite math quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both at +5. Excellent karma whoring. I take off my hat.

    8. Re:favorite math quote by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      ?

      That book was easy. It's a freshmen book.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    9. Re:favorite math quote by tawhaki · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, it's actually:

      "There are only 10 types of people: those who understand octal, those who don't, and six other types of morons." :)

    10. Re:favorite math quote by ericcantona · · Score: 0

      my fav math quote : "statistics is not a branch of mathematics". (from Press et al. Numerical recipes in fortran)...

      --
      When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown in to the sea
  5. Galois by Otter · · Score: 5, Informative
    The tragedies that preceded their deaths-- Abel died essentially out of poverty; Galois, poor and already half-mad, in a pistol duel-- have served as a valuable lesson to the mathematical community ever since: spot genius early and foster it.

    Galois, IIRC, was the one who stayed up all night before the duel, frantically writing down every half-formed mathematical insight for posterity. Which probably didn't help his shooting. He was only 20, I think.

    1. Re:Galois by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It was common that those who would participate in a pistol duel to stay up all night--writing a will, writing down their knowledge for posterity, praying, etc. Without having researched the issue, I can say that his opponent was likely up all night, as well.

    2. Re:Galois by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yet it was quite uncommon that the result of their writing down helped shape Mathematics for a couple of centuries...

    3. Re:Galois by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      Unless, of course, his opponent was an uncommon man.

      Which begs the question: "Mathematics for the common man???"

    4. Re:Galois by 70Bang · · Score: 1



      That's a bit of UL.

      He did do a lot before he died, but not immediately before.

      What's funny is the stuff he did is only coming into vogue in many circles - left untouched. And the poor bastard had a hard time dealing with the entrance exams to the ecole.

      I took a lot of pure math, group thery, Galois theory, etc. in college for recreation - to make the math majors sweat. But whenever the chairman of the department started talking about what a slacker Galois was, everyone kept turning around and looking at me. :(

      'tis okay. He's still my hero (except I don't duel)

    5. Re:Galois by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Silly them. I imagine the man who could sleep the night would have a significant advantage. Of course, if he could sleep he probably felt pretty confident in his duelling ability anyway...

    6. Re:Galois by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Galois, IIRC, was the one who stayed up all night before the duel, frantically writing down every half-formed mathematical insight for posterity. Which probably didn't help his shooting. He was only 20, I think.

      Yeah, that's what they want you to think. As the summary says:

      Both died within years of their discovery and both went unnoticed and uncelebrated until after their death.

      I think it's clear that there is something suspicious going on here. In fact I believe there is an alien cons!@(*&%@($ !#($* ! #

      NO CARRIER

    7. Re:Galois by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1
      What's funny is the stuff he did is only coming into vogue in many circles - left untouched.

      While it certainly took some years to be acknowledged, Galois' work is very well-understood by now, and has been for a long time, and is incorporated deeptly into math. Galois's work has been "in vogue", as you say, for what seems like an age now.

    8. Re:Galois by khallow · · Score: 1
      I took a lot of pure math, group thery, Galois theory, etc. in college for recreation - to make the math majors sweat. But whenever the chairman of the department started talking about what a slacker Galois was, everyone kept turning around and looking at me. :(

      The correct behavior is to smirk and strike a pose. Haven't you heard of proper etiquette in these situations?

    9. Re:Galois by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 3, Funny

      He was also a political activist, which lends a wonderful double meaning to "the quintic equation cannot be solved by radicals".

      As Tom Lehrer said, "It's people like that who make you realize how little you've accomplished".

    10. Re:Galois by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The moral of that particular story is that it does pay off to practice one's markmanship! ;)

    11. Re:Galois by ozbird · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Guns don't kill people; maths kills people."

    12. Re:Galois by SparafucileMan · · Score: 1

      That's a myth. He was working on that book for months beforehand and didn't actually stay up all night writing down his math.

    13. Re:Galois by saforrest · · Score: 1

      What's funny is the stuff he did is only coming into vogue in many circles - left untouched.

      Erm, care to provide an example of something that was 'left untouched' until recently?

  6. Buwahahaha! by Dlugar · · Score: 0, Redundant
    The book reads like the front page of Slashdot, skipping quickly from topic to topic, though sticking to the general theme, insuring that the reader must never get bored.


    Hahahahaha! Nice one! :)
    --
    Computer Go: Writing Software to Play the Ancient Game of Go
    1. Re:Buwahahaha! by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 1

      skipping quickly from topic to topic

      It was really quite hypnotic

      //ba-dum-dum, ching!

    2. Re:Buwahahaha! by JustOK · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yah, wonder how many dupe topics/chapters there are.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:Buwahahaha! by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      yay for the obligatory spelling error

      s/insure/ensure/

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    4. Re:Buwahahaha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that a reference to the dark materia picard song? Or does this line of other true-er origins?

    5. Re:Buwahahaha! by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 1

      It's from the TNG 6th season episode 25 - Timescape, where Picard discusses a particularly dull speaker at a scientific conference.

      He just kept talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no one had a chance to interrupt; it was really quite hypnotic

    6. Re:Buwahahaha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I always assumed they just strung together words from various episodes when they made that sentence.

      thanks.

  7. Slashdot review rating equation solved by Slashdoc+Beta · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    RATING = 8/10

    1. Re:Slashdot review rating equation solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      8/10

      Am I the first to notice that, looked sideways, that number looks like a smiley of CowboyNeal rating a book while sitting on an amoeba-like chair?

    2. Re:Slashdot review rating equation solved by SMS_Design · · Score: 3, Funny

      Good answer, but you lose points. You forgot to simplify the fraction. 4/5.

    3. Re:Slashdot review rating equation solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      would that mean a rating of 1 is the best you can get?

  8. (-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by digitaldc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "...write down the roots of the quintic in terms of square roots, cube roots, and the Bring radical, which is therefore an algebraic solution in terms of algebraic functions of a single variable..."
    see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintic_equation

    It's really that simple.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 4, Informative

      How is this Bring Radical an algebraic function? It's defined as an analytic extension of an infinite series.

    2. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by digitaldc · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you (or I) are talking about. It was my pathetic attempt at writing out an algebraic solution.

      I quit trying to understand complex math when I got to functions of double integrals in Calculus.

      --
      He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    3. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by ScottyH · · Score: 1

      You think that's hard? Feel lucky you aren't me. Computational complexity would scare the living daylight out of you.

    4. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by zootm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Computational complexity scares the living daylights out of everyone.

    5. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by DrFrob · · Score: 1

      Oh my god, you're like totally so smart.

    6. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by NarrMaster · · Score: 1

      I ain't afraid of no reduction.

      --
      That's right. All your base.
    7. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by rkmath · · Score: 1

      Just the fact that it is described as an analytic extension of an
      infinite series does not imply it is not algebraic. For instance,
      the series 1+x+x^2+x^3+... converges only when |x|1. It can be analytically continued
      to all complex values of x except x=1. The expression for the
      extension is 1/(1-x) which is of course algebraic.

      The BringRadical might not be algebraic - but the reason is
      not that it is defined via an infinite series.

    8. Re:(-(p/4))^1/4BR((((-5/p)^5/4)q)/4) by zootm · · Score: 1

      Diagonalisin' makes me feel good!

  9. Curious and interesting numbers by Skiron · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you like books about maths (as we say here in the UK - mathematics is PLURAL), check out 'The Penguin Dictionary of Curious and Interesting Numbers' by David Wells - ISBN 0-14-008029-5.

    1. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant mathematics ARE plural.

    2. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      >If you like books about maths (as we say here in the UK - mathematics is PLURAL),

      Don't you mean mathematics are plural?

    3. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by thebdj · · Score: 1

      To you and your sibling:

      mathematics n. (used with a sing. verb) The study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols.

      Brought to you courtesy of dictionary.com

      If you are going to harass the british about something get on them about excessive use of the letter 'u'.

      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    4. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, dumbasses, he means the word itself. if u doofuses had it ur way, we'd all tell the n00b user "click the start menu, then highlight the programs icons..." the programs iconS???? come on now... just b/c u program doesnt mean its illegal to learn english...

    5. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      Most probably, he means that the word "mathematics" is written in plural form.

    6. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by T-Ranger · · Score: 1

      It isnt the British who use "u" a lot, its just non-Americans, my silly neighbour to the south.

    7. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by TheoMurpse · · Score: 4, Informative

      mathematics is PLURAL

      No, "mathematics" is a singular noun that just happens to end in 's' in the same vein as "his", "pus" and "psoriasis."

      "Math" is the American abbreviation for the singular noun. "Maths" is the UK abbreviation for the singular noun.

    8. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by whoever57 · · Score: 1
      No, "mathematics" is a singular noun that just happens to end in 's'
      Not according to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. It's description is: "Function: noun plural but usually singular in construction".
      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    9. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, but that just isn't accurate. Mathematics is a plural noun, it just happens that it is usually employed as a generic term, and therefore without number specification.

    10. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by hak+hak · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure about whether it's singular or plural in English, but there's an interesting (IMHO) story attached to the French word. When a group of French mathematicians under the group pseudonym Nicolas Bourbaki started writing a series of books in which a very large part of mathematics was set up in a very general and formal style, they called it `Éléments de mathématique' (`Elements of mathematic'). Although the French word for mathematics is `mathématiques' (plural), they used the singular version because they thought mathematics should be viewed as a unified subject rather than as a loose collection of sub-subjects.

    11. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > as we say here in the UK - mathematics is PLURAL

      Mathematics is no more plural than physics, forensics, or economics.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    12. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      here in the usa, we only have the internets.

    13. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by jonadab · · Score: 1

      Then Merriam-Webster is wrong in this instance. The word 'mathematics' is definitely singular, as are most nouns ending in 'ics'. Other singular words ending in the letter 's' include 'avionics', 'sarcophagus', 'physics', and 'logos' (in the sense meaning "message" or "word"; the last form also occurs, more often, as the plural of 'logo').

      There are several ways you can tell these words are singular. Most obviously, you can tell grammatically, because they are always used with singular verbs. Secondarily, the corresponding forms without the 's' are unattested (as nouns; "mathematic" may occur as an adjective, but that's different). Additionally, if you have a background in linguistics (which is also singular), you can tell that these words are singular based on the component roots and affixes from which they are constructed. For instance, the "cs" on the end of most nouns that end in "ics" is a suffix indicating that the word refers to a discipline, practice, or field of study; therefore, the s is not a plural suffix. (Similarly, the s in "sarcophagus" and "logos" is part of the singular suffices "us" and "os", from Latin and Greek, respectively; the plural forms would be "sarcophagi" and "logoi". Although those plural forms AFAIK are not in widespread use in English, there are other words that do bring their plural forms over into English, e.g., "alumni" and "hoi polloi".)

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    14. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > mathematics is PLURAL

      If that was true, then you would have written: "mathematics are PLURAL".

    15. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HaHHHH. Maths ARE plural!

    16. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canadian terrourist

    17. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      So, what would a single "mathematic" be?

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    18. Re:Curious and interesting numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the thing that you cut with one scissor to fit it the pocket of your pant.

  10. Cool! by dorkygeek · · Score: 4, Funny
    In his second and most popular work, The Golden Ratio, he chose to write about the number Phi. The book reads like the front page of Slashdot, skipping quickly from topic to topic, though sticking to the general theme, insuring that the reader must never get bored.

    Cool, the first book with dupes already integrated!!

    --
    Windows is like decaf - it tastes like the real thing, but it won't get you through the day.
    1. Re:Cool! by Surt · · Score: 1

      In fairness to slashdot, I've only seen duplicate articles on the frontpage at the same time maybe 5 times at most. Usually the dupes are at least a day apart.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  11. Ouch by gowen · · Score: 1, Troll
    The book reads like the front page of Slashdot...
    What?!? Is that a recommendation? Why would I want dreadful grammar, poor spelling, endless repitition and insanely wrong-headed ideas masquerading as fact?
    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    1. Re:Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Why would I want dreadful grammar, poor spelling, endless repitition...
      talking about bad spelling...
  12. How is that called? by n0other · · Score: 2, Funny

    Um, how about this? : (a + b)^5 = a^5 + 5(a^4)b + 10(a^3)(b^2) + 10(a^2)(b^3) + 5a(b^4) + b^5.

    1. Re: How is that called? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they don't need to factor the equation, they need an equation to find the roots or zeros of the function.

    2. Re:How is that called? by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, no. Sure, *some* fifth-order polynomials are factorable to a set of reduced-order polynominals, but not all. What's being said here is that you can't take an arbitrary fifth-order polynomial, in the form ax^5 + bx^4 + cx^3 + dx^2 + ex + f, and have a formula to provide a solution. So there can be no 'quintic formula' along the same lines as the 'quadratic' formula, making polynomials of fifth-order or higher much harder to solve.

      --

      --
      I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy .sig.
    3. Re:How is that called? by Lifewish · · Score: 1

      What they're talking about is solutions for the equation x^5 + a.x^4 + b.x^3 + c.x^2 + d^x + e = 0. For the linear version (x + a = 0) there's a bloody obvious solution. For the quadratic version (x^2 + a.x + b = 0) there's a standard formula - the "quadratic formula" that you almost certainly learned in High School. There are also similar formulas using addition, multiplication, subtraction, division and taking square roots (the so-called "radical" operations) for cubic and quartic equations. There is no equivalent formula for the quintic equation.

      The reason for this is somewhat complex, but eventually boils down to the fact that a special group called the alternating group of order 5 (denoted A_5) has a property known as simplicity. This property, when converted from pure group theory to the theory of polynomials, translates to their being no way to build up the roots of an arbitrary fifth-order (quintic) polynomial using radical operations. Galois theory itself is a clever hack that lets you take a polynomial and discuss it in terms of a group structure (specifically the group of "legitimate" ways to rearrange its roots).

      I can go on about this for hours (have just sat through half a term of Galois Theory and Number Fields) so will stop now.

      --
      For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
    4. Re:How is that called? by shobadobs · · Score: 1

      Sure, *some* fifth-order polynomials are factorable to a set of reduced-order polynominals, but not all.

      The other part of your post is true, but this statement stands out as false. Any nth-degree polynomial can be factored into something of the form (x - x1)(x - x2)...(x - xn).

    5. Re:How is that called? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      hmm doesn't the cubic formulae contain a cube root?

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  13. It's been solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I typed in the ISBN into Google. Google told me 0 - 7432 - 5820 - 7 = -13259 Simple.

    1. Re:It's been solved by alva_edison · · Score: 1

      It'll wokr correctly if you include ISBN in your search, Using google as a calculator isn't extremely useful unless you type in something like 3.5 teaspoons in liters. Or other unit conversions

      --
      He effected a bored affect.
  14. if you want to learn a bit about group theory by flynt · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are countless (obviously not really) books on group theory at all different levels. If you're not a math major and want to learn a bit about group theory (and rings, too) from a book that makes it interesting, historical, and gives motivation for the theory, check out Galian's "Contemporary Abstract Algebra". This book clearly isn't meant to prepare you for graduate level algebra, but that's not what many of us are going for of course. It introduces the theory with LOTS of examples, and even relates most of the theory to ways you can use it in practice to solve all sorts of different problems in "real life". Check it out!

    1. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by jfengel · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, you got it partly right: there are an infinite number of books on group theory, but they're countably infinite, because each is of finite length, so you can assign an integer value to each (say, the ASCII coding of the book). And they're a subset of the countably infinite set of all books.

      Of course, only some of them have actually been written and sold, and that's a small and finite number. The books on group theory which have yet to be written are all out there, but it's left as an exercise to the writer.

      (Eh, it was a good joke when I started writing it.)

    2. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Magnusite · · Score: 1

      Also, check out Stoll's book if you want a really thorough introduction to sets, groups, rings, fields, predicate calculus, first order axiomatic theories, and a pretty good explanation of Gödel's theorem. It's actually quite readable and thorough.

    3. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Magnusite · · Score: 1
      Well, I almost would have given you points for being funny, but

      1) You're wrong (these are finite sets), and
      2) This is a bad translation straight out of Stoll's book. Read the second paragraph.

    4. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you some kind of idiot? There are countably many possible books, of which
      only finitely many have been published. If you can't understand that, go back
      to grade school.

    5. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Surt · · Score: 1

      Are you sure they're infinite? You can only add so much random material before the book will fall outside the set of books 'on' group theory. Sure, it's a large set of books, but infinite? I don't think so.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    6. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by jfengel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, anecdotally I can tell you that when my group theory prof was talking, one got the very strong impression that he was never going to shut up. Which leads me to think that there's an infinite number of things to say about group theory. Or at the very least, you can say the same things over and over again.

      (Just kidding; he was actually a fine lecturer.)

    7. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Dude, what are you talking about? That's clearly an undergraduate textbook in Abstract Algebra. It covers everything you need to know on the topic before going into graduate school. Or are you from the "If it's not Dummit & Foote, it's not abstract algebra" school of thought?

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    8. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by ultranova · · Score: 0

      there are an infinite number of books on group theory, but they're countably infinite, because each is of finite length, so you can assign an integer value to each (say, the ASCII coding of the book). And they're a subset of the countably infinite set of all books.

      Except that ASCII coding cannot express the content of all possible books. There is no ASCII codes for egyptian hieroglyps, for examples, and plenty of books (I'm counting papyrys scrolls, stone tablets and stick-on notes; otherwise we'll sink into an argument about the definition of a book, and it isn't the least bit relevant for this discussion, since nothing stops anyone from writing a book with egyptian hieroglyphs) have been written with them. Not to mention the arrowhead writings and such.

      In fact it is easy to show that there is no limit to the amount of possible symbols used in writing; if you use one symbol per concept to be expressed (as hieroglyphs did, altought they didn't invent new symbols for every text - unless you want to consider the text, as a whole, to be a symbol), you have as many symbols as there is possible concepts, and there is infinite amount of concepts, since you can simply keep on combining more basic concepts into more complex ones, and those into even more complex ones, and so forth.

      Coming to think of it, this means that there must be one such symbol for each book ever written, since a book is a combination of concepts and therefore a concept itself, and much more (one for every concept that isn't a book, like Sun or Moon or Earth); however, since books are combination of concepts, there must be at least one book for each concept - or, if we refuse to call a bunch of empty pages a book, there must be eaxctly one book for every concept. In other words, the set of all possible concepts must be bigger than the set of all possible books, and the set of all possible books must be equal to the set of all possible concepts, and both are uncountably infinite.

      I think I just got tangled on my own logic. Help ?

      It also occurs to me that I'm writing this at eleven fifteen on a Friday night. Sigh...

      Oh, and the set of all possible concepts is uncountably infinite because it is a superset of the set of real numbers (and a lot of other things), and the set of real numbers is uncountably infinite. The set of all books must be uncountably infinite because there is one book for every concept, so it is the same size as the set of all concepts, which is uncountably infinite.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    9. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Saarus · · Score: 1

      It can be shown via Cantor's diagonal proof that there are books on group theory which cannot be written.

      --
      "That man lives best who's fain to live half mad, half sane." -Flemish Poet Jan Van Stijevoort, 1524.
    10. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget about large cardinals - In ZFC, a strongly inaccessible cardinal Kappa most certainly ontologically entails the existence of a Kappa many concepts (much like a limit ordinal Phi ontologically entails the existence of distinct concepts (upto isomorphism) corresponding to all of its transitive subsets), and the proper class of all Kappa many concepts bijected with all Lambda Kappa cardinals may most certainly sit much higher than \omega_1 !

    11. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by weierstrass · · Score: 1

      Anonymous Coward is right. There are countably infinitely many possible books, and countably infinitely many of them are about group theory.

      Your reference gets a finite number only by (arbitrarily) restricting the maximum length of a book to 100,000 characters. There exists in fact no such restriction on the length of books. If you allow books of arbitrary, but finite length, there are infinitely many of them.

      Go to the back of the class.

      --
      my password really is 'stinkypants'
    12. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dummit and Foote is also an undergrad level book. Algebra for grownups is covered in Lang, Hungerford, Birkhoff and Maclane, or Jacobson. If you want to learn group theory then go read Rotman, Hall, and Gorenstein. Those don't talk about representations that much though so you should also read Alperin and Bell, and Fulton and Harris. After you are done you will know a bit about group theory.

    13. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      You're just trolling. Rotman is hard, but Birkhoff Maclane is obviously an undergraduate text. I went through that one (and Hall) as a supplement to Gallian during a semester class. Dummit & Foote is 1100 pages, and covers material on algebraic geometry and homological algebra. It's obviously meant for a first year graduate student.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    14. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Captain+DaFt · · Score: 1

      Uh, no, he was right they *are* countless. (I sure ain't gonna count'em!)

      --
      The U.S. really needs an English to Wisdom dictionary.
    15. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose I was not as clear as I should have been. Birkhoff and MacLane have two algebra books. Algebra is a graduate level book, and A Survery of Modern Algebra is an undergraduate level book. I suspect you are thinking of the latter. I was also referring to Rotman's group theory book Introduction to the Theory of Groups, and not his general algebra books Advanced Modern Algebra and A First Course in Abstract Algebra. Once again, I suspect you were thinking of one of the latter two books. The book by Marshall Hall Jr. is called Theory of Groups. If that is the book that you read, then I'm glad. It is a very nice introduction to group theory.

      As for Dummit and Foote, it is long and covers many topics, but it is not up to the level of the other books I mentioned. Many people use it as an undergradute level text. I think it is most useful as a suplement or reference, but not as a pimary text for a graduate level algebra course.

    16. Re:if you want to learn a bit about group theory by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Well, I went through B&M's "A Survey of Modern Algebra" as a freshman to supplement the "Introductory Analysis" courseware. I was indeed referring to their "Algebra" when I said I went through it during my semester in Abstract Algebra. I'm also familiar with both of Rotman's works, though I went through "Advanced Modern Algebra." I glanced through his group theory book at one point because a friend was writing his thesis on group representations in the theory of Lie groups.

      I much prefer analysis (and the other "alternating quantifiers" branches) to algebra, so this whole argument may have been caused by my irrational bias. In particular, you don't get to things like algebraic topology in the analysis track except as a supplement to relatively advanced analysis. But I did like Hall very much. There are some very nice exercises in that book.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
  15. Worth the Few Bucks by fossa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Worth the few bucks", or maybe a trip to the library?

    1. Re:Worth the Few Bucks by 70Bang · · Score: 1



      If it's bucks you're after, take a look at the challenges Paul Erdos (RIP) created and the price he put on their solutions. I got to study with him for awhile. It's too bad we couldn't have sent a few other people in his stead and kept him here.


    2. Re:Worth the Few Bucks by ivano · · Score: 1

      Curiously, what's your Erdos number? Ciao

    3. Re:Worth the Few Bucks by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 1

      I'm currently using Gallian for my Mod Alg course and I find it a raging peice of crap. I must mention that most of the books that I like are from the 60's or earlier, so take that into consideration when accessing my opinion.

      My instructor says all (knowing him, take 'all' with a grain of salt) his students love this book. Most of the students in the class seem to like it, but again, I'd take that with a grain of salt. Most of them are not exactly mathematically literate. You can read that as most of them don't even recognize when induction is appropriate. How most of them made it to 3rd year, I have no idea. Thankfully, I'm a visiting student and this is the only year I have to spend here.

      But, I digress. My thoughts on his book.

      His proofs go into far to much detail when things are obvious and not enough detail when things are not trivial. Which brings me to his "liberal" usage of, proof let to the reader, exercise x. I expect this to a degree, but his usage is a bit much.

      There is also his lack of precision. Which is interesting as this is a math book and precision is expected. This is especially apparent in the chapter on permutation groups. I even found mistakes as a result of his imprecision in this chapter.

      If you learn by example then this is certainly a book to check out. As stated before, there are lots of examples.

      But, if you like the standard, theorem/proof style of book (and if you're in math, you should prefer this style of book), then you should run screaming from this book. There is a lot of material that is relegated to the examples. So, if you read it as you would normally read a text (read: skipping examples unless absolutely necessary) then some of the questions at the end of the chapter will be rather confounding as you'll have missed a good chunk of material that was in the examples. I find this frustrating to no end.

      In fact, at least one (I know of) of the definitions doesn't actually have a "definition is on page x". It's the definition of a cyclic group. It is defined in a example (see frustration remark above). Then in the chapter on cyclic groups, the example is referred to in a paragraph and restated. But, there is no Def: ... like the other definitions.

      What this does is makes it effectively useless for later reference.

      This book is what I refer to a throw away book. Once the course is over, it enters the circular filing cabinet.

      It is also very expensive. Especially considering that its useful lifetime is approx. one year. That is, one year if you follow the standard pace of the class.

      Rest assured that even if you like this book, you'll spend a fair amount of time unwinding his proofs because of the ambiguity.

      Then again, this is only one mans opinion.

      So, as a long winded answer to your question, check it out in the library first. If it speaks to you, then think about shelling out the money. But, if you are really interested in learning this stuff, I'd recommend looking up who teaches Mod Alg at your local University and speaking to him/her/them. Get them to give you a list of books to check out. Don't worry, this won't be too out of there way. They should have a number of them sitting on there book shelf in there office.

      One of my profs at my home university gave me a list as I complained to him about this book over a beer. I've yet to receive one, but knowing him, these are all gold:

      Topics In Algebra - Herstein
      Group Theory - Lederman
      Algebra - Burton
      Rings - McCoy

      And for those looking for a linear algebra book (the more you know the easier life is, don't c'yah know :)), there is:

      Linear Algebra and Matrix Theory - Nering

      Hope that was somewhat helpful.

      Cheers :)

  16. Group Theory Joke by keithmo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Q: What's purple and commutes?

    A: An Abelian grape.

    1. Re:Group Theory Joke by Kid+Brother+of+St.+A · · Score: 3, Funny

      Q: What's purple, commutes, and is worshipped by a small cult of followers?

      A: A finitely venerated abelian grape.

    2. Re:Group Theory Joke by georgevulov · · Score: 1

      Hah! That joke is in my Abstract Algebra book :D

      (Abstract Algebra: A Geometric Approach by Theodore Shifrin, if anyone's wondering).

      --
      TerraIM - my pet AIM client project.
    3. Re:Group Theory Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's really sad that I didn't get this joke, given that I took abstract algebra in college. Well it turns out that it's a play on words with "abelian group" and there's also the fact that word commute in the joke is a double-entendre refering to the fact that grapes commute (i.e. convert into another form) into raisins. That makes it the worst kind of pun because I wasn't even aware of that definition of commute. *sigh* For that, I'm going to be a jerk and disprove the joke. :-)

      [spoiler below]

      We're told by the joke's hypothesis that transformation operator (x T y) is commutative; therefore, we know that (x T y) = (y T x). This can be expressed in english as "a grape becomes a raisin" is equivalent to "a raisin becomes a grape". However, the latter is known to be impossible; therefore, it creates a contradition with the hypothesis. QED, the the joke does not compute. Err I mean commute.

    4. Re:Group Theory Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, is that what we are calling a niggers on the bus these days? "Abelian Grapes?"

  17. Math is all about the dupes by everphilski · · Score: 2

    I mean, come on, how many times have you seen "x"

    or "cos()" "sin()"

    -everphilski-

    1. Re:Math is all about the dupes by dorkygeek · · Score: 2
      That's the very reason I always fell asleep during math lectures. It's always the same, day in and day out. It's always about x and y.

      --
      Windows is like decaf - it tastes like the real thing, but it won't get you through the day.
  18. Quadratic Equation by sameerdesai · · Score: 4, Informative

    FTFR: You've probably studied the quadratic equation-- ax^2+bx+c=0-- as well as the quadratic formula, used to solve this equation-- x= (b(+/-)sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a

    The roots of the equation are x = (-b(+/-)sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a

    1. Re:Quadratic Equation by farker+haiku · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, just because you actually read what the poster wrote, you get the easy karma points.

      --
      Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
    2. Re:Quadratic Equation by servognome · · Score: 5, Funny

      x = (-b(+/-)sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a

      Is it me or is 1337 sp3ak getting even harder to understand :)

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    3. Re:Quadratic Equation by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1

      Oh, be charitable; one of those two dashes in front of the "x=" was meant as a negative! But on the other hand, the quadratic formula is not used to "solve" an equation any more than looking up the answer to a puzzle in the back of the book is solving it. For that, you need to "complete the square" or know/come up with other factoring tricks.

    4. Re:Quadratic Equation by sixteenraisins · · Score: 1

      The quadratic formula is derived by an algebraic process which involves completing the square.

      And isn't a solution the result of "solving" an equation? I think the quadratic formula does this quite nicely.

      --
      When you're not looking, this sig is in Latin.
    5. Re:Quadratic Equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, I was just thinking Perl was getting easier.

    6. Re:Quadratic Equation by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1

      "The quadratic formula is derived by an algebraic process which involves completing the square."

      Yes, and the derivation of the quadratic equation is the solving of it - using algebraic manipulations to replace the original equation with one in the form, x= ...(stuff with no x's or f(x)'s in it). The point I'm trying to make is that just knowing the quadratic equation gives you no insight as to how it was derived, nor does it give you insights as to how to solve other equations (say, cubics).

      "And isn't a solution the result of "solving" an equation? I think the quadratic formula does this quite nicely."

      The converse is not necessarily so - for instance, I could fairly easily come up with a 200 digit number, and say, "factor it". After you struggle with it for a while, I then could present you with the "solution" - two 100 digit primes, which you could easily verify multiply to check if I am right or not. But just because you have a SOLUTION, that does not give you any insight into the process of SOLVING (i.e. did I really just factor (how?) a 200-digit number or did I generate it from the answers in the first place?). If I was to tweak a quadratic equation slightly, say ask you to solve, (ax+b)*(cx+d)=e, the quadratic formula would be useless to you unless you had other knowledge of algebra. Ultimately, the quadratic formula is a limited result of much more general algebraic techniques, all of which ultimately derive themselves from the real number axioms.

      If you just want solutions without knowledge of how they come up, you probably wouldn't be interested in this book anyway....

    7. Re:Quadratic Equation by Squiffy · · Score: 1

      I've always preferred x = -b/2a +- sqrt((b/2a)^2 - c/a).

    8. Re:Quadratic Equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the form of the solution you present is correct, but it's *not* the one that should be used numerically (by computer). This is because you are performing a sum of quantities that are not necessarily close to each other, and that leads to rounding problems. Google Eric's Treasure Trove of Mathematics for a more "stable" expression for the roots.

    9. Re:Quadratic Equation by PostFutura · · Score: 1
      x = (-b(+/-)sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a
      Is it me or is 1337 sp3ak getting even harder to understand :)

      It must be the East-Side 1337 sp34k... Thank god i sp34k the West-Side

      --
      I don't know what i'm talking about so could you Please stop reading my post.
    10. Re:Quadratic Equation by shemnon · · Score: 1

      It's not the answer that is in error, but the question. It should be ax^2 -bx + c = 0.

      Remember, a correct program is one with an even number of sign errors!

      --
      --Shemnon
  19. Pop Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yeah, right. Pop Math. My friends I are always discussing popular equations around the water cooler.

    I love it when I can throw in a funny "pop math" reference.

    1. Re:Pop Math? by richieb · · Score: 1
      Funny, but we were actually talking about hyperbolic space at lunch. And we're just a bunch of Java programmers ... ;-)

      --
      ...richie - It is a good day to code.
    2. Re:Pop Math? by ILLEGAL+Alien · · Score: 2, Funny

      The only way to bring math into the pop culture and call it pop-math would be to thinker up a formula for getting girls... ...but unfortunately f^3+b^2+r=0 where f=flowers b=begging r=ring ...still equals ZERO.

    3. Re:Pop Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know how to party!

    4. Re:Pop Math? by The+Cydonian · · Score: 1

      Two of my flatmates discuss (mathematical) functions all the time, especially when they're drunk. One dude apparently almost flunked math at school, while the other was his school's topper, so I suppose they do compliment each other.

  20. Mod down, same kaleidojewel spam as always by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Informative? Please... don't be fooled by AC's "Fermat's Last Theorem is teh cool too!" statement. It's the same Amazon-referral-whoring post (see the redirect) that he sticks in every book review. Pathetic.

    1. Re:Mod down, same kaleidojewel spam as always by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      1: Stick an amazon referral in every review post.
      2: Some people buy the book through the link.
      3: PROFIT!

      Sounds like a business model to me.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  21. Re:A hard equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Set n=2.4879391731181746675433584949641.

    4^n + 5^n = 6^n seems to hold and x,y,z are non-zero integers.

  22. Experienced Readers ??? by lexsco · · Score: 1

    Experienced readers will revisit a familiar topic.....

    I'm an experienced reader, but that doe not mean that this book makes sense !

  23. Hmmm. by jd · · Score: 1

    What happens if you ferment a bunch of Abelian grapes in a Klein bottle?

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Hmmm. by tehshen · · Score: 1

      You get an Abelian Soup.

      --
      Guy asked me for a quarter for a cup of coffee. So I bit him.
    2. Re:Hmmm. by IntelliTubbie · · Score: 2, Funny

      What happens if you ferment a bunch of Abelian grapes in a Klein bottle?

      I suppose you'd get very disoriented.

      Cheers,
      IT

      --

      Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.

    3. Re:Hmmm. by Homology · · Score: 1
      What happens if you ferment a bunch of Abelian grapes in a Klein bottle?

      Algebraic geometry.

    4. Re:Hmmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reminds me of when I told my math professor that I stuck my homework in a Klein bottle for safe keeping, but I couldn't get it out...

      He asked me just how the hell I was able to place it inside in the first place.

    5. Re:Hmmm. by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      What happens if you ferment a bunch of Abelian grapes in a Klein bottle?

      I suppose you'd get very disoriented.


              Wish I had mod points. I'm not saying which way I'd mod your post, but that's because I'm nonorientable. Nice one.

  24. I'm sorry, but it's /. and we're perfectionists by Petrini · · Score: 0, Redundant

    x= (b(+/-)sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a

    Shouldn't that be "x= (-b(+/-)...)?

  25. hmm dyscalculia by orbit86 · · Score: 1

    math is good and all but where are the books for students with dyscalculia and taking finite math?

    1. Re:hmm dyscalculia by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      And, of course, will someone please think of the children?

    2. Re:hmm dyscalculia by orbit86 · · Score: 1

      sarcasm???

    3. Re:hmm dyscalculia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen to that! I'm adding this to my "List of books I'll never buy". Why in the world would I buy this after having taken Calculus 3 times and finally realizing that, hey, the prof was actually teaching from his dissertation, not from the book! I actually realized it on the 4th try when I actually got a teacher who hated these books as much as I did and taught using REAL WORLD CONCEPTS AND APPLICATIONS. Imagine that.

      Wanna know why the U.S. lags the world in math? Books and professors like these doing mental masturbation. Works for them, but not for anyone else.

    4. Re:hmm dyscalculia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      too bad dyscalculia isn't actually real

      maybe i'm just dysempathetic though

  26. Re:A hard equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n is generally assumed to be a natural number.

  27. Solve this... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1
    One we tried to solve in high school:

    Integral x^x dx

    It seems like a found a solution for it (this was a long time ago), but I think I later on figured out it was wrong. I haven't thought about it in a long time, but I suspect it's not integrateable. Any opinions from math geeks? I'm actually kind of curious.

    --
    Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    1. Re:Solve this... by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 1

      Um, why isn't it just (x^2)^x-1?

    2. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

    3. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't. That is a well-known proposition in mathematics. You can however give a power series that approximates the integral over x^x from 0 to the dependent upper limit y. For example

      integral x^x from x=0 to y = 1*y+(1/2*ln(y)-1/4)*y^2 + O(y^3).

      BTW current QOTD is:
      "If God is perfect, why did He create discontinuous functions?"

    4. Re:Solve this... by Koroviev · · Score: 1

      There is no analytical solution. See here.

    5. Re:Solve this... by rewt66 · · Score: 1

      I solved it in high school, but not in closed form, so for a lot of people, that doesn't count.

      I saw a proof here on /. that it couldn't be solved in closed form, but I don't remember what it was. Something like x^x = e^(x ln(x)), and for e^(f(x)) to be integrable, f has to have certain properties.

      Digression: if you really think about it, functions like sin(x) and ln(x) are really not closed form either - they are infinite series. But they are infinite series that we have given names to, and which we can place specific meanings on what they evaluate to.

    6. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come one, you could at least have done the reverse check:

      d (x^2)^x-1 / dx = (x^2)^x*(ln(x^2)+2) which certainly isn't x^x.

    7. Re:Solve this... by loserMcloser · · Score: 1

      Digression: if you really think about it, functions like sin(x) and ln(x) are really not closed form either - they are infinite series.

      What the hell are you talking about?

      sin has a very concrete definition - given some angle, it is the ratio of two particular sides of a triangle which contains that angle. That's basic trigonometry...

      And ln also has a very concrete definition -- in fact there are several ways to do it. One way: Define ln(x) (for x>1) to be the area of the region under the graph of 1/x from 1 to x. For 0<x<1, define ln(x) to be the negative of the area of the region under the graph of 1/x from x to 1.

    8. Re:Solve this... by podperson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      if you really think about it, functions like sin(x) and ln(x) are really not closed form either

      Think about it harder.

      You can express anything as an infinite series. E.g. 1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ..., so I can't integrate S 1 dx ?

    9. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, yeah. And how exactly did you define "angle" and the relationship between "sin" and "angle"?

    10. Re:Solve this... by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1

      No,

      integral a^b da = 1/(b+1)*a^(b+1)

      only works because you are integrating with respect to a, not with respect to b.

    11. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats why he said it was not the answer, idiot.

    12. Re:Solve this... by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      While that "definition" you mention for the basic trigonometric functions certainly captures the intent, they really do not work, or, at least, do not work with considerable more work involved, if you want to be able to soundly make use of the function in calculus. Basically, you need to set up a big part of plane geometry, and then build calculus all the way up to rectification of curves to begin to be able to talk about attaching real numbers to angles.

      More efficient ways are: (1) define the functions from their Taylor series, (or equivalent, define it from the extension of the exponential function to the complex domain) and from that prove the relation to angles, &c, and (2) consider the function f(x)=1/Sqrt(1-x^2), consider a primitive F to f, show F has an inverse function, and define sin = F^{-1}. The first option is quite expeditive though slightly too ad hoc; the second option is really the good one in many ways, and generalized to elliptic functions and other trascendentals; indeed, Carl Jacobi, impressed by the success this technique has in dealing with elliptic functions, chose "You must always invert" as a little advice to success in mathematics.

    13. Re:Solve this... by loserMcloser · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting the concept of angle has to be defined in terms of infinite series? Go read a basic math book or something. Angles and trigonometry are at their core just basic geometry.

      All you need to assume is that you have some way of accurately measuring lengths. Create a circle whose radius is length 1 unit. If you have two radii of the circle, you can define the angle between those two line segments as the length of the arc of the circle subtended.

      Then the relationship between sin and angle is very straightforward using the basic geometric concept of lengths of sides of triangles.

    14. Re:Solve this... by loserMcloser · · Score: 1

      Hmm, it doesn't take much geometry to be able to calculate the derivatives of the trigonometric functions from first principles, and from there it is easy to calculate their Taylor series. So this naive definition of trigonometry using triangles is really not so useless after all. Sure there may be other ways of thinking of the trigonometric functions which are better for other applications, but for the argument at hand (that sin is not "closed form"), it serves pretty well.

    15. Re:Solve this... by Xophmeister · · Score: 1

      This is a somewhat tangential comment, but it concerns the good ol' chesnut that is x^x...

      We've all differentiated this to find it's minimum, etc., etc. - that's standard fare of basic calculus classes. However, what's quite interesting are the the values for which x^x exists (i.e. is real) for negative real values of x... It's not rocket science. Answers on a postcard :)

      --

      Christopher Harrison

    16. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Think about it harder.

      Think about it a little bit harder.

      Sin(x) and ln(x) are transcendental functions. Any function or value can be expressed in terms of an infinite series. Some functions and values can not be represented without an infinite series. Functions such as sin(x) and ln(x). These are not "closed form." They are functions that can only be expressed (generally) as infinite sums, which we gave given specific names to.

    17. Re:Solve this... by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      The problem is that in order to compute derivatives and what not,you nou need a definition of the sin function for each real number. If you define sin of alpha as the ratio of two sides of a triangle which is some how related to the angle, well,you need to set upthings so that all those terms make sense, definitions are ok, and so on.

      As I said before, the geometrical "definition" of the sin function depends on geometry, and that is a big thing to depend on... Defining angle in highly non trivial!

      A similar thing tends to happen with the exponential function. Most calculus courses do not give a sound definition of the exponential function. It is not hard to do (on the integers it is clear how to define it, from there to rationals you have not a lot of trouble, and then you show, for example, that there is exactly one continuous function which on the rationals is given by that) But, in the end, things like 2^pi are left undefined in calculus courses, and handled "intuitively".

      As for the argument at hand, "closed form" is a relative term. There is no point arguing whether the sine function is in closed form or not: "closed form" usually means "finitely expressable in terms of a given set of primitives" (where the chosen set of primitives depends on the context; for example, elliptic integrals are considered not to be integrable to closed form in a calculus course, but in any function theory course elliptic functions are part ofthe standard set od trascendentals, so elliptic integrals are trivially integrable to closed form in that context) That is why I did not even mention that "argument at hand".

    18. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm not quite sure what you mean by that so I apologize if this comes off as an attack on your statement. Not being expressible in closed form doesn't really have anything to do with being a 'legitimate' function (if that's what you meant). Sine and cosine are in the set of transcendental functions meaning that they can never be expressed with a finite number of algebraic operations. But this doesn't make them any less 'real' than algebraic functions such as f(x) = x^2. They are well defined mappings between a set of real number and another set of real numbers. The numbers pi and e cannot be expressed algebraically either (that is, built up using finite operations on some set of natural numbers) but they're just as real (no pun intended) as 6 billion or sqrt(2) though I guess you could also say they're just some series to which we happened to assign a name... but, as another poster pointed out, that goes for any number.

    19. Re:Solve this... by noblethrasher · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure what you mean by that so I apologize if this comes off as an attack on your statement. Not being expressible in closed form doesn't really have anything to do with being a 'legitimate' functions (if that's what you meant). Sine and cosine are in the set of transcendental functions meaning that they can never be expressed with a finite number of algebraic operations. But this doesn't make them any less 'real' than algebraic functions such as f(x) = x^2. They are well defined mappings between a set of real number and another set of real numbers. The numbers pi and e cannot be expressed algebraically either (that is, built up using finite operations on some set of natural numbers) but they're just as real (no pun intended) as 6 billion or sqrt(2) though I guess you could also say they're just some series to which we happened to assign a name... but, as another poster pointed out, that goes for any number.

    20. Re:Solve this... by ericcantona · · Score: 0

      except discontinuous functions.

      --
      When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown in to the sea
    21. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha, yeah, you're right, that is interesting.

    22. Re:Solve this... by raoul666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      You have to integrate by parts. I forget how to do that, mind you, but I remember it working.

      Slightly off-topic, while doing calculus in high school, me and a friend were trying to solve some optimization problem. We worked on it for quite a while, and when we'd done all we could, we collected like terms and gazed at our hard-earned solution: 6=4. We had a hell of a time with that one, I tell you.

      --
      When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl
    23. Re:Solve this... by mcmonkey · · Score: 1
      1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ...

      Well, maybe for small values of 1. Otherwise, the series on the right approaches, but never equals, 1.

    24. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong - you just made a giant leap from assuming you can define the length of straight lines to assuming you can accurately measure arc length, without setting up a huge geometric axiom system. How would you do this? Go ahead, try. If you don't resort to "string and bent ruler" definitions of arc length, or circular definitions involving angle->arc-length->angle, you will find that arc length is a concept that only makes sense when you start to either implictly assume properties of pi and trig functions, or explictly defining them using calculus.

      You have been reading too many basic math books, and you don't understand the concepts at a more fundamental level. So don't lecture others.

    25. Re:Solve this... by snarkh · · Score: 1

      The series on the right equals 1.

    26. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you fail calculus.

    27. Re:Solve this... by PenguiN42 · · Score: 1

      And ln also has a very concrete definition -- in fact there are several ways to do it. One way: Define ln(x) (for x>1) to be the area of the region under the graph of 1/x from 1 to x. For 0

      Yes, ln(x) can be defined as the area under the graph of 1/x from 1 to x. But "area under the graph" is just a definite integral -- your equation is still not in closed form!

      I think your problem is that you're confusing "closed form" and "concrete definition." I'm no super-math-man, but "closed form" is more along the lines of "can be exactly represented with a finite formula using only certain operations (addition, division, multiplication, radicals, etc)" -- note that "measurement" is definitely not included.

      (Of course, practically, one allows well-known-functions and constants such as sin(x) or pi to be part of "closed form" equations, even though those functions don't have closed-form representations themselves, which was the OP's point.)

      --
      The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence was false.
    28. Re:Solve this... by drxenos · · Score: 1

      There are quirks in integral calculus that lead to solutions such as 1=0 and 1=-1.

      --


      Anonymous Cowards suck.
    29. Re:Solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually things which can be represented as an infinite series are quite rare. We call them analytic, and even many analytic functions have points which cannot be calculated as infinite series (essential singularities, say the logarithm at 0, can attain any value depending on how you approach them). And howabout the characteristic function of the Cantor set? Or Weierstrass' function?

      You can say something weaker: in sufficiently nice spaces (L^p space spring to mind) you can approximate a function by a continuous function almost everywhere (i.e., except on a set of measure zero). However, the rationals form a set of measure zero in the reals, so that can actually be quite ugly.

      More on topic, a group theory text which does a very nice job of making the connection with symmetries is Wu-Ki Tung's 'Group Theory in Physics' -- though you need to know some quantum mechanics before you tackle it, and it probably would be good to go through a book like 'Groups and their Graphs' by Grossman as well. Tung makes it all the way through symmetry analysis of relativistic wave equations, and his selection of theorems is really first rate. He also proves all of them, which is a welcome change from most math for physicists books.

  28. Basic definitions without equality? by nightlylemma · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Group theory is the simplest sort of 'mathematical abstraction' (actually, it is a step past set theory) in that numbers and equations play no part in its basic definitions.

    I thought, and Algebra by Isaacs confirms, that a group is a set G with an associative binary operation * such that there exists e in G with properties:
    1. For each x in G, x*e=e*x=x.
    2. For each x in G, there is a y in G such that x*y=y*x=e.
    Can anyone give the definition that doesn't use equations? I didn't think so.
    1. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by flynt · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what that comment meant either. I can do set theory without thinking about group theory. I can't do group theory (can't even define a group) without using sets. So I don't know what the poster meant by that.

    2. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Yes you can do this non contructively. Either define the catagory of groups in terms of either derived functors or as universal objects with respect to other catagories. Then the elements of catagory are by definition "groups".

      I'm not sure if you have ever seen catagory theory and universals but a good (2nd semester or assuming a good undergrad background) graduate algebra class would have gone through universals.

    3. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah here let's try this (though I do bias myself toward operators)

      1) Given and operator there is another operator in the same group that doesn't change the operator
      2) For every operator there is an undo operator such that when they are sequentially combined the result is an effective operator that doesn't change anything.

    4. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by JCY2K · · Score: 1

      Sure I can... Let G be an associative group with an associative binary operation. There is an identity in G, let us call it 'e' with the following properities. 1) For every x in G, taking the operation of x on e is equivalent to the operation of e on x is the same as x itself. 2) For every x in G, there is an inverse of x, denoted 'y' such that taking the operation of x on y is equivalent to the operation of y on x is the same as the identity e. ~V 'Remember, remember, the fifth of November'

    5. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by jkauzlar · · Score: 1

      I meant what you said.. groups need sets but sets don't need groups. As far as my comment about not needing equations, I was of course totally wrong; I should of said something to the effect that, unlike algebra or calculus, equations aren't the central focus of study... well, that's not quite precise either.. oh well

    6. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by scottc229 · · Score: 1

      A definition that puts the second line into a natural language without symbols:

      A binary, associative operational system, which allows for both left and right cancellation, and has a neutral element. (stating a neutral element still requires symbols, but I feel that left and right cancellation are intuitive enough as terms so as not to require it).

    7. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 2, Informative

      A group is a set of elements under a binary operation (that is associative) such that:

      1) there is an element call the identity such that:
                - it is commutative with all elements of the group
                - under the binary operation, the identity with a non-identity element results in that same non-identity element

      2) for every non-identity element there is another non-identity element that under the binary operation results in the identity that commutes with said non-identity element.

      3) for any two elements in the group, under the binary operation of the group, the result is in the group.

      I think that given this word definition of a group, no-one will argue that the equation form is not superior.

    8. Re:Basic definitions without equality? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your definition does not define the operation on two identities. I think you can safely remove all the non-identity qualifiers from 1 and 2.

  29. Last words by Kevan_moran · · Score: 1

    Wikipedia reckons that Galois's last words were "Don't cry, Alfred! I need all my courage to die at twenty." I'm sure that I read some where they were "What a wast to die over some stupid bint"

    1. Re:Last words by drewxhawaii · · Score: 1

      i much prefer the latter.

      i shall do my best, if circumstances allow, to make these my last words...

  30. Re:A hard equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hah! Nice try whore, I know a referral link when I see one.

  31. Sometimes s. by everphilski · · Score: 2

    (Perhaps you slept through Laplace transforms?)

    -everphilski-

    1. Re:Sometimes s. by dorkygeek · · Score: 1
      The probability is approx. 1 that I was asleep then.

      Oh, and btw., if you're into quality dreaming, nothing beats a good lecture about polynomial fitting. Gives really nice templates for upcoming fancies! And not to forget finding tightest circles around point clouds. Mmmhhh! Especially if there are two independent clouds in the graph.

      --
      Windows is like decaf - it tastes like the real thing, but it won't get you through the day.
  32. Re:A hard equation by 70Bang · · Score: 1



    You'll save more by shopping via the 'bot at AddAll.com. You can usually get the book + shipping for less than the "discounted" book price (alone) at Amazon.

    If you don't want to do it, send me the Amazon money and I'll send you the book when I get it from one of the less expensive outlets [and I'll keep the difference].

    I have yet to understand why everyone heads to Amazon or B&N like a dog in heat. Do your research there, then save yourself money elsewhere.

  33. attention mr book reviewer by Clover_Kicker · · Score: 1

    > If you've studied group theory, you've probably heard it called
    > 'the language of symmetry' or referred to by some such vague,
    > colorful non-description, while your professor and textbook
    > direct you to just memorize the handful of basic axioms,
    > definitions, and theorems that reveal little to the unknowing
    > eye in the way of having much to do with symmetry.

    That sentence deserves to be taken out and shot.

    You may have had an interesting point but I'll never know - I stopped reading.

    1. Re:attention mr book reviewer by DoubleReed · · Score: 1

      Thank you for saying that, I agree completely.

      The first chapter of the group theory textbook I looked at was about all the rotations that could be done to bring a three dimensional object back to an equivalent position.

      Maybe the person who wrote this article learned about group theory in the context of encryption? But even there you get a picture of cutting a set perfectly in half.

    2. Re:attention mr book reviewer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least one popular algebra text, Dummit & Foote, deals with group theory almost entirely in terms of formal symbols. Very dull, though it does provide a solid foundation for higher algebra.

    3. Re:attention mr book reviewer by jkauzlar · · Score: 1
      I'll stand by that sentence. It was years ago when I first studied group theory-- it was taught in a very standard format-- and I remember always thinking how the talk of symmetry was more confusing than helpful. Only in symmetry groups did the concept seem useful or relevant. Think about it: the usual lay-conception of symmetry doesn't work on, say, a non-abelian group. If you lay out the usual table of symbols and products, it isn't symmetric about the i=j line. What kind of symmetry exists besides visual symmetry? The word symmetry usually refers to something you can see. When I was new to group theory, I thought "this doesn't look symmetric! why is my professor talking about symmetry?!" It was a mental leap at the time to consider that a group that didn't have some sort of visual symmetry could be isomorphic to the symmetry groups or have a symmetric property that I couldn't 'see'.

      Now I may not have passed all of the mental competency exams with flying colors, but I think its reasonable to say that first-year group theory courses don't always explain the concept of symmetry that clearly. My point, since you declined to read further, was to say that this book does, in fact, provide an intuitive notion of the symmetry concept to a greater extent than textbooks or instructors. Admittedly not the most common obstacle in learning group theory, but I needed a lede dammit! :)

    4. Re:attention mr book reviewer by Clover_Kicker · · Score: 1

      I'm not arguing your point. I'm giving you a well-deserved grammar flame.

        > If you've studied group theory, you've probably heard it called
      > 'the language of symmetry' or referred to by some such vague,
      > colorful non-description, while your professor and textbook
      > direct you to just memorize the handful of basic axioms,
      > definitions, and theorems that reveal little to the unknowing
      > eye in the way of having much to do with symmetry.

      That sentence is too long. It contains too many ideas, and too many superfluous words.

      Here's my suggestion -

      Group theory is often unhelpfuly called 'the language of symmetry'. Your professor and textbook direct you to memorize the basic axioms, definitions, and theorems that have little to do with symmetry.

      "some such"
      "in the way of"
      "to do with"

      These are zero content filler phrases. You aren't trying to pad out a high school book report - get to the point and sell me on why this is an interesting book.

      You wouldn't add extra steps to a mathematical proof, you'd list your steps clearly and succinctly. Your readers would appreciate your prose organized with similar care.

      PS - Nothing personal, I'm being blunt to get your attention. My own writing was similar to yours until someone called me on it. My first draft of this post was a rambling disorganized mess, I had to consciously edit it down to something coherant.

    5. Re:attention mr book reviewer by jkauzlar · · Score: 1

      Well then... nevermind what I said before. And you're right, the sentence is rather an uncomfortable read. That's one of the disadvantages of attending the Henry Miller School of Prose-Writing and Mathematics. I should have gone to State like my parents wanted me to..

    6. Re:attention mr book reviewer by jkauzlar · · Score: 1

      Turns out the original post was referring to my run-on sentence, but I had replied to him explaining my reasons for stating that mathematical symmetry is a difficult concept to grasp at first. My reasoning was simply that you're used to seeing visual symmetry, which makes sense when studying symmetry groups, but is more difficult to grasp when nothing about a group *looks* symmetrical... see the provided link for more information. I would be surprised if most people didn't have the same problems in first-year abstract algebra.

  34. Well-hidden? by slavemowgli · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "kept well-hidden"? Sorry, but that at least is utter rubish. No part of mathematics is kept well-hidden by anyone really; it's just that

    1. the general public isn't really interested in mathematics (unlike physics, for example; most non-mathematicians I've met seem to have an instinctive averse reaction when you even say "mathematics")

    2. mathematics, in general, cannot be dumbed down simplified for laypeople the same way that other natural sciences can. Someone can have a general idea of what a black hole is even when they don't understand the physical theories behind it, but how do you explain to a layperson what a Hilbert space is?

    Coupled together, these things mean that the general public isn't really aware of what mathematicians even study or why it's important to them, but it's not the fault of mathematics (or mathematicians).

    --
    quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    1. Re:Well-hidden? by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1

      "...mathematics, in general, cannot be dumbed down simplified for laypeople the same way that other natural sciences can. Someone can have a general idea of what a black hole is even when they don't understand the physical theories behind it, but how do you explain to a layperson what a Hilbert space is?"

      And isn't that one of the greatest things about it?

      Actually, a large amount of mathematics can be "dumbed down", or, in perhaps more tolerant language, "patiently explained repeatedly and a variety of different ways" so that people can grasp the idea. In doing so, though, you are replacing the authority of mathematics with the authority of the explainer - one of the beautiful things about a proof is that when you understand it, you don't have to take anyone else's word as to whether it is true or not - it IS. But when you skip the technical details (and in doing so, the REASON for the technical details - they help to shape and refine mathematical ideas further), the reason someone believes a proof is that they trust YOU, not the math.

      Perhaps in a way it's nice there is a substiantial barrier to entry - look at what happens at places where there is not. Look, even here at /. , at the limited number of posts on a math topic. Math even wards many geeks away.

    2. Re:Well-hidden? by Omestes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since when was mathematics a natural science?

      It's like saying predicate logic is a natural science.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    3. Re:Well-hidden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mathematics, in general, cannot be dumbed down simplified for laypeople the same way that other natural sciences can. Someone can have a general idea of what a black hole is even when they don't understand the physical theories behind it, but how do you explain to a layperson what a Hilbert space is?

      That's not dumbing-down, it's coming up with analogy that people can grab onto. Math has evolved so that it needs not (or probably more like does not want to) relate to anything physical - that pretty much defines pure math, doesn't it. Similar trend is increasingly taking over particle physics anyways.

    4. Re:Well-hidden? by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

      *nods* Well, mathematics has its share of nutcases, too. :) Biology has creationists; physics has Gene Ray (of time cube fame - or should I say notoriety?), and mathematics has intuitionists (which, one might add, is just as stupid a moniker as "intelligent design" - I don't see anything intuitive about their approach). :)

      But then, of course, this is an area where mathematics and philosophy mix, and unfortunately, the less rigorous approach of philosophy where new theories aren't based on solid proof but rather on personal reputation is influencing that area.

      But luckily, it's pretty much limited to that; most mathematicians getting actual work done [1] seem to follow Dirac for the most part - "shut up and calculate".

      1. On a side note, I'm not trying to rag on those working on the foundations of mathematics. Quite the opposite; I really think this is one of the most fascinating areas of mathematics, but I also think that those that endlessly debate whether "tertium non datur" should be accepted or not and similar things are just indulging in a pseudo-intellectual wankfest, not contributing anything useful.

      --
      quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    5. Re:Well-hidden? by gedhrel · · Score: 1

      Since always. Mathematics is the most successful science there is.

      Don't believe me? Science builds models of the world, and tests those models. What do you think N={0, 1, 2, ...} is? Take the usual ZF construction. It gives you counting numbers. Those numbers appear to behave the same way that the numbers we really count in the physical universe do.

      But the axiomatisations are incomplete (see Goedel 1&2). That is, our models of numbers _provably_ break down.

      It gets worse. Have you ever seen a billion of anything? A trillion? A quadrillion? 10^90? These are "just" finite integers, and yet we've no way to tell if large counting numbers really do behave like our models. The "real" numbers aren't real. Hell, even the large integers aren't really "real".

      The same goes for predicate logic. At one level, just symbol manipulation. At another, a model of the way we think the universe works.

      If you read the epilogue to "Contact", you'll see that the idea, that mathematics and the real counting numbers are subtly different, expressed in a particularly beautiful and profound way (a message left behind in the digits of pi).

      Anyway, that's why mathematics is a natural science; but this idea tends to crop up more in the philosophy of foundational mathematics rather than in day-to-day practice; but ask any mathematician about this and they'll say "sure".

    6. Re:Well-hidden? by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I'm more the philosophical type, than the math type, never really bothered much for the practical in school.

      I don't see pred. logic (or symbolic in general) to be a natural science. Even if it does explain natural phenomena it does so through an abstract and universal means, without ever really touching the grounds of empiricism. Math, it seems is an extention of logic (according to Russell, at least), so I just view it as non-natural science in the same way logic is.

      I think math would boil down to the same thing as logic and physical science, a very very useful toolset for interpretting other data gained from the world, or from the sciences that they support. Look at language for example, if I write a complex description of the plant sitting on my desk, I am using language in the same manner of math or pred. logic (in a simplified form, granted), as a descriptive tool. Logic, math, and language, without an empirical grounding, are empty activities, and that is why I don't think they are natural sciences.

      And now the qualifier, there are certain instances where the line blurs. And, I am not demeaning math, in any way. All my physicist friends always think I'm saying math is meaningless when I make this statement, I'm not, I'm just saying that its meaning relies on outside context.

      Enough philosophy, I'll be quiet now.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    7. Re:Well-hidden? by raydulany · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No. Not every mathematician will say this. For instance, this one thinks you don't know what you're talking about. First off, although it is correct that mathematics is formulated abstractly, the notion that you have of 'model' seems to be seriously misguided: in the natural numbers (N, a mathematical construct) there is no possibility that the numbers in N behave any differently than mathematics says they do, no matter how large they are (there's this thing called induction...if I have to say more, then I no longer think you don't know what you're talking about. I'll *know* you don't know what you're talking about). Second, Goedel's proof doesn't show that the 'models' (and again, I reiterate that you don't use the term correctly) break down, only that in any axiomatic system complex enough to formulate its own self-consistency there are statements which can neither be proved true nor untrue (hardly a 'break down', which I would consider something like finding an inconsistency). Third, mathematics doesn't build models and then test them: it formulates statements and then proves those statements true or untrue (or, as already mentioned, proves those statements can be proven neither true nor untrue under the current assumptions). There is no 'testing' in the sense of other natural sciences: no experiments; no analyzing data; no scientific method (although processes similar in nature to these go into the formulation of statements and their proofs).

        Finally, mathematics is a natural science principally because of its historic (and contemporary) association with physics and other more obviously natural sciences, although one could easily argue that much of modern mathematics could be placed just as easily in the same group as philosophy (e.g. one might find a course on logic in a philosophy department).

    8. Re:Well-hidden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...I also think that those that endlessly debate whether 'tertium non datur' should be accepted or not and similar things are just indulging in a pseudo-intellectual wankfest, not contributing anything useful."

      I don't know how many people are arguing about whether it should be "accepted" or not. Those mathematicians who reject it generally have very good reasons to do so, often having to do with applications to computation and knowledge representation. Intuitionism says in particular that not all predicates are necessarily Aristotelean: they are not determined before we investigate them. a \/ not(a) takes on the semantic meaning "there is a proof of a, or there is a proof of not(a)" in this theory. Clearly it is not necessarily the case that either is true at a fixed point in time.

      Both the law of the excluded middle and its negation are useful for doing different kinds of mathematics. People who argue about whether or not excluded middle should be accepted into mathematics (as a whole) nowadays are probably either ignorant of the issues or not even mathematicians.

    9. Re:Well-hidden? by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1

      Indeed - hey, here is a book I think you would really appreciate. It has LOTS of equations (which I don't think will bug you, hence my recommendation), but a theme and a thread that makes the book a wonderful, beautiful tour through many areas of mathematics:

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691099839/103-77 98844-8308625?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v =glance

      No stupid "recommend and gets points" or any such stuff - it took me several months to read through the whole book, and I then reread the whole book again, it is so delightful. Perhaps you will like it - it is hard to find excellent books written for "mathematical hobbyists" - people who love and enjoy math, but are not professional mathematicians but are nonetheless quite capable of doing an integral, fiddling with a bit of DE, etc.

      This is the kind of book I wish /. would review. Think there would be any luck in submitting this one for review? It's over a year old, and I've never attempted the submission process before...

    10. Re:Well-hidden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just wrong beyond redemption.

      It's not right... it's not even wrong.

      Mathematics has nothing at all to do models in real life.

    11. Re:Well-hidden? by gedhrel · · Score: 1

      Then let me try again.

      "only that in any axiomatic system complex enough to formulate its own self-consistency there are statements which can neither be proved true nor untrue"

      Right. Common example is the construction of a Goedel sentence for peano arithmetic, correct? And of the usual construction, you'll agree, we "know" the sentence to be true for the natural numbers - it just cannot be proved from the axioms. So, typically one might throw in the Goedel sentence and have a new axiom set, which will have its own goedel sentences, and so on. Alternaticely, one can throw in the negation of the goedel sentence as an axiom, and you wind up with an axiom set that's as consistent as it was before, just that (to use the term more accurately) the "real" natural numbers are no longer a model for.

      So the conclusion is that there's no (complete enumerable) axiomatisation of the natural numbers.

      However, the axioms for arithmetic we use are phenomenally successful: and we most certainly _do_ test them, all the time. Every time arithmetic makes a prediction about the things you count in the real world, it appears to stand up. In fact, no counterexamples have ever been discovered. The use of mathematics in every science is incredibly successful because of this fact.

      But we've not actually demonstrated that the behaviour of things we count really work like our axiomatisation predicts, for arbitrarily large numbers. We just keep testing it (every time you count anything) and so far it appears to stand up.

      _That_ is why mathematics is a science. _That_ is the testing, and it certainly does go on all the time. Ask any mathematician who knows what they're talking about, and they'll say "sure".

    12. Re:Well-hidden? by gedhrel · · Score: 1

      (PS. Lascowski is the chap to talk to about this.)

  35. NO NO NO!! by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

    Pi are round. Cake are square.

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    1. Re:NO NO NO!! by xs650 · · Score: 1

      It's "Pi are round, cornbread are square."

    2. Re:NO NO NO!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about cheesecake?

  36. A few clarifications... by Manchot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just so people don't get the wrong idea, it's not just quintic polynomials which can't be solved with one formula: it's all polynomials of degree five and higher. Also, "can't be solved" is something of a misnomer: there exist five solutions to a degree five polynomial, and they can be expressed either as infinite series or in terms of some non-standard functions. It's just that they can't be solved in terms of addition, multiplication, and exponentiation (i.e., using +, *, and radicals).

    1. Re:A few clarifications... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I found my new sig.

  37. oops I mean Work = FD by b1t+r0t · · Score: 1

    Work = FD
    F = MA
    Work = MAD

    --

    --
    "Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
    "Open source is evil." - Microsoft
    1. Re:oops I mean Work = FD by alexjohnc3 · · Score: 1

      I learned that in 8th grade physics. Funny, yet lacking sense, like Bill Gates. Good job.

  38. A little Gedankenexperiment by graybeard · · Score: 1
    A 22-year-old Norwegian named Niels Henrick Abel (1802-1829) and a 20-year-old Frenchman named Evariste Galois (1811-1832), discovered the impossibility of solving the quintic almost simultaneously in the 1820's.
    If Abel was 22 when he made his discovery, that means he did it in 1824. If Galois was 20 when he made his, that means he did it in 1831. What if Galois actually discovered something else, something so powerful it could transport him seven years into the past, something like, oh,
    1. Re:A little Gedankenexperiment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>A 22-year-old Norwegian named Niels Henrick Abel (1802-1829) and a 20-year-old
      >>Frenchman named Evariste Galois (1811-1832), discovered the impossibility of
      >>solving the quintic almost simultaneously in the 1820's.

      >If Abel was 22 when he made his discovery, that means he did it in 1824. If
      >Galois was 20 when he made his, that means he did it in 1831.

      This is easy to explain.

      Galois was 20 and a half.
      Abel was 22 and uh ten halves.

  39. Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by capitalj · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://pomonahistorical.org/12times.htm

    Britney Gallivan has solved the Paper Folding Problem. This well known challenge was to fold paper in half more than seven or eight times, using paper of any size or shape.

    The task was commonalty known to be impossible. Over the years the problem has been discussed by many people, including mathematicians and has been demonstrated to be impossible on TV.

    1. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by Tropaios · · Score: 1

      Holy Jumping Jesus, she's hot to boot!

    2. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by kulpinator · · Score: 1

      I thought demonstrating something impossible is ... impossible. After all, if it's impossible to do, what are you demonstrating? You can prove that something's impossible, but that's quite different.

      --
      Karma: Positive (mostly due to rash moderations)
    3. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by kulpinator · · Score: 1

      Suddenly I realize you were just pasting from the site. Still very unclear.

      --
      Karma: Positive (mostly due to rash moderations)
    4. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I for one welcome our new paper foldering teenage girl overlord.

    5. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by ShadeOfBlue · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but this is kind of silly. Sure, figuring out the exact equations to predict how wide/thin the paper must be is a handy piece of work, but being the first person to fold a piece of paper more than n times is just a matter of being the first person to try it on the largest/thinnest piece of paper they can find.

      I know when I first heard that challenge, I tried it on a regular piece of paper and couldn't do it, so I moved to a piece of newspaper, and voila, I had already beaten the impossible challenge. I think anybody with a sound grasp of basic physical phenomenon could tell you this challenge is only impossible for limited sizes/thickness of paper.

    6. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I thought demonstrating something impossible is ... impossible.

      According to the poster, it was not demonstrated, but only "commonalty known" to be impossible.

    7. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by gfreeman · · Score: 1

      MOD PARENT UP

      Damn you previous comments that thwart my modding powers!

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    8. Re:Equation For Folding Paper in Half 12 times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No joke!

  40. Re:A hard equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    x,y,z are generally assumed to be real numbers, but that didn't stop Fermat.

  41. MMMM. . . warm entry-ways. . . by Slicebo · · Score: 1

    "At last, less-experienced readers will find a warm entry-way. . ."

      Oh God, finally!

      ". . .into one of the most fascinating and advanced branches of mathematics"

    Doh!

  42. Group theory is used in chemistry by jhw3 · · Score: 1

    Concepts in group theory are actually used quite a bit in chemistry. Molecules can be assigned to groups based on their symmetry properties, and these groups can be used to predict the molecules' spectroscopic properties. This is extremely handy in inorganic chemistry when you want to determine (for example) how many different infrared absorptions a metal complex should have.

    The lingo of group theory has firmly entered chemistry as well. Even organic chemists will routinely talk about molecules with a C2 axis, systems with D3h symmetry, etc.

    The book to read on this topic is "Symmetry and Spectroscopy" by Harris and Bertolucci. It's published by Dover, so it's cheap.

  43. The answer is trivial by abb3w · · Score: 4, Funny
    What happens if you ferment a bunch of Abelian grapes in a Klein bottle?

    You'll make an Algebraic Topologist whine.

    --
    //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    1. Re:The answer is trivial by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Especially with a punchline like that.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
  44. But could they solve.. by Unski · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ..the equations of love?

    "It is only through the mysterious equations of love that any logic can be found."

    1. Re:But could they solve.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's been a while since I have looked at "Venus on the Half-Shell", but I think Bruga's poem goes something like this:

      "The Anathematic Mathematics of Love"

      How do I love Thee?
      Let me figure the ways said Liz.

      But mental additions
      Subtracted from Bob Browning's emissions
      Divided the needed vigor to frig her.

      Here's what he said to his Portugese
      In order to part her deadened knees:

      Accounting's not the thing that counts
      A plus, a minus you can shove,
      Oh woman below and man above
      Tis this inspires the mounts and founts.

      To Hell with Euclid's beauty bare
      Liz get your ass out of that chair!

      --Philip Jose Farmer writing as Kilgore Trout

    2. Re:But could they solve.. by jd_esguerra · · Score: 1

      ..the equations of love?

      XXX = (8pi) + 69*sin(KY*t) ?

  45. ANSWER by Back+Slider+1969 · · Score: 0

    ex/f What's the big deal?

    1. Re:ANSWER by Back+Slider+1969 · · Score: 0

      besides that /. won't take extended ascii sq. rt of ex/f cubed

  46. So everything too can be integrated .. by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1

    .. just integrate the terms of the Taylor series ;-)

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
  47. Here's a riddle for you by JavaRob · · Score: 1

    "There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those that don't."

    Fortunately this is no longer the most popular /. sig... but it keeps coming back.

    Here's a less-known, related riddle, though:

    If only you and dead people understand hex, how many people understand hex?

    1. Re:Here's a riddle for you by bfizzle · · Score: 1

      DEAE?

  48. Answer: by JavaRob · · Score: 1

    There's the simple numeric answer, of course... I prefer: "Well, if I taught just one more person, we'd all be deaf."

    Heh, heh.

  49. I'd love to be able to understand higher math.. by slapout · · Score: 1

    ..but I need some inbetween math. I know algrebra and geometry. Can anyone recommend any websites for learning the maths about those?

    --
    Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    1. Re:I'd love to be able to understand higher math.. by noblethrasher · · Score: 1

      Can't think of any good websites right off hand, but I'd say start studying (naive) set theory, it'll inform pretty much any mathematics you touch after that. Algebra, for instance, is 'merely' the study of sets and their operations (functions/mappings/transformations among/between sets).

    2. Re:I'd love to be able to understand higher math.. by noblethrasher · · Score: 1

      Just to further clarify, highschool/college algebra is the study of the operations of addition and multiplication* on the set of real numbers. There are other operations, of course, such as substraction, division and exponentiation but they're really just the inverses or repetition of the other operations. Eventually you'll discover that operations and functions are the same thing (formally).

    3. Re:I'd love to be able to understand higher math.. by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 1

      Algrebra and geometry are quite ambiguous terms.

      But, to answer you're question, we'd have to have a somewhat involved conversation to figure out what you know and what you don't so as to recommend books (or give you stuff to look up).

      The set theory recommendation is good as it has no pre-requisites beyond mathematical maturity. Number theory is another example of this (and fun!). I have Underwood Dudley's Elementary Number Theory. But that is a book that is difficult to learn just on your own.

      You should probably go to your local university and have a sit down with the math chair. Definitely make an appointment as they are notoriously difficult to find.

      But, for now I'll assume that you're ready to enter first year.

      Calculus - Stewart seems to be the standard text at most universities. Finish that and you'll have more that two years of calc. It's expensive, so look for the universities used book store or the library. Or find another one as there are tonnes of beginning calc books out there. I like Calculus a Complete Course by Robert Adams. Most don't.

      Discrete math should have its own little $20 department made book (you should ask about those, they probably have them for a few classes).

      Graph theory is something that is accessable to most as well.

      That should get you going though :)

      Have fun :)

  50. What I'd Like To Know Is... by Squiffy · · Score: 1

    Is there a place where all the groups that have names are listed, in a sort of catalog form? I keep finding references to various groups like SU(3) and the alternating group A5, and the names themselves give no sense of the structure of the given group. Once and for all I'd like to be able to read brief definitions of all of these named groups so when I see one I know what the heck they're talking about.

    Furthermore, is there a catalog of various named algebraic objects, like groups, subgroups, monoids, rings, fields, etc.?

    1. Re:What I'd Like To Know Is... by trilliwig · · Score: 1
  51. closed form by snarkh · · Score: 1
    Yes, closed forms is whatever we give a name to.


    The problem of solving polynomial equations was not to find a closed form solution, but to find an expression in terms of a finite combination of radicals (roots).


    It turns out that even for cubics there is no "closed form" solution unless you allow taking radicals of complex numbers.

  52. Physics in general is also quite hard to dumb down by plankrwf · · Score: 1

    Sorry, don't buy it. Sure, telling people what a Hilbert Space is, is quite hard. But try explaining to a layperson (is that a politically correct term ;-)) that an electron is actually, well, you know, like a wave and a particle at the same time isn't that easy either. Wasn't it Bohr himself who said that either you didn't understand quantum mechanics, or you were insane?
    Or try to explain to a layperson how quarks react...
    Even special relativity, mathematically a quite simple theory, is hard to explain to a layperson... So it all depends on what you want to achieve. If all you need to do is scratch the surface, well, for a layperson you could use something like the jpeg file format: explaining that a picture can be represented in a series of 'functions' etc...
    Or compare it do a euclidian space...

  53. Duel Staged; death by suicide more likely by Intelligent+Design · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here's something that might deserve a closer look: The duel and the events leading to it are blurred by time and the phantasies of novelists and what's worse biographers. We can rule out or at least it is highly improbable that the duel was a plot of the royalists to murder him. Though this version is a favorite legend lingering in many biographies. Most probably it was Galois himself who incited this interpretation. He wanted himself to appear as a victim of the government, which should enrage the masses to revolt. He dropped remarks pointing in this direction: At a meeting of the Friends of the People and in his last letters. The most likely reason is: He was weary of life, because of his unhappy love affair, his fruitless efforts for gaining recognition for his mathematical work, his financial and work situation and he felt finished up a blind alley in politics as well. So his duel was like a staged suicide. It is still not clear who the other dueller a supposed political friend was. One thing is clear, though it kills a favorite legend: He didn't lay down his mathematical theory in the night befor the duel. He pointed out the cornerstones of his scientific life in a long letter to his friend Chevalier, so that everything might be properly evaluated and not be lost.

  54. Hilbert Spaces for the Layman by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1
    I'll assume you have an idea of what we mean by 1D, 2D and 3D spaces. An n-dimensional space is one where you can have up to n directions that are at right angles to each other. Well a Hilbert Space is a kind of infinite dimensional space. This is a space where no matter how many directions you have already chosen, you can find another direction that is at right angles to all of them.

    Now think about pairs of points in space. We can talk about there being a distance between them. Well the same is true in some infinite dimensional spaces, there's an idea of the distance between two points. And if you have an idea of distance you have an idea of how close a pair of points is.

    Now think about a sequence of numbers like 1,1/2,1/4,1/8,... halving each time. Notice that successive pairs of points are getting closer and closer all the time. The distance between 1/2 and 1/4, say, is half that between 1 and 1/2. Now the fact that they appear to be getting closer and closer to their neighbors suggests that actually the sequence is getting closer and closer to something. In the example just given you can see that the sequence is getting closer and closer to zero. It never reaches zero but it does get as close as you choose. But there are spaces where it's possible for successive pairs to get closer and closer without there being an actual limit that they approach. They're kinda annoying and it's often useful to restrict your attention to cases where whenever you appear to be approaching a limit there really is a definite limit. Infinite dimensional spaces like this are known as 'Hilbert Spaces'.

    Hilbert spaces are very useful in modern physics where the state of a physical system in quantum mechanics is often infinite dimensional. But they also have many applications outside of physics.

    I could give some examples but I have a day job. And yes, I know I haven't said what I mean by 'space', but this a layman's introduction. Next week I'll give an introduction to functional analysis on Sobolev spaces for the layman...

    1. Re:Hilbert Spaces for the Layman by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

      Hilbert spaces don't have to be infinite-dimensional.

      Outside of that... yes, that is a pretty good description of Hilbert spaces, but you'd probably lose most non-mathematicians I know by the time you said that there could be more than three dimensions.

      --
      quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    2. Re:Hilbert Spaces for the Layman by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1

      Ooops. Slight mistake. But finite-dimensional Hilbert spaces are so boring. I might have lost most people but I'm sure your average pop science/science fiction reader could just about bend their mind towards the concept of always being able to travel orthogonally to any given bunch of directions.

    3. Re:Hilbert Spaces for the Layman by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

      Oh, that certainly - I was more talking about people like my parents. I've often tried to explain fascinating (to me) mathematical concepts to them in my university days, and they always were interested, too; I think they even managed to understand *why* these things were fascinating when I talked about them, but afterwards, they wouldn't have been able to explain things, not even without caring about the details.

      --
      quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    4. Re:Hilbert Spaces for the Layman by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1
      but afterwards, they wouldn't have been able to explain things
      I never got this short-term understanding thing. Wy wife is the same - she'll seem to understand a deep idea for a while and then lose it. If I don't understand an idea I don't understand it. If I understand an idea it I grok it and it becomes part of me for life. I don't really understand the idea of being able to understand something one moment and not the next. (Of course I'm talking concepts here - I forget details all the time.)
    5. Re:Hilbert Spaces for the Layman by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

      I've experienced it a few times, myself - when someone tells me something about a field where I have no experience or prior knowledge whatsoever and that I'm completely unfamiliar with, something that actually does require a bit of thought to understand, then I usually am able to follow them when it's explained, but I can't reproduce it afterwards - it's just too much information at once, and I'm not able to store away all the information when I have to focus on understanding how it all fits together, it seems.

      It's something that goes away when I learn some of the basic concepts in a certain field, though.

      --
      quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
  55. Pretty graphs by trilliwig · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wolfram Research has some interesting explication on historical methods of solving the quintic: http://library.wolfram.com/examples/quintic/main.h tml

  56. Re:Physics in general is also quite hard to dumb d by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

    My point was that you don't have to explain all the details in physics to give a meaningful and useful approximation of what things are like. You might not be able to explain all the details, but it often will be enough - if you are just interested in learning what water molecules look like (for example) and why they can form like this, you don't have to know about dual wave/particle nature of elementary particles. Sure, it'll become important at some later point - you can't really understand aromatic structures in chemistry without this, for example -, but for a layperson, it's good enough.

    The same thing is not true in mathematics: no matter how simple a problem looks (that is, no matter how easy it is to formulate), the solution can be arbitrarily complex. Why can there be no natural numbers a, b, c (greater than 0) such that a^3 + b^3 = c^3? It's a question that everyone can understand, yet the solution is too complex even for most mathematicians to understand (I have a background in mathematics, and I tried to read it once; I had to stop after less than two pages or so).

    Another problem with mathematics is that most people don't know the basic building blocks of mathematics. I think most reasonably intelligent people have a general idea of what molecules are, for example, but if you start talking about functions, or spaces, or groups, you'll immediately lose most people.

    --
    quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
  57. tv addict speaking by felaras · · Score: 1

    I bet Charlie Eppes could solve it in no time!

  58. Look ma, no equations! by Leadhyena · · Score: 2, Insightful
    A group is a category over one object with invertible morphisms. Pbbbbbbbbbt.

    Seriously though... every logical statement is technically an "equation". Even the definition of "definition" (if you allow me to quine for a bit) is a substitution of a long sequence of symbols with a smaller one, and substitutions are what equations are all about. I would argue with the submitter that Group Theory is not the simplest sort of abstraction (Category Theory is) but his point is still there: numbers and equations in their connotative or layman's sense are not involved.

  59. My advice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Group therapy, for all the geeks who get off on numbers.

  60. Center-fold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    she is;)

  61. a modest semi-classic? by Anon.Pedant · · Score: 1

    A modest semi-classic? With a recomendation like that I think I'll put it at the top of my reading list.

  62. Bahhh... It's easy to explain multiple dimensions by technoextreme · · Score: 1
    Outside of that... yes, that is a pretty good description of Hilbert spaces, but you'd probably lose most non-mathematicians I know by the time you said that there could be more than three dimensions.
    Actually, you probably wouldn't. I always understood that you can mathematically describe as many dimensions as you could but it doesn't mean they actually exisist in the real world. Even understanding the regular definition to dimensions isn't that hard to understand. Yes, I find it odd why I need to know the definition of a dimension when I will never work with more than three. Some of the stuff is useful though such as finding the basis of subspace.
    --
    Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
  63. Re:Bahhh... It's easy to explain multiple dimensio by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

    What is the regular definition of "dimension", though? The dimension of a vector space at least is not the most basic concept you'll come across in that field - it's not immediately clear why you couldn't have two bases with different cardinality, for example. Or, for that matter, it's not immediately clear why there has to be a basis at all (and in fact, you have to use the axiom of choice to prove that this is always the case; if you don't accept it, there are vector spaces without a basis and thus without a defined number of dimensions, strange as that may sound).

    And the Hausdorff dimension isn't really better, either.

    Of course, all these things are basic (or at least easily grokkable) for a mathematician, but for laypeople, they may not really mean anything. I remember giving a talk about fractals and the fractal dimension in my math class at school once, in the last year, but most people couldn't even accept the fact that a dimension might not be an integer. For them, a dimension was not something you could define, but rather something that existed, in the sense that we have three (or four, if you count time) dimensions we live in, and nothing else. I doubt they would've been comfortable with hearing about things like infinite-dimensional vectorspaces, either. And that *was* in a math class.

    --
    quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
  64. That wasn't quite right by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1
    It's just that they can't be solved in terms of addition, multiplication, and exponentiation (i.e., using +, *, and radicals).
    Not really. Here's a formula that gives a solution to x^5-a=0 : x=a^(1/5). You can even write down a formula in a,b,c,d,e, of this form, for all solutions to ax^5+bx^4+cx^3+dx^2+ex=0.

    The point is that there is no universal formula of the required form for all quintics and above.

    1. Re:That wasn't quite right by Manchot · · Score: 1

      Just so people don't get the wrong idea, it's not just quintic polynomials which can't be solved with one formula: it's all polynomials of degree five and higher.

      I stand by my statement.

  65. That story is most certainly an urban legend by Schwarzchild · · Score: 1

    See here for more details! It's unfortunate that the urban legend made it into one of my group theory textbooks.

    --

    "sweet dreams are made of this..."

  66. Re:Bahhh... It's easy to explain multiple dimensio by technoextreme · · Score: 1
    What is the regular definition of "dimension", though? The dimension of a vector space at least is not the most basic concept you'll come across in that field - it's not immediately clear why you couldn't have two bases with different cardinality, for example.

    You know. You lost me at cardinality. Then I looked up the definition and realized that the cardinality is dimension. So Im guessing you are trying to say that it's not entirely clear that the dimension of a subspace can be given of the minimum number of vectors that span said subspace. Please tell me if I have butchered the definition because honestly I was just taught this yesterday. Also, I believe my teacher never showed us the proof.
    --
    Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
  67. Reference Book by lukOh · · Score: 1

    Handbook of Mathematics and Computational Science
    by John W Harris and Horst Stocker
    ISBN:0387947469

    if anyone needs a complete reference to any formula, theoreme, theories and details in an extremely syntesys+example way, to get up to Galois' groups for quintic equations and much, much more

    by far the most fascinating non-literature piece of paper I've ever had in my hands

  68. Re:Bahhh... It's easy to explain multiple dimensio by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

    The dimension of a subspace is the minimum number of vectors that span said subspace, yes (at least, that's one definition of several equivalent ones), but you have to show that that minimum is actually well-defined - for example, there is no a priori reason why I couldn't find one set of four linearly independent vectors that span said subspace and another set of five, where neither set spans the entire subspace anymore if I remove one of the vectors. In this example, it would not be clear whether the dimension of the subspace should be four or five.

    This really cannot happen, but it's important to realise that you need to prove this, as it doesn't immediately follow from the definition - you need Steinitz for this (or you could use the more general ultrafilter lemma, too). :)

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    quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
  69. The Mathematician Who Doesn't Get Credit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Paolo Ruffini made extremely significant contributions to this problem before Abel was even born, only to be largely ignored by the leading mathematicians of the day:

    http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathem aticians/Ruffini.html

  70. First Prime Factorization Post by TheStonepedo · · Score: 1

    0743258307=3*11*79*285101

    --
    I'll be your candy shop of infinite deliciousity if you'll be my discotheque of endless rump-shaking.
  71. WTF is sumamry talking about? by woolio · · Score: 1
    abstract algebra, which, IMHO, is one of the most fascinating branches of mathematics and, oddly, seems normally to be kept well-hidden from the eyes of non-math or non-physics majors.


    WTF is this crap? Do Physicists really use abstract algebra? I question the validity of the summary's statement... The person who wrote the summary seems to have a naieve view that physics people are the only ones who really use the "hard" maths... (And they would be sorely mistaken).

    For example, abstract algebra is extremely important in many areas of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. (Although both majors have sub-areas cover a fairly extreme range from "using no math at all", to the almost unspeakable branches...)
    1. Re:WTF is sumamry talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do Physicists really use abstract algebra?

      Yes, mostly in group theory, although mathematical physics like string theory is probably the heaviest user of abstract algebra in all the sciences/engineering.

      For example, abstract algebra is extremely important in many areas of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science.

      I know of a few applications of it to computer science, can't think of much in the way of EE. What examples are you thinking of? Is ring theory, group theory, etc. really that widely used in extremely important areas of EE??
    2. Re:WTF is sumamry talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Physicists use group theory, and (as a natural consequence of Lie group theory), the theory of algebras. A few play with categories and their odder generalizations, but they tend to be in math departments. Ring (aside from algebras) and field theory have essentially zero use in physics except as they are implicit in working with numbers at all.

      Which is why my abstract algebra class was somewhat of a waste of time from my point of view, since what I really needed was the theory of differentiable groups and Lie algebras, and what I got was fields...

  72. Re:Physics in general is also quite hard to dumb d by plankrwf · · Score: 1

    Still not convinced. True, in physics there are many things which the layperson can see for him/herself.
    So you can tell something about it. But the same is true about mathematics.
    You argue yourself that the mathematical problem mentioned above is easy to understand... The proof is not.
    But you could easily give people an idea by substituting '1' and '2' for a and b; giving 1^3 + 2^3 = c^3 where c is an irrational number...
    And that there are many more irrational numbers than natural numbers, and that it is in fact quite special that a^2 + b^2 = c^2 has so many solutions for a,b,c natural numbers... You could explain something about the number of degrees of freedom. And then conjecture something about solutions to a^3+b^3+c^3=d^3...
    Proving IS something quite different... In physics, it is quite diffucult to PROVE to a layperson why 'general relativity theory' and 'quantum theory' is so difficult to combine. Or tell people about why dissipation and quantum mechanics are hard to combine, at least in a non-phenominological description. (It is possible, I know, my own PhD thesis is about that combination; it is just not straightforward).
    About your 'building blocks' of physics: molecules are more like building blocks of chemistry than of physics. Physics is on every scale: from supernovae to quarks inside protons inside atoms inside molecules. No way a layperson would have a general idea about those.
    In mathematics, natural numbers is one of the big areas of study. So in a sense natural numbers are part of the building blocks of mathematics...
    Do you really believe natural numbers are difficult to understand for laypersons ;-)
    If I haven't convinced you now, I'll probably not convince you in a further post. So no more postings from me on this subject ;-)

  73. Maths are hard by Arioch_BDV · · Score: 1

    ...and they are divided into three classes: those who learnt to count to three, and those who are not.

  74. The Equation That Couldn't Be Solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "..."Physics is to math what sex is to masturbation."..

    Richard Faynman

  75. It is easy by sxmjmae · · Score: 1

    The answer is: 42
    It is not unsolvable, it would just take a super computer just over 7 millions years to compute.

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    My Sig indicates the end of the comment I posted.