Slashdot Mirror
BART Outfitted With Wireless
wyldeone writes "The San Fransico Chronicle reports that the BART subway system has been completely outfitted with cells to allow cellphone usage everywhere on the line. The network has been paid for entirely by Nextel, who leased out the lines to the other carriers." From the article: "Rae said BART and the wireless companies know some riders will try to make calls over the din as BART roars and screeches through tunnels. But most of the business, he said, will be from people using wireless devices to read and send e-mail or browse the Internet. 'You could use your Blackberry to take care of all your e-mail on your way to work,' he said. 'But the trains are really too noisy (underground) to have an intelligent conversation.'"
I thought Lisa would have been the tech buff.
This is a necessity. It is always a problem with BART. Now the best transportation system in America will also be wireless. All they need now is to add Wi-Fi, which is also sorely needed.
Great webhosting, cheap rates! Enter code SlashdotDiscount
These trains are really so loud that you can't have a conversation in them? I'd go nuts riding something that noisy to work everyday. At least you wouldn't have to worry about falling asleep and missing your stop, I guess.
What percentage of cell phone conversations are intelligent in any case?
--
The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
At first I was like "wait, what? Bart Simpson fitted with wireless? Is this some new commericial tie-in gadget?"
read the bunni comic
Are you saying that Cingular is providing service using Verizon wireless?
Curious, is all.
'But the trains are really too noisy (underground) to have an intelligent conversation.'
Uhh.... what makes him think that most of the people talking on cell phones are having an intelligent conversation?
It's nice that Nextel leases out their lines to other carriers. Verizon is the only carrier to have built towers for the underground portions of the Washington D.C. Metro system, and they don't share at all with anyone.
But the trains are really too noisy (underground) to have an intelligent conversation.
Most of the conversations probably won't be intelligent, but you know plenty idiots will try anyway.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
Delcan NET is now tracking traffic through the tunnels...
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I think the AC means "cellular" service, not cingular. The service is provided by Verizon.
Like the one: "Yes, we're all VERY interested in what you're having for dinner."
After rtfa, I've concluded that this submission is grossly mis-titled.
Yeah, it's nice that you'll be able to use a blackberry or mobile phone to make calls, etc., while riding a BART train, but who calls that "wireless"?
The term "wireless" is usually related to 802.11, wifi, or "wireless networking", not the ability to make cell phone calls. But I guess that's incorrect, and we can now state that most of the planet is already "outfitted with wireless".
It's really too bad people have stopped thinking about the words they use and instead choose to parrot phrases they've misheard elsewhere. Oh well. I guess that's why they're working for the subway system.
Or perhaps the passengers are too dumb?
A man's reach must exceed his grasp, or what's an erection for?
Woohoo! Simpsons wherever I go!!
"You can justify anything by putting it in quotes, adding a famous name and making it a sig" - Albert Einstein
"But most of the business, he said, will be from people using wireless devices to read and send e-mail or browse the Internet."
Sounds peaceful and relaxing. Also sounds like BS. I think that's something they tell people who are afraid of the subway cars becoming a place where everyone is yelling, "What? WHAT??" into their phones.
I like riding the subway in NYC because more often than not, no one says a damn word.
> "The network has been payed for entirely by Nextel"
I'm pretty sure you meant "paid for"
All they need now is...
What about espresso bars, falafel stands, and multilingual whores?
I love seeing stories like this, anything that increases the reach of our communications networks frees knowledge and information that much more.
Although I am always aware of the privacy concerns raised by new infrastructures I am somewhat of the mind that if you aren't doing anything wrong or anything that you are ashamed of there is no reason to fear others knowing about it. Perhaps one day the world will be open-minded enough not to pass negative judgment on those things that people do during their private time.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
Wouldn't it be a better technology upgrade to reduce the noise on BART while traveling underground so people can talk to each other? Of course, you would have to ban cell phones since it's so damn annoying as some people don't care if everyone knows about their sex life play-by-play.
Maybe Verizon doesn't need to share, and Nextel does?
That is, maybe Verizon's share of the underground travellers' cell phone business is high enough that they can make back their investment from revenue from same, while Nextel has to lease the access out to make money, because their own subscribers aren't numerous enough underground to make good use of the bandwidth.
In short, I kinda 'spect both companies made the decision on cold-blooded business grounds, and not because either has a soft spot in their hearts for their competitors.
When I was in Paris [last november] I was making calls in the subway without excessive noise or trouble.
:-)
I'm glad they're getting wireless though. So I'm not complaining, just comparing
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
My last refuge from cell phone users was the subway.
They should roll it out with signs showing people telling noisy chatterers to shut up.
--
make install -not war
BART Outfitted With Wireless
Like this?
The ______ Agenda
Welcome to the 21st century!
We switched cell carriers because of it!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
But the trains are really too noisy (underground) to have an intelligent conversation.
Maybe that will make noise cancelling headsets more popular
The SF Bay Area is not built like the New York or Boston metropolitan areas, so we can't have the same sort of system, but BART is mediocre at best. I don't know whom they bribed to win the transportation award the other year, but that doesn't change anything. In addition to parent's gripes, I'll add inflexible pricing: there is something like a 2% senior discount, children under three weeks of age are free, and everybody else pays full price. Okay, maybe that's exaggerating. But there are no passes available at all for "volume" riders, like practically all other transportation systems have. You can buy a $48 ticket (i.e., good for $48 worth of rides--pricing is station-to-station) for $45 or something like that, but that's about it.
Telltale Games: Bone, Sam and Max
They want cellphone coverage to set off their bombs (well the ranks of suicide bombers are always decreasing)..
Best is really a subjective term. I recently moved from SF to Chicago, after having lived in SF for close to 20 years. First, in those 20 years I'd seen all sorts of changes done to BART, some for the better, some for the worse.
It's nice that BART finally goes to SFO, after such a long battle with San Mateo.
But that's really the only tangible improvement I've seen from them in a LONG time.
On the other hand, I'm now experiencing the "El" in Chicago. They run 24/7. And to a greater land area. To both airports. Directly.
Now, I don't work the evening shift, but I can completely get by without a car here. I couldn't do that in SF. Ever.
As an aside, I wonder what kind of restrictions were placed in the contract in terms of sharing with other carriers. From what I hear, VZW has the cell towers in the DC metro, and doesn't allow other carriers to use them (maybe selfishness; maybe gross institutional incompetence on VZW's part - it's hard to tell with them). If it's a public place like a subway, the people who build the network should be required to lease out to other people; it's in the public interest that everyone get to play, not just the people with service from the carrier that gets the contract. Of course, if we'd just used a single wireless standard like in Europe, then the point would be moot.
As a current NYC resident (formerly from the SF bay area)... There was talk a while back of implementing this on the NYC subways. For me, the train systems are probably the only public place I can go to were i won't have to listen to people talking loudly and endlessly on their cell phones. Now I'll get it on both coasts.
bah...
Shameless plug for my photos on Flickr
Having an intelligent conversation is hard enough while NOT on a noisy train. Imagine trying to have a conversation that is both intelligent AND intelligible while on the thing!
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
"Wireless" = "without wires." Which part of the word don't you understand?
It's back to correcting the correctors for me. Thus, I'm pretty sure you meant to put a period on the end of that statement.
That is, you meant: "I'm pretty sure you meant "paid for"."
I have a daily commute on BART. I can say, without a doubt, the tunnel between Orinda and Rockridge is my most savored moment of the ride. I seriously hate people yammering on their phone about crap. I swear, I had some girl start getting into some dirty talk on the phone a few weeks back. I really need to remember to charge the iPod so I don't have to hear these people.
Fuck Lunix
i read the heading as BART getting WiFi. i guess the term wireless is starting to become vague.
If you visit the companies websites, you can easily get subscriber data from the investor reports.
Verizon is the industry leader, with 49.3 million subscribers.
Nextel used to be number five or so, with 16.2 million subscribers, but they just merged this fall with number three Sprint, and the combined company (known as Sprint) now has 45.6 million subscribers.
I guess the OP meant cellular mobile not Wireless, right?
The period should go inside the quotes. When you were correcting the correction of the corrector, I'm pretty sure you meant to type, "That is, you meant: `I'm pretty sure you meant "paid for."'"
I used to live in the SF area and commute on BART. I always dreaded the moments when the train would come out of the tunnel because half of the passengers would whip our their cell phones and start desperately dialing. "Hey, it's me ... I'm at West Oakland ... be home in 20 miniutes ... OK, bye!" Then, 10 MINUTES LATER, we'd come out of the tunnel again and they'd do the SAME DAMN THING. "Hey, it's me ... I'm at Macarthur ... be home in 10 minutes ... OK, bye!" I hated them all so much. So glad not to have to be there when they can do the inane blow-by-blow of their commute IN the tunnels too.
jf
Hong Kong's subway system and virtually all tunnels have been wired for cell phones for quite a while now. To be honest, it's really nice when you need to meet up with someone and you have to switch directions in route. Being connected while you're moving makes life that much easier.
n s_network_coverage
Here's more info on the coverage on the MTR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR#Telecommunicatio
Only about 20% of Chicago's transit system is underground, so it's not a big deal. I just happen to enjoy the sounds of the rails and nothing else.
-Rob
Biblical fiscal responsibility
Didn't you notice? People are never interested in talking to people they're with. For no apparent reason, conversations are always more interesting if the other person is on the other end of a cell phone link from you.
Ever seen a group of teenagers walking the mall or walking home from school? One's always talking on the phone.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I wonder if they'll ban military recruiters from using it ;-)
First, BART is a Rapid Transit system, not a subway system. Second, the wireless system is not operational yet as of yesterday!!! Third, I want WiFi! Unlike older commuter systems (NYC MTA or CTA) many commuters (like myself) use laptops or would use laptops and would benefit from having WiFi!
-Palal
Delcan NET is now tracking traffic through the tunnels....
No, that's German for "The Bart, The"
http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsi d=62798
The Delhi Metro is being built keeping cell-phone coverage in mind.
I don't know what BART the guy was riding who said you can fall asleep on them. I ride BART all the time, and it is so loud, you have to stop and wonder why something hasn't been done about it, and how it was ever released to the public in that state. I've had times where I was trying to pick up on some girl, and even after getting her to pull her little white (iPod) earpieces out, it was futile..because it's just so unbelievably loud. It's this high pitched grinding screech. Uhh..I just wince thinking about it.
All we need is to make a subway system a Giant MICROWAVE!!
I don't know about you, but I've never overheard an intelligent conversation on the train anyway...
Now, cellphones underground are nice, but really, especially with the speed at which the trains travel, one does not spend too much time underground. Besides, the trains are far too loud underground. Sometimes, it's not even possible to have a conversation with the person next to you!
It's not "San Fransico". The name of the city is spelled "San Francisco."
They spell the city like the router company, which makes the spelling easy to remember.
That's true only for non-programmer Americans. Just like measurements are in feet only for non-scientific Americans. Those are two things the USA should fix eventually.
On that note, is it possible currently to link a bunch of AP together and so as you jump from one AP to another as you move around, it doesn't actually disconnect and seemlessly goes through?
HD Trailers
Punctuation swapping should apply to programmers too!
char *s="Hello World;"
How hard would it be to make a compiler accept this and refuse the unswapped version?
In Brussels, you can use your phone on almost all the lines, for ages...
Seoul's subway system has complete cell coverage in all train tunnels, stations, pedestrian transfer tunnels etc. You can literally get on at steet level and exit anywhere else in the city at street level and maintain a call.
Since satellite-to-phone broadcast TV (DMB) launched last year they've added underground repeaters for that too. When WiBro launches here next year, I expect we'll be able to use wireless broadband internet system-wide too.
It's a bit unclear to me whether this type of wireless service is meant for cell phones or WLAN (802.11x) devices?
Hahahaha yeah I caught that one the other day, yet the reception down there is crystal clear. Hmmmm...
"As the intrepid kobold companion continues his journey, he begins to wonder... if priests raises dead, why anybody die?
The city train system in the town that I go to University in (Bielefeld, Germany) has a 5 line city train system, run by Mobiel (www.mobiel.de), a part of which is underground. They've had cellular service in the underground stations for quite some time I believe. The trains are quiet enough to talk without a problem, however the costs of talking on the phone leave most people just sending texts anyways.
Until about a month ago, I rode BART each day as part of my daily commute. I agree with Chronicle -- the underground trains are far too noisy to hold an intelligent phone conversation for any length of time. When I commuted on BART, I spent my 45 minutes reading and writing emails. 802.11 connectivity might have been useful then, but cell phone calls would have been utterly pointless.
As I see it, San Francisco's mayor, Gavin Newsom, loves to talk about how he's going to 'unwire' the city with 802.11 hotspots but, at least in the year I lived there, I saw zero progress from my home just three blocks off of Union Square. 802.11 on BART would be a great first step in the cities wireless plan, but I wouldn't hold my breath just yet. It was always tough to find free Internet in San Francisco and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Plain geography and an astonishing number of already-installed 802.11 APs is going to dictate an expensive wireless rollout in the city. As far as I can see, neither the city government nor anyone else seems willing to pony-up the kind of money it will take to blanket the city with 802.11.
Just to make absolutely sure people don't try making calls, maybe they should just block all voice service. Checking email is ok, telling other people you're on the train is not.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I used my cell phone in the Berlin subway already in 1996. What are they going to invent next in US? Waste water treatment?
Well, even in Antarctica they have wireless, or in the middle of the Amazone Rainforest they also have wireless!!
:-)
The problem is.. most people don't really want to have something that isn't there, but something that is. Cellular coverage for example
I find it ironic that they happily outfit BART with digital equipment, while sitting down proves to be a life threatening exercise, because the seats have not been cleaned since they were first fitted in the trains a couple of decades ago. When I sat down, it felt exacly like sitting on wet grass. Damp, primordial soup creeping up my back. Every time. But you can check your email. Almost everywhere now. Gee.
I never understood that. They put repeaters in to handle mobile phones in car tunnels here, but not VHF broadcast radio. Especially strange since you're not supposed to be on the phone while driving.
Here in Stockholm, Sweden the subway has had "wireless" for ages. I though that was the norm? Is the news that BART is last to have it?
http://www.snpp.com/episodes/8F11.html
k e l l a r
I have been using GSM mobilephones in the subways since 1998, I don't see what's so new about this there is 500km of rails in stockholm and it is all covered. And since 2003 they have been woking on WLAN coverage in the subway system, but I don't think it will ever be public, rather it's going to be just for ticket control. They might have canned the idea since it really has some complications, for the ticket controllers.
This is posted on a 32KB/s connection underground (3G has only worked for 6 months or so)...
Wow, now SF has subway cell phone coverage? Is that the same service I have seen for years in cities like Berlin (Germany) or Stockholm (Sweden)..?
Next /. article: Public sevage system established in Springfield, Ohio?
BeiJing has had this service for years. My girlfriend can't remember how long ago they put it in, but at least 3 years ago...
Max.
I haven't been in the Bay Area since about 1992, but as far as I can recall, the BART was incredibly quiet, I suppose, in comparison to the NY subway system. It took a little research, but back when the system was new, the interior noise level was 60 db. Later, changes were made to reduce the noise levels to 40-45 db (better sound insulation, rubberized wheels on the cars, etc). It doesn't seem any more noisy than talking on a phone on a busy city street.
I guess it depends on the model of phone, and whether you're using a hands free microphone.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
in a time and place where cell phones have become affixed to our ears, the subway system once provided a welcome relief from the people who talk to thin air. practically anywhere else you go (out to dinner, at the movies, walking down the street), the everpresent hoards of obnoxious cell-phoners have taken over. it might be argued the subway has become one of the few urban areas where people are actually likely to talk to the people around them or to take in their surroundings. in small doses technological advances in connectivity, which allow us to talk with people when we want and where we want, are generally a good thing. particularly in emergency situations, and in light of recent terrorist activity on subways, subway cell phones may bring greater safety. however, when cell phones, instant messengers, and ultra high speed internet start to dominate our lifestyles, the value of a face-to-face conversation is largely ignored.
(( (CRAYON) )) >
The Stockholm subway has had this for years. :-)
I was assigned as a project manager to help design and implement the system. Nextel is indeed paying for the installation, starting in the downtown SF stations and then moving on to the underground system in Oakland. Basically, a radiax antenna cable is being strung through the tunnel areas, which has capacity to service multiple carriers and frequencies. As stated elsewhere, the goal is to have end-to-end coverage along the entire BART system. The other carriers will piggyback on Nextel's installation if they so choose. (As of a year ago, when I left the project, only Cingular had joined in.) Nextel gets some breaks from BART for being first-mover. One of the perks of this job was spending lots of time in the BART tunnels between 2 and 4 am. It's a wonderful experience for anyone who gets the opportunity.
BART, let me debunk you. Bay area -Well it doesn't get to San Jose, or Milipedas, It Bairly touches San Francisco. Rapid-Sure if you call 30 minut wait for the train to Oakland Rapid. It frequenly takes it 45 minuts during commute hours to go from the powel street station to the next stop. Hardly rapid. Transit System. Well that's debatable. For me anyway that implies some sort of interconectivity. It doesn't have that. You can't go from muni to bart, or bart to muni- as far as I know it doesn't let you transfer to any other part of the system at all. Then their is the cost of tickets-high is a understatement, an average of 3 dollers per a stop. No bart needs to focus more on basics before attempting to handle even terrible sub-terannian cell phone coverage. Any Urban or City Manager that says other wise has their head up their but.
It is not the case that you go from the highly bay area safe streets onto the highly dangerous BART system. If you follow the news, there are pleny of murders in Richmond, Oakland, San Leandro, and San Francisco.
I travel weekly to the Bay Area and I keep up on the news to get an idea of where not to hang around.
There was a BART employee stabbed recently. A while ago, in San Leandro, there was someone shooting people driving down the freeway.
In 2003, Richmond had 35 homicides. Berkeley had 5 homicides. Oakland usually has around 80 a year.
On this web site,
Richmond is listed as the 12th most dangerous city. Oakland is 24th.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
I would be happy if they'd extend the BART an extra ten miles to actually get it to Livermore, instead of stopping in Pleasanton.
in SF [BART] stops frequently and goes to many major destinations
BART doesn't go to any major destinations besides the Financial District, the Civic Center, and the Mission. Thankfully I lived in the Mission a couple months ago, so it was convenient for me when I wanted to go downtown. But to get to any neighborhoods with culture, such as the Haight, Chinatown, North Beach, the Marina, and arguably Nob Hill, BART does nothing to help.
It would be truly awesome if BART would run up Van Ness to Broadway or so, and then either end-of-line up at Fort Mason or turn east through North Beach and reconnect to the main line. MUNI is putting in a line from SBC/PacBell park up to Chinatown, and eventually on to North Beach, but why isn't there something up and down Van Ness??
my blog