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High-Tech RepoMan
PlayfullyClever writes "A new gizmo is upping the odds that even the most hard-knock customer will come up with the car payment. Hooked into the ignition system, the gadget comes in a handful of versions with one common conclusion:
No pay, no start.
It's worked wonders at Norfolk's Patriot Auto Sales, where nearly every car that drives off the lot is outfitted with a PayTeck Smart Box, a system that hands over a five-digit code in exchange for each payment. Come due date, the car won't crank until the customer punches the code into a palm-size keypad wired into the dash.
I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money."
And people accept this? I though the day someone introduced DRM on physical products people think they understand (unlike computers) would be the day the publik spoke out against this nonsense. If people accept "car DRM" then I guess they will accept all sorts of computer based DRM too. This is sad news.
Like requiring a breathalyzer on board each car, or a GPS system, this assumes too much in the way of wrongdoing on my part for me to like it.
Of course, with my good credit and automatic payments, I'm not likely to get behind on payments, such that the system might cost more than it's worth. I hope the keypad can be used for other things as well.
For somebody with shady credit, though, it might be an option, though like what was stated, it'd probably be pretty easy to bypass if you know what you're doing.
I don't read AC A human right
"I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money."
From TFA:
"Buyers sign forms acknowledging the Smart Box, agreeing not to tamper with it and promising to return to the dealership for a free removal after the last payment is made."
That implies that screwing with it in any way will get you into trouble if you get caught. That's not to say that somebody won't try, but it also implies that they have a means of catching you.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
If the company using it saved money overall and could give you a better price than the competition.
My brother runs a car lot in Memphis and has been using a device like this for years.
Sure a saavy mechanic can find the ignition lock out and disable it, but its in the contract that people sign at purchase that they will not disturb it, and is a felony to tamper with it (at least in Tennessee).
He's had a few folks defeat it and stop making payments, but eventually something happens to get the car repo'd and the customer in hot water. He says he's lost a very tiny percentage of the hundreds of cars he's outfitted with the ignition lock out.
--
We don't NEED no stinkin' sig
Not really. It just means that they would fall back on the existing system, that is, physical repossession. In other words, it's no worse than the current system (from their perspective), and might encourage the non-hackers (eg almost everyone) to pay up.
This is "collateral" for people with BAD credit; either you play their game or you don't get a car.
Think about why you have credit so bad that the only way you can get a car is with one of these boxes.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
This is probably less expensive than having to go out and repo cars for late payments which usually results in exorbitant (300-500 dollars) charges in order to get the car back in addition to making all the late payments. At least this way, you call up, do an electronic payment and you can get your car back right away without being extorted for repo fees.
Cool, you don't just get the car but also a nice keypad that comes with it. * hotwiring rental as usual *
On se Internetz nobody noes your German.
Repo men, whatever you think about their profession, risk their lives daily in order to prevent auto theft, which in a way is what failing to pay car payments is.
It isn't even like loan companies send out the repo man after your first failure to pay. You typically get several months of haggling and pleading before the loan company has no other alternative but to send someone out to repossess the automobile. And the repo man is frequently in danger from people who don't have enough money to pay the loan companies but usually enough to buy bullets.
Using a technical measure to disable cars, making them useless to the owner, is a great idea. It works with drunk drivers and car thieves. Just kill the engine and the car isn't going anywhere. The loan company can then repossess the car at their leisure, along with adding extra pressure on the defaulting "owner" to pay.
The real bottom line is not to over-extend your finances. Try to buy large items like cars with cash. The worst monetary investment you can make is to take out a loan to pay for a car you can't afford.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
Nothing like old news to hit the front page. Again. And Again.
I found the "Any" key.
Security-expert-turned-law-prof Nick Szabo predicted this kind of thing many years ago. He called it a Smart Contract. The idea was to use technology to make contracts self-enforcing. Like many of Nick's ideas, he was and is way ahead of his time. These kinds of things are inevitable.
Yeah, worst case scenario, but a liability nonetheless. The reason this system won't be accepted is because the current system is one based on trust and legal consequences. You purchase/lease the car with the expectation that it starts whenever you want it to. Even if there is a problem with the billing system of your credit card company or bank, or with the company who maintains the payment records for your car.
They are assuming some amount of risk by letting you make your payments over a period of time and in return they tend to get more money than if you paid it all up front. That is how the system has always worked, and thats how it will continue to work because not enough people will be stupid enough to lose their end of that bargain.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
I think these guys are the biggest crooks. I almost brought a junker from one of these places way back in 1990, when I did not have a lot of money. They charge 15+% interest! They take advantage of the poorest, underpriviledged people who need cars, but have bad or no credit (I had no credit). No wonder no one wants to pay. I'll never recommend them and try to convince people to use public transportation whenever possible. At least in the long run, they would be able to save a little money and build credit. That's what I did.
Coderz 4 Life
See subject.
Most of the people who are not making payments are poor people who cant afford to do so or con artists looking for a free ride (pun intended), not automotive electrical engineers who can bypass the elecronic ignition cutoff that this thing must be hooked to.
.. ah yes, gamers you know the words, say them wtih me...
Could the experienced person tinker with this and get away with the car? Perhaps. I think its a good system. Its meant to be more of a pain in the ass than anything. I know of some dealers who install GPS signals into the cars they sell to their "good credit-bad-credit-no-credit-come-one-come-all" customers. No pay, they repo the car. The reciever is hidden in some crazy place like behind the dash so the customer will never find it.
Also remember that if the do go delinquent on their payments, and the dealer files the car as stolen... they are then commiting
GRAND THEFT AUTO.
this kind of enter a pin number to start the car would stop a lot of car thefts probably. and maybe even drunk drivers (i know someone who had an unlock code for his phone that was ridiculously long so that he didn't make stupid calls when drunk, if he was so messed up he couldn't get it right he assumed it was a bad time to call)
I fixed the summary for ya:
"I would think this 'Smart Box' would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies exactly where they are now."
Surely it's not like this box makes it *easier* for someone to stop paying?
There are people in Michigan that leave their cars running during work. They do this because this device does not shut off your car in the middle of it being on. Too many accidents were caused by this. This is a normal thing among the Detroit area. Plus the sales lot that has this gizmo charges ubsurd interest rates and doesn't do a credit check and people still sign up!!
Just image the lawsuits when someone who has one of these boxes is trying to get away from a criminal and flee to safety or some other similar emergency!
I guess this auto dealer likes writing the checks. Seriously though folks, I don't see why we can't just walk right down the street to "Joe's Auto" and buy the same car without the box and without the potential problems.
-Mind
Before we get too far into the comments going on and on about how we wouldn't accept these in our cars and yadda yadda, we have to stop and remember one thing.
For the majority of people, you wouldn't need a system like this. Why? Because the majority of people, especially here, have reputable credit and can get a car loan, or have cash on hand to put a significant amount down.
I have a good friend who works in auto sales, and things in the used car business have become so bad, in terms of financing, that they were getting customers on the lot, essentially 'sold' them the car, and then couldn't get any banks to finance them. So what were they left doing? Financing the sale themselves.
Basically, you agree to pay the car dealership directly, instead of a bank. This puts a lot of pressure on the dealership, because instead of getting, say $12,000 upfront, in one payment from a bank, they are now getting monthly payments of $250 for the next 5 years or so. In doing this, they are really hanging their rear out, because if that customer makes two payments, and disapears off the face of the earth, that dealership has no way of tracking them, or their car, down.
That's why these systems are catching on so quickly, not as another form of 'big brother', but as an alternative for someone out there who needs a car, and can make payments, but can't get financed through a bank. This way, a dealership can move cars off their lot, and still protect their investment.
If you don't want a system like this in your car, the solution is simple, keep good credit. If you do that, then you'll be able to get bank financing, not get ripped off by a car dealership, and don't have to worry about 'big brother' in the passanger seat.
No man is an island, But if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie them together, they make a pretty good raft.
How about banner ads running across my dashboard to reduce my payment?
I know a lot of people are going to immediately hate this idea, but I personally like it. I imagine the net result is that dealerships will be able to offer better deals to people with damaged credit. As it stands, giving a loan to a guy with poor credit to buy a car is a big risk. If the money never comes through, then they need to send out an expensive repo man to get back a car that now isn't considered new and might even be damaged. With this system, the risk is substantially reduced to the dealership. There isn't much incentive to fight to keep your car back if your car won't start. It makes everyone's life much easier. Further, I imagine that for people with good credit they won't even have this system in place.
This is nothing but good contract enforcement. Fail to pay for the property you took, and it becomes unusable until you do make the payment. Pay on time and there is no problem. Have good credit and I imagine they won't even bother with the extra cost to install this gadget. This isn't locking someone out of their computer because they are put in your shitty music CD. This is enforcing a contract in which you promised to delay full payment and make installment payments. Fail to keep up your end, and you loose the property that you took until you make good on your promise to pay.
They run it 24x7? Or jump it each morning?
"Actually, it's still extortion plain and simple. There is a local "buy here, pay here" car dealer that has been using these devices for quite awhile. You would think that in exchange for getting put a device on a car that you own that they would give the people with shitty credit history a break on the interest payments."
You OWN the car when you've made all the payments. And no it's NOT extortion, because you can always take your business elsewere.
"I'd also point out that even if you need a loan to buy a car you still own that car outright."
You can point till the cows come home. Legally your still wrong.
"Failing that, if you must have a nice car and can't afford to buy it outright, then get the loan for your car from your credit union or local community bank. Why the hell should we be doing the auto financing companies any favors?"
Maybe...because neither institute wants to take the risk. A community bank, or a credit union isn't going to stick their necks out for a known risk.
Then stop fucking reading slashdot. yeesh!
Push start a manual car with the key set to on and it can't beat you. Does it go "Hey the engine just started, but it's on so let's leave it on?" or does it shut the car back off?
I was in the navy and yes I was stationed in Norfolk, VA. Most of these used car dealerships in Norfolk area are some of the most sleazy joints I have ever encountered. I have seen some of them sell poor newbie sailors crap like a 500 dollar beat up pinto for tens of thousands of dollars. Hell I used to be a mechanic in the area and some of the patch jobs I did on engines and stuff for some of these sleazy dealerships was simply scary. They used to bring me stuff that had rings so shot that the cars looked like a mosquito fogger going down the road. I would swap out the oil with some good ole synthetic (does not smoke when burning) and shoot it down the road. The dealership would sell it to some fool with a 30 day warranty on the engine and laugh their way to the bank.
The state could step up and do something about it by applying reasonable intrest rate caps like a bunch of states do.
Got Code?
Someone stupid enough that they buy a car they can't afford isn't going to be smart enough to hack the box. Those that do have a paycheck aren't going to mess that up hacking them for losers to stupid to hold a job.
Learn to love Alaska
Repetiveness doesn't seem to keep you from slapping the ham though does it?
I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money." yeah, and everyone that buys cars is l33t.
I know that technically, the bank owns the car until it's paid off... but I'd never buy a car from a lot that did this. It's too much like asking permissions to use your own car.
What about when it's paid off?
What about if you're stuck in the wilderness and can't get the code even though the payment is auto-withdrawn... too many ways to screw the consumer.
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
Actually, these aren't all that new. A couple years ago a Ford Dealer in the Detroit area, Mel Farr (a former Detroit Lions Football player in addition to sleezy used car salesman archtype) drew some heat for installing similar devices in the vehicles of his, ahem, "higher risk" clients. The story hit the papers and caused a bit of a stir (and the link / story I submitted were rejected. I was heartbroken.)
As an aside, Mel Farr was run out of business by Ford after racking up close to 30 million dollars in debt. They got tired of his "the check's in the mail" line and simply "forgave" Farr's debts in exchange for his dealerships. Apparently the no-pay no-start devices didn't help with the used car business.
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
I'd have thought a system like this would be better implemented on rental vehicles rather than HP vehicles.
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Of course there are all manor of comedy alternatives you could use this idea for
Missed a mortage payment? Your door doesn't open anymore.
Didn't pay your income tax this year? Your ATM card doesn't work anymore.
And the all time #1 idea
Please enter the five digit code so your heart can beat for this month.
Music is everybody's possession.
It's only publishers who think that people own it.
Fuck Beta
~John Lenno
A few years ago I developed a GPS-based system for tracking vehicles. Long story, but the client's original business plan didn't work--but his sales manager cottoned on to the idea of installing the units in cars at buy-here, pay-here car lots.
I bitched and moaned, and eventually dropped the client--in part because of the liability exposure, and in part because of the general sleaze. But I learned a bunch along the way.
How buy-here, pay-here car lots can do this:
It's simple: when you "purchase" a car from a buy-here, pay-here car lot, you're not buying the car. What you're doing is technically signing a "lease-purchase" contract: you're leasing the car until the final payment is made. That means the car dealer doesn't have a secured interest in the car--he OWNS the car. If you miss a payment, he picks up the car--and you have nothing.
That's dramatically different from a typical car purchase. If you buy a car from a new car dealer--or a reputable used-car lot--you will almost always finance the car. If you finance the car at the dealer (generally not a good idea) you'll sign something that looks like a loan agreement, but is technically called a Retail Installment Sales Contract (RISC). It is a contract to pay for the car over a certain period of time. The dealer then sells that contract to a bank or finance company. Key point: you are buying the car, and signing a contract to pay a loan--securing the loan with the car's title. Suppose you buy a $25,000 car, and put down $5,000 in cash and trade-in on your old car. Suppose you lose your job two weeks later, and can't pay the loan. You tell the bank--they'll be perfectly willing to take the car, liquidate the loan (by selling the car at auction), and give you the difference between what they sell the car for, and the balance on your loan.
With a lease-purchase agreement, it doesn't work that way. The car belongs to the dealer, not to you. If the dealer suckers you into putting money down, you have only the contract language (if any) to guarantee that you'll get anything back if the car is repossessed.
Buy-here, pay-here is a very bad deal
Bottom line: if your credit is so bad that you have to agree to install any kind of automated device to track you or force you to pay, you shouldn't be buying a car. First, you clearly are going to have trouble affording the car. Second, the cars the buy-here, pay-here crooks sell are typically heaps of junk: the cars left over at the auction that nobody wants to buy. A 1992 Ford with 150,000 miles on it isn't just going to require a monthly (or weekly) payment to the dealer--it's going to require a steady stream of parts and repair bills to keep rolling. Your chances of keeping that heap rolling for the two or three years of the "loan" are slim: and if the heap dies, you're still stuck paying credit card interest rates, and you don't have wheels.
I own and operate a used car lot. The devices we use are by a company called Passtime. The type of operation we have is a buy-here-pay-here lot that attracts a lot customers with sub-prime credit, and we haven't had a single customer not buy a car because of the device. The fact is, if they won't agree to having the device on their car, they probably won't pay (keep in mind, these are sub-prime customers). We usually weed them about before they even come inside!
The device is quite easy to "hack" if you would even call it that. Its just soldered to the wiring harness and can VERY easily be bypassed. Most customers don't question it because "its a little computer thingy" and its "very complex".
Apart from all that, in the contract, the customer must sign about three pages of forms made up of about 15 signatures from both buyer and co-buyer agreeing to all the terms and conditions regarding the device. Again, our customers never have a problem signing their John Hancock on the line.
About the operation of the device: Currently, the device we use utilizes a "code" system where the customer pays their payment, we give them a 9-digit code from Passtime's website. The code is only good for however many days we set it, then we can set warning days where it will beep upon starting to remind them that their payment is due, and each code has atleast two emergency days that they can use by pressing 999-999-999.
Regardless, it'd be nice if Passtime would give me the freakin' code to generate the Passtime codes so I can integrate it into my software! They protect it quite well, thankfully!
This is only targeted at those with poor credit. For one thing you are right, that for people with good credit it's an unnecessary cost (good credit means, by definition, a person that generally repays debts on time and in full). However the bigger reason is that this pisses people off and if you have good credit, you have options. If a dealership wanted to do this you could simply go to your bank, get a loan form them with the car as colleratal and go buy the car straight cash from the dealer, in which case they'd have no right to install such a system.
It's an idea similar to a secured credit card. Most people have unsecured cards, meaning that the bank is wiling to loan you an amount of money up to the limit of your card. They trust (or perhaps hope in some cases) that you will pay them back. However for people with really bad credit, or with no credit, they often aren't willing to do this. After all, if you walk on them, they are screwed. So what you can do is get a secured card. You put a certian amount of money in an account, as much as you like. You then get a card with a limit of that amount. Should you fail to pay, they'll take the money in the account to pay it, nothing lost.
So same thing here, it's security for the lender that in the event they don't get paid, the car won't just run off to some other state or country and become hard to impossible to track down. True it can be bypassed, but that's not real likely.
Only on Slashdot could I find out about an article like this, about a device that only affects people who do NOT make their contracted car payment, and then find comment after comment after comment talking about how horrible this is. I guess its just terrible the way those bad old car lots expect people to actually follow their agreement and *pay* for their car.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Landlords have been doing this for YEARS with washing machines.
Since that's no worse than the past, this is an all positive for dealers, unless people get insanely pissed about losing their right to have something for nothing. Hehe.
I would encourage everybody out there to avoid the whole problem by not buying a car that you need a loan on.
Then what car should somebody who just got his first job drive back and forth to work in? Even your 2,000 USD car is a significant purchase for someone who makes 5.15 USD per hour before income tax.
And driving cheap ghetto cars allows me to avoid having to pay for expensive collision coverage.
Yet new drivers still have to pay 2,000 USD per year for required liability coverage in some states.
I get the feeling that the company is treating everyone as criminals: guilty until proven innocent. I would never buy a product from them. The whole credit system is based on the assumption that people are responsible and pay their debt. Yes, there are losses, but they are taken into account in pricing, insurance and credit rating. Giving credit was what made a lot of businesses stay afloat, because many people cannot afford to pay cash for their purchases. When you start treating people like criminals is just like reverting to cash and carry: you get paid for sure, but you lose custommers who are not sure thay can pay, although it turns out they could've. Too bad they never took the risk.
keyboard not found! press any key to continue...
...that owns a buy-here, pay-here dealership. These devices are a true blessing to buy-here, pay-here dealers. Repo-rate is now as low as 33%!
I can say this. I aman american. I am simple and mostof the time...to the point. I wouldnot buy a car that had a device like this installed...weither I could defeat it or not. That inmy book is giving too much control and power to someone else when it concerns your own life....or in this case your car. I know that we all have $$$ issues...heck I am coming out of debt myself, but forsomeoneto have that much control over your car...that is going to far. I am simple and donot like the idea of being able to start my car by dialing an 800 number such as with On-Star. If you can do that over the phone..then what else can it do that they do not tell you about? I love computers,use Linux, enjoy reading techie books, but I do have my limits and things like this "pay menow or no drive" system...and chips in my hand for "labeling" and money transactions is going to far inmy book. I choose to stay away from those things and if a car dealer has such a box in the car...I will shopsomewhere else.
Geek, audiophile, and gearhead all rolled into one....whoda thunk it
I thought this was going to be about the Alex Cox film of the same name being remastered or something.
Blessed are the 1337, for they shall pwn the earth.
I seem to be posting this a lot, but I have a buy-here, pay-here car lot and I have not lost a SINGLE customer because of installing starter interrupt devices! Zero! ZILCH! ABSOLUTELY NONE! Remember, the customers that must have these installed have sub-prime credit! If someone walked on my lot, wanted my '99 Mustang GT, and they had $3,000 down and a 600 beacon, THEY'RE GETTING THE CAR! If they request no device installed, FINE! It won't be installed!
So what you can do is get a secured card. You put a certian amount of money in an account, as much as you like. You then get a card with a limit of that amount. Should you fail to pay, they'll take the money in the account to pay it, nothing lost.
So what's the difference between a secured credit card and a VISA debit card connected to a checking account?
A device like this was featured on one of the news segments about 2 years ago (Austin, TX). The device is used to secure payment from folks who have a shaky credit past or are likely to abscond (er, Southward). Its not your new Merc buyer with the $500,000 home that tgets slapped with the device. Its the really USED car dealers that are moving old clunkers into eager hands.
[electron]
and when you are stuck at some dangerous/crappy place because something goes wrong even if you paid, then you can sue the company and buy 3 cars ...
...
not for me... I am really an electronic friendly person, but when it comes to a reliable vehicle it is all but lotsa electronics
it's like if you go to siberia you want an ak47 not some spiffy hightech rambo gear from the latest installment of ghost recon or other near science fiction shooter
Like any rational person, I walk or use mass transit for my everyday travels. I have a car for one purpose, and one purpose only: When the giant meteor is headed towards earth, or when the dead start getting up and walking, or the bird flu starts killing billions and civilization breaks down, I have a vehicle ready to go with a full tank of gas to head up to the Yukon.
Fuel might be a problem after the post-apocolypse... but in many end of the world scenarios, there will be plenty of abandoned vehicles to ciphen fuel from. But having to enter a number in order to use your car every so often makes owning a car as useless as FEMA in a disaster!
Long time lurker here... I think I am qualified as an expert, having come from a family of car salesmen. I have been actively involved in the new and used car business for over 20 years. I currently work as internet sales manager at a medium sized Big 3 dealership. Like all other dealerships, we regularly run "come one, come all" types of sales. While these sales bring out several people with strong credit, it also drags in the absolute dregs of society. We make our living selling cars. Most of these scumbags are simply societal misfits. They are not people with "no credit". There are people with abysmal credit. We see Transunion scores under 500 on a regular basis. These people could not finance a pack of chewing gum without a 700+ score co-buyer. So where does that leave them? Why at the "b" lot "buy here-pay here" operation. I have a personal friend that is involved in this business. He is a small businessman with limited resources. He does not carry a large inventory, but the cars he does have are decent. He does his best to make sure that the cars he sells are in good running order, as he knows that if the car isn't running, the customer is not going to be paying. He charges exhorbitant interest rates, but he is the one taking all the risk. If the customer skips town with the car, he has the expense of trying to reclaim it. Most of his customers are pretty faithful in paying, but that is only because he is very selective about who he sells to. Why people think that profit is some kind of crime in the car business is beyond me. Nobody faults the factory worker building the car for pushing for bigger money and benefits. There is no union for salespeople in the car biz. Most dealers offer pretty poor benefit packages. This device is being used successfully by several dealers. They have invested in technology to protect their financial interests. How is this different than a tech guy investing in quality software to protect their property?
How's this device different than this case?. Seems odd that the developer gets sued but the used car dealer gets away with doing essentially the same thing.
I'll never recommend them and try to convince people to use public transportation whenever possible.
Good luck talking your boss into letting you spend the night at the workplace before and after your Sunday or holiday hours because the buses don't run on Sundays or legal holidays, and no employer is willing to hire you without assigning you Sunday or holiday hours.
One of my clients is a buy here pay here used car dealer. They had that system for a while, but they said their clientele looked on the Internet and found a way to bypass the system altogether. End result? Car started, no payment, and the old fashioned repo man had to go looking for the cars.
= Grow a brain...
...doesn't the car have to be worth more than $5k? Or is my information old?
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
This is old fucking news, this has been out on the market for years...my friend has one on his car for about the past 2 years, and its been out before that. Their are certain ways to circumvent it and you can brute force the password for the thing.
"You'll note they use the term "current owner". A lien simply records the fact that somebody might have a security interest in the property. It does not mean they own it. It gives them a legal means of seizing that property if any obligations are not met -- but until they seize it they do not own it."
c e/different/ownership.htm
c ourt=10th&navby=case&no=023072
Lien law is more complicated than that and varies from state to state.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/leasing/resour
"Achieving full ownership. When buying a vehicle with cash, you receive immediate ownership of the vehicle. When purchasing a vehicle with an installment sales contract or loan, you pay down the loan balance and eventually build equity in the vehicle. You receive full ownership of the vehicle after you make your final payment."
In other words one ISN'T the full owner of the car. Think of it as joint ownership.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?
"Clark, supra, at 12-14.
Under the majority approach, regardless of any express statutory requirements, a secured creditor is not required to disclose its status as a lienholder on a vehicle's certificate of title in order to achieve perfected status. Instead, it is sufficient if the creditor is identified as the owner of the vehicle."
Now you see why you should leave the law to the lawyers. Even if in this one case, in this one state, you were correct. There are fifty other states, and territories, let alone circumstances, you could be wrong.
> law that makes our jury system so fail so spectacularly
Since your spectacular knowledge pegs this as craptacular ignorance, you must have demonstrable reasons to say so, right? You should be able to point to the legal statutes in question, or to case history, or to judicial opinions on the matter, or even to legal blogs discussing this, yes?
Or are you just giving another craptacular opinion based on craptacular ignorance and assumptions?
You might well be right; you just haven't given us any reason to believe you. In fact, given how you jumped right in there to start the insult train, history suggests you might not be all that believable after all.
Moreover, your claim that malfunction needs to be willful is not entirely supported.
I wondered what happened to good old Mel. The way channel 20 and 50 were blanketed with Mel Farr ads when I was growing up, I had this skewed vision that that's how everyone bought cars! "$99 down, $99/month!"
creation science book
I worked on a start-up several years back (that did not go anywhere) that was developing an after-market speed limiter. Basically for parents to give the teenager a car but program it with a maximum speed.
Anyway, among the prior art (evan at that time) were these types of systems. The first few would not check the engine status when the time of month came and often shut off when the deadbeat driver was on the highway or in heavy traffic. Hilarity ALWAYS ensued.
A airfare to Iraq: 500
The look on on your face when you hack the new and improved repoman to fool them into not harassing you: Priceless
Visa- It's everywhere you want to be.
"I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money."
Maybe. But let's say that a large percentage of their customers don't know how to remove it. The few who can have only succeeded in turning their ownz0red car into a regular car - one that the repo man can still try to take from them like any other car. The company still has ways to get their money, and they'll use them.
"Would you recommend a bike in temperatures below 0 degrees F (-18 degrees C)? Or is it possible to take winter off unpaid and still have enough money to live on?"*
:)
I'm not even certain why you possed this question? I'm not the AC you're replying to, but I'm gearing up to do just that. I've lived here over ten years through many cold winters, and a mountain bike (a GOOD bike) made the impossible at most difficult. We have buses here too, but our system leaves much to be desired. That's why telecommuting would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. At least I hope I can get a job at the hospital next door, and there are plenty of retail stores just up the street and around the block if push comes to shove. It all comes down not to a bike, or a car, or a bus, or a...but willpower (1).
*since you asked and apparently haven't ever ridden a bike during the winter. The exertion and proper insulation keeps you quite warm.
(1) for all the rural people who commute, I grieve for you.
This should actually be pretty good for most of us. If the rate of taken cars and cost of repoing goes down, then since thereis less risk for auto companies, the interest rates should fall for all us honest car buyers, who were previously effectively subsidising the crooks that stole their cars after not making all the payments.
As for this stupid comment by the original poster: I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money.
You mean as opposed to before, where you could hack the system by just driving out of town? It's not perfect, but it delivers probably 90% of the value of a perfect system, as opposed to about 0%.
I have a friend that used to work in the used car business. The dealers in the area all had an agreement--they had a secret code called MONEYCLIPS. Each letter in MONEYCLIPS stood for a number (0=M, 1=O, 2=N, 3=E, etc). When they would give the buyer a quote, they would include a little serial number with the car (various purposes were given, 'to describe the extras you selected', 'a manufacturer part number', etc.) If they quoted $14,995 for a piece of junk, they would include the 'serial number' OYSSC with the quote. When the buyer went around to the other dealers, they would ask for the serial number and quote the buyer the same price they had gotten from the last dealer. In this way they managed to keep their monopoly on the car business by ripping people off for several years.
Reminds me of Steinbeck's The Pearl.
Probability of a default: probably greater than 25% and maybe even 50% for some bottom-dweller car dealerships.
.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.
Probability of such a calamity and someone is injured and they sue because they couldn't start their car and they get a sympathetic jury and they get a good lawyer: maybe
The expected value for this proposition is definitely positive for using such a beasty.
You can sue over anything if you have enough money. If you don't have the money, you need to find a good lawyer who works on contingency who thinks your case will pay. Good luck with this one due to your point.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Sure, one day it'll stop working because you're reaching the end of its service life, but you generally get fair warning of impending failure -- lots of smoke, burning oil, stalling, loss of power, whatever. Allocate $800 for the car, $800 to keep it duct taped together for a year or maybe more (which you don't need to have up front), and build up some money in that time. Then the next time, you either find a better cheap car (by having time to be selective) or just buy one not so old -- one you might actually be able to sell some day rather than run into the ground.
You do need to be somewhat selective, but I have bought cars for under $1000 that ran for up to two years without anything beyond basic maintenance (tires, oil changes, brakes, the things all cars use up). If you find your finances improving, you may even choose to rehabilitate your car rather than replacing it, if you think it's fundamentally sound enough. After all, why trade your (known) problems for someone else's (unknown) problems if yours aren't that bad? Besides, if you can't fix your car this week, then don't. You have to make other arrangements, but at least nobody is going to repo the car.
If you opt for the cheap car, it's probably wise to select not only on price and condition, but on pricing and availability of parts. My current car is a 1989 Subaru XT6 -- a great car to drive, and parts aren't particularly expensive, but they are hard to get (usually special order) and the engine is essentially unserviceable without being pulled. If you want to keep your $800 daily driver running without having to plan ahead, you'd be better off with a Camry or Corolla or Civic. The parts aren't any cheaper, but at least they're ubiquitous. You'd also get better mileage than I do (18/24), but I knew that going in. That's the price to be paid for the 4WD system of the day (current AWD is much less wasteful). I didn't get this car to be just another disposable item and have dumped far more money into repairs than I did into the initial purchase, so I guess I'm finally breaking out of the cycle of cheap cars at the ends of their lives.
All that said, if you just want something you don't have to worry about, you probably want a "pre-owned" car with some sort of warranty remaining. If you can't afford a new car, or don't want any of the new cars you can actually afford, this is the next best thing. Let someone else take the steepest part of the depreciation.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
I've already answered the "ownership"* issue with another poster. So rather than get into a "yes/no" shouting match, why don't you simply tell me the law firm you're affiliated with.
*Also the "different kinds of lien", and "depends on state and circumstances" while I was at it, but I don't think anyone needs that kind of depth.
Has one of these on her....Nevermind.
hey i have an idea, if the car place uses this key code system and you dont like it, go to another dealership. problem solved.
This is different because the car dealerships give full disclosure. Get a clue.
argumentum ad fallacium: Fallacy of defining a fallacy which allows one to dismiss the argument in question.
**** Bzzzzzzzt: step out of the car. ****
You blew the whole friggin' surplus on rich people?!
**** Bzzzzzzzt: step out of the car. ****
Heating oil is going to cost how much?!
**** Bzzzzzzzt: step out of the car. ****
Thousands dead and wounded, no oil coming out of Iraq, torture rooms on three continents, and the whole world hates us?
**** Bzzzzzzzt: this way to your prison cell. ****
"Before you wax poetic about these noble dealers, consider the amount of sleaze in the BHPH market. "
And once again we see what's wrong with slashdot. You defend the truth, and your labeled "you must be one of THEM!! BURN! BURN!". A fact especially humerous in light of Roblimo's "let's lecture to the experts" story.
A lien is a simple concept, with a very clear definition. If you need to be a lawyer to figure it out, then either property ownership barely exists where you are, or you need to work on your reading comprehension. You didn't even point out which post you say you explained it in.
Don't you dare try to hide behind some kind of bullshit facade of something like "are you a lawyer". That's just as good as "Oh, you don't know about computers, you don't have a Bachelor's degree"... "Oh, you're not a lawyer, you don't know anything about law". The only benefit the lawyer has is that they are theoretically exposed to *more* law, and more case law, and have procedural training. The benefit to a normal person acquiring the services of a lawyer is that they can hold the lawyer responsible for misinterpreting the law.
I'm not going to do legwork for you to pull up specific code that defines it for each state, country, province, town, etc. Liens have been around for centuries, and they are still the same concept today. Since you're demanding information from me without supplying anything about yourself, so no, I refuse your request. You can tell me what law firm you're supposed to be with.
The world over considers lien to be a mark on property that signifies another party with some stake in that property. That mark may not be a physical mark, as it tends to be with titled/deeded property, but it is a legal construct. You don't have clear title/deed to the property while there is a lien on it, since the lienholder could take ownership of that property under certain conditions. It can also mean that the creditor can retain your property until some condition is met.
In all cases, you own the property that has the lien against it. If you didn't own it, the lien would serve no purpose. It would provide no penalty if you were to refuse to fulfill the conditions involved with the lien.
A lien simply means that another party has the right to take your property under certain circumstances.
+ dugg
The exertion and proper insulation keeps you quite warm.
Actually, it's not keeping warm that I'm worried about as much as hazardous road conditions.
You take out a loan and then "don't want to pay" because you don't like the terms which were known to you before you took the loan... but somehow the lenders are the crooks.
So ok... I need my car so I can get to work to make money to make my car payment. Yeah, payday is in 3 days, but now the car company will get ZERO dollars instead of a full payment 3 days late. How does this solution make any sense at all?
There's a lady whose car was towed by the government because she owed $37 in back taxes. There's tax collectors going around running plates and if you owe taxes, they take your car.
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A few years ago I saw something like this in a friends car. This was from a small lot, private deal, kinda thing. Only their solution didn't require any codes, it was all controlled through the satellite. How is this making the front page of slashdot when far more advanced versions of the technology were old-hat years ago?
Question
http://www.ironfroggy.com/
> I will eventually get a title from DMV that shows that I own that car.
Bzzt. When the car is sold on credit, the lien holder receives title to the car. When you pay off the car loan, the lien holder mails you the title. The law says that whoever has the title owns the car.
Because The life of a Repo Man is always intense!
Antti S. Brax - Old school - http://www.iki.fi/asb/
I recall reading about his dealership installing these devices years ago and wondered how it all worked out. The device in the picture looked like a big-ass early '70s calculator mounted on the steering column.
I suppose, as drastic as these measures seem, at least a lot of people were able to get cars that no other dealer would dare sell to. (Although they probably end up paying like $15,000 for a $5000 car, when all is said and done - just like the good ole' rent-to-own scam.)
The public transit system in Detroit is sooooo crappy and underfunded for such a big city, can't say I blame the people for being so desparate to have a car (and DAMN it gets cold there, in the winter).
| j |
I think that depends on if it's cheaper to hack the system, or to simply pay (after all you owe the money!).
Remember, not everybody out there can just hack stuff themselves...
why is is that every slashdot post about property or rights eventually turns to guns? ;-)
You need to brush up on your secured credit law bucko. A car loan comes with a security interest in the car. The car belongs to the customer. In no way is failing to pay the loan back "theft," it is default on a loan or, at most, fraud if the person entered into the contract with scienter. It is no more theft than failing to pay one's credit card bill.
The holder of a security interest (the car lender, here) has the right to "self help" in the event of default to satisfy the debt. (He also has the right to proceeds if the owner sells the car to someone else.) This is a difference from "unsecured credit," the best example being a credit card. No matter how much money someone owes on a credit card, the repo man can't come to his house and take some stuff to settle the debt.
In other words, I would bet you five hundred dollars you could not find a single court case where someone was convicted of "theft" for failing to make his car payments. I'm glad you're a fan of the repo man, honorable work, blah blah blah, but like most slashdot posters you don't know much about the law.
With great power comes great fan noise.
...If you fail to make your car/mortgage payments, that means you OWE MONEY to the creditor...
Yes you own money.
But do not forget that the creditors HOLDS THE TITLE to that object you are paying for, which means THEY OWN IT. More than oweing them money they have agreed to pass ownerrship to you for some amount of money.
If you cease paying them, heck even if they just don't like you, they are perfectly within thier rights to take what is, very legally, yours - house or car. Now there are laws that prevent them from going to quite that extent because loss of a home is such a hardship. But at no point in time until you receive title is something yours, and thus your use of it wihtout permission is theft (in the cae of a car) or tresspassing (in the case of the more fixed object like a house). I would argue in the case of a trailer home it's still theft. That's just haggling over terms though, it really is no different than walking into a store, throwing a dollar on the ground and running out with a TV set.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
A dealer in the Detroit area which has since went out of buisness was using something like this for years.
- If the car doesnt start, they might pay on time, instead of waiting for a few harassing phone calls and threats of reposession.
- With timely payments, the seller might not have to pay repo agencies for phonecalls and visits in the night.
- With a bit lower costs, the seller just might be able to pass a bit of the savings to the consumer.
Slightly optimistic, but it might just happen.I saw this on 20/20... like, oh at least TEN YEARS AGO!
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
But do not forget that the creditors HOLDS THE TITLE to that object you are paying for, which means THEY OWN IT.
/.....everything in black and white. But it's not all that simple.
Typically, but not always. The last vehicle I bought was secured by my house, not itself. Why? Better rate on the loan.
I know...this is
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
So this device can't be uninstalled? Security by obscurity.
Will the company who installed the device take liability when they prevent the car from starting in an emergency and someone loses their life or is severely injured? I doubt it.
But that's the point of this article and you missed it. If you are buying a car from a dealership, PAYING the dealership, you betcha the wording states that the creditor (the dealership) holds the title.
-everphilski-
Of course I missed the point of the article. I didn't even read the whole summary.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money.
You mean it would be just like it is now, where you don't pay and they come and manually reposess your car?
What this would prevent is late payments. Those types of people who "never" pay their payments would get their car reposessed anyway, whether it be via a no-start option like this, or the old manual way.
Instead, people who pay their payments late, but still really want to keep their car would be the ones to get dinged by this. They would either learn to pay their payments on time, or get a long that few days/week without a car until their payment is processed.
Just because someone hacks it doesn't mean they'd get a "free" car.
And they said zombies weren't real!
This would by why they provide a small number of one-time-use 'emergency' codes.
That having been said, personal responsibility; if you want to be able to use your car, pay for the damn thing.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
It seems insane to me. Now don't get me wrong, I ve worked up my fair share of debt over the years, but spending 10 to 12 grand (at least) on a car when you don't have plenty of cash is nuts. I've owned a sucession of cars, all of which have functioned perfectly, including a Supra sports car and I've not paid more than £600 (~$1000 I think) for any of them. Now before anyone jumps all over me I should point out that (at least when I started buying) I knew NOTHING about the practical aspects of cars. So in short: eBay is your friend.
"Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
11111, 11112, 11113....... Its called the poormans hack.
I hold the lenders who practice this kind of lending in the same disdain I hold for payday loan places. They extend credit on extortionate terms to those who don't have the money to repay it, and then use the victim's poverty to extort money from them forever. These predatory lending practices are bad for communities, and can destroy families.
While some would argue that these services provide money so people can "get by", they really help people buy things they can't afford, and probably don't need in the first place.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
I have never, *ever* gotten a title from the DMV after buying a car via financing (before it's paid off, I mean). Until the loan is paid in full, the lending bank holds the title. The day I drop the final payment in their hands, they send in a title transfer request to the DMV. All I've got is a "pink slip" that merely authorizes me to register and insure the car under my own name for purposes of use as personal transportation.
So no, you *don't* own the car, the bank does. In the paperwork for the financing, it states quite UNclearly that the lending bank retains all rights of ownership until the debt is paid in full.
I don't know where you're buying your cars, but around here that isn't how things work. Just for the record, I've financed four cars from four different dealerships, and this has always been SOP.
>Nothing personal, but just because you haven't had a single customer
/do/.
/owns/ a buy here-pay-here car lot. He knows the kind of clientel that buys from his kind of car lot from first-hand experience. He wouldn't be putting these things on his cars (and paying for them) if he didn't feel he was getting a return on his investment.
>refuse to purchase the product because of the device doesn't mean one never will.
And just because you have never missed a car payment doesn't mean that lots of people obviously
Everyone loves to wring their hands over stereotypes, but what happens when you have enough experience to convince yourself that the stereotype is usually true?
This guy
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
And this is why I intend to pay for all my cars up front. After all, it takes less time to save up the money to buy the car than it would to pay off the loan.
A lot of them are bloodsucking motherfuckers that pray for people.
Fixed that for ya, wasn't sure which version you were aiming for though
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
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"The worst thing I'd be doing is breaking a civil contract "
Which happens to be the civil contract that gives you your car.
Which happens not to be yours anymore if you break the contract.
"Unless it phones home then I don't really see what they can do about it."
If you miss your payment, I'm sure the leinholder can still send the "repo-man" around as before. And if you haven't missed a payment, you probably won't feel a need to get rid of the box.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
Right. That's why, back in the day when I was involved in things that required me to be at the courthouse a lot, it was common to see some well-dressed man standing on the courthouse steps, waiting. At an appointed hour, he'd pull some paper from a briefcase and start reading, very quickly and very quietly. Shortly thereafter, in a slightly louder voice, he'd say "No bidders other than the primary" (lienholder). Guess what? A foreclosed house just got sold at public auction for a ridiculously low price. If it used to be yours, you still owe virtually all the unpaid balance of the loan. The bank, however, will send in a fix-up crew, slap on a new coat of paint, spray-paint the lawn green, list the house with a realtor, and put a quick extra USD$30K in assets on their books.
No matter how much a particular realty market is skyrocketing, I've never heard of an owner getting their loan paid off and excess proceeds given back to them following a foreclosure. Yeah, it's possible, but I've never heard of it happening.
But do not forget that the creditors HOLDS THE TITLE to that object you are paying for, which means THEY OWN IT.
Actually, that's incorrect. The creditors place a lien on the title. You hold the title and therefore the vehicle outright.
-Hope
Thing is, the people most likely not to keep up on payments are often the fairly well off. I don't know how many times I saw autos being repoed from the employee parking lot at Intel during my co-op... *shrug* My father's a lawyer for a bank, specializing in bankruptcy and he sees the same thing day after day. The biggest offenders are the upper class, people who can afford to make their payments, but don't. Go figure.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
How in the world did people ever get to work in the winter before there were cars?
Before there were cars, there were fewer people. When there were fewer people, there was less competition for a given job. There was also less demand for real estate, lowering the price for enough land for a family to live on and (if real estate appreciation has in fact outpaced inflation) making it easier to move to where the jobs are instead of making a 60 mile round trip commute every day. Without personal enclosed motor vehicles, we wouldn't have this problem of urban sprawl to nearly such an extent.
Exactly! For example, if I take something that isn't mine without paying for it, have I "stolen," it? Not at all! I'm merely redistributing wealth. And if I shoot someone in the head, did I "murder" them? Of course not! They should know better than to keep their head in front of a gun after it goes off! I'm sick of how the people are trying to malign all sorts of actions by lumping them together under "labels." You can't label me!
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
I'm unfortunate enough to have one of these things in my car. As long as I keep sending money, I get to keep driving. I wasn't always good about paying my bills on time, so I have to pay the price.
But, the big point here is that I am leasing that car. The company was very explicit on that point. I'm sure that most of those 'buy here, pay here' places are doing the same exact thing. That way, they can get away with it. Not that I agree with the concept, but that's the way it works.
One of the benefits, is that this gadget has GPS built in. If by some chance, someone wants to steal it, the get a lawn ornament that can be tracked down and returned. Maybe not in the best condition, but isn't that why I have insurance?
----
The trouble with the rat race is,
even if you win, you're still a rat.
-- Foghorn Leghorn
"Bottom line: if your credit is so bad that you have to agree to install any kind of automated device to track you or force you to pay, you shouldn't be buying a car. " So they're going to ride the bus in Nowhere, West Virginia? People blow up their credit all the time. How can they fix it when any sane creditor won't touch them? This is what they have to turn to. You have to effectively pay the price to prove that you are credit worthy again and that you won't screw all creditors over again like you have been doing. Everyone just assumes these bad credit outfits exist to feed on the less fortunate. Not at all, they're meeting a absolute need! If they weren't around, a lot of people would be completely screwed. As for the accusation flying on here about shady outfits selling rolling heaps, that sucks. Bottom line: Don't screw up your credit that bad as in: Blow up your credit cards and never save a dime only to get laid off or fired and probably not find a job after 6 months of collecting unemployment. If you are financially wise, you won't have to deal with this dillemma unless you get terminally ill and have huge medical bills(in which case you'll haver much bigger things to worry about).
In short, yes.
I don't make that as a glib statement. I'm a deacon in my church, and over the past twenty years I have been intimately involved in the finances of families that have faced very hard times. I've worked with families where one or both parents have been laid off--I've worked with families where the sole breadwinner has been sent to prison. I've taken in families from (literally) off the street. I have found people jobs, I have leaned on employers to provide a more generous paycheck, I have worked with (and/or shamed) creditors into patience or forebearance of debts. I have worked to "clean" more than a few credit reports.
I have also developed consumer lending applications for the credit union industry--I am extremely familiar with many of the internals of the consumer credit system in the U.S., and the pitfalls of things like risk-based lending (the worse your credit score, the higher your loan rate).
I don't mean to monologue you--but to emphasize that I'm not some college campus conservative with no knowledge of what I'm saying. And what I'm saying, and have said to people in precisely this position, is that you can do an awful lot of living without a car. Even if you live in an area like ours, where what little public transit there is runs (at best) once per hour.
You have to make choices--and you have to adapt your life to your circumstances. That may mean that you cannot afford to live in the rural countryside--you may have to move into town. That may mean that you can't shop at three different grocery stores--you may have to shop at the store that's within walking distance. If there isn't a store within walking distance, that may mean that you have to budget for a cab, periodically, and perhaps budget for a large chest freezer.
And a job? Again--if you can't drive, you have to adapt. Is your job near a public transit line? No? Perhaps you need to start looking for a new job. Can you carpool with someone else? Is that someone else a truly reliable person--one on whom you're willing to bet your job? Can you make a carpool--when you don't have a car--work for the other person (i.e. he drives, you provide breakfast)?
And--there's no avoiding it--you will spend time walking. Buy a shopping cart with large diameter wheels, get several pairs of very comfortable shoes, get over the "dress to impress" notion, and you'll discover that walking is pretty cheap.
As I wrote earlier, I have worked with a lot of families. A few have disappeared, preferring the help of family or the welfare system; the vast majority have worked through their difficulties and are self-sufficient. One couple has succeeded so well that they are leading the mercy ministry at their church. And despite their vastly improved finances (and their new car) they still walk about a mile and a half each way to the grocery store.