Microsoft Sued Over Alleged Xbox 360 Defects

richdun writes "Reuters is reporting that a Chicago man who was lucky enough to purchase an Xbox 360 has filed suit against Microsoft over the overheating and crashing some users have experienced. The man is seeking unspecified damages, litigation expenses, and replacement or recall of all Xbox 360s. While more suits or a class-action is probably on the way, others have sought less litigious solutions."

Comments

Fire

[PacketScan]

Xbox Burn your house down edition.

Re:Fire

[pimpsoftcom]

I'm going to give up modding the parent +1 insightful in order to post this here, so please do so for me if you can.

The Parent is correct; If you get something hot enough on today's carpeting or by a wall a fire *will* start. And most gamers/computer people I know have stacks of paper - gaming catalogs, cheat code listings, whatever - by there gaming systems anyway so that only increases the danger.

The fact is Microsoft made a really bad mistake out of either gross incompetence or extreme criminal negligence, and instead of being something as benign to the real word as a BSOD that simply needs a reboot to fix, the over heating of the Xbox360 can and will burn your house down if it gets out of hand. Hell it could not just be your house, it could be your city block or your entire town because you do not even need to be an owner of a XBox360 to have a over heated unit start the fire that will end up destroying everythng you own or burn your family alive. Any of the great fires of Boston or Chicago are the perfect example of this.

I am personally glad he is asking for a full recall of every single unit based on these facts, they are unsafe and all should be destroyed, with the company that made them taking the loss for bad design. And I would feel this way even if I owned the company that built them, or if it was Apple or Sun or any of a million other companies. Its not about Microsoft bashing, its about safety and a company needing to take responsibility for a crappy product that was badly made enough to be dangerous to peoples lives and property.

Re:Fire

[Fiznarp]

Whatever, calm down. I've been playing mine for sometimes 6+ hours a day since Nov 22nd with the power supply sitting on the carpet. No lockups ever, online or offline. The brick on the floor barely gets warm, hardly enough to notice much less start a fire. Those folks who are having problems probably have defective consoles that should be replaced, but by no means does this mean that they all are broken. Most of the 360s sole are working just fine.

Fiznarp

Re:Fire

[scottennis]

Xbox 451?

Re:Fire

[dswan69]

This is just pathetic. Things go wrong. Life isn't perfect. Products have kinks. People who bring childish lawsuits should be sent to live on the sun. If they don't like the conditions there they can sue me.

Re:Fire

[genericbrandname]

yeah if anything turn it over and put a piece of chicken on it and not only do you have a gaming maching but a grill too

Re:Fire

[jayhawk88]

Hyperbole much?

Re:Fire

[jonfelder]

Yet all of these things have happened. Not too mention a person's xbox locking up has much less dire consequences then the things you have listed.

Come on...sure it sucks to get your xbox home and find out it's broken, but really all you have to do is take it back to the store (that is if you don't trust Microsoft to fix it, which they are doing).

Try taking a bridge back to the store.

Re:Fire

[DrEldarion]

The XBoxes locking up has to do with their power supply overheating. Although I haven't heard of any incidents yet, this is indeed a hazard, and there SHOULD be a recall on the PSUs. The fact that this is so widespread makes it obvious that they really rushed these out and didn't test them properly.

Also, you can't just take it back to the store and get a new one, as there aren't any new ones to get.

Re:Fire

[TheViffer]

No .. actually this suit, as many others need to be filed.

If a company pushes out a faulty product, they should be legally obligated to correct the problem. We seem to have very high standards for say auto manufactors whenever there exists a problem. Why shouldn't a company who is pushing a electric consumer product be under the same scrutinty.

Bottom line, were are be bombarded with crap. Dell and there "bad" capacitors, Apples scratching nano screens, Sony's PSP and now Microsoft's overheating XBox 3-POS-0 powersupplies ... and this has been in the past 18 months.

Interesting enough the later three were suppose to be "big releases". And if these four "small underfunded" companies can not put quality products, who can?

I say sue them all. Teach them that pushing crap is not going to be had and if they continue to do it, they will have to continue to replace it.

Re:Fire

[tshak]

Bottom line, were are be bombarded with crap. Dell and there "bad" capacitors, Apples scratching nano screens, Sony's PSP and now Microsoft's overheating XBox 3-POS-0 powersupplies ... and this has been in the past 18 months.


Many of these cases have to do with user issues. Nano's are small enough to put in the same pocket as your keys, do you're scratching them more often - you didn't do this as much with your bigger iPods. XBox 360's are working fine in the vast, vast majority of cases. There maybe be a few faulty units, but for the most part it is well known that these power supplies are hot and can not be placed on thick carpet. I'm all for the improvement of quality overall, and to an extent I share your sentiment that we need demand higher quality as consumers. On the other hand there are tolerances for faulty units and these tolerances are fairly low. They seem to affect so many people because you don't have 900,000 artciles on how the XBox worked, you only have one or two about a few people who are having problems. Without some tolerance for lower quality we would be paying through the nose for these products. Maybe the bar needs to be raised a little, but I personally do not want to be paying $1200 for a military grade Nano.

Re:Fire

[jonfelder]

The XBoxes locking up has to do with their power supply overheating. Although I haven't heard of any incidents yet, this is indeed a hazard, and there SHOULD be a recall on the PSUs

You have no idea if this is a hazard or not. If the powersupply is the cause of the problem, they should be recalled regardless.

The fact that this is so widespread makes it obvious that they really rushed these out and didn't test them properly.

Yep...this is also why I'm not first in line electing to be a beta tester for the machine. Just about all of these systems have problems when released. The original xbox had a recall on the power adapter, the playstation overheats and warps, the PSP had a problem with faulty screens on launch.

Also, you can't just take it back to the store and get a new one, as there aren't any new ones to get.

I never said get a new one. I said return it to the store. That is, it's relatively easy to get a good degree of satisfaction, and then you wait until they get all the kinks worked out before you get another. If you want to keep it, Microsoft is fixing them...get it fixed. Either way, in the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal. It's a broken toy.

Comparing the xbox to a bridge collapsing or an airliner losing its wings is ridiculous, and that's really my original point.

Re:Fire

[j79]

From all the media coverage of Microsofts "overheating" 360, it's obvious what the issue is. YOU got a defective unit! That's right. Somehow, a unit which doesn't overheat slipped through Microsofts QA, and was sold to you. If I were you, I'd turn around and SUE Microsoft for not allowing you to enjoy trying to rig up the Power Supply with string, so it doesn't overheat. Heck, that could be the first game included in the box! A big ole Power Brick, and a 12" piece of thread. Can you get it off the ground? Will it stay?? WHO KNOWS!?!?!? :)

Re:Fire

[jacksonj04]

Aircraft and bridges don't just roll off a production line. Every single step from design to final production is quality tested, and then once the product is finished it is tested again.

Car engines are slightly different, relying on massively complex automated QA systems. What you must also take into account is the fact that car engines are specifically designed to have bits explode.

This is a games console. Hand-assembled, batch production, assembly line. If you have a bad component for an aircraft it won't pass QA, if you have a bad component for an engine it won't pass QA, if you have a bad microchip on a small part of a power controller which only shows the fault after running for at least 47 minutes at above 37.8°C then it won't be picked up because it's irrelevant. Recall the batch if a few of them show similar problems, otherwise just replace the unit.

Re:Fire

[Anonymous Coward]

"Try taking a bridge back to the store."

My Xbox burned it down on my way home :(

Re:Fire

[Aqua OS X]

I doubt it's a design flaw. It's probably a manufacturing defect that pertains to a batch of 360's.

I've seen stuff like this happen before when bringing products to market. In a nutshell you design something; do environmental testing, build prototypes, seed prototypes to developers; select some manufacturers; do a small manufacturing run; seed final hardware to developers / testers, etc.

However, if you don't watch your manufacturer(s) like a hawk, they might screw you. Perhaps they deviate from your spec at the last minute; perhaps they get in a pinch and decide to replace "good component A" with "shitty component B;" etc.

And the potential for f'k ups like these only increase once you start outsourcing your manufacturing to people halfway around the globe. Communication becomes an issue, and specs are commonly not adhered to as planned.

Microsoft has been fairly open about the development of this console. Prototypes have been out and about for quite sometime and they've been holding prerelease press events with finalized hardware. If this overheating problem was a major design flaw, it would've popped up already.

I bet if we were to crack open a "bad" power supply and a "good" power supply we'd see some different components.

Re:Fire

[sjames]

There maybe be a few faulty units, but for the most part it is well known that these power supplies are hot and can not be placed on thick carpet.

Well known to whom? The many parents out there whose kids wanted video games for Christmas? A household use power supply shouldn't get that hot, especially considering that a plush carpet is otherwise a great place to play games and the floor is a likely place for a power brick. How many pennies did they save on the heatsink and housing?

Apparently there's no warning about heat from the brick anywhere in the packaging.

When in doubt...

[w.p.richardson]

Find a lawyer!

Jeez, you would think that you could just unload the piece of junk on ebay.

Re:When in doubt...

[AuMatar]

Its called the warranty of merchantability. It basicly means that when you buy something, its supposed to do what its claimed to do, without known hazardous side effects. The Xbox360 may fail this due to the overheating.

Re:When in doubt...

[Gentlewhisper]

>Its called the warranty of merchantability. It basicly means that when you buy something, its supposed to do
>what its claimed to do, without known hazardous side effects. The Xbox360 may fail this due to the overheating.

Except the Xbox also ships with SOFTWARE, with the software there is a EULA that says there is no warranty or fitness of any kind given!

Re:When in doubt...

[syukton]

the person bought the Xbox with the expectation that this was a tested and a viable product from an established company.

The latter half of the statement is not true. This was not a tested product

Ah, but you are totally incorrect! The latter half of the statement is true. The device was tested thoroughly and the conclusion was that the device is not to be placed in an enclosed space or on a soft surface which will obstruct airflow. This information is in the manual. It's the consumer that isn't being tested thoroughly enough these days, the products are just fine.

See here:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/getstarted/syste m/xbox360/connect-positionconsole.htm

Prevent the Console from Overheating
Do not block any ventilation openings on the console or power supply. Do not place the console or power supply on a bed, sofa, or other soft surface that may block ventilation openings. Do not place the console or power supply in a confined space, such as a bookcase, rack, or stereo cabinet, unless the space is well ventilated.

Do not place the console or power supply near any heat sources, such as radiators, heat registers, stoves, or amplifiers.

The first time I got into this argument there weren't scans or PDFs of the manual available online, but it appears that now there are:
http://assets.xbox.com/en-us/support/na-console-fu ll.pdf

And lo and behold, on page three of the manual it says exactly what I quoted above. What we have here is a case of "dumb consumer" and not "bad product." If you don't read the manual and consequently use a device in a manner in which it is not intended, it's your own goddamn fault and not the fault of the manufacturer who tried to instruct you about the proper use of the console. Short of putting an ugly sticker on the console that says "Read the manual, dumbfuck!" what more can they do? They recognized the operating constraints of the console as a result of thorough testing and they notified the consumer of the limitations inherent in that design. If you read the manual and don't like what you read, return the product. Don't bitch and moan and sue because you can't use it in a way other than it's described in the manual.

Re:When in doubt...

[rob_squared]

"Except the Xbox also ships with SOFTWARE, with the software there is a EULA that says there is no warranty or fitness of any kind given!"

Except it's the hardware that's overheating. And I'd bet that kind of language won't fly in court. For example, there are prenup agreements that say the husband will get the kids by default in case of divorce, but the judge still gets to decide against that if he chooses. People leave their company for Google even though they sign noncompete clauses. Just because someone can say something in an EULA doesn't mean its enforcable.

It was only a matter of time.

[Spazntwich]

But it's going to set a dangerous precedent if this clown wins. He wants damages? With a defective product, the company isn't liable for anything beyond replacing it, unless there's some signed contract prior to purchase in which the manufacturer guarantees certain things.

Re:It was only a matter of time.

[ezberry]

It seems that ever since going to law school, all I see on Slashdot is people incorrectly claiming knowledge of the law. The parent is a good example.

The Second Restatement of Torts, Section 402A Special liability of seller of product for physical harm to user or consumer, states:
1)A seller of a product in a defective condition is liable if
  a) the seller's business is to sell that product, and
  b) it is expected to and does reach the consumer without modifications
2) Section 1 applies even though
  a) the seller has exercised all reasonable care, and
  b) the sure or consumer did not enter any contract with the seller.

This results in a situation of strict liability.
There is also an implied warranty of merchantability, as seen in Henningsen v. Bloomfield Motors, Inc. (NJ 1960, 671).
Further, this is not about to go away in the near future as the draft of the third restatement includes clause (see the section on products liability).

Responsibility

[Eohl]

I love that the submitter's comments seems to imply that it is somehow more noble for consumers to take the responsibility for defective products on themselves, as opposed to holding the manufacturer accountable.

Re:Responsibility

[Eohl]

Normally I'd agree with you 100%, I'm non fan of excessive litigation. The problem as I see it is that this seems to be an actual hardware defect...or at least a design defect. In any case it isn't something that would be fixable via a patch. A responsible company would recall defective hardware, which seems to be the main thrust of the lawsuit.

Re:Responsibility

[TheFlyingGoat]

The manufacturer should be responsible for fixing the problem, not paying damages and legal fees. If the man is awarded damages for some strange reason, every company that unknowingly releases a faulty product is going to get screwed. As a result, testing costs and corporate insurance costs will skyrocket and those costs will be passed on to you and me. Hope you look forward to paying 10-20% more for your next car.

Re:Responsibility

[Xugumad]

A responsible company would recall defective hardware, which seems to be the main thrust of the lawsuit.

I think the issue is that a lot of people are assuming every XBox 360 will have exactly the same heat output. This is fairly obviously not true - the CPU cores, GPU, and memory can vary in their heat output. The real problem seems to be Microsoft has been a little over-optimistic about what heat output maximum they'll accept. End result, they get a lot of returns, which is going to be costing them a fortune anyway.

If there's an issue with people following the instructions (don't put on carpet, leave space around it), it overheating and Microsoft not replacing it, okay, but this just sounds like the guy is hoping he can make himself some more money...

Re:Responsibility

[ucblockhead]

If the company is only responsible for fixing the problem, then there is little incentive to get it right the first time. If it's not much more expensive to release a broken product and fix it later, then it may well be in a company's best interest to release early (like before Christmas) and then fix things after the fact. (Especially since many customers won't get around to getting some of the problems fix.)

This is exactly what we see in software. Company's have little incentive to get it right the first time because they can just "release a patch". The result is that it becomes the norm for things to not work right when released.

If you want companies to make sure things work when released, you need to make it significantly more expensive to release something broken so that the free market rewards companies that take the time to make it work before releasing.

Re:Responsibility

[ch-chuck]

More nobel?

To sue, or not to sue: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The quirks and crashes of an overhot X-box,
Or to file suit against a sea of lawyers,
And by suing, correct it? To wait, to call;
To call: perchance to connect: ay, there's the rub;
For in that call to support what help may come
When we have shuffled off the automated attendant,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long wait;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of support,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Perhaps I should just
purchase a Playstation?

Re:Responsibility

[jellomizer]

I didn't RTFA but I think the issue is they guy went lawsuit crazy without giveing the supplier a chance to fix the problem. The problem with the legal system is that we hand out lawsuits First then ask politly later. The legal system doen't seem to take in account that we make mistakes and if asked we may fix them. Actually giving out law suits should be a final resort where all other means of negotation has failed.

Re:Responsibility

[timeOday]

The manufacturer should be responsible for fixing the problem, not paying damages and legal fees.

That's what I want to happen when I bounce a check:
"Oops, sorry, it was an accident. Here, I'll cut you another one."

Or when I return a rented movie late:
"Ooops. sorry, it was an accident. Here's you movie, no harm, foul?"

Or when I miss a credit card payment:
"Oops, sorry, it was an accident. Here's the money. You won't fine me or anything, will you?"

Man, I only wish I could slap companies with fines every time they screw me out of some time and inconvenience. Of course in the real world it only works the other way 'round.

Re:Responsibility

[everphilski]

Remember, in each of those situations the company in question is going out on a limb for you. When you bounced that check they fronted you the money. When you returned the movie late, you denied them a potential sale. When you paid your credit card late, you withheld money that was rightfully theirs. Your basically taking out a loan in each case; you signed an agreement and that's what you get...

-everphilski-

Re:Responsibility

[ScentCone]

What kind of wanker do you have to be to make the leap of logic from, "This Xbox sucks, I wish I hadn't bought it" to "This Xbox sucks, and microsoft owes me a million bucks"?

The kind that hates Microsoft for the usual semi-hypocritcal idealogical reasons (but really want to play the games) and are not-very-secretly delighted that an MS product has a problem. It's a chance to publicly whine about MS, paint them as somehow evil for not making a carpet-proof power supply, and to enter the lawsuit lottery. He's not expecting to actually win a lawsuit, he's just hoping for a settlement that will net him a few thousand bucks for being the squeeky wheel. Why he didn't just ask for his money back used to be beyond me, but juries of no-job-having-hate-The-Man idiots have been demonstrating again and again that (no matter how ill-conceived), any suit against a large company is a likely cash cow.

All of the poisonous anti-corporate/business rhetoric actually gets to some people and they begin to think that companies actually owe them something just for existing, and owe them a lot more if they are in any way inconvenienced. This is a cultural problem, made worse by a media-based celebration of victimhood and misfortune-as-fortune. The prevailing sense of entitlement is truly astonishing, and this is just another sorry example.

Of course, it also says a lot about the loser gamer involved that he had so much of his personal happiness tied up in whether or not he could run is XBox's power supply on the carpeting. Of course, that's BS - he's just reaching for cash.

Stop global whining before it's too late.

Re:Responsibility

[krunk4ever]

But you see, the company is recalling defective products:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420AP_WA_Xbox _Glitches.html

O'Donnell urged anyone with Xbox problems to call 1-800-4myXbox or go to http://www.xbox.com./ If the problems can't be immediately resolved, Microsoft will pay to ship the console overnight to a repair center, overnight it back once it's fixed, or ship a replacement.

"They'll be playing again in three to five days," O'Donnell said.

But I guess the 3-5 day delay wasn't worth it. Instead he's going to fight this matter over court which will take probably several months or even longer.

Re:Responsibility

[mrchaotica]

And when your Xbox breaks you're effectively giving Microsoft a loan, because they have your money and you have nothing in return for the amount of time it takes them to replace the system.

Re:Responsibility

[timeOday]

Remember, in each of those situations the company in question is going out on a limb for you.

Forking out $400 for an XBox 360 is going out on a limb. When I fork out $400 and get nothing (but a broken XBox) for 2 months, Microsoft is witholding money that is rightfully mine. All of this is going on the assumption that I eventually pay my bills and Microsoft eventually delivers a working product. If you can't see the symmetry of the situation, it just shows how indoctrinated you are.

Re:Responsibility

[ScentCone]

Corporations (especially MS) deserve all the poisonous rhetoric we can throw at them. Lucky for them since they are above the law that's pretty much all we can do to them. If my neighbor acted like your typical corporation they would be committed or jailed.

So, if you instead bought a brand new, high-tech entertainment appliance from the little one-man shop down the street (you know, where he hand-makes video game hardware from minerals that he mines and refines himself, and for which he writed all the software), and it was defective... what would you do? Perhaps, take it back and ask for your money back? Of course, the little video game shopkeeper would be happy to help out. Unless of course he died the night before... oh well.

So, how about if he takes on a partner to help him out? I know, that's evil, evil, evil. Because in order to make sure that their growing enterprise can interact with the bank they use to cash your check, and the vendors they use to help them with supplies, and to make sure that their operation can survive without them personally, and keep paying their employees (and their debts), etc... they incorporate. Good ideas and businesses often reach past the interests, attention, or even lifespan of those that start them.

they are above the law

What nonsense. Really, you should read the news at least once a year, perhaps. Even if you just do it long enough to follow up on the corporate executives that lose everything and go to jail for being fraudulant... or to understand that many companies can't make products (or sometimes, even stop making products) without fantastic government involvement. You might even want to check up on how well AT&T is doing, running all of the country's telecommunications... oh, wait. It's BS to compare a corporate entity (or a church, or a university, or a Boy Scout troop, or a non-profit eco-activist organization) to an individual because it's not an individual. It's a chartered organization subject to all sorts of laws, and sure as hell not above them.

We just want what we paid for and we expect it to work like they told us.

Or what? You'll just return your Xbox to Best Buy for a refund? Fine, because you can. What do you do when the produce you buy from the little farmer's market around the corner is defective? Do you try to put together a class action suit that will only make a bunch of lawyers rich? How about you just don't buy stuff from companies you don't like, and intelligently pursuade others to do the same (hint: better if you don't start out by actually lying about things, but more on that later).

lawsuits are the only tools we have left

Again: just don't give them your money. You know, just like people stopped giving money to AT&T's hardware people because they didn't like much like their products and business practices, and now Lucent is a pale shadow of its former self, with virtually no influence in the market... and better companies have lured away its customers. Vote with your wallet - you have choices.

no human being feels as much of a sense of entitlement as a corporation does

Never actually worked for or with a larger company, have you? The struggle to compete with other companies to make better, cheaper, or different products is instense. Every day is a fight to make sure that they don't lose customers, and instead find more. Just what do you think a corporation is? Right now, I'm working in a company of about 300 people. There's no sense of entitlement, not among the management, the investors, or us worker bees. Every meeting, every customer interaction, every hunk of software we write or web site we operate - all of it is a scramble to make sure we are offering something better than what our competition delivers. Do we set up offices where the locations make the most sense (in terms of space costs, tax rates, etc)? Yes. Just like everyone does, business or personal.

This is one thing I don't like about this country

[the_humeister]

Anyone can sue anyone else no matter how stupid it is, and there won't be any repurcussions except more money for the lawyers. What we really need is some system in place where the loser pays to further discourage stupid lawsuits.

I think there's some sci-fi book where the loser and his lawyer dies. That might work too, but I don't think most people would go for that.

Why not just return the thing?

[aflat362]

If you aren't happy with the 360 why not just take it back? Why does everything have to resort to a law suit?

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Money.

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Gr33nNight]

I guess it depends on circumstance. If I just walked into a store, got a 360 and took it home and it didnt work, sure I would return it. But if I waited in line 6 hours, fought customers just to purchase a broken item for my kid who is crying, then if I called Microsoft and got the run around, hell yeah I would sue. Of course I dont have the whole story, so he could just be wanted to cash in.

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Dr. Eggman]

Because the objective is to make money while playing your XBox 360.

Bonus points if you burn down the courthouse during a demonstration!

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[SA3Steve]

So you would sue because you had to wait in line and decided to fight with other customers? Should you sue Best Buy then or wherever you bought it from? How about the customers who decided to start fighting? Did you spill some coffee during this fight? You could probably sue for that.

If I purchases an XBox 360 and it wasn't working, I'd be pissed...and I'd call Microsoft and demand a replacement. If they rejected that, I'd put a stop order on the credit card payment or I'd just return it to the store. Is this guy sueing for emotional damanges or something pathetic like that?

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[pilybaby]

Why does everything have to resort to a law suit?

Easy. Greed and money.... oh and it often works.

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Ced_Ex]

I guess it depends on circumstance. If I just walked into a store, got a 360 and took it home and it didnt work, sure I would return it. But if I waited in line 6 hours, fought customers just to purchase a broken item for my kid who is crying, then if I called Microsoft and got the run around, hell yeah I would sue. Of course I dont have the whole story, so he could just be wanted to cash in.

Maybe those kids are spoiled and should be brought up not to whine and cry because they don't always get what they want.

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Gulthek]

You would sue out of annoyance? You would be understanding if someone sued out of annoyance?

It would take severe bodily harm resulting from normal, advertised use of the product to get me to sue.

Like, if, the XBox 360 randomly rockets forward out of the entertainment center at my head. Or if the controllers spiked your hands, or emitted powerful electric shocks. Something, you know, that's actually serious.

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Chirs]

"If you spill hot coffee on yourself, it's the store's fault g-darnit!"

While I like a good story as much as the next person, in the case of McDonald's coffee it actually is true that they were serving their coffee substantially (20 degrees or so) hotter than most other places.

The woman required skin grafts and a week-long hospital stay, and McDonalds refused to pay the medical bills, which was why she sued them. The jury awarded punitive damages of $2.7M (or about 2days worth of coffee sales), the judge dropped it down to a bit under half a million on appeal.

Three years after the lawsuit, McDonalds was still selling coffee at the same temperature, and a 73yr-old lady suffered first degree burns from a similar incident.

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Aadain2001]

Returning a broken product should always be the first action a consumer takes. But in this case, the XBox 360 was first produced in a limited quantity and then released in an even smaller amount to retailers. That means that MS artifically made them scarse in order to drive up apparent demand and value of the produce.

Now imagine waiting in line for a produce that you shouldn't have to wait in line for (think of McDonalds only making 10 Big Macs at each location every day, first come first served) and then think about that product not working. Not only can you not return it to the store for replacement (they are all sold out and will be for the next month), but the manufacturer cannot even replace the devices (don't know this for sure, but I wouldn't be suprised if MS doesn't have enough units in stock to replace all the faulty ones). So now you are stuck with a broken product and no way of fixing the situation because the manufacturer intentionally screwed you over (limit roll out, artifical inflation of value, etc). You would be pretty damn mad, just like everyone else in your position.

I haven't RTFA, but this guy is probably suing out of anger (I would be angry, I can tell you that), and probably from the promptings of a lawyer who can see a quick cash settlement or a possible class action lawsuit with an even bigger payout for him/his firm.

What defect?

[Anonymous Coward]

The X-Box is working perfectly fine ... in fact I'm posting this from my X-Box's web br*%$#)$%&({@{($*#){[NO CARRIER]

oh they have...

[axonal]

"...others have sought less litigious solutions."

Oh they have

don't do this!!

[akhomerun]

come on people! you know that by suing microsoft for admitting mistakes, you are only going to encourage them to cover up future problems instead of addressing them!

Re:now way

[Twisted64]

Bill, is that you?

while I am not a fan of our "sue-happy" society...

[GReaToaK_2000]

I think it is about time someone took a stand against companies pumping shit out to the customer before it is ready. Especially since it is obvious this was done to beat the Xmas season...

In addition, I don't like the way it was posted... "a Chicago man who was lucky enough to purchase an Xbox 360"... OH PLEASE!!!! "lucky enough" You make out to be some amazing thing... It's JUST a GAME BOX!!! Hello!!!

WoW!! When playing games is THAT important life must be truly sad.

Re:fp?

[ylsul]

Actually, I'm glad I didn't rush out and invest that kind of cash on the 360. I can't remember, but I don't seem to recall any horrible defects reported when the N64, PS2 or Dreamcast came out. Could this be because of the haste for hype and market penetration?

To Paraphrase:

[DoctorPepper]

"You smell that? Do you smell that?... litigation, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of litigation in the morning."

Software Beta, Hardware Beta

[fembots]

First iPod Nano then Xbox 360.

Am I seeing a commercial trend where hardware companies are increasing confident to roll out their products even if they are not thoroughly tested, simply because these companies know they have enough fanboys to buy anything they sell?

It's also interesting to see that these hardware companies are also software companies, who are regularly rolling out "beta" software to the public.

Class Action

[ehaggis]

Unfortunately it is a class action lawsuit. The individual(s) will recieve a $1.25 check 10 years from now while the lawyers rack up $400/hr fees. Microsoft will issue a non-mea-culpa and continue life as usual, short $100 million, a drop in the bucket.

The Manual

[TubeSteak]

Robert Byers, who brought the suit, said the power supply and central processing unit in the Xbox 360 overheat, affecting heat-sensitive chips and causing the console to lock up.

I'm guessing he didn't RTFM. It tells you where not to put your Xbox (carpets, enclosed spaces, etc.)

Is it a design defect if you're specifically told what the 'problem' is and how to avoid it?

FYI I'm not talking about chainsaws that can accidentally cut your face off, more like a car owners manual that says "keep your radiator topped off or else your engine will overheat." Or in this case, don't put your Xbox in certain places, or it will overheat.

Re:The Manual

[riceboy50]

Liability aside, in order to make a well-designed product, one must take the user experience into account. Not to mention, I doubt the 360 has a big yellow label that says "WARNING! This product may crash if you use it on carpet or in your entertainment center." Companies who work under the "how can we release this product earlier/cheaper by cutting corners and putting it in the manual" paradigm are bad for the industry and deserve to receive some flak. P.S. What the hell is "commense sense"? If you're going to flame someone's post, at least check your wording.

Re:The Manual

[Xarius]

I'm guessing he didn't RTFM. It tells you where not to put your Xbox (carpets, enclosed spaces, etc.)
Or in this case, don't put your Xbox in certain places, or it will overheat.

Wow, so we're not allowed to put our consoles on the floor in front of the television, or in the entertainment center?

That's pretty fucking awful product design.

Re:The Manual

[aaronl]

The XBox 360 is a piece of consumer entertainment electronics. If you buy a DVD player, VCR, Nintendo, Playstation, TV, etc, you can put them in your entertainment center. People have been able to place all of their game consoles on carpet in the past. It is, in fact, expected that a game console can do this, since most people are not going to want to buy a pedestal for their XBox just so that the controllers reach and so that they can swap games easily.

It *is* a flaw in a piece of consumer entertainment electronics to not be able to do this. The product was poorly designed, and that's the problem here. If I bought a new device for my TV, and *then* found out that the design prevents me from using it the same as all my other devices, I would be quite upset. While I wouldn't sue, I *would* return it and not risk a similar experience with another of that vendor's products.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "the law" and everything to do with common usage. If you put a new car on the market, and neglect to tell people that you have to use this special gasoline that you can only get from the dealer, and if you don't, your car might catch fire, but you print this in the manual, you will very likely be sued in a class-action suit. This is because *your* version of the product works differently than every other product of that type, and requires special consideration, but you did not disclose this up front. These sorts of suits happen quite often. Hell, in the case of the car, you would likely be found liable criminally for that design, and there would very likely be heavy fines and a complete recall involved.

The issue is made much worse, since MS basically hid the flaw from customers until after they'd purchased the product. At least you can return an XBox once you find out the design is poor.

Another example of requiring this sort of disclosure up front is drug advertising. If you're marketing a new drug that alleviates allergies, for example, you have to disclose the side effects up front. People do not expect to take a drug and have it give them a heart attack. If you tell them that it could do that in a passage tucked inside of a manual, you open yourself up to lawsuits. You can't expect that most of your customers will read the manual.

I would prefer it to simply be good business practice and that's that. However, everyone has the *right* to sue anyone they want for whatever reason they want.

Re:The Manual

[aaronl]

You had to buy it to read the manual. It is a defect that was made known to the purchaser after the fact. It *is* a defect, because it causes the product to not work properly, nor work like any of the other products of the same type, nor work the way most customers would want to use it. The manufacturer knew about the defect, but chose to not disclose it before you made the purchase.

The lawsuit is inappropriate, but this is the clearest way to make manufacturers learn to not make and sell sub-standard products.

Re:fp?

[Conor Turton]

Oh the PS2 had plenty optical drive issues. The PS2 still has issues. The slimline ones don't work with some older games.

MS Should Just Recall

[TheFlyingGoat]

If Microsoft just recalls all of the power adapters (which seem to be most of the issue), and replaces them with a different design that allows airflow underneath, they can basically stop this lawsuit and any others that are bound to come up. The other option would be to provide a free plastic base to all XBox360 owners that would snap on the bottom of the system and raise it up an inch from the surface.

People who sue over this stuff are worse than companies that unknowingly release a faulty product. There are better resolutions than calling a lawyer, like returning the system, waiting on a recall, or hacking it up with a string.

The perfect exchange

[AutopsyReport]

So in exchange for an overheating and crashing Xbox 360, he will be facing the wrath of an overheating Balmer (sweaty armpits, soaked forehead) and his crashing chairs in the courtroom? :)

This is getting ridiculous

[crass751]

Have things really gotten to the point when everytime we don't like a product we sue the manufacturer? What happened to the days when if a product wasn't what we expected it to be we simply told our friends not to buy one and didn't buy from that manufacturer again? Are companies required to produce products that every single person in the world likes otherwise be victims of a lawsuit? Are standard defects valid causes for suits? We (well Slashdot population) all know that no process is 100% defect free, even a 6 sigma process still has 3.4 defects per million opportunities. Are we that litigious? How long before someone sues a restaurant because their steak was medium instead of medium rare?

This is absolutely insane.

Re:This is getting ridiculous

[bigbadwlf]

This is absolutely insane.

No offense, but that's what we Canadians have long thought of the American practise of constantly suing the pants off of one another.
Our courts will not allow whiners and crybabys to waste the court's time like this.

Reminds Me of...

[Private.Tucker]

The SNES that melted down when someone plugged in their new copy of Super Metroid and tried to play it. On the other hand, I think it was BBSpot.com that best said it when "Microsoft (was) bridging the gap between Consoles and PC's" when they released the 360 Crash edition.

Ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see how there could be any grounds for a case. There certainly is no way that this guy can demonstrate that Microsoft hasn't been acting in good faith with customers or that there's been any sort of cover up. The Xbox360 has been out barely a week.

Not to mention that the first generation of anything often has problems. This certainly isn't unique to Microsoft. This is what happens when consumers crap themselves over something new and have to be the first ones to get it. They get screwed waiting in long lines, paying more than they should and having a potentially defective unit on top of all that.

Anyone with a little sense would wait a few months until those initial problems were addressed and then waltz into any store and choose from one of the dozens of unclaimed units sitting there on the shelves.

Not that I'd ever waste money on an Xbox360, or a PS3 or a Revolution for that matter. They should all stop screwing around and just start developing for the PC directly, because thats what those consoles are turning into anyway.

I suppose someone always has to be an early adopter, and they're the ones who are going to encounter the problems first, and it's because of them that these problems are discovered. However, if you can't get rid of the ants in your pants then you'd better learn to deal with the consequences. Too bad you cant sue someone for stupidity.

The Man?

[gatekeep]

The man is seeking unspecified damages, litigation expenses, and replacement or recall of all Xbox 360s.

Why is that 'The Man' always has to ruin it for us?

Extreme Measures

[SerpentBlade2100]

While suing M$ is probably a very extreme thing to do, he does raise a very valid point on defective merchandise. If you take a look at the polls released on most XBox sites they all seem to be asking the same question: "Is your 360 FUBAR?". The numbers that come back are showing 1 in 5 360s have a problem. I'm not sure what numbers M$ has over there at the QA Help Desk, but if they are regarding 20% as a "very, very small fraction" then such a matter should be taken to the public. They are playing down what is apparently a huge problem, but then this is in line with most M$ product releases. Just look at Windows ME, maybe in comparison 20% IS a "very, very small fraction". Meanwhile we can rest assure that both Sony and the Big-N are kicking back laughing at the XBox 360's release problems and polishing their systems properly.

Oh please

[radish]

You get bad units, it happens with any products. Microsoft are replacing all units which exhibit any fault, for example overheating. They overnight you an empty box, you put the defective unit in and overnight it back, then they overnight you a new unit. Total time elapsed: less than a week, total cost to you: zero dollars. That's better than most return policies in my experience. So far MS have been saying that the return rate is around 3%, which is below industry average. So again - what's the problem here? A company produced a product which has lower than average failure rates and is happily and rapidly replacing any defective units for free.

This guy doesn't wany justice, he wants free money. He's a greedy ass and should be brought to book for encouraging this insane litagation culture to feed his own pocket.

And the last thing I want is a recall - mine is working perfectly.

Re:Oh please

[utexaspunk]

I seem to remember a German friend of mine telling me that, in Germany, punitive damages are not awarded to the victim but instead go to some sort of general fund. It seems we could use something like that here to help keep the frivolous lawsuits down.

Re:Oh please

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that sounds great on paper and over the phone... until that overnight empty box still hasn't arrived after 7 business days.

It's even better when you called after 3 days of waiting and a supervisor tells you it's actually not overnight and you'll just have to wait.

I just hope my replacement is on the way before all the units waiting for christmas power-up clog up MS support even more.

At least Geometry Wars doesn't freeze mine. ;)

Re:Oh please

[buffer-overflowed]

Ok, then I'll ignore every last internet post saying the 360 is fine and go by the major news media.

Massively defective.

NEXT.

Re:Oh please

[burningion]

Microsoft has released a faulty product. They chose to rush to market and be the first, and they ended up with an inferior product. They must refund everyone's money who bought a product which didn't perform as they said it would. Simple as that.

Getting litigous is the only way to make sure Microsoft does not take advantage of consumers by selling products which do not perform as advertised. With their market share and their financial resources they ought to be able to make a functioning product. Not an overpriced POS paperweight.

The four hundred dollars for an xbox 360 is a whole lot of money and a whole lot of work for the average customer. They should get their money's worth, it's only fair.

Re:Was it necessary to rush?

[Mr. Grimm]

Do you think you can cram more dollar $ign$ into that $entence. I really don't know how $trongly your feeling$ are for M$. Or i$ it that perhap$ your keyboard broken and it'$ the only letter that look$ like an $.

Behold the fury of M$ Rage! Hahahahaha!

And there goe$ my $light po$itive karma I had built up.

If you think making the loser pay is a good idea..

[CyberLord Seven]

then try this on for size.
The RIAA takes you to court, pays outrageous legal fees (which they can afford), files for extensions, appeals and whatever until you run out of money and can no longer defend yourself.
Then you lose.
Now you have your legal fees, plus theirs!
Do you still think making the loser pay all legal fees is a good idea?

Well, no...

[Quiet_Desperation]

C'mon, people. Will you never learn? What happened was a lawyer needed a new 12 person hot tub in his winter palace^H^H^H^H^H^H home, so he found a mark ("a man" in this story). If the case is won, the lawyer gets his hot tub and the man gets a $5 off coupon for an MSCE manual or something.

Why would you buy a machine with a $99 return poli

[thpdg]

Why would you buy a machine with a $99 return policy?
From what I've heard on other sites discussing the power pack problem, the warranty requires you to submit a $99 payment with the system when attempting to receive repair or replacement.
WHY would someone buy a product with such lousy coverage??

Re:Was it necessary to rush?

[Unequivocal]

This might have been true for the original XBox, but the XBox 360 is based on a "Trusted Computing" model which appears to be pretty hard to hack. It includes hardware based security to ensure that nothing which hasn't been signed/approved by Microsoft will run on the box. There are efforts to hack the thing but success has not been seen yet. I wouldn't count on a lot of help from "hackers" in fixing problems with this device. It looks like for the foreseeable future, it's MS or no one..

This isn't the way to do it though

[Sycraft-fu]

The way to hold a manufacturer accountable for a new product taht doesn't work as advertised is to take it back. If you buy something that is supposed to work one way, and it doesn't, take it back and get something else (or do without).

Lawsuits should only be for cases where a failure developes out of warantee that is systemic, and the manufacturer refuses to fix the problem. For example a bunch of Canon cameras receantly had failures due to bad CCDs. They were out of warantee, but it was a defect in all of them, thus they were fixing them for free. Had they not, that would have been an appropriate situation for a lawsuit.

This is just a money grab, nothing more. A videogame console is not a necessity of any kind, and even if you bought it opening day you are still well within the return period. Just take it back, and tell them why.

Interesting thing about the single lawsuit

[PepeGSay]

If you can get the single lawsuit to go forward, they may be able to legally compell Microsoft to say how many reports of malfunctions they have had. Then, they figure out the size of the class action lawsuit and really go for the throat. That basic strategy is used more than you might think.

And

[Sycraft-fu]

That's for a non-critical item. That's better service than we get on some computers here at work, and those are at least somewhat important. A console is entertainment only. If this was a life support device, yes lawsuit. If this was a critical server, maybe. A game console? Hell no. If the company is offering less than a week turn around on reparis, I'd say you have nothing to whine about. You can either accept that, or simply take the unit back (all units are less than 30 days old).

Talk about a lot of fuss over an entertainment device.

As much as I hate Microsoft

[xutopia]

Suing every chance you get is silly. Especially since MS is replacing all defective 360s at no charge with express shipping.

I think there are too many lawyers in the world.

others have sought less litigious solutions.

[frovingslosh]

Sure, you should try "fixing" your new $400 device (plus the cost of feeding it) with string. Of course, this will likely void your warranty, and when the damn thing kills someone or burns your house or entire appartment complex down Microsoft can point to what you did as the cause. Or maybe you could just ask Microsoft nicely and share the pure joy in the laughter of their response.

Re:This is one thing I don't like about this count

[OakDragon]

This is one thing I don't like about this country... Anyone can sue anyone else no matter how stupid it is

* spills coffee in lap *

God Bless America!

What's a defect?

[YesIAmAScript]

Now, I know some are just plain defective. That'll happen when you ship hundreds of thousands. There might even be more defective units than would normally be expected. That could happen to, due to manufacturing difficulties.

But a design defect? I just don't know if we're there.

I know it gets hot http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=169465&cid=141 24290

But it gets hot because it does so much. Its regular level of consumption is 160W. That's a lot, and it all turns into heat. Despite this, the Xbox 360 has a great cooling system. It really keeps itself cool.

But, like all devices, a cooling system just moves the heat somewhere else, in this case ouside the case. So if you put it in a confied area or block the vents, it will be unable to cool itself. There is NOTHING MS can do about this.

Perhaps you'd like Xbox to take less power (PS2 uses 50W). I can understand that. But it's not going to happen. PS3 will be the same. These super-capable game machines are pushing the limits of technology and so they use a lot of power and generate a lot of heat.

So, lawsuit aside, when you evaluate your problems with 360, make sure you're not expecting MS to defy the laws of thermodynamics.

BTW, I got together an EXECELLENT cooling system for my 360 in my stereo/video game cabinet now. I'm considering writing it up. Costs a fair bit, but instead of 116F inside there with the front panel cracked an inch, now it gets to 78F (67F ambient in the room) in there with the front panel completely closed. It's so much quieter now.

Liability and suing

[aepervius]

Actually as far as I understand you can be liable for a product you manifacture & sell if either 1) it has knowingly a default 2) it does not respect the local norm/standard 3) it does not work as described in the manual/package (please notice that I do not say it does not work as adverstised!). Liability can involve depending on the country from replacement of the unit, partial or complete refund and in the most extreme case, recall or even severe fine and damage (mostly in case of default endangering a life).

Now this US situation is this : you can sue ANYBODY. Naturally a judge might throw your claim out, or even kick you out of the court for contempt, your claim might not even go beyond a first hearing or whatnot. Suing does not guarantee you have a claim, it only means you THINK you have a claim. See for example each year the tax protester suing the federal governement (NONE get beyond the judge throwing the claim out or even laughing and in one documented case calling the claimant a fool). So in that case, since a solution already exists (replacement of the unit) then the lawsuit won't probably go very far. That is, unless he can prove 1) that he can't get a replacement or a refund from MS/reseller or/and 2) the overheating unit involve a life risk and/or already damaged a person and/or possessions(items).

Why is everyone blaming the victim ?

[Chaffar]

I'm pretty shocked to see the number of posts that are actually calling the guy who bought the 360 an idiot 'cause he should "raise it one inch from the floor". I mean come on, the fact is that he was sold a lemon, and an expensive one too. The XBox 360 has a major problem, one that is VERY HARD to believe that it was overseen by the team of engineers, playtesters etc... Unless testing today means, turning the machine on, checking if left=left, the start button works, and the controller works after dropping it twice on the floor.

So the guy is wrong in suing MS, maybe. But somewhere I hope this will make the major manufacturers avoid selling crap they haven't properly tested first. [The following sentence is not flamebait so please] If they can actually sell a console that overheats in less than 20 minutes without knowing of the problem, it's scary to think how they handled their OS design, where flaws are less visible but can be just as bad.

Re:while I am not a fan of our "sue-happy" society

[KDR_11k]

OH PLEASE!!!! "lucky enough" You make out to be some amazing thing... It's JUST a GAME BOX!!! Hello!!!

Correction: It's a game box that sells for a few hundred bucks over retail price on eBay. It's an investment.

Re:If you think making the loser pay is a good ide

[thesandtiger]

If someone brings suit, and loses, and is deemed, in the eyes of the judge (or some group of judges, or some other body) to have filed a stupid lawsuit, then I think yes, they should have to pay.

In the case above, the RIAA could bring suit, but the person *being sued* would not be liable for any legal expenses but their own (unless they agree otherwise in the settlement) - RIAA would be on the hook for it.

If I take an action and that action is injurious to others AND "stupid" (whatever that means) then I should be responsible. But if I take no action - if someone else sues me over something "stupid" - then I shouldn't be responsible as I didn't initiate anything.

Granted, all of this hinges on what's "stupid" - on the surface, many lawsuits sound phenomenally stupid - hell, you can spin anything to make it sound stupid - Roe v. Wade, Miranda, whatever, pick any piece of landmark adjudication and if you give it a /. style summary it'll sound stupid. So it very well may be that it would cost more in time and effort to determine what is in fact stupid and what is just being made to seem stupid. (And the reverse is also true - many things that are absurd can be made to sound quite reasonable if you choose your terms carefully.)

Anyway - my thought is that this particular lawsuit is pretty silly for several reasons:

1) Microsoft is actually trying to address the problem. Why sue someone when they're already taking what actions they can to fix a problem?

2) It's a game console. What "damages" could there possibly have been? I have not heard a single report of houses burning down or any kind of *real* damage from this. Loss of play time is not, in my opinion, a damage.

3) Forced recalls - why, exactly? Many people *aren't* having problems. The ones who *aren't* having problems have no need to send their units in (and probably just wouldn't comply with a recall). People who *are* having problems will be getting their units replaced. What, exactly, would a recall do that isn't already being done? Shame them or something?

It just doesn't make *any* sense to me. If MS were to have said "Hey, fuck you - caveat emptor and all that shit" then yeah, sue em. But they sound like they're being pretty reasonable about how they're handling the problem, so again, what's the point? Lawsuits are there to force actions when the appropriate action isn't being taken, which is not the case here. (Or doesn't seem to be)

Absurd

[XMilkProject]

I find this utterly absurd, and upsetting too.... This is what our country is coming too? You just get to sue anyone you want to and try to get rich?

To be completely honest, I don't care if his xbox is freezing up from overheating, I don't recall microsoft promising that the xbox would not overheat, and there have yet to be any cases of the system starting a fire or some such thing, so If its not dangerous, then there is no legal case.

Every time someone bought a computer that overheated and shut down they could sue the computer company for damages? At the most, you deserve a new system, or to get yours repaired, and thats it.

I'll also add, that in my opinion, all the cases of xbox overheats are cuased by end-users that are not smart enough to keep it in a well ventilated place. It is an incredibly powerful computer dissipating several hundred watts of power. It is simply impossible for it to work in a closed cabinet, or if the power supply is set behind it wherein the xbox draws in hot air.

Sorry to go on a rant, and I'm not defending consumer electronics companies that send out flakey hardware, but you took a risk on buying one of the first units off the shelf, and regardless of whether or not it works you have no right to file litigation against the company. Get a refund for your box, i'm sure they'll be happy to give you one, and thats all.

Failing Units

[everphilski]

... run about 3% and are being replaced for free; please read http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170258&c id=14188093 and shut up...

-everphilski-

Re:Failing Units

[malelder]

I don't have a white paper or anything to point too, but a friend of mine is a manager of a game store in Phoenix, Arizona. I asked him if they had any 360's left, and he said "Nope, sold every one in the opening weekend." So, snickering, I asked how many were returned as defective. "None," he replied. "Not a single return in the entire southwest region in fact."

Where are your statistics to prove the previous poster is wrong? To chastise the poster about not having any facts, then not providing any of your own is pretty lame. To then imply in your post that the problem with the 360 is that it "can get hot enough to start a fire", when noone, not even the guy in the article, has had such a thing happen, is even worse.

I don't care what your opinion of Microsoft as a company is...they have been replacing any defective devices. They say there haven't been many of those, and even if we all think they are evil and lying their asses off, the fact that a chunk sold from a certain region of the US haven't had any issues shows that this isn't as nearly a big deal as certain media outlets wish it were. This at most is an issue of a certain batch of power supplies having problems. I'd be curious to see a map of where the complaints are coming from now, and see if its isolated to a certain shipment.

It isn't just you; there's a ton of people out there who want to see MS burn, but this isn't the incident that will bring them down. By replacing defective devices as soon as they are reported, MS is showing a willingness to help those who ended up with busted 360's. Kind of hard to push a lawsuit against the company, when the first question any lawyer would ask is, "Well, did you call and get a new, working power supply?" When the guy replies, "Uh..no. I just wanted to sue them instead and make a bundle of cash," the judge is gonna bang that gavel, and say "Case closed!" And Microsoft wins another one.

Microsoft *IS* replacing defective hardware...

[everphilski]

Please read.... http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170258&c id=14188093 ...

-everphilski-

Why I never became a millionaire...

[Lispy]

Well, there is this friend of mine who is well, waay adipose and chronically out of a job.
This guy spent four days in front of his classic Xbox only stopping the game when his wrist had a fracture.
Man, if only I'd live in the United states and not in germany we would have gotten rich together. I would have made this a case to remember:

"Look at that sad man, no love, no job, no perspective and your freakin' large controller even ruined his gaming experience!". But well, in germany this gets you nowhere....
Looks like I gotta look for another way to cash in on other peoples misery... Any ideas welcome! ;)

Let's be fair!

[mister_llah]

A friend of mine made a post on our IRL pals forum that I thought I'd share...

"""
Lets be fair here - i'm no fanboy, but even I have to admit its not just Microsoft.

Sega Genisis - Crashes games

SNES - at launch batteries were being drained faster from cartidge then supposed to (not sure what this means)

N64 - At launch wouldn't read some cartridges

PSOne - Wouldn't read some games, laser would lways fall out of alignment, and system would overheat

Dreamcast - Overheating

PS2 - Scratch the hell out of people's DVD Movies as well as some games, majority of systems at launch would overheat

XBox - Overheating problems on some systems

XBox 360 - CPU not functional, overheating, scratching disks
"""

Re:Let's be fair!

[grumbel]

Gamecubes had a tilted eject button, it was still working, but didn't really look very pretty.

Hardware Defects

[Straif]

Unless you were personally holding the defective power unit when it overheated, thereby causing 2nd or 3rd degree burns, not be able to play with your new toy for a week or two is not grounds for emotional stress or pain and suffering.

I've had to deal with the microsoft hardware department a couple times myself for my mouse (plus a few times for work but I'll keep the corporate support seperate). Because of the way the cable was fed into the mouse it had a nasty habit of breaking the wires and causing the mouse to behave irratically. Both times I called them they sent me a brand new mouse, free of charge, and never asked for the old one back. The last times I even got one of the newer styles and haven't had a problem since. I've never had a hassle from them and never once thought about a lawsuit. From the sounds of it, their XBox support is about the same.

Anyone aware of the XBox or PS history should know that by buying the systems on the release date they are just asking for trouble. Best to wait for revision 2 or 3 to come around. Thats being said, I haven't heard the same about Nintendo and depending on price I will probably buy a Revolution as soon as it's out, but I also wouldn't be too upset if something like this happened then.

When you buy leading edge tech, you've essentially signed up to be unpaid testers. A lot of problems can only be discovered when you move from a few hundred test machines in controlled environments to thousands of machines out in the wild.

Glitch or Design Flaw???

[FerretFrottage]

Microsoft sued over alleged Xbox 360 glitch [headline]
"A Chicago man who bought Microsoft Corp.'s new
Xbox 360 has sued the world's largest software maker, saying the new video game console has a design flaw that causes it to overheat and freeze up...."

My car has a glitch/design flaw as well. If I start it and leave the keys in the ignition and then get out of my car and lock the doors, I can't get back into my car without modding my car's window or calling in "experts" (legally registered tax paying business, or the type registered by the sheriff's department).

I have a 360 and it does run hot....they need to have proper ventilation, probably more so than any other computer or A/V component I've ever owned. I'm not sure how well the manual states this as I never read them (hey this is /., who reads manuals), but if you take a 360 a stuff in a location that doesn't have good air flow then I'm not surprised the unit is crashing. FWIW, I have mine in an open AV rack that has plenty of ventilation and I've had the thing on for over straight hours at one point and it didn't crash on me. Not all that time was playing games--the last 2+ hours of was playing it and MCE 2005, but when you can justify the purchase to the wife by streaming HD pr0n onto the HDTV, it's worth the time.

Now was it wise of MS/partners to design it this way (to run as hot as it does and require so much ventilation)? Who knows what their design specs say. But just image taking your tower PC, shrinking by a factor of 4-5 times and then cranking up the CPU/GPU full throttle and think about how much heat would be generated. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but owners of some of the new high powered high tech toys may need to be educated on how well this ptoys work as a space heater.

A bit ironic

[satsujin]

I know that this will be modded down, but, seriously, I find it really ironic that just because MS has made something that ./ers like, suddenly a majority of posters think they shouldn't be held accountable for outputting crap.

If this were any other Microsoft product, everyone would be supporting this guy/joining the suit/boycotting Microsoft.

sigh..

Re:A bit ironic

[Xarius]

everyone would be supporting this guy/joining the suit/boycotting Microsoft

No see, we're boycotting Sony at the moment. We can't boycott them both without being hypocrites, we want at least one console...

</sarcasm>

Sweet.

[twofidyKidd]

The George Foreman Grill: XBox 360 Edition. Fraggin' and fryin' galore.

Re:Sweet.

[MC Negro]

It knocks the fat out... in high-definition.

Re:This is one thing I don't like about this count

[Saige]

Well, if you spill coffee you bought in your lap, and end up in the hospital for a couple weeks while they treat you for third-degree burns, and the place you bought the coffee from had repeatedly been warned that they were serving coffee that was too hot for human consumption when it was received by the customer, perhaps you'd have a lawsuit.

Anyone who claims that lawsuit was stupid doesn't know what the lawsuit was about.

Self inflicted?

[MoonBuggy]

Yes, these lawsuits are stupid, but there are two things to consider here (speaking in general, I don't know the specifics of this case, but I can say that this person _deserves_ no more than a replacement Xbox and maybe $100 or a few free games to make up for missing out on the launch day fun. What they'll ask for/get is, I'm sure, another matter): firstly, if any of us can make a significant amount of money from doing very little work - why not? The system's broken anyway, others are exploiting it, so maybe we shouldn't be so hard on these people for joining in. If someone told you that you could have $1000000 for nothing except exploiting a system that's getting fucked over anyway, would you really be that bad for taking it?

That leads to my second point: whose fault is it that the legal and social structures are fucked (i.e. a judge doesn't throw out ridiculous cases _and_ a jury sides with these people)? Could it be the big evil corporations that tell people what to think? I honestly don't know, but the likes of Sony, MS, McDs etc. who generally get hit by these lawsuits are all partially responsible for the state of the 'developed' world anyway.

Maybe I'm feeling extra cynical today, but it just looks to me like the system's screwed anyway, so just make the most of it. Corporations are the epitome of selfishness, and many people are going the same way. Perhaps it's time to give up and go with the flow, because I'm losing sight of any other way to 'win' here.

Re:Self inflicted?

[damsa]

Most comsumer products class actions, you end up with some coupon which is not really worth much. The persons that win are the lawyers.

Re:Self inflicted?

[CardiganKiller]

Exactly, the system is screwed. I think the real basis for the screwy system is central to the word "hype". Corporations create it, people buy into it. A post further down the line states that normally, when something is bought and found defective, you return it, no big deal. But then he states that suing is justified when he waited six hours in line to get it and got the runaround from Microsoft. Well what is Microsoft going to do, mail you the parts and tools to fix it? There is nothing to do. It's a defective unit, you do the same thing as if you hadn't waited in line for 6 hours. You wait until new units come in and return yours. This is the problem with people buying into corporate hype over a product. I don't see anything wrong with waiting in line overnight, but don't start whining anymore when it breaks than if you just went to the store and picked one up on a whim. You are the one who couldn't WAIT to have the toy. You are essentially blaming Microsoft for infusing you with their hype over this shiny new toy. Be a little grown up about it and return it for a full refund and wait for other systems, or replace it when you can.

This is just the "spend spend spend" society hard at work. "Xbox360" comes out! OMG HAVE TO HAVE IT!!!111 I bought an original X-Box at the beginning of this summer. I've gotten my money's worth of entertainment and then some. The thing is how old? I'm careful with how I spend my money, and I'm patient about purchasing something. The end result is that I'm satisified with the product and I usually get my money's worth. This hype drivel is pushing people to buy as quick as they can and corporations to release the product as quick as they can. MORE MORE MORE!!! Once the hype goes away, the product stabilizes, the price goes down... and Joe Schmoes like me get one and have a good time with it. Sheesh. You kids and your toys.

Bullshit

[everphilski]

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170258&c id=14188093

-everphilski-

Re:If you think making the loser pay is a good ide

[StikyPad]

Right. Pay-your-own-fees means people can't afford to win, and loser-pays means they can't afford to lose.

The solution, obviously, is to make lawyers work for free.

DAMN DUPLICATES!

[IchBinEinPenguin]

This was posted before!
oops... my bad. Not a dupe, that one was about the old XBox.........

XBox 911

[this great guy]

Xbox Burn your house down edition.

Conveniently nicknamed XBox 911.

Statistics and Liars

[TheDarkSavant]

She declined to say how many reports Microsoft had received and said that calls reporting the issue to the company represented a "very, very small fraction" of units sold.

Because the majority of units sold were bought to be resold on Ebay and haven't been played yet.

Sad example of society

[seabreezemm]

It sickens me to see the morally ignorant champion the cause of the unjust and wicked. It seems that the younger generation lacks any back bone at all for what's good and correct in the world. More and more often I see a sub 30s something argue in favor of stealing, cheating, lying and even murder. This is downfall of our modern society and the doom of our future unless we that know what is good and just stand and fight for those things we know to be correct. This is more than simply an Xbox that over heats this is about a company that knowingly has stolen from the public more than once and continues to do so as a business model. Microsoft was well aware that the Xbox was prone to overheating I assure you. They may not have found out till close to the release date and decided to roll the dice that more consumers would simply roll over and take the inferior and broken product rather than protest it. It would have cost MS far more to simply correct the problem and delay release than to see how many would actually return the ill designed units for repairs. Law suits sadly are the only way to force large companies to do what is right since they refuse to do it on their own so file away and let them suffer the pains of lost profits until they learn the lesson of honest business practices and good customer relations. For those that continue to argue in favor of the theft of my hard earned money I say shame on you.

The masses?

[WndrBr3d]

I think the general issue here is you're putting an environmentally sensetive device in the hands of the masses, and as I'm sure 90% of the IT professionals here that have served tech support can tell you, the masses are flaming idiots.

The XBox360 itself does run very hot. Mine I keep in an open AV cabinet with plenty of ventilation and I keep the PSU in a cool area as well. The XBox360 itself is pretty much a super-charged PC in a space 1/10th a standard PC's size. So of course it's going to run hot, and people should take the proper measures.

The design of the XBox360 was one that had to meet a few goals.

1) Had to look cool
2) Had to be smaller or as small as original XBox
3) Had to have adequate cooling WHILE not producing excessive noise from fans and other cooling elements

So Microsoft had to compromise on #3. They had to have the fans run quiet enough so people wouldn't yell, "OMG, ITS TOO LOUD!".. yet have them run fast enough where people wouldn't yell "OMG, MY XBOX IS OVERHEATING NO MATTER WHAT!"

With any manufactured device, there are going to be failures, be it mechanical failure or failure due to the manufacturing process. I'm sure if someone wrote CNN every time one of their Hard Drives died, or every time they got a bad pixel on an LCD, you'd see many other CONSUMER ALERTS for MASS HARDWARE FAILURE, but you don't. Because we've all been using computers long enough to know that with anything, sometimes you just get a bum device and have to get a new one.

Why is the XBox360 different from other computer devices? Well, as I see it, two reasons:

Reason #1 -- It's Microsoft, easy target for hate from some people.
Reason #2 -- There's nothing we can do. The reason Intel doesn't get sued because their CPU's run too hot, is because as consumers we can crack open our case and swap out the cooling with a solution that better fits our needs. Unfortunately, we cannot do this with the XBox360 because there are no alternatives to the cooling and it would void your warranty.

What are we to do?

Well, personally, I haven't had a single issue with the Xbox360 that was worth even getting on the phone over. It has locked up twice, but this isn't the first time in my 24 years that a console game as locked up on me. I recall RC Pro-AM locking up on level 98 and almost having a stroke.

For those of you having issues, explore every option in making sure it's in the proper environment before immediately pointing to hardware defect. If this still doesn't work, just call Microsoft and open up an RMA. Their process takes no more than 4 days before you'll have a new Xbox360 in your hot little hands.

Will an Engineer speak up?

[GruntboyX]

Ok, after about 2 weeks of this i have had about enough. As an Electrical Engineer i am furious that geeks everywhere are irate about power supply issues. Now correct me if i am wrong but isn't it standard practice to give electronic components plenty of ventilation. I mean i knew this when i was little. I use to put clothes on top of my component stero because it was convient. Low and Behold months later the stereo become hot and died. Didnt take a Genius to figure out what the cooling slots were for. Dont all you geeks run zalman coolers on your processors, and create water cooled wind tunnels for your computers! I mean did you expect a 3.2Ghz processor to just consume a measly 100mw ? We shove 500 W power supplies in our computers and still complain about not having enough power. Nvidia and ATI require extra 12V power connectors because they chew so much. yet we didn't go on a suing band wagon when pc's crashed because they overstressed power supplies.

Now about the PSU. yes it shouldn't overheat, but as it is becoming obvious there are various suppliers and other distributors of this psu. Wouldn't it be reasonable to suspect that the design was fine in testing but a batch of bad parts is the cause and not the design itself! You geeks kill me. As soon as something crashes you criticize it because it doesn't run linux or some OSS software. Then you go on a tirade about the design being flawed and if you were the engineer you would have considered such things. As an engineer i have seen products fail hundreds of times not because the design is flawed, but because some part distributor supplied a bad batch of parts. In a power supply it just takes one diode or a bad inductor or even a faulty cap, and then you get motorboating and unstable voltages, and guess what happens when that occurs. Yes you guessed it lots of HEAT! And that assumes if the device even powers on.

Now this doesn't absolve Microsoft from responsibility. They still need to replace the faulty units / or power supplies. However, this doesn't warrant a lawsuit. Especially when the manual warns you to place in a ventilated area. I am sick and tired of companies getting sued because end users are not reading the frickin manual!

Re:Will an Engineer speak up?

[esspee]

Toy - that stigma was dropped long ago and most people now recognize the video game industy is larger than the motion picture industy. The 360 cost $400+ when you start adding extra controllers and games. The average game player is 30 years old and has been playing games for 9.5 years. If I turned my DVD player on its side while it was playing a disc I WOUDLN'T be suprised if something unnatural happened to that disc or the player. DVD players can stack thanks to their shape and feet but read the manuals and you'll find spacific instuctions not to place them on carpet or an area that would cause the vents to be covered. gloom and doom STORIES/RUMORS are exactly what they are. As we see more facts coming in and not just a bunch of Internet chicken-littles we are now hearing a more realistic 3% are having issues (and this still doesn't take into account how many returns and reports there have been based on user error). You can't idiot proof something no matter how many years you put into its design.

Re:fp?

[fyngyrz]

1. We know how to manage considerably more heat than the 360 has to deal with. Fact.

2. Many of the problems are with the cord tumor overheating, not the 360. Fact.

3. We know how to manage considerably more heat than the cord tumor has to deal with. Fact.

4. There are optical drives that won't sign their names in deep crevasses if you tilt them. MS knew about the problem prior to shipping, it's discussed in the docs. They knew that XBoxen were going to get placed on tables, floors, and in the process, get knocked over. It's a product with HUGE appeal for kids and teenagers, for Pete's sake. It would have been fairly trivial to make them robust enough to survive, and picking a drive that wouldn't eat your $50-at-a-pop media when orientation is changed in the most gentle fashion imaginable isn't exactly rocket science, either.

As an engineer, I see this primarily as blindly grasping at form and fumbling function as a direct consequence. I don't think it is excusable; I don't have a problem with requiring reasonable vent space on the main unit, but having to hang the cord tumor by string... that's way, way, way over the top. Can you imagine trying to use one of these in an apartment without air conditioning? Probably set the bloody building on fire. :/

I'm really glad I waited. I have five to buy — three sons, one for me, one for the lady of the house — I think MS really impregnated the canine, here. We'll see what batch #2 looks like. In the meantime, XBox1 will do.

And BTW... All of our PS2's are original launch units -- and they're all still working fine.

While I think the suit itself is dumb

[Solr_Flare]

This issues does deserve to have some attention called to it. Not just the power supply heating problem though, but other design defects/flaws/bad choices that really just shouldn't be there in a $400 piece of equipment.

The major issues with the X-box 360 seem to be:

1) The power supply can overheat. It seems most often this is due to poor placement of the power supply. Still, no mention is made anywhere about this problem. So what happens when your average Joe Shmoe consumer or kid gets their Xbox 360 and runs into this problem or sets their carpet on fire because they aren't told in the packaging of a design flaw?

2) Some Xbox 360's just outright have crashing problems not related to the power supply. This seems to be more the case of first batch of a new generation hardware defects. These happen all the time and can't be helped. And when you ahve a low supply like the 360 has, these tend to be more glaring than they really are. This is just an issue of replacing the system for a non-defective one. It stinks, but it happens.

3) Moving the 360 from a horizontal to vertical position, or vice versa, while a disc is spinning will result in serious disc scratching. Now, we're all tech guys so this is sort of no-duh to us. I mean all our PC's and similar hardware all are mostly the same way for that style of drive loading. That said, again it is a case of your average Joe probably won't realize this. I mean the unit is advertised as being equally useful in both a vertical and horizontal position. Sooner or later some dude is going to either accidentally knock the xbox into horizontal position, or move his 360 while in a game and ruin a game disc. Accidents happen, but Microsoft, again, has not advertised that this can even happen. So design choice, flaw, or what have you, it's still their problem.

Again, I think the suit is dumb and either some guy is going after cash or he or someone who paid him has an anti-microsoft agenda. But that doesn't change the fact that the issues are there and MS at the very least needs to make a more concerted effort to at least tell it's consumers what isn't recommended to do to avoid these things happen. That's just common sense business ethics right there.

Did you actually think about this?

[AlgoRhythm]

Since when is it cheaper to produce a flawed product and then fix it rather than producing a product that works the first time?

Didn't you just lose money fixing the problem that could have been avoided in the first place?

Hardware repairs are not so cheap as a simple software patch that can be posted online and downloaded ... nowhere NEAR as cheap. Like, so dissimilar as to be a laughable analogy if you didn't seem so serious about it.

You don't even consider the damage to a company's reputation which, though Microsoft is disdained amongst geeks, most consumer's expect quality from.

Set the tents back up in the Target parking lot

[fozman]

Considering most of the hardcore-types spent the entire evening in the bitter cold in some Target parking lot waiting to get theirs first, maybe they should just set the tents back up and Mother Nature keep their systems from bursting into flame... ... or maybe they should set the tents up in Redmond... I'm collecting overheating stories at http://www.xboxoverheating.com/ for anybody who has one to share.