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Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star

smooth wombat writes "NASAs Spitzer Space Telescope has detected the basic organic building blocks of life in a ring orbiting in the 'habitable zone', that area where Earth orbits the Sun and where water exists on the borderline between gas and liquid, in a nearby stellar nursery. When acetylene and hydrogen cyanide combine with water they form adenine, one of the four bases of DNA. The detection supports the widely held theory that many of the molecular building blocks of life were present in the solar system even before planets formed, thus assisting the initial formation of complex organic molecules and the start of life itself." Though it was a little shakier than this observation, we've discussed the possibility of life elsewhere in the galaxy before.

366 comments

  1. Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by gowen · · Score: 5, Funny

    What, you mean concrete evidence of an Intelligent Designer?

    Love,
    Kansas Board of Education

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    1. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by ahsile · · Score: 5, Funny

      I do believe there is evidence of "His Noodly Appendages" visible from Earth.

    2. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      NASAs Spitzer Space Telescope has detected the basic organic building blocks of life in a ring orbiting in the 'habitable zone'

      Nope. In fact, they've found the ringworld.

      Yeah yeah, its unstable -- but only when those goddamn insane puppeteers are nearby.

    3. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by InfiniteWisdom · · Score: 4, Funny

      The correct spelling is Kansas Board of "Education"

    4. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      Can't believe the parent was modded as Flamebait. It was funny as all hell.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    5. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 3, Funny

      Kansas Bord of Edyookashun

    6. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Golias · · Score: 1

      Can't believe the parent was modded as Flamebait. It was funny as all hell.

      You must piss yourself from laughter every time somebody posts an "In Soviet Russia" joke.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    7. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by TexVex · · Score: 1

      No, it's the smoke ring!

      --
      Fun with Anagarams! LADS HOST, SHALT DOS. HAS DOLTS. AD SLOTHS, HATS SOLD. ASS HO, LTD.
    8. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Viper+Daimao · · Score: 2, Informative

      The best argument I've read for both Intelligent Design and Evolution are from Scott Adams the writer of Dilbert.

      --
      "In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
    9. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by jdbartlett · · Score: 2, Funny

      Other spelling variations found in KBE literature: - "Kansas" "Board" of "Education" - Kansas Board of Education. Honest. - Kansas, Bored with Education - Kansas Mod of Education - Kansas Board of Holy Education - The Lord's Board

    10. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Cerberus7 · · Score: 1

      It is funny, but it's also flamebait. It just depends on your perspective.

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    11. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Among the "ways of knowing", Science, with DNA as its totem pole, can only tell us so much. In other words, there are limits to what we can know with Science. Beyond those limits lie questions such as these: What was "before" the big bang? Why are we here? Why are Java developers so insufferable?

      Like in open source, capitalism, and other human endeavours, Choice and the freedom to choose is a good thing. Enter religion: a free open-source alternative to other "ways of knowing." Whereas science can only provide the "how", religion picks up the slack and provides the "why" where other methods for discovering knowledge fall short.

      Fundamental theists and atheists would do well to not blindly discredit other epistemological methods. If we can all get along and lay down the weaponry of this culture war going on right now in our courts, schools, and government, we could finally begin to approach real problems, like Man's Greatest Question: Were the dinosaurs killed off on purpose to allow humans to purple monkey dishwasher?

    12. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by syd2000 · · Score: 1

      Relevant link needed.

    13. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Golias · · Score: 4, Funny

      The debate between ID and anti-ID zealots doesn't really interest me all that much, but every time the "flying spaghetti monster" argument gets invoked, I get really hungry for pasta.

      Is that just me?

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    14. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by ozydingo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Funny thing is, whenever I ask a "why" question, regarding the origins of life, God's intentions, etc, to one who professes that religion contains all the answers, the answer I typically get when my questions get deep enough is always along the lines of "we cannot profess to know or understand the motive of God and His infinite wisdom; for to do so would be to place ourselves on His level. We must only have faith in His divine plan." Doesn't seem to answer much of anything, in my opinion.

      42 purple monkey dishwashers!

    15. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Yocto+Yotta · · Score: 1

      And here, for your enjoyment, is a new Wired article with our great leader, Bobby Henderson, God/Pirate Incarnate. Merry Christmas!

      Get it? I'm so funny.

      --
      A B A C A B B
    16. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Glog · · Score: 1

      I fixed it for you:
      Kansas Bored of Education

    17. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's amazing the things some people will say to try to make peace.

      "Why can't God have created evolution?"
      Complete ignorance of certain naturalistic and theistic positions.

      "Science asks how, religion asks why."
      Religion's questions are however met with no answers.

      "Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between."
      False compromise.

      "Darwin's Origin of Species is a rape-fantasy fulfillment manual."
      Patently untrue.

    18. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by RealProgrammer · · Score: 1
      The correct spelling is Kansas Board of "Education"
      --
      If you can't make your case without name-calling, labelling or profanity, you've automatically lost the argument

      Am I the only one who sees the irony of posting that with that sig?

      While it didn't name-call, did't label, and wasn't profane, there was no attempt at making an argument.

      Still, it was funny.

      --
      sigs, as if you care.
    19. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Religion provides a made-up "why" by assuming an anthromorphic made-up "person whose will is why". I believe the open source analogy is actually the other way around: religion is the closed-source "here's how it is and this is the answer and be a good sheeple and don't ask questions" M$ organization where science is in principle the peer-reviewed, open source, verify results for yourself.

      Why presume that there are things that science not only doesn't know, but can't? Who's to say that in the future it will always be impossible for us to figure out what was before the Big Bang? As we know it now, no, we don't know what may have been before, but that's why we continue on attempting to discover and learn. We may end up discovering some as-of-yet unknown fundamental principle of reality that illuminates the very questions that we think are unanswerable. Or that quantum mechanics only appears random and probablistic because we currently lack the ability to probe where we need to be able to figure it out, but in the future we may discover how to do it. Making up an answer of "God did it and that's all we need to know so stop asking" helps exactly nothing.

      Live long and prosper.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    20. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 0

      Who's to say that in the future it will always be impossible for us to figure out what was before the Big Bang?

      Not to mention the possibility that the question itself has no meaning (that there is no such things as "before the big bang")

    21. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 2, Funny

      Support the Kansas Public Schools!
      Our Motto: Ignorance is Relative

    22. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 1

      I must say the last one is unusual. Where did you hear that?

    23. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Stop it, stop it, stop it!

      Milk just shot out my nose!

    24. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by InfiniteWisdom · · Score: 1

      There's no irony, you fucking commie bastard.

    25. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by geekoid · · Score: 2

      " The debate between ID and anti-ID zealots doesn't really interest me all that much"

      it should interest you, because it is bad science. regardless of your beliefs.

      "Is that just me?"
      no, now I want some pasta with red sauce...I'm going to lunch.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    26. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by CrazyDuke · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, I found this interesting:

      Incompetent Design

      Something tells me this is how the creationists will handle this:

      When confronted with something that works and is complex:
      "See, proof of Intelligent Design!"

      When confronted with something obviously "designed" badly:
      "We can't comprehend the will of 'the designer.'" ...or: "It's because of the (insert group they hate) are angering 'the designer!'" (usually for desasters, plagues, cancer, birth defects, etc...)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
    27. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by hesiod · · Score: 1

      > > "Darwin's Origin of Species is a rape-fantasy fulfillment manual"
      > I must say the last one is unusual

      I think the idea behind that is a bastardization of "Survival of the fittest." Survival means extending your lineage which, in nature, could mean that the strongest "rape" the females of their species to continue. That's just off the top of my head, I don't know if that's an actually-used argument or not, I've certainly never heard it.

    28. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by hesiod · · Score: 1

      > Enter religion: a free open-source alternative to other "ways of knowing."

      Not necessarily. Scientology is "proprietary." Of course, I don't believe it's actually a religion, but that is just my opinion.

    29. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Knetzar · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I have a science question no one has ever answered. If the universe was created by the big bang, where did all that matter and energy originally come from?
      It seems to be the same question as, "Where did did the inteligent designer come from?"

    30. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by RealProgrammer · · Score: 1
      There's no irony, you fucking commie bastard

      Ah, now you're finally starting to put together a chain of reasoning.

      --
      sigs, as if you care.
    31. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Okay I made that last one up. It was a total non sequitur. I'm a bad person.

      I got the idea from someone else using rape metaphors when analyzing Newton's work:
      link

    32. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Jo+Owen · · Score: 1

      You are making the mistake of thinking that by 'nothing', people mean a whole lot of empty space, but they dont, they mean not anything, including dimentional space.

      It didn't come from anywhere, the big bang was the start. before the start there wasn't an empty space, there wasnt blackness, it just wasnt anything because the start is the start.

    33. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you might want to read bhagavad gita as it is by AC bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada. i was in your position and that helped answer some questions.

    34. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by 9Nails · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but you're searching for an origin to the Universe. Searching for what that something is that put all these atoms and heat in the void of space. Unfortunately, there is no single bit of evidence that the Universe was created. There is only evidence that it exists. It's expanding, yes. But we still don't know what that means either.

      Intelligent Design came from thought. If humans didn't think, there would have never been such ideas as Intelligent Design.

    35. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by LithiumX · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the possibility that the question itself has no meaning (that there is no such things as "before the big bang")

      That's the part that I think gets most people. It seems the majority of people view the Big Bang as being a literal explosion that occured in an indeterminate location, is expanding to fill space, and occured at a particular point in time (and by default existed as something else before then).

      The BB WAS the expansion of space AND time. Space, as a concept, has no meaning except after the incident. Time, likewise, has no meaning until the incident.

      If you started with this moment, and tracked it back through the years, centuries, millenia, and eons, would get closer and closer to the BB (or whatever happened). If the BB theory is at all correct, you could track it all the way back to the "moment of creation", but no further... because that would have been when time began to exist.

      People who ponder "where" the big bang occured do not understand the theory. People who ponder about before the big bang likewise do not understand the theory.

      --
      Do not confuse "Freedom of Choice" with "Free Will".
    36. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by LithiumX · · Score: 1

      You haven't lost the argument until you make a nazi reference.

      Godwin's Law is a powerful thing.

      --
      Do not confuse "Freedom of Choice" with "Free Will".
    37. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Knetzar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Okay, so what's wrong with the argument that some god (or gods) always existed and that god (or gods) created the universe?

      Therefore a deity could be an intelligent designer of the universe. I don't see any more or less proof for that then the big bang theory

      Disclaimer: I do not believe in a supreme being.

    38. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      Last time I checked the question of where the stuff of the big bang came from had no answer, and many scientists were not sure if it was a question that science could answer with current technology. That is one of the differences between science and dogma - science seeks the truth while dogma proclaims the truth. Science is not afraid to say I don't know, or I was wrong.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    39. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by master_p · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it is amazing that these people "can not know or understand the motive of God", but they can understand that they can not understand the motive of God.

      How one is supposed to know what to understand or not, if he/she does not know what the thing to understand is about?

    40. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Bob3141592 · · Score: 1

      The debate between ID and anti-ID zealots doesn't really interest me all that much, but every time the "flying spaghetti monster" argument gets invoked, I get really hungry for pasta.

      Is that with the sacred red sauce, or the heretical alfredo?

      --
      In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
    41. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nothing is "wrong" with this arguement. The argmuement is falls outside the boundries of science (unscientific), however, because the exist of supernatural entities us unfalsifable.

      The possibility of gods existing is not concidered by science since the question is one of religeon or philosohpy, not science.

    42. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Jamu · · Score: 1

      The universe is, by definition, the whole deal. There is nothing else. The universe therefore can have no cause.

      --
      Who ordered that?
    43. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      Thank you, finally someone explained it to me.

    44. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On a forum like slashdot, it is almost fashionable to be anti-religion. Now, I am not saying (or believe that) theories like ID deserve to be taken on equal footing with Evolution or even with any seriousness. But as someone that has spent a good amount of time reading philosophy (mostly Hindu, but Buddhist and even Christian is similar at some levels) I can say there's much more to it than the slashdot echo chamber would lead one to believe. Spend some time to understand what they are saying before you debunk anything. Have you spent even 1/100th the time trying to read philosophy (the foundation of religion)...please do if you can. And, I am not equating the institution of religion (the churches/muslim ummah or whatever) with the philosophy. Read the upanishads, and your questions regarding the big bang (science's guess at the beginning) and what existed before may be answered among other questions of life which science doesn't even begin to address. Science's realm is only the physical.

    45. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry about my gross misspellings...

    46. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Golias · · Score: 1

      it should interest you, because it is bad science. regardless of your beliefs.

      My belief is that discussing bad science isn't very interesting. I also believe that pasta tastes good. It's a simple creed, but it works for me.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    47. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by iamlucky13 · · Score: 1
      The universe is the way it is because if it were any other way, we would not be here to observe it as such.
      Not that the anthropic principle* is all that great of an answer, either, but hey, flame on!

      Seriously, neither atheism nor agnosticism gives us the answer to life, the universe, or everything. To say you don't understand a concept is neither a theological nor a scientific argument. And for the record, I'm not a fan of teaching intelligent design in schools either, because the purpose science classes is science (based on observation, etc), and because attempting to boil down religious beliefs into something deliberately politically correct ultimately leaves them empty and open for nonsense like the tumbling linguini minion or whatever the name of the joke is.
    48. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "why" is picked up by philosophy without religious bias. Religions are nothing but popular myths which have been used by people in power to unite and conquer, which is redundent now that countries have gotten so large and in time they will all be commonly thought of as myths like the ancient greek gods.

    49. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it works a little like galaxies. Universe explodes, eventually condenses into a massive black hole, becomes unstable explodes creating all new dimensions and matter.

    50. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by BigGerman · · Score: 1
      Or a relevant road sign:

      Welcome to Kansas - Evolution stops here.

      (Disclaimer: I too beleive that evolution is just a theory)

    51. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Myuu · · Score: 1

      Certianly, but at the moment those that try to compromise religious doctrine to science are not at all the problem that we need to deal with. For now I have no problem with people that think a deity created the foundation of life, or even those that think Humans are special. My problem is with biblical literalists.

      --

      forget it.
    52. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      The "why" is picked up by philosophy without religious bias. Religions are nothing but popular myths which have been used by people in power to unite and conquer, which is redundent now that countries have gotten so large and in time they will all be commonly thought of as myths like the ancient greek gods.

      If religion is dying, then why is church attendance booming in many parts of the world? Consider the growth of the so-called megachurches in America, or the incredible activity of the global south. And instead of dismissing traditional religion as nonsense and moving beyond it, many economically secure and educated Westerners are getting into neo-pagan traditions like Wicca which has its own very complex mythology. Religion is in no way dying.

    53. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For those who don't know, Bhagavad-Gita as it is is the handbook of the Hare Krishnas, that sect of ill-repute that is already infamous in the West for breaking up families and social lives and reducing its members to mindlessness. And while the Bhagavad-Gita (part of the enormous Indian work Mahabharata) is a classic work of great elegance and a pearl of Sanskrit literature, Swami Prabhupada's translation departs greatly from any original meaning in the text, selectively wording passages so that they agree with his own peculiar views. I'd certainly recommend reading the BG, but only in a non-sectarian version that stays faithful to only what the text says. There's one published by Penguin Books in Great Britain and North America that is okay.

    54. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Luyseyal · · Score: 1
      I believe that is the work of His Holy Pasta Phantom. As it is written in the Book of Recipes, Chapter 7, Verse 11:
      That all may know Him, He has sent his Holy Phantom to palpate the soules of Men.
      Of course the Holy Phantom is one with the spaghetti of our most Holy Monster, however, it acts of its own accord, noodling away as He sees fit.

      -l

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    55. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by PriceIke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why are some people incapable of believing that the universe could be infinite in both "directions" of time--that is, capable of always having existed--and then turn around and in the same breath be capable of believing that a noncorporeal, intelligent and benevolent entity could?

      Not saying you are such a person. Just that this obvious disconnect of reason baffles me.

      --
      It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
    56. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by IdleTime · · Score: 1

      So, basically you are saying that between time 0 and 2^-43 s after the BB, matter simply started to exist, i.e. the matter involved in BB arose from nothing to a finite amount in that timneframe?

      I still have quite a few issues with the BB theory, things like extremly high redshifts, 2 cosmic interconnected objects with different redshifts, the Great Attractor, The Great Wall (and other walls), 1 billion lightyear big galaxies can not have formed in the time since BB since they would only have had time to do 2-3 rotations. There is a lot of disconnected information out there that starts to question both the age of the universe and the Big Bang. And can someone explain how colliding galaxies are not a problem for an inflationary universe?

      --
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    57. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by PriceIke · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ramen!

      --
      It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
    58. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      And that's exactly what bothers me.

      Why are some people incapable of believing that a noncorporeal, intelligent and benevolent entity could be infinite in both "directions" of time--that is, capable of always having existed--and then turn around and in the same breath be capable of believing that the universe could?

      Not saying you are such a person. Just that this obvious disconnect of reason baffles me.

    59. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by jZnat · · Score: 1

      The only scientific subject I know of that might prove (or strongly suggest) the presence of some omniscient or external God is the study of quantum gravity. An idea related to it is that the chances that all our mathematical constants (the ones used in physics, e.g. Planck's constant, the speed of light, the charge of an electron) are exactly what they are in the form that they can support matter's existance is extraordinarily slim. Combine that with the chances of the Earth coming to form the way it perfectly did, and you have yourself a near-infinite improbability...

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    60. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Redwin · · Score: 1

      Or is a statement? Kansas, Bored of Education.

      --
      Warning, comments may not have been passed by the sanity department of my brain.
    61. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by poopdeville · · Score: 1
      (Disclaimer: I too beleive that evolution is just a theory)

      Great. So do most scientists. Do you have a plausible, testable alternative? No? Then sit down and let the science men do their jobs.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    62. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Poltras · · Score: 1
      Where does that god comes from then? Even in the possibility of a supreme being has created our race, that being are still submitted to the same laws (or different ones, but that doesn't disprove my point) than us, therefore must have evolved somehow, or created by an ever more supreme being, going through that same question. Whatever started it, it must have been started by something else, right? Can we say that God existed all the way and created the universe? If we can have faith in it, cannot we have faith that the universe existed all the way? Or that if the universe created itself from nothing, then God might also have been created from nothing?

      The faith one put in this supreme being can be redirected to science. At this point in the questioning of the existance of life, I don't think we can really distinguish religion from science, for we don't have any answer to either questions, and both are as valuable because they are totally unknown. We have facts about the big bang, but what happened before is still faith.

    63. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      Where did all the matter and energy come from then? Even in the possibility of a big bang created our universe, that point of matter/energy is still submitted to the same laws (or different ones, but that doesn't disprove my point) than the current universe, therefore must have already existed or been created from other matter/energy, going through that same question. Whatever started it, it must have been started by something else, right?

      Just because a theory has a part that's unexplained, does not discount the theory. You said yourself, "We have facts about the big bang, but what happened before is still faith."

    64. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Combine that with the chances of the Earth coming to form the way it perfectly did, and you have yourself a near-infinite improbability...

      Wow, lucky us.

    65. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Hyperx_Man · · Score: 1

      Don't discount intelligent design. Evolution = intelligent design. I teach ID at University of Chicago, and there are many levels to ID that co-exist with evolution.

    66. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Poltras · · Score: 1
      I regarded both theories with a sceptic eye. Sorry if I didn't put the wording correctly toward the little amount of objectivity I can have. As one, I don't believe in God (or whatever supreme being), although I know we have no proof it doesn't exist (or may not be as we think... or even maybe the musulmans are right! even though we pray the same god, maybe christians don't act correctly towards it).

      My point was that creationism cannot explain its own creation, falling in its own theory into the same category as science. If we take both theories in consideration, creationism MUST have gone through another theory (evolution or another creationism or something else?) thus making itself recursive, while evolution doesn't need such an explanation. Both being as valid, it comes down to faith. And thus I call Occam's Razor, because creationism is a multiple (see point above :P).

      Remember for the sake of this discussion, that what we call reality is (philosophically) only a certain ammount of information shared between a mass of beings. Up to some centuries ago, what was reality is now believed as religion by the majority of human beings, although yet to be disproven. If we account that single fact, we are not even sure that what we believe is true now might not be disproven or regarded differently enough in the next centuries to be considered as religion (or an historical farce).

      Beside, creationism is religion (I don't know how someone would consider that otherwise), being true or not, by definition. If the educational system wants not to teach religion, therefore it shouldn't permit to teach creationism as much as it shouldn't permit to teach christianism. Teaching the facts is another matter. See the teaching of religion history in French schools for examples of how this is permitted and should be done (theorically please, because French teachers are not yet able to be objective, but in the long term should tend to it).

      Have I been clear enough? :)

    67. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by SamSim · · Score: 1

      It's a sign, man.

    68. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I've heard it's called a "personal revelation". Supposedly something which you cannot put into words, so unless you have one, you really won't understand. Quite convenient.

    69. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Hockney+Twang · · Score: 1

      Looks like I'm one of several people with a trite response. Oh well, here goes: The answer is nowhere near as important as the question. The (noble, socially meaningful, and oft-overlooked)purpose of religion is to ask why, not to tell you why. See the difference? Consider those simple Zen-like questions people love to ask; about the sound of one hand clapping, and whatnot. No one really cares what that sound is, thinking about it is the whole point.

    70. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      If religion is dying, then why is church attendance booming in many parts of the world?

      Because in the human circumstance fear, ignorance, and wishful thinking are built in, while courage, knowledge and pragmatism are difficult to develop, integrate and build onto.

      Religion is the easy antidote to fear; the gentle road away from honest inquiry; the very milk and honey of wishful thinking.

      Life continually confronts us with the unpleasant in the form of death, suffering, inequity, inability to overcome forces much larger than we are in both the social and physical senses, that most people simply cannot marshall the intellectual resources required to look these challenges in the eye and march onwards regardless. Instead, they cleave to hope-impregnated stories of an all-powerful entity in the sky watching over them, promises that it'll all work out in the end if they'll just do this, or that, or the other.

      Science, in sharp contrast, requires intellectual honesty, and the better at it you are, the more you will have to hew to that line. Religion is the polar opposite. Claims — or presumptions — without a single objective fact to back them up form the very foundation of religious thought.

      Science will always take its most effective adherents from those people who have a stronger element of curiosity than they do of fear, while being willing to admit that there are things they will almost certainly never know — and that's acceptable to them.

      Religion doesn't describe something "outside" the physical universe. It doesn't describe anything at all. It is not theory. It is not history. It is not anything outside our imaginations.

      In light of the above, my prediction is that religion will not recede from society until, or unless, a significant improvement in mental quality can be obtained in the general population. No beneficial technology, no depth of reach into the cosmos, no collation of knowledge seems likely, to me, to stand in for such an improvement. Remember: Religion does not rely upon, or often even give lip service to, objective fact. This implies that no matter what you do in the real world, you will not resolve the problem. Only superior thinking abilities can do that, and that seems to require a significant improvement in mental quality. Barring unanticipated drug discoveries and outright genetic manipulation, I expect religion will be with us for a long, long time.

      That in no way makes it a "good thing."

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    71. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      Okay, so with evolution we believe that mammals came from simpler creatures, that came from other creatures, that eventually came from single celled organisms. Those single celled organisms came from random proteins combining and this continues until we reach something as small as atoms. Where did they come from? Well, they came from quarks, or energy, but where did those come from?

      All I'm trying to say is that both evolution and ID fail when we look back far enough.

      Personally I believe in evolution and do not believe in a god, but I do think that people need to be willing to discuss all possible holes of both theories.

    72. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Religion is the easy antidote to fear; the gentle road away from honest inquiry

      Nonsense. There is plenty of honest inquiry in religion. Have you not read anything by Richard Swinburne or Alvin Platinga? They have shown for thirty years that the Christian religion is defensible through reason. I'd recommend Swinburne's Responsibility and Atonement (Oxford University Press, 1990) or The Resurrection of God Incarnate (Oxford University Press, 2003). Christians do not run away from philosophical inquiry, but rather they marvel that so much of what they find in inquiry only confirms basical theistic propositions.

    73. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Poltras · · Score: 1
      Personally I believe in evolution and do not believe in a god, but I do think that people need to be willing to discuss all possible holes of both theories.

      Though those holes won't be filled in our lifetimes, or even in the lifetime of humanity. Therefore, it is up to everyone of us to either accept the fact that we don't know (unfortunately impossible for many of us) or that it is a "leap of faith" to try to find an explanation [whatever it is], and thus we need to share our views on the matter instead of imposing them. Still, imposing stuff is somehow a human nature national sport, if you see what I mean.

    74. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Moses+Lawn · · Score: 1

      Yes, but how do we know how many different times the universe was created with different sets of parameters that didn't work?

      There is no way to tell if existence was a one-shot or if the gods are running a script that iterates through every combination of possible values. Given the probabilities involved, the try-everything-and-see-what-works scenario seems more likely.

      Assuming it's not something *completely* different.

      --

      What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?

    75. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, basically you are saying that between time 0 and 2^-43 s after the BB, matter simply started to exist, i.e. the matter involved in BB arose from nothing to a finite amount in that timneframe?

      Think of the big bang as the south pole of a globe, with north being forward in time and south being back. All matter exists on the surface of the sphere. The exact nature of what's happening there can only be explained by a unified theory of physics, but you can see that "before" doesn't really mean much. (And no, you can't rise up off the sphere to get around that).

    76. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Moses+Lawn · · Score: 1

      Well, until there is some independent attribution for that book of theirs, it's not really "honest inquiry" or "defense through reason". "Honest philosophical inquiry", yes, but only within the scope of a self-consistent philosophy that stands on its own, but doesn't describe anything outside of itself.

      I'm not familiar with either of the books you mention, but every Christian bit of writing I've ever read takes as its primary, foundational assumption that the Bible is the true (sometimes literal) word of God and that all statements attributed to people are exactly as they were spoken. That's an awful lot to take for granted from a book with less corroborating evidence than could be used in a court of law, especially if you want to extrapolate from it to describe the world.

      --

      What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?

    77. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by jZnat · · Score: 1

      Yeah, another idea is that since there are so many black holes, it just seems a lot more possible for at least one of those billions upon billions of black holes containing a universe would not be hostile to life or our physics.

      If you find a brand new suit that fits you perfectly lying out on the freeway in the middle of nowhere, you'd be undeniably surprised. However, if you found that exact suit at a large tailor's shop, you wouldn't be so surprised knowing that they carry a large variety of suits and sizes, so they would be bound to carry your size.

      Apply that analogy to black holes, universes, etc.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    78. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Well, until there is some independent attribution for that book of theirs, it's not really "honest inquiry" or "defense through reason". "Honest philosophical inquiry", yes, but only within the scope of a self-consistent philosophy that stands on its own, but doesn't describe anything outside of itself.

      The general method that Christian philosophers of religion use is sound. Even the few atheist philosophers would agree with that, reserving critique for points of the argument instead of the approach as a whole.

      I'm not familiar with either of the books you mention, but every Christian bit of writing I've ever read takes as its primary, foundational assumption that the Bible is the true (sometimes literal) word of God and that all statements attributed to people are exactly as they were spoken.

      In The Resurrection of God Incarnate (Oxford University Press, 2003), Swinburne discusses support for and against the truth of the Bible. He doesn't at all make an assumption of its truth. In any event, most support for Christian doctrine can be found better through simple ontological and epistemological bases than by recourse to the Bible.

      Swinburne and Platinga are hardly little known. They have been respected in the philosophical world for over three decades. It reflects badly on you to rant and rage about Christians being ignorant when you seem to have not even the slightest training in philosophy of religion.

    79. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by rolandog · · Score: 1

      I started thinking on what was the origin of science... I guess the greeks must've come up with it when they spent some time thinking about their religion... I'm not sure I would've seriously believed in a religion that involves a sex goddess born from the splash in the ocean caused by some castrated god's genitalia.

    80. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Mr_Huber · · Score: 1

      Have you considered the Holy Path of Pesto?

    81. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Moses+Lawn · · Score: 1

      Having just done some looking into Plantinga and Swinburne, I stand somewhat corrected. These appear to be serious, respected philosophers. I fully agree I have no academic background in philosophy, so I don't know the players or all the terminology.

      The point I was making was that, within the context of a particular philosophy (say, Christian Philosophy), one can be intellectually rigorous and sound, but that the conclusions that one comes to do not necessarily apply to anything outside that philosophical context.


      In The Resurrection of God Incarnate (Oxford University Press, 2003), Swinburne discusses support for and against the truth of the Bible. He doesn't at all make an assumption of its truth.

      This article in "Philosophy Now" seems to describe Plantinga and Swinburne's views pretty well. This bit from the section on 'Christian Philosophy' makes him sound like he has, in fact, made an assumption of Biblical truth:

      "...perhaps the most systematic treatment of issues arising from the Christian creeds is Richard Swinburne's tetralogy. The first volume of this is Responsibility and Atonement, which is about humankind's sinfulness, guilt, and God's salvation of humans by the atonement. The second volume, Revelation, discusses what it would be for a sacred book, such as the Bible, to be a revelation from God. The third, The Christian God, deals with the doctrines of the incarnation and the Trinity."

      I'm sorry, but someone who holds the position of Professor of the Philosophy of the Christian Religion at Oxford University, and is a member of the Orthodox Church, is hardly likely to come to the conclusion that Biblically-based Christianity is wrong.


        In any event, most support for Christian doctrine can be found better through simple ontological and epistemological bases than by recourse to the Bible.

      Well, that's just going to get you support for generic religious principles and the existence of some form of God. You can't make it support Christianity until you add the Bible as a set of axioms.


      It reflects badly on you to rant and rage about Christians being ignorant when you seem to have not even the slightest training in philosophy of religion.

      I did not "rant and rage", and I called no one ignorant. Please, it reflects poorly on you to suggest that I did.

      --

      What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?

    82. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      There is plenty of honest inquiry in religion.

      No. There isn't. Religion has no base; there is no objective fact underlying it. No amount of speculating upon an idea that "something" exists for which we have no evidence, regardless of how sincere or complex, can equate even slightly to honest inquiry. It is naval-gazing, pure and simple.

      Science produces tangible, useful results that improve our lives each and every day; thus we demonstrate that it is a working system based upon useful, reality-based precepts. Religion produces nothing but confusion and self-referential pabulum. It would be delightful if it were otherwise, just as it would be delightful if there were a Santa Claus, if there were brownies, if there were sprites, if there were mermaids. Alas, these things exist only in the mind.

      Christians do not run away from philosophical inquiry

      Of course they don't. Philosophy, while certainly the home of many interesting systems of thought, is also the sheltered breeding ground for an unlimited variety of utter nonsense. Most of it contradictory, some of it self-contradictory, and all of it indefensible on a level playing field with anything that is reality-based.

      It is not in the philosophical realm that religion would have real value. It would have real value if indeed, you could pray and receive correction for those facets of life that are inconvenient or outright destructive; it would have real value if the innocent would not suffer, if heaven actually awaited after a life of strife and service; it would have real value if disease and accident and injustice were outclassed by the forces brought to bear by religion. However, we know that none of this is true. Life, and its various inconveniences, goes on utterly unchanged outside the locus of our own skulls, no matter what antics the preists, shamen, and philosophers indulge in. This, in turn, shows religion has no value outside of self-deception. That is not the same as no value, but compared to the ability of science to actually mediate issues such as a woman's odds of dying in labor and a child's odds of surviving its first few years, prayer and worship have about as much practical value as astrology and phrenology.

      I will grant you that the social structures built by organized religion have practical value; for instance, Mormons have very strong support on a tangible level for other members of their group; but this support is comparable to that of any coherent, aligned social group such as a ham radio club or one's family. It is not, in and of itself, a benefit unique to religion.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    83. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Mr_Huber · · Score: 1

      Currently, our understanding can only approach within a Planck time of the Big Bang. That is, we can more or less understand everything from 10e-43 seconds after the moment, but can go back no further. Beyond that point, we need a theory of quantum gravitation.

      Some of this is known. The matter came from the energy. Put enough energy in a region and it condenses into particles. This happened on a massive scale as protons and electrons condensed from the original fireball. But the energy? That's something quantum electrodynamics and general relativity cannot directly answer.

      However, should string theory bear out, it can probe past the Planck time, as well as before the Big Bang itself. Under one hypothesis, our Universe is embedded in a larger multidimensional space. Surfaces in this space at one point collided. When they hit, the energy of collision created our Universe expanding on the multidimensional surface of one of these membranes.

      Strange, I know, but string theory is barely able to make accurate predictions, so take this with a grain of salt. But it does show something fundamental about science: not all answers are known. This is a very hot topic in physics right now, with physicists in working hard on a unification theory for gravity and the other four forces. With luck, they'll find the answer in our lifetimes, and we may have an answer. Or perhaps it will take another century or two of work out.

    84. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but someone who holds the position of Professor of the Philosophy of the Christian Religion at Oxford University, and is a member of the Orthodox Church, is hardly likely to come to the conclusion that Biblically-based Christianity is wrong.

      Swinburne was writing in this vein before he came to either of those places.

      This bit from the section on 'Christian Philosophy' makes him sound like he has, in fact, made an assumption of Biblical truth:

      No, those books examine the claims that the Church makes without taking them as assumptions. It's been a couple of years since I last read Responsibility and Atonement, but I can't remember it quoting at all from the Bible. It deals with these notions in a very general sense.

      Well, that's just going to get you support for generic religious principles and the existence of some form of God. You can't make it support Christianity until you add the Bible as a set of axioms.

      Much of Swinburne's initial tetrology shows that even without the Bible, one can deduce the existence of a single God consisting of three Persons, that mankind has some kind of debt to this God, and that this God somehow provided an atonement for this debt. It isn't until after the tetrology that he begins to draw in Biblical evidence to a large degree.

    85. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Moses+Lawn · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The basic idea being that if you assume there's just one thing, the chances of it being exactly right are probably zero. If there are a near-infinite number of them, the chance of none of them being right are about zero.

      So, either God created us *just like this*, or we just randomly happened. I think this is where I came in...

      --

      What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?

    86. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      You set science and philosophy against each other and make it sound as if they are antithetical. In fact, most scientists understand the value of philosophy. Higher-level university studies in the sciences almost always require a course or two in philosophy of science. And of course, even technically-inclined large universities have two or three philosophy courses in their general requirements.

    87. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Floody · · Score: 1
      Intelligent Design came from thought. If humans didn't think, there would have never been such ideas as Intelligent Design.


      Well, thank you Captain Descartes. ;)
    88. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      You set science and philosophy against each other and make it sound as if they are antithetical.

      No. I simply identify religion as one of the many empty ideas that shelter under the very broad umbrella of philosophy. There are many worthy ideas as well; one way to derive a broad hint is if an idea, existing only as a set of philosophical concepts, untestable, identifies itself as speculation. As soon as claims are made for truth, much less absolute truth, then we can be almost certain that we have exhumed some bunkum.

      If, on the other hand, it turns out that an idea or idea set can traverse from the abstract realm of philosophy into that of the real world (for example, various areas of mathematics have repeatedly made this journey) then we have created something most valuable. Cheers and congratulations all around.

      Religion, however, has never made this transition. Only the mundane effects of belief make themselves known; everything from Protestants blowing up Catholics to Muslims flying into buildings to the pope denegrating homosexuals can be attributed to religion, and every day brings more and more of this.

      While philosophy is, in and of itself, a perfectly respectable and complex realm, that is not to say that philosophy as a whole does not contain a significant number of poorly constructed ideas. It certainly does. Religion appears to me to be one of the foremost of these — one of the least credible, the most invidious, the most deceptive. It preys on the innocent and the gullible... detailed examples abound.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    89. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evolution does not deal with origins. Evolution is merely how certain traits develop and propagate.

    90. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's all around us.

      They just found some chemicals used in us around a distant star.

    91. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 1
      Neither does "It all happened by chance." The absolutely arbitrary but incredible necessary (as far as we can or shall ever know) design of all the forms of matter, energy, forces, and laws of physics, the cosmos, and living things.

      So, if you prefer "singularity" (read, "infinitesimal point of nothingness that somehow encapsulated and provided everything in the universe") to "God", and "Big Bang" (read, "explosion") to "intelligent designer", hey, it's a free country (read, "we don't cut off your head, or put out a fatwah on you), enjoy your own reasoning, intelligence, and interpretation of all that science has discovered!

    92. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I agree, though that was once, and until about the time of Darwin, exactly what scientists thought "science" WAS all about! The field, or idea of science, has "evolved" a lot since then.

      Or has it?

      Do we have any sort of chance of observing the "Big Bang"? Or other universes. Or the "bulk" (a sort of space outside "spacetime" as we "know" it? Or the origin of life (not to be confused with "origin of species", which Darwin theorized was how that original life form(s) became as varied and complex and interdependent as it is today)? Or do you think we (in this millenia) have any way of actually seeing, measuring, or studying, wormholes or the "other dimensions" inside the "strings" (our best "scientific" theory of everything)? Or almost any of the ideas about cosmology, or origins or reasons for the way things are that yet are considered "good science" (essentially because they don't include "God" or ... uh, the "supernatural"! Uh, sorry, they ALL seem pretty "super, or supra-natural" to me!)

      Actually, science is quite willing to consider anything equal to, or even more undefinable than "God", just as long as they don't have to call it "God", or read about it in the Bible first!. But, hey, it's a free country and they are entitled to believe in, and develop a theology about, anything they want. Their theories are often good enough guesses that they actually bear good fruit, and make such things as the technologies that sustain /.!

      Just wish they were more tolerant of new ideas! Where would we be if Einstein had not been allowed to replace Newton (whose theoretical construct, by the way, still works best for certain branches of science and technology!)

    93. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Do we have any sort of chance of observing the "Big Bang"?

      No, but we observe the effects of it.

      Or other universes. Or the "bulk" (a sort of space outside "spacetime" as we "know" it? Or the origin of life (not to be confused with "origin of species", which Darwin theorized was how that original life form(s) became as varied and complex and interdependent as it is today)? Or do you think we (in this millenia) have any way of actually seeing, measuring, or studying, wormholes or the "other dimensions" inside the "strings" (our best "scientific" theory of everything)?

      None of these things you mentioned are complete scientific theories. Most are at best philosophy, at worst pure speculation. Some of them may eventually become theories, once they meet the five basic properties of a proper scientific theory: predictive, logical, testable, falsifable, provable.

      You are correct that the examples you mentioned are no better than supernatural explanations, that is why they are not actually scientific theories in their current form.

    94. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Do we have any sort of chance of observing the "Big Bang"? Or other universes. Or the "bulk" (a sort of space outside "spacetime" as we "know" it? Or the origin of life (not to be confused with "origin of species", which Darwin theorized was how that original life form(s) became as varied and complex and interdependent as it is today)? Or do you think we (in this millenia) have any way of actually seeing, measuring, or studying, wormholes or the "other dimensions" inside the "strings" (our best "scientific" theory of everything)? Or almost any of the ideas about cosmology, or origins or reasons for the way things are that yet are considered "good science" (essentially because they don't include "God" or ... uh, the "supernatural"! Uh, sorry, they ALL seem pretty "super, or supra-natural" to me!)


      For more information about logical fallacies, see wikipedia.
    95. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 1
      Actually, we observe various things, or measure or calculate or interpret various features of our universe, as best we can, through telescopes and various observatories on earth or satellite, and some scientists choose to regard them as "effects" of the Big Bang. Others don't. Others argue as to whether those observations (call them "data") prove or disprove the Big Bang, or one of the several variations or modifications of that theme (you know, different models of an hypothesized event that still essentially looks like the original paradigm called "Big Bang). Yet others use that same data to build their own cosmological or physics theories, most of which are very different from any type of "Big Bang".

      I'm not sure what you mean by "complete scientific theories". I don't think, actually, there is any such thing in any of science, though I'd be willing to consider any candidates you might proffer. But, certainly no one can say even such staples of the standard model as Relativity, or Quantum Mechanics, or Big Bang, or any of its several popular "corrections" or versions (some of which lead to...) String theory (or I should say, "theories"), Brane theory, or ... well, you know. Most, and in the opinion of many in and out of science - all, are "philosophy" or "pure speculation". But, the truth is, that really IS science. And the good practice of which is the effort to flesh out those speculations or philosophies with good data/arguments, and diminish our doubts, and using the "models" or "paradigm" to build useful technologies or adventures (like space satellites or travel, or better computers or communication devices, or medical therapies, etc). Newton's theory was great for describing the solar system, aiming artillary shells, building automobiles, etc., even though it was so simplistic and "wrong". And what better example is there, today, than the "spooky", and so unexplainable paradigm of quantum mechanics?

      And, of course, we should not forget that old standby, "the theory of evolution", which is still ripping our society apart and fueling "the culture wars" (and, perhaps, the anger of Al Queda). How many people are arguing that that is NOT a "complete" theory ... or "fact"? All the while others (most scientists, to be sure) are absolutely insisting we all accept it as complete fact, while they continually debate and revise it to fit new data, etc.

    96. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 1
      Of course, you have not quite got it when you talk about "before the Big Bang", because there is no "before" in and understandable sense of that language. Time began at the Big Bang. So there is/was no "before", in our experience, or scientific theory, etc....

      And you've generalized quite a bit, when you describe "religion" as "assuming an anthromorphic made-up 'person....'". I suppose you are really thinking of the Judeo-Christian religions. Of course, there are many more. And one might even make a hell of a good argument that "scientism", "naturalism", and "athiesm" can be considered religions. And certainly, I always argue that "Evolutionism" is a religion. It certainly has a full-fledged theology, and most of those who believe in "Evolution" think it supplies all the same answers, the "how", and "why", even the basis of their "morality", virtues", "identity", and reasons for how they deal with the rest of their world. Indeed, it even defines their "reality".

      I agree, we may (well, not you or I, likely) last long enough, as a species, to get the observations that explain or verifie some of our more difficult cosmological and physics theories. But, as far as you and I are concerned, we are far more likely to get the answer to the "God" and "hereafter" theories of "religion", including those of the Bible! In our personally limited time, that is.

    97. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 1
      "Straw man arguments" I understand. But your point, I don't. Really.

      Oh well, the Chargers are up against it with the KC Chiefs, and then the Seahawks against the Colts, so I gotta go and get serious about the really BIG matters of life. Merry Christmas!

    98. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1
      Yes, I was being pretty generalized in my characterization of religion, but in general, it's a system of beliefs in a supernatural explaination of the world, usually in the form of a divine being in whatever form that creator takes, be it a single entity or multiple entities. Calling science a religion occurs only because most fundamentalists or anyone else who feels their beliefs being attacked want to try to see it in those terms to bring it down to their level so that they can say it's just another way of looking at things or another set of beliefs. I don't believe that there's any argument to be made about whether science, naturalism, or atheism are religions. How is lack of belief in a supreme being a religion? Like "not collecting stamps" is a hobby. Can I start a church of science, naturalism, or atheism to claim tax exempt status?

      I'm not sure how evolutionary theory can be considered a religion by taking into account any of the three definitions of theology according to dictionary.com. Evolutionary theory may supply the "how", but we define our own "why". The only answers evolution supplies are in describing the natural way that we see all the biological diversity we do. It doesn't define reality; it describes it.

      I'm not quite sure what the hell your last paragraph means. You may think you'll get all your religious answers, but it certainly isn't "as far as I'm concerned"; that's all you. And I'll stick to what I believe I've been taught from reading Kurzweil and de Grey, we'll probably be here for much longer than you would like to believe. At least in those beliefs, I can be proven wrong, although I doubt it. That's the nice thing about those Biblical theories: they can never be shown to be "wrong" because we can always just say we weren't "meant" to know when we don't find the answers we're looking for. And just what happens when those answers end up being "this isn't true"?

      What happens when it's shown that life can be started from scratch without supernatural intervention? Will the response be "well, it wasn't started from scratch, they used previously existing DNA or microbe shells!"? Or will it be "See?? Humans created life, so life needs a creator!"? At your most basic fundamental level of what we would consider a living organism, you are just chemistry and subject to the laws of chemistry.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    99. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure what you mean by "complete scientific theories".


      Basically a scientific theory makes testable predictions.

      Do not be confused by the fact that "brane theory" and "string theory" both have the word "theory" in them, neither one meets this criteria yet (but either or both may in the future).

      But back to the point about the difference between science and religion, can you give one example of a theory that incorporates the supernatural and meets this criteria?
    100. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Moses+Lawn · · Score: 1

      [he] is hardly likely to come to the conclusion that Biblically-based Christianity is wrong.

      Swinburne was writing in this vein before he came to either of those places.

      My point was that he's a devoted Christian, so it's likely to influence his views somewhat. It can be very tempting to develop and convince yourself of the truth of a philosophy that matches your existing belief system.


      Much of Swinburne's initial tetrology shows that even without the Bible, one can deduce the existence of a single God consisting of three Persons, that mankind has some kind of debt to this God, and that this God somehow provided an atonement for this debt. It isn't until after the tetrology that he begins to draw in Biblical evidence to a large degree.


      This actually sounds really interesting. I'd like to read some of it. My thinking on this subject is not all that far away (except for the 3-part god idea), although we wind up in very different places. It's refreshing to hear about someone making logical, well-reasoned arguments for Christianity (or any religion) without a priori assuming the truth of the sacred texts.

      But your original response to fyngyrz about religion being "the gentle road away from honest inquiry" was what I initially responded to. His point was that religion has traditionally been a discipline of belief in ancient dogma and the comfort of benevolent parental figures, as opposed to pure scientific reason. Your response sounded like more of the usual "no it's not, read this intellectual defense of the Bible" style of argument. Thank you for pointing out that some Christian thinkers are arguing otherwise.

      I've always been under the impression that the Bible is the sole authority for Christian doctrine, and that all other dogma was derived from it, hence my original comment about the self-defining nature of the Bible.

      --

      What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?

    101. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 1
      Actually, I really don't want to carry on a tit for tat debate, but the Chargers are doing poorly, and half-time frees me up to make a couple of points.

      How I define religion is a bit broader than you might, because I spent a few years getting an MA in anthro, and in field work, cross cultural studies, and for broader scientific purposes, "religion" in many cultures around the world (and throughout history), and even for understanding a lot of folks in subcultures of our own society, you need not have a "divine being", nor the "supernatural" (as you probably concieve of it, ie, spirits and magic etc.) to have a religion. And, as the IRS has found, and you might if you look at what actually does qualify as a "church" or "religion", yes, you can start a church of naturalism or atheism or naturalism.

      A "religion" is a cultural institution or set of beliefs that answer the existential questions most - if not all humans - have and need answered that they migh sleep better at night.

      If "Evolution" is how someone explains the origins of the universe, and themselves, and if "evolution" is looked to for the ethics and morality that one wishes to establish or justify one's behavior, and if "Evolution" is the intellectual framework that one adopts in place of what other cultures use the Bible, or myths about the volcano out back to explain, (like the reason we are "the people", and all other humans are actually animals no more deserving respect or life than a chipmunk) well, then for most purposes, in a scientific (or social science) study, evolution is reasonably considered and treated as a religion.

      Anyway, as far as I can see (and I've seen a lot), and as I've understood evolution during those many years I researched in, and taught evolution (mostly U of Cal, various campuses), it also attempts to answer the "why", not just the "how". And, especially for those who seek to get beyond the inherent limits of Darwinism, and explain the origins of life, and not just of species, they really wish to supplant the notion of "god" and any other "divine being" or force or explanations, and that makes it pretty "religious". And evolution does not merely "describe" "the natural way". It is a theory, a belief" of the "Why", with that capital "W".

      And you know, the reason many folks have a problem with evolutionists is precisely because the evolutionists will not let "that theory" be shown to be wrong. The evolutionists are very intolerant of every other religion (ooops, theory of the way, and why, things are the way they are), and that's why the culture wars are here. That very powerful 5% are unwilling to let any other ideas of the other 95% of the world get any hearing at all... except of course, in "religion" or "philosophy" classes or clubs.

      Oh well, I DO wish you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Hope, for your sake, you are right. Me, I have a lot less at stake. I know about, and have a lot of confidence/belief, and credentials, in both sides!!!

    102. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 1
      Oh wow. I fully agree with you about brane theory, but I think that many scientists who are currently building their careers on it would beg to differ. And if you'll look at what's being published nowadays, there are a heap of physicists who talk, and matriculate, and offer up arguments to the contrary. Like branetheory is all over the IOP journals (electronic)!

      I don't agree regarding string theory. I think it's building a pretty respectable reputation, and a paradigm that fits well with a lot of the Standard Model, and astronomical and physics data. And it certainly offers one of the best hopes for that desired "theory of everything", and it certrainly offers an intellectual picture every bit as powerful as what Einstein gave us in 1905.

      As for your question: tell me what you mean by "supernatural". (I assume you are interested only in the hard physical sciences. Get over into the social sciences, and psychology, etc., and "incorporating" the "supernatural" is not uncommon.)

    103. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1
      I may be misinformed, but I had not heard about any testable predictions from either theories. Do you have any examples? Both fields have the potential to become theories, but aren't there yet until they produce testable predictions.

      As for your question: tell me what you mean by "supernatural". (I assume you are interested only in the hard physical sciences. Get over into the social sciences, and psychology, etc., and "incorporating" the "supernatural" is not uncommon.)


      Sure
    104. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by bareshiyth · · Score: 1
      Well, my habit, usually, is to be very precise, have my citations in line, etc., but this being the day that it is, the Seahawks now on TV, my 8 year-old grand daughter pestering me to pay her more attention, I'll wing it.

      The advocates/practitioners of each think they do. Mathematical exercises excepted, the brane folks think they are posing testable hypotheses regarding gravity, and how it scales across the universe, and as regards the cosmological constant. They also think they can use it to offer an alternative to the Big Bang, and its problems. I think they also think they may have something to offer on the subject of wormholes.

      String theorists are posing hypotheses regarding elements of physics: about bosons and what new quark, or sub-quark entities we may find. They also think they can predict what we will find when a couple of higher energy smashers come on line. They also think they can give better explanations of some of the properties/mysteries in quantum theory. And they think they can account for some of what the CMB studies have revealed, and do away with those anomolies that require super-inflation, etc., adjustments to the Big Bang theory.

      Of course, string theory, especially, is dealing with stuff far beyond diorect observation, and not easily experimented with. Instead, much of their rationale for earning respect and paychecksw comes from either offering verbal or computational descriptions of some of the missing links in the quantum and subquantum (say, Planc) level of things. And their wortk is conceptual, or argumentive, offering what they think are better explanations for the data and observations that others us QM or whatever. So, theirs is beginning to be predictive, after having been generally retrodictive and of the nature of "but a better explanation is...", but opponents simply say they are wrong and stick to their guns. That's real science. Eh?

      So, a "testable prediction", in string theory is still more generally hitchhiking on other research intended to test predictions of those other physics. I'd say, the string theorists have been pretty persuasive, and are far from a small minority, now.

      Anyway, that's as far as I can respond right now. You can continue to believe what you want. I can't say, had we the chance to really converse, we'd actually have any real disagreements. I just tend to stay pretty open to most ideas, and while I think brane theory is silly unscientific nonsense (though a number of scientists get their paychecks talking about it), I will even listen to them. But I do like string theory (theories). But, since most "discussion" in /. lasts but a day, I doubt we can go much further, here. I HAVE to take off with my grand daughter to her house to pick up the Christmas holiday with the rest of her family (4 more kids, all under 10), so you can see where my priorities must go.

      Sorry I gotta go, but...

    105. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by ozydingo · · Score: 1

      Ya know, I never said anything about science having all the answers either; I think anyone who has their own thoughts and isn't just being anit-religion for the sake of being anti-religion can agree that science doesn't and never will answer every question. My point was merely to point out that there are those that try to justify the perceived dichotomy by saying "science answers how and religion answers why" usually don't really know what they're talking about and are just trying to provide a response that justifies co-existence of what is proven (or at least has a large pool of solidly backed evidence) and what they want to continue to believe.

      Science doesn't answer everything. But it is because it only tries to produce answer based on reason and evidence rather than recursively taught blind faith that I give it more credibility.

    106. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by PriceIke · · Score: 1

      There is no disconnect of reason. It is simpler (see Occam's Razor) to believe that the universe was always around than it is to believe that a noncorporeal, intelligent and mysteriously benevolent entity was always around and was a necessary instigator of the universe.

      --
      It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
    107. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by ACPosterChild · · Score: 1

      That's easy: WE DON'T KNOW. Sure, there are some hypotheses. But, as of yet, they are untestable. So, we simply don't know and science isn't going to supply an answer simply to quell the discomfort of acknowledging that we don't know everything.

      And that is the crux of the clash between religion and science. Science only accepts what can be proven (while allowing for the submittal and discussion of a multitude of theories). Some religions are happy to accept as fact certain speculations or other unverifiable claims. The clash happens when someone with an unverifiable belief (often religion based) insists that a hypothesis be treated with equal scientific respect as a Law or Theory.

      Follow that road and you find yourself listening to certain administrations and corporations stating that they shouldn't have to follow X because they have an alternative opinion of the scientific data. What they're doing is a disgrace to the process of science and the work that many people have put in over centuries to bring us to where we are today. That type of behavior has no redeeming qualities; it retards our progress, harms the psyche of the impressionable, and creates conflict where a reasonable mind should find none. Those actions are based on greed, power, self-importance, and a complete disregard for rational thought. I cannot help viewing such actions with anything better than contempt and disgust. Such actions are not only an attack on science, they are an attack on our progress, our way of life, and those whom have done amazing things and given greatly so that we might have better than they.

    108. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by ACPosterChild · · Score: 1

      The best, of course, is hearing that sentiment shortly after they profess to be certain about any of God's feelings or ideas (e.g., abortion, to pick a hot topic). It's always been the hight of hypocrisy to me, and the fact that they don't see it really lowers the stock of humanity in my eyes.

    109. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by ACPosterChild · · Score: 1

      I'm not entirely sure where your stance is on the subject.

      In any case, here's a little discussion for you.

      1) The Big Bang hypothesis is simply a logical extrapolation of the observed universe. Currently, the best measurements show that everything cosmological is moving away from everything else (i.e., galaxies). Logically, if you run that in reverse, everything gets closer and closer to everything else. Using the observed deceleration and mass estimates, one can calculate a time at which all of the matter in the universe was at a single spot. That time and those circumstances are where our current models break down, and scientists are willing to say "we don't know". Being unsatisfied with that answer, they will conjecture and hypothesize, but they WILL NOT claim to know for certain.

      2) Extra dimensions are used to help the mathematics work. Wormholes are mathematical conjectures. These ideas and more are brought into popular culture by SciFi authors, where they are romanticized and used as plot devices. The author's IMAGINATION and your consumption is where these ideas become supernatural. The mathematical definition of a wormhole and your ideas of a wormhole are wholly disparate.

      3) Newtonian physics does not work best for anything. What happens is that the relitavistic effects become so minute that you can ignore them (especially because they get overshadowed by specifics that can only be modeled statistically). So, Newtonian physics work WELL ENOUGH for pretty much everything we do, but Einstein's will still give you a more accurate number.

      4) Science is perfectly open to new ideas, assuming that they are testable. You can even make up entirely new math if you need to, as long as it explains known phenomena as well or better than current models. The Einstein example is a great one. (Are wormholes testable? Not as far as I know. But, the hypothesis sits upon a great deal of math that has worked great so far, and that gives the idea credibility. It is not simply a conjecture.) A question you should seriously be asking yourself is how long it took the church to admit that sunlight was not perfectly white and how open they are to new ideas. Which institution, science or religion, looks for ways in which to improve its understanding, and which opposes new ideas and escalates minutia to jihad importance?

      Given your misunderstanding of the subject matter, it is no wonder that you believe science has an element of faith and theology. It seems to me that you are confusing science fiction with science. I would suggest learning to fit your mind and ideas to the world rather than the other way around, and I can guarantee that you won't be taught that at church.

    110. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by ACPosterChild · · Score: 1

      Be careful that you don't presume yourself that science *can* know all. It's worked great for us so far, but that's not a guarantee!

    111. Re:Ingredients of Life Found Around Sun-Like Star by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      There's no guarantee, but is there any reason to imagine why not, other than there are things that we currently don't know? If we assume we live in a materialistic world and that this is all there is, why would it be beyond our power to be able to figure anything out? On the other hand, if there is a supernatural aspect to this universe, then how can we trust ANY science if things can change at the whim of the supernatural, and how do you even define supernatural if it exists within an otherwise material world?

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

  2. Intelligent Design by setirw · · Score: 5, Funny

    Definitive proof that the building blocks of life were purposefully placed here by a space alien :-)

    --
    This message printed on 100% post-consumer recycled electrons.
    1. Re:Intelligent Design by IDontAgreeWithYou · · Score: 1

      Actually, when I read the article, I had a thought. Billions of years ago, some alien creature was reading a news story about organic molecules discovered in the dust of our solar system. They've been watching us ever since...

      --
      Finding other idiots on /. that agree with your opinion doesn't make it any less stupid.
    2. Re:Intelligent Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its not an alien rather the flying spaghetti monsters noodley appendages that put it there.

    3. Re:Intelligent Design by Apreche · · Score: 1

      A flying space alien made of pasta with noodly appendages.

      --
      The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
    4. Re:Intelligent Design by hesiod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Billions of years ago, some alien creature was reading a news story about organic molecules discovered in the dust of our solar system. They've been watching us ever since...

      Actually, since they are billions of light-years away, they just noticed last week.

  3. In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ingredients for bleu cheese found in my bathroom... but that doesn't mean it is bleu cheese or that I'd want to eat it even if it were.

    1. Re:In other news by Golias · · Score: 1

      Ingredients for bleu cheese found in my bathroom... but that doesn't mean it is bleu cheese or that I'd want to eat it even if it were.

      W1n!

      So far, you've made the only insightful observation on TFA in the entire thread.

      It was never in doubt that we would see other planets with acetylene, hydrogen cyanide, and liquid water, if we looked long enough. Finding an example of such a planet doesn't mean there's anybody there to add to our AIM buddy lists.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    2. Re:In other news by jdbartlett · · Score: 1

      I think the argument is that if your bathroom were involved in an earthquake and all those ingredients - against a bit of probability - were flung together in just the right way... Earthquakes have also been known to erect entire cities. That's how Rome got built in a day.

    3. Re:In other news by Andy+Gardner · · Score: 1

      I think the point is if all the required elements are present, then there is quite a high probability of them arranging in the correct way given a few billion years. Sure those ingredients in your bathroom aren't blue cheese now, but in a few billion years...?

    4. Re:In other news by Stupendoussteve · · Score: 1

      Isn't the saying "Rome wasn't built in a day"? Which came first, DNA or the protiens that parse DNA to make protiens that parse and duplicate DNA (and do all the other work in the body as well). The only reason we do anything more than sitting around as an extremely pre-embryo is the protiens that are in the one cell created at conception. I cannot think of a scientific way that those protiens and the DNA would both get into a cell and be a perfect match for eachother without some kind of intervention to jump start the thing "in the beginning".

    5. Re:In other news by marct22 · · Score: 1

      Wait, so you are saying that, because you lack the knowledge to understand some stuff about how things are put together, then some mystical entity must have created it? Neglecting the fact that others do know more than you, with years more experience? Never mind that science strives to learn more stuff that used to be unexplainable. What do you think science is, the strive to learn stuff we already know? Jeez...

    6. Re:In other news by rho · · Score: 1
      Really? You base this "high probability" on what, exactly?

      As I understand it, the "probability" is pretty low, which is why life is believed to be rare. Well, believed to be rare by those who haven't already decided that extra-terrestrial life is a given because otherwise "it would be a big waste of space."

      --
      Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
    7. Re:In other news by sam_handelman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here's the best story available at the moment:

        First came RNA, which combines the catalytic properties of proteins and the hereditary properties of DNA in a single molecule. So RNA can provide a template for new RNA (by base complimentarity) and also catalyse the polymerization of RNA onto itself. The odds of randomly assembling such an RNA are of course excruciatingly low - but we have a hundred million years and many, many RNA polymers floating around during that period. Furthermore, if we were on a planet where this had never occurred - would we be here to talk about it?

        RNA molecules form spontaneously in conditions like those on the early earth, given the right organic ingredients (i.e. in the presence of the molecules we see in that gas cloud, if they were on a planetary surface).

        Phospholipids (or other molecules, with similar charge properties) also form spontaneously, and arrange spontaneously into lipid bilayers.

        Since these lipid bilayers would have a strong tendency to concentrate whatever was in them when they floated away, the insides of these lipid bilayers would be ideal locations for these self-replicating RNA to congregate. I will refer to these proto-cells as "collectives of RNA molecules".

        Over time, these RNA molecules evolve new catalytic activities. It has been well established - in experimental studies - that randomly varied RNA can, indeed, evolve new catalytic activities. It takes a while, but we've got an aeon to burn.

        Three new RNA activities are key:
      a) Creating a "template" version of themselves/eachother consisting of DNA, rather than RNA. This will eventually become the inherited genome - but originally, this would confer a selective advantage because DNA molecules are more stable than RNA. Even today, no organism can synthesize DNA without first synthesizing a little RNA as a "primer" to get synthesis started.
      b) Making proteins as an aid to catalysis. The first proteins were probably non-informative polymers (like starch). Most likely, they served as bound cofactors (like heme iron in hemoglobin) and the like for RNA enzymes. Since proteins are almost universally superior catalysts to RNA, the first collective of RNA that had the ability to synthesize protein would have a great advantage. Even today, the fundamental reaction of protein synthesis is catalyzed by the RNA component of the Ribozome, although modern Ribozomes have a great many proteins that "help" the process.
      c) Synthesising additional phospholipids to make more membrane. As time goes on and the amount of free phospholipid floating in the water declines, this becomes a great selective advantage to any proto-cell, since it can reproduce more proto-cells limited only by available energy and reduced carbon.

        With these three - perfectly understandable - adaptations, you have evolved from a soap bubble full of RNA into a cell.

        ---

        Obviously, this story need not be true, and there are many details missing (or incorrect.) At the moment, however, it is the best explanation we have, and it is certainly possible.

      --
      The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
    8. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Finding an example of such a planet doesn't mean there's anybody there to add to our AIM buddy lists.

      Oh yeah? OphiuchusHottie1983 says otherwise.

    9. Re:In other news by Stupendoussteve · · Score: 1

      Thanks for some explanation :)

    10. Re:In other news by MightyMartian · · Score: 1
      I know science isn't the study of things we already know, I suppose I don't like putting my faith in unproven theories then, but it seems the thing to do around here is bash anyone that thinks something else is possible. What I don't understand is why sciense as a whole is so against the idea that something could have had a hand in it (not saying they should say that something did, but why not admit the possibility?), except for their job security

      So now your ignorance is combined with a conspiracy theory. You're digging an awfully big hole here.

      A couple of points. First of all, no abiogenesis researcher states that DNA was the start. DNA is very likely the end result of the process. Even the RNA world scenario is midway along the process.

      Second of all, science is not against "intelligent agents", but you have to evidence for them. You can't simply invent a solution without the evidence to back it up. Saying "things are too complex" isn't a positive statement, but nothing more than an argument from incredulity. Can you imagine if all research was permitted to say things of that kind? That there are problems in abiogenesis is not contested. We're getting a loose framework of how organic molecules could become self-replicating and how these primitive replicators could have evolved more complex strategies for heredity and for more efficient chemical engines (and that's the wonder of the RNA world model, where you have a molecule that can work as both a catalyst and a means of heredity). There are a lot of holes to fill, but saying "something intelligent did it" doesn't actually answer any questions, but rather introduces an unevidenced factor that produces unanswerable questions.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:In other news by jdbartlett · · Score: 1

      Isn't the saying "Rome wasn't built in a day"?

      That is correct, and it's a very true saying. Rome wasn't built in a day, Rome was the result of a day's improbably complex tectonic movments. Rome wasn't built at all. Or that's the modern theory.

      Personally, I'm a Rome-Construction Apologist. I believe that the modern theory of the actual events leading to Rome's 'construction' do not have to conflict with The Holy Saying. After all, The Holy Saying says "Rome wasn't built in a day," and the theory of Earthquake says, "Rome wasn't built at all," so one doesn't have to contradict the other.

      It's a shame that so many forces in history have tried to hold up the idea that Rome was actually built intentionally (the Romans, for example). In more modern history, this kind of bigotry has subsided and people have come to accept that there is no archival footage, photographic evidence or witness evidence supporting the theory of Intelligent Architecture. Yes, it's a possibility, but we in the scientific community have to be realistic about these things.

    12. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'You're right, I lack the knowledge to say "The chicken came before the egg"'

      The egg came first. That's where the chicken came from.

      And for those of you who will then regurge:
      'But no! A chicken had to lay the egg!'

      Says who?

      If you are prepared to accept that chickens come from eggs then you have to admit that there was an egg.

      It doesn't mean that the egg was laid by a 'chicken', it was likely a mutation within the egg while it was gestating. The creature that hatched was a chicken.

      So there!

    13. Re:In other news by marct22 · · Score: 1
      Perhaps you should check out books like The Blind Watchmaker (Richard Dawkins), or stuff from Steven Gould, maybe learn something about complexity. Some things aren't really random, but have a tendency to self-organize. Why does a water molecule tend to form at a specific angle with respect to the two H's and 1 O? Is it some magical rule, or something that can be derived from known behavior? Why can't a water molecule of one big atom and two identical smaller atoms be found in a H----O-H (180 degrees) pattern instead of almost always
      O
      / \
      H H
      (It's hard to make this look like a triangle with ~105 degrees!).

      While this is an extreme example of self-organization (like iron filings near a magnet), others have a lesser tendency to self-organize, but they do over millions of years of constant mixing.

      Look at panning for gold. The odds of finding a gold flake or two in river sediment isn't very good. Taking a small sample of the sediment in a pan, adding water, and slowly swirling the pan so the water/dirt mixture spills out, the odds are, it's gonna fail too. Why? You haven't run enough samples. Maybe your panning technique sucks. You may never find a gold flake, after a months of panning. The self-organization hypothesis there? Gold, being heavier and denser, tends to sinks to the bottom of the pan. But you may never scoop up any gold to sink. You conclude that panning doesn't work, or that the stream has no gold. Later you may read that someone got lucky and found gold in the very stream you were in, panning for gold there. Did God place the gold in the stream after you left? Or was that person just lucky or panned more sediment than you? The point isn't getting rich, the point is that given enough time, with enough different experiments (sediment samples from different parts of the river, different depths, lots of people panning, etc.), one might hit upon the right reaction that results in a different result (found gold) than expected (found nothing).

      about how long a computer takes to simulate the folding of a protein? A protein has many atoms, all of which interact in some way with each other. Heck, it's difficult to solve a three-body problem (like a planet with two moons), let alone something with 100's and 1000's of moving parts. Think about how long it takes to calculate the right angles and velocities, determining forces, and deriving the equation from known physical laws and theories to describe the motion of the ball from which you can plug in the numbers to obtain the angles/velocity, to throw a baseball into a mitt, compared to just throwing the ball into the mitt.

      Did the chicken come before the egg? Let's pose a different but similar question. Did the dog come before its parent's sperm/egg? We all know that dogs were bred from wolves. So are you saying dogs sprang up from nothing? They arose out of no-where, replacing the wolf embryo with itself? Or through a gradual breeding program, that the spawn of spawn of spawn of many generations of wolves with particular characteristics eventually became what we now call dog?

      The answer to which came first, the chicken or the egg? The egg.

      Looking at how dna came to be surrounded by a cell wall, powered by mitochondria? Learn some cellular biology, and learn about some of simpler creatures, single-celled and simple multicelled. Eyes? Learn about light-sensitive cells and some of the creatures in the sea with crude eyes. Learn about sexual and asexual reproduction, genetic algorithms, etc.

      Does science have all the anwers? No. I don't mean to bash you, but statements like not being able to figure things out are kinda copouts which don't really contribute to learning new knowledge, but can be used as a roadblock to prevent others from learning new knowledge (let alone yourself). It's a Luddite viewpoint, and enough people buy into it, laws can get enacted to prevent people from exploring and investigating it. And there are other cultures who do not have such reservations, w

    14. Re:In other news by shokk · · Score: 1

      In other news, comets actually found to be spreading plagues!
      Something could be killing you at this very moment...more in tomorrow's edition.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
    15. Re:In other news by Andy+Gardner · · Score: 1
      I think you're mistaking what exactly I was refering to, and would consider to be a high probability event.

      The chances would be low of all the basic elements being present, on an rocky, temperate planet, the right distance from the star etc. etc. Yes the chances of this, from what we've observed (which isnt very much at all) would be low.

      What I was refering to as likely, is once all the unprobable requirements have been met and you have a world capable allowing these complex organic molecules to form, then given billions of years and interactions, they would eventually have to arrange in the correct way to form said molecular structures. Well not have to, but given the time span would seem quite probable. After all, once the conidtions were met for life on earth it sprang up pretty quick.

      As I understand it this sort chemistry can be reproduced in the lab.

    16. Re:In other news by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      I shouldn't complain about your wonderful abstract, but if you write it somewhere else, why not use something like collagen, instead of starch, as your non-informative polymer example, since collagen's actually a protein rather than being a sugar. With that said: I wish I'd written what you did. It's lovely and if I had mod points you'd get them.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  4. Dupe?! by lawpoop · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Though it was a little shakier than this observation, we've discussed the possibility of life elsewhere in the galaxy before."

    Oh, so you've bourght us another dupe, huh? Well, thanks, Slashdot mods, thanks! FOR NOTHING!

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
    1. Re:Dupe?! by brontus3927 · · Score: 1

      No, not at all. The other story was about the discovery of acetylene on Titan, a moon orbiting Saturn, which is, of course, in our own solar system. Thise new article is about the discovery of acetylene and hydrogen cyanide in a dust cloud orbiting a young star. If discovering the same chemical in two different places makes a dupe, then reporting on proccessor advancements, or updates on relevent lawsuits (like the lego's one) must be dupes too.

    2. Re:Dupe?! by BushCheney08 · · Score: 1

      Well, thanks, Slashdot mods, thanks!

      You do realize that the mods had absolutely nothing to do with this story being posted, right?

      --
      Be a real patriot: Question authority. Think for yourself. Formulate your own conclusions.
    3. Re:Dupe?! by COMON$ · · Score: 1

      Technically given that there is an infinite amount of energy available (thus infitite possibility) then somewhere in the universe, sometime we have already discussed this, and will discuss this again. Except that in one of the last times we discussed this you were the opposite gender and I was a talking peguin with a linuxphobia.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    4. Re:Dupe?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that the entire post was a joke, right?

      Oh, and I am not an athiest about most of the gods in human history. Your sig is incorrect.

    5. Re:Dupe?! by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Yes, kind sir, I forgot my closing sarcasm tag. Thank you, thank you.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    6. Re:Dupe?! by BushCheney08 · · Score: 1

      I find it humorous that my little trolldoll never posts using his account. It says a lot about how deep your religous convictions go. What are you afraid of? Is your god going to smite you? Or even worse, one of the other ones that you've chosen not to worship? You've very clearly offended many thousands of them who have every right to seek vengeance on you.

      --
      Be a real patriot: Question authority. Think for yourself. Formulate your own conclusions.
    7. Re:Dupe?! by hesiod · · Score: 1

      Not that it really matters, but atheist means believing in NO god of ANY kind. So if you believe in at least one, you are not an atheist.

    8. Re:Dupe?! by BushCheney08 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I realize that at it's core, the terminology is incorrect. I do wish that the author had stated it slightly differently. However, the overall point still stands.

      --
      Be a real patriot: Question authority. Think for yourself. Formulate your own conclusions.
  5. Wait - so Moby had it right? by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 1, Funny

    We are all made of stars?

    1. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      No, Rush had it right, back in 1990. We are made from the dust of stars, and the oceans flow in our veins.

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    2. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Informative
      Yes, like CSNY said --

      Woodstock - CSNY
      Well I came across a child of God, he was walking along the road
      and I asked him tell where are you going, this he told me:
      Well, I'm going down to Yasgur's farm, going to join in a rock and roll band.
      Got to get back to the land, set my soul free.
      We are stardust, we are golden, we are billion year old carbon,
      and we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    3. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      We are all made of stars?
      The Big Bang produced very little but hydrogen and helium, with some lithium (Thielemann et al. 2001). Various other elements (heavier than carbon but lighter than iron) are produced by fusion in the red giant stage of stars (Table 3). ... most of the elements that make up the computer you're using to view this article, the world around you, the solar system and your body, were originally produced in a supernova (Cameron & Truran 1977; Harper 1996).
      In short, yes.
    4. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by plopez · · Score: 1

      Nice humorous post :)

      Though, just to start a potentially off topic thread which will (as many off topic threads do) end in flame wars and tears, I think the actual line was 'we are caught in the devil's bargain'.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    5. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 1

      I believe that is a James Taylor song. I heard him sing it live on Howard Stern a number of years ago.

    6. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by pnewhook · · Score: 3, Interesting
      We are all made of stars?

      Actually, even the bible tells us this is so. "Ashes to ashes... dust to dust...".

      Could interpret this literally and say that we (the Sun, Earth and life on it) are made from interstellar dust initially, and that's where we end up when the solar system ends its life and turns back to ashes and dust when the sun explodes.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    7. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Golias · · Score: 2, Funny

      I sang it in the shower this morning, does that make it my song now?

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    8. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 1

      We are all made of stars?

              The Big Bang produced very little but hydrogen and helium, with some lithium (Thielemann et al. 2001). Various other elements (heavier than carbon but lighter than iron) are produced by fusion in the red giant stage of stars (Table 3). ... most of the elements that make up the computer you're using to view this article, the world around you, the solar system and your body, were originally produced in a supernova (Cameron & Truran 1977; Harper 1996).


      Someone explain this to me. If what you say is true that the carbon is produced from the supernova, how is it that using carbon dating we aren't all of the same age?

      For instance, H2O is recycled through the water cycle, therefore the H, and O are essentially the same atom, except maybe combined with a different H or an O.

      So, assuming that C atom stays the same, only perhaps combining with other different elements over time, isn't it not possible that I may have a 5 billion year old carbon in me?

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    9. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 2, Informative

      Carbon dating measures the ratios of various carbon isotopes (C-12 and C-14 I believe), not the age of individual carbon atoms.

    10. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no dude, moby stole it from Delenn (babylon 5)

    11. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by saider · · Score: 3, Informative

      Carbon dating measures the ratio of C14 to C12. C14 is radioactive and decays over time. When an organism is alive it is constantly ingesting outside sources of carbon and so the C12-C14 ratio is the same as that of the environment. The environment gets C14 when cosmic rays interact with C12 in the upper atmosphere. When the organism dies, it stops ingesting carbon, the C14 decays and the ratio changes. The change in this ratio can tell you how long ago something stopped ingesting C14 (when it died).

      You are not really measuring the age of the carbon atoms, just the ratio of a certian short-lived version of Carbon.

      --


      Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    12. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      The environment gets C14 when cosmic rays interact with C12 in the upper atmosphere.

      It's N14 the cosmic rays interact with, not C12.

    13. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More specifically, N-14 atoms excited by cosmic gamma radiation beta decays into C-14 atoms

    14. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the Sun won't explode; it will turn in to a brown dwarf. It will do this after expanding greatly, however, thereby burning everything on the earth's surface to ashes. So may be your biblical reference still holds.

    15. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by CaffeineAddict2001 · · Score: 1

      Uhm. Ashes to Ashes Dust to Dust is not in The Bible.

      It came from a Book of Common Prayers and is based on Genesis 3:19:

      By the sweat of your brow
      you will eat your food
      until you return to the ground,
      since from it you were taken;
      for dust you are
      and to dust you will return

    16. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a James Taylor song...it's a Joni Mitchell song
      (she went to the same High School that I did)

    17. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by blincoln · · Score: 1

      for dust you are and to dust you will return

      Personally, I'm waiting for the Director's Cut of the Bible. I hear the studio finally coughed up the money for the Lilith effects shots, so we'll get to hear the unedited version of this line that includes a qualification for people made from mud instead of dust.

      Also, it would be totally sweet for the sequel if they played off this in an Indiana Jones-style climax where a bunch of people are cut down by the wrath of God. The men would explode into clouds of dust a la the Nazi who drank from the wrong Grail, and the women would collapse inwards until only a single rib remained.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    18. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by plantman-the-womb-st · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's both. After the verse about the "child of god" the chorus has it as "caught in the devil's bargin". In the following chorusi it's "billion year old carbon".

      Changing up the lines in the chorus is a Neil Young thing. A lot of his songs do it, almost makes them verse like. Damn the poets.

      --
      Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
    19. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      I just remember seeing the minister reading it out of a book at a funeral and assumed it was the bible. However I will assume you are correct.

      Since the quote is based on a passage from Genesis which IS in the bible, I'd say my comment is close enough to be accurate.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    20. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      You're night. My mistake. However we'll be more than just burnt since the sun will expand beyond the orbit of Jupiter.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    21. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Quino · · Score: 1

      I'd guess they probably both read Cosmos in the 80s :)

      Sagan mentions that the salinity of our innards is similar to the ocean (our internal ocean), we are literally made out of dead star stuff, and that cosmic radiation is the fuel that powers the random mutations that drive evolution.

      He points out that we are, in a very literal sense, children of the stars.

      Good stuff.

      (I think most of this wasn't new to me even when I was reading Cosmos, but I certainly hadn't put it all together like that -- I always did think it was a nice thought).

    22. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It won't expand that far. Checking a couple of hits from a Google search indicates it will expand past Mercury, maybe but not definately past Earth. I do seem to recall reading somewhere that it would expand out to Mars (and Mars and Jupiter are very far apart), but nowhere I have seen it would expand as far as Jupiter.

      And besides we have 4 billion years or so to plan for it, so if anyone is still left on Earth to get burnt, they only have themselves to blame. :P

    23. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by sunspot42 · · Score: 1


      I believe that is a James Taylor song.

      Close. Try Joni Mitchell. CSNY recorded it first, before Mitchell recorded it for her album Ladies of the Canyon.

    24. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      $5 says it will. We'll settle after it happens.

      No consensus on this but, a star going through the red giant phase expands to approximately 200 times its diameter, and we are sitting at about 110 x farther out than the radius. So it's likely we will get swallowed. However some speculate that the earth will expand it's orbit so that it does not get swallowed.

      Maybe somebody will be around to watch the Andromeda galaxy crash into ours after all.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    25. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are all made of stars?

      Carl Sagan said it first, and better: we are all made of star stuff. We are the universe trying to figure itself out.

    26. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, poor baby.

      You were trying to be funny but failed it in a spectacular and, from the looks of it, painful manner. Do yourself a favor and stop pursuing "teh funnay" because it is not meant to be yours.

    27. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      I just remember seeing the minister reading it out of a book at a funeral and assumed it was the bible. However I will assume you are correct.

      Have you ever considered reading the Bible for yourself, to find out what it actually says?

      (Hint: "If you try to be a good person, you'll get into Heaven" is a common misconception that the Bible is quite clear about.)

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    28. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by pnewhook · · Score: 1
      Have you ever considered reading the Bible for yourself, to find out what it actually says?

      I have - several times and several other religious texts. I just haven't remembered every friggin line.

      Give me a break. Jeez.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    29. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by Golias · · Score: 1

      How is James Taylor close to being Joni Mitchell?

      I mean, apart from them both being hippy chicks?

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    30. Re:Wait - so Moby had it right? by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      Taylor is one of Mitchell's ex lovers.

  6. "the borderline between gas and liquid" by dirtsurfer · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Shouldn't it be where water exists on the borderline between gas and solid?

    I would think liquid water would be just fine for life. It's always worked for me.

    1. Re:"the borderline between gas and liquid" by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Informative

      " Shouldn't it be where water exists on the borderline between gas and solid?"

      No. Liquid water doesn't exist at the temp and pressure where there is a borderline between gas and solid, you get direct sublimation from solid to gas under those conditions -- unless you happen to be at exactly the triple point.

      Conversion between gas and liquid would help in the formation of life precursors, since the phase changes could help concentrate compounds in acqueous solution, resulting in greater rates of reaction. I'm sure there are other reasons why acqueous phase changes would help formation of complex organic molecules.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:"the borderline between gas and liquid" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Conversion between gas and liquid would help in the formation of life precursors, since the phase changes could help concentrate compounds in acqueous solution, resulting in greater rates of reaction.

      Your point is sound. But why do you need the temperature to be near boiling? Even if it isn't, evaporation is going to take place, causing the primordial broth of any lake to become more concentrated as long as there isn't any inflow of water. It happens here on Earth as well, isn't that why the Dead Sea is so salty?

      (Okay, I know that the closer the temperature is to boiling, the greater will be the rate of evaporation, making concentration more likely. The only reason I posted this is to bring up the Dead Sea. Did you know that the Dead Sea is an endorheic basin? And that the shore or remnant of such a basin is known in US and Mexico as ... a playa ? And any nigga who don't like that ain't nothin' but a playa hater, aight?)

    3. Re:"the borderline between gas and liquid" by dirtsurfer · · Score: 1

      Oh. Thanks. Your response was very informative, but somehow the question that lead to it is -1 offtopic. Hrm.

  7. Drake equation by tpjunkie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd say this would definitely incresase the probability of the drake equation resulting in a non-zero answer. Complex organic molecule formation is one of the biggies that you need for development of life.

    1. Re:Drake equation by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 1

      I'm inorganic you insensitive clod!

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    2. Re:Drake equation by Golias · · Score: 2, Informative

      Complex organic molecule formation is one of the biggies that you need for development of life.

      Too bad we're talking about very simple molecule formation here, or they would really be on to something. Adenine is just a relatively easy-to-form glob of hydrogen and nitrogen.

      Wiki has a map of the molecule in question, if you are curious.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    3. Re:Drake equation by FineWolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Drake equation never returns a zero answer. The minimum result you can get is 1. The reason is simple enough: the equation calculates the possible number of civilisation capable of interstellar communication, and we are one of them.

    4. Re:Drake equation by tpjunkie · · Score: 1

      Technically you are correct, but your reason is slightly off. The equation is N=R*F(p)*n(e)*f(l)*f(i)*f(c)*L It is used to calculate the odds of contacting an alien civilization. N is the number of Extraterrestrial civilizations one would expect to be able to communicate with. The number it returns cannot be zero as you pointed out, but it can be vanishingly close.

    5. Re:Drake equation by slavemowgli · · Score: 1

      The Drake equation already yields a non-zero number. If it really was zero, we wouldn't (and couldn't exist), either.

      Think about it - a probability of zero does not mean that something is highly, extremely, ludicrously unlikely; it means that it's outright impossible.

      --
      quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    6. Re:Drake equation by tpjunkie · · Score: 1

      exactly, and since the drake equation calculates our odds of contacting ANOTHER civilization, that is a possible outcome if there are no others.

    7. Re:Drake equation by Bob3141592 · · Score: 1

      I don't believe this factors into the Drake equation at all. I mean, it's great that the instruments are getting sensitive enough to detect these chemicals around other stars, but their presence in galactic molecular clouds have been known for a long time already. And as yet there is no reason to believe that the presence of these chemicals in space has anything whatsoever to do with their presence on a planet's surface, nor does it imply that life can exist in space. It only shows that chemistry happens, and if carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen are present in the same place, then organic chemistry happens, even if at exceedingly low densities. But classifying it as organic chemistry doesn't mean it's associated with organisms in any way.

      --
      In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
    8. Re:Drake equation by AJWM · · Score: 1

      the drake equation calculates our odds of contacting ANOTHER civilization

      No, it doesn't. It calculates the number of civilizations capable of contact, based on assumptions about the odds of the various factors.

      Even if one knows the number of contact-capable civilizations, computing the odds of actual contact requires assumptions about a bunch of other factors not in the Drake equation.

      --
      -- Alastair
  8. Gives a whole new meaning... by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

    ... to Helloween's song that goes "tonight we are staaaaaaaars, staaaaaaars..." :)

    --
    Global warming is a cube.
  9. Wow, artists rule. by mister_llah · · Score: 1

    These spectrograms! Artists can infer a lot from them, just look at that fine picture that they extrapolated from the data [for planet forming]

    Since they took care of the latter half of the article, I figure I'll cover for the former.

    Here is an ASCII artist's impression of what the organic material might look like, circling that sun-like star! .O.

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
  10. DNA in space? by lawpoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I just thought of something while looking at the graphic -- what if RNA and DNA originally assemble in the pre-planetary cloud and hang around, falling into condensing planets and so forth?

    I think the current popular theory, IIRC, is that RNA molecules somehow stack up in a tidal pool, where they are gently rocked back and forth. Some correct me please.

    So how hard would it be to get DNA to link up in microgravity? Sure, there's more radiation around to blast things apart, but that might be a good thing -- you could get molecules you might not get otherwise without the blowing apart. Also, in microgravity, molecules can float around in 3 dimensions.

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
    1. Re:DNA in space? by Otter · · Score: 1
      Last I followed this (which was a while ago) the prevailing idea was that the sloshing around produced RNAs with catalytic activity, which enabled the cascade of new activities that eventually led to the DNA-RNA-protein system. In space, you might be able to get the same initial sequence but it's hard to see what it would then do out there.

      (Honestly, once you've dismissed the creationism/ID crowd and declared that there must be some scientific explanation for life, it remains that the current theories demand some ludicrously improbable sequence of events, regardless of which one you choose. So who knows?)

    2. Re:DNA in space? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be RNA and DNA exactly, if fact, it probably wouldn't be. Almost any self-replicating error-correcting organic molecule would do, we're just stuck on a local maxima.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    3. Re:DNA in space? by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, radiation is the first problem; there's a hell of a lot of organic-molecule-shattering 'waves of doom' in space, way more than on the surface of a planet that has the shielding of both an atmosphere and a magenetosphere[1].

      Second, tidal pools on a planet keep everything nicely together in the same general area, courtesey of Our Friend Gravity. Tidal pools, at least on Earth, also provide a very necessary solvent for the whole organic chemistry process -- water. No water, and pretty much all of the organic processes that we know about stop working; in fact, when you look at the chemistry, it almost seems that an oxygen atmosphere is optional, but that water is a base requiremet for life because of its properties as a solvent.

      So, no, it's doubtful that complex molecules like Keith Richards will form outside of a suitable gravity well, and doubly doubtful that complex organic molecules (e.g., DNA) will form without liquid water.

      [1] That's a magnetic field around a planet, not a hamster ball for Sir Ian McKellen.

      --

      --
      I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy .sig.
    4. Re:DNA in space? by SigILL · · Score: 2, Informative
      So how hard would it be to get DNA to link up in microgravity? Sure, there's more radiation around to blast things apart, but that might be a good thing -- you could get molecules you might not get otherwise without the blowing apart. Also, in microgravity, molecules can float around in 3 dimensions.

      They can do the same in water. However, one of the problems with trying to get organic chemicals in microgravity is that the cloud in which they're supposed to originate is very sparse. Thus, spontaneous creation of many of the chemicals we consider important to life simply takes longer than in a gravity well.

      Secondly, after having gone through all that trouble you have a big chance of them simply burning up on athmospheric entry.

      --
      Error: password can't contain reverse spelling of ancient Chinese emperor
    5. Re:DNA in space? by LordKazan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is no such thing as "ludacrously improbable" when it comes to cosmology - real world probabilities are tried in parallel not in serial.

      They worked out the probabilities for life as we know it occuring randomly - they were small per trial however you must apply the Law of Extremely Large Numbers - ie a huge ammount of trials. Turns out the number of stars likely to have planets in the habital zone overwhelmed the probability by about 10,000 planets likely to have life of some form.

      Don't try to fathom real world probabilities in terms of serial trials of flipping a coin.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    6. Re:DNA in space? by Otter · · Score: 1, Flamebait
      Turns out the number of stars likely to have planets in the habital zone overwhelmed the probability by about 10,000 planets likely to have life of some form.

      That's precisely my point -- once you're in the realm of multiplying an insanely large number pulled out of your ass by an insanely small number pulled out of your ass, it's arguably irrelevant that the number the OP is pulling out of his ass is even smaller.

      Occam's Razor went by the boards long ago on this front, for the reasons you say.

    7. Re:DNA in space? by lawpoop · · Score: 3, Informative

      "it almost seems that an oxygen atmosphere is optional,"

      In fact, Earth's atmostphere originally had no oxygen, until the first anaerobic microbes began producting oxygen as a by-product of their metabolism.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    8. Re:DNA in space? by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      "Secondly, after having gone through all that trouble you have a big chance of them simply burning up on athmospheric entry."

      But they wouldn't be rocketing down like a heavy meteor or spaceship. It would be more like slowly saturating the atmosphere of the planet. In fact, if they are formed in the planetary cloud, any rock or gas planet that forms would already be saturated with these chemicals.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    9. Re:DNA in space? by tutori · · Score: 1

      And then, once they had produced too much of it, proceded to choke on their own waste, wiping out a good portion of life on earth. (several times as a matter of fact)

    10. Re:DNA in space? by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 1

      Hence my comment. ;)

      --

      --
      I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy .sig.
    11. Re:DNA in space? by penguin-collective · · Score: 1

      I just thought of something while looking at the graphic -- what if RNA and DNA originally assemble in the pre-planetary cloud and hang around, falling into condensing planets and so forth?

      That's one hypothesis of how life may have started. Dust grains may have been involved, however.

    12. Re:DNA in space? by Nivag064 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On the Mir space station, they found mold growing on the outside of the space station.

      This is despite the vacuum and the exposure to extremes of temperature!


      -Nivag

    13. Re:DNA in space? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, no, it's doubtful that complex molecules like Keith Richards will form outside of a suitable gravity well, and doubly doubtful that complex organic molecules (e.g., DNA) will form without liquid water.

      Actually, given the additional "complex molecules" that have aggregated into Keith Richards over the last few decades, I'd say that the likelyhood of forming such a molecule inside a gravity well is a good example of how the odds defy our doubts. ;)

    14. Re:DNA in space? by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      Your error is claiming that the numbers are "pulled out of your ass" when it comes to the astronomers, physisics and biologists that calculated what i cited.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    15. Re:DNA in space? by rho · · Score: 1

      Tidal pools imply a satellite of significant size. So you've just limited the formation of life to a world with a large satellite.

      --
      Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
    16. Re:DNA in space? by lawpoop · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm gonna have to disagree with your comment. Oxygen is not 'optional' ,as you say, rather it's detrimental to the formation of life. Some have speculated that DNA-based life could not arise in an aerobic environment. It's just too desctructive.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    17. Re:DNA in space? by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Er, the role of oxygen in the establishment of organic life was well outside the scope of my analogy, but just to clarify -- the reason for an atmosphere has little to do with its oxygen content, and much to do with its radiation shielding effects.

      I agree that the anaerobic formation of life is a more plausible scenario, given how utterly caustic oxygen is (thanks to its valence electron configuration).

      However, given the dependence of organic molecules on that particular atom with atomic weight sixteen, I think you'd be hard-pressed to claim that all oxygen is detrimenal to the formation of life; redox reactions, as basic as they are, are still essential in organic chemistry. So, while an oxygen atmosphere would have likely destroyed early self-replicating molecules, they would never have formed without access to oxidized compounds.

      (As a footnote, I only *started* as a Chem major, and switched to Math, so my Organic is more than a little rusty).

      --

      --
      I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy .sig.
    18. Re:DNA in space? by Otter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're talking about the Drake equation, presumably? Sorry to burst your bubble, but those numbers are for the most part wild guesses. We're still speculating about how our own biochemistry arose, let alone any other planet's version -- how could there possibly be a firm number on that?

    19. Re:DNA in space? by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      You're not clarifying, you're confounding. Earlier, when talking about the origin of organic life, you said this:

      "...it almost seems that an oxygen atmosphere is optional, ..." [Emphasis mine]

      And then later when you are claiming to clarify, you say:

      "Er, the role of oxygen in the establishment of organic life was well outside the scope of my analogy,...
      I think you'd be hard-pressed to claim that all oxygen is detrimenal to the formation of life"

      I was originally talking about atmospheric oxygen, just like you were.

      I can't call you on your chemistry credentials, but maybe you should have taken more English, rhetoric, or logic?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    20. Re:DNA in space? by Rick.C · · Score: 3, Funny
      There is no such thing as "ludacrously improbable"

      IIRC, that was one of the speed settings on the Heart of Gold's throttle lever.

      --
      You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
      "Math in a song is good."-Linford
    21. Re:DNA in space? by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 1

      The original poster was talking about gravity wells.

      I made a side remark about oxygen, which was a half-joke.

      One poster got that joke, and replied.

      You didn't, so I clarified my viewpoint.

      Apparently you still don't get the joke, and maybe you should consider going out and getting a glass filled with a nearly ideal anaerobic environment for bacterial production. In fact, there's a handy word in English for such a useful tool of science: Beer.

      --

      --
      I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy .sig.
    22. Re:DNA in space? by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      ARgh! You got me at my own game. You won this round, but you haven't won the war! I'll get you yet!

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    23. Re:DNA in space? by wilec · · Score: 1

      "but that water is a base requiremet for life because of its properties as a solvent."

      Liquid hydrocarbons like methane are excellent solvents, and have a lower freezing point thus extending the range of possibilities on the lower end. Vapor states of these comparatively large molecule compounds are also excellent solvents. In temps/densities close to condensing they have more fluid like properties than the smaller molecules of water vapor, thus extending the range upward. The lower temperature points of state change for these compounds could provide a more effective and less reactive source of energy for a process like life in low energy environments. Plus these compounds themselves are rich sources of building material. I suspect it may be likely that there is life, even intelligent life that does not require water or oxygen at all. Heck it may even be more prevalent than the life we know.


      Matthew
    24. Re:DNA in space? by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 1

      The problems I see with methane as a base organic solvent is that it's a liquid at *very* low temperatures, it has a very low specific heat, and that it is nonpolar. A lot of the really useful things (from an organic chemistry perspective) about water as a solvent come from dipolar forces, which you lose with methane. Methane would be a good energy source, though.

      Gasses are not very ideal for organic molecule formation, if only because the dispersion of molecules promotes less mixing than a liquid state, and methane in a liquid state is very low-energy.

      I'm not saying that it's impossible, but that I see hydrocarbon-based organics as having a harder time up the food chain than us water-based ones.

      On the flip side, if we were to discover such a populaton of creatures, they would very likely piss gasoline, and our space program would get funded like nobody's business. ;)

      --

      --
      I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy .sig.
    25. Re:DNA in space? by wilec · · Score: 1


        Disallowing other forms of life because they do not have a water compatible chemistry is a bit of an anthropic argument. I do not have a lot of chemistry knowledge so I am hesitant to rattle on too much about details of intermolecular forces, polar, dipolar properties and such. I can see where the solubility of water in respect to other polar compounds, especially the alcohols, and being insoluble in nonpolar compounds would be of a benefit in our environment. The bonds between nonpolar molecules are weaker than those in polar molecules, the heat of vaporization is less, they precipitate out of solution easier, all problems in our environment. However in biospheres at extremely cooled temperatures where biochemical reactions are slowed down tremendously, they may be a benefit. On the same line compounds like hydrocarbons that are not stable in an oxidizing environment like ours be work well in the reducing environments that may exist on the giant planets or in gas clouds.

        I did not mean to imply that our organic chemistry would directly transfer to a hydrocarbon based one. I also did not mean to imply that methane was the only possibility there are plenty of other abundant hydrocarbon compounds like ammonia, ethane or even elemental hydrogen itself. I am sure much would need to be different. I simply meant that such may be possible. Isaac Asimov suggested that poly-lipids could form a substitute for proteins in a non polar solvent such as methane or even liquid hydrogen.

        I was looking at this from the perspective that there seem to be more low temperature thus low energy areas like planetary bodies or gas clouds than high ones like our own. Thus I was looking largely outside the range that water can exist as a vapor or liquid. I agree that in temperature, pressure and available external energy environment we enjoy that water is much more suitable, if indeed not the only possible, base for our specific organic chemistry. But for the largest part where I was looking liquid water based organic chemistry would not even be in the food chain, much less the top. The key argument is that there are more places like these than there sre those like our own.

        Matthew

  11. I think I'm desperate for entertainment... by mister_llah · · Score: 2, Funny

    I find myself strangely hoping that someone gives you some insightful karma for this...

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    1. Re:I think I'm desperate for entertainment... by setirw · · Score: 1

      Your wish was granted...

      Wow...

      --
      This message printed on 100% post-consumer recycled electrons.
  12. After further consideration... by mister_llah · · Score: 3, Interesting

    """
    The detection supports the widely held theory that many of the molecular building blocks of life were present in the solar system even before planets formed, thus assisting the initial formation of complex organic molecules and the start of life itself.
    """

    Wait, so finding organic molecules around a planet supports this how? Can we tell the age of those particles, or that stellar nursery? If we are to believe a lightning strike can create life from amino acids and things of this nature... why would this support that conclusion in particular?

    Maybe I'm missing the point. Perhaps someone can explain things to me?

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    1. Re:After further consideration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well basically the darwin force lets call it god assembles the molecules so that very unlikely events become possible. Then after much prayer the darwin force manages to protect the material while it freefalls down a few hundred miles and is unhurt.

      praise be the darwin force god....down with the other gods.

    2. Re:After further consideration... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The solar system in question has no planets yet.

    3. Re:After further consideration... by mister_llah · · Score: 1

      Right, so what we have is a possible single case scenario, but there is no evidence of when those aminos may have come from (could have been carried from another location) ... there are just so many variables, that I can't see how this would be anything but a very weak connection.

      --
      MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
      http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    4. Re:After further consideration... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think that's why they say that the discovery supports the theory instead of saying that the discovery proves the theory.

    5. Re:After further consideration... by brontus3927 · · Score: 2, Informative

      These chemicals were found in a dust cloud orbiting a young star. No planets have yet condensed out of the cloud. As such, the chemicals are there before the planets, like the theory says.

    6. Re:After further consideration... by brontus3927 · · Score: 1
      Actually, it's a pretty undeiable fact that these chemicals ARE present in that solar system BEFORE the planets have formed (because the chemicals are there and the planets are not).

      Just because it's possible that the theory is not true in all cases, this certainly supports that the theory is true in at least some cases.

    7. Re:After further consideration... by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are two points to this discovery. On the one hand, it demonstrates that organic precursor molecules can form in environments we simply thought impossible, or hadn't even thought of. Second, it means that such molecules could hitch a ride to a proto-Earth on comets and meteors, and thus be the source of the organic stew. What it really tells us is that the building blocks of life, if not life itself, are probably quite common, which raises the possibility that life itself may be relatively common. Even if it isn't life as complex as that which we find on Earth, one can probably safely assume that there are any number of planets out there where some pretty complex organic interactions are occuring.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:After further consideration... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Right, so what we have is a possible single case scenario, but there is no evidence of when those aminos may have come from (could have been carried from another location) ... there are just so many variables, that I can't see how this would be anything but a very weak connection.

      Another location? Like... where? Another star? That would still support the theory. It's possible they escaped from the gravity well of a planet in large enough quantities for us to detect from earth. Yet nevertheless we have organic molecules in a star system without planets.

      Here's the deal... theories make predictions, and you test those predictions with measured data. The theory predicts that you will find organic molecules in a star system that has yet to form planets. Here we have organic molecules in a star system that has yet to form planets. Thus it supports the theory. Could there be another explanation, a different theory for the same outcome? Of course! Yet other theories say that this would be unexpected, and we have here a theory that says it is expected. Is it possible that there is another explanation for the apparent time dilation we have seen in experiments? Of course, but relativity was the only theory predicting it.

      I can appreciate skepticism, but this without a doubt supports the theory that complex organic molecules can precede the formation of planets in a system. Without a doubt you shouldn't treat it as the final word, either, but to say this doesn't mean anything is to take skepticism to illogical levels.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    9. Re:After further consideration... by SamSim · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the most important part of the story. The cloud of organic particles waved at us.

  13. Made of star stuff by quokkapox · · Score: 1

    I think Carl Sagan preceded Moby in presenting that idea to popular culture. See Cosmos. I just re-watched this series and it's just as good 25 years after it originally aired...

    --
    it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
  14. Or Dirk Diggler's... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

    I'm a staaah, I'm a staaah, I'm a staaah. I'm a big, bright shining staaaah.

  15. Nah it's just... by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    Nah these are not the building blocks of future planet earths. These are the remants of destroyed planet earths. For a while the aliens were recycling the planets they were destroying but then the bottom fell out of the market for the raw materials, so they began dumping the refuse in rings around the suns where the planets once orbitted. THey are hoping that the market picks up.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Nah it's just... by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      You're not L Ron Hubbard by any chance, are you?

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    2. Re:Nah it's just... by LouisZepher · · Score: 1

      The Magratheans wouldn't have to worry so much about the economy though if they just returned the destroyed planets in exchange for the 0.05c deposit.

  16. Totally agreed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, this is OT... Knuth is NOT a christian...

    I completely agree with you. Yes indeed, your post was off topic.

  17. At least... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They don't have Seinfeld.

  18. That's a lot to get from an artist's impression! by mister_llah · · Score: 1

    Just imagine if you saw the actual spectrograph!

    oh... you were inspired.

    *runs off*

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
  19. Why mention something weakly supported? by mister_llah · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Right, but the support is so incredibly weak, why even mention it?

    That's like saying that because some unknown substance glows, it supports that it is radioactive, because other radioactive things glow.

    It also supports that it is a lightbulb.

    And also that it is hot... ... and many other things.

    *taps the subject*

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    1. Re:Why mention something weakly supported? by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      I think what they are claiming support for is the the theory that organic molocules form before planets. Since this is an example of a solar system with organic molocules and no planets...

    2. Re:Why mention something weakly supported? by brontus3927 · · Score: 1
      That's like saying that because some unknown substance glows, it supports that it is radioactive, because other radioactive things glow.

      Actually, this situation is more like saying we have a theory that radioactive substances glow, and we find a glowing radioactive substance.

    3. Re:Why mention something weakly supported? by MrP-(at+work) · · Score: 1

      Your posts on slashdot support the theory that you actually exist, but it cant be proven. And since a supported theory is weak to you, I must assume you dont exist and therefore your comments aren't real and I'm not replying to anyone.

      --
      [an error occurred while processing this directive]
    4. Re:Why mention something weakly supported? by mister_llah · · Score: 1

      The theory that I exist could be proven by meeting me. The scope is relatively small and the theory easily provable (unless you decide to get metaphysical and play at Descartes game, anyway) ...

      The theory of organic matter being present before planet formation, however, is larger in scope than a single element. The whole universe, which we can't even figure out where it ends, if it ends, if it is expanding, if so, how fast, etc... so it could very well be an ever-widening scope... potentially infinite elements.

      IMHO, Your comparison isn't just apples to oranges... it is comparing prokaryotes to automatic transmissions.

      --
      MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
      http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    5. Re:Why mention something weakly supported? by MrP-(at+work) · · Score: 1

      Even if I went up to you and shook your hand, it still doesn't mean you exist. It just means I'm crazy and I can see and touch people that aren't real.

      The only way to prove you exist to me is you give me 2 side-by-side comparisons taken at 2 different times of every single particle in the whole universe, and they have to be the same. If 1 particle is slightly off, you didn't prove anything!

      Nothing is real, I can't hear you, la la la la

      --
      [an error occurred while processing this directive]
    6. Re:Why mention something weakly supported? by Andy+Gardner · · Score: 1
      Your argument is ridiculous.

      The whole universe, which we can't even figure out where it ends, if it ends, if it is expanding, if so, how fast, etc... so it could very well be an ever-widening scope... potentially infinite elements.

      Wouldn't this suggest that in a infinite universe there would be infinite opportunities for the elements to all be present. This is the first time we've observed some of the required elements in forming star system.

      If these observations are correct, (gasses required to form organic matter found around a star much like our own in a region similar to earths) then it further supports the theory;

      "that many of the molecular building blocks of life were present in the solar system even before planets formed, thus assisting the initial formation of complex organic molecules and the start of life itself."

      Period. It doesn't prove it. It doesn't claim to.

    7. Re:Why mention something weakly supported? by LouisZepher · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase Adams:

      "It is known that there is an infinite number of worlds, but that not every one is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so if every planet in the Universe has a population of zero then the entire population of the Universe must also be zero, and any people you may actually meet along the way are merely the products of a deranged imagination."

  20. Life Around Other Stars by herwin · · Score: 2, Informative

    We're several years away from being able to do spectrographic studies of rocky planets orbiting other stars (or rocky moons), but once we reach that point, it will probably be only time until we detect free oxygen and/or other molecules that disappear rapidly in the absence of life.

    1. Re:Life Around Other Stars by Bob3141592 · · Score: 1

      We're several years away from being able to do spectrographic studies of rocky planets orbiting other stars (or rocky moons), but once we reach that point, it will probably be only time until we detect free oxygen and/or other molecules that disappear rapidly in the absence of life.

      This is exactly what we need, and that would be a far more meaningful obsrvation. Finding organic molecules in a protoplanetary nebula is neither unexpected nor particularly relavent to the question of extraterrestrial life.

      Of course, large amounts of atmospheric free oxygen would be a near conclusive sign of life. Any other kind of unstable molecule will be far more problematic as scientists try to device models where they could exist in the absence of life, and that's a complicate trial and error process, and the results will always be controversial until we can get there to make first hand (robotic hand, certainly) observations. I suspect that may never happen.

      We're getting there, slowly. I hope to live long enough to see this question answered.

      --
      In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
  21. Food Network... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    I think this article would be more credible if it was posted on the Food Network instead of Slashdot. What nerd/geek/techie would be interested in what's laying around the Intelligent Designer's kitchen?

    1. Re:Food Network... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you crazy? have you seen the flamewars about who's got the best cooking on Food Network around Slashdot? It's chemistry, it's process, it's algorithms with tasty results!

    2. Re:Food Network... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Of course, I'm crazy. I'm stuck at work with no work since no one is in the building. Go figure. :P

  22. Re:News from Fark. Stuff that we already read by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It's Not News, It's Slashdot.org

    Couldn't resist :)

  23. Life is software, not hardware by dtjohnson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Life is not the presence of particular molecules. Life is the plan by which the molecules are constructed into a living organism. Molecules without the plan by which they operate are no different than computer hardware without any software installed on it. Finding hydrogen cyanide and acetylene present around another star is more a comment on the improving ability to detect molecules at a distance than it is on the presence of the 'building blocks of life.' It would have been much more remarkable if they had NOT found those substances since they are composed of carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen which we would expect to be ubiquitous in the universe, based on our present knowledge. Claiming to have found the 'building blocks of life' around another star is just hype to help pump up the budget for next years work.

    1. Re:Life is software, not hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right. Let's just pull NASA's budget completely and start working on next year's fight against Intelligent Thought.

  24. Maybe. by RealProgrammer · · Score: 1

    We are made of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, phosphorus, sodium, iron, etc. Those building blocks are strewn throughout the universe, as far as we know. Now we think we see some complex, life-like compounds. We assume that means those formed where they are.

    But it's a common violation of scientific principles to assume that the conditions we see now are those that have always existed. It makes for neater theories, but counterexamples are ubiquitous.

    The FA merely suggests that DNA components could form in space. The same evidence suggests that if a planet is destroyed by catastrophic collision, it's hard to find the DNA afterwards.

    I hope we never get hit.

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
    1. Re:Maybe. by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      The individual elements are around in abundance, the interesting bit is the combination of appropriate elements and molecules in the appropriate conditions to form and then amino acids.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
  25. Guess I'm just I'm too skeptical... by mister_llah · · Score: 1

    I guess when your theories aren't even remotely provable (since we can't exactly fly around the universe and run tests on the present, much less on the past)... you take what you can get, but it just seems to be rather ridiculous to me.

    Practical space technology and findings interest me, but stuff like this... not so much. We'll get there, sure, we'll figure it out... and this kind of almost wild speculation, as it seems to me, might make good science fiction, but I'll stick to what we can test and prove.

    Don't get me wrong, I dream as much as the next guy, but there is a clear dividing line that should be erected between hard science and speculation (even educated speculation)...

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    1. Re:Guess I'm just I'm too skeptical... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would say dfficult to prove, not aren't even remotely provable. Labratory experiments can be and have been performed to demonstrate the possibility of certain organic molocules in the conditions believed to exist early in the life of the planet.

      As far as observing this process in actions, it is only a matter of finding planets at the various stages of the process and observing the expected chemical reactions. This will be easier as our ability to make the observations improves.

      In fact we are performing these observations on the past, due to the speed of light. However many light-years away the observed solar system is, that is how long ago the events we see now happened.

    2. Re:Guess I'm just I'm too skeptical... by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      I guess when your theories aren't even remotely provable (since we can't exactly fly around the universe and run tests on the present, much less on the past)

      WTF? We aren't physically flying around the universe like Buck Rogers when we do it, but we do "run tests on the past" just by performing spectroscopic analysis on light from distant sources.

    3. Re:Guess I'm just I'm too skeptical... by Mo+Bedda · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is really simple. Scientists made observations. They reported their results. The results were in line with predictions made by existing theory. Therefore, the theory is strengthened rather than weakened. This is the scientific method. The "wild speculation" that organic chemicals could exist around a star prior to planetary formation now has some more concrete evidence. Their observations were the test; their results are their proof. Sure their observations do not answer all the questions, but science never answers all the questions.

      People have been gazing through telescopes making observations of hundreds of years before there was "practical space technology". At one point, it was "wild speculation" that the Earth was not the center of the Universe. Building theories to explain observations is how science works. Hard science is driven by educated speculation. A little bit more of "science fiction" has slipped into the realm of "science fact".

    4. Re:Guess I'm just I'm too skeptical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are referring to Miller's experiment (which did produce two or three of the twenty-two amino acids found in proteins), the atmosphere used was consistent with what many scientists (at the time) thought was the composition of the early atmosphere. Researchers had found as early as the 1960s that this atmosphere was unrealistic. In fact the experiment was dismissed in a 1995 article by John Cohen in Science.

    5. Re:Guess I'm just I'm too skeptical... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      My point was not that the experiment was conclusive, just that it is possible to perform experiments in the first place. This makes the theory provable.

      I agree that the theory remains unproven.

  26. Some issues by Pedrito · · Score: 1

    Keep in mind that while this stuff is in the habitable zone right now, that doesn't mean anything will be there in the future. As we've seen from the 100+ planets already found, many systems apparently develop with Jupter-sized and larger planets in either close orbits or wildly eccentric orbits that will result in smaller planets in the habitable zone being either thrown into their host star or, more likely, expelled from their solar system.

    Factor into this that single cell "life" began on this planet almost as soon as the conditions were favorable, but it took another 2.5 billion for it to evolve into multi-cell life. That seems to indicate, to me at least, that multi-cell life is difficult and not necessarily a forgone conclusion when you have single-cell life. I suspect the number of planets with "life" as we know it, to be far fewer than a lot of people believe.

    1. Re:Some issues by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If ity is in a stable orbit, and as far as we can tell there are no large bodies towards it, we need to send as much junk as possible into there solar system. maybe, just maybe, if life does evolve they will find some of it and they won't have to wonder wether or not life has/does exist elsewhere in the galaxy.

      We read stories and play games where previous being leave artrifacts behind. Why can't we be those beings?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Some issues by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1
      As we've seen from the 100+ planets already found, many systems apparently develop with Jupter-sized and larger planets in either close orbits or wildly eccentric orbits that will result in smaller planets in the habitable zone being either thrown into their host star or, more likely, expelled from their solar system.

      Or our detection methods simply slant the results to systems like that.

    3. Re:Some issues by Pedrito · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or our detection methods simply slant the results to systems like that.

      Our detection methods slant towards larger planets, definitely. But the fact that most of those large planets are in highly eccentric orbits or close to their stars has nothing to do with the detection method. It appears to be the predominate result of solar system formation. Ours appears to be the exception, not the rule.

      Our detection methods could find Jupiter like planets in Jupiter like orbits, and they do. They're just few and far between.

    4. Re:Some issues by Shigeru · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't totally agree. Definitely, the extrasolar planets found by the radial velocity planet searches are largely close to their stars, but that's another observational bias. Not only do closer-in planets tug on their stars more (v ~ 1/r^1/2), but it takes longer for a large-separation planet to complete an orbit, and radial velocity teams don't report a planet until they've seen one orbit. Which means the time baseline of the surveys becomes important. The longest target stars have been monitered is 15 years or so. This is, not coincidentally, the orbital period of the largest-separation extrasolar planet known to date, 55 Cnc d (14.7 years, 6 AU). Also, the star 55 Cnc was being carefully monitered all this time in large part because it was known to already harbor a planet (55 Cnc b, has just a 15 day period, and was one of the first half-dozen extrasolar planets discovered).

      My point is that while the results of the radial velocity surveys are pretty complete within 3 or 4 AU or so, beyond this the results are heavily driven by observational bias. Not only do you need 15 years of data to close an orbit, you need enough data points to see a much fainter radial velocity signature. For comparison, the next furthest-out extrasolar planet is at 4.5 AU, and of the 136 extrasolar planets found by the radial velocity method, only 5 are beyond 4 AU (see the California and Carnegie planet almanac for details).

      Jupiter is in an orbit of 5.2 AU, taking 12 years to go around the sun. So I would submit we've found no planets of Jupiter-like mass at Jupiter-like orbits (closest would be 55 Cnc d, 6 AU, but--at least--4 times the mass of Jupier, or HD 50499, 1.84 Jupiter masses at 4.4 AU). And I'd say further that current observational techniques would really need to stretch to hit such a planet, so I don't think we're not finding them because they aren't there. (Plus, it's widely suspected that radial velocity teams know about a lot of these long-period planets, but are waiting to announce them until the orbits have been confirmed. All the rest of us can do is wait and see).

      As to the basic question of this thread, whether you can get other stellar systems similar to our solar system (namely, a rocky planet in a stable orbit in the habitable zone), I think that issue is nowhere near solved. Recent papers have shown that of nearby, sun-like stars, about 10-20% have a planet that can be detected with the radial velocity method (the exact percentage depends on the metallicty of the star). What that means is that we know between a tenth and a fifth of stars have a planet more massive than Jupiter within the inner 3 or 4 AU. That says absolutely nothing about the other 80-90% of stars. What fraction of these have a Jupiter-like planet in a Jupiter-like orbit is very much up for grabs. We know that it's unlikely for an earth to form in most of the planetary systems we've been seeing (migrating giant planets, or planets in eccentric orbits, would almost certainly disrupt the earth-wannabe). But again, that's only 10 or 20% of stars. So, it could very well be that 80-90% of stars have a rocky planet in the habitable zone. We don't know how common our solar system is yet, and it'll likely take future missions (Kepler, TPF, next-generation adaptive optics systems on ground based telescopes) to really find out.

  27. The universe is too big, old bean! by mister_llah · · Score: 1

    Difficult to prove? If it can't be physically manipulated and observed and tested... it can't be proven. Given the scope of the universe... I'd say you can't prove it.

    One (or even ten) cases will still lend only weak support, given this aforementioned 'scope of the universe'...

    Do you see what I am saying?

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    1. Re:The universe is too big, old bean! by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      If it can't be physically manipulated and observed and tested... it can't be proven.

      If you observe the process occuring it is a way of proving it. Just like we can prove that supernovas happen by observing one happen even if we can't induce a supernova in a labratory.

    2. Re:The universe is too big, old bean! by tutori · · Score: 1

      The problem with that is that we already know that life happened, we don't need to prove life's existence. we are interested in the causes of life. and by merely observing a supernova, you can prove nothing about what caused it.

    3. Re:The universe is too big, old bean! by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      You are missing the point. I did not claim that this story proved anything. My supernova example was to demonstrate that a theory can be proved my other methods than being "physically manipulated and observed and tested"

  28. MMMMMM CHEESE by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 1

    Mmm ... 52 crumbles of Bleu cheese

  29. ingredients for life by revery · · Score: 4, Funny

    To inhabitants of the T'nsha'grlsk galaxy this is hardly surprising. Scattered across their saucier-pan-shaped galaxy are planets containing the ingredients for Fetucinni Alfredo, Pork Tenderloin, Chicken Cacciatore, and in what will most likely result in a lawsuit should humans develop interstellar space travel, the McRib.

    When asked about the ingredients for Life, Ss's'krpwjdnq waved his third-dimension-bound tentacles wildly and secreted an information packed protein strand. While there is no English equivalent for his communique, a rough translation would be "Given the chance to eat a human, I would."

  30. So? Quaker Oats has know for years ... by joelsanda · · Score: 3, Funny

    The ingredients of Life.

    Sure as hell don't have to go that far out to get it - local supermarket has it!

    --
    The Luddites were ahead of their time.
    1. Re:So? Quaker Oats has know for years ... by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      Good thing those ingredients are available locally; I can't imagine how much it would cost to buy them near a star named "IRS 46."

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    2. Re:So? Quaker Oats has know for years ... by blincoln · · Score: 1
      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    3. Re:So? Quaker Oats has know for years ... by bobcat7677 · · Score: 1

      Seriously, I can't believe the parent was the only post to make a joke of the fact that the star's name happens to also be the acronym for the Internal Revenue Service.

      I fear the first people to try and settle this new found supposedly habitable spot in space will perish...by being TAXED to DEATH (by the local aliens or our own government...whichever comes first). Or maybe they will simply be victims of lethal hazing by the "Frat Boys" gang. Either way they DIE.

      Sorry, couldn't resist:)

  31. Re:tis the season by Enzo+the+Baker · · Score: 3, Informative
    Donald Knuth is a Lutheran, or at least goes to the First Lutheran Church of Palo Alto now and then. See his news page for his occasionally scheduled appearances to have informal talks about Bible verses.

    I suggest you look into two of his books, "3:16 Bible Texts Illuminated" and "Things a Computer Scientist Rarely Talks About".

    He gave some lectures about how he wrote "3:16", his motivations for doing so, and various thoughts about God. These lectures were the basis for "Things a Computer Scientist Rarely Talks About"

    --
    I may twist orthodoxy to partly justify a tyrant. But I can easily make up a German philosophy to justify him entirely.
  32. Re:ingredients for life...what about the Wine? by xoip · · Score: 1

    In vino veritas!

  33. It's all in Xenu! by Chas · · Score: 1

    My! What DO they teach you young Scientologists these days?

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:It's all in Xenu! by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 3, Funny

      My! What DO they teach you young Scientologists these days?

      Where to send the checks?

  34. Scope! Ze scope! by mister_llah · · Score: 1

    Regardless of that, if we can't observe more than a few, the support a find gives to the theory is so miniscule that it seems ridiculous to mention it.

    Anyway, that's all I have to say on the thread (barring any drastically new developments) ... cheers :)

    --
    MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
    http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
    1. Re:Scope! Ze scope! by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      If the theory is correct we will expect to find more examples of solar systems and planets that show the characteristics predicted by the theory as our ability to make these observations improves.

      In any case, it is only a matter of waiting for the results.

  35. Basic building blocks by thecpuguru · · Score: 1

    And all this time I thought the basic building blocks of Life were made by Lego....

  36. Complexity of DNA by 4d49434841454c · · Score: 1, Informative
    It should be noted how complex and extraordinary the properties are of DNA.

    A human's entire DNA unwound extend 185 billion kilometers

    A simple protien must have at least 100 amino acids bonded together in the correct sequence and there are 20 different amino acids that can be used. The amino acids must be left handed and not right handed. They also must be donded on left hand. The probability of the formation of a simple protien comes out to 1 in 1.28x10^175.

    1. Re:Complexity of DNA by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that protiens in their modern form formed directly from organic molocules. Every theory of biogensis I've ever heard of assumes that the original forms of life were vastly simpler than modern forms and evolve later into more complex forms.

    2. Re:Complexity of DNA by joeldg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not particularly directed at the parent post..

      I think what some of the posters here fail to understand is the entire thing with :

      infinite time
      infinite space
      infinite possibilities

      given those variables, I think it is entirely possible that we might be more "normal" than one would think considering we are made up of the this stuff and the fact that these things have a tendency to fall into place in certain ways naturally.

      I actually think it is an thought-cop-out to just declare a "designer" did something instead of coming to grips with the idea of trillions and trillions of stars and infinity.

    3. Re:Complexity of DNA by tutori · · Score: 1

      infinite time
      infinite space
      infinite possibilities
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we know none of these...

    4. Re:Complexity of DNA by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 2, Informative
      Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Really? Any idea?
      A human's entire DNA unwound extend 185 billion kilometers
      No it's not. The total length of the DNA in a human is probably less than a thousandth of this. The total length of unique DNA is probably of the order of a few meters in length, the rest is copies.
      A simple protien must have at least 100 amino acids bonded together
      have to? There is no law of biology that says anything of the sort. A protein is merely a long sequence of peptides by definition. A shorter sequence is called a peptide. Peptides, polypeptides and proteins can all serve different biological functions.
      The probability of the formation of a simple protien comes out to 1 in 1.28x10^175.
      Do you understand probability theory at all? Tell me, what is the probability of a 2 peptide sequence spontaneously forming in front of my eyes right now? Unless you have some kind of mathematical model, even a crude one, you can't assign probabilities in a meaningful way.

      You seem like someone who is out of their depth using words like "protien" (sic) and "donded" (sic). Maybe you should come back and post again when you've learned something about the subject.

    5. Re:Complexity of DNA by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1
      The amino acids must be left handed and not right handed.

      So you mean to say that life can only work with left-handed organic molecules? I wasn't aware that there was a preference like that built into the universe - wouldn't all our biological chemistry still work if everything was replaced with its stereoisomer? It sounds like you're assuming that all life must use the exact same biochemistry as life on Earth.

      The probability of the formation of a simple protein comes out to 1 in 1.28x10^175.

      Such an outrageously large improbability might be correct for a given protein springing forth in one step from constituent components, but I expect that there's a whole bunch of pathways (via assembly of smaller pieces) that could lead to the assembly of a given protein. These multiple pathways built from smaller, more probable, steps should drastically reduce the probability of a given protein being formed from its constituent parts.

      If I'm misunderstanding something here please clue me in. I'm not opposed to learning something new.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    6. Re:Complexity of DNA by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      Oops, sorry for the error in the next to last paragraph. That last sentence there should read "drastically increase the probability..."

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    7. Re:Complexity of DNA by joeldg · · Score: 1

      think about it...

      time as we know it, has to be infinite and unending/unbeginning.. some theorize markers, but time would have had to exist beforehand.

      space as we know it also has to be infinite, even by the theory that it is expanding at the speed of light = infinite. Mostly because as we approach the speed of light, we never quite get there because it is an asymptotic climb.

      I have never even heard of anything to refute the above two..

      based on those two thing, possibilities must therefore be infinite.

      so..

    8. Re:Complexity of DNA by joeldg · · Score: 1

      are you familiar with velocity?
      "time" is a factor. thus, without time, things don't, well.. do anything. (i.e. With lots of 'time', we could currently send a probe to another solar system..)

      as far as 'space', it is common to take into account all the matter, and that involves you and myself.. unless you are trying to tell me you are not a part of the universe?

      so, the reality is, there is only time and space, everything else happens within those two pillars of the universe.

    9. Re:Complexity of DNA by joeldg · · Score: 1

      as much as I would love to discuss "nothingness" with you..
      which oddly, I do agree with you.. energy is technically "nothing" as is "light"
      as far where everything came from, that is a question bigger than you or I and is mostly covered in a theory called the "big bang" which is a theory on a compressed universe (google 'nucleosynthesis') and speaks volumes about ideas for the origin, and the creation of a lot of this matter...
      For a brush up, see:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

      You are going to notice a prevalence of the terms "space" and "time" here a lot..

      Though, most of this topic should have been covered somewhere in Junior high, unless you went to a religious school, then it would have been brushed over in favor of a censored version they are legally obligated to cover.

    10. Re:Complexity of DNA by clambake · · Score: 1

      I actually think it is an thought-cop-out to just declare a "designer" did something instead of coming to grips with the idea of trillions and trillions of stars and infinity.

      Oh, coming to grips with infinity means a little bit more than you seem to think. Infinity, true infinity, means that there IS a designer... Because even if the possibility of him/her/it existing is one in infinity, then guess what... It's infinity we are dealing with.

      Of course the fact that there is also NOT a designer is also part of the while "coming to grips with infinity" thing too. Infinity is fun.

    11. Re:Complexity of DNA by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      What kind of horseshit is this supposed to be? Expanding space can still be finite, regardless of whether we can ever reach the "edge" of it.

      "based on those two thing, possibilities must therefore be infinite."

      This doesn't follow at all. Even assuming infinite time and infinite space, any possible event must still obey the laws of physics.

    12. Re:Complexity of DNA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that science generally frowned on infinity? And aren't the universe's age and dimensions finite at last estimate? As for infinite possibility, something called the laws of physics...

    13. Re:Complexity of DNA by joeldg · · Score: 1

      just following up..
      if you belive in ID, the we still run into the problem of who created the creator.. which becomes circular and a mess..

      you may think it is horseshit, you are fully in your right to think that.. but if you belive in ID, then who/what created the ID? In essence, science has cut out this messy "invisible hand in the sky" stuff and attempts to explain what we can see.. We may not always be correct, but we "can" self-correct, which in itself is leaps and bounds beyond a religious fanatic who is locked in his mental closet who worships ghosts and lives in fear of them.

      however, it does not change the fact that these things are true..
      Space "is" infinite, if you could fly to the edge of the universe in a second and continue at that speed, you could fly forever and never reach a boundary.. One thing we won't run out of is space..

      Time is the same way, it moves regardless of all other factors..

      You can read a lot about the "big bang" and other educated guesses on wikipedia and at your local library...

      I don't have the time to rehash it all here for you..

    14. Re:Complexity of DNA by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      "I don't have the time to rehash it all here for you."

      But you do have time to completely fail to understand what I wrote, instead wasting my own time by making the point that the non-validity of ID somehow makes your claims true.

      Science does not bend to your whims, regardless of infinity. And since I'm an atheist who believes ID is at least as much horseshit as you're spewing here, don't bother bringing it up to bolster your claims.

  37. Carbon Dating by qeveren · · Score: 4, Informative

    Carbon-14 (the radioactive isotope of carbon used in carbon dating) is continuously generated on Earth at a fairly constant rate, by the interaction of neutrons (from cosmic rays) with nitrogen (and occasionally oxygen and carbon) atoms. So, 'new' carbon-14 atoms are being made all the time.

    Because it has a relatively constant abundance in nature, living things should also maintain the same ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-14 in their tissues... until they die, at which point they're no longer taking in new carbon from the environment. Then the carbon-14 starts to decay (with a half-life of ~5700 years), but the carbon-12, which is stable, remains. Measuring this ratio can give an approximation of the length of time since the creature died.

    The carbon-12 in your body is stable, and could very well pre-date the solar system. Carbon-14 doesn't hang around very long, in astronomical timescales. :)

    --
    Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    1. Re:Carbon Dating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awesome! I've always wondered how carbon dating worked -- never knew until now. Thanks (sometimes reading Slashdot *is* worthwhile!)

    2. Re:Carbon Dating by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Now that you've told us about carbon dating, can you tell me where in the world is Carbon Sandiego?

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    3. Re:Carbon Dating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A small addition to this. I do not think the C14/C12 ratio in living organisms is "the same" as in the environment. I'm currently actually measuring C13/C12 ratio's in plants because depending on various factors, they change. For one thing, the carbonfixing enzyme has a specifity for lighter carbon, so C12. And also diffusion/dissolving in water etc etc is slightly different for the different isotopes. It probably won't matter a lot for dating things however. It probably won't affect the dating accuracy much I guess as the discrimination is way below 1%.

  38. Is this one of those by NidStyles · · Score: 0

    just add water recipes?

    --
    Yes, I said it.
  39. 185 billion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I dunno, but that sounds way off to me. I question if lining up all the atoms that make up a single human being would extend to a billion, let alone dna being 185 billion. But then again, I'm sleepy.

  40. Re:statistical black hole by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The smallest human chromosome is a chain of 50 million base pairs (over an alphabet of 4: ACGT). 4^1,000,000 is roughly 10^608,000.

    No one has ever suggested that a fully formed human chromosome could just pop into existance out of constituant elements. Your example is a straw man.

    No explanation has yet been demonstrated of how the initial
    chemical constituents formed to produce a DNA/RNA based life form.....No, a lightning strike/spark on an early 1950's high scholl science project that produces some organic slime is not the same thing.


    Yes it danm well is, sunshine. That experiment proved that these elements, amino acids etc, were almost guaranteed to have existed in abundance in the early earth. These elements ARE the building blocks of life.

    Take a look a a model where a soup of these elements exists, add in factors, look at the probabilites, then multiply by the collasal timescales and particle counts involved and you'll quickly realise that not only was it likely that life evolved out of slime or pools around geysters, it was practically inevitable.

    Go back to Kansas and take last years flu vaccine, and go pray to whatever straw man is up there in the sky. We'll be over here in the Age of the Enlightenment if you'd care to join us.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  41. Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually the borderline between gas and solid is somewhere around Uranus.

  42. In a few billions years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like a Sci-Fi Original movie presentation. "The Bathroom Bleu Cheese."

  43. Re:statistical black hole by GeffDE · · Score: 2, Informative

    You and your entropy. Entropy only means that chaos increases if no energy is expended to order the system. Think about a messy room (your mother's basement?). It's going to be messy until someone gets fed up with the smell of rotting pizza crusts, at which point they will expend energy and order the system. The entropy of the room decreases because energy was infused into the system. Entropy always increases, but only on a universal scale because no energy can enter or leave the universe. There is no other system of which that is true.

    So now, we can move on to molecular biology. The two abstract things you need for life are the ability to get energy from your environment and a way to order yourself. DNA and proteins do this. Lab experiments have shown that ammonia, water, oxygen and methane, in a closed flask, will generate amino acids if they twirl them around enough and give them some energy (your lightning strike). If these amino acids can make an energy gradient by harvesting electrons from something common on a primordial earth, like Hydrogen Sulfide, then you have energy. And if get an amino acids that can store its code on something like DNA...you have life. Now, that's a whole lot of ifs. And, taken together, a very low probability. But, like someone else mentioned, these small molecular reactions would be going on thousands of time a second with a hundreds of moles of materials over a billion years. That's a ludicrous number of chances for something to get it right. And the thing is, once it's right, there is no need for it to happen again. Once you have the system that maintains order and a source of energy, you are good to go. It's the miracle of life.

    --
    It has been a nervous year, with people beginning to feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.
  44. It is agreed in all probability by Dark+Coder · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'll point out the criteria to a successful adenine (a component of DNA) creation as I recall from various scientific sources (Intelligent Design not withstanding):

    1. Gravity of at least 0.4 G is a requirement (micro-gravity need not apply here as a recent ISS scientific experiement shown with regard to catalyst of acytelene/water/hydrogen under electric sparks/shocks)

    2. Swirling motions (tidal pool is nature's best liquid/air agitators)

    3. Minimal radiation (asinine will not remain cohesive for long under gamma bombardments)
            This means a heavy shielding must be in place, which means dense air and/or planet

    4. Lightning... the very most improbable of all aspect of the building block starter. It's gotta strike at the right place and the right time, preferably near the tidal pool.

    I'd gotta hand it to mother nature and God, we are one lucky fools on this unqiue planet, Earth.

    1. Re:It is agreed in all probability by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1
      asinine will not remain cohesive for long under gamma bombardments
      asinine: adj. devoid of intelligence

      Am I missing the joke?

    2. Re:It is agreed in all probability by Stripe7 · · Score: 1

      Gamma Ray Bursters? They would tend to destroy all complex forms within their path.

    3. Re:It is agreed in all probability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the while screaming "Adenine Smash!"

    4. Re:It is agreed in all probability by Dark+Coder · · Score: 1

      Yes... it's a brainfart of mine...

  45. Stanley Miller probably rigged it! by Iwishyouhadaclue · · Score: 1

    Wonder how many beakers of premeasured chemicals existed in the pre-biotic soup? Just because you have the basic chemical compounds lying around won't get you DNA. Read Behe's book, don't be afraid! G

    1. Re:Stanley Miller probably rigged it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Read Behe's book..."

      Yeah, I've read it. It's pretty funny. Not ha-ha funny though, just funny.

  46. Re:statistical black hole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are referring to Miller's experiment, the atmosphere that was used was a mixture of methane, ammonia, and water vapor. However, as late as the 1960s scienists were learning that this mixture was inaccurate. Current research indicates that the early atmosphere was comprised primarily of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water vapor. When the experiment is repeated with this atmosphere, it yields cyanide and formaldehyde, which are not known for being friendly to proteins. It is unfortunate that this experiment continues to be perpetuated as 'the way' to form proteins, especially after it was dismissed by an article by John Cohen in Science in 1995.

  47. Re:statistical black hole by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1
    No explanation has yet been demonstrated of how the initial chemical constituents formed to produce a DNA/RNA based life form.
    That's pretty disingenuous, to start off talking about human genomes and then slip to "DNA/RNA based life form". I expect that the earliest DNA based life had much shorter genomes than humans. I expect you already knew that but chose to talk about the human genome anyway as if it just appeared whole from nowhere.
    If these "building blocks" spontaneorsly (sic) construct meaningful strands of DNA
    I'm not sure anyone claims fully working organisms appeared spontaneously from so-called building blocks. And "meaningful" isn't really what we're talking about. Today we can assign a meaning to DNA strands based on their interpretation as codons. But early on strands of RNA or DNA didn't have to work the same way. It is known that RNA can act directly as a catalyst in chemical reactions. I find it plausible that some early combination of compounds could by chance serve to catalyze their own synthesis and once this has happened I'd expect to start seeing competition and natural selection between different autocatalytic sets leading to the formation of more complex autocatalytic sets, possibly involving RNA and DNA.
  48. you missed the point by geekoid · · Score: 1

    They may have found the requirements for life.

    please mod parent "-1 analogy sucks".

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:you missed the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you care to differeniate between 'requirements' and 'building blocks' for life? Either way, TFA is trying to make a single molecule into a black monolith complete with a musical score.

      PS not the original poster...

    2. Re:you missed the point by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

      Ah, but sir, how do we define the requirements for life to form when we cannot define the minimum requirements for something to be living?

      Somewhere out there, there could be a lifeform whose genetic code is made of, lets just say for example (i'm no biologist) packets of carefully-cut carbon tubes whose length determines what gene they code for? That they require ice to live?

  49. Replace "borderline" with "interval" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why don't you fix the one word error instead of typing 2 paragraphs? "Where water exists in the interval between gas and solid".

    BTW, borderline between gas and liquid is 100 C at standard pressure, which would exclude Earth from the habitable zone. That was the point of the grandparent, and it flew 1 mile above your head.

  50. good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In another billion years Bush will be waiting and poised to abduct the newly formed inhabitants.

  51. Re:statistical black hole by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1
    If you're going to argue with these guys it helps if you can take the moral high ground. It doesn't serve your cause when you say things like
    Go back to Kansas and take last years flu vaccine, and go pray to whatever straw man is up there in the sky.
    where you use the term "straw man" in the very same sentence that you essentially argue against a straw man. There isn't much content to Creationism and ID so how hard can it be to keep track of the fact that supporters of these theories have been talking about "micro-evolution" for decades. Jokes about last year's flu vaccines are as stupid as comments about the spontaneous formation of human genomes from amino acid soup.
  52. Re:statistical black hole by geekoid · · Score: 1

    "There is no other system of which that is true. "
    Would vibrations from another dimension still be considered within the universe?

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  53. Re:statistical black hole by penguin-collective · · Score: 1

    Random trial and error seems our of the question.

    Yes, that's why the actual explanation is called "evolution": it starts with small, simple self-replicating systems that gradually become more and more complex through replication and selection.

  54. Re:statistical black hole by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

    When the experiment is repeated with this atmosphere, it yields cyanide and formaldehyde, which are not known for being friendly to proteins. It is unfortunate that this experiment continues to be perpetuated as 'the way' to form proteins, especially after it was dismissed by an article by John Cohen in Science in 1995

    Given the unscrupulous nature of most intelligent designers, I'm going to have to request that you back up this statement with a reference. In paticular some kind of scientific paper that was written by a professional and not a zealot.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  55. I, for one... by catmistake · · Score: 1

    ...welcome our new habitable zone habituating building blocks of life leaders.

  56. Real numbers by Stripsurge · · Score: 1

    Ok. So the human genome is ~ 3.2 billion base pairs long.
    In helical form every 10 base pairs is 3.32nm long.

    so 3.2e9 bp / (10 bp/turn) * 3.32e-9 m = 1.06m

    since we have 2 genome copies in us double that number to 2.12m

    now there's ~50 TRILLION cells in the human body. This number seemed to vary a lot.

    2.12m * 50e12 = 106e12m
    =106e9 km

    so 106 billion km by my count or approximately 4 light DAYS!

  57. Re:statistical black hole by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

    If you're going to argue with these guys it helps if you can take the moral high ground.

    ID'ers have to be ridiculed. Engaging in any kind of rationale debate with them simply plays into their hands. If you treat their arguments like you would any serious debate, you're simply giving some kind of legitimacy to them. People won't hear your deconstruction. They'll hear a debate, and assume that ID is debatable, which it isn't. It's laughable.

    I'd rather not sit back and watch the last 300 years of the enlightenment be publically shat on by fundamentalists. I might not live in the US, but if it falls to theocracy, my country could be next.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  58. Re:statistical black hole by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

    I think the amount of rational debate will reduce signifigantly once the next story (in the Mysterious Future) goes live...

  59. Re:statistical black hole by rbanffy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Your post implies the simplest viable life form is DNA based with highly specialized structures like ribosomes when, in fact, they are not required to form from the primordial soup.

    Life can start simple. A single molecule that reacts with other molecules around it and makes imperfect copies of itself is enough. Given time, all suitable molecules will be used and live, even if primitive, will be everywhere.

    Since the copies are not perfect, mutation does happen and you will have a lot of different "copiers" in your soup, some better that the others, some building more complex structures that can, in turn, copy themselves.

    I agree with you. Expecting cell based lifeforms in the first week of a biosphere is ludicrous, but you are wrong. Cells, nuclei and DNA are only one way of life to express itself. It happens to be the way we know because once a certain kind of life dominates, there is little space left for other forms. It happened here.

    There are sure other forms of organization that happened all over the place. Remember: billions of places over billions of years make a lot of attemps on life.

  60. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  61. adenine is not complex by Quadraginta · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Complex really means something like DNA or a protein, with tens of thousands of atoms in it, not a molecule as simple as a single nucleotide or one amino acid, with a dozen or so.

    It isn't really the step from the simplest of molecules, like water, to slightly more complex molecules, like amino acids, which is the problem. Experiments starting with Stanley Miller's have shown this is an easy step.

    Very likely the tricky step is forming an enclosed system in which information is passed back and forth from some information-storage molecule like DNA to some actuator molecules, like proteins. Not only have we never seen such a system, outside of life and deliberately-constructed life analogues, but we have no idea how it could even come about.

    It's hard to even imagine a plausible evolutionary sequence that leads from random organic molecules to this kind of system. The problem is that the benefits of being "alive", in particular being able to reproduce yourself are clear, but it's hard to see any benefits to being "halfway alive", e.g. to having half of the necessary molecules for reproducing yourself. That makes it hard to imagine any intermediate steps between non-life and life that would be favored by natural selection. And if there aren't any good intermediate stages, then life has to originate all at once, zap, in some wildly unlikely coming together of an entire living system. This is almost equally hard to swallow (unless you want to invoke the hand of God).

    A good analogy is with wings: how do wings evolve? The problem is that on first glance it doesn't seem useful to have only one wing, or wings too short to lift your mass. So how could a wingless creature evolve by small stages towards having wings? It would seem that wings would have to originate all at once, zap, in some wildly-unlikely set of mutations that would give a species wings in one generation.

    However, I believe the current belief is that wings started off as cooling fins, or possibly steering vanes for animals that leaped through the air. In which case, of course small fins or vanes are useful, and one can see the intermediate stages that would allow full wings to evolve gradually. What's needed in evolutionary biology is some similar insight into how certain groupings of molecules well short of what we'd call a living system could, nevertheless, have an evolutionary advantage.

    What's also needed is some idea of why we don't see this kind of process going on all the time on Earth. Why don't we see things halfway to living all the time in the muds and stagnant ponds of the Earth? One possible answer is that the best conditions for the evolution of life (e.g. no free oxygen) are no longer present.

    1. Re:adenine is not complex by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Interesting
      It's hard to even imagine a plausible evolutionary sequence that leads from random organic molecules to this kind of system. The problem is that the benefits of being "alive", in particular being able to reproduce yourself are clear, but it's hard to see any benefits to being "halfway alive", e.g. to having half of the necessary molecules for reproducing yourself. That makes it hard to imagine any intermediate steps between non-life and life that would be favored by natural selection. And if there aren't any good intermediate stages, then life has to originate all at once, zap, in some wildly unlikely coming together of an entire living system. This is almost equally hard to swallow (unless you want to invoke the hand of God).

      I'm not sure what half-way alive even means. If you start with the premise that you have some primitive self-replicator, then being "alive" (as we understand modern organisms to be) might not even apply. And, as with all physical processes, abiogenesis would not be a completely random series of events. Chemistry and the laws of physics would still apply, and thus, by the very nature of organic chemistry, some combinations are going to be more "favored" than others. You have to discard notions of what life has been for the last 3.5 to 3.8 billion years. Primitive self-replicators more than likely relied upon relatively simple interactions, and even such things as division could have been mechanical (ie. wave motion). We know many chemical processes that in some way or another resemble living systems; fire and crystal formation come to mind, and at the end of the day, life, no matter how simple or complex, works on the basic principle of converting chemical energy.

      The point of all of this is that once you have the ball rolling, and you start having complex organic molecules capable of some form of replication, then the underlying assumption is a run-away effect, that these proto-replicating molecules will start competing for resources, and that certain molecules will have, due to imperfect replication (which is what evolution is all about at the heart of it), a greater ability to access resources.

      This is, of course, always going to be speculative. The earliest self-replicators were not the kinds of entities that would ever leave direct fossil evidence, and the first organisms that did leave evidence (mainly by their waste; oxygen) were already pretty darned advanced. It's quite conceivable that there might be a number of ways to go from an organic chemical brew to living systems. Organic chemicals do all sorts of strange things when introduced to energy, and if there's one thing that the early Earth did not lack, it was sources of energy.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:adenine is not complex by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      >The problem is that on first glance it doesn't seem useful to have only one wing, or wings too short to lift your mass.

      PENGUINS!

      The rest of my reply is a little tautological: if you have a bunch of molecules that are halfway alive, groupings that have characteristics that allow them to last longer... last longer. And after a while, they're all that there is, because they've outlasted the others.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  62. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  63. Wow! /.'s religion has moderator acolytes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unbelievable that the parent's post got modded "flamebait". Where? Pick the parts from it and show us where. You can't without shining the light on yourself...

    As an inpartial observer to /., it's careless application of suppresion controls like this which illustrate an even greater influence at work amongst the /. faithful - their own religion; a religion even more suppresive of free thought and the pursuit of honest understanding than the very deistic religions they claim partake in such behaviour. Oh, the hypocrisy...

  64. An in related news... by kemosabi · · Score: 1

    WalMart has announced plans to open a supercenter in the vicinity of the store in 2100.

    1. Re:An in related news... by kemosabi · · Score: 1

      Argh. Make that "the vicinity of the star". Damn.

  65. It's not a dupe, it's a replicating meme by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1

    It's not a dupe, it's a replicating meme, like:
    In Soviet Russia, dupes post slashdot editors

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
  66. right here in fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  67. Article Outlines Current Theories on Start of Life by Quirk · · Score: 1
    PLoS Biology has a current article that looks at the theories purporting to lay out the conditions necessary to life jump starting on Earth.

    Jump-Starting a Cellular World: Investigating the Origin of Life, from Soup to Networks gives a quick overview and update on the most recent research.

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
  68. preemptive strike by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    if there is the possibility of life there, we must supernova their sun before they try to crush man-kind. let's face it, it's us or them... THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:preemptive strike by marct22 · · Score: 1

      But don't we want to lop their heads off so we gain their power? WWCMD? (or for the tv crowd, WWDMD?)

  69. 375 light years away by evilandi · · Score: 1

    Since when did 375 light years away classify as "nearby"?

    Okay, so that's not big in galactic terms, let alone in universal terms, but "nearby" suggests that we actually have a chance in hell of visiting it. We do not. 375 light years away is well beyond any reasonable trip distance using any well-researched technology for the next few hundred years, at least. Even then, it's not doable in a person's single lifetime. You'd have to have a multi-generational expedition.

    --
    Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
  70. Swirl by HermanAB · · Score: 1

    So, they detected a galaxy swirl in the cauldron of life. Now where is the ladle and the god stirring it?

    --
    Oh well, what the hell...
  71. Yes, but to be fair by phorm · · Score: 1

    What was before the big bang. How about before that. And before that?

    Basically they're saying that there are some things that are beyond/too-big-for human understanding. Certainly most people I know tend to get headaches thinking deep into the concept above, and the concept of ultimate original and infinity tend to how we define our lives and the passing thereof.

    Personally I think you're free to think as you wish, so long as it doesn't involve blowing somebody else up to be with 15 virgins or whatever in the afterlife, but given that the scope of human intelligence and unstanding probably has limits it's not really fair to get angry with somebody for expressing that an answer is beyond theirs in understanding.

    1. Re:Yes, but to be fair by ozydingo · · Score: 1

      It's 15 Virginians, you asshole! How dare you defile what we have created!

      No? Robin Williams live on Broadway? No?

  72. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  73. Re:statistical black hole by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 1
    Engaging in any kind of rationale debate with them simply plays into their hands
    Think about your audience. They fall into 3 types and you have a different effect on each.
    1. Those who are confident of the correctness of evolution. Your comments may entertain them.
    2. Those who are confident of the incorrectness of evolution. Your comments will just serve as more demonstration that supporters of evolution are the spawn of Satan etc. This probably doesn't bother you but their replies may entertain you.
    3. The group that matter - those who can be swayed one way or the other. They see arguments repeated by creationists without well argued rebuttal. Eventually they will wonder about the lack of rebuttal and end up creationists.
    So you have to weigh up the importance to you of entertaining like minded people, entertaining yourself, and actually making a difference.
  74. Re:statistical black hole by abborren · · Score: 1

    Entropy does not mean amount of chaos. Entropy can increase while the amount of disorder decreases (e.g. crystal forming). Here is a link to more information.

    --
    ><////>
  75. Re:statistical black hole by GeffDE · · Score: 1

    Yes, chaos/disorder as entropy is a simplification, but in the context of the post of I was replying to, it is a simplification that makes sense. All the linked article states are esoteric regions where the entropy-chaos simplification breaks down. On something as "simple" (thermodynamically speaking) as basic biochemical processes, entropy really does equate fairly well with disorder. The similitude breaks down on barriers between physical states (freezing/melting; concentration of a solution to saturation; etc), but none of those are encountered within a cell, or within the "operational range" of biological reactions.

    --
    It has been a nervous year, with people beginning to feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.
  76. cyanide... by xushi · · Score: 0, Troll

    so does that mean our body has 14% cyanide ? O_o /me is scared

  77. Cochrane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe Zephram Cochrane will be born well within your "next few hundred years".

    Or look back a few hundred years and compare what was "well-researched technology" then with what we have now. Or go back 60-70 years and compare what we know about nuclear pysics now and then. Do you know where quantum research is or will be by the end of even 2006?

  78. Obscure reference alert! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I the only one reminded of the Smoke Ring from Niven's "The Integral Trees"?

  79. Aliens? Whatever... by Busy · · Score: 1

    I filter at 4, so forgive me if soomeone already said this. Is the only thing this makes anyone think of is maybe there's life there? If this planet has hostpitable conditions for life as we know it, then it's probably a safe bet that we could attempt to live there without too much trouble. (Well, besides getting there in the first place.)

    Nothing lasts forever, even Earth. We've probably got LOTS (and LOTS) of time, but for us to survive we're going to have to get on some other planets eventually. I like the idea.

    --
    Think of someone with average intelligence. Now think 1/2 the world is dumber than that guy.
  80. well, yes by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

    Of course. I'm not doubting the forces of evolution at all, and I don't know any other way in which life can get started.

    What I'm saying is that, until we have a good idea how a chemical system can evolve from non-life to life, we will not have a good idea about (1) what the good conditions for the origin of life are, and (2) what the "signposts" are that suggest the existence of life, and (3) what alternative forms of life there might be, other than the carbon-based DNA/protein stuff we know.

    It's like this: because we know what a computer is in the abstract sense, e.g. a Turing machine, we can imagine many different instantiations or realizations of a computer. Analog, digital, based on tubes, transistors, steam valves and pipes, with this or that logic, et cetera and so forth.

    But we don't know what life is like in the abstract. This is reflected in the fact that we don't know how life can be constructed, deliberately or through evolution, from non-life. We really only know what life is like in its Earthly manisfestation. We have only the fuzziest of notions what a different implementation of life would be like. So we are severely handicapped when it comes to looking for life elsewhere. Basically, we don't really know what we're looking for, aside from life that looks like our own.

    You might say, to continue the geeky analogy, that life is so far a mostly "closed-source" application. We have many compiled applications to examine, but no source code, and only the vaguest idea how the "compiler" might work. (By the way, in this context I don't mean that we don't know how to "write the program" for making a cell from another cell, or for making a cell function properly. I mean we don't know how to "write the program" that makes a cell from scratch.)

  81. Proof! by Mr.+Otis · · Score: 1

    Like finding a tree is evidence that houses build themselves.

    --
    "Villains, I say to you now: Knock off all that evil!" -- The Tick