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Blizzard Responds To Gay Guild Debate
Edge Online reports that Blizzard has responded to the issues raised by a gay guild trying to recruit in public chat. From the article: "We encourage community building among our players with others of similar interests, and we understand that guilds are one of the primary ways to forge these communities. However, topics related to sensitive real-world subjects -- such as religious, sexual, or political preference, for example -- have had a tendency to result in communication between players that often breaks down into harassment." We discussed this story when it first came up last week.
", we prohibit mention of topics related to sensitive real-world subjects in open chat within the game, and we do our best to take action whenever we see such topics being broadcast. This includes openly advertising a guild friendly to players based on a particular political, sexual, or religious preference,"
You decide upon your political allegiances
You decide upon your religion beliefs
You do not Choose your sexual preference .
I no more chose to be straight than a gay person chose to be gay
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
I see tons of pro-Christian conversations and Guild named all night long when I play. Blizzard never shuts them the hell up or takes action to remove these offensive-to-me names.
Blizazard's perception is that of homophobes. I can't see them any other way with this type of behavior.
- Posting anonymously so their GMs don't *find* some reason to kick me out of the game.
This argument is sometimes used to justify prejudicial behavior. In this case, it's being used to try to prevent it, and it's still wrong. Basically, "she was dressed like a whore, so she deserved to get assaulted" is the line of reasoning being used.
If the guild's recruiting has the -potential- to incite prejudicial comments among the immature and clueless, then they shouldn't be allowed at all? No. It's always the transgressor's fault. Always.
ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
It's really a sensitive topic. It'd be like having a guild comprised of black or black-friendly people. It would prompt political debate on whether or not black people should be able to live without asshole rednecks declaring jihads on their asses. Same thing with gays.
And, really, who wants an argument?
If this guy used any more grovelling, shameless weasel words in that pathetic excuse for an excuse, he would surely have reverted back to the protoplasmic ooze from which he is comprised.
And anyway... I can understand Blizzard's positon. I mean, you wouldn't be able to use 'camping fag' as an insult anymore, and that could cause the world of online gaming to grind to a halt.
With that small bit of clarification - "religious, sexual, or political preference" - I wonder if they actually enforce this policy uniformly for all of the above. Do they shut down guilds that align themselves with Christians, Jews, Islam, libs/dems, left/right, etc? If not, then you've gone from potential harassment and being singled out by other players to definite harassment and being singled out by Blizzard.
Long signatures suck.
If this really is the policy that applies to everyone and Blizzard's just saying "keep to the guild recruitment forum", that's really just kind of reasonable and I can't really get upset about this. But if the GLBT guild is getting slammed with rules that no one else is obligated to follow, that's unconsciable and I'm amazed Blizzard would act in a way that's such an overt slap in the face to a nontrivial portion of their members.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
... sensitive real-world subjects -- such as religious, sexual, or political preference, for example -- have had a tendency to result in communication between players that often breaks down into harassment.
So my question is, why haven't they taken any action against the Christian guilds? Nothing against Christian guilds, but they obviously exist and it seems no action has previously been taken regarding their existence before this GLBT debacle. Personally, I think Blizzard is blowing this issue since they never took action on 'sensitive real-world subjects' before this point, atleast with religious guilds, so it definitely seems that they are applying a double-standard here. Given the immature atmosphere of any online game, having a guild of like-minded folk whos first reaction to any intelligent piece of personal information is NOT to curse and mock the individual, well, that seems like something that should be encouraged rather than dismissed. Otherwise, Blizzard should start the Great Guild Purge of 2006 and get cracking on those religious guilds (and if they exist, political guilds, never seen any though) as well as any other 'sensitive real world topics' instead of their current method of selective enforcement.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
It's a game - the reason you're playing it is to escape reality. Why would you try and bring real world issues into it? Just shutup, and enjoy the game. Blizzard certainly has two feet to stand on regarding this issue. Do you really want to see a guild war between the Pro Lifes and the Pro Choices?
Personally, I think MMORPGs should make every effort to allow people to group together in any way they want. Gay, anti-gay, pro or anti-(*insert*race*here*), political or whatever. They already have a TOS that forbids harrasment of other players, but they (Blizzard) don't want the headache of enforcing it. Easiest way out: ban anything controversial.
In the end, they are excluding certain individuals and groups, thus showing prejudice. Shame on them.
Though they are paying customers, WoW players are tenants of the virtual property owned by Blizzard. They have the right to welcome, tolerate, or decry whatever kind of behaviour they wish.
WoW players are not citizens, they are guests who must abide by the law of the land.
I'm all for free speech and the right to congregate, recruit, and broadcast, but I think Blizzard is well within their right to dissolve whatever guilds they want for whatever reason they wish. The situation is akin to putting up political posters in the lobby of a hotel - it's the establishment's right to do it, but it might dissuade people from staying.
Just making sure . . . you realize that that website is a satire, right? I think the polemicized Slashdot population might not realize that. It's not a real church. Not that there aren't Christians who really think like that, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are a minority.
I find it odd that their policies say they may suspend people if their character/guild/pet name contains a reference to sexual orientation, but the worst that happens to a name that contains a reference to religion (covered under "inappropriate") is a warning.
"The knights of the White Dragon are looking for new members, we are a guild centered around white christian gamers of conservative viewpoints with strong sense of racial pride"
Then when someone protests shut down all arguement with:
"We're already taking down Rag and don't mind letting you leech tier 1 epics on the weekly runs as we're all decked"
I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
Blizzard would also crack down on public recruiting for heterosexual only guilds. In fact I've seen people warned about that EXACT thing believe it or not.
God forbid someone not wanting to know about your sexual preferences. Problem is gays and lesbians tend to be hypersensitive about these things. I mean I guess they have reasons to be in all honesty. But it doesn't give them the right to label an otherwise good company as being haters.
I've never once seen any sort of guild full of gays or Christians or any other group on the Thunderlord server.
There are two groups... Horde and Alliance.
I am Horde and I kill Alliance, usually two or three at a time. (I'm a shaman and I have an "IWIN" button.)
Quite honestly, I don't like dealing with homosexual people in real life. I tend not to be as politically correct as some of them demand. I truly don't want to deal with them in the game either. I would suggest that gay people roll alliance so that I can kill them and don't have to listen to their pathetic drivel.
I know that "Aww Gay!" "Dude thats so gay!" is running rampant in the online gaming community. After being accosted by a few friends of mine(RL&IG)of differing sexual orientation, we've gone back to the old days of just saying "Ah fuck" and "Dude! You got fucked!" Cause in essence thats what "Gay!" has become, a replacement "Fuck!".(Wow what a strange sentence)
Why not just go back to saying "Fuck" and not caring if someone thinks you have a lesser command of the english language?
If they harrass you for that, just tell them that... You[I] have taken up the cause to use "Fuck" in order to minimize the negativity and abuse of someone's sexual orientation by using the word "Gay" as an explitive in order to foster a better virtual reality for all manner of gamer.
That should catch them off guard.
"But the Christians..."
I'll probably get modded as flamebait, but this argument smacks entirely of the whole 'Fear of Girls' video kind of situation, but in reverse.
Instead of a bunch of people deciding to yank role-playing into their lives, the decided to spend their time in MMORPGs and inject their real lives into role-playing.
Last I checked, WoW didn't have sexual orientation, and Christian beliefs weren't part of the fundamental makeup of multiverse created by Blizzard. If you want to role-play, then role-play and enjoy. If you need to socialise and engage in some kind of group therapy, then seek out a professional.
There is nothing more frustrating, IMHO, that people who usurp a perfectly good RPG to substitute for their real-life needs. Your real personality will of course affect your choices in the game, but it's still a game. If you can't handle that, log off, and go seek some help.
Linux - because it doesn't leave that Steve Ballmer aftertaste.
No homophiles, coprophiles, pedophiles, necrophiles. WoW is about gaming not deviant sexual practices. There are other forums for that.
Questions:
Are there currently guilds that only recruit heterosexuals? What's Blizzard's policy on this? What should it be?
Are there currently guilds that only recruit African-Americans? How about guilds that only recruit whites?
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
Since it seems such a popular game, I'd vaguely considered giving it a go. But if it's official policy that there are just too many homophobic morons in the game to do anything about it, then I'm glad I've not bought it.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I play warcraft with my wife. Our guildmates know that we're married, and thus they implicitly know that we're heterosexual. In fact, by so much as mentioning my wife, I'm revealing my sexuality. Of course, even if I were reported for that, I highly doubt I'd receive any sort of warning.
On the other hand, if god forbid a male player mentions that he has a boyfriend, he can get a warning for revealing that he's gay... not to mention getting flamed in forum discussions for "throwing his sexuality into people's faces."
I'm not clear on why someone being gay is an affront to other people's existance. Wingnuts, care to respond to this? Sin or not, why does it bother you so much if someone else is gay? Why does someone else's decision about their own sexuality have to be contraversial? Why choose to be offended when you could shrug it off as none of your business?
Yeah! I wash born say'in fuck, shit, piss and all dos utter swears, I wash raised say'in fuck, shit, piss and all dos utter swears nd dad gum it, I am gonna say dem, an no sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter.
(appologies to Mel Brooks)
Unless Blizzard is trying to suggest that creatures spawn asexually, then sexuality is definitely an in-game topic. Where there is affectionate emotion, there will exist a multitude of sexual orientations. Additionally, to suggest that homosexuality is more sexual than heterosexuality (implicit in the scant clothing and prominent breasts of female characters, despite rejecting a gay-friendly guild) is downright offensive.
Is it so excessively sexually explicit of me to cuddle my boyfriend while the guy on the next street corner is practically eating his girl's face? Were my childhood crushes founded purely in sex, a concept which I'd not even been made aware of? Bollocks they were. To unconditionally call homosexuality an entirely sexual issue is an outright lie and nothing more than cheap homophobia.
... i sometimes work at homes there the residents just happens to be gay, and all I have to say that they are much nicer people than the avarage hetero I meet up with.. maybe they're trying more than others to make a good impression but that's the view I've got (and spare me the jokes, they're not hitting on me).
And I believe that people can (and should be able to) do whatever they want with their lives.
So this kind of "news" bothers me, because nobody should really care at all.
I'm hetero btw, just to make that clear. I don't like homosexuality very much but I believe strongly in what I wrote above.
So blizzard get the lawyers to write something which more or less says "we're not gonna say anything that may upset anyone, so we're just going to push it under the carpet and try to hide from everything which may upset people". This is as bad as them going "racist people? HA! I'll bury my head and let them do it all they want, but then I'll ruin their house when they try and meet together".
Blizzard take a damn stance, either get rid of all guilds (not going to happen) or let people make a guild for anything from Hello kitty fans to the village people's friday night orgy club. Most people can look after themselvs and if they can't a simple block button to shut them up will do nicely.
I like muppets.
Blizzard really only has three options in this situation:
1. Freedom of Expression,
If you say that these people have the freedom to collect together and openly espouse the values/personal choices/lifestyle similarities, than you must open this standard to all "virtual citizens" in WoW. The verbal harassment system becomes moot because Blizzard has given a basic set of freedoms to all its players. This is the, "If Jewish pride groups can march near city hall then so can the Neo-Nazi's" because freedom can fully be offensive," example.
2.Allocate generous resources to monitoring harassment issues and make thousands of daily decisions in a timely manner,
This is the only way Blizzard could decide which groups can come together and advertise and which can't. Leaving behind how in the world they could develope a fair and far-reaching policy standard, the workload for this "Quality of Experience" issue would be enourmous and vastly overload the current less-than-pervasive GM staff. They would set a standard that the Executives agree with and enforce it around the clock. Unless they had the intellect of Solomon, I'm guessing that they would still take a ton of crap.
3. Cut of the problem with a "blanket" ban of things that might incite harassment,
This is the cheapest and least time consuming of the three, as they can just say, "Nope, we don't want this and its ours game so you can't do it." It is fully within their rights. We can always yell and scream about the fairness of our virtual social experience, but they are the one's in control. If you want to punish them, stop giving them money. That's what they are after in the first place. I personally am not all that up in arms about this decision. If you really wanted to do a Guild that espoused a certain value-set or lifestyle, its easy to do so in a way that is on a "person-to-person" level. And you'll probably end up with better guildmates that way anyway.
I am and always will be a stereotype, because who in their right mind prefers mono?
I randomly chose black as my skin colour for the game. At some point, some Euro kid ran up to me and yelled "NEGER!" which I thought was pretty hilarious given that (a) he has no clue what colour I really am, and (b) we're talking about a made-up land full of midgets and Spocks.
I have to say though that's the one and only time where I've heard anything inflammatory (apart from the usual juvenile Southparkian humour) and I rather suspect he was doing it to provoke.
The fact that this is an issue that requires debate at all makes me lose faith in society that much more... Don't we have enough things to whine and argue about already? In the grand scheme of life and death, this shit is pretty insignificant...
The glbt community always tries to portray themselves as downtrodden and in need of protection. Stop everyone else's offensive speech. But the moment they want to say something themselves that might either invite criticism -- or be offensive to anyone else -- you start hearing screams of "My free speech rights are being suppressed."
Truism Number 1: You can't suppress some speech rights without trampling on all speech rights.
Truism Number 2: Political Correctness is a game that can never be won due to its internal hypocrisies.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Now, if this was an adult only forum or chat for recruiting then i would say "guild peeps, go for it!" but if there are kids around i would do what is neccessary to protect their interests.
and for the record, im 20 years old, so im not far from one of those youths.
Menya zovut Shnur
Okay guys just a bit of personal annoyance here.. it's on topic but I'll still get modded down.
Can we stop to refering as gay people as "gays", they're PEOPLE not "gayians", I wouldn't refer to you as a Hetro or a Straight, so don't start calling people by their sexuality. Other than what they get up to in their heads, beds and hotel rooms they're exactly the same as everyone else, so can we please stop using that damn label?
I like muppets.
Boy, that's really sensitive of you. You swipe both a major ethnic group (people not like you), and a major religion (Islam) in one sentence. A real Two-Fer.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Everyone is missing the point. The real concern is that a group of WoW'ers will form a lesbian guild. In a few months when they discover that every member is actually a man playing with a female avatar, they will become enraged and destroy Blizzard HQ for making them face their deep-seated fear of being gay.
If I didn't use all my mod points yesterday I would of modded you up.
People seem to have lost the fact that swear words only mean what you make them mean. To me "fuck" is just another word to add a bit more strength to a sentence, where as "gay" is an insult 12 year olds scream at each other while trying to deny they eye each other's cocks in the gym showers.
I like muppets.
BTW, just how do you play an openly gay, or lbt, character in WoW? I don't recall seeing an explicitly glbt character type there.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
The Blizzard text is copy pasted from a post on the WoW Forums.
g ht/christian/Jew/Muslim/doglover/catlover/chronica llyillwithcancer) bashing centers.
What is missing is the second half of the post. They are not banning these guilds, they are just against advertising them in open chat in the game. They have said that the best avenue of recruitment is through their own Guild Recruitment Forums. What they are trying to stop is Orgrimmar and Ironforge (Main capital cities for non-Azerothians) turning into huge (gay/republican/black/white/purple/democrat/strai
In game bashing should properly be restricted to the opposing faction, n00bs, gold farmers, overpowered classes, and the hardcore guys who have no life and stand around showing all the 1337lewts you'll never get but still want.
If this signature is witty enough, maybe somebody will like me.
(Disclaimer: I am heterosexual, with certain morals that will be clear here)
One problem in a lot of arguments against homosexuality is that people believe that by saying that homosexuality is not 'natural' that somehow that makes it wrong. This is a fallacious assumption. Furthermore, defining something that people do as 'unnatural' based on (flawed) analogies to the rest of the natural world results in specious claims of whether behavior is 'natural' or not.
For instance: The strongest lion kills the children of its rivals within the pride to increase the chances of its genes. Ergo, when men beat/kill their stepchildren, this is 'natural.' Furthermore, we can assume that, being natural, this behavior should be subject to no censure or punishment.
That is another flawed argument, following the same conventions used when attacking homosexuality as 'unnatural.'
The parallels to pedophilia, bestiality, premarital sex, etc. are all correct in stating that homosexual behavior is subject to the choice of the actor. However, it differs from those in various important ways:
*Pedophilia: non-consensual (by definition under the law), exploitative of children, often meets the most narrow definition of rape.
*Bestiality: essentially masturbation + cruelty (in some cases) to animals. While I find it distasteful, I feel it should only be disallowed in violent/cruel circumstances, if the human involved is an adult. Anyway, only one person involved here, so it could be just as easily paralleled to hetero sex, in terms of badness.
*Premarital (Straight) Sex: equivalent to gay sex, except with an odd number of dicks involved. also, they can sometimes make babies (not always).
I hope this makes it clear to you, and to anyone else who wants to attack homosexuality in general, what flaws are most common in your(plural) arguments, and thus engender more logical debate on the topic.
And the reason a 'straight guild' would seem stupid, and obviously intended to arouse passions (a Troll Guild, as it were), is that 9/10 of all people are straight. It's like if at a Chinese University they started a "Asian Eyes Club," clearly intended to keep the whitey/indian/black folk in their midst 'in their place.' The media would have a field day with "Chinese Racism," because it would be a jackass thing for those Chinese students to do.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
Perhaps I'm missing something... but this is a game, right? Play by the rules or go home.
This does really highlight a difference between the population in EQ2 and WoW, in my opinion. A guild advertised exactly the same thing in EQ2. A couple players questioned their agenda, though only a select few were hostile. After this initial phase of discovering they're legit, they're willing to accept anyone, and they're not evil ghey folks out to convert your children, people stopped bothering them and the guild got formed. I kept seeing 'em around, so I guess they were doing okay.
Another thing that happened on a chat channel was that someone start making borderline racist jokes (being both drunk and stupid), and the guy's friends immediately did the right thing and told him to get some sleep and come back tomorrow. It was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen on the internet - no flame war, no cursing, no angry posts on the forums, it just ended.
As to WoW, if they want to handle everything real world by banning its discussion, I have no problem (though I'm curious if it's equally applied -- their policy might actually get them into legal trouble if it's not). I don't know, maybe they have a point with the kiddies, but I think most people in WoW have seen enough elves strip teasing and people talking about teh cybarsechs that it's not an issue. If we really need to head in this direction, I would absolutely love to see 18+ servers so that we could stop having to worry about offending the kiddies constantly.
Why in the heck does someone's behaviour in a game have to be politically correct? This wole politically correct world that is devoid of personal responsibility that we are living in really is pissing me off.
Oh no someone called you a name in an online game, lets go cry about it, even if the name calling was based upon race or sexual preference, does it really matter that much? Who the heck cares? Insult them back or brawl with them in the game or something.
Sheesh next thing we'll hear about is someone suing someone over something like this, it is just insane...
In the drops - An Aussie's musings on all things cycling
If you don't like it, take your money and business elsewhere.
Blizzard is a company, conducting its business how it sees fit. It makes its policy statements very clear. As long as it is following this policy (or, really, even if it isn't) YOU are the consumer, it's YOUR DOLLAR that funds them.
Personally, I expect that 'open chat' would devolve into a brain-mushifying torrent of abortion and political arguments, gender issues, the occasional stoner demanding the legalization of pot, and people spamming for cybersex. Woo, now THAT sounds like fun!
I mean, have you ever LISTENED to Barrens chat? (shudder)
*Truth in Advertising notice: I personally believe the 'freedom of association' principle logically reveals the inherent absurdity of anti-discrimination laws, too.*
-Styopa
I might take Blizzard more seriously if they didn't themselves introduce real-life religious festivals into the games (note: I don't actually mind this, and think it's cute, but they can't do this and then condemn players for introducing similar issues).
P.
I understand their point about in game harassment. I also understand that like minded people want to play with like minded people.
So, why not create a server dedicated to these preferences. There can be a gay server, a christian server, a moslem server, a republican server, a democrat server. Or even, how about a singles server?
This will let people meet like minded people and there will be little to no harassment. Anyone that wants to harass a group of people would essentially have to create an account on that server. And if it becomes clear that the primary intent of that account is to harass, then it can be closed.
The Internet is full. Go Away!!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
if i wanted my guild to then kick the butt of the jesus loving freaks than that would be a fun game.
"Jesus Loving Freaks"?
On second thought, let's just leave you as is, a testimony to the slashdot double-standard that makes Christians the only group (OK, besides Marketing) safe to malign or demean.
Dude, if a Christian posted here that he disagreed with the Blizzard policy cuz by having GLBT-friendly guilds clearly marked he could better target people for bashing, not only would he get modded down so fast he'd think the floor collapsed, but Cowboy Neal and Hemos themselves would be showing up on his front door within the hour with the arrest warrant for hate crimes.
Lighten up, Francis; you'll live longer.
shouldn't , because if they didn't, then wouldn't happen.
/ignore. You can choose to go elsewhere. And don't give me trash about these games being for children and the precious freaking children having their preconceived notions and biases broken. Any parent who's letting their children have unfettered access to an online game without discussing what's going on in that game, and taking an -active-, non-filterware, technically based role in being part of those experience isn't doing their job- and any child who's spouting faggot this gay that needs to have their filthy mouth washed out with soap- just the same as they should for using any other expletive. Gay people using those terms for themselves isn't an excuse. By negatively self-labelling and twisting those words around, they only add to the problem.
Black people shouldn't be uppity, because if they didn't, then lynching wouldn't happen.
Gay gamers shouldn't mention that they are, because if they didn't, then they wouldn't get harassed.
I call bullshit. This is just absurd. The only way to end the bigotry of "that's so gay", or "that camping faggot ganked me" is to have strong examples of competency in gaming - by people who just happen to be lgbt or otherwise counter to the stereotype.
- Sure, my example around the south and the plight of blacks is an exaggeration and oversimplification.. but erosion of stereotypes and erosion of bigotry have to start somewhere, and the juvenile, socially retarded, dysfunctional attitude of discourse that takes place in online games needs to be rooted out. If someone wants to go on a rainbow-flag-waving pridemarch it's their own damned business. You can choose to go away. You can choose to
And for all you naysayers who say there isn't any Jesus-y talk out there, open your freaking eyes. It's there.. pollutes roleplaying servers as well as non roleplaying servers.
The least they could do is enforce the rules in an evenhanded way... if glbt guild recruitment is banned from global chat, then so also should religious guild recruitment from those venues.
did you even read what i wrote? it was an expamle. i know i am bias on this subject seeing as how i am not a follower of religons. but there are jesus freaks and there are Christains.. some times they are the same but not always. seeing how Christains are such doubble standard people. they really just need to keep their mouth shut.
"This guild will not tolerate intolerance along the lines of X, Y, and Z", where "X, Y, and Z" exactly echoes whatever Blizzard's policy on non-discrimination is.
Let's see them complain about that.
First off, I guess my sarcasm wasn't pronounced enough. Second off, Merriam-Webster online defines Jihad as
1 : a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty; also : a personal struggle in devotion to Islam especially involving spiritual discipline
2 : a crusade for a principle or belief
I was using the second definition. Hah.
That sir, was the best display of pure frontier gibberish I've ever seen.
I'm so glad that these Trolls, and AC's were here to see this.
>
This is PURE EAU DE TROLLETTE
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Dude, first off, begin sentences with caps and get a spell checker. It'll do wonders for your credibility.
seeing how Christains are such doubble standard people. they really just need to keep their mouth shut.
I'm a Christian. I don't have a double-standard. I talk a lot. What are you going to do to me? Cry all over my shoes?
there are jesus freaks and there are Christains.. some times they are the same but not always.
I'm not sure that was English, but, OK, I think I understand your point. And there are homosexuals and there are homosexuals with enormous chips on their shoulders who feel they are being oppressed and mocked if their local Walmart doesn't sell lavender-scented air freshener. So what's your point?
Why does he need to come with a list of "experts", he didn't make a claim that what you said is right or wrong. You reasoning is wrong nothing else.
What power has law where only money rules.
I usually prefer not to get caught up in the flame wars of slashdot(that was in no way a reference to this article) - but it seems everyone is missing the point, its a game, a role playing game - people go to it to get away from their typical shitty lives (i actually like this game, so yeah), but any real world things should be banned from this type of enviorment, its not a matter of oh your gay and shouldn't be allowed to have your own place, or a matter of protecting them from harrassment, its simply that (as stated in the agreement you clicked accept to before you first logged in....though i was probably one of few bored enough to actually read that crap) you are not suppose to make any guilds, or even have any conversation that detracts from gameplay, if you bring politics (which is all this is) into a game where people are trying to escape from the real world because they have had enough of it and just need to relax, then you ruin the game.
By the most liberal estimates GBLT constitute 10% of the population.
40% of Americans would like to see Creationism (in one form or another) taught to highschool children.
If we make gross generalizations about the politics of these respective groups: for ever 1 person who would stay by defending GBLT 4 would leave.
That's bad buisness, and they are a buisness.
Disney had a similar problem way back. Gay Day at Disney where thousands of GBLT would converge on Disney wearing bright red t-shirts and doing what they do, at Disney. A big enough problem as that could generate, it also, coincedentaly fell on the same day the Boy Scouts had been having their anuall day at Disney for years.
Disney had a choice: on one hand, they make their bread and butter on "Middle America" (I hate that phrase, but it's the only short hand I have), and they also have a remarkably high percentage of GBLT working for them (Orlando is a fun town).
In the end they took no position at all. Neither GayDay or the BoyScouts were officialy sanctioned events by Disney, and they just refused to differentiate or take a possition.
Maybe that would have been better for WoW.
I would rather be ashes than dust!
Just have a guild of homosexual characters as it is a valid role playing aspect, there must be gay dwarfs and gnomes. You could have a religious rp guild as well, it would have to be about a valid WOW religion though, same with racism as long as it is against another race of characters within the game. Those are all valid role playing interests within the game world and people of similar real world interests could join guilds that suited them.
Yes i am posting this from work like you.
I have never played these massive online games. I have read about them, and talked to people that play them, and frankly it seems like they bring in too many hassles of their own. This article being the latest example. Out here in the real world, I don't understand the need to deal with manufactured problems that working through doesn't help me in the real world. I understand entertainment, and getting away from the real world for fun/relaxation, but these online games sound just sound like too much money to get more problems to deal with vs. the enjoyment of playing.
If they harrass you for that, just tell them that... You[I] have taken up the cause to use "Fuck" in order to minimize the negativity and abuse of someone's sexual orientation by using the word "Gay" as an explitive in order to foster a better virtual reality for all manner of gamer.
What about the neuters, you insensitive clod?!
The enemies of Democracy are
Now, they're talking about nerfing the Priests.
We all know that the majority of Blizzard employees play Horde -- And this is why you never see them nerf a Horde race.
With Blizzard, it's their way or the highway. Where's the ACLU when you need them??
blizzard is still "blaming the pretty girl for getting raped."
they're still "blaming the jews for the holocaust." wonderful.
"yes, lets get rid of racism! no blacks in the game, and nobody can call them mean racial nicknames!"
yes, you may argue that its a private game and they set whatever policies they want.
well, its my money, and don't count on me giving any more of it away to blizzard until they change their policy and stop this backwards discrimination.
Is it Blizzards place to host a gay politics chat forum? It isn't 1988 any more - there are plenty of places on the internet that already have such forums. Gays are still oppressed in places (real oppression, not just some idiot kid calling pople names) - but don't take it out on Blizzard.
13-17 year olds. I'm not saying that this is the sole age range of the WoW players, but the main majority are. What else are we to expect with a bunch of people that have not made it through what we call an education? They have no real concept of society at this point, and sadly one of those reasons is that our government is not trying to teach that any longer. Most of our good social programs have disappeared, we no longer teach basic laws in school (as far as the government law is concerned,) and in general we're slowly dumbing down our population by lowering the standards. What we're going to end up with is an ignorant society that has no brains, and very soon Webster's Dictionary WILL have a definition for 'sheeple.' That scares the shit out of me.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I think that there would be no need for a gay-/lesbian-friendly guild at all if people would just not be dicks. Who cares if someone in your guild or someone who wants to join your guild is gay? Does being gay give you stat bonuses or an epic armor set that I can't get because I'm straight? No? THEN WHO CARES?
Regardless of what the situation is, you're always going to have assholes in MMORPGs, whether they be ninja looters or general channel spammers or gold seller whisperers. Making a gay-/lesbian-friendly guild just seems kind of unnecessary. If you have people who are nice and want to play along with you because you're a genuinely fun person to play with, then the whole sexual leaning thing doesn't enter into it. Nor would race, religion, anything.
At least, in a perfect world it wouldn't.
On a bit of a side note, I decided to give a RP server a shot once and rolled up a Tauren warrior (big suprise). Within only a few seconds of wandering around the newbie area, I got whispers from some guy asking if he could give me a Bible. Some other friends were with me and were also getting these whispers. One of their responses was, "What's a 'Bible'? Is it food?"
"Apparently so, but suppose you throw a coin enough times. Suppose one day, it lands on its edge."
And, really, who wants an argument?
Maybe if WoW provided an environment where people could resolve in-game arguments by physical violence rather than resorting to discussion... Oh wait!
when you drill through all the double talk... they are banning the mention that gays exist in their game? they say that they are just avoiding mention of political/religious/sexual issues, but this is an obvious lie. people get *married* in game. there are christian guilds.
and what, don't gays exist in their fantasy world? homosexuality isn't a political party that can just not happen to exist, it's a phenomena that's pervasive throughout mammalian life for whatever reason. even dogs do it. elves don't? humans in some other world don't? that's stupid.
besides, in most mythologies all or most dwarves are guys. in tolkeins world even the women looked almost identical to men. what do you think that would lead to huh? huh?
in warcraft all the night elves were women. the men were all asleep or some such shit. common, you know they were totally getting some hot lesbian elf action on.
that's all I have to say on that topic.
Fucking A!
I think it's sad that saying "that's fucked" draws more attention than saying "that's gay". I guess I don't see how somebody could be offended by the word "fuck", on the other hand, saying "that's gay" is degrading the homosexuals. Are other such words, like "nigger" socially acceptable in such a context?
Are other such words, like "nigger" socially acceptable in such a context?
Only if you're black.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
It seems to me that the real concern is that they don't want a group out there publicizing its GLBT friendliness, its whether or not they are universal on their enforcement. Do they punish people who use the term 'gay' as derogatory? (ie, "Thats so gay!") Do they discourage guilds that market themselves as Christian guilds?
I don't really see any problem with their enforcement. The problem will only arise if they don't enforce these policies across the board.
-Da3vid-
No, that was actually just you putting words in his mouth. It can be hard to tell the difference between what you think other people say and what they actually do say. To combat this, I recommend listening rather than just waiting for your turn to talk.
Let's face it, when I play a game, I want to do just that: just play a game. I don't want to deal with drama queens ("waah, I spammed on the linked city chat that I'm gay/pagan/whatever for 6 hours and now mean people are picking on me! I'm sooo persecuted!"... usually along the lines of "STFU already, get a life, stop trolling, noone gives a damn". Well what DID you expect?), attention whores (e.g., a guild member spending 6 hours straight advertising what colour "her" panties are, and how "she" looks like a horny schoolgirl with a sexy voice), etc, etc, etc.
There's enough of that IRL, and I play a game to get out of there, not to get another dose of "waah, I picked a religion that's especially crafted to look like satanism and tick off christians, and now they're so mean as to actually get ticked off." I don't care what your religion, politics, or sexual inclination is, and I certainly don't care what your favourite persecution complex is or your favourite technique of trolling for persecution, I just can do without them in a MMO. Unless your sexual inclination is an integral part of said MMO (e.g., you get different spells for being gay), I'm there for the game, not for that. That's all.
And just do get dragged into that, noone's saying "she was dressed like a whore, so she deserved to get assaulted." There's a fine line between how you're dressed (noone picks on male mages wearing dresses, for example) and actively trolling for attention. At some point it's just common sense that you _will_ get the wrong kind of attention.
E.g., if you show up in KKK regalia at a black meeting and start spouting white supremacy crap, you might get two black eyes and maybe a few broken ribs. E.g., if you advertise being a hot, wet and horny female, you might get harrassed by horny 16 year old males. E.g., if you advertise being a "witch" in a small bible-thumping community, you might get people avoiding you or harrassing you. Etc. It's just common sense. What DID you expect there?
Yes, it's still the transgressor's fault, but excuse me for not feeling too bad for the victim either. If you do choose to do something stupid, something where common sense should have made the outcome plenty clear in advance, well, it seems to me like just Darwinism in action.
And that goes double for stuff that's basically trolling for attention or feeding one's persecution complex. I see a lot of that. A lot of the whining about narrow minded people comes after working hard to bait those people into doing that. E.g., a lot of the complaining about Christians being so narrow minded comes after someone's going out of their way to bait and annoy said Christians. E.g., yes, a lot of whining about narrow-minded homophobes comes after actively baiting those homophobes. Well, what did they expect? I'm guessing they expected and wanted just that all along.
Being a poor defenseless victim is an _easy_ role. Suddenly you're absolved of any responsibility. Anything happening to you is just being persecuted, never the direct consequence of what you've chose or done. It's a damn easy role to play.
The hard part is dealing with life as it _is_, and doing your best to avoid the traps and work around the stupid bits. It has plenty of those, and we all get to just deal with them. Life is what it is, society is what it is, and there's certainly a hefty dose of narrow-mindedness, stupidity, and unfairness in it. Deal with it. Make the best out of the crap hand you've been dealt. That's what everyone else is doing.
Or, of course, you can back up into the comfortable "auugh, life is sooo unfair, and I'm such a victim, and I sooo don't deserve it" emo act. Well, cry me a river.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I've spoken out about these topics many times, both on Blizzard's forums (from which I've been permanently banned), and on my own website (www.tessmage.com)... and the resulting flamewars have been a clear indication of exactly which demographic Blizzard has been marketing to: rabidly homophobic teenaged boys, all of whom fantasize about half-naked women that they can openly (and rudely) try to cyber with in video games.
Blizzard... enough is enough. Your hypocrisy is showing - again.
- Tessera -
To be accurate, Blizzard isn't moving to 'ban' the gay players, it's more like they want to avoid the whole issue in the first place by encouraging the gays to stay in the closet. "It's for their own good," the reasoning goes, "because if they don't tell anyone, they won't be targetted." Hear no evil.
Of course, anti-gay rhetoric gets thrown around anyway, with or without a gay guild. Many still use phrases like "that's gay" in a strongly pejorative sense, much the way words like 'nigger' were used by prior generations. A gay-friendly, open-to-all-who-are-open type guild makes sense.
Procrastination Man strikes again!
Blizzard's behavior is susceptible to a completely money-based, completely cynical explanation.
Namely, guilds are good for Blizzard because players like them and play more and recruit friends to play too. More players for more months = more money. However, now there is a guild devoted to groups and viewpoints that are unpopular among players and potential players. Such a guild could anger bigger groups of players and potential players. If prohibiting this new guild will cause Blizzard to have more customers than not prohibiting it, they will prohibit it.
The cynical explanation neatly explains why Blizzard would allow discussion of popular viewpoints but prohibit discussion of unpopular ones. So, why should we believe that Blizzard's move is about anything but the money?
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)