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Portrait of an Identity Thief

Ant writes to tell us that the New York Times has a closer look and an interview with an identity theft addict. From the article: "As far back as 2002, Mr. Sharma began picking the locks on consumer credit lines using a computer, the Internet and a deep understanding of online commerce, Internet security and simple human nature, obtained through years of trading insights with like-minded thieves in online forums. And he deployed the now-common rods and reels of data theft -- e-mail solicitations and phony Web sites -- that fleece the unwitting."

335 comments

  1. Its remarkably easy to scam people by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reason most people don't do it is because they're honest and want to help out the human race instead of being a drain on society.

    1. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by uvajed_ekil · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The reason most people don't do it is because they're honest and want to help out the human race instead of being a drain on society.

      I think of myself as an honest person, but a desire to retain my freedom has also kept me from straying into a life of crime. And whether or not a need to be honest is universal I don't know, but I suspect the deterrent of prison is enough to keep most people straight. Lots of us have the skills and opportunities to commit some fairly lucrative crimes, though we choose not to, for whichever reason.

      --
      This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
    2. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Korin43 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Considering how much money could be made through illegal means and how easily, morals are a much more important deterrent than the police. The police are the back up plan ;)

    3. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      Considering how much money could be made through illegal means and how easily, morals are a much more important deterrent than the police.
      Except that history clearly demonstrates, time and time again, what invariably happens when ordinary citizens are left with only their own morals to keep them honest - and it ain't pretty.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    4. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know... what a joke... an 'identify theft addict'. What, is stealing someone's identity this year's new black/bipolar? It's not a fucking mental illness.

    5. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by krell · · Score: 0

      You are not a politician, I can be sure of that.

      --
      Where were you when the voynix came?
    6. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by chmod+a+x+mojo · · Score: 1, Troll

      What, is stealing someone's identity this year's new black/bipolar? It's not a fucking mental illness.
      Are you saying bi-polar isn't a mentel illness? strange, since my psychiatrist seems to beleive it is. and the prescriptions i take for my bi-polar help ALOT.
      But since you don't have it it's not real huh? ....jackass.

      --
      To err is human; effective mayhem requires the root password!
    7. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by pete-classic · · Score: 1

      Could you name a few examples?

      -Peter

    8. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by caseih · · Score: 1

      It very well could be mental illness of sorts. There are compulsive shop-lifters, for example, who are influenced by something that can only be described as mental illness. Also, think about serial killers. One certainly can argue that they are very mentally ill. Of course that doesn't absolve them or this young man of personal responsibility. But there are devient behaviors that we say are not normal. Behaviors can also be addictive without meaning a person is mentally ill or insane, though. Gambling, for example, can be very addictive and in many respects his situation isn't much different (except the illegal stuff!). I think one could argue that the same things that make gambling addictive (thought of easy money, personal gratification) could make this crime addictive for this man.

    9. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Insightful
      what invariably happens when ordinary citizens are left with only their own morals to keep them honest - and it ain't pretty.

      True. They tend to form governments to get themselves organised, and it all goes downhill from there.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    10. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by kilodelta · · Score: 1

      So true. I'm technically capable of it, have access to all the tools etc. but I don't do it. Why, because I've been the victim of it. Had my bank account wiped clean and fought the bank and finally won.

      What most people don't want to hear is how insecure our banking system REALLY is.

    11. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by userlame · · Score: 1

      want to help out the human race instead of being a drain on society.

      The two are not mutually exclusive. You, like most, are very confused in mangling these two things together.

      P.S. -1, Off-topic.

    12. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "Of course that doesn't absolve them or this young man of personal responsibility."

      Depends...how was the manifestation of his mental illness?

      The legal definition of guilt / responsibility generally goes to the point of the individuals ability to understand what he was doing was wrong. Actually, this is the case for almost any law -- you have to understand what you are doing to be guilty of breaking the law...theoretically.

      But does he know he's doing wrong? Does he feel he has any control over this behavior, i.e., may know its wrong but no mechanism to stop it. Does he feel that an external force is controlling this action and he is not associated with it?

      I haven't read this, but I always find the personal responsibility aspect to be bullshit when it comes to dealing with mental illnesses. I've met quite a few folks in my line of work that have no clue as to their responsibility...at the same time, I also believe that some folks are so defective that it doesn't really matter if they understand what they are doing or not, they need to be pulled out of society for OUR good, regardless. This only goes to meaning that instead of punishing them, we remove them and never let them back for any reason.

    13. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know... what a joke... an 'alcohol addict'.
      I know... what a joke... a 'heroin addict'.
      I know... what a joke... a 'self mutilation addict'.

      He obviosly gets the same kind of rush from identity theft that people get from shoplifting, gambling, drug use, etc.

      Just about anything can be addictive.

      Examples: Rich people shoplifting & depressed people cutting themselves. Obviously neither group is doing it for their health.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    14. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enron, Global Crossing, Tyco Electronics, Martha Stewart ... the list would be very long.

    15. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New black/bipolar? What does that even mean?

    16. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is interesting how religious groups always claim the moral high ground, even though the whole operation is a scam, that plays on simple people's feelings of insecurity and then rip them off for the benefit of the church masters.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    17. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by MBCook · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everything is a mental illness.

      If it is a mental illness, that means two things. It's not your fault (hint: it is), and it's a condition (hint: thus insurance must pay). No one in America has problems. Those would be their fault and they would have to pay a shrink to talk about them. But if you make it an illness...

      What was that one that was "discovered" last month? Intermittent Explosive Disorder, aka "a really short temper."

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    18. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      Sadly most "morals" preached tell us to hate gay people and give money to a massive organization to allow them to gain more political power...

    19. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Nutria · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the list would be very long.

      Any time you've got lots of older boys & young men without a disciplining influence, there will be trouble.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    20. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Don't be so eager to take offense where none was offered. Bi-polar is a mental illness, none deny that. The OP was objecting to treating identity theft as though it too were a mental condition to be treated, instead of a crime to be punished.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    21. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think most people don't do it because they don't want to be poked in the butt while awaiting bail

    22. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think of myself as an honest person, but a desire to retain my freedom has also kept me from straying into a life of crime.

      That's funny.

      As an honest American, I find that my desire to retain my freedom is pushing me closer and closer to a life of crime with each passing day.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    23. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by iphayd · · Score: 1

      Things like this change the chemistry of the brain. This individual, while completely responsible for the crimes he committed, is most likely addicted to the money and feeling that the crimes produce. Our society will be better if he is treated for this addiction as not only will he no longer be a drain, but can be an important contribution to it.

      In short, it is his fault that he has an addiction. It is in our interest as a society to pay for the recovery from this addiction.

    24. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by QuantumFTL · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What was that one that was "discovered" last month? Intermittent Explosive Disorder, aka "a really short temper."

      What about this is not a mental disorder? Society says you are not supposed to have a short temper, and typically having a short temper is not something that a person typically chooses.

      I would postulate that given any person, there exists something you can do that will push them too far - something that will make them uncontrollably angry. For some it could be as simple as punching them in the face, or taunting them rudely for a while. For others it may take more. In either case, becoming angry is not a choice that the person is making - they may choose to try and suppress the emotion, but the human mind has only a very finite capability for handling aggression (as it is part of a very necessary fight-or-flight aggression system).

      I was once injured on purpose in gym class back in high school (it was somewhat minor, but extremely painful), and I can still remember the incredible adrenaline rush and rage that followed - I was barely able to contain it (even thinking about it 8 years later affects me strongly), and if the person who had caused the injury had done anything more, such as taunting me, I would no longer have been able to restrain myself (likely resulting in significant injury to that jerk, as the human body can abuse itself temporarily to gain signifcant strength during an adrenaline rush). I, for one, do not think this makes me a bad person - it's something that mammals evolved a long time ago (and man extensively since becoming intensely social creatures). There does exist a point at which the rational mind simply cannot override it.

      Back to mental illness... OED says that a mental illness is "a condition which causes serious abnormality in a person's thinking or behaviour." Some people simply have too short of a fuse - not because they felt like being an asshole, but because of a combination of genetic/environmental factors. It is probably good for these people to learn more about anger management to stretch their fuse a bit, but it is also probably wise for others to avoid provoking them. It's possible even that things that typically aren't a big deal to most people may be significant provokation for someone who has a serious temper issue - this makes it difficult for them to function well in society, and is thus a serious abnormality. There might not be a pill that makes it magically go away, but it doesn't make it any less serious of an issue.

      Of course that does not mean that all people who think they have IED actually have it, or even if IED has been properly defined... mental health is a field which is still poorly understood on the whole, and sometimes wanders away from the realm of scientific fact, however if being diagnosed with a problem helps people seek treatment (and yes, mental health is a legitimate use of insurance money... it doesn't matter whether you have a cure for cancer or whatnot if a person's just going to kill themselves anyways due to a chemical imbalance).

      I'm all for personal responsibility for the choices people make, but I do not think this is one of them. And for a rather small set of the population, it can be a socially crippling problem.

    25. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Could you name a few examples?
      First, I want to point out that it's very rare for someone to be in a situation where they have absolutely no concern for the consequences of their actions. Statistics say that here in the US, about 90% of the population describes themselves as spiritual. Most religions have some notion of an afterlife of pain or punishment, or karmic balance, or some such - i.e. consequences. And virtually anyplace you go in the world you'll find some sort of organized police force.

      What's left to look at are those who are in a position of power and influence, and either aren't religious or believe that God is on their side - i.e. people who have either absolutely no concern with the consequences of their actions (in this world or the next) or believe those consequences will be positive in nature. People like Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein.

      Also, any parent will tell you the importance of teaching children about right vs. wrong. Have you ever really thought about what that says about our inborn tendencies? Why would that lesson need to be taught, if we weren't essentially amoral by nature? Further, look at how that lesson is taught. Do we teach our children to avoid being bad simply because it's bad? Or do we teach them that being bad has consequences?

      What it essentially comes down to is a question of belief. The question of whether people are inherently good or evil has been debated forever, with no conclusive answer to it in sight. I have my beliefs on the matter, but I recognize those for what they are - belief, not knowledge. If you believe differently, I won't tell you that you're wrong, because I can't prove that. But neither can you prove that my belief is wrong.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    26. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. -- Voltaire

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    27. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1
      No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that "bipolar" seems to be the in thing de jure. A la cutting. Emo. Black. Gawf.

      Guess what? I've been clinically diagnosed with cyclothymia, for which I take sodium valproate - assumption is a big pain in the ass, is it not?

    28. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by JavaRob · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Most religions have some notion of an afterlife of pain or punishment, or karmic balance, or some such - i.e. consequences.
      More importantly, doing "bad" things tends to have much more immediate consequences. Most immoral things are "bad" because you are harming someone else. Someone who will, in all likelihood, not be very happy about it, and will try to:
      1) stop you from doing it again and/or
      2) harm you in return: perhaps physically, or (for example) telling everyone what you did harms you socially.

      Of course, if you don't get caught and aren't suspected, you don't need to worry about that directly. But we're social animals; we have some instincts and passed-on skills (empathy, conscience, etc.) to help us live in cooperative groups.

      Also, any parent will tell you the importance of teaching children about right vs. wrong. Have you ever really thought about what that says about our inborn tendencies? Why would that lesson need to be taught, if we weren't essentially amoral by nature?
      That lesson needs to be taught, perhaps, because we're essentially *stupid* by nature. We've evolved into a species that passes on essential knowledge to our offspring via teaching (because it works a lot better than only passing on slowly-evolved instincts!). If you raise kids without passing on the essentials (including how to interact with others), you're sending them out into the world as cripples, and they're going to screw up a lot and be miserable. That's not their "natural state" -- normally, this knowledge would have been passed on. In the natural human state, the parent teaches the child.

      Questions like "are we essentially amoral or moral" aren't really answerable just because they don't match up well with the real situation. Morality is the "best practices" we've figured out over time: how to live and cooperate with other people with a minimum of frustration and fighting. A kid might figure out some of that stuff on his own ("damn, I punch just one girl and now nobody wants to talk to me..."), just like he might figure out a hammer is for hitting things with... but without teaching, he's not going to master it any more than he'd master driving a car out into traffic if he found one sitting in the garage one day.

      Further, look at how that lesson is taught. Do we teach our children to avoid being bad simply because it's bad? Or do we teach them that being bad has consequences?
      If you teach your kid that he'll get punished when he grabs Billy's toy, he learns that *you* don't want him to grab toys. If you teach him to observe that Billy is sad when his toy is stolen, and Billy might be his friend if they share toys instead, and it feels good to have a friend... well, you're teaching him how to act even when you're not around, for starters. You're also giving him skills he can use in many other situations.
    29. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "What's left to look at are those who are in a position of power and influence, and either aren't religious or believe that God is on their side - i.e. people who have either absolutely no concern with the consequences of their actions (in this world or the next) or believe those consequences will be positive in nature. People like Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein."

      Ah, the classic "all atheists are evil, because they do not believe in god" argument. Don't you see anything wrong with it? Stalin etc. are no more representative for atheists than Hitler was for the christians, because they are not only individuals but also in a position of power and we all know that if someone is successful in politics it is because of a lack of morals and a lot of lying.

      If you consider the common man, you see that being religious means being able to call on justification by religion whenever you wish. Some do it, some don't, but the possibility is there, a possibility atheists do not have, so they always have to justify themselves in front of themselves - if you do it, you will find it very difficult to behave unethically, if you don't, you are working in politics or marketing.

      Also: If someone believes he only has this life instead of believing that he will have an after- or next life in which he is rewarded for what he perceives to be good and punished for what he perceives to be evil, don't you prefer the atheist who has to deal with the real world to the religious people who believe that belief makes right?

      Of course, I technically can't support my point that atheists are more ethical than religious people, so let's agree that both are people and therefore some of them are more and some less ethical in their behaviour.

      (Originally, I was going to use the argument "there are proportionally more religious people in prisons in the US" - however, there are also more blacks in prison, because they are mistreated [no real chance in life, thus committing crime; automatically assumed guilty out of the belief, that they are subhuman], which also leads them to be more religious to find an "explaination" for their misery, thus skewing the statistics on religious people in prisons.)

      "Also, any parent will tell you the importance of teaching children about right vs. wrong. Have you ever really thought about what that says about our inborn tendencies? Why would that lesson need to be taught, if we weren't essentially amoral by nature? Further, look at how that lesson is taught. Do we teach our children to avoid being bad simply because it's bad? Or do we teach them that being bad has consequences?"

      If you are what is perceived "bad" in your culture, you are shunned by your peers and thus have a difficult life, lacking the support of others, often even receiving open hostility. This is a consequence and you don't need an afterlife for it.

    30. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by andersa · · Score: 1

      I was going to say pretty much the same thing.

      In simple terms, the reason parents teach their kids 'to be good', is because it's just easier to learn that way. I believe the kid would eventually learn the benefits of being good, just from observing the reactions of others when it behaves badly. But that would be a slower, more painstaking process.

    31. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      First, I want to point out that it's very rare for someone to be in a situation where they have absolutely no concern for the consequences of their actions. Statistics say that here in the US, about 90% of the population describes themselves as spiritual. Most religions have some notion of an afterlife of pain or punishment, or karmic balance, or some such - i.e. consequences. And virtually anyplace you go in the world you'll find some sort of organized police force.

      Being on the other side of the atlantic I was quite surprised to hear that in american politics it is practically impossible to be an atheist, as you will be viewed as someone without "moral guideline". Not beliving in divine creatures myself, the most important reasons for me not doing things that will hurt or damage other people is (1) I can sympathise with the victim and realise I don't want to be in the that situation. (2) I couldn't stand the reactions of my family and friends if they found out about my actions. Even though these thoughts are part of most religions, I think they are more universal than that.

      What it essentially comes down to is a question of belief. The question of whether people are inherently good or evil has been debated forever, with no conclusive answer to it in sight.

      A reason for this could of course be that people are very different, my belief is that some people are actually inherently good, while some people need the threat of consequences for staying "good", most law-abiding people are probably in a gray area in between.
    32. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by akulbe · · Score: 1

      AMEN. Couldn't have said it better myself. Bennie says it better than I could: They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security - Benjamin Franklin

    33. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You provide possible reasons why religious people would tend to be less inclined to break the law, or more generally do actions that would be judged as "immoral" by most.

      However, do you have any figure to prove your point?

      I see plenty of examples of very religious people doing fundamentally wrong things (child abuses by priests, etc.), as I see examples of "non-religious" people doing wrong things. Religious people are faced with their religion (which they may see as supporting them or not), whereas non-religious people are faced with their conscience... Now, which one leads to fewer condemnable actions is an open question to me.

    34. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      It could be argued that some religions encourage wrongdoing... Like that Mafia men who would always go to confession knowing that they would be granted absolution for the crimes of the last week.

    35. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Could you name a few examples?

      Look at any city, or country, where the police are powerless, or otherwsie occupied. Eg, Baghdad, New Orleans last year. What's unvarying about post-disaster news stories: looters.

    36. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Flyboy+Connor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Its remarkably easy to scam people

      Unfortunately, this is all too true.

      Just this morning, I read two stories on the second page of my (Dutch) newspaper.

      The first described a woman who was director of a collective that was supposed to arrange fake marriages for immigrants who wanted to get Dutch citizenship. She asked for 20,000 euros for each arrangement. Of course, once she had the money, she didn't bother contacting the potential immigrant again. She made at least 80 million euros this way. She was fined the "huge sum" of 3.3 million euros. A nice profit, I would say.

      The second described some crooks who phoned US dentists and offered them investments in stocks of fine wines. They got at least 100 million euros this way. After collecting the money, they ran to South America. The wines, of course, did not exist. They are currently being prosecuted - in their absence. No doubt they will get big prison sentences - which they will have to serve if they ever set foot in the US or in Europe again. Not that they have any reason to return.

      What struck from these stories is how incredibly easy it is to get a shitload of money when you have no scruples. You don't need special skills. Just a phone and a bit of creativity in establishing your "good name" is sufficient. I mean, these US dentists sent all their pension money to The Netherlands because they got a phone call. Of course, these are the same people that believe that Nigerians are willing to share several millions of US dollars with them just for lending them a bank account number.

      Many (otherwise quite smart) people are obnoxiously stupid when confronted with a crook that promises them gold mountains. In my case, the main reason that I do not exploit that is that I am quite happy with my current sappy salary, and I just have too much (misplaced?) empathy with my fellow men. But this stupidity makes me quite mad anyway.

    37. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      It's not a fucking mental illness.

      RTFA. He kept doing it after he'd been caught three or four times, till finally he got 5 years. That's not rational behaviour.

    38. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by moz25 · · Score: 1

      What's left to look at are those who are in a position of power and influence, and either aren't religious or believe that God is on their side...

      Well, good thing we can safely ignore the 9/11 hijackers then, because they were definitely spiritual.

      You seem to hold a rather naive view of right vs. wrong. Sure, killing millions of people is a bad thing, but do the wackos who commit these atrocities agree? Probably not. Rather, they most likely believe their actions are necessary for the greater good and that their gods are on their side.

    39. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't it? If the small slap on the wrist I keep getting is my punishment for a very large reward, then it could just as easily be a perfectly rational cost-benefit/risk-reward decision.

    40. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Hey, plenty of people really deny that Bi-Polar is an illness, including one of my mates who has been prescribed as having it. A little of topic, perhaps.

      And do the medications really help? Or just help you fit into society easier? (That is his argument) Do they make it easier to sit at a desk all day, and do as your told? Is this necessarily a good thing?

      And yeah, I can see where Identity theft can be adictive - it is living life on the edge, seeing how far you can go. It is almost like playing the game second life, except that you are pretending to be someone else in the real world.

    41. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Well, it can be argued that depressed people who cut themselves are trying to get some attention. So, in a disturbed kind of way, they are doing it for their own health - if they continue to be "ignored" and get ever more depressed, they may end up topping themselves. Maybe it is a self defence mechanism in some people? (sounds pretty weird)

    42. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by jcr · · Score: 1

      He kept doing it after he'd been caught three or four times, till finally he got 5 years. That's not rational behaviour.

      Crime is stupid behavior, based on the belief that one won't get caught. The guy's stupid, but probably not crazy.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    43. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More importantly, doing "bad" things tends to have much more immediate consequences. Most immoral things are "bad" because you are harming someone else. Someone who will, in all likelihood, not be very happy about it, and will try to:
      1) stop you from doing it again and/or
      2) harm you in return: perhaps physically, or (for example) telling everyone what you did harms you socially.

      The basic principal of Karma, only it can be extrapolated into finer detail. Even if you are not caught you are still harming yourself. The result of your crime is temporary and you are likely to want to commit again leading into a destructive cycle - and one day you are likely to be caught. Committing crimes to satisfy desires while trying not to be caught is not a recepe for a peaceful life.

      Personally I prefer the idea of karma over "you will burn in hell" as it's far more immediate and its effects can be seen and understood.

      An amusing side of this story is that Shiva is normally a title reserved for more holy people.
      An interesting note about the parent article is the strong idea of "Ahimsa" or non-harming it refers to.

    44. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Eivind · · Score: 2
      Also, any parent will tell you the importance of teaching children about right vs. wrong. Have you ever really thought about what that says about our inborn tendencies?

      Not much. It basically says that to function well as part of a society, you need to know the rules of that society. We say "rigth and wrong" but in reality we mostly mean accepted and/or not-accepted by society.

      The rules you need to know are different for different societies, so obviously they'll have to be learnt after birth.

      An American child does not need to learn that sitting in such a manner as to expose the undersides of his feet to a stranger (for example at a beach) is "wrong", a child from Dubai does.

      A child from Germany needs to learn that saying "Gesundheit" when somebody near you sneeze is expected behaviour. A Norwegian child don't.

      A child from a village in Amazonas does not need to learn that going outdoors without clothes would be "wrong", a child from Atlanta does.

      In some cultures children learn that having more than one wife is "wrong", in others they don't. In some cultures having more than one husband is perfectly fine, in others it'd be "wrong".

      There's a gazillion such rules. Most are, if not completely arbitrary, then atleast strongly culturally varying. Having to learn them has little to do with any universal concept of rigth and wrong, and much more with successfully interacting with a society.

      This says nothing about our born morality, or lack thereof. All it does say is that training is required to learn a complex set of behavioural expectations.

    45. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And for every looter there's about 50 honest people who are not looting.

      You can't prove anything about human nature by using the extremes like Stalin and looters in a city.. you have to look at the whole - and in general we do tend to act for the good of society (which is a good evolutionary trait btw.).

    46. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by mrdaveb · · Score: 1

      For the most part, religion is certainly useful for keeping people on the straight and narrow. Don't do bad stuff - God is looking over your shoulder.

      However, most people I know don't seem to have any of those particular beliefs and yet still stick pretty closely to the law (or a close approximation of it)

      Humans have clearly evolved to work together with other humans and be concerned for eachothers interests. It's certainly not as rigid as, for example, the first law of robotics... But then perhaps it wasn't designed :-)

      --
      Homme petit d'homme petit, s'attend, n'avale
    47. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by lord+sibn · · Score: 1

      Logically speaking, this is a fallacy. Morals are not justification for evil behaviour, they are justification for good behaviour. The fact that some people claim that their evil behaviour is somehow moral is simply not true. To them, it may be ethical, but that does not make it moral. I suspect, though, that you were taking a broad stroke at organised religion (though I admit the possibility that you were not). Religion, like any number of other things, is often used as an excuse for war. I doubt it has ever actually been the *reason* for war. Again, I do realise that you might not be saying that, but it appears to be a fairly common (more appropriately, unfairly common) belief. Whether Ghengis Khan went to church every week would not change his desire for more wealth and more women.

    48. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by noidentity · · Score: 1

      You left out one of the motivations for labeling things illnesses: it justifies forced drugging.

      Seems people who buy into this kind of thinking are completely unable to grasp how temporary arrangments of components in a system can yield a set of behaviors. As someone commented elsewhere, addiction is the new name for being posession (by the devil). Any behavior must be due to a single module in the system, which must be eliminated.

    49. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Errtu76 · · Score: 1
      Most religions have some notion of an afterlife of pain or punishment, or karmic balance, or some such - i.e. consequences.
      Or are promised a hundred virgins for their actions ...
    50. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by caluml · · Score: 1
      As an honest American, I find that my desire to retain my freedom is pushing me closer and closer to a life of crime with each passing day.

      That's not +5, Funny. That's +5 Insightful/Sad.

    51. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by pete-classic · · Score: 1
      Could you name a few examples?
      [no examples]


      Is that a no?

      Or do you mean to say that "Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein" are a representative sample of humanity?

      -Peter
    52. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Dasaru · · Score: 1

      I know... what a joke... an 'identify theft addict'. What, is stealing someone's identity this year's new black/bipolar? It's not a fucking mental illness.

      That is true. But if you could get easy money fast and free with little effort, wouldn't you think about taking it for at least a split second? It sounds to me, stealing other people's money through credit theft is a lot easier than robbing a bank or mugging someone. Sharma even said it himself in the article that 'it all became too easy too fast'.

      (Excuse my video game reference) But it is kind of like getting hacks for a video game. Once you get them, it becomes too easy, and you can't stop because you're enjoying yourself. The only difference is that Sharma got a thrill out of what he did.

    53. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Let there be Voltaire! - God.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    54. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Slightly off-topic, but I thought Intermittent Explosive Disorder is what I experience after trips to Taco Bell.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    55. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by jkabbe · · Score: 1

      OED says that a mental illness is "a condition which causes serious abnormality in a person's thinking or behaviour."

      I think maybe we need to re-evaluate what "serious" is? I remember reading that 90% of families are dysfunctional. Would it really be useful to say that all the people in those 90% of families have a mental illness of some sort? I don't think so.

      Some people have a mental illness. There is something seriously wrong with their brains. Other people simply have issues they need to deal with. To my mind, anything that can be dealt with through counseling is not a metnal illness. Sometimes it requires a lot of counseling because people have very strong, instinctual emotional reactions that they need to overcome. But, just because someone happens to get pissed off quickly sometimes and wants to lash out, that doesn't mean they have a mental illness. It just means they need to learn (through lots of practice) a new way of reacting to situations.

      But that's just my opinion. Who knows, I could be wrong on account of having some kind of mental illness.

    56. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by jhylkema · · Score: 1

      What's left to look at are those who are in a position of power and influence, and either aren't religious or believe that God is on their side - i.e. people who have either absolutely no concern with the consequences of their actions (in this world or the next) or believe those consequences will be positive in nature. People like Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein.

      You forgot George Walker Bush in that list.

      "He became convinced that God was calling him to engage the forces of evil in battle, and this one time baseball-team owner from Texas did not shrink from the task."

    57. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by jkabbe · · Score: 1

      RTFA. He kept doing it after he'd been caught three or four times, till finally he got 5 years. That's not rational behaviour.

      If you've spent any time meeting with prisoners, like several members of my family have, you'd come to understand that virtually everyone in prison is there due to irrational behavior. Should we just get rid of prisons entirely and build more hospitals?

    58. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by plumby · · Score: 1

      Crime is stupid behavior, based on the belief that one won't get caught.

      Only if you do get caught (and the punishment is sufficient once you are).

      There's enough people out there living the good life on the proceeds from crime to suggest that it can be a worthwhile career choice.

    59. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by winnabago · · Score: 1
      The only difference is that Sharma got a thrill out of what he did.
      I think you meant that he actually made money out of what he did.


      Along the same line of thought, however, there is a subsection of gamers that finish a Mario Bros. game in, what, 4 minutes? They pride themselves in knowing the secrets. He said himself in TFA that he couldn't stop until the system made everything he knew obsolete (and optimistically gave it "a couple years"). In other words, a new Mario game will come out, and he hopes it is a little more difficult, or somehow 'below' him so that he loses interest. I don't see this changing anything. It's in the blood, like others have said, like gambling or drinking.


      Either way, the type of personality that ID theft attracts is strictly anti-social. The fast talking check writing con man is so 1960's. Why actually talk to someone, when you can swindle and switch under cover? This, like online poker and off track horse betting, is a dangerous combination.

      --
      Dammit Otto, you have lupus.
    60. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      I agree, it's like saying that people suffer from kleptomania, when the truth of the matter is they're persistent thieves.

      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    61. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Kleptomainia has been a recognized disorder for many decades. How else to you explain the occasional case of wealthy people who can't resist stealing small items from shops, even though they could easily have afforded to pay for them? Sometimes they steal things they don't really need but can't resist taking anyway?

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    62. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't out of self-respect and empathy for others. Going his route is an admission of laziness and a failure to make it in the world within the rules. I'd also feel for the misery I'd be inflicting on others, something this guy seems to lack.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    63. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      I consider the police to act more like janitors (no insult implied). Most of the time they are cleaning up a mess after it has already happened. They rarely stop something before it happens. Police officers frequently say that the public needs to more active in crime prevention, they can't leave it all to the cops.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    64. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by QuantumFTL · · Score: 1

      I think maybe we need to re-evaluate what "serious" is? I remember reading that 90% of families are dysfunctional. Would it really be useful to say that all the people in those 90% of families have a mental illness of some sort? I don't think so.

      I've never read any peer-reviewed material supporting that particular point, but is that actually so hard to believe? Consider that, for the first time in history (last 6000 years), human cultural evolution has far outstripped genetic evolution. The main difference between current humans and humans a few thousand years ago (other than nutritional factors, and some race mixing) is in the immune system (due to plagues and agriculture). Think about what that means for a few seconds:
      Mankind evolved to be locally optimal for a situation that is radically different (caves, hunter/gathering) than we force ourselves to live in today. Mankind is violent to survive (now a dangerous problem for our long time survival). Humans are obsessed with sex and obtaining sexual gratification, and by nature very non-monogamous. Yet in many places in the world there are already too many people because of lower mortality rates, and the institution of marriage usually requires monogamy (60% of marriages end in divorce in the US... I'd call that dysfunctional). Our basic instincts worked great when we lived in caves and carried clubs, and while our education has gotten marvelously better, our base instincts have not. The same factors that make individuals eat enough to survive in the wild cause people to become obese in our modern age, and even contribute heavily to things like cocaine addiction.

      Another part of the problem is that it is widely unnaceptable in modern society to deviate from the norms. People are taught (and pressured) to act similarly, despite their diversity of genetic and evironmental factors. People with wildly disparate personality types are made to obey the same rules of societal conduct, even when it goes against their most basic instincts.

      I don't know what qualifies as "dysfunctional" but history has shown that pushing a square-shaped mankind into a round-shaped civilization creates all kinds of problems.

    65. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shit, mod parent insightful, yo! This isn't just funny, it's the God's Honest!

      *flies a little libertarian flag, whatever that may look like...*

    66. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intermittent Explosive Disorder

      Ah yes, I get a variation of this disorder everytime I eat Indian food.

    67. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      Ah, the classic "all atheists are evil, because they do not believe in god" argument. Don't you see anything wrong with it?
      Yes, I see plenty that's wrong with that argument. That's why I didn't make that argument. I didn't say atheists are evil. I said *people* are evil, and that fear of an afterlife of punishment is a powerful deterrent that keeps many of us from exercising our baser instincts.

      Next time, you might want to try replying to what I actually wrote. You won't make yourself look quite so foolish.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    68. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      What's left to look at are those who are in a position of power and influence, and either aren't religious or believe that God is on their side...
      Well, good thing we can safely ignore the 9/11 hijackers then, because they were definitely spiritual.
      I've highlighted the part of my post you either missed or ignored. The hijackers believed God to be on their side, thus had no fear of negative consequences in the afterlife. In fact, they believed that their actions guaranteed a happy afterlife.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    69. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      If you teach your kid that he'll get punished when he grabs Billy's toy, he learns that *you* don't want him to grab toys. If you teach him to observe that Billy is sad when his toy is stolen, and Billy might be his friend if they share toys instead, and it feels good to have a friend...
      I don't see a morality lesson in there. If you teach Billy all that, then you've taught him to overcome his naturally-selfish instincts and thereby avoid their undesirable consequences. How is that not in agreement with what I said above?
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    70. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Questions like "are we essentially amoral or moral" aren't really answerable just because they don't match up well with the real situation. Morality is the "best practices" we've figured out over time: how to live and cooperate with other people with a minimum of frustration and fighting. A kid might figure out some of that stuff on his own ("damn, I punch just one girl and now nobody wants to talk to me..."), just like he might figure out a hammer is for hitting things with... but without teaching, he's not going to master it any more than he'd master driving a car out into traffic if he found one sitting in the garage one day.

      If morals are just best practices, doesn't that imply amorality as the initial state? I think that's basically true: Humans will do whatever triggers their pleasure center, whether it be physical, emotional, or social interaction. Once humans develop the ability to reason and plan, they will plan to do things that result in pleasure. Morality just happens to be what has evolved as a compromise between hedonism and idealism. Just about everything in that range has been the basis for different human societies, and many societies with vastly different morals than typical Western ones have survived as long or longer than a lot of Western societies. Humans have also readily adapted to major changes in morality within, usually, a single generation or two. Just look at rock and roll, the decline of marriage (especially worldwide, not just the US), gay marriage, the death penalty, and a host of other issues that are completely changing the general idea of morality that people had for hundreds of years.

    71. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      Is that a no?
      Sounds like you expected a simple, easy-to-debunk list of names instead of a coherent statement of my beliefs. Sorry to disappoint you.

      Or do you mean to say that "Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein" are a representative sample of humanity?
      You asked for examples of what happens to people who have no concern whatsoever of facing any negative consequences for their actions, in this world or the next. People who are in that position are exceedingly rare - most of us do have such concerns, whether real or imagined. The above individuals are examples of those who do find themselves in such a position.

      Can you name any counter-examples of individuals in a similar position, who acted in a way that most of us would describe as "good"?
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    72. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      And for every looter there's about 50 honest people who are not looting.

      So? I didn't say EVERYONE was looting. If even 1 in 50 were, that's enough to make everyone else live in fear.

    73. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Should we just get rid of prisons entirely and build more hospitals?

      I didn't say he didn't deserve to be in jail. But if he was actually treated as well as (not instead of) being punished, there might be a chance of rehabilitation. Otherwise there's an excellent chance he'll go right back to a criminal life when he gets out.

    74. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Isn't it? If the small slap on the wrist I keep getting is my punishment for a very large reward, then it could just as easily be a perfectly rational cost-benefit/risk-reward decision.

      He committed more crimes after he'd been charged for earlier ones. If he was rational he'd have kept clean and probably got probation; instead he got a few years in jail. That's not rational.

    75. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While physical addiction is something entirely different, mental addiction is just a chemical imbalance in an individual's brain chemistry (mainly the dopamine system). Pure and simple. When an activity or substance results in a temporary relief of that imbalance, the mind naturally associates that activity with feeling normal. That's how mental addictions form.

      In this case, the thief probably got an adrenaline rush from breaking the law. When the body releases adrenaline, it also releases norepinefrin in the brain which causes what is commonly referred to as the "adrenaline rush". So by associating that rush with his illicit activity, he does become addicted to it.

      However none of this makes him any less culpable for his actions. It's his responsibility to recognize his addiction and seek help for it. Modern psychiatry (along with psychology) can help deal with these issues.

    76. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by pete-classic · · Score: 1
      Except that history clearly demonstrates, time and time again, what invariably happens when ordinary citizens are left with only their own morals to keep them honest - and it ain't pretty.


      You fucking said it. Don't blame because you can't cite one example of "ordinary citizens" behaving in a way that "ain't pretty" just because they don't have the government breathing down their necks.

      Sounds like you expected a simple, easy-to-debunk list of names instead of a coherent statement of my beliefs. Sorry to disappoint you.


      Why would I care what you believe? I want to know what you can demonstrate. And your examples will only be easy to debunk only if they're . . . bunk.

      Can you name any counter-examples of individuals in a similar position, who acted in a way that most of us would describe as "good"?


      Um, I'm not the one running around claiming "that history clearly demonstrates, time and time again" something I can't give a single example of.

      The only person I am ever with when no one is around is me. I don't steal shit just because no one is looking. And I'm an atheist, so I'm not worried about some cosmic spanking.

      Do scumbags exist? I don't think there can be any question. Is each of us a scumbag kept in check by an external force? I don't think so.

      -Peter
    77. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      Um, I'm not the one running around claiming "that history clearly demonstrates, time and time again" something I can't give a single example of.
      You may disagree with my examples because they don't fit with your own beliefs, but doesn't mean I didn't give any.

      I'm not going to argue about this with someone who can't understand the difference between belief and knowledge. Sorry to disappoint you, but irrational religious arguments just aren't my idea of entertainment.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    78. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by pete-classic · · Score: 1

      Okay, one simple question. Do you assert that Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein are "ordinary citizens"? Those are the only examples you have given, and that is the phrase you used.

      -Peter

    79. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by moz25 · · Score: 1

      Hhm, after rereading your post it appears I've misinterpreted it and jumped to a wrong conclusion. It happens. Sorry.

    80. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      Do you assert that Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein are "ordinary citizens"? Those are the only examples you have given, and that is the phrase you used.
      What I believe is that there was nothing basically different about their physical or mental makeup compared to anyone else's. They were basically ordinary people who found themselves in extraordinary situations. You've heard the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely", right? I don't agree with it - I believe that corruption is a basic part of human nature, that only those in a position of absolute power are truly free to act on it, and that history clearly demonstrates what those who find themselves in such a position tend to do with it.

      For myself, I choose to be honest, refrain from stealing, avoid violence, etc. because I believe it's in my own best interests to do so. I don't view it as a moral or ethical choice, but a selfish one. If we lived in a "might makes right" society where such things were acceptable, that would put everyone (including me) at great risk of personal misfortune or injury. I don't want to live in a world like that, so I do what I can to avoid it.
      --
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    81. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1

      No worries - to be fair, I could certainly have expressed myself more clearly. It was an awkwardly-written sentence. And I did say "either missed or ignored"; I didn't know which was the case, and didn't intend to make any bogus accusations.

      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    82. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Statistics say that here in the US, about 90% of the population describes themselves as spiritual.

      Sure. But what does that have to do with morality?

      What's left to look at are those who are in a position of power and influence, and either aren't religious or believe that God is on their side - i.e. people who have either absolutely no concern with the consequences of their actions (in this world or the next) or believe those consequences will be positive in nature. People like Josef Stalin, Jim Jones, and Saddam Hussein.

      So atheists prima facie cannot have a moral code? I look forward to the evidence supporting this arbitrary claim.

      Saddam was still a Muslim, by the way. Hitler was a believer in God too. What's that? Not *your* God? Well, I guess you'll just have to fight that one out.

      if we weren't essentially amoral by nature?

      What's this "we" stuff? Speak for yourself, brother.

      There is no "original sin"; human nature contains neither good nor evil in itself -- it just is, a part of nature itself. Morality consists in how each one of us as individuals plays the hand we are dealt -- not in the cards themselves.

      What it essentially comes down to is a question of belief. The question of whether people are inherently good or evil has been debated forever, with no conclusive answer to it in sight.

      You mean, no conclusive answer that you can see. That may be due to the lack of such an answer, but it's more likely that your eyes are simply closed.

      I have my beliefs on the matter, but I recognize those for what they are - belief, not knowledge.

      I recognize them for that too.

      But neither can you prove that my belief is wrong.

      I don't have to. Such would require that there is something to disprove, and there isn't.

      Arbitrary claims (made-up BS) bear no relationship to reality whatsoever. They neither contradict reality nor correspond to it. They are just so much noise, empty of cognitive content, and should be treated as such.

    83. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by pete-classic · · Score: 1

      Do you scrabble for absolute authority over a group of people? Do you think that the people you cite became powerful without doing so?

      Also, do you think this is an ordinary definition of "ordinary"?

      -Peter

    84. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      To a degree. I'd argue that it's not common sense. It's greedy. But is greed symptomatic of a mental illness?

    85. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by toddestan · · Score: 1

      How else to you explain the occasional case of wealthy people who can't resist stealing small items from shops, even though they could easily have afforded to pay for them?

      Easy. It's the thrill of taking something you shouldn't, and getting away with it. To simply buy the item would be boring.

    86. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by bsartist · · Score: 1
      Do you scrabble for absolute authority over a group of people? Do you think that the people you cite became powerful without doing so?
      No, and no. I wouldn't do so for two reasons:

      First, the men we're talking about were (or are) geniuses at the art of manipulating other people, where my own skills in that area are pretty pathetic. The odds of success for me are so low, and the consequences of failure so high, that I don't consider it a worthwhile gamble.

      And second, these men believed themselves to be untouchable, for whatever reason, but in the end they were proven not to be. I'm neither arrogant nor foolish enough to indulge in such beliefs. Newton's law of action and reaction has a corollary - if you want to avoid the reaction, don't do the action.

      Also, do you think this is an ordinary definition of "ordinary"?
      I don't think we're using different definitions of "ordinary". We apparently do disagree as to whether the word applies to the three men in question though. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. As I said earlier, I view this as a matter of philosophy and belief, not hard fact, and I don't see much point in a debate that can never really be settled one way or the other.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    87. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by deceased+comrade · · Score: 1

      Your comment essentially says that Atheists are amoral. But at least Jim Jones was "spiritual" and Saddam Hussein was raised Muslim and may still be (He was often depicted praying). As an athiest I find it insulting that you implied that being without spiritualism causes you to lack empathy. And very rarely do spiritual people stop doing what they would otherwise because it would be against their diety's wishes. Athiesm is not immorality.

    88. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by JavaRob · · Score: 1

      You're still talking about Billy's selfish urges as the only "natural" thing.

      My point is that it's just as "natural" for you to teach him how to balance that initial urge with wiser behavior that will help him to be happier.

      The instinctual part of him gives him the urge to just grab the toy, sure. But it also gives him a propensity to learn quickly from you, and it gives him (once he starts to get it right) reinforcement through very positive emotions as he makes friends, earns respect, etc..

      It's not that you've "taught him to overcome his naturally-selfish instincts". You're teaching is a requisite part of his natural development; if you don't, he's going to be way out of whack from his natural balance, and NOT a successful human being who's likely to reproduce.

      Another way to put it: he's not "naturally selfish" -- he's naturally in a balance between selfish urges and social urges (both of these are a mix of instinct and instruction), and that lets him interact successfully and happily with others while still acting to a degree in self-interest. That selfish pull isn't bad in the normal balance -- without it, he'd sacrifice himself totally for the needs of others (and be appreciated, but probably not live very long...).

    89. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by JavaRob · · Score: 1

      If morals are just best practices, doesn't that imply amorality as the initial state?

      No -- humans survived and thrived as a species based on our "best practices" (and our natural ability to teach & learn). So it's natural for groups of humans to develop and pass on morality of some kind.

      Are you talking about infants as the "initial state"? Sure, at that stage of development, humans aren't yet moral agents. They're basically helpless, and their main job is to make sure Mom remembers to feed them and keep them safe. You can't draw any conclusions about adult humans based on that alone.

      So saying that infants are "amoral" doesn't really mean anything. What conclusions can you draw from that? Kangaroos, when they're first born, don't hop at all. They just crawl into the pouch. I'm not going to conclude from this observation that they're "naturally non-hopping creatures", and suspect that adult kangaroos are always on the brink of slipping back into this natural, non-hopping state.

      Morality just happens to be what has evolved as a compromise between hedonism and idealism.
      Well, don't forget that "hedonism" isn't such a simple route. We're all hedonists, in a way -- there's pleasure in accomplishing difficult tasks, in helping others, avoiding guilt, etc. etc.. The stereotypical rock star lifestyle isn't successful hedonism at all (though that's what people tend to think hedonism is...) -- they tend to go self-destructive, or end up like Michael Jackson. Think he's happy?

    90. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1
      How else to you explain the occasional case of wealthy people who can't resist stealing small items from shops, even though they could easily have afforded to pay for them?
      I must have missed the memo - the one where it's only stealing if you take something you couldn't afford to buy. Doesn't matter two hoots if you could afford to buy the shop, and it soesn't matter why - you steal something, you're a thief.

      Sometimes they steal things they don't really need but can't resist taking anyway?
      Then they're stupid thieving bastards.
      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    91. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by techno-vampire · · Score: 1
      I must have missed the memo - the one where it's only stealing if you take something you couldn't afford to buy. Doesn't matter two hoots if you could afford to buy the shop, and it soesn't matter why - you steal something, you're a thief.


      You missed the point. Of course they are. The point is, that these people aren't theives because they can't afford to buy, they're not thieves because they want to sell what they stole, they're thieves because they can't control the impulse to steal, even if they have no need for whatever they take. This is a known disorder, and can sometimes be cured.

      --
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    92. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      No -- humans survived and thrived as a species based on our "best practices" (and our natural ability to teach & learn). So it's natural for groups of humans to develop and pass on morality of some kind.

      Yet many civilizations embraced human torture and sacrifice, and many embraced peace and understanding. Some civilizations treat their own members as property, and others do not. If anything, the moral landscape is incredibly varied over history. I'd say the range of human behavior has been at least as varied as animal societies, everything from hunter-gatherer loners to small family tribes to large countries where everyone was willing to fight and die for their emperor. Basically any moral you can think of like don't kill, don't steal, or don't sacrifice your children to the gods has been ignored by long lasting societies.

      Are you talking about infants as the "initial state"? Sure, at that stage of development, humans aren't yet moral agents. They're basically helpless, and their main job is to make sure Mom remembers to feed them and keep them safe. You can't draw any conclusions about adult humans based on that alone.

      That's the entire point, which you seem to have missed. If infants are amoral and can be molded to hold any sort of morality from pure hedonism to self sacrificing altruism, then how can anyone say humans in general are "moral"? Isn't morality simply a behavioral trait of humans within some given society? It would be much better to speak of the morality of specific human societies, not humanity in general. The fact that we have prisons proves that there are individuals who don't hold to today's general morality. Since humans can adapt to any given society, it implies that basically they are amoral and simply take on the morality of their society so that they can survive. Witness the ability of mobs and people lost in the wilderness to abandon all sense of morality and act purely hedonistically. Anonymity and freedom from retribution also allows human amorality to express itself. How else can you explain flame wars and trolls and other completely antisocial behavior on the Internet?

      they tend to go self-destructive, or end up like Michael Jackson. Think he's happy?

      I imagine Michael Jackson can afford enough medication to feel however he wants whenever he wants. Pure hedonism is possible so long as proper stimulation is involved. All the human body and mind need are goals, obstacles, and rewards. Where does morality fit in?

    93. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by JavaRob · · Score: 1

      Yet many civilizations embraced human torture and sacrifice, and many embraced peace and understanding.

      If a human sacrifice is required to appease the gods (and protect everyone), it isn't so clearly immoral anymore. You have to remember that a lot of practices that we think are evil now were based on different ideas about what was good for the people. Now we know better, so we know it's a bad idea.

      There have also been plenty of cultures divided into strata, where interactions within a group would be generally non-abusive and fair, but a member of a "lower" group could be abused in some way. The concepts of morality that allowed this work seemed logical (and would be backed up with edicts from god(s) and examples of the deserving value of the superior group), but there's always that inconsistency, that flaw that becomes apparent when we encounter someone from a "lower" group who doesn't fit the type, who's actually smarter and/or more skilled than the supposedly superior group. These start to prove the falseness of the model, and gradually ideas change -- the lower group becomes more dissatisfied, the higher group becomes less confident of their correctness. We deal with the world using models of reality, and when they are repeatedly proven false, we try to correct them; that's how we learn.

      That's the entire point, which you seem to have missed. If infants are amoral and can be molded to hold any sort of morality from pure hedonism to self sacrificing altruism, then how can anyone say humans in general are "moral"?

      Infants cannot be molded like that. They will still have the same basic instincts even if you teach them nonsense. They become thinking entities at some point, and will start using their brains to try to figure out how things work, and how to make themselves happy. They might not get very far, depending on how badly their education was mangled. But they'll try to make sense of the ideas they've been taught, and draw some conclusions of their own along the way (that will be passed down to their offspring, and so on). Somewhere along the line someone will come up with the idea, again, that an eye for an eye sucks for everyone involved. Etc..

      Isn't morality simply a behavioral trait of humans within some given society? It would be much better to speak of the morality of specific human societies, not humanity in general. The fact that we have prisons proves that there are individuals who don't hold to today's general morality.

      The fact that we have prisons also proves that those individuals comprise small enough of a minority that they can be fully stopped and restrained by the majority. I'm certainly not arguing that individuals will always behave the way the majority thinks is moral. They won't even always behave the way *they themselves* think is moral -- their urges, learned precepts, etc. are often going to be in conflict. That's life; we balance conflicting forces.

      Since humans can adapt to any given society, it implies that basically they are amoral and simply take on the morality of their society so that they can survive.

      Humans can't adapt to any given society. Humans break down in societies/situations that require them to act in a way that's simply too strongly against their instincts and/or logical reasoning. They rebel (even if it means death). They flee (even if it means death). They commit suicide (even... yeah).

      Witness the ability of mobs and people lost in the wilderness to abandon all sense of morality and act purely hedonistically.

      Actually, I've never witnessed this. I have spent time lost in the wilderness -- it was stressful, but I never thought of taking a hatchet to anyone's head. Does that happen often? I hear a lot more stories about how people went to heroic lengths to save the group. Mobs (as seen on TV) can be frightening -- that's a sort of dark side to our cooperative instincts; once you're in a group of people it's possible to act without stopping to thin

    94. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      No, you missed the point. You steal, you're a thief. Does the dictionary definition say anything about whether you can afford the thing, or why you stole it?

      It does not. It doesn't care why you did it, neither do I, and neither does the law - or rather, it shouldn't.

      Every kind of asshole behavious is a disorder these days. It's just bleeding heart liberals making excuses for criminal scum because they can't cope with the reality that life isn't a fairytale world and there are bad people in it.

      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    95. Re:Its remarkably easy to scam people by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      And where, I ask you, did I ever say they weren't thieves? I didn't. I specifically said that they're thieves, just as you do. Unlike you, I went into detail about their motives, to make a distinction about why they're thieves. There's nothing in their motives that changes the fact that they're thieves, but it does change the best way to deal with them from punishment (which won't remove their uncontrollable impulse to steal) to treatment (which can actually help in some cases).

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
  2. Yeah... by GammaKitsune · · Score: 5, Funny

    That is what worries Mr. Sharma's wife, Damaris, 21, who has no time for the Internet as she raises the couple's 1-year-old daughter, Bellamarie.
    "I hate computers," she said. "I think they're the devil."


    Sorry. I just thought that was funny, and had to post it.

    --
    Gamertag: WyleType
    1. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do I get the feeling she was using a microsoft product?

    2. Re:Yeah... by bsartist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, I got a laugh out of it. But it's kind of depressing to think about, and all too common - too many people would rather blame the tool (in this case a computer) than admit that their spouse/child/dog/whatever has done something wrong. It's sad to think that this woman might truly believe that a machine somehow corrupted her poor innocent husband and turned him to a live of evil.

      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    3. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Holy sweet, merciful fuck, you are an unbelievable loser.

    4. Re:Yeah... by GammaKitsune · · Score: 1

      Sort of like those daemonic videogames that turn ordinary teens into one-man WMDs.

      --
      Gamertag: WyleType
    5. Re:Yeah... by Zxsw85 · · Score: 1
      "I hate computers," she said. "I think they're the devil." Sorry. I just thought that was funny, and had to post it.
      Having spent some volunteer time at an old folk home, I can readily attribute that this sentiment is not exclusive to this one woman.

      The only problem is, the kind of people that are being discussed don't really get counted, because, well, their not fond posting on forums on which people collectively discuss their frustration with computers.
    6. Re:Yeah... by 0racle · · Score: 4, Funny

      I hate it when people over react. Computers are the TOOLS of the Devil, not the Devil himself.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    7. Re:Yeah... by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "It's sad to think that this woman might truly believe that a machine somehow corrupted her poor innocent husband and turned him to a live of evil."

      Some say temptation is a form of evil. Computer offers temptation, person becomes evil. Though I agree that this rationale is flawed, we're all a little guilty of it at one time or another. The logic usually runs along the lines of "If this hadn't happened, I'd be happy now." Easy to understand, really.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    8. Re:Yeah... by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, but everything offers temptation. Even church offers temptation for some people. Church is the ultimate temptation. Do what we say, and you'll go to heaven when you die, and live in happiness for eternity. If someone goes to church everyday, do we say they are addicted, and send them to rehab? All things have the power to do evil. Doing something that hurts others is wrong. Doing something that detracts from your own well being is bad. But saying that a tool is "the devil" because it can be used for evil is just stupid. The computer has helped tons more people then it has caused harm to. Are we supposed to outlaw cameras because they can be use for spying, or child porn?

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    9. Re:Yeah... by Alaria+Phrozen · · Score: 0

      live = verb life = noun Get it right please.

    10. Re:Yeah... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1
      It's sad to think that this woman might truly believe that a machine somehow corrupted her poor innocent husband and turned him to a live of evil.
      It's a common response by the spouses of addicts.

      The spouse blames [whatever] because it enabled or allowed the behavoir.

      Addiction support groups are setup to deal with both addicts and their spouses.

      If the guy had allowed his life to be devoured by Everquest, would you still blame her for thinking computers were the devil?
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    11. Re:Yeah... by bsartist · · Score: 1
      If the guy had allowed his life to be devoured by Everquest, would you still blame her for thinking computers were the devil?
      Yes, without question I would. A computer is just a lump of silicon, plastic, and metal. It doesn't make you do anything, and claiming that it does is just as big a cop-out as claiming your neighbor's dog is telling you to kill people.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    12. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Are we supposed to outlaw cameras because they can be use for spying, or child porn?
      Probably. We outlaw guns because they can be used for murdering people.
    13. Re:Yeah... by Nutria · · Score: 1
      Some say temptation is a form of evil. Computer offers temptation, person becomes evil. Though I agree that this rationale is flawed, we're all a little guilty of it at one time or another. The logic usually runs along the lines of "If this hadn't happened, I'd be happy now." Easy to understand, really.

      That's the flawed logic. The correct aphorism is: an idle mind is the Devil's workshop. Without pressing familial responsibilies to keep their minds and hands occupied, young people too easily get in trouble.

      I.e., if Sharma worked all day, and came home to help take care of his family, there would be no time for him to get into mischief.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    14. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A computer is just a lump of silicon, plastic, and metal. It doesn't make you do anything, and claiming that it does is just as big a cop-out as claiming your neighbor's dog is telling you to kill people.
      Well, a gun is just a lump of plastic and metal. It doesn't make you do anything, yet somehow we try to pass all sorts of legislation to keep them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.
    15. Re:Yeah... by Nutria · · Score: 1
      I hate it when people over react. Computers are the TOOLS of the Devil, not the Devil himself.

      The Christian would say that the Devil uses any weakness to ensare the mortal soul.

      The last(?) line in the movie Devil's Advocate http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118971/ is a perfect example of this:
      Vanity: my favorite sin.
      No need for computers. In his moment of moral triumph, the heroic young lawyer does himself in.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    16. Re:Yeah... by Moofie · · Score: 1

      "their not fond posting on forums on which people collectively discuss their frustration with computers."

      Have one of them teach you grammar.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    17. Re:Yeah... by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      That is such a mediocre movie and a total waste of Al Pacino's talent. While I wouldn't say it's one of the worst movies of all time, it's an incredibly stupid waste of time (and I don't mean that in the good way). Completely forgettable, or it would have been if you had never brought it up. I hate you.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    18. Re:Yeah... by Joebert · · Score: 1
      That is what worries Mr. Sharma's wife, Damaris, 21, who has no time for the Internet as she raises the couple's 1-year-old daughter, Bellamarie. "I hate computers," she said. "I think they're the devil."

      *fast forward 16 years*

      Ma, ma, mama said, virtual reality is the devil !
      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    19. Re:Yeah... by bsartist · · Score: 1
      A computer is just a lump of silicon, plastic, and metal. It doesn't make you do anything, and claiming that it does is just as big a cop-out as claiming your neighbor's dog is telling you to kill people.
      Well, a gun is just a lump of plastic and metal. It doesn't make you do anything
      Quite right. To quote an over-used catchphrase, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Computers don't commit identify theft, people commit identify theft.

      yet somehow we try to pass all sorts of legislation to keep them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.
      I'm not sure who you're referring to with that "we", but it ain't me. I'm not even in favor of having to register firearms.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    20. Re:Yeah... by Warg!+The+Orcs!! · · Score: 0, Troll

      Most nations outlaw guns because they are used for murdering (and robbing and raping) people. There are notable exceptions where you are constitutionally guaranteed the right to be killed with your own loaded handgun that you kept in your bedside drawer where the burglars can easily find it.

      --
      Travelling forward in time at a rate of 1 second per second.
    21. Re:Yeah... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      What does being Christian have to do with the movie Devil's advocate? Is this the new bible? All Christians should look for quotes from this movie on how to live their life.

      And how is "The Christian" anyway, anybody I know? Is it the Pope? or George Bush?

      Your post raises so many questions.

    22. Re:Yeah... by Nutria · · Score: 1
      What does being Christian have to do with the movie Devil's advocate?

      Nothing. I'm an atheist.

      However, Christians traditionally have believed that Satan is The Enemy, the one out to tempt humans into Sin. But you knew that, right?

      Is this the new bible? All Christians should look for quotes from this movie on how to live their life.

      I went back and re-read my post, but didn't see words remotely related to inferring that The Devil's Advocate is a guide to Christian living.

      Your post raises so many questions.

      Only in someone who does not read, and jumps to conclusions.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    23. Re:Yeah... by tylernt · · Score: 1
      --
      DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
    24. Re:Yeah... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      I haven't jumped to any conclusions. Maybe I am dim, but I can't see what the subject of your post, which is reasonable and contained in the first line, has to do with the film you quote? It is just doesn't make any sense. Did you confuse two different posts? Just can't quite see the connection between Christian beliefs and some movie you saw once!

    25. Re:Yeah... by magores · · Score: 1

      live = verb life = noun Get it right please.

      "Live" is a verb, while "Life" is a noun.

      Punctuation, capitalization, and grammar. Please use them rightly. /Failed grammar nazis is the funniness.

    26. Re:Yeah... by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 1

      Yeah. I agree with you. I hate blindly following preachers who end up fleecing the flock for all they are worth. I am sorry but I don't think Churches should be like that. Let ME give WILLINGLY. The bible does say to tithe, but is this REALLY what God wants? What the church should say is give what god puts on your heart. That is the only true way to help out the church.

      Now my wife will tell you the Bible is one hundred percent true but I personally do not believe that it is. Doesn't matter what any church says or any pastor, preacher or the Pope but everyone has a agenda. The Pope has an agenda and so do other churches. This even goes as far back as when the Bible was originally written. It's also been translated into many languages and with in languages tehre are many versions or translations. There's NIV, KJV, ASB and more. You can likely find a bible that you may be able to infer that something is ok when it really is wrong. People will likely tell you that there's no agenda in the Bible but humans being what they are it is nearly impossible to avoid.

      The Bible is a important tool in Chrisitianity, but it's not the only tool. Prayer is another. Prayer is the cell phone to god essentially. We don't always get the answer we want, but we do get answered.

      Now that the biblical talk is over, I will share my opinion on this....this guy is scum. Period. Should he be put to death? No way. Should he feel bad? Heck yeah! Should he be put in a Jail with no computer access? Definitely. BUT the main problem with ID theft is it is TOO easy to get this stuff now adays. We need to make credit cards as well as ID cards more difficult to thieve. The code on the back is a start, but it's not the end all be all.

      --

      Gorkman

    27. Re:Yeah... by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1
      It's sad to think that this woman might truly believe that a machine somehow corrupted her poor innocent husband
      I wonder if she really is his wife, as she claims to be...
      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    28. Re:Yeah... by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      But guns don't have any usefule purpose apart from killing people. Computers do. You could say the same about cars.

      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    29. Re:Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Church is the ultimate temptation. Do what we say, and you'll go to heaven when you die, and live in happiness for eternity.

      You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

      (Temptation implies trying to get you to do something bad. Addiction is being similarly misused. It used to imply things like having withdrawal symptoms. Nowadays it's "anything people do often" ... you could more rightfully say that people are "addicted" to eating and breathing than so many things called addictions.)

    30. Re:Yeah... by Nutria · · Score: 1
      I haven't jumped to any conclusions. Maybe I am dim, but I can't see what the subject of your post, which is reasonable and contained in the first line, has to do with the film you quote? It is just doesn't make any sense. Did you confuse two different posts? Just can't quite see the connection between Christian beliefs and some movie you saw once!

      http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=190319&cid= 15658542

      I am making the point that in traditional Christian belief, the Devil will use any tactic to ensnare the weak. The vanity of the "hero lawyer" is what Satan uses to ensnare him, just as boredom and a computer "ensnared" Sharma.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    31. Re:Yeah... by Warg!+The+Orcs!! · · Score: 1
      Of course, People + guns = safety

      While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used to commit a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit suicide than to be used in self-defense.
      -A Kellerman, et al. Journal of Trauma, August 1998; Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu.Rev Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40.)

      The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.
      -Exerpt from a tutorial on firearms for medical students at the University of Utah

      Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War.
      -Based on data from CDC National Center for Health Statistics
      --
      Travelling forward in time at a rate of 1 second per second.
    32. Re:Yeah... by tylernt · · Score: 1

      The very first result in the link I posted estimates 2 to 2.5 million DGU's per year. Now compare that number of DGUs to 30 to 40 thousand homicides by firearm per year in the US.

      When the number of homicides by firearms per year exceeds the number of DGUs, then you can tell me guns do more harm than good.

      --
      DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
    33. Re:Yeah... by Danse · · Score: 1

      The first two quotes you use both reference the Kellerman study, which has been widely debunked for numerous errors in its methodology. By other doctors no less.

      http://www.building-tux.com/dsmjd/rkba/kellerman.h tm

      http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Suter/med-lit/ benefits.html#43times

      http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-43.html

      As for the third quote, I could list several other causes of death that greatly outnumber gun-related deaths. You're not really making any sort of point there.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
  3. so what proof do we have of this guys actual name by RobertLTux · · Score: 4, Funny

    n/t

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  4. Stupid Criminal? by locokamil · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can anyone say... script kiddie?

    The guy is clearly dumb as a rock. Who the hell takes a stolen credit card, buys stuff with it, and then has the stuff delivered to his doorstep???!!? I don't know jack about stealing identities, but this guy's MO is just plain stoopid.

    Trust the mainstream media to make him sound like some kind of twisted, tortured genius.

    1. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Freaky+Spook · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most criminals are dumb, thats why.

      He may not be robbing liquor stores but what he is doing is till fairly petty crime, it doesn't take much intelligence to do what he does.

      Thats probably the reason why you see so many people getting caught for this stuff, any geek knows the dangers of using a stolen credit card and ways to avoid getting caught, but I'm sure most of them are too busy posting on slashdot to bother.

    2. Re:Stupid Criminal? by this+great+guy · · Score: 1

      This is why he got caught, because he did not care about the safeness of his delivery procedure (whatever the reason was, laziness, etc). For every man like him in jail, there are hundreds of others who are more careful, who use safe drop mailboxes, who are currently enjoying their scaming activities. And a lot of those people will probably never get caught.

    3. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, did you RTFA? He was class valedictorian at Rikers Island jail. He MUST be a genius!

    4. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Pink+Tinkletini · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, most criminals who get caught are dumb. You don't hear about the smart ones--they don't get caught.

    5. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I used to work for a major online retailer and people consistently purchased items from us using stolen credit cards. Sometimes we would even be warned by UPS that the address was a known fraud address. At first we would try and report them so that they would get caught. Unfortunately, the police will do nothing unless the owner of the credit card decides to press charges. The owners of the credit cards however just issue a chargeback and don't lose anything so there is little incentive to do so. They would also have to file a complaint with the police department where the guy lived. At this point it is a Federal crime because it involves interstate theft. The Feds are also not much help. They will laugh at you unless the crime is worth several thousand dollars. In our case it was always a couple hundred. Eventually, we stopped even trying to do anything on the end of prosecution and turned to strict prevention and detection. I am guessing that someday the law will change but for now the police are too busy writing traffic tickets to deal with hard to prosecute internet crime.

    6. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Skidge · · Score: 1

      Perhaps he got complacent after early successes. His first few attempts at theft went flawlessly, so as he went on to do more, he began to feel like he'd never get caught.

    7. Re:Stupid Criminal? by NormalVisual · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's exactly how the situation was related to a friend of mine by a wiser-than-average deputy sheriff some years ago. The crimes that get solved are usually the ones perpetrated by criminals that fail to plan ahead, or whose impulses exceed their capability for rational and careful thought.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    8. Re:Stupid Criminal? by mochan_s · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The guy is clearly dumb as a rock. Who the hell takes a stolen credit card, buys stuff with it, and then has the stuff delivered to his doorstep???!!? I don't know jack about stealing identities, but this guy's MO is just plain stoopid.

      That is what he got caught and charged on.

      But consider this scenario. Suppose he uses Paypal to send money through credit cards to a fake account linked to a bank account created using a fake driver's license and social security number. I don't think the banks actually have a way to check the validity of either of them.

      Now, if he got your online banking info and a maybe copy of your check (not sure about this part, my bank just started not using full numbers just last month in online banking), you're screwed. It can be emptied and no chargebacks - nothing.

      The main evil is those phishing e-mails. If you get enter your info in there, you're screwed big time.

      I suppose it's easier to get credit cards by buying lists from hackers who have gotten into e-commerce sites but maybe more dangerous to use?

      But, this is not even identity theft; the real evil starts when people start taking loans in your name. This happened at our local housing complex. The parents of students going to school would co-sign the lease agreements that required a SSN and address and all that. A clerk working there would copy the document and request whatever amount of financial aid she wanted and just cash it in. She got caught only because she was too stupid to cover her trail. I'm sure there are a lot of experts out there who do it perfectly and cover their trail perfectly.

      BTW, as a disclaimer, this is just stuff I've noticed. I don't visit or know of those ID theft sites.

    9. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Nutria · · Score: 1
      whose impulses exceed their capability for rational and careful thought.

      In other words, and generalized, men, especially young men.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    10. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guy I know who works for a bank told me about a credit card scam he heard about. The scammers rented out office space in Sydney, bought stuff on the dodgy cards and had them delivered to Sydney by courier (and left at an unattended reception). After that, different couriers did a pickup at the same location, and shipped it off to them in the UK. I guess they used legitimate payment for the second part. It was small-volume, high value stuff, like iPods, etc.

      As a nice touch, they bought fresh flowers for the reception area, which were delivered every week.

    11. Re:Stupid Criminal? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      Who the hell takes a stolen credit card, buys stuff with it, and then has the stuff delivered to his doorstep???!!?
      Oh shit...
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    12. Re:Stupid Criminal? by debrain · · Score: 1

      Trust the mainstream media to make him sound like some kind of twisted, tortured genius.

      Apparently he was valedictorian at his high school, from jail. Perhaps this says something about the public education system. Or the available outlets for intellectual stimulation for his demographic.

    13. Re:Stupid Criminal? by benzapp · · Score: 1

      No kidding.

      When I was in high school, kids would do this all the time. They worked at grocery stores and would just keep credit cards on busy days. The hardest part of carding was staking out houses to find out which ones were vacant and/or the people were on vacation. Put a nice note on the door for the UPS man and the stuff gets put on the back porch.

      Who the hell in their right mind would use a stolen credit card to buy shit and have it sent to YOUR house?

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    14. Re:Stupid Criminal? by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      There are two types of impulsive, irrational people: men, and women.

  5. None. by krell · · Score: 0

    The name and profile probably fit some unknowing retired auto worker in Cleveland. The master identity thief has pulled yet another one.

    --
    Where were you when the voynix came?
    1. Re:None. by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1
      The name and profile probably fit some unknowing retired auto worker in Cleveland.

      It's not possible. Cleveland doesn't really exist. That area you see on the map is not land, but is actually part of the Great Lakes. Putting "Cleveland" there was all part of an elaborate joke that George Washington played on General Cornwallis.

    2. Re:None. by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      Cleveland does exist...they just want you to think it's underwater because that's where the Stargate is.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  6. Addict, My Foot by PavementPizza · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's this "identity theft addict" balonium? Do you call bank robbers "bank robbing addicts"? All bad behavior is not addiction. The guy is a lowlife crook who found an easy way to make money and kept coming back to it, plain and simple.

    --
    Viper is the preferred editor of the Emacs operating system.
    1. Re:Addict, My Foot by bsartist · · Score: 1
      What's this "identity theft addict" balonium?
      Your honor, my client pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. He's addicted to this type of behavior and cannot control his actions.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    2. Re:Addict, My Foot by whoop · · Score: 1

      Ala the recent South Park, just call it a disease and then there's nothing you can do about it, so might as well keep right on doing it. You get sympathy and can keep doing it, what more is there?

    3. Re:Addict, My Foot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were going to call it "money addict", but they realized that would put him in the same category as politicians, so they changed it. A cold is not the same thing as the ebola virus, y'know? :)

    4. Re:Addict, My Foot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The addiction was the ease, not the act. Don't fly off the handle.

    5. Re:Addict, My Foot by Zxsw85 · · Score: 1

      People get addicted to different things.

      Some people get addicted to making money, so they choose to work more than they need for survival, for the possibility of having greater economic freedom.

      From personal experience, people may get addicted to stealing for the thrill, even when there is no financial basis. To use a heavily scrutinized event, look at Wynona Ryder (sp?).

      Now assuming the above is true, is it that hard to believe that poor people may get addicted to identity theft because of the ease and benefits?

    6. Re:Addict, My Foot by Mad_Rain · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's this "identity theft addict" balonium? Do you call bank robbers "bank robbing addicts"? All bad behavior is not addiction. The guy is a lowlife crook who found an easy way to make money and kept coming back to it, plain and simple.

      According to one of the investigators, ""We were surprised at how forthcoming he was," Mr. Ruh said. "He was very proud of his accomplishments."

      Looking back at some of Mr. Sharma's other comments in the article, I began to check off a number of traits that may or may not be evident: Glib and superficial charm; Grandiose sense of self-worth; Need for stimulation; Pathological lying; Conning and manipulativeness; Lack of remorse or guilt; Shallow affect; Callousness and lack of empathy; Parasitic lifestyle; Poor behavioral controls; Promiscuous sexual behavior; Early behavior problems; Lack of realistic, long-term goals; Impulsivity; Irresponsibility; Failure to accept responsibility for own actions; Many short-term marital relationships; Juvenile delinquency; Revocation of conditional release; Criminal versatility.

      Those traits make up a common psychopath.

      --
      "What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
    7. Re:Addict, My Foot by kisielk · · Score: 1

      I'm a self professed j-walking addict. Sometimes even when the crosswalk is near, I'll *still* run across the road :p

    8. Re:Addict, My Foot by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      You're not the first person to feel this way. An insanity defense in a criminal case cannot be based on a disease whose symptom is criminality.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    9. Re:Addict, My Foot by Joebert · · Score: 1

      Send him to one of thoose places they cut off your hands for stealing.
      See how much of an addict he is then, if he manages to do it again, put him in charge of loss prevention & make sure he's well taken care of.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    10. Re:Addict, My Foot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "What's this "identity theft addict" balonium? Do you call bank robbers "bank robbing addicts"? All bad behavior is not addiction. The guy is a lowlife crook who found an easy way to make money and kept coming back to it, plain and simple."


      Shouldn't that rather be "Not all bad behaviour is addiction"? Or is there no form of addiction you would consider leading to bad behaviour?

    11. Re:Addict, My Foot by jcr · · Score: 2, Funny

      He's addicted to this type of behavior and cannot control his actions.

      "Sucks to be him, counselor. His victims are addicted to kicking the shit out of him. Bailiff, please throw the defendant to the gallery."

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    12. Re:Addict, My Foot by SamSim · · Score: 1

      I don't think this is an attempt to label everything bad you might do as an "addiction" needing medical treatment rather than conventional punishment. I think this is just people using sloppy English. The noun "addiction" has gradually - casually - come to have the meaning "something you do a lot" instead of "something you have a genuine inability to stop doing".

      Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity.

    13. Re:Addict, My Foot by noidentity · · Score: 1

      YouSirAreASpacebarAddict!

    14. Re:Addict, My Foot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Promiscuous sexual behavior


      If that is a prerequisite then there are no psychopaths at Slashdot.
  7. Just looking for that sacrafice by penix1 · · Score: 1, Redundant

    The banking industry as well as Congress and just about every commerce site out there is just drooling to get their hands on a REAL identity thief. The "example" they make of them should be grand! I can just see it....Nothing left but a smoking boot!

    B.

    --
    This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    1. Re:Just looking for that sacrafice by SirTalon42 · · Score: 1

      You are too kind, sir.

  8. No Remorse??? by innocence18 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Did anyone else find this guys total lack of remorse in his actions a little...well...wrong!

    Not to mention this quote

    Mr. Sharma said, "because by then things have changed so much that it will be kind of hard for me to just go back in there and do everything."

    which implies that if it wasn't hard to get back in to he might consider it.

    What an ass!

    --
    Anonymity of the internet is responsible for the views expressed in my post.
    1. Re:No Remorse??? by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The man is trying to set goals for himself. "If I can just make it a year or two without doing it" kinda stuff.

      It's like a druggie rationalizing "If I don't score for a year or two, by then things will have changed so much that it will be kind of hard for me to just go back out there and buy drugs again."

      What that statement really reveals is that he hasn't quite accepted that, if it really is an addictive behavior for him, he'll never be able to use a computer again and go near a chatroom or web forum without someone sitting at his shoulder monitoring what he does & where he goes.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  9. Shiva Sharma? by bsartist · · Score: 5, Funny

    Are we offshoring identity theft to India too?

    --
    Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    1. Re:Shiva Sharma? by pen · · Score: 2, Funny

      We must take action quickly and protect our economy against this offshoring threat. I propose introducing legislation that creates incentive to conducting identity theft within our borders instead of off-shoring it.

    2. Re:Shiva Sharma? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Buy it.

      Or come down to India for complete privacy.

    3. Re:Shiva Sharma? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm with you. In fact, I'm going to start up a petition and I urge you all to sign it. Just email me your names, address, SSN's, bank account numbers...

    4. Re:Shiva Sharma? by ananthap · · Score: 1

      Hey looks like half trinidadian black and half asian indian. But born and bred outside of India (need I say where. The place with most computers per capita). So lets not convert this into an indian v non indian.

      About the tattoo of shiva on his right arm, I understand madonna - the singer , has lots of tattoos of indian gods on her bod.

      End

  10. My only question is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My only question is, why isn't he dead yet?

  11. Identity theft ISN'T! by SonicSpike · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Fraud |= theft. In plain English, fraud does not equal theft.

    It's the same as the copyright argument. You cannot steal someone's identity. You can use it frauduantly. You can pose as someone you are not. You can give false witness. But identity fraud ISN'T!

    --
    Libertas in infinitum
    1. Re:Identity theft ISN'T! by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, let us consider what an identity is, then. Say someone came to your home, took your face, robbed you of your fingerprints, and any other identifying marks on your person. Then they take some clothes typically worn by you. Then, they take your cards and do things in your name. Even the people who see your 'face' at the store see that your perpatrator is you. They do viscious things in your name.

      Now, we all know that is pretty far fetched. But taking identifying *information* about you and doing things with that is not that much different. My SS#, my CC#, my PINs, etc. identify who I am in the absence of me being able to be there in person, so yes, it is identity theft.

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
    2. Re:Identity theft ISN'T! by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Well, it may not be identity theft, but more like identity vandalism. Or an identity joy-ride. They borrow your identity for a while, and once they are sufficiently done destroying it, they stop using it. You still have your identity, but it is royally screwed. You have months of phone calls with banks ahead of you, trying to get your identity back to its original state.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Identity theft ISN'T! by Psychotria · · Score: 1

      What drugs are you on?

      Deception carried out for the purpose of achieving personal gain while causing injury to another party.

      Yes, fraud is not completely synonymous with theft, but fraud is always criminal. Fraud is usually used as a tool for theft. I'm not sure why your post is modded as insightful because, really, it's quite stupid. Fraud in 9 times out of 10 will == theft.

    4. Re:Identity theft ISN'T! by SonicSpike · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No drugs...

      I was talking about "theft of identity" not "using an identity in a fraudulent manner to commit theft". And you are right, fraud usually does lead to theft. But stealing someone's identity is near impossible.

      And both theft and fraud are criminal and should be treated as such.

      --
      Libertas in infinitum
    5. Re:Identity theft ISN'T! by BronsCon · · Score: 0

      Go apply for a loan after having your (perfect credit, no criminal record) identity stolen. When you're denied the loan and picked up by the cops in the same day, tell me that identity wasn't stolen and replaced with a different one.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  12. Piece of Crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thieves make me sick. I'm sure that most people don't have much love for them either, but this piece of crap wants someone to believe that it's an addiction that he might 'relapse' back into after prison. It's not an addiction, it's a crime with no excuse to justify it. You have no right to something that is not yours or that you did not earn and to try and pass your stealing off as an addiction is simply not taking responsibility. Sharma and his kind are worthless parasites on society.

  13. The essential psychological basis of a criminal by jjohnson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...is with the absence of any sense of responsibility for the consequences.

    "It's an addiction, no doubt about that," said Mr. Sharma

    --
    Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
  14. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by penix1 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Not trying to defend these thieves but:

    All it takes is common sense to know that clicking a link in an email is a no-no. Also, any site that asks for all the information these sites are asking for IN ONE PLACE is a big red flag. No site, not even a banking site, is going to ask you for your DOB, SSN, mother's maiden name, credit card PINs, etc all on the same page. People really should listen to their gut instinct when the red flags go up....

    B.

    --
    This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
  15. Congress ... maybe. Banks ... they don't care. by khasim · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The banking industry as well as Congress and just about every commerce site out there is just drooling to get their hands on a REAL identity thief. The "example" they make of them should be grand! I can just see it....Nothing left but a smoking boot!
    The banks don't care. Really, they don't.

    They get paid no matter what.

    The only people who suffer are the retailers who sold the stuff and who now get hit with a chargeback so they're out the money AND the product ...

    And the guy who got his number stolen.

    If the banks had to pay even 10% of the annual loss due to fraud, they'd be clamping down on EVERYTHING you did with your credit cards.

    Congress will like it because it gives them something that they can claim they are doing something about. But, in the end, they'll do nothing.

    It all comes down to WHO has to pay for these crimes. And the banks have made sure that it won't be them.
    1. Re:Congress ... maybe. Banks ... they don't care. by penix1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, on the credit card side you are right. On the online banking side you are wrong. The attention identity theft has received and will continue to receive when it gets worse will only cause people to not do anything involving money online. The more it happens, the less likely people will be to trust ANY site....

      B.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
  16. Not the Sharpest Tool... by monoqlith · · Score: 4, Interesting
    [...] sitting in the empty meeting hall at the Mohawk Correctional Facility in Rome, N.Y., where he is serving a two- to four-year term."
    Two to four years? Gosh, if he goes in front of the parole board after the two are up, what is he going to say to convince them he's reformed? Maybe this will work:
    "I get scared that when I get out, I might have a problem and relapse because it would be so easy to take $300 and turn it into several thousand."
    I hope those folks at Mohawk in N.Y. missed today's issue of the most *widely read newspaper in the world.* Seriously, he must have some sort of brain disorder.

    1. Re:Not the Sharpest Tool... by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      Completely OT:

      I came across an old thread of yours regarding Lyme disease that really interested me--I would greatly appreciate it if you would email me at tbc_42 [at] yahoo [dot com] or failing that, write a journal entry that I may reply to. I don't know that my health problems are Lyme-related (and to be honest I probably couldn't afford to find out--I make $8/hour, am uninsured, and have only a couple $k in the bank), but I'd very much like to hear your thoughts, if you'd be willing to listen.

    2. Re:Not the Sharpest Tool... by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      "it would be so easy to take $300 and turn it into several thousand"

      If he can do this then I'd like to hire him as my personal investor.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
  17. Re:THIS STORY SUCKS, GET OFF THE INTERNET ANTDUDE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did your daddy fondle you when mom was shopping?? Christ..Relax troll//

  18. Unravelling or being unwoven? by draxbear · · Score: 4, Interesting

    On the whole, we seem to be slowly moving from a "govern thyself" to a "If no-ones watching, why not?" frame of mind.

    I wonder if this is almost being encouraged by the powers that be as it fosters a feeling that it's ok for them to be watching because I no longer expect the others around me to be governing their own behavior...

    --
    --- I've completed diagnosis of your problem and can classify it as a YOYO...You're On Your Own
    1. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by Nutria · · Score: 5, Insightful
      On the whole, we seem to be slowly moving from a "govern thyself" to a "If no-ones watching, why not?" frame of mind.

      I wonder if this is almost being encouraged by the powers that be as it fosters a feeling that it's ok for them to be watching because I no longer expect the others around me to be governing their own behavior...


      IMO, this devolution stems from a set of interrelated and feedback-reinforcing factors, some of which are
      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    2. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by G-funk · · Score: 5, Insightful
      On the whole, we seem to be slowly moving from a "govern thyself" to a "If no-ones watching, why not?" frame of mind.


      I think the main reason for that is the vast array of laws that are simply to serve corporations, not the people. Nobody's going to argue that it shouldn't be illegal to kill somebody, or break into his house, rape his wife and walk out with his TV. But with laws like the DMCA and various other corporate welfare schemes, people going to jail for weed, how can any man have respect for what's law, rather than simply live by their own ideas of what's right, and simply try to avoid being caught when those two systems aren't in harmony?
      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    3. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by mikek3332002 · · Score: 1

      That is why people pirate software, because no one is watching.

    4. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      True. Any first-year law student can tell you that laws are created to keep the engines of commerce running, if not smoothly, then at least profitably. Justice doesn't enter into it, except in politicians' speaches.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      # the breakdown in the teaching of manners and responsibility

      Manners are a fun little game for children and old people, but I'm sorry, basic manners just glaze over the issue.
      I don't want my kid saying "sorry" because he has to, I want him to know what "sorry" means and say it if he needs to.
      "Please" and "thank you" are kinda twisted. It all becomes about how you say things instead of what you do.

      # "personal rights" overcoming "societal responsibilities"

        They're not mutually exclusive. Personal rights do not imply immoral behavior.
      And worse, social responsibility does NOT imply immoral behavior... Nobody considers it social responsibility to give to homeless people on the street.

      # the rise of the "lawyer society", and the fear of being sued

      Cause..effect...which? The lawyer society is an effect of this immorality. The irony is, it's -not- an effect of the fact that we have multiple moralities... it's an effect caused by those with money realizing they can -buy- morality.

      # dissolution of in loco parentis in neighborhoods and schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_ Independent_Community_School_District [wikipedia.org]

        so let me get this straight. Immorality stems from minors having the right to show their strong moralistic views when an authority figure that is NOT their natural parent has a different view? No, that doesn't cause immorality. Au contrare, if an immoral society -gains- those privelages, the children are defaulted to lower levels of morality, even if the parents are not. All in all, that -pressures- the "no one is watching", instead of "govern thyself". The shole is "someone to be watching" after all...

      # disappearence of the beat cop
      Dunno where you live, but the "beat cop" is everywhere around here...
      Innaproachability of the "beat cop" might be more of an issue. Every time I try to talk to a cop, I get looks, like "hey, you're between me and Dunkin Donuts..move".

      That the prison is more full of pot-smokers and bread-stealers than lawyers is the real issue... and how industrial sabotage of an industry is 5 years, but of an individual is 18 months. How rape gets you 5 years, and drug use gets you 10. How writing your name on a famous webpage gets you 15.

    6. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by codeviking · · Score: 1
      "personal rights" overcoming "societal responsibilities"

      I think this is one of the biggest problems in society today.

      --
      My way back has been erased.
    7. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by anandsr · · Score: 1

      Actually its not a devolution at all. Its just that we have more information.
      It is now far more difficult to hide behind a mask.
      It is very difficult to pressure the down and trodden from speaking out.
      That's all actual I would think we are improving slowly.
      Except for the USA. The people there are so much happy when their government
      tries to hide behind a mask.

    8. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by jkabbe · · Score: 1

      Any first-year law student can tell you that laws are created to keep the engines of commerce running, if not smoothly, then at least profitably.

      Well, this is certainly true on the federal level, since most legislation is passed by Congress under the authority granted by the Commerce Clause! :)

    9. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Sounds like somebody's an avid follower of Lazarus Long. Not that I disagree...

    10. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by boingo82 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or could it be because the "powers-that-be" themselves operate on the same policy?

      --
      As a republican I feel it my responsibity to manufacture criminals. People need punished!
    11. Re:Unravelling or being unwoven? by mr.witherspoone · · Score: 1

      This has been around forever. Even the Romans had the phrase, "ubi non accusator, ibi non judex." But then again their empire did fall...

  19. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Compholio · · Score: 1

    People really should listen to their gut instinct when the red flags go up....

    Look it up in your gut

  20. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Belgarion89 · · Score: 1

    Unfortunatly, most people's gut instinct is "OOO! Money!!" Greed and selfishness are the basest of all human vices, especially in a capitalist society. As long as people want a quick buck, people will be getting ripped off.

  21. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Wilf_Brim · · Score: 3, Interesting

    True, but check TFA. The email scam referred to was only one of his early efforts. His later (and more lucrative) scams involved buying numbers and doing direct financial transfers from those accounts. One of my accounts had something similar happen to it. It was only due to the fact that the individual responsible had used two smaller charges the previous day, and it happend to be the day that I was paying bills and saw the two fradulent charges during an online reconciliation that I discovered it and was able to cancel the transfer. I'm starting to think that the entire credit card system is broken. It is just far too easy to obtain stolen numbers, and far to easy to negotiate into goods or (as above) cash. That cards can still be used for wire transfers absolutely boggles my mind. Unfortunately, I don't know of any better system. Right now I use "disposable" numbers as often as I can when doing ecommerce. They minimize (but do not elminate) the risk, but they can't be used for recurring charges, and relatively few card issuers. I'm thinking that the penalities here are too light. This guy was involved in grand larceny, easily more than $200k. Why only a couple of years? Small time drug dealers (an offense with far less of a victim) get many times that penality. When the takings are so lucrative, the chances of being caught low, and the penalities light, its no wonder this is such a fast growing crime. Why perform an armed bank robccbery (average take, about $4,000 per the FBI) and get 20 years if you get caught when credit card fraud ($10k per theft) only will get you 2? And did you notice that some of his biggest takes were when he was under indictment and out on bail? WTF?

  22. I'm not sure I get it... by crossmr · · Score: 2, Funny

    could you put another metaphor or two in the summary so that its really spelled out...

    1. Re:I'm not sure I get it... by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      Rods and reels that fleece the unwitting? It's not a mixed metaphor, it's a mash-up!

      Frankly, I need a car analogy to explain anything having to do with computers or I'm totally lost. (As lost as a babe in the woods thrown out with the bath water.)

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  23. Pretty funny! by penix1 · · Score: 1

    I forgot he did that skit...lol...

    "Colbert Report: Truthiness Anyone can read the news to you. Stephen promises to feel the news at you."

    B.

    --
    This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
  24. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

    The problem is, is that many people don't have a gut instinct about this kind of situation. There's 2 kinds of gut instincts that people can get. 1 is built in by evolution. After millions of years, the human body is wired to react certain ways to certain stimuli. This is stuff like being scared when you are approached by a tiger. The second kind is that built from prior experiences in your lifetime. If you grow up with no exposure to computers, a web site that asks for all this information may very well seem like a valid site. Why not, you get letters in the mail offering you credit cards, where they ask your DOB, SSN, Mother's Maiden Name, Other Credit Card Numbers, and all in the same application. Why wouldn't a web site be able to ask for the same information.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  25. The solution is simple. by khasim · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even for wire-transfers with a credit card. Simply have the bank call the phone numbers they have on record for you and have you press a button sequence to authorize the purchase or wire-transfer.

    The banks already have the systems to do automated calling.

    The banks already have your phone numbers. And your mailing address.

    Now the thief has to steal your credit card numbers ... and re-route the phone system.

    Or steal the numbers and fake your ID and go to a bank branch and change the phone numbers.

    All of that is possible for a thief to do ... but the more steps that it takes, the more likely it is that the thief will fail to complete it. And the easier it will be to track him. Although it can't get much easier than tracking this punk. He gave them his address to deliver his stolen purchases to.

    But doing that would move the risk and costs to the banks. They prefer it the way it currently is because the banks aren't losing money on these fraud cases.

  26. Addiction is a description, not an excuse by fm6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There probably are bank robbers who are addicted to what they do. The concept of "addiction" is just a model for understanding destructive behavior. It's not an attempt to excuse it. In fact, the opposite is true: people who are fighting addiction, and the people who help them (often addicts themselves) will tell you that the worst thing you can do for an addict is overlook his or her misdeeds.

  27. This guy is an idiot by humankind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stories like this really irk me, and show how the industry wants to make the notion of identity theft much scarier than it really is. This is an example of an "identity thief?" This moron used stolen credit cards and shipped the crap to his parents' house where he lived. He's an idiot. Other people with common sense wouldn't do stupid shit like what he was doing. There's no skill involved in what he did. Any waiter or someone who handles credit cards on a daily basis could do the same thing, but they don't because they're not idiots like this guy.

    In the end, anybody he ripped off probably didn't have to pay, so it was the merchants that got screwed if anybody, and this is becoming harder and harder to pull off.

    If there's one thing this article does point out, it's that if the feds really want to stop identity theft damages, they'd shut down Western Union. That money transfer service pretty much solely exists now to play a party to scams of this nature.

    1. Re:This guy is an idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that, and for Mexicans to send the dough they earn here back home to help the family.

    2. Re:This guy is an idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. I had to use Western Union last month to wire $2000 to a rural state who said they were holding my husband ransom. (Well not exactly, he was arrested for DWI, charges later dropped)

      Either way the bondsperson would nto accept a credit card over the phone and would only take cash. I am glad that a money wire transfer service was available or my husband may have missed his flight.

    3. Re:This guy is an idiot by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      "He's an idiot."

      But it worked for years for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

      "Other people with common sense wouldn't do stupid shit like what he was doing."

      Because they are decent or know they'd get caught eventually (and care). Maybe it worked because it was so simple?

      "There's no skill involved in what he did."

      But it worked! Simple plans are better than complex.

      "Any waiter or someone who handles credit cards on a daily basis could do the same thing"

      But all the numbers could be traced to a common place and time (the waiter and the restaurant). This guy was getting them from different places and times so it was harder to find the common thread.

      The main thing this article shows is how little effort is put into prosecuting this type of crime. This guy got caught FOUR times. It seems that by focusing on the handful of big obvious thefts they ignore the even bigger crooks who commit their crimes a few at a time for many years. They need to take even small frauds seriously as they may lead back to something bigger.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
  28. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

    Why only a couple of years? Small time drug dealers (an offense with far less of a victim) get many times that penality. When the takings are so lucrative, the chances of being caught low, and the penalities light, its no wonder this is such a fast growing crime. Why perform an armed bank robccbery (average take, about $4,000 per the FBI) and get 20 years if you get caught when credit card fraud ($10k per theft) only will get you 2.

    First of all, they haven't started a war on identity theft yet, so until they do, drugs is the trump card. There is nothing worse than drugs, because there is a war against it. Well, there's terrorism, but there's a war against that too. Really, depending on the level of you drug dealing, it can be just as bad as terrorism in terms of repercussions. And second of all, being armed is also a trump card. You have the right to bear arms, but you'd better not use those arms to commit a crime. Anything armed automatically quadruples your sentence. If you can manage to rob a bank unarmed, then you'll probably only get 2 years.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  29. Sarcastic Comment Imminent by Ruins · · Score: 0

    /begin sarcasm

    1) This guy is clearly a scum bag, and worst, he is probably in the lower 5% in terms of intelligence amongst his theiving peers as he got caught. But, he has "Hollywood good looks", an "Addiction" and couldn't help himself according to TF interview. Instead of being demonized, he is portrayed as just your average guy who made some wrong decisions. He is just a moron that CHOSE to cheat his way into money, and failed. How is this even news worthy?

    2) Everyone has an addiction. I am addicted to browsing the web at night and probably caffeine. That is not an excuse to do something that is morally and ethically wrong. Nor does it excuse the self-righteous way he presents himself. If you do something wrong, just take responsibility and say "Sorry. I made a mistake. I won't do it again". Blowing a one-line apology to a four-page article is crappy sensationalist journalism.

    3) "He enjoyed chatting on AOL". This pisses me off.

    Now excuse me while I go make a wrong decision and drive my car into some pedestrians. See, I am addicted to hitting people, ever since I played all those violent video games, like Grand Theft Auto. I can be contacted at "Ruins.Is@Moron.org" by the media if they wish to interview me. /end sarcasm

    --
    Berserk Manga > All
  30. What to do if.... by BobSutan · · Score: 5, Informative

    As I posted in another related story, if you ever suspect (or know) you've been the victim of Identity Theft, here's what to do:

    Contact the credit agency of your choice to put a fraud watch on your file. The agency you contact will notify the other two for you.

    Equifax: 1-800-525-6285; www.equifax.com; P.O. Box 740241, Atlanta, GA 30374-0241

    Experian: 1-888-EXPERIAN (397-3742); www.experian.com; P.O. Box 9532, Allen, TX 75013

    TransUnion: 1-800-680-7289; www.transunion.com; Fraud Victim Assistance Division, P.O. Box 6790, Fullerton, CA 92834-6790

    Its also a good idea to call 1-888-5OPTOUT to prevent banks, insurance companies, and those pesky fakers (remember the ChoicePoint fiasco) from getting ahold of your credit report. All 3 agencies use that same number for the opt out process. That should significantly cut down on those pre-approved credit card offers you get in the mail that can be stolen and used in your name as well.

    And for the Active Duty members in the crowd that happen to be TDY, you should consider getting an Active Duty military alert placed in your name in addition to a fraud alert. You can never be too safe when it comes to preventing ID theft. However, no matter what you do there's still no guarantee you won't fall victim to the random oddity that can occur (such as a bartender swiping your card # and going nuts on Amazon).

    For more info on how to minimize the risks of ID theft, or how to recover from it, check out the FTC's website at www.ftc.gov/idtheft

    --
    "On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
    1. Re:What to do if.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      www.xovod.com

    2. Re:What to do if.... by solitas · · Score: 1

      Good stuff to know. Thanks!

      --
      "It's time to take life by the cans." ~ Bender ("Bendin' in the Wind", ep. 3-13)
    3. Re:What to do if.... by locotx · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is great and all, but I found that most of the time the credit agencies don't help too much. I've been a victim. Big whoop, you have a "Credit Fraud Victim" tag on your credit reports. That still doesn't matter, a company can still grant that credit request. You can have "Do not open any more credit accounts for this person" on your credit report and guess what, that will not stop companies from granting it. Credit reporting companies are there to report the bad things and protect the companies that are granting credit and even then they are merely reporting a potential risk. They do not help the consumer. REPEAT. They do not help the consumer. I've had a "Credit Fraud Victim" label attached to all my credit reports (all 3 companies) and I have a case number with the FTC. And STILL, I get credit accounts opened up. Nothing says frustration than doing everything that has been asked only to find out a $13,000.00 loan has been granted without you knowing and now it's in collection. Then when you contact the company that granted the loan, they treat you as if you are a theft and have to prove you didn't request the loan. Where as my thought process is "Wait a second you sorry sack, you granted a loan and you didn't check and see if it was me and now you are saying that I am trying to trick you out of paying this, you must be nuts." It's a very frustrating battle. This is something that happens a lot . .it's the "elephant in the room no one is talking about". . . but until it happens to you . .you will not know the frustration of having your identity stolen (or used fradulently).

    4. Re:What to do if.... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      are merely reporting a potential risk. They do not help the consumer. REPEAT. They do not help the consumer. I've had a "Credit Fraud Victim" label attached to all my credit reports (all 3 companies) and I have a case number with the FTC.

      Did you lock your report? If you're in CA, that (supposedly) requires your OK to do a hard inquiry.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    5. Re:What to do if.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to mention that you can also put fraud watches on over the Internet. Click on this link and enter your credit card number, social security number, full name, mother's maiden name and the account numbers for all the bank accounts you want to protect.

    6. Re:What to do if.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hire a lawyer. This could be considered negligence on the part of the bank, and an actionable offense at that, seeing as how they are trying to collect (harrassment?)....

      At the very worst a sharply worded letter from the attorney can cut through red tape like a hot knife through butter.

      Have you contacted the police or FBI?

    7. Re:What to do if.... by orielbean · · Score: 1

      You sir have explained the big problem here. The onus is now put on the consumer to protect themselves, and the credit companies get the ease-of-use and business convenience to not have rigorous checks in place for this sort of thing. Even a simple mandatory check to the agencies to see if there are any flags on your account (like yours, the Victim) and then you would need to go to a new level of authentication. I work at Fidelity, and when the HP laptop was stolen, we put in a new series of authenticators to verify people who might have been affected by the theft. It would be extremely difficult for someone to get these questions answered and so far it's been succesfull. But even that is not enough. We need new laws in place that change the nature of credit and how it is too easily given out. The speed of business MUST slow down to keep the consumer from being run over with convenience. Good luck trying to lobby for that one. The country has seen a rash of the high profile data losses and still nobody talks about changing the fundaments of credit and the consumer's relation to it. That would fix the issue quite well, in my opinion.

  31. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by penix1 · · Score: 1

    Do you mean to imply that people are blind and deaf about identity theft with as much press as it has been getting? I know the American attention span is about that of a retarded gnat, but I didn't think it was so short as to be non-existant. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out when you are being scammed INCLUDING those credit card offers....

    B.

    --
    This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
  32. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

    You have the right to bear arms, but you'd better not use those arms to commit a crime. Anything armed automatically quadruples your sentence. If you can manage to rob a bank unarmed, then you'll probably only get 2 years.

    If the people you are robbing believe that you're armed, you have just committed armed robbery. Even if you have no weapon.

    People who use plastic guns or a banana in the pocket are armed robbers.

    LK

    --
    "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  33. Wrong - NOT THEFT! by SonicSpike · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Merriam Websters defines theft as: "the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it"

    When you use someone else's identity in a fraudulent manner, the original person STILL HAS THEIR IDENTITY!!! It is NOT THEFT, because you have not taken anything from them, they are deprived of nothing (except maybe some abstract type of sovereign individualism). But you are using their identity, and so are they!

    I think the fundamental issue here is that information, once in the open, logically belongs to no one nor can it really be 'possessed'.

    --
    Libertas in infinitum
    1. Re:Wrong - NOT THEFT! by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      OK then.

      'Identity copyright infringement'.

      Happy now?

    2. Re:Wrong - NOT THEFT! by bryanp · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but the actions taken with the fraudulently used identity do constitute theft. Whether it be the theft of money from a bank account or misuse of credit, thereby stealing from the credit card company and devaluing the credit rating of the person whose identity has been defrauded.

      --
      "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
    3. Re:Wrong - NOT THEFT! by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Good points, but your identity is no longer your identity if someone is manipulating it. If you suddenly have a criminal record - is your identity "yours" anymore?

      That aside, I do agree that Identity Fraud is probably a better term.

  34. Are you kidding? by MarkusQ · · Score: 1

    Shiva Sharma? by bsartist (550317) on 20:08 04 July 2006 (#15658123)

    Are we offshoring identity theft to India too?

    Oh come on! Do you seriously think that that's his real name?

    --MarkusQ

    1. Re:Are you kidding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Oh come on! Do you seriously think that that's his real name?

      It isn't his identity, it's mine. He stole it.

  35. Poor Mr Sharma ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's nothing wrong with this piece of human trash that a baseball bat couldn't fix.

  36. TFA by smvp6459 · · Score: 3, Informative

    TFA in case anyone else is having trouble with access:

    July 4, 2006
    Stolen Lives
    Identity Thief Finds Easy Money Hard to Resist
    By TOM ZELLER Jr.

    By the time of Shiva Brent Sharma's third arrest for identity theft, at the age of 20, he had taken in well over $150,000 in cash and merchandise in his brief career. After a certain point, investigators stopped counting.

    The biggest money was coming in at the end, postal inspectors said, after Mr. Sharma had figured out how to buy access to stolen credit card accounts online, change the cardholder information and reliably wire money to himself -- sometimes using false identities for which he had created pristine driver's licenses.

    But Mr. Sharma, now 22, says he never really kept track of his earnings.

    "I don't know how much I made altogether, but the most I ever made in a quick period was like $20,000 in a day and a half or something," he said, sitting in the empty meeting hall at the Mohawk Correctional Facility in Rome, N.Y., where he is serving a two- to four-year term. "Working like three hours today, three hours tomorrow -- $20,000."

    And once he knew what he was doing, it was all too easy.

    "It's an addiction, no doubt about that," said Mr. Sharma, who inflected his words with the sort of street cadence adopted by smart kids trying to be cool. "I get scared that when I get out, I might have a problem and relapse because it would be so easy to take $300 and turn it into several thousand."

    That ease accounts for the sizable ranks of identity-fraud victims, whose acquaintance with the crime often begins with unexplained credit card charges, a drained bank account or worse. The victims' tales have become alarmingly familiar, but usually lack a protagonist -- the perpetrator. Mr. Sharma's account of his own exploits provides the missing piece: an insight into both the tools and the motivation of a persistent thief.

    Identity theft can, of course, have its origins in a pilfered wallet or an emptied mailbox. But for computer-savvy thieves like Mr. Sharma, the Internet has forged new conduits for the crime, both as a means of stealing identity and account information and as the place to use it.

    The Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have invested millions of dollars in monitoring Internet sites where thousands of users from around the world congregate to swap tips about identity theft and to buy and sell personal data. Mr. Sharma frequented such sites from their earliest days, and the techniques he learned there have become textbook-variety scams.

    "Shiva Sharma was probably one of the first, and he was certainly one of the first to get caught," said Diane M. Peress, a former Queens County prosecutor who handled all three of Mr. Sharma's cases and who is now the chief of economic crimes with the Nassau County district attorney's office. "But the kinds of methods that he used are being used all the time."

    As far back as 2002, Mr. Sharma began picking the locks on consumer credit lines using a computer, the Internet and a deep understanding of online commerce, Internet security and simple human nature, obtained through years of trading insights with like-minded thieves in online forums. And he deployed the now-common rods and reels of data theft -- e-mail solicitations and phony Web sites -- that fleece the unwitting.

    Much of this unfolded from the basement of a middle-class family home in Richmond Hill, Queens, at the hands of a high school student with a knack for problem solving and an inability, even after multiple arrests, to resist the challenge of making a scheme pay off.

    That is what worries Mr. Sharma's wife, Damaris, 21, who has no time for the Internet as she raises the couple's 1-year-old daughter, Bellamarie.

    "I hate computers," she said. "I think they're the devil."

    A Thief's Tool Kit

    Mr. Sharma is soft-spoken, but he does not shrink from the spotlight. He gained fleeting attention after his first arrest, as the first person

  37. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    When Gmail sees an email it does not like, it will flag it and strip out all links in the message.

  38. Another Portrait by wbren · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Here's another portrait of what I imagine an identity thief would look like.

    --
    -William Brendel
    1. Re:Another Portrait by oaklybonn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am just so un-hip - whos this supposed to be?

  39. So what again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...are the names of those Atheist charities?

    1. Re:So what again... by ozmanjusri · · Score: 5, Informative
      So what again are the names of those Atheist charities?

      United Way, The Smith Family, Medecin Sans Frontieres, Oxfam, Starlight foundation, etc etc. If you weren't just trolling, have a look here http://www.secularhumanism.org/ for an insight into compassion in secular society.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    2. Re:So what again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to take the United Way off your list. It is a front organization which includes a number of organizations which have religious ties.

    3. Re:So what again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some examples of the United Way supporting right wing christian bigots:

                United Way (in general) supports Catholic Charities.
                The United Way of the Greater Winona [MN] Area supports two Boy Scout councils.
                The United Way of Central Ohio supports the Simon Kenton Boy Scout Council.

    4. Re:So what again... by Dekortage · · Score: 1

      United Way? Doctors Without Borders? Oxfam? They may be formally areligious (without religion) but they are hardly athiest (promoting a belief system without a God). These organizations work side-by-side with Christians and other religious organizations on a regular basis. I work for an international secular organization similar to Oxfam, and there are quite a few athiests among the employees, but there are also a significant number of believers in Christianity, Islam, Judiasm and a few other religions.

      --
      $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
    5. Re:So what again... by Iamthefallen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Many secular (and protestant) charities support Catholic charities.

      It doesn't mean there's a hidden agenda. It merely reflects the fact that catholic charities and churches can be found in many places where it would be too expensive, dangerous, or impractical to set up another office.

      If the purpose is the same, and someone else already has the infrastructure in place, it doesn't make much sense to spend money building a duplicate of that infrastructure.

      --
      Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
    6. Re:So what again... by pnuema · · Score: 1
      Some examples of the United Way supporting right wing christian bigots:

      United Way (in general) supports Catholic Charities.

      The United Way of the Greater Winona [MN] Area supports two Boy Scout councils.

      The United Way of Central Ohio supports the Simon Kenton Boy Scout Council.

      I've got to leap to the defense of the scouts. While it is true that the scouts do not allow homosexual leaders, it is more of a political decision than a bigotted one - they would lose too much money and membership if they were to allow it than if they maintain their current policies. And while the majority of the US membership is Chrisitan, the scouts have specific awards set up for more faiths than you can imagine: from Bhuddist to B'hai, Jewish, Taoist, Muslim...you name it, they are inclusive of it. You can be a satanist and be a Boy Scout, just not an atheist (as established by court case law).

      Speaking as a second generation Eagle Scout, Cub Scout leader, supporter of PFLAG, and non-Christian.

    7. Re:So what again... by PsychoKiller · · Score: 1

      Gates Foundation, and Warren Buffett.

    8. Re:So what again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're certainly wrong about two of those "secular" charities:

      Oxfam was founded in England in 1942 by Canon Theodore Richard Milford and the Oxford Meeting of the Quakers.

      The United Way was started in 1887 when a Denver priest, two ministers and a rabbi recognized the need for cooperative action to address their city's welfare problems. The Rev. Myron W. Reed, Msgr. William J. O'Ryan, Dean H. Martyn Hart and Rabbi William S. Friedman put their heads together to plan the first united campaign for ten health and welfare agencies. They created an organization to serve as an agent to collect funds for local charities, as well as to coordinate relief services, counsel and refer clients to cooperating agencies, and make emergency assistance grants in cases which could not be referred.

      Source: Wikipedia

      They may be secular now, or they may attract a certain amount of support from atheists these days, but they certainly didn't start life as "atheist charities".

    9. Re:So what again... by boingo82 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's your point? I'm atheist and work side-by-side with Christians and other religions too. Somehow, I'm still atheist.

      --
      As a republican I feel it my responsibity to manufacture criminals. People need punished!
    10. Re:So what again... by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      While I agree that opening of scout leaders to homosexuals will result in a huge loss of money and membership to the organization, that does not make their decision moral or just. IMHO what is economically most viable for them is not the RIGHT thing to do. This to me sounds like "let's not recall the product, it'll cost too much!" type of thinking.

    11. Re:So what again... by pnuema · · Score: 1
      Unfortunately, in the real world, leaders of large organizations have to make these decisions all of the time. Many times it is necessary to do some small evil to do a large amount of good. People (and organizations) who live and die by their principles mostly die by them.

      Anyway, a publicly stated policy has abolutely no relation to how things are enforced. No one's private lives are investigated in the scouts. A homesexual leader in many cases can (and has) been tolerated by their unit, as long as he remains discreet. A complaint would have to be filed with the council, and the leader would have to admit to being homosexual before any action would be taken. A simple denial in most cases shuts the process down.

    12. Re:So what again... by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm gonna be modded Troll for this, but here we go anyhow.

      United way is not a charity.

      Oh sure, they may be listed as one and have all the benefits, but they do not help people.

      Their function is to collect money and give it to real charities. They never, ever directly help people.

      On top of that, they don't give all that money to the charities. They use 8% of it for their paychecks and literature. (This number could be wrong. They apparently don't advertise it anymore as anyone with a brain can figure out that anything above 0% is BAD. They used to advertise that most charities use 15% of the income for administrative expenses, but UW only used 8%. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that's about 23% total, if you give to UW instead of directly to the charity.)

      I'm not denying that UW has probably done some good somewhere. It just isn't nearly the sparkling ivory tower they want you to beleive. Add in the insane pressure they put on businesses and employees to donate, even if they don't have money... It's just wrong.

      A prior co-worker of mine pledged quite a bit more money per month than she could afford because she felt she had to. She was almost in tears trying to figure out what she was going to do. It took me almost 30 minutes to convince her that she not only didn't have to give, but that she could go to the store manager and recind her pledge and nothing bad would happen to her. This was the worst I'd seen, but it wasn't the only instance of people giving money when they shouldn't be.

      That same company I worked for required the store manager to give a certain portion of his paycheck to UW. They were rich, greedy bastards and I didn't mind that, but the mindset is totally wrong. UW should never have such a stranglehold on a company that such a thing can be possible.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    13. Re:So what again... by Dekortage · · Score: 1

      While individual Christians, Muslims, etc., frequently work side-by-side with non-religious people, it's less true on an organizational level. A pro-religious organization very rarely works with an anti-religious organization. So if very religious organizations work with Oxfom (for example) you can be pretty sure that Oxfam is not anti-religious. It may be secular but it is not atheist. Which are you?

      --
      $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
    14. Re:So what again... by jimbolaya · · Score: 1
      On top of that, they don't give all that money to the charities...anyone with a brain can figure out that anything above 0% is BAD.

      I have a brain. I also have a heart. Combined, they are what help me realize that charities need to employ a staff, and that staff needs to be paid (lest they also become charity cases). You're claim that "anything above 0% is bad," is ridiculous.

      If you're interested in getting the overhead number closer to 0%, volunteer for a charitable organization (though no sizable charity can run on volunteers alone). Encourage your company to donate valuable supplies or services (advertising, printing, web design or hosting, etc.) to charity. But just because the charity has a non-zero overhead doesn't mean it's bad. It means it and its staff are doing their job to reach out and help the community.

      --

      There ain't no rules here; we're trying to accomplish something.

    15. Re:So what again... by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Real charities will have overhead. I'm not arguing against their '15%' overhead as UW states they average.

      I'm arguing against UW's overhead. They aren't a charity. They do not help people. They only give money to the other charities. If you don't believe me, go ask them for help. They will (kindly) direct you to find a real charity. (The local one here doesn't even help you find that charity. They just tell you to go find it yourself. I know. My sister needed help and my mother tried. In the end, we were forced to get through it in-family in the end, as there were no organizations willing to help in our area.)

      They take 8% off the top and then give the money to a real charity. This is the % that should be 0%, not the % used by the real charities.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    16. Re:So what again... by will_die · · Score: 1

      According to the United Way of America's 990 form they usally charge 15% for administration but for major events they will drop that fee; so for 2005 thier costs where Programs: 88.13% Fund Raising: 1.02% Administrative: 10.83%.
      As opposed to something like the Union of Concerned Scientists, which pushes for the the widespread use of tire such as the ones that lead to 148 deaths and more than 500 injuries, does Programs: 78.67% Fund Raising: 14.84% Administrative: 6.47%

  40. Re:save money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    girlfriend.......Right!

  41. Just prove the US system is broken by jackjeff · · Score: 1

    As a European I still found amazing that you can "steal" someone else's identity by just getting his name and a social security number...

    In Europe, if you want to open a bank account, apply for a credit card, or any other credit you MUST show your ID in person (you know those ID cards that scare you...). The only thing that's really insecure are credit cards, but payments with your mere number over 100 euros are reimbursed if there's a fraud, which is quite easy to prove when the delivery address is not yours :) And knows what? Normal payment cards are more secure because we use a Chip and a PIN code so you can't duplicate the magnetic stripe in 15 seconds...

    Ok it's not perfect, but you'll never hear about someone getting strip of his money because he gave his name and a funny number to someone. Good old Europe :)

    1. Re:Just prove the US system is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Europe, if you want to open a bank account, apply for a credit card, or any other credit you MUST show your ID in person (you know those ID cards that scare you...).

      RTFA. He showed his fake ID many times. Did it help? There's no reason someone couldn't pull the same scam in Europe.

    2. Re:Just prove the US system is broken by jimicus · · Score: 1
      And knows what? Normal payment cards are more secure because we use a Chip and a PIN code so you can't duplicate the magnetic stripe in 15 seconds...


      So now the MO has changed.

      Instead of having your identity stolen, one of the following happens:

      - The magnetic stripe on your card is cloned and someone shoulder-surfs you putting your PIN in. The cloned card is used in ancient cash machines that don't read the chip.
      - Your wallet is stolen shortly after someone watches you enter your PIN. OK, the card in there is only good for a few hours, but there's a lot you can do in that time - and because the thief used your PIN to pay, then as far as the bank is concerned it's your problem because keeping the PIN secure is your responsibility.
      - You get mugged at the cash machine.
    3. Re:Just prove the US system is broken by jackjeff · · Score: 1

      There will always be junkies and thiefs and they do not always use ID theft even in the US where it is possible.

      Chances are that if you suffer an agression, as bad as it is, you will be aware of it immediatly. Some for loosing stuff... whereas ID theft can go one for a while without you noticing it.

      As for magnetic stipe, the only reason there is such a thing in France or Germany is to be compatible with "international" low security crap. Fact is, all cash machines as old as they are (in fact they are not since we changed to Euro a few years ago) will ask for your PIN. So if you card has a stripe, the only way to use it is to go abroad.

      I'm not saying it's perfect, but I feel confotable that ID theft is NOT really possible.

    4. Re:Just prove the US system is broken by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      In the UK you don't always need the Pin.

      The largest supermarket, Tesco, has self-service checkout tills.

      These have no security...

      (a) they read the stripe, not the chip (you swipe the cards down the side of the checkout).
      (b) they don't ask for the pin. at all. Or check a signature.. or do anything to verify whou you are.

      And this is the shop that has something like 60% of the UK grocery market.. so if someone cloned your card they could go for a *long* time before being caught.

    5. Re:Just prove the US system is broken by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Even with the Chip & PIN system, it's still not foolproof:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4980190.stm

    6. Re:Just prove the US system is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Every adult in the US has an ID card. They are normally drivers licenses, but for people who can't or won't drive, non-driving ID cards can be issued.

      ID cards are needed for buying alcohol, tobacco, and video games.

      However, our credit card companies own our government, and don't want you to have to show ID to open a credit card account. The reason why is not because of stranger identity theft, which is relatively rare, but intra-family identity theft, which they want to encourage. You see people are unlikely to report their no good kids or alcoholic mom to the police, and so will be stuck with the charges.

      At least, that's what happened to me. I've had two credit accounts opened by someone I love, and when I checked into what I could do about it, sending the person to jail was all I could do (at which point I could dispute the charges). They didn't need ID or my correct address either.

  42. Hoo boy. by ananthap · · Score: 1

    Poor little addict - and a pock marked one at that.

    But really. The only realistic soultion is to put these guys under a strict regime - like for Kevin Mitnick - and then really watch him.

    End

  43. I once heard by jhylkema · · Score: 1

    1260 divided by the weight of the problem equals the length of the solution.

    1. Re:I once heard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      indeed it was, the Brits changed it later, the last used formula was 1000/weight in pounds = length in feet

  44. Like you guys could do any better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly this guy is a criminal mastermind. Not to mention VALEDICTORIAN of his class at Rikers State Pen. How many of you people were your class' valedictorian. He could probably get a full scholarship at NYU with the big V and that addiction sob story. Hah!

  45. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

    Is that a banana in your pocket, or are you just glad to rob me?

    --
    It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  46. It's not so bad by JavaRob · · Score: 1
    Except that history clearly demonstrates, time and time again, what invariably happens when ordinary citizens are left with only their own morals to keep them honest - and it ain't pretty.
    Time and time again, those citizens form trained police forces to manage the irresponsible/criminal minority. There's usually a period in there where vigilantes manage "justice", but that gets messy.

    It ain't pretty? It doesn't seem so horrible.

    Think about it -- if most people actually enjoyed living in a dog-eat-dog world, that is exactly how we would all be living. Sure, we all have urges to take the shortcut to success by just taking what that other guy already has. But we hate being "that other guy" so much that it pushes things back in a sane direction.
  47. come again? by artifex2004 · · Score: 1
    So what again are the names of those Atheist charities?

    United Way, The Smith Family, Medecin Sans Frontieres, Oxfam, Starlight foundation, etc etc. If you weren't just trolling, have a look here http://www.secularhumanism.org/ for an insight into compassion in secular society.


    Are you sure those are actually atheist, espousing a belief that there is no god, and not just non-religious?

    1. Re:come again? by 955301 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's just it. Atheists don't make a connection between gods and charity, so yes, these are atheist charities in the sense that they are the ones atheists give to. Although I despise United Way as nothing more than another church by the way companies and football players push it - their overhead is ridiculous. Oxfam gets my money.

      The mistake you're making is that you think you have to advertise your charitible giving. That's almost entirely a religious evangelistic behavior, stuffing propoganda in the thanksgiving dinner boxes when giving them out.

      --
      You are checking your backups, aren't you?
    2. Re:come again? by RasputinAXP · · Score: 1

      I think you're making a mistake in that you're confusing atheistic people with secular charities.

    3. Re:come again? by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Atheism isn't a belief in no god, it's a disbelief in god. We don't evangelize any more than a Christian goes about telling everyone that there is no Zeus, no Klingons, no Boogieman. You don't have to evangelize your disbeliefs.

      So any charity that does not espouse a belief in god is an atheist (lit. "no god") charity. They don't need to label themselves as such - they are simply atheist by definition until they pick a God and stick with it.

    4. Re:come again? by Nutria · · Score: 1

      Atheism isn't a belief in no god, it's a disbelief in god. We don't evangelize any more than a Christian goes about telling everyone that there is no Zeus, no Klingons, no Boogieman. You don't have to evangelize your disbeliefs.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O'Hair and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Atheists.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    5. Re:come again? by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Of course, you don't have to not evangelize your disbeliefs either.

    6. Re:come again? by 955301 · · Score: 1

      which charities is it that you think people who don't believe in gods give to? The Salvation Army?

      --
      You are checking your backups, aren't you?
    7. Re:come again? by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1
      There's lots of atheist-friendly charities. I like Bat Conservation International, since I think bats are really cool. I also like SETI, since that might settle certain debates. Most charities run by scientists are atheist-friendly.

      All the atheists I know find something they care about and donate/volunteer accordingly. There's plenty for non-bible-bangers to do to feel good about -- helping other people, animals, the environment, advancing ideas, or advancing science.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  48. ADDICT? by jcr · · Score: 1

    "Addict" is not what you call someone who commits crimes repeatedly. Appropriate terms are "recidivist", "repeat offender", and hopefully some day, "lifer."

    I am bloody tired of people tossing off a word like "addict" to describe someone who's just a goddamned crook.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:ADDICT? by a55mnky · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I concur 100%. This guy is a thief, plain and simple. For him to refer to the temptation to turn 300 dollars into thousands as a relapse is a horrible insult to the folks that have ascended above true addiction.

      --
      Where oh where has my Underdog gone?
    2. Re:ADDICT? by swb · · Score: 1

      Addiction used to mean, more or less, a physical dependence that drove a compulsive consumption of mind-alterting substances. It has long been recognized that addicts are generally powerless to stop their consumption, thus freeing them, more or less, from the moral consequences such behavior often brings. This language has been hijacked to mean any compulsive behavior pattern, unfortunately it hasn't been stripped of notion that these other non-physical addictions shouldn't really carry the freedom from their moral consequences.

      For example, most fat people are fat because they lack self-control and discipline. Call them "food addicts" and instead of just lacking self control and they no longer are responsible for their behavior, and in many ways, they can shift the blame to someone else -- ie, the medical community is at fault for failing to understand and treat obesity.

      This is why we live in a society where everyone is blameless.

  49. ID theft. by frn123 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm from EU. I don't understand how this identity theft works.
    Can somebody explain what's this all about?

    I could post my email address, real name, phone #,bank account # and national id # here,
    why should i be worried if i do?

    1. Re:ID theft. by san · · Score: 1

      AFAIK ID theft also happens in Europe (now that you've posted your information you should really make sure that somebody doesn't try to change the address associated with your bank account). It's more difficult to do in Europe than in the US, for these reasons (I'm not an expert but I've lived in both continents):

      1) Credit reporting agencies have a far greater role in the US than they do in Europe. When you apply for a cell phone plan, or open a checking account at a bank, your credit ratings are checked. Factors such as income or current total credit seem to only be secondary to the 'trust factor' of the credit rating. If you've been behaving well in the past you can get an amount of credit for which the monthly payments would exceeds your income.

      2) Unlike tax IDs in Europe, the American equivalent, the Social Security Number (which realy is a kind of tax ID) is used as a primary key for credit reporting agencies, and little checking is done on the actual identity of the person supplying that number.

      3) The most common ID in the US is the driver's license. Each state in the US has a different driver's license; the average bank clerk from California probably has no idea what a driver's license from Vermont looks like. That's very different from Europe where it's very hard to open a bank account without a passport, driver's license or other ID issued in the country where you're trying to open the account.

      4) Governments in Europe tend to have better records of where people actually live. (in the US that information is very fragmented, with the IRS (the federal tax agency) having some info, and the DMV (driver's license issuers) having other info; that's why there are censuses (censi) in the US). I suspect (don't know for sure) that there are legal circumstances where a collection agency can subpoena that information and actually go after somebody. This, I think, causes EU banks to be looking at different things when they give out a loan, and makes it harder to give a fake address.

      5) The primary customers of credit reporting agencies are financial institutions and other companies, not people. It's not in their interest to prevent credit and ID fraud (actually their role only gets more important as that kind of crime goes up).

      All these things together make people in the US far more vulnerable to ID theft. It's a side effect of the more fragmented government that's so much part of American culture.

    2. Re:ID theft. by frn123 · · Score: 1

      AFAIK ID theft also happens in Europe (now that you've posted your information you should really make sure that somebody doesn't try to change the address associated with your bank account). It's more difficult to do in Europe than in the US, for these reasons (I'm not an expert but I've lived in both continents):

      Here, changing vital things like mailing address requires someone in person with my passport going into the bank and talking to the teller.

      1) Credit reporting agencies have a far greater role in the US than they do in Europe. When you apply for a cell phone plan, or open a checking account at a bank, your credit ratings are checked. Factors such as income or current total credit seem to only be secondary to the 'trust factor' of the credit rating. If you've been behaving well in the past you can get an amount of credit for which the monthly payments would exceeds your income.
      There's no plans here. I just pay monthly as much as i speak. Most of us here don't own or need a credit card either. And how that info changes my credit rating - i would not know.

      2) Unlike tax IDs in Europe, the American equivalent, the Social Security Number (which realy is a kind of tax ID) is used as a primary key for credit reporting agencies, and little checking is done on the actual identity of the person supplying that number.

      The obvious trick of course is to make these ID-s public. So no-one can rely on them for identification. Even our presidents ID is public.


      5) The primary customers of credit reporting agencies are financial institutions and other companies, not people. It's not in their interest to prevent credit and ID fraud (actually their role only gets more important as that kind of crime goes up).

      Thats the point i still don't get. Lets suppose i'm an US-ian, and you know all my ID-s, SSN-s etc etc. How can you abuse that?

    3. Re:ID theft. by lorcha · · Score: 1
      Thats the point i still don't get. Lets suppose i'm an US-ian, and you know all my ID-s, SSN-s etc etc. How can you abuse that?
      US Financial institutions assume that if you know someone's name and SSN, then you are that person. It is a stupid assumption, but it is the assumption that is made on a daily basis.


      If you knew my name and SSN, you could open up a credit card in my name (opening up credit cards is sooooo easy in the US... you can do it online or over the phone) and have the card shipped to your address. Then, you could walk up to an ATM every day and withdraw $500 (or whatever the limit is) in cash. Bonus points if you send fake checks to the credit card company that will eventually bounce, but the CC company credits your account anyhow, so you can keep withdrawing cash. Eventually, the credit card company will come after me for the money because someone called them who knew my name and SSN and asked for a credit card, so it must have been me.

      Financial institutions are starting to wise up to this game and are asking questions from your credit report that they obtain from your SSN. Of course, what's to stop an identity thief from pulling your credit report? After all, he has your name and SSN... he must be you...

      --
      "Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
    4. Re:ID theft. by frn123 · · Score: 1


      If you knew my name and SSN, you could open up a credit card in my name (opening up credit cards is sooooo easy in the US... you can do it online or over the phone) and have the card shipped to your address. Then, you could walk up to an ATM every day and withdraw $500 (or whatever the limit is) in cash. Bonus points if you send fake checks to the credit card company that will eventually bounce, but the CC company credits your account anyhow, so you can keep withdrawing cash. Eventually, the credit card company will come after me for the money because someone called them who knew my name and SSN and asked for a credit card, so it must have been me.


      So the CC company will ask from you their money back. You refuse. They can't sue because they don't have any proof you loaned that money.

  50. I thought the NYT was a serious paper? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    The article appears to have been written by an semi-literate teenager.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  51. Well, what do you expect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Geeze guys, since most of you here are liberal, WTF did you expect? I mean, REALLY?

    Today when someone commits a crime, SOME group will get behind them and talk about how they didn't mean to do it, they were young, they were abused, it was racial (that's a biggie), morally equivalent, profiling, blah blah blah. And you buy it. You buy it everyday. You are not outraged. You do not demand personal responsiblity. Just look back over the new from the last 3 months. It's ok to get physical with a cop if your're black and your a congress person. It's ok to take a huge bribe if your black and your congress person (for God's sake, they have him on tape) It's ok to drown your three kids if you don't know it's wrong. It's ok to ignore immigration laws if you're mexican and you're just trying to find a job. It's ok to keep driving drunk until you've killed at least 3 people. Half the world governments still rape and kill but the human rights groups ACTUALLY still point fingers at the US for...OH MY GOD...putting underwear on a persons head.

    These are just the front pages - I could go on and on and on. Excuses. Everyone has an excuse. No one is responsible for their actions. And it's just fine with most people - it must be because I see no one getting pissed. There are people making excuses for this worthless human being here. Destroy other peoples lives - they should have kept their identity safer.

    We make laws and then think up ways to NOT enforce them. How is that equal protection? What is a hate crime and why is a black/yellow/whatever person's life more valuable than a white person? Think about it - if you are black and kill me (white), you get x number of years. If you are black and I kill you and yell a racial slur while doing it, suddenly I get x times 2...does this make sense? How about killing IS a hate crime. It's assinine to put a class of people above any OTHER class of people at ANYTIME - INCLUDING when dishing out punishment. People claim they want the races equal, but it's not true - each group is looking for a way to put theirs above the others - and good god don't point that out cause then YOU are being racist.

    George Carlin said it best: 'Think about how stupid half the people you meet are...then realize that half of them are stupider than that....'

  52. The Bhagavad Gita ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's actually quite a hard question to answer. We know from our point of view that blowing up a few trains is not a good thing, but from the point of view of the person doing the blowing up why is this so?

    The Bhagavad Gita makes very intersting reading on this. It is the story of Arjuna, a general at the start of a battle, asking God whether or not he is right to fight and kill the enemy or whether he should give up now. He asks 'Surely it is better to surrender, even if it means being killed, then commit the crime of killing all these quite respectable people?'

    From the first couple of chapters you'd assume that in the oppinion of the author Arjuna is right to fight, but then the remaining chapters add a lot more detail. I've not reached the end yet, and am really intrested to know when I do whether or not it answers the question "How can this not be used to justify terrorist atrocities?". You don't hear of many hindu terrorists which is a good sign.

    Even if you filter out the beliefs side - that the Atma (like Soul I suppose) lives on so should not be grieved - you come to some interesting questions.

        The world unfortunately needs soldiers.

        Soldiers must do their job

        How can soldiers do their job free of guilt?

    and from there

        How do you tell the difference between such a soldier, and some terrorist blowing up lots of innocent people?

    I suppose the situation for Arjuna (the soldier in the story) is different. He is in this war and to back out would cause a lot of problems. The terrorists however are not under threat and can back out without such problems. From the chapters I've read so far that is the best solution to the question I've found. I have a suspicion from the synopsis in the translation I'm using that the question isn't actually answered.

    1. Re:The Bhagavad Gita ?? by nasch · · Score: 1
      The terrorists however are not under threat and can back out without such problems.
      Do the terrorists believe that?
  53. Re:They oughta shoot that sonofabitch by cheese-cube · · Score: 0

    Please mod parent Troll -1.

  54. Identity Theft by giafly · · Score: 1

    Re: Say someone came to your home, took your face, robbed you of your fingerprints, and any other identifying marks on your person.

    You mean with a hobby knife or something? Like the Slitheen? I guess it's possible, but identity fraud using copied personal details sounds less messy.

    --
    Reduce, reuse, cycle
  55. Mama says by SlashSquatch · · Score: 1

    "Mama says computers are the devil."

    --
    Autonomous Retard -- Is your camp safe? UnsafeCamp.com
  56. Spiritual??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > ...Statistics say that here in the US, about 90% of the population describes themselves as
    > spiritual. Most religions have some notion of an afterlife of pain or punishment, or
    > karmic balance, or some such - i.e. consequences. And virtually anyplace you go in the
    > world you'll find some sort of organized police force.

    Maybe in the USA. Only in the USA is a person's religion significant. Most European countries, and Canada, Australia, New Zealand, religion plays a very small part in anything from regular life to politics. Comments from a person who had moved from Camada to Texas, interviewed in the Toronto papaer - "you had to pretend to have some religious affiliation just to get the neighbours off your back!" And, oddly enough, the USA has the highest prison incarceration rate, closely followed only by Russia and South Africa.

    I suspect that fairness, honesty, a conscience, or empathy - whatever you want to call it - is something most humans have to a certain degree, because we evolved with it, We're social animals so we also look out for the herd. Social pressure can modify that to some degree.

    I think that the risk of getting caught is usually a significant deterrent to crimes of greed. Those least affected are those who have little to lose - I like to describe them as "doing 'life' on the installment plan."

    The cost of living is high. You would need to steal how much? $50,000 or so a year to live a comfortable lifestyle? $1,000,000 would give you a barely comfortable lifetime pension? How many years can you get away with that volume in today's society? And of course, if you're not stealing money, the problem is fencing it...

    1. Re:Spiritual??? by rahrens · · Score: 1

      "Only in the USA is a person's religion significant."

      I beg to differ - look at Northern Ireland, the Balkan States, etc. One's religion in those States makes a great deal of difference! It can even get you killed! My wife is German, and even though there are just two religions that most Germans belong to (Catholic or Evangalish {sp}), there are still hard feelings between the two sides - even tho the Hundred Years war was fought centuries ago. Memories in Europe are long, and hard feelings over religious disagreements run deep! Look at England just two hundred years ago, Catholics and others that were not Anglican were terribly set upon. You cannot tell me that those feelings have dissapated in that short period of time.

      --
      "Money is truthful. If a man speaks of his honor, make him pay cash." Notebooks of Lazarus Long, Robert A. Heinlein
  57. WTF is an ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .... "identity theft addict?"

    What's next: a bank-robbery addict, a rape addict, a murder addict?

    For pete's sake, mealy-mouthed media, call it for what it is a crime that ruins the life of its victims.

  58. Portrait of an Identity Thief by boot1973 · · Score: 1

    It looks just like me!!!

  59. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1
    People who use plastic guns or a banana in the pocket are armed robbers.


    A quick bit of advice for those "armed" robbers. If you commit your robberies on a hot summer day, your pocket will get really messy! Especially if your "gun" wasn't green when you got it from the supermarket.
    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  60. criminals and fools go sadly together. by PermanentMarker · · Score: 1

    When one watches a magic show it's easy to see; people pay money to get fooled. Apperently people like to be fooled a bit (people don't seu a magic artist). I think lot's of people behave like a mass, in way cows follow a leader.

    And that's quite dangerous, there should be a constant allert and investigation of public resources who use the internet. For example how safe is money transfer over the internet?. You think it's safe, as your sure inteligence serivices never cracked a root certificate from for example verisign? (and if they do this who else might do that)

    Perhaps it's time to create a seccond internet, one which is not anonymous but registrated by owner by IP (using IP6) it would have some impact sure, but how lang can the internet be a wild west place? Tough good thoughts should be given to privacy, a goverment tracing your data isn't also what people want. Today we pay for the internet, so the current internet is in a way our freedom place and no one realy owns it.

    This seccond internet could be funded by banks and various bussiness, who want to asure the creditability of their secured connections with you the consumer. Perhaps more seperated nets will become a reality as :
    - who want's his six year old kid to be able to watch the current pornbased-internet?
    - Perhaps goverments should go on their own on the internet (to protect your privacy).
    - Perhaps insurance companies should have their own net toe (to protect your privacy).


    Well it's hard to imagine that the internet will noy evolve in about a 50 years to deal with these kind of wild west problems. As for sure we will see quantum computer in this time frame (being able to crack verisign keys in a few secconds...)

    --
    I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
  61. simple solution by sinack69 · · Score: 1

    Too many people put give their Credit Cards numbers out to anybody. It seems like these fly-by-night online shops are a breeding ground for identity theft. They should ask you, "Would you like us to keep your credit card in our vulnerable database in plain-text, so that the next time you return, we'll have it on file?". [x] nail here for new monitor!

    --
    http://www.thirdrake.com - Best Webcomic of all time.
  62. spammer? by stoove · · Score: 1

    so basically this guy is one of those persons that send me the "please reactivate your account" spam mails?

  63. he's one of the first? by NynexNinja · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There was an interesting quote:
    "Shiva Sharma was probably one of the first, and he was certainly one of the first to get caught," said Diane M. Peress, a former Queens County prosecutor who handled all three of Mr. Sharma's cases and who is now the chief of economic crimes with the Nassau County district attorney's office.
    This guy is from New York. What about New York's Masters Of Deception (MOD) group in the 1980's? I would say they were probably one of the first. Its pretty naive to make such statements that in 2006, this guy is "one of the first". He is 22 years old. I know guys that are in their late 30's early 40's that were doing computer based identity theft back in their teens and early 20's.
    1. Re:he's one of the first? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      The answer is in the quote. He was one of the first to get caught, so as far as the authorities are concerned, he's one of the first.

      I swear, we're lucky crooks like this guy are so dumb. If they were any smarter the cops and prosecutors wouldn't stand a chance.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    2. Re:he's one of the first? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, some members of MoD also spent time in jail. I recommend this book (I have read it): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060170301/104-68 88419-6258359?v=glance&n=283155

      What the quote probably means is that he was one of the modern generation of fraudsters who specifically focused on the type of stuff known as "identity theft" instead of the older free phone calls, self-generated CC numbers crowd.

  64. biology and morality by Shirlockc · · Score: 1

    The New Scientist has an article http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9469-dodging -punishment-may-be-its-own-reward.html about how in some who have brain damage, getting away with a crime is as good as being rewarded for good behavior. This could be part of the "addiction".

  65. Re:Nothing a bullet to the forehead wouldn't fix by Don853 · · Score: 1

    This doesn't necessarily completely contradict the GP's point. They can still be charged with armed robbery, but it is often a mitigating factor when it comes to sentencing, and an unarmed 'armed robber' may get a sentence as light as a year or two when parole is said and done, or less if it's a first time offense.

  66. Most common tricks? by mlewan · · Score: 1

    Instead of (or at least in addition to) writing about one phisher, it would be interesting to know what the odds are for identity thefts. Are almost all cases based on "reactivate your account" mails? How often are working keyboard sniffers installed and used? Does anyone really have to worry about remote surveillance of screens through windows and across streets, or is it just a theoretical thought experiment, which never is used?

  67. It's still not a disorder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you'll find that this situation affects a goodly portion of the human race at various given times. You also counter your own point, as in the situation described - despite racing adrenalin etc - you were able to counter and suppress your irrational feelings.

    Humans will at some times be subject to strong, irrational feelings, but the point is that losing control of them is not justified by defining them as "illness." If one feels a strong sexual urge when seeing a woman in a tight dress, does that mean that one can flout responsibility and ravish her?

    I know and have known quite a few people who could be described as having this so-called IED, hell I can myself think of many occasions where my temper has flared way to hot and way to sudden for a warranted occasion. However, the point is that the "mental illness" tag is being used as a "get out of jail free card." People are no longer held responsible for their actions.

    There are mitigating circumstances to any situation, but simply stating that you "get mad easily" is not a reason enough for destructive behavior. In knowing you have such a problem, you should also take steps to control said problem, and not flout responsibility be declaring that you are not responsible for your actions due to poor mental health. If you have a temper problem, a shrink may be a medically valid solution, that I don't argue, but it doesn't mean that with or without one this so-called IED is an excuse for the behavior it is being used to cover.

    1. Re:It's still not a disorder by QuantumFTL · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find that this situation affects a goodly portion of the human race at various given times. You also counter your own point, as in the situation described - despite racing adrenalin etc - you were able to counter and suppress your irrational feelings.

      The point of the story was that I was scared later on, remembering that if it were any stronger, I would not have been able to suppress it. Also, being the ever-loving fuck out of someone who's messing with you, in stone age times, at least, was an excellent tactic for discouraging people from messing with you.

      Humans will at some times be subject to strong, irrational feelings, but the point is that losing control of them is not justified by defining them as "illness." If one feels a strong sexual urge when seeing a woman in a tight dress, does that mean that one can flout responsibility and ravish her?

      When people are put under the influence of mind altering chemicals, they do exactly that type of thing. If someone injected you with a ton of cocaine (without you asking) do you think you should be held responsible for what happened afterwards? These kinds of internal chemical triggers are no different than that - you didn't ask for them, they are just there.

      I know and have known quite a few people who could be described as having this so-called IED, hell I can myself think of many occasions where my temper has flared way to hot and way to sudden for a warranted occasion. However, the point is that the "mental illness" tag is being used as a "get out of jail free card." People are no longer held responsible for their actions.

      Well if you go too far with the whole mental illness thing, yes that's a problem. I've known many people with bona-fide mental issues and while they are wonderful people, it has a crippling impact on their life. They are intelligent and successful, but not happy and often don't fit in socially because of it. One of my closest friends is obsessive compulsive, for instance, how is someone supposed to take responsibility for that. He didn't do anything (that we know of) to cause it, and doesnt' want to be that way, but there he is.

      There are mitigating circumstances to any situation, but simply stating that you "get mad easily" is not a reason enough for destructive behavior. In knowing you have such a problem, you should also take steps to control said problem, and not flout responsibility be declaring that you are not responsible for your actions due to poor mental health. If you have a temper problem, a shrink may be a medically valid solution, that I don't argue, but it doesn't mean that with or without one this so-called IED is an excuse for the behavior it is being used to cover.

      I think the problem with this discussion is that people like you trivialize the internal processes going on in these people. There's a difference between being simply angry "Wtf why did you eat my sandwich while I was gone" and being totally enraged "you just threatened my life and I'm going to defend myself, even if it means killing you". There's a complete spectrum there, and your choice of language shows that you are not appreciating this distinction. As my post said, who knows who actually has this IED thing, but I do know that rage can be a problem for some people, not because they dont' care, but because it's a natural part of being human that some people get too much of, and because our society expects everyone (no matter how different) to follow the same fucking rules.

  68. "The Sociapth Next Door" by peter303 · · Score: 1

    This recent book claims about 4% of the population has absolutely no concern or empathy for anyone else and comprises a large fraction of criminals.
    Even if just some of them are smart enough to scam people, thats enough to cause
    significant crime.

  69. To point out the obvious by jhylkema · · Score: 1

    The only people who are really hurt by this are the huge corporations. Sure, the individual consumer victims face a great deal of aggravation, but they get their money back in the end. The banks, though, end up eating it. For all of their crowing about the losses, it probably amounts to about what the CEO routinely spends on lunch and nose candy.

    1. Re:To point out the obvious by toddestan · · Score: 1

      You think the banks pay for this kind of fraund? Hell no. They just pass it back onto the merchants, who end up most of the time stuck without the item(s) and without the cash they should of gotten for it. Sure, the large corporations just brush it off, but it can sting pretty hard for the little guy.

  70. Please give this pour soul corrective treatment by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 1

    A good flogging, followed by time in the public stocks-- say, a week or two.

    Per incident.

    Oddly enough, that's the same punsihment I'd recommend for the purely criminal activity of the same sort.

  71. "Soft Spoken" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those words appear everywhere. In so many computer press articles people are described as "Soft Spoken"

    Apart from filler noise - what does this mean?

  72. put up or shut up ;) by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    I'm from EU. I don't understand how this identity theft works. [...]

    I could post my email address, real name, phone #,bank account # and national id # here, why should i be worried if i do?

    So, just out of curiousity, why don't you go ahead and do it?

    1. Re:put up or shut up ;) by frn123 · · Score: 1

      Endel Muna
      frn@imelaps.ee
      +372 5103301 ( don't call me at US daylight hours please :)
      37807020340 (id)
      221014345996 (Hansabank checking(?) account)

      My question stands. Why should i be worried? Really?
      The worst you can probably do with this info is
      temporarily suspend my ATM card.. That kind of
      info is "almost" public in my country and there
      seems to be little or no problems with it.

    2. Re:put up or shut up ;) by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Hey, I'm impressed (assuming that it's accurate). I guess I just have a higher paranoia threshhold.

  73. The government makes criminals of us all by vinn01 · · Score: 1

    Spoken like a true patriot. It's hard to love, support, and defend one's country in these times.

    What patriot would not read this and weep: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Patriot_Act

    Funny? I wish the moderators would stop sniffing glue.

  74. Ruin your life for $20 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had my identity stolen way back in 2001, and since then I spend a week of effort, not to mention some cash, to try to fix the problem. I have reduced the fake debt from 100,000+ to about 20k. However, both the FBI, local police here in solano county, california, police in florida and georgia, and the DMV will do nothing about it even though there were six figures of damages to these companies that were fooled. In the 90's they busted a DMV here for providing fake (but real) licenses for $20. With all the talk of security, and the supposed need to close the borders to protect us, why won't the authorities do anything? Are they trying to support the case for national identities? After my repeated attempt to get them to prosecute this guy so I can clear the remaining credit, all that happened was that my entire life was put under scrutiny and I was then charged with two obviously fake charges for attempting to fix my phone line in a storm (since dropped). I've been fighting the fact that I need to pay a lawyer at least $1000 to remove the remaining charges... even if you are careful with your personal info this can happen to you just because of one corrupt offical that has access to your records! The worst part is I can't get health insurance because they were medical bills, and I have to move home instead of living off of credit cards between jobs like everyone else.

  75. ID theft deterant by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

    It is so easy to avoid getting pownd by id bandits. Don't pay your student loans for 2 years. Nobody on earth will give you a penny of credit. Problem solved.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  76. Perhaps a better word... by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1
    And he deployed the now-common rods and reels of data theft -- e-mail solicitations and phony Web sites -- that fleece the unwitting.
    Perhaps a better word: witless?
  77. Spare me the euphemisms by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    Identity Theft Addict

    What is this? It makes him sound like he's some kind of a victim in all of this, that he can't help helping himself to other people's money because he has a psychological dependence upon our dough. So, what, what should sympathize with this person while he's transferring our money out of the country? Political correctness will be the death of us all.

    I'm sorry, but he's a goddamn criminal, that's what he is. Call him whatever you want but he's still a felon. To paraphrase Shakespeare, "A pile of Bantha poo-doo by any other name would smell as bad."

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  78. If only it were so simple... by lorcha · · Score: 1
    So the CC company will ask from you their money back. You refuse. They can't sue because they don't have any proof you loaned that money.
    It's not quite so simple.


    First of all, they could sue me for the money. They would certainly lose their suit, but it would cost me money to defend.

    But more importantly, and what the credit card company would do in practice, is report "my" debt (really the id thief's debt) to the three credit reporting agencies. These agencies are private companies and, as such, can't force me to pay anyone anything. However, in practice, I could not get a mortgage, a car loan, a credit card, etc., if it shows up on my credit report that I owe some credit card company money. So while I'm not strictly required to pay a debt just because it appears on my credit report, it's a real financial problem for me if that unpaid collection item appears on my credit report.

    Unfortunately, getting fraudulent activity removed from your credit report is a royal pain. When my identity was stolen a few years ago, I had only two fraudulent items appear on my report. It took about 30-40 hours of my time over a period of 6 months in order to get it resolved. What if I needed to move during that 6 months and take out a mortgage? I'd have been out of luck.

    Also, it was a pain because up until the moment the company who loaned money to the id thief admitted that they screwed up, they treated me like I was the one who just didn't want to pay my debts. These companies were extremely rude and unhelpful to me, and tried to make it as difficult and slow a process as possible to "prove my innocence".

    If someone asked me to fix the situation, I would do the following:

    1. Require that in order to report a debt on someone's credit report, one must first obtain a judgment in a court of law.
    2. Publish a list of every American and his/her SSN. That way, SSNs can no longer be considered secret, and companies will have to find some other way for their customers to prove their identities.
    --
    "Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
    1. Re:If only it were so simple... by frn123 · · Score: 1

      Ok, i'm starting to see where to problem lies. Seems thats this kind of identity theft seems to be somewhat connected to USA businesspractices and case law and it's possibly no problem whatsoever in my locality.

      But hypothetically, i've gathered that there is one thing they've got right in your system and thats small claims court.
      Can't you "easily,safely and cheaply " sue those credit rating corps for slander (libel? never understood the diff.) for publishing false information about you?