Lens That Writes on Both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray

morpheus83 writes "Ricoh claims they have developed an optical component that reads and writes all disk formats -- Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, as well as DVD and CD -- with one pickup and one objective lens. The component is a 3.5-mm diameter, 1-mm thick round diffraction plate with minute concentric groves on both sides which function as a diffraction grating. Based on disc information the drive can identify which format disk is loaded, Ricoh's optical diffraction component adjusts the laser beam with its diffraction grating for each format and passes it to the objective lens."

Comments

well, now that that's settled

[yagu]

Phew! I thought there'd be no solution to the format wars.

Oh wait, there's still:

• cable wars (HDMI, component)
• DRM wars (broadcast flag and more)
• HD wars (DLP, LCD, Plasma, i vs p, etc.)
• provider wars (comcast, DISH, DirectTV)
• DVR wars (comcast (ick), DISH (ick), DirectTV (ick), TIVO (yea!))
• did I mention DRM wars? (it's worth mentioning more than once)
• compression wars (have you looked closely at the quality of a comcast HD broadcast?, and/or their OnDemand?)
• price wars. (players, recorders (if you get permission to record), media (if you get permission to play))

But, at least now we've gotten that pesky dual-compatible use-a-single-object-lens issue out of the way. Now I can tell all my friends and family the hurdle has been cleared and to let the floodgates of new consumers open.

Not.

I'm going out for a bicycle ride.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[October_30th]

I don't see why a consumer should care about the items you listed. For instance, you seem to place a specific emphasis on DRM, but the fact is that it won't affect most consumers who just want to be able to watch a movie on their dedicated, licensed device.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[BlowChunx]

...and when that dedicated licensed device dies or breaks? Then what?

Most consumers will get bit by DRM, but only after the fact when it is too late.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Bing Tsher E]

Truth is, the loudest opponents of DRM tend to feel they are spokespeople for 'the consumer,' who are the regular ordinary 'proles' in the world. And said 'proles' will always need a 'vanguard' to champion and protect their interests. As identified and defined by said 'vanguard,' of course.

Same as it ever was.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[bmo]

"I'm going out for a bicycle ride."

Holy crap, one format war to another!

The following will generate a flamewar in rec.bicycles.tech that go on for months:

Shimano or Campagnolo?
What about mechanical vs hydraulic disc brakes?
Caliper, Cantilever, Centerpull, Coaster, disc, Double pivot, Drum, Roller, Rollercam, Roller lever, Sidepull, Single pivot, Spoon brakes?
Low spoke count wheels vs 32 or 36 count?
Tubular or Clincher tires? What about Tufo?
Octalink or square taper spindle?
British, Italian, French, Swiss, or Raleigh threading?
130 vs 110 mm BHC?
Hook or no hook rims?
Does a wheel hang by its spokes or stand on its spokes?
Disc wheels or spoked wheels?
Hard Anodizing or plain? Does hard anodizing weaken aluminum?

And that's just to start.

--
BMO

Re:well, now that that's settled

[October_30th]

They buy another one - just like they'd do every few years anyway.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[ScrewMaster]

Perhaps. But in this case, the vanguard (or rather, "guardians of the truth") happen to be correct. We're all getting the shaft, and it doesn't matter whether the shaft is made of wood or soft rubber, it's still a shaft.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[ivan256]

compression wars (have you looked closely at the quality of a comcast HD broadcast?, and/or their OnDemand?)

Yeah, but I couldn't tell if those big blocks on the screen were compression artifacts, or vomit from my reaction to the picture quality. ;)

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

You vomit squares? Have you seen a doctor about this?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[AnyoneEB]

I think the point is what happens if it breaks in 20-30 years or so (or sooner?) when the format is no longer supported (but the discs are still protected by copyright/DMCA)?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[MisaDaBinksX4evah]

cable wars (HDMI, component)

Uh, if I were component in that matchup, I'd be pretty worried.

Now, HDMI v. DVI might be a good fight...

Re:well, now that that's settled

[October_30th]

The same answer applies. Think vinyl vs. CD.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[AnyoneEB]

Your vomit looks like square blocks lined up to a grid? You should probably talk to a doctor about that. ;)

Re:well, now that that's settled

[joe 155]

I hate to respond like marx did when he gave a speech on free trade here but I fear it is the only option... we should support DRM, make sure that it becomes as intrusive as possible, make sure that at every turn every legitimate use of people's own products becomes difficult and when something like the Sony Rootkit happens (which it will, again and again...) then we seize on it and show the world that this makes the situation worse for everyone.... Appart from the people who pirate things and have the encryption handily broken *shifty eyes*

I guess that means we need to stop the EFF protesting for a little while.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Quarters]

You're the only person I've ever heard refer to the different types of TV display technologies available as a "format war". There's no war going on there. Each tech has its place and its pricepoint. It's called "choice".

Oh...wait...you were just trying to pad your list to make your post seem relevant. My mistake.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

No because, worse comes to worse, I can create a new vinyl player using commonly available instructions(out of the realm of possibility for most people, but not specialized shops). With the DMCA, et al., instructions for decrypting the DRM formats would be illegal, making it impossible for me(or anyone else for that matter) to produce machines capable of reading DRM'd media. Couple that with extremely long-lasting copyright terms, and it becomes difficult if not impossible to find/be able to play music from lesser known bands 30, 50 or 100 years down the line.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[October_30th]

Couple that with extremely long-lasting copyright terms, and it becomes difficult if not impossible to find/be able to play music from lesser known bands 30, 50 or 100 years down the line.

And you should be able to do that because...?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[John Miles]

And you should be able to do that because...?

Because copyright law in the US is constitutional only insofar as a work is protected for a "limited time." DRM violates the limited-time clause, so the DMCA and any other DRM-promoting legislation is prima facie unconstitutional.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Wordsmith]

In a free society, we're only barred from doing the things we -shouldn't be able to do, rather than only let do the things we -should- be able to.

We should be able to take media, aquired legitimately, and come up with our own means of accessing it. We transfered from records to CDs - but it's still perfectly legal to make your own record player, which you might want to do if no one will sell you one. It'll be a real shame if we transfer away from some DRM-encumbered format and can no longer access legitimately aquired media from the time when that format was in popular use, because the content providers (if they're still around) are no longer interested in making players.

Usage licenses are nonsense and nonintuitive. Ford doesn't get to tell me whether I can tinker with my car's engine or what hours of the day I can drive the car; Maytag doesn't get to tell me I can't replace a broken part with one I've reverse-engineered; Sony (or whomever) shouldn't get to tell me I can't play there CDs (or whatever) in anything other than an authorized player. They're free to apply the DRM and make it difficult for me, but I'd better be free to try and crack it.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Firehed]

• cable wars (HDMI, component)
• DRM wars (broadcast flag and more)
• HD wars (DLP, LCD, Plasma, i vs p, etc.)
• provider wars (comcast, DISH, DirectTV)
• DVR wars (comcast (ick), DISH (ick), DirectTV (ick), TIVO (yea!))
• did I mention DRM wars? (it's worth mentioning more than once)
• compression wars (have you looked closely at the quality of a comcast HD broadcast?, and/or their OnDemand?)
• price wars. (players, recorders (if you get permission to record), media (if you get permission to play))

You're either comparing apples and oranges or standard competition on really all of these.

• cable wars (digital, analog)
• DRM wars (they're all just added to each other, not which one's the best)
• HD wars (each has its own pros and cons)
• provider wars (market competition)
• DVR wars (market competition)
• did I mention DRM wars? (did I mention they're stacked, not competing?)
• compression wars (again, tradeoffs, though all avoid fixing the actual problem)
• price wars (you're complaining that competition lowers prices?!)

To be fair, the so-called DRM war is a valid point, just not with the examples you used. It's more of an iTunes M4P versus PlaysForSure protected WMA thing. DVDs have macrovision, CSS, region coding and more, not one or the other, and the HD formats are or will be the same way. Likewise for cable wars, but it would be HDMI vs DVI vs that new HDMI-esque thing for computers that doesn't have the crazy licensing fee. Aside from that, it's either two separate entities or market competiton (which is a good thing, unless you LIKE monopolies).

Now back to cleaning out my room.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[r3m0t]

Most of these are hardly "wars". Just consumer choice.

If you buy an LCD, it won't become obsolete when Plasma "wins the war" (wtf?)

Similarly for most of those items. My Toshiba PVR will still be useful if TiVo wins some sort of war.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[icebrain]

It's just like the "format wars" in general aviation:

High wing vs. low wing
Trigear vs. taildragger
Production vs. homebuilt
Pattern entries (45 vs. overhead vs. extended downwind vs....)
Towered vs. non-towered fields

and so on...

Re:well, now that that's settled

[MyLongNickName]

I hate to respond like marx did when he gave a speech on free trade here but I fear it is the only option... we should support DRM, make sure that it becomes as intrusive as possible, make sure that at every turn every legitimate use of people's own products becomes difficult and when something like the Sony Rootkit happens (which it will, again and again...) then we seize on it and show the world that this makes the situation worse for everyone...

Yes! Then our privacy and openness ideologies would be just as successful as Marxism is right now! It is so on the Move in The U.S., Europe and China! The free trade thing has just totally been repudiated.

Thank you for bringing this option to our attention!

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Bad D.N.A.]

make sure that it becomes as intrusive as possible, make sure that at every turn every legitimate use of people's own products becomes difficult and when something like the Sony Rootkit happens (which it will, again and again...) then we seize on it and show the world that this makes the situation worse for everyone.

Interesting idea.

Take it up the ass as a method of showing that taking it up the ass is bad.

You first.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Citizen of Earth]

• HD wars (DLP, LCD, Plasma, i vs p, etc.)
• provider wars (comcast, DISH, DirectTV)
• DVR wars (comcast (ick), DISH (ick), DirectTV (ick), TIVO (yea!))

On these three, you seem to be saying that non-competition is good for consumers.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

Component has most of the installed base, so she knows she'll be around for a while.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[October_30th]

Yeah. I know where you come from and I used to think like you.

Then I realized that none of it is worth fighting for. Yeah, more strict copyright laws might be a shame, nonintuitive and cumbersome, but it's really not the end of the world. It's not important. Not even if I can't lend a book to a friend anymore as in Stallman's dystopia.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[KDR_11k]

Well, can you point out any place where unrestricted free trade exists?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[drac0n1z]

220V or 110V

Re:well, now that that's settled

[joto]

I'm sorry, but if you can't see the value of historical records, you've just proven that you are either completely clueless, or a troll.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Jester998]

The voltage is irrelevant.

It's the amperage that helps you kill users when they ask you one too many times how to reset a view filter in Outlook. :p

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Dachannien]

Copyright's sole purpose is to "promote science and the useful arts", as defined by the US Constitution. If music, movies, and other art become lost in the abandonment void between public domain and copyrighted works, due to poor record-keeping or estate heirs unwilling to re-release particular works in a format playable on currently available devices, that has the opposite effect from what the Constitution demands.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[joto]

Well, can you point out any place where something even remotely similar to communism exists? A place where people actually "give according to their abilities, and receive according to their needs", at least in principle?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[gabebear]

Someone was telling me this the other day; the part of the constitution that authorizes copyrights and patents goes: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

Clinton's DMCA is already pretty shot to hell, but this argument may be enough to get it off the books although I doubt the supreme court will be hearing a case based around this anytime soon though. One thing this case has going for it is that a crappy Democrat signed it into law and now there are several crappy Republican appointed Supreme Court Judges are in place to repeal it.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[dreamlax]

HDMI cables can also take [I think] 8 channels of audio, as well as a high resolution digital video signal in a single cable. Component, requiring three cables, only takes video (although most component cables come joined together anyway).

It makes much more sense to have a single cable carrying digital data from a digital source to end up in a digital destination, leaving the analogue conversion (if there is any) at the final step, than to have three seperate cables which can only take a video signal.

My ideal setup would have a receiver with HDMI input, my DVD player (or whatever I end up with to play movies) connected to that via HDMI, and my monitor connected to my receiver using DVI (or HDMI). Two cables (of course excluding speaker wire) versus the 7 (2 x component plus digital audio) required otherwise.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Traiklin]

so you are saying you are all for loss of information?

you said it yourself that it's not the end of the world and not important if you can't lend a book to someone, so what happens when that day comes? the book is lisenced to only you and it requires your finger print to even open it, someone else tries to read it and nothing happens other then "Unauthorized user" shows across the cover. you open it for them but as soon as you hand it to someone else it closes on them and displays the same error message.

That's the route these companies want to go with DRM, so if this isn't worth fighting for where you spend your earned money on something that you can't even lend to a friend anymore, then why bother fighting for privacy rights? Why raise a big stink over what the US government is doing? it's not worth fighting for, it's not the end of the world, it's not important since we will forget about in in a couple of months anyways right?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Marcos Eliziario]

I strongly agree with it. Over the last 15 years or so I've been buying CDs. Last year I've bought my first iPod that was robbed (yes, I live in Rio de Janeiro, Brasil) and last month a new 60GB iPOd. Now, imagine the trouble I would have ripping my huge CD collection to my IPod if audio cds were designed with the same DRM "features" that are being designed for Bluray and HD? If CDs had the same DRM sh***T I would be left with tons of music in my CDs, legally bought, that I could not listen to on my portable device. Would that be fair? I never, ever buy music from iTunes (And I can't from Brasil), and all my music is ripped from my CDs or CDs from my friends (and this also qualifies as fair use). So DRM on audio CDs would have deprived innovative companies from a very valuable market, and also would deprive the consumer (me) to fully exert my rights upon things I paid for.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[zwizzlemydizzle]

Errr... except of course for the few "crappy" Republican politicians such as the infamous Orrin "If you download from the internet copyright holders should be able to destroy your computer equipment" Hatch, and the many others that pander to the big dollars of the entertainment industry, just as the Dems did.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[MojoStan]

What a depressingly entertaining comment. In the recent past, choosing a television (CRT) and video player (VCR or DVD) used to be so simple. At worst, I only needed to know about one new technology at a time (and only for a short time before they became standard): 2-head VCR vs 4-head, RF connector vs composite vs S-video, regular DVD player vs progressive scan.

Now I need to choose between competing (not just new) standards, one of which might become obsolete (HD DVD vs Blu Ray), or delay my purchase until the next must-have technology arrives (next-gen DRM'd digital inputs/outputs, 1080p HD DVD, SED televisions). The high cost of these new toys make these decisions even more difficult.

cable wars (HDMI, component)

Digital vs analog cables has pretty much been settled, but choosing a digital connection is needlessly complicated when buying a new TV, video player, gaming console, computer monitor, or video card. DVI (single or dual-link), HDMI (wait for version 1.3?), UDI, integrated HDCP (fuck ATI for their "HDCP ready" video cards).

DRM wars (broadcast flag and more)

Don't forget CableCARD and the not-yet-here but must-have CableCARD version 2.0. Also, home-built "media center" PCs won't be "allowed" to integrate a CableCARD reader.

HD wars (DLP, LCD, Plasma, i vs p, etc.)

With all of the drawbacks and trade-offs of each HD television technology, choosing or recommending a new digital TV type is hell. Burned-in images, rainbow effect, screen-door effect, viewing angles, fading brightness, lamp replacement costs, size/cost ratio, 720p/1080i/1080p...

provider wars (comcast, DISH, DirectTV)

Also, should broadband/phone/television providor "bundles" influence your choice?

DVR wars (comcast (ick), DISH (ick), DirectTV (ick), TIVO (yea!))

Screw 'em. I'm building my own PVR/media center PC. It sucks that I won't be allowed to integrate a CableCARD reader.

You're right. Even if this new lens "solves" the HD DVD/Blu Ray problem (licensing issues might prevent this), there's a lot of other crap to deal with when buying a new television or anything that connects to it.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

YHBT. HAND.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[suffe]

Not so. After the copyright runs out you are free to mount your hand held cam in front of the TV and film away.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

Pussy

Asshole

Mouth

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Gnavpot]

Not so. After the copyright runs out you are free to mount your hand held cam in front of the TV and film away.

So you still have a working Blu-ray player? You are lucky. My player died in 2053 and since the last Blu-ray compatible player was pulled from the market in 2042, I don't think I will ever be able to find a replacement.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Edzor]

you forgot the war on terrorism.

  9/11 changed this country...changed it.....in ways which we cant possibly imagine or even fathem. just look around, look at your work collegaues, your neighbours and yes even your family. then ask yourself can i trust these people? can really trust them?

  the format wars are a mear distraction. possibly a cleaver ploy by the terrorists to lull hard working familes all around this great land of ours into a confusion then they will use that weakness to attack us!
or not.

just be afraid.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[beaverfever]

Format war is hell.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[FLEB]

Get with the times. It's "intellectual property" now. Copyright is less and less seen as a granted right, and more as a security for the intellectual property "owned" by creators. The rulings on the Mickey Mouse Preservation Act (Congress saying "forever minus a day" is still a "limited term") have pretty much shot up the ability to constitutionally argue against copyright legislation.

That portion (and the Commerce Clause... did you read the ruling regarding medical marijuana in California a while back? Wha'?!?) have gotten so beaten, stretched, and diluted that Congress can interpret any ol' way that suits them, and the Court just caves at the most obtuse applications.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I actually dont care, so YHBT, YHL, and dont HAND.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what's happening in Argentina, see http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/147 /54/

Re:well, now that that's settled

[grolschie]

While we are off topic... Bartering != communism. How to the elderly, disabled or infirmed fare under this barter system if they have no means with which to barter?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[cow ninja]

Caliper, Cantilever, Centerpull, Coaster, disc, Double pivot, Drum, Roller, Rollercam, Roller lever, Sidepull, Single pivot, Spoon brakes?

Wow... in alphabetical order. That is a little eerie.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[cyber-dragon.net]

How about this scenario. I buy a CD (relatively same price as an album due to RIAA price fixing but that is a separate issue) and listen to it in my car and on my stereo. Then decide I like it enough to rip it to mp3s. This is legal and I can now put those mp3s on any device I want including new cell phones etc and continue to listen to MY music that I PURCHASED in any way -I- CHOOSE using whatever program -I- choose on whatever OS I choose. If my hard drive dies it is fine I just re-rip the CD no problem. All of these I am allowed to do.

Now... joe or jane consumer buys a DRMed album from anyone offering them. They can play it using the specific DRM player, on an OS that supports this player or MAYBE on a device that specifically supports THAT DRM and no other. What choice is there? What rights do they have to back up the music, play it in my car etc? They have none. No choice in how they use the music they "purchased." Now XYZ company goes out of business and they simply cannot listen to their music at all. No one ever explained to the consumer they were not buying the music simply renting it from the company.

See the difference? That is why DRM = bad for consumer

Re:well, now that that's settled

[lonasindi]

you raise an interesting point. If, perhaps, the primary complaint against DRM is the bricking of current media at some indeterminate point in the future, would a possible solution simply be to invalidate the DMCA once a particular DRM scheme is no longer in active use?

I don't suppose the media companies would go for that though.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

someone mod this guy -1 for being an unctuous asshole.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

Marcos,

That's what you get for being dumb enough to live in Brazil.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[joto]

I have no idea why you are talking about bartering. Under communism, "the elderly, disabled or infirmed" will "receive according to their needs", just like everybody else. And since they have no abilities of any use to anyone, they will also "give according to their abilities".

And that's why communism will never succeed. I "need" only food, water, clothing, shelter, and access to medical treatment if I ever get sick. But there's just no way in hell that's going to motivate me to "give according to my ability". In that case, I need a bit of money as well (or perhaps a slave-driver with a whip).

(If you want to hang on to the bartering idea, replace money with "hours" or whatever they use to evade taxes (don't tell me that anyone is capable of creating a real bartering culture these days, the money meme has been to deeply embedded into our culture for the last 1000 years, and so "bartering" is just a way to avoid paying taxes)).

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, you can, but the average consumer doesn't give a fuck and will happily re-buy their entire collection. Technically or legally feasible or not, they really don't care about it one way or another.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Danga]

I think he got it from the following link at thats why it is in alphabetical order: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#brake

Re:well, now that that's settled

[shicaca]

Maytag doesn't get to tell me I can't replace a broken part with one I've reverse-engineered

... Unless you're Lexmark, and then you can start suing people for buying ink cartridges that are *much* cheaper and last longer than their POS inks. ... THEN it's ok.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[skiflyer]

Yeah but it's a little different with players of any sort.

With a bike you more or less bought the bike for the purpose it will always satisfy... obviously if you're hard core you might modify things slightly, and the type of joint that holds the wheel in might be an issue (or whatever the reasonable analogy is)... but with the player you're laying out significant money for a device which allows you to lay out more money later for conflict.

But if the format dies after you've bought say two movies, you've now laid out say $1100 (in the case of blu-ray) to watch two movies. Or if you've bought 100 movies you've laid out $5,000 in media, and if your player dies and the format dies out you can no longer watch any of that media.

You snap the 36 spoke tire on the bike and need to replace it you can go ahead and put in a new 44 count if the 36 is no longer available because the socket's the same... basically the important standards remain the same.

Whatever, I'm just stating the obvious, but I think I saw your point and saw that you missed the real crux of why the format wars really matter.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucking idiot. The post has nothing to do with Communism other than mentioning as a tangent that Marx suggested the technique of making an undesired law so oppressive that it has to be repealed. I wish smart bombs meant something totally different and were falling on America, but then I suppose someone has to vote Republican.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[fyoder]

Because copyright law in the US is constitutional only insofar as a work is protected for a "limited time."

10,000 years is a limited time. They wouldn't extend it that much all at once, just a bit every time it looks like Mickey Mouse is going to fall into the public domain. It's effectively unlimited, without being technically unlimited, since every extension will establish a longer 'limited time'.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[westlake]

Because copyright law in the US is constitutional only insofar as a work is protected for a "limited time." DRM violates the limited-time clause, so the DMCA and any other DRM-promoting legislation is prima facie unconstitutional.

To begin.

The term limit for copyrights will be defined by Congress either through legislation or the ratification of a treaties like the Berne Convention. The Supreme Court is long out of the business of making policy decisions like these.

It is naive to assume that copyright is the only legal protection afforded to a work of art

In any event, copyright, or the expiration of copyright, was never a quarantee of physical access to anything.

You want to see Steamboat Willy you go to Disney or to the handful of museums and private collectors who have the original nitrate stock and phonographic disks or restorations for loan or sale.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[bmo]

That's exactly where I got it.

Sheldon rules.

--
BMO

Re:well, now that that's settled

[RobbieGee]

Maybe someone would have to compose a disc with a few free cool videos from the net (like the crazy retro-baby-pirate-kung-fu video from some months ago) that one could hand out for free. The discs would every now and then warn the user that the operation s/he tried to perform is permitted, but could easily have been stopped. Then a quick rundown of exactly what in "their" players would permit the *real* owners of their player/media to stop them from using the media they legitimately aquired. I suspect there'd be no trouble displaying a warning that "The time is now 15:27. We *could* stop you from watching this between 12:00 and 20:00 if we wanted. Beware of DRM! Booooo!" - or something similar.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[richy freeway]

How often do you play 20-30 year old media? Be honest now...

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Fred_A]

According to Disney, a "limited time" is fine as long as it's no less than the natural life of the solar system, which would still be legal by your definition.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[geminidomino]

Except Mickey won't ever fall into the Public Domain. Steamboat Willy might, but Mickey is a trademark.

It's a scam and they just use Mickey as an excuse.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever notice when you vomit it always has diced carrots in it, even if you never ate diced carrots ?

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Mark Gillespie]

Cable wars?? What are you smoking? Component is a analog format, with D-A and A-D sat at each end. HDMI is a pure digital signal path, there is no comparison...

Re:well, now that that's settled

[jnuzzo]

Your points don't make sense. Those are not 'wars' on the same sense as the DVD media formats.

HDMI is combined analog/digital sound AND video; component is analog video only. They can and will continue to coexist and do not even compete with each other.

The rest are healthy marketplace competition.

BluRay vs. HDDVD has the ability to limit the titles people can play on their player, and enough people know and understand this to restrict adoption of players using either format for some time to come.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[FireFury03]

DRM wars (they're all just added to each other, not which one's the best)

Multiple DRM systems is certainly a problem though - for example, if you want to watch several satellite channels which use different encryption, you need a CAM for each type of encryption. Either you have a sat receiver that accepts multiple CAMs or you have to fiddle around swapping them when you change channels. Not to mention the trouble caused by things like VideoGuard because the owners (Sky) refuse to actually sell a CAM, resulting in the need for a whole separate *receiver* for every type of encryption - absolute crazyness.

HD wars (each has its own pros and cons)

This isn't really a format war - it's simply a choice of compatable equipment. With a given TV stream you can use a CRT, DLP projector, plasma screen, TFT, etc - they're all compatable with the TV stream so this isn't a problem, people get to choose whichever they want. It's not as if you're locked into a particular service because of your choice of display technology.

DVR wars (market competition)

IMHO this is actually starting to become a bit of a problem because of bundling - with every service provider bundling their own hardware as part of the service, the businesses that create independent PVRs are left out in the cold. Exclude bundling and you open up a whole market to competition and that's good for the consumer - competition breeds both innovation and lower prices.

DVDs have macrovision

A slight correction - DVD *players* often do Macrovision, not DVDs themselves.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[rcamera]

have you checked gBay? you can find all kinds of old stuff there for really cheap. and they even take google checkout

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Lumpy]

Nope all those wars lost.

IpTV will be the solution. I watch 5 ipTV rss feeds now at home reducing my "leeching" of broadcast content at a friends home significantly. (Please Comedy Central, put the Colbert Report and the Daily Show online with a RSS feed!) Channel Federator absolutely rocks and is addictive as hell, dl.tv is my ZDTV fix, and on and on. If you like linux build a set top box with a HTPC case that looks like a piece of video gear for less than $300.00 and use mythtv, it you are a windows nut buy the same hardware and use XP Pro + MediaPortal Both kick the ever living crap out of the really lame XP media Center 2005 and use less resources so you dont have to buy a monster machine.

you get DVI out that most good plasmas and lcds support, and if you dont DVI->HDMI converters cost almost nothing.

Why wait around for them to figure it out for you? do it your self. Being PC based you can use these "anything" drives and play all formats (in linux after some tweaking to get rid of the "protection", in windows with the player app installed)

I dropped cable and my TV program quality improved.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[FireFury03]

delay my purchase until the next must-have technology arrives (next-gen DRM'd digital inputs/outputs

IMHO you can pretty much ignore DRM'd inputs - so many people have recently bought shiny new, expensive TVs which have no support for DRM I don't think the movie/tv industry will have a hope in hell of enforcing DRM until those TVs have reached the end of their natural life (10 - 15 years at the earliest).

Screw 'em. I'm building my own PVR/media center PC.

I run MythTV, which is great (the feature set is way better than Sky+). Sadly I can't receive any of Sky's encrypted channels directly from the sat dish - they have to come through the Sky decoder and get captured and reencoded from the S-video signal, all because noone has the balls to force Sky into selling a CAM. (Yes, I'm aware there are some illegal CAMs which can decode VideoGuard signals - they cost a fortune). Oh, Sky also won't give me access to the AC3 audio unless I pay them for a Sky+ PVR so I'm stuck with normal stereo.

On the other hand, if anyone knows where I can download a soft CAM that'll work under Linux and decrypt VideoGuard streams, I'm all ears...

Re:well, now that that's settled

[MyLongNickName]

You are a fucking idiot. The post has nothing to do with Communism other than mentioning as a tangent that Marx suggested the technique of making an undesired law so oppressive that it has to be repealed.

And, if you had a brain, you'd realize the point is that that technique does not work. Once you have ceeded ground, you have no chance of getting it back. People have short attention spans. Once something has been taken away, it isn't long before they've forgot they ever had it.

I wish smart bombs meant something totally different and were falling on America

Ah, brilliant. Rail against America, and prove that you are an even bigger tyrant yourself. Thanks for posting AC, coward.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[LeoDioxide]

Competition is good for the consumer.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[AnyoneEB]

Good point, the Beatles song I am listening to is more like 40 years old.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly I'm not old enough to care about what I had 20 years ago since I was only 4 then. However some of the music I listen to was made 20-30 years ago and I would expect to still listen to most of the music (well, at least the better stuff) I have in 20-30 years time and hopefully the media will still work.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[richy freeway]

But how old is the MEDIA that it's on? Sure, I listen to old music, but I don't bother to crack out the 8 track player when I do.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[kimvette]

Consumers do care, they just don't understand why they care. Proof of this is that disposable media has failed in test marketing, and Divx crashed and burned HARD. Consumers rejected it because they heard that they might get screwed, but didn't exactly understand how or why (aside the ones who bought into it and learned the hard way).

Re:well, now that that's settled

[kimvette]

In this case, the consumers win because if they buy the multi-format device they won't have to upgrade to BluRay when HD-DVD loses (or to be fair, vice-versa).

In the DRM wars, everyone loses except professional pirates. In the cable wars, consumers lose, unfortunately. I hope you enjoy your downsampled content once content providers turn that "feature" on. Actually, that is a DRM/cable war I look forward to when the shit hits the fan and even the kool-aid drinking consumers realize they've been getting ripped off by MPAA members. When Joe Sixpack's $7,000 Plasma screen HDTV doesn't display HD-DVD at full resolution, he's going to be looking to rip one of those artsy-fartsy folks a new orifice.

Compression wars? Yes, digital cable DOES suck (one of many reasons I haven't bothered with HDTV myself yet)

DVR wars? MythTV. If you choose MythTV, your DVR won't think you're gay if you catch Chasing Amy (oops, no pun intended there!) one night, and it won't decide to delete timeshifted content while you're away if big media or your DVR provider decided you can only keep it 24 hours. Need many more hours' of capacity? Just add a commodity hard disk. Also, it's worth pointing out that MythTV guide content is free, while Tivo's guide costs money and the DVR is pretty useless without the Tivo subscription.

Provider wars? (Digital) Satellite is OK, but I prefer cable, because in spite of its flaws, the features are great (I have Adelphia cable in my town). The guide features are great, OnDemand is great (aside from MPEG artifacts, but if I like the movie enough I buy it on DVD), and best of all, an office with real people I can speak with if there is a problem is right around the corner (literally), not 1,500 miles or 12,000 miles away.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[joeljkp]

I crack out the Beatles and CSNY LPs every few weeks or so. Vinyls are nice.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[joeljkp]

You know, I've always thought that if the law allows certain fair use rights, media companies should also be required to allow those rights. The same goes for allowing certain behavior in an EULA (making a backup) while making that behavior nearly impossible with copy protection.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[TerminalWriter]

I listen to the Beatles quite a bit. My mom gave me her old records. Sometimes it's nice to hear it in digital quality, but other times it's nice to listen to character of the old records. Plus I have old video tapes of Saturday morning cartoons from when I was a kid, my kids absolutely love some of those old shows. There they sit on VHS. Not that they were actually paid for, but you asked about playing 20 - 30 year old media.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[Millenniumman]

I've always wondered, how is DVI in any way better than HDMI. DVI plugs are huge, and they don't carry sound. It seems to me that everything should switch to HDMI, especially seeing as it's fully compatible with DVI.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[AnyoneEB]

Well, it is on my hard drive, which is about a year or two old. The Beatles is a bad example because their music is popular and has been rereleased on multiple mediums including the CD my copy was ripped from. Just talking about long copyrights being a problem, most music from that era is probably quite difficult, if not impossible, to get a copy of. Now, if you could find a copy, it would be within fair use to rip it to a digital format and keep copying it to new hard drives, so you would not lose it. But if the format was DRMed, not only would it be impossible to access if the DRM had not been cracked, it would be illegal to copy under the DMCA.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[John Miles]

In any event, copyright, or the expiration of copyright, was never a guarantee of physical access to anything.

Bull. That is EXACTLY the original intent of copyright. Originally, a copyright holder was REQUIRED to lodge a copy of the protected work with the Library of Congress to ensure its eventual availability to the public domain. The whole idea behind the Library of Congress was guaranteed physical access to protected works.

Now, the law not only doesn't require this assurance, but it explicitly sanctions technological measures designed to ensure that a protected work never becomes copyable.

How anyone can reconcile that fact with the Constitution's plain-language mandate is beyond me... but then, IANAL.

Re:well, now that that's settled

[MisaDaBinksX4evah]

I've always wondered, how is DVI in any way better than HDMI.

HDMI can downgrade your signal to a lower resolution if it detects that your hardware is not in compliance with its content regulation hardware. DVI does not do this. So, there's your answer.

How unexpected....NOT!

[FractalZone]

It was inevitable. Ricoh is not the firm I expected to announce such a gadget first, however.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[Lord Apathy]

Yeah. Anyone who didn't see this as coming is just brain dead and plan stupid. It was just a matter of time before someone combine all formats into one device. To tell the truth I'm grateful. I don't see a HD player in my future anytime soon but I don't have the room on any shelves for it anyway.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[Babbster]

Plans for dual HD-DVD/Blu-Ray[/DVD] players have always been in the works. This particular technology simply has the potential to make such a device more cost effective since manufacturers can use just one laser/lens assembly instead of two. We can expect to see combo players - probably not using this particular tech - by this time next year at the latest if LG (and probably Samsung - they've been waffling on the issue) have their way.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[kclittle]

Agreed, this whole high-def-disc format war was ripe for a clever technical hack from a neutral party (Ricoh has been playing both sides for a while, now). But if I RTFA correctly, this is a four-way hack: Blu-ray Disc, HD-DVD, DVD and CD. Thus if someone comes out with a reasonably priced, high-quality player than can do all four, I'll make room on my shelves simply by replacing my (aging) DVD player.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[ivan256]

Ricoh is not the firm I expected to announce such a gadget first

Actually, dispite what the misleading headline would like you to believe, this isn't the first to read both HD and BluRay, and TFA doesn't make that clam... It's the first to read both, and read CDs and DVDs too with a single head. That's the tricky part, as CDs and DVDs use a different wavelength than HD-DVD and BluRay. Prior to this, if you wanted backwards compatability, you needed a second lens.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[Lord Apathy]

I'm going to have to wait and see what comes out of it. My aging DVD is about 2 years old. Its one of those sony 400 dvd changers that I have my entire dvd collection stuffed into it. I think I will wait till I can get a drive that I can stick in to my HTPC that does it all.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[1u3hr]

Prior to this, if you wanted backwards compatability, you needed a second lens.

Is a second lens really that expensive? Comapard to the presumably extra expense and complication of this method? I believe my (cheap) DVD burner has two lenses, to burn CDRs (I might be wrong about that).

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[shaneh0]

It's not the COST of the second lens, it's the SIZE. That's why the article summary boasts of the compact size of this solution. There isn't a lot of extra room available, especially in small form-factor drives.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[Anonymous Coward]

But perhaps more impressively than just reading at the different wavelengths, comes the fact it writes as well. It's a bit of a double whammy!

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the system for doing this is not new. CDs and DVDs have different wavelengths and DVD players have been able to play both using a single lens for years. This just extends that technology - in otherwords a non-news item on the Slashdot frontpage.

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[Vskye]

It was inevitable. Ricoh is not the firm I expected to announce such a gadget first, however.

I'm not really too suprised that it was Richo actually. They used to have to top drives in the market back in the day. A buddy of mine had like a 2x Richo drive that he payed around $300 - 400 for, and it still works to this day. (even after a fire, all he did is clean up the drive)
 
Personally I think this will be a good thing on the new drive reading AND writing all formats. I'll wait until the drive AND media prices go drop down. (hell, I have a dual layer dvd drive here.. and I refuse to by the media until it drops in price to something more comparable to the single layer discs)

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[fbjon]

Hm, I wonder if if Microsoft would release a Blueray player addon for the Xbox360, or even a combined HD-DVD/BR drive?

Re:How unexpected....NOT!

[ivan256]

It's hard to fit a second lens and all the mechinisms that go along with it into a laptop drive.

hurrar

[hector_uk]

watch how sales of HD or blu ray only players plummet, this is fantastic news.

Re:hurrar

[eonlabs]

It's a nice trick. Diffraction to take advantage of the fact different wavelengths bend different amounts through the same material. As usual, when someone says something can never be done, they've probably missed a good half of the equation.

Re:hurrar

[Roguelazer]

Reprased: Watch as sales of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players go from approximately 0 units to approximately 0 units

Re:hurrar

[Moodie-1]

What sales?

Re:hurrar

[Teppic_52]

You seem to have described refraction there, not the 'spreading' effect of waves when passing an obstuction or aperture known as diffraction.

Re:hurrar

[TeknoHog]

With a diffraction grating, the overall 'bending' of waves does depend on the wavelength. In fact, you can use a grating with white light to get a similar 'rainbow' pattern that you get from a prism. The effect is more presicely controllable than refraction, so it is used in spectral analysis. (At least infrared, since I have some experience in the field.)

And just like the headline says, I believe that the new invention isn't anything more than a lens. A Fresnel zone plate, to be exact. I guess there isn't room for a conventional refractive lens, and they have to use a zone plate instead (it can be made almost arbitrarily thin). The drawbacks of zone plates that make then unusable for imaging (e.g. the focal length changes strongly with wavelength) should not pose any problems here.

Re:hurrar

[eonlabs]

Slip on my part, but it still applies to diffraction. The interference pattern you will get on the opposite side of a grating will still be dependant on the frequency of light passing through it. It's just independant of the type of material used to form the grating. Thanks for the catch though.

Re:hurrar

[Odin_Tiger]

What about the PS3, though? Haven't they started manufacturing? Lined up parts orders? All that good stuff? Doesn't this basically fux0r Sony for the first few hundred thousand units? It will be interesting to see how (if) they recover from this.

Re:hurrar

[hector_uk]

they won't, sony won't put this in the ps3, they virtually created blu ray, why support the competitor.

And they said it couldn't be done.......

[pele_smk]

And they said it couldn't be done.......

Re:And they said it couldn't be done.......

[ivan256]

Who said that?

Certainly not all the other companies that announced dual format readers prior to this.

The tricky bit here is reading DVDs and CDs with the same device that reads the HD-DVDs and BluRay discs. Reading HD-DVDs and BluRay discs with one head isn't that hard, as the optics are the same.

This is to solve the problem of (HD-DVD|BluRay)* + DVD + CD-RW in one drive with a single head, not to solve HD-DVD + BluRay in one drive.

Re:And they said it couldn't be done.......

[geniusj]

I'm pretty sure that you said it actually.. Man.. You can be so shortsighted sometimes.. :-(

Read only....for now

[LoverOfJoy]

From the article:

Although the diffraction device works for both reading and writing modes, Ricoh will initially offer the device for disk players only. Because some laser beam energy is lost at the grating, using the diffraction device for recording will require a blue laser with higher power than those used in conventional recorders.

It's a good start. Legal issues may end up being the biggest hurdle.

Re:Read only....for now

[uncleFester]

It's a good start. Legal issues may end up being the biggest hurdle.

not for this part of the player. legally, this piece of the puzzle (the technical one) is probably the least worrisome. it's what you do with the signal you read that starts getting you into trouble these days.. :)

-'fester

Re:Read only....for now

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't legal issues always the hurdle when it comes to new hardware and medium introduction and production?

Especially since these will probably be THE OTC optical formats till high density thumbdrive optical storage becomes a reality.

Outside of work, I don't plan on consider purchasing Blue-Ray and HD-DVD even though I have HD available on the TV and am looking to upgrade the A/V reciever soon.

I'll look at HD-DVD and Blu-Ray after 2010, thanks.

Re:Read only....for now

[jZnat]

He's talking about patents behind Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Licensing of both might conflict with each other (anti-competitive clauses for one).

cool.

[celardore]

I wouldn't mind a drive that burned all formats.

In fact, I wouldn't mind a drive that burned anything at all. My last one 'cookied' about 12 discs before it fucked up and my computer wouldn't start if it was connected. Being able to burn any format would certainly be useful though.

Re:cool.

[Anonymous Coward]

'cookied'

'Coastered'? ;P

As in, the discs are now only useful as drink coasters ;)

Re:cool.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I wouldn't mind a drive that burned all formats."

Huh?

What would be the point of wanting to burn HD-DVD discs when you already have the capability to burn 25gig/50gig BluRay discs?

HD-DVD will be forgotten about by the end of 2006. Right now the only places that even still bother talking about HD-DVD are Xbox forums and places like Slashdot that hope to continue the appearance of a 'format war' to generate hits.

Re:cool.

[celardore]

Sorry I was hungry and paranoid about security, so I was thinking of cookies.

Re:cool.

[NoodleSlayer]

StarForce at work!

Re:cool.

[Bing Tsher E]

It sounds like you've bought too far into the whole 'USB' thing. Heck, you might even be running an OS with too much USB support.

My DVD+R drive here on my NetBSD machine does about anything a person could want, and it was only a $60 drive six months ago. It's old fashioned though. Shucks.

Re:cool.

[LoverOfJoy]

What would be the point of wanting to burn single layer dvds when you already have the capability to burn dual layer dvds?

Answer: Price

For a lot of things hd-dvds will be adequate.

Re:cool.

[andrewman327]

You touch on a good point. Will this thing actually work? This device has amazing promise, but it will all come down to implementaion.

What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

No one cares about the additional cost of supporting the marketplace losing format in their drives. This lens is at best a novelty item.

BluRay has the full support of every movie company.
BluRay has the support of computer OEMs.
BluRay has Sony putting them in the 100+ million $499 and $599 PS3 that are going to be sold over the next five years.

HD-DVD died over a year ago. Everything since then has been Toshiba looking for a face saving way of accepting defeat.

Re:What's The Point?

[jr87]

you are an idiot goodnight

Re:What's The Point?

[ZachPruckowski]

You assume Blu-Ray sells. HD-DVD is a lot cheaper. Blu-Ray wins only if everyone buys a PS3. If everyone buys the xBox console, or the Wii, and then picks up a $300 HD-DVD player, BR is screwed. The first format to $150 players and $20 discs wins.

Re:What's The Point?

[Babbster]

BluRay has the full support of every movie company.

No, it doesn't.

BluRay has the support of computer OEMs.

A couple. Most are riding the fence, committing to nothing.

BluRay has Sony putting them in the 100+ million $499 and $599 PS3 that are going to be sold over the next five years.

Which will only be important if people feel the PS3 is worthwhile, and if it doesn't cause other Blu-Ray manufacturers to jump ship because Sony is taking away their sales with the PS3 loss-leader.

It's worth noting that while all the currently available next-gen disc players available so far have problems, the $1,000 Samsung Blu-Ray players seems to be the worst of the lot. It's also fairly important that both Toshiba and RCA are already selling their HD-DVD players for half the price of the Samsung unit and the forthcoming Sony Blu-Ray player. Finally, there are more HD-DVD titles on store shelves than Blu-Ray so far.

Personally, I'm still in wait-and-see mode, but your assertion that HD-DVD is already dead is premature at best.

Re:What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

"HD-DVD is a lot cheaper"

That isn't true. The only additional cost for BluRay was the conversion of existing plants and that cost is going to be spread out over the millions and millions of BluRay discs that are going to be sold over the upcoming years.

BluRay disc prices are right at the same level they were at the same point in DVD's lifetime.

"If everyone buys the xBox console"

They aren't. Microsoft is getting outsold by Sony's six year old PS2.

"then picks up a $300 HD-DVD player"

There are no 300 dollar HD-DVD players. There is a massively subsidized Toshiba player right now for 500 bucks.

Why would anyone pay 500 dollars for Toshiba HD-DVD player when you could get an entire PS3 for the same price that plays BluRay movies at 1080p over component and has the entire support of the movie industry.

"The first format to $150 players and $20 discs wins."

That is as false as the idiotic 'first to 10 million' claim a certain Microsoft exec tries to make.

The only hope HD-DVD was if Microsoft had been competent enough to include a HD-DVD player in the 360 and had managed to actually get consumers to buy their machine. With the 360 selling worse than the first Xbox and HD-DVD being nothing more than an expensive add-on to the console, HD-DVD just isn't viable in the market.

Hence why we have the enormous support for BluRay. Which is nice since it is the technologically superior format.

Re:What's The Point?

[NiceGuyVan]

BluRay has the full support of every movie company. No, it doesn't. Yes it does. Come out of denial any time now

Re:What's The Point?

[Jafafa Hots]

What is this - a new trend? Company operatives paid to astroturf slashdot?

Re:What's The Point?

[joe 155]

It is interesting that this got modded interesting... to quote from wiki:

"HD DVD is promoted by Toshiba, NEC, Sanyo, Microsoft, and Intel. In terms of major studios, HD DVD is currently exclusively backed by Universal Studios, and is non-exclusively backed by Paramount Pictures and Warner Bros. Studio Canal, and The Weinstein Company."

Re:What's The Point?

[FSWKU]

Why would anyone pay 500 dollars for Toshiba HD-DVD player when you could get an entire PS3 for the same price that plays BluRay movies at 1080p over component and has the entire support of the movie industry.

To get a dedicated device that does one thing well, rather than an a device that does multiple things poorly (PS2's horrible DVD playback, anyone?). And 1080p over component? Only until the MPAA decides to start shipping discs with the Image Constraint Token enabled. Then your $500 PS3/BluRay wonder machine becomes an overpriced console with a crippled movie player. Sure, your old titles will still work, but for newer films you will be stuck with DVD resolution unless you bent ove....err... shelled out the extra $100 to your gods at Sony for the priviledge of having an HDMI connector bestowed upon your grateful existance.

Re:What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

What better way of demonstrating just how dead HD-DVD is by stooping to referencing Wikipedia as a source...

HD-DVD isn't even being demoed at the local Frys anymore. It is all 1080p sets and BluRay. HD-DVD is off in one of the corners.

The only support HD-DVD enjoys appears to be in the tiny, foaming at the mouth Microsoft nuts. Toshiba themselves over the past year don't even give the impression they believe in their troubled format with their constant talk of trying to get the BluRay consortium to adopt certain HD-DVD technologies.

There is one phrase that best sums up Toshiba and HD-DVD:

Exit Strategy.

Re:What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3 (as a Blu-Ray player) making the Blu-Ray format become the standard is not ensured even if the (highly unlikely situation) PS3 dominates the Next-Generation Console War.

The reason for this is quite simple, the format that wins will be the one where the most movies are sold; much like the PSP, if the PS3 sells reasonably well yet there are no Blu-Ray movie sales then the format will dry up.

Re:What's The Point?

[Babbster]

Universal is still HD-DVD only, to name one. Other companies who are planning to support both have still announced no Blu-Ray discs while actually having some HD-DVD titles on shelves.

This page might help you out with YOUR denial...

Re:What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Universal is still HD-DVD onl

Bzzzt!

Universal has been supporting BluRay since last June or so. BluRay has every single movie house locked up.

Re:What's The Point?

[bunbuntheminilop]

What have you got against the wikipedia. What did it ever do to you!

Re:What's The Point?

[Babbster]

You know what would be great? It would be great if you could provide at least a shred of backup for that. When I hit Google, all I can find are references to the fact that Universal is the last of the "exclusive" HD-DVD supporters (at least among the major studios), including an April AVSForum post referencing a petition to get Universal to do Blu-Ray.

Me, I'd prefer that either everybody jump ship on one of the formats or everybody support both. Though I dislike Sony enough to wish them ill, I'd happily buy a Blu-Ray player (and recorder and juicer) if everyone was on board with the format. As it is, though, the choice is far from clear considering that while HD-DVD has fewer exclusive content providers there are far more HD-DVD titles available and with firm release dates than there are for Blu-Ray.

Either way, any attempt to portray Blu-Ray as having the complete support of all content providers is simply not true.

PS- And the phrase "locked up" would be out of place in any case. No studio, apart from those owned by Sony itself, has a contractual obligation to stick with Blu-Ray. If people start buying HD-DVD players either because they're cheaper or there are more movies out, companies previously giving Blu-Ray exclusivity will start jumping ship.

Re:What's The Point?

[EndlessNameless]

So what you're basically saying is, "dude, you should have said $600 for the PS3."

Re:What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

It masturbated on my mom.

Re:What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

$20 a disc? Most of the world still isn't there with DVDs!

Re:What's The Point?

[IHateChoosingAName]

You know what would be great? It would be great if you could provide at least a shred of backup for that.

You must be new around here...

Re:What's The Point?

[LoverOfJoy]

His first sentence had nothing to do with which version of PS3 is bought. Even at $600, the player on the PS3 will likely be adequate at best if the PS2's dvd player is any indication.

Re:What's The Point?

[Anonymous Coward]

The movies are already 20 at wally world. Both formats.

For something where the are bitching about 1 dollar on manufacture. I do not think it is that big of a deal to the end user. Wally world will dictate this one.

Re:What's The Point?

[Babbster]

It could potentially be worse than the player in the PS2 given the fact that there has been no word if the PS3 will provide decoding for the new audio formats available for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. The current players have those decoders built in, and the 5.1 outputs necessary to send the [at that point analog] audio stream to a receiver, and their digital outputs will only carry a traditional Dolby Digital 5.1 (or DTS if its present) signal. And, I have yet to see a home theater receiver that will accept and decode the new formats in the digital domain, even if HDMI and/or S/PDIF can carry them.

Re:What's The Point?

[MemoryDragon]

Are you from Sonys marketing department? All I can see is a bullshit bingo. Sony really has to be careful that they do not ride another betamax, minidisk, dat name whatever proprietary format from them you like... In the end the stuation will be that we will have dual players, but no standard will take over in the initial years, simply due to the stupidity of sony of pulling off yet another proprietary format no one needs, and then saying "suck it bitch" to its consumers over and over via the PS3 press releases the last months (I havent seen such a huge pr desaster in years). Neither format will take over any time soon, Sony hops Blue Ray will with the PS3, but they outpriced themselves.

Re:What's The Point?

[powerlord]

absolutely true but, as the argument goes, if the PS3 dominates the next-gen console wars (admittedly a big if), then a large percentage of "early adopter" households will have a blu-ray player.

Assuming you wanted to get Blu-Ray OR HD-DVD disks, which would you get?

Disks that you already owned a player for, or disks that you had to shell out an additional XXX$* for?

(* your price and currency symbol may vary ... see store for details :) )

Re:What's The Point?

[iainl]

Even on the best players currently on show, the current BluRay discs don't look as good as the HD-DVDs on sale right now, because Sony have used poor, elderly masters to create MPEG2 encodes, rather than Warner and Universal's fresh masters and VC1 discs at higher bitrates.

So maybe the person buying the Toshiba wants some quality for their money. Or, hey, wants to own it now, rather than sometime next year when PS3 stock shortages clear.

Price

[Chrismith]

So, if Blu-ray players are expensive as hell, and HD-DVD players are also expensive (though not quite as much), wouldn't a player that combined the capabilities of the two be even more expensive? Unless these things can be produced relatively cheaply, then this isn't going to be the answer to the format war.

Re:Price

[Anonymous Coward]

Likely.

Look at the price of Canon/Nikon lenses that use diffractive optics. Ouch. Now look at Zeiss/Leica lenses that use DO -- no, a car does not come with the lens. Yes, that is the right price.

Granted, this kind of stuff doesn't need that kind of accuracy, but DO lenses in general carry one hell of a premium.

Re:Price

[zippthorne]

All optics are diffractive. Are you sure you don't mean diffraction limited? which is actually quite different from the subject under discussion.

Re:Price

[Moodie-1]

Not it Ricoh makes good on their claim to handle all formats using just one lens. Previously, (like ivan256 mentioned above) you needed two lenses to do it. Getting by with just one lens has got to make the unit cheaper to manufacture. Now, what about CD-RAM? C'mon Ricoh, let's cover *ALL* the bases!

Re:Price

[Mr. Freeman]

No, not necessarily.
I think the main factor behind the price of the new formats is the fact that the companies CAN charge a billion dollars per unit.
Those units have one laser, and a couple lenses made to read only one type of data.
Combining the technologies really isn't that hard in concept.
You have one laser and a few lenses. If data on a disc is basically a bunch of burnt holes in a piece of metal, then all you have to do is shape the laser to read all of the possible different types of holes in the disc.

So, assuming that all manufactures charged what it actually cost to manufacture the one-format-only drives. This new drive would cost slightly more (blue laser, different lenses), but the price doesn't jump with each new format it can read/write.

Re:Price

[Cecil]

No they aren't. Most optics are refractive, which is the bending of light by passing it through a medium of a different density (a glass lens). Diffractive optics bend the light using diffraction gratings, which are tiny apertures about as wide as the wavelength of the light itself. By the combination of traditional refractive and new, expensive diffractive optics, chromatic aberration can nearly be eliminated. This is what is implied by a lens that has "diffractive optics". The elimination of chromatic aberration is one (of several) "holy grail" goals in the design of lenses.

Re:Price

[evilviper]

wouldn't a player that combined the capabilities of the two be even more expensive?

No. The expensive part isn't the lense.

The expensive part is the CPU fast enough to decode HDTV in h.264 in realtime. The expensive part is the HDMI video chip and output. The expensive part is licensing the codecs in the first place. Having only one set of those, while playing two types of discs, would make it far CHEAPER.

This will be slightly more expensive than a single Blu-ray player, if the two camps actually ALLOW that to happen.

Re:Price

[cttforsale]

Yes, till Daytek CHINA starts pumping them out so I can get a universal player at Walmart for $20.

You forgot the Pizza wars.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm totally serious about this, it is over frozen pizza. Right now McCain Foods Limited (a Canadian company) is seeking government intervention against Kraft Foods (of the USA) because they are flooding Canadian markets with frozen pizzas. I'm all for it though, because while the battle wages on I can get my hands on pizzas for three to five bucks.

I smell a hoax.

[Avillia]

Considering what a nice leap-forward in tech this is, Ricoh mysteriously says nothing about it in a press release or on another, more reputable site.

This one is going to...

[dnaumov]

...COST ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

Re:This one is going to...

[mindtriggerz]

don't you mean...
ONE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS!

(stupid lameness filter. yes it's like yelling. i AM yelling!)

Re:This one is going to...

[joe 155]

but it's still cheeper than the PS3

Re:This one is going to...

[Anonymous Coward]

And its frikkin laser can read multifrikkinple formats

Re:This one is going to...

[__michikal]

Pfft. Why'd they want to make billions when they can make . . . MILLIONS?!

Re:This one is going to...

[permawired]

No no no, it will be far more than that once they tally up all the fees from copyright violations!

well, now that that's settled-Gravity.

[Anonymous Coward]

"For instance, you seem to place a specific emphasis on DRM, but the fact is that it won't affect most consumers who just want to be able to watch a movie on their dedicated, licensed device."

*shrug* Geeks tend to focus on things that are irrelevent for the majority of the population. It's one of our more endearing traits. Just ask some women.

amateur

[Anonymous Coward]

Just become a pizza driver.

And in others news

[Hawthorne01]

Sony Corp, as part of its ongoing commitment to customer service, has bombed the R+D department to a smoking hole in the ground (Being Dabya references in 3...2...1... Write your own schtick, people! :-) ). When asked for an explanation, a Sony spokesperson said that Ricoh's solution "is not in Sony's best interests, and what's in SOny's best interest is in the best interest for the consumer."

In other other news, the Sony spokesperson in the previous story was just hired by Microsoft as Director Of Public Relations. A Microsoft spokesperson was quoted as saying, "His previous experience at the Iraqi Ministry of Information is what clinched it for us. This guy thinks like we do."

Re:And in others news

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not on crack, are you?

meh

[JW.Axelsen.Sr.]

i really don't care. sony tried to cram a format up everyones asses without making something like this, themselves. a company that has to rely on other companies to make its product widely usable by consumers? fuck that and fuck sony...he says from a windows machine...

Re:meh

[dangitman]

And the HD-DVD people made a nice, Open format and didn't try to shove it up anyone's ass? I don't think so. Pretty much every company involved in Bluray or HD-DVD shares some of the blame here. If it's all Sony's fault, then why are so many more companies supporting Bluray than HD-DVD?

Note: I fucking hate Sony, but it is totally unrealistic to think they are the only ones who want a locked-down format. Every movie studio and software company wants the same thing, and will co-operate with Sony or Microsoft to get it.

Re:meh

[Anonymous Coward]

isnt this besides the point. isnt one of the licensing requirements of blu ray that a blu ray player be only blu ray. this seems moot if that's the case

Don't have family eh?

[nickheart]

How many of your family and friends will just be an "in-duh-vidual" and buy one of the proprietary sets. then you wish to share your home movies, but need to make 3 HD-DVD's and 2 Blu-rays because your step-family all jumped on a HD-DVD sale?

This is already used in several DVD players

[Cochonou]

This kind of multi-numerical aperture diffractive lens has already been used in several DVD players for CD compatibility. As an example, check out this link.
Notice that you do not only need different numerical aperture lenses to read every format, you also need to generate lasers of the proper wavelengths. There are several solutions for this, but the easiest is to use three different laser diodes.

Re:This is already used in several DVD players

[FireFury03]

you also need to generate lasers of the proper wavelengths.

Why do you need to use the correct wavelengths?

Blueray discs use blue lasers because the pits are smaller than the wavelength of the infrared laser used for CDs. But why would that stop you reading a CD with the blue laser? The wavelength is still smaller than the pits so all you'd be doing is seeing the pits in a higher resolution, right? (or am I missing something?)

Re:This is already used in several DVD players

[Cochonou]

Sorry for the late answer.
There are several reasons for this. Here is the fundamental one:
On a standard CD or DVD (not a CD-R or DVD-R), the depth of the pit is precisely a quarter of the wavelength, and the bottom of the pit is reflective. This way, a beam reflecting at the bottom of a pit will have a pi/2 phase difference with a beam reflecting outside of a bit, and both of them will product destructive interference.
Obviously, this will not a different laser of a different laser, because the phase difference will not be pi/2.

On a side note, CD-R or DVD-R emulate this behaviour by having black burned "pit transitions" which do not reflect the laser beam, and therefore mimmick destructive interference.

Re:This is already used in several DVD players

[Cochonou]

Oops:
replace Pi/2 with Pi in the previous text.

Oh dear

[Mwongozi]

This is only going to make it more likely that both formats will survive. I would really rather prefer that one of the next-gen formats dies off - I don't really care which one.

Re:Oh dear

[aiken_d]

Seems to me that this makes it more likely that the survivor will be the one with the lowest disc manufacturing costs. So this development may make it take longer for a clear winner to emerge, I don't think we'll see both formats go on forever. And once one format gets the upper hand in mindshare and shelf space, cheaper players will appear that only play that format (cheaper because they will only pay licensing fees for BD or HD, not both [as the combo players will have to do]).

Me, combo players seem like a good step towards standardization.

-b

Re:Oh dear

[Threni]

> This is only going to make it more likely that both formats will survive. I would really rather
> prefer that one of the next-gen formats dies off - I don't really care which one.

Why? If they both succeed, you get the benefits of both formats in one box. I know they'll be expensive at first, but they'd be more expensive if there was only one format. It doesn't matter technically which frequency light is required, as you can either read disks using 2 lasers or just one smart one, and the decoding is all software so I really don't see how it matters how many formats there are, but more would appear to be better.

Re:Oh dear

[AbRASiON]

I agree, I don't want it like bloody blank DVD's now, they took so long to come down due to +R and -R formats, finally an affordable medium when the new formats are coming out?! way too long.

These morons should've just combined at some point, sharing isn't a bad thing if you're all making lots of money from it, these guys are basically like the contestant on a game show, instead of a guarunteed 20% slice they'd rather risk it for the big money.

I hope both of them take huge cash losses.

Re:Oh dear

[NutscrapeSucks]

You end up doubling the licensing costs if you support both formats.

Re:Oh dear

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only going to make it more likely that both formats will survive. I would really rather prefer that one of the next-gen formats dies off - I don't really care which one.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have been waiting for years for DVD+R to die off, yet somehow the bastard format still lives on!

SUPPORT DVD-R, THE ONLY TRUE WRITE-ONCE DVD RECORDABLE FORMAT! Annihilate DVD+R for once and for all!!!

And oh yeah, propz to all dead formats. This one's for you, DCC.

Re:Oh dear

[Threni]

> You end up doubling the licensing costs if you support both formats.

"You" being the manufacturer - not my problem. Presumably there's licensing costs on those £15 DVD players my local supermarket sells, but somehow there's still profit to be made...

Re:Oh dear

[Anonymous Coward]

The BD license forbids a player that also plays HD-DVD, so don't hold your breath for a combo player.

The HD-DVD license, on the other hand, allows for combo players, so it's really just Sony keeping it from happening.

Re:Oh dear

[GWBasic]

There was a format war between 33 RPM and 45 RPM records! In the end, the market adopted both.

Who would buy this?

[Pancake Bandit]

I can't imagine buying this. It's very likely that one of the formats will "win" over the next two years (especially with new game consoles pushing the formats), so it would make more sense to wait and just buy one burner when that happens. Neither format has much demand yet anyways, and won't until prices for players drop much lower.

Re:Who would buy this?

[joe 155]

but what if the technically inferior format wins, because it is slightly cheeper, and you want to be able to use this so other people can watch and play what you have made, but you want to be able to back up 200GB of data... so that would be good

"TDK recently announced that they have created a working Blu-ray disc capable of holding 200GB of data (six 33GB data layers)"... at the mo I've only seen HD-DVD at 45 GB (although I might just be out of the loop on that one)

Re:Who would buy this?

[stigmato]

Just like how one of the two recordable DVD formats (DVD+R/RW & DVD-R/W) was supposed to "win" and become the dominant format? AFAIK neither one has won definitively and it only makes sense to buy a drive capable of writing both simply out of convenience. Why lock yourself into one format when you can spend a couple more bucks for compatibility across the board?

Re:Who would buy this?

[Anonymous Coward]

So hey, did DVD+R or DVD-R win after? When you buy media, do you buy +R, -R or the cheapest at the time? Do you even know? A multi-purpose setup makes different formats transparent to the end user. What if HD-DVD wins and Sony decides to play BS and releases something that you *have* to see as a blu-ray exclusive? Wouldn't you like your "play everything" player then? I know I would. This is a good thing. Don't try and spin it otherwise.

Except for those who...

[RotateLeftByte]

Won't buy anythying associated with Sony after their rootkit fiasco and support for DRM and the RIAA, MPAA etc etc.
And all those who don't give 2 hoots about the PC3 or any other gaming toy (especially XBOX) for that matter.(This is actually the majority of computer users if you care to research the stats)

IMHO, the capacity of BLURay of HD-DVD is still an order of magnitude less that what I really need for a backup device. IN the past few years, HDD capacitied have increased dramatically and there are more increases on the horizon. But, backup media affordable by the masses has not increased buy anywhere the same amount. So, I think it is useless!
Why do I think so, Well as a professional software developer and systems integrator for the past 25+ years, I don't:-
      Play DVD on my PC's
      Listen to MP3's on my PC's (my Ipod is good enough)
      Play shoot'em up games of any sort

So, why do I need HD-DVD or BluRay?
What I want is an optical device tat can backup my 100Gb laptop HDD on ONE volume in less than 1 hour.
Give me that, and I will eat my hat

Re:Except for those who...

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

So you're going to stop using floppy disks, casette tapes, and FireWire?

Boycotting anything sony had to do with is going to get ridiculous. They've been involved in MANY technical decisions. many of which you have used/will use.

Anyway... BluRay does have spec for six layer discs at 33 gigs per layer, so... Nearly 200 gigs per disc. might get expensive but... There's your 100 gig optical disk.

Re:Except for those who...

[bitbucketeer]

Well, if you have a HR10-250 DirecTiVo, then you should know that there's been a method developed of ripping the HD stream with TyTool and writing it on a disc that will play in Toshiba's HD-DVD player. That fact alone may get me to purchase HD-DVD over Blu-ray.

Re:Except for those who...

[Moodie-1]

For someone who's supposedly been a "professional software developer and systems integrator for the past 25+ years" your spelling (and grammar) is atrocious! I counted 23 errors in your post. In order: "anythying" should be "anything" "etc etc." should be "etc., etc." "XBOX" should be "Xbox" "matter.(This" should be "matter. (This" "stats)" should be "stats.)" "BLURay" should be "Blu-Ray" "IN" should be "In" "capacitied" should be "capacities" "But, backup" should be "But backup" "buy" should be "by" "anywhere" should be "anything like" "so, Well " should be "so? Well " "don't:-" should be "don't:" "DVD" should be "DVDs" "PC's" should be "PCs" "MP3's" should be "MP3s" "PC's" should be "PCs" "Ipod" should be "iPod" "shoot'em up" should be "shoot'em-up" "BluRay" should be "Blu-Ray" "tat" should be "that" "100Gb" should be "100GB" "hat" should be "hat." And I'm not even counting the lack of a period at the end of your sig. If you're going to boast about your geek status then please write like you deserve it.

Re:Except for those who...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Moodie-1" should be "Shot" and i'm not capitalizing "i'm" on purpose. 8P

Re:Except for those who...

[dbIII]

If you're going to boast about your geek status then please write like you deserve it.

Make up your mind - do you want correct spelling or 1337 speak? Lighten up or go complain to some english literature students about the spelling in Canterbury Tales - or better still, read the thing and get this obsession out of your system. Reading comprehension is a more useful skill than spelling in a multicultural world where the language of the net (and documentation) is broken english.

Re:Except for those who...

[Moodie-1]

Sorry, I just got ticked off at the incongruency (how's that for a $25 word?) between the careless mistakes in RotateLeftByte's post and his seemingly superfluous (there's another one!) claim to being a well-paid computer geek for 25+ years. Seems to me that someone who's been specializing in software and IT for so long should be precise enough to avoid making these kinds of errors. I know it's just a post but doesn't anybody care about their public image anymore? Like the old saying goes "Something worth doing is worth doing well". What I wouldn't give to have a job like his... Ah well, we all make choices, but sometimes the choices are made for us. Maybe when I was in school I should have soaked up the high-tech courses as well as I did the English courses. 'Course, when I was in school there *were* no high-tech courses!

next big thing(tm)

[Albert Sandberg]

HD-DVD and blueray was both developed because both competing companies was trying to create the next big thing(tm) to make some serious profits on the formats. whatever format gets hooked by the audience, that creator is going to earn some serious buckaroids.

it's the same thing in the console war going on now, xbox 360 came out I don't know how much earlier than the others (ps3 and wii) just because this reason, they want users to quickly adapt so they will get hooked onto one system, when their friends get the games for it, so they can switch and trade.

it's all in the money, as usual, I rather just wait, I don't care who gets the buckaroids as far as I get quality for my money, the only thing is that I rather spend $10 than $20 on a product that differs 1% quality, or whatever, so whoever the cheapest in the long run will win...

seriously, I can't be more bored than listening to this vs war.

I like where it's going.

[Vo0k]

Both Microsoft and Sony trying to push players playing -only- their format, will be left out in the cold and 3rd party "multisystem" player manufacturers will get most of the cake.
Another blow to PS3 :)

Re:I like where it's going.

[Roguelazer]

Except for the fact that nobody's going to buy the PS3 or a hypothetical HD-DVD-equipped Xbox360 for the drive. People don't care about or understand details like that. Furthermore, multi-format drives don't necessarily signal death to single-format drives. I know a lot of people still using DVD-R/w and DVD+R/W drives, even though DVD+-R/W drives cost the same amount. That's what I think HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray is going to come down to- the same thing that DVD-R vs DVD+R vs DVD-RAM came down to. Namely, nothing.

Also except for the BIG issue- price. If it costs hundreds of dollars to make a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray drive, I'll bet that this HD-Blue drive will costs even more. Your average Joe Schmoe cares about his wallet first and foremost. He probably won't be buying any next-gen drives for a few years.

Also, I know that Sony/PS3 hating is in vogue now, but, please. Keep your herd mentality to yourself.

Re:I like where it's going.

[SpacePirate20X6]

Considering the PS3 is a "computer", isn't it feasible that it may support an external HD-DVD player? Coupled with the internal HDMI/DLNA that the 360 lacks, I'd say this puts the PS3 in a fairly favorable position regardless of the format wars' outcome.

Re:I like where it's going.

[dangitman]

Both Microsoft and Sony trying to push players playing -only- their format, will be left out in the cold and 3rd party "multisystem" player manufacturers will get most of the cake.

Why would they care? They aren't looking to make money selling players - they are looking to make money selling licenses (for their DRM and format) and content. This just means that these ridiculous formats are more likely to be adopted. So, they both win, and the consumer loses. Increasing adoption will only increase acceptance of the DRM tactics and proprietary lock-in, and make a real HD standard that much more unlikely.

A multi-format player would have to pay license fees to both HD-DVD and Blu-ray companies.

I have to second this.

[Rachel Lucid]

Virtual monopolies are needed (especially in formats) to help consumers eventually.

PCs took off because Windows provided an equal format for everyone.
Apple thrives in spite of this monopoly by maintaining its own monopoly through its OS, regulating everything in order to keep quality high and survive as a 'niche' demographic just as concerned with design and appeal as they did utility. Having a virtual strangehold on internet music helped too.

The only place where these 'format wars' have had even minimal success have been in game consoles, because they were largely seen as competing factions to a toy, instead of a 'universal medium' like office software or movies. If we get back to the point where we only have a couple of key consoles (I predict Nintendo will successfully splinter off, leaving the main war between MS and Sony), so much the better for game programmers.

Re:I have to second this.

[NutscrapeSucks]

> The only place where these 'format wars' have had even minimal success have been in game consoles

Somewhat. Usually a single console "wins" in every generation. The secondary consoles either die, survive in a niche (Nintendo) or require masssive subsidies (MS, Sega).

Re:I have to second this.

[Grave]

Not necessarily so. While it's true that Microsoft didn't turn a profit with the X-Box, they forced Sony to sit up and pay attention. The Cell processor and other PS3 components may have already been well in development by the time it became clear the X-Box wasn't going away, Sony (at least internally, despite their PR hubris) realizes they are no longer assured a lock on first place in this round of console wars. By the time PS4 and XB3 roll around, Sony will have learned a few critical lessons about staying competitive. Nintendo was all but massacred in the (very critical) US market last round. They reached back into their heritage and pulled out a hail-mary play that looks extremely likely to work. Not only has New Super Mario Bros. become a very high selling game this year, the demand for the DS is holding strong. Interest in the Wii is definately there, whereas whenever anyone hears the price of PS3, they start eyeing up the 360 which suddenly has a better price point, a quickly growing library of great games, and strong developer backing for future games. If Nintendo hits the $200 price point, Wii is almost assured the #1 spot even if they don't grow the gamer base, as so many PS3 and 360 fans will pick one up as their second system.

Competition creates better product. While sometimes there needs to be a final resolution to a battle (such as the HD vs. BR format war), that initial "war" is key to figuring out who's better. The problem with this particular battle is that neither standard offers a big enough reason to upgrade for consumers.

Re:I have to second this.

[StikyPad]

PCs took off because Windows provided an equal format for everyone.

Err.. PCs took off because the IBM PC was reverse engineered and clones proliferated the market, and because of the business software that was available. And was well before Windows became commonplace. As far as media formats, there were tons of competing technologies.. WORM drives, magneto-optical, hard drives, ZIP drives, and all sorts of proprietary storage tech. PC makers eventually adopted standard interfaces for RAM, the expansion bus, and eventually the CPU itself, but that's not really the same thing. About the only standard interface back then was RS-232, and even that was plagued with 9-pin vs. 25-pin and male vs. female.. you were lucky if you could connect any device without at least 1 adaptor. Once hard drives became common, pretty much everyone was using SCSI except the PC market, which mainly stuck to IDE because it was cheaper. And then there's EGA vs CGA vs VGA and early 3D graphics cards.

The PC took off either because of, or in spite of, format wars.. not format compliance.

Re:I have to second this.

[Crayon Kid]

Virtual monopolies are needed (especially in formats) to help consumers eventually. PCs took off because Windows provided an equal format for everyone.

And who says we're better of with PC being a de facto standard? Where would we be today if 5-6 alternative platforms and software, like Amiga and so on, would've split the market evenly? I say we, the consumers, would be a lot better off.

Competition brings on the good stuff, monopolies lead to stagnation. The corporate incentive is to innovate only when it brings them an advantage. Once they own the market they stop and milk it, they don't invent crap.

Where would we be today should Microsoft plus the PC be the only game in town? If there was no Linux, no Solaris, no Apple? We'd all wear patented, DRM-enabled Microsoft-made assplugs, that's where.

Re:I have to second this.

[poot_rootbeer]

PCs took off because Windows provided an equal format for everyone.

Except they didn't. There was a standard system baseline in PC/MS-DOS for a decade before Windows gained any popularity, and even at the height of Wintel's dominance there were still non-negligible numbers of users on other systems like Macintosh.

Star Wars

[jarg0n]

You forgot to mention the upcomming Star Wars

Re:Star Wars

[Al Dimond]

Upcoming? Nah, they happened a long time ago. But since it was in a galaxy far, far away the light just took until the '70s to reach George Lucas' telescope. And somehow some of the light took a longer path than other parts, so the story came to him out of order. And some parts of it twice.

Light is wierd.

Hurry out and buy it NOW!

[MindPrison]

...so the rest of us kids from the poorhouse can get it cheaper tomorrow ;)

But, could a consumer afford to license both DRMs

[Proudrooster]

Once again an elegant technological solution has emerged. Unfortunately a device that is encumbered with the licensing of both DRMs (Bluray/HD-DVD) would be cost prohibitive to the consumer. Anyone have an idea on how much it would cost a manufacturer to license both Bluray and HD-DVD, assuming this was politically possible, which it probably isn't.

David Strom

[HoneyBunchesOfGoats]

Who the heck is David Strom, and what does his corporation have to do with this topic?

Re:But, could a consumer afford to license both DR

[TwilightSentry]

Actually, I think both use the same DRM system...

trees!

[sky289hawk1]

with minute concentric groves on both sides

to fit so many trees onto a singular lens!

Re:trees!

[cathector]

yes, you'd think they'd need a plural lens!

Re:trees!

[cpsc2005]

The plural of lens is lenses.

I now await the reply finding the grammar and/or spelling error in my post.

Re:trees!

[cathector]

heh. yes, but i thought that "a plural lens" sounded better than "some plural lenses". either way.

They shouldn't be owned

[epp_b]

Companies should not be allowed to "own" formats. Eventually, they will be broken anyway. It's inherent with technology that if something is hidden or secret, it can and will be cracked (don't you remember what your mom said? There's always someone smarter than you).

Formats should be open and standardized. Eg.: Microsoft should not be allowed to monopolize the market by locking in users to their Office formats; and likewise, the media industries should not be allowed to screw over their own customers by creating formats that are designed to be combative against those customers.

Just imagine how many decades we'd be ahead in technology if things worked this way.

Re:They shouldn't be owned

[mctk]

Companies should not be allowed to "own" formats.

Why not? Let's review. Because:

Eventually, they will be broken anyway.
Likewise, people shouldn't be allowed to own cars. Eventually, they stop running anyways.

Microsoft should not be allowed to monopolize the market by locking in users to their Office formats
Locking in users to their formats? Sorry, the consumers have done that themselves.

the media industries should not be allowed to screw over their own customers by creating formats that are designed to be combative against those customers.
Consumers shouldn't buy from those companies in the first place. Anyways, historically screwing over your consumers has been a pretty unsustainable business plan.

Just imagine how many decades we'd be ahead in technology if things worked this way.
Business does not exist to further technology. It exists to generate revenue.

Thank God!

[Barbara, not Barbie]

At least now there's one LESS remote for you guys to hog!

All disk formats?

[tomhudson]

reads and writes all disk formats

Cool - my 5-1/4" floppies aren't obsolete after all! Arkanoids, anyone?

Re:All disk formats?

[woot account]

That means it should read/write hard disks, too, no?

Re:All disk formats?

[jonathansizz]

Arkanoids, anyone?

Yes, but I got some ointment to rub on them..

Surprise?

[NineNine]

It's no surprise, which is why I don't even care about digital format wars. Eventually, somebody ALWAYS starts combining them all together, so a few years after adoption, everything supports everything. DVD players that you can get in the grocery store for $49.99 play audio CD's, MP3 CD's, DVD single layer, DVD dual layer, DVD +R, DVD-R, DVD +RW, etc. Hell, My $100 PS2 does even better than that.! (I use My PS2 exclusively for entertainment. Love how easy it is.) As long as there's no physical difference in the format, the digital differences amount to just a few lines of code, which ends up being very cheap to combine on a tiny chip, even after those licensing fees. As long as the media doesn't physically change, there will be increasing convergence all of the time. Eventually, those cheap players that you can get at Wal-Mart will read HD, Blu-Ray, OGG, and WMA's. Just give it time. It'll happen.

Re:Surprise?

[dangitman]

Eventually, somebody ALWAYS starts combining them all together, so a few years after adoption, everything supports everything.

You got that right. I love my reel-to-reel/8-track tape/Laserdisc/Betamax/Magneto-Optical/5.25" floppy drive/gramophone. It has NuBus and everything!

Who cares?

[rsilvergun]

what worried me about the format war wasn't the pissing match between geeks over what's the best, it was the prospect of buying the 'wrong' format and having to shell out for a new player and buy all my movies again (or shell out big bucks for what's now a specialty item to play what I've already bought, anyone try to buy a betamax lately?). With tape at least you had to rebuy your favs everynow and then since the tapes wear out, disks don't really do that.

Re:Who cares?

[bmo]

"what worried me about the format war wasn't the pissing match between geeks over what's the best"

My point was that there are format wars all over the place and not just in consumer electronics. Indeed, format wars are the rule rather than the exception.

That there are format wars in electronics should not be surprising.

So I got modded "offtopic" twice by moderators that don't have a clue. Well, I've got more karma than you've got mod points, idiots.

--
BMO

moD up

[Anonymous Coward]

show that FrreBS/D

Still cheaper

[rsilvergun]

than a launch day PS3 off ebay.

well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[Anonymous Coward]

Well so are copyright extensions, and the supreme court has already ruled on that. So why wage a battle against technology, while ignoring the legal one?

BTW I've already posted were I stand on the issue, which I'm happy to say is mostly contrary to the modded up groupthink around here. :)

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[John Miles]

Incorrect. The Supreme Court said that the definition of a "limited time" was up to Congress. DRM that's based on strong encryption doesn't just take control of IP out of the consumer's hands -- it takes control out of Congress's hands as well.

100 years from now, no act of Congress is going to make it possible to play a BluRay disc if, by some unlikely chance, the media consortium gets the encryption right this time. When access to a work remains blocked after the expiration of its copyright term, the publisher will have failed to live up to its part of the copyright bargain.

In short, when Congress passed the DMCA, they willingly gave up their ability to enforce the limited-time clause in exchange for payoffs from industry lobbyists. The Constitution doesn't permit them to do that, and (inexplicably, IMO) the courts have never ruled on that point.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[StikyPad]

the courts have never ruled on that point.

Has it ever been raised? IANAL, but I don't think courts can just rule on something unless there's a relevant lawsuit in front of them, and I don't remember hearing about any lawsuits involving the constitutionality of DRM, even those from the EFF.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[FLEB]

BTW I've already posted were I stand on the issue, which I'm happy to say is mostly contrary to the modded up groupthink around here. :)

I agree with the points you make regarding the motivations and reasons for legislation like the DMCA and the like, but there's just far too much overkill stuffed in new legislation.

New copyright legislation is burdened with overarching restrictions that unduly take away the rights that people legally (or should I say "historically" at this point?) have had in regards to using, modifying, and building upon technologies and content which they legitimately paid for.

In true political fashion, the legislators just carpet-bombed when they should have been carefully crafting. Instead of taking the time to carve out legislation that illegalized Napster but allowed DVD decryption, they just dropped a blanket-statement down that made it illegal to, for instance, publish reverse-engineered findings about how to write a software DVD player. Oh, and I'm not naive: I'm sure industry finagling, (as well as unspecialized ignorance of the finer points and time/efficiency restraints) has a lot to do with passing these laws.

Additionally, I think much of the problem with The Copyright Fight is the extreme polar outcomes presented. If you're for copyright protection, you're on the side of the DMCA and idiotically unrealistic damages in lawsuits. If you're against copyright protection, you're on the side of wholesale uncreative all-media-piracy. The battle is so heated that more realistic and moderate solutions are drowned out. The compromises from piano-roll publishers and music writers, or between cable providers and local TV stations are positive examples of rational moderation. I'd say compulsory licensing probably isn't the answer in this case (the other cases were a more controllable B2B environment... throw individual consumers in there and it gets a bit more hairy), but my point is that the sides are treating this like an all out war, as opposed to examining the issue and coming up with a real solution, instead of overarching patch-job legislation and restriction of rights.

As you might note in my sig, I share the sentiments against the practitioners of flimsily-defended illegal infringement, and I'm in favor of the rights of content producers to have some control to offset the lack of tangibility and easy reproductive costs of their craft. However, just because there is copyright infringement, the government should not be taking away a consumer's non-infringing rights by virtue of their peripheral relatedness.

(And mentioning "groupthink" is just irrelevant name-calling, and, IMO, it just sounds petty. I've found that most fleshed-out, legitimate arguments do get positive modding and agreement (or counterargument, if they're flawed), even if it's against the imagined "Slashdot Groupthink" party line.)

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[Anonymous Coward]

"(And mentioning "groupthink" is just irrelevant name-calling, and, IMO, it just sounds petty. I've found that most fleshed-out, legitimate arguments do get positive modding and agreement (or counterargument, if they're flawed), even if it's against the imagined "Slashdot Groupthink" party line.)"

Well thanks for the kind words and didn't you see the smiley? ;)

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[Kadin2048]

The USSC ruled that the duration of copyright, since it is not precisely specified in the Constitution, is the domain of Congress to interpret.

The Court specifically did not say that copyright can go on forever, only that the duration can be changed more-or-less arbitrarily by Congress, meaning that if they continue to extend it to the point where it becomes 'forever,' then the Court has the power to step in, since that would be unconstitutional. Since they've only extended it once (so far), it's not yet "effectively forever," and the Court decided not to do anything.

I think both you and Mr. Lloyd (the Ars contributor who wrote much of what is quoted in the linked AC post) are off base. To be honest, Mr. Lloyd comes across as a bit of a Luddite. He sees 'art' only in terms of something that can be mass produced and sold many times over. This is understandable, since in our society this is fairly common, but it doesn't have to be that way. I could easily see many situations -- an entire future of situations -- where artwork is reproduced without compensation to the original creator, but there are still artists in business: because people pay for novelty. People will pay for originality. In a world where you could get anything that had already been created virtually for free, there would be an instant premium placed on anything that was newly-minted. Anything bespoke. Anything custom.

Obviously the payment framework would have to change -- artists couldn't guarantee a living by making things basically on speculation, hoping that they'd be able to recoup the labor involved in its creation over the years of royalties to follow, and instead would need to demand payment up front, like any other skilled laborer (which is what they are, after all).

Overall I think Mr. Lloyd's claims that the rise of cheap mechanical reproduction would lead to a catastrophic decline in artistic quality are foolish. Also, I think it's incredibly naive -- bordering on arrogant -- to assume that somehow our situation is historically unique. The argument that we are having today regarding the possible decline of the Arts in the face of a new technological age (and with it, new rules), has happened over and over. I'd argue that the situation with 'intellectual property' and DRM today is not dissimilar to the fundamental arguments over what constitutes art that happened more than a century ago with the rise of the photographic process.

There will always be a market for the labor of individuals who are skilled at their crafts, be it creating beautiful images, writing stories, making music, or building houses. The fact that some of them may be unable to sell the same labor thousands of times over may make make their trade comparatively less lucrative compared to others, but it does not fundamentally eliminate it.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[Anonymous Coward]

A balanced point of view on DRM discussions on Slashdot, now if only I had mod points ... hmm {checks that drop down} - hey, I've got some! +1 insightful for that post mate.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[Anonymous Coward]

"Overall I think Mr. Lloyd's claims that the rise of cheap mechanical reproduction would lead to a catastrophic decline in artistic quality are foolish."

Read it again. It's the abuse of that will.

"I'd argue that the situation with 'intellectual property' and DRM today is not dissimilar to the fundamental arguments over what constitutes art that happened more than a century ago with the rise of the photographic process."

Um, no. No one's arguing the definition of art, but the continuation of art when faced with technology that's increasingly being abused by "consumers".

"There will always be a market for the labor of individuals who are skilled at their crafts, be it creating beautiful images, writing stories, making music, or building houses. The fact that some of them may be unable to sell the same labor thousands of times over may make make their trade comparatively less lucrative compared to others, but it does not fundamentally eliminate it."

There's nothing wrong with the selling of labour "thousands of times over". It's fundamentally the same thing as Coke selling it's product a "thousand times over". In other words it's mass reproduction (aka the distribution of risk) that gives the consumer an affordable product, be it movies, music, games or Coke. There may be a market for skilled labour (debatable-look at the historic record), but it will go towards the few that can afford it (also covered by Mr Lloyd). Please read the entire thread, the link's near the top.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[mr_matticus]

No it doesn't. If you can bypass or break encryption today (there are few unbroken formats), you'll be able to do it in the future. If Congress rules DRM illegal one day, there are several avenues to recover the data, especially for encrypted discs.

You could start by releasing software players that decrypt the protection scheme on DVDs or Blu-Ray. You could go as far as forcing the companies to release an application which will rewrite the original mp3 file without DRM, or mandating that all DRM media purchases and files must be replaced with non-DRM versions (in 20 years perhaps even at a much higher quality). They can do this because there are detailed records of who buys what these days--people normally hate such things, but if DRM gets the axe, it does have that silver lining.

In other words, the sky is not falling down.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[d3ac0n]

Well said sir, well said.

I'm not entirely certain how we got to the point that artists (and media conglomerates) have a right to earn recurrent income from a single effort, but I think that time should come to an end.

Obviously, if an artist CAN manage to make a recurrant income, they have a right to try. But they are not, and should not be GUARANTEED one simply by virtue of being an artist.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[nutrock69]

Which is why the xxAA are only suing people who don't have enough money to properly fight back in a real court of law. Suing thousands of people who can't afford to fight for infringement of an unconstitutional law is a profit point. Suing people who can afford to fight back long enough to get a court high enough to do something about the unconstitutional law would stop those incremental profits.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[drinkypoo]

100 years from now, no act of Congress is going to make it possible to play a BluRay disc if, by some unlikely chance, the media consortium gets the encryption right this time.

Not possible. If the media has to be presented to a human, then it has to be decrypted, and can be intercepted at that stage. One way or another.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[Anonymous Coward]

So it's OK to pass bad legislation because teh hax0rs will save us.

Gee, with that kind of thinking, you should run for Congress...

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[drinkypoo]

So it's OK to pass bad legislation because teh hax0rs will save us. Gee, with that kind of thinking, you should run for Congress...

So because I disagreed with a technical comment, you assumed that I'm in favor of stupid IP laws. With that kind of lack of thinking, you should run for president.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[RevWhite]

What a wonderful vision of the future. I really wish that were likely, or even possible, given our money-grubbing media companies and their lapdogs in Congress. I simply don't ever see DRM being made illegal or even being removed from the books now that it is there.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[mr_matticus]

I don't see it as likely, but if Congress decided to do something about it, they would have plenty of ways to do it. They haven't passed anything out of their control as the parent suggested--that's all I'm saying. Maybe one day we'll all be shocked when the government acts as an instrument of good.

Re:well, now that that's settled-Extensions

[RevWhite]

Perhaps I'm just too jaded to even imagine it. I really do wish it could come true, though.

Hmm...

[JimXugle]

How about DVD9 + $CODEC? It's cheap, proven, and already availible on the market. Not to mention, improvements could be made with code updates to players.

1) Buy Bunches of Dual Layer DVDs, 8-Processor Motherbord and 8 Dual-core processors (And other stuff)
2) Restore Movies from Film onto RAW avi in 1080p
3) Transcode into $CODEC
4) Burn transcoded video to Disk as Data
5) Build DVD player with HDMI port
6) ???
7) PROFIT!

Cathode Rays

[Anonymous Coward]

HD wars (DLP, LCD, Plasma, i vs p, etc.)

Real men watch on CRT, bitches!
...I mean, you insensitive clod!

I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

...welcome our new optical component all-disk-formats-writing-capable overlords.

To quote from wiki...

[Traegorn]

To quote from wiki: "According to a 2003 poll, 87% of the sitting members of the United States Congress have suffered from severe head injury brought on by impacts with fire hydrants."

Of course, that's only because I just *wrote* it there...

Re:To quote from wiki...

[joe 155]

well, some people don't like wikipedia... you can write anything you want, and some people do, I prefer to trust that people can be sensible when trusted... "trusted people are trustworthy"

Remember they have a lot in common...

[Kjella]

Once again an elegant technological solution has emerged. Unfortunately a device that is encumbered with the licensing of both DRMs (Bluray/HD-DVD) would be cost prohibitive to the consumer. Anyone have an idea on how much it would cost a manufacturer to license both Bluray and HD-DVD, assuming this was politically possible, which it probably isn't.

Well, the protection system (ACSS, which has nothing to do with CSS except in name) is the same, except Blu-Ray added a few extra bells and whistles. Also, you should only need one license per codec (MPEG2, H.264, VC-1) since they're the same. Any basic blue-laser related patents may also be the same. However, you may have to pay any other patents twice. It might happen, it might not... DVD+/-R recorders don't seem to cost an arm and a leg, for example.

I'm with ya buddy

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow lost in the shuffle is that bluray (the wavelength of ultraviolet vs infrared) has the potential to increase data storage densities in optical media by a couple orders of magnitude. Perhaps this is not enough but would be better then what we have now. Backing up a 300GB disk to another 300GB disk is currently the best mainstream option.

On technical merits of data density and speed, bluray is the logical choice moving forward. Unfortunately the driving force is who has the better DRM package and who can sign the most deals in support of it with price determined by market uptake in the entertainment sector.

Meanwhile magnetic recording densities continue to improve. Now we have perpendicular recording which puts Terabyte drive capacities right around the corner in consumer space. So how do we back that up? How many tapes is that at what cost? How many optical disks is that and how long will it take to burn them?

I expect somebody will start producing removable, transportable, archival quality hard drives before any of the other options sort themselves out.

Data backup is almost a forgotten segment. Never was to high on the list in the minds of many.

Re:I'm with ya buddy

[Moodie-1]

Ummm... AFAIK Blu-Ray uses a blue laser, not an ultraviolet one. Although the use of a UV laser would increase capacity even more. However, increasing the frequency of the laser increases the development problems as well, such as the greater chance of undesired chemical changes in the disc medium due to the shorter wavelength used. Different kinds of EM radiation have different effects, y'know. I have no doubt that someone is working on this issue, though. We'll probably see the introduction of Blu-Ray's or HD-DVD's successor(s) based on this technology in a few short years.

HD just won the format war

[Anonymous Coward]

If consumers can play both media then they will purchase the cheaper media, which is HD.

"All disk formats"

[xkr]

Includes my collection of 8-inch floppies and four sizes of ZIP media. I suppose it's too much to ask it to play my mother's 8-mm film collection, isn't it?

Re:"All disk formats"

[Random Destruction]

Screw zip discs, these are all that matter.

Re:"All disk formats"

[tomhudson]

Well, if we're going that route, maybe it'll also play my aunt's 33-1/3 LPs. Better yet, my sister is the "custodian" of a bunch of the original 12" (not the smaller, "more modern ones" from the 40's) 78 rpm shellacs. Definitely antique material, and since the copyright expired LONG ago ...

Re:"All disk formats"

[Petrushka]

You worry about your 12" discs? Me, I'm wondering how to get the damn cylinders to fit into the tray.

Re:"All disk formats"

[Hillgiant]

Just warm the wax and it will squish right in.

PS3

[DavidV]

Sony should put this in to remove the risk of ending up with betamax with the PS3, especially at that price. The rest of the Blueray squad may not like it though.

Need better format instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't dismiss the convienience of DVDs and CDs as a storage medium for my media and computer data. Instead of establishing a new format all-together, wish the industry would really come out with one standard and superior format. Especially with all the effort gone into Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, we probably would already have a better format.

I think we've all experience scratches on optical discs. Crashed hard drives. (I can't speak from experience of data tapes). Optical discs that simply won't read anymore (either bad quality media, bad burn, burned too fast ... (slightly well done, I guess????), not to mention the whole idea of CD/DVD-Rot). All of these problems are sure to arise with the new formats of optical media because they're the same. Plus they're not really high-bandwidth, don't store a lot and take up a lot of space when you have many GB to back up.

What of the holographic media? Any new polymers that will prove more reliable? Magneto-optical technologies? Flash?

Besides, I hate to think (as with generations before) that all the $$$$ I have invested in CDs and DVDs will be rendered useless in a few years.

I was just making a joke...

[Traegorn]

I was just making a joke, and not taking a serious dig.

And you'll also note, I just said I was quoting a Wiki - I never said a thing about Wikipedia. :)

one more...

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot the Sativa vs. Indica War!

Ford does tell you that you can't tinker....

[kaladorn]

Hmmm. Ford doesn't tell you that you can't tinker with the cars engine... unless of course you want the warranty to be valid. If you do anything fairly dramatic and it doesn't come out so well, or even if you fail to have documented proof you followed the prescribed maintenance schedules, they can be right buggers when it comes to satisfying a warranty issue. They've outright said that a number of mods, such as chipping, will invalidate warranty.

So, in a sense, they do in fact tell you that you can't tamper with the engine you bought, because you also (generally) bought a warranty from them that is obviously based on the idea that they would be the ones (with their licensed mechanics and all the approved equipment) working on your car over that warranty period and that you wouldn't want (or be able) to do anything with your car during that period.

Note, I'm not singling out Ford either. All car companies do that. I can see why too - I just imagine warranty claims from folks who've screwed around with the computer-controlled engines of today and buggered something up, through ineptitude rather than any design or materials defect on behalf of the manufacturer. So one can understand how that led, in a fairly linear sense, to today's rules about modifying or tinkering with your car invalidating warranties.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily agree this is how things should have progressed, but I can see the logic that brought us here.

Re:Ford does tell you that you can't tinker....

[lonasindi]

Not the same. Ford says 'If you tinker with your engine, no warranty for you.'

Media companies say 'You can't tinker with this.'

Re:Ford does tell you that you can't tinker....

[John Courtland]

There's actually a law that prevents an automaker from doing just this. If you install an aftermarket part and an emissions related component fails, the burden of proof that the part you installed caused the problem is on the hands of the dealer. They CANNOT deny warranty service unless it truly is your fault. Read more here: http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8128

Re:Ford does tell you that you can't tinker....

[Kadin2048]

There's a quite fundamental difference between saying "hey, if you mess around with this and screw something up, we're not going to pay to fix it" and saying "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO OPEN THIS UNDER PENALTY OF LAW."

If I buy a brand new Taurus (or whatever they've replaced the Taurus with these days) and immediately open the hood up and put a supercharger on the engine, I may well have voided my warranty. (If I'm not a service technician.) Basically Ford is washing their hands of me. It's my car, I can do whatever the heck I want with it, but they're not going to clean up my mess if I break it. That's perfectly fair.

What DRM does, in concert with the DMCA, is make it illegal to modify things in equipment that you own. It would be like Ford telling me that I can only put Mobil gas into my new car, and if I modify the gas port so that I can use an Exxon nozzle, not only are they going to refuse to help me fix it, but I'm a criminal as well. They are saying not what they will or will not do, but what I can or cannot do.

In the case of a voided warranty, there's no inherent judgment on the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the action/modification made: your property is your castle, to do with what you think fit. You only have to follow the rules if you want outside help later on. With the DMCA, it becomes actually illegal to tinker with something that you yourself own, regardless of whether you're ever planning on taking it outside your home again, or if you were planning on asking someone later to fix it.

That's a pretty big and important distinction: your right to use something that you own is not like a car warranty, and shouldn't be able to be voided just because you break somebody's holy foil seal. If you own the box, it should be yours to do with however you like.

Re:Ford does tell you that you can't tinker....

[FireFury03]

If you do anything fairly dramatic and it doesn't come out so well, or even if you fail to have documented proof you followed the prescribed maintenance schedules, they can be right buggers when it comes to satisfying a warranty issue. They've outright said that a number of mods, such as chipping, will invalidate warranty.

But you're not going to be thrown in jail for doing this. I think this is a bad analogy anyway - in breaking a DRM system you're (probably) not modifying the original media, you're just manipulating the data you read from it. Personally I couldn't care less if they told me I would void the warranty on a DVD by cracking the DRM - I have plenty of other products that I voided the warranty on as soon as I got them (to name a few: I flashed my wireless access point with WhiteRussian and I chipped my old PlayStation)

Re:Ford does tell you that you can't tinker....

[iamlucky13]

Of course, the *AA's have circumvented the roughly equivalent precendence in the car analogy by arguing that the user does not buy content. Instead they maintain that you buy or lease a license (or something to that effect) to access the content. Ownership of the content remains in the hands of the creator. This much doesn't seem overly outrageous to me. My problem is when they tell me how I will access the content. I can't think of any good car analogy for this.

Arguring for this limitation is motivated by the fact that it is possible and even easy to violate the terms of the claimed license by making copies and giving them to your friends, etc. There doesn't seem to be too much disagreement that this sort of behavior should be illegal. However, the lawyers are attempting to shift the problem from being about people who do perform an illegal act to people who can perform an illegal act. A car analogy would be: because I can use a leatherman to hot wire a car, I should not be allowed to own a leatherman. Actually, in retrospect, we're talking about intellectual property rather than physical property. Perhaps I should say that because I can use a digital camera to steal design details from Ford, I shouldn't be allowed to own a digital camera. For that matter, perhaps I shouldn't be allowed to own eyes. And since I can use my ears and voicebox to capture and replicate (in even more painful fashion that Britney Spears, I admit) "Oops I did it Again," maybe I shouldn't be allowed to have those.

I believe this kind of restriction is called pre-emption. In some cases it is considered legitimate. For example, we don't let people have unlicensed explosives, not because they will blow something up, but because if they do, the damage will probably be significant and potentially irrepairable. On the other hand, if I steal a movie (actually, watch an unlicensed movie), I've deprived the content owner of $15 and nobody died. Regulating piracy my way (prosecuting the guilty) might not engender as much obedience of the relevant laws and therefore some amount of increase in losses due to piracy. Regulating that the MPAA/RIAA way (crippling the innocent) could mean a very significant loss of freedom for users to not only play licensed to content, but also to develop and distribute new content. It also has a cost in terms of required features to support DRM and other similar encumberments. Given the balance of these factors, pre-emption seems to me like a terrible policy for controlling piracy.

There's a subtler point....

[kaladorn]

With modern disc lifespans not living up to original expectations, I'd be highly surprised to see a BluRay *disk* survive 100 years. Sure, I understand the point about having media you can't play (I'm sure some of those old wax cylinders from early grammaphones are tough to play today), but I think the impermanence of the medium will help to gaurantee that this isn't as much of an issue as one suspects.

Best that we don't store literary classics strictly digitally. Unless of course, the underlying medium is some sort of diamond platter or something.

Re:There's a subtler point....

[FireFury03]

Best that we don't store literary classics strictly digitally. Unless of course, the underlying medium is some sort of diamond platter or something.

Storing stuff digitally is fine, even on a medium that degrades over time. You just have to make sure you copy it onto a new medium before the old one starts (unrecoverably) losing data. Infact this is better than analogue in this respect because:
- Analogue media still degrade, but you have no error correction data (so *any* degredation shows up in the playback)
- It's quite difficult to quantify the degredation of analogue media *because* you have no error detection system. Digital media usually contain checksums which will allow you to quantify how much degredation has occurred
- You lose quality every time you copy analogue media.

You PC users

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll look at HD-DVD and Blu-Ray after 2010, thanks.

You Windows and Linux users. Always on the forefront of new technology. It must suck to be condemned by your lack of taste always to follow fashion, rather than to set it as we Mac users do.

Re:You PC users

[WilliamSChips]

Um, what new media standard was created by Apple in the past few years(AAC wasn't made by Apple, and FairPlay is only DRM, and not even standard)
In fact, what has Apple actually set? All they did was steal from Xerox.

Re:You PC users

[pomo monster]

Clue for you: Ford didn't invent the assembly line. The Wright brothers didn't invent the airplane. Wanamaker didn't invent the department store. Edison didn't invent the light bulb.

All these people derived inspiration from their contemporaries. All they did was "steal" ideas from others and make them better.

Steve Jobs' saying, that "real artists ship," is right on the money. Production, after all, has a more lasting impact than theory and prototype. Now let's hear from you an example of Linux community innovation even by the diminished standards set by the aforementioned inventors, or fail.

Re:You PC users

[steve_bryan]

All they did was steal from Xerox.

That same tired old canard trotted out one more time. There is the legalistic answer about deals made and licensing arranged but a more significant recounting of that piece of history is that Apple hired the scientists and engineers from Xerox PARC, like Alan Kay, Larry Tesler and others. This put them in a company that actually had a clue about what was required to accomplish their goal which led to the Lisa and Macintosh. Of course you may be of the opinion that these individuals should be viewed as indentured servants of Xerox who had no right to use ideas that were the property of their former pointy-haired bosses at Xerox. Different stages of personal computing were invented three separate times at Apple: Apple ][, Mac, and OSX (NextStep in Mac drag). That is a remarkable record of creation and it is just some high points. For example both HyperCard and QuickTime could arguably be considered. Another easily overlooked act from the past was that Apple was one of the petitioners to the FCC to allow for unlicensed spectrum that eventually led to WiFi. What the heck, let's not overlook FireWire.

They're not quite in the same league as IBM as far as fundamental contributions (hard drives, relational databases, various Nobel prize researchers, etc) but Apple is no slacker as you would imply. Now for having so little awareness of the history involved, you should go over to the corner and sit quietly.

Who Cares Anymore?

[pjludlow]

I've tried to keep track of this "up-and-coming" format war for quite a while now. I used to favor Blue-Ray quite a bit as it just makes sense to pick the format with the biggest capacity in my opinion. However, I could really care less anymore. I predict there will be no "real" winner. If I, a Slashdot reader and computer nerd, don't care about HD-DVD or Blue-Ray anymore do you think the average consumer will? I highly doubt it. There is no huge convenience factor that sets apart either new format as a must have for consumers. Blue-Ray and HDDVD are glorified DVDs without much benefit over that of what everyone has now. More resolution? Big deal. More DRM? Yeah, that will be a big selling point... I compare the movie industry to the music industry a lot. I feel the music industry goes through what the movie industry will down the road in a decade or so. Let's take a closer look. Music: Cassette Tapes -> CDs (Many benefits such as noticeable higher quality and jumping to any track you want instantly.) CDs -> SACD, DVD-Audio (Slightly perceivable better quality but both have never been successful in any way, shape or form.) CDs -> Online Downloads (Very convenient, instant gratification, maybe not better quality but that doesn't seem to matter.) Movies: VHS -> DVDs (Many benefits such as noticeable higher quality and jumping to any track you want instantly.) DVDs -> BlueRay, HD_DVD (Slightly perceivable better quality but both "will not be" successful in any way, shape or form.) DVDs -> Online Downloads or On Demand (Convenient, and somewhat instant gratification.) By the end of the decade I see much more progress being made to having home movie servers (media PCs, whatever you want to call them) where all y our movies are stored and you can access them much like you can with music now with programs such as iTunes. I see myself personally gravitating towards this sort of use already. I once thought that HD-DVD or Blue-Ray would do much better in PCs for backup purposes, but as has been said by others the greater capacities are not keeping up with what is needed now. For me to back up my almost full 250 GB hard drive it is easier for me to just by a new larger drive and transfer everything to it while keeping the old one as a backup somewhere. So long for being useful Blue-Ray or HD-DVD. Unless you come out at a cost lower than DVDs I don't see either of you getting far.

One compatability question still lingers....

[bobdotorg]

Is it shark mountable?

Rioch

[punkrockguy318]

Your going to need to be Rioch as hell to afford one of these!

Ricoh Lens!

[aapold]

Why do I picture some swiss guy up in a mountain bellowing about this?

0.1 mm?

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:

The data layer of the Blu-ray Disc resides 0.1 mm from the disk's surface, while the HD-DVD data layer is 0.6-mm deep from the disk's surface, the same as DVD disks. CDs have a data layer depth of 1.1 mm from the disk surface.

How many times are those blu-ray discs going to go through my local video rental's disc 'cleaning' machine before they hit aluminium?

Re:0.1 mm?

[Asic Eng]

How many times are those blu-ray discs going to go through my local video rental's disc 'cleaning' machine before they hit aluminium?

I don't know, but don't they clean the other side - away from the data layer?

Big optical storage + large, fast memory tech

[FractalZone]

What doesn't surprise me is that their solution involved optics. I would expect that some sort of traditional laser plus lens/prism/mirror setup, combined with a diffraction grating and/or Fresnel lens arrangement might enable quite a variety of optical media format's to be handled by the same R/W mechanism with a physically fixed laser assembly.

It seems to me that it ought to be faster and easier to manipulate a beam of coherent light than to physically aim a laser light source to reflect just the right way off moving media onto a sensor/reader.

A nice approach, given the affordability of gigabytes of memory these days, would be to have a system where you insert a DVD (even some flavor of HD optical disc) and read it into (also portable) flash RAM. A typical workstation might have one or more ports for 32GB flash RAM sticks and a ~64GB R/W super HD optical drive. I'm talking about maybe three to five years from now, when 8GB of fast RAM will be routine on a $500 PC with a multi-core 64-bit CPU clocked at ~10GHz.

The point is that the storage/memory required to hold all the data from several movies or a few weeks worth of playlist will be able to be transferred from relatively large and slow optical media to/from smaller, faster, move portable removable memory sticks, and from there directly to/from working memory as needed. Media and memory capacity are no longer major constraints and will become almost trivial factors in the near future, I think.

Then HD DVD wins!

[benwaggoner]

Well, if it's replication costs, it's already over, by a huge margin. Blu-ray is struggling to get yields to even half of that of HD DVD, with higher materials cost. And an HD DVD line can switch between DVD and HD DVD in minutes, meaning it's a much less risky capital investment.

Also, HD DVD has proven higher capacity (most released titles are 30 GB) while Blu-ray has only shipped 25 GB discs (they keep promising 50 GB discs, but nothing has been released to market).

MPEG-4

[ratsnapple tea]

MPEG-4's file format is based on QuickTime. Just one example of many.

Disk Cleaning?!?!?

[Anonymous Codger]

Your video store uses a disk cleaning machine? Unheard-of. The first thing I do when I rent a DVD is wipe all the fingerprints and smudges off so it won't start hanging and skipping halfway through the movie.

Three extentions, not one

[GodWasAnAlien]

Oiginal US.
14+14

1909
28+28 years

1976
75 years

1998
120 years

(As a reference, The Stationers held a publishing monopoly in the 1500's for 137 years)