Slashdot Mirror
Shake Hands with the Zero Tension Mouse
ThinSkin writes "Given its shape and ability to cup your hand, the Zero Tension Mouse can be moved around without bending the wrist or moving the fingers, while also keeping the hand in a vertical position and the arm in a more ergonomic neutral position. ExtremeTech reviews the Zero Tension Mouse and, although acknowledging it as 'funny looking,' concludes that it amounts to a whole lot of worth for those who need it, or those who want to take preventative measures against RSI and related ailments."
Make it RF or BT and I'll consider it.
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
Somehow I can't help thinking that all these devices that supposedly "help prevent" "RSI" are the modern equivalent of snake oil... Would be nice if products had to undergo proper medical testing (done by real scientists, that is, not quack doctors with a degree in "office therapy") before they could make such claims...
Yes, it does look like something the goatse guy might shove up his ass.
I see this as a legitimate product. It doesn't take a medical degree or a huge budget to see that if RSI is caused by using a particular joint, avoiding that joint avoids the problem. You do not need to move your wrist at all to use this mouse. A device built from a sound principle, no snake oil involved.
Like the Dvorak keyboard, ergonomic innovations that force people to relearn basic skills are bound for failure irrespective of the upside. Companies should instead develop ergonomic enhancements that integrate into the existing workspace.
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
...worthless
Thou shalt commit sarcasm
I have my mouse setting at such a speed, that I can hold my wrist supported, and just move the
mouse with my fingers, and yet reach all over my desktop. Only gaming demands more "alive" movements.
She: Hey, are you a traitor? Me: No, I'm atheist.
Given that computers have become so common at both work and in leisure pursuits, some long-time users are experiencing a gradual build-up of pain attributed by RSI, or Repetitive Stress Injury.
For me, chock up the RSI to those "leisurely pursuits." The only way this thing could improve over my wireless is if it was easy to use ambidextrously and dispensed lotion...
I spend most of my time in bed, darling.
Buy a friggin' graphics tablet!
Circumcision is child abuse.
It's simply lack of circulation due to incomplete motion. Just get one of those hand gripper thingies and squeeze it about 20 times every half hour. Solved.
Mostly random stuff.
My 10 year old Logitech mouse doesn't require any grip or tension. It's wide and flat and has three indentations to rest your fingers in so you don't have to use muscles to hold them in place. It doesn't have a scroll wheel, so your middle finger sits comfortably where it wants to.
...that regular keyboards and mice can cause RSI, so by your new criteria, they should all be pulled off the market until they can be determined by real doctors doing real tests to not *cause* RSI.
... It's called a Logitech TrackMan Marble FX. Keeps the pressure on the outer side of your hand and away from the carpal tunnel. I bought three for ~$50 each back in the day. Last I checked, the were going on eBay for ~$100. Too bad they're discontinued.
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
I remember seeing the first boxy mice and thinking they were funny looking. "What's the use of a keypad with only two buttons on it? What? You're supposed to MOVE it?"
And yes, I did have to walk to school when I was a child. Uphill. Both ways.
forgot to make sure I was logged in before I hit 'post'. oops. :)
:)
so anyways, these "ergonomic devices" are just crutches that don't make the actual problem go away. Sure, having a crutch is better than having nothing at all, but before long you'll become dependant on it, and thusly begins a downward spiral. Better to fix the problem than to continuously treat a symptom (surgery is usually for a symptom, and not a cause).
With that said, anyone want my datahand for $500?
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Hmmm .... "its shape and ability to cup your hand ... can be moved around without bending the wrist or moving the fingers ... keeping the hand in a vertical position and the arm in a more ergonomic neutral position."
Sounds like my zero tension joystick!
What he's claiming is simply that they shouldn't claim that they don't cause RSI unless they can back it up. Truth in advertising.
This is something very different from banning products.
KFG
I can see that this might work for gamers or whatever who just click their whole lives away. For a lot of us (programmers etc), mouse movements are interspersed with keyboard actions, so you need a pointing device that is close to the keyboard. My favourite it the cursor pad, a regular mouse is OK too. For a vertical orientation input device you need to make larger movements and keep rolling your wrist as you move from keyboard to mouse. Can't see this being efficient or easy.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
A person with wrist problems in our office has been using a joystick-like mouse for a long time. It's hard to use for me, and gives me a sore elbow. Maybe I am using it wrong, but after having learned how to protect my wrist using a conventional mouse, I would rather not start over and having to learn to protect my elbow from a new product that doesn't offer any real advantage.
It doesn't move any buttons except the scroll wheel. It looks to me to be very natural.
I went from using a flat keyboard to a MS natural pro, and OMG I love it. I think that RADICAL changes won't work as a business model. But this isn't so extreme.
The reason Vertical keyboards won't work is because people still look at their keys when they type. Soon, a vertical keyboard may be common as the population ages, and everyone who's anyone will know how to touch type.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
How many of thes things have we seen that are supposed to put your hand in a more natural position?
They all end up at Big Lots for $9 after six months...
From the looks of that scroll wheel, it's going to be a banner year for RSI - grab the top of a bottle and roll your thumb straight back and forth over the top like the pictures show for the scroll wheel. If you can do that for more than a minute, you're not put together right.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Yep... that's sounds like a hand position that most slashdotters are quite familiar with! Hmm... I wonder what the inventor was doing when he first got the idea for this mouse?
I bought one of these over a year ago, as part of my tendonitis-triggered moratorium on regular mice. I used it pretty extensively until I got a Kensington Expert Mouse Trackball, which I find gives a better match for my needs while maintaining good ergonomics. I still pack this one with me whenever I'm going somewhere (e.g. campus computer labs) that has nasty mice in it. It's pretty nice in my experience (i.e. it doesn't make my tendonitis go crazy like regular mice), though the motions required are a bit odd in its own way, leaving me to just put my hand on top of it every now and then and use it like a really tall, funkily-buttoned, regular mouse.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
I have severe, very severe, as in on federal disability for 5 years, $1500/month medications, arthritis. The fingers of my right hand are turning to the left (Ulnar deviation), and the base joint of my index finger is basically destroyed (subluxation). I developed 'sausage fingers', where the joints swelled so much and so fast I got stretch marks on my fingers. 4 doctors, one of whom was in a wheelchair determined my arthritis bad enough to make me unable to work. Right now with the medications, I'm working, but with the knowledge that I'm slowly destroying my hands.
I looked at some of the previous ergo mice, and they mostly have the flaw mentioned in the article of having to grip the mouse to push it away (up the screen), I have difficulty with doorknobs, bottlecaps, and steering wheels, gripping is a problem. I also used to work in the Microsoft Hardware (mouse/keyboard) group testing device drivers, where I was working at the time I suddenly developed arthritis (genetic cause, not from work), so I do have some knowledge about pointing devices.
This mouse is basically exactly what the physical therapists described as ideal; hand in the hand-shake position, not needing to bend the wrist, with the arm relaxed. and at $80 it's not bad compared to some ergo devices. It's not a 'quack' device, it's designed to help a real, legitimate medical/work issue. If it's lightweight and Optical (I hate mechanical mice so very very much), I'll buy several. Another few years of work would repay the cost a few thousand times over..
At a press conference introducing the "radical" Microsoft curved mouse, Bill Gates talked about how 7 million dollars was spent just on ergonomics.
Then a reporter asked about the availability of a left-handed version. After a two second pause, the audience was told that it works either way.
You have an inability to count.
Telegraph and wireless operators had similar RSI problems going back, probably at least, to the 1860's. They called it having a "glass arm". The JH Bunnell Double Speed key, also known as a side-swiper, was patented in 1888 to help solve this problem and was sold well into the 1920's when it was replaced by semi-automatic keys known as "bugs" (first patent 1892). The operation of the side-swiper was such that the motion was side to side instead of up and down. There is a contact on either side of the armature or lever so pressing the lever either way made the contact. There was no attempt to automate the dots as the later semi-automatic keys did. You can find example pictures online by searching for "Cootie key" or "side-swiper" key. I have one of the early Bunnell cooties in my telegraph apparatus collection.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
Of course, for us more hardcore hackers, we have the ultimate ergonomic solution: no mouse (I swear GUIs were sent from hell to make us suffer).
If injury is caused due to mouse utilization via the right hand, use the mouse with your left hand for a while. This would give the injury time to heal. This is something I tried a few years back and although there's a bit of a learning curve (I was sloppy and slow at moving the pointer at first) I don't even think about it now. My girlfriend also tried this approach due to tension in her right shoulder.
The other day I tried a standard, rectangular, old school, non-ergonomic keyboard, and I found I could type much faster and more accurately than with my fancy split key thing. Not sure what would happen if I used it for long periods of time, but I might actually try switching back. Perhaps I was suckered by some ergonomic snake oil.
Why did you start using an ergo keyboard?
Personally, I use one all the time and for long coding sessions they are essential for preventing pain in my left wrist. I can type equally quickly on both, but when I use my laptop keyboard the discomfort builds up pretty quickly.
Clear, Dark Skies
--Rob
Towards the Singularity.
I'm really not convinced of this thing's utility. It's assuming that since a neutral "handshake" position puts the least strain on a person's wrist, it must be best to hold it in that position all the time. Joints are made to be used, so it's silly to decide that immobilizing them will solve the problem. I suspect that staying immobile too long is a bad idea. The real problem is, like the acronym says, repetetive *strain*. Learning to use your joints in the way they work best will get you farther than locking them in place.
Guitarists, for example play for long stretches at a time, but most (decent ones) don't end up hurting themselves. Anyone who's played the guitar can tell you that it's not really an ergonomically constructed device. Why don't we hurt ourselves when we twist our wrists backwards and make strange movements very quickly, while office workers manage to destroy their wrists pushing buttons and scooting a mouse around? First of all, musicians practice for hours to figure out how not to hurt their wrists. Second, musicians don't usually play for eight hours straight. My advice to anyone who feels an RSI coming on is to take breaks, but also to examine very closely how you operate these devices. Are you bending your wrist funny to move the mouse, or reaching with a single finger rather than moving your whole hand when typing?
Basically, it's okay to move joints within their range of motion all you like, but every joint has positions in which it can take some stress, and positions in which it can't. Everyone has been told to "always lift with your legs." You need to know similar rules for other joints. You stress a joint whenever you move it out of its safest position then try to exert force through it. For keyboarding, this means reaching with a finger or bending your wrists back then trying to press a key. Keeping your wrists straight and moving your whole hand when you reach for a key is the way to go. Also, making sure never to stretch your hand out when chording is a good idea. Left shift for right hand keys, and vice versa. For mousing, putting your whole hand on the mouse and bending your wrist to move it strains you unduly. A better solution is to hold it with your fingertips and use every joint you can to distribute the action. The fingertips and wrist for fine motion, and the rest of the arm for gross motions. It's also helpful to rotate your hands a little closer to the handshake position, for both mousing and keyboarding.
Of course, some people have already sustained joint damage, and may need to immobilize the joint until it heals. After that, better mousing technique should prevent further trouble, unless you're prone to injury for some other reason.
IANAPT, but I am a guy who types a lot, mouses a lot, and plays a lot of musical instruments, but has never sustained an RSI (except once when I played with a noisemaker for too long). I attribute that to my amazing technique.
The Kensington Expert Trackball is the best thing for RSI in my experience. The large ball and scroll ring allow it to be used in dozens of different had positions which negates the "repetitive stress" part of RSI.
Kensington is also a great company. They honors their five year warrantee for me three years in when I (ab)used the trackball far too much and broke one of the little floater things inside. (Note: It is not a basketball hoop.) Without even any proof of ownership and without me sending mine back, they had me a new one in three days -- All it took was an email.
It is also supported very well on Linux, OS X, and OpenBSD (which are all I've tried with it).
Perhaps the best input device on the market. Get one.
The Microsoft version will obviously be bent but otherwise functional.
IIRC the first such mouse was designed by a Norwegian company. (The mouse looks exactly like the one 3M makes, so I guess they licensed the design.) Anyway, to lend some credit to your excellent observation, I can add that "mouse" in Norwegian is in fact a common slang for the Holy Grail of Objects Unattainable to the Average Slashdot User: the female reproductive organ*. Taking this into account, it's hardly a surprise that it was invented in Norway.
BTW, this gives us the euphemism "ergonomically mousing", which helps relieve some of the strain of the old euphemism "left-handed mousing". Well, I'm off to do some "flight simulatoring" and get to bed**.
* For more info on this topic, see pretty much anywhere on the Internets.
** All quotation marks should be accompanied with air quotation mark gestures, unless you're busy "ergonomically mousing", "left-handed mousing", or "flight simulatoring"** ***.
*** Damn, I managed to make a recursive footnote!
The view was horrible and the smell was even worse; Julie severely regretted becoming a proctologist.
Or you could just periodically switch between a mouse and a track ball.
As the old joke goes...
Patient: "Doctor, Doctor, It hurts when I do this!"
Doctor: "Then don't do that."
From the manufacturer's web site:
(my emphasis)It's always the same: you get these beautifully sculpted mice/trackballs/joysticks and they are only good for right handers.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
I love (loath) companies like this. Sure, they care about the proper ergonomics of computer mice. They want to ensure that the world doesn't succumb to RSI, they love everyone. But, lets not bother making a left-handed model. Hell, only 10 % of peopl are lefties. It sure as hell isn't worth the R&D.
hilarious
That's four
I use the command line, you insensitve clod!
when i first saw the pics I thoughed it was a vibrator :S
I'm surprised nobody brought up the issue of accuracy (or maybe I missed it). Sure all the suggestions about only using keyboards are fine for *nix type people who despise GUI but what about the graphics people? These devices that put the work on your arm rahter than your wrists/fingers are fine for large movements but your arm was never meant for precision. This type of device would be impossible for photoshop etc. Imagine trying to write a letter with a pen and paper without moving your wrists or fingers. (It would probably look the same for me since my handwriting is terrible) Of course there are tablets like the wacom but be prepared to shell out about $200 for a decent one.
You want fun, go home and buy a monkey!
the relationship between workers and their environments
If you have to touch it while you're working, it's "ergonomic" by definition.
Ask for the results of their clinical study. When they can't give them to you, realize that it's cheaper to correct your bad habits than it is to buy their unproven junk. It's a technique that has the added advantage of working ant any computer you sit down at, not just the one with your overpriced peripheral.
Most computer users with a hand or wrist RSI got it doing something other than using their computer anyway. You're more likely to get an RSI through occational screwdriver use than continual keyboard and mouse use assuming you have proper posture.
give me a break. The present story is about yet another input device offered to those suffering from RSI pain. The 'coward' said he bought one of the most expensive input solutions available for treating RSI (currently selling for $647, but previously for $900+). It didn't work for him, and now it's up for sale.
This comment says more about the "RSI Crutch" industry than any of the others.
...can it run linux...oh noes, sorry, standard response doesn't work for this one. Will left handed peeps be able to use it? There are so many mice that leftys just can't feasibly use.
This is just a joystick (think microsoft wingman). Ever tried playing counterstrike with a joystick? It doesn't work. You do not have the same degree of accuracy when your hand is in this position.
Oh and I promise you that using this device takes the strain from your wrists but it puts even more strain on your lower arm. So you are just moving the damage to another bodypart.
Also it doesn't address the support you need for your arm.
It looks like a joystick. Having used a joystick as a mouse replacement when I had an Amiga, I can tell you it is not very practical for aiming and moving.
the manufacturer probably thinks that left-handed people are so unbelievably elite, they never get RSI !
Why make an RSI-mouse for these great people ?
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
This article recommends alternating a mouse between left & right hands to avoid RSI. I'm too entrenched in my mono chirality ways to learn to do that (I'd give my left arm to be ambidexterous). On the other hand, the mouse is intended to relieve RSI, making alternation less of a necessity.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
When I use a mouse, the majority of the pointer movement is controlled by my fingertips. Can anyone out there comment on the fine motor control of the large muscles that would be required to move essentially your entire lower arm around? It looks like it would be a lot of bicep, tricep, and shoulder muscles. Is the device less sensitive, so that larger movements (and less precision) are required? Or can those large muscles be taught the fine control necessary for a pointer device?
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
I can't help but laugh when I see these sorts of funky new mouse designs intended to help people with RSI problems. Why not just get a trackball like Logitech's excellent TrackMan Marble FX? It requires much less desk space than a mouse and you hardly have to move your hand to use it.
This is like going back to the big crayons that you hold in a fist. You completely loose all fine motor control when you have your wrist elevated by these mice. A trackball would be a better solution for RSI sufferers.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
"or those who want to take preventative measures against RSI and related ailments."
You know.. even though due to the fact that millions of morons misuse the word Preventative, and this caused this word to get added to the Webster Dictionary with a comment of "see Preventive" doesn't mean it's a real word.. Next time think to yourself, "am I anal retentative?" and you'll figure out the right spelling of the word.. hopefully...
Try being a little more attentative in class will ya!
---
Democracy is a government where you can say what you think even if you don't think.