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Ruling to Make Reporters Act Like Drug Dealers?

netbuzz writes "A 2-1 New York appeals court ruling yesterday will require two reporters to cough up their telephone records over a property-seizure case unless it gets reversed on appeal. As the dissenting judge noted, this kind of erosion of press protections will have reporters 'contacting sources the way I understand drug dealers do to reach theirs -- by use of clandestine cell phones and meeting in darkened doorways.' It's long past time for a federal shield law."

376 comments

  1. Woah, cool! by avalys · · Score: 4, Funny

    " 'contacting sources the way I understand drug dealers do to reach theirs -- by use of clandestine cell phones and meeting in darkened doorways.'"

    Cool! Just like the movies. Leave it like this, the reporters will have fun.

    --
    This space intentionally left blank.
    1. Re:Woah, cool! by elrous0 · · Score: 1, Insightful
      I guess reporters will have to put down their press releases and actually go do some work for their stories for once.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:Woah, cool! by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Now everyone can be a Deep Throat.

    3. Re:Woah, cool! by LurkerXXX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are kidding right? This ruling just makes it harder for the real reporters, who do call up sources, to do their jobs.

      The lazy-ass reporters who already do nothing but re-write press releases won't change a thing in how they do business.

    4. Re:Woah, cool! by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Cool! Just like the movies. Leave it like this, the reporters will have fun.

      And this becoming a common practice will make it easier to get rid of too disquiet reporters...

      "The use of illegal cell phones is so... unprofessional. Now handle your licence."
      "Well of course he got killed! Don't you see where he has been!."

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    5. Re:Woah, cool! by mpathetiq · · Score: 1, Funny

      Now everyone can be a Deep Throat.

      I've heard it takes a lot of practice (and gagging.)

    6. Re:Woah, cool! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      ""The use of illegal cell phones is so... unprofessional. Now handle your licence."

      You confused me on this one...do you live somewhere where you need a license to either own a cell phone or be a reporter???

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:Woah, cool! by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Not yet. Just wait.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    8. Re:Woah, cool! by eno2001 · · Score: 1

      To add to the Lurker's statement, the reporters will only wind up getting more press releases that are sanctioned by the people who want to spread propaganda as "news". (Look up Fox News sometime for the American/Capitalist version of Pravda)

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    9. Re:Woah, cool! by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem isn't real reporters calling people up and investigation stories to do thier job. It is thier enticment to get someone else to break the law While tring to do thier job. If someone is breaking the law in order for the reporter to profit, there should be no protection in it. In almost everyt other situation, this would be considered conspiracy to commit a crime and in some instances carry a greater penalty then the actual crime in itself.

      Without know who you are or anything else about you, I would bet that your stand would be different if the story was about you parrents death. Imagine reading about it in the paper, then going to thier house to check on them and finding them dead. Then when trying to capture thier muderers, the reporter claims confidentiality. The anonymity of his contact is important. He even fights releasing phone records so the cops can track them down the old fashioned way.

      You might say this is totaly different then whats going on here. I say it isn't. A reporter became aware of impending actions and gave notice to the suspected terrorist organisation or terrorist aiding organizations. These groups were suspected of funding (directly or indirectly) terrorist who are or attempting to kill inocent people. The problem is that someone in a position of law enforcment informed suspects of thier impending fate. They did this to gain favor of some sort or to undermine an investigation that might some day save the lives of some inocent civilians or military personel who joined for a way out of a shitty life.

      Being a reporter shouldn't give them a license to protect criminals. Especialy when that protection is just to gain another breaking lead and give them fame and fortune. I don't understand how anyone could think that a person acting in thier own self interest should be held to such high reguards. If something truely illegal is going on, those doing the leaking would be covered by a wistle blowers policy. If it isn't illegal and the leaker just thinks people should know about deep dark government secretes or that those criminals should have an egde, then they should be prosecuted. I imagine this whole stroy came about because some one in a government position wanted to protect a terrorist organization or worse yet, the reporters offered a reward and they just wanted to profit.

    10. Re:Woah, cool! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Please give link or name of this reporter who aided terrorists, or did you just make this up?

    11. Re:Woah, cool! by LurkerXXX · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I believe a reports should ALWAYS be able to protect their source. No matter what. If a someone killed my parents and told a reporter about it, it would be no different than if they told a priest or their lawyer about it. Neither the priest or lawyer will tell anyone of their admission (the reporter will say someone talked about it, but not reveal their identity, protecting the source), and the lawyer cannot be compelled to by law. The only times they have duty to (and are required by law) is when they have knowledge of intent to do a future bad act, which they can prevent.

      If something truely illegal is going on, those doing the leaking would be covered by a wistle blowers policy.

      If you think retribution isn't VERY often taken out on whistleblowers, even when a law/policy is in place, I have a very large bridge to sell you.

      The press has had a long standing rule of not giving out sources, and for a VERY good reason.

    12. Re:Woah, cool! by sumdumass · · Score: 1
      I know reading the fucking article is something people refuse to do here. Your question is answer in the article though.

      It says, and i will just cut and past,
      "The case arose from a Chicago grand jury's investigation into who told the two reporters, Judith Miller and Philip Shenon, about actions the government was planning to take against two Islamic charities, Holy Land Foundation in Texas and Global Relief Foundation in Illinois. Though the government contended that calls from the reporters tipped off the charities to impending raids and asset seizures, the investigation appears to be focused on identifying the reporters' sources. No testimony has been sought from the reporters, and there has been no indication that their actions are a subject of the investigation."


      Now, if you follow the news outside the we hate bush channels, you will find that both of those organizations were prosecuted for funneling money to terrorist organizations and were labeled a terrorist organization. There has been several people calling them terrorist. If you want to know who some of the terrorist are, you can find a list here

      Of course staying informed about situations going on around you and a quick google search to see the context of the story is helpfull.
    13. Re:Woah, cool! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I couldn't disagree more. If anyone has information that a crime happened and who is responcible, when they attemp to profit from that information, they should lose any or all protections.

      lets spell this out the way it actualy is, someone breaks the law and the reporter profits from this when it is done to give them a story. I see this as no different then you or me breaking the law in order for some corperation to make money. Imagine the bosses at the factory being able to claim confidentiality when some goons attack the union reps durring a strike or contract negotiaion because they wrote about it in the comunity newspapers. Maybe all ballot stuffing politicians could become part time reporters and when thier under investigation, they can refuse to cooperate because thier protecting thier news sources. Or better yet, imagine some one like me going out and commiting crimes so i can give the reporter the scoope knowing he won't be forced to turn me in and i can sit back and profit for the $50 a lead I give him. I guess come can pay.

    14. Re:Woah, cool! by LurkerXXX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And so how, in this fantasy world if yours where reporters are all getting rich for reporting on crime, would someone get a person who might be marginally involved in carrying out a small part of a much larger crime, to inform the public about the much larger crime, and who is carrying it out?

      As I've said before, whistleblower laws very often just don't work. People are either not give the whistleblower status that they deserve, or retribution is carried out by others, or under guise that it's for something else.

      Protecting the source is the only way these things will ever come out. Do you really think it would have been better for the country if Deep Throat had not come forward? If so, there are a lot of totalitarian regimes I'm sure you'd be happy to live under. For myself, I prefer a free press.

    15. Re:Woah, cool! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess in your reality, this part of the story doesn't exist:

      "The move against the charities was not a surprise. No one has ever alleged that any federal agent was hindered or hurt or didn't succeed."

    16. Re:Woah, cool! by temcat · · Score: 1

      In fact this (with cell phones) was the case in Russia till the end of 90s.

    17. Re:Woah, cool! by suitepotato · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Hey man, I'm in a... bad way today... Ya got any releases, any public interest, any sort of op-ed I can score? I'll even take obits or classifieds. Something. You have to help me man, I'm starting to think for myself and I'm considering voting Republican. You gotta get me something. I got money. I'll even pay you to make it up. No, I won't cross you man... Dan Rather who?"

      --
      If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
    18. Re:Woah, cool! by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Informative
      And so how, in this fantasy world if yours where reporters are all getting rich for reporting on crime, would someone get a person who might be marginally involved in carrying out a small part of a much larger crime, to inform the public about the much larger crime, and who is carrying it out?

      I'm not sure i understand your point. You see, if they part of a small crime exposing a larger crime, they will still go down when the larger crime gets investigated. Why would a reporter refusing to tell stop this? But it is more likley, the person involved with the smaller crime will seek protection from prosecution by ratting out the larger crime. Either way, people ither then reporters have been getting this same situation to happen for years. I'm not sure why reporters should have some special consideration in this reguard. But, there is a difference in sam calling up a reporter and saying senator bill is taking bribes from "king i'mgonnakillamericans" and the reporter actualy witnessing or taking part in a crime. This is whats happening here. The reporters took part in a crime for a story wich they could sell and they are claiming you cannot touch us because of freedom of the press.

      In the mid 70's the US supream court said that reporters could be called to testify or required to turn over information on crimes they witnessed. Thats why the apeals court upheld this ruling and it is why the supream court will too. Remember, this case is about some agent of the government illagaly leaking information about an investigation to a reporter and then the reporters informing the subjects of the investigation about impending actions. If they didn't actualy take part in the commision of a crime, they at least directly witnessed one.

      As I've said before, whistleblower laws very often just don't work. People are either not give the whistleblower status that they deserve, or retribution is carried out by others, or under guise that it's for something else.
      and usualy those aren't real wistleblowers. they are disgruntled employees who don't know the whole story. we recently had a story here on slashdot about this. It pointed out exactly whats protected and whats not.

      Protecting the source is the only way these things will ever come out. Do you really think it would have been better for the country if Deep Throat had not come forward? If so, there are a lot of totalitarian regimes I'm sure you'd be happy to live under. For myself, I prefer a free press.
      No, your wrong. investigation and watching for corupt activities will bring this stuff out. Deep throat remaining anonymouse lead the country to jump to the wrong conclusions. Two of the three defendants in the watergate case claim they were looking for evidence of a prostitution scandle while one who is a member of the DNC claims it was about the election. Nixon always protested he was inocent evne after being pardened for any actions related to it. Watergate could verry well be a 60's version of florida 2000. But it is hard to tell. there are more things unanswered about watergate and deepthroat then we actualy have direct conclusion about. We just asume the worse because it fits the image the best. the only proof we have of it going down the way histroy says is one porsons testimoney who may have taken one for the team.
    19. Re:Woah, cool! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      What the hell does that have to do with anything i've said? Wether that part of the story exists or not doesn't change anything. Unless your trying to make the conection that because no one was hurt, the breaking of laws is somehow less severe and shouldn't count now. How about gettign a call saying agents will raid you tomarow, so you take steps to get funds to certain terrorist or even hide evidence. Now got hurt right?

    20. Re:Woah, cool! by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Maybe law enforcement should do their job and investigate crime. Rather than pawing through phone records of innocent people trying to do a service for the community. Reporters are not the enemy, even if most news agencies are ran by douchebags.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    21. Re:Woah, cool! by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      Aaah...excellent point. The reporters ARE the enemy in a fascist state. Surveillance and control are everything. Now, with strong suggestion that the Busheviks want to illegally extend the military tribunal to the citizenry, their aims should be obvious to even the most brain dead among us.

      (That would entail complete loss of the Bill of Rights accorded us: trial in absentia, hearsay as submissible "evidence", and too many other nasty things to contemplate.....be sure to be well armed.)

    22. Re:Woah, cool! by jadavis · · Score: 1

      If the press is protected in the way you describe, that gives criminals all the advantages of anonyminity and none of the disadvantages. If the criminal wanted to speak anonymously, he can do it already via the internet and nobody will believe him. However, if they speak with a credible, "protected" reporter, the reporter can use their credibility to say that they checked their source's facts and have determined the anonymous criminal to be credible. That means that someone can leak a government secret without fear of punishment, and the reporter can make money. The people who lose are the people that secret may have protected, perhaps our armed forces.

      In order to protect the reporters you have to lose any possibility of protecting secrets legally. This extends all the way from that NDA someone signed for a startup to a military secret.

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    23. Re:Woah, cool! by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Yes, France.
      You mean in the US there is no status for professional reporter ? Here they are awarded a "press card" that gives them priviledged rights, most notably the right to not tell justice the source of their articles. This also grants them access to locations usually denied to the public, personalities are more inclined to be interviewed by these people.
      Oh, and of course anyone is free, even without these cards, to write an article, send it to a newspaper and see it published, they are free to start their own newspaper or blog. I thought that some form of "press card" also existed in US. I am surprised this is not the case, how do you sort NYT reporters from bozos from skyblog ?

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    24. Re:Woah, cool! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Well, events will give out press passes to the media...but, that is usually done by the event managers, there is not an official, govt. issued press pass...no, there is no official certification for one to be a 'member of the press'. Everyone here, under freedom of speech, is equally protected (or supposed to be).....the members of the press are just a subset of 'the people'...supposedly, we ALL have those priviledged rights you speak of.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    25. Re:Woah, cool! by laughingcoyote · · Score: 1

      In order to protect the reporters you have to lose any possibility of protecting secrets legally.

      First: GOOD! (Couldn't resist.) In all seriousness though, there are often "grey area" practices, not technically covered by whistleblower laws, but which are clearly questionable ethically. (See secret prisons, NSA wiretapping, so on so on so on.) Quite often, the only way for a person to reveal these and let the public decide if, for example, such a practice SHOULD be illegal, is to leak anonymously. There's way too much secrecy as it is in government and corporate circles, and I sure wouldn't mind seeing it get a little (or a lot) harder for organizations to keep a secret.

      We've got it rather backward: The privacy of an individual should be sacrosanct except upon probable cause and a warrant, but damn near anything a public organization does (and yes, a chartered corporation is a public organization) should be open to the inspection of the public. With those very few things allowed to be kept secret, strict audits should be conducted by those who ARE NOT INVOLVED with the people or processes occurring, and harsh and strict penalties (this means jail time, NOT fines against the corporate bank account or getting demoted a couple ranks in the military) should be in place for cloaking wrongdoing or illegal activity behind the allowed secrecy.

      Secondly, even leaking anonymously can carry significant risks. If you're one of three people that signed the NDA and know that secret, do you think you're not going to be investigated very closely when it ends up on the front page? What about one of ten people in the military who knew the deal on a classified program? Obviously, if these things are any -genuine- kind of secret, there's a pretty small subset of the general population who know the information. If it's a secret worth protecting, and those keeping it are smart, they'll make sure there are a few small parts that only one person or a few know, a watermark if you will.

      However, we -should- protect reporters against having to give away their sources. A press that can't protect a source is not a free press. Their job is not to be a "booby trap" for those who thought they were speaking confidentially only to find out that they really were not, and even one occurrence of that would be enough to have a serious and significant chilling effect.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
  2. The Truth Will Come Out by neonprimetime · · Score: 1

    Good, and now when the phone records are divulged, we'll find out that reporters actually don't talk to anybody. All news is ficticious. Remember the movie Wag the Dog?

    1. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you really think that, what methods do you use to get information about the world?

      The press can suck, no doubt, but they're the best check on government we have in this country. Every law that hinders their ability to do their jobs, is a law that favors closed, tyrannical, government.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Otter · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you really think that, what methods do you use to get information about the world?

      He said it already -- he knows the news is fiction because a fictional movie said so.

    3. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The press can suck, no doubt, but they're the best check on government we have in this country. Every law that hinders their ability to do their jobs, is a law that favors closed, tyrannical, government.


      And this is exactly what they were thinking of when they wrote the First Amendment to the Constitution:

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


      So what I want to know is this: what part of "no law" did the legislatures not understand?
    4. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      This is the 21st century, BTW. They Google like everyone else.

    5. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by WilliamSChips · · Score: 4, Funny

      The "no law" part.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    6. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by jrockway · · Score: 1

      The press can say whatever they want, they're just not allowed to do any research or deviate from the party line!

      Perfectly constutitional, fellow citizen! If you disagree, I will use my freedom of speech to report you to the Department of Homeland Security. :)

      --
      My other car is first.
    7. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by acvh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "what part of "no law" did the legislatures not understand?"

      what part of "Congress shall make no law...." did YOU miss?

      AND - how does requiring a reporter to obey the same laws and judicial orders that I have to obey abridge the freedom of the press. No one in this case is asking for prior restraint on publication or prosecution for publication; apparently a crime is being investigated (and I do believe that tipping off the subject of an investigation, allowing them to destroy evidence, is a crime).

      I am no fan of government, but I am also no fan of knee-jerk responses to complex issues. A reporter for the NY Times is not above the law.

    8. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by schroedogg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So what I want to know is this: what part of "no law" did the legislatures not understand?

      I think you are mistaken in this case. It was not the legislative but the judiciary branch requiring them to cough up phone records. While the legislators are not to be excused, the violations of our constitution today occur far more often in a judiciary that is increasingly acting according to personal opinions rather than to the intent of the law.

    9. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by iocat · · Score: 3, Insightful
      No one can make a law that prevents people from publishing, but there is no right in the First Amendment -- no matter what the NYT's lawyers would like us to think -- that enables a reporter to not reveal sources if ordered to by a court. And if the reporter tips off those sources that they're about to be raided, the reporter may be guilty of a crime, and there's no First Amendment protection against that either. Reporters are not above the law, bottom line.

      --

      Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    10. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Interesting
      what part of "Congress shall make no law...." did YOU miss?


      Maybe you should read the part about the powers of Judiciary. The Judiciary has no power to pass laws. (Judicial orders are another story, of course).

      The problem with rulings like this is that they have a chilling effect on investigative reporting. If you're happy to have reporters cowering in fear of doing any real digging on a story, fine then. But the press is about the only true check we as citizens have on the power of government and if we defang them...well, if you think the Patriot Act is bad, as BTO would say, "You ain't seen nothin' yet."

    11. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The press can suck, no doubt, but they're the best check on government we have in this country. Every law that hinders their ability to do their jobs, is a law that favors closed, tyrannical, government.

      You're assuming the press is doing their job. From what I've seen, the last time they did their job was circa 1980. I believe there is a quote along the lines of "I don't want NBC reporting on Disney. I don't want Disney reporting on Disney." from the CEO of Disney about a decade back. He didn't want NBC reporting any negative publicity on it's parent company.

      The news for the past 20 years has seen itself soley as an entertainment service. They don't care about the truth one bit anymore. They're in the business of selling adds to make money, not to inform the public.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    12. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So what I want to know is this: what part of "no law" did the legislatures not understand?

      There is no part in there that protects anonymous sources.
    13. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom of the press is not an issue here. Please decouple the facts from the liberal media's dying gasps of "intimidation! and "censorship!" The facts are that someone leaked classified information to the press, which is a federal crime. That crime is now under investigation, and the court has ordered the NY Times to cough up phone records which may reveal who committed the crime. So this is really a 4th ammendment issue, not a 1st ammendment issue. And given that it is a crime to leak classified information, and morally reprehensible to do so when it damages the government's ability to snoop on jihadist thugs, the NY Times really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Perhaps they could avoid future problems if they would stop their moral equivocating.

    14. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But they didn't make any laws. They simply stated that reporters are not above the law. Nothing new here, move along please.

    15. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i love the way the press manipulate everything to make a big buck, but i also like the way they expose coverups and fuck ups, atleast they can start using anonet.

    16. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      the judiciary branch requiring them to cough up phone records

      They don't have them already? Apparently these reporters didn't use AT&T.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    17. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You need to draw a distinction between "The Press" and "Television Media".

      There are plenty of newspapers and news websites out there that really try to do a good job, break a lot of ground, and do the sort of reporting that holds the government in check.

      I agreee with you about TV though. God they suck. They ALL suck. I firmly believe that the goddamn Daily Show is the best news on television, and that is so very, very sad.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    18. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by CajunElder · · Score: 1

      Then who provides a check on the press? A shield law for the press isn't a good idea because it gives the press a free ride. If you think there aren't reporters on the right and left that would take advantage of a shield law you are crazy.

      The way it works now, a reporter had better make sure he/she has multiple good sources, and are willing to go to jail if necessary before going forward with a story. Is it perfect? No, but nothing ever is. Is it a good compromise? I think so, and it's one I don't think should be changed.

      --
      A treat to eat, in a puppet that's neat!
    19. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the "no law" part it's the "abridging the freedom of" part that they don't understand. As long as they don't see the law as abridging the freedom of the press they can make it.

    20. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by orielbean · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They've developed as the fourth estate of government. And that means that the other three aren't happy about losing any sort of power to the new guys. So, how does the press balance that out? They bias coverage. They put on the partisans that support their own agendas.

      And so I agree with you - let them work.

      This isn't right or wrong, as they are no different from any other group-in-power who sees a watchdog (even the watchdogs themselves) moving in on their turf and influence. Hearst's Yello Journalism helped to spark sentiment for a war, and Vietnam coverage helped to end it.

      So again, I prefer this to having the old 3 estate system, because the press is a large group and so will offer me a great deal of information than if I just read Congressional transcripts or judicial case reviews all day long. They help me filter info, even as they filter what I receive. This is why blogging is an interesting addidtion to the cacaphony - I can overwhelm myself with different perspectives, and I get to use my judgement.

      I no longer have only channel 4, 5, and 7 telling me 3 possible interpretations - I can choose from 457 people all telling me the relevance of an idea. This is also what history is about. Whereas most actual events or facts are not disputed, their importance to history and the world around them can be endlessly debated. If I get to read 2 histories about America, one from Gore Vidal and one from Simon & Schuster textbooks - then I can decide which interpretation of events had more influence.

      I thought that was what the promise of a free(ish) press was all about. No complaints here. I don't expect them to be completely free of bias just as I don't expect my priest to be completely free of sin. How could they be human otherwise?

    21. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And by what moral right do the courts compel them to testify in the first place?

    22. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by baldass_newbie · · Score: 1

      I believe there is a quote along the lines of "I don't want NBC reporting on Disney. I don't want Disney reporting on Disney." from the CEO of Disney about a decade back. He didn't want NBC reporting any negative publicity on it's parent company.

      FYI...
      ABC is owned by Disney.
      NBC is owned by GE.
      CBS is owned by Westinghouse.

      --
      The opposite of progress is congress
    23. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Pollardito · · Score: 1
      But they didn't make any laws. They simply stated that reporters are not above the law. Nothing new here, move along please.
      a law *was made*, and the law now infringes on the freedom of the press. just because the law didn't infringe on the freedom of the press when it was made, doesn't mean that it can now do so. if the law has to apply equally to the press and its application on the press infringes on the first ammendment, than the law cannot be constitutional.
    24. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by 99bottles · · Score: 1

      The first ammendment assures that laws won't be made that would make it illegal to say that "Mr. Senator is a pain in the ass no good mother fsck'r", not to give someone identifying themselves as a "member of the press" immunity from any prosecution.
      This case deals with illegally leaked information which hindered an investigation by tipping off suspects. I don't see any 1st ammendment implications.

    25. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by MindStalker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So your saying that if I pass a law that says you can't run red lights, and some member of the press runs a redlight in presuit of their story, that law should be stricken from the books.

      Get real, reporters are NOT above the law.

    26. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "The facts are that someone leaked classified information to the press, which is a federal crime."

      Yes, but, the reporting of said leaks, from what I understand, is not illegal...it is freedom of the press.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    27. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      "I am no fan of government, but I am also no fan of knee-jerk responses to complex issues. A reporter for the NY Times is not above the law."

      Unless it's your knee. Do you really believe Slashdot is the first to discuss the issues and nuances surrounding the protection of press freedom? News reporting, before the Feds turned it into info-tainment via media amalgamation, was meant to be a critical component of a free society and specially protected. An unimpeded press was seen as a neccessary public service. Do you also have a problem with the fire deprtment or police having 'extra rights'? Or should only government employees be permitted them?

    28. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by mcmonkey · · Score: 1
      He didn't want NBC reporting any negative publicity on it's parent company.

      Wouldn't that be NBC reporting on the pinheads at G.E.? The network owned by Disney is ABC.

    29. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "I firmly believe that the goddamn Daily Show is the best news on television, and that is so very, very sad."

      I dunno...I've been starting to watch the Colbert Report....I'm starting to lean towards that one for truthiness....

      :-)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    30. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The press should have no greater freedom than anyone else. Rather, we should all enjoy the same freedom reporters do.

    31. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by TheGreek · · Score: 1
      And by what moral right do the courts compel them to testify in the first place?
      And by what moral right do the journalists alone get to decide that their sources deserve to be shielded from legitimate inquiries?

      Legitimate subpoenas issued in legitimate cases should be obeyed. Think the subpoena is illegitimate? Petition to have it quashed.
    32. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Red herring. Running a red light risks the direct injury or death of someone due to collision. Special traffic considerations were, as far as I know, never a special right of the press, whereas anonymous sources generally are held to be. It's worth noting that members of Congress can, in fact, ignore traffic laws while in session and have no fear of detention.

      The ability for reporters to have anonymous sources is well accepted, and often staunchly upheld when it suits those in power. Eliminating that would, indeed, impede or restrict the press oversight of [organization which needs oversight]. It chills the atmosphere surrounding the entire process of investigative reporting.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    33. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      No I am not saying that at all. You don't have to run a red light to get a story. Sometimes however you need to speak to a source who wishs/needs to be anonymous as a reporter. One act is central to reporting and another is not. What really is the case is that no law is above the constition.

    34. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by distilledprodigy · · Score: 1

      All news worth hearing can be heard during the Rush Limbaugh Show.

    35. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by eno2001 · · Score: 1

      Red herring? Now when did fish come into this? I admit the the whole thing stinks like fish, but I think he said "red light".

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    36. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by timeOday · · Score: 1
      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
      what part of "Congress shall make no law...." did YOU miss?
      That is interesting. By your interpretation, it is perfectly legal for (say) a southern state in the bible belt to adopt (say) Southern Baptist as the official state religion, or abolish freedom of the press.

      Is that really what you believe?

    37. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by OakDragon · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The press can say whatever they want, they're just not allowed to do any research or deviate from the party line!

      More true than you know, considering that 80% to 90% of reporters are Democrat.

    38. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by OakDragon · · Score: 1
      But they didn't make any laws. They simply stated that reporters are not above the law. Nothing new here, move along please.
      a law *was made*

      There was no law made here, it was a judicial ruling.

    39. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      This person broke the law in providing the interviewie with information about a confisgation so that person could break the law and avoid it... Just like anyone else who breaks this law she is expected to give up her phone records.

    40. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Then who provides a check on the press?

      _Truth_ provides a check on the press.

      If some journalist comes out with a sensationalist/controversial story, then it behooves other journalists & members of the public to check & double-check the "facts" in that story to see if they can be substantiated. If it turns out that the facts are false or can't be substantiated, then that journalist's credibility will be significantly reduced (ala Dan Rather).

      About the only valid reasons to prevent a journalist from publishing a story is to stop them from disseminating info on how to kill large #s of people (instructions on building WMDs for instance), to protect undercover intelligence resources, or to protect short-term military objectives. (Let me know if you can think of any other valid reason not in this list.)

      Any other attempt to stifle the press is more likely to protect the government/agents of the government rather than serving the public good, and should not be allowed by any agent of any branch of the government.

    41. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Intron · · Score: 1, Funny

      Not surprisingly, 80 to 90% of Media Research Center's staff is Republican.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    42. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by nizo · · Score: 1

      Techincally they are just ignoring one little word: "no". They seem to have no problem with the law part.

    43. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by houghi · · Score: 1
      they're the best check on government we have in this country


      That is a scary thought. An extremely scary thought. Unfortunatly that is exactly what happens. No check on the governement and they can do anything they like.
      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    44. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1
      The problem with rulings like this is that they have a chilling effect on investigative reporting. If you're happy to have reporters cowering in fear of doing any real digging on a story, fine then. But the press is about the only true check we as citizens have on the power of government and if we defang them...well, if you think the Patriot Act is bad, as BTO would say, "You ain't seen nothin' yet.

      There's a false dichotomy if I ever saw one. Requiring reporters to follow the same laws that the rest of us do does not lead to a police state. Journalists aren't supermen, they don't get diplomatic immunity. Why should some reporter have extra rights compared to a regular guy simply because of his job? the 1st Amendment says no restriction of speech OR press. I can talk - why don't I get equal protection? Speaking of "equal protection," giving reporters some sort of immunity would break that, and that would be unconstitutional.

      In other words: write what you want. But if you want to use that as an excuse to break laws that I would get thrown in jail for, don't expect kid glove treatment.

    45. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, they understand the *law* part just fine.

      It's the "no" that they have troubles with...

    46. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      Then why can they understand "no" when combined with other words like "games"?

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    47. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Daily Show? Hardly. The host once said (and I paraphrase) -- I'm so in love with John Kerry that I have my nose so far up his ass I know what he had for breakfast. So much for news.

    48. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Really? >>> http://www.rcfp.org/privilege/index.html

      Simply another 100% incorrect, disengenuous, bullshit post moderated +5 by the depressingly thick Slashdot crowd too lazy to expend seconds Googling a topic. If it feels good it must be right, right? Play reporter for a day and investigate reality. You might find the change refreshing and your republic will be the better for it... hey, is Futurama on !!?!?

    49. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      No,running red lights is trivial compared to tipping off subjects of an investigation. What he is saying is that if murder is illagal, and I murder someone in the act of geeting a story, then i cannot be procecuted for that law i broke. You would still be subject to that law but as a reporter in search for a story, i wouldn't.

    50. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Holy red herring batman.

      How does giving a reporter a ticket impinge on freedom of the press? Stuff getting in the way of a story is so amazingly commonplace in the news industry, you can't even imagine. Sometimes you'll get situations where reporters know the story for months or years before they can get enough people willing to confirm it on the record, for it to be printed. By your logic, it'd be lawful for them to torture people until they confirmed the story, because they have some kind of right to it.

      On the other hand, by forcing them to divulge all sources of information whenever there is a suspicion of wrong doing, you're basically making it impossible to have anonymous sources. Now, I've got less problem with this for TV, because I always get the feeling that when they say "anonymous sources" they mean "some hobo I was talking to when I was snorking coke in the bathroom", but when you look at a story like the Watergate story, where the whole thing was broken by an anonymous source, and confirmed by non-anonymous sources, you have to think that story would never have been broken if the government had the right to subpoena phone records, and use illegal wiretaps to determine the identity of the source.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    51. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by blugu64 · · Score: 1

      Ahhh!!

      It's that states rights debate again!

      --
      "Personal ownership is a hallmark of conservative capitalism. And I don't believe I am entitled to anything that I did n
    52. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      But she didn't just know about the criminal activity she HELPED them by tipping them off.

      This is such a huge difference.

    53. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Many reporters have spent time in jail for contempt because they refused to give up informants identities. This anonymity of the source is somethign relettivly new too. It didn't become some bastion of the only way the press will work until the 60's or so. And yes, the guy from watergate spent quite a bit of time behind bars. More recently, other reporters have done the same.

      As for congressmen, it actualy says they cannot be held for anything when congress is in session. the idea was so that people couln't make up violations to keep a congressman away from a vote they didn't favior. The idea that the press is able to protect and even encourage law breakers as part of some consitutional foundation is absurd. there are plenty of ways a person can reveal something without giving thier identity as well as without breaking a law. One can photocopy ducuments and accidently slip them into another envelope with press releases then drop it into a mailbox across town. One can also hit a payphone, give a wrong name then proceed to tell the information.

      The problem here is that this didn't happen. Someone with an interest in tipping an organization associated with terrorism off about an impending action contacted a reporter who in turn informed the terrorist. This isn't news reporting in the least. It is a law enforcment agent working against the laws and government they were hired to protect and using the cloak of informant anonimity to enact thier plan. Now, we have people like you outraged that something might be done about this law enforcment agent or the reporters for tipping the terrorist off that they might be raided. This is worse then Bush listening to phone calls made to or from known terrorist while in the united states. On one hand we have a citizen contacting terrorist while on the other we have government agents contacting terrorist both trying to remain protected by laws or understood laws that were never enacted. It really surprises me when i see how many people stand up for shit like that. We have to protect double agents, spyes, terrorist at all cost!

    54. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      If that can be proven, that's one thing, but I find the accusation of it to be shady. What cop in his right mind tells a reporter that they're going to be raiding someone? That makes no sense at all.

      In my experience, a cop won't tell you that there's a fire at the police station if you're both standing there with marshmellows, watching it burn, and if they did tell a reporter, or any other private citizen, it should be the fault of the officer who improperly leaked the information to the public, not the fault of the public for dealing with the information afterward. Not that I don't find Judith Miller to be appalling...Passing information like this to the target of a police investigation is completely plausible when you know she is the one accused.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    55. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Bob+Uhl · · Score: 1
      How do shield laws figure into 'freedom of the press'? It's a long standing principle that save for very well-defined circumstances anyone within a jurisdiction may be compelled to testify. If I see a crime happen, I am forbidden to refuse to testify (save in those well-defined circumstances); if a reporter sees that crime happen, he's just as bound to do so as I am. Freedom of the press is about being free to publish; it's not about being free from compelled testimony. You might argue that such a freedom is important (I disagree), but if so at least get your argument straight.

      You may also wish to consider the case of a defendant subpoenaing (sp) a journalist with information to exonerate him--should the journalist be compelled to testify?

    56. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      In the 70's the supream court said a reporter might be required to testify or give information about crimes they witnessed. If reporting it isn't illegasl but making the leak is, then the person the leak was to might have testify or offer supporting evidence.

    57. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Moridin42 · · Score: 1

      If you want to speak technically, Congress didn't make this law or pass this judgement.

      But more to the point, laws restricting freedoms can be passed and upheld when a case for public benefit is articulated.

      We regulate both speech and the press with laws against libel and slander. We regulate firearms ownership and carry with background checks and licenses. We regulate what constitutes an unreasonable search and seizure. I'd wager that innocents find any searches unreasonable. Criminals doubly so. Yet we discard those notions of unreasonable and delcare that law enforcment, with 'reasonable suspicion' or 'probable cause' may, in fact, search.

      If I, as a regular citizen, pick up some information vital to a case, I can be compelled to testify. But if I, as a reporter, pick up the same information vital to a case, I can profit off my knowledge without harming (possibly even helping) the criminals. So I get to make money, you get to read about it a few days earlier, and the criminals get to keep on victimizing people.

      If law enforcement can make a case, regardless of what the reporter does, then I have a sneaking suspicion that the reporter won't be called to testify and a theoretical shield law wouldn't be in play. Only when law enforcement is hindered by a reporter would they be in play, and I'm not quite so certain I can support a reporter in that situation. I'm not overly fond of police, especially given the news of their recent excesses. However, given the diminishing legal authority for me to defend myself from criminals, police are fairly necessary. Even if they've no legal duty to protect you or I, as individuals.

      Lastly, I will say that I would happily protect a reporter's freedom if they broke a law in order to expose criminal activity by those in power in order to force a redress. There's a compelling public benefit, protection from a corrupt government. But hindering law enforcement so the reporter can make a buck? What's the compelling reason? So that John Doe, Steve Schmoe, and Joe Blow get to read about it earlier. Whoopee.

      --
      I don't expect morality, equality, consistency, or justice from the law. I expect only legality.
    58. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I think reporters should be allowed to employ torture for information. It's all the same in your mind, right? Has every Slashdoter older than 14 moved elsewhere? Is this the level of reasoning considered 'insightful' now? Use your fucking brains and consider two simple concepts drawn from what we here in the outside world call 'reality':

      - considerations in law are made all the time
      - giving reporters protection from being forced to reveal sources isn't equal to handing them a license to kill at will (general concept: more colours than black and white)

        It's about the requirements of a healthy society. Permitting reporters to protect sources assures the information we need to function makes it into circulation. It's for us, that's what we get back. It's not that big a sacrifice. The fact that you don't get to 'run red lights' or some other puerile equivalancy is as relevant as the one where you shouldn't screw your mom because dad does. It's not about you. You are not in that part of the equation. Does that register at all you solipsistic, self-absorbed, bent on destruction, sub-40 IQ fucks?

    59. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..."decouple the facts from the liberal media's dying gasps of "intimidation! and "censorship!""

      Thanks for that, Bob. Leaking information for party gains (see Plame Affair as well) is the way it should be done. Party before Country people, good work. Those who live outside the good old USA appreciate every effort you make to better our global position. Libtards & Bushbots: rip yourselves up. Win win win.

    60. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by sgt_doom · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      No, they are clearly misinterpreting the existing law, which is the major problem with the courts today, be it the mostly bizarre decisions handed down by our present Supreme Court, or the many, but not all, monkey-staffed federal courts.

      Example: the recent appointment of Kavanaugh to the federal bench to preclude a guilty verdict against Cheney or Rove should either be indicted. (Which is clearly not going to happen since Fitzgerald has obviously been turned....)

    61. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Society needs more of your mettle holding fast to their convictions. Should you ever require emergency ambulance service, insist the driver obey the speed limit and stop for all lights. Likewise firemen, permit no property damage without prior written contractual agreement allowing them to jaw your car or axe a door. Gain comfort in the knowledge that I, and no doubt many others here, support your fight against special priveledge 100%.

    62. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So your saying that if I pass a law that says you can't run red lights, and some member of the press runs a redlight in presuit of their story, that law should be stricken from the books.

      Get real, reporters are NOT above the law.


      If there in pursuit of the truth that benefits the public in a profound way, yes they should not be subject to that law under those circumstances, besides who does that law serve the most? The people in power or the public?, get a reality check.

    63. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      But whos decision is it that they are benefiting the public. I mean I can see reasons to look the other way.

      Lets say a reporter was selling fake drugs to do a report on drug dealing. Yes its illigal to sell fake drugs, and he/she should be told so, but I can imagine a police officer letting something like that slide.

      Lets say a reporter sells real drugs.

      Lets say a reporter goes along during a bank robbery.

      There has to be a line there. In the past our society had a common sense to look the other way sometimes, but you just can't give someone a blank check because "they are benefiting the public in a profound way". Bullocks.

    64. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      You are correct on both counts, and there is useful reason for the way things are in both cases. As the government takes more power, more protections are needed for those who police them.

      As for the "informants," - why bother to go to the papers to launder the information, unless they wanted it to be public. Ignoring the guilt or innocence of the organizations raided, someone thought the action was unwarranted and wanted it to see the light of day. If they just wanted to inform the right folks, all they needed was a payphone or a prepaid cell. Seems like an awful lot of crossed fingers to assume that the information would make it to the right people in the proper amount of time.

      Oh, and as for you, Sen. McCarthy, what makes a terrorist? Is it the organization who plants the bombs, makes the bombs, trains the people, or funds the operation? According to the US public service announcements of (last year?)*, the people who are at fault are the ones who buy the products that make the money that trains the people who build the bombs so that they can be planted. And that, Mr. Senator, would be everyone who purchases gasoline. I suggest you grab a mirror before you start calling anyone else a terrortist.

      *Okay, so techically it was targetted at drug users, but the analogy is pretty direct to oil-funded terrorism. Without that money, the end organization starves.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    65. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by ArtStone · · Score: 1

      Since NBC purchased Telemundo, can we trust NBC to report objectively on illegal immigration through the porous Mexican border?

      --
      Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0
    66. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Yes its illigal to sell fake drugs"

      Not sure what you mean by 'fake drugs,' but if I stood on a street corner looking suspicious and selling baggies of flour, what law would I be breaking? Business without a license? Possession of baking materiel with intent to distribute?

    67. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      No seriously, its illigal to sell fake drugs. Hell its illigal to pretend something is a drug. There has been several cases in the past of children being oregeno to school pretending its pot, not only do they get in trouble with the school but sometime they have been arrested and charged.

    68. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lookup "misrepresenting a non-controlled substance as a controlled substance".

      Its a crime in most places.

    69. Re:The Truth Will Come Out by andrewman327 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Reporters are complaining about the fact that there is no law being enacted at the national level. This structural gap is not in violation of the Bill of Rights!

      --
      Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
  3. free press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A free press is bad, mmkay?

  4. Ooooohhhhh..... by z-kungfu · · Score: 1

    they get to do super secret spy stuff... now I want to be a reporter...

    1. Re:Ooooohhhhh..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      they get to do super secret spy stuff... now I want to be a reporter...


      Just wait for their next move on a road to tyranny and the feeling will go away. Or be prepared to repeat the official news. Lonely wolves will be shot.

  5. Well, they are alike by RagingFuryBlack · · Score: 1

    Both are always calling some shady source to get information. One is looking to kill someone and bury them in a dark place, the other is looking to bury someone in a spotlight.

    --
    Warning: Corny karma killing post above.
  6. A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Ray+Yang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who gets shielded and who doesn't? Is a New York Times reporter automatically better than a blogger? What about a press flack? The 1st Amendment is for *everybody*, not just reporters. The idea of creating supercitizens with special rights doesn't sit well with me. If your problem is with the way the government can invade our privacy, propose new rules for government behavior that don't trample on the ideal of equality before the law.

    1. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only reason a NYT reporter gets more consideration than some random blogger, is because the NYT reporter has a team of specialist lawyers funded by a large news organization behind them.

      It's the same as any other setup where you've got a regular citizen compared to a regular citizen with financially unlimited legal backing. If you've got a problem with that, blame the legal system that is swayed by wealth.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Insightful
      > Who gets shielded and who doesn't?

      Exactly. Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

      For starters, who's going to draft a Federal Shield Law? Politicians. And who's going to enforce it? Cops. And it's an election year.

      What goes into the sausage grinder as "Reporters should be shielded" comes out as "Congressmen's offices are shielded from search by police." (With a rider attached to the effect that because many federal agents (US Marshals, SS, FBI to name a few) carry badges shaped like shields, such officers shall be shielded from investigation by non-shieldbearers.

      (Yeah, I should really shut up and stop giving them ideas.)

    3. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by DesireCampbell · · Score: 1
      (Yeah, I should really shut up and stop giving them ideas.)
      At least you didn't have to explain that shields are 'not dump-trucks, but a series of tubes'.
      --
      Whoo, signature!
      DesireCampbell.com
    4. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      because many federal agents (US Marshals, SS, FBI to name a few)


      So the SS is alive and well and operating in the US? How does that not surprise me? :)
    5. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by aztec+rain+god · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Moreover, why should we have to trust the government to administer a system for licensing and bonding of journalists? Short of having such a system, we are left with the current working definition of "journalist", which is anyone who says they are a journalist. For that, we already have a shield law: the first amendment. It would be nice if it were enforced.

      --
      Sig cannot be found.
    6. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by darkhadden · · Score: 1

      "supercitizens with special rights"

      Cops, anyone? Politicians?? Presidents???

      --
      All the world's a stage, all the people but players.
    7. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by jmorris42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > The 1st Amendment is for *everybody*, not just reporters.

      Preach it! Reporters are Citizens, same as thee and me. Any other setup requires some government agency licensing reporters and "Press" organizations and anyone who doesn't think that is a bigger perversion of the idea embodied in the 1st Amendment than McCain Fiengold ain't on the same planet I'm sitting on.

      No, reporters are Citizens, just like us 'little people in flyover country' and they are subject to the same laws as we are. If I tipped off a terrorist organization that the feds were about to sieze their assets I'd be in a "Pound me in the Ass Federal Prison" now. Which is exactly where the NYT reporters should be. Whether they should have their phone records seized is a no brainer and in a sane world they would be heaving a huge sigh of relief that was all that was happening to them.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    8. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Who gets shielded and who doesn't? Is a New York Times reporter automatically better than a blogger? What about a press flack? The 1st Amendment is for *everybody*, not just reporters.

      The First Amendment is silent on the issues a shield law would cover. All it guarantees is that the Goverment cannot prevent you from publishing something - though it has been interpreted more widely than that. (And myself, I prefer to rely on legislative law rather than case law.)
       
       
      The idea of creating supercitizens with special rights doesn't sit well with me.
      We already have a variety of classes of supercitizens. Virtually every minority for example. Whistle blowers, at least temporarily, move into a supercitizen type class. Etc... Etc..
       
       
      If your problem is with the way the government can invade our privacy, propose new rules for government behavior that don't trample on the ideal of equality before the law.

      There is, from a societal point of view, a grave difference between the Goverment collecting the phone records of a private citizen, and the Goverment attempting to interfere with the function of the Fourth Estate - as such interference strikes at the heart of the checks and balances built into our system. (Though admittedly, said Estate has not exercised it's powers with any great deal of responsibility of late.) Also, laws *are* limits on Goverment behavior.
       
      Lastly, as I point out above - equality under the law is already well on it's way to becoming a joke in the US.
    9. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      ...blame the legal system that is swayed by wealth.

      Built and sustained by voters even more swayed by promised wealth. If you improperly install a piece of plumbing and it pops loose, what are you going to blame? The pipe? Only you and your neighbors can resolve this. Don't look for some outside savior. But don't blame people who are only following the voters' wishes, especially when the voters constantly re-elect them. If all politics is local, then make sure the politician's influence remains local. Don't give them so much power. If you don't watch over them, they will crap all over your carpet. So put 'em outside, and more importantly, keep them on a leash. I don't want them crapping on my lawn.

      --
      What?
    10. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whether they should have their phone records seized is a no brainer and in a sane world they would be heaving a huge sigh of relief that was all that was happening to them.

      Really, dumbass? Ever stop to think that ALL the records includes other contacts for other stories, which may have nothing to do with this grand jury investigation?

      No of course not, because as long as your catching a terrorist, it doesn't matter what happens to people's rights.

    11. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Kohath · · Score: 1

      That is an important point.

      The Constitution guarentees the right to freedom of the press. That's a right The People have, not a right The Press has (except that they are also part of The People).

    12. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The First Amendment is silent on the issues a shield law would cover. All it guarantees is that the Goverment cannot prevent you from publishing something - though it has been interpreted more widely than that.

      Really? I saw 'freedom of the press shall not be abbridged.' It didn't say anything about it only covering your ability to print something. "The press" pretty clearly referes to journalists, and forcing phone records out of them seems to abridge their freedom to do their job effectively. After all, if the government can get any journalists phone records, who would talk to them?

    13. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by JWtW · · Score: 1

      Actually, the U.S. Secret Service is very much alive in the U.S.. But I think their job is a little different than you think.

    14. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by mypalmike · · Score: 1

      Bloggers get special PMITA treatment.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/us/02protest.htm l

      First paragraph:
      Blogger Jailed After Defying Court Orders

      By JESSE McKINLEY Published: August 2, 2006

      SAN FRANCISCO, Aug. 1 -- A freelance journalist and blogger was jailed on Tuesday after refusing to turn over video he took at an anticapitalist protest here last summer and after refusing to testify before a grand jury looking into accusations that crimes were committed at the protest.

      --
      There are 0x40000000 types of people: those who understand 32-bit IEEE 754 floating point, and those who don't.
    15. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by EL_mal0 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The only reason a NYT reporter gets more consideration than some random blogger, is because the NYT reporter has a team of specialist lawyers funded by a large news organization behind them.

      Not true. I think the main reason that the NYT reporters get more consideration is that they are percieved as a reliable news source. The traditional news outlets have established credibility. Bloggers have yet to earn that.

      Many (most?) reporters for big news outlets have degrees in journalism/communications where they were taught to research their stories and not rely on single sources and other sound journalistic practices. I'm not saying that they do any research, but they were taught to research their stories.

      Anyone who spews thoughts onto the internet can be classified as a blogger. I don't think this does not give them protection under the freedom of the press. Freedom of speech, sure, but not necessarily protection under freedom of press.

      I am not sure where do draw the line of what qualifies as a news outlet, but I think there should be some standards to which "members of the press" are held.

    16. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why do research when you can cut n paste from AP, Reuters, or just make stuff up? IMHO, newspapers, current events magazines, etc. should have to supply footnotes for each story.

    17. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      The First Amendment is silent on the issues a shield law would cover. All it guarantees is that the Goverment cannot prevent you from publishing something - though it has been interpreted more widely than that.

      Really? I saw 'freedom of the press shall not be abbridged.' It didn't say anything about it only covering your ability to print something. "The press" pretty clearly referes to journalists

      That's because you are attempting to retcon a fairly modern meaning in place of a historical meaning (usage). (In some ways the Constitution is written in a what is now a foreign language.)
       
      In the 1870's 'press' was a noun and largely used to describe a physical object. 'Freedom of the press' meant the freedom to use that object to produce speech - in the form of printed material. Usage of the word 'press' to describe to profession of journalist or reporter comes about much later, the profession didn't even clearly exist at the time the Constitution was written. The Founding Fathers assumed that citizen-publishers would continue to fill the niche, today occupied by the Press, of presenting news (and opinion) to their fellow citizens. (Indeed at that time, the essay or opinion piece - written to educate, inform, and convince was considered the highest form of what we would today call 'journalism'. There's a reason why the authors of The Federalist Papers chose that literary device.)
       
      Additionally, 'Freedom of' was a legal phrase with a specific meaning and interpretation - whose usage is largely redundant and meaningless today. That phrase meant (roughly) 'without let or hindrance, absent of restrictions save those provided by law and custom'. There is no implication of unlimited license or franchise as is commonly believed today. (Hence the famous quote - "Freedom of speech does not include the right to shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre'.)
       
      Hence the need, today, for a more specific shield law to protect journalists. (Keep in mind that the Constitution is a very 'high level specification' - we have been writing laws to implement those specifications since the ink was barely dry on the specification itself.)
    18. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Elemenope · · Score: 1

      It's pretty clear (not least from the number of absolutely shitty papers there were in Revolutionary times which would make the National Enquirer look like the Washington Post) that there was no decision making intended or involved in the protection: you put your opinions into text and publish them using a printing press (and they aren't libel) and you are A 'OK. We've moved away from plain-text, common sense readings of the Constitution for a while now (some for good reasons, some definately not), and so we end up in a world today where the freedom to use a printing press means something very different (and far narrower) than what was originally intended.

      --
      All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
    19. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Moofie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Freedom of the Press was not intended to have some chartered entity called "The Press" who was Free. The intent was to have every person (note: not every citizen, every PERSON) Free to do as they will, both in Speech and using the Press.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    20. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      You forgot actors and professional sports players.

    21. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by EL_mal0 · · Score: 1

      Very good point. In the context you bring up here, the "problem" is that it is just so easy to get your views out there these days. As a result, there's a lot more crap out there claiming to be news than there was back in the day when you had to have access to an actual press to publish news and ideas*.

      I guess in my mind there's a difference between freedom of speech and freedom of the press today. All speech (supposing there it isn't libel, etc.) is protected, but in my view, if you claim protection under free press you imply something about the integrity of your information. It comes down to whether or not you claim to be a member of the press in the modern sense; are you claiming to be a news organization? If so, there should be some standard so the readers can determine the integrity of the information. The suggestion to put footnotes in news stories, as mentioned by the AC in response to my original post would be a welcome start. . . Might be overkill, too.

      * On a bit of a tangent, "news" outlets these days have gotten news and ideas confused, sometimes making the frontpage appear awfuly similar to the opinions page. Fox News had the right idea with "We report, you decide". Too bad they didn't keep to the spirit of that little bit of marketing.

    22. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "...reporters for big news outlets have degrees in journalism/communications...other sound journalistic practices....Anyone who spews thoughts onto the internet can be classified as a blogger. I don't think this does not give them....protection under the freedom of the press....there should be some standards to which "members of the press" are held."

      Hmm...are you saying there should be a licensed reporter? That no one can report news unless they have special training, and are licensed? Wow...I could see very well how a govt. could manipulate the press that way (Ok, you don't get a license if you don't think right/Your license is revoked because your report was uncomplementary to the administrations policy).

      No...that sounds dangerous to me. There are no requirements for any citizen to report the news, that same freedom of speech applies to all people of which reporters are just a subclass. And while I might give credence (sp?) to more organized new services, you cannot depend on them alone, wasn't it the NYT just a year or two ago that had one of its top reporters making up the news...and it took quite awhile for them to find it out and fire him.

      No...I'd rather let anyone report the news, have the freedome to do so, so that I can listen to all viewpoints, and make up my own mind on what is the "truth".

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    23. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by CaptDeuce · · Score: 1
      For starters, who's going to draft a Federal Shield Law? Politicians.

      We could try to get the RIAA or MPAA to write it but I doubt they're interested.

      And who's going to enforce it? Cops. And it's an election year.

      Uh... no. This type of law would prevent prosectuters -- District Attorneys or DAs for you CSI types -- from even attempting to get their hands on information on reporters sources. Also, judges will not be able to cite reporters who refuse to divulge such information with contempt and throw them in jail.

      Cops don't even enter the picture.

      At the very least, a Federal Shield Law would (attempt to) clearly indicate how and when reporters may or may not withhold the identity of their sources. I say "attempt to" because any provisions of the law will themselves be subject to clarification by the Supreme Court. By design, this is how the US legal system works.

      --
      "Where's my other sock?" - A. Einstein
    24. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by darkhadden · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah! Well, I thought it was common knowledge that Mel Gibson is responsible for all the wars in the world!

      --
      All the world's a stage, all the people but players.
    25. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by EL_mal0 · · Score: 1

      Nice use of selective quoting.

      I didn't say that there should be a govt. license for members of the news media, and I certainly didn't say that we should only get our news from established sources and ignore independent sources. I was talking about a percieved (and usually merited) quality of information that comes from established/traditional news sources.

      But as I mentioned in another post, any claim to be reporting news implies a certain integrity to your information. Having to have a license to report is a silly idea; you're right. What about some independent accrediting institution that researches the track record of a news outlet? I'm not sure this would work, either, but it might.

      Like I said in the GP, I am not sure where to draw the line, but if you're claiming to report news, then people should reasonably expect that what you say is true, that what you say is news. I think some set of ethical standard, adhered to by bloggers and NYT reporters alike, would be a great service to news consumers.

      See the Mr. X episode of the Simpsons for the good and bad sides of blogs as news sources.

    26. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Alchemar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have a few minor problems with your logic. Is this a terroist organization or a suspected terroist organization? I would be very worried if it became a crime to tell someone that was a suspect of a crime that they are a suspect of a crime. As your statement stands, it gives the goverment the right to sieze the phone records of anyone suspected of talking to a suspect in order to finds out who the suspect is. If they don't know who you were talking to, how can they get enough proof that you were talking to someone that is a suspect to get a warrent. This argument should not be about Freedom of Press, but about innocent until proven guilty, No search and siezure of papers or effects, and guilt by suspected association.

    27. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Descalzo · · Score: 1

      I hear Fox News slammed like that quite often, but the only time I've ever heard anyone back it up was Al Franken. Don't get me started on Al Franken.

      --
      I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
    28. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by eno2001 · · Score: 1
      OK, how does THIS sit with you:


      The fatcats are ALWAYS looking for ways to fuck your ass raw. Seeing that it's an election year, they've ordered more lube and speculums to go longer, deeper and harder than the previous election year.


      See this for more details.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    29. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by nizo · · Score: 1
      ...how does THIS sit with you...


      Ouch; I may never be able to sit again after reading your post.

    30. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > I would be very worried if it became a crime to tell someone that was a suspect of a crime that
      > they are a suspect of a crime.

      Put down the crackpipe dude. Have you ever heard of a little concept called "Obstruction of Justice?" It's what ended up taking out Tricky Dick Nixon.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    31. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Dumbass, your own damn self. When a mafioso has his records siezed, or a corrupt business, or a terrorist, or a friggin' reporter, they sieze all records because you can't tell what is useful until you look at them. So, unless you have some magic ball (or the bad guys nicely stamp what is what and put into color coded envelops), you have to sieze it all. Tuff, don't commit a felony.

    32. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by plantman-the-womb-st · · Score: 1

      Every other year is an election year.

      And they are always trying to screw us.

      What's your solution, should we just sit here and take it?

      --
      Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
    33. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Put down the crackpipe dude.

      Oh, you are such an ineffably hip cat, dawg. Your so-90s language says it all. You're really just a fucking powerless pussy

      Not to menion the "obstruction" thing has just become nothing more than a hammer to get citizens to give up their fifth amendment rights under threat of a minimum seven year sentence without even waiting for a lawyer to show up. Grasping bastard cops.

    34. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The first ammendment is designed to protect your ability to say things. It says nothing about your ability not to say things. other ammendments have things to say about that domain.

      It is more important for criminals to be caught and tried than it is for sensationalists to be able to write about the criminals' exploits.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    35. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Dausha · · Score: 1

      "The intent was to have every person (note: not every citizen, every PERSON) Free to do as they will, both in Speech and using the Press."

      Sorry, but I doubt that was the intent. I believe the intent was to give each citizen the right to express opposition to his government. The Founders were not as liberated as you would have us believe. Slaves were not given freedom of the press.

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    36. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Moofie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There was a great deal of debate about whether or not slaves were Persons. Obviously, the wrong side won that debate, which took way too long to fix.

      However, the Constitution clearly does not confer rights on citizens. It protects the natural (inalienable) rights of persons.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    37. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by Dausha · · Score: 1

      "Really? I saw 'freedom of the press shall not be abbridged.' It didn't say anything about it only covering your ability to print something. 'The press' pretty clearly referes to journalists, and forcing phone records out of them seems to abridge their freedom to do their job effectively. After all, if the government can get any journalists phone records, who would talk to them?"

      "Press" does not refer to journalists. "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press."[1] Speech means your ability to stand out in public and criticize your government. Press means the same thing in print. So, a letter written to your Aunt Flo saying "Bush is a ninny" could not be silenced by Congress any more than a letter to the editor. While you're pointing out the "clear meaning" of the Constitution, how about the fact that the First Amendment only applies to Congress? Therefore, states are free to shut you up at will. I know that this has been extended to states via the 14th Amendment by the Courts, but that's not clear in the clear meaning of that amendment, either.

      Of course, while going on about how press applies to journalists, how about the next amendment? ". . . [T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Pretty clear to me. Load me up, Brother.

      [1]: U.S. Const. Amend. I.
      [2]: U.S. Const. Amend. II.

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    38. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by faolan_devyn_aodfin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Government does not regulate one's rights and no matter what anyone says or does can change that. Indeed, Government create that perception through many means including punnishing those who demand, execute, or support those Rights. This is because these Rights are sacred and are inherited by every person from the greatest of Divinties. For a Government to infringe on one's liberties is a sin greater than murder because it leads to forcing it's citizens to live lives worse than death, for those who are not executed or tortured by the government it is a life of constant fear. Verily, just as no sane man would never vernture to wish such a fate upon his brethren that no just Government ever create such bleak dystopiæ.

      Goverment has a duty to both protect its citizens and to submit to them in service. For a Goverment to remove the very Rights which all are born with is a stark violation of being a service to its citizens. Such a goverment should never be tolerated and as such should be removed by its citizens. Those who submit to a tyranic Goverment may live, but to those who wish to be free--those who desire those most the Divine inheretance--false security is not worth the the risks involved in losing their liberties.

      I believe a great patriot once said: "Live free or die." But to the free spirit Tyranny is death.
      Blessed be.

      --
      Pagan? Geek? Check out #paganism on Freenode IRC
    39. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Ya, no shit stupid. That doesn't change the fact that seizing the records of a journalist CAN blow the cover for someone unrelated to the investigation which siezed the records. That's exactly why they shouldn't sieze ANY of the records of the journalist.

      Your comments about a mofioso, business or terrorist are totally irrelevent here, since they are NOT JOURNALISTS.

    40. Re:A Shield Law is a Stupid Idea by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      While you're pointing out the "clear meaning" of the Constitution, how about the fact that the First Amendment only applies to Congress? Therefore, states are free to shut you up at will.

      I'm not going to reply to anything, since you're a moron. States CANNOT pass laws which are in conflict of the Constitution. And Press doesn't just mean the printing presses of the 1700s.

      What good is Freedom of the press or speech if the states can take it away at a whim? I'd say its a pretty useless amendment if we take your interpretation, don't you think?

  7. Look on the bright side by antifoidulus · · Score: 5, Funny

    the number of porn titles has exploded since the 70's, so the sources will have plenty of names to pick from....Though I doubt journalists will be very pleased at having to write "my source 'Asian anal adventure volume 5' has informed me that..."

    1. Re:Look on the bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I, for one, welcome our new Fisting Firemen overlords...

  8. Source article by MrNougat · · Score: 5, Informative
    --
    Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
    1. Re:Source article by Morinaga · · Score: 3, Informative
      Better yet, instead of an article linked to an opinion piece blog or an article linked to the actual press that's part of the news, how about we link to a third party? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801/ap_on_re_us/ny _times_phone_records

      The case involved stories written in 2001 by Times reporters Judith Miller and Philip Shenon that revealed the government's plans to freeze the assets of two Islamic charities, the Holy Land Foundation and the Global Relief Foundation.

      Prosecutors claimed the reporters' phone calls to the charities seeking comment had tipped the organizations off about the government investigation.

      U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald asked the Times for information about the source of the reports in 2002, then threatened to subpoena phone company billing records in 2004.

      The newspaper sued to block any such effort, saying prosecutors might use the records to fish for information about the Times' sources for a long list of stories.

      There is of course a line in the sand with the press in which the 1st amendment reaches the yelling fire in a theatre threshold. I think the question here is this equivalent to the NY Times tipping off the Germans prior to Normandy? Or is this something they should be able to do, in this case tipping off possible sources of terrorist funding right after 9-11 no less. The government is rightly seeking to find the sources of the original leaks to the reporters rather than looking to prosecute the reporters themselves. The reporters, in my view were irresposible but because freedom of the press is a sacred cow (rightfully so in most cases) they are pretty untouchable. However, the source of the leak should rightfully be given up when it comes to a matter of national security. Once that source is discovered they should be prosecuted.

    2. Re:Source article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is of course a line in the sand with the press in which the 1st amendment reaches the yelling fire in a theatre threshold. I think the question here is this equivalent to the NY Times tipping off the Germans prior to Normandy?"

      Is it the fear of a terrorism posing less risk than a drive to the mall making the level of general stupidity rise so high? 9-11 !1!eleventy!11!!! Terr-orrr-ists under the bed!!!!1!1 And the fire analogy, what the fuck possible logical connection can you make between these two scenarios beyond both involving speech. Does calling you mom relate somehow too? Turn OFF the fucking TV, put down the Gameboy and read at least one book on elementary logical constructs before you die, please! Before you sell off the few remaining rights and freedoms your country once sacrificed rivers of blood to hold.

    3. Re:Source article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems you are the one having trouble appreciating given examples as a relative demonstration to support an arguement. It also seems you have difficulty refuting arguements based on points of fact.

  9. Curiously... by Otter · · Score: 3, Informative
    As always when reading this stuff, my first thought was that the media shouldn't have gotten so obsessed with damaging the Bush administration over the Plame "scandal" nonsense that they demanded that punishing leakers take priority over all else.

    Then upon reading the story -- it's the same reporter!?! At least it doesn't look like she's headed back to jail this time.

    1. Re:Curiously... by timster · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oddly enough, while your post is sort of the conventional wisdom on the Plame leak controversy, you actually have it backwards.

      Judith Miller -- the journalist involved in both these issues -- wasn't involved in any sort of attempt to damage the Bush administration with the Plame scandal. In fact, Bush insiders intentionally leaked the story to Miller and others as part of the Iraq WMD propaganda. Judith Miller's stories had swallowed the administration's line on WMD so leaking to her was a natural choice (along with other conservative reporters like Bob Novak).

      Thus, the leak issue came up not because the media was obsessed with damaging the Bush administration, but because the government's prosecutor was determined to get to the bottom of the case (for whatever reason). Since it was pro-Bush journalists who had received the Plame leak, it was pro-Bush journalists who were being asked to reveal sources.

      The more recent instances of anti-leak sentiment are more traditional cases of the "liberal media" publishing information that the Bush administration wanted to keep secret. This is the exact opposite of the Plame scandal, where the information was leaked on purpose.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    2. Re:Curiously... by jmorris42 · · Score: 0, Troll

      > Then upon reading the story -- it's the same reporter!?!

      Hypocrisy isn't something the NYT worries about. If investigating a leak might hurt Chimpy McBushHitler (or Dick "Halliburton" Cheney) they are all for it. If Chimpy is the one wanting to know who leaked stuff they are against it. Just that simple. And if all this stuff helps the terrorists who the hell cares, the War is just a fevered raving of Chimpy and they wouldn't be trying to blow us up if Kerry had been elected.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    3. Re:Curiously... by illumin8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As always when reading this stuff, my first thought was that the media shouldn't have gotten so obsessed with damaging the Bush administration over the Plame "scandal" nonsense that they demanded that punishing leakers take priority over all else.

      The irony in your statement is that there would be no reason to try and "damage the Bush administration" if they hadn't willfully and maliciously acted to damage Valerie Plame's career and personal safety, simply for being married to someone that spoke out about the lies on WMDs.

      You think that reporters should be punished for "damaging the reputation of government?" What kind of fascist, repressive country do you think we live in? What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;" don't you understand?

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    4. Re:Curiously... by Otter · · Score: 1
      Oddly enough, while your post is sort of the conventional wisdom on the Plame leak controversy, you actually have it backwards....Thus, the leak issue came up not because the media was obsessed with damaging the Bush administration, but because the government's prosecutor was determined to get to the bottom of the case (for whatever reason).

      Your clarification about Judith Miller is correct; the above is simply absurd.

    5. Re:Curiously... by 2short · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about?

        We have two cases of reporters being asked to divulge sources, one where the Bush administration wants them to, one where it didn't. The NYT was against revealing sources in both cases.

    6. Re:Curiously... by Otter · · Score: 1
      You think that reporters should be punished for "damaging the reputation of government?"

      Please note that I said no such thing; you invented words and stuck them in quotation marks.

      My point has nothing to do with how reporters should be treated (which, of course, isn't the same as what the law currently is). It's that people whose industry is heavily dependent on receiving leaked information might have been more cautious about demanding that a leaker be tracked down by any means possible just to do some short-term damage to the Bush administration. They set a precedent that's going to create huge headaches for them in the long run.

    7. Re:Curiously... by jmorris42 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      > The NYT was against revealing sources in both cases.

      Ah, but there is more to the story my politically uneducated friend. The special prosocutor in the 'Plamegate' tempest in a teapot was appointed to appease the howls of outrage pouring forth daily from.... wait for it..... the editorial page of the New York Times.

      And now that it is all over we can make a reasonably accurate guess why they stonewalled the turnover of Ms. Miller's records. Because they knew what was in her records, and therefore knew they wouldn't harm Chimpy; thus quietly turning them over would have brought the 'scandal' to an end a good year sooner and that wasn't in their interest.

      Time to face it. Bush drew a line in the sand and said you are either with us or with the terrorists. The moonbats didn't need two full seconds to decide which side of the line they were going to stand on, and while at first it was more a case of simply being on the opposite side from Chimpy, they are starting to realize that Bush was right, and once on the side of the terrorists they might as well start swingin for their team. After all it was an easy enough slide, almost all of the left/msm are pro PLO and anti-semitic (even the jews in the media tend towards the left winger self hating jew variety), they hate America and western civilization with a passion equal to UBL himself although for totally different reasons and have zero moral restraints. Most of them spent the 60s through early 90s fighting passionately against the West in the service of the Soviets and when it comes to insane evil is UBL and Irans mad mullahs really worse masters/allies than the heirs of Stalin?

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    8. Re:Curiously... by toddhisattva · · Score: 0

      President Kennedy's UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson leaked secret information to the UN Security Council.

      President Kennedy leaked secret information to the whole world on television.

      You see, the Executive can declassify secret information, then publicize it.

      So there was no leak, there was no need for a special prosecutor, and the whole scandal is in the imaginations of idiots, fuelled by traitors.

    9. Re:Curiously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course he has it backwards. Otter is the biggest waste of space on Slashdot next to that fucker from the University of Wisconsin.

      Just ignore Otter, he's completely worthless. Him and that stupid fucking Porsche he drives to make up for his tiny cock.

    10. Re:Curiously... by jafac · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      BEFORE the election, the President can go on national TV and say he's going to get to the bottom of this matter, and the leaker will be "taken care of".

      AFTER the election, (and, incidentally, after the fact) he can say that he declassified the information.

      Of course, this only makes sense to someone who desperately wants it to - in order to assuage the cognative dissonance of hero-worship of a criminal.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    11. Re:Curiously... by jafac · · Score: 1

      The special prosocutor in the 'Plamegate' tempest in a teapot was appointed to appease the howls of outrage pouring forth daily from.... wait for it..... the editorial page of the New York Times.

      NO idiot.

      The special prosecutor was appointed by the DoJ, AT THE REQUEST OF THE CIA, after the CIA did their damage assessment from having an agent (and agent's supporting front organization, Brewster & Jennings, and all affiliated agents) exposed.

      If special prosecutors could be appointed by the NYT editorial page, Bill Clinton would have been executed for the murder of David Koresh.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    12. Re:Curiously... by illumin8 · · Score: 1
      Please note that I said no such thing; you invented words and stuck them in quotation marks.


      I could have left the quotation marks off and it would have meant the same thing. In any case, I didn't mean to attribute those words to you... You merely said something about the media trying to damage the Bush administration.
      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    13. Re:Curiously... by Intron · · Score: 1

      The prosecutor on the Valerie Plame case was Patrick Fitzgerald, whereas the prosecutor on this telephone records case is, ... um, Patrick Fitzgerald. I wonder whether the FBI is claiming that the reporters interfered with their investigation or whether it is Fitzgerald who is the only one claiming that the reporters "tipped off" the suspect organizations.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    14. Re:Curiously... by 2short · · Score: 1

      "And now that it is all over we can make a reasonably accurate guess why they stonewalled the turnover of Ms. Miller's records. Because they knew what was in her records, and therefore knew they wouldn't harm Chimpy; thus quietly turning them over would have brought the 'scandal' to an end a good year sooner and that wasn't in their interest."

      Of course, the Bush administration knew what was in Ms. Millers records, and could have brought the whole thing to a close at any tinme with a five minute press conference.

  10. Law to shield?? by Britz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the current administration will pass any laws on journalism it will most likely look more like the laws Mr. Bush's special pal Putin passes.

  11. Re:Why does the media by thrillseeker · · Score: 1

    ... hate freedom, support terrorists and want to abort babies to use the remnant stem cells to save gays from AIDS?

    It sells more papers to those who like-their-meat-cut-up-for-them-into-bite-sized pieces.

  12. No need by pkcs11 · · Score: 0

    If lawyers are going to willingly undermine national security, then they deserved to be treated as such.
      If you made a law that made it illegal to knowingly distribute classified information (for profit or otherwise) then this wouldn't be an issue and reporters could go back to telling us what to wear, how to act and where to place our votes.

    --
    "I have an odd craving to whisper about those few frightful hours in that ill-rumored and evilly shadowed seaport of dea
  13. Judical activism by gregTheBald · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Regardless whether it's time for a shield law, it certainly isn't time for a judge to decide that, since there isn't one, he should create one out of whole cloth by way of judicial fiat. Thank God only one out of three judges thought that professional reporters shouldn't have to gather information and facts in accordance with the same laws the rest of us have to abide by.

    1. Re:Judical activism by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not sure what laws you think don't apply to journalists...There is no license you need to be a journalist. There is no law against starting your own news paper/channel/website. They are just regular people.

      The question you should be asking, is, why are regular people not accorded this protection? The answer has been (until recently) that you are unless those records are opened by a court subpoena, due to the fact that you are suspected of committing a crime.

      The problem in this case is that the reporters aren't committing a crime. You see the difference? The government is forcing records out of regular citizens to use in witchhunts against whistleblowers and suspected lawbreakers. There is no part of that that is in any way cool.

      Mind you, I think Judith Miller should be clubbed to death like a baby seal, but you can't stand up for freedoms only for people you like.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:Judical activism by corbettw · · Score: 1

      The problem in this case is that the reporters aren't committing a crime. You see the difference? The government is forcing records out of regular citizens to use in witchhunts against whistleblowers and suspected lawbreakers. There is no part of that that is in any way cool.

      Not entirely correct (though not entirely wrong, either). The records were needed so the grand jury could decide if there's sufficient evidence to warrant an indictment, after which the AG can move on to trial and determine if the reporters are guilty of a crime. So a crime may have occurred, but we don't know for sure yet. That's why the records are needed, and it's a perfectly reasonable reason to request those records.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  14. Submitter's Blog by Hokie06 · · Score: 1

    Everything netbuzz submits is from his blog. Not a bad way to get your page views up.

    --
    Kilroy was here.
    1. Re:Submitter's Blog by MrNougat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Okay this is definitely off-topic (and flamebait), but I gotta get something off my chest --

      All this "social aggregation" stuff with Slashdot and Digg and Fark and whatever else - it's a giant blogspam circle jerk. I am bored with it. Somebody invent Web 3.0 already.

      --
      Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
    2. Re:Submitter's Blog by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      it's a giant blogspam circle jerk. I am bored with it.

      Nevertheless, you're still participating in it.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:Submitter's Blog by MrNougat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wrong. I'm not writing blog entries that refer to content elsewhere, then submitting my own blog to aggregation sites. I am a consumer of such things, and it has just struck me on the head today that I would prefer to consume the meat of the story as opposed to the styrafoam container in which it is delivered. My personal scale finally tipped to the point where I feel I am consuming more packaging than content.

      As it stands right now, I don't see any other option (apart from being less informed), and that irks me.

      --
      Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
  15. Re:Fuck 'em by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with freedom, is that there are always going to be people who use it in ways you don't approve of.

    There are two ways to deal with this:
    1) Remove the freedom
    2) Understand that freedom doesn't just apply to things you approve of.

    Now, option 1 is real popular these days, but I myself prefer option 2, especially when it comes to rights touched on in the First Amendment.

    I hear people sneering about the First all the damn time. The "Hippie" amendment right? Right to pornography? Right for those press jackals to pry into your life?

    The First amendment contains nearly every single right essential to democracy. Assembly, Speech, Press, Redress of Greviances, and Freedom of Religion/Prohibition of State sponsored religion. This fricking government has made inroads against every single part of this amendment, and I have no doubt they'd love to see it weakened.

    So don't let your disdain for Fox news blind you on this one. Whenever the government starts imposing penalties against people for publishing true statements, its everybodys problem.

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  16. Sort your Country out...... by General+Melchett · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Holy crap, in the last 3 days on slashdot, I've read stories repoting with problems with your (U.S.) police force, youre election system, and now your 'free press'. I have to ask, what the fuck is going on in your country, and how much more will you have to see to do something about it??? Your apathy is not only going to cost you, but the rest of the globe as well.

    1. Re:Sort your Country out...... by cliffski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Amen brother. Its especially depressing because the USA is always touted as 'the land of the free'. Its like emails that start with "this is not a scam" If you have to keep telling everyone how free you are, thats a warning sign right there.
      I like the USA in general, hell I even got married there, but right now, its not somewhere I'd like to live :(
      Whether your Republican or Democrat, you need to start fighting this slide towards an authoritarian state asap.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    2. Re:Sort your Country out...... by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hope and pray and work towards the end that the democrats take at least one house of congress this November -- hopefully the elections won't be stolen.

      A lot of slashdotters think that the two American political parties are all but identical, but I don't buy it. If Kerry were president, I doubt we would be in Iraq right now, (and if Gore were president, I doubt we would ever have gone in), and there wouldn't have been so much death in New Orleans.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    3. Re:Sort your Country out...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      That is a load of tripe. New Orleans was in bad shape since at least kennedy. The corruption there is almost a historical monument.

      The elections were not 'stolen' no matter how much you re-read the numbers. You lost suck it up just like I did when Clinton won. It was close.

      The two parties are fairly close (they have to be as they are majority parties). The real differences happen in the smaller parties that no one looks at.

      It is easy to sit here now and say 'oh they would not have done that they said they would not have'. I call bull. They are just saying it now to look good. Just like all good politicos do. They are mearly petting their own egos. They are not looking for real change they are just looking to be in charge.

    4. Re:Sort your Country out...... by revery · · Score: 1

      Hey, at least we let kids climb trees"...

    5. Re:Sort your Country out...... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Care to tell us where you are from? I'm sure you're country isn't all roses and puppies either.

    6. Re:Sort your Country out...... by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The elections were not 'stolen' no matter how much you re-read the numbers.

      So what? The numbers can't be trusted, because Ohio used Diebold voting machines. We know how trivial those are to hack, and it would have only had to be done in a few key districts to change the election.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    7. Re:Sort your Country out...... by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful

      See, you're exactly the kind of person I was talking about in my other post in this thread: the kind who keeps making excuses because he doesn't want to face the fact that we're screwing ourselves!

      It doesn't fucking matter what country this guy is from; it changes nothing about our problems, right here, right now! Stop shooting the messenger, and stop rationalizing that our problems are OK because the rest of the world sucks too. Our country was never intended to be like the rest of the world; if it were, we would have just made Washington a fucking king and been done with it.

      The only way to fix our problems is to fix our problems, and the only way that can happen is if everyone wakes the fuck up and realizes that they exist. Starting now. And starting with you!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    8. Re:Sort your Country out...... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1
      Its like emails that start with "this is not a scam" If you have to keep telling everyone how free you are, thats a warning sign right there.
      It's called The Big Lie and it works surprisingly well, probably because the public at large is surprisingly naive.
    9. Re:Sort your Country out...... by ksheff · · Score: 1

      New Orleans wouldn't have been any different because the major problems were at the state and local level.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    10. Re:Sort your Country out...... by Hack'n'Slash · · Score: 1

      I'm glad you see how truly bad it is getting. Could you please convince your government to come and liberate us?

      (Or arrange for me to immigrate to New Zealand, whichever is easier.) :)

    11. Re:Sort your Country out...... by slick_rick · · Score: 1

      Maybe he is implying that since Gore likely wouldn't have invaded Iraq, we'd have an extra third of trillion or so in the budget to help out NOLa.
      I don't think Democrats are gods gift to my personal freedom, far from it. I only vote for democrats because they are the lesser of two evils. They have in the last 30 years shown themselves to be more financially prudent. They also dont invade third world countries.

      If it were up to me all uniformed police would have to wear cameras and mics at all times so we could all watch the watchers. The government would stop spying on it's own people. We would legalize all the silly vices (sex, drugs) and tax them instead. The government would spend hundreds of billions on public transit and getting us off of foreign oil, not on trying to force democracies on countries that crave theocracies.

      Most days I just wish we had a parliamentary system ala Iraq or Sweden where smaller parties could actually have a say, as there is no greater personal freedom then castinv a vote that actually counts.

      --
      apt-get install redhat please god - Me (take it easy, I love Debian)
    12. Re:Sort your Country out...... by Joe+Ego · · Score: 1

      Let's just completely ignore all the fanciful opinions that precede the following quote:

      "and there wouldn't have been so much death in New Orleans."

      What makes you think a Democrat President would have done things so differently? The levees would have still failed. People and governments still would have refused to evacuate. The Coast Guard still would have been performing helicopter rescues. The National Guard still would have performed their duty. Geraldo and Blitzer and others would still cry on camera.

      I'm sure the total would be pretty close to 1,577 in any case because you'd still have people stuck in nursing homes and straggling in late to the superdome and convention center. You'll never convince anybody that a Democrat President would have influenced local politicians to follow their own plans and user their own buses before the hurricane hit.

      Maybe the media wouldn't have had a field day with George Bush, who I hear "doesn't care about black people", and so we'd get fewer rape and cannibalism stories. Just maybe a Democrat in charge would have had a little more pull with the Democrats in charge of Louisiana so they'd blame him less. Oh, I guess maybe the FEMA head would have been fired a little sooner. Yay for federal scapegoats!

      So that adds up to 1,500 trapped, stubborn, and stupid dead people from a hurricane, a neglected levee system, a failed response from local and state relief agencies, and a lot of scrambling from the feds. Sure doesn't sound any different, except that this time the President takes a smaller political hit because he's from the party that cares oh so much about all the poor black people that they'd likely get more than $2,000 on the FEMA debit cards that are passed out like candy. You know, because he actually cares about them... collectively... as black vot^^^ people.

      --
      ---Joe Ego
    13. Re:Sort your Country out...... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "...and there wouldn't have been so much death in New Orleans."

      Take it from me, I live(d) in New Orleans, and it wasn't the Bush admin. or Republicans in general that caused the problems.

      First, in the short term, it was a man made disaster that killed the city, shoddy construction of levies by the Corps of Engineers, and years of letting the oil and gas industry cut channels and pipelines into the protecting marshlands and coastline (so we can produce about 1/3 of the US's energy needs), that caused the flooding.

      Second, the Gov. was probably IMHO, the most to blame for the slowness of help reaching the city. If she had federalized the situation quicker, when the Nat'l guard could have moved in immediately...but, she didn't want to cede any power to the Feds...and she has had a long term butting of heads with Mayor Nagin...she did not want to cooperate with anyone.

      On a federal level...FEMA is an overbloated, bureaucracy that was caught completely unprepared for the mission...especially the aftermath.

      And lastly...stupid people in NOLA. You have a lot of people that could have gotten out of the city, but, didn't. We didn't get that much warning it was coming, but, there was enough. I was drinking in a bar with friends that Friday night, watching a small, possible Cat 2 storm going up the panhandle of FL. I was awaken by calls (whew that was a hangover) on Sat. morning with friends and family asking what I was going to do. I said "do about what?"...then turned on the news. That storm moved west VERY fast and got very strong. I started then getting stuff together to leave, and left with friends that afternoon. All Sat and Sun the tv and radio was full of warnings from the Mayor and others to leave town immediately.

      While I was getting a little jaded myself after so many evacuations with nothing (George, Ivan..etc)...I didn't take but 4 tshirts, 4 shorts, my laptop and my dog...but, I did leave. Anyone with a lick of sense would have too...hell, if I'd not had a car...I'd have started walking and made it out of there.

      So, take it from me...the death and destruction in New Orleans were not a Republican administration fault...it was the pinacle of events and stupidity that had been building for years.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:Sort your Country out...... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      You totally missed the point of my post.

      I realize we have problems, I'm not trying to ignore them or any of that crap you said I meant. What I am sick of is non-Americans saying how crappy our country is from high and mighty 'we are pefect' soap box.

      We have problems.. no shit, but I guess you never heard of the saying 'those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.' Its the hipocracy of those kinds of statements that I hate, and was attempting to address.

    15. Re:Sort your Country out...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      We have problems.. no shit, but I guess you never heard of the saying 'those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.' Its the hipocracy of those kinds of statements that I hate, and was attempting to address.
      Shouldn't we encourage everyone to throw stones at our house? Hipocrisy is irrelevant. I would love to have a bunch of holier-than-thou europeans debug my government. And if their governments remain crappy because they shine their light on our cockroaches instead of their own, then the joke's on them, not us.
    16. Re:Sort your Country out...... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      And my point is that you're missing the point by stopping to get mad at them when you ought to just be getting mad at our government instead!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    17. Re:Sort your Country out...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Your apathy is not only going to cost you, but the rest of the globe as well.

      In much the same way that the British penchant for pushing police-tended cameras up everyone's ass will damage privacy. The US, Canada, GB and Australia are all in a vicious circle jerk to see how far they can go in destroying civil rights.

      Read a little history to see how far the fucking Brits have pushed things based on their over-reaction to anything having to do with the IRA.

    18. Re:Sort your Country out...... by mjwx · · Score: 0

      Maybe thats the wrong attitude.

      Instead of trying to get Americans to do something about corruption maybe we should distance ourselves from America. Australia and EU have always had pretty good ties. Maybe we should spend our energies on that.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  17. Hmmmmmmmm by Billosaur · · Score: 1

    What if you're a reporter for "High Times?"

    --
    GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    1. Re:Hmmmmmmmm by Raul654 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      High Times is certainly more reputable than the Washington Times (which is to the newspaper industry what Fox News is to the TV news industry - part of the propaganda wing of the Repulican party).

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    2. Re:Hmmmmmmmm by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      they all use aliases to begin with, i would LOVE to see the government try to find the sources of where the (insert favorite strain here) is being grown.... have you seen those grow ops in the mag HOLY SHIT..... as posted abouve, im gonna stop giving them ideas

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    3. Re:Hmmmmmmmm by fallen1 · · Score: 1

      Dude, you're really just, like, not worried about it. I mean, man, they give you munchies in the joint my man. And hey, it's called the "JOINT"! Whoa...

      --

      Dream as if you'll live forever.
      Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
      ~Anonymous~

  18. Don't ya know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the calls will be to and from the DNC!

  19. Just wondering.. by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One question I have: if communication between reporter and source is truly anonymous then how does any reporter know if the information is legitmate? At some point anonymity had better break down between reporter and source. Because when a reporter tells me something, which they say is news, I had better damn well know what their source is and know that it's legit, or they are going to be hard pressed to get me to believe a word of what they're saying.

    Another question is about the supposed 'only' methods of achieving the anonymity I above questioned.

    From the article: "Only a clearly written federal shield law will give reporters and their anonymous sources the confidence they need to communicate outside of darkened parking garages."

    Darkened parking garages? Please. How about just an office? Or a restaurant. Or, well, anywhere. If someone really wants to evesdrop on a reporter I can't imagine the reporter is going to be able to stop them by simply going to a parking garage. How about a public phone?

    I am really just waiting for someone to tell me why I should believe anything a reporter says when their source is completely unknown due to total anonymity.

    TLF

    --
    I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    1. Re:Just wondering.. by jandrese · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The thing is, the kind of informants this is supposed to protect are the kind that can't afford to be seen in public talking to a reporter. Like when the administration is doing something illegal and unethical, but they've classified it to prevent the public from knowing, the person who reports it can be executed for treason if the information leaks out, even if they were completely justified in what they did. The Valarie Plame affair should have reinforced that the current administration is not above petty repaisals either.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:Just wondering.. by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      It is my understanding of the Plame Affair that the reporter revealed the identity of Plame as a CIA operative. I'm not sure how this relates to a reporter being allowed to keep their sources identities a secret when the very same reporter has decided to reveal their source's identity? Are you saying it would become illegal for a reporter to reveal the identity of a CIA agent? I am fairly sure that it already is. Which is to say, I don't know how this relates to the aforementioned shield law.

      It strikes me as strange to think that someone who is doing The Right Thing should have to worry about government repurcussion. If it's true that they need to then perhaps it's not a shield law we need but rather to closer examine our government and its ability to persecute people who have done no wrong, if indeed that is even what happened.

      TLF

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    3. Re:Just wondering.. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      "Only a clearly written federal shield law will give reporters and their anonymous sources the confidence they need to communicate outside of darkened parking garages."

      Darkened parking garages? Please. How about just an office? Or a restaurant.
      "

      Yeah, because nobody would ever notice a reporter sitting down to dinner with a high ranking pentagon official. And nobody would take a second notice of a reporter coming in to CIA headquarters with an appointment scheduled with a senior manager. Nor would anyone notice the CIA manager walking into the Washington Posts' office and to meet with a reporter.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    4. Re:Just wondering.. by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      "I am really just waiting for someone to tell me why I should believe anything a reporter says when their source is completely unknown due to total anonymity."

      You don't understand how anonymous sources work. The reporter knows the identity of the individual. It's anonymous because the individual doesn't want his/her name in print. For example Woodward and Bernstein knew who Deep Throat actually was - He wasn't just some random crank. Reporters anonymous sources are not unknown to the reporer.

      BSD

    5. Re:Just wondering.. by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because nobody would ever notice a reporter sitting down to dinner with a high ranking pentagon official. And nobody would take a second notice of a reporter coming in to CIA headquarters with an appointment scheduled with a senior manager. Nor would anyone notice the CIA manager walking into the Washington Posts' office and to meet with a reporter.

      Tell me, is it right that said high ranking officials et al should need to worry about their identities being secret if what they are saying is truly something that the citizens need to know, and we as a country need to be aware of? If the revelations they provide are important enough to the country as a whole, they shouldn't need fear anything but publicity from the exposure. And if they are truly revelations, there is no way their identities won't eventually be revealed. How else are we going to eventually believe what the reporter says? And, like I've said before, if there's some fear of government repurcussion from above, a form of which is NOT legal and violates the rights of individuals, then we need to examine the government or the agency or group involved in the actions against the informants. Not look at a bandage solution like a shield law which will essentially only cover up the real problem.

      TLF

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    6. Re:Just wondering.. by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      I am really just waiting for someone to tell me why I should believe anything a reporter says when their source is completely unknown due to total anonymity.

      Like with medical advice, get a second opinion. Do what you can to verify the story, but don't dismiss it out of hand. With new secret laws on the books, anonymity is more important than ever. With secret laws come secret people. If it's ok for a cop to wear a mask and avoid identification while on the job, then everybody else needs the same protections, for the same reasons. If we must open up for the government, then they must open up for us. Yes, I am obsessed with that silly equal protection thing, especially in a country that preaches such things ad nauseum.

      --
      What?
    7. Re:Just wondering.. by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, the only reason Felt wanted to remain anonymous was to for privacy.

      And the constitution already covers that right adequately. Any law trying to destroy that right violates the constitution IMHO.

      So, IMHO, a shield law is -1 redundant.

      TLF

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    8. Re:Just wondering.. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      "Tell me, is it right that said high ranking officials et al should need to worry about their identities being secret if what they are saying is truly something that the citizens need to know, and we as a country need to be aware of?"

      No, it isn't right, and that's exactly the danger. If there is something evil and corrupt going on, and you bring it to light, are you so naive to believe that the evil and corrupt people will not do everything in their power to cover up their deeds, assassinate your character, and make your life miserable in every way they can?

      "And if they are truly revelations, there is no way their identities won't eventually be revealed."

      Sure, their identities will be revealed, but need not be until they are well out of danger. We didn't know who 'Deep Throat was until 2005, well after he was out of danger.

      "How else are we going to eventually believe what the reporter says?"

      Deep Throat led Woodward and Bernstein to discover facts that they would have never found on their own. When the reporters report facts, instead of anonymous relevations, we can check up on them.

      You should read some history. Up until very recently, humankind was ruled by paranoid, bloodthirsty, tyrant kings who could do whatever they wanted, and felt that they literally had 'Divine Right' to rule. Those types of people are still around and it is in their nature to try to amass more power. The freedom of the press is one of the few checks on power that we have.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    9. Re:Just wondering.. by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Nearly everything in the law is a bandage. The wheels of justice grind slowly; if a CEO's secretary gets fired and slapped with a restraining order for whisteblowing, the laws that protect him or her won't take effect anywhere near quickly enough to keep that person from being reduced to poverty.

      Even at its best the law is a patchwork of new laws covering up failings left by old ones. You're right that it's better to examine the agency involved in violating the rights of whistleblowers, but if we could fix these agencies for that problem, we could fix it so that there wouldn't be any need to blow the whistle in the first place.

    10. Re:Just wondering.. by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      Pseudonymity works just fine.

      If I tell you something, and you confirm it through some other source, I gain credibility. Lather, rinse, repeat.

      It's not foolproof, of course. I could tell you a series of truths to build up confidence, then lie to you, but that's not substantially different than saying "Hi, I'm Dick Cheney and you should believe me because I'm in a position to know."--then lying to you.

    11. Re:Just wondering.. by McCart42 · · Score: 1

      One question I have: if communication between reporter and source is truly anonymous then how does any reporter know if the information is legitmate? At some point anonymity had better break down between reporter and source. Because when a reporter tells me something, which they say is news, I had better damn well know what their source is and know that it's legit, or they are going to be hard pressed to get me to believe a word of what they're saying.

      As usual, technology offers a solution: pseudonymity. It's the central idea behind Wikipedia, and to a lesser extent Freenet. In the case of Freenet, it can be securely verifiable that a user is who they say they are through cryptography, yet near-impossible to know that user's identity beyond what they want you to know. In the case of reporters' sources, a pseudonymous user could give information, which at first the reporter is not obliged to believe since that reporter has no knowledge of the source. However, if that lead turns out to be verifiably accurate, the reporter can begin to establish trust with the source, and accept further leads as newsworthy. All this with complete plausible deniability of the identity of the source, even if the reporter's personal effects and communications devices are confiscated.

      In practice, will we see reporters using this? No. It's a shame they don't, but unfortunately most people don't encrypt or even cryptographically sign their emails either, despite public key encryption having been freely available for 15 years, if you consider Phil Zimmerman's release of PGP in 1991 as the first freely available public key encryption. Incidentally, what's with Gmail not including even basic support for cryptographic signing/verification?

      --
      "I may be quite wrong." - Socrates
    12. Re:Just wondering.. by Jasin+Natael · · Score: 1

      You are 100% correct. And thus the right to a fair and speedy trial. The right to a speedy trial keeps the rich (read: lawyered-up) from abusing the poor. It would be nice if that were a constitutional right for civil matters as well as criminal, but the entire legal system has slowed to such a crawl that it is virtually useless against corruption. I have no doubt that my family, creditors, et al, would bear with me while a wrongful termination suit was in progress for 2 months, or even 4 months, but it's absurd that even a simple case takes 18-24 months to resolve. Bankruptcy, homelessness, divorce, all kinds of things could be expected to occur in the interim.

      When it takes a crooked CEO 4 hours to set up offshore accounts, transfer embezzled funds, and leave the country, but 2 years in court to bring him back and recover the money, I consider that to be an absurd situation.

      I wouldn't be surprised if, in this world, I could steal someone's money in a business deal and use it to buy lawyers to grind them into dust afterward. Their countersuit would be ineffective in preventing them from being reduced to a life of poverty while the case drags out.

      --
      True science means that when you re-evaluate the evidence, you re-evaluate your faith.
    13. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The affair was as much the reporter reporting on Plame as how the reporter got the name in the first place. It only became the circus it did because when it started out, Bush was thumping his chest and ranting about how he was going to track down the leaks, even if they came from his administration. Then his chest thumping got weaker and weaker as the Pointer-O-Guilt started climbing to the top.

      Now that the pointer has finally come to a rest, he claims he declassified it and knew all along and was just pulling the country's leg. Another poster points out what seems to have "really" happened: The reporter was a pro-bush lackey who would run with anything the administration told her, and she was apparently fed this line in order to attack Plame and her husband for daring to point out the truth behind the Iraq WMD reports. The administration tried to cover up for as long as they could by throwing a dog and pony show, but in the end even fake investigations have to wrap up somewhere.

      its ability to persecute people who have done no wrong

      The problem is that in the eyes of the people participating in these "darkened parking garage" liasons, it is the government who is doing wrong. Whether it's tracing every single call in America, or seizing the property of charities, people leak this information to the press for a reason.

      Personally, I think there should be a rock solid shield law, for those who provide factually correct reports and information. What does this mean? It means that if you're going to tattle on someone, you better provide proof to the reporter so the reporter can defend you in court in your stead. It also means that people who provide reporters with false information should and will be "ratted out", helping to prevent the abuse of the system.

  20. Change Post Title by lbmouse · · Score: 1

    "Ruling Makes Judges Look Like Fucking Idiots"

  21. responsibility by mrshowtime · · Score: 0

    Perhaps if today's reporters stopped making up half of their stories and/or stopped giving away national security secrets, perhaps this would not be happening. I am not a supporter of the Bush administration, but I have noticed an extreme bias to publish any story that makes the president look bad, even if it could possibly help our enemies.

    --
    "Jeremy, you need to get to an internet cafe and cut and paste some appropriate sentiments about me from the world wide
    1. Re:responsibility by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if you had statistics about 1/2 of all stories "being made up." Exactly what national security secrets have been given away by newspapers?

    2. Re:responsibility by westcoast+philly · · Score: 1

      Sorry to break the news to you, but he IS bad. Giving away national secrets? Oh, you mean that distraction he set up.... If you want extreme bias, watch Fox News. oh, and my sources are.. soon to be shot.

    3. Re:responsibility by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps if today's reporters stopped making up half of their stories and/or stopped giving away national security secrets, perhaps this would not be happening.

      The problem is that any dirty deed or violation of domestic/international law by a government entity will de facto be a national security secret. And this is precisely the type of news that journalists should be reporting.

    4. Re:responsibility by kindbud · · Score: 1

      We don't have a war declaration from Congress, so who our enemies are is a matter of opinion, not policy. Perhaps if the executive instituted orders that were conducive to earning loyalty from underlings, because the orders were principled, there wouldn't be any leaks.

      --
      Edith Keeler Must Die
    5. Re:responsibility by Snake98 · · Score: 1

      But reporters and news are supposed to be non-biased, and allow you to form your own opinion, not give you an opinion

      --
      Freedom of Speech only include discussion that are approved by the RIAA, MPAA and DMCA.
    6. Re:responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Principaled? Politicians are way too busy getting blowjobs from interns or studying the bible to worry about principals.

      War declaration from Congress? Impossible. They couldn't agree on giving themselves a raise much less deciding that there was an "enemy".

      About the only thing that would make staff loyal is power or payoffs. Neither of which is an executive branch function. That is left to Congress.

    7. Re:responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the news goes extremely out of their way to make Bush look good. As laughable as most of his public statements are, you should see the unedited versions. On American news, I usually see a 3 second clip of Bush and then a reporter comes on and speaks for him to make an intelligible summary of what he was trying to say.

    8. Re:responsibility by cyber-dragon.net · · Score: 1

      It is exactly this sort of attitude that is ALLOWING Bush to commit acts that are blatantly illegal.

      The press is called "the fourth estate" because it has a definitive place in government. The only thing that exists to keep politicians even pretending to be honest is fear of public reprisal. Public reprisal will come when a reporter exposes the activities of the politician. Protecting reporters is tantamount to protecting your right to know what your government is up to. I agree if they commit an actual crime they should be held accountable but as many have pointed out that is not the case here. The government is violating their rights on suspicion alone. This will make it much less likely that reporters will be approached and thus limit their ability to gather information.

      If you are happy NOT knowing what our leaders are up to then by all means, allow reporters to loose the traditional protections that allow them to do their jobs. From what I have seen however the only "State secrets" I have seen exposed are violations of rights and illegal activity. These are things I WANT exposed.

    9. Re:responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't have a war declaration from Congress

      yes we do. The congressional authorization use of military force counts.

      supreme court has said so numerous times.

      -john

    10. Re:responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, (-315 + 2i)% of statistics are obviously incorrect.

  22. Why should the press have rights we don't have? by WCMI92 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just because you are a reporter you aren't above the law. If I or anyone else would have to reveal something under subpoena or on a witness stand if it were part of a criminal case (and leaking classified documents is a crime), then so should the high and mighty New York Times.

    I am sick and tired of the Times and other blatantly anti war publications like them putting our soldiers and our security at risk.

    If you work at an agency and you think there is something illegal going on the proper procedure is to call the US Attorney's office, not the New York Times. The person who does the former is a whistleblower. The person who does the latter is a criminal.

    --
    Corporatism != Free Market
    1. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by hawfizzle · · Score: 1

      "MCM: We have to understand that for some decades the press has served basically an establishmentarian function. They have the reputation, and they certainly have the self-image, of being terribly skeptical, prone to disrespectful questions, probing dark matters that authority would just as soon have them leave alone. That's a very flattering view of the press but completely undeserved. The press will not deal with any story that goes beyond a particular scandal to cast doubt on the very viability of the entire system. The press in this country will studiously ignore any story that too violently rocks the boat, whose implications are too shattering."

    2. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by WCMI92 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Wow, a moderator with a political agenda. Typical.

      --
      Corporatism != Free Market
    3. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by plague3106 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If I or anyone else would have to reveal something under subpoena or on a witness stand if it were part of a criminal case (and leaking classified documents is a crime), then so should the high and mighty New York Times.

      If the information they want was part of a investigative story you did, you'd have the same protections.

      I am sick and tired of the Times and other blatantly anti war publications like them putting our soldiers and our security at risk.

      Oh right. Its the journalists fault. Not the people that SENT the troops there to begin with, not the people shooting at the troops. Its the journalists.

      If you work at an agency and you think there is something illegal going on the proper procedure is to call the US Attorney's office, not the New York Times.

      There's a problem if the US attorney's office won't do anything about it though, especially if its corrupt government you're talking about. The correct answer IS going to the press. That's the only way to be sure the journalist isn't silenced in some way. I fail to see how telling anyone of an illegal activity is themselves a criminal. Maybe the people being called out SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ACTING ILLEGALLY TO BEGIN WITH.

      Your logic defies belief. Its not the people breaking the law that's the problem.. is the people telling us about it??

    4. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      "If you work at an agency and you think there is something illegal going on the proper procedure is to call the US Attorney's office, not the New York Times. The person who does the former is a whistleblower. The person who does the latter is a criminal."

      Well what do you do when the attorney general is the criminal? What recourse do you have?

      AH none apparently in your smug little world.

    5. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by koreth · · Score: 1
      Your logic defies belief. Its not the people breaking the law that's the problem.. is the people telling us about it??
      No, the logic is very easy to understand. Pseudocode:

      whoIsTheProblem(wrongdoer,whistleblower) {
      ....if isLiberalAccordingToHannity(wrongdoer)
      ........return wrongdoer
      ....if isLiberalAccordingToHannity(whistleblower)
      ........return whistleblower
      ....throw LookOverThereItsATerroristException
      }

    6. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by Scratch-O-Matic · · Score: 1

      We could facilitate your little system of checks and balances by changing the standard markings to read, "Declassify upon original authority declassification request...or if any cleared person feels that he should compromise the information contained herein."

      --


      Evil is the money of root.
    7. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by (trb001) · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how telling anyone of an illegal activity is themselves a criminal. Maybe the people being called out SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ACTING ILLEGALLY TO BEGIN WITH.

      It's a rather subjective line you're walking there...I doubt most infomants can definitively say that what they're revealing is an illegal act. Take the NSA wiretapping saga currently going on; bright legal minds on both sides of the aisle can't come to a consensus whether it's an illegal activity or not. Half say the president has these powers, half disagree. It will take a SCOTUS verdict, probably resulting in a 5-4 split, to determine that. If the SCOTUS is near evenly split on whether something is in fact illegal, why should we assume Joe Somebody have a clue?

      Instead, they should take it through the proper channels *first* before talking to someone at the NY Times. In addition, the NY Times/USA Today/other papers should be concerned about GETTING THE STORY RIGHT instead of getting the scoop, something that it seems most reporters have lost sight of in recent days.

      To segue...the first amendment determined that the government can't come in and shut down a newspaper for printing things it didn't like. Being subpoenad because someone committed a criminal act in revealing classified information does not fall into that category of free press violations. Being a reporter does not mean you can participate in breaking the law, it means you have the same rights to speak your mind as everyone else, and the government can't violate your right to publish those thoughts.

      --trb

    8. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am sick and tired of the Times and other blatantly anti war publications like them putting our soldiers and our security at risk.

      The phrase "blatantly anti war" makes it sound like there's something wrong with being anti-war, which pretty much says what side you're on, but anyway --

      1. One of the reporters under investigation, Judith Miller, was not only a Times employee, but also one of the major cheerleaders during the build-up to the Iraq war. I know this doesn't fit into your little Fox bubble-world, but it's the truth, and easily verified.

      2. There is no evidence whatsoever that out soldiers and our security were in any way put at risk by anything published in the Times, and not even the government is claiming that there is.

      3. Anyone who opposes freedom of the press is un-American scum.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    9. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by crabpeople · · Score: 1

      "I am sick and tired of the Times and other blatantly anti war publications like them putting our soldiers and our security at risk."

      Colbert is that you?
      Do americans really believe that reporting on domestic wiretapping endangers soldiers in the field?
      I thought that this sort of rational was a joke.

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    10. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by Intron · · Score: 1

      "Just because you are a reporter you aren't above the law. If I or anyone else would have to reveal something under subpoena or on a witness stand if it were part of a criminal case (and leaking classified documents is a crime), then so should the high and mighty New York Times."

      You're right. Judith Miller should be forced to reveal the names of the Bush Administration sources who leaked false evidence of WMDs to her in the months leading up to the war. This was used as justification for the war and has led to the deaths of thousands of US soldiers. Those administration officials should be arrested and punished.

      Oddly, I don't hear about anyone pursuing that case.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    11. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      well if it's a state attorney general, you could call the US attorney general office. The governor would also be interested in what you know. If it's the US attorney general, I suppose you could contact the president directly, if you're inside enough to even know about the corruption, you might be inside enough to have that kind of access.

      failing that, I suppose you could wait until a new president is elected and attempt contact again, but likely you wouldn't be stopping the corruption at that point, just helping in the corruption prosecution after the fact, since a new president would probably appoint a new attorney general.

      I dunno, IANAL. those are just the first things that come to mind.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    12. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If you work at an agency and you think there is something illegal going on the proper procedure is to call the US Attorney's office, not the New York Times. The person who does the former is a whistleblower. The person who does the latter is a criminal.

      US Attorney's office here. We understand your complaint and will have representatives at your door within minutes to put your fucking ass on ice. Oops did I say that? I meant to thoroughly investigate your allegations of governmental malfeasance. thank you for your interest in good government.

    13. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the US Attorney's office will never have a problem investigating the wrongdoing. It's not like they could be denied a security clearance by the people they're investigating or anything.

      http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/artic les/2006/07/19/bush_blocked_probe_ag_testifies/

      Somebody mod parent +5 Fucknuckle

    14. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should be GP. I'm a knuckle, too.

    15. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      It's a rather subjective line you're walking there...I doubt most infomants can definitively say that what they're revealing is an illegal act.

      Bullshit. Most informats are experts in their field. Even still, at the very least they know what is going on is immoral. Immoral acts, even if not illegal, need to be brought to light as well.

      Take the NSA wiretapping saga currently going on; bright legal minds on both sides of the aisle can't come to a consensus whether it's an illegal activity or not.

      The 'bright legal minds' siding with the Bush administrator are clearly wrong. Any highschooler can tell you the taps violate the unreasonable search amendment. I'd have to say, those defending it aren't very bright, and are likely paid by the administration..

      Half say the president has these powers, half disagree. It will take a SCOTUS verdict, probably resulting in a 5-4 split, to determine that. If the SCOTUS is near evenly split on whether something is in fact illegal, why should we assume Joe Somebody have a clue?

      SCOTUS being split has nothing to do with the actual legality of it. Judges have personal motives as well; some may be more willing to ignore the 4th admendment than others. Some members of SCOTUS said that seperate but equal was constitutional as well, when it clearly was not.

      Instead, they should take it through the proper channels *first* before talking to someone at the NY Times. In addition, the NY Times/USA Today/other papers should be concerned about GETTING THE STORY RIGHT instead of getting the scoop, something that it seems most reporters have lost sight of in recent days.

      I think the people have a RIGHT to know when their government isn't following its own rules. Its all too common nowadays for government to try and sweep things under the carpet; more distrubingly, it seems its easier and easier to do this. The government knows it was doing wrong, and it knows it would NEVER be able to stop the media from publishing something.. so now they're going after the whistleblowers. They're trying to do the same thing which the first amendment is meant to protect us from; hide their evil.

      To segue...the first amendment determined that the government can't come in and shut down a newspaper for printing things it didn't like. Being subpoenad because someone committed a criminal act in revealing classified information does not fall into that category of free press violations. Being a reporter does not mean you can participate in breaking the law, it means you have the same rights to speak your mind as everyone else, and the government can't violate your right to publish those thoughts.

      Being a reporter means you CAN publish things, even if the publishing of such information is deemed 'illegal.' How on earth can we possibly keep an eye on government if the someone is not there to expose them? What the government cannot do by censoring the press they are now trying to do by criminalizing the whistleblowers. We the people of this country have a RIGHT to know EVERYTHING which our government is doing. A secret government, one that cannot be examined is a tyranical one.

    16. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by (trb001) · · Score: 1

      Immoral acts, even if not illegal, need to be brought to light as well.

      If an act is immoral, but bringing it to light would violate laws, the person should still be prosecuted. Ignoring laws for the sake of not impugning your sense of morality is not how I want the country run. We have laws for reasons, you may disagree with them, but that doesn't mean we can ignore them.

      The 'bright legal minds' siding with the Bush administrator are clearly wrong.

      Get off your high horse. The SCOTUS splits evenly on most cases. Bright legal minds of all types can have different opinions and judge a case two completely different ways. Because *you* think something is clearly wrong does not make it so.

      Judges have personal motives as well; some may be more willing to ignore the 4th admendment than others.

      Good god man, listen to yourself! There are opinions out there that differ from yours; they aren't wrong, they're just different. Judges never ignore the 4th amendment, they interpret it to mean something different from what you believe it means. That doesn't mena they're wrong, it means through their education and legal career they've come upon reasons to believe it should be implemented a certain way.

      The overarching tone of your reply is that your opinion is right, other people are *clearly* wrong. That's an incredibly self-centered and bigoted world view.

      --trb

    17. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      If an act is immoral, but bringing it to light would violate laws, the person should still be prosecuted. Ignoring laws for the sake of not impugning your sense of morality is not how I want the country run. We have laws for reasons, you may disagree with them, but that doesn't mean we can ignore them.

      Laws which would make illuminating immoral acts are immoral in and of themselves. And yes, it is our duty as citizens of a free country to ignore laws which are immoral. The Civil Rights movement utilized this tactic; those arrested for resisting immoral laws have been wronged and have had their freedoms trampled.

      Futhermore, ignoring laws which people consider immoral is defined as acceptable by our Founding fathers. Read what why thought about jury nullification. Even if the jury believes that the defendant DID violate the law, they may choose to vote Not guilty (effectively ignoring the law) if they believe the law is immoral. The founders believed that when on a jury, you must follow your heart more than anything else.

      Get off your high horse. The SCOTUS splits evenly on most cases. Bright legal minds of all types can have different opinions and judge a case two completely different ways. Because *you* think something is clearly wrong does not make it so.

      You claim to want to be ruled by law, and yet ignore the highest law on the land. A wiretap has been ruled a search. A wiretap on American citizens without a warrant is an illegal search. Any attempt to say otherwise is simply wrong, and smacks of orwellian doublespeak. (Good is bad, etc etc). There are very few clear cuts in this world, however the NSA wiretaps are one of them.

      Good god man, listen to yourself! There are opinions out there that differ from yours; they aren't wrong, they're just different. Judges never ignore the 4th amendment, they interpret it to mean something different from what you believe it means. That doesn't mena they're wrong, it means through their education and legal career they've come upon reasons to believe it should be implemented a certain way.

      My thinking is in line with the founders of this nation, you can find that out yourself by reading the many works they left behind for us. Judges HAVE ignored the 4th amendment; find proof simply by finding appelete courts which overturned rulings from lower courts and cited a violation of 4th amendment rights as the reason. There are plenty of such cases on the books.

      My thinking may be wrong if you don't want to live in a free society and don't believe that everyone has equal rights under the law. But if you don't agree with that philosphy, perhaps you should find another country to live in.

      Education and legal career may lead you to believe that processes should be implemented a certain way, but when that way is in clear violation of the intent of the system of government we have, then yes, it is wrong. I'm sorry, but this 'everyone is right, everything is relative' just doesn't wash with me. We have a system of government which is intended to work a certain way, and trying to say that X goes hand in hand with that system when it clearly doesn't makes you wrong. Sorry, that's just how it is. Some people are right, others are wrong.

      The overarching tone of your reply is that your opinion is right, other people are *clearly* wrong. That's an incredibly self-centered and bigoted world view.

      The overarching tone of your reply is that anyone with an opinion is right, that the SCOTUS is infallible. Nobody can ever be wrong, because we have to be sensitive to everyone's opinion, no matter how assinine it may be. If you think I'm self-centered and bigoted because I believe the government of the former Soviet Union was "wrong" because it violated peoples rights, so be it. You may not care about personal freedom. I can respect that. You are entitled to your opinion. However, when you try to tell me that its ok for MY rights to be violated, you've crossed a line. To me, that's very

    18. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by (trb001) · · Score: 1
      I'd love to hear the justification for the wiretaps being legal, but to date, I haven't heard anything except that 'its legal because we're fighting terrorism.'

      While not definitive, google 'wiretaps legal' and read the host of opinion that cites references in US law. For instance:

      Under Section 4 of USSID 18, communications which are known to be to or from U.S. persons can't be intentionally intercepted without: (a) the approval of the FISA court...; OR (b) the approval of the Attorney General of the United States with respect to "communications to or from U.S. PERSONS outside the United States...international communications" and other categories of communications including for the purpose of collecting "significant foreign intelligence information."

      USSID 18 goes on to allow NSA to gather intelligence about a U.S. person outside the United States even without Attorney General sanction in emergencies "when securing the approval of the Attorney General is not practical because...the time required to obtain such approval would result in the loss of significant foreign intelligence and would cause substantial harm to national security."


      Like it, don't like it, agree, disagree, fine...realize that there are probably more loopholes in federal code than even a lawyer knows about off the top of his/her head. I never said the SCOTUS is infallible, I said that they make the determination on what is/is not legal. The fact that they are often split, and very evenly split, means that our laws are open to interpretation by everybody. You're saying it's very cut and dry, these wiretaps et al are illegal. I'm saying recognize that there are plenty of learned people that disagree with you, and they aren't wrong.

      I'm going to tell you bullshit, because it really is that clear that its a violation

      It's pure guess work determining to what extent the founders would want the 4th to go to. They didn't imagine communication on wires extending from their property across the state/country/world. IMO, what they intended was for limited search on their property only...if I want to conclude that an electronic message starting on my property and then travelling over 1000 other properties, including government owned land, does not constitute a private communication, that's my interpretation and opinion. The courts have, in some cases, leaned away from protection of privacy because of blurred lines; what constitutes unlawful search and seizure, and what constitutes private property? You're not the final word on that, and your opinion matters as much as mine; it's the courts' opinion that really matters.

      --trb
    19. Re:Why should the press have rights we don't have? by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Like it, don't like it, agree, disagree, fine...realize that there are probably more loopholes in federal code than even a lawyer knows about off the top of his/her head. I never said the SCOTUS is infallible, I said that they make the determination on what is/is not legal. The fact that they are often split, and very evenly split, means that our laws are open to interpretation by everybody. You're saying it's very cut and dry, these wiretaps et al are illegal. I'm saying recognize that there are plenty of learned people that disagree with you, and they aren't wrong.

      If you accept that wiretaps are a search, as defined by the Constitution, then you must accept that wiretaps without warrants backed by reasonable suspecion are un-Consitutional. There's nothing wrong with the law you site, however, the NSA has not 1) gone through the FISA courts, and 2) approached the AG of the United States. So yes, it is pretty clear cut. You say these people are 'learned,' yet they fail still back the legality of the NSA's actions. I don't know what to tell you at that point, if you still insist that because they are well respected they may be right. Honsetly, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw these conclusions. Obviously than these people AREN'T as smart as others have preceived or they are pushing some other agenda. Just because someone came to be well respected doesn't mean they are deserving of that respect either (nor does it make their wrong opinions any more 'right').

      It's pure guess work determining to what extent the founders would want the 4th to go to. They didn't imagine communication on wires extending from their property across the state/country/world. IMO, what they intended was for limited search on their property only...if I want to conclude that an electronic message starting on my property and then travelling over 1000 other properties, including government owned land, does not constitute a private communication, that's my interpretation and opinion. The courts have, in some cases, leaned away from protection of privacy because of blurred lines; what constitutes unlawful search and seizure, and what constitutes private property? You're not the final word on that, and your opinion matters as much as mine; it's the courts' opinion that really matters.

      This argument is brought up time and again. 'We don't know what they'd say today.' I would say we do. Their reasoning isn't based on what technology was or was not available at the time, its based on human nature, and human nature hasn't changed much at all in the past 200 years. The tendancy for goverments to abuse their power has not changed. If anything, we should be erring more on the side of privacy and individual rights. You claim that the criminals having more power via technolgy is a reason to give up some of these rights. The fact that the goverment has MORE access to such technology (and the money to buy it) I would argue we need to limit the goverment even more.

      In the end, its the people's opinion that matters, NOT the courts. Remember, the founders say that when all else has failed, its the DUTY of the jury to disregard what the government has to say on the matter, which renders ther courts opinion as invalid. That's pretty powerful; the people can veto the actions of all branches of government in the jury box. Its pretty clear that its the people's opinion that matters most. Again, please read our founders thoughts on jury nullification. And try to realize WE tell the government what to do, not the other way around (at least, that's how this nation is supposed to work).

  23. Or Terrorist by spribyl · · Score: 1

    They will also happen to act like "Terrorist".

  24. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  25. Re:Why does the media by ettlz · · Score: 1

    Ann Coulter, is that you?!

  26. Why? by Bob+Uhl · · Score: 1

    Why should reporters be free not to testify when the rest of us can be compelled to do so? Why should they be able to refuse to testify to illegal activities?

    1. Re:Why? by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      >> Why should reporters be free not to testify when the rest of us can be compelled to do so? Why should they be able to refuse to testify to illegal activities?

      Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom...of the press...

      If journalists must surrender everything they do to the government, then they are not free to talk to those unwilling to talk to the government.

      We have some protections, too. The rest of us cannot be compelled to testify either, if doing so would implicate ourselves. We don't stack rocks on people until they confess anymore.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    2. Re:Why? by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      You certainly aren't always compelled to testify. For example I give you the Fifth Amendment,

      ". . .nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

      See that pesky Constitution again.

    3. Re:Why? by nuggz · · Score: 1

      The press have the freedom to write whatever they want.

      However being held responsible for your actions and what you write isn't an infringement on their ability to act.

    4. Re:Why? by Bob+Uhl · · Score: 1

      The First Amendment doesn't enter into it--freedom of the press is about being free to publish what you want--it's not about being free not to reveal your sources. In support of this, we are specifically exempted from testifying against ourselves by the Fifth Amendment, which has no 'and reporters need not testify about anything they've reported' provision.

    5. Re:Why? by Bob+Uhl · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm familiar with the Fifth Amendment, and with the fact that spouses are (or were, anyway) considered to be exempted from testifying against one another. But the Fifth Amendment doesn't prevent me from being compelled to testify against Jimmy down the street, regardless of whether or not I'm a reporter--and the First Amendment doesn't enter into it either.

  27. Misleading story by Kohath · · Score: 5, Informative

    This story is very misleading.

    The FBI was going to raid some places they thought were linked to terrorist financing. The reporters found out. The reporters called the organizations for comment, in advance of the raids.

    Hi, this is Judith Miller of the New York Times. Your organization is going to be raided by the Feds tomorrow to look for evidence in connection with a terrorist financing investigation. Do you have any comment on that?

    I think the judges' ruling is correct. Reporters can't be allowed the privilege of anonymous sources when they take these sorts of actions.

    1. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      "Reporters can't be allowed the privilege of anonymous sources when they take these sorts of actions."

      Fortunately it's not a priveledge but a constitutional right. I missed the "anonymous source" exmeption in the constitution.

    2. Re:Misleading story by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I missed anything about anonymous sources in the constitution. I also missed the "reporters are super-citizens above the laws" part.

      Freedom of the press is a right that The People have. It's not a special Get Out of Jail Free Card for the NY Times.

    3. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      "I also missed the "reporters are super-citizens above the laws" part." That's not what the Constitution actually says

      Here allow me to quote the relevant section -

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

      Using other laws to get around the prohibition on freedom of speech or press just doesn't cut it. If you do not like it, please AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.

    4. Re:Misleading story by Ritchie70 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Are you kidding me?

      The reporters could probably (and arguably should) be charged with interference with an ongoing investigation. The right to a free press is (in my understanding) a right to write, for public consumption. It is not a right to take any random action in order to obtain facts for said writing.

      If I have been assigned to write a story about the psychological condition of an executioner, am I justified in grabbing someone and "executing" them in the furtherance of my story? Of course not; it's both illegal and wrong.

      It would, in my opinion, be one thing if they had been tipped off by this anonymous source, sat on it until the raids had actually happened, then used the information in their stories. Instead, they took the information they got, and contacted the targets of the raids in advance. Absurd.

      Reporters are not magic special people. They should abide by the same laws and rules of reasonable conduct as the rest of us.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    5. Re:Misleading story by dinivin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      She has the constitutional right to publish her article and take the actions she did. That doesn't mean she has the constitutional right to be free of any and all consequences of her behaviour.

    6. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      SO the NY Times doesn't have that right? Or is it an abstract right that the people have but cannot actually practice. I mean I think you would be hard pressed to prove that the NY Times is part of the press. Yet that is what you are implying, namely the right is held by the People but not the NY Times. To me that argument just doesn't hold water.

    7. Re:Misleading story by corbettw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then it must be legal to shout fire in a crowded theater, or to post an article in the local newspaper saying that Thanatopsis rapes kittens for fun when he's not cheating on his taxes.

      No? None of those things are legal? But I thought freedom of speech and the press were absolute rights?

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    8. Re:Misleading story by MoneyT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And what freedom of the press has been violated here? The right to comit a crime? If you hear about the FBI planning on raiding Scam Co. offices tomorrow and you tip them off and allow them to destroy evidence you have comitted a crime. As a normal citizen you can be compelled to give up your phone records. What freedom of the press allows them to be above a normal citizen?

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    9. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you are not familar with what the term abridging means. It doesn't say,"The press shall be free except in criminal cases." It doesn't say, "The press shall be free except in cases where the executive deems national security at stake." This is what the 1st Amendment of the Constitution says,

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

      Please feel free to amend it if freedom of the press is so frightening to you.

    10. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      Except what is happening here isn't that they are going after the reporters - they want to punish the whistleblower. By punishing the whistleblower, they hope to prevent future embarrassing and often illegal acts from coming to light,

      If you don't like the freedoms provided by the Constitution, please feel free to move to another country such as Singapore.

    11. Re:Misleading story by Kohath · · Score: 1

      There's no need to amend the constitution. There's no "anonymous sources" right in the constitution. Not for reporters, not for anyone. The freedom of the press is the freedom to do things that everyone else can also do.

    12. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 0

      "Reporters are not magic special people. They should abide by the same laws and rules of reasonable conduct as the rest of us."

      No where did I argue that - but it's pretty clear in the text of the Constituion. It's just that the Constitution affords the press a rather special form of protection in the First Amendment. Here let me quote the relevant section of the Constitution;

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

      See that rather broad blanket protection the press got? The press isn't required to be "reasonable." That's what the Constitution actually says. I have got no problem if you want to amend it. Just don't say that press isn't afford rights - it is.

    13. Re:Misleading story by Kohath · · Score: 1

      SO the NY Times doesn't have that right?

      The right to refuse to testify and to refuse to honor subpeonas in a criminal investigation? No. They don't have that right. Nor does anyone else. It's not a right.

    14. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      Except of course for that rather broad protection afforded the press in the first amendment of the Constitution.

      Let me quote it for you.

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

      And yes it possible to refuse to honor a subpeona - you can refuse to honor a subpeona on a number of constitional grounds. The most commonly evoked one is the 5th. So apparently to your mind the 5th amendment stopped existing?

      BSD

    15. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      I suggest you spend some time reading the Federalist papers. Anonymous sources and pseudonyms were quite common in colonial America. Hence the broad blank provisions afforded the press in the Constitution.

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

      I am gonna keep quoting the Constitution till you actually read it.

      BSD

    16. Re:Misleading story by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Saying "the constitution says X and it means X, Y, and Z" isn't really an argument, no matter how many times you repeat it.

    17. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      I am just quoting the document itself. Is that the problem?

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

      There you go. Dang founding fathers.

    18. Re:Misleading story by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      Libel and slander are crimes. So is sedition.

      Free speech and freedom of the press mean that nobody can prevent you from speaking or writing what you wish. They don't mean that there are no repercussions. I can't hurt someone and get away with it just because of this. (I _can_ hurt someone and get away with it using the First Amendment if I'm only telling the truth, though; libel and slander don't apply in that case. Sedition still does, most likely.)

    19. Re:Misleading story by necro81 · · Score: 1

      However, as the article points out, the criminality of the reporters' actions isn't really being examined. It's strange, too, because I'd say that there's something criminal in there.

      The judges at the appeals court were not ruling on the guilt or innocence of the reporters and their alleged tip-off or interference in the terrorist financing investigation. The issue is not whether the reporters have the constitutional right to mess-up an ongoing investigation. The issue of the ruling is whether the courts can compel the reporters (or rather, the NYT) to hand over information about the reporters' sources, which appears much less clear-cut.

    20. Re:Misleading story by nuggz · · Score: 1

      The press is free, nobody is arguing that.

      What we are arguing is that simply being a reporter doesn't someone remove your responsibility for your own actions.

    21. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      Sedition? What country do you live in? Which acts a seditious? How is this event related?

      Libel and slander are not "crimes" but actionable by civil suit. No prosecutor has put someone in jail for slander or libel. The difference is clear here, the person slandered or libeled brings a civil suit.

      BSD

    22. Re:Misleading story by Uhlek · · Score: 1

      The problem is your interpretation of that statement. It is not the press that is being targeted here, it is the people who leaked the information in the first place. Leaking sensitive government information, except in very specific whistle-blower situations, is a CRIME. Someone committed a crime, and just because the crime was committed via leaking to the press doesn't automatically make the reporters not liable to be subpoenaed.

      Using Watergate as an example is stupid. First off, Woodward and Bernstein took every precaution to keep the government from finding out who it was. Second, Deep Throat was leaking information about GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS COMMITTING A CRIME.

      In this case, some jackass in the police department tipped reporters off to a future raid, and the reporters irresponsibly used that information. Because of the freedom of the press, the reporters cannot be prosecuted for what they did, which is a good thing, big-picture wise, despite the fact that they deserve to have their teeth knocked in.

      "Freedom of the Press" means exactly that. Not "Freedom to hide criminals"

      Whoever leaked that information, though, is a security risk inside a government organization and needs to be punished or terminated for what they did. Not only did they interfere with law enforcement, but they put those law enforcement officers' lives at risk.

      This was *not* an honest employee tipping off reporters to something the government doing something wrong -- those sorts of people are already protected under the whistleblower act. This was a (presumably) dishonest employee leaking information to the press for (presumably) dishonest reasons, probably a favor the reporter may owe them in the future or maybe even money.

    23. Re:Misleading story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then if that is the case the reporters should be arrested for any one of a multiple of charges, either impeading the course of justice, interfearing with an investigation, aiding and abetting so forth. None of which would require them revealing their sources, so why have they not been?

      You see the problem is that any ruleing made here does not affect this case alone but rather sets precedent, something that will influence future cases heavyly. In this case the reporters and the sources were in the wrong (gov was doing nothing wrong, reporters tipped off the suspects), but what if say the next whistle blower is the one who reveals that Bush directly autorised the CIA kidnapping,toucher and murder of "suspected" terrorists, like how long do you think he will last if the press have to reveal his name?

    24. Re:Misleading story by Kohath · · Score: 1

      ... Hence the broad blank provisions afforded the press in the Constitution.

      [Redundant, constitution quote deleted]

      I am gonna keep quoting the Constitution till you actually read it.


      You seem to be arguing that the press has an unlimited right to do anything they want. Murder their competition, for example. I disagree.

    25. Re:Misleading story by Thanatopsis · · Score: 1

      I would like to point out that there is a conflict here - namely the conflict between the first amendment and an ongoing investigation. Many of the posters here have misstated constitutional rights and quite frankly don't understand many of the rights afforded to them under the Constitution. Here's the problem if we chip away at these right, then we might not get a whistle blower on the next Watergate. For example who ever leaked the fact that we were taking prisoners to sites in Eastern Europe without any due process was a hero. That person could also be prosecuted under this very same method.

      The problem is that the reporters were pinheads here. So according to your logic the person who leaked the Pentagon papers should go to jail? Just wondering where you draw the line.

    26. Re:Misleading story by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      The right to a free press is (in my understanding) a right to write, for public consumption.

      You're wrong. A press can be used for private consumption, for example.

      It is not a right to take any random action in order to obtain facts for said writing.

      Of course not.

      If I have been assigned to write a story about the psychological condition of an executioner, am I justified in grabbing someone and "executing" them in the furtherance of my story? Of course not; it's both illegal and wrong.

      Sure, murder is illegal. Speech is not. In fact, the 1st Amendment clearly speaks of Congress not abridging the right to speak. Hence, I'd be interested if you drew a better analogy to try to justify your position. As it stands, I've not heard of a reasonably justification or analogy that would somehow dissolve the right of the reporter to speak.

      Reporters are not magic special people.

      Guite true.

      They should abide by the same laws

      No kidding.

      and rules of reasonable conduct as the rest of us.

      Uh, yes and no. They *should* abide by rules of reasonable conduct, but there *shouldn't* be any legal consequences for ignoring them. It's unreasonable to codify rules of conduct into law and is the hallmark of a tolitarian regime.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    27. Re:Misleading story by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should read it yourself. And in actual context.

      As has been pointed out elsewhere, the press in the Constitution is NOT the Press/4th Estate of today. It was the phyiscal means for representing speech, ie a printing press.

      THERE ARE NO SPECIAL TERMS FOR JOURNALISTS IN THE CONSTITUTION.

      They are only citizens like the rest of us. They can get just as abused by the powers that be as the rest of us. And that is what they should be reporting. Not whining that their mis-interpretation affords them special rights.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    28. Re:Misleading story by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      As it stands, I've not heard of a reasonably justification or analogy that would somehow dissolve the right of the reporter to speak.

      The reporter is allowed to report. However, the reporter can't be writing a story on whether movie theaters are unsafe and run into a movie theater and yell "fire" in order to see how well the theater exits work. Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is not protected speech. If you want arguments to support that statement, I'll dig up my old lay books with the cites for the speech cases in front of the Supreme Court. The issue isn't the reporting of the event, but in causing a change in the event by interference, and whether that interference makes one a participant rather than a reporter. Someone doing nothing more than "speaking" could become an accessory to the crime after the fact by sharing information with the criminals and shielding information from the authorities, or other tampering in an ongoing investigation.

      Criminal conspiracies are nothing more than "speech" related to crimes, yet are treated differently than the crimes themselves. Should conspiracy to commit murder be legal?

    29. Re:Misleading story by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It's just that the Constitution affords the press a rather special form of protection in the First Amendment. Here let me quote the relevant section of the Constitution;

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."


      "The Press" is a sociatal invention post-dating the Constitution. "the press" is what is being mentioned in the Constitution. You are referring to "The Press" as having special protections. However, it is the right of any person to make a pamphlet that is covered, not the right of an employee of Rupert Murdoc over someone employeed as a janitor. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives an employee of a newspaper any more protection than I have. The freedom of pamphlet creation is the same for my home as the New York Times, and that is the point of the free press.

    30. Re:Misleading story by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      The reporter is allowed to report. However, the reporter can't be writing a story on whether movie theaters are unsafe and run into a movie theater and yell "fire" in order to see how well the theater exits work.

      See, a much better analogy. At least you're involving speech this time.

      Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is not protected speech. If you want arguments to support that statement, I'll dig up my old lay books with the cites for the speech cases in front of the Supreme Court.

      Right you are. For better or for worse, the Supreme Court has ruled that imminent danger speech and obscenity are both not forms of protected speech. Now, can you reasonable show that telling suspected terrorists they're being watched is an "imminent danger" speech? Note, imminent danger doesn't include things that may lead to a crime in the course of days or weeks in the future. "Fire" in a theater is likely to lead to harm, if not death, to people in the course of a matter of minutes. The same can be said of speech that could spark a riot. The fact that one informs a suspect they are being watched may induce them to flee from authorities, but to claim it creates an imminent danger would be quite ludicrous. So, you're closer to the mark, but you're still not drawing a straight analogy showing how the speech should be a crime, as it otherwise isn't.

      The issue isn't the reporting of the event, but in causing a change in the event by interference, and whether that interference makes one a participant rather than a reporter.

      Uh, why does that matter? As has been stated by others, being a reporter doesn't make you a magical being different than others. Simply *covering* the news is an act of participation (I guess if you've got a sniper camera and sniper mike, you can stalk people without that being the case, but good luck getting the information you're interested in that way). Further, reporters aren't journalists. And what you're subscribing to is a journalist creedo, not some sort of law that differentiates the "people" from the "journalists". Journalists try to cover the story as much as possible without interfering with the story because they're not interested in being the story. But, clearly reporters have repeatedly shown that they're more interested in making themselves look good than having a realistic account of what they're covering (look no further than "To Catch A Preditor" to demonstrate not only a reporter participating but also informing the suspect before the police arrest the suspect).

      Someone doing nothing more than "speaking" could become an accessory to the crime after the fact by sharing information with the criminals and shielding information from the authorities, or other tampering in an ongoing investigation.

      Very true, and such laws are almost always based upon intent. And to me, this is a very serious problem with the way the law works in the US today. On the one hand, shouting "fire" in a burning theater is generally okay, but if one shouts "fire" in a burning theater with the belief that the tramplings will kill more than quietly ushering people out, shouting "fire" can revert back to non-protected speech. In a similar way, a reporter who is interested in covering a subject and "reporting the breaking news" can in many cases lure people in who might already be being investigated and tip them off to their behavior being trackable (and any suggest that getting an okay from the police to do it, with them standing in the wings, would make the reporters action a police action, effectively voiding any charges on the grounds of entrapment, seriously damaging any investigation against the person, an obvious obstruction of justice). Overall, one is left to deal with the "thought crimes" one commits and the ability of the prosecutor to convince the jurors that specific thoughts occurred rather than specific actions occurred.

      Criminal conspiracies are nothing more than "speech" related to crimes, yet are treated differentl

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    31. Re:Misleading story by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Uh, why does that matter? As has been stated by others, being a reporter doesn't make you a magical being different than others.

      Ah, you missed my intention with those words. Reporting on a bank robber by following them for 3 weeks before the robery to see what they do, being there during the robery and watching, then accompanying them through the getaway is the type of reporting that I was talking about. At some point, being that close to the action, one would be indistinguishable from the criminal. Picture a reporter planning the robbery. Bouncing robbery ideas off the "real" robbers, techniques, bank robbing best practices and such. Where does the reporting end and the participation begin. Any short snapshot of the conversation would lead one to believe that the reporter is a member of the team. So, can someone become a co-conspirator just through reporting? I can envision scenarios where the answer would be yes.

      Should conspiracy to commit murder be legal?

      And to get all pedantic on you, conspiracy is defined in Law as "An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action." So, asking me literally if a crime should be legal, I'd have to say no.

      I don't understand your misunderstanding. I wasn't discussing whether murder is or isn't or should or shouldn't be legal. I wasn't asking whether "an agreement between two people to commit murder, a crime" is illegal. I'm asking if you, personally, think that a wholely verbal "argeement between two people to commit murder, a crime" *should* (in your opinion) be illegal. And that is a question you answered.

      So, it looks like we agree on how the law is executed. And, based off that, it seems that a reporter can be charged for what is essentially "illegal speech". The point of disagreement seems to be on *whether* certain speech should or should not be illegal, and arguing that is as productive as tossing am Israeli and Palestenian in a room and telling them not to come out until they agree on what to do with the West Bank - lots of yelling, maybe a death or two, but never anyone changing their opinion.

    32. Re:Misleading story by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      I don't understand your misunderstanding.

      The problem isn't so much that I misunderstood you. It was that you were asking a question in a context that already defined an act as illegal. It is this reason that I pedantically discussed what exactly a conspiracy was. And I further answered what probable intention was, to know whether I thought verbal agreements could be in themselves illegal.

      The point of disagreement seems to be on *whether* certain speech should or should not be illegal, and arguing that is as productive as tossing am Israeli and Palestenian in a room and telling them not to come out until they agree on what to do with the West Bank - lots of yelling, maybe a death or two, but never anyone changing their opinion.

      Agreed, as such is based on an opinion. I'm just sad that the Supreme Courts opinions have reduced those protections laid out in the first amendment by making certain speech illegal in itself.

      Having said that, a little rant:

      It sets the dangerous precedent of, for example, making those who make sufficiently intelligent AI (but a non-sentient/sapient variety, so no worries of the AI itself being inditable) to be charged with co-conspiracy for not putting sufficient restraint into their systems to prevent the abuse of such a system for crimes (somewhat like how video game makers are being targetted for violent/sexual video games, even before evidence that such video games even cause crime has been found; and yes, it's only minors at the moment, but if the logic holds for minors, I don't see how it wouldn't apply to adults as well as a means to low crime rates). After all, the reporter who has no intention of aiding suspects but invariably does is not far from the programmer who makes a device with similar effect--a reporter who used an audio recorder/player to provide information wouldn't be able to claim that the audio device somehow abdicates themselves from responsibility, as in the end it's the speech in the device that would be ruled illegal, not the use of the speech by the criminals; it just happens that the use helps demonstrate why it is illegal. And my silly example is a prime reason intent is such a driving force in trials today.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    33. Re:Misleading story by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      After all, the reporter who has no intention of aiding suspects but invariably does is not far from the programmer who makes a device with similar effect

      For one, charging people with a crime for "contributing to the delenquance of a minor" or somesuch is currently possible, whether the contribution is intentional or not. So, under current indications, it would be reasonable to charge a programmer for such contribution, or a reporter than took minors to a strip club to report on their behaviors there.

      Personally, I don't like the idea of intent. It is over-used to let negligence be dismissed as unintentional, yet the effect is the same. If you are an incompetent driver, you know it before you fall asleep and run over the pile of people. However, every case I've heard of with a person over 65 unintentionally ramming a building or crowd resulting in fatalities has never ended with a conviction. Yet the few I've heard of where a person rammed a building on purpose, there were no fatalities and they did serve time. So, explain to me why an old man in Austin that falls asleep and drives into a crows on 6th Street, leaving dead people behind in his wake is not negligent while someone that tries to hurt someone but fails is criminal. Oh, and because the man wasn't charged, the state had no ability to revoke his license. So he kills, there is no indication he won't do it again, and he is licensed to operate the machinery that he killed with. Again, no discussion over whether it is right or wrong, just that in comparison to what is being done with others, it does not seem equitable.

    34. Re:Misleading story by Ritchie70 · · Score: 1
      I would say that they are merely making speech (spoken word) and press (written word) equivalently protected. That doesn't mean that a reporter (the press) gets to interfere in criminal investigations (break laws) as part of their protected nature.

      No question, a reporter should be able to report on an event (the raid) after it occurs. It's the interference with the actions of law enforcement (the phone calls prior to the raid) that I cannot understand how you believe is protected (or how it is different than criminal conspiracy.)

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
  28. mod parent up! by sockman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    News paper publishers and reporters in general, like cops, feel they are "special" and no laws apply to them, only to average Joe. Plus I'm tired of all the hate in politics and journalism.

    1. Re:mod parent up! by Sique · · Score: 1

      No. No. No. Cops are special. They have special rights no one else has. And that's why they should be closely monitored for an abuse of those rights. Journalists have no rights you don't also have. Because everyone can be a journalist. It's the journalism itself which got special protection from the Constitution. It's called free press there. So if you are doing something journalistic, like publishing a story you investigated for, you get protection for this from the Constitution. Everyone is entitled to this protection, not only employees of certain newspapers or stations, as long as she is doing journalistic work.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
  29. not unexpected by phrostie · · Score: 1

    the past few years have seen an increase in bad journalism.
    fake stores, bias(left and right),stories that were bought and paid for by companies trying to astro turf the people,,,,,,,,

    like many industries if they are unwilling to maintain their own professionalism, then this was bound to happen.

    not saying i approve, but many other industries have to deal with similar problems.

  30. Anonymous sources by WarDog07 · · Score: 1

    One question I have: if communication between reporter and source is truly anonymous then how does any reporter know if the information is legitmate?

    Probably the same way that the cops validate anonymous tips... do a little legwork to verify it yourself. If your anonymous source provides you with information, and you verify it; it must be true.

    Otherwise, you are right, there would be no way to know it. Hopefully, a reporter (this includes bloggers) would not publish information that they do not know to be true. If they do that, one would hope that the public at large has enough brains to not trust that particular news outlet.

  31. Actually, in this country we called it the OSS ... by mmell · · Score: 1

    then the OSI, now finally it's morphed into . . . erm, uh . . . what did the old OSI turn into after that? Anybody remember? Did it ultimately become our CIA? I find I can't remember, ever since that weekend at the hospital in Virginia . . . or was that a weekend drinking tequila in Sonora? Damn! It's almost as though I was force-fed psychoactive drugs and - something - was said to me over and over. Why can't I remember?

  32. Re:Why does the media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They do it because they are communists. They are trying to sap our precious bodily fluids!

  33. MOD PARENT UP! by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You know what really pisses me off about these things? Half the Americans here are saying stuff like "oh well, it's only an isolated incident" (in the police case), or "oh well, it's not like it matters anyway" (in the election(!) case), or "oh well, in this case it's okay 'cause of 'national security' (think of the children)" (in this case). What they fail to do is put it all together, and see what it all adds up to.

    If only one of these things had happened, yeah, it wouldn't be too much to get concerned about. But all our rights are being eroded every fucking day. That's not an "isolated incident," that's a head-long sprint towards totalitarian fascism!

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  34. Ever see an old TV show called "Babylon 5"? by mmell · · Score: 1
    Our problem is that we don't have a Sheridan, a Delenn, Rangers or White Stars to stand up here. Otherwise, JMS was a lot more on-target back then than I like to think about. Go President Clark - err, I mean, Bush.

    Oh, well . . . at least there's no Psi Corps (yet).

  35. Freedom of the Press by Azeron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Freedom of the Press is not the right to withold vital information from a criminal/civil case. It is the right to talk about what is going on by publishing information. Reporters have no more right to withold information than me or you -- They are not "Super Citizens" or a superior class with "Special Rights". I personal think its a pretty sh*tty thing that someone can use a reporter to slander or defame someone (and that is what is going on in the vast majority of cases of "undisclosed sources") and use reporters as thier proxies. If someone has something to say, they should stand up and say it and take responsibility for what they say

    1. Re:Freedom of the Press by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      Fascinating, so if someone has something to say that could easily get them fired or killed they should stand right up and say it? Are you against the witness protection program as well?

      Freedom of the Press is not the right to withold vital information from a criminal/civil case. It is the right to talk about what is going on by publishing information. Reporters have no more right to withold information than me or you -- They are not "Super Citizens" or a superior class with "Special Rights". I personal think its a pretty sh*tty thing that someone can use a reporter to slander or defame someone (and that is what is going on in the vast majority of cases of "undisclosed sources") and use reporters as thier proxies. If someone has something to say, they should stand up and say it and take responsibility for what they say
    2. Re:Freedom of the Press by Azeron · · Score: 1

      Correct me and I am wrong, but the witness protection program is for people who stood up and taken responsibility for what they are saying. Those who try to hide from what have done/said don't need the witness protection program, because we don't know who they are.

      Aside from that point, I think most people, as I surely do, that you have a right to stand up to accuser. Those that hide behind reporters deny the accussed that fundemental right.

    3. Re:Freedom of the Press by Krojack · · Score: 1

      Arn't you forgetting that "Freedom of the Press" means the press can do anything it wants when it whats and how it wants to even if it goes against morals and against the very country its in?

    4. Re:Freedom of the Press by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      Apparently my earlier response was too hypothetical for you. Allow me to be a little more blunt.

      Say you blow the whistle on immoral or illegal practices within an organization. Publicly doing so can quite easily get you fired , blacklisted or in some cases dead. The only way for the average person to avoid this is by leaking the information through a third party who is both willing and able to preserve your anonymity. Who is truly the one not taking responsibility here?

      http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories /nation/12/11whistleblower.html
      http://pwp.lincs.net/sanjour/Endangered.htm
      http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgiancana.h tm


      Correct me and I am wrong, but the witness protection program is for people who stood up and taken responsibility for what they are saying. Those who try to hide from what have done/said don't need the witness protection program, because we don't know who they are. Aside from that point, I think most people, as I surely do, that you have a right to stand up to accuser. Those that hide behind reporters deny the accussed that fundemental right.
    5. Re:Freedom of the Press by Azeron · · Score: 1

      No, You weren't being too hypothetical, your charecterization of the winess protection program was just plan wrong.

      Am I saying that being able to speak without being held responsible has ever resulted in anything good happening, no. I am just saying its wrong that someoene whould be allowed to accuse someone of doing something illegal or criminal without having the right to defend themselves by using reporters as proxy and a shield.

      If I knew a witness who told me who murdered your mother, wouldn't you andd the accused think you had a right to know who that witness was and question them? What would you think of my claim of being a member of the pressprotecting me from having to testify then?

      As for the limited instance of the whistleblower, if you witness a crime, and are part of the organization that committed that crime, you have an obligation to report that crime to the authorities PERIOD. If your company punishes you for reporting, thats called witness tampering, and it is a crime wiith stiff penalities, as well as a tort where you can recover punatitive damages as well as government aid. I know it may seem harsh, but sometimes thats the way llife is. If my company was stealing or posining the water, I would report them.

      so the neext time you decide to hide behind a reporter, just remember, you have no more protection to your identity than if you told anyone else.

    6. Re:Freedom of the Press by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      Not really, no. Say (purely hypothetically) John Gotti had your mother killed and I knew it. If I testify about it my family will be killed. Should I put your dead mother before my currently alive family? That does not make any sense, ok? I'll take the possible 5 years for perjury in a heartbeat. That may not be justice, but it's certainly common sense.

      In the case of a denied witness to a defendant, please remember that it is the responsibility of a prosecutor to prove that the defendant has commited a crime. How can he do this without witnesses or strong evidence?

      As for your comments on whistleblowing, if you'd read through the links I posted, you'd note that 'obligation' or not, there are many limitations in current law. Witness tampering does not come into it at all. In most states we have 'at will' employment, which means you can pretty much be fired at any time. If the court decides that you were fired for an illegal reason, you are eligible for reinstatement, but that is a big if, and remember that the majority of these cases aren't even heard for 5+ years. Can you survive for 5+ years without an income (and paying legal fees), even if you meet the rather strict filing requirements? Even if you win, you've probably made yourself unemployable in your chosen field, and your reinstatement is unlikely to be much fun.

      If I knew a witness who told me who murdered your mother, wouldn't you andd the accused think you had a right to know who that witness was and question them? What would you think of my claim of being a member of the pressprotecting me from having to testify then?
    7. Re:Freedom of the Press by Azeron · · Score: 1

      1) no one ever said life was easy.
      2) People have rights, even people you don't like.
      3) the question is whether journalists have a right or should have a right to withhold thier sources.
      4) in no circumstance that you provided have you demonstrated that a right to withhold sources exsists or should exsist. You simply say that it is difficult at times but
      5) Just because something is difficult for you, doesn't mean you should be able to unilaterally strip away the fundemental right to confront your accusser
      6) if your company fires you for reporting a crime, the DA will be all over thier as*, and there will be no wait to go to trial, the DA will force them to settle or slap on even stiffer penalities and fines.
      7) I don't know what employer would hold it agianst you that you turned in a bunch of thier competitors as crooks/fiends, I know my company wouldn't. If they would, you are probably in the wrong line of work.
      8) An employee who is fired because they reported a crime is entitled to back wages plus punative damages in every state of the union. they might even require the corporation to fire the "bad actors" in the company as well.

    8. Re:Freedom of the Press by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      So you're saying that people should (potentially) be killed/blackballed because 'people have rights, even people you don't like'. Sorry, that does not compute. If you'd read those links you might have noticed that one of those blackballing employers is in fact the US government. Thanks for playing, please try our home game.

      4) in no circumstance that you provided have you demonstrated that a right to withhold sources exsists or should exsist. You simply say that it is difficult at times but 5) Just because something is difficult for you, doesn't mean you should be able to unilaterally strip away the fundemental right to confront your accusser
    9. Re:Freedom of the Press by Azeron · · Score: 1

      I am trying to find where I stated "People should be killed", perhaps you could point that out. well I guess "people have rights, even people you don't like" is a typical American attitude, you know with our insistence on certain inalienable rights getting in the way.

  36. Federal Shield law? Riiiiight... by Gryffin · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's long past time for a federal shield law.

    From this federal government? Sounds like you've been patronizing those drug dealers mentioned.

    Welcome to the new reality: the government gets full access to your business, but you get no access into their business.

    Between this, easily-hackable voting machines, and yet more police abuses, it's been a really bad week for the Constitution.

    --
    Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
  37. Already true by andrewman327 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I am a reporter for my college paper with a penchant for investigative pieces. I already meet with sources in secret. Once I met with someone on a bridge over a highway for privacy's sake. Even where there are journalist shield laws, they do not protect the source. People who leak information (especially in law enforcement) can get in incredible trouble without the journalist having to reveal anything.


    If you have read or watched All the President's Men, you will remember the secrecy that went into their meetings. Even though that is largely exagerated, it is not that far off the mark.

    --
    Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
    1. Re:Already true by Software · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If there's no shield law, meeting with sources in secret isn't going to help. If you know their name, and you're compelled to testify, you have to give it up or go to jail. It doesn't matter if you met with them in person, over a disposable cellphone, via IM, etc.

    2. Re:Already true by andrewman327 · · Score: 1

      The trick is not quoting or refering to the source in any of your articles and instead just using him to guide you in the right direction. My paper is lucky enough never to have been sued.

      --
      Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
  38. Re:Obstruction of Justice by vertinox · · Score: 1

    If the news reports information that was ordered not to be released and doesn't come forward with the source then this is obstruction of justice.

    Or patriotism or terrorism depending on how you look at it.

    People that think there is such a thing as "law of the land" and "justice" should be on the lookout for those who pervert justice and the law into something that are clearly not.

    When you are concerned more about the law itself and not the spirit of the law, you often get blinded to this downfall.

    Of course seeking a spirit unto itself at the cost of the law is also bad... Where as you willfully ignore the law to seek justice or your own vision of it.

    Sometimes the moral thing to do is not the legal thing to do and vice versa.

    If you lived under a government or country in which if you revealed your sources you knew they would be hauled away in the middle of the night never to heard of again (either through mafia, government agents, or a paramilitary groups), then you have some moral ground to stand on for breaking the law.

    I'm not saying this is the case, but "obstruction of justice" clause never trumps the inalienable rights of man.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  39. MOD PARENT NUTTY by Pollardito · · Score: 1
    Time to face it. Bush drew a line in the sand and said you are either with us or with the terrorists. The moonbats didn't need two full seconds to decide which side of the line they were going to stand on, and while at first it was more a case of simply being on the opposite side from Chimpy, they are starting to realize that Bush was right, and once on the side of the terrorists they might as well start swingin for their team. After all it was an easy enough slide, almost all of the left/msm are pro PLO and anti-semitic (even the jews in the media tend towards the left winger self hating jew variety), they hate America and western civilization with a passion equal to UBL himself although for totally different reasons and have zero moral restraints. Most of them spent the 60s through early 90s fighting passionately against the West in the service of the Soviets and when it comes to insane evil is UBL and Irans mad mullahs really worse masters/allies than the heirs of Stalin?
    1. Re:MOD PARENT NUTTY by jafac · · Score: 1

      Call him nutty all you want.

      Unfortunately, it's all-too-common a delusion among the Rush Limbaugh listening public these days.

      Yes. Bush drew a line in the sand. Only those who didn't understand what a "false dichotomy" is, decided to stand on the side of the racist corporate whore war profiteers out of a craven fear of being called a "terrorist supporter".

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  40. That's just mean. by xlr8ed · · Score: 1

    Compairing Reporters to Drug Dealers...you know Drug Dealers have feeling too.

  41. If you get your news on the US from Slashdot by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please stop forming any opinions on what goes on here. Seriously, the news-ish bites on Slashdot are not a good way to get your information on the state of the US. To name just a few problems:

    1) Slashdot is highly sensationalistic when it comes to political stories. They tend to report things in a way that casts an extreme negative light on the situation, leaving out relivants mitigating facts and such.

    2) They tend to not check sources and facts very well. Heck they don't even tend to check if they've already posted something very well. You cannot rely on teh information as all that accurate.

    3) Slashdot has very anti-government, even perhaps anarchistic tendancies. They see most any effort to control things as a massive problem.

    Well a site like that, you don't really want to use for your news, just like you probably wouldn't want to rely on a more right-wing, pro government site as they are going to downplay anything bad the government does.

    Yes, bad things happen in the US. Always has been, probably always will be. Police abuse their power, the government has corruption problems, etc. However I don't care where you live, you do a little research, you'll find your country has the same kinds of problems. There's no magical perfect bastion of freedom. All countries have faults.

    However the US is not a dictatorship, we have not fallen in to a police state, etc. There are disturbing trends right now, things that many of us are working to fight against, but it's not like we are in the horrible way, which a revolution is the only way out of. If you believe that, well then you've been getting your news from the wrong sources.

    If you are truly interested in what's going on, you need to spend some time on it. You need to get information form multiple sources, you need to try and hear all sides of the story, you need to make sure you understand all the facts. Don't run off screaming the end of the world when Slashdot reports an incident of rights abuses.

  42. Established media already have supercitizen status by swb · · Score: 1

    It's called "press credentials" and have existed for some time (remember the newspaperman with a little white card that read PRESS stuck in his hat?). People with press credentials get to snoop around crime scenes, access closed areas, and so on in ways that ordinary citizens can't.

    Sometimes these credentials are literal credentials (ie, an ID badge from their employer) and sometimes they're issued credentials (White House, for example). This gives them better access and in some ways better responses from people.

    I agree that freedom of speech and the press should be universal and not restricted to the etablished corporate news media, but it seems there needs to be some practical way of differentiating between people honestly pursuing journalism "in the public interest" and the merely curious or aspiring. You can't fit an unlimited number of people in a briefing room or allow anyone who wants it access to crime or disaster scenes.

  43. Preventing Evidence illegal? by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

    I know it's illegal to destroy evidence in an ongoing investigation.

    But is it illegal to conduct yourself in a way that won't create evidence specifically for the purpose of avoiding a future investigation?

    I hope not.

    1. Re:Preventing Evidence illegal? by Krojack · · Score: 1

      If there no paper trail then maybe this falls under the "You have the right to remain silent"

  44. It DOES make an argurment by nuggz · · Score: 1

    Actually saying "the constitution says X and it means X, Y, and Z" really is an argument.

    In this case it just happens to be a pretty weak one.

  45. Public discussion by nuggz · · Score: 1

    It's just a public discussion.
    The think with functioning democracies (or democratic republics or whatever) is that they seem to be at odds with themselves and in a perpetual state of chaos and confusing.

    To people from more authoritarian systems it seems crazy that anything works at all.

    I would argue free discussion, debate and the apparent chaos is what gives real strength, instead of the mere appearance of strength.

  46. Federal Shield Law by chicago_scott · · Score: 1

    Even if a federal shield law for journalists were to be passed, it still seem niave for a journalist to rely on it for protection of his or her sources.

    When communicating sensitive information always take procautions to protect your information and always assume that someone is listening that shouldn't be. When using any means of public communication (telephone, the Internet, the Post Office, UPS, etc.) you are literally handing your message to a third party (or parties) to pass along to the final destination. While encryption makes it more difficult for a middle-man, it is by no means compeltely secure.

    The decision to make is which is more imporatant: convenience in transitting the information or security of the information being transmitted?

  47. The good news is by gone.fishing · · Score: 1

    The good news is that one in three judges actually gets it.

  48. What we really need ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is a law that requires every story printed to carry a (R) or (D) next to
    the writer's name so that we know their political affiliation. Same as
    they do whenever they show any politician on TV. That way
    we can decide whether the story is worth believing or not.

  49. There should be a super-mod on slashdot by hackstraw · · Score: 1

    Or a sticky, pinned, or something special attached to a post like this.

    Did the poster write, posit, or add anything? No, it was merely an observation from an outsider that basically says, WTF????

    I'm sure everybody has heard the crap from older people about "Back in the good ol days..." and "its surely not like it used to be..." and similar, but I do live here in the US, and I am witnessing a digression right in front of my eyes.

    Yes, we do have issues with our police force, our elections, and our "free" press. Also, to date, our police, our elections, and our press are still better than probably 90+% of the world's population, but its the systematic demoralization of said institutions that is bothering me and others.

    This trend appears to have begun in this country after WWII, when we began thinking that we were "the shit", the bully on the block, the world police, NATO, the economic center, or however you want to phrase it (all have truths to them).

    Since WWII, we have been in a state of chronic war and debt. Kinda like a macrocosm of the population inside, eh?

    Oh, and I read yesterday where the organization that was set up to rebuild the WTC complex after the 9/11/01 attacks was calling it quits after 5 years of nothing. Well, lets rephrase the nothing. More like after spending $2 billion dollars of our money with nothing in return. Yes, that is $400 million dollars a year. To put this on a scale that people can relate to. The WTC complex was insured for $3.5 billion, and Silverstein tried to get $7.0 billion because 2 buildings were demolished (actually 3, but who's counting?)

    I saw a Penn and Teller episode about this same thing, and they were comparing this lack of rebuilding and everything to how casinos in Las Vegas can get torn down and rebuilt overnight, yet the financial center of the US can't get anything besides nothing after spending over $2 billion?

    Makes me think anyway...

    1. Re:There should be a super-mod on slashdot by masterhibb · · Score: 1

      That's what happens when politics are involved. The difference in Vegas is that there's only one entity in charge, they're spending their money, and they have a clear goal of seeing a return on that investment.

      Besides, who really thought that the idea of a memorial for the victims of a terrorist attack that encouraged visitors to see the whole thing from the terrorists' points of view would really fly?

    2. Re:There should be a super-mod on slashdot by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      Besides, who really thought that the idea of a memorial for the victims of a terrorist attack that encouraged visitors to see the whole thing from the terrorists' points of view would really fly?

      Excellent point. But I would have come to that conclusion for a mere $500 million, saving the US population $1.5 billion and 4.99 years.

    3. Re:There should be a super-mod on slashdot by masterhibb · · Score: 1

      You obviously failed out of bureaucracy school.

  50. Leaking natitional secrets is illegal by Koby77 · · Score: 1
    As the dissenting judge noted, this kind of erosion of press protections will have reporters 'contacting sources the way I understand drug dealers do to reach theirs -- by use of clandestine cell phones and meeting in darkened doorways.'


    Similar to working with drug dealers, reporters working with inside sources to leak government secrets is ILLEGAL.

    1.) The reporters do have the freedom to publish under the 1st amendment, but the Constition gives no right to press secrecy.

    2.) The government leaker is committing a crime. Because reporters don't have the right to secrecy, they can be used to uncover the lawbreaker.
    1. Re:Leaking natitional secrets is illegal by Krojack · · Score: 1

      I agree.. all sources should be public. Just like in school text books and other articals. If you use quotes from other books/people then you need to include a section in the back that tells where you got the info and gives credit to the sources. No more of this "from an outside source" crap.

      The media and press are always using the "Freedom of Information Act". Maybe its time to impose a freedom of information act on the media and press

    2. Re:Leaking natitional secrets is illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "all sources should be public"

      If you think that should be so, than that should allso be true for police informants.

      Now lets think : how long do you think it will take for any source to clam-up like the proverbial mussel, making it impossible for the public what the gouverment is upto (which is bad), as well as for the police to know what the criminals are upto (which allso is bad) ?

      Or do you think that equality is good, as long as the gouverment is more equal than its citizens ?

  51. And how did the NYT find out? by bigtrike · · Score: 1

    How did the NYT know the feds were about to seize someone's assets? It's likely that someone else broke the law in disclosing that information, not the NYT. If you'd prefer a country which only allows its press to print what is convenient, I hear Cuba has great weather.

    1. Re:And how did the NYT find out? by Orne · · Score: 1

      Two islamic charities were about to be investigated by the FBI. The allegation is that someone in the FBI broke the news to the reporter(s) prior to the event (not a crime), and the reporter(s) contacted the charities informing them they were about to be raided. Seems pretty cut and dry that the reporter(s) were interfering with an investigation, which now becomes a crime.

    2. Re:And how did the NYT find out? by bigtrike · · Score: 1

      The allegation is that someone in the FBI broke the news to the reporter(s) prior to the event (not a crime),

      ...but leaking information of an ongoing investigation without authorization to parties who have not signed confidentiality agreements doesn't count as interfering.

  52. Question Marks? by usquared · · Score: 1

    Stop posting headlines that end with question marks?

    1. Re:Question Marks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you get it?

      If you end a sentence with a question mark you can say anything and it's not untrue.

      Slashdot has relied on this method to make dull stories look controversial for about a decade now.

      George Bush fucks animals?

      My 14-year-old brother came home from school today and said he heard George Bush fucks animals. Under the "No Smoke Without Fire" principle this is probably therefore true. What do you think? Does George Bush probably fuck animals?

  53. And the coverup is better... by bigtrike · · Score: 1

    Anyone else find it funny that the trial of scooter libby has been delayed until nearly a month after mid-term elections?

  54. Re:Obstruction of Justice by zacronos · · Score: 1
    Information is just as tangable as material goods.
    Um... What? Isn't that like saying "Concrete is just as edible as fruit." One clearly is, and one clearly is not.
  55. Press License by Descalzo · · Score: 1
    While I agree that licensure of reporters is a BAD idea, I feel I should point out that the government has mandated licensure of doctors, lawyers, teachers, and other professions that have a huge impact on our lives and freedoms. I don't see the kind of bad effects you describe.

    I think, though, that the mere possibility of such problems should be enough to scare us away.

    --
    I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
  56. Wasn't that by olddotter · · Score: 1

    Wasn't that how it used to be? Or have I just been watching too many movies? I thought that was what created the near mythical (and recently reveiled) "deep throat" source.

    Time to review the X-files "Plausible Deniability."

  57. wait... by daft_one · · Score: 1

    They can grow condoms from stem cells now? Wow, that tech is really coming along!

  58. So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the law made did not affect the confidentiality of the press (so that law was not unconstitutional) and this is not making a law that does so either, then how can the ruling say that the law does apply? That would make it affect the constitutionality of the law, which you've just said didn't happen.

  59. You don't honestly believe the same government .. by fkx · · Score: 1

    that is perpetrating these injustices is going to protect the press?

    Now that the vote no longer works in the US, only an armed uprising is going to rid us of the tyranny our government is becoming and has begun.

    You ned to start hiding your guns and ammo NOW while you still can and while the consitution can still protect you. It won't be long before it can't anymore.

  60. The /. summary is insulting to drug dealers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Regardless of what you think of drug dealers, most have never worked for NYT and do not deserve to be equated to drug dealers.

  61. Hypocrisy by amliebsch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's amazing to me that when Apple was going after a reporter, requesting that the court compel him to reveal his sources for use in a civil case, most posters supported Apple. Now, when the prosecutor requests the court compel a reporter to reveal his sources for use in a criminal case, it's a constitutional violation.

    --
    If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    1. Re:Hypocrisy by mlilback · · Score: 1

      Maybe because the Constitution/Bill of Rights issues protections against the government, not private enterprise. Apple can't secretly lock me up behind bars without being able to see a lawyer and keep me there they rest of my life.

      I personally think there should be no criminal consequences to leaking any information about government plans or actions--only for revealing personal information (like what was on my tax forms). And fuck any police/soldiers that might be "hurt" because of it. They knew the possible consequences when they signed up for the job.

      Anyone who thinks they can trust the government should go ask a Native American or anyone who has been arrested while "not white".

    2. Re:Hypocrisy by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      If that's the principle, then any rule which is good enough for "journalists" should be good enough for any citizen. When subpeonas are optional for everybody, I'll agree with you.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    3. Re:Hypocrisy by mlilback · · Score: 1

      And the rules are the same. Journalists have to face the same consequences as anyone else when they refuse to answer a subpoena. See the reporters who sat in jail rather than say who leaked Valerie Plume's identity (even though no such action happened to Robert Novak, the conservative who actually printed the information).

  62. What is the press? by generalphilips · · Score: 1

    If we are talking about special protection, there must first be talk about how to define "the press". Who counts as a member of the press? And why should these people be treated differently than the rest of us? What kind of protection should they get? If you say they should never have to reveal their source, than reporters can fabricate stories with blatant disregard for facts. A reporter should try to only use anonymous sources when it is an absolute necessity. If the reporter knows his bluff can be called, it may actually be better for truth in reporting. Why is it a tragedy for reporters to have to jump through hoops to get their story? Whoever said reporting should be easy? I don't see the current state of affairs as an erosion of press freedom. They are just as free as they ever were. Freedom never implies freedom from consequences. "The press" must deal with the consequences of their words just like the rest of us.

    1. Re:What is the press? by SoulRider · · Score: 1

      Your completely right. What defines what "the press" is and what they're responsibilities are. Is Fox News "the press" even though a Florida judge ruled they are not beholden to tell the truth since they are a form of entertainment? News organizations have proven time and time again that they will act irresponsibly to scoop a story whether it be true or not to the point of destroying lives, they should be held accountable for their mistakes. But there is definately a down side to this, who is going to protect the little guy trying to out his/her boss who is breaking the law? What protections do you and the people helping you have if you need to expose an organized crime boss who has the law bought and paid for and wants your name so they can kill your family? Imagine if Woodward and Bernstein were forced to expose their source would Watergate ever have occured? It is important that we as average citizens are able to expose corruption in our society no matter at what level of society that corruption occurs. We could possibly institute some sort of code of ethics that a news organization would have to agree to follow (with extremely harsh penalties for breaking said code) in order for them to recieve protection. But the press should not be able to hide behind "freedom of the press" when they do not act resposibly and hurt people.

  63. Illiteracy is a terrible thing.... by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

    > So what I want to know is this: what part of "no law" did the legislatures not understand?

    Perhaps you can point me to the part that says there are one set of laws for thee and me and another set (subset actually) that apply to the NYT. It cuts both ways, Congress shall make NO law, period. No special favors and no special restrictions. America is a classless society before the law, Presidents and Congressmen are equal to Journalists who are equal to Professors who are equal to the lowliest homeless bum. If the lowliest bum can be convicted of Obstruction of Justice for tipping of a dope dealer of a bust he heard about in exchange for a rock of crack cocaine then Judith Miller should be facing Obstruction of Justice charges for tipping off terrorists of an impending bust in exchange her awards.

    Yes I know it doesn't really work that way in practice, the most Ms. Miller faces is loss of her phone records, Cynthia McKinney wasn't indicted for a crime any of us would be in prison for, Rep Kennedy crashes into the barrier in front of Congress and only has to go to rehab, etc. etc. But that is the ideal we should all be striving for. Everyone is equal before the law. Unless you wish to argue that nobody should ever be compelled to testify and that conspiracy laws should be stricken from the lawbooks for everyone, then Ms. Miller must be compelled to either testify or face conspiracy charges. (Can't do both, 5th Amendment forbids it.)

    --
    Democrat delenda est
  64. Even stranger by TheConfusedOne · · Score: 0, Troll

    Is the person who started the whole controversy was lieing in order to willfully and maliciously damage the reputation of the White House.

    Yes, sir, good ol' Joe Wilson himself was the one who was busy spreading lies to the newspapers, first anonymously, and then in a bylined NYT Op-Ed.

    Of course, people then asked, who sent Wilson on this trip? It appears that the Administration made the fatal mistake of telling the truth.

    --
    --- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
  65. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    1) The feds turned nothing. It was business that turned it.

    2) It is specially protected even now. Freedom of the press? In other words, the freedom to print what you will. It does not mean a reporter can be an accomplice to a crime and get a pass go card.

    3) Straw. The police and fire departments are not capitolist organizations, bent on making money. The comparison is ludicrous.

  66. Didn't talk to anybody? by Orne · · Score: 1

    Dude, they didn't just declassify some insider information, the government case is charging that the two reporters from the NYT tipped off two Islamic charities to impending FBI raids -- charities that were under suspicion of funneling money over-seas to terrorist groups. How do we know they were doing that, well it turns out that the Bush Administration was monitoring overseas money transactions (you may have heard about this when it was leaked last December by the NYT).

    One of the reporters involved, Ms. Miller, was the same one sent to jail for refusing to divulge her source who leaked that Valera Plame was employed in secret by the CIA. The reason that is important is she may have recommended her husband Willson for the assignment (on behalf of the CIA) of investigating a Saddam nuclear material deal prior to the US-Iraq war, a study that concluded inconclusively that Saddam was not persuing nuclear material.

  67. link jacking by crabpeople · · Score: 1

    Your basically describing link jacking. I hate it with a passion as well. The myspace generation - how many pageviews i get shows how cool i am - is responsible. The first thing i look for in any linked blog is the link to the next level of blogosphere (aka hell) or heaven permitting, i can ascend to the highest level and get to the actual news source. Everyone thinks that their opinion matters and is important, but odds are its probably not. (yes i am aware of the irony in making such a statement. pretend i deleted this instead of posting)

    --
    I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
  68. I happen to be a reporter... by Valley+Redneck · · Score: 1

    ... and anyone who isn't using something like Skype or third-party cell phone to call a source whom a federal prosecutor might want to talk to is crazy. No, I don't know that anyone is listenting in, or that any of my sources might be the subject of an investigation. But it's just so easy to take precautions, it's dumb not to.

    I use Skype when I want to keep something quiet. PGP isn't the world's most difficult tool for e-mail. I keep my home system double-NATed, I clean up my tracks frequently and don't ever use an easy-to-find e-mail account if I need to talk to someone quiety, i.e. firstname.lastname-AT-Mymediacompany.dork

    Here's a gem: I don't use the company phone if I need to talk to a really good source. If I'm super-leery of something, I use someone else's cell phone, as in not a colleague.

    That's not to say I'm sitting on information that could do serious harm just for a good story. If I find out that there's an immediate threat to someone's life or property, or there's a threat to national security (if I ever get a story that good), I'll sing like a bird. Journalists have to remember they're citizens, too, and I don't want any blood on my hands.

    But if it's somebody trying to root out a whistleblower, too bad. I'm not going to make it easy.

  69. I don't see why journalists are special by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

    Journalists make a claim that they require certain guarentees of confidentiality to make the news, but what makes them so special that journalism gets special breaks that the whole of society cannot enjoy?

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

    1. Re:I don't see why journalists are special by Kamiusd · · Score: 1

      If journalist don't have any protection then we lose news as we know it. Every loss of this nature makes the press less and less free. So what makes them special is the ability to get inside information about cases the public may or may not be interested in. However, at the rate the press is being pushed to give up information this method of obtaining news is going to stop. No informant in their right mind will want to talk to anyone press related. In the end we will end up with State and Federal goverment statements about situations with half or maybe even quarter truths. One can not make a intelligent decision with only half the facts.

    2. Re:I don't see why journalists are special by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      And what bad things happen if we give the protection journalists want to everyone?

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

  70. Property-Seizure Case? by DBett · · Score: 1

    This was not a "property-seizure" case in any fair sense of the word. It was a terror funding investigation. And the information illegally passed to these reporters was then given to the targets of that investigation.

  71. Right on, Brother! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is exactly why we need to vote out the rest of the 46% of the Democrats that are left in the federal system... get rid of all that obstructionism, the lying, and actually let the party in power start making changes... If we had acted on the Energy Policy proposals dating back to 2001, we wouldn't be in our fuel-crunch today... Luckily, the tax cuts got through, and the economic indicators are all pointing at the next 5 years being another boom cycle... just long enough for the biggest drain on our society, the Baby Boomers, to hit retirement and suck the life out of our medical and social security systems...

    Here's to a young person like me working for the rest of my life putting money into a system that's going to be bankrupt because of elderly "liberals" who couldn't plan for the future, sucking my money out with nothing left for my generation...

  72. Democrats by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

    Gore? Maybe. At least he's intelligent, genuinely cares about the state of the world, and had the balls to work diligently at shrinking the government. Kerry? The man just screamed "stooge". Gore probably would have won if a) The Bush family didn't get to personally oversee the Florida election and remove 10,000 black voters from the lists for having names similar to convicts, and b) Americans didn't despise anyone with an IQ over 90. Kerry probably couldn't have won unless Bush had strangled a baby to death with his bare hands on live television (or worse yet, caused a human nipple to be revealed! The horror!) Footnote: It's interesting to see just how active Gore was as Vice President. Given Cheney's similarly high level of involvement, does this mark a new era of VPs who do more than act as tie-breakers in the senate?

  73. Faults by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1
    You're talking about a country that is waging a war whose costs are in the TRILLIONS of dollars, has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, and has made a politically unstable part of the world degenerate into near-anarchy. And they did it based on LIES. And they use the nation's anti-terrorism institutions to harass any reporters that try to publish about those lies. They allow state governments to grossly interfere with federal elections. They abandon an entire major city when disaster strikes it, despite having a warning four days ahead of time. They control an ENTIRE major news network in order to make it easier for them to manipulate the nation's stupid, stupid people.

    This is not just another bad government. This is a truly shitty, awful government that has turned America from an inspiring nation with checks and balances and a clearly defined seperation of powers, to one in which the president has TOTAL power to do anything he wants, with the machinery in place to silence vocal critics and propogandize the people into submission. If you valued freedom or democracy even slightly, you'd be haranguing everyone you could find about this government's evils, and getting them to vote for a real party. An actual patriot would be stalking Washington DC with a hunting rifle, trying to find a nice grassy knoll or something.

    1. Re:Faults by brainplay · · Score: 1

      1) A good chunk of those trillions of dollars are for the reconstruction of said country. And no one else is pitching in on the same level.

      2)The "hundreds of thousands" of deaths is a gross overstatement as usual and most of those are from a war we should have finished years ago.

      3) The reporters used poor judgement in an effort to report on a subject that they knew the government would take a serious interest on in order to gain more popularity and sales. And that poor judgement for sensational headlines seems to be infecting paid journalists as a whole (look at the bin Laden and radio phone deal). Why do you think people are so untrusting of journalists today compared to years ago. Those nice little "incidents" where their sources proved false and the politically charged reporting have seriouly tarnished their image.

      4) The city wasn't abandoned. There was warning just like every other hurricane thats passed through. Katrina was no biggie and everyone and I mean EVERYONE treated it like a regular hurricane (I lived most of my life on Padre Island so I have first hand experience). The difference is that the port was messed up (and fixed as usual) and that the levies broke (although the New Orleans government embezzelled roughly 1 billion dollars meant for levy maintenance). If the levies hadn't broke there wouldn't have been such a big deal. You should have seen Houston when the next "big" hurricane was inbound that month and the collective forehead smacking when after the mass evacuation after it acted as every other hurricane has.

      The US as you portrayed it is the axis of evil. And yet you've yet to give a valid reason as why. And yet code Pink is still doing their shannanigans on the white house lawn, Michael Moore is still making crap movies, reporters are still reporting "factual" news from questionable sources and unconfirmed evidence (look at CNN and Fox then look at live video from real small time and freelance reporters actually in the thick of things speaking with the people involved).

      The US still has an abundance of freedoms but unfortunately we as americans take them for granted waaay to often. You can look at any other continent and realize the grass isn't greener.

      As for a shield law I have to say no way to the idea. As one poster stated earlier, we already have a problem with paid journalists holding a "supercitizen" status amongst others. This would be compounded by said law. Additionally its ripe for abuse (and they will abuse it) providing journalists with a safety net not just from the gov. but from anyone who has any legitemit claim for libel or damages from false reporting. God forbid should bloggers start using "concealed sources".

      --
      It is often ironic that those that define others as lemmings are often themselves lemmings dancing to the latest fad.
  74. WTC by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 1

    Why bother rebuilding it? In twenty years, Manhattan is going to be under ten feet of water. Of course, not being particularly sentimental myself, I find the idea of the 9/11 memorial being the site of an artificial reef to be pretty funny.

  75. Don't worry. You're not even close to withdrawal. by gd23ka · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hey man, go easy okay, you haven't seen nothing yet. If you were thinking for yourself then you would
    laugh at the thought of voting for neither the democrat nor the republican side of the Global Freedom
    Reduction Party. You would be able to compare socialism with capitalism and see that it's always the
    same kind of scum from North Korea to Beverly Hills that thrives on the labor of other people.

  76. Re:Editorial Oversight != Truth (i.e. FOX News) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "1) The feds turned nothing. It was business that turned it."

    Bullshit. Starting with Reagan FCC laws preventing massive conglomeration of media ownership were rolled back. The line is direct between, for example, Clearchannel owning 2000 stations and radio dropping news. It's basic media history, educate yourself.

    2) It is specially protected even now. Freedom of the press? In other words, the freedom to print what you will. It does not mean a reporter can be an accomplice to a crime and get a pass go card.

    Parses as English but lacks the fundamental conceptual underpinnings required for 'coherent' status. Or is this another of those 'protect the source, sell the farm' arguments? No room beyond black or white?

    3) Straw. The police and fire departments are not capitolist organizations, bent on making money. The comparison is ludicrous.

    Washington = Capitol. Economic systems employ Capital. What's the relevance? Are you arguing for concentration of any exceptional power into the hands of government bodies only? There are more exceptions to that rule than you've obviously researched which will require rolling back. Ambulances, private companies. No more speeding guys, no running red lights. And the noise infractions! You're doing it for personal profit and demanding excess rights and considerations above 'I/Us/We'. The social utility and benefit to society you provide isn't an argument, you damn elitists!

    Can you people possibly, just for once, put aside viewing every consideration in the light of us/them and think outside the tiny boxes in which you've gleefully constrained yourselves? I swear you'ld all rather see society become a living hell rather than make the smallest of sacrifices for the Common Good.

  77. Re:Fuck 'em by soft_guy · · Score: 1

    No one seems to respect my freedom to do things they don't like. So, why should I support anyone else's? Fuck 'em.

    --
    Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  78. Wow, Like Spies and Stuff by tom's+a-cold · · Score: 1

    Looks like real journalists will need to start practicing OPSEC: Operational Security.

    Randomized behavior, encryption, phony meetings with non-sources along with the real meetings with sources, avoiding phone and email for any important information.

    Crappy spy novels with reasonably realistic depictions of tradecraft should be part of journalist school in place of the sanctimonious preening over the importance of the role of the press in a free society.

    --
    Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
  79. Re:Woah, cool: all press are become tabloids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Crooks have been trying for years to muzzle the press. Now they have found a way. Just tabloidize it!
    That's right, give the crooks plausible deniability because every good witness will be rightfully too scared of retribution to speak publicly. A hidden source will have no court presence as his/her testimony will be hearsay, and hearsay is only admissible in court if submitted by government in prosecution of citizens in up to capital cases, but citizens cannot bring hearsay evidence into court to their defense. All irrelevant anyway as most signifigant future trials will be in secret with neither confrontation of accusers, publicly read charge (secret charges), nor opportunity for discovery or view of evidence against potentialy executable defendants. The constitution! It is now a dead letter. This is no longer the America you once knew. Get out while you still can. Even Mexico is freer!

  80. tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    from the first graph though I figure you're just saying:

    "Nothing to see here. Move along."