Real to Offer Open Source Windows Media for Linux

cpugeniusmv writes to tell us News.com is reporting that RealNetworks plans to release an open source method to allow Linux users to play Windows Media files. Currently Linux users are able to play the two main Windows Media formats (wmv and wma) but only if they install closed-source modules. The ability to launch this initiative comes from a recent licensing deal between RealNetworks and Microsoft and the antitrust settlement against Microsoft.

Comments

Satan:

[Winckle]

"Brrr, it's getting chilly!"

Re:Satan:

[babbling]

I'm curious about how they intend to deal with the patent issues.

Re:Satan:

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious about how they intend to deal with the patent issues.

On a file format??? And I thought the patent on "method of swinging on a swing" was bad.

Presumably they feel that the anti-trust settlement gives them all the rights they need, including patent licensing if applicable.

Re:Satan:

[ajs318]

Perhaps by hosting it in a country where software is not patentable, and relying on Fair Use defence if it is used in a country where software is patentable?

Re:Satan:

[babbling]

Why do you sound surprised about patents on a file format? Most file formats/codecs/protocols have patents on them. MP3 is another example.

Re:Satan:

[sumdumass]

I'm really curious at how they are going to do so and still remain compatible with the GPLv3draft2 as it currently reads.

It is obvious that they don't control the downstream propagation of MS's patten rights. Or do they?

Re:Satan:

[leenks]

I think I missed something somewhere in the comments or the article - are Real planning on releasing this under the (evil) GPLv3 then? Or a less draconian licence?

Re:Satan:

[Ruff_ilb]

They're just claiming "Open Source"

Last time I checked, that doesn't necessarily mean GLPv3draft2, and it doesn't seem like they've declared GPL in the article.

Re:Satan:

[morcego]

I'm really curious at how they are going to do so and still remain compatible with the GPLv3draft2 as it currently reads.

Let me kindly refer you to the Open Source Initiative website.

GPL (vWhatever) is not the only OpenSource license, or even the only free software ((c) FSF) license around.

Actually, I personaly doubt they will release it using GPL, in whatever incarnation of the license. They are more likely to get OSI approval for an open source license of their own, just like SUN and IBM did. And considering the stakes here, the approval (or not) should be handled by the OSI board as high priority.

Re:Satan:

[mike2R]

Most file formats/codecs/protocols have patents on them. MP3 is another example.

On encoding maybe, but I don't think you can use patent law to prevent someone simply reading a file.

Re:Satan:

[morgan_greywolf]

Actually, I personaly doubt they will release it using GPL, in whatever incarnation of the license. They are more likely to get OSI approval for an open source license of their own, just like SUN and IBM did. And considering the stakes here, the approval (or not) should be handled by the OSI board as high priority.

It's going into Helix Player, which is multilicensed. The two open source licenses it currently supports are the GPL and RPSL, their own OSI-approved license. You can also license it under a commercial license. The question is will they continue licensing Helix in this manner? Will they stop support for GPL? Or will they make the Windows Media Support a separate plugin that's not part of Helix and available under RPSL? I agree with you in that I think the last scenario is the most likely, IMHO.

Re:Satan:

[larry bagina]

After they simply read it, maybe they'll want to simply decode it as well.

Re:Satan:

[mike2R]

Which is what I meant by read. Licences are only needed to write the patented format AFAIK.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but this is how I've aways thought it worked.

Re:Satan:

[TheOtter37]

My understanding is that any algorithm can be patented, so it would be up to the patent holder to decide whether to restrict decoding, encoding, or both. From a commercial standpoint, it seems to make sense most often to enforce the patent only on the writing side of the equation (if at all). That way free readers abound, but people developing the software to create content have to pay a license fee.

Re:Satan:

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but this is how I've aways thought it worked.

Unfortunately you _are_ wrong. Case point: Go to http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/ and behold the royalty rates for a "decoder". Note that this patent is generally ignored but some more careful distributions like Ubuntu do not support mp3 playback out-of-the-box for that very reason.
I assume your misunderstanding is the result of the situation with the LZH-algorithm, or in practical terms, the GIF format. Thos, now expired patents only covered the LZH encoding not decoding, hence one could make, use and distribute a decoder but not an encoder. However this was just the special situation with regard to these 2 patents covering this particular algorithm, i.e. they were luckily (from the patent holder's point of view, unluckily) worded in such a way that they only covered the encoder.

Nota bene: Yes, there were indeed two patents covering exactly the same algorithm, one was held in its latter days by Unisys and was the more notorious one due to Unisys' active enforcement. The other one was held by IBM and just recently expired but IBM never actively enforced it (It would've probably fallen due to prior art anyway but it does illustrate the utter stupidity of the USPTO specifically and the patent system, especially with regard to software, generally).

Re:Satan:

[mike2R]

Thanks for the explanation AC

Re:Satan:

[mike2R]

Your right, thanks. Doesn't exactly improve my opinion of software patents..

Re:Satan:

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

For reference, the actual algorithm is LZW (Lempel-Ziv-Welch), not LZH. LZH is compressed file format (similar in function to ZIP) generated by old versions of LHarc.

Re:Satan:

[lord_rob the only on]

I assume your misunderstanding is the result of the situation with the LZH-algorithm, or in practical terms, the GIF format.

Note that the GIF compression algorithm is not LZH but LZW. LZH is another compressed file format. This one is created using Huffman coding if I remember correctly. The Huffmann coding is used in MPEG (or JPEG) format.

Re:Satan:

[Arker]

Fair use is an exception to copyright, not to patents.

Re:Satan:

[bolix]

This has got to be marketeering.

Real must be in negotiations with MS and this is just a negotiation tactic.

Re:Satan:

[bblboy54]

I have to ask... If satan is releasing windows media for linux, why is he shocked?

Re:Satan:

[sumdumass]

It said opensource. I'm just asuming opensource means GPL. In the current GPL, it makes the statment that it will be subjected to any future versions of the GPL. Current while only a draft version, the GPLv3 will be dificult to use for something like this.

This is something i have been trying to alert people to for a while now. Some wording clerifications and maybe some exemptions need to be made with GPLv3 or we might see stuff like windows pattented media formats making some program no longer GPL compatible. But it might not exactly stop at media formats. Supposed microsoft decided to license thier file systems in a way that aren't GPL compatible. Asuming they have a pattent on them (like for fat32) opensource readers might be now GPL incompatible. Reading certain Excell or word processing file formats might do the same. What would that do to the state of a usable desktop system from an opensource GPL provider. Sure the "agregated programs" clause might protect something, But it would take definatly take an open implementation and possibly remove GPL compatability.

I wonder how many programs would all the sudden become GPL incompatible because of some implementation of some technoligy that someone has a pattent on?

Re:Satan:

[rtb61]

No, that's what the DMCA is for.

Re:Satan:

[Mr2001]

Go to http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/ and behold the royalty rates for a "decoder".

They used to have an exemption for freeware (PC only - free handheld apps still needed to pay), but it looks like even that's gone now. Man, what a bunch of greedy assholes.

Re:Satan:

[mdfst13]

"In the current GPL, it makes the statment that it will be subjected to any future versions of the GPL."

1. "In the current GPL, it makes the statment..." is incorrect. Some license *users* have future version provisions in their statement that they are using the license. This is not part of the GPL itself. It is simply a suggested way of using the GPL.

2. "...that it will be subjected to any future versions of the GPL" is wrong. When a user says "This software may be distributed under the GPL version 2 and future versions" it just means that they are giving permission for you to redistribute under whatever GPL version (2 or greater) that you choose.

Even if this software is distributed this way (which is FSF/Stallman recommended), it doesn't matter terribly if the software can't meet the provisions of future version(s). If it doesn't, you simply can't redistribute under the future version. You can still distribute under the current version (assuming it currently meets those requirements). Licensing in this way expands your options.

Re:Satan:

[ajs318]

There is an analogous exception for patents too.

Re:Satan:

[Arker]

No, there isn't.

Re:Satan:

[Zerathdune]

from the article:

RealNetworks will build the Windows Media support into its proprietary RealPlayer for Linux software, the company said. The support will not be in the open-source Helix Community project it launched to bring some RealNetworks technology to Linux.

The title of the article is wrong. Take out the words open source. RTFA people. (not to single you out.)

Too little, too late...

[Anonymous Coward]

This comes right on the heels of having a fairly complete wmv9 decoder functioning in ffmpeg.

Bastards... I don't want their crap anyway

Re:Too little, too late...

[Anonymous Coward]

Any link to the ffmpeg version you mention or to a news release?

I know they have been working on wmv9 support off and on for some time now, but I'm quite sure that they are still far from being there.

Re:Too little, too late...

[drinkypoo]

(Jan 24, 2005) Eagle-eyed observers may have noticed the recent CVS addition of a VC-9 decoding implementation. It is still highly experimental but should eventually serve as a basis for decoding Microsoft VC-1/VC-9/WMV3/WMV9 video data.

And nothing since then, at least on the front page - and you'd think that WMV9 would be a big deal, and they'd mention it there. The WMV3 (VC-1) decoder is part of ffmpeg's involvement in the google summer of code but mot the WMV9 one. The other four in there (for those too lazy to clicky) are AAC, AMR, EAC3, and a Vorbis encoder.

Re:Too little, too late...

[SirTalon42]

From http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/changelog.html for the 'next' version:

"- VC-1/WMV3/WMV9 video decoder"

Re:Too little, too late...

[dosius]

Um, WMV3 *is* WMV9...

WMV9 because it was done for WMP9, but WMV3 because it's the 3rd version of the WMV codec.

-uso.

Re:Too little, too late...

[drinkypoo]

Ahh, thanks for the correction - I had previously uncovered something that indicated that they were not the same thing; I did do a quick bit of research before commenting, but it looks like I didn't look far enough :(

That's really...

[Anonymous Coward]

(buffering... buffering)... gr....(buffering...buffering)..eat new (buffering)s.

...err

[mrsev]

Is this god news or not... It could be a trojan horse ...(in the Greeks bearing gifts sense...not script kiddie sense)

Re:...err

[WilliamSChips]

It's open source. We'll just change what's inside the gifts from Greeks so it won't be dangerous.

Re:...err

[mopslik]

It's open source. We'll just change what's inside the gifts from Greeks so it won't be dangerous.

Of course, that's only if you *notice* that it looks dangerous. Even Open Source can contain some subtle things that appear innocuous. See the classic "Reflections on Trusting Trust" -- great little read.

Re:...err

[WilliamSChips]

Unless we use Real's compiler I doubt that a Trusting Trust problem will happen. If there's a deliberate problem it would be obfuscatory.

Re:...err

[Red Flayer]

It could be a trojan horse ...(in the Greeks bearing gifts sense...not script kiddie sense)

Just a note, the original Trojan horse was a gift bearing Greeks, not the other way around :)

Re:...err

[Anonymous Coward]

>>It could be a trojan horse ...(in the Greeks bearing gifts sense...not script kiddie sense)

So in the scipt kiddie sense then?
Trojan Horses in the script kiddie sense got their name because of the greek story. Most people arlready knew that little trivia tidbit factoid thingy.

Re:...err

[ajs318]

All you need to do, in that case, is write a C interpreter in assembler that can interpret enough of the C language to run the compiler interpretatively as it compiles the compiler. Then you know what the interpreted compiler is doing {because you wrote the interpreter code yourself} and that the compiler it's compiling really is clean {because you checked the compiler source}.

Of course, even then, you don't know for certain what a simple instruction like ADC AL S R6,R4,R2 might be doing. Sure it says it's an unconditional addition of R4 + R2 + C with the result going into R6 and the carry updated, but that's just what they want you to think .....

Re:...err

[Fordiman]

I think he meant as a posion pill for open source, not a virus that would pwn j00r b0x0r

Re:...err

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a note, the original Trojan horse was a gift bore by Greeks, hence the old saying, "Beware Greeks bearing gifts."

Maybe I don't see the point you're trying to make, or maybe you were trying to be funny and fell flat on your face and got kicked in the head a few times. Either way, you make about as much sense as Beowulf having sex with Robert Fulton at the first Battle of Antietam.

Re:...err

[Mr. Slippery]

the original Trojan horse was a gift bearing Greeks, not the other way around :)

It was Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks. And if a few of those Greeks was carring presents, say birthday presents to give to somebody after the battle or something, then it would be Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks bearing gifts.

Re:...err

[Red Flayer]

It was Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks. And if a few of those Greeks was carring presents, say birthday presents to give to somebody after the battle or something, then it would be Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks bearing gifts.

And if instead of a horse they had built large wooden bears, it would be Greeks gifting bears.

Plus, with the proclivity of Greeks to be naked, you could end up with:
Greeks gifting bears bearing Greeks being bare bearing gifts.

My head hurts now. But "What if we build a large wooden badger..." will be stuck in my mind all day, at least that's a plus.

Re:...err

[Red Flayer]

"Maybe I don't see the point you're trying to make"

Hey, you being obtuse isn't my problem. There's even a damn smiley face to clue you in.

But no matter what, insults are meaningless when you're hiding as an AC, so I hope your little troll attempt made you feel good good about yourself.

Re:...err

[Anonymous Coward]

Beware of geeks riffing on Greeks gifting bears bearing Greeks being bare bearing gifts. Sooner or later someone will mention diffs, grits or GIFs, and then things will really get ugly.

Re:...err

[Anonymous Coward]

And if such gift was a fruit basket:

Greeks gifting bears
bearing Greeks being bare
bearing gifts
bearing figs.

Re:...err

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope your little troll attempt made you feel good good about yourself.

I hope your attempt to *argue* with said troll made you feel good good about yourself.

Re:...err

[Red Flayer]

I hope your attempt to *argue* with said troll made you feel good good about yourself.

I know, I know, the sign says 'Do not feed the trolls,' but it did feel good good.

Besides, I'm flattered that you're concerned with my contentment and well-being.

Re:...err

[Red Flayer]

And if such gift was a fruit basket:

Greeks gifting bears
bearing Greeks being bare
bearing gifts
bearing figs.

I think you just won the Slashdot poetry contest. Please see CowboyNeal to claim your prize.

Re:...err

[eclectro]

Plus, with the proclivity of Greeks to be naked, you could end up with:
Greeks gifting bears bearing Greeks being bare bearing gifts.

You mean that the Greeks would be in the buff and not have any buffering?

Thanks, I'll be here all week. Back on topic now.

Re:...err

[Matt Perry]

"What if we build a large wooden badger..."

Then the greeks would be bearing mushrooms, mushrooms?

Re:...err

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

All you need to do, in that case, is write a C interpreter in assembler that can interpret enough of the C language to run the compiler interpretatively as it compiles the compiler.

But how do you know that your assembler isn't compromised? Or your text editor? Or the operating system they run on? Or the BIOS?

Finally, a use for those old Tandy machines!

Re:...err

[ukemike]

and if beetles battle beetles in a puddle in a bottle and the beetle battle bottle's on a poodle eating noodles.... -Theodore Giesel

Re:...err

[mrchaotica]

If a modern system could be compromised, why not an old Tandy as well?

Re:...err

[WilliamSChips]

Because it would be incredibly hard for an old Tandy to detect the necessary patterns on a modern computer for a Trusting Trust hole.

Re:...err

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

And if you had a baby shower inside the Trojan horse to celebrate a stereotypical nerd couple's baby, you'd have Greeks bearing bare Greeks and gift bears for the Greek born to reeking geek Greeks...borne by a Greek-bearing gift, a gift borne by Greeks.

(Nobody better say a word about pregnant bears....)

Re:...err

[WuphonsReach]

(polite applause for all)

Definitely one of the better off-topic threads I've seen in a few days.

Re:...err

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

The same reason why Dan Bernstein used the 1955 RAND tables to generate a constant for a public-key signature system he designed: It's very unlikely that somebody 20+ years ago, with the technology that was available 20+ years ago, would be able to craft a Thompson hack that would successfully insert a backdoor into something like gcc 4.0, which hadn't even been imagined at the time.

Of course, if you don't already have an old Tandy machine, and you instead try to acquire one from eBay, you won't really know that it hasn't been modified more recently.

Re:...err

[Anonymous Coward]

My head hurts now. But "What if we build a large wooden badger..."

why, if that was a breezy badger, it would be Ubuntu!!! Imagine geek Greeks spreading Badger to Trojans?

Re:...err

[ajs318]

You obviously shouldn't trust any assembler. What you have to do is translate the assembly language instructions into binary code by looking them up in the back of the manual. That's how every game for the ZX Spectrum was written!

Some processors are easier than others {ARM is pretty obvious, with very predictable bit fields that almost shout the mnemonics out loud at you; x86 not so obvious}. But once you have a known clean system, you can write yourself a cross-assembler for another processor.

Of course, even although you now know that the binary code must correspond exactly with the source code, you still don't know that the silicon is pure. You might do better to implement the instruction set in more observable hardware. It's just on the bounds of feasibility to manufacture thermionic valves at home -- and you would only need about 30000 of them to implement the 26-bit addressed, Thumb-less ARM. Alternatively, ditch electronics altogether and build a mechanical computer. You only need to use this for long enough to verify the real processor's operation.

Re:...err

[Mr. Jaggers]

Yes! And that makes it the most useful tool for building your own trusted bios, then kernel, then OS, then assembler, then compiler...

already there?

[955301]

Can't mplayer already do this?

Re:already there?

[hamfactorial]

Yes, with the same caveat of requiring closed-source modules. In mplayer's case, codecs.

Re:already there?

[freshman_a]

Yes, but I think the legality of the way mplayer does it is questionable since it uses Windows DLLs directly. It sounds like this is going to be completely separate code written by Real.

I do love mplayer though.

Re:already there?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the latest ffmpeg can play WMV3, no windows dlls needed.

You will need to check out the latest ffmpeg svn and compile it tho.

Re:already there?

[Sharth]

non-x86 users can't use mplayer for wmv.

and afaik, it can't handle wmv10 drm.

Re:already there?

[hamfactorial]

x86_64 users have the option of compiling a 32-bit version of mplayer to use the 32-bit codecs from MS. You are correct about wmv10. It's not a terribly convenient way to do things, since 32-bit plugins can't be used by 64-bit programs (read: mplayerplug-in in 64-bit firefox). It's a big mess really, but it's hard to wean people from the .wmv teat. I've always loved ffmpeg for encoding, and I've heard that within the last week VC-1 decoding has been improved in ffmpeg to allow WMV decoding natively. Exciting stuff!

Re:already there?

[toad3k]

One step closer to a 64 bit mplayer. Now we will just need a replacement for apple codecs and a 64 bit flash and I'll be set.

Re:already there?

[baadger]

> I've heard that within the last week VC-1 decoding has been improved in ffmpeg to allow WMV decoding natively

Yeah, anyone could think Real made this announcement now to steal their thunder and get some cheap publicity...

Re:already there?

[Anonymous Coward]

> and afaik, it can't handle wmv10 drm.

That's a plus point.

Re:already there?

[hamfactorial]

The possibility of a cheap publicity stunt notwithstanding, we're still blessed with an open source WMV decoder. It will improve the quality of A/V on Linux, and I can't help but think that's a good thing(TM). For those not knowing what the hell I'm talking about, check out this blog entry about it.

Re:already there?

[Crayon Kid]

Yes, but I think the legality of the way mplayer does it is questionable since it uses Windows DLLs directly.

What's questionable about that? Isn't this what DLL's are meant for -- sharing functionality?

Re:already there?

[Fordiman]

I suppose, but the dlls mplayer uses are free for download (my linux distro downloads them, as well as flash and a few other free-but-closed bits of usefulness upon install).

There may be some kind of licensing agreement saying I can't use the files in such and such a way, but since the installer is bypassed, I don't have to read or agree to it.

Re:already there?

[Fordiman]

I don't know about the older mov stuff (I think there's mjpeg or something), but between libavcodec's x264, aac and mpeg4 options, modern qt can be played with very little effort.

Re:already there?

[kidgenius]

When Redhat or Suse ship their distro, they are not allowed to include the DLLs. The location you downloaded them from is not allowed to distribute the DLLs. You are not allowed to download the DLLs. It has not stopped me from doing it for xine, mplayer, etc., doing this is in violation of copyright. What Real is doing is providing a LEGAL way of acquiring these codecs.

Re:already there?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it was something about the legality or something. Y'know, copying unlicensed DLLs to another operating system and running them there. It's about copyright law or something.

Re:already there?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if you download them from Microsoft! That's perfectly legal.
Though, actually I just copy mine from my windows partition. Also legal, AFAIK.

Re:already there?

[Fordiman]

Actually, my distro downloads them from their legitimate sources and extracts the DLLs. It's the only way to do it, in a vague sense of the word, 'legally'.

Re:already there?

[jZnat]

Yes, but many people would have to agree that the binary codecs MPlayer supports really suck compared to the native ones. Besides, DLLs (common usage) only work on x86 processors, yet MPlayer is cross platform (so is Helix), so that doesn't solve the problem completely.

Re:already there?

[hoeferbe]

An Anonymous Coward wrote:

Not if you download them from Microsoft! That's perfectly legal.
Though, actually I just copy mine from my windows partition. Also legal, AFAIK.

I asumme that you mean "download Windows Media Player" from Microsoft, and extract the CoDec DLLs from it. Would you please list which DLLs you get from this download, and where you put them on your GNU/Linux machine for your media plyaer to use? Thanks.

Re:already there?

[byolinux]

when I see 'non x86', I think of people like me with a powerpc64. Heh, I should have bought a PC, shouldn't I? Who runs GNU on an iMac G5? Oh well.

Re:already there?

[tolan-b]

For WMV? Really? Where does it get them from?

Re:already there?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, a binary module may well prove to be x86 only..

Re:already there?

[mrchaotica]

Who runs GNU on an iMac G5?

Oooh! I do! (Or, at least, I used to -- my iMac G5 got replaced with an iMac Core Duo by Best Buy's warranty.)

In fact, every iMac G5 owner does, actually -- it's just that in most cases it's GNU/MacOS X instead of GNU/Linux. Just 'cause it's got Aqua doesn't mean it doesn't still have GCC, glibc, GNU core utils, etc.

; )

Re:already there?

[optikSmoke]

[...] most cases it's GNU/MacOS X instead [...]

Oh sweet Lord Christus no! Put it back!

RMS is GNU/listening!

......he'll GNU/hear you.....

GNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo!

Re:already there?

[Comsn]

you can get a few of them from this page:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/down load/AllDownloads.aspx?displang=en&qstechnology=

or the windows media player package also includes many/all of the codecs. altho you may need windows to extract the dlls from the setup.exe

Re:already there?

[Fordiman]

7zip handles the extraction of these .exes pretty well.

Re:already there?

[Mr. Jaggers]

Excellent point. Running win32 library code is difficult enough without worrying about architectural concerns. Modifying endianness on the fly? This kind of stuff is done, but it's really tough. If you really want to know how hard it is just ask the developers on the mplayer team that actually built the part of the i/o plugins that imports win32 codecs... I'm sure they have stories to tell.

Not to mention that Real Networks would be stupid to not realize that the same code they open has, at least, the possibility of being ported away from x86. Or to a BSD on x86. Or to BSD on a non-x86 (older mac, sparc station, IBM Risc/6000, etc). Or (and this, to me is the most important) to a non-x86 embedded platform, such as linux + qtopia on ARM like the Sharp Zauruses had. Actually, linux on ARM was also used for the nokia 770 (which I believe had some of Real's software), and Sony's new mylo.

So, there are lots of reasons why open will be good. If anything, I'd really appreciate not having gxine or mplayer hang or crap out on poorly encoded or corrupted wmv files... Not that Helix has the best reputation for stability, but we can keep hoping. One thing I know for sure; more open won't make more suck.

alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Among other things, does this mean that Real Alternative will soon be legitimate?

Re:alternative

[baadger]

No, this has squat to do with Real Alternative :) But it's always nice to give it some linkage for karma.

Re:alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

But it's always nice to give it some linkage for karma.

Yeah, because Anonymous Coward must have pretty piss poor karma considering the number of his posts that get modded down to -1...

It's about time...

[slapyslapslap]

this was available. I wonder how well they will keep up with the ever changing codecs?

BUFFERING... BUFFERING... BUFFERING...

[Anonymous Coward]

You still suck Real. I don't give a damn if you support Linux. Your spyware past will never be forgotten.

Re:BUFFERING... BUFFERING... BUFFERING...

[Anonymous Coward]

still pissed cuz you couldn't get your pron thru dialup??

False Summary

[brunes69]

Currently Linux users are able to play the two main Windows Media formats (wmv and wma) but only if they install closed-source modules...

Totally false. ffmpeg / mplayer / vlc etc. can all decode WMV files *natively* using the ffmpeg libavcoded libraries.

The problem is not decoding the files, that is trivial. The problem is dealing with the copy protection. Another open source library is not going to help this, because it will still never be allowed to decrypt the copy-protected files.

Re:False Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally false. ffmpeg / mplayer / vlc etc. can all decode WMV files *natively* using the ffmpeg libavcoded libraries.

Well, mostly. ffmpeg can decode WMV 7/8/9 and WMA 7/8. There is no decoder for WMA Pro, WMA voice, or WMA lossless. WMV8 decoding has bugs and may drop certain keyframes.

Re:False Summary

[SanityInAnarchy]

I've also had some issues with recent high-def content. Not sure what the codec was, but it was in .mov, so...

Re:False Summary

[chris_7d0h]

The mov extension is typically used by Apple Quicktime video files.
Thus your beef is with Apple and not Microsoft.

What I really lack is a way / program to move a video stream from one container format to another without transcoding the video stream. For example, the Ogg format hosts MPEG4 steams fairly well, so why can't I simply "lift" Microsoft MPEG4 or Apple MPEG4 videos from their respective proprietary containers to the open Ogg container?

Re:False Summary

[jZnat]

I actually prefer Matroska, but I'd also like to mention that Apple's MOV container is pretty open and well documented (PDF warning), unlike Microsoft's crap.

Re:False Summary

[comcn]

What I really lack is a way / program to move a video stream from one container format to another without transcoding the video stream. For example, the Ogg format hosts MPEG4 steams fairly well, so why can't I simply "lift" Microsoft MPEG4 or Apple MPEG4 videos from their respective proprietary containers to the open Ogg container?

Can you not use mencoder/mplayer with the "-oac copy" and/or "-ovc copy" options?

Re:False Summary

[ben there...]

How is Theora more open than the MPEG-4 container? Are you referring to patents, DRM, or something else?

As far as I know, there are several tools (Quicktime, Nero, mp4box, etc.) for encoding into an mp4 container. What would make Theora preferable to that?

Re:False Summary

[mrchaotica]

First of all, Theora is a codec; Ogg and AVI are containers. ("MPEG-4" includes both.) Second, Theora and Ogg are "more open" because they're not patented. The MPEG-4 tools you're citing either license the patents or are illegal.

In fact, not only are Xiph technologies (including Theora and Ogg) not patented, but they also use a BSD-like license for the reference implementation:

Q. What is the license for Theora?

Theora (and all associated technologies released by the Xiph.org Foundation) is released to the public via a BSD-style license. It is completely free for commercial or noncommercial use. That means that commercial developers may independently write Theora software which is compatible with the specification for no charge and without restrictions of any kind.

Licencing issues...

[vhogemann]

The article says that the code will be part of the Helix player, and that Suse will come with it. But it fails to mention if one can redistribute the codecs, or if other engines such as Xine or GStreamer will be able to use it.

Aside from that, is WMA such an issue? I mean, now we got flash video players that are platform agnostic...

Re:Licencing issues...

[slapyslapslap]

That's a good point. Flash video players are really taking over. It's really the only thing I like flash for. :D

Re:Licencing issues...

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, now we got flash video players that are platform agnostic...

Except for the linux version sucking and being several versions out of date now. I still haven't got a solution for the audio being out of sync and interactive flash apps freezing for a half second or so whenever I do something that makes it play a noise (i guess in a futile attempt to sync audio back up again). Makes flash movies painful to watch and flash games difficult to play... when they're not written for flash 8 or 9, and then they're just impossible.

Re:Licencing issues...

[toad3k]

Are you gentoo, I ask because I'm trying to find out if this is gentoo specific. It amazes me how common the problem is and yet how little it is talked about.

I have gotten through most of the delays by messing with alsa (specifically the .alsarc file and dmix).

Re:Licencing issues...

[compm375]

Yeah, but can you play Flash 9 videos on Linux or even Flash 8? Does it work on x64, in an x64 browser?

Re:Licencing issues...

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC flash is just used as a container format (like .mov or .ogg) for existing codecs.

--
Captcha='incest', is there something cowboy Neil isn't telling us?

Re:Licencing issues...

[nmos]

The last time I tried to download Flash for Windows the license was really obscene. Among other things it gave Adobe the right to audit my computers and also came with a list of devices and OSs that it was not to be used with including Windows MCE. These are just nuggets among something like 7-9 pages of legelese. A few pages in I just gave up and decided I didn't really need the latest Flash that bad.

Re:Licencing issues...

[ElleyKitten]

Aside from that, is WMA such an issue? I mean, now we got flash video players that are platform agnostic...

You're kidding, right? Flash 8 and 9 don't work in Linux, and Flash 7 has goofy sound bugs. Sad to say, but Windows Media works a lot better on my Ubuntu box than Flash does.

Re:Licencing issues...

[arose]

If it's really an open source license then GStreamer can use it as it's LGPLed.

Re:Licencing issues...

[agallagh42]

I just scanned through the Flash EULA at the Adobe site. Either they've recently changed it, or you mis-interpreted it. I couldn't find any reference to auditing your computer, and MCE is specifically permitted.

Re:Licencing issues...

[Anonymous Coward]

I run opensuse and have exactly the same problems - so it isn't Gentoo specific...

Re:Licencing issues...

[FuegoFuerte]

Aside from that, is WMA such an issue? I mean, now we got flash video players that are platform agnostic...

While having a Flash Player available for every platform would be a solution to the whole media distribution issue, let's face it... this isn't likely to happen soon.

Right now, Linux users are stuck with Flash Player 7.0.63.0. That's right... no version 8 or 9 has come out yet, and there's no official comment about when such a player might even be available. Also, right now there's no x86-64 version of Flash Player (even for Windows). So if you have an x86-64 system, you have to either run in 32-bit mode or go without Flash Player. Then consider the poor saps running Linux on an x86-64 system. How soon do you think they'll be supported? I for one am not holding my breath.

On a completely unrelated note, why the heck does Windows not copy when a person highlights? Or paste with a middle-button click? grr. I'm frustrated. These control+key combinations seem so... antiquated.

Re:Licencing issues...

[Cid Highwind]

Check section 13. It doesn't apply to individuals, but they do claim the right to audit businesses for license compliance.

13. Compliance with Licenses. If you are a business or organization, you agree that upon request from Adobe or Adobe's authorized representative, you will within thirty (30) days fully document and certify that use of any and all Software at the time of the request is in conformity with your valid licenses from Adobe.

Re:Licencing issues...

[kimvette]

Easy solution: go to Adobe's web site, go to the contact us page, and submit your feature request. I actually go there about once a week to submit a request for a current Flash release for Linux, and a Creative Suite release for Linux. I may step it up a bit as now (as you've pointed out) we're now two releases behind, and more and more sites are REQUIRING Flash 8 or 9 in order to access them.

Re:Licencing issues...

[FuegoFuerte]

Unfortunately that's only a solution if Adobe actually pays attention to those feature requests. I'm sure they've been getting lots of them for some time (like ever since Linux users got the shaft on Flash Player 8), but there still seems to be no progress. At least they finally released a stable version of FP 7. I was having tons of crashes using FP7 under Mozilla before version 7.0.63.0 came out (in March I think it was). That release seems to be stable, at least for the most part.

Re:Licencing issues...

[makomk]

I just scanned through the Flash EULA at the Adobe site. Either they've recently changed it, or you mis-interpreted it. I couldn't find any reference to auditing your computer, and MCE is specifically permitted.

Looks like they changed it, then. I'm pretty sure that, when I installed it on my MCE-running PC a few months ago, the license specifically prohibited me from doing to.

Re:Licencing issues...

[makomk]

Indeed, it looks like the Shockwave player is still licensed under the old license that prohibits use on WIndows XP MCE:

You may not use the Software on any non-PC product or any embedded or device versions of the above operating systems, including, but not limited to, (A) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs that are not running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, game consoles, TVs, DVD players, media centers (including Windows XP Media Center Edition and its successors), electronic billboards or other digital signage, internet appliances or other internet-connected devices, PDAs, medical devices, ATMs, telematic devices, gaming machines, home automation systems, kiosks, remote control devices, or any other consumer electronics device, (B) operator-based mobile, cable, satellite, or television systems, (C) other closed system devices, or (D) any operating system that is not an Authorized Operating System.

That'll be great

[also-rr]

For 20 minutes before Microsoft break the spec.

(You need 4 years of engineering graduate school to acquire this level of cynicism folks.)

I've been very impressed with Real's approach of late (ever since Helix, really, although they did some good things before then). They are showing a very cooperative attitude - enough to overcome any ill will I might have felt towards them - and I hope that they get a warm reception for this contribution that encourages them to embrace the open source/free software community further.

I do wonder though if any of this open source love is being pushed by the BBC? They are after all proabbly one of the biggest single drivers of Real installations and have demonstrated in the past their ability to push Real to change their stance.

I'm thinking particuarly of the fact that the BBC cancelled it's Ogg testing aboiut the same time that the whole Helix thing started - could Real opening up a bit in return for no migration to open source or free software codecs have been the price?

Re:That'll be great

[ledow]

Possibly. I just wish that they wouldn't do everything possible to make their primary piece of software (at least by downloads) so obnoxious.

1) Try to instruct a novice user to find and download the free version on their website. Not an easy task but doable.

2) Try to install it without it inserting stuff into Windows startup - I use Startup Control Panel but not everyone is so lucky.

3) Try to remove the messages/popups etc. from a standard installation - again, not for the novice.

I applaud any attempt at open-sourcing software but I would worry about the quality of the code if their primary app is in this much of a mess.

Re:That'll be great

[babbling]

What are you talking about? Helix won't play media from the BBC.

Re:That'll be great

[baadger]

The WMV3/VC-1 specification is formal and out there and is going to be used on Bluray/HD-DVD. They aren't likely to break compatibility willy nilly, not in the video profiles people care about anyway.

Re:That'll be great

[also-rr]

What are you talking about? Helix won't play media from the BBC.

It does with Real's plugin. While that isn't free *yet* I hope it is in the future. In the mean time I welcome a vendor who shows they have good intentions and are working on the details. It's definatly preferable to the many vendors who prefer to try and firebomb the project.

Re:That'll be great

[TheOldSchooler]

I dunno I'm just not sure I feel the sam-BUFFERING-BUFFERING-BUFFERING...

Re:That'll be great

[ajs318]

Last time I tried, the BBC stuff wouldn't work in the Open Source Helix player. I had to install the closed source RealPlayer. Fortunately, I was able to do this as a non-root user.

Also, one of the supposed "advantages" of WMA/WMV is that it supports Digital Restrictions Management. Something tells me the Open Source codec won't do that {DRM requires security-through-obscurity}. Of course, having an Open Source version might well make reverse-engineering the closed source version a bit easier .....

Re:That'll be great

[also-rr]

1) Try to instruct a novice user to find and download the free version on their website. Not an easy task but doable.

This certainly used to be a massive problem (the easiest way was in fact to use the link provided by the BBC which went directly too it) but these days their download page (the one you get to by clicking real player on the front page) outlines your options pretty clearly.

2) Try to install it without it inserting stuff into Windows startup - I use Startup Control Panel but not everyone is so lucky.

Not really a problem when installing on Linux, so I can't help you there. Windows users should be used to it by now from WMParasite anyway. Maybe someone who has installed a more recent version than you have can provide some insight.

3) Try to remove the messages/popups etc. from a standard installation - again, not for the novice.

Last time I ran Real Player on Windows that just involved changing the settings in the options tab. Now, i'll not overestimate the technical ability of most users, but unless things have changed it wasn't a lot harder than grasping the principle of how to turn your computer on.

Re:That'll be great

[Anonymous Coward]

In the mean time I use MPlayer, which plays the BBC streams just fine.

Re:That'll be great

[KiloByte]

You're aware that open-sourcing means the cruft will be removed within an hour of them releasing the software, right? Thus, no distro that doesn't have explicit licensing deals with Real to keep the cruft will have any popups.

Re:That'll be great

[theantix]

"Last time I ran Real Player on Windows that just involved changing the settings in the options tab. Now, i'll not overestimate the technical ability of most users, but unless things have changed it wasn't a lot harder than grasping the principle of how to turn your computer on."

Things have indeed changed. With the current version the messaging/popups are extremely obnoxious to disable and I'm something of an expert user. While overall the process is less annoying than it has been in past years, that specific aspect is much worse.

Re:That'll be great

[kosmosik]

> I applaud any attempt at open-sourcing software but I would
> worry about the quality of the code if their primary app
> is in this much of a mess.

Maybe they assume that most Windows users are idiots... Real Player for Linux if in fact quite neat application - GNOME style I would say. Real Player for Mac is a bit slow sometimes but again it works and is a little neat application. Only on Windows Real Player is real bloatware changing your settings (associations, putting shit in autostart etc).

On Windows boxes I tend to install Real Alternative which is basically stripped set of Real codecs and browser plugin. But I don't really know if it is legal to use it.

Great for those novice users of yours:
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alternati ve.htm :)

Re:That'll be great

[jez9999]

I do wonder though if any of this open source love is being pushed by the BBC?

Where do you get the idea that the BBC like opensource more than anyone else? Do you think that just because most of their funding is from a licence fee, they're going to like Linux more or something?

Re:That'll be great

[Tab is on Slashdot]

They already have. The new WMV9 Advanced Profile goes beyond VC-1 spec.

Re:That'll be great

[muzthe42nd]

Or maybe this page?

Re:That'll be great

[MikeBabcock]

I clicked preferences and disabled the startup icon.

Then when I got a faster computer, I turned it back on because I quite enjoyed the free videos they were sending me from time to time.

Re:That'll be great

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to mention it putting itself back into Windows startup eveytime you run it and how it runs in the background after you exit it. Also, the realmedia codec sucks a big one. I hate the thing almost as much as I hate Quicktime *shudder*

Re:That'll be great

[Arker]

DRM doesn't really require security through obscurity, but all implementations of it so far seem to.

Which, in a way, is a good thing. It means it's always breakable.

Re:That'll be great

[evilviper]

The WMV3/VC-1 specification is formal and out there and is going to be used on Bluray/HD-DVD. They aren't likely to break compatibility willy nilly, not in the video profiles people care about anyway.

Microsoft doesn't "break compatibility" at all... They just decide to release a NEW version (ie. WMV10) when the old version becomes easy to use on non-Windows systems.

People who need VC-1 will continue to use it, while the public at large will get the next version pushed to them, and start using it, because it''s there.

Re:That'll be great

[jackjansen]

It would be a shame, really, if this would mean the BBC would stop with their efforts to create a state-of-the-art open video codec, just because Real caved in and it was convenient for them to stick with RealVideo....

The BBC Dirac project (dirac.sourceforge.net) was specifically started because of the sorry state of closed codecs, and is technically way ahead of the pack (think: better quality and smaller files than H264 at lower decompression CPU usage), and they're making sure that the format will always be open through very smart use of patents.

Re:That'll be great

[ajs318]

Yes it does.

You -- the rightful recipient of an encrypted message -- have to have all three of the following: the encrypted file, the decryption key and the player {which contains the decryption algorithm}. Without the file you have nothing to watch / listen to, without the key you have no way to decrypt it and without the player you have no way to view / hear it. If you had the source code to the player, you could find out where the key is obtained from {it might be in the encrypted file or it might be in the player itself} and use the decryption algorithm independently to decrypt the file.

Of course, reverse-engineering a binary-only program is possible -- it's just not easy. DRM is fundamentally flawed {in the worst case, it can be defeated with cameras and microphones}. This is likely to persist until we get schemes that perform the final decryption in your brain.

Real Alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

"We have for the first time a real alternative to the Windows desktop. Linux and open source are there," Novell Chief Technology Officer Jeffrey Jaffe said at a news conference.

Is this some kind of pun from Novell considering this is an article about RealNetworks after all?

Good!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we can pull all of the adware out of it.

can only be a good thing

[gdamore]

Having _open source_ versions of these codecs means that lots of other FOSS can make use of them, not just RealPlayer/HelixPlayer.

Its small victories like this that make the whole litigation against monopolists like Microsoft worthwhile. Sure the billions in payoffs are great, but what really, really helps advance the field is the opening up of proprietary formats and protocols.

It also means that those of us who want to run Linux on something other than a PeeCee are not left out in the cold, and makes possible native alternatives for other less popular operating systems -- Solaris, HPUX, NetBSD, etc.

Re:can only be a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

People should learn to encode their stuff in open formats. What do the closed formats offer that the open don't?

(BTW, I am just jilted, because this issue of formats pops up with every stupid file type over and over again.)

Re:can only be a good thing

[I'm Don Giovanni]

WTF does this have to do with "litigation against Microsoft"?
The Windows Media specs have been available for anyone to implement (Flip4Mac implements WMV for Macs). If anything, this shows that the "litigation" is pointless, as it had nothing to do with Real releasing open source code implmenting WM codecs.

The sad thing is that while the WM specs have been available, the OSS community didn't bother to create open source codecs on their own, choosing to use illegal methods to play WM on Linux (mplayer requires downloading Windows dlls, illegally) while waiting for a commercial company (i.e. Real) to do the work creating OS WM codecs, that the OSS community themselves should've been creating.

You talk of "litigation" against "monopolists" while excusing the illegal activity in your own OSS community (using Windows dlls illegally) and excusing the laziness of your own OSS community (not creating OS WM codecs before Real did).

Re:can only be a good thing

[Wesley Felter]

The Windows Media specs have been available for anyone to implement (Flip4Mac implements WMV for Macs).

I have a feeling that Flip4Mac is based on MS's reference source code, but that's beside your point.

The sad thing is that while the WM specs have been available, the OSS community didn't bother to create open source codecs on their own

But they did. MPEG-2, MPEG-4, H.264, and recently WMV/VC1 have all been implemented from specs by the community.

Re:can only be a good thing

[gdamore]

You might want to review the original posting. I never said anything about downloading DLLs from Microsoft.

Furthermore, I run on NetBSD and Solaris, and have _never_ downloaded any microsoft codecs, legally or otherwise. Mostly this is because THEY WOULD BE TOTALLY USELESS ON MY ULTRASPARC AND MIPS HARDWARE. So content in WMV has typically not been available to me.

But in any case, I was under the impression that a fair number of codecs were closed source, including the ones Microsoft promotes for use by content producers. If this is not the case, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.

My original point, that having open source for this stuff (whether from a settlement with Microsoft due to litigation or otherwise) is going to be a very good thing.

While I do contribute heavily to opensource development, I don't have the time or energy to start writing my own codecs from documents that may or may not exist, and may or may not be sufficient to create an implementation. So, in summary, thank you Real for working to get this technology into Open Source, in one fashion or another.

Fantastic - but what is bringing the change?

[poliopteragriseoapte]

This is very good news! First, Intel supporting drivers for their on-board graphic chips. Then this.

What is the cause the latest? The fact that Google videos and YouTube are going to flash, rather than Realmedia format, in order to reach all audiences?

I am amazed that the tiny percentage of linux desktops is starting to matter. I would welcome any insight into why it is so.

Re:Fantastic - but what is bringing the change?

[Kimos]

Because that tiny percentage is growing, and it is growing at an increasing rate...

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

[Anonymous Coward]

RTFA. It's open source. Buggy and bloated, maybe, but not closed.

ffmpeg already have this in the works!

[baadger]

The guys behind the ffmpeg/libavcodec implementation which mplayer, xine and VLC and a whole bunch of a/v media apps in Linux already make use of, already have a working and pretty good WMV3 (WMV v9 Video) implementation in CVS. Infact it'll probably trickle into distro's before the end of the year.

Yeah so, move along... nothing to see here.

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

[JonJ]

Maybe you should atleast read the summary. It's open source. Your post makes little or no sense at all.

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

[Anonymous Coward]

They say *code* release, not merely a closed-source app. That's different. While it is certainly possible that Real will encumber their offering in the same way they did RealPlayer in the past, I, for one, am willing to *consider* the possibility they have reconsidered their past practices, and will do the right thing this time. I'll *skeptically* check it out, but I will be giving them a chance.

A good start

[Nonillion]

To me this is certainly encouraging news, I use Real Player on my Sun and x86 Linux boxen quite often. Now let's get them to take the next step and include a DVD player that will play ACSS/CSS disks.

Re:A good start

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know that CSS has worked for years don't you. Even in the US I don't think anyone would notice if you downloaded the software.

What about the streaming protocol

[jonwil]

Does this (or any other open source stuff such as mplayer) cover whatever protocol is used by the microsoft server for streaming windows media cotent? (whatever it is)

Being able to play windows media streams is just as usefull as being able to play windows media files on a disk or web url or etc.

Re:What about the streaming protocol

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I used a windows media stream it seemed to be http over a different port, the mms:// protocol seemed to be there to make sure it opened in WMP instead of IE.

Re:What about the streaming protocol

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this (or any other open source stuff such as mplayer) cover whatever protocol is used by the microsoft server for streaming windows media cotent? (whatever it is)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Media_Servi ces

MPlayer, VLC, and several other players can handle it.

Re:What about the streaming protocol

[Fordiman]

mplayer already handles both mms:// and rstp:// pretty damned well.

It also does ftp(s)://, http(s)://, smb://, and a number of other random network protocols.

Re:What about the streaming protocol

[Frightening]

You mean the MMS protocol. As a developer who once had to design a distributed media server based on Helix, I couldn't care less. You can accomplish most things by packet sniffing if you really want to, but if you sniff MMS packets you will never sniff again.

The protocol is terrible.

RTSP, which is the open standard, is far better for your health. You can stream windows media content with RTSP.

Re:What about the streaming protocol

[Comsn]

yes, you can stream wmv over rtsp, but its still X-perimental (and no specs) with X-MS-ASF content types, which live555.com and mplayer and vlc and xine currently cant handle :(

Clapping

[tgpo]

As soon as I buffer my sound clip of clapping I'll try and join in.

Dear RealPlayer,

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Please open up your own format first before going and opening up other peoples' formats. Windows Media is already easy enough to play most anywhere. Streaming (or even non-streaming) RM is a pain to convert to another format - and most of the downloadable converters require you to have RealPlayer itself already installed (so it can use the DLLs). This is as much a "solution" as Captive NTFS, and it doesn't work on platforms other than x86/Windows.

(My underlying complaint is that you don't have a half-recent version for Windows Mobile. I've tried to convert these to WMV but it doesn't work well. Releasing a WM5 player - or even a J2ME player - would shut me up for now, but your real problem is you have the obscurest, proprietariest file format ever.)

Re:Dear RealPlayer,

[Fordiman]

Actually, linux/mplayer with the windows codecs package (found on mplayer's site) does a pretty shining job of converting from RM/RA. Mind you, it's got the same PITA factor as converting from WMV or FLV (ambiguous framerate issues), but I don't mind; I've gotten kinda good at mathematically figuing this sort of thing out.

Re:Dear RealPlayer,

[SanityInAnarchy]

Mod parent up. I won't be shut up, by the way -- every single RealPlayer I've ever had the misfortune to play with has been nothing but pain. Windows version I'd heard described as "behaves like a virus" by my most MS-loving, proprietary-loving technology whores -- and this was before we had a word for "spyware". Difficult to uninstall, a pain to live with. Linux users had to deal with truly ancient versions, so while there were players and plugins which used the RealPlayer DLLs (.so's), and while RealPlayer itself was distributed under package management (so not much chance of spyware if I don't run it), it was compiled with a truly ancient version of gcc, and thus wouldn't work with any of those things. So I ended up having to run it anyway...

And while most players let you have a fairly big buffer, RealPlayer sounded staticy, like bad radio reception. I suspect it had some clever way for dropping quality, but I shouldn't have needed that with my connection -- and yet, it still spent half the time buffering.

CarTalk is a humorous radio show which answers automotive questions, half-seriously, you never know if they're giving you good advice or just messing with you. They switched from RealPlayer several years ago, because as amazing as it seemed (even to them!), RealPlayer managed to be significantly worse than Windows Media Player -- Microsoft did far, far better than them by being almost mediocre.

If Real wants to gain respect, then yes, they should open their own format. We don't need all the source code, just the codecs, thanks.

If Real wants to survive as a business, they should drop the farce and just start selling their spyware directly to botnet controllers and peddlers of animated cursors.

By the way, whoever suggested that Flash has replaced Real as the format that does copy protection... Flash may not be as open as we'd like for playing, but it's easy enough to rip the video out of it. Or at least, I've done that with audio -- pulled an ordinary mp3 file out of a Flash presentation. With Real, you have to use the Analog Hole, not that it's that bad -- the sound quality sucks so much that encoding it as a 56-bit mp3 wouldn't hurt.

Re:Dear RealPlayer,

[MagicM]

Kudos for using "proprietariest" in a sentence (and spelling it correctly).

Re:Dear RealPlayer,

[Jherek Carnelian]

CarTalk is a humorous radio show which answers automotive questions, half-seriously, you never know if they're giving you good advice or just messing with you. They switched from RealPlayer several years ago, because as amazing as it seemed (even to them!), RealPlayer managed to be significantly worse than Windows Media Player -- Microsoft did far, far better than them by being almost mediocre.

Which must be why RealAudio is the only streaming format available from Cartalk.

Actually, the way I, as a radio-only listener, remember it, Cartalk switched to WM-only for about one month and then because of a huge number of complaints from listeners and more than just a few technical problems on the server side, they dumped MS and went back to Real.

Re:Dear RealPlayer,

[Anonymous Coward]

Try the Enterprise version, or the Helix Player

Re:Dear RealPlayer,

[SanityInAnarchy]

Oh, I see. I remember seeing a rant at least as long on their page as the one I put out.

Still, it's not much of a choice, compared to ShoutCast/IceCast + open format (mp3, ogg) + WinAMP for the newbies.

-1, reading comprehension issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Spyware? In an app that they've already said will be open source? Did you RTFA??

Re:-1, reading comprehension issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Normally I would agree with you. But I have a hard time trusting Real, and can't wonder how they will try to foist their adware even though the code is opensource.

Maybe I, like the parent post, have known Real for too long.

Yay, Windoze features

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Real, it's 2006. You've had more than a decade to fix your buffering problems. Maybe you should fix that instead of adding more bloat to your players. What'll you port next from Windows, that ad-spewing Message Center?

no thanks. (bombing on Real.)

[deviceb]

*skip unless u want to hear my negative opinions on Real.

I have no time to read an article about Real networks, but i will take the time to state how much i dislike it.
Real media has been one of the most annoying web technologies since it came out. For instance: trying to sneak in lame apps and silly toolbars during the install. Trying to hi-jack file permissions.. Winamp has always delivered better quality, free and less annoying content.
It is just about worthless as a media player when compared to VLC or any number of other players.
The only thing Real had going was content protection,.. but now streaming with flash (youtube, pornotube, google.video, ect.) is cake so they do not even have that. I can see why they would be trying to give the app to anybody who will take it.

the last place i want to see it is in a linux distro.

hrm... what else.. it's ugly & stinks too! /end rant

Re:no thanks. (bombing on Real.)

[Anonymous Coward]

I too want to chime in here. Besides the fact that this pile of a company is still steaming, another problem is the various incompatible formats with different versions of their own player, that required(s) you to download their adware ridden crap anew every six months, and prevents you from playing the old files with the new player (for whatever reason).

Mention the magic words "open source" and it's like everyone here is turning into a Real fanboi. I still standby the words of another slashdotter a couple of years ago. The quicker Real goes down the quicker we can stop having to deal with their crap.

Some criminals never reform even though they are let out of prison. I bet that's the case with Real.

Re:no thanks. (bombing on Real.)

[Anonymous Coward]

Quality? Winamp? Oh, dear...

Re:no thanks. (bombing on Real.)

[Faylone]

Yeah, but if they toss in adware and other such crap, how long will it be until there is a fork that doesn't have it?

MOD PARENT INSIGHTFUL

[unity100]

Mod it insightful indeed.

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

[Neeex]

Is this a deliberate troll? Either that or you've never used RealPlayer for Linux.

RealPlayer for Linux has no spyware, is not bloated (it has a standard and fairly minimal Gtk2 interface, whereas the Windows version uses a custom interface), and I've not encountered any bugs during my brief encounters with it.

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

[sumdumass]

the problem with a win32 emulated closed source system....

I need to own a copy of windows to legaly have it. If i don't then i don't have the legal right to use windows dlls or other stuff.

What does this mean to someone who doesn't think free means get it from emule? It means it is off limits without obtaining legal right to run it. With reals offering, i have that right(or it would apear so)

AMD64

[csplinter]

Hopefully this will mean I can play windows media files without having to log in to a 32 bit chroot now.

Re:AMD64

[krajo]

You don't have to chroot anyway. I got an mplayer32 binary and it works just fine. It all depends on which ld-linux.so the executable is using. See ldd, or simply view the start of the file, it's right there. The 32 bit one can find 32 bit libs in /lib, /usr/lib, etc and 64 bit stuff in /lib64, /usr/lib64. I'm using Fedora Core4 as a base by the way. And you can do all sorts of funny stuff by changing ld-linux.so with a hex editor to something else :)

regards, krajo

sound with flash

[Anonymous Coward]

at googvid and yousetoobs, where it's flash, I can not get the sound to function. I get the video OK, but no sound, and right clicking to the alleged control panel gives me a blob box with some non functional buttons that do who knows what. And once that is open it won't go away.. All my other a/v stuff does sound and vid fine under linux, but go over there to check out a vid-no dice. I googled around for a fix and it appears to be beyond esoteric into the sacrafice chickens realm. FWIW, FC5. Probably me, frequently is, but shoot, would be nice if worked, those sites are popular and have some good stuff sometimes.

Re:sound with flash

[ElleyKitten]

at googvid and yousetoobs, where it's flash, I can not get the sound to function. I get the video OK, but no sound, and right clicking to the alleged control panel gives me a blob box with some non functional buttons that do who knows what. And once that is open it won't go away.. All my other a/v stuff does sound and vid fine under linux, but go over there to check out a vid-no dice. I googled around for a fix and it appears to be beyond esoteric into the sacrafice chickens realm. FWIW, FC5. Probably me, frequently is, but shoot, would be nice if worked, those sites are popular and have some good stuff sometimes.

I had the same problem with Ubuntu for the longest time. I don't remember exactly how I fixed it, but it involved routing flash's sound through ESD, everything else through Alsa, and then setting up ESD to refresh every few seconds so it wouldn't conflict with Alsa. Or something like that. I should find out and write it down, in case I ever have to reinstall or something.

You should try Mepis or one of the other distros that come with Flash. I believe they work a little better with it.

Re:sound with flash

[Anonymous Coward]

thanks, I might try that. In the meantime I hope google at least fixes this. They are an all linux shop interanlly, you would think they could make their videos work flawlessly under linux, or even have a "click here for viewing under linux" tips and tricks page. Youtube I don't know, they probably don't care.

Real Fan

[calcutta001]

I dont understand 'Real Player is bad/evil/crap' rant. I have used it in it's prime time. And stopped after Windows media 7 or so. But moving to linux since 2002, I havent seen a legit media player on linux that installs in one step and plays audio and vedio without digging into configuration files etc. I ovten use real player on linux and pleased to say that it embeds into the firefox without a problem.

FOSS franatics may scoff. Dont flame me if you use Flash or Java. It might not be kosher according to FOSS puritans, but it is a linux based commercial product. And there needs to be more of it. As far as I am concerned Real has redeemed it's sins by providing me a linux distribution. I openly admit that I am a fan. I am a fan because real sees value in linux support. Where is quicktime, iTunes, photoshop? Apple wont touch linux and I wont start about MS. Linux needs _some_ commercially successful products to gain a wider acceptance.

If a software is crap people will not use it, but it doesnot mean that their existance is a bane.

Re:Real Fan

[d_jedi]

Try running Real Player on Windows.

Re:Real Fan

[MarkByers]

I havent seen a legit media player on linux that installs in one step and plays audio and vedio without digging into configuration files etc.

I can only assume that you haven't tried EasyUbuntu yet.

Re:Real Fan

[calcutta001]

Windows ?? Who uses that anymore. (Tongue in cheek).

Proud to say "Windows free since 2003"

Re:Real Fan

[angelwalkwithme]

Realplayer used to be a pretty sweet application when it first came out. The problem with it is that it is ubiquitous everywhere, but the software resides in your memory and keeps bugging you about upgrades. That for me makes it an annoyance not worth using.

grew up

[matgorb]

I'm sick of those unconstructive comments from people who have no clue. I agree that Real had an approach to Windows computing that fitted perfectly with the trend, bloatware and spyware, but to anybody who actually do not use Windows, Real as been more good than bad. Their Mac and Linux players, which I use, have nothing to do with the Windows offering, they are nice clean and effective little application that do their job well and nothing else. The only thing missing really is a playlist. As for the buffering joke, I watch and listen BBC program, French national TV program and a lot of other music related streams and it always delivers a adequate experience, much better than any WMa/v or Quicktime. If people don't understand that offering a legal way to play content is what Linux need to get accepted, nothing can be done really. I know Open Source implementation are out there, but they are usually enough in the gray area (especilly in the US) that distro can't ship them. If SuSE, which is already my distro of choice, since it can play mp3 out of the box through a clever integration with the Helix software. can ship a distro that plays mp3, wma, Real and flash 9 out of the box, they have a killer. I mean Automatix and easyubuntu are nice, but you have to know about it, and chances are that most new users don't (as most people don't know you don't have to use IE, MSN messenger, etc.)

wmv9 in changelog

[GodWasAnAlien]

in version "":

http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/changelog.html

Re:wmv9 in changelog

[VGPowerlord]

or for those of us too lazy to read the source code of that comment, version ""

Missing Features

[yo_tuco]

FTA

"... Duchmann said in an interview here. However, the software [Linux version] won't support digital rights management available with Windows, he added."

How come only the Windows version gets all the good features?

yeah up mplayer?

[dieth]

http://mplayerhq.hu/ This plays everything already. Why would I want another bulky player from Real...?

Re:yeah up mplayer?

[Anonymous Coward]

everything ? really ? tell it to my G4 ... ;)

Use ffmpeg

[Kristoffer Lunden]

ffmpeg -i infile.mov -vcodec copy -acodec copy outfile.ogg

Untested, but something like that should work. See the friendly man page for more info.

Helix Player?

[Kunta Kinte]

Please open up your own format first before going and opening up other peoples' formats.

They have, AFAIK.

Helix Community offers the open source Helix Player which supports encoding and transcoding of RM along with a bunch of other formats.

Re:Helix Player?

[noldrin]

The Helix Player can use those codecs, but it doesn't come with those codecs. When you download the open source Helix Player, all you are getting are the open source codecs which does not include the real formats. If you download the closed sourced Real Player for Linux, you are getting a closed source Helix Player which includes all the closed source real formats. Also this player is crap and plays Real files and MP3 files so slowly that my machine skips every 3 to 7 seconds when player Real files, and can't refresh the player while playing an MP3. MPlayer using Real's codecs does not have this problem at all. Also the RealPlayer for Linux can't play older formats, while MPlayer using Real's Codec's can.

except this one will be legal

[Kunta Kinte]

Yeah so, move along... nothing to see here.

How are free OSes going to make in-roads into the desktop market without media players that support popular codecs legally?

Re:except this one will be legal

[baadger]

The same could be said for MPEG-1,2 and 4. Didn't stop that

Re:except this one will be legal

[Wesley Felter]

How is Real going to legally give away an open-source decoder for a format that is patented by Microsoft? Is MS giving away free patent licenses to Linux users, while charging others per copy? This doesn't make a lot of sense.

Re:except this one will be legal

[evilviper]

How are free OSes going to make in-roads into the desktop market without media players that support popular codecs legally?

Who said ffmpeg/libavcodec is illegal?

Containers are patented

[tepples]

For example, the Ogg format hosts MPEG4 steams fairly well, so why can't I simply "lift" Microsoft MPEG4 or Apple MPEG4 videos from their respective proprietary containers to the open Ogg container?

Because the containers are patented in several major developed jurisdictions. VirtualDub used to be able to move WMV streams to AVI, but a cease-and-desist letter citing a United States patent forced the developers to remove the functionality from 1.4 and later.

Re:Containers are patented

[Anonymous Coward]

They never actually cited a specific patent. And they never sent a C&D letter to anyone else, so maybe they've given up.

Except that Flash for Linux blows.

[biendamon]

The folks over at Macromedia (and now Adobe) haven't released a real version of Flash for years. Until Flash is able to play consistently - and without video/audio sync problems - it's not going to be a viable solution on Linux. Right now it's a toy and an advertisement distribution system. They promised us a version 8 for Linux, and now it looks like version 10 for Windows will ship before we get it.

It's only a stopgap measure...

[codergeek42]

While I think that having F/OSS support for more audio codecs like this is definitely a good thing, I rue the fact that such proprietary (and/or patented) codecs exist in the first place. I dream of a day when the need for these dwindles and vanishes to nothing. People need to stop supporting these and start using Free formats such as Ogg Vorbis (lossy), Speex (speech), FLAC (lossless), and Ogg Theora (video). (Hey, a geek can dream, right? ^_^)

No, the cat does not "got my tongue."

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> Currently Linux users are able to play the two main
> Windows Media formats (wmv and wma) but only if they
> install closed-source modules.

What do you mean "closed-source"? Don't they know about IRC channel #linux-quote-closed-source-unquote-nudge-nudge-win k-wink?

Bad Theology

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you meant your post to be a joke, but, it should be pointed out (since so many people believe wrongly about this subject) that, according to Christian theology, Satan isn't actually in "hell". He gets thrown into "the lake of fire" (i.e. justly punished and, eventually, destroyed) after the battle of Armageddon and after the millenial reign of the Messiah (during which time Satan is temporarily imprisoned).

Untrue statements....

[gweihir]

mplayer can play far more then the two formats, even without the Windows codecs....

Confusion Abounds

[TheoMurpse]

I'm confused. So Real Networks is going to release a solution that allows Linux users to watch Windows Media files? I could have sworn VideoLAN Client played Windows Media files already (and iTunes music files as well!).

Re:...err (going offtopic)

[cp.tar]

All you need to do, in that case, is write a C interpreter in assembler that can interpret enough of the C language to run the compiler interpretatively as it compiles the compiler. Then you know what the interpreted compiler is doing {because you wrote the interpreter code yourself} and that the compiler it's compiling really is clean {because you checked the compiler source}.

I just imagined Nigel Hawthorne explaining this bit to me.

Not sure if this is a good answer...

[hullabalucination]

I do wonder though if any of this open source love is being pushed by the BBC?

Dirac. BBC's contribution to the Open Source world. I'll bet that at Real this surely got under their skin that the world's largest broadcaster/media archive would be developing its own open codec that would probably find its way into an open container and thence into open players and mess up their business model.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/opensource/projects/dirac/

And notice on BBC's page that the alpha of Dirac has already found experimental support in players from two of Real's three main competitors (don't see anything about Quicktime Player). Ouch.

* * * * * *

When you step on the brakes your life is in your foot's hands.
--George Carlin

Namely, US Patent 6,041,345

[tepples]

They never actually cited a specific patent.

Wikipedia:ASF cites United States Patent 6,041,345.

And they never sent a C&D letter to anyone else, so maybe they've given up.

So where is this product from "anyone else"? Perhaps the VirtualDub issue deterred everyone else from trying to develop a WMV to AVI direct stream copy.

Re:Namely, US Patent 6,041,345

[Anonymous Coward]

They never actually cited a specific patent.

Wikipedia:ASF cites United States Patent 6,041,345.

I don't see any claim that Microsoft asserted that patent specifically.

And they never sent a C&D letter to anyone else, so maybe they've given up.

So where is this product from "anyone else"? Perhaps the VirtualDub issue deterred everyone else from trying to develop a WMV to AVI direct stream copy.

Didn't deter ffdshow, mplayer, vlc, etc...

Its a PR Stunt

[NullProg]

I'd be happy if Real would fix RealPlayer 10 for Linux to work with NFL Field Pass. http://www.real.com/partners/nfl/fieldpass.html?br and=nfl&pcode=nfl&rsrc=nfl

They need to start offering the same services for Linux as they do for Windows. Can't login my ass.
(And, no. I don't feel that its fair to run RealPlayer for Windows under Wine). I paid for the service, give me the damn service whether I choose to run a Mac/Windows/Linux OS on my computer.

Enjoy.

No Thanks.

[Loc_Dawg]

Seriously. Real Player has sucked hard for at least 10 years.

linux

[ralph1]

when i can listen to xm radio with any player not windows let me know.

Um, who cares?

[lostlyre]

You know what happens when I run into a WMV or WMA or a Real movie or any other crap proprietary format? I hit the back button. Wow, big deal, now we can "easily" and "legally" watch movies on eBaum's. It'll have to be a little more than 'chilly' downstairs for me to put Real on any computer I own.

Whoops.

[SanityInAnarchy]

I said MOV, I meant WMV.

Quicktime is fairly well supported, and the high-def MOV files I've seen definitely use h.264, so they work well under native 64-bit mplayer.

For repackaging stuff, I think someone else showed you a way -- what I've tried to do (and failed at) is a simple:

mencoder -oac copy -ovc copy foo.mov -o foo.ogm

Of course, sometimes you actually have to transcode, like when the codec doesn't support seeking -- I don't mean "no index", I mean "no seeking whatsoever". Then I'd like to transcode no matter what.

keyframes?

[/dev/trash]

We don't need no Steenkin keyframes!