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The Segway, Five Years Later
abb_road writes "The Segway was introduced with a promise to transform cities; BusinessWeek has an article on what the Segway has accomplished in 5 years, and how 'personal transportation,' and the company, have changed. From the article: 'The first Segway — a clean-running, technologically dumbfounding, fun-as-hell-to-ride device that was pretty much impossible to fall off of — was introduced to so much fanfare five years ago that the public-relations agency that helped engineer it still uses it as a case study in how to create a media frenzy. It may be an even better case study in media backlash. The initial euphoria had hardly worn off before a new consensus emerged: This was all much ado about a $5,000 scooter.'"
Does anyone have the list of the cities redesigned to accomodate the Segway?
Apology to Ubuntu forum.
When "IT" was first announced, I thought Kamen had come up with a new form of fuel that would replace petroleum and really "change the world". So the scooter was kind of a let-down in comparison. Even so, I would love to have one and I imagine most people would. I just wouldn't want to pay for it!
Regular Meta Moderators are not more likely to get mod points.
It's surprisingly not hard to fall off of a segway if you've never been on one before. You have no idea that you can't stand on it before it's been turned on. (I did that fell over caught myself)
In addition. The Turning controls are on one of the handles and if you're drunk and jousting on Segways (Which is REALLY FUN btw.) falling off is pretty easy as well. I leaned to far forward which makes you go very fast I was attempting to charge through a hallway and while going fast I realized that I was quickly drifting towards the wall. I attempted to fix this but twisted to hard on the steering grip and it very quickly spun me in a 360 into the wall.. Which actually hurt pretty good. You don't have to be a president to fall off of one.
--------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
>>it still uses it as a case study in how to create a media frenzy. It may be an even better case study in media backlash.
Well, its looking only half the picture. Best case study would be "How to create media frenzy, completly fail to deliver it, and still remain in business"
"pretty much impossible to fall off" - unless you are President Bush. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2989000. stm
"pretty much impossible to fall off of"
Unless you have clay feet.
--
make install -not war
If the article is all there is on this subject, then Segway hasn't accomplished much since the scooter was finished. They've thought about a lot of potentially neat things, but they're still just that - thoughts.
Makes me want to run right out and put all my money into just about anything except Segway!
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
but it's not the one its designer intended. Indeed, on a segway, you look like a total dork and you're dangerous (I was passed by one on the sidewalk, I can attest to this).
But there's one area where segways excel, and that's giving a lot of freedom for disabled people to move around. Each time I hear about a segway story, it's about some handicapped person who finds it marvellous. Like this story for example, or this one which are rather typical.
So in short: I reckon segways should be banned on public thoroughfares, and allowed anywhere for disabled people.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
How to render the Segway obsolete...
BAM! Third wheel.
There was a news story on a local station recently about a Segway owner. Can't ride it on the sidewalk because it's classed as a vehicle. Can't ride it on the road because it's a danger to itself and other road users (given it's relatively slow speed compared to a car).
I believe that we've been here before. Anyone in the UK remember the Sinclair C5? And see how well that one took off.
They're both great concept vehicles, but realistically, no city is likely to spend the time and effort building special lanes for these things.
And God help the passengers in a crash - I imagine that they have the survivability of a fly that's in a collision with a rolled-up newspaper...
Five years into the craze that’s sweeping the nation, I finally saw some in real life recently. I was on vacation in Hawai‘i and some tourists had rented a few to roll around the grass in Kapiolani Park.
I though briefly about finding out where to rent them just so I could try one, but we had better things to do so we kept walking. I’m all for putting pedestrians on wheels and accelerating them to three times their natural walking speed, but I prefer getting some exercise out of the deal. I guess I’m just old-fashioned.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
I remember the Wired articles, they were 100% pumped. They were so excited their brains were melting out of their ears. They wrote massive articles about IT even though they didn't know what *IT* was. Famous tech figures were crawling out of the cracks to say IT was the most amazing thing ever created, and that our lives would be changed. Needless to say the infection caught me, and I ended up being thoroughly disappointed.
Promote Charity on Myspace, Show Your Colours!
If you've never riden one before you might want to check out http://www.citysegwaytours.com/ - they really are a lot of fun.
I really wanted one after riding one round Paris and Budapest, but can't think of a single use where a bike isn't cheaper and better (plus they're not legal on the road or pavement (sidewalk) here in Britain)
My GF and I rented Segways on a recent trip to Montreal. It was a blast. We zipped all over the waterfront, testing it on inclines, gravel, etc. It's pretty amazing how steep a surface it can climb. I wished it could go faster, actually.
These things could revolutionize cities, but it's not an overnight proposition because you're battling for real estate on the road with cars. Cities like Montreal, with extensive and sensible bike lanes/routes, make the most sense initially. But if they sold them in NYC, you'd really have to sell models equipped with miniguns to defend yourself against crazy taxi drivers.
In any case, if you get the chance to take one for a spin, do. It's really fun.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
A few months ago I finally got the chance to ride a Segway, at the HOPE convention. They had rented a pair and sectioned off a safe area to zoom around in, and it was a load of fun to ride around the hotel's mezzanine while laughing like Pee-Wee Herman.
However, there was also a little bicycle that someone left lying around, and I got the chance to ride around the mezzanine on that for a while, also while laughing like Pee-Wee Herman. That was also a load of fun, one that wouldn't cost me four-figures to duplicate, require me to remain standing, or control my direction with what may be the most unnatural steering mechanism ever.
Both rides gave me a sore throat friom all that Pee-Wee Herman laughing, though.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
I'm not trying to be a troll here, but it seems like whenever Dean's company is about to introduce a new product, they start a PR campaign. Just before the Segway came out is was the "super secret revolutionary invention to change the world". People speculated its was something medical because that was Dean's forte. He did end up productionizing his stable wheels chair technology into a personal walking machine- the Segway. Plus Dean made his round of the TV news magazines and talk shows.
I am not sure if Dean over-hyped the Segway leading to disappointing sales. I hope he continues to invent interesting and useful products. The PR campaigns can remain entertainment.
Does everyone else remember the hype that swirled before the release of the Segway?
Ginger!
IT!
A device so revolutionary and world-changing, that its codename was "IT"!!!
After seeing it, Jeff Bezos was known to say "You have a product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it."
Bidders paid out over $100,000 EACH for the first three examples of a production Segway.
Well, we all know how it went from there.
I want to thank Dean Kamen for permanently calibrating my expectations when it comes to new world-changing products.
I'm much less excitable about such claims now.
Like the article says, a $5000 scooter. There are electric scooters out there that could also be carried onto a subway car with you, but they're 1/20th the price. Sure, they don't have the same range, or cool factor, but who the heck did Kamen think his market was? We're talking about a device to make it easier for people to get from public transportation hubs to their destination endpoints. These aren't the kind of people that have $5000 to waste on a personal transporter. You're talking about 10 years of bus transfers before it pays for itself.
I live about a mile from nearby subway stations, and have been known to be an early adopter - a perfect candidate for a Segway (other than the fact that I'm not sure about it's viability in Boston winter conditions). I told myself that I'd buy one once they got down to about $1500. Well, it's five years later and the price hasn't budged. If they really wanted to change the world, they would have figured out a way to sell them for $1000.
-BbT
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
If the Segway was introduced at $500 instead of $5000, it would have changed the world. Technologially, there doesn't seem to be anything about these things that absolutely prevent them being made at a marginal cost of less than $500, given enough unit sales to amortize fixed costs and manufacturing investments over. Which really means if you had an infinite amount of investment money and unlimited time to recoup it in, eventually you would recoup it. Which is not saying much at all. The Apple Newton would have changed the world if it had been introduced at $100 instead of $1000, and there is little reason to think that we could not, today, produce them for less than that.
It seems to me that changing the way people move in and out of cities is a catch-22 phenomenon. No matter how compatible your new idea is with existing modes of transportation (which the Segway, in truth, was not), you need the city to provide infrastructure before it will be widely adopted. And cities won't provide infrastructure until there is widespread adoption. The only way around this is to price the thing at a level where a lot of people will simply say "what the hell" and start using them, creating a problem that cities have to respond to. People are so much better at responding to problems than planning.
Truthfully, cities don't make more than token concessions to bikes, which compared to supporting Segways are much simpler to accomodate. Some cities even don't seem to give a damn about pedestrians. The only way to change this is the same way that automakers killed public transit: be willing to lose a lot of money in order to make not using your product inconvenient for people.
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I've been waiting for a Segway knockoff to appear so I could actually afford a similar device.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
Ok, shouldn't an article discussing the success (or failure) of a new product mention at least once how many of the darned things have been sold?
"Thousands have sold, but not nearly as many as Segway hoped for." is altogether vague. Is that 1000 a year? Or 400 a year?
After five years I can count on one hand the number of Segways that I've actaully seen. That suggests that they have been much less than smashing sucess.
Three Squirrels
Saw that group out there last time the family and I were in that area.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
...is a great mode of transportation for Gob of "Arrested Development".
The Segway was unveiled in December, 2001, meaning it was a scant three months and change after 9/11. I've always thought that something that hurt the Segway in the marketplace was the fact that here was the USA (where the thing was unveiled, invented, target market, etc.) recovering from its worst attack in history (terrorist or otherwise), the economy is in the shitter, and here's some eccentric genius trying to get everyone excited about a $5,000 scooter.
Perhaps the Segway would have met the same "meh" fate either way but does anyone think that, had 9/11 never happened, the Segway would have met a better response?
Schnapple
1. It's not clean running. just because it's electric does not mean it's "clean" there's a smokestack/nuclear plant/mam somewhere charging its batteries. And it is SIGNIFICANTLY less clean that walking.
2. The biggest issue I have though is why encourage people to get less exercise than they get already? This has bugged me since I read the first over-hyped preview of the Segue. People should be encouraged to walk. Not to drop 5g's so every form of exercise they can possibly get should be removed from their life. My sister used to live in Atlanta and she told me it was the most obese city in the US. They say it's because you need to drive to get anywhere in the city. She put on 15lbs. in a year when she lived there. She moved to NYC and she dropped that 15lbs. and then some. Even with the Atlanta she had a fairly slender frame, after she had lived in NYC for about a year though she was the lightest I've ever seen her.
3. and this one is very big a Segue takes up a lot more space than a person. Mostly because it's shape is static. I used to have a lot of house parties, and the place would get PACKED I'm not a small man in any sense of the word at the time I was playing rugby, lifting and was 6'4" and 240lbs and despite everyone being packed so tight it was a struggle to stretch you nose I could still get from one end of the house to the other. replace pedestrians with Segues, and you'll just end up with segue gridlock.
The thing is doomed to a niche always was always will. It's not a mass market idea.
I think IT's just the start. Kamen's got some designs he's trying to bring to
commercialization that turn the Segway into something like what you're hoping
for. If his designs for a Stirling are as good as he seems to think of them,
you'd use it in the segway to give it much more range- and it would be a device
that'd use different fuels (Hell, you COULD do a thermal atomic pile if you were
sure it'd not get ruptured and get unbelieveable results with that...).
It's got potential- I just think he released the Segway before it was really ready
(i.e. the power plant he's working on for it and other things weren't done...).
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I made a post that, in order for it to be successful, it must do the following.
1) Be an order of magnitude cheaper
2) Break down into a package small and light enough to carry on public transportation
Otherwise, it's just an expensive glorified electric scooter
I stand by my original accessment...
A goal is a dream with a deadline
It's like a really slow motorcycle or a really expensive electric razor (those two wheeled scooters) that you can't take inside a building. All it really did was make traffic cops more prone to being overweight since they don't have to walk their beat.
Seems to me that anywhere the Segway can go, a person can walk or bike just as easily (or more easily). The people who could actually make use of it, the elderly, probably shouldn't risk riding one as even a multi-talented President can fall off of one.
Alas I'm in London so I've never seen one. Do they make a noise? How long do they go for inbetween charges?
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
Only here would a caveat about drunken Segway jousting be modded "informative."
One of the big problems with portable transportation devices (bikes, pocket motorcycles) is that by their very nature they help thieves get away with the loot all the quicker.
Are you going to have to bring a kryptonite lock to secure your segway every time you go to the grocery store? Is it even designed for that? (having something just as strong as the lock to bolt onto, otherwise locking it would be pointless).
Less than 1/50th the price. Not insignificantly, 22lbs is light enough to carry if it breaks down. The lightest Segway is 70lbs. When it breaks down (or, more often, shuts down with an Out Of Cheese error), you might as well call a tow-truck.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
... the cost of these things is impractically high right now. Once competition is allowed to play, we'll see hundreds of knock-offs from other companies at rates that make them practical. By that time, they'll be even better with fuel cells and better batteries.
Someone made a "segway" with the old Lego MindStorms kit :
http://www.teamhassenplug.org/robots/legway/
I can see the Segway being expensive for being an electric scooter, but 5000$USD is way too expensive.
Segway is the dumbest venture capital backed multi-millions of R&D backed contraption - EVER -- people -- lets see....segway is for those with LEGS and who can stand or walk or use their legs perfectly fine and makes them spend a few thousand dollars to go a little faster and not use their otherwise good-enough legs... DUMB DUMB DUMB. had he invented an affordable wheel chair for those who cannot use or move their legs - now there is something to talk about.
I think I've found one which matches the Segway's promise.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
From your link:
"What if the World Trade Center buildings were not brought down by planes or fires, but by explosives?
That is what the physical evidence and video evidence indicate did happen."
Not according to the NIST and ASCE. But because some self-proclaimed expert on the internet said otherwise, I should throw out all other opinions, rights?
Conspiracy theorists like that give the rest of us a bad name.
Agreed - this is way too expensive for what it does.
If the technology involved requires that level of pricing, then the product is over-engineered. I've never really had much use even for bikes, to be honest. If I'm in a hurry, I drive. If not, I walk - the inbetween state that bikes and the segway inhabit hold little appeal to me. Certainly several thousand for such a device is way overkill.
It's a skateboard with a motor, basically. Like the original article says, it was a great solution in need of a problem. It sounds like the new business guy has his head well out of the clouds. Here's hoping the undoubted intelligence involved in the technology finally gets applied to something constructive.
[ cruise / casual-tempest.net / xenogamous.com / transference.org / quantam sufficit ]
Nothing to see in Toronto - they were banned in late 2005. Not that the people who scream down the sidewalks on motorized carts, or the bicycles that think the sidewalk and intersections are for them and stop lights, stop signs and one way streets and such are only for cars pose any risk, oh no - only the Segway would pose a danger. Right.
Going on means going far
Going far means returning
the problem I have with these machines is that some government agencies were providing to people who had fitness handicaps (lardasses) as a health benefit covered because of the ADA.
Was really funny watching Atlanta issue a few of the machines to fat cops, cops who could not walk a beat if they had too. Seemed a few other government agencies began looking at these because of "union" rules interest.
I would not mind the machines for people with genuine handicaps, but I certainly don't want to be forced to buy them with my tax money. There are other alternatives that worked for many years before without the need to spend an exhorbinant amount of money.
The problem with genorisity of this sort is that its all so very easy to sell because its not your money and its a guilt trip if you oppose.
A great invention, but too costly and limited in its current form.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
The Segway came out a few months after 9/11 and those of us in NY were wondering if it had to do with terrorism. Save the world type stuff. There was a mixture of curiosity and unease around it, which I think contributed to the let down that many of us NYs felt: "Oh, it's a scooter. Thank GOD! I thought it would be a special bomb!"
I would have never thought that people would choose to move under their own power rather then be hauled around in an upright wheelchair for the lazy.
Standing on a spot for a longer time is actually LESS comfortable than walking around.
I would rather walk than stand put on that little platform, as is.
if it were twice as fast, then it would make sense (but than again, its autostabilisation would crap its virutal pants when dealing with 4 times the kinetic energy).
I met one once in real live, and while it was faster than walking pace, i could effortlessly drive a lot faster on a bike (which is cheaper, has "unlimited range", a physical autostabilisation called "rotational inertia" and light enough to just pick up and carry up some stairs)
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
The first Trade Center bombing revealed gross inadequacies in fire and police communications. By the time of the 9/11 attack none of the problems had been fixed. (Are you listening, Guilliani?) The people in our government have no interest in making things better, they are complewtely focused on the problem of remaining in control at all cost. And we keep them there.
... it can't be impossible! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxtc75biScU
She almost had a shish-ka-Paris with that mop strapped to her backside.
The Segway is a solution looking for a problem.
If I'm in a hurry, I drive. If not, I walk
In london, if i'm in a hurry i cycle. If not, I walk.
If im too drunk to do either i get a taxi. Cars are the slow way unless your heading home at 5am.
"It's a skateboard with a motor"
and it doesnt work on water!
"If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
I heard they are so easy to ride only a cretinous moron could fall off of it.... What's that? George bush you say?
God Be Gone
Here in Amsterdam there is apparently some company that rents them out to (mostly) elderly tourists. It seems pretty succesful.
It only hurts when you survive
It costs a lot and replaces walking. Give me a break. It's WALKING. Get off your lazy ass and walk.
http://www.runfatboy.net/
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
It's near impossible to (safely) classify it as a motor vehicle for road use and because of the engine it can never be used on a walkway.
If the manufacturer had put some of the commercial money in attempts to get it legally accepted they might have had a chance.
In Europe it's for all purpose banned from public roads or sidewalks, you can only run it on private property.
One of the few examples where it is used is by security personnel at Amsterdam airport, a private property.
The disabled prefer a little scooter so they can sit.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
At Schipol airport (Amsterdam) the security guards buzz about on Segways. Single-level, flat areas with huge long corridors seem an ideal environment for them.
Cress, cress, lovely lovely cress
Its biggest problem is that it is that it's so bulky and heavy. It can't go everywhere, and when you get to a place where it can't go, you can't fold it up and put it in your pocket. Had they made it so you could collapse it and easily carry it with you, it would enjoy more success I think.
I am curious about how sales to Europe compare to sales within North America. In comparing sales, it's not just numbers I am thinking of but who is buying; average people looking for a practical tool vs rich people looking for a toy, comparisons of institutional buyers, etc.
My questions come from the differences in lifestyle and culture, and imagining that Segways would not only be more useful in the existing European infrastructure, but more readily accepted there. Am I right or wrong? Who can sate my curiosity?
RTFM; please, I beg you.
Well, see, that IRL is actually the whole issue and measure of a product's worth: whether you'd pay the price for it, or not.
Because if we're talking as in "well, if it was free of charge, I'd get one", then you've covered pretty much everything in that category. I know wouldn't refuse a lot of things, if they were free, even if they're bloody stupid and/or I have no intention of using them more than once or twice. But if they cost 0$, hey, I can just chuck it in the garbage bin later and I've lost nothing, right?
The problem is that IRL most things aren't free, and bang/buck is actually a very important criterion. There's a moment when you look at a toy and at it's price tag, and decide, "gee, it would be bloody _stupid_ to pay _that_ much for that." And many a product ends up a dud not because it's a stupid product per se, but because it's just not worth the price tag it comes with.
And that's where the Segway failed. You're not the only one who wouldn't mind one for free. I wouldn't either. I don't think much of it as a means of transportation, but, hey, it might make a good high-tech toy to play once or twice with. But when you slap a $5000 price tag on that toy, it start's looking like a stupid toy for people with more money than brains. I could even afford that price very easily, but looking at it from a bang-per-buck perspective, it's entirely too little bang for that kind of buck. I can easily think a _lot_ of other stuff to blow my money on, that would be more useful, fun, or whatever.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
When "IT" was first announced, I thought Kamen had come up with a new form of fuel that would replace petroleum and really "change the world".
When "IT" was first announced, I didn't hear about it, because I ignore marketing hype.
When colleagues kept pestering me about it, I told them it was all a big marketing hype campaign and they would be really disapointed... they didn't listen.
Then when people started complaining about what a letdown the segway was compared to what they had built up in their minds that it could be, I only wanted a strong drink. People are dumb.
You can't take the sky from me...
Maximum load: 180 lbs
somehow I don't think this scooter will work for the average Slashdotter. Especially once loaded down with a laptop carrying backpack and bag of cheetos.
-Rob
Biblical fiscal responsibility
I lived in Montréal for 4 years. Your comment about "sensible bike lanes/routes" had me howling!
- Number of bike lanes in Montréal: 2
- Number of times I nearly got mowed down by a car on Sherbrooke Street: 750
I'll never forget the dissapointment I felt when the Segway was finally revealed. I don't think the media backlash is the reason that the Segway did not revolutionize, well, anything... It just wasn't very revolutionary. Actually, I'm quite surprised that the Segway is still around, while the electric car has dissapeared. I didn't think for a moment that cities would be redesigned to accomodate Segways, but I did think that cities would have to be redesigned if Segways were ever going to become ubiquitous. From the ridiculous hype you would have thought that a portable anti-gravity unit had been invented (now that would have been revolutionary, -- not just for lazy people, but for emergency rescue personnel, etc...). The Segway was a solution waiting for a problem. I actually think widespread adoption of the Segway would create more problems ( more obesity, Segway-pedestrian accidents, :).
etc..). It didn't even live up to it's "realistic" ads -- you can so fall off a Segway ( see George W. Bush
I've rented Segways a couple times and it's not as easy as it looks. It's not easy to fall over, but it is easy to go around crashing into stuff. The Segway vendors do a brisk business in new fenders.
I rode around Santa Barbara (CA) which has a lot of uneven sidewalks. The classic scenario is to hang up one wheel on something (the Segway is wider than your shoulders), then you execute an immediate 90-degree crash turn into whatever happens to be there. Negotiating curb cuts is tricky, since the device must remain reasonably level in the roll axis. Once you get some situational awareness it fine. It will stop on a dime (I was actually able to make the tires skid.)
I was surprised how powerful the device was. It could lug my 200 pound white ass up the steep hills on the edge of S.B.'s downtown. After an hour of fooling around, I was down about 2/3 of a charge, although that included some hill-climbing, just to see how much torque the thing could crank out.
If it cost $2000 less I would buy one.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
FWIW, I've seen the cops here (Harvard/Cambridge) training up to use them.
I'm not sure that the Segway will ever live up to the hype, but maybe 5 years is too soon to judge its impact.
The sectors where it will impact the most are the slowest on the uptake for emerging technologies (gov't, for example, they need to have a good fight about it first, then quietly adopt it).
- I am made of meat.
>If the Segway was introduced at $500 instead of $5000, it would have changed the world.
I dunno. Scooters, bicycles, all are pretty much useless to me. Where I live, except for a gas station about 5 minutes away by car, everything is 30 minutes away - by car. I commute about 30 miles each way to work, at highway and interstate speeds.
Any and every time I leave the house, it needs to be in a vehicle that can travel at least 70 MPH and has a range of 100 miles, and keeps me comfortable in any kind of weather.
No scooter can do that.
My next car will likely be a Smart Car http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/ . Have THOSE made in China so that they retail for $5000 a pop and THAT will change the world.
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
This is likely to be the deal-breaker in any climate less benign and predictable than Hawaii.
Like some other respondents below, I recently had a chance to try out a Segway on a 90 minute tour at a mountain resort. It was an amazing experience. I was quite surprised how much power those things have - essential for climbing up those trails and twisting resort roads.
And yes, you sure as hell can fall off, especially if you take a turn at speed. The thing turns by counter-rotating the two wheels, so its turning radius is nearly zero. Due to considerable inertia, the turning radius of my body is quite a bit greater than zero when moving forward at 12 mph. Note however, I never fell off, although it was close a couple times.
Is the segway revolutionary? At $5000 a pop, not a chance. Too bad they couldn't get the price down to the $1000 range. Is the segway useful? The people complaining that it just replaces WALKING should note that 3x the speed makes quite a difference, as well as the fact that not all of us could walk 26 miles a day without serious physical discomfort.
Whether it's useful or not, I suspect we'll be seeing more and more operating within the tourism industry.
RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
I looked into buying one for my 1.7 miles commute. We can use them on the paved trail where I live so it would be safe and fuel efficient. I saw 2 downsides; first was price it was to expensive (although a quick office poll showed I could make a few bucks selling test rides) and second was storage. I live in an apartment which means no garage and reduced ability to modify my area for parking/storage. I would have to bring the thing in every night to prevent theft and my wife doesn't want a Segway sitting next to the kitchen table (imagine that). I did not buy so I continue to polite and destroy my car.
Gayest thing I've ever seen. And yes I've been to the Pride Parade in San Francisco.
It's *just not worth the money*. There are (x) needs for movement outside the home. to list a few:
a. go to work
b. go to school
c. go to market (food, clothing, other mundanities)
d. go to cultural activity (art, music, religion, party, movies, restaurants, etc.)
How can the Segway get me to a/b/c/d faster than:
* walking
* driving
* bicycling
* public transport
the Segway is probably faster than walking. So, a/b are viable to the Segway vs. normally walking. However, shopping is right out - it has no trailer and you need both hands to control it. So you can't go shopping in a Segway. Going to cultural activities is usually done in pairs or groups. The Segway carries one, so it is marginally worse than walking to cultural activities, if walking is the normal method of getting to such activities.
If you normally drive to work or school, the Segway cannot compete in terms of speed, except in the narrow sense of inner city driving where cars are slow and parking is scarce. Otherwise, the Segway loses in every category. The AVERAGE cost of a car in the USA is $8000 per year. So, for $3k more, you get to blast down to the beach on a sunny day at 80mph.
If you normally bicycle to the above mentioned activities, the Segway also loses. Bicycles are easily fitted with pannier bags and trailers, so bicycles are easily outfitted for significant shopping. With an electric assist, similar to the segway, bicycles (as ebikes) can actually compete with automobiles, even in a number of suburban locales. A full on eBike (say, a decent bike converted to a Stokemonkey)with massive panniers and an extra seat for a kid is often less than $2000 - less than half of a Segway, and a damn sight faster as well (A stokemonkey can easily hit un-pedalled speeds of 20mph. Pedalling gets it up to 25 - 30mph). There are other conversion systems for ebikes: Cyclone for instance, and many many manufacturers are coming out with electric assist bikes.
So, the Segway is 50/50 versus walking, loses against a bike, doesn't hold a candle to a car. Now: Public transport.
Public transport works in a few modes: intra-urban transport (such as the NY City Subway or the SF Muni) inter-urban transport (the NJ/NY PATH train, or the SF Bay Area BART system) and inter-city transport (NJ Transit, LIRR, Amtrak near NYC or CalTran for the Bay Area). Obviously, if you're shlepping to NYC from Metuchen or SF from Palo Alto, you're NOT going to do it in a Segway. You'll take NJ Transit or CalTran. If you're going to NYC from Newark you'll take the PATH, Oakland to SF - BART. If you're going to Downtown from (NY) Upper West Side or (SF) Inner Sunset, you'll take public transport. Why? Because in NYC a Segway is TOO SLOW. In SF, you'll never get it past Twin Peaks. So, in these two (and common) examples, the Segway doesn't even hold its own against an even mediocre (MUNI) subway system.
As a consequence, the percieved value of a $5000 scooter (Segway) FAILS against the simple expediencies of Driving long distances, Biking shorter distances, commuting by public transport, and walking three blocks to get some beer and a pack of smokes.
Also, the Segway weighs about 33 kg. (IIRC). The average bike weighs about half that. The average eBike weighs 2/3s that, and goes 3x as fast and costs half as much. A Stokemonkey weighs as much as a Segway, but it's freakin' huge and is more of a slow green substitute for local automobile travel than a simple bike - it can carry a passenger and four sacks of groceries - AND go 2x as fast as a Segway. So, in every possible way, the Segway sucks. It's heavy, slow, has no capacity, and is 5/8 the cost of an average automobile. In other words: It's Useless.
Everyone did the same calculation all at once, and that's why the Segway failed. It was a bad idea with a mediocre execution.
Now - get off your ass and walk.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Segway failed because they underestimated how lazy people are, I bet those electric scooter chair things are outselling it by far.
Sindri Traustason.
The ultimate purpose of PR or marketting is to sell a product. That's it. That's why we pay those people.
In the over-production economy of today it's damn easy to produce lots of anything, but it's hard to sell it. Insert your favourite product and major corporation manufacturing it, and it would be trivial for them to ramp their production to the point where it exceeds world demand. Nike or Adidas could swamp the world in sports shoes, Samsung could bury the world in TVs, and Coca Cola could easily ramp its production to the point where the whole human species could drink only that. That's not the problem. The problem is selling that stuff.
_That_ is the problem that marketting and PR were supposed to solve. Plain and simple. That's why their clients pay for their services.
A marketting or PR campaign whose backlash actually hurts product sales (e.g., Daikatana and the massive backlash to the "John Romero will make you his bitch" campaign), is plain and simple a flop. I don't know how you want to redefine PR's job, but from the client's point of view, he didn't get _his_ problem solved: selling more products. That's the real problem he had and needed solved. Anything else is just missing the point and solving the wrong problem.
Just exposure is damn easy to get. You only need to fund a spam campaign or something equally stupid, and you'll get all the negative exposure you can possibly hope for. Or get your products to fail in some spectacular way. (Incendiary laptops with Sony batteries, anyone?) That'll get you in everyone's head. But that's not the exposure anyone actually wants.
The trick is getting the kind of exposure that makes people actually want to buy the product. You need to get people to associate product with being cool, trendy, hip, or just having some benefit out of it. Stuff that makes them want to buy product X instead of product Y. (E.g., make them want Coca Cola instead of Pepsi or water from the tap.) That's really what the client pays for, and that's why he pays trained experts instead of just doing some hare-brained publicity stunt himself.
Isolating half of the issue as "only that's my job, and it doesn't involve whether or not it helps you" is missing the point. Saying "my job is to create market awareness, it's not my job whether it also helps your business or kill it" is as stupid as hearing a surgeon say, "well, my job is only to cut you open, not to actually remove your appendix and/or make sure you survive."
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
It was able to turn Steve Wozniak into a world class athlete.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
The key here is $5,000. I can buy a car for that much; yes, a used one but one that will get me where I want to go. And not just in the city, it will get me everywhere. And do so warmly in winter, cooly in summer, and dryly when it rains. I live in Illinois, where they say "What, you don't like the weather? Well, just wait twenty minutes!"
I can buy a brand new bicycle for under $100. It has all the limitations of a Segway except price.
It's not that the problem he wanted to solve doesn't exist, or that others couldn't see it, it's that his answer doesn't solve the problem. The answer to the question he wanted to solve could not possibly be one that costs $5,000 each.
Odd how a rich man could have missed this? Nope. They keep making that same stupid mistake; the mistake being that they think everyone is like them. We aren't.
They do it with computers. My first cost $100, a Timex-Sinclair, back when the IBM-PC cost as much as a segway. Lately they designed the "$100 laptop" and the rich idiots bood. "Who would want something so puny?" Er, ME!
You see it in the movie and music industries, complaining stupidly that a copied song is a lost sale, not realising that we not only don't have enough money to download everything, we don't have the time, either. Give me a ten cent download of a song with no restrictions, a dollar download of a movie with no restrictions, and you'll get a couple of extra bucks from me (provided the music folks produce something I'd want to download, even for free, and provided they acted like humans so the boycott could stop).
HDTV? Who needs it? I already have TV set I paid $1000 for that I seldom watch. No way am I shelling out for a big enough TV that high definition would even matter.
And they wonder why only half of eligible voters show up at the polls? Same reason; the candidates are arguing about flag burning and gay marriage and racism and Iraq and terrorism when voters just want someone to get us out of war and recession. So long as neither candidate talks about issues voters care about, they're not voting.
Yes, this little rant may seem off topic, but it's not. It's about the rich man's distorted view of the world; the real reason that the Segway doesn't matter. Make them for a hundred bucks each and they'll matter.
What I'd like to know is why one has to cost more than a used car? I mean, a computer, a couple of wheels, some sheet metal and some tubing. Why are these things so stupidly expensive?
As an early adopter (#23)...
Celebration Florida is (I believe) the "greenest" city. The Segway did not play a vital role for the city's green tint; but (like any other city's "potential") green infrastructure and adoption of green machines is critical. The Segway PT is just a small player "thinking green" and the company realizes they are just the first in personal, safe, and green transportation.
"The Segway PT. Personal...Safe...Green."
...more reasons why it's absurd to suggest that the Segway would be replacing cars (or even bikes/scooters) any time soon (or ever). This, of course, only applies to urban areas... there are other obvious reasons why it's useless outside of a large, dense metropolitan area.
:o)
;o) People who want to exert themselves will walk or use a bike, people who want to relax while traveling will get the $500 Civic.
1) You can only transport 1 person on it. Even in the $500 Civic, you'll still probably be able to take your wife/girlfriend and a buddy or two along. With the Segway, you'd have to shell out *another* $5000 for each person who wants to go with. So when you wanna go for a nice Sunday "stroll", or go grab some food a few blocks away, you better hope you like doing it alone.
2) The transportation of even reasonably bulky items isn't possible. Planning on traveling with anything more then the clothes on your back...? Well, the $500 Civic wins that one by a landslide... heck, even the old fashioned scooter (and possibly even a bike) would probably win this one by a good margin.
3) It can't (or most likely "won't") be used to go very far. I think its limit is somewhere between 10 and 20 miles per charge. But more importantly, you're *standing* while you're traveling, so you won't want to go more than a few miles. (Remember, if you weren't interested in being lazy, then you wouldn't have bought a Segway in the first place.)
I honestly think that the Segway (as a whole) is the most impractical invention ever created. I think that the technology behind it is freaking amazing... but unfortunately, they took ground-breaking new tech, and put it in a completely impractical device. There isn't a single thing that a Segway can do that can't be done better and (usually much) cheaper by using other transportation methods that have been around for a hundred (or even thousands of) years. The only scenario I can think of where the practical *function* of a Segway supersedes other methods is for police officers doing day-long foot patrols. But then, the function is the only advantage... when you factor in the cost... it's outrageous. My tax dollars paying $5000 per-person just so cops don't have to walk (God forbid), while they patrol the city?
I think the benefit of a Segway exists only in novelty. It's cool as hell, but not much more can be said than that.
WATYF
was simply that there was huge hype, followed by an expensive product that didn't do anything amazing, other than balance itself. Tons of cool factor, but why do I need it? Why do I need it for $5,000?!? The market answered. We don't.
It's half the price of a cheap car, lots slower, much more limited range, dangerous to ride on a roadway, dangerous to pedestrians on a sidewalk, holds one person, minimal cargo capacity, need I go on? It's not price competitive. It's not going to change the world, but it might become the plaything of people (or municipalities) with too much money.
I go over much the same issues in wanting to replace a car. I'd like a hybrid. Too expensive vs the gas it saves. Ok, how about a used Insight? Only carries two people.
The segway is just another example of a really, really cool idea that doesn't solve a problem.
"I think the benefit of a Segway exists only in novelty. It's cool as hell, but not much more can be said than that."
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly.
Even for cops though, the function is probably bettered by the bicycle. If you're chasing some perp on the Segway, and he darts down a flight of stairs, you can follow him on your bike. Not so much on a Segway...
Carpe Cerevisi - Seize the Beer
I think where the Segway missed out is in the "tuner" aftermarket...
Hell you can't even get spinners for the thing.
Imagine a NASCAR style racing series with souped up Segways ripping around the track @ 100+ mph...
It would be more dangerous than roller derby!
"Oft expectation fails, and most oft there / Where most it promises; and oft it hits / Where hope is coldest, and despair most fits." --From All's Well That Ends Well (II, i, 145-147)
They sure were spamming here with lots of stories & comments about the over-hyped and priced scooter, along with links to their shitty site.
The Segway (in fact nearly any electric scooter) _almost_ works.... but it still doesn't quite have the speed or the range and the definitive legality in bicycle lanes in every city along my route. I got a chance to use one after knee surgery and it was AMAZING the flexibility and control it gives you. In that regard it _is_ better than a traditional sit-on scooter, but the 3 wheeled version is nearly as good. Assuming they get actual range carrying my weight.
So, smart-alec Segway bashers.... what _real_ alernative have you got for me??
A device, whose sole trick is balance achieved electromechanically, should be smart enough to sense when a foot and a hand are on it and thus throw itself into balance mode. Sure, you'd need a key to actually go anywhere, but no on-board logic to help prevent you from falling on your face without following a prescribed power on sequence? Not even optionally? Bad design!
My car has NEVER caused me to hurtle dangerously out of the driver's seat because I failed to turn a key.
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
I started the word in question with "Acc", what I needed was some "Ass" to come along and fix it.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
One interesting thing to note is that it's not so much the over-hype that hurt Segway sales, but the distribution model someone talked Kamen into implementing.
Segways are sold through franchised dealers, just like cars. The dealers had to buy a number of Segways to get their franchise. This intial expense limited the minimum price of Segways to one that would allow dealers to recoup their initial investment. They had to do this before they could start making any money for themselves. Unfortunately, that price was rather high and the economy crashed about the same time the Segway was released. Dealers did not sell as many units as they had expected and had too keep prices high just to stay in business. Because sales never took off, the franchised dealers have made it difficult for Kamen and Co. to explore other opportunities, since they want a profit first (not sure how the Sam's club deal happened). And, if anyone dealer lowers prices, they'll suffer the wrath of the others. So, until the franchises expire or all go out of business, we're stuck with expensive Segways.
Another unintended consequence was the backlash from golf cart dealers. The golf-bag enabled Segway has been banned from most courses thanks to their lobbying efforts. Another huge market opportunity lost.
*sigh*
I would prefer this item http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/04/23/bmws-clever -concept-completed/ to the Segway. No need to redesign cities. It's more practical, combining the convenience and fun of a motorbike with the safety and comfort of a car, plus you actually look cool riding one, unlike a Segway which makes you look like a dork. Opinions please.
Recently, I bought a bicycle for 400 Euros. It's an old military 'velo' from Switzerland, a so called "Ordonnanz-Rad". Build in 1936, it'll definately NOT revolutionize the world, and is not really a bargain as well. But it's still something I'd rather spend silly money on, than something, that its coolness-factor is desputed and usefulness simply not existent. Let alone its cost-performance ratio. Well, as a Computer Science student, I'll definatelly go for a 36' bike, that a poorly conceived 00' invention. After all, the swiss-army-bikes made it through seventy years of history - including a world war - but the Segway, won't last another five years, IMHO... --polemon
EOF
I would prefer this item http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/04/23/bmws-clever -concept-completed/ to the Segway. No need to redesign cities. It's much more practical, combining the convenience and fun of a motorbike with the safety and comfort of a car, plus you actually look cool riding one, unlike a Segway which makes you look like a dork. Opinions please.
You say 'the motor vehicle is still one of the worst possible solutions to the problem of getting a 150lb occupant from one place to another', but how often is that the problem?
The personal transport problem is more often 'how do i quickly transport myself and some luggage 5 miles or more to a specific location at little notice?'
Bicycles are fine for short journeys on flat ground in good weather with no luggage and no schedule to keep. Ditto segways.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
It always struck me that this whole thing was indicative of the world today. The US is the most obese nation on the earth - and what gets invented? A machine that takes out the 100 or so yards of walking that people actually have to do now and then. This wasn't some device that could be used to travel miles for commute purposes (i.e. like a bike) it was a short range couple hundred yard device designed to remove actually doing *any* exercise whatsoever. (Or rather free exercise - I am sure the hope was that upwardly mobile types would pay 5k for the machine and not move an inch all day - then pay another 500 bucks per annum for a gym subscription and lavish themselves in the luxury of not moving an inch while spending an hour on a walking machine).
Not only does it get invented, but it gets more publicity and "four thumbs up" reviews than eating a healthy diet ever could.
When Homer complains that here he was working his ass off chewing and breathing his words are scarily coming closer to reality with each passing year.
Ever since the Segway hit the market and especially since I got a chance to use one for a few short minutes I WANT ONE. If I can ever afford it (when I become rich or Segways become cheap), I will surely buy one.
There are two ultimate problems.
1) Too expensive.
2) You will look like a tool if you ride one of these.
I am not someone really concerned what other people think, but what kind of poser loser would actually buy one of these?
WHAT THE FUCK was that?!!?
Steve Jobs take on the Segway
The Segway costs, oh, $5000 and goes about 10 mph maximum. I have three road bikes, including one that would have been around $1200 new, and they all go much faster than a Segway, can go over curves and dirt and such, can be carried up and down stairs easily, don't need to be plugged in, and can carry a lot of cargo with a rack and panniers (30-40 lbs of groceries, no problem). Because I'm in good shape and ride my bikes every day, I hardly notice the effort of riding unless it's on very steep hills over long distances in warm weather.
You want to talk about a technological marvel that's revolutionized personal transportation? Let's talk about the bike some more! The bicycle was the impetus for the creation of good paved roads in the late 19th century, literally paving the way for motorized automobiles. A human on a bicycle is 3 times more fuel-efficient than a walking human... a Prius with 5 passengers is still about 4 times LESS efficient than a walking human. The bicycle was the first major application of precision ball bearings, spoked wheels, roller chain, and pneumatic tires. Modern racing bikes use materials that are far more imaginative and high-tech than those used in the automotive industry: variable-thickness metal tubing, carbon fiber monocoque frames, exotic steel alloys that actually get stronger when they are welded together, ceramic bearings, etc. Furthermore, there are something like 2 billion people in the world today who own and ride bicycles, FAR exceeding the number who use automobiles.
So, uhm, why the hell does anyone care about the Segway? Is it because we are so lazy in the western world that we can't ever bear to exert ourselves to move short distances and in spaces where cars aren't allowed? The Segway solves none of the problems of the bicycle, and it's much slower, much more expensive, and less maneuverable to boot.
My bicyles
>> Where I live, except for a gas station about 5 minutes away by car, everything is 30 minutes away - by car. I commute about 30 miles each way to work
It seems that your lifestyle is only sustainable given extremely cheap energy. Maybe you should think about moving closer to where you work and useful services (or telecommuting) rather than waiting for technology to maintain your outrageous transportation demands.
It is terrible that governments and councils allow this kind of development where people need to use so much energy to perform daily functions. Energy won't always be this cheap.
Well, I don't think it failed because of the too low price. It was one of those unbelievably stupid ideas that came out of the dot-com era, and you have to wonder what were they smoking when they came up with it.
And it was a PR mess too, when it turned out that it's just a physical spyware product: it called home so they could compile a database of what products were you interested in, for their marketting purposes. I'm sorry, but I find that just as unethical in a physical product as in a program. The way they handled that mess only made it worse, and the security breach where they exposed all the user data didn't help with privacy concerns either. Especially since, again, the only reason that data was there in the first place is that those idiots didn't as much try to offer a valuable service as just run a data collection operation.
Unfortunately this makes it even more stupid. There are many ways to spy on users, and while they're highly unethical, they also cost next to nothing. Spending millions on a physical product and on mailing it, just so you can spy on Joe Average, is pure lunacy.
And in a sense, the CueCat wasn't their product and you weren't their customer. _You_ (or rather your data) were the actual product they were planning to sell to the highest bidder, and the CueCat was just the device to collect that data. The customer, god knows who they had in mind there. As it was the dot-com era, probably some ad provider. And the product, again, was your personal data and shopping habbits. That was the product that flopped, not the CueCat. Was that priced too high or too low? I guess we'll never know, but obviously there weren't many that wanted to pay much for it.
Yes, it could have been turned into something more useful, maybe an optical mouse as you say. I doubt that it would have helped that user data database (their real product) much, though, since if most people just think of it as a mouse and never scan those URLs, they don't contribute much to it.
And it was during the fall of the dot-com era anyway. Advertising money were in free fall for everyone, and VCs were starting to re-discover reality too. I doubt that, even if they could make a working targetted advertising model out of it, they could have possibly gotten enough advertising money to cover their costs.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Apparently the Segway company has developed a new steering system to make the it easier for riders to maneuver. Check it out at: http://www.designnews.com/article/CA6368834.html
Everybodies got one. First, the Segway is not designed to replace walking. It does not compete with walking. If I am going to the corner store like I did before the Segway, I will walk. It is 4 blocks. Short walk. Second, the Segway is not designed to replace a car. It does not compete with cars. If I am going to go 30 miles, I drive. 70% of all car trips in the U.S. are single occupant, 4 miles or less. This is what the Segway was designed to replace. Now, flame away and say ride a bike. Sure, why not. In a suit in Texas in July. In Miami any day of the year. I commute almost 5 miles on the Segway. 20 minutes door to door. Down a bike path. Now, I know, too slow and too wide. I get passed by 1 bike each way each day. I pass many bikes each day. I am 1/4 as wide as the rollerbladers on the path. I am narrower than a lot of the mountain bikes. I spend about 6 cents a day for electricity. What if it rains? Well, remember when I said it does not compete with a car? On rainy days I commute in a car. About 17 minutes door to door. 7 stop signs 19 traffic signals with horrible traffic, on 30 MPH or slower streets will do that to a commute. Over and over on this board, I see references to people being shaky on the machine. Guess what, you are talking about tour groups (probably have less that 1 hour on it)and people trying the machine(probably have less than 5 minutes on it). It takes a some time to give up your balance and allow the machine to balance for you. Try asking someone who really rides one if it is shaky. I ride it hands free often. It is only shaky if you make it shaky. Yes, if you were on it and it was shaking, that is because you were trying to balance it, and it was doing its best to counteract the bizarre control inputs you were giving it. Over and over on this board you hear about Bush falling off. Guess what folks, generally things like turning on the lights and getting the car started are done for presidents. He was delayed, and the old software shut the machine down after 1 minute. So when he was handed the machine, he assumed it was on. Guess what, that software was revised 2 years ago. It is really just 2 very powerful computers, and when they are off, they can't balance anything. Do you blast your computer because you cannot see the letters you type when it is off? Over and over on this board we hear stories about jerky weird steering and running into walls while drunk segway jousting. So it took some time to learn. How long did it take to learn how to steer properly in a car. I have friends who are 30+ who still have not mastered the art of making one arc around a freeway turn. You know this person, don't tell me you don't, the person who steers a little too much, then lets off, the steers too much again. And guess what? The reason there was a Segway article is Segway redesigned the steering so that is not how you control it. The new steering is simply lean while holding the handles in the direction you want to go, and it goes there. Nothing to learn, it simply works. Just a couple Segway facts for all of you who post whatever incorrect facts you need to support your closeminded opinions. Speed=12.5mph/20kph. Range=20-26 miles/32-40km. Maintenance=check tire pressure and charge. Now, I know I will change zero opinions here. Your minds are made up. And you are right. Today for most people this would simply be an expensive toy. I happen to live in a situation where it works. I put gas in the car about once every 6 weeks. But imagine this. Change one lane on the road to an PEV lane. Allow Segways on the Cal train. Ride the Segway 5 miles from home in San Jose the the Train station. Ride the Caltrain to San Fransisco. Ride 3 miles from the train station to your office. Up and down the hills. None in Frisco are nearly steep enough to stop a Segway. Plug in while at work. Meet a friend 2 miles away for lunch. Don't worry about parking or taxis. Be back at work on time. Ride home and at the end of the day you will have spent about 15 cents for electricity. You did not spend $40 on gas and parking. Would that not be nice? Flame away without reading the whole post, I don't mind.
>It seems that your lifestyle is only sustainable given extremely cheap energy. Maybe you should think about moving closer to where you work
/economics/ of the commute impact where we chose to live, then what you suggest will certainly come to be. However, I would prefer to have /more/ freedoms to choose where to live, not less, and so I would prefer a technological solution. I would prefer not to live stacked on top of my neighbors like cordwood because we all, out of necessity, have to live within easy reach of where we work. Most Americans feel the same way, which is why we have "Urban Sprawl" - people want to get away from the cities and each other.
>and useful services (or telecommuting) rather than waiting for technology to maintain your outrageous transportation demands.
>
>It is terrible that governments and councils allow this kind of development where people need to use so much energy to perform daily functions.
>Energy won't always be this cheap.
We live where we could find a home that gave us the best balance of good house, good neighborhood, and good schools within our budget. My biggest concern as far as the commute goes was nothing longer than 30 minutes. My commute normally takes 30-45 minutes. The extra 15 minutes was the tradeoff for having a home where we could have horses.
If and when the
Economics may well mean that people no longer have a choice. But I'd prefer to still have the choice.
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
-1 off topic shows perhaps the reading levels of the 'mods' on here.
"This was all much ado about a $5,000 scooter.'"
Much ado about nothing. Commonly agreed to be a pun on 'Much ado about an O thing'.
He was referring to a vagina. *snigger*
You post violated the racism filter! Your post violated the sexual maturity filter! Your post violated the junk character filter! Your post violated the anti-semetic filter! Your post violated the anti-cowboy-neal-filter! fr1st ps0`|'111
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