Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police

toomanyairmiles writes, "It seems that Wolfgang Priklopil, the communications technician who kidnapped Austrian pre-teen Natascha Kampusch, relied on a Commodore 64 as his primary machine. Interestingly this is presenting some problems to the Austrian computer forensics people. Major General Gerhard Lang of the Federal Criminal Investigations Bureau told reporters it would 'complicate investigators' efforts' and would be difficult to transfer the files to modern computers 'without loss.' Could this be the latest in the criminal world's security strategy? Can we expect to see Spectrums, Archimedes, and Atari STs turning up in police investigations soon?"

Comments

The Charge?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we expect to see Spectrums, Archimedes, and Atari STs turning up in police investigations soon?

What are they going to charge them with? Living in the stone age?

Re:The Charge?

[Anonymous Coward]

This person was found to be connected to the terrorist Junis, a friend of Jon Katz. No doubt he is pirating movies and watching them on his computer.

Re:The Charge?

[narrowhouse]

How long do you think it will be before using a LiveCD will be illegal because it could be used by a terrorist and not leave any traces on the machine? I think this story is just the first of many about how some rogue non-modern equiment impeded law enforcement and those stories will become the basis for laws banning anonymous access and non- "trusted" systems.

Re:The Charge?

[LordSnooty]

Yov don't have to use a modern rig to watch downloaded video, for example...

Question

[daveschroeder]

Could this be the latest in the criminal world's security strategy? Can we expect to see Spectrums, Archimedes, and Atari STs turning up in police investigations soon?

Um, no. This was an aberration; nothing more, even if its use for those reasons was deliberate on his part.

But here's an actual question:

I can absolutely understand and appreciate that people value some of the features and functionality of things like the Commodore 64 and Newton, and many other machines that were considered to be state-of-the-art in their time.

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it? I can understand practical and pragmatic answers like "It's still functional for me" or "I just like it better and I haven't had any problems". But are there other reasons?

I mean, you can literally get systems for free (or next to nothing) that are capable of running various modern operating systems, including various versions of Windows, Mac OS and Mac OS X, myriad Linux distributions to your heart's content, BSD distributions, and so on, that would be much more functional and capable, particularly in the context of the internet and associated applications.

So what's the draw? Why keep running on something like a Commodore 64? Even considering legitimate reasons for continuing to use it, I don't see how sticking with something exceedingly obsolete can be functional when viewed alongside semi-modern systems. I understand people collect all manner of antiques for a variety of reasons, including other things that may be nearly impossible to service or repair easily; is the reason for using obsolete computing equipment the same?

Status? Hobby? Entertainment? Eccentricity? Just to "do it"?

And to reiterate, I can understand collecting pristine Commodore 64s or similar in working order, and even making TCP/IP stacks and such work, just for the sake of doing it. But using it as a primary system exclusively? Some people may own and spend a great deal of time on something like, say, a Model T, but they don't use it as their daily driver...

On another note, I do agree that his system being a Commodore 64 will "complicate investigators' efforts"; but to say that it would be difficult to transfer files "without loss" is disingenuous at best. Do they mean "transfer files" to include possibly-deleted files (in which case I agree there may be "loss")? Do they mean contextual loss, because modern applications may or may not be able to open files and represent context-sensitive features like position, text styles, and so on? Or are they talking about "loss" in that they won't be able to run their standard forensic tools that package everything up with a nice little bow? If they're talking about files representing images and text, I don't care what it is: if it's functional and intact, there's no reason for there to be "loss". I don't care if it takes resorting to eBay, digging up old company engineers, or weirdos on web forums...they should be able to recover anything they need to.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

If it has a word processor and the ability to print what more do many people need?

Is a notebook and pencil obsolete purely because it doesn't incorpoate AJAX and Flash?

Having worked for some time for an IT services company for home users I can assure you that people really do use, nay depend, on obsolete equipment.

Re:Question

[MyNameIsFred]

... but to say that it would be difficult to transfer files "without loss" is disingenuous at best...

I assume that Austrian law requires some sort of chain of custody for evidence similar to that required under American law. Thus, the transfer is probably difficult because they do not have "certified tools" for the transfer. In the US, it is my understanding that simply copying the files with the copy command is not sufficient. That defense lawyers can question how the transfer was made, whether the copy is an accurate representation of the original, etc. I presume similar problems under Austrian law.

Re:Question

[capologist]

Why? Um, why not?

My guess is that he got the machine thirty years ago, it did what he needed, and he never felt a need to replace it.

I still have a Macintosh SE that I dust off and use every now and then. I played around a bit with MusicWorks back in 1988. Sure, there are much better applications these days, but they don't read MusicWorks files, and converting those files to MIDI is a major pain in the ass that I haven't gotten around to yet. MusicWorks doesn't run on modern systems, so when I want to play with one of those little ditties my friends and I created almost twenty years ago, I use my almost twenty-year-old machine to do it.

Re:Question

[homer_ca]

How about spare parts and supplies? Floppy drives and keyboard switches will wear out. How reliable are those 20 year old floppy disks? You can't exactly pop over to Office Depot for single density 5 1/4 floppies.

Re:Question

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Because the original poster asked "But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it?" It may be that he was just a generally all-round weird guy.

Re:Question

[Ralph Spoilsport]

I have an Amiga kicking around in the garage. Why? Because I put a Time Base Corrector (TBC) in it that strips out ALL macrovision and DRM - I get pure video signal. I might get $50 for the machine in a yard sale. But a TBC of the quality I installed in it? HA! We're talking at least $500. So, that obsolete cranky POS that sounds like a snoring pig at start up saves me Serious $$$. The floppy drive in it is marginal, the video card barely works, but the TBC keeps on ticking. So every Friday I rent a few videos, run them through the TBC to my OSX G5, and burn a DVD for future reference...

And THAT'S how it's done.

RS

Re:Question

[Ucklak]

I used my C64 in college and used some free word processor that came in COMPUTE! magazine. I used to put my 'papers' on disk and I had a roomate that would load it up and copy what I wrote. I ended up using a sector editor to hide my papers on disk. I still have my boxed C64, Vic-20, 1541 Drive, and 2 cassette drives. I always thought I would fire up the old C64 but I never had. I did set it up about 5 years ago to see if it still works, and it does, but to go through the monumental task of reviewing all my disks just seems like a waste of time today to me.

I've always wondered if I could remember how to unlock my files if I could find them.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, actually surprisingly reliable, 5 1/4" floppies have always had far fewer problems for me, bad sectors a plenty on 3 1/2" media but i don't once remember needing to leave Central point utilities trawling a 5 1/4" disc for several hours to repair bad sectors.

Re:Question

[MyNameIsFred]

I assumed that the police are looking at this to see if he had an accomplice and/or other victims.

Re:Question

[Arakageeta]

The guy kidnapped a little girl and kept her for 8 years. He's obviously a nut case. I don't think you can back his choice to use a Commodore 64 with reason.

Re:Question

[ehrichweiss]

"Um, no. This was an aberration; nothing more, even if its use for those reasons was deliberate on his part."

You just might be surprised. I know for certain that one of the ways of hiding sensitive data by many hackers, at least until a few years ago, involved using a C=64 datasette and one of the old school answering machines that used cassettes. Put your data on a cassette with the C=64 and then put the cassette inside of the answering machine. From here there are a lot of things you can do with it: one can hook the answering machine up and in the event of trouble, you call yourself, the answering machine answers and overwrites your data; put the answering machine and C=64 in a closet/junk drawer and no one will pay the least bit of attention to them especially if you have the proper context for old machines as such...the list goes on and on.

Re:Question

[Pinback]

Not enough spare CPU for various agencies to slip spyware onto you box without you noticing. Even if they do, you're only a power cycle and a fresh floppy away from being sure the shit is gone.

Re:Question

[smilindog2000]

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it?

Are you kidding? Obviously, because the hottest geek chick on the planet is into them! See:

"Super-hot super-smart geek-chick"

Re:Question

[bar-agent]

It may be that he was just a generally all-round weird guy.

The whole "girl-in-a-dungeon" thing is certainly indicative.

Re:Question

[carnifex0]

The computer crimes unit in the department that I work for (as an IT flunky) seized a C64 about 2 years ago in a kiddie porn case, along with a good number of 5 1/4" disks, but no working drive. They send a global email looking for anyone with old C64 hardware, and I donated my 1541 drive to the cause.

I'm not sure what the outcome was, but I know they still have the C64 up and running in their office.

It does present some interesting complications, from what (little) I know about the forensic examinations they do, they go to great pains not to alter the contents of the original media, using apps like EnCase to snapshot drives they're working with.

homer_ca How reliable are those 20 year old floppy disks?

I'm not sure, but I have an unopened (still shrinkwrapped) box of 10 5 1/4's in my office that I've been considering tossing on eBay just for fun. Buy 'em and find out!

Re:Question

[Velk]

Actually the 'without loss' part may be literally true - what if, along with his c64, they collected a moldering pile of twenty year old tapes ?

It's entirely possible that attempts to play them back by conventional means could result in the physical destruction of the tape in question.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't speak for C64 users, but as an ex-Amigan, I can tell you that I could have easily lived the past decade with one. Frankly the only reason I got rid of mine back in the day was to afford a 486 so I could play Doom. ;-) But I quickly got tired of PC games, DOS and Windows, hence went playing around with Linux soon after. And then the upgrade bandwagon started, with the p120, the AMD K6, etc. Good old AmigaDOS+Workbench ran fine one a 7.15MHz 68000-class CPU with only a couple megs 'o ram. Meanwhile on Windows or Linux/X11 I needed gobs 'o ram to make the system not swap when I started the BIg Ass Application of the day (Netscape, Office, whatever.) whereas in Amigaland the apps were much more efficiently coded.
So basically I wasted a lot of money and time, and if I could go back I'd keep the A1200 (and just run Linux on that if I really wanted to at some point).

Re:Question

[dfghjk]

I guess if I wanted to pirate VHS movies I might see the use of that.

Re:Question

[Grishnakh]

In Austria, yes. But I wouldn't be surprised if defense attorneys are required for dead people in the USA soon. It's almost to the point where you need to consult an attorney before you flush the toilet.

Re:Question

[sp0rk173]

Not everyone needs everything a modern computer offers. Not everyone even needs the internet. It may come as a shock to you, but people survived for several thousand years before computers existed, and arguably lived healthier, more fulfilling lives. It seems perfectly reasonable to expect someone to use a comparatively archaic machine if it suits their needs.

Re:Question

[Funkcikle]

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it? I can understand practical and pragmatic answers like "It's still functional for me" or "I just like it better and I haven't had any problems". But are there other reasons?

Uh...the guy kidnapped and kept a child locked up under his house for eight years. If you find yourself able to understand any of the rather curious things he did, then you might like to contact the Austrian police and give them some advice.

(Unless that advice is "He couldn't afford an Amiga 500.")

Re:Question

[beadfulthings]

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it? I can understand practical and pragmatic answers like "It's still functional for me" or "I just like it better and I haven't had any problems". But are there other reasons?

This guy kidnapped a young child and held her as a prisoner under his garage for eight years. I don't think we can assume that he behaved in ways the rest of us might consider normal or reasonable. Not to make light of the situation, replacing his computer was probably the last thing on his mind.

Having said that, I do agree with you that it ought to be possible for them to review whatever files are associated with the C64--a little creativity would go a long way. I can't help wondering, though, where he got/how he maintained a supply of 5 1/4" floppies. Maybe there's not much there to see.

Re:Question

[XenonOfArcticus]

I keep an Amiga 3000 running, for a variety of historical and legal reasons, though I can basically emulate it on my laptop much more practically.

The chain of evidence and tool certification will be a problem. I could do a forensic examination of that machine, but that hardware pre-dates most digital forensics procedures, so how COULD there be any accepted or certified protocols?

BTW, That DPS TBC is a great piece of gear. It's actually an ISA card that communicates with the host by serial (actually MIDI!). All it needs from the ISA bus is power! You can pull the card out of the Amiga and just hook it up to power, which could be supplied by any old 386 or 486 motherboard. It could talk to a modern computer via MIDI for control. They had a version of the host software for PCs, I think under Windows. The host software should run fine under modern Windows, or Win emulation on Linux. Alternately, the midi commands were published, you could cobble together a Qt Linux controller in a few hours.

Re:Question

[pizpot]

He is dead you idiot. No need to get the data legally is there?

Re:Question

[Myself]

They send a global email looking for anyone with old C64 hardware,

That's sad. You gave up your 1541? I hope they're enjoying it.

It doesn't take C64 hardware, or any other specific hardware, to read those disks. Any high-density PC floppy drive will do, as long as it's the right physical size. PC floppy mechanisms are quite capable, and when connected to the appropriate controller, they can read and write dozens of old floppy formats, from Commodore 160k to Mac 800k and more.

How reliable are those 20 year old floppy disks?

Pretty good, if the data's fresh! The material is surprisingly durable and should've held up fine all this time. But if the last time they were written was 20 years ago, good luck. Estimates vary, but floppies more than 5 or 10 years old stand a good chance of having faded beyond the point of readability with standard drives. If you rewrite them every few years to refresh the data, you should be fine. Oh, and do keep them away from stray magnetic fields.

Re:Question

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

You can pull the card out of the Amiga and just hook it up to power, which could be supplied by any old 386 or 486 motherboard. It could talk to a modern computer via MIDI for control. They had a version of the host software for PCs, I think under Windows. The host software should run fine under modern Windows, or Win emulation on Linux. Alternately, the midi commands were published, you could cobble together a Qt Linux controller in a few hours.

. . .

Um, or you could just leave it in the Amiga.

Re:Question

[NotBorg]

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it?

I've never understood the Amish either.

Re:Question

[Chacham]

I don't see how sticking with something exceedingly obsolete can be functional when viewed alongside semi-modern systems.

Why must modern context be a factor in usability? If it works, it works.

Re:Question

[ktakki]

Amazing. I am in exactly the same situation with my Opcode Midimac files and a "Fat Mac" 512E (circa 1985). Midimac was the first Opcode product, and eventually evolved into Vision/Studio Vision (which lacks a Midimac import function). The structure of the Midimac files -- sequences made of sub-sequences -- pre-dates the .MID format and doesn't really map well to a standard MIDI file. I've done the MIDI-to-MIDI transfer between two Macs, and have about 200 songs in standard .MID format.

But you lose the flexibility. It was great assembling songs from sub-sequences; it lent itself well to pop, with its verse-chorus-verse-bridge form.

The 21-year-old Mac still boots. I have a spare for parts, too. Not sure how much longer those 400K floppies will last, but the quality was better back then.

k.

Re:Question

[John Hasler]

> Why keep running on something like a Commodore 64? Even considering legitimate
> reasons for continuing to use it, I don't see how sticking with something
> exceedingly obsolete can be functional when viewed alongside semi-modern
> systems.

Perhaps he was not interested in doing any semi-modern things. There are people whose computers are not important parts of their lives. I suspect that the police will find nothing interesting.

Re:Question

[thatguywhoiam]

I keep an Amiga 3000 running, for a variety of historical and legal reasons, though I can basically emulate it on my laptop much more practically.

Emulate an Amiga 3000? I'd like to believe you, but that particular machine is notoriously difficult to achieve anything near accurate emulation. Can I ask what you would use?

Re:Question

[dgatwood]

The computer crimes unit in the department that I work for (as an IT flunky) seized a C64 about 2 years ago in a kiddie porn case, along with a good number of 5 1/4" disks, but no working drive.

Are you serious? Wow. That's pretty... umm... bizarre.... Wouldn't viewing porn on something like that be like buying a Blu-Ray player and hooking it up to your 12" RCA Victor black and white from the 1940s?

Oh, dear. Now, I have an image of comic book guy saying, "Oh, baby, your 8-bit graphics make me sooooo hot...." *shivers*

Wow.... Just... wow....

I'm not sure what the outcome was, but I know they still have the C64 up and running in their office.

Playing a bunch of confiscated pirated twenty-year-old computer games, no doubt. :-) I think that's about the only thing anyone ever actually used a Commodore for... or maybe I just think that because it was popular when I was in elementary school....

Re:Question

[dgatwood]

...have you tried an emulator?

Dude, my palm pilot from six or seven years ago could probably emulate that Mac at full speed without any trouble.

Also, midi is trivial to implement, provided you have the original files and some documentation about their format.

If you need help figuring out the file format, here's a tip: a lot of file formats are really simple data structures linked together using addresses of data structures as cross-references. The result is that it is hard to figure them out because there are lots of extraneous changes every time you change something intentionally.

A nice trick for figuring them out is to use a "tridiff" tool. Open the file, make a change, save the change under a new name. Quit the app, open the file, and do a Save As of the file without making any changes. Take the difference between file A and B and ignore any bytes that also changed in file C, and you have significantly reduced the number of changed bytes that you have to consider.

I wrote some tools to help you do this. You can find it as part of the tarball (file download) at http://sf.net/projects/deck2omf.

Sometimes the stuff I do for fun seems awfully close to computer forensics. That download is a good example of this.... :-D

Re:Question

[dgatwood]

No, but if you want a fun logical leap, how many of you have a working C64 in your home^h^h^h^hparents' basement?

:-D

Re:Question

[soft_guy]

The guy kidnapped a little girl and kept her for 8 years. He's obviously a nut case. I don't think you can back his choice to use a Commodore 64 with reason.

On Slashdot, we don't think he's crazy for hideous crimes. We think he is crazy for using an old computer.

Re:Question

[nizo]

Plus you can make them double-sided with a simple hole punch! Don't try that with your usb thumb drives kids.

Re:Question

[dougmc]

I still have a Macintosh SE that I dust off and use every now and then.

Yes, but that system is still much more modern than a C-64. And the police would be able to take it's internal SCSI disk, hook it to a modern controller, and dd off an exact copy. I believe that a modern Mac or Linux box could even mount this disk with little trouble. Your floppies are also relatively easy to read. Or you could just put an ethernet card into your computer and copy the files over the network.

Still, if the police need data off the C64 media, they should have just posted to some C-64 forum stating that it was impossible to get the data copied to a modern computer, and they'd probably find a few people ready to prove them wrong. :)

Re:Question

[syousef]

I can absolutely understand and appreciate that people value some of the features and functionality of things like the Commodore 64 and Newton, and many other machines that were considered to be state-of-the-art in their time....But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it?

This guy kidnapped a pre-teen girl, and you're worried about his strange choice of computer platform? The guy's obviously not thinking straight.

Re:Question

[iamhassi]

"Status? Hobby? Entertainment? Eccentricity? Just to "do it"?"

the guy kidnapped a 10 yr old girl and kept her in his basement for 10 years and you're trying to figure out why he used a 20 year old obsolute computer?

me thinks it's pretty obvious.

Re:Question

[Mr2001]

Er.. if you think she's "super-hot", you need to get out more.

Re:Question

[FixinDixon]

You are trying to analyze a sick mind using a normal point of reference. It would be just as easy to analyze why the guy kidnapped the girl, as it would to figure out why he used a Commodore--wouldn't it? And maybe, the former is just a tad more important? But... that's just me.

Re:Question

[radish]

Or you could just, you know, do what the rest of us do and dupe netflix discs with DVD Shrink. Considerably simpler, quicker, and produces much better results. Oh, and there's no DRM on a VHS tape - it would have to be called ARM.

Re:Question

[iocat]

When it comes to digging old computers, if you have to ask, you'll never understand.

Re:Question

[syousef]

I'm pretty sure that admiting to a Fedral crime on /. is not how it's done. Anyway how does it help your argument to say you're doing it? It'd have been a lot less of a risk to say that you'd heard of it being done etc. An MPAA investigator reading this could probably get a warrant for your real details and a warrant to search your place based what you've just written. I'm not saying it's the most likely thing to happen, but it's not out of the realm of possiblity.

Re:Question

[Moodie-1]

I've got a C-64, two C-128s, two Amiga 500s, and a souped-up (30MHz) Amiga 1200 with an outboard multiGB HD. A couple of years ago I needed to transfer some transcribed song lyrics from the 1200. I hooked it up and plugged it in. It booted up just fine and I managed to get the files copied to an MS-DOS DD floppy and into my PC without much trouble.

Re:Question

[SmittyTheBold]

He's obviously a nut case. I don't think you can back his choice to use a Commodore 64 with reason.

Crazy...crazy like a fox!

Re:Question

[hazem]

On another note, I do agree that his system being a Commodore 64 will "complicate investigators' efforts"; but to say that it would be difficult to transfer files "without loss" is disingenuous at best.

"Without loss"... it really means "total loss"... they're stumped because they opened it up and can't figure out where the hard-drive is.

More seriously, the C64 would be great because all you have to do is power it off and everything is gone. I used to use a stupid system (CTT Commander's Tactical Terminal) in the army that was basically a battle-hardened C64 (or apple ][, since it had a green screen), transmitter and huge antenna. It had no hard-drive so that when the enemy came, you could just turn it off. It was basically a stupid text-messaging system that ONLY worked if a particular aircraft was flying in line-of-site. A satellite phone would work way better, be a lot cheaper and not require 3 people to carry it around.

Re:Question

[DarrylKegger]

No good reason to maintain 'obselete' systems!!!?? tell that to this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor and your grandchildren you heartless brute!

Re:Question

[number11]

I can't help wondering, though, where he got/how he maintained a supply of 5 1/4" floppies.

5 1/4"? It's not that hard to find even 8". Lots of places have 5 1/4". Hmm.. maybe I ought to buy a couple of boxes of 8" for my DisplayWriter. Should be about $10/box on eBay.

Re:Question

[rve]

For thousands of years people lived entire lives without a computer. Maybe the guy just didn't need to browse the web or download mp3's.

Re:Question

[Scrameustache]

My guess is that he got the machine thirty years ago, it did what he needed, and he never felt a need to replace it.

Exactly.
Coincidentally, he did the same with a girl, 10 years ago.

MY questions are: Why are people questioning the hardware choices of a psycho kidnapper? Are they actually looking for a coherent thought process they can relate too? Do they want to find one? Should they turn themselves in the nearest psychiatric ward if they do?

Re:Question

[houseofzeus]

Indeed. For some reason multiple people in this thread appear to have missed this. Realistically if they didn't think there was a possibility for other prosecutions the police wouldn't have bothered looking at it at all.

Re:Question

[AbRASiON]

Here's one small theory.

Perhaps he was a loner? Perhaps he had no friends.
Seriously.
Often you'll find a lot of your computer / electronics purchases are made because of friends recommending X or Y to you or because they have moved forward so you should too.

It's probably a weak theory but honestly I have multiple circles of friends and depending which ones I'm speaking with the most at any period of time can often affect my multiple interests / hobbies.

Re:Question

[TheoMurpse]

You sir are the Steve Wozniak of the using-Amigas-to-pirate-movies scene.

Re:Question

[Siener]

The whole "girl-in-a-dungeon" thing is certainly indicative.

He obviously spent too much time playing Maniac Mansion on that Commodore 64

Re:Question

[N3Roaster]

My grandfather used a Coleco Adam as his primary computer well into the 90s until he could no longer find parts to keep it working. It did what he wanted from a computer and he knew how to use it. Since then he's had a 286 DOS PC that he never did figure out how to use (and that I could have killed my Uncle for even thinking that was appropriate to give him) and a new Mac that he could do things with, but he never really understood it and was always concerned that it was infected with some kind of virus (it never was, but the notion of invisible files didn't sit well with him) so for the most part now he just doesn't use computers. I think that if he had a working Coleco Adam, he'd use that. It would be more functional for him, stacked up against modern systems, because he knows how to use it. I doubt he's alone in this and could certainly see someone continuing to use archaic and obsolete machines simply because they have no interest in learning how to work with modern systems.

Re:Question

[trash eighty]

slashdot has changed then, not too long ago he'd be considered cool for still using a C64

Re:Question

[Elbowgeek]

Interesting comment. Indeed, I used to subscribe to a vintage computer mailing list a couple of years ago and some of the posters were using PDP-11s and such, with Lynx browsers.

It was clearly a case of seeing if that old iron could, and aparrently it somehow did. But they must have been severely limited otherwise...

Re:Question

[drsmithy]

How reliable are those 20 year old floppy disks?

IME, the older a floppy disk is, the more reliable it will be. Certainly, the last few times I've bought (admittedly 3.5", not 5.25") floppies, it hasn't been at all unusual to have a couple not work out of the box.

For those who want reliable floppies, look for some old Windows, DOS, OS/2 or Office installation disks - practically indestructible.

Re:Question

[rxmd]

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it?

Are you kidding? Obviously, because the hottest geek chick on the planet is into them! See:

"Super-hot super-smart geek-chick"

To be honest, I would take that as a proof for the good old "smart/hot/sane - pick any two" chick metric, but then tastes differ.

Re:Question

[identity0]

WTF is wrong with wrong with using an old computer?! I'm typing this on an old 386 right now, in fact.

In the basement, I have an Altair that I kidnapped from the local uni 25 years ago, that I've been teaching to read Perl and play with Lego Mindstorms. I've named her "nappy", because she likes the nappies and ice cream. I feed it to her on punch cards. We are such a happy computer family together, I don't have to hit her much anymore. I love you, you love me, lalalalaOH SHIT THE COPS ARE HERE@!^&@!!

+++ATH
NO CARRIER

Re:Question

[RivieraKid]

Ironically, in cases like this older technology tends to me more reliable. When PCs and 3.5 inch disks and drives became more and more popular, manufacturing quality tended to drop due to mass-production. Why bother making something reliable when it only costs £0.10 (around 0.19 USD) to buy a new one? 10 years ago I never had a problem with floppy disks that cost around £1 each. 5 years ago I had at least a 10% failure rate on disks that cost around £0.10 each. I still have a floppy drive on my computer at home but I almost never use it except in extreme cases such as when Windows needs third party drivers before it will install on my hardware since it refuses to check my USB memory stick for additional files.

Re:Question

[666999]

The rest of the civilised world doesn't live in fear of that happening every day.

Re:Question

[Kidbro]

So what's the draw? Why keep running on something like a Commodore 64?

I spend hours every month - maybe even every week, just maintaining my two machines (Linux at work & Windows at home). Hours. Of wasted time. Each week.
I never did that with my C128 (yah, I had a C128 rather than a C64, but I guess they're pretty equal in the amount of maintenance time required).

Re:Question

[mikael]

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it? I can understand practical and pragmatic answers like "It's still functional for me" or "I just like it better and I haven't had any problems". But are there other reasons?

Perhaps sentimental memories from childhood? Maybe it was the best Christmas present he received as a teenager?

On another note, I do agree that his system being a Commodore 64 will "complicate investigators' efforts"; but to say that it would be difficult to transfer files "without loss" is disingenuous at best. Do they mean "transfer files" to include possibly-deleted files (in which case I agree there may be "loss")?

There shouldn't be any difficulty in recovering data off the floppy disk drive. A simple 5.25" disk drive will still have read disk sector commands accessible from BASIC, that allow data to be read into a character array or string.

Re:Question

[hauntingthunder]

The chain of cusdtody thing i s what i thought the problem was - maybe they will have to have the forensics done with a neutral observer.

And as the perp jumped in front of the train - i dont see they are going to use the evidence agains anyone

Re:Question

[beadfulthings]

Wow. I visited your link; they even have GSA ordering. Now everyone will officially know how old I am (comparatively ancient but still kicking): I was a very young, fresh out of college, person when I was asked to sit on a committee evaluating the pro's and con's of setting up a word-processing center for our organization. I do recall the fellow from Lanier showing up to do his dog and pony show. He stated that they were using a fairly new technology that he believed would revolutionize the field. It was called (here he produced an 8" from his briefcase with a flourish) the floppy disk. That was in the Bicentennial year. We ended up going with Wang.

I'll just lean on my cane here and dodder on off. I think my new Mac may be getting here today.

Re:Question

[CAIMLAS]

It's probably just as simple as him having it, and it being something both familiar and comfortable to him, whether intellectually or emotionally. People who kidnap little girls for devious reasons tend to have psychological hang-ups when it comes to forming relationships and stick to what they know, often due to a traumatic event in their past.

If I were to guess, I'd guess he was molested as a boy, and that he found sollace in a C64.

Re:Question

[Reservoir Penguin]

Please help!!! I was kidnapped by Moodie-1 20 years ago and forced to port Linux to his collection of obsolete computers!

Re:Question

[Duhavid]

I have 1 C64.

3 apple II's.

1 Atari 800
1 Atari 1040st.

All working, as of last check. The C64 is in
my home "office".

Re:Question

[hab136]

In Austria, yes. But I wouldn't be surprised if defense attorneys are required for dead people in the USA soon. It's almost to the point where you need to consult an attorney before you flush the toilet.

They are required, since both the state and the victim may try to recover money from the dead person's estate.

Re:Question

[XO]

Yeah, really, it's so difficult to:

  LOAD "$",8

  LIST

sheesh.

I haven't touched a Commodore since like 1990, and I still can operate it. Plus, it's got all the software with it, I imagine, unless the guy went through and blew up all his software before he killed himself. In which case, once it's gone, it's probably gone. Anything aside from the "fast erase" pretty throroughly deleted whatever was on the disks.

Re:Question

[mdwh2]

Emulate an Amiga 3000? I'd like to believe you, but that particular machine is notoriously difficult to achieve anything near accurate emulation. Can I ask what you would use?

WinUAE ( http://www.winuae.net/ ) does the job well. I'm not sure how well the chipset emulation is these days, but the emulated CPU speed is way faster than the fastest 68060 Amigas that ever existed.

Re:Question

[mdwh2]

Clearly, since this guy used a Commodore 64, the Government should criminalise possession of Commodore 64s! After all, it's the same logic used by the UK Government to justify criminalising images between consenting adults...

On that note, I can now see a plan to convert images to Amiga IFF format, and save them all onto Amiga formatted floppies...

Re:Question

[daveschroeder]

No, dumbass, I was saying "legitimate" in the context of the reasons I mentioned before, like "it just works" or "I just like using it", not legal vs illegal. Your tinfoil hat needs some adjustment.

Re:Question

[smellsofbikes]

What sort of TBC did you get? I have an Amiga or two...

Re:Question

[sootman]

Neat, but I recommend HandBrake (my personal favorite to go from DVD to H264 or MP4) or DVDBackup (to get 'clean' VIDEO_TS folders.) Not sure if there's something like DVDShrink (which also makes VIDEO_TS folders but can shrink them to any desired size.) I used a DVMC and some S-Video cables to move my original trilogy from LaserDisc to DVD but I can't think of a good reason to go digital->analog->digital with a DVD.

Also, check to see if your local library for DVDs. Mine has quite a collection. I like to support their efforts by letting a couple discs go overdue every once in a while.

Re:Question

[poot_rootbeer]

So every Friday I rent a few videos, run them through the TBC to my OSX G5, and burn a DVD for future reference...

And THAT'S how it's done.

That's how WHAT is done? Copyright infringement? Media piracy?

May I suggest that you try watching your rented movies instead of just burning archival copies to squirrel away? You might find it to be a more entertaining pastime.

Re:Question

[BoogieChile]

Yes, for security, one.

Money, for two.

Yes, you can get the operating system to run on all this lovely modern hardware for free, but you don't get the hardware for free, do you? Well, obviously not you personally, possibly (being a geek an' all), but for the average guy. Not saying that this kidnapper guy is average, obviously...but if you had a computer that did everything you wanted, you didn't care about the fancy pictures and graphics, 40 columns of text in two colors is fine for some people.

So, all you spend money on are cassettes and disks - can you even BUY 5+1/4 inch floppys anymore?

For twenty years.

Rather than spending between oh, say from 500 up to 2 grand (on average) what, three, four years?

I could guess that if you're such a tightass that you have to steal a girlfriend, brainwash her into loving you rather than do it proper and spend money on diamond rings and things, it's probably not such a far step to never upgrading your computer. what say that he was obsessive over it? He might have kept it immalucate, and there you go, folks! A computer that lasted for twenty years!

What else...As far as why this particular guy stuck with his old crumble-door, well, given the state of his mind to do what he did in the first place, there could be aaaaaaaalll sorts of reasons why..SOme of them you may well REALLY not want to know about.

And finally, if they really want the data that bad, they have the resources (and the technology) to rubuild it. If they really want the data, they could even break out the electron microscopes (I reckon the grains in a floppy disk woudl make this a non-trivial task - the disks were only 170KB, you know...

Re:Question

[tehcyder]

We think he is crazy for using an old computer.

At least he wasn't running Windows 1.0 or something.

Re:Question

[tehcyder]

The whole "girl-in-a-dungeon" thing is certainly indicative

Jeez, talk about jumping to conclusions! Give the guy a break.

Re:Question

[daniel_mcl]

You're talking about the same police that complained that Mozilla was complicating their investigations because the menu options to get at history and cache were different. These are not the most computer-saavy people in the world, here.

Re:Question

[DakotaSmith]

Actually, if this is actually a computer primarily used by a terrorist, then what it indicates is that terrorists are even less a threat than originally thought. Consider the expense and specific skills necessary to obtain and handle nuclear material, biological weapons, etc. If the best a terrorist can come up with for computers is a C64 -- not even an Amiga! -- then this indicates an extremely low level of funding.

Re:Question

[Crudely_Indecent]

I must agree with you. As a forensic examiner, I would hesitate to say that any data is 'difficult to process without loss.' This begs the defense to go over the forensic procedures with a fine toothed comb and their own expert in order to throw doubt on the validity of the data. They'd have been better off to keep their mouths shut and find a commidore expert.

It's been a while since I touched a commidore, but it occurs to me that they could use serial and z-modem and upload the files. No direct disk copying necessary. Port MD5SUM to commidore and sum the disk contents, then sum the contents uploaded - done.

There are far too many people involved in computer crime investigation that shouldn't be allowed to touch a computer. This evidence will probably be tainted by the time they're done with it.

Re:Question

[LocalH]

MacTheRipper can remove Macrovision from analog signals?

Re:Question

[Digz]

and a souped-up (30MHz) Amiga 1200 with an outboard multiGB HD

You call that souped up? ;)

My Amiga Tower of Power (before I sold it) had:

• 233 mHz PowerPC 603e
• 60 mHz 68060
• 256 MB RAM (or 128 MB - I forget)
• Mediator PCI busboard
• Voodoo 3 3000 PCI video card
• 10Mb PCI Ethernet card
• 20 GB HDD
• Amiga OS 3.9
• CDRW drive
• Fast IDE controller
• Elbox tower case

Re:Question

[nutsy]

That was before Slashdotters all became Steve Jobs zombies. And part of the racial memory for Apple fanatics is II-era bitterness over how much more capable yet less expensive the '64 was.

Why go that far?

[Locke2005]

Any box that doesn't run Windows confuses most investigators. Yep, all their tools are Windows-specific.

Re:Why go that far?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Two words- Null Modem and Hyperterminal will transfer all the files stored on 5.25" floppies for that Commodore 64 (or even stored on cassette tape) to their Windows machines just fine. It's just ASCII after all, no big problem.

Re:Why go that far?

[iluvcapra]

Quickly becoming a meme:

Only a terrorist wouldn't use Windows.

Re:Why go that far?

[Morphine007]

Because in most forensic investigations, they remove the hard-drive from the PC and then perform the investigation using another operating system guaranteed to not have any nasty surprises built in. They're not going to run the risk that buddy has a small script that deletes his entire hard drive if he doesn't hit ctrl-a-s-d-f-enter within seconds of booting up.

There's likely more to it than that as well, but the point is they generally don't want to use the system they've confiscated...

Re:Why go that far?

[gkhan1]

Exactly. They also might be cautious accidentally altering things on the drive, timestamps for instance are very useful for such investigations. You never do it from inside the system, you always do it from an outside OS.

Re:Why go that far?

[Jane_Dozey]

Actually they remove the drive, clone it and then run the investigation on the copy of the drive. This means and nasty surprises won't damage the original evidence and they can make another copy if needs be.

Re:Why go that far?

[grumpyman]

>>Any box that doesn't run Windows confuses most investigators. Yep, all their tools are Windows-specific.

It's most likely because most people uses Windows? If the 60-70% of the world uses Mac, I'm sure most of the tools are Mac specific. Second, about "all their tools", did you just check out all the tools all police around the world uses? And we're talking about Commodore 64 here, not BSD/Linux or any of that sort. Coz if it is about BSD/Linux, there won't be such a news.

It's not that I like MS or anything but this is total troll and non-insightful: but yeah, in slashdot, moderators will take bait on any MS bashing.

Re:Why go that far?

[Danga]

Any box that doesn't run Windows confuses most investigators.

You are far from correct. A lot of forensic investigators I have talked to actually use linux at times to do things such as image drives which is safer to do on linux than Windows and they are not straight Windows users.

Yep, all their tools are Windows-specific.

The reason they do use Windows tools most of the time is because the tried and true forensic applications are developed for Windows such as Forensic Toolkit Pro http://www.accessdata.com/products/ftk/ and EnCase http://www.guidancesoftware.com/products/ef_index. asp and since they work and have been well tested on Windows it makes little sense to increase the likelyhood of problems by porting these applications to other OS's. The other big reason most tools are Windows centric is obviously because Windows is the most widely used OS and people like to use what they already have and know.

Windows may not be the greatest OS, and I know people love to bash it, but that does not mean the Windows tools developed for forensic investigations are of low quality. I work as a software developer in this field so I have a decent view on what the situation is and your comment was way far off.

Re:Why go that far?

[Sathias]

Quickly becoming a meme:

Only a terrorist wouldn't use Windows.

One man's linux zealot is another man's freedom fighter?

Re:Why go that far?

[SeaFox]

Any box that doesn't run Windows confuses most investigators.

Actually the Canadian Mounties are quite good with Macs.
linky

Re:Why go that far?

[iluvcapra]

Even I am a little shocked by how quickly this went to +5 Insightful. I thought +5 funny was possible, but gee.

Re:Why go that far?

[Dun Malg]

Two words- Null Modem and Hyperterminal will transfer all the files stored on 5.25" floppies for that Commodore 64 (or even stored on cassette tape) to their Windows machines just fine. It's just ASCII after all, no big problem.

Hah. It's amazing how modern computers have made us forget how little we used to have, and how much of it was proprietary as well. First, it's not ASCII, but PETSCII. Granted, the only serious difference is that lower and uppercase are swapped, but it's still worth noting. Second, The C64 User Port is capable of serial communications, but it isn't RS-232. It requires a level converter to bring it up from the simple TTL signals it puts out. Third, the C64 has essentially no significant operating system functionality upon powerup. It's not a simple matter of typing "cat PERVFILES > /dev/UserPort" or some such. You have to either find someone who knows how to write a disk-to-serial dumper, or maybe find a terminal program you can do a text send with. Do you know how to access a file on a C64 disk?

Re:Why go that far?

[T-Ranger]

Well, your fucked then. Turn in your geek card, dont let the door hit your ass on the way out. C= 64's use PETSCII. Amongst the most important thing you wont transfer (or rather, will mangle in transfer) is the Big Gong sound. And, of course, C=64's dont have RS-232 ports. But thanks for playing; knowing one OS besides Windows does not an expert make.

Re:Why go that far?

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Actually, we're smart enough to mount read only.

What, using Linux? Here's a clue for you:

EXT3-fs: INFO: recovery required on readonly filesystem.
EXT3-fs: write access will be enabled during recovery.
kjournald starting. Commit interval 5 seconds
EXT3-fs: dm-2: orphan cleanup on readonly fs
ext3_orphan_cleanup: deleting unreferenced inode 2608100
ext3_orphan_cleanup: deleting unreferenced inode 9060808
ext3_orphan_cleanup: deleting unreferenced inode 9060744
ext3_orphan_cleanup: deleting unreferenced inode 9060620
ext3_orphan_cleanup: deleting unreferenced inode 9060367
ext3_orphan_cleanup: deleting unreferenced inode 9060357
EXT3-fs: dm-2: 6 orphan inodes deleted
EXT3-fs: recovery complete.
EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered data mode.

Re:Why go that far?

[MajroMax]

Actually, we're smart enough to mount read only.

What, using Linux? Here's a clue for you:

EXT3-fs: INFO: recovery required on readonly filesystem. EXT3-fs: write access will be enabled during recovery.

Not if you use an IDE cable with the write pins removed.

Re:Why go that far?

[Junior J. Junior III]

Delete the hard drive? It's a Commodore Freakin' 64... teh police will think that the hard drive VAPORIZED.

Re:Why go that far?

[Lehk228]

which is why, if you are a serious criminal you rewire your IDE hard driv's power pins so anything other than your custom rewired plug will toast the IC

or better yet, will trigger a small explosive charge inside the drive.

Re:Why go that far?

[dougmc]

What, using Linux? Here's a clue for you:

EXT3-fs: INFO: recovery required on readonly filesystem.
EXT3-fs: write access will be enabled during recovery.

And here's a clue for you ...

You mount it in ext2 mode. ext3 is just ext2+journalling, and you can mount a ext3 partition as ext2. This doesn't replay the journal, so you won't get to see any data actually in the journal, but the rest of the data you can see. And there are other ways that you can ensure that Linux will not write to the disk -- for example, `hdparm -r /dev/whatever' will tell the driver to not let Linux write to the disk, no matter what. That will certainly work for IDE drives, and probably other drive types as well.

However, the police don't generally do this, as it's not quite proof against writing *enough*. Instead, they generally connect the drive to a device that is certified to make writing to the drive IMPOSSIBLE (by cutting that wire, or filtering out those commands) and use the drive that way, either to poke around it or to dd the drive to another drive where you can do your work.

Of course, in this case, the guy is dead, so the standard rules of evidence probably don't need to be applied as carefully. It's not like this data will be used to convict him or something ...

Re:Why go that far?

[the_ridd1er]

Ever tried to just check the status of an outage with your high-speed internet Connection?

Please goto start... Then Click Settings.. Then Click control pannel..

(What you type)

ifconfig -a; more /etc/resolv.conf ......

Most people don't know anything but windows. Why would a police agency be any different.

Re:Why go that far?

[Clovert Agent]

Nonsense. There are plenty of good forensics tools which deal with Linux/Unix, Apple, and various PDA systems. Plenty of open source forensics tools, for that matter, many of which are Linux specific.

http://opensourceforensics.org/

Anyway, what platform a tool runs on makes no difference. Forensic data is acquired to an image which is then taken away for analysis. You never investigate a system in situ, much less using its own operating system. EnCase, probably the best known commercial forensic software, runs on Windows but will happily analyse source data from most common operating systems.

Re:Why go that far?

[mdwh2]

Reminds me of this guy who was arrested for "looking suspicious" - I wonder what the police made of his BeBox...

Re:Why go that far?

[poot_rootbeer]

It's just ASCII after all, no big problem.

Being that it's a Commodore 8-bit, it's probably actually PETSCII instead. Then what? It could take MINUTES to write a character-set conversion script!

Re:Why go that far?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Because in most forensic investigations, they remove the hard-drive from the PC and then perform the investigation using another operating system guaranteed to not have any nasty surprises built in. They're not going to run the risk that buddy has a small script that deletes his entire hard drive if he doesn't hit ctrl-a-s-d-f-enter within seconds of booting up.

This is a Commodore 64- the operating system is in ROM and can't be overwritten. You can't write a small script, because there's no scripting language that runs automatically on this system. And there is no hard drive at all- hard drives for microcomputers was a laughable idea at the time (as the typical hard drive held a mere 128MB on a 24 inch platter, and the drive itself was the size of a washing machine).

There's likely more to it than that as well, but the point is they generally don't want to use the system they've confiscated...

And their reasons don't apply in this case.

Re:Why go that far?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Do you know how to access a file on a C64 disk?

It's been a while, but as I remember it's got a cut down version of BASIC in ROM that contains Open, Linput, and close statements.....

Re:Why go that far?

[Morphine007]

I'll break with slashdot tradition here:

You're absolutely right... I can't believe it's been that long since I used a C=64 that I forgot about the no hard-drive thing...

LOAD "ACLUE",8,1

Re:Why go that far?

[tehcyder]

Any box that doesn't run Windows confuses most investigators. Yep, all their tools are Windows-specific.

Really? Any evidence to back that up?

Re:Why go that far?

[LWATCDR]

"It's just ASCII after all, no big problem."
Actually no it isn't The C64 didn't use ASCII it used petscii. A mutant for of ascii.
Also odds are very good that any "text" on the C64 isn't in ascii anyway.
Could be in any number of strange formats from WordPRO to FleetStreetWriter. Maybe in Geoworks, or goodness knows what.
Just like back in the days before Everyone used Word on PCs the 64 had many word processors and each had it's own format. Almost nothing was stored just as a text file on a C64.

Re:Why go that far?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Could be in any number of strange formats from WordPRO to FleetStreetWriter. Maybe in Geoworks, or goodness knows what.

At one time in my life, I specialized in helping people transfer their files from one system to another by making the destination system look like a printer. At that point, it's just a matter of openingup the word processor in question and "printing" the file to a terminal emulator on the other system. And that, is usually ASCII- even if the primary system is PETSCII.

Re:Why go that far?

[LWATCDR]

That might be possible.
If the program supports printing to a serial printer. The C64 had a custom bus and custom printers that took patscii.
If it is geoworks it may be harder to do. It used a graphical output.
Heck it is all possible. All things are possible with time, talent, and knowledge.
It just wouldn't be easy. I was just point out that the data probably wasn't stored in a text file and that it wasn't in ascii.

Re:Why go that far?

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

You mount it in ext2 mode. ext3 is just ext2+journalling, and you can mount a ext3 partition as ext2. This doesn't replay the journal, so you won't get to see any data actually in the journal, but the rest of the data you can see.

Have you tried that? I just tried that on Linux 2.6.17-1-686 (packaged in Debian), and it doesn't work. IIRC, an ext3 filesystem is only backwards-compatible with ext2 when it's cleanly unmounted, and this behaviour is by design. Otherwise, you'd get data corruption when you try to replay the journal on a ext3 filesystem that's been modified (using an ext2 driver) since the journal was created.

And there are other ways that you can ensure that Linux will not write to the disk -- for example, `hdparm -r /dev/whatever' will tell the driver to not let Linux write to the disk, no matter what.

Yes, but it doesn't work how you might think hdparm -r sets a flag (via the BLKROSET ioctl) that is honoured by each individual filesystem driver, as well as the drive that presents block devices to user space (see ext3_load_journal in fs/ext3/super.c and open_bdev_excl in fs/block_dev.c). It is not handled by a lower layer like the IDE driver or the drive itself, unlike what you might think given that you're using hdparm.

The feature doesn't look designed to guarantee read-only operation, and I personally wouldn't consider it to be trustworthy. As you say, it doesn't seem likely that a court would take it as a given that all accesses were read-only (especially if you're trying to establish that a certain file was or wasn't deleted at a certain time). On the other hand, it's not always the rules of evidence that you're worried about. You don't want some Linux bug causing you to destroy your only copy of the information you need to solve a crime.

Come to think of it, I wonder how easy it is to modify the firmware on a hard drive these days. It would be an interesting exercise to put a dead man's switch, which wipes out some critical information and then deletes itself, into the IDE firmware. Hmm...

Re:Why go that far?

[julesh]

This is a Commodore 64- the operating system is in ROM and can't be overwritten.

It is entirely possible to pop the ROM out and replace it with your own.

Re:Why go that far?

[ytm]

There are no data write pins on IDE cables. Removing WR pin (data direction) would prevent the host from sending any commands to the device - including 'identify' and 'read sector'.

Have they forgotten RS232?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

From the article:

There are emulators available which can make a modern PC capable of running Commodore 64 programmes but Maj Gen Lang said it would be difficult to transmit the data from Priklopil's machine to a modern computer "without loss".

What, have they forgotten how to create a DIN-5 to Sub-D9 cable? I'm sure google has several websites with the schematic of the machine (also available in the original user's manual), it shouldn't be THAT hard to construct an asynchronous serial cable.

Re:Have they forgotten RS232?

[Sigma 7]

What, have they forgotten how to create a DIN-5 to Sub-D9 cable? I'm sure google has several websites with the schematic of the machine (also available in the original user's manual), it shouldn't be THAT hard to construct an asynchronous serial cable.

I'm not sure that's the issue. While it may be a problem in the short term because of the unuaual computer type, this is because of procurement of the materials required to transfer the data. You have to buy the cable, review the specs, and test the cable to make sure that it is working - and you'll need a spare 5 1/4" to make sure that it works without risking the chance of accidently writing to the evidence.

Now, through an emulator, it is true that you get an "image". However, the standard d64 image doesn't contain anything fancy - for example, it does not contain copy-protection information found in some games. While such advanced information is unlikely to be found in the disks for evidence, investigators still need to be prepared for anything non-standard. (The most common trick would be Track-36ing semi-sensitive data - investigators aren't fooled if they know what to look for. Anything else is probably difficult to reproduce on home systems.) Because of this, they need to pour over technical manuals for the C64, find ways of hiding important data, and get equipment designed to read 5 1/4" floppies (other than the 1541 disk drive.)

Plus, images don't store erased data - computer forensics sometimes needs to "unerase" information on the disk. At least they are good enough for consumer-grade data transfers where you only need to retrieve files rather than do forensic work.

FINALLY

[drfrog]

My Basic skills will rule them all

Re:FINALLY

[ralf1]

Applesoft FTW - Poke 33,0!!!

Re:FINALLY

[NoMaster]

My Basic skills will rule them all

And in the darkness bind them.

Re:FINALLY

[pklinken]

UP PLEASE.

let me at it!!

[illuminatedwax]

I'll have that bugger fixed in no time!!! ...as long as it involves writing elementary BASIC loops, LOAD "$",8,1 or beating Space Taxi or Questron.

Re:let me at it!!

[dgmartin98]

LOAD "$",8,1 would load your directory as a into a predetermined section of memory which is not useful for viewing.

What you probably meant was LOAD "$",8 to load the directory into the BASIC section of RAM so that you can view it with LIST

Space Taxi was lots of fun... ahh the memories !

Re:let me at it!!

[Idarubicin]

LOAD "$",8,1

You meant LOAD"*",8,1 or LOAD"$",8--right?

Re:let me at it!!

[illuminatedwax]

fuck dude, i was 5

Re:let me at it!!

[markmier]

I browse at +3. I saw the error, and was about to correct illuminatedwax but decided to check out the "replies below my threshold". I'm very happy that other people had already corrected the error. I remember many times typing LOAD"$",8,1 then LIST, then kicking myself and retyping LOAD"$",8 after the gibberish flowed.

And of course there was the LOAD"*",8 debacle.

And the "run/stop RESTORE!!!!!11!!1!" action.

Ah, the memories.

We are such geeks! I love Slashdot!

Re:let me at it!!

[illuminatedwax]

You should try the U of M style of viewing - you dont have to load a new page to see below-your-threshold comments, and you can control things more finely. It also doesn't completely suck anymore.

Followup

[daveschroeder]

I would say this does raise another valid point, though: as systems and media age, it's actually quite an interesting question how all of this data that isn't transferred to modern day systems will be dealt with, both from a technological and machine- and media-aging point-of-view. And in the context of criminal investigations, what happens if evidence is "lost" (or simply unrecovered) from a 25-year-old computer in a murder investigation which has no statute of limitations? It's an equally difficult question for governments, corporations, and academic institutions that actually *want* to keep the data but are having trouble instituting standards, policies, and mechanisms for data retention.

Re:Followup

[ShawnDoc]

It also points out one of the problems with purchasing DRM'd media files. Since you are locked into a certain format, what do you do when technology changes and you can't convert your media into the new format or the company behind the DRM folds and there's no way to port the authentication system to a new system? My parents dubbed their records onto tapes. And recently I've helped my mom convert records and her old tapes into MP3 format. Something that couldn't be done if DRM existed then.

Re:Followup

[Ninwa]

"And in the context of criminal investigations, what happens if evidence is "lost" (or simply unrecovered) from a 25-year-old computer in a murder investigation which has no statute of limitations?"

In the context of a criminal investigation I'd say take those situations as a case-by-case basis. If they want the case solved badly enough they will find a way to contract someone to develop hardware (or emulation?) that will read said data, or they will find a way to have tax-payers fund it. Either way, if a medium exists that has been "forgotten" it's most likely that not everyone has forgotten how to access it, or that research cannot be done in order to access it.

Re:Followup

[SachiCALaw]

There may be no statute of limitations, but if the computer (and thus the evidence in the computer) is in the hands of the government, the government will be subject to statutory and constitutional limits that prohibit undue delay in prosecutions. The government would need to prove that it had just cause for failing to bring a prosecution within the time set by law, and laziness in getting the evidence from an old computer would probably not be a valid excuse.

Re:Followup

[BiggyP]

I hope you created lossless backups as well, otherwise you'll need to rerecord the whole lot when MP3 falls into obsolescence. It's true though, DRM and the kids who don't seem to care about it as long as their iPods work are a big problem, they don't appear to have the slightest idea how little control they have over the music they're "buying". I guess enough of them are listening to such completely forgettable rubbish that the desire to return to those tracks in several years time is going to be, at best, minimal.

Re:Followup

[Feyr]

a valid, but incomplete point. i'd say the worst-case is inverted.

what if you're convicted (unjustly) today of murder, and in 25 years they need to revisit the case in light of new evidence. they might want to access the old one to reach a new (favorable hopefully) judgment.

Re:Followup

[18hrs]

I would say this does raise another valid point, though: as systems and media age, it's actually quite an interesting question how all of this data that isn't transferred to modern day systems will be dealt with ...

Yea, interesting indeed... I was just reading about that in Kurzweil's "The Singularity is Near." He says, "Ironically the ease of approaching this information is inversely proportional to the level of advancement of the technology used to create it" (page 327) referring to the boxes of old media he has stashed away.

I can definitely relate, as I have some old documents in floppy disks from a high school English class that I can't get Word to open.

Re:Followup

[johansalk]

What you do then is quite simple; you'll have to re-buy your media files, and I presume that's a reason why the companies seem to like it so much .

Re:Followup

[Midnight Thunder]

It also points out one of the problems with purchasing DRM'd media files.

From the point of view of big media, this is not a problem. For them it suits them just fine. Unfortunately for the buying public this is a major issue.

Re:Followup

[eqisow]

"Since you are locked into a certain format, what do you do when technology changes and you can't convert your media into the new format or the company behind the DRM folds and there's no way to port the authentication system to a new system?"

Buy everything all over again, duh! That's half the point of DRM isn't it?

Re:Followup

[NoMaster]

Unfortunately for the buying public this is a major issue.

No, unfortunately, not is . It will be , but by that time it'll be all-pervasive - basically, too late to do anything about it.

I know the common thing to do is berate corporations for having no long-term vision - but the RIAA/MPAA/??AA do. They've perfected the technique of hovering around that fine line between "too fast, and people will notice" and "too slow, and we'll be obsoleted before we achieve our objectives".

Re:Followup

[westlake]

Since you are locked into a certain format, what do you do when technology changes and you can't convert your media into the new format or the company behind the DRM folds and there's no way to port the authentication system to a new system?

You do what everyone has done since the days of Edison's wax cylinders. You buy into whatever format is convenient and practical for the moment and let the archivists worry about preservation of the analog and digital masters.

Re:Followup

[HappyEngineer]

I feel your pain.

I own a piece of software that converts images into a file format usable by my programmable embroidery machine. The software cost me $1000. It worked fine until the company folded. Now the software won't start up. I don't know why, but there isn't much I can do.

At this point I can either pay another $1000 for some other software, or I can illegally buy a cracked version of the software. In the latter case I have to take the chance that the seller will include a trojan in their software. I consider this totally unfair.

When a company goes belly up, the law should stipulate that copy protection mechanisms can be legally circumvented. In that case I could go and find a reputable company to get the crack from. As it stands I'm not sure what I'll do.

Re:Followup

[blincoln]

As it stands I'm not sure what I'll do.

You could:

- Crack the program you already have a license for yourself.
- Find the spec for the format and write your own converter.
- Pay someone to do either of the above.

I can't imagine the file format is that hard to reverse-engineer if there are already multiple third parties out there selling converters.

Re:Followup

[Z34107]

When a company goes belly up, the law should stipulate that copy protection mechanisms can be legally circumvented

The DMCA already does this. See page 5 of this summary, the part that talks about reverse engineering for compatibility.

Although not present in the summary, I believe (meaning I lost the original article) the DMCA also makes exceptions for cracking copy protection, such as a hardware dongle, on legitimately purchased software if the dongle no longer works and there's no real way to get another one. That section could also apply to what you're talking about.

Re:Followup

[HappyEngineer]

It's the program I need, not the files. The program will open up gif or jpg or png files and then convert them into a file format for my programmable embroidery machine. It's not a simple thing to do. It has to create a path for the thread to go which makes the resulting design look good when it's sewn out.

The file format it converts into is readable by other programs as well as my machine, so there's no problem there.

Are you saying that it's actually legal for me to buy a cracked version of the software because I already own a legal but non-working version of it?

The people doing the selling aren't selling converters. They're actually selling cracked versions of the program. The program requires a dongle to run. I have the dongle, but it stopped working when the company went under. I'm pretty sure that even if it's legal for me to buy the cracked version, it probably isn't legal for them to sell it (despite the fact that the company went under and the product isn't being sold at all anymore). But, I guess that's not my problem.

Re:Followup

[HappyEngineer]

Thanks! That's what I needed to know.

So now I know it's legal for me to crack the program to make it work without a dongle. Now I just need to figure out how to get someone reputable to crack it for me.

Re:Followup

[Z34107]

Point is, the law does stipulate that the protections can be circumvented, as per parent poster.

Besides, any slashdot poster should at least know where to start with the cracking.

Re:Followup

[MrResistor]

It's the program I need, not the files.

Yeah, that's what he said, you could get a program made that would convert your image files to that format. If you shopped your local university for talent, you could probably find someone who would do it for much less than $1000.

I have another alternative for you: Hunt down some officers of the company and find out who owns the rights to the software (somebody does, they don't just disappear). Maybe they can give you a crack for it, or suggest a reputable dealer you can get it from. Or maybe they can give you a code that will make the dongle happy again (same thing, really). Or maybe you can get a bunch of other people who are in the same boat as you to band together and buy the source code, sort of like the Blender project did.

Re:Followup

[Inoshiro]

"Unfortunately for the buying public this is a major issue."

Perhaps this is why those torrents of bits are so popular!

Seriously, though, all companies do when they take actions like this is make it easier for the majority to side with not paying for content.

Re:Followup

[shmlco]

Well, I have a bunch of VHS movies that no longer seem to fit into the little slot in the front of the DVD player. Those I really liked I bought again; those I didn't... well, I knew that when I bought into the new format.

Re:Followup

[fastgood]

in the context of criminal investigations, what happens if evidence is "lost"

Trying to recoup lost bits floating inside a 300bps acoustic coupler modem is something those new CSI guys don't want to mess with.

And you can't hardly find an old timer to clean the crud that accumulates in those rubber earcups after a questionable BBS session.

Re:Followup

[CAIMLAS]

The irony is that being able to legally circumvent something while it still exists may have saved a given company from going belly-up. Many products are commercially unfeasable without the "tinkerer" market.

Re:Followup

[tehcyder]

my programmable embroidery machine

Now that's a phrase I never thought I'd see on slashdot...

Re:Followup

[shaitand]

The law should stipulate that copy protection mechanisms are an alternative to legal copy protections, therefore a company should have a choice between technical measures to prevent usages and copying the company would like to restrict and legal protections that grant limited protections afforded in pre-dmca copyright law.

Either companies work within the bounds of the law and the legal controls granted by copyright and make no attempt to gain greater control or they go vigiliante. There is no reason to let them have their cake and eat it to.

Re:Followup

[HappyEngineer]

*smile* If it helps, I have embroidery files for space invaders and pacman designs that I made.

Here you can get my designs for Berzerk, Centipede, and Pong.

Even Better

[coop247]

I also hear they are having trouble getting information from his IBM typewriter. Apparently he used White Out to clear the data.

Re:Even Better

[triso]

I also hear they are having trouble getting information from his IBM typewriter. Apparently he used White Out to clear the data.

Hopefully they have been dumpster diving for a while now and have a good collection of his typewriter ribbons to read.

C64 Data Cassettes

[Aokubidaikon]

In my mind I see the secretaries at the Austrian police station behind their typewriters, listening hard and trying to make sense of what exactly is being said on those strange tapes...

This is retarded

[Cobralisk]

Seriously, I have a Commodore 64 sitting right next to me hooked up to a dos box as a hard drive. Data is data. You just need a x1541 cable. There are lots of free software tools to facilitate this, and the d64 and t64 formats are well supported. You can even use audio tapes and a soundcard to transfer files. Once you have the data on the PC, there are multitudes of C64 emulators to run the software directly. I've been doing this since the late '90s. Google is your friend.

Re:This is retarded

[triso]

Seriously, I have a Commodore 64 sitting right next to me hooked up to a dos box as a hard drive. Data is data. You just need a x1541 cable. There are lots of free software tools to facilitate this, and the d64 and t64 formats are well supported. You can even use audio tapes and a soundcard to transfer files. Once you have the data on the PC, there are multitudes of C64 emulators to run the software directly. I've been doing this since the late '90s. Google is your friend.

Quick! Volunteer your services as a computer forensics expert and profit at $500.00 per hour.

Re:This is retarded

[Bri3D]

One issue. The methods that the police use to transfer data off of confiscated storage must be screened before they can be used in a manner which satisfies the court. Otherwise the defense could just question the manner in which the data was transferred, claim it was tampered with by the police, and the case is blown. I doubt googling emulators is an approved or accepted method.

Re:This is retarded

[Lisandro]

Still, anyone with minor electonic knowledge can build a RS232 adaptor for it with a few bucks. It's not like it's hidden science from the 1700s...

Re:This is retarded

[randomalias]

True.

But our friendly-neighbour nutter through himself under a train.

So, I'm not sure the eligability argument carried. The police (and by clear extension the Austrian people) want to know how and why. And more particularly what else has he been getting up to.

As long as they can get the data off, it doesn't matter how.

Mark.

what kind of question is that?

[User 956]

Could this be the latest in the criminal world's security strategy?

Anyone planning this far ahead is just going to use steganography and hidden, encrypted volumes with a false, destructive 'duress' password.

Re:what kind of question is that?

[PeterBrett]

A duress password's hardly going to work when the police are very careful only to work on bit-for-bit copies of the drives.

A real hardcore criminal will just use the TPM. In the way that it's supposed to be used.

Difficult but there are options

[snuf23]

Commodore 64 disks are a pain in the rear to read on anything else due to the nature of the 1541 disk drive. There are however a number of ways to transfer data off of Commodore computers. After all, how do you think all those .d64 image files used with emulators got made?
Once pulling the data off there are a number of great emulators such as Vice to run the software on. Or you could just buy one for less than $50 off of eBay.

Re:Difficult but there are options

[pizpot]

OK, the 1540 (rhino) and 1541 are 5 1/2 " disk drives. Is there also a hardrive option I didn't know about? Did the guy have one?

Re:Difficult but there are options

[snuf23]

True but they were a hell of a lot better than a tape drive. I remember waiting 20 minutes or so to load Temple of Apshai off tape.

if he was really serious..

[Anonymous Coward]

If he was really serious about losing data, he would have used Windows 95... Mu ha ha ha!

Simple answer

[lostngone]

We must ban all Commodores, to save the children of course. Think of the children!

Re:Simple answer

[Surt]

We must ban all Commodores, to save the children of course. Think of the children!

Thanks, that's exactly the thing that got us into this mess in the first place.

Attention perverts:
STOP Thinking of the children!

Re:Simple answer

[Elbowgeek]

Well hell, if people would just stop having children, we could have avoided this mess in the first place...

Catweasel interface

[amigabill]

What about the Catweasel product, which allows a PC disk drive to read numerous formats? All they need is a 5.25" drive hardware and this PCI card, and they should be good for getting the stuff into a modern PC. Or is it the 1581 3.5" disks? Use a standard PC 3.5" floppy drive with this card.

http://ami.ga/indexe.htm

Re:Catweasel interface

[amigabill]

ASnd realizing the Individual Computers site I linked to makes Catweasel sound like an Amiga product, the MK4 is a standard PCI card with Windows drivers available. I don't see that one there, but I own one so it must exist. The MK3 I believe also had a PCI standard interface.

Forget security by obscurity...

[MMC Monster]

It's now security by obsolescence!

Really, if the raid happened 20 years ago, everyone would be able to get the info off those floppy disks. Now they've got to find a C64 user group or specialty store (how many of them are there, even on the net?) to transfer the data and convert it to a usable format.

Re:Forget security by obscurity...

[loraksus]

There are still active CP/M user groups around. Why the hell? I honestly don't know, but there are. I recall selling a bunch of old equipment - 8086 boards, 10mb hard drives, etc, and the guy was overjoyed that his club got new stuff to play with. This was 2 years ago too... I guess the one man's junk saying is true.

Re:Forget security by obscurity...

[wideBlueSkies]

>>10mb hard drives, etc, and the guy was overjoyed that his club got new stuff to play with.

He was probably looking forward to undeleting the contents of the drives. How long do you figure it took him to do so?

Hope you scrubbed them first.

Re:Forget security by obscurity...

[monopole]

Actually there's a resurgence of C64 interest given the advent of DTV videogames based on an FPGA which implements the entire C64 on a chip. Radio Shack had a $20 Hummer road racing that could be used.

Re:Forget security by obscurity...

[Megane]

Except that an actual Commodore computer setup isn't the only (or even the best) way to read the floppy disks. The two other options are: 1) a Commodore floppy drive hooked up to a PC with the appropriate cable and software, or 2) a special disk controller card such as a Catweasel which reads the raw flux transition timing rather than trying to read actual data.

I tinkered around with writing code for a Catweasel to read Commodore floppy disks, and while the GCR format was a bit easier than Apple's (which was designed by Woz to be very efficient, by using a very tricky bit scrambling), if I had wanted to read file data (I was just trying to create D64 images) it would have been trickier than the Apple II because most files on the C64 use next-sector links in the last two bytes of the previous sector.

Re:Forget security by obscurity...

[LoadWB]

The next sector link is contained in the first two bytes of the sector, or the word contains a $00 and the length of the block in bytes (thus marking the last block.)

Re:Forget security by obscurity...

[pcardno]

It's actually not that hard - some time in 1998 I wrote a PC to C64 conversion program that allowed you to write content for a C64 diskmag in Word, run a short C++ program and it would create a C64 disk image that could be put into an emulator / copied directly onto a C64 disk.

As long as they can get a 5.25 inch drive it should be easy enough - C64 disk format is pretty straightforward..

Paul.

Re:Forget security by obscurity...

[mgcarley]

Security by obsolescence, eh?

Even the Big Apple Bank had a Swipe Machine and PIN entry device when the teller discovered "We don't seem to have your retina scan, your fingerprint or your colonic map on file."
(Script for this episode: http://www.imsdb.com/transcripts/Futurama-A-Fishfu l-Of-Dollars.html)

Ahhh... great memories of Commodore 64 goodness. We only got one 8 years after they came out - when I was 8. Second hand, of course, but still probably the crux of my life up to now and in the future.

I WAS going to be a Piano/Violin/Trumpet playing, Japanese and French speaking Martial-artist tour-guide chef, or something like that. I'd have to ask Mum if she remembers anything else.

PDP-10

[AFairlyNormalPerson]

PDP-10

WAS: Programmed Data Processor model-10
NOW: Pedophiles Dig Preteen models ~10

Seriously, WTF?

Re:PDP-10

[MichaelSmith]

Last time I checked the green guy didn't have a category for ASCII art.

abacus porn?

[lostngone]

If the C64 confused them wait tell they find people storing porn on an abacus or two.

Re:abacus porn?

[Meccanica]

'An' abacus? 'Or two'?? That would be very low-res.

Re:abacus porn?

[Faylone]

Well, that would depend on the size of the abacus, wouldn't it?

Only on slashdot...

[f97tosc]

does the story about a girl kept in a dungeon for eight years revolve around the kidnapper's computer. Tor

Re:Only on slashdot...

[sgml4kids]

does the story about a girl kept in a dungeon for eight years revolve around the kidnapper's computer. Tor

...and get tagged as belonging to the "it's-funny-laugh" category :-\

Re:Only on slashdot...

[Anonymous Coward]

Another visitor?! Stay awile. Stay FOREVER!!

Re:Only on slashdot...

[bar-agent]

Another visitor?! Stay awile. Stay FOREVER!!

Awesome!

I loved that game. :)

Re:Only on slashdot...

[3choTh1s]

Because... We ALL have a girl in our dungeons... What we don't have is a beautiful working antique of a computer. Bellissimo! ~3cho

missing the point

[dirtyhippie]

The article, and most of these comments, are missing the point. The point isn't that you can't get the data off the hard drive - the investigators aren't that stupid - it's that they can't get previoiusly deleted or overwritten files off the hard drive using their standard techniques, because there is no way to image both a drive and the magnetic clues that these folks use.

Re:missing the point

[gEvil (beta)]

Did they even make hard drives for the C64?

Re:missing the point

[WWWWolf]

Did they even make hard drives for the C64?

Yup. Commodore made some, apparently, and later, CMD did, too. Those are pretty famous. Also, nowadays, there's this little hack called IDE64 that lets you use any IDE/ATA device, though I believe the disadvantage is that CBM/CMD drives work more or less like floppy drives through ordinary KERNAL calls (ie, plug in the drive, say LOAD "*",x,1, and guess what happens), and IDE64 needs patches to the software.

Re:missing the point

[Coco Lopez]

http://cmdrkey.com/cbm/prodinfo/cmdhd.html

Used to be made by a company called Creative Micro Designs (the makers of JiffyDOS).

Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Anonymous Coward]

The back of the Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface. Any schmuck with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering can hook the Commodore 64's serial interface into the serial interface of any modern desktop.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Dun Malg]

The back of the Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface. Any schmuck with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering can hook the Commodore 64's serial interface into the serial interface of any modern desktop.

No, actually it doesn't have an RS-232 interface. It has something called a User Port, using a male card-edge connector, which can transmit and receive serial data, but it only does so at TTL levels. But yeah, any schmuck with a soldering iron and a breadboard can slap together a true RS-232 interface using a 25 cent MAX232 chip and a few caps.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[God of Lemmings]

Yes, but if that schmuck had a BSEE he/she wouldn't, except in the rarest of circumstances, be a cop. The investigators would have to use their brains and find someone who can do the work.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[LWATCDR]

It wouldn't take a BSEE to do it most hobbyists could whip one up in a few hours. However it is not really needed. You can buy a device that will allow you to interface a 1541 or 1581 to an PC.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Noginbump]

No soldering required. RS-232 -> user port plug-in devices were readily available for the C=64. Commodore even sold one, though I can't remember model number. There's probably one on eBay right now...

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Frogbert]

Actually a 555 timer is all that is required to create a basic serial interface that will do 4800bps. I have one I built at home but I have since lost the plans.

That isn't really required though. A X1541 Cable is very easy to make and will read all his disks no problem.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[psoplayer]

Now see? All they had to do was post the question on slashdot as how to connect a C64 to modern machines and they could have had the files off in a jiffy. But NO... they just had to try to figure it out on their own.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[compro01]

Yes, but if that schmuck had a BSEE he/she wouldn't, except in the rarest of circumstances, be a cop. The investigators would have to use their brains and find someone who can do the work.

you'd be amazed how many Electronics and Computer technicians the RCMP up here is collecting. they've taken practically the entire graduating class of each (usually 20-30 people per course) for 2 years running at the school I'm at (SIAST).

but i don't have much idea what they're doing at the other 3 campuses, but I'd imagine similar things are happening, so that would be at least 150 techs they've snatched up, if not more.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[complete loony]

I good friend of mine (who currently lives next to me) wrote the first version of c64net which can be used to communicate directly between a c64 and a pc. One of the tests he performed showed that you can transfer data from a PC to the c64 at about 32KBps.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[iocat]

Dude, they're in EUROPE. Someone just needs to head for the University, find the demo party, pry Dieter away from his Amiga and be like "oh qiuck, we need the data from these floppies... yes, if you want to make a mod so the data all prints out along a sin-wave line while the SID chip kicks out the collected works of David Hasselhof, that's fine... oh my, you can make the text appear on shiny spheres? So much the better!"

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[syousef]

I think a pre-made one would hold up better in court.

I can just see the defence lawyer now...."...isn't it true that you used unreliable home made equipment to get the data from the defendant's computer?...Your honour I'd like to tender exhibit A"...

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[ralmin]

To transfer the entire memory of the Commodore in 2 seconds, that's quite impressive. It may be possible, but I highly doubt it. What interface would have that sort of bandwidth? Surely not the serial printer/disk ports or even the user port (cartridge interface). If you wanted to do something with the data other than just plop it into the RAM, you'd be limited by the write speed of the disk, much lower than 32 KBps.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Anonymous Coward]

Priklopil threw himself under a train minutes after the girl escaped; there's not going to be any court case.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[pipatron]

You modded this as "Funny", but there are more truths in this text than in any of the other posts. Seriously, any C64 hacker (and there are atleast hundreds of them spread around europe that use the Commodore 64 on a ~daily basis) would know how to transfer all the bits from a C64 floppy to any other format. He would also know what tools this guy used, and how to disassemble them to see how the data is stored (if not common knowledge already). For example, there is the the XzentriX Treffen 2006, http://www.xzentrix.de/ this friday in germany. Just go there, announce a new fast-compo (hack this guys files), and be done with it.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[ncc74656]

The back of the Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface. Any schmuck with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering can hook the Commodore 64's serial interface into the serial interface of any modern desktop.

No, actually it doesn't have an RS-232 interface. It has something called a User Port, using a male card-edge connector, which can transmit and receive serial data, but it only does so at TTL levels. But yeah, any schmuck with a soldering iron and a breadboard can slap together a true RS-232 interface using a 25 cent MAX232 chip and a few caps.

Without a 6551 ACIA or something similar, you're going to have to do all of the signal timing in software. I suppose it'd be doable, but you're going to be limited to slower speeds. You'd probably be lucky to get 2400 bps. With a 6551, you could easily do 19.2 kbps on a 1-MHz machine; with an accelerator, you could go even faster.

I don't know what kind of hardware was commonly used for serial ports on Commodores, but the Super Serial Card (and the many clones thereof) was the most popular interface for the Apple II. It used a 6551.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Martin G. 1984]

That probably is 32KBps as in 32 KiloBits per second.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[mwvdlee]

I think it's called "Centronix" port, and it's essentially RS-232 signals with a different plug.

Besides; I have this neat little C64-diskdrive to serial cable which I used to transfer my own C64 disks to PC for emulation, and it worked like a charm. If the Austrians ask nicely, I might mail it to them and solve their forensics problems. Alternative they could built one themselves using the no-brainer wiring scheme readily available on the internet. Though it'll probably cost them upto 5 euro to make; might not fit their forensics dept. budget.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[complete loony]

He wired up a cable that would talk directly to the PC parallel port, transferring a whole byte at a time. The transfer loop on the c64 was about 8 cycles per byte @1MHz (from memory, this was about a decade ago) to read the byte, increment the address pointer, and toggle the appropriate wire on the cable, so yes 32KBps was quite possible. The code he wrote impersonated the floppy controller, and would redirect and read / write requests over the cable to the PC which would read / write from a disk image. VERY fast, and very easy to swap disks.

Once while I was at his house, I witnessed him idling in a #c64 irc channel on his c64.... Though he was just using the c64 as a text console to his freebsd box, it was impressive.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Stormwatch]

That probably is 32KBps as in 32 KiloBits per second.

Then it's Kbps, not KBps.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Martin G. 1984]

That probably is 32KBps as in 32 KiloBits per second.

You're right, of course.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Skrynesaver]

Perhaps not a BSEE, but who do you think are tasking the courses such as BSc(Hons) Forensic Computing, offeredd by my local college? And where are they aiming to go on graduation?
Cops in uniform, on the beat may not be overly educated, but don't assume that no brains exist within the system

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[RivieraKid]

FWIW Centronics is a parallel interface used mainly for printers.

Nullmodem.com Article

Wikipedia Article

Centronix

Though I agree, it's a no-brainer to retreive data from C64 format media.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[multipartmixed]

The 6551 would be a good choice. Commodore used it in the B128 and SuperPET 9000 (MMF 9000 in Europe). Additionally, the software UART in the Vic-20, C64, C128, Plus4 and C16 all mimicked the 6551.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[Psychofreak]

I did something like this in the one quarter of electronics I took freshman year in high school! (the other quarters were mechanical drawing (drafting), woodshop, and small engine repair)
OK, it was a pre-worked lab project and silly easy.
IT WAS STILL EASY! I have done similar stuff as needed in college and at home. Just find out what you have at both ends and build a black box to make them match. Chances are that someone else already did the work and published it on the web. I'll admit that I have just followed those directions and have been successful on all projects, though not always on the first try.
Phil

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[XO]

And consider that the machine, unmodified, could actually drive a 9600bps modem, attached to the User port, and with mods, there are people who have used 28.8k modems.. that there are also multi-gigabyte hard drives, and several-megabyte memory expansions ..

  Proper hardware at the user port, could probably achieve speeds well over 32kbps, remember that the Commodore built Ram Expansion Units connected there, and provided virtually instant access.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[GreyPoopon]

Priklopil threw himself under a train minutes after the girl escaped; there's not going to be any court case.

There are looking for an accomplice. If they find one, there will be a court case.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[LWATCDR]

It is true. The C64 demo scene is alive and well. Now if the cops and the courts would trust one of them is different question.
What gets me is how none of the "experts" can handle anything that isn't a PC. I wounder if the guy had been running Linux, BSD, Minix, SkyOS, an Amiga, or Atari ST if they would be just as lost.
Here is a shop that sells cables that will let you read C64 disks on a PC http://sta.c64.org/x1541shop.html
I suggest they also google PETASCII if they want to break the encryption.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[shaitand]

Am I the only one sitting here and wondering if anyone on this forum ever used a C64? They need a 5 1/4 floppy drive and a C64 emulator. The C64 stores all the data and programs on floppies, if the system has even been powered off they aren't going to get anything from the machine itself.

Personally I suspect the investigators just have a bunch of MCSE's who run prepackaged forensic tools and have never seen a C64 and don't know how one works.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[LWATCDR]

Nope I had one of the first C64s. I got mine in November of 82. I think that what people mean when they say get data off the C-64 is get data off a 1541, 1571, or 1581 floppy. Of course the guy could be a real hard core user and have a hard drive for this C64. And yes they did make them! You can still buy kits for them. If so then it may be a little bit more complex of an issue.
With a Max232 chip you can recreate the user-port to serial adapter that Commodore and a few others used to cell. With that you could use a terminal program and a serial cable to send the data to a PC. Of course they would have to convert the petscii to Ascii if they data is even in a text file.
They could also use a cable to hook up a 1541 to a PC.
Or they could use a C128 and a 1571 or a 1581 and convert the data files to MS-DOS disks.
I do think that you are correct in that these "experts" don't have a lot of knowledge. I wonder how far up the chain you have to go before you find a real expert. Good heavens if a C64 throws them for a loop what would a Timex Sinclair or a TI99/4a do?

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[jesterzog]

What gets me is how none of the "experts" can handle anything that isn't a PC. I wounder if the guy had been running Linux, BSD, Minix, SkyOS, an Amiga, or Atari ST if they would be just as lost.

I don't think this is a fair comment to make without actually knowing that they're having real problems with it. It's true that sometimes there aren't enough qualified people to fill certain postions given available funding, but so far there's no evidence of that here. Most police forensics experts I know of are pretty good at what they do, and they know when it's time to call in someone else if they can't handle it.

A C64 undoubtedly is different from what they'll normally handle today. This means they'll probably have to go out and buy some new equipment (exactly as you've suggested), they'll probaably need to wait some days for it to arrive if it's not on hand, and they might even need to hire a consultant who knows C64's really well, just to make sure they don't screw it up.

To me it seems that transferring the data will be the easy part. The difficult bit is likely to be analysing the legacy storage devices for forensic information. (Deleted file information, magnetic traces on the disk, and whatever else is useful.) Not to mention the differences in how C64's work from modern PC's -- regular applications on the latter tend to be much less space conscious, so data gets overwritten less often. Chances are there are modern tools for use on a modern 3.5" IDE HDD to analyse the surface for all the things that a regular head wouldn't pick up, but try doing the same thing with a 170 kilobyte 5.25" disk.

It shouldn't be a surprise that they're claiming it might "complicate their efforts". If you worked for the police as a computer forensics expert, I'm sure that this would complicate your efforts, too. It doesn't mean you'd mess it up, and it doesn't mean they will either.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[LWATCDR]

You may be right. It has more to do with computer "experts" in general than this case. I am sure that this will be a different task for them. Finding deleted data on a 1541 isn't all that hard if the data hasn't been overwritten. If it has well then forget about it. You may figure out how to pull data out of the magnet traces but I would be that it has been over written completely.
I have run in to so many "experts" and "consultants" that think that running Ad-Aware on a PC makes them an expert.
I hope that if they don't know enough to solve this issue on there own that they are professional enough to seek help.
The sign of true intelligence is often this statement, "I don't know but I can find out"

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[operagost]

Then it should have been Kbps.

Re:Commodore 64 has an RS-232 interface.

[jesterzog]

The sign of true intelligence is often this statement, "I don't know but I can find out"

Yep, no argument here. I agree that there are definitely quite a few people out there who don't like to admit it publicly if they don't know what they're doing.

unsuspicious?

[ex-geek]

A geek, who didn't use the internet? There is your suspicion!

Wolfgang Prikopil, world's last pedophile, who didn't have an account on myspace.

Here's how to do it :)

[mbpark]

Here's the best way to do it:

1. Use Star Commander or the equivalent program (ftp://ftp.zimmers.net/pub/cbm/archiving/c64/emuti l.prg) to make your .d64 files. Additionally, if they're feeling up to the challenge, mnib (http://markus.brenner.de/mnib/index.html).
2. Use PDS Hash Toolkit or some other approved toolkit to hash the disk images you've created.

They can also use 64hdd (www.64hdd.com), set it as drive #10, make directories on the partition they copy the files to, and then individually hash each file using PDS Hash Toolkit. You'll have to hash the 64hdd binaries as well.

If he's a really hardcore user of the C= series, I think the price of that SuperCPU on eBay just went up by a few hundred euro.

At the end, I think they did

[porkchop_d_clown]

But they weren't made by C=.

From TFA

[Per Wigren]

Police have been digging pits and using long probes to poke around the property,

Re:From TFA

[Tom_M_Riddle]

"Poke" ?? *shaking head in disgust.* You should be smacked. load "*",8,1. That terrible 1541 drive that slipped out of alignment during a strong breeze. Sprite graphics. My first music compositions coming not from staved paper, but from screens of data statements, read during a loop. Setting the attack, sustain, decay, and release per note, via nesting. It's all coming back to me. My word, Time waits for no one. This year's US college freshman age cohort will have been _born_ *long after that.* Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o.

Re:From TFA

[awehttam]

Pitty about the Windowless basement, otherwise they could have just peeked inside.

Gah.

Please read this before moderating parent as troll

[Garabito]

About Jon Katz, former Slashdot editor. Taken from here:

"There was a large controversy when Katz posted an article about an e-mail he believed to be from an Afghani teenager named "Junis", writing to him via the newly-restored Internet. Katz never disclosed the original e-mail, but it was an evident hoax and probably a parody designed to fool him. According to Katz, Junis wrote his e-mail from "his ancient Commodore computer", which he had 'dug up' and was now using to download movies, pornography, and MP3s thanks to the recent liberation of Afghanistan."

Top Ten Reasons Why Austrian Police...

[shoma-san]

Can't Transfer the Files:

10.There's no USB port
9. Austrian govenment mandate that all computers must be able to play music from "The Sound of Music".
8. Investigators were at Oktoberfest the day they taught pre Windows XP forensics.
7. Unable to install popular folk dancing software on Commodore 64.
6. Jokes about the situation being hopeless but not serious in Austria have become true.
5. Police still worried about riots after UPC Arena name change.
4. There's no USB port
3. The floppy drive is WAY to big
2. The modem baud rate is slower than pooh ...and the number one reason why Austrian Police Can't Transfer the Files:

1. Can't copy and paste without a mouse

Re:Top Ten Reasons Why Austrian Police...

[dysfunct]

8. Investigators were at Oktoberfest the day they taught pre Windows XP forensics.

Against common American belief, Bavaria is not part of Austria. That's Germany you're thinking of. I want to make it clear that our police force does *not* require special events to get drunk.

Re:Top Ten Reasons Why Austrian Police...

[Doogman]

I remember having a genuine Commodore mouse for my old C64. Used it for GEOS.

How 'bout this:

1. LOAD "EVIDENCE"

      PRESS PLAY ON TAPE

wtf?

Re:Top Ten Reasons Why Austrian Police...

[ByteofK]

There's no border between Austria and the Oktoberfest. It's not exactly a lifetime pilgrimage to hit the Hacker Pschorr tent for the average Kärntner or wherever the heck this guy was from. That, and there's a Bierfest in every town at this time of year. So the point was valid. Which is more than can be said for the Sound of Music reference. The film was never dubbed into German, so it is almost unknown in the German speaking world, including the country it was filmed in. Also its strong Nazi theme would make about 1/4 of the movie censored under current German law. Not sure if the Austrians have the same law, but without the Germans it's like trying to sell a Region 1 DVD English version of a movie banned in the US.

Re:Top Ten Reasons Why Austrian Police...

[Anonymous Coward]

LOST: One sense of humour. I have temporarily replaced it with an inflated sense of self importance, but this is beginning to have adverse effects on my slashdot posting. Reward offered for its return.

Re:Top Ten Reasons Why Austrian Police...

[WWWWolf]

9. Austrian govenment mandate that all computers must be able to play music from "The Sound of Music".

I believe MikroBITTI published in 1980s some listing that played Edelweiss, so I think this one has been covered for quite a while...

1. Can't copy and paste without a mouse

Ever heard of GEOS? =)

Re:Top Ten Reasons Why Austrian Police...

[heroofhyr]

The film was never dubbed into German, so it is almost unknown in the German speaking world, including the country it was filmed in. Not true. I had the misfortune to see Sound of Music on ORF a few months ago. It wasn't dubbed for a long time (I think until the 80s or 90s), but it was nonetheless. Which is unfortunate. Speaking of ORF, the girl he kidnapped is giving a TV-interview with them today. Maybe one of the questions the moderators will ask will be about the Commodore. "Natascha, I know you've been through a lot; and this is all very traumatic for you, I'm sure...but I just have to know something that's been on my mind for ages...in all that time you spent in captivity below the floorboards did you ever figure out how to get past the Ice Palace in Ghosts n Goblins? With all due respect I feel like I've been trapped in a dungeon for eight years myself."

reason to use it in one word:

[GeekyMike]

Zaxxon

Space Taxi!

[porkchop_d_clown]

I'd forgotten all about that game!

Oh, man. The flashbacks!

Re:Space Taxi!

[rikkitikki]

Hey Taxi! Pad 1 please.

Arial???

[srh2o]

Of course they'd lose information. Haven't you seen how bad Arial screws up ASCII porn... Uh Nevermind

The real source of confusion: the wumpus

[FerretFrottage]

Clearly the investigators where through off course when the wumpus briefly presented itself on the screen. Investigators from M.U.L.E. were called in to assist.

Re:The real source of confusion: the wumpus

[MichaelSmith]

the wumpus briefly presented itself on the screen

I thought you never see the wumpus. You smell it then you either move away or get eaten.

Re:Tom Clancy was right?

[Nutria]

Has computing progressed to the point that we can have "security through obsolescence"? I guess we need to start making footnotes for these ancient manuscripts. ;)

There's a whole bunch of NASA data which is going to be lost forever when the last labratory that has the requisite ancient h/w gets closed down later this year.

Brilliant!

[Spock the Baptist]

Use a Commode-a-door 64...

If it's tampered with, it flushes the data.

STB

No Internet?

[tmh - The Mad Hacker]

I couldn't find find anywhere in the article that said he didn't use the internet, and I know that some people *do* access the Internet on their old Commodores.

A quick search immediately reveals 2 browsers for the C-64:
- Hyperlink ( http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/ )
- Contiki ( http://www.sics.se/~adam/contiki/apps/webbrowser.h tml ) ...and there are probably more.

Re:No Internet?

[ex-geek]

I couldn't find find anywhere in the article that said he didn't use the internet, and I know that some people *do* access the Internet on their old Commodores.

He didn't work at an office either. So therefore, I think, it is safe to assume that he didn't use it. At least not on a regular basis.

ohhhh so THAT is how she escaped

[Desolator144]

The mystery is solved! She escaped while he was distracted by waiting for the thing to process something :-P Bet it still boots faster than the modern PC though.

Unlikely

[CptPicard]

No, we won't see pervs starting to use C-64s as their main machines. KP looks lousy downsampled to those resolutions and bit depths, and access is slow and inconvenient on the multitude of cassettes or floppies that would be required. :-)

Specifically

[Sycraft-fu]

Their tool is Encase. Really, that's the one LE loves in the US at any rate. I don't know why. It does handle other OSes to a limited degree, but is rather Windows centric.

Simple now, but with DRM

[monopole]

Imagine a few years down the road when a terrorist/pedophile uses the trusted computing features of his newish computer to confound the police as to the location of his victims and the **AA sues them under the DMCA to protect the criminal since IP rights trump national security and human life:
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/22/05 16243

Re:I find it more amusing..

[eebra82]

The article is about the difficulties of processing data from a C64 - which is funny. It is not focusing directly on his death.

If it was "Man killed in train accident - Laugh, it's funny", then it would be morbid.

C64 hardware

[Neo-Rio-101]

There are a myriad of other issues with this too. For one, the Commodore 64 uses PETSCII and not standard ASCII. To complicate matters more, he may have even used GEOS to store his data on floppy disks, and without the right conversaion tools, coverting that to plain text, muchless PC readable media, is going to be tricky without the right C64 hardware. If he had all that CMD hardware, or stored all his information on a hard disk or CMD formatted floppy disk, it will be harder again.

Re:C64 hardware

[Timberwolf0122]

Did C64s have harddisks? A mate had one (I bought british and stuck with my far superior ZX48K+ with flash drive woooo!) and although he did have the disk drive the size of a toaster I never saw any sign of him owning of lusting after a hard drive.

Re:C64 hardware

[pla]

For one, the Commodore 64 uses PETSCII and not standard ASCII.

You can map PETSCII to Unicode without too much trouble.



he may have even used GEOS to store his data on floppy disks...
or stored all his information on a hard disk or CMD formatted floppy disk

You make the assumption that Austrian police can't obtain similar hardware. This doesn't involve some bizarre one-off homebrew computer; the C-64 counts as the single most popular pre-PC computer, with probably tens of thousands still in use and a still-active user group in most major cities.

Re:C64 hardware

[Bender Unit 22]

I think I read about you could get a 5 megabyte drive for it. I remember talking to my friends about it in school. I can't remember the price but it was more that we could dig up, even if we bought it together.

Re:C64 hardware

[RomulusNR]

without the right conversaion tools, coverting that to plain text, muchless PC readable media, is going to be tricky without the right C64 hardware.

Too bad they don't have a C64 with the same hardware and software like that used by the perpetrator.

Oh, wait...!

That's assuming

[AlgoRhythm]

that he actually used the thing with any sort of regularity, and/or in any way related to the kidnapping. The article doesn't exactly go in to detail of how they thought a Commodore 64 would have been used, whether it was outfitted for net access or anything else at all. It may have been nothing more than an old typewriter to the guy, maybe a paperweight. And it's 'discovery' 2 weeks after she escaped suggests it may have been 'hidden' in a closet or something.

What are the odds that this guy didn't use it at all since the 80's, it has nothing to do with the crime and is merely an intriguing story for a slow news day, in a climate obsessed with 'net based child predators?

I'm not saying they shouldn't check it out, but I wouldn't expect to find anything.

Commodore's run Linux

[lullabud]

...Why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it?... ...you can literally get systems for free (or next to nothing) that are capable of running various modern operating systems, including various versions of Windows, Mac OS and Mac OS X, myriad Linux distributions...

Why would you go out of your way to get another computer when a Commodore 64 is perfectly capable of running Linux?

Re:Commodore's run Linux

[Bitsy Boffin]

LUnix, not Linux.

Re:Commodore's run Linux

[fm2503]

Wow, clearly not Linux, but it uses BogoMIPS to calibrate the delay loop.

0.37 BogoMIPS

Is this a record?

Easy Solution

[ToxicBanjo]

I used to code the shit out of the C64. I pretty much learned how to write software by assembler and basic code examples typed from magazines. The ones I bought had a CRC system (usually a purely basic program that you could save to disk and run when entering data). The program would output the hex codes and a checksum. Anyone who can recall those days knows what I'm talking about, if you don't then Wikipedia.

So why can't they send this dudes data through that type of system, print it, and then retype it into a PC port? The checksum takes care of the data integrity so no data loss.

To the Cops: Keep It Simple Stupid? Why go straight to emulators? Use his machine against him!

great idea...

[LinuxRulz]

I'll store personal documents on my old mac plus. (the one which I haven't still transformed into a macquarium) All was on floppy disk back then. AFAIK those floppies, once formatted for the macintosh Superdrive could not be used/read/reformatted anymore by any pc. That could be a great way to encrypt data. Try to find a superdrive nowday!

Timex Sinclair 1000

[noidentity]

The terrorists use the Timex Sinclair 1000 computer with that awful memory expansion pack that crashes the computer and wipes out all your data at the slightest touch. No way anyone will get at your data!

Just wait until they find the guy -

[Geminii]

- who's been using stone tablets. That unco-operative bastard.

Commodore Security for Dummys

[AcidTag]

10 REM hide your stuff from the fuzz 20 POKE 53280,0 : POKE 53281,0

Re:Commodore Security for Dummys

[Bluesman]

That's awesome, but how did you type the lowercase letters?

Re:Commodore Security for Dummys

[AcidTag]

With the Magic Commodore Key C= :)

Obvious

[cloudwilliam]

Have the police tried LOAD"*",8,1?

Forensically accurate copies should be cake.

[Myself]

This is simple. Get a Catweasel floppy controller, and use the bundled tools to make images of the disks. You don't even need any of the original Commodore hardware for this, any PC 5.25" drive will do.

If they're too cheap to do that, an X1541 cable and a copy of Star Commander will work fine, plugged between the Commodore drive and a PC. This shouldn't be forensically valid, because the 1541 is a smart peripheral and could concievably be running a modified ROM.

Re:Forensically accurate copies should be cake.

[makomk]

This shouldn't be forensically valid, because the 1541 is a smart peripheral and could concievably be running a modified ROM.

So what? All modern HDDs are pretty smart devices too (though modifying the ROM - if they even have one - is somewhat harder), and that doesn't stop investigators from powering them up and sending them commands, does it?

Re:Tag: Lamers

[oz_paulb]

Seriously: Do a block image copy of every floppy disk.

How would you suggest they go about doing that 'block image copy'? Should they use the 1541 drive? Do they understand enough about the drive to make it do the copy?

I don't believe a standard PC drive will read Commodore disks. The Commodore used "GCR" encoding, where PC drives have always used "FM/MFM". These encodings are incompatible with each other.

Also, I know that some Commodore drives would adjust the spindle speed to get more bits packed into outer tracks - I don't know if the 1541 drive did this, though.

I assume there must be a machine that'll do a true bit-by-bit copy of a disk (and, presumably one that would copy to a medium compatible with a PC).

Disclaimer: I haven't looked at PC disk controllers in years - maybe recent controllers have changed in a way that they can understand "GCR" (but I don't see why the design would have changed to support this, as it's not needed on a PC).

- Paulb

This sounds familiar.

[Yath]

Could this be the latest in the criminal world's security strategy? Can we expect to see Spectrums, Archimedes, and Atari STs turning up in police investigations soon?

John C. Dvorak? Is that you?

OT c64 emulators

[Sark666]

Way OT, but just wanted to mention that it bugs me that there isn't a decent c64 emu to play some classics in linux. Ya there's vice and frodo, but man just to get either of those buggers to display the games in full screen is next to impossible. I started to use linux about 5 years ago and the state of c64 emus was as bad then as it is now. Sure we probably will never have the latest games in linux, but I always thought we should have good emus. Some are good, but a few are sub par to their windows equivilents. The next frodo is supposed to use sdl for video but 1.5 has never surfaced. Trying to get a descent video mode with X11 is painful. And why with xmame is there a seperate binary for x11, sdl, and opengl? Why can't they all be one package and select what video mode works best. Ok, I'll stop my emu rant. I just love em and they a few aren't up to snuff on linux.

Atari 800 is better!

[Anonymous Coward]

I still use my Atari 800 and it's way better than a commie. There are more colors and it's much faster at 1.79 mhz vs Commodore's paltry 1 mhz.

What's even better, *my* kidnapped slave girl loves it and she hasn't run away and left me.

even more bad news

[PeelBoy]

it looks like all of the video evidence was recorded on slow-scan TV tapes.

38911 BASIC BYTES FREE

[ElephanTS]

This story is faintly ridiculous. Like an earlier poster said there's a strand of an "only a weirdo/terrorist/kiddy fiddler would use a non-Windows machine" to it.

C64 uses a nearly standard ASCII and there wouldn't be problems reading the text as ASCII to a modern machine. You may get into trouble if he's using the playing card symbols or something but all the alpha-numerics are the same. If the data was stored on cassette there are many free PC progs that can read the audio tape and convert it to a BASIC or data file. I've done this easily before in the past for the C64 and VIC20. If the data was on floppy then the same applies although the hardware hook-up may be slightly tricky but possible.

If none of that works the info could always be viewed on his system or perhaps printed. I can't see where the problem really is.

10 REM ***MUST KIDNAP YOUNG GIRL***
20 REM ***AND FIND A CALENDAR PROG FOR C64***

Great! Now I'm a suspected criminal ...

[criquet]

because I like to buy old hardware for nostalgia. Why the fuck do criminals have to screw things for everyone?

Dunno about complicating efforts.

[jd]

There is a third-party driver for Linux that'll allow you to connect to CBM64 peripherals such as hard drives and tape decks. You then use VICE to emulate the CBM64 on Linux and access the data normally. What's the big deal?

Ah! I know. Cops don't do VICE...! :)

No, it doesn't mean that

[davmoo]

What it means is that police departments will have to hire people who know what the fuck they're doing, instead of wannabes that just started yesterday and only learned "modern" equipment.

1945 ENIAC

[Tablizer]

All the engineers are dead dead dead.

I can see where this is going...

[oohshiny]

Computer software or hardware that is not compatible with common forensic tools will automatically be deemed to be evidence of child pornography or terrorist activity.

Re:Answer :)

[Skuld-Chan]

But why would someone go out of their way to continue to use it? I can understand practical and pragmatic answers like "It's still functional for me" or "I just like it better and I haven't had any problems". But are there other reasons?

If you wanted the "ultimate" in computer security you might use a C64. For example - if you were a terrorist and the cia/fbi picked up your C64 how many of them do you think could use the file system on a C64 (classic example - how do you rename or copy a file using Basic and a 1541)? I barely remember, and I used one for nearly 10 years. How many people could even load a program on the C64 to read said data? (and yes I say that in quotes because its a big joke sure...)

Modern disk drives won't read 5.25 commodore DOS disks.

And if you don't buy that - the C64/C128 is still a rather functional computer. I mean you can dial bbs's and shell based internet access points, download files, type reports using word processors, store information in databases, and play games. In fact in the early 90's I used to dial into a Sun mini computer and browse the net with Gopher and later on Lynx on my C128 at 9600 baud using desterm.

(and for the fbi/cia reading this post - to rename a file its "OPEN 15,8,15,"C0:new name=existing name":CLOSE 15" - I assume its probably easier on a 1571).

Yes! Yes! Yes!

[Digz]

Finally, the Amiga is back baby!!! :)

you make me feel bad for him

[r00t]

He had to kidnap the girl because a Commodore 64 does a really crappy job with porn.
A decade ago, somebody should have given him a 386SX-16 with a Trident 1 MB SVGA card.

battery life?

[way2trivial]

try a trs-80 mdl 100 or 102 (I own three, two work)

do you know how many DAYS I can run my 102 for note taking? about 1.5..

and if it does die in the field, you know what I do?

pop in another 4 pack of AA batteries..

try that with you 'semi modern system' in the field

Re:battery life?

[dougmc]

try a trs-80 mdl 100

I have one of those! Got it at Goodwill back in 2001 or so for $9.95.

Of course, here's the funny story. I got the computer, and figured `ok, what do I do with it?' ... so I tried to remember BASIC, and put in this program as soon as I got it working at the office -- 10 I = I + 1
20 PRINT "HELLO THERE # ", I ;
30 GOTO 10
(sorry if I got this wrong. This is the last time I did any BASIC, and it was years before that that I'd last done any.)

In any event, it's still running today. It's up to (let me check) 509176235. It's doing roughly 4.2 iterations/second, with most of the cpu obviously going to scrolling the display. Of course, if I do the math, that only works out to about four years, so I'm not sure what the discrepancy is.

In any event, it's lasted several office moves, and now it's in my garage, with a wal-wart transformer connected and some AA's in the battery slot. The batteries will run it for a remarkably long time, and I just replace them every year or so.

I've been tempted to pull it out and play with it a bit, but I'm reluctant to lose all my uptime ...

Re:battery life?

[JohnsonWax]

You realize that journalists will still pay serious money for one of those.

It's about the only computer you can wander off-grid to Pakistan, still get power (AAs are universal) and still type 100WPM.

Re:battery life?

[anagama]

I just have to say -- that's cool! Funny and cool.

Re:battery life?

[dougmc]

You realize that journalists will still pay serious money for one of those.

I can see that. My original intention was to use it as a ham radio packet station, but I just never got around to it, and packet really isn't very popular anymore anyways. In the VHF bands there's a lot of APRS on 144.390 MHz, but that's not so interesting. Doing normal packet, there's just very few people to talk to. Perhaps on the HF bands, but there it's mostly PSK31 and I'm not aware of any TNCs for that -- most people just use a PC with a sound card to do that, but the TRS-80 isn't appropriate for that.

Still, I like my Model 100. If a journalist offers me enough money to buy a modern laptop for it, maybe I'll sell it, but since I don't see this happening, I'll probably hang onto it.

I'm surprised that people haven't used modern technology to make something with a similar size and power consumption, but with better specifications. Journalists, students ... anybody who has to take notes could find it to be useful.

Re:battery life?

[yandros]

I'm surprised that people haven't used modern technology to make something with a similar size and power consumption, but with better specifications. Journalists, students ... anybody who has to take notes could find it to be useful.

They have, and they're relatively popular in that segment, but most of the market you mention can afford the burdens (size, weight, power) of a modern laptop.

AlphaSmart's Neo and Dana

I do enough mobile writing that I'm tempted, now and then, but the size is an obstacle for me -- I'm ok with either my modern laptop or my variety of (paper) notebooks.

One comment...

[ovapositor]

Dumb Asses. They just need to go to the goodwill and get a complete.. tricked out vintage system of their own. Data loss my eye.

Easy Fix

[TheHawke]

1. Download an emulator. CCS64 does the trick nicely.

2. Buy/Build a parallel cable that will interface a 1541 drive to a PC. http://sta.c64.org/xa1541.html

3. Start copying or get a dot matrix printer and get cracking.

Aint that difficult, only need to think it through. I got GEOS to run in CCS64 easy peasy, now only if I could get 1581 emulation to run properly, i'd be happy.

Re:I'll explain this one

[KillerBob]

Ironically... those WWII-era bikes don't get nearly the fuel economy of a modern bike. :-)

But yes. It's a case of thinking like, "It works, why should I buy a new one?"

But... but... but....

[dbc]

I still think of the C64 as the new-fangled computer that came out after I already *had* 2 personal computers. C64 was clearly 3rd generation coolness when it came out. I mean after all, it came with 64K of memory *already* *installed*, and you didn't even have to build your own case.

If you really want to confangle the Aussie coppers, run your crime empire with an MITS S100 system and an ASR33.

Easy to read the disks

[sid6581]

You can hook the 1541 up directly to the PC if you have a cable. I made such a cable for the Amiga and even wrote a program for it to read whole disks block by block off the 1541. (I actually reverse engineered the disk routines in the C64 ROM to do it.) There are several programs to do this on the PC, and the cable schematics should be easily available.

Yes. Super hot.

[Weaselmancer]

Er.. if you think she's "super-hot", you need to get out more.

If you don't, then you need to spend some time actually talking to those bar chicks.

Re:Tag: Lamers

[ewhac]

How would you suggest they go about doing that 'block image copy'? Should they use the 1541 drive?

No, they should use a 1541 drive. You can snag them off eBay, or find a local enthusiast who still has one.

Also, I know that some Commodore drives would adjust the spindle speed to get more bits packed into outer tracks - I don't know if the 1541 drive did this, though.

The spindle speed was constant; the bitrate was variable. Outer tracks contained more sectors than inner tracks. (This is one reason why I thought the variable-speed spindle in the original Mac floppy drives was completely stupid -- yet another opportunity for mechanical failure.)

Schwab

Video Game Violence

[Kamiza Ikioi]

Does that make the entire Generation X that wierd? I wonder if they found a Nintendo next to the his C64. Play SMB, and get a girl-in-dungeon fetish.

This just in, tower sniper runs from tower into police custudy after hearing a dog bark. "Evil Dog laughs at me! Noooo...!" Police find copy of Duck Hunt in his backpack.

Right...

[Toba82]

I doubt that anyone can get data off something subjected to government standard wipes, nevermind heated above the curie temperature. Are you sure you're not talking out your ass?

Re:Right...

[Magada]

The .gov standard is there so the .gov can deal with its prodigal sons as need arises. Do you know that, back in the day, the .gov was advising that simply "zeroing out" a file on a magnetic disk/tape was good enough deletion? Why do you think that physical destruction of media is _required_ nowadays for classified data? Because the .gov standard wipe patterns are enough?

Re:I'll explain this one

[johansalk]

Ah but guess what they get for that fuel inefficiency; marvelous bodies. I've sometimes marveled in amazement at the bodies of those bike-riding Dutch girls; solid from the waist down.

Hard drive? What hard drive?

[xixax]

Normally they pop the media (hard drive, floppy disks, CDs) into a known system and image the media using dd or similar. The trouble is that the C= 64 usually uses a 1541 floppy drive (serial bus) with single sided 170 Kb 5.25" disk, and I'm guessing that some of the geometry may also cause headaches http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_1541. In order to read the disks into your forensic system you would need to build:
  - a floppy drive capable of reading said disks to use with your certified/accepted imaging tool
  - a 1541 drive interface to work with your certified/accepted imaging tool

That or get an accepted forensic imaging system that works on the C= 64.

It's not a show stopper, but they can't just gloss over the details in court; you have to be able to show that your imaging did not alter the data. They'll probably then use an emulator to access any stored files using the correct applcations rather than attempting to interpret PetASCII.

Re:Hard drive? What hard drive?

[mwvdlee]

There's the old cable (which I still have), which can connect the drive directly to PC and, apparently, it was possible to hack certain native PC floppy drives to read C64 disks properly. If they just approach the active C64 community, somebody will surely will be able to hand the details they need to do it.

Re:Yes. Super hot.

[Mr2001]

"Super-hot" is a comment on her physical appearance, not her intelligence or geek cred (as made obvious by the fact that "super-smart" was listed separately). She isn't all that hot. You can find better looking women in any mall, coffee shop, department store, or bar in America (not to mention the media). You wouldn't call them smart just because they're hot, would you? So why call this one hot just because she's smart?

except ...

[hany]

Except that those same media companies may in the future with high probability consider providing say Britney Spears' "tracks" (sorry, if I spelled her name wrong) for re-purchase as a "not interesting from operating profit point of view" thus consumers will be unable to repurchase thus they lose their beloved tracks. Or become criminals.

Feel free to replace "Britney Spears" with any other name from current "popular music" (or even past "popular music").

Re:except ...

[Stormwatch]

So in the future DRM will prevent people from listening to Britney Spears? This is Slashdot, damnit, you're not supposed to defend DRM here!

Re:except ...

[hany]

:)

As the saying goes: everything has two sides - one good, one bad.

Re:except ...

[shaitand]

I am seriously considering changing my position on the DRM thing now. No britney... could there be such bliss in life?

Well, we can probably keep Britney, just so long as we don't have to hear her anymore.

Re:except ...

[multisync]

As the post you are replying to stated, this is exactly what the corporate media cartels want. They don't want you listening to intellectual property you purchased years ago; they want you to buy the intellectual property they are selling today. Except in cases where they might repackage and rebrand intellectual property from days gone by, and sell it as new to those who don't know better, or don't care.

Re:except ...

[Hal_Porter]

Britney has quite a following on /.

http://britneyspears.ac/physics/basics/basics.htm

Clues? How about relevance?

[Dark_Gravity]

The kidnapper is dead. It's a little late to be looking for clues!

Just as long as you don't....

[Chrisq]

Just as long as you don't have a kidnapped kid in the cellar

Re:Yes. Super hot.

[houseofzeus]

You wouldn't call them smart just because they're hot, would you?

If it was going to get you laid.... :-p

Re: MP3 Followup

[Lonewolf666]

I don't think the format will fall into obsolescence anytime soon. It is too well established and convenient.
The small advantage that Ogg (for instance) is said to have in quality vs. bandwidth has so far not lead to a massive move to Ogg. And that is a freely available format you don't have to pay license fees for.
Neither have the various proprietary formats like WMA managed to displace MP3, despite being pushed by rather influential companies ;-)

Well here's a brilliant idea...

[Elbowgeek]

Follow me on this. Ok. First, fire up the machine. Then bring up the data. Now here's the hard part: Read the data off the screen!

You know, you can even take snapshots of the screen. No, really.

God, I'm smart.

Re:I'll explain this one

[radja]

in dutch cities, riding a bike is often faster than going by car. it's also cheaper and if you get drunk you can walk home with your bike.

Even worse for the police

[DrXym]

This is the Commodore 64 in question

Oh so very relevant...

[Phil John]

...the police suspect that he may have had an accomplice. Apparently the normal M.O. for this type of criminal relies on having another person in the mix (lookout during original kidnap, looking after victim if other needs to go anywhere for an extended period etc.).

Marc Dutroux (the Belgian Paedophile) had several accomplices - one of whom was directly responsible for Julie and Melissa's death by not feeding them whilst Dutroux was in prison on another charge.

Why conclude that he ONLY used C64 ?

[yet another fancy ni]

It's very possible the C64 is just a distraction from a laptop he dumped somewhere on the way to the suicide spot.

WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a blues collector, allow me to explain it to you:

• In days gone by, I transferred vinyl to tape for my every day listening.
  
• Any original cassette tapes were copied for my walkman and later for my car.
  
• When CD's first arrived I copied these to tape and later to CDR.
  
• When DRM arrived I stopped buying music.
  

There's nothing that can sweeten the DRM deal, look at it this way:

• Functional Technology
  
  • I own a gramophone that plays shellac discs produced in the early 20th century.
    
  • I own open reel 2 track tape machines in varying formats, one is almost 40 years old.
    
  • I own several turntables that should play vinyl into the next decade.
    
  
  
  
• Obsolete Technology
  
  • I own a DAT machine it still functions but I transferred everything to CD long ago.
    
  • I own a phillips DCC machine (long dead)
    
  • I own a high end minidisc deck
    
  
  

Lump anything DRM'd in with rest of the digital stuff, any fool can see that DRM is not going to work!

Don't you mean...

[MichaelSmith]

If you really want to confangle the Aussie coppers

Austrian coppers?

Re:Don't you mean...

[ferrgle]

I every time I see Austrian a part of my brain also shouts out Australian.
Why is that?

Re:Clues? How about relevance?

[MichaelSmith]

The kidnapper is dead. It's a little late to be looking for clues!

Its one of those "without a trace" scenarios. Maybe the dead kidnapper has girls buried in basements all over Austria. You have to crack the C64 file system before they starve to death.

Not Just DRM

[RAMMS EIN]

This is a problem not just with DRM, but with any proprietary format. Basically, whenever the details of how to get the information out of some file or protocol are not publically known, you are dependent on the goodwill of the people who do know to get at your information. While the use of encryption (as in DRM) can certainly make this situation much worse (even if you do know how to get at the information, it might take a lot of computational power to decrypt it), I find it even more scary to consider what _kinds_ of information this applies to: entertainment is one thing, but information that is critical to a company's operation or the health of patients is quite another. Yet, there have been cases in which companies were locked out of their own data, and hospitals being made to pay enormous fees to retain access to patient records.

How to read deleted files on a C64

[MrHali]

It's been over 20 years but actually, I remember my c64 days still. When files are deleted, only the first byte would be removed from Track 18 where the directory contents are stored. The subsequent bytes would translate to the physical location by Track and Sector, followed by the filename, and the first several byte of each disk sector would give you the location of the following sector in that file. Following this, you can manually find contents of deleted files and so forth. There was a bunch of disk utilities that allowed you to inspect raw disk data. Qwikcopy comes to mind, but it's been decades, not years so I'm not entirely sure. There's also Disk Nibbler utilities that would allow you to clone disks bit by bit. I even remember the transfer rate of one side of a 5 1/4 disk over a 300bps pocket modem would be 6 hours. Painful. SYS64738!

If it ain't broke,

[houghi]

don't fix it.

That's why I use the Commodore VIC-20

[HeavenlyWhistler]

For privacy of my data, I use the Commodore VIC-20.

The wonder computer of the 1980's! For under $300*!

*in 1981 dollars

Lacking originality

[alexo]

> Priklopil threw himself under a train minutes after the girl escaped; there's not going to be any court case.

Bloody copycat...

Computer Forensics - clear as mud

[gsobol]

Well, I can sum up the whole article like this:
Forensic investigators = not stupid
Article author/editor = selling a story / lack of facts
Court system = flaky justice

Being a computer forensic investigator, what I can tell you is that the problem is not with extracting individual files (being current, deleted, overwritten), or even hashing the contents or drive images themselves. Although this does present a certain technical challenge, this can be overcome. Any forensic investigator will tell you that, what he/she finds during his/hers investigation rarely comes under question or scrutiny. You just can not deny the fact that this "stuff" was found on the suspects media. What almost always comes under scrutiny is the technique used in obtaining the evidence. Where the police do have the tools and techniques that have been court tested for the relatively modern machines and OSes, there is no such tool or a battle tested procedure for capturing and processing data from the Commodore 64. That's what the challenge is all about. It's all about how do you get your evidence, and prevent the defence from shooting it down on a technicality that your approach was not forensically sound, because you have not used the court "approved" forensic tools and techniques. -- a side note: there are no court approved forensic tools, at least not in the USA. There are forensic tools that have gone through court scrutiny and been found to be acceptable, but only in conjunction with a proper forensic sound procedure. The tool is only a tool, like a hammer, it can be used to drive a nail into a wall, or crack someone's skull. Define a proper and sound use :) -- It's easy for technical people to understand the realities and limitations of the technology. It's easy to understand that when you copy the contents of the files from one OS to another the contents do not usually change. But for an average person on the jury, if one computer is old and the other computer is new, and they don't speak the same language, well that means that someone had to translate it, right? And if someone translated it, could they have made a mistake? Of course they could! Of course they DID! Again, the hard evidence - the files, the pictures, the notes, etc.. - do not come under scrutiny. It's the techniques, the procedure, the competence of the investigators that get's questioned, and thanks to our "well educated" and "intelligent" jury, sometimes the guilty go free.

Re:Computer Forensics - clear as mud

[JavaLord]

It's the techniques, the procedure, the competence of the investigators that get's questioned, and thanks to our "well educated" and "intelligent" jury, sometimes the guilty go free.

It doesn't help that the Defense has a say in who sits on the jury. I would imagine they would attempt to throw out well informed jurors in such a case.

Re:Computer Forensics - clear as mud

[macintyred]

I know Austria and the U.S. are different, but do they seriously put dead guys on trial there?

kBps

[bodrell]

Actually, if you're going to be case-sensitive about it, the "k" should be lowercase. "Kilo" is an SI prefix, after all. Uppercase "K" is for Kelvin, not kilo.

CatWeasel

[airship]

Here you go:

(1) Buy a CatWeasel (ISA version) programmable floppy interface card on eBay. (Unfortunately, they're no longer being manufactured.)
(2) Get an old 5.25" floppy drive. (If he used a 1581 drive, hook up an old 3.5" floppy instead.)
(3) Hook both up in your Windows PC.
(4) Read data off of old C64 disks until the cows come home.

The beauty of this solution is that you will also be able to read data off of ANY old 5.25" OR 3.5" format floppy disks you come across in future kidnappers' homes.

You're welcome.

Re:CatWeasel

[amigabill]

http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_ store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/accelerators/catwe aselmkiv.html&cart_id=1403328_50992

do we need to read his files ..

[rs232]

Do we need to read his files to figure out what exactly was going on in his brain and did he get the inspiration from watching old movies. I would like a psychiatric opinion please.

The Collector (1965)

"Tie Me Up! Tie Me Down!" Átame! (1990)

Boxing Helena (1993)

Um why?

[Tweekster]

Seriously, the guy is dead, why are they investigating the kidnapping now. She is safe, will need lots of therapy for years. but the investigation is a complete waste of time for everyone involved, HE IS DEAD.

Re:Amiga

[wpope1]

Don't forget the classic Amiga! That was a machine ahead of its time, too far ahead I expect as it never got wide reception. I still have my Amiga as well as my Commodore 64, TRS-80 and CoCo (TRS-80 Color Computer). I learned to program on these machines as back then there was very little computer programming courses in schools. This was pre IBM PC. Those were the "good ole days for sure!" IMHO, we'll never see this kind of fun again!

I'm not sure about the C64, but...

[SanityInAnarchy]

There are people who still buy the HP 200LX handhelds. They run DOS on a 3 mhz processor, but because it's DOS, it runs faster than any of the "modern" Windows Mobile crap.

A service that gets info out of "obsolete" systems

[tgeller]

Can't get your mom's recipes (or your company's financials) off that 8" floppy from the TRS-80 II? Call Sam Ismail at Vintage Tech! He's a real pro, runs the Vintage Computer Festival, and is a nice guy besides.

Home Builts

[nurb432]

Take this one step more, and build your own from scratch. Let the cops figure *that* one out.

If you dont like soldering, use a FPGA with a custom written cpu + hard code protection. "Sorry officer, i cant remember the machine lanaguge on that machine due to all the stress of this investigation".

Answer:

[nurb432]

One word : DRM

All these older machines are exempt from this crap, and you are still free. ( ok, so its really 3 words, but you get the idea )

Possible to convert this...

[Ehwaz003]

Easily even. I know an editor in my home country (Belgium) who has an author called Pieter Aspe that wrote his first issues on a C64. The editor had one machine that could convert his text automatically, so if an editor can do it with minor efforts, surely a bunch of IT personnel will be able to do this easily.
No security thread in this at all.

I would sure like to see how popular auctions on retro home computers will chance after this news.

and get out of my comic book store!

[Thud457]

unless he was using a datasette drive for storage.

C64 RS-232 user port

[ACMENEWSLLC]

http://www.ntrautanen.fi/computers/hardware/misc/6 4_rs232c24.htm
http://www.ntrautanen.fi/computers/hardware/misc/6 4_rs232c96.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64#I.2FO_po rts_and_power_supply

Mine had a RS-232C port, afaik.

I'd linked my C128 up to a CoCo2 and we had me remote controlling the CoCo2 via this method. It worked ok locally, but pair it up via modem and over phone lines and it was painfully slow.

I've transfered files back and forth between many different OSes included Atari, Radio Shack, Unix, Mainframes, and other oddball's.

Great computer, but it can't run WoW.

this isn't proper PROLOG syntax:

[Thud457]

A "girl" is like " your mom ", but as a child.

Re:Amiga

[drinkypoo]

Want another amiga? I have a 1200 with 3.0 roms collecting dust :P Anyway while you'd have to be an idiot to fail to get data off a C64 floppy (you can build an interface to hook the 1451 up to a PC, and the drive itself is a computer anyway, about as powerful as the C64 itself IIRC) but you'd have to be fucking dead to fail to get it off the Amiga, since they have networking available. I'd probably use PLIP if my Amiga didn't have a network interface, and connect to a PC that way.

Fear for retrocomputing

[RomulusNR]

Could this be the latest in the criminal world's security strategy? Can we expect to see Spectrums, Archimedes, and Atari STs turning up in police investigations soon?"

No, what this means is that soon, anyone who owns or purchases an old piece of computing will either have to submit to a background check or be put on a DHS watchlist. Because there is no reason for a normal person to own an old piece of technology other than for nefarious purposes.

Yeah and why do people use analog synthesizers?

[Kodack]

Or collect antiques? And why do people pay top dollar for wine that is not brand new. Why do people spend thousands of dollars trying to replicate the sound of 70's moog synthesizers. I mean they are so analog right? This is the year 2006 people, analog is out. We need digital synthesizers that use modern wave table sampling and run Linux. They make the best music right? I mean what good is an analog filter and a bunch of patch cables and no MIDI. It can't make a piano sound like a piano right?

And the same with antiques. People spending tens of thousands of dollars on old used furniture when they can go down to the LayZboy store and get something brand new.

And classic automobiles? Don't even get me started on classic automobiles. What is so classic about something that is so old it doesn't even use disc brakes, lacks airbags, and just looks old. I mean why sink money into something so old when you can get a nice Honda Civic that is going to get you around in modern style right? Who needs a Tbucket when you can get a Civic?

All mockery aside, the obvious answer to your question is that some people "like" and or "appreciate" things that are obscure, different, or old.

Not everybody wants to compose their music on an Imac. Some people choose to do it on an Atari or on a gameboy. And they make a living off it.

We have had over 30 years to improve on synthesizers but the best sounds are still made by the old patch cord Analogs like the Moogs'.

I'm not a commodore fan boy but the C64 is a capable synthesizer and music production platform. It's cheap, and it's been reverse engineered to the point that you can actually buy or make modules that will give it network access.

Having confines on something forces you to be more creative.

I mean, this guy kept some girl prisoner for 8 years, he was F'd in the head. But your arguing that classic equipment is pointless. And that's like saying that paintings are useless because of photography and photography is useless because of film, and film is useless because of television, and television is useless because of PC's with DVD players, etc etc.

Why hasn't the design of the guitar changed in the last few hundred years? Why has the electric guitar pickup not changed in 40 years or more? Because new doesn't always mean better. And some people like the sounds and feelings of old things.

Library fees

[LunaticTippy]

I used to feel good about library late fees, thinking they supported new media. In denver this isn't the case. The fees go into the general fund, and although fees have been up the library budget has been cut. I don't know why this is the case.

Re:Amiga

[drinkypoo]

Nope, I'm in the US. You can have the fucker if I can find it (heh heh) and you pay me for shipping. I have the unit, the power supply, and a pretty nice trackball, and that's it. It has 2M chip and either a 20 or 80MB intenral disk, I forget. The bottom door is missing :)

You got it wrong...

[DrYak]

No, no. DRM will help record company to re-re-remix the same shit several time using newer blonde bimbo on the video clip, and each time selling it as "[name of bimbo-of-the-day]'s newest master piece", to the new generation of teens.

And because of this lack of format shift, their parents won't be able to show the proof that they did listen to the exact same shit with a different name written on it.

Not much belly-ups...

[DrYak]

The problem is that in real life, most company that fail don't belly-up,, but are bought by some more successful concurrent.
The company doesn't cease to exist, but the new owner gradually loose interest to support the old product (i.e.: is actively trying to earn more cash by pushing the inherited customers to pay for a newer product).

And these company will be very happy to sue you using the DCMA because you illegaly reverse-engeneered an anti-copy method of one of their product when the company was kindly proposing you a migration path to their new product (which costs a kidney).

Old is not Bad

[arantius]

And new is not necessarily good.

I currently own a portable computer. It's not a PDA. It's not a laptop. It's certainly not a cell phone. It's a "palmtop computer" made by Hewlett Packard, the 200LX. It hasn't been made for seven years.

By modern standards, it's slow. It's an 8MHz 80186 processor. It's got a grayscale screen. It has 2MB of built in memory (and a few MB of ROM). It's the best such device I've ever owned, or seen. It runs on double-a batteries, and it's dead easy to keep extras on hand, or buy some in a pinch. Which I barely have to do, it runs for many hours on a pair of rechargables (longer on alkalines, but why waste the money and the environment?). It's got a surprising wealth of built-in applications. Much better, it runs MS-DOS, and is fully PC compatible, so it can run most any DOS program, and there are still plenty good ones right now.

These days, a majority of people use their computers for nothing more than writing some email, browsing the web, and doing some word processing. Basic tasks. There's no reason that an old machine can't handle it.

Re:Yes. Super hot.

[Mr2001]

"You wouldn't call them smart just because they're hot, would you?"
Yes I would. You need to rethink this. It will come to you.

To her face, if you're the kind of guy who'll lie to get laid, sure. But to your friends when she wasn't around? You'd get mocked. Just like I'm mocking the guy who called this chick hot.

Re:Awful

[Duhavid]

You can have my C64 when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

C64 Heston