Slashdot Mirror
Massives As Your Third Home
sleepwellmyfriend writes "What is a third place? The first place is your home, the second place is work. Howard Schultz, founder of Starbucks introduced third places as somewhere besides home or work where people can socialize and feel comfortable. Think Cheers. Massive multiplayer online games are third places as defined by their characteristics: neutral ground, leveler (no not that kind), conversation, accessibility, regulars, low profile, playful mood, and "home away from home". Online games also contain social capital, which like financial capital, can be acquired and spent, but for social gains instead of financial gains. In a social relationship sense, bridging provides breadth (diverse information and resources) while bonding provides depth (comfort and advice). In online games, players come from a diverse background so they are usually bridging social capital but bonding can occur for long time players."
When I first moved, I spent a lot of time in game talking to my old friends and generally just hanging out in game. I spent a lot of time in the house on Corellia. You might argue that it was detrimental to me meeting new people in my new surroundings and naturally adjusting but, honestly, I would have spent the time reading books if I hadn't had an SWG account. I guess that's why it was like pulling teeth when the CU hit and all my friends stopped playing. Oh well, at least I had enough time to meet new people while still having fun with old friends.
My work here is dung.
Im sure I remember the PS2 being advertised as 'The Third Place', way back when it first came out, with exatly the same reasoning behind the nomenclature.....
My first, second and third place is the pub, nuff said.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Its been said before, but i'll say it again...replace any instance of "Massives" or MMORPGs etc in any of these stories with "The Internet" and it still fits the same. Hell, even the C64's Quantum-Link service pretty much fit every description there, except perhaps the fact that social networking isnt as gain related as in a game.
aeb
Ice Cream has no bones.
I'm not sure what the point of this is, as it seems to be just stating the obvious. Something designed for people to interact serves as a social interaction point? Now where is that "duh" tag ...
So if Second Life is your Third Home, does that work out to 2/3s of a homelife?
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Are you sure? I always let it slip that "I'm going home" when I'm headed to work.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein
eldavojohn (OT)
Its strange, even in the 2D world of subspace:continuum (http://getcontinuum.com). It seems just a "real" as the real world. Even though you play from the 3rd person. In most zones no leveling up is done at all. It is just skill that separates the players which makes it feel more like real life than many other games I think. It rewards ability not time spend leveling up.
Its the interaction with people that make the game. Alot of people say the game is like IRC but with a spaceship game.
I guess my point is you dont "need" a 3d enviroment or leveling up to make something feel real.
FTFA:
The Mood is Playful: The general mood of a third place is playful and witty. Players in online games crack jokes during heated battles, perform goofy actions with their avatars, and mock each others' appearances. Rarely are players overly serious about game matters.
Yeah -- that's really been my experience with online multiplayer games -- rarely are players overly serious about game matters. Seems to me the long-time players that the article claims are the real core of the community tend to be some of the *most* serious players i've ever encountered.
I spend more than enough time staring at a computer screen while I'm working - it's the last place I want to be during the few precious hours a week that are truly "mine".
They did, and I always found that pretty confusing. For quite some time I thought they wanted to claim third place in the console race - behind the Xbox and the Cube. Weirdos.
Over here in Europe, most people aren't familiar with the concept of "the third place" and probably didn't get the slogan.
So you have your 'home' time. Then you have your work time (for real world people, this is 40+ hours a week). And then you want to toss in a '3rd place' time? How much time do you have left?
I mean, sure its great when you are 16 and your 'home time' will consist of playing sports with some kids down the street or watching tv (or video games in this case), your 'work time' is at max 15-20 hours a week, then you have all the time in the world to play an mmo. No need to worry about cleaning or making dinner. Mom has that covered.
But if you arent 16, you work 40+ hours a week, have to come home and make dinner (or go run to the store first to buy it),clean, relax for a bit, toss in a significant other or a child or two, and your mmo time is nearing zero.
We have enough busy things in this world to toss in a 'Third world'.
I'm pretty sure that if you spend enough time to earn in-game rewards, you're not gaining "socially"... but if you are, online gaming sure has come a long way since I last played!
stuff |
1. Face-to-face contact
2. Exercise
I think the internet in general has such a high impact on and penetration into those "1st & 2nd places" (at least, for the sort of people likely to be reading this post) that the distinctions are becoming a lot more blurred. Hell, working-from-home or at least taking-it-home-with-you is becoming so commonplace in our industry that I'm surprised people are even discussing it, and then there's the fact that some people love their work so much that it becomes as much "play" or "home" or even relaxed social contact.
On another note: something I find I do altogether too often in social situations (pubs, parties etc) is put on a "mask", a persona that makes me less vulnerable. In MMORPGs the implicit existence of a mask often means that people can be more "themselves" than they would otherwise. Maybe that's why it's such a good place for some people to relax and interact. Could be that it's doing wonders for the social skills of some people...
Meta will eat itself
Are you high? Ask your parents about soda shops, bowling alleys, drive-ins, etc. Then, go read Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam - it's a great look at what he calls the collapse of the American community, because of a lack of these "third places". Good read.
aren't you in your home (for most people) when you're in an mmo? is it possible for the third to be a kind of subset of the first?
The source of the theory of "third places" is Roy Oldenberg's book The Great Good Place: Cafes, Coffee Shops, Bookstores, Bars, Hair Salons, and Other Hangouts at the Heart of a Community, which has been around for quite some time. Sherry Turkle, in her Life on the Screen, also references Oldenberg. Credit where credit is due. Here is a nice summary of Oldenberg's work.
Eh? i have heard of thrid places before but never this howard schultz guy. i think the concept of third places it attributed to ray oldenburg. though the practice has been around a lot longer. video game related link
always mosh clockwise
pubs?
is anywhere you hang. yeah!
How can it be yout third home if there's no Guinness there?
What will it take people to stop using the meaningless term "massive" multiplayer online game? Online games aren't by definition massive. "Graphical MUD" is a far more appropriate term.
Is a masquerade? A 3rd home in the context of TFA is then in fact, a virtual activity that removes people from reality as we know it to be. So wouldn't this concept be another facet of escapism? Surely the MMOer's will be rife with malcontent if this is how their activity is viewed, casual or otherwise.
I try to be as open minded as possible (see sig). I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere Minnesota and have severely lacked the funds to ever travel anywhere -- though I like to think that the books I've read from libraries have made up for this as much as possible. I used to listen to MPR all the time and now that's one of the biggest things I miss but I can stream it at home. We had six in Minnesota with tons of local shows. There is one out here.
I moved to Virginia for work -- there was none for developers in Minnesota at the time. One of the reasons I have had a pretty hard time meeting new people is because it seems a lot of people out here are intollerant of new ideas. There's been more than a few people here that have found out I'm from Minnesota and said, "Oh, so you're from a blue state..." Not everyone is like that out here but the wind sure blows a different way.
My work here is dung.
is my third home...
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
There is nothing in WoW that even closely relates to Cheers. It is more like a microcosm of real life, right down to the fact that you have materialism is the dominating force in keeping people's noses to the grindstone. Regarding the author's specific points, I'd say the neutral ground argument is a bit weak, because players *are* obligated to play if they want to stop being called a "n00b" or other memes that spread like wildfire (I believe that 'nub' is all the rage as of late.) The leveler argument is totally incorrect: imagine if someone mentioned they were gay on public chat in WoW. I doubt they would be warmly received. In WoW, conversation is decidedly NOT the main activity, but something that grows out of the fact that WoW requires enormous amounts of time.
(Much of my disappointment with WoW is actually that of Internet. The anonymous nature makes it to easy to be unaccountable for what you say. Absent of real-world status, people feel like they need to invent their own even more inane class systems and base them off of incredibly superficial things, such as post count or how low your UID is, all because their little minds need a hierarchy.)
I don't feel at home at work. I feel at work at work.
Is it just me or are they trying to put way to much thought into games? I'm a WoW addict but its not my "third place". It's just a game.
Freedom is a state of mind. A mind is a state of being. Stay the fuck out of my mind and my being. - Corporate Avenger
Ah, Slashdot. Where suggesting that living a normal life, as humans have lived for tens of thousands of years, is trolling.
Although the order is wrong. It needs to be family, exercise, and then girlfriend.
Family first, to get used to the concept of talking to other people.
Then exercise, because no girl is going to date a 200lb lard-ass.
Finally, once exercise and family have been resolved, then a girlfriend becomes possible.
My third place is Home Depot because my first place needs work and my second place doesn't pay me enough to convince someone else to make my first place their second place.
Who's on first.
What's on second.
and
I don't know.... THIRD BASE!
Only a few years ago the MMORPG crowd was looked on as very eccentric, outside the social norm etc. With the advent of stricter laws regarding personal behavior,( DUI laws in particular) instead of going to the neighborhood bar more people are heading online to meet up with friends. The MMORPG is now becoming more and more acceptable and visible in society. Consider that the average MMO will cost the user around $15.00/month and provides a recreational/relaxation avenue that is comparitively risk free and far less expensive, it is no wonder that the number of MMO players is expansive. So for the cost of a good double scotch at a nice bar you can have a virtual world to recreate in, or just hang out in for a month. Stop on the way home from work and grab a bottle - you will be money ahead - not having to deal with violating laws or endangering others, and hang out with like mided people. I do beleive this movement will continue to grow.
The third space used to be called 'the commons' or 'public space' and its disappearance in modern democratic societies is perhaps the greatest tragedy of our times. The idea that Starbucks claims it 'invented' third space is ironically an indicator of how far we've fallen from having sufficient free common public spaces.
Third spaces have long been cited as being the very foundation of democratic society. The mall or Starbucks however are Not public space - they are private - and this can be easily seen if one try's to stage a public demonstration in one of them.
The first time I heard the term third space in reference to coffee houses, beauty salons, et. al. was in a little book called 'The Very Thing Your Heart Craves', published by a small press in the 70's(?). The author again notes the significant role these spaces play in free speech and in the social/community life of society.
This is inevitably going to come off as flamebait to some, but I think it has to be said...
If people but as much effort into constructive pursuits as they put into these games they couldn't help but be very successful. And I don't think there's a real middle ground where you can truly do well and continue to maintain what is essentially a second career within these games.
This is coming from someone who's played a few MMOs... I never invested even a fraction of the time some have put into these games but I still think it was too much time wasted. I certainly wont be making the mistake again.
Someone else made a nice comment, and to the point, Starbucks is by no stretch of any imagination inventor of anything other than a brand name. A third place has been part of our lives for quite some time. Think outside sports, recreational activities (not family vacations), anything that you do routinely away from home or work. For me, it was life at the firedepartment, or talking in IRC, or rugby, or skating, or any number of things I did away from home or work. Social status (real) was achieved through personal growth. I learn, or I help, and therefor my 'status' improves.
... some people get away with writing the most god awful shite, and get it passed off as revolutionary! ... /rant
I swear
harryk
think before you write, it'll save me moderator points.
Both are from the Pacific NW. But "A Third Place" is the mantra of Mr Ron Shea not Howard Schultz. He is the owner developer of Crossroads mall, Lake Forest Mall, and importantly Third Place Books and he is the current owner of the Honey Bear Bakery (which lead seattle in the slice of cake and a coffee movement), which no longer exists in its original location.
Third Place describes the environment that he has tried to create at the Malls and the Third Place Books in the old PCC in Seattle. They have large central courts that are utilized by the general puplic, gaming communities (he likes chess it would appear), community theater and concerts. Along with a variety of food.
His idea is creating the "Third Place" that you go to hang out. After work and home.
He has been moderately successful, but not as univerally accepted as you may think. I think he is right that there exists the concept of third places, but alot of them exist spontaneously, (like Cheers) and only up to a size where everyone knows your name. And they aren't as successful larger than that. But the concept is successful enough, and they are very pleasent places to visit.
All I can think of this analogy is of the alcoholic who always goes to the bar (Norm being a prime example). All he does all day is drink, if he works, he drinks after work, he's addicted and he knows nothing else. Unless it happens in that bar, Norm really doesn't know much about it.
Unfortunately MMORPGs are no different we have the "hermit" who all he does is play the game til he dies, he's stuck in his "home", he constantly thinks about it, to be away from it too long is painful.
Just because we try to make it sound comfortable, doesn't mean it's a perfect good. MMORPGs are as harmful to our society as alcohol. This doesn't mean we should ban them both or stop having them, but we shouldn't just allow people to indulge til they kill themselves. At least with alcohol in a bar you'd have a bartender who's should be willing to cut you off.
between having a face-to-face conversation with other, live human beings in a street corner cafe about philosophy or international politics, versus watching an animated orc on a computer screen with a word balloon over his head that says "55 NE rogue ganking outside BB".
Don't get me wrong -- I play MMORPGs myself and they can be a lot of fun in moderation. But they're a damned poor substitute for the kind of "third places" we used to have, and that they still do in many other societies.
Not only that, but Schultz didn't really found Starbucks. He joined 11 years after the company was started, then started his own company based on his experience with espresso in Milan. Afterward, he created Il Giornale, and eventually acquired Starbucks, and changed his own company's name... It's all right here:
http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/CPA-140%20CompanNews Flash: Godzilla hates infrastructure.
I was thinking, of course your massive isn't your third home. It's your one true home, innit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Staines_Massiv
Both are from the Pacific Northwest. But "Third Place" is the mantra not of Howard Schultz, but of Ron Sher. He is the owner of Crossroads Shopping Center, two Third Place Books stores, and three Honey Bear Bakery stores (which led Seattle in the slice of cake and a coffee movement).
"Third Place" -- the concept described by Ray Oldenburg in his book, The Great Good Place -- is embodied in these destinations that Sher has created. They have large central courts that are utilized by the general public, gaming communities (ie. oversized chess sets exist at all of Sher's "Third Places"), community theater, and for author events and concerts. In addition to the Honey Bear Bakery, some of the locations (including Third Place Books in Lake Forest Park, WA) have entire food courts contiguous with the central courts.
The rest of the parent is subjective, and will not be repeated. See parent.
The West Staines Massive is my third place personally... :p
> Then exercise, because no girl is going to date a 200lb lard-ass.
Actually, just found out via the grapevine (i.e. my daughter) my 260-lb. D&D-playing, "Here, read V for Vendetta graphic novel" "Don't call it Japanimation as they consider that rude" son just successfully interacted with, with condom, his fairly good-looking blonde girlfriend, who is considerably under 200lb. Although she instigated it AND brought the condom.
So just go find a good-looking fatty chaser who wants to do you, easy!
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Oh, wait, I forgot! He's socially very talkative and outgoing.
Hmmm. Maybe that has more to do with it than being chubby or out of shape.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Wow... You must never have lifted a weight in your life. There are a lot of guys my height (5'11") who weigh upwards of 200 lbs and have body fat well under 10%.
I'm 205, personally, and sorry, I'm not fat. you need to revise your numbers.
Didn't read the article, but after reading the summary, I did get a horrific picture in my head of seeing Starbucks everywhere inside all my favorite MMOs.
Quest giver: "Hello! We're awfully busy today. I was wondering if you could deliver this cappuccino machine to my friend over in the Merchant's District. Your reward will be 500 XP and the recipe for Pumpkin Spice lattes."
Height/Weight Chart, Male, 5'11': 154-166lbs.
So you're, by definition, overweight.
Check the numbers. You'd have to be about 7ft tall to hit 200lbs on the height/weight chart.
Is in my sig line.
Heroscape, it's like legos combined with anachronistic wargames.
Ali G's West Staines Massive.
A cautionary tale.
while bonding provides depth (comfort and advice).
Bonding and depth != comfort and advice. Trust me on this one.
long term players may experience bonding
To experience bonding, please visit your nearest pub, attract female attention, intoxicate, take home, bond.
Finally, a serious word: if you're travelling the world, stuck somewhere between A and B, don't play video games all the time just to tell your friends that you miss them. They're probably losers just like you - forget about them. Explore. Look around you. Live.
Life is too precious to spend inside a win32 executable (that's what a game waters down to).
P.S I'm a gamer; do it at work.
Finally! I have a clue about what that PS2 ad was all about.
The sociological concept of a place separate from home and work was originated by Ray Oldburg, in The Great Good Place .
-- God is silent. Now if we can only get Man to shut up.
> The first place is your home, the second place is work.
In which one of them do you spend more of your waking hours?
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
It's interesting that nobody has yet mentioned their church/mosque/synagogue/temple as the 3rd place "where people can socialize and feel comfortable". For most people, that is their answer to this question.
Interesting, but not suprising.
Just keep this in mind when/if you think slashdot's view of the world is in any way representative of the world in general.
Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0
So you're, by definition, overweight.
I know the numbers. They're retarded. They do not account for anyone with anything beyond a minimum of muscle. I have wide shoulders and a high proportion of muscle.
So if I'm overweight by definition, the definition is, by any reasonable definition, moronic. Your definition would put most of the defensive backs in the NFL at between 30 and 60 lbs overweight. Have you ever seen one of them? They're shredded.