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Atom Smasher May Create "Black Saturns"
David Shiga writes "If we ever make black holes on Earth, they might be much stranger objects than the star-swallowing monsters known to exist in space. According to a new theory, any black hole that pops out of the Large Hadron Collider under construction in Switzerland might be surrounded by a black ring — forming a microscopic 'black Saturn'. This could happen if extra dimensions exist, as string theory suggests, and if they are large enough." An evocative excerpt from the article: "...there is an outside chance that in a few years in a tunnel near Geneva, physicists will make a black hole far smaller than a proton and circled by a squashed four-dimensional black doughnut."
mmmmmmmmmmmm, higher dimensional.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
black saturn
Are you actually suggesting that string theory might actually predict something that the standard model doesn't, and what it predicts might actually be measurable?! That's crazy talk! Next you'll be suggesting that string theory is disprovable and therefore actually science. I'll believe it when it happens.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I can't read the fine article because CyberSitter blocks it. However, I did remember an article a while back that changed the way black holes were perceived to operate.
.pdf showing his original hand-drawn representation along with some of the mathematical principles behind the whole "there is no true event horizon" hypothesis. Where was that? Ah. There we go.
Hm. Maybe google will help me to remember what it was. Oh yes. There it is. Darn. CyberSitter blocks loading that page. I know, user prefs, threshold 5. There we go. Now I can at least see the summary. Click, read, yep, that's the one I remember. Now, Samir Mathur, I remember a very nice
Someone please tell me how the current article lines up with these from years past. Please try to do so without profanity so that I can click my comment and read the reply without CyberSitter dumping the page.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
Wait, so Homer was right about the donut shaped universe? Damn Hawking, always taking credit for other people's ideas!
The ones that occur without warning, last only a short time, and emit enough energy to wipe out entire solar systems?
What if every time we see one of those gamma-ray bursts, we're watching a civilization gain the necessary technology to do something like this?
Things that make you go "Hmm."
Then suddenly global warming won't seem like such a big deal?
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
haha i'm so gld i looked at the address of that link before i clicked it. that's nasty fucker.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
You just watch safely from another dimesion.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Does anyone else think that creating a black hole on earth might be a bad idea? I mean, when you talk about hazardous waste, a black hole is about as hazardous as things get. Could you even theoretically shoot it far enough away from Earth for it to not be dangerous? It just seems that um... Something that naturally grows larger and larger while sucking everything in it into oblivion is something that we should, say, not create on the surface of a planet. At least, not where I live.
My little site.
http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook635.htm?cac hed
I dream in binary.
I suppose it would be funny to see the Moon or Mars get sucked into nothingness after a catastrophic black hole test. Would be even funnier if one made a "sluuuuuup!" noise as one watched it suck up on itself.
Then the Cyberdemons would invade. Doom had black holes on Mars didn't they? My memory is fuzzy.
You do have to admit that was a brilliant setup with the given contents of the link.
Nah, if the Earth gets destroyed, you'll either get to spend eternity in paradise with whatever god you believe in, or we'll all just blink into nothingness and nobody will be around to even care anymore. It's win-win!
...the dreaded Black Uranus.
That is something you don't want anywhere near you.
Not that I disagree with the mod here but why is this modded funny and the first post modded off topic - when they make the SAME JOKE!
This message was brought to you by "Lack of Sleep."
Am I the only one concerned that making mini-black holes might suck in the whole earth?
You're not the only one worrying, but trust me, there's no danger of this whatsoever. First of all, they will dissipate almsot instantly due to Hawking radiation. Second of all, they are so tiny that they will rarely (if ever) get close enough to swallow something else. Remember, on an atomic scale there is mostly space. And these things are not just small -they are so small its hard to fathom. They are formed by smashing together protons moving at 99.999999% the speed of light. A black hole (might) be formed, if, during the collision, the resultant density of the object is greater than the density required to form a black hole. The gravity will be no greater than the mass of the objects combining it, so you don't need to worry about it sucking things in. Let me jsut give you an example. A basketball could, theoretically, become a black hole, so long as you compressed its mass into a small enough area -but it would still have the gravitational pull of a basketball. And here, we are talking about turning protons into blackholes! In short, nothing to worry about chap!
And then we'd never know, would we? Where's that History Eraser Button when you need it most?
From the article:
... a black hole far smaller than a proton and circled by a squashed four-dimensional black doughnut ...
I get the impression that the "small size" thing is supposed to be reassuring. But aren't all black holes comparatively small, compared to what they've had for lunch? How big would a black hole be that, say, had accidentally swallowed the Earth? And I suppose mass should also reassure me. But the thing is, my gradeschool science oversimplification of black holes said their defining characteristic was not their mass but their insatiable, chain-reaction-like desire to swallow more mass ... like a rolling snowball.
And it's all well and good to say some theoretical rays we've never seen before will magically swing in at the end and save us, but... Since this is testing an unproven theory and not applying a well-understood theory, what are the procedures for evaluating the level of risk?
And what is the recourse of those who don't agree? Science has ethical guidelines for not experimenting on humans because of risk. Does the fact that humans are in the next room ... or the next building ... or the next city, "safely away" from the black hole being created, mean that there is no ethical obligation for informed consent? It would seem like there are more rules governing putting make-up on a rat than there are on this kind of experimentation...
I don't know the details of this kind of thing. I just have to trust someone doing them does. But I wonder exactly what I'm trusting. Anyone know?
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
"""
/only/ String Theory predicts, it'll continue to be just a bunch of math and hand waving.
This could happen if extra dimensions exist, as string theory suggests, and if they are large enough.
"""
Why is it that every single time that something suggests something that string theory "predicts" but has many many other explanations, it's touted as a victory for evidence of string theory? (btw this is similar thinking to that of "Intelligent Design" folks) In this case, there are many other theories that have more dimensions.
Basically, IF this is happens, it is only a HINT that some theory that has extra dimensions is valid. And String Theory is far from the only one. Until String Theory is able to make an experimentally verifiable prediction, that
Your markup is invalid. Any element or attribute name beginning with the string "xml" is reserved by the spec.
(This is actually a simplification of the truth, see http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#dt-name for details.)
There are 11 types of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
Black Saturn, the street tough PI that got kicked off the force for refusing to go along with some crooked cops. Now, he dispenses his own brand of street justice, but has a heart of gold that melts all the ladies.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
How does one go about disposing of a black hole?
I guess it could be used to safely store radio active waste.
- High Tech workers, please say NO to Union Carpenters, their Union sees fit to control our compensation.
Heh, the premise of Roger MacBride Allen's science-fiction novel The Ring of Charon (first volume of The Hunted Earth) is that an experiment out near Pluto ends up swallowing the Earth into a wormhole leading to a far-off part of the universe. One can't seem to get far enough away from the Earth to tinker with creation fearlessly.
This had been discussed here, and the plan to create microscopic black holes on Earth is something to be wary of.
David brin talked about man made miniature black holes eating the earth in EARTH in 1990 or so... And I don't think he was the first, or even close.
It has to do with quantum moderation - a post can be in multiple states at once (offtopic/funny) until you look at it, then it takes assumes one and only one.
First of all, they will dissipate almsot instantly due to Hawking radiation. Second of all, they are so tiny that they will rarely (if ever) get close enough to swallow something else.
Third of all: The kind of (and energy of) collision in question occurs with non-trivial frequency when cosmic rays hit atoms in the atmosphere. If it created a long-lived black hole that could suck down a planet in a geologically short time we would have been down the drain LONG ago.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
But it does answer a question once asked by a headline, when another planetary ring system had been tentatively identified:
"Is there a Ring of Debris around Uranus?"
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Dude, nothing bad ever happens in Switzerland, its fucking paradise on earth. Plus the swiss military would kick any upstart black holes ass.
You mad
Just a thought: maybe this could already have happened. How would you detect a particle smaller than a proton which presumably has no charge?
Slashdot: news for Apple. Stuff that Apple.
I predict the universe is made up of tiny ice breathing dragons. After all, nothing invalidates it so far. Theories are great, especially theories based on facts. Theorizing on unproved theories based on knowledge we don't really understand nor have the technology to adequately gather is setting yourself up for failure, though. Basically, don't jump the gun.
IIRC, particles from space, so-called "cosmic rays", strike the upper atmosphere with more energy than even the LHC will be able to manage. Therefore, if it's possible to make singularities on the quantum scale, it's already happening several miles above your head.
Don't worry. If the LHC were going to make Earth-swallowing black holes, if there were any real chance at all of it happening, then cosmic rays would have done it long long ago.
Earth-cosmic ray collisions occur at an absolutely fantastic rate, higher than the LHC would ever even dream of. The energies of cosmic rays are distributed across an extremely broad spectrum, extending both above and below LHC energies. If there is any chance of the LHC making an Earth swallowing black hole, then there is precious little chance of the earth being outside of a black hole by tomorrow morning, much less any chance of the earth having survived 4.5 billion years.
Furthermore, pretty much everything in the galaxy, and presumably in the universe, experiences a cosmic ray flux comparable to what the earth sees. If the LHC were going to make planet or star swallowing black holes, then the sky would be mostly nothing but black holes.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
I feel my chances of getting laid drop with every chuckle at this joke.
If you think Lake Geneva and Lake Constance are large, wait until you see Lake Switzerland.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I always wondered why they added the event horizon nullifier in swiss army knives!
Their knives are teh r0xorz!!!
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
priority: highest
re: micro saturn black holes
1. Formation confirmed
2. Evaporation confirmed not!!!!!!!!
The Black Saturn's.
We're really small. Our music sucks you in, and we're growing.
Don't post innacurate information
If you do, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.
Finally maybe we can put to rest that crap about there being more than 3 dimensions.
"I have a black hole...in my pants!" Um, nevermind.
Aren't females wonderful? Keep it up, girls, the gene pool is just too damn smart right now!
Cosmic ray interactions in the upper atmosphere are performing essentially this exact experiment right now, and have been since the planet formed. If there were any chance of a black hole forming and destroying the earth on a geological time scale, it would've happened already.
Besides, the resultant black hole would be absolutely minute - much much smaller than a proton. At that scale, even the densest of earthly materials is just so much empty space. The mean free path of any such hole would be absolutely huge, meaning that the chances of it getting close enough to even a small handful of atoms to swallow them as it passes through the planet are absolutely tiny.
Dan Simmons called this "The Big Mistake"
Dan Simmons writes science fiction. Perhaps you should try reading a little less sci-fi and a little more real science before yelling at people.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
"First of all, they will dissipate almsot instantly due to Hawking radiation."
Theoretical Hawking radiation.
Until now, String Theory has been that, a theory. It has been endless multidimensional mathmetics, on might cynically say to generate Phd's. Now an experiment is on the horizon which could be used to prove/disprove string theory. This should be interesting, especially if the extra dimensions are not observed.
Get a brane! -- String theory humor
FTFA: The spinning ring would also drag space-time around with it, making the central black hole spin as well.
Perhaps I'm too Newtonian in my thinking here but, in order to conserve the angular momentum (presumably zero) of the particles that went into the collision, wouldn't the central black hole have to spin in the opposite direction of the ring? In that case, since we've got two objects dragging space-time in opposite directions, what happens to space-time in the space between?
Or, since we are talking about colliding protons, are we conserving spin instead of classical angular momentum? What happens then? If the protons are aligned, is the net spin of the black hole 1 (assuming that the exclusion principle has been overcome by gravity)? If they are anti-aligned, is the resulting spin zero?
Or do we throw things completely out the window because we're talking about higher spatial dimensions?
Argh! The Fermions are attacking my brain!
[These aren't really serious questions that I expect serious answers to. I know just enough physics to have those weird questions jump into my head, but not enough to intelligently explore the possibilities.]
Saturn isn't a ring its a planet,geniuses.
All viable physical theories predict extra dimensions because as a matter of fact we've observed extra dimensions for a long time now.
Long before the string religion began we knew about electric charge and other internal quantum
numbers.
The sky is blue and my penis gets stiff when I look at high quality porn. Are those validation of string theory too
or should I look to an even higher level theory/religion like intelligent design ?
So why don't we just get a weather balloon and check out the black holes forming naturally in the atmosphere?
How does one go about disposing of a black hole?
Easy. You just roll it up and take it with you.
I doubt many Slashdotters are old enough to remember (or otherwise spend their days watching old Looney Toons cartoons), but the Calvin Calculus guy who invented the portable hole I thought was brilliant, but his invention gave me nightmares throughout most of my childhoold. No fear of the dark, fear of strangers, or fear of monsters under my bed -- just a fear of black holes, and before they became fashionable to talk about.
At least that's my excuse for not growing up to be a theoretical physicist.
hahaha, women are dumb! haha! take that gender equality!
Believe me, I'm gonna stay away from that "Large Hardon Collider". I learned my lesson last time.....
Yes but this is ann article about string theory - wait I get it - never mind
This message was brought to you by "Lack of Sleep."
Remember, if there is no 2008 Olympics: we're all fucked.
How we know is more important than what we know.
It doesn't need further confirmation.
It has successfully generated many Phd's
On a more serious note:
Extra dimensions were observed long before string theory was a fad.
Just like all of its predecessors it will never be more than a theory.
The question is : is it a useful theory that gets us leverage on our
world and a leg up on the next useful theory. Physical theories can be
tested or disproven but never proven.
If it was that easy to make black holes, then cosmic rays could cause black holes...
I think Prof Hawking said that a collider capable of making black holes, would be the size of the solar system.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
It's not that, really. It's actually just that a lot of women (who want to have shitloads of children) seem to like being smarter than the guy they're with... so it's a lot easier for them to go for the big dumb type.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
nothing sucks bigger and harder than string theory
Because the black holes (if they are formed at all) are not what we are interested in. Additionally, the detectors that we use at LHC weigh on the order of thousands of tons. That'd be an awful big weather balloon to lift them. Furthermore, the detectors we use are very narrowly focused. If a collision doesn't take place nearly exactly at the center of the detector, with the two particles involved having pretty much exactly equal speeds in opposite directions, then our measurements will not be on, or at any rate, the detector will be immensely more difficult to calibrate so that we get some kind of meaningful results from it. Also, having the detector underground, we can shield it from a lot of noise that adds uncertainty to our measurements. Finally, the results are immensely easier to study (in some ways, possible to study) if the particles involved always have nearly the same energies as in every other collision we are studying.
Cosmics have energies spread out over an absolutely huge range of energies. Their timing and location are nigh unto impossible to predict. We don't get anything like a 0 net momentum collision between a cosmic ray and an atmospheric atom. The upper atmosphere is an incredibly noisy place, primarily because of cosmics. We would have an awful hard time telling the difference between a particle that originated from a cosmic-atmosphere collision we were interested in and a stray particle that came from the hadron shower of some other cosmic-atmosphere collision.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
That is a fine explanation. Very easy for us non particle physicists to understand, and completely fits into our high school level understanding of physics. Thanks.
Arggghhh! Dammit. I actually clicked on that!!!!!!
Don't you trust me, Charlie Brown?
What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
Shouldn't this kinda thing be done off-planet?
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
RTFM please. Its blackholes that look like Saturn, not a tiny gaseous planet with enough gravity to keep a tiny ring around it.
Ignorance of 4 days is evil, Evil educators teach 1 day. 1 day will destroy humans.
Saving the World: One Drink at a Time
To be serious it would be very difficult to get enough energy to sustain such a thing - hence black holes being collapsed stars.
Things that make you go "Hmm."
Nah, not me. I tend to respect what precious little science knowledge I have by not using it to make up random shit.
Help me take back Slashdot. When did 'News for Nerds' become 'FUD and Conspiracy Theories for Extremist Nutjobs'?
Don't worry - this thing is a collider and not a plot device.
from the punk scene at CBGBs. I never thought he'd start a new band though.
That's really gonna bring down the resale value of my 2002 Saturn L200, if they can just go around making the things using atom smashers. I wonder what General Motors has to say about this.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sombrero_Galaxy_M104
I might be joking, but you never know! The centres of galaxies do contain them!
What could be better than a jet powered motorcycle? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8l6GTHLSWE
ant.
Good god, did you even take a physics class?
A small black hole carries more weight than the earth and moon? Firstly, it carries mass, not weight. Secondly, ignoring the visible event horizon, black holes do not have "size". They are zero-dimensional singularities. The result is that any mass, even say the mass of a proton, can collapse into black-hole density if you manage to compress it to point-size.
Black holes created during the experiments at the LHC would be of such low mass, they would evaporate due to Hawking radiation long before even reaching the interior wall off the collision chamber.
khasim (12/9/06): In a blind taste test, more people preferred Coke over the Pepsi that I had previously pissed in.
Well, that's a relief. I saw it on
All joking aside... good explanation, with a nice real world artifact thrown in to help Joe Q. American understand the scope involved.
OK, time for Physics 101: The mass of the original object collapsing will decide the mass of the black hole. Weight != Mass.
A larger star collapsing will form a larger black hole of the SAME mass.
A molecule collapsing to form a black hole[forced to] will form a black hole of the same mass of the molecule.
The smaller the black hole [smaller mass], the faster it will evaporate due to Hawkins Radiation.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
I agree. If the maths is rigorous & good, then give it breathing space until it's testable - what's the hurry? Why should String theories be bad, even if wrong? If they're wrong, then we'll have those fewer paths to have to choose between. In the meantime, let the equations be what they are. The maths will serve a use (simply by sitting on the shelf, for now) to somebody in the future - if the miseries will allow us, all, to go forth & multiply into that future!
;)
Any of the nay-sayers got a better, with equally conscise maths, idea for pre-'Big Bang'?
[n.b. Forget a 'Matrix' - it discounts Occam's Razor.]
Thats the quantum wave-function of your sex life actualizing.
I, for one, am glad it's not me observing it to collapse the wave function.
3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
Public Enemy reported on this already, back in 1990.
Now, I know /. has a strict policy on not RTFA, but at least glance over the summary.
Please refrain from creating black holes until I have left the solar system...
Uhm...thanks.
I think he was pointing that we should be "cautious" about how we use this technology. We're not talking about blowing up a city here. We're talking about the potential (maybe large, maybe small) to wipe out our planet and even the star system via tapping into the great "unknown" of the universe.
Unlike a video game, we don't have any Continues to call on. Make it last...
Life is not for the lazy.
Just asking...
You can't win an argument with ANYONE who has a "don't discuss this with me I know I'm right" attitude, because they don't argue. They state their beliefs, put their fingers in their ears, and just sit there.
mov ax, 4c00h
int 21h
Well, you know quantum uncertainty and quantum tunneling? Because of these phenomenon (if spelling is incorrect, please read "things") there is a very small but non-zero chance that unzipping your pants will release enough energy to vaporize the planet. So please stop risking our lives.
As long as it doesn't create manure, I'm all for it. I hate manure.
So what if it sucks us all, we're going to die anyway. What are you afraid of? At least it'd be much more spectacular than the ordinary death awaiting most of us. I'd choose Death by A Black Hole at level 55 over Ripe Old Age anyday.
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
It's just the steps science takes, thinking itself perfect.
Remember the GM corn, and how the scientist told the farmers how, "It's ok, just plant it 200 yards away from other corn." Meanwhile the most common honeybee in America can fly five miles a _day_ to it's polination chores.
If black holes are the size of strawberries, and we're dealing with microscopic attempts, that's not a huge distance to be wrong; consider the "strawberry" being powerful enough to move a _galaxy_; it wouldn't seem much to move a building...power source, or other dangerous thing, no?
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
Yeah, yeah, violates the laws of thermodynamics, etc. Homer's going to hate this. It's called "Inflation Theory" and involves generating a bubble that grows fast enough that the quantum foam inside cannot recombine. As the quantum foam switches from being virtual to being physical, the probability of a particle being matter is greater than that of it being antimatter, which results in a net positive increase in the total matter/energy in the system.
Is this likely to happen? No. Is this likely to happen within the next couple of hundred years, even if we build a supercollider the diameter of the planet? No. The energy density required are stupendous. I recall seeing it put at the same as the total energy released from a hydrogen bomb packed into a cubic centimeter. Supernovae that produce neutron stars or magnetars do not produce high enough energy densities to kick in inflationary effects.
Would it matter if it did happen? Probably not. The only known strong candidate for an inflationary event was the Big Bang (and even that has been disputed). It has been suggested that when a supermassive Black Hole forms, the required energy density is reached, creating a "blister" or "bubble universe" attached to this one via the singularity. If that does indeed happen, the massive blast of energy would never reach this universe and therefore have zero impact on anything in it. Once the Black Hole evaporates, the bridge no longer exists (since it requires the singularity) and still nothing can cross.
The kind of Black Hole that the LHC could churn out - quantum black holes - barely qualify as black holes at all. Singularities have to have spin, but the net energy of a virtual particle (which a quantum black hole is) must be zero. I think it is most unlikely, then, that a qbh is even in the same class of objects as those formed from sufficiently large supernovae. There are other criteria for black holes (one of the oddest, IMHO, is that all black holes have an internal resistance of 33 ohms) and it would be extremely odd if any of them were satisfied by a qbh. As qbh's continuously form and unform throughout all quantum foam, and as we're not seeing any background Hawking Radiation, I would have to say that these are totally different animals and that they are not Black Holes at all in the same sense as their supermassive cousins.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I stared into her deep, dark eyes.
assume the superposition, she whispered.
Ok, I told her, but don't look at me until I tell you I've already come, OK?
Last time, I didn't get to finish.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mesa_Research_F acility/ ...In addition to this legitimate research, several secret projects are also carried out at Black Mesa, which are deliberately left vague. A large amount of classified research is carried out, including the development of high-tech weapons and defense systems, research into extra-dimensional travel
"If it's lost, it'll turn up. Things always do" "I love it when a plan comes together"
I agree that these black holes are not a problem. Another argument that may convince some of you is the following:
Cosmic rays of MUCH higher energy than the LHC hit the earth's atmosphere all the time. If the LHC does create a black hole you can be absolutely sure that MANY MANY black holes have been created over the 4.5 billion years since the earth formed. So if a black hole is at all dangerous, the earth would have been already experience the black hole disaster. So since the earth is still here after 4.5 billion years that is proof that any black holes that the LHC could create will not be at all dangerous.
Even if the theory that these sub-microscopic black holes quickly evaporate is wrong. the previous argument still holds - they cannot be dangerous since otherwise the cosmic rays would have already created many of these holes and the earth would already have been destroyed. Basically these black holes would be so much smaller than a proton that it would easily pass through even a proton with only a extremely small chance it would absorb a quark from the proton.
So don't worry - be happy!
..... if extra dimensions exist, as string theory suggests, and if they are large enough."
So, string theorists still have a way out if black holes are not formed. They will just claim it wasn't large enough for us to detect or notice it and more analysis or experiments are needeed to arrive at any conclusion.
When it is said they would be extremely small, if they ever form by colliding the protons, I don't think the labs are equipped enough to identify/notice the formation of microscopic black holes when information related to the macrospoic ones are very basic.
There's always one on the "other side".
My other SIG is a Sauer.
But could it create a Black Venus (NWS)?
Funny how some childhood skinemax memories can stick in your brain.
-William Shatner can be neither created nor destroyed.
But you should agree with this?
It would be a neat solution to Fermi's Paradox if some interesting high energy physics experiment (with e.g. really heavy isotopes which aren't in cosmic radiation?) destroyed the planets it were done on?
Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
That's what I thought first, now I'm not so sure. Though I loved the first post by Kipper. His was truly funny, even for a girl.
If I could, I would mod you up to 10 as funny. Kypper's post and your answer made my day. Thanks.
...there is an outside chance that in a few years in a tunnel near Geneva, physicists will make a black hole far smaller than a proton and circled by a squashed four-dimensional black doughnut.
do we really need one of those?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
I for one welcome our new ringed black hole overlords...
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
"four-dimensional black doughnut".
Hypertorus.
If youre new to John Titor, heres the complete archive of his texts:r _project.html
p g1
. cgi?noframes;read=165532
h tml
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/the_john_tito
An interesting interview with Larry Flynt:
http://www.larryflynt.com/notebook.php?id=95
I have my fair deal of scepticism against John Titor and the claims he has traveled from the future to fetch an old IBM machine besides testing the time-machine, but so much that he wrote about in 2000-2001 thereabouts, has in fact come true. These are just the broad ones:
http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/
This is yet another drop in this mans pretty hefty prediction bucket. At the time of this link, there were no mentions of black holes being generated in the new smasher, but now it seems that this too will come true (if possible), and very much in the same timeframe as predicted too!
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread124980/
This is the person who even told Hawking was wrong, and later Hawkin conceded he was wrong on the subject!
http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/forum
Time Traveller The Movie. John Titor doesnt HAVE to be proven correct. WE can DO something about it, starting with ourselves!
http://www.fasttrackproductions.biz/TimeTravel_0.
A site that is covering news in the media and corelating it with Titors predictions:
http://www.johntitor.com/
I dont claim any of this is true, in whatever what you regard as truth, but when reading this, it is startling how accurate the person who wrote those messages in 2000-2001, is describing the trends of our society, problems of the US, Mac Cow Disease, CERN beginning to experiment with mini-black holes, and much more.. For the sake of our planet, and our future, it is worth considering living as THOUGH weve already been through this, than not. He describes a more primitive, but also a more enlightened society if you read the archives from the first link.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
How does one go about disposing of a black hole?
;-) Hey, at least you can be all lazy about it and don't have to worry about "disposing" anything. It will handle that on its own perfectly fine, given enough time! Yet another nice advantage with black holes.
You hope Hawking was right about the Hawking radiation and then wait for 10^70 years or so for it to evaporate.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Yea, and this Iran stuff just isn't helping me either...
Heres some of the most convicing quotes. Attributes goes to crims on scienceforums.net.p hp/t-19841.html
Remember these quotes were made in the early 2000-2001s, before 9/11, Patriot Act, Iraq-war, etc: http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/archive/index.
These following predictions by John Titor were the most convincing and made me think he could be real:
"Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West as a result of degrading US foreign policy and consistency."
"In the grand scheme of things, the war in the Middle East is a part of what's to come, not the cause." [This was posted in November 2000]
"I'm glad to see it's so easy for [you] to dismiss the Middle East. Yes, I suppose it is a no brainer but pretty soon it will be a "no armer" and a "no legger". [Nov 2000]
"I believe they [China] are pretty close to putting a man in orbit. It shouldn't surprise you if they do that soon." [Late 2000/Early 2001 - China put a man into orbit in Oct 2003]
"Are you really surprised to find out that Iraq has nukes now or is that just BS to whip everyone up into accepting the next war?" [Late 2000/Early 2001]
Plus he said there would be a woman president in 2008 (Condi Rice or Hillary?)... which would make sense for Condi, since she's an expert on Russia/USSR and John Titor predicted Russia would nuke USA in 2015...
My most memorable Titor-quote is:
"Are you really surprised to find out that Iraq has nukes now or is that just BS to whip everyone up into accepting the next war?" [Late 2000/Early 2001]
How could he know that so early, even before 9/11?
Heres more predictions from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6345407
Besides the American civil conflict and a third World War Titor made a number of other significant predictions:
*
America will wage war on Iraq, claiming Iraq has nuclear weapons. Titor made this statement years before a war with Iraq was considered. He also claimed no weapons of mass destruction would be found.
*
War will erupt between Israel and its Arab neighbours, and weapons of mass destruction will be used.
*
Korea, Taiwan and Japan will be annexed by China as the West becomes unstable.
*
In the early 2000's CERN will lay the foundations for time travel. In the autumn of 2001 after Titor had left, CERN released a statement indicating the creation of mini black holes was possible.
*
Mad cow disease will be a health issue in America but it will be under-played.
*
Genetically modified food will be used to produce hybrid seeds that will have detrimental effects on the population's health.
*
Titor made a number of statements about constitutional and civil rights in America. He also said the American government will assume its citizens will prefer security over certain personal freedoms.
*
The future will judge the present harshly.
Maybe not all will come to pass, but his way of writing is very convincing. We CAN do more than just hope though. We can start with ourselves, and raise the global spiritual awareness. Service to one another is the greatest thing any human can do in her lifetime.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
IANAQP, but this could mean our universe is just a huge black hole with a 4-dimensional hypertorus surrounding it. That could account for why our universe will collapse one day.
Locate the TechnoCore!
I wondered that same thing :)
Apparently the black hole would be so small that it would only last for a fraction of a second. But then that is just a theoretical outcome, based on unproven theories - who knows what will actually happen?
I guess that since the only way to prove a theory is through experimentation, the only way to find out what will happen is to try. We're a curious species, but I can't help thinking that curiosity killed the cat, and we're getting pretty close to killing the whole planet - maybe not with black holes, but one way or another.
http://physicsmathforums.com/showthread.php?t=56
Tied Up & Strung Out: Hollywood String Theory Movie!!! Looking For Extras!!!
http://revver.com/video/48391/ (WATCH IT!)
ALL TIED UP & STRUNG ALONG, a movie about String Theorists and their expansive theories which extend human ignorance, pomposity, and frailty into higher dimensions, is set to start filming this fall. Jessica Alba, John Cleese, Eugene Levie, Jackie Chan, and David Duchovney of X-files fame have all signed on to the $700 million Hollywood project, which is still cheaper than String Theory itself, and will likely displace less physicists from the academy.
"As contemporary physics is about money, hype, mythology, and chicks," Ed Witten explained from his offices at the Princeton Institute for Advanced Study, "The next logical step was Hollywood, although I thought Burt Reynolds should play me instead of Eugene Levy."
Brian Greene, the famous String Theorist who will be played by David "the truth is out there" Duchovney, explained the plot: "String theory's muddled, contorted theories that lack postulates, laws, and experimentally-verified equations have Einstein spinning so fast in his grave that it creates a black hole. In order to save the world, we String Theorists have to stop reformulating String Theory faster than the speed of light. We are called upon to stop violating the conservation of energy by mining higher dimensions to publish more BS than can accounted for with the Big Bang alone, and I win the Nobel prize for showing that M-Theory is in fact the dark matter it has been searching for."
Greene continues: "At first my character is reluctant to stop theorizing and start postulating, but when my love interest Jessica Alba is sucked into the black hole, I search my soul and find Paul Davies there, played by John Cleese. I ask him what he's doing in my soul, and he explains that the answer is contained in the mind of God, which only he is privy too, but for a small fee, some tax and tuition dollars, a couple grants here and there, and an all-expense-paid book tour with stops in Zurich and Honolulu, he can let me in on it. And he shows me God in all her greater glory, as he points out that we can make more money in Hollywood than writing coffee-table books that recycle Einstein, Bohr, Dirac, Feynman, and Wheeler. I am quickly converted, and I agree to turn my back on String Theory's hoax and save Jessica Alba."
But it's not that easy, as standing in Greene's way is Michio "king of pop-theory-hipster-irony-the-theory-of-everything- or-anything-made-
you-read-this" Kaku, played by Jackie Chan. Kaku beats the crap out of Greene for alomst blowing the "ironic" pretense his salary, benefits, and all-expense paid trips depend on. "WE MUST HOLD BACK THE YOUNG SCIENTISTS WITH OUR NON-THEORIES!! WE MUST FILL THE ACADEMY WITH THE POMO DARK MATTER THAT IS STRING THEORY TO KEEP OUR UNIVERSE FROM FLYING APART, OUR PYRAMID SCHEMES FROM TOPPLING, AND OUR PERPETUAL-MOTION NSF MONEY MACHINE FROM STOPPING!!" Kaku argues as he delivers a flying back-kick, "There can be ony ONE! I WILL be String Theory's GODFATHER as referenced on my web page!! I have better hair!"
But Greene fights back as he signs his seventeenth book deal to make the hand-waving incoherence of String Theory accessible to the South Park generation, senior citizens, and starving chirldren around the world. "Kaku! Kaku! (pronounced Ka-Kaw! Ka-Kaw! like Owen Wilson did in Bottle Rocket)," Greene shouts. "It is theoretically impossible to build a coffee tables strong enough to support any more coffee-table physics books!!!"
"Time travel is also theoretically impossible, but there's a helluva lot more money for us in flushing physics down a wormhole. Nobody knows what the #&#%&$ M stands for in M theory ya hand-waving, TV-hogging crank!!! Get it?? Ha Ha Ha! We're laughing at the public! We're the inside
Isn't there some theory that says once a civilization reaches a certain technological point in their development they wipe themselves out?
Sure it wasn't a movie starring Richard Roundtree?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
It's a helluva way to ruin a date. I mean, noone wants to kiss a guy who's been infinitely diminished.
I'm happy as long as the collider doesn't start emitting blue-ringed uranuses.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
I am not that versed with the 4th dimension. If the black saturn is in the 4th dimension, is it possible for it to move in the 4th dimension ie. though time (in general not just the black saturn). If it is possible then what would happen??
.... what about making golden Kia's?
I cannot because my proxy blocks the site. It is marked as a bad IP that might install malware on my system. Must be their advertising or something.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I would love to, but my proxy says it is a bad IP and blocks it. So I cannot read it at all.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
... a caffeinated black 4D donut?
I think scientists as a whole need to come up with a different argument strategy.
People who shout "ZOMG!!1!one! The fizzy-sists are going to destroy teh w0rld, and then there'll be no more intarw3b!!" are NOT the same people who respond to sentences starting with "Our observations of the phsyical anomaly..."
I propose a method of name-calling, in which the educated get off their intellectual high-horses just long enough to say "STFU, n00b! Just because you're a retarded zealot doesn't mean I haven't done my homework. You remember homework, right? That stuff you thought was t3h ghey in highschool?".
Rise up in the cafeteria and STAB them with your plastic forks!
You don't understand the Time Cube, do you?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Which is ok, because it's all really a joke we're making up between ourselves and the indivisible unit of space / time / energy / matter is a "ficton".
Help stamp out iliturcy.
...could this be modded "informative"
Particle in a 1D box of width n where n approximates the width of 90% probability of the box (usually an observed atomic radius). The KE of the particle is 1/2 mv^2, the total energy of the particle is mc^2. Use the Hamiltonian, the Eigenfunction, and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Compute a field of 90% probability for the particle at any given time. It takes about two blackboards per iteration. High powered computer programs crunch the numbers for us in molecular m0deling software.
The complexity of the box can be increased to incorporate all three dimensions. This accounts for the different shapes of the different electron orbitals (s, p, d, and f) and their hybrids (eg. sp3) for atoms of increasing numbers of protons and energy levels.
This is typically employed to characterize electrons though the same principles are seen, in various forms, when dealing with photons and subatomic particles. The ring being proposed for a black hole created in Switzerland results from the mathematical computations used to support quantum and string theories.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
How does this information apply to dark matter? It was reported on the science show Futurama that "dark matter is so dense that every pound of dark matter weighs 10,000 pounds."
I always new it would be the swiss who created the first man-made earthsucking black lexus/saturn whatever of death... Neutral! Ha! yeah right. they have been lying low, creating the ultimate thing of destruction that may or may not do some stuff and destroy earth!
Until we are ready to deal with Species 8472 I don't think we should attempt this...
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
Like the light wave that exits the caesium tube before it went in; the future already exists* (just as the past does) - the boffins've just got to learn to work on it & patiently wait for it to show itself - whatever 'it' turns out to be! As it stands, we've still, yet, to get a decent hold on mastering Time - we don't know how to move backwards & forwards in it, only that we move forwards at 1x Planck Time.
Away from classical mechanics, what I see with QT is that if we can, somehow, create a decoy observer, then a real observer might be able to 'backdoor' any observations. i.e. Create a crossfire & make the Superposition pay attention to something that isn't actually it's 'hunter' (although it might 'think'/spooky-action so). This has the potential to flush it out, break it open, etc., particularly with regard to any temporal implications, I suspect.
If there are higher dimensions, than spacetime, I would expect even any most observable one to be beyond any scale we've actually, humanly entered, so far - likely superuniversal (at least, several experimental craft to followup the Pioneer anomaly?) rather than subatomic. As we're well aware, at the moment, the practitioners are much too far behind the thinkers. The thinkers can afford to slow down, for a while, until we have practical results to build the next ideas upon.
*I understand the idea of 'free will' to be a smokescreen to our worldly circumstances - as we each take the path of least resistance (most economic) for each of our own specific circumstances (including during a person's conflicts of self-interest); like a raindrop down a window, apple falling from a tree, etc.
"he detectors that we use at LHC weigh on the order of thousands of tons."
I've been to the movies, no detector is bigger then a small laptop and can be easily removed when running from the bad guys!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Black holes are not magical things that suck everything into them. Its gravitational field is a property of its mass, and there is no more mass in "mini" black holes than there is put into them.
I'm still waiting for someone to prove that reality isn't disproveable. At that point we can give up all this silly shenanigans and get on with building better propulsion systems and colonizing the universe
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
Even if it is a hoax, debunking it should be done with an open mind. All his assertions are either empty assumptions or misunderstandings of the era in Titors story. I wrote a reply to it:
You are too intelligent for your own good, which is limiting your mind. You set out with some assumptions, and then try to prove why the story must be a hoax. As you will see, this limits your perspective and understanding, so you create assumptions and then break these straw-men away. But they are your own creations and misunderstandings, not Titors.
Firstly, you have to remember the Titor posts were written in the early 2000-2001, BEFORE 9/11, BEFORE the costly iraq war, BEFORE Mac Cow Disease broke out, BEFORE CERN decided to test mini-black holes and was then downplayed, BEFORE China put a man into orbit. These are predictions Titor made, and came true (except the atom smasher to test mini-black holes have not finished yet but will be within 2007 - well within Titors timeframe). THIS is what is startling people, but I wont go into "proving" the predictions positive, since this is about debunking a hoax, it gets meaningless. I just want to show that these predictions were NO WAY common sense at the time, or expected behaviour of the world.
Your first assumption is that the economy is communism-based, because it is based on labour. This is patently a misunderstanding. The society is more capitlist than ever, but it is a COMMUNAL-based society. People DEPEND on each other for survival. However, those who cannot labour, is weak, handicapped, whatever, THEY DIE. Simply, the society has no resources to feed the weak, so you have to labour for your food, wether you get it from friends, relatives, through the money-system or whatever. If you dont take care of your own health and body, theres no hospital or complex surgeries that can save you. It is a much more chaotic economic system, but communism is just a straw-man and a loaded/meaningless word set up by you.
You then assume how economics would be in a surviving USA after nuclear war, civil war and pandemic. How can you predict? People will still want to survive. If old paper money makes a means to barter, people may just decide to use it, or make new money. Somehow, something will survive, and maybe GE has other sites, where they actually produce stuff and you know, it may even sound plausible since GE still has factories in the USA. This is just one more empty assumption, proving nothing.
You then attempt to "debunk" the Many Worlds theory, which is a sound variation of one of the string theories physicists are arguing over. Of course this is impossible to discuss since we dont know the parameters of our own universe yet, but importantly, nobody has yet to come up with inconsistencies in Titors claim. In fact, Titor made the claims of the Many Worlds theory, and later Stephen Hawking himself said that he had been wrong and the Many Worlds theory indeed will solve the grandfather-paradox. (However, keep in mind MW-theory came before Titor.)
So, you wish this is a hoax, and then create a few arguments that doesnt have any weight why it is a hoax. This is the best example of how our own mind can fool ourselves, and we can believe our dogma without objective evidence. You are the victim of your own limitations of your mind.
At least you could have done a bit of research. On the wiki-page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor
There seems a good contradiction against Titors claims is that the Olympics would end in 2004, but Winter Olympics were held in 2006. However, some people claims he meant the summer olympics (being from USA his worldview is statistically narrower), or that his worldline is different from ours already so it may not even happen here. Many others of his claims came true however.
The relevant Titor-quote is: "As a result of the many conflicts, no, there were no official Olympics after 2004. However, it appears they may be revived in in 2040."
So y
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Ok, great post, but I have to know - why 33 ohms? Why constant at all?
Kudos on recognizing and admitting that microblack holes might not be formed at all (and a possible inference that maybe they're somebody's wet dream rather than an actual part of the universe). It seems such things get overhyped and are often related to acquiring pubicity (fame and fortune) rather than serious attempts at explainations.
I've also wondered for a good while now just how biased the experiments have become and when. After all, detection equipment and data processing are designed based on expectations and interpretations from earlier experiences. It appears that such complexities have been around for quite some time now where so much is pretty much beyond the researcher's ability to do so without the assistance of rather sophisticated and perhaps biased tools.
As for the cosmic rays - the vast majority of those are very low power compared to what is being done now under controlled environments. However, there are plenty of higher energy ones impacting the atmosphere at rates pretty much dependent on just how high the energy is. The highest ones are quite rare but contain substantially more energy than anything an earth based or human controlled experiment could ever produce. Even in sci-fi land, the notion of building and controlling a device the size of the inner solar system composed of all of the mass of a rather decent sized globular cluster is well beyond the pale.
If it's possible to form a micro black hole with human attainable energy levels, then cosmic rays must be doing so quite regularly in our atmosphere on a random basis. Since nothing has ever been seen - if you discount the publicity activities many years ago by that UT guy suggesting the Tunguska event was one, then it's pretty well assured that the latest member of the disaster pantheon is another paper tiger.
Btw, please describe what a prism shape is. A prism generally refers to an optical device, often made of glass, and prism are available in a variety of shapes. Hence a prism shape is at best very ambiguous if not meaningless.
As for the example of the partial meter stick, if you're talking about the stretching or compacting of space preferentially in a direction, then why wouldn't the meter stick be subject to the expansion or contraction as well?
Also, your earlier reference to what you referred to as the star wars trash dump has a name. It's called a trash compactor. They're actually available in much bigger sizes than those that fit in the kitchen cabinet.
Evolution is clearly and without a doubt a natural process limited by the natural world and the fundamental laws of the universe. Intelligent design tries to name the author of the laws of the universe. That's an exercise in cosmic gossip, not science.
If anyone can actually provide an explanation (not merely a proof), I'd love to see it myself.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
So the new word for thiests is new agers?
Can I call athiests satanists just to be fair?