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Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops?
An anonymous reader writes "With KDE 4.0 being expected some time this year, expectation runs high in the linux/unix users camp and the media read a lot between the lines of what the KDE developers say and do. In some ways KDE will provide a standard as to how a desktop should look and behave. This interesting article wonders whether KDE 4.0 will become the complete desktop which will meet the needs of a wide cross section of computer users. One of the common complaints that some Linux users have over KDE is that it is too cluttered. And by addressing this need without putting off the power users, the KDE developers could make it an all in one Desktop. Keep in mind that KDE 4.0 is based on Qt 4.0 and so can be easily ported to Windows and other OSes too which makes this thought doubly relevant."
Vista will be superior, ALWAYS
Why would you run another desktop on top of Windows? Wouldn't you take a performance hit for running two desktops, in essence?
http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
To conquer the world... er... desktop they'll need to smooth out the theme a bit, and simplify -- which FTA seems to support. I'm all for unifying the desktop to some extent, further bridging the gap between Gnome and KDE. Lets face it, when you use a computer you have never touched before, you kinda expect things to work similarly and for widgets to be in more or less similar places.
And it has to be pretty, can't forget pretty.. lol
You have a desktop whose developers still think it is cute to play idiotic naming games with the letter K.
The KDE Kiddies should grow the fuck up if the want to be taken seriously in the grown up world of polished commercial desktops and application market.
Wake me up when you can copy and paste between applications as you can in Windows or on the Mac. Until issues like that are fixed, KDE will continue to be a second class citizen when it comes to Desktop environments.
Why hasn't it been done, then?
The only thing that's "easy" is for non-programmers to say "well this toolkit is released for multiple OS's so it must be easy to port!"
Let me know when you got that working, k?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
... in 3D like pages in a Rolodex, then I'm not interested. (sarcasm off)
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Because if they did, they might notice that blog post talks more about Dolphin than anything else, and has virtually nothing to say about whether or not KDE 4.0 is the Holy Grail of desktops.
Hope they get some click-throughs from the traffic though.
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
No.
No it isn't.
I was briefly interested, but then I glanced at the screen shot, and nearly vomited from the ugliness.
finally I can use a windows box with a different gui, thus negating that iky feeling when I use a win box... I like my centos box quite nicely running gnome.
Ever since Windows 3.1, and even today, you do not have to run "Explorer" as your desktop.
A lot of people don't realize this, but the whole of the windows "desktop" - the task bar, the icons, the menus, the right click on the desktop, all runs under a single instance of the "explorer" process.
Via the registry you can change your shell to anything - including the old progman.exe from Windows 3.1 if you have it lying around (heck it even shipped with Windows until Windows 2000). I have switched my shell to Afterstep many times.
There is no logical reason you couldn't switch to KDE as your desktop environment after it had all been ported to windows. It would not have any kind of a built-in performance hit.
Ok, I recently switched from Gnome to KDE 3.5 and really have no plans to go back, but saying something which isn't even close to finished is "most-bestest" would seem to be jumping the gun.
I'm sure we can find as many blog entries about how Vista is most-bestest, or Gnome, or Xfce. Of those, I'd only ever buy the Xfce argument but to each their own.
Just take a look at the ugly cluttered mess in the screenshot and tell me the article's author isn't being sarcastic.
Thank god for fluxbox and multi-aterm.
I also hope that this release will make KDE fonts look sharp, crisp and beautiful by default. It is unfortunate that many times, we in the Linux community have to seek Microsoft's help on fonts in order to have a desktop that is a pleasure to look at.
Hardly.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm a huge fan of KDE. KDE is the project that made me think "yes, I will eventually be able to learn to use Linux" -- that was back in its 1.0 days. Now I use Linux full time (I still consider myself a beginner though). KDE is a good desktop -- it's knaming konventions are a klittle kstrange, but it's still a good desktop that makes basic Linux use a lot easier while not actually preventing you from getting into the guts of everything. It's my desktop of choice (I use Kubuntu).
But the Holy Grail of Desktops? There is no such beast, and there are too many opinions about what such a beast would be. There are too many people who want too many different things in their desktop. For my part, I want to see some desktop incorporate all the OO elements from OS/2's Workplace Shell... I've yet to see it happen. That's my "Holy Grail," and I expect if it were ever implemented it would be anathema to someone else.
The very thought that it might be able to "meet the needs of a wide cross section of computer users" would automatically make it fail in the eyes of some. I know and have spoken with some usability nuts who claim that there is One True Path to usability, and anyone who wants to do things differently is simply doing things WRONG, and that they need to learn the One True Path and experience how much better it is. "Acommodation" would be a design flaw from that perspective.
All that aside, I'm looking forward to KDE 4. One thing I've come to expect from the KDE developers is that everytime they release a new version of KDE I wind up liking the new version significantly more than the older version, and I think that's the most realistic expectation you can hope to have about software...
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
As far as I'm concerned, the perfect desktop is Windowmaker.
I use it on OpenBSd and Linux and it works nearly perfect.
I think I must have got the wrong article from that link. The one I read said that there may be a replacement for Konqueror called Dolphin but that Konqueror would still be available if people wanted it.
Was the one about KDE Being The Holy Grail Of The Modern Desktop anymore interesting ?
Maybe when I get a newer faster computer, but for now I'm sticking with fvwm and tkdesk.
...or maybe I don't?
They talk about how they want to basically include two file managers - the cluttered yet powerful Konqueror for power users AND the simpler yet still powerful Dolphin for everyone else, and then go on to say...
"Indeed if this trend is duplicated across other KDE applications, KDE 4.0 could very well end up as the holy grail of Desktops."
Different users with different needs is the problem here, and they need to solve it somehow. Are they suggesting that there should be two text editors, two video players, two web browsers, etc? Why not just keep saying "KDE is not for you" to those who don't like it?
Basically, they can't come up with a solution for everyone and want to include more options and more confusion, and THAT is the "Holy Grail" of desktops?
what-does-that-make-gnome-then
The Holy Hand Grenade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_Manager
KDE looks so tinker-toy with all its icons and crap.
Though, they both seem to have issues with me customizing them. Yeah, it's possible, but the options I want are always hidden in some gconfedit.cf.conf.1.3 bullcrap file somewhere.
I don't want a new window every time I click a folder. I like to store my files heirarchically, and nest directories. I don't see how this makes me a bad person. Don't bury the option to turn that shit off. It was annoying in Windows 3.1, it's just as annoying on a linux box.
And KDE really needs a "lite" checkbox somewhere, to turn off all the bling blang for those of who choose not to "keeps it real".
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Lookee here, dipshit:http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/
1.) If developers wants the everyday non-savvy users to use Linux then as a professional web developer I shouldn't have to even think of messing with the console just to install a Firefox nightly build. I don't care how much power is in the console I'm not using it and regular computer users sure as hell aren't. Point: get a unified installer system setup. Hell OSX is based on Unix (just like Linux) and it has a "drag the icon from here to there" installer. Why doesn't Linux (ANY flavor of it for that matter) have something ANYTHING along those lines? 2.) Don't use the crappy AC97 onboard audio in place of my Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Platinum audio card... and then give me no GUI option to switch from the onboard (no-3D audio btw) audio device. 3.) Keys need to work include Win+D, CTRL+ESC, ALT+TAB, CTRL+ALT+DEL, among many others. Xandros gains credit in my eyes for at least saying, "Hey, we know since 99% of the frigin world is stuck on Windows we thought it'd be cool to let you use those same keyboard controls". 4.) Call your control panel a control panel, or at least use the words preferences, settings, or something exceptionally obvious instead of just plain "YAST". If I'm a non-savvy user YAST sounds like spyware. 5.) If you debate me don't use your family who have all been learning Linux ANYWAY and aren't considered the typical non-savvy computer user. 6.) Stop using virtual memory by force. Sure it's a safety belt to some degree such as with web servers but I have yet to see any program that say, "Oh crap, using the hard drive as memory, maybe I should say something". And don't give me the "Well it doesn't need to be in memory" crap argument because if it doesn't need to be in memory then DON'T FRIGIN LOAD IT. Kudos thought to Linux for running on really old hardware. 7.) Stop turning my hard drive in to swiss cheese. One drive one partition. 8.) Make Konqueror's GUI a little easier to use by allowing icons to be dragged instead of the extremely confusing separate CAGE layout where I can't move an icon all the way to one side because it's locked up on another. Firefox's GUI has the potential to be good (it's default settings just aren't any good for the non-savvy). Kudos though for it doing pretty good on the CSS3 selectors test... http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/ Don't get me wrong, Linux is great and all but for as long as it's been around you'd think someone would have fixed these problems by now. I'm sticking with XP for now though for now I give Xandros the most credit thus far. Hey, at least they have made an honest attempt with their Windows EXE installer even though it did not work with a Firefox nightly build, kudos for making it to begin with.
- John
http://www.jabcreations.com/
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Any desktop that is free of smelly feet is automatically the holy grail.
Until KDE exhibits the following:
1. standardized operation for ALL applicatation.
2. cut and paste between ALL applications..
3. Applications must ALL be uniform in operation of common functions..
4. Uniform operation of input devices (mouse)..
5. Easily customizable..
6. Standardized behavour on any local or remote environment..
7. Some kind of direct video support (games, etc...).
And, don't tell me that these are all true. I have to use a linux GUI desktop and KDE is the best choice but lacks all of the above.
Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
I too have inferred two things namely:
1) You are an idiot.
2) Whoever submitted this is an idiot.
I'm actually a daily KDE user, so this isn't a rant.
I want linux to succeed as much as the next kde user but articles like this just set everyone's expectations way too high. There are issues that don't have much to do with KDE, but because that's what the average user sees, they may blame it on KDE. It's the ages-old hardware issues. Printers is still an issue for home users.
Beyond that, there are glaring holes in some of the applications. (print selection for example)
My personal wish is that some of the kde projects would focus on specific types of users. For example, I bet Law Office users have some needs that outlook doesn't do well instead of being a medium-slow follower. No, I'm not talking about an "exchange killer" because trying to eat a big part of exchanges market isn't likely. (not impossible, not likely)
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
No.
Next question.
'dipshit:' is not part of the URL. Wanted to point that out just in case.
Is retardedly cluttered. If that's what KDE calls cleaning up, I'd hate to see what they consider busy. As long as KDE continues to look and behave as a second-rate Windows 9x, I'm staying the fuck away.
Again? I've been hearing that this is the year of the Linux desktop since 1996!
. . .does it run on Emacs?
You are not the customer.
Especially if you use fvwm2.
Then there is the g thingy.
NB: Desktop wars can be just as much fun a editor wars. vi fan.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
I have a few small problems with KDE's present file manager. TFA was very short on details, and TFS is entirely misleading. The article is about a new file manager called Dolphin, not about KDE at all.
Konqueror problems: Like Windows Explorer, it wants to be a web browser. I don't want it to be a web browser; I have Firefox for that! Firefox is far, far superior as a web browser.
More importantly, Konqueror, like some damned Microsaoft application, wants to do things its way and won't remember my way. Like Windows Explorer it wants to give me icons. I don't want icons; I want a detailed list with time stamps, etc. But it won't remember that I told it that; the next time I open it it's back to the same damned defaults.
If Dolphin overcomes these two behaviors I percieve as being bugs (even though the designers surely think of them as features) it will supplant Konqueror on my desktop.
Too bad TFA was so lame.
It's called paragraphs.
amiright?
for exceptionally large values of 'year'
"In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
of its co8e
Good thing you can then.
Damn KDE fanboys! KDE will provide a standard for how something should poorly integrate with 90% of the apps available on the host OS and supply its own set of productivity apps managed by the same project, much like Microsoft supplying Office and Notepad and IE and Explorer and Windows Media Player; except KDE's major apps are broken (example: as someone with a Microsoft Office Word Expert cert, ABIWord feels most comfortable; OpenOffice Writer is annoying with its formatting and such dialogs in odd places; and KWord was lacking basic functionality last I looked, it didn't even want to take line spacing in pts). I could nitpick technical issues like how they use C++ and how compiled object oriented languages totally destroy CPU branch prediction and C++ itself adds tons of vague linkage and excess symbols (making the programs load slower; KDE has a server that forks copies of itself and becomes the KDE app, or something.. kdeinit, it's meant to do the same basic job as prelink but without altering executables); but I'll just say that I find XFCE and Gnome to have much nicer and cleaner environments. IceWM could become quite nice itself if anyone wanted to bring it up like XFCE or GNOME.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
It sure won't be the ultimate desktop without this. I use ubuntu (I know, gnome based) a lot, but the font rendering in linux drives me nuts.
BTW, cleartype costs about US$1 to licence per desktop.
"it's good slashdottes never RTFA"
/.ers) will blame the editors for the bad headlines & stories that we pick.
So are you saying this new-fangled Firehose means we're not blaming the editors anymore?
I propose a compromise: Allow Slashdot's experiment in direct democracy to continue, but we (the
... is Qt. GPL is by far the biggest problem with KDE. It's impossible to develop non-GPL applications using the KDE stuff without paying a crapload of money to Trolltech. Currently Qt is way too expensive compared to other things like MSDN and it just keeps getting more expensive while MSDN gets cheaper (plus Apple's tools are free!).
I have tried KDE many times over the years just to check it out but I stick with GNOME based pretty much solely on the licensing. Qt is a fairly nice API (if buggy at times) but forcing me into GPL isn't good (I prefer LGPL and BSD-style). I wouldn't even mind paying for Qt if it was reasonably priced.
Granted you don't have to use Qt to develop for KDE but then you're not really integrating with the desktop (especially for anything with a UI).
The ratio of people to cake is too big
For one, the KDE 4.0 development snapshots are using Qt 4.2, and by the time KDE 4.0 is released in a few months, Qt 4.3 will probably be released and used as well.
Another gripe is that KDE 4.0 is the base KDE 4 release; that is, it will contain the foundation for all KDE 4 applications along with its "core" applications all updated to use said base. KDE 4.0 (like KDE 3.0 and presumably 2.0 and 1.0; I'm not that old a Linux user sadly) will be more of a "proof of concept" release that updates all the KDE 3.5 applications to use Qt 4 along with the new "Pillars of KDE" (check the Dot for articles about it). However, it is expected that KOffice 2.0, Amarok 2.0, KDevelop 4.0, and several other key applications will be released with KDE 4.0, and those are major upgrades beside the typical updated usage of KDE libraries, Qt 4, and all the other things updated with KDE 4.
What I'm getting at here is that KDE 4.1 and beyond are the Holy Grails if anything; at this point, the developer interest in KDE should spike to above KDE 3 levels (especially due to the new platforms it supports: Windows and Mac OS X) and the new applications and innovations will begin. Just look at the major differences between KDE 3.5.6 and KDE 3.0 for example to see how much a major revision tends to change over time and include new programs. Basically, KDE 4.0 is the beginning of the quest for the Holy Grail (not to mention all the Python usage in some KDE distros like Kubuntu), but the Holy Grail itself will be a future release of KDE 4.
If you speak from a developer's standpoint, KDE 4.0 can be argued to be the Holy Grail, but not from the user's standpoint.
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
Personally, I find the defauly Windows XP GUI patronising and completely unusable - I much prefer the Windows "Classic" desktop, the only thing missing from it is a proper dual pane file manager that shows one directory in the left window, another in the right window and a number of easily accessible commands for working with files beneath each window (a la Midnight Commander or Directory Opus).
KDE is also nice but far too flashy and bloaty for a power user like me - given the choice between KDE and Gnome, I choose Gnome but even then with some reservations about the wasted screen real estate with Gnome.
But if I need a GUI enviroment that just allows me to have multiple shells or apps running, without too much need for filetype integration (so that when I double-click on, say, a JPEG image icon, a viewer application opens the image for me) then XFCE4 is a good compromise for usability and speed.
I can see *ABSOLUTELY NO NEED* for 3D file explorers on 3D desktops unless you simply want a fashion accessory just to show off to friends. Unless you use a PC for gaming (which admittedly I do quite a lot), then everything else you do on it is about productivity and using an application to get a job done quickly and easily - if any desktop effects do not make that productivity work any faster, then they are a complete and total waste of time.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
If you are a full-on Free Software advocate and only care about writing free/open source software, then I can see why KDE/Qt is usually the best choice. On the other hand, if you are interested in commercial development, like myself, you need to look at pricing as well. If you only want to develop for Windows, then the "SDK" is free and the "IDE" can range from free to a couple of grand with a premium MSDN subscription. But Qt itself costs around $1780 to $6600 on a per developer basis depending on console/GUI one/two/three platform development. If you work for a company with any clout, you can probably cut that cost in half for either platform.
Although I'm not doing anything now, the first thing I would use for a lean startup cross platform development is ACE with wxWidgets on Visual Studio Express or Eclipse with CDT.
It is just my opinion, but I think the pricing for Qt is too high. I wonder how big the Linux Desktop "pie" could grow if we could all settle on Qt if it fell under LGPL or BSD? Trolltech's smaller piece of a bigger pie, might still be bigger than the one they have now. Putting GPL/Free Software asisde for a second, from a commercial perspective, I don't want a "new Microsoft" on the Linux Desktop. Perhaps someone with some cash could revive the Harmony Toolkit...
See my subject!
To be merely usable by me, they'd need to include a theme that doesn't suck (bundle; I don't want to go hunting for themes online, only to replace the default crap; and yes, they all suck), icons that don't look like crap, but most of all, unclutter the UI (no, even Dolphin doesn't really look uncluttered, but rather crappy; take a look at Thunar for a better example; its only fault is that it doesn't give you a decent desktop (xfdesktop sucks)).
Oh, and basic things like remembering window size and location. Konqueror, I'm talking to you. It also sucks that I have to remember how many windows I have open. Close-window is C-w, but if it's the last one, I have to C-q to quit. AarrgH!
The best thing: all these issues could have been dealt with with KDE3. There's nothing that would benefit from a better or faster toolkit. While KDE3 isn't fast, it's still adequate. OTOH, I can run other WMs or DEs, so why even bother? If some people like KDE3 or 4, power to them.
Unix Socket, general Sockets, Signals, IPC, Process control, File locking, fine control over FileIO, etc.
Yeah, they operate in similar ways except in all the parts that make life difficult porting, which MS has seen to it, that it is some of the most important parts.
IOW, they are nothing alike and it requires quite a bit of work to port from any OS to Window. It is even easier to port from Unix to VMS or Unix to MVS since they both support POSIX beyond the first level.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
For instance halflife.exe is a good shell for windows.
©God
not until it starts to look more like gnome and less like an explosion in a widget factory.
OHHHHHH
flame on.
There is no holy grail, that's why there are many other window managers out there in wide use. You might as well ask if Ubuntu is the "Holy Grail" of Linux.
I personally can't stand KDE. I have the libraries installed because of one application that just works easier than other alternative I've found (k3b) but that's it, and I don't run it all that often. I run Gnome (vanilla Ubuntu) but since I've got to wipe that computer for other reasons, I'm going to be installing Xubuntu, because Gnome, like KDE, has a bunch of bloat, both from a visual design and code perspective, I just have found Gnome less bad. XFCE is darn close to my Holy Grail as far as window managers go, but that doesn't work for my father, who will be running MacOS X until his dying day, because he loves it, or my girlfriend who still uses Enlightenment e17 and is EXTREMELY touchy when anyone suggests that she try something newer.
This kind of religious evangelism from the KDE community over a window manager turns off an awful lot of people. Yes, there are an awful lot of people that find that KDE is a wonderful desktop for them. Awesome. However, there are an awful lot of people that don't like it, too. Gnome didn't pay off Sun Microsystems, Canonical, or Red Hat so their window manager could be made the default. Acting like the Flying Spagetti Monster wants KDE to be on everyone's desktop just makes you look like jerks.
Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops?
<flamebait type="religious">No. KDE4 isn't vaporware which makes a lot of promises but is nowhere to be found.</flamebait>
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
This interesting article wonders whether KDE 4.0 will become the complete desktop
Does it also dream of electric sheep?
Have you read my journal today?
No. KDE 4.0 is not the holy grail of desktops. Anything else you wondered about?
Hey, do the Gnome devs know you managed to find your way to the web browser? Don't tell them or they'll take it away from you.
Ooooh, snap!
Xfce with the iFox Graphite theme. Minimalist desktop with no clutter. Program launcher at the bottom and Window selector at the top. Now if only the Apps were designed so the menus stayed static at the top and the status line stayed static at the bottom, just like the mac, that would be really cool.
This makes me wonder though. I'm not a linux pro nor have I been nominated for the "Master of teh shells![tm]" award at any time, but if you can get KDE running as a Windows Desktop replacement, would beryl run on top of that ported KDE instance too? This would be a nice Aero replacement that has no "Vista and a uber-performance computer" only restriction.
Whereas KDE policy is "If you disKover some empty spaKe, add an useless feature or somethinK very very irritatinK. The iKon must be shiny, rotatinK, and Kontain at least one K.", the GNOME policy is the opposite: "If you find a feature, it might confuse a user, so remove it." [1]
The kind of Slashdot topics are always entertaining and generate lots of activity. they have ever since the first "X versus Y" arguments were made and are the preferred intellectual geek sport. My inner geek wants a say, so here it is.
X11 is a wonderful "desktop". You can decorate it any way you want with Gnome or KDE or many other excellent window managers and desktop environments that all server different needs and are highly customizable. Just take your pick and expend a little effort and your GUI desktop becomes your servant, supporting your productivity and enjoyment. Do we want just one way? Hell no!
If there is and "Holy Grail" in computing, it is the design of applications to be as platform and OS agnostic as possible. There are many technical reasons why a particular piece of hardware is the best for a job or a particular OS is the best for a job or a particular app is best, but no hardware/OS/app is useful universally and diversity will encourage innovation and provide more and better choice.
The real threat is that the hardware/OS/app thing is used in an anti-competitive way for vendor lock-in; that just mucks things up and rarely results in anything good for the end user. From hardware manufacturers to OS vendors to software developers, those who ply their craft and ignore standards and interoperability should be exposed and ridiculed and shunned. The tolerance for pushing out crap should be reduced. Best practices should be the hallmark of everyone if we want things to get better, because the "Best Practices versus Ass" arguments is mercifully short. We can argue all day over Best Practices, but at least that keeps us headed in the right direction all the time.
After all, it's the quest for the Holy Grail that's important, not the Grail itself.
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
... in Soviet Russia!
Tyranny isn't the worst enemy of a democracy. Cynicism is.
You should use Total Commander, which is a la Midnight Commander (or Norton Commander if you prefer, it was the first). It has a lot of functionality, integrated ftp client, you can unpack archives etc. You can download a fully functional trial version to try it.
Why the hell does this idiot who copies his content from other places, usually dot.kde.org, after some cropping of the images get this publicity so he gets more ad revenue.
If you want to post some news, link to the originals please.
It's kluttered.
KDE ressembles more and more quartz-wm/OS X.
Most screenshots really make it look like a girl with too much makeup.
But wow I like that System Monitor. Just seeing that CPU load drop with that cool transparent effect really turns me on!
And Kate, oh she's a beaut'!
Last thing: people who are going to install KDE just to play KMahjong might be interested to know we've got lots of lonely-geek games like that on OS X.
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
I love KDE but it is not the "Holy Grail!"
:)
If you have read the Da Vinci Code, then wouldn't the "Holy Grail" be Linus's daughter, Patricia Miranda Torvalds?
Wake me up when you can copy and paste between applications as you can in Windows or on the Mac.
I'm not sure about Mac, but Windoze copy and paste would be a huge downgrade to what's available in free software desktops. KDE and Gnome co-operate well as do most other applications these days. Cutting and pasting preserves formats most of the time. For instance, I can cut a table in Konqueror and paste it into Gnumeric and have it line up right. The same thing happens with text editors ... across desktops ... across networks. I can compare this to the clumsy world of Windoze where cutting and pasting between non free applications is always a crap shot and the network is opaque at best. When I'm forced to use a Windoze machine, I feel like reaching for a floppy.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
PROS:
I had it up, running and debugged in six weeks. I had never seen the Qt library before in my life. That is how quick the Qt Framework is to learn and deploy.
CONS:
The completed work was shelved, never to see the light of day again, because the library licensing fees were so outrageous ($4800 for just little old me? what?)
I have looked at both GTK and Qt, and IMHO the Qt framework is more consistent and reasonably defined, and seems to port more easily to other operating systems. If you get the chance, browse through the class libraries at Trolltech.
But at these prices, Qt is almost, but not quite, worth it.
"Of course, if you're using KDE on Windows as a migration step towards KDE on Linux, once you move to Linux the WIN32 API disappears along with the windows apps."
Wow! There really are no drawbacks to using KDE on windows!
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I'm sorry, but I don't want my text to look blurry and/or have color fringing by assuming it can shift pixels between RGB triplets on an LCD. The days of the Apple II are long since behind us.
Before I get into this, let me say that I am a linux fan and use it for several servers I manage.
But....it is in no way shape or form, ready to conquer the desktop. Hell, it can't even copy and paste like a sane operating system should. Read other comments for details.
Since I don't use the windows managers on the Linux boxes I run, I guess I have never noticed this issue. Honestly, I thought it had been resolved but all you have to do is read the posts here and its clear that it has not been solved.
just a model.. Shhhh!
If religous zealots don't believe in Evolution, then why are they so worried about bird flu?
You mean its mythical and can never actually be found?
Life needs more saving throws.
The obvious solution to the different desires and needs of different users is configurability. Of course, if you throw too much configuration at a user, you end up with something that is impossible to use for simple configurations.
That problem has been solved already. Once upon a time, there was a graphical desktop system called...
I'm getting ahead of myself.
Suppose there was a way to, you know, show and hide configuration based on a user's needs? Call it a "difficulty setting" for the GUI. People who just want to go through the basics get some common templates for settings, and don't even see most of the configuration options. People who are slightly more sophisticated get another level of complexity; they can actually change the UI templates.
Power users get all kinds of details. They don't need templates any more; they create their own configurations per application. And finally, you have every potential configuration option in the universe visible and modifiable.
Once upon a time, there was a GUI that did this. it wasn't perfect; sometimes a level 1 user had to switch to level 2 to find just that one feature she needed. Sometimes a user had most of what she needed at level 3, but also a handful of things she wished she could do without. But even just giving her the option made her feel more empowered.
And it ran on 8-bit computers.
We don't need another digg.
Yeah i'm talking to you. The wannabe computer programmer who thinks they are good at computers because they can click around the computer enough times and find the reboot button and 'fix' an inherently flawed windows system. You think you're cool because you can pirate photoshop but not know anything about it, get Microsoft Office for free but have the literacy of a 1st grader when writing a paper, and get a copy of Norton Anti-virus because your inherently flawed system is useless without Administrative privileges. Get a clue, you are not smart, you are just a corporate sheep for a company that will bury you if you ever tried to write any software that did anything remotely useful. You are a clickaround and all you know if your ugly gray existence that is Windows.
/dev/random > Windows.com
Want the sourcecode to windows vista?
head -n 1000000
...will have support for composite and 3d effects built in. Beryl won't strictly be necessary for fancy Aero-blasting effects. Beryl probably won't exist in its current form by the time KDE 4 hits anyway.
The snapshot given in the article shows the same crappy, retarded default font which KDE has been using for at least five years.
You might say it's a minor issue, but nonetheless it is indicative of something. Why hasn't it been changed? It is those apparently-minor issues which contribute greatly to the initial reaction of new users. Retarded fonts give an unfinished and unprofessional impression, and new users are likely to dismiss the system right of the bat.
No doubt people will respond by saying, "just change the font." Of course, they will have missed my point entirely.
for me the perfect desktop is BlackBox, no cruft, no fancy stuff
and I lauch apps from an xterm
First things first, the article does explain the latest technology that KDE plans on implementing in 4.0, Dolphin. Which I'm glad to see that they are taking this approach because a single application trying to run the entire Desktop is not a good idea. I thought that the Linux community was out there to show everyone how things SHOULD be done and not simply imitate what others are doing. One of the biggest pitfalls of Windows was the fact that Explorer.exe and Iexplore.exe are practically the same application. In KDE Konqueror is trying to do the same; File-manager (not after they implement Dolphin), Internet Browser (Which crashes way too often to actually utilize), and everything else in between.
The Linux community needs to take a better approach if they want to be able to compete on the common users desktop. Ubuntu and Canonical are taking strides in the right direction by cutting deals with companies that will aide them in the process of competing in the desktop market. Ubuntu will implement Linspire's Click -n- run distribution system and Linspire will use Ubuntu instead of Debian as their base distribution of choice in Freespire and Linspire.
One of the biggest problems plaguing Linux in their efforts to make it on the common users desktop is software installation and updating. In windows its a very easy process they have learned over the years. Download the installer, double click the installer, and in moments you have installed the latest and greatest piece of spyware without even knowing you did anything wrong! Though I don't suggest users should install spyware, I do think that the process by which they install software is much simpler than in Linux. There are many dependencies which sometimes need to be hunted down before an application will work, and often times software is buggy.
One good thing though, is that companies do realize the potential of Linux on the desktop. Ahead for one is porting Nero to work in Linux, and I believe Adobe is porting Photoshop as well. (I could be wrong, don't slay me just yet). In any case, not all software must be open source in the world of Linux, but companies that sell proprietary software that will run in a Linux environment will benefit the open source community as well as the computing industry as a whole. People are realizing that a myopic perspective when dealing with computers is not the route to go. They are also realizing how similar Windows Vista is to HAL9000, as I recently discovered when using Vista for the first time on a clients laptop. "I'm afraid I can't let you do that..."
There's much to do... I suppose Dolphin is a step in the right direction. Ultimately, I think someone has to take a leap of faith and come up with an entirely new UI that will blow everyone out of the water. Maybe a mind-link function.... so you can just think about burning a CD and the application will open, and the CD-R/W drive will ejects it tray; Then again that could get messy quickly if your thoughts are impure.
Relocating to San Francisco / Palo Alto... Hire me?
Wish I'd thought of it. :)
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
Everyone makes these arguments about Gnome vs KDE and it gets so boring and repetitive.
I think the real difference is in the design philosophy of both.
KDE is more of an all-encompassing project, it seems. It is viewed as a tightly woven collection of pieces. There is a lib/program with K in its name for everything involving anything. The last time I tried using a KDE program, I had to download 50MB of support libraries.
Gnome seems more agnostic and less branded. Sometimes, this means less integrated. When there is a needed library, the Gnome people go off and write an agnostic library that can be utilized by anyone without compounding into 100 dependencies. They focus on generic API creation and orthogonal design, and then deal with integration later.
I think that's probably why Gnome is written in C rather than C++ as well, and why Miguel de Icaza is attracted to C# as a language. That's also why the KDE people settled for a GPL library and not an LGPL library.
From a developer's perspective, I prefer Gnome's methodology. I'd rather things be done 'right', in that orthogonal, reusable, generic fashion. Maybe it lacks some of the features, but that's the price I pay... GTK has more of the killer Linux apps like Gaim, Open Office, Mozilla, etc.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
Well, one mans bloat is another mans features.
And all those who complain about the wasted cycles. What are they doing with those cycles? Are they running something like F@H and feel that a few lost microseconds might affect the end result.
I just don't get it.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
I've been banging on about how great Linux is for years. A co worker installs Ubuntu, and Beryl, and immediately, people are interested in Linux because of the wobbly windows, and spinning cube.
People just want eye-candy. So if the best way to get people to use Linux is to make the desktop look excellent, then long live KDE, and Beryl. (I don't like Gnome though. Blech.)
Get your own free personal location tracker
Its the underlying structure and libraries that are really important.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I believe you misspelled "yawnnnnnn!" :)
Sorry, but I'm going to be a bit pedantic here.
You have described one clipboard (Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V), and it's the Mac way, not the Windows way. Macs originally implemented this with Cmd-C, Cmd-V (and -X, of course) because the Apple UI people were smart enough to realize that Ctrl-C and Ctrl-X already had some important (and somewhat dangerous [kill, cancel]) standardized meanings that shouldn't be messed with. Early PCs did not have a command key, so early Windows versions decided to copy this feature, but using the Ctrl key instead, and to hell with standards.
The Linux way you describe is actually an X11 feature that predates Linux (and probably Windows cut/paste), and it's not really a clipboard at all. Middle-click copies the "primary selection", not the clipboard. The distinction is lost on many (I said I was going to be pedantic...) but technically selections are a protocol for implementing clipboards. By default there is a primary, secondary, and a clipboard selection, and those can contain many separate buffers of data. (The xclipboard client lets you manipulate the clipboard buffers, if you're curious.) But middle-click in X doesn't hit the clipboard selection at all, but rather the primary selection. You can use this to copy/paste stuff without messing with the contents of your clipboard, which might doing more important things.
So X selections are really a superset of clipboards. As with everything in Unixland, this imparts a lot of power for those who have been initiated into its mysteries, but creates confusion in those who have not, and hostility in those who think the broken Windows way is the right way.
Does anyone know of a good site which has a listing of multi-platform applications? That is, a huge list of software which runs on both Win and Lin (and OS X)? Not only the obvious ones such as OpenOffice.org, AbiWord, Firefox, but also XnView, Acronis True Image, Google Earth, etc..
You can't develop closed-source applications with the QPL no matter what your license is.
BSD and LGPL allow closed source applications.
"Printers is still an issue for home users."
Perhaps at home, but if I may quote the President, "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream."
In that vein, I was home users am always hopes for prints, and the issue wing Linux dreams good.
I think KDE should be attacked by ninjas. Or giant squirrels. Or eaten by a bear.
I've never much cared for the bouncy mouse pointer. Which you can turn off. For that alone, ninjas.
Now wash your hands.
Is it really based on Qt 4.0, or is it on Qt 4.0.1, released just days later with critical bugfixes? Or is it Qt 4.2, which still doesn't (at least on Mac OS X) handle Unicode combining diacriticals correctly?
Disclaimer: I work for no one who could benefit from Qt's or KDE's not being the Holy Grail of Desktops. It just pissed me off that this priority 1 bug, supposedly scheduled to be fixed in Qt 4.1 was put off, and still wasn't fixed in 4.2.
And finally, snark aside, just to restate the question: is this thing really based on Qt 4.0, as the write-up says?
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
"That'd be the shell, Bob."
My complaint: You can't paste a copied image once you've closed the app you copied it from.
Your response: X works over a network.
Wha-huh?! Think you can explain what the hell the response has anything to do with the complaint? Maybe you should be condescending, you might make a little bit more sense.
You cleverly cut your own complaint, but you were actually complaining about the algorithm. To quote: " And yet, even with that experience, I can easily see how horribly flawed the Linux way of handling the clipboard is."
I cut out the whining, I can't stand the hypocritical nonsense anymore. I tried to help, and I am sorry I did.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.