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Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops?
An anonymous reader writes "With KDE 4.0 being expected some time this year, expectation runs high in the linux/unix users camp and the media read a lot between the lines of what the KDE developers say and do. In some ways KDE will provide a standard as to how a desktop should look and behave. This interesting article wonders whether KDE 4.0 will become the complete desktop which will meet the needs of a wide cross section of computer users. One of the common complaints that some Linux users have over KDE is that it is too cluttered. And by addressing this need without putting off the power users, the KDE developers could make it an all in one Desktop. Keep in mind that KDE 4.0 is based on Qt 4.0 and so can be easily ported to Windows and other OSes too which makes this thought doubly relevant."
Vista will be superior, ALWAYS
Why would you run another desktop on top of Windows? Wouldn't you take a performance hit for running two desktops, in essence?
http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
Why hasn't it been done, then?
The only thing that's "easy" is for non-programmers to say "well this toolkit is released for multiple OS's so it must be easy to port!"
Let me know when you got that working, k?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
... in 3D like pages in a Rolodex, then I'm not interested. (sarcasm off)
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Because if they did, they might notice that blog post talks more about Dolphin than anything else, and has virtually nothing to say about whether or not KDE 4.0 is the Holy Grail of desktops.
Hope they get some click-throughs from the traffic though.
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
No.
No it isn't.
I was briefly interested, but then I glanced at the screen shot, and nearly vomited from the ugliness.
Ever since Windows 3.1, and even today, you do not have to run "Explorer" as your desktop.
A lot of people don't realize this, but the whole of the windows "desktop" - the task bar, the icons, the menus, the right click on the desktop, all runs under a single instance of the "explorer" process.
Via the registry you can change your shell to anything - including the old progman.exe from Windows 3.1 if you have it lying around (heck it even shipped with Windows until Windows 2000). I have switched my shell to Afterstep many times.
There is no logical reason you couldn't switch to KDE as your desktop environment after it had all been ported to windows. It would not have any kind of a built-in performance hit.
I'm not quite sure what the parent is talking about... Highlight some text, go to another app and press the middle mouse button, and presto, copying has occurred. Am I missing something?
I kAgree.
Fixed.
Ok, I recently switched from Gnome to KDE 3.5 and really have no plans to go back, but saying something which isn't even close to finished is "most-bestest" would seem to be jumping the gun.
I'm sure we can find as many blog entries about how Vista is most-bestest, or Gnome, or Xfce. Of those, I'd only ever buy the Xfce argument but to each their own.
I also hope that this release will make KDE fonts look sharp, crisp and beautiful by default. It is unfortunate that many times, we in the Linux community have to seek Microsoft's help on fonts in order to have a desktop that is a pleasure to look at.
Hardly.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm a huge fan of KDE. KDE is the project that made me think "yes, I will eventually be able to learn to use Linux" -- that was back in its 1.0 days. Now I use Linux full time (I still consider myself a beginner though). KDE is a good desktop -- it's knaming konventions are a klittle kstrange, but it's still a good desktop that makes basic Linux use a lot easier while not actually preventing you from getting into the guts of everything. It's my desktop of choice (I use Kubuntu).
But the Holy Grail of Desktops? There is no such beast, and there are too many opinions about what such a beast would be. There are too many people who want too many different things in their desktop. For my part, I want to see some desktop incorporate all the OO elements from OS/2's Workplace Shell... I've yet to see it happen. That's my "Holy Grail," and I expect if it were ever implemented it would be anathema to someone else.
The very thought that it might be able to "meet the needs of a wide cross section of computer users" would automatically make it fail in the eyes of some. I know and have spoken with some usability nuts who claim that there is One True Path to usability, and anyone who wants to do things differently is simply doing things WRONG, and that they need to learn the One True Path and experience how much better it is. "Acommodation" would be a design flaw from that perspective.
All that aside, I'm looking forward to KDE 4. One thing I've come to expect from the KDE developers is that everytime they release a new version of KDE I wind up liking the new version significantly more than the older version, and I think that's the most realistic expectation you can hope to have about software...
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
Seriously. You can. CTRL-C and CTRL-V works just fine. Plus, you can normally just highlight and then middle-mouse click which is faster and *gasp* Windows doesn't do this. Think outside of the box?
Yes, you are. Though since I haven't used Linux as a desktop OS in awhile, I'm not sure if it's still an issue. Basically for a long time Linux had two different clipboards, some apps used one, some apps used another. So while what you describe worked 95% of the time, 5% of the time the two apps couldn't talk to each other via clipboard.
Pfft - my KDE desktop copies/pastes between all applications on Open Suse and Fedora. Plus, with the Klipper, I can paste things that I copied a while ago. I deem it superior.
I'm a student. I write iPhone apps.
It's ironic that you swear in the process of advising upon how to be taken seriously, in that your argument is subject to being automatically adjudged wanting for it's (unnecessary) inclusion of a low-grade shock tactic.
Please, bestow more sagacity upon us, I know I'm primed to receive after your first offering...
I can't imagine either. I just finished copy/paste-ing from a Windows VM in VMWare under Kubuntu to Kate, something I wasn't even sure was going to work. I copy/paste between any application I choose all the time, and the ONLY time I've had issues is when I'm running Windows as the native OS and try to paste into an app running across the network via cygwin.
I suppose that's why he's marked Troll so quickly.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
As far as I'm concerned, the perfect desktop is Windowmaker.
I use it on OpenBSd and Linux and it works nearly perfect.
I think he said that the "screenshot" is 3 different screenshots in the same image. I'm reading it and it doesn't seem to be sarcastic (yet).
I think I must have got the wrong article from that link. The one I read said that there may be a replacement for Konqueror called Dolphin but that Konqueror would still be available if people wanted it.
Was the one about KDE Being The Holy Grail Of The Modern Desktop anymore interesting ?
what-does-that-make-gnome-then
The Holy Hand Grenade
He means a copy paste functionality ala COM/Windows. Where you can copy and paste from any browser windows then paste it into any email client/word processor and keep the format. Or it can translate the data depending of the COM filter ..
... etc
... as they/we spend our whole life using computers only as tools not for development issues ... I am not working in programming anymore and my only issue with a comp that I have at the office is that it can sends emails, cut time spent in my daily tasks, and in my job, Windows is, for now, better suited for that.
It is quite nifty in an office environment to copy paste a screenshot, the content of a browser window, application data
You see, alot of people whose job is not IT related need these kind of functionalities
I am not a pro-windows guy nor a MS employee, refrain from modding me from what I stated above, which is only my own and personal opinion, and, you are, of course, allowed to disagree with me.
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
I think he might want to cut and paste with a highlight, right click, select copy, click on new location, right click, select paste. instead of highlight, and center click to paste.
KDE looks so tinker-toy with all its icons and crap.
Though, they both seem to have issues with me customizing them. Yeah, it's possible, but the options I want are always hidden in some gconfedit.cf.conf.1.3 bullcrap file somewhere.
I don't want a new window every time I click a folder. I like to store my files heirarchically, and nest directories. I don't see how this makes me a bad person. Don't bury the option to turn that shit off. It was annoying in Windows 3.1, it's just as annoying on a linux box.
And KDE really needs a "lite" checkbox somewhere, to turn off all the bling blang for those of who choose not to "keeps it real".
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What I don't understand is why they're saying Dolphin and Konqueror are the same thing.
Konqueror started out as a file manager, true, but KDE tacked on web browsing to it and then spent most of the time developing that aspect of it -- now it's really more of a web browser that does file management too, rather than a file manager on steroids.
With Dolphin they appear to have recognized this and are creating an application to focus on what Konqueror was originally intended to do in the first place. This isn't exactly the same as creating a beginner's app and a power-user's app...
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
Until KDE exhibits the following:
1. standardized operation for ALL applicatation.
2. cut and paste between ALL applications..
3. Applications must ALL be uniform in operation of common functions..
4. Uniform operation of input devices (mouse)..
5. Easily customizable..
6. Standardized behavour on any local or remote environment..
7. Some kind of direct video support (games, etc...).
And, don't tell me that these are all true. I have to use a linux GUI desktop and KDE is the best choice but lacks all of the above.
Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
I too have inferred two things namely:
1) You are an idiot.
2) Whoever submitted this is an idiot.
I'm actually a daily KDE user, so this isn't a rant.
I want linux to succeed as much as the next kde user but articles like this just set everyone's expectations way too high. There are issues that don't have much to do with KDE, but because that's what the average user sees, they may blame it on KDE. It's the ages-old hardware issues. Printers is still an issue for home users.
Beyond that, there are glaring holes in some of the applications. (print selection for example)
My personal wish is that some of the kde projects would focus on specific types of users. For example, I bet Law Office users have some needs that outlook doesn't do well instead of being a medium-slow follower. No, I'm not talking about an "exchange killer" because trying to eat a big part of exchanges market isn't likely. (not impossible, not likely)
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
Again? I've been hearing that this is the year of the Linux desktop since 1996!
it's time to change your 486
. . .does it run on Emacs?
You are not the customer.
Especially if you use fvwm2.
Then there is the g thingy.
NB: Desktop wars can be just as much fun a editor wars. vi fan.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
Right! They should behave like the serious folks in Microsoft calling everything with the full beautiful "Windows" before the app name instead of a little "K": Windows Mail, Windows Firewall, Windows Media Player. Or Apple, using a slick, minuscule "i" instead of a boasting "K": iPod, iTunes, etc. True, big companies really HAVE grown the fuck up!
[sarcasm mode off]-- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize
for exceptionally large values of 'year'
"In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
Good thing you can then.
As a current Linux user that mixes everyday Gnome, KDE, and desktop-agnostic apps at home and work, I can assure you the "clipboard hell" issue has been fixed long ago.
-- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize
It sure won't be the ultimate desktop without this. I use ubuntu (I know, gnome based) a lot, but the font rendering in linux drives me nuts.
BTW, cleartype costs about US$1 to licence per desktop.
Well, you can call it broken by design or working by design, but there are (last time I checked) two separate ways to use a clipboard. The Linux way that you just described (select and middle-click), or the Windows way (Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V). Those two are completely separate, you can't copy one way and paste the other. This can work one of four ways:
1. Disable Linux clipboard. Hell breaks loose.
2. Disable Windowsish clipboard. Hell breaks loose.
3. Merge clipboards. Hell breaks loose as Windows userrs have their clipboard contents "mysteriously" replaced.
4. Keep it as is and have slashdot trolls complain about the copy-paste system.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Yes, obviously it should be the Holy Krail. Someone might mistake it for a Gnome thing if it begun with a G.
It still seems to be there sometimes... at least I switched from konversation to xchat (on kubuntu) because konversation seemed to use its own clipboard, couldn't paste things from other sources in there, or paste things I copied on it on other sources.
I'm not sure about KDE, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about how there's not so much of a system clipboard as there is an application clip board with system level pointers. When I was a new Linux user I noted that I couldn't open Firefox, copy something, close Firefox, open another app and paste it. In order to paste between applications, both applications need to remain open.
I've gotten used to the behavior and it not longer causes be problems, but I know the behavior hasn't changed and that it still causes woes for new switchers.
For one, the KDE 4.0 development snapshots are using Qt 4.2, and by the time KDE 4.0 is released in a few months, Qt 4.3 will probably be released and used as well.
Another gripe is that KDE 4.0 is the base KDE 4 release; that is, it will contain the foundation for all KDE 4 applications along with its "core" applications all updated to use said base. KDE 4.0 (like KDE 3.0 and presumably 2.0 and 1.0; I'm not that old a Linux user sadly) will be more of a "proof of concept" release that updates all the KDE 3.5 applications to use Qt 4 along with the new "Pillars of KDE" (check the Dot for articles about it). However, it is expected that KOffice 2.0, Amarok 2.0, KDevelop 4.0, and several other key applications will be released with KDE 4.0, and those are major upgrades beside the typical updated usage of KDE libraries, Qt 4, and all the other things updated with KDE 4.
What I'm getting at here is that KDE 4.1 and beyond are the Holy Grails if anything; at this point, the developer interest in KDE should spike to above KDE 3 levels (especially due to the new platforms it supports: Windows and Mac OS X) and the new applications and innovations will begin. Just look at the major differences between KDE 3.5.6 and KDE 3.0 for example to see how much a major revision tends to change over time and include new programs. Basically, KDE 4.0 is the beginning of the quest for the Holy Grail (not to mention all the Python usage in some KDE distros like Kubuntu), but the Holy Grail itself will be a future release of KDE 4.
If you speak from a developer's standpoint, KDE 4.0 can be argued to be the Holy Grail, but not from the user's standpoint.
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
Personally, I find the defauly Windows XP GUI patronising and completely unusable - I much prefer the Windows "Classic" desktop, the only thing missing from it is a proper dual pane file manager that shows one directory in the left window, another in the right window and a number of easily accessible commands for working with files beneath each window (a la Midnight Commander or Directory Opus).
KDE is also nice but far too flashy and bloaty for a power user like me - given the choice between KDE and Gnome, I choose Gnome but even then with some reservations about the wasted screen real estate with Gnome.
But if I need a GUI enviroment that just allows me to have multiple shells or apps running, without too much need for filetype integration (so that when I double-click on, say, a JPEG image icon, a viewer application opens the image for me) then XFCE4 is a good compromise for usability and speed.
I can see *ABSOLUTELY NO NEED* for 3D file explorers on 3D desktops unless you simply want a fashion accessory just to show off to friends. Unless you use a PC for gaming (which admittedly I do quite a lot), then everything else you do on it is about productivity and using an application to get a job done quickly and easily - if any desktop effects do not make that productivity work any faster, then they are a complete and total waste of time.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
There is NO solution for everyone. So -I think- they are bypassing the "flexibility VS confusion" problem by building a desktop that basically has two possible interfaces: a "simple" one with simple apps and an "expert" one with complex apps. To each one for its needs. But keeping the same desktop and communication process behind, so that switching from Dolphin to Konqueror is not a revolution as switching from Gnome to KDE. You still use the same desktop, you just bring it to another level.
To me it seems damn clever. What's wrong with that?
-- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize
If you are a full-on Free Software advocate and only care about writing free/open source software, then I can see why KDE/Qt is usually the best choice. On the other hand, if you are interested in commercial development, like myself, you need to look at pricing as well. If you only want to develop for Windows, then the "SDK" is free and the "IDE" can range from free to a couple of grand with a premium MSDN subscription. But Qt itself costs around $1780 to $6600 on a per developer basis depending on console/GUI one/two/three platform development. If you work for a company with any clout, you can probably cut that cost in half for either platform.
Although I'm not doing anything now, the first thing I would use for a lean startup cross platform development is ACE with wxWidgets on Visual Studio Express or Eclipse with CDT.
It is just my opinion, but I think the pricing for Qt is too high. I wonder how big the Linux Desktop "pie" could grow if we could all settle on Qt if it fell under LGPL or BSD? Trolltech's smaller piece of a bigger pie, might still be bigger than the one they have now. Putting GPL/Free Software asisde for a second, from a commercial perspective, I don't want a "new Microsoft" on the Linux Desktop. Perhaps someone with some cash could revive the Harmony Toolkit...
Unix Socket, general Sockets, Signals, IPC, Process control, File locking, fine control over FileIO, etc.
Yeah, they operate in similar ways except in all the parts that make life difficult porting, which MS has seen to it, that it is some of the most important parts.
IOW, they are nothing alike and it requires quite a bit of work to port from any OS to Window. It is even easier to port from Unix to VMS or Unix to MVS since they both support POSIX beyond the first level.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
For instance halflife.exe is a good shell for windows.
©God
not until it starts to look more like gnome and less like an explosion in a widget factory.
OHHHHHH
flame on.
[Sorry for the bad formatting, this is the same thing again. That'll teach me to use preview first.]
As current Linux user that mixes everyday Gnome, KDE, and desktop-agnostic apps at home and work, I can assure you the "clipboard hell" issue has not been fixed at all. And I'm not anti-Linux trolling, I'm a Debian fan and used to be a package maintainer there. But you should be able to admit where Linux is just weaker than Windows or OS X.
Here's an extract of the various "clipboards" or "yank buffers" or whatever they're called I deal with on a daily basis:
- The venerable X11 buffer - select and middle click. This works great BUT if you happen to select something by mistake whatever you had in the clipboard before has gone. This is especially annoying if you select a link from somewhere and want to *replace* the URL in the address bar of Firefox. What you intuitevely do is the following:
1. Select the link in some program
2. Alt-Tab to Firefox
3. Select the link currently in the location bar (in order to replace it)
4. You just lost because the second selection replaced the first.
- Then there is the Gnome Clipboard (I believe that's what it is called). This is the Control-C, Control-V clipboard which works like in Windows - with one subtle difference. If you close the program you have cut/copied from, the content of the clipboard is *gone*.
1. Select and copy some text in some program
2. Close the program
3. You just lost
- Then there is the vim yank buffer. Yes, you can have multiple yank buffers and probably program them and whatever. But it is totally separate from the other clipboards. Vim even stores it when you close and restart vim. Thus you can:
1. Open vim, yank some text (that's "copy" for non-vimmers)
2. Reboot your machine
3. Log in from another machine with ssh
4. Paste it back. You win!
BUT of course it doesn't work across multiple concurrently running instances of vim. Don't tell me that I should use only one vim for multiple files and splits and all that crap. I want to be able to yank and paste across vims. Which you can't.
And if you use gvim (the vim with gui) then pasting from the Gnome clipboard is as easy as...pressing (no joke)
ESC : " g P
They must be out of their mind.
- And then there's the Emacs buffers (I believe it's called the "buffer ring" or something like that) which are again similar to the ones in vim. I hope I don't offend any emacs users here since I'm not that familiar with it, but I know that they are again incompatible with everything else.
What Linux needs is ONE universal clipboard. Just ONE. It shouldn't be part of Gnome, KDE, Xfce or even X11. It should be a system service. So you can copy and paste LIKE A SANE PERSON in ALL PROGRAMS. Just like on Windows. Or a Mac.
You could throw in persistence across reboots. And maybe across different sessions (say, local X11 and remote SSH). Then it would even be better than everything else. I'm actually thinking of implementing something like that - maybe even with X11 and Gnome clipboard bindings to "unify" them finally.
There should *definitely not* be multiple buffers, rings and crap like that. 99% of the time they are just confusing.
If a program *really* needs multiple buffers - and most do not - they could still implement that ON TOP of the universal clipboard. It's ok if *that* is not compatible across programs.
Greetings from one who loves, and loves to works with Linux but just *HATES* its clipboard functionality.
Konqueror as a file manager is the single thing I miss most when running WinXP. The ability to have a shell open (and follow dir changes as I navigate); simple multiple screen splitting; it is a joy. QT is well designed, and KParts are sweet, but in terms of use Konqueror is why I switched from Gnome.
There is no holy grail, that's why there are many other window managers out there in wide use. You might as well ask if Ubuntu is the "Holy Grail" of Linux.
I personally can't stand KDE. I have the libraries installed because of one application that just works easier than other alternative I've found (k3b) but that's it, and I don't run it all that often. I run Gnome (vanilla Ubuntu) but since I've got to wipe that computer for other reasons, I'm going to be installing Xubuntu, because Gnome, like KDE, has a bunch of bloat, both from a visual design and code perspective, I just have found Gnome less bad. XFCE is darn close to my Holy Grail as far as window managers go, but that doesn't work for my father, who will be running MacOS X until his dying day, because he loves it, or my girlfriend who still uses Enlightenment e17 and is EXTREMELY touchy when anyone suggests that she try something newer.
This kind of religious evangelism from the KDE community over a window manager turns off an awful lot of people. Yes, there are an awful lot of people that find that KDE is a wonderful desktop for them. Awesome. However, there are an awful lot of people that don't like it, too. Gnome didn't pay off Sun Microsystems, Canonical, or Red Hat so their window manager could be made the default. Acting like the Flying Spagetti Monster wants KDE to be on everyone's desktop just makes you look like jerks.
Is KDE 4.0 the Holy Grail of Desktops?
<flamebait type="religious">No. KDE4 isn't vaporware which makes a lot of promises but is nowhere to be found.</flamebait>
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Very informative, but some line breaks would be nice.
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
This interesting article wonders whether KDE 4.0 will become the complete desktop
Does it also dream of electric sheep?
Have you read my journal today?
It's called Pavlov experiment. You may know it under the name of Classical conditioning learning. Very useful stuff.
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
"as someone with a Microsoft Office Word Expert cert, ABIWord feels most comfortable"
Wow man, I bet you're a real hit with the ladies :)
THE HONOUR OF THE KNIGHTS - CC Licensed Sci-Fi Novel
- The venerable X11 buffer - select and middle click. This works great BUT if you happen to select something by mistake whatever you had in the clipboard before has gone. This is especially annoying if you select a link from somewhere and want to *replace* the URL in the address bar of Firefox.
That's intended behaviour, not a bug. Select = copy. Middle click = paste. How do you think the clipboard can know that the *second* selection is not a copy?
- Then there is the Gnome Clipboard (I believe that's what it is called). This is the Control-C, Control-V clipboard which works like in Windows - with one subtle difference. If you close the program you have cut/copied from, the content of the clipboard is *gone*.
I heard of this bug, and it *is* a bug, but what the hell is the purpose of closing a program after you copied info from that? It's a sane measure to wait until you pasted, just to check if you copied-and-pasted what you really wanted to paste, for example. Yes, it's formally a bug, and I agree it has to be fixed (it makes sense to have the intact clipboard if the ctrl-c app crashes, for example) but every sane user should almost never have seen it.
As for emacs and vim, I don't use them, so I trust you about the issues.
What Linux needs is ONE universal clipboard. Just ONE. It shouldn't be part of Gnome, KDE, Xfce or even X11. It should be a system service. So you can copy and paste LIKE A SANE PERSON in ALL PROGRAMS. Just like on Windows. Or a Mac. You could throw in persistence across reboots. And maybe across different sessions (say, local X11 and remote SSH). Then it would even be better than everything else. I'm actually thinking of implementing something like that - maybe even with X11 and Gnome clipboard bindings to "unify" them finally.
Ok, I surely agree with that and it would be damn cool. It would be really good. What I'm saying may be corrected this way: today, for Joe User using mostly desktop apps, the issue is practically solved. But I endorse what you say.
-- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize
How about the ability to copy one line, move elsewhere, select some other text, and when you paste, the selected text gets overwritten with the original selection? Using your method, you lose the first clipboard when you select the second batch of text. No, it's not *essential* to work this way, but once you're used it it, it's damn handy.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Hey, do the Gnome devs know you managed to find your way to the web browser? Don't tell them or they'll take it away from you.
Ooooh, snap!
I agree that that's intended behavior, and it was great back in the time when the only thing you would copy/paste around was command lines from and to different terminals. But the desktops have changed since then; I find myself (and observe other people) doing this kind of thing a *lot*:
- Copy something
- Do some other editing, possibly with selecting things, e.g. deleting some text
- Paste
And the select/middle click model just doesn't work for that. I'm not complaining about bugs here, but about bad design.
Well, suppose you're editing some text. Then you think "oh I'd like to paste something from another file in here". So you open the other file - possibly in another editor, or a browser, or whatever - copy a sentence or maybe just a single word or number - close the program and...do it again. It's of course not a good idea to use the clipboard as "storage for otherwise non-existent data" because it's just too easy to lose. But the behavior many Linux desktops expose nowadays is just plain user-unfriendly.
This makes me wonder though. I'm not a linux pro nor have I been nominated for the "Master of teh shells![tm]" award at any time, but if you can get KDE running as a Windows Desktop replacement, would beryl run on top of that ported KDE instance too? This would be a nice Aero replacement that has no "Vista and a uber-performance computer" only restriction.
Whereas KDE policy is "If you disKover some empty spaKe, add an useless feature or somethinK very very irritatinK. The iKon must be shiny, rotatinK, and Kontain at least one K.", the GNOME policy is the opposite: "If you find a feature, it might confuse a user, so remove it." [1]
Dynamic binding defeats CPU branch prediction regardless of how it's implemented -- if the target of a jump instruction is taken from a pointer whose value is determined at run-time, rather than compiled into the program, it can't be predicted. Ordinary C structures containing function pointers, like GNOME uses, work the same way. This isn't a problem with C++ virtual functions; it's just that current processors aren't able to accelerate a certain technique that's often used in modern software design.
As for the extraneous symbols, GCC 4.0 introduced some facilities for suppressing them, and I'm pretty sure KDE uses them now, so that should no longer be an issue.
My only real issue with KDE's programming environment is that they don't use standard C++; they use a variant of C++ that's "enhanced" with syntactic support for signals and slots, and the code gets preprocessed into standard C++ at build time. That's a bit ugly.
The kind of Slashdot topics are always entertaining and generate lots of activity. they have ever since the first "X versus Y" arguments were made and are the preferred intellectual geek sport. My inner geek wants a say, so here it is.
X11 is a wonderful "desktop". You can decorate it any way you want with Gnome or KDE or many other excellent window managers and desktop environments that all server different needs and are highly customizable. Just take your pick and expend a little effort and your GUI desktop becomes your servant, supporting your productivity and enjoyment. Do we want just one way? Hell no!
If there is and "Holy Grail" in computing, it is the design of applications to be as platform and OS agnostic as possible. There are many technical reasons why a particular piece of hardware is the best for a job or a particular OS is the best for a job or a particular app is best, but no hardware/OS/app is useful universally and diversity will encourage innovation and provide more and better choice.
The real threat is that the hardware/OS/app thing is used in an anti-competitive way for vendor lock-in; that just mucks things up and rarely results in anything good for the end user. From hardware manufacturers to OS vendors to software developers, those who ply their craft and ignore standards and interoperability should be exposed and ridiculed and shunned. The tolerance for pushing out crap should be reduced. Best practices should be the hallmark of everyone if we want things to get better, because the "Best Practices versus Ass" arguments is mercifully short. We can argue all day over Best Practices, but at least that keeps us headed in the right direction all the time.
After all, it's the quest for the Holy Grail that's important, not the Grail itself.
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
I agree that Konqueror is an extremely capable file manager, but Konqueror the application is thought of primarily as a browser these days...
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
Hear hear! I've been using KDE for years, and every once in a while I experiment with Gnome. I like it, but the lack of some utility (quick and simple file operations across SFTP / SMB / local filesystems using Konqueror springs immediately to mind here) always sends me back to KDE. But I will give Gnome some credit: their desktop looks extremely nice, and seems particularly suited to new users. Yes, I can't stand the way Nautilus deals with remote filesystems compared to the simple address bar in Konqueror, but Gnome's default themes are smooth and uncluttered. I feel much more comfortable looking at a default Gnome desktop than a KDE one.
The Dolphin screenshot in TFA still looks cluttered to me, like a window with too many panes and toolbars to worry about. A smoother default theme could really remedy that.
... in Soviet Russia!
Tyranny isn't the worst enemy of a democracy. Cynicism is.
You should use Total Commander, which is a la Midnight Commander (or Norton Commander if you prefer, it was the first). It has a lot of functionality, integrated ftp client, you can unpack archives etc. You can download a fully functional trial version to try it.
I run into this madness a lot when I'm switching browsers. It's an old habit, copy address bar. Close browser "f", open browser "o", click in address bar and [ctrl+v], swear and repeat.
"He may be mad, but there's method in his madness. [...] It's what drives men mad, being methodical." G.K.Chesterton
KDE ressembles more and more quartz-wm/OS X.
Most screenshots really make it look like a girl with too much makeup.
But wow I like that System Monitor. Just seeing that CPU load drop with that cool transparent effect really turns me on!
And Kate, oh she's a beaut'!
Last thing: people who are going to install KDE just to play KMahjong might be interested to know we've got lots of lonely-geek games like that on OS X.
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
I love KDE but it is not the "Holy Grail!"
:)
If you have read the Da Vinci Code, then wouldn't the "Holy Grail" be Linus's daughter, Patricia Miranda Torvalds?
QT4 is GPL'd, numbshit.
/., so any idiot who talks like he knows something will get modded up.
Sigh, it's
Hear hear! I've been using KDE for years, and every once in a while I experiment with Gnome. I like it, but the lack of some utility (quick and simple file operations across SFTP / SMB / local filesystems using Konqueror springs immediately to mind here) always sends me back to KDE
You know, there's no need to use KDE to use Konqueror. I use Konqueror with Fluxbox, for Chrissakes.
2. Alt-Tab to Firefox
3. Select the link currently in the location bar (in order to replace it)
4. You just lost because the second selection replaced the first. There's no need to paste the address into the location bar -- just middle-click somewhere in a browser tab, and it will load the page. If you hold down Ctrl while you paste, it will open a new tab. IMO this is a perfect example how X11's clipboard logic is way superior to the logic on Macs and Windows.
On Windows I have two additional steps:
1'. Ctrl-C to copy the selected text into the clipboard
3. either Ctrl-L into the location bar or Ctrl-T open a new tab
3'. Ctrl-V the address into the location bar
PROS:
I had it up, running and debugged in six weeks. I had never seen the Qt library before in my life. That is how quick the Qt Framework is to learn and deploy.
CONS:
The completed work was shelved, never to see the light of day again, because the library licensing fees were so outrageous ($4800 for just little old me? what?)
I have looked at both GTK and Qt, and IMHO the Qt framework is more consistent and reasonably defined, and seems to port more easily to other operating systems. If you get the chance, browse through the class libraries at Trolltech.
But at these prices, Qt is almost, but not quite, worth it.
I agree with most of what you say. The clipboard behaviour would benefit from some standardisation across applications but there is another issue at hand.
I'll state it using Emacs as an example since I'm am Emacs user. The kill-ring which allows you to yank multiple pieces of text and paste them back is quite useful when you're coding. It allows you to move around chunks of code quite easily. I'd like some subset of Emacs' kill/yank behaviour to interact with the graphical subsystem to provide consistent behaviour but inside Emacs when I'm developing, I'd like the custom behaviour since it's quite useful when I code. I think vim users will have similar concerns.
There is no clipboard in X. There are only copy requests and a selection mechanism. Clipboards can (and are) implemented using a daemon like Klipper.
Try Krusader. Dual pain MC like file management chock full of KDE goodness. Best File Manager Ever.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
This is definitely true, but it doesn't have to be as big a problem as it is now.
Because non-GPL developers can't use QT without paying, KDE needs to work harder to intergrate with apps built without QT. That doesn't mean the GNOME folks shouldn't be working just as hard at this, but at least they can say that anyone can build free or non-free apps with their toolkit. In theory, they'll never have to 'build everything themselves' as KDE seems to be trying to do. And I prefer KDE, by the way.
I recently spent about an hour getting kaffeine to be the default video player everywhere in my Mandriva 2007 system. Had to set it separately in Konqueror, Firefox and whatever GNOME app Firefox uses to 'display containing folder' from it's download window. And in each of those cases, I had to navigate to kaffeine using a completely different file navigation tool. First of all, there's no need for separate file type mappings in these apps (except that the underlying toolkits have each seen fit to build their registries for this kind of info instead of cooperating). This should be the easiest of interoperability issues to solve - just use the same data structures to hold the info and keep your separate API's if you want. Then you get to the more complex issue of file navigation. Ideally all toolkits should use the 'current desktop's' dialogs for this - or agree to make them all work the same.
None of this is KDE's fault per se, but because of the QT issue, I think KDE has a greater responsibility to get toolkit interoperability working. I'm sure there are ongoing efforts in this direction, but I don't know if it's a top priority item at this point. It should be. If Linux desktops are ever going to support third-party apps, the desktop toolkits need to get their feature sets established and start freezing ABI's (or at least figure out how to easily support apps targeted at older ABI's). It's all well and good to have KDE and GNOME attempt to cover all the app bases, but except for certain limited use cases, that's just not practical.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Don't think of the first one as copy/paste. Think of it as a text drag and drop... a bonus given to you by linux, rather than a replacement for the copy/paste you're used to. If what you want to do is replace a URL, you can just do it the same way you would in windows:
1. Select the link in some program, C-c to copy
2. Alt-Tab to Firefox
3. Select the link currently in the location bar (in order to replace it)
4. C-v to paste
You call it a bug, I call it a feature. People make the same complaint about the Linux kernel, GNU readline, and so on. If you want a proprietary-friendly OS, go use Windows or OS X.
Though it would have been nice if the effort expended on GNOME had instead been expended on a BSD-licensed Qt replacement... Or improving OpenStep... or pretty much anything except developing a third desktop environment and stuffing it with Microsoft patented technology.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Wow. That entire clipboard analysis flew right over your head.
It doesn't matter if something is implemented as intended or not.
If I attempt to do something right, and I do it wrong, the result is wrong.
If I attempt to do something wrong, and I succeed in doing it wrong, the result is wrong.
If cooperation among different groups is required for something to be done right, but these groups do not cooperate, the result is wrong.
Your bit about "every user would keep both apps open when copying, just to be safe" demonstrates a fundamental misconception about how the human brain thinks. I would imagine any interface you design would be a disaster. Your mind has been so affected by years of working with badly-designed software that you can't even imagine how everyone else thinks. Don't ever EVER attempt to design a HCI. You're damaged goods.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
You, sir, are 100% correct, and this issue should be pointed out more.
Qt - and hence KDE - is based on the idea that you can either develop using one of two FOSS licenses (GPL, QPL), or you have to pay the nice people at Trolltech. Note that even other FOSS licenses are in a bind here - the issue isn't just with proprietary software. Both a proprietary app and a BSD-licensed one (for example) would not be able to use the GPL/QPL option. They would have to pay Trolltech. This may be an option for the proprietary app, but it is not an option for the BSD one.
BSD, as mentioned, is just one example - any non-GPL and non-QPL FOSS license has this problem. I have, by the way, no problem with Trolltech making money. Just not in this way. This is a situation of "use our 2 approved FOSS licenses, or none at all". Not exactly in line with general FOSS principles.
GTK+ is LGPL, which is an excellent choice of license for what GTK+ is. Qt would be better off to do the same.
To summarize, and make it perfectly clear: the licensing issues with Qt are not over, despite what many say.
Well in that case, you have no problem. Qt for X11 is available under the QPL, which permits applications to use a range of free software licenses, including the LGPL and BSD-style.
Guess you'll be switching now then?
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Konqueror is part of KDE, you cannot use Konqueror without using KDE. Yes, you can use Konqueror without using KWin, the KDE Window Manager. You are comparing window manager (Fluxbox) with a suite of desktop applications (KDE). Not a good comparison.
I think it's great.
They are modern day Robin Hoods, except legal!
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
I think the whole thing is pretty k-lame, and it really needs a better, more k-wRad alternative.
That enhanced C++ that you deride are the Qt extensions, which are what make it even remotely possible to have K* applications on other operating systems. I wouldn't knock it too much until you've tried it.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
No, it's a perfect example of one application's method of using the X11 clipboard logic.
The parent to your reply still has a point: sometimes a person has to first select the text that they intend replace with text from the clipboard.
That middle-clicking a tab to paste behavior always throws me off when I use Firefox on Linux. I'm used to using middle-click to CLOSE a tab, not paste to it.
My only real issue with KDE's programming environment is that they don't use standard C++; they use a variant of C++ that's "enhanced" with syntactic support for signals and slots, and the code gets preprocessed into standard C++ at build time. That's a bit ugly.
Depends on how you look at it. Before preprocessing signals and slots are one of the cutest things I've ever seen in C++ -- and saying 'cute' and 'C++' in one sentence is certainly not usual for me. (Python is my weapon of choice, to put some background here.)
just a model.. Shhhh!
If religous zealots don't believe in Evolution, then why are they so worried about bird flu?
You mean its mythical and can never actually be found?
Life needs more saving throws.
You're missing the original issue. It used to be that ctrl-c/ctrl-v didn't work across different apps. It has supposedly since been fixed. End of story.
That was a long rant. Anyway, you might want to check out Klipper, which fixes all that except the network thing and vim integration... the latter being a vim problem, I'd say, xemacs works as expected. You have to configure it correctly to get the behaviour you want... Wild guess would be synchronize, keep 200 items in your case, prevent empty clipboard. If the popup on links etc annoys you, you might want to disable action.
Problem solved :)
PS: You are wrong about the Gnome keyboard, that is an X feature. It is called PRIMARY clipboard, if I recall correctly. (The other one is SELECTION, I think).
P.P.S: Those that really want it like windows might want to disable sync, hit "ignore selection", set the history to 1, hit "prevent empty clipboard" and disable actions.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
The obvious solution to the different desires and needs of different users is configurability. Of course, if you throw too much configuration at a user, you end up with something that is impossible to use for simple configurations.
That problem has been solved already. Once upon a time, there was a graphical desktop system called...
I'm getting ahead of myself.
Suppose there was a way to, you know, show and hide configuration based on a user's needs? Call it a "difficulty setting" for the GUI. People who just want to go through the basics get some common templates for settings, and don't even see most of the configuration options. People who are slightly more sophisticated get another level of complexity; they can actually change the UI templates.
Power users get all kinds of details. They don't need templates any more; they create their own configurations per application. And finally, you have every potential configuration option in the universe visible and modifiable.
Once upon a time, there was a GUI that did this. it wasn't perfect; sometimes a level 1 user had to switch to level 2 to find just that one feature she needed. Sometimes a user had most of what she needed at level 3, but also a handful of things she wished she could do without. But even just giving her the option made her feel more empowered.
And it ran on 8-bit computers.
Give this man vodka, for he speaks the Truth.
Seriously, some kind of a clipboard daemon and a simple yet powerful libclipboard with assorted APIs would be great.
Nothing to do with C++, indirect calling does that... which you have to explicitly state if you want it in C++ (the virtual keyword). And C++'s killer feature, templates, makes thing go faster in some cases... qsort is only half the speed of std::sort for this reason.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
Just out of curiosity, where does it say you can use other licenses? I only see the following:
It's /. Nobody reads the articles, why should I start reading posts?
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
I made and maintain a small app for FreeBSD that uses the PyQt/PyKDE bindings for its GUI. PyQt is licensed the same way as Qt (there is a commercial PyQt3 for windows BTW). I released my code under BSDL (including GUI stuff) and that's just fine. I supply all source code and I'm not responsible for what anyone else does with it. It's up to the next guy to comply with the GPL. It's my understanding that if he doesn't want to release any sourcecode (my non GUI modules are fair game anyway of course) he either has to buy a license or don't re-use the GUI.
But I am never forced to put a GPL on my code. The GPL is not *that* viral. I have to comply with it (for the GUI part) and I do. And yes, I actually asked them about this when, as of Qt4, the "noncommercial" QPL disappeared and so I had to decide what to make of the stern ("it must be GPL'd") wording. Mrs Legal Dept actually confirmed that what I did was allowed because I was complying with the GPL terms. It seems to me that the language they use on their site is basically a simplification, rather than malice or bluff.
Dude, its cool to use what works for you but, those are absolutely ancient.
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
Well the old X copy and paste shouldn't really be considered as the official copy and paste, just as something that's useful from time to time. Like say someone posts a url without linkifying it. I just select it, hit ctrl-t to open a new tab and middle click the URL bar and press enter. Or if there is a variable name I want to copy to a bunch of different places, I can just select it and middle click all the places I want the name to go.
If you don't like the quirkiness of the X style copy and paste, just don't use it. You can just use ctrl-c and ctrl-v and you'll always get the expected behaviour. You can consider the X style copy and paste either as deprecated behaviour or as a shortcut.
The snapshot given in the article shows the same crappy, retarded default font which KDE has been using for at least five years.
You might say it's a minor issue, but nonetheless it is indicative of something. Why hasn't it been changed? It is those apparently-minor issues which contribute greatly to the initial reaction of new users. Retarded fonts give an unfinished and unprofessional impression, and new users are likely to dismiss the system right of the bat.
No doubt people will respond by saying, "just change the font." Of course, they will have missed my point entirely.
You can also middle-click in the area where the page is displayed, so you can escape the confusion. If your hands are not glued to the moused, the fastest way to close a tab is Ctrl-W.
It's a perfect example of using X11's clipboard logic, and it's not possible to do something similar with Windows' clipboard logic. Hence the X11 logic is superior. I'm rarely replacing text by other text from the clipboard, so that argument doesn't do it for me. Anyway, text should be edited in a text editor using a keyboard, and they offer much better functionality for this than could be offered in a point & click interface anyway :-)
If we're going to have a "universal" clipboard, I'd want it to work in BSD and OS X (GUI and command-line) and Cygwin and Windows too. Therefore, even being a system service isn't enough; it needs to be part of POSIX!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I middle-click the page to turn on autoscrolling...
You're quite right, and I've popped Konqueror open on Gnome before. But it doesn't feel as nicely integrated in my experience. So while it's available to anyone with Qt, it's also kept me on KDE.
Section 6:
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
It may sound strange but konqueror may be best described as a Kparts viewer. Mostly khtml parts of course. Not sure if there's a kfm part or if the file managing got folded into konq's core when kde2 got started. I expect that sooner or later it will simply be able to embed a dolphin part. Probably the kfm legacy stuff will have its days numbered.
Which one are you talking about ? There are three screenshots in that blog post.
Mada mada dane.
This isn't a feature. There are very good reasons why both the Linux kernel and GTK+ allow non-GPL apps to use them. This allows proprietary apps, but it also allows non-GPL FOSS apps as well. And this is one reason why the Linux kernel is so successful, and likewise GTK+. Qt is holding itself back with this licensing issue.
Why the hell does ignorance get modded up these days? You are confused because you expect X11 to work the same as Windows or MacOS. It doesn't. Get over it.
X11 has and always has had two clipboards, short term (highlight/middle click) and long term (^C/^V). The "gnome" clipboard as you call is is just the X11 long term clipboard. And guess what? Firefox supports it, so you can ^C, ^V in to the address bar if you wish. I guess you never tried that SINCE IT WORKS FINE. Or, you can go the shor term route and simply middle click in the window. And that all works with KDE programs too. And vim, and ooffice and abiword and indeed any program which has a reasonable implementation of the now ancient and well understood ICCCM protocol for copy/paste.
As for the "closing the program" problems, this one is solved to. Run a clipboard manager and it will save the contents for you. For those of us who don't wish this to be the case, we don't have to run it.
I don't get your point about vim. The X11 clipboards are just named buffers like its own internal named buffers.
Anyway, linux has one universal working clipboard mechanism and it's called X11. Just like any system, it works between all programs that obey the protocol correctly. And X11 presents two standard clipboards, which I like. In fact, I prefer it to the single clipboard system you seem to want. And really, its only confusing because you expect X11 to behave like windows. Well it doesn't. For me, I find Windows and MacOS confusing because they don't behave like X11.
Anyway, here are the points to take away from this:
1 Copy and paste on X11 works.
2 Don't expect it to be Windows/MacOS, because it isn't.
3 Copy and paste on X11 works (I'll repeat this since no-one here seems to have a clue).
4 I'll repeat this one again, since people are really stubborn about this one: It's X11, not Windows!!!!!
SJW n. One who posts facts.
First things first, the article does explain the latest technology that KDE plans on implementing in 4.0, Dolphin. Which I'm glad to see that they are taking this approach because a single application trying to run the entire Desktop is not a good idea. I thought that the Linux community was out there to show everyone how things SHOULD be done and not simply imitate what others are doing. One of the biggest pitfalls of Windows was the fact that Explorer.exe and Iexplore.exe are practically the same application. In KDE Konqueror is trying to do the same; File-manager (not after they implement Dolphin), Internet Browser (Which crashes way too often to actually utilize), and everything else in between.
The Linux community needs to take a better approach if they want to be able to compete on the common users desktop. Ubuntu and Canonical are taking strides in the right direction by cutting deals with companies that will aide them in the process of competing in the desktop market. Ubuntu will implement Linspire's Click -n- run distribution system and Linspire will use Ubuntu instead of Debian as their base distribution of choice in Freespire and Linspire.
One of the biggest problems plaguing Linux in their efforts to make it on the common users desktop is software installation and updating. In windows its a very easy process they have learned over the years. Download the installer, double click the installer, and in moments you have installed the latest and greatest piece of spyware without even knowing you did anything wrong! Though I don't suggest users should install spyware, I do think that the process by which they install software is much simpler than in Linux. There are many dependencies which sometimes need to be hunted down before an application will work, and often times software is buggy.
One good thing though, is that companies do realize the potential of Linux on the desktop. Ahead for one is porting Nero to work in Linux, and I believe Adobe is porting Photoshop as well. (I could be wrong, don't slay me just yet). In any case, not all software must be open source in the world of Linux, but companies that sell proprietary software that will run in a Linux environment will benefit the open source community as well as the computing industry as a whole. People are realizing that a myopic perspective when dealing with computers is not the route to go. They are also realizing how similar Windows Vista is to HAL9000, as I recently discovered when using Vista for the first time on a clients laptop. "I'm afraid I can't let you do that..."
There's much to do... I suppose Dolphin is a step in the right direction. Ultimately, I think someone has to take a leap of faith and come up with an entirely new UI that will blow everyone out of the water. Maybe a mind-link function.... so you can just think about burning a CD and the application will open, and the CD-R/W drive will ejects it tray; Then again that could get messy quickly if your thoughts are impure.
Relocating to San Francisco / Palo Alto... Hire me?
strange. i'm using kde and konversation for years and i never had any problems with it.
:D
ok, besides the mixed keyboard and middle-mouse-button controlled clipboard confusion hitting me randomly but that effects every application
Dual "pain"?!?
If that wasn't intentional, it's... scary...
You know, Microsoft's street address also says a lot about their mentality.
Wish I'd thought of it. :)
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
Everyone makes these arguments about Gnome vs KDE and it gets so boring and repetitive.
I think the real difference is in the design philosophy of both.
KDE is more of an all-encompassing project, it seems. It is viewed as a tightly woven collection of pieces. There is a lib/program with K in its name for everything involving anything. The last time I tried using a KDE program, I had to download 50MB of support libraries.
Gnome seems more agnostic and less branded. Sometimes, this means less integrated. When there is a needed library, the Gnome people go off and write an agnostic library that can be utilized by anyone without compounding into 100 dependencies. They focus on generic API creation and orthogonal design, and then deal with integration later.
I think that's probably why Gnome is written in C rather than C++ as well, and why Miguel de Icaza is attracted to C# as a language. That's also why the KDE people settled for a GPL library and not an LGPL library.
From a developer's perspective, I prefer Gnome's methodology. I'd rather things be done 'right', in that orthogonal, reusable, generic fashion. Maybe it lacks some of the features, but that's the price I pay... GTK has more of the killer Linux apps like Gaim, Open Office, Mozilla, etc.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
Well, one mans bloat is another mans features.
And all those who complain about the wasted cycles. What are they doing with those cycles? Are they running something like F@H and feel that a few lost microseconds might affect the end result.
I just don't get it.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
I've been banging on about how great Linux is for years. A co worker installs Ubuntu, and Beryl, and immediately, people are interested in Linux because of the wobbly windows, and spinning cube.
People just want eye-candy. So if the best way to get people to use Linux is to make the desktop look excellent, then long live KDE, and Beryl. (I don't like Gnome though. Blech.)
Get your own free personal location tracker
Its the underlying structure and libraries that are really important.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
"Linux" doesn't have two clipboards; it has none. X on the other hand, has a PRIMARY selection, a SECONDARY selection (which everyone ignores), a CLIPBOARD selection, and 8 cut buffers (of which usually only the first is used). The "current selection" generally ends up in PRIMARY, and middle-click pastes from there; explicit cut/copy/paste operations use CLIPBOARD. If an app owns a textual selection and it wants to exit (or whatever) it will put its data into cut buffer 0, and a paste from CLIPBOARD will (generally) fall back to that. The problems a few years ago were that everybody didn't agree on these things, so if app X copies into somewhere that app Y doesn't paste from, you're screwed. But nowadays things are pretty uniform, and the "two clipboards" bit isn't a problem, it's just really nice. People who think it's scary can just do all their work with CLIPBOARD using the exact same methods they're used to with windows, and ignore PRIMARY.
I have no problem using windows-style behavior independently to linux style copy-paste (example with firefox can work with window shortcuts as long as it's between more recent toolkit apps). GTK and Qt programs seem to happily cooperate here this. Of course there are more traditional apps (Vim, Emacs, Console) and their communities find it hard to interact with rest of OSS realm, but for those applications unix-style universally works (as well as for the consoleDE cases and it isn't bd once you get used to it).
Maybe Linux is not at the level of interaction like in OSX where you can even drag'n'drop picture from firefox to powerpoint, but in fact at freedesktop.org there are descriptions which try to define such interfaces and they are even implemented in most popular DE's (although applications like Openoffice or firefox maybe don't follow enough of it). Portland is another project that tries to deal with this kind of stuff and bring in coherence, so there is ongoing progress in this area.
Qt is exactly like my other example, readline. You can write terminal-based apps without readline, just like you can write Linux GUI apps that run under KDE without Qt. However, in both cases their functionality is considerably reduced. That's a deliberate tradeoff you have to make if you want to make your software closed source. KDE at least gives you the option of paying money to get the benefits of the library without having to give people the freedoms they want.
And there are lots of companies who feel they can't develop for Linux because they can't ship a Linux kernel with proprietary binary drivers installed and then refuse people the source. So the kernel isn't as different as you seem to think.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
ESC : " g P
They must be out of their mind. No, if you use gvim, then pasting from the "GNOME clipboard" (there is no such thing, it's the X selection named CLIPBOARD and has not a goddamn thing to do with GNOME, now or ever) is as easy as Edit -> Paste. Why else would you use the GUI if not to use the GUI? And if you're not using gvim, it's still "+gP (or "+p if you're not picky where your cursor ends up). You don't have to be in gvim, you just have to have vim running in an xterm, and you don't have to use the completely bogus command that you pulled out of your ass because you misread what was on the menu and didn't even know enough vim to realize was completely senseless. (The only command-mode put command is
Only on slashdot do people get into a dozen pages worth of a conversation about copy-paste.
Wow =|
Btw, nice sig.
Sorry, but I'm going to be a bit pedantic here.
You have described one clipboard (Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V), and it's the Mac way, not the Windows way. Macs originally implemented this with Cmd-C, Cmd-V (and -X, of course) because the Apple UI people were smart enough to realize that Ctrl-C and Ctrl-X already had some important (and somewhat dangerous [kill, cancel]) standardized meanings that shouldn't be messed with. Early PCs did not have a command key, so early Windows versions decided to copy this feature, but using the Ctrl key instead, and to hell with standards.
The Linux way you describe is actually an X11 feature that predates Linux (and probably Windows cut/paste), and it's not really a clipboard at all. Middle-click copies the "primary selection", not the clipboard. The distinction is lost on many (I said I was going to be pedantic...) but technically selections are a protocol for implementing clipboards. By default there is a primary, secondary, and a clipboard selection, and those can contain many separate buffers of data. (The xclipboard client lets you manipulate the clipboard buffers, if you're curious.) But middle-click in X doesn't hit the clipboard selection at all, but rather the primary selection. You can use this to copy/paste stuff without messing with the contents of your clipboard, which might doing more important things.
So X selections are really a superset of clipboards. As with everything in Unixland, this imparts a lot of power for those who have been initiated into its mysteries, but creates confusion in those who have not, and hostility in those who think the broken Windows way is the right way.
Does anyone know of a good site which has a listing of multi-platform applications? That is, a huge list of software which runs on both Win and Lin (and OS X)? Not only the obvious ones such as OpenOffice.org, AbiWord, Firefox, but also XnView, Acronis True Image, Google Earth, etc..
KDE runs a clipboard manager that lets you do what you describe.
I can't drag an image from anything to PowerPoint, for lack of PowerPoint on my linux machine. I can, however, drag an image from Konqueror to OOImpress, and from Opera to OOImpress. Firefox "works"... except that instead of getting an image in my presentation, I get a text block containing REAL useful guys. But evidently Firefox's bug.
Addressed to several people who have replied to the parent post
Most of these responses give a truly informative overview of why so many non-*nix users (MS and Apple) think we are a bunch of snot nosed arrogant kids.
When a person makes a list of complaints, bogus or not (and his/hers are well composed compared to most complaints), that person and their complaints should be respected. You know what most of my clients have complained about linux the most? Not the roughness of the OS, but the roughness of the people they run into who claim to be linux people. I often wonder about the truth of the jokes about the average slashdotter working in a closet and living in their mom's basement when I read replies like these. Being mean accomplishes nothing but ill will. That keeps people from wanting to deal with linux or OSS at all.
If you want to sell linux to others, you have to be sellable yourself first. Most people do not follow the advice of someone who acts like a self-important dweeb. That is why most companies have such a large investment in their public image. Now, please invest in your own so that we may all more easily further the world's acceptance of linux.
Rant Off
-InnerWebFreud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
Um, since when have I not been able to do so?
I highlight whatever text (Firefox, Opera, Kate...) select CTRL+C, go to whatever app (Pan, Firefox, KMail...), press CTRL+V and it works.
Am I missing something?
The only place I find annoying is in the shell thingy where I have to do this obscure SHIFT+INSERT to paste.
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
"Printers is still an issue for home users."
Perhaps at home, but if I may quote the President, "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream."
In that vein, I was home users am always hopes for prints, and the issue wing Linux dreams good.
"Oh, and basic things like remembering window size and location. Konqueror, I'm talking to you. It also sucks that I have to remember how many windows I have open. Close-window is C-w, but if it's the last one, I have to C-q to quit. AarrgH!"
Go to Konqueror -> Settings -> Configure Shortcuts. Enter 'quit' or 'close' in the search box and you can set them to the same quick-key.
Well, I guess.. hell, for that matter why get rid of that old VAX system just when your getting use to it?
OP might check out WindowLab, if hes looking for a newer, smarter, WM with practically no system hit. (or maybe XFCE for a full, fast environment)
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
I had a really long reply but I lost it all because I double-right-clicked it out of emacs and then selected text while switching back to this window... damn you linux and your insane copy buffers! And you thought power failures were the only reasonable way to lose work...
Try Cream for Vim for clipboard smoothness:
There is no need to use a SlashDot sig for SEO...
I call bullshit. Semi technical people in my office use linux. They were typing shit out because they couldn't figure out how to paste in the terminal.
This works great -- most of the time. However, there are many occasions in which I am confronted with a URL that is "multiline" or needs edited in some way. Pretty common if you use mutt or use IRC in an xterm. In Windows it's actually not that bad to highlight, ALT-TAB, ALT-D, CTRL-V, then jump back and copy the remaninding bit and repeat. With this type of scenario, the middle-click-somewhere-in-the-browser method doesn't work and we're back with the original problem of wiping out your paste buffer accidentally. :-)
Not a huge deal; I've certainly gotten used to it, but each time it's still kind of annoying.
I think KDE should be attacked by ninjas. Or giant squirrels. Or eaten by a bear.
I've never much cared for the bouncy mouse pointer. Which you can turn off. For that alone, ninjas.
Now wash your hands.
Is it really based on Qt 4.0, or is it on Qt 4.0.1, released just days later with critical bugfixes? Or is it Qt 4.2, which still doesn't (at least on Mac OS X) handle Unicode combining diacriticals correctly?
Disclaimer: I work for no one who could benefit from Qt's or KDE's not being the Holy Grail of Desktops. It just pissed me off that this priority 1 bug, supposedly scheduled to be fixed in Qt 4.1 was put off, and still wasn't fixed in 4.2.
And finally, snark aside, just to restate the question: is this thing really based on Qt 4.0, as the write-up says?
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
That's because ctrl-c, ctrl-v, and ctrl-x were already reserved for other stuff, long before windows came on the scene. I rarely use Ctrl-V in linux, because it is easier to just select and then middle-click to paste.
Though I've never middle-clicked - well not since I was learning Unix on a SPARC 5 anyway - I can use the menu in Konsole to copy and paste. People often tell me that simply selecting something puts it in the clipboard - not true.
In any case, maybe I should just take advantage of the OSS-ness of Linux and add CTRL-C, CTRL-X, and CTRL-V into the borne shell or into Konqueror.
Sounds like a plan!
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
IMO this is a perfect example how X11's clipboard logic is way superior to the logic on Macs and Windows.
On Mac OS X, you can also drag and drop an URL (or any text string for the matter, but it has to be correctly formated) to a browser icon in the dock, and have it open in a new tab/new window. It can be handy.
X11 has and always has had two clipboards, short term (highlight/middle click) and long term (^C/^V). The "gnome" clipboard as you call is is just the X11 long term clipboard. And guess what? Firefox supports it, so you can ^C, ^V in to the address bar if you wish. I guess you never tried that SINCE IT WORKS FINE.
Except for the fact that many programs (notably, xterm) that don't support copying to it. Which makes that trick kind of useless in many applications.
I had to shorten it down quite a bit to get it within sig limits. It was supposed to be something like
Atheism is a religion in the same way as not collecting stamps is a hobby.I stand by that. As you say, strictly speaking you could be an atheist and superstitious (like believing in reincarnation), but most atheist are non-superstitious as well. Personally, I see no difference between monotheism or any other superstition.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
So you think before you use X11 copy-and-paste about whether you will need to select something else before you paste?
What a pain.
Here's an explanation of the X clipboard, the PRIMARY selection and the emacs kill-ring (whatever that is).
Just as a data point. gvim on Windows also requires "+p to paste from the system clipboard (or "*p).
That's wrong: You can use the BSD license for your own code, even when linking to Qt. Several KDE applications do this. You can also use a large number of other FOSS licenses. The QPL explicitely allows you to link to it from any FOSS license of your choice. Of course you cannot relicense Qt itself - just as you are not allowed to relicense Gtk+ to the BSD license.
You should also note that not every software license is LGPL-compatible. A standard EULA-style license, for example, is incompatible with clause 6 of the LGPL. The commercial Qt license, by contrast, does not force you to include specific terms in your proprietary license.
It is not difficult to write EULAs that are LGPL-compatible, but I strongly advise proprietary software vendors to double-check their software license with a lawyer if they link to Gtk+, kdelibs, or any other LGPL-licensed library. They almost certainly will run into serious legal issues otherwise.
I also strongly advise all free software advocates to focus on positive messages. Negative misinformation will make you and the libraries you advocate look bad. If you are convinced of the quality of the software you advocate, then you have no need to attack or to be afraid of other free software options.
> >X11 has and always has had two clipboards, short term (highlight/middle click)
> >and long term (^C/^V). The "gnome" clipboard as you call is is just the X11
> >long term clipboard. And guess what? Firefox supports it, so you can ^C, ^V
> >in to the address bar if you wish. I guess you never tried that SINCE IT WORKS > >FINE. Except for the fact that many programs (notably, xterm) that don't
> >support copying to it.
> Which makes that trick kind of useless in many applications.
And like many X bashers, you are WRONG. Read the XTerm manual. You can configure keys to copy text in to any clipboard. So you can do it with xterm.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Therefore, despite agreeing that what you said about the QPL is correct, essentially the matter is as I presented it earlier: Qt's licensing is far more restrictive than e.g. GTK+'s, and in ways that can cause actual problems for developers. Qt's licensing is holding it back, and that's a shame, because it is really very nice.
I agree with you that this page is very misleading. On the one hand, they say "under an open source license" rather than "under the GPL". The page should be clearer that other open source licenses are possible and will stay possible in the future. Advising people not use the QPL in their own code any more is OK, though.
Trolltech can drop neither the GPL nor the QPL from future Qt releases because they are both included the KDE Free Qt Foundation agreement. There have been plans, however, to replace the QPL+GPL dual license with a GPL with special exception, which would be much clearer - something like: "As a special exception, you are also allowed to link to Qt from code that uses other open sources license, provided that all parts of your application are open source licensed."
Another problem is that the agreement only covers the X11 platform. We (that is, KDE people) hope that Trolltech will update it to also include Windows and MacOS.
The Trolltech website also has other problematic pages. For example, they do not always distinguish correctly between "commercial" and "proprietary" in their FAQ.
I think that's a fair statement of the licensing situation.
If they solved these matters - simplified allowing other FOSS licenses, and expanded that to all of Qt, not just Qt/X11 - then I would be very happy. But the thing is, 'they' in this case are Trolltech, a for-profit corporation, and I have no confidence that they will do so. I hope my skepticism is proven wrong. Meanwhile, I personally prefer the GTK+ licensing, as things stand.
And like many X bashers, you are WRONG. Read the XTerm manual. You can configure keys to copy text in to any clipboard. So you can do it with xterm.
OK, so I have to read the manual of the terminal emulator to find out how to copy text in a useful way. That's hardly friendly...
Not when you need to transfer files from a firewalled server using fish:// through a tunneled ssh connection to an embedded machine using ftp:// all done using a single drag and drop and a hortizontal split screen in konqueror.
:(
Then you sing the true praises of Konqueror as a file manager.
(It is true that its really the kioslaves doing all of the work and that dolphin will seamlessly emulate this behavior but I still jumped for joy to see this work.)
Cheers
Ben
PS. I use ff for a bowser nowadays. The extensions are too good to pass up. Which konqueror still doesn't have
Actually...
(1) the ROX Desktop uses drag-and-drop to install programs, and has done so almost as long as Mac OS X has (from another influence). ROX is a competitor to Gnome and KDE, not Debian or Red Hat, and so this works on all distributions. I don't understand any better than the next person why Mozilla won't distribute Firefox nightlies as AppDirs, nor why Nautilus and Konqueror won't execute them.
As for the rest, I'm surprised things aren't working just right for you anyway. They usually do. If they're not, you're right: But it's an excellent idea to try filing a bug with the relevant distribution; Free Software devs are almost entirely self-guided and working on their own desktop, so they're used to the faults and see through them. More practical than ranting on Slashdot, at least.
Look out!
My complaint: You can't paste a copied image once you've closed the app you copied it from.
Your response: X works over a network.
Wha-huh?! Think you can explain what the hell the response has anything to do with the complaint? Maybe you should be condescending, you might make a little bit more sense.
You cleverly cut your own complaint, but you were actually complaining about the algorithm. To quote: " And yet, even with that experience, I can easily see how horribly flawed the Linux way of handling the clipboard is."
I cut out the whining, I can't stand the hypocritical nonsense anymore. I tried to help, and I am sorry I did.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.