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To Verizon, "Unlimited" Means 5 GB

Jason writes "For years there have been stories about people getting their unlimited Verizon EVDO Wireless accounts terminated because of excessive data usage, but Verizon never explicitly said that there is a limit. Now if you dive into the terms of the Unlimited Data Service plan they have put a section in that specifically states that anything over 5GB of data usage in a one month period is considered prima facie evidence that you must be downloading movies, and you will be cut off."

125 of 743 comments (clear)

  1. What the hell? by Vampyre_Dark · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And what if you paid for those movies?

    1. Re:What the hell? by z_gringo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Somehow, I don't think they care.

      It is just easier for them to sell something called "unlimited" than it is to sell something called "limited to 5GB".

      --
      -- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
    2. Re:What the hell? by Cragen · · Score: 5, Informative

      At least they are consistent. Verizon gives you 2GB for your FIOS email account, but will not allow any emails older than 30 days to remain in one's email folders. They are simply deleted after 30.00001 days. Thank goodness for Gmail, and all the rest. Verizon email is simply a waste. Perhaps they really don't want anyone to use. it.

    3. Re:What the hell? by jimstapleton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's a pretty standard business model, that Version is better at than most, usually it's self destructive though, as it hinders repeat business.

      Basically, get as much money from the customer while providing the minimum possible, often less than you lead the customer to expect. As long as you can hold it up in the court of law.

      The email trick will hold up because it's being deleted by date, not size. The "unlimited bandwidth"... I don't think that could hold up.

      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    4. Re:What the hell? by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't think it's "easier", it's "lazier".

      If I were Verizon, I'd be plugging the hell out of the 5G limit. I'd call it "Data 5G" or something similar, I'd describe the kinds of things you can do with 5G. I'd use the term "Effectively unlimited".

      And then after the sheer enormity of that number had sunk in, I'd create a new plan, costing $10 a month more, called "Data 20G".

      Verizon isn't merely being dishonest in calling it "Unlimited", they're also being very, very, stupid.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    5. Re:What the hell? by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This brings up a good point, when I installed Burning Crusades I did it as a download install. That was 2.2GB and the patch to get me up to where it would install on WoW was several hundred megs, and so were the post Burning Crusades patches. So in total I would have used half of my monthly data usage just installing a WoW update. This is why I like Wide Open West, I get 3 IP's and as far as I can tell there are no data caps and they don't do stupid things like throttle Bittorrent (Bittorrent is an ISP's friend because it can keep large amount of bulk data transfers within their network).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    6. Re:What the hell? by toleraen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't forget Blizzard does you the favor of using your upload for patches! Not sure if uploading counts toward the 5GB limit for VZW.

    7. Re:What the hell? by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, marketing friendly would provide you with the opportunity to grow, as described above. It's just plain idiotic.

      How, exactly, is Verizon supposed to market its bigger and better service in the future if its describing its current one as "Unlimited"?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    8. Re:What the hell? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It can, but (usually) does not. :( As a result, it usually becomes an ISP's worst enemy.

      That said, throttling it to a fixed cap is bad, but I would not care if an ISP made BT traffic low-priority, as long as they were clear that they did so.

      I hate hidden caps (such Cablevision OptimumOffline's "we'll permanently drop your cap down to 150 KB/sec without warning or notification if you use too much upstream" policy.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    9. Re:What the hell? by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 3, Informative

      Verizon isn't merely being dishonest in calling it "Unlimited", they're also being very, very, stupid.

      That's what rocks about the cellular service industry. Everybody's mouth-breathing stupid so it's not a competitive disadvantage.

      I read Verizon's TOS a couple of months ago when evaluating the service and said "no thanks". They say in no uncertain terms that the service is for web browsing and email only, and if you go over the 5G they'll assume you're using it for something else and cut you off with no recourse.

      While web and email are probably what I spend the most time doing, I still download iso's with bt, use ichat with my mother, stuff that uses more bandwidth. I might also use a vpn or something like that.

      I look at my mother as the quintessential "normal user", and even she is doing stuff that's outside the realm of email and web. Thankfully wifi hotspots are common enough that I'm not too worried about it.

    10. Re:What the hell? by bberens · · Score: 4, Funny

      A true geek would write a script to forward all of their e-mails to themselves after 29 days so that the e-mail all remains fresh.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    11. Re:What the hell? by kalirion · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All ISP email accounts are a waste. Why would you want something as important as email tied to a service you may quit?

    12. Re:What the hell? by ByteofK · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whereas if you are AT&T they expect you to use their email service. While I have about 6 or 7 domains and an account at each of GMail, Yahoo and Hotmail, I thought I would not need to use the free email account they provided me. During a dispute over billing, they implemented a "soft shutoff" which involved nothing more than blocking the email account. As I was oblivious to this move I had no idea they had given us the soft shutoff so when they pulled the plug, it came as a surprise. Idiots. Even more idiotic, after crediting me the $99 breach of contract charge (even though I didn't sign a contract) and the remainder of my bill for the aggro, they realised they had over-credited me and sent me a check for $0.09. The whole billing argument was about the so-called $11 per month landline service which cost me $25. As a foreign national, US resident, they couldn't say I knew or expected the bill to be that much higher including all the taxes. Or it might have been my first phone bill after leaving home. It's crap like this that needs to be clamped down on in this country, not the illegal (or legal!) downloading of movies, music and software.

    13. Re:What the hell? by jimstapleton · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, a true geek would set up something involving standard tag lines, so that people could have the email auto-shunted to certain folders.

      It would then allow sign up, and send 1.8GB-1.9GB of email per month distributed evenly over each day.

      Make sure verizon is /forced/ into providing their promised deal.

      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    14. Re:What the hell? by aplusjimages · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Totally agree. I have friends constantly sending me their new email address because they switched from Bellsouth to Comcast. Then a year later they switch to another ISP and I have to change it again.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    15. Re:What the hell? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Now think about how a company like Verizon is going to act when there's no Net Neutrality. How long you think it's going to take before you are so limited by their TOS that you can ONLY do email and web browsing, and only using their email and approved web sites?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    16. Re:What the hell? by Intron · · Score: 3, Informative

      5GB is the upper limit. Here's the TOS:

      "Unlimited Data Plans and Features (such as NationalAccess, BroadbandAccess, Push to Talk, and certain VZEmail services) may ONLY be used with wireless devices for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email, and individual productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales force, and field service automation). The Unlimited Data Plans and Features MAY NOT be used for any other purpose. Examples of prohibited uses include, without limitation, the following: (i) continuous uploading, downloading or streaming of audio or video programming or games; (ii) server devices or host computer applications, including, but not limited to, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, automated machine-to-machine connections or peer-to-peer (P2P) file sharing; or (iii) as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections. This means, by way of example only, that checking email, surfing the Internet, downloading legally acquired songs, and/or visiting corporate intranets is permitted, but downloading movies using P2P file sharing services and/or redirecting television signals for viewing on laptops is prohibited. A person engaged in prohibited uses, continuously for one hour, could typically use 100 to 200 MBs, or, if engaged in prohibited uses for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, could use more than 5 GBs in a month."

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    17. Re:What the hell? by ady1 · · Score: 2

      Unliimiited?

    18. Re:What the hell? by wperry1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One word: Accessibility

      I have 2 computers at work, a laptop and a desktop at home, Blackberry, and I occasionally find the need to check my e-mail on a friend's computer. With my e-mail stored on a remote (GMail) server I can get to my current mail from anywhere.

      -----
      WP
      http://www.wperry.net/

    19. Re:What the hell? by UnxMully · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not "marketing friendly" to anyone with half a brain, which I hope covers most people who sign up for mobile data to that kind of level. My supplier in the UK, Orange, has an unlimited data plan which has a 1GB per month cap and I can blow that in far less than a month and know that all to well which is why I'd never sign up to a plan like that.

      If a service is unlimited then there should be no limits to it other than the laws of physics, and you all know we canna defy the laws of physics. If you have a fair use clause which allows a supplier to terminate your account if you breach it, then it's not an unlimited account and I'm really surprised it can be advertised as such.

      Call it a 1GB plan or whatever, as others have suggested, but not unlimited when it clearly has limits.

    20. Re:What the hell? by advocate_one · · Score: 3, Interesting

      that's me stuffed then... I took a peek at my Azureus stats... and over the last 250 or so days, I've downloaded 325 GB and uploaded 340 GB... and thats with a paltry 50KB/s upstream... That's a lot of Linux distros... mind you, there's an awful lot of public domain films and music that I download and seed as well.

      Mind you, I'm with an ISP that does not have one of these stupid "fair use" policies tied to their "unlimited" accounts... I have broadband via my cable account... and there's a fibre optic feed to a splitter thingy in the basement and I get a short coax run to my flat from that. That coax also carries my phone and TV signals.

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    21. Re:What the hell? by mgiuca · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, I totally agree.

      In Australia, no plans are truly unlimited (I think it's because of the high cost to connect us to the rest of the world). For example, I'm with Bigpond. We have the plan called ... surprise, "Unlimited". It's actually 10GB broadband, and after that, capped at about 14kbps or some ridiculous sub-modem speed, and that is truly unlimited.

      It isn't as draconian as Verizon (you don't get "terminated" or charged extra). It just isn't *really* unlimited because the Internet these days is pretty much unusable at 14kbps.

    22. Re:What the hell? by UnxMully · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty lucky with my ISP - I managed to get an effectively unlimited account when I signed up some time back - but I understand your pain. I have no context for the cost of comms to and from Australia but surely the infrastructure must be good enough now to not have such caps?

      But even then, to be honest I would think reduced download speed was a better way of restricting over users rather than cutting them off or terminating contracts.

    23. Re:What the hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      A true geek would write a script to forward all of their e-mails to themselves after 29 days so that the e-mail all remains fresh.

      FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: fw: FW: FW: FW: FW: fw: fw: fw: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: fw: fw: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: fw: FW: FW: FW: FW: fw: fw: fw: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: fw: fw: FW: Y2K Patches Newsletter
    24. Re:What the hell? by arodland · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well we're talking about EVDO here, not wired broadband. It's expensive to set that stuff up, and they're selling a lot more bandwidth than they have, in hopes that most people will never use more than half a percent of what's available. I don't expect them to allow anyone to run at peak rates constantly, because it would flood out the network. But they shouldn't be allowed to get away with selling a quite limited plan as "unlimited". Hopefully there's a way to nail them for misleading advertising, but I haven't seen it successfully done in any of the similar cases with broadband providers.

    25. Re:What the hell? by impleri · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ummm, I'm not sure about you, but I can access my home computer nicely through SSH and check my email from anywhere. Sure, it's nice to have a webmail interface, but I hate using my server space for email. And, If one was really interested in having that sort of accessibility just simply get a nice mail system running on a home computer that gets email via POP from Verizon/whoever and has its own webmail interface (e.g. getting an MTA running on a home computer with Apache and PHP running Squirrelmail or the like and having a dynamic DNS service)? It's a bit more complex to get running, but it gets the best of both worlds: email on your computer and easy accessibility.

    26. Re:What the hell? by rainman_bc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      and only using their email and approved web sites?

      I recall back in the days of Aol,Prodigy and Compuserve where they had internal only sites. The internet wrecked that business model really fast.

      And once you filter the web you lose your common carrier status. Something that would legally sting ISP's when all of a sudden there's kiddie porn lawsuits popping up all over the place.

      I don't see that coming any time soon as long as there's competition in the ISP space.

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      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    27. Re:What the hell? by wperry1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I had a similar setup for a while but then I found out it was costing me ~$35/mo in electricity just to keep my PC running all the time. That's for a 400Watt system at $.12/KWh.

      Hosted GMail is free.

      -----
      WP

    28. Re:What the hell? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe it's called a class-action lawsuit where affected people all gather together to get their voices heard. Perhaps when people learn about these "restrictions" on "unlimited", they will go ahead and launch this suit.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    29. Re:What the hell? by Splab · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One thing that keeps baffling me is what the US citizens will take from companies. Here in Denmark, if you sell something as unlimited you damned well better be prepared to offer it else you will get your ass wouped for false advertisement.

      We even have requirements for companies to explicitly tell how much you have to pay in total if the service is with a minimum sign up period.

    30. Re:What the hell? by ByteofK · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sometimes you haven't got much option but to "take it". I only got the refund from AT&T after mentioning "bait and switch" and a possible FCC report. Until that point they were quite happy to "do me the favour" of "waiving" the $99 breach of contract fee and insisted on the rest of the payment. Have you ever heard a radio commercial from the US? There's about 10 lines of big claims spoken in the normal voice, then at the end 5 seconds of "audio fine print" that would normally take 30-60 seconds to read off, but is digitally shrunk into something which sounds like words but there's no way the human ear can make all of it out. It's almost like the "fine print" is in txtese.

    31. Re:What the hell? by osu-neko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry guys, true geeks already own our own mailservers.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    32. Re:What the hell? by afidel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yep, when talking to large college and ISP network admins they have seen that Bittorrent uses a large amount of internode bandwidth but it reduces the amount of traffic that needs to pass peering boundaries or that would require a trip out the internet pipe. A good example would be patch day for WoW, if everyone in the dorm needs to pull down a large patch it would eat a huge amount of bandwidth but if the majority of each patch download can be satisfied by peers in the dorm then the total amount that goes out the internet pipe is drastically reduced and each download is also much, much faster. The ISP situation is similar but on a much larger scale.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    33. Re:What the hell? by ncc74656 · · Score: 2, Funny

      No no, a true geek would just get an email account from another provider.

      The true geek runs his own mail server.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
  2. Ah memories... by PC-PHIX · · Score: 5, Funny

    Reminds me of some time ago when I got my first hard drive with "unlimited" capacity... and then accidentally filled it up with 5GB of movies in the first few days of using it.

    I vowed next time to get a hard drive with at least twice unlimited capacity.

    --
    Optimist: The thumb drive is half empty! Pessimist: The thumb drive is half full...
    1. Re:Ah memories... by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 5, Funny

      No matter its size, when correctly used, a HD can have only 3 states: still in the box, almost full and dead.

    2. Re:Ah memories... by clambake · · Score: 2, Funny

      No matter its size, when correctly used, a HD can have only 3 states: still in the box, almost full and dead.

      Hey, "almost full" and "dead" are NOT mutually exclusive!

  3. Limited != Unlimited by Lezarwerks · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Companies are slowing evolving into lawyer-based companies, where they will soon have a whole codebook to define what each word in the dictionary really means. This is all for the money, no doubt.

    1. Re:Limited != Unlimited by nwbvt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Remember, this is the same company that last year had trouble telling the difference between dollars and cents. It may well be that they were simply confused.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    2. Re:Limited != Unlimited by Don_dumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Welcome to the internet in the UK, loads of ISPs advertise 'Unlimited' adsl only to actually have limits. One has been found guilty of false advertising.
      In fact many ISPs claim to have unlimited use (despite all ADSL in the UK being limited) most only state in the small print that they have 'Fair Usage Policies' (FUP) which will come in when they decide you have used too much, they always imply that there are no limits (one even states "that you dont have to monitor your usage!").

      This is simply illegal IMHO, you cannot state that something is unlimited when it is limited. Even if this contradiction comes in the small print, especially when you do not state how limited it is. A c
      This page http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/caps.htm outlines it perfectly.

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
  4. .ca by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    My .ca ISP never said "unlimited" but 90 GB/month. They never write unless I hit at least 120 GB. And they don't send forward letters from the RIAA/MPAA

    1. Re:.ca by aicrules · · Score: 4, Funny

      You hit 120GB a month? Do you remember what the outside looks like?

    2. Re:.ca by Cereal+Box · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other words, pirate a whole bunch of shit. That's pretty much what everyone assumes when you're downloading 4+GBs a day. It's not surprising that those who steal (excuse me, "infringe copyright") the most are the ones who complain the loudest about how their $39.95 a month should entitle them to a private T3 line with no bandwidth caps.

    3. Re:.ca by Gordonjcp · · Score: 5, Funny

      Do you remember what the outside looks like?

      Of course he does, he's got all these movies of it...

    4. Re:.ca by EvilGrin666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, right now it's only 'Pirates' hitting these limitations. However next week/month/year it'll be 'Average Joe User' with his . For example, how much bandwidth does the average Vonage user munch? What happens when IPTV starts to hit mainstream?

    5. Re:.ca by Cereal+Box · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First of all, Vonage hardly uses any bandwidth. It's something like 128kbps, so roughly 16KBps. NO ONE is going to talk 24/7, and even if they did, it's not going to rack up as much bandwidth as say, having several Bittorrents going at once.

      Again, with IPTV, there's a realistic limit on how much you're going to watch in a given month. In other words, there is a clear definition of what "unlimited" means in that context. And there's also no way in hell that someone can possibly watch TV 24/7 for an entire month, so that alone is evidence enough to justify that someone is abusing their connection. And let's not forget that the cable company can easily throttle back your general Internet bandwidth in the case that you're using excessive IPTV bandwidth.

      Now as far as the people in the article, they are CLEARLY using their cellphones as a general Internet connection for their computers. This is FORBIDDEN by the cellphone TOS unless you sign up for a different plan. I just flat out don't believe that someone used 5GB of bandwidth in a month by checking email and surfing web pages using ONLY their cellphone.

    6. Re:.ca by djrok212 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Read the original article again. This isn't people using their cellphones for Internet access, but Verizon's EVDO service which is designed to be a primary Internet access method for people on the road.

  5. Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and what if you're downloading linux distributions or other operating systems? ISO's for DVD's are consistently around 4gb. IF you download one dvd iso and one cd iso theres a good chance you will already be over the limit.

    1. Re:Linux by davper · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your assumption that everyone on the EVDO network only connects via a tethered cell phone is incorrect.

      Verizon sells PC cards that go into a computer so you can use your computer over the Verizon EVDO network AKA BroadbandAccess. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVDO

      In fact, I am replying to your statement on a laptop computer using a said PC Card on said Network. Either that, or I am paying for 2 cell phones like an idiot when this little slim PC card is also a cell phone. How do I dial?

  6. Well, in Canada... by lavid · · Score: 4, Funny

    In Canada just pay .02 cents per kB. What a great deal!

    --
    If Bush wants to kill the terrorists, he should jump off a cliff.
    1. Re:Well, in Canada... by trenien · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Well here in Japan I pay around $45 a month (modem rental included) for a 50M/s connection - mind you, if it was available where I live I'd get fiber at 100M/s.

      Limits? What limits? I remember last year when a friend came over for a while. With both our computers on the same connection, we often downloaded around 6Go a day...

  7. Forgive my statistics, but... by BinarySkies · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In a brief overview of the logs that are kept by a gateway at the local university, it shows that, on a daily basis, 32 members of my dormitory floor download at roughly 700KBps average during the day (that's total for all users). That's about 60,480,000 KB per day. Fifty NINE gigabytes per day. Divide that by 32. 1,845MB per person, per day. This is a reasonable number for college students. Let's assume that up to 75% of that is bittorrent, other peer to peer traffic, or what have you. That's STILL 461MB per person, per day, of assumed legitimate traffic. This is AIM, MSN, Yahoo, Web browsing, and other legal Internet services. 461MB * 30 days = 13,837MB or 13.5GB. I rest my case.

    1. Re:Forgive my statistics, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your assumption is where you made your mistake. You pulled 75% out of the air with no basis for doing so. What if bittorrent was 99.9% of the bandwidth used? Your case resting would be completely incorrect.

    2. Re:Forgive my statistics, but... by 8472 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think it's a pretty bold assumption to suggest that only 75% of that traffic is illegal P2P traffic. Speaking from my own experiences at university i'm sure that figure is more like 90% giving 1,845 x 0.1 x 30 = 5535MB... oh wait... yeah Verizon are crooks.

  8. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by Enfors · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's totally besides the point. If they say it's unlimited, then it should be unlimited. It may be a bad idea business wise for them to provide ulimited bandwidth for a fixed price, as you correctly point out, but that's their problem.

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    -Enfors-
  9. False Advertising by Silver+Sloth · · Score: 5, Informative

    Doesn't the US have somethign equivalent to the British Trades Description Act. If they tried selling 'unlimited' internet access with a limit in the UK it would be, de facto, illegal, whatever the small print.

    --
    init 11 - for when you need that edge.
    1. Re:False Advertising by thetroll123 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is you who is mistaken - the TDA imposes criminal penalties.

    2. Re:False Advertising by BJC · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, it would be illegal.

    3. Re:False Advertising by VirusEqualsVeryYes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it wouldn't be illegal - no law would be broken.
      There may or may not be laws specifically regarding false advertising, but there sure as hell exists the FTC (in the US) which regulates such things. Don't confuse "civil law" with "suggestive in nature". If the FTC deems this intentionally misleading and unfair (and I think they would), then yes, Verizon's practices are, in fact, illegal. Fine print can clarify, but it can't directly and obviously clash with other information.

      Secondly, most ISPs sell `unlimited` net access, and I think they all have a `fair use policy` which will get you cut off if you download too much.
      However, those bounds should be reasonable. If you, as an end user, are downloading a TB or more a day, it's pretty clear that you're doing much more than what is legal. Even if theoretically it's possible that you are paying for legitimate movie downloads, there comes a point where it's not possible for you to be going through all the material you download without watching 2 or 3 movies at once. Of course, the ISP's--and, more importantly, the courts--will not set the bar that high. What is "reasonable" to download is subjective, but 5GB is very clearly reasonable and easily attainable.

      Of course, the best way to avoid any of this is to avoid advertising "unlimited". Unfortunately, laymen currently define "unlimited" as "at least a little more than I would ever use", and relatively few are ever going to complain about Verizon's and others' like policies.
    4. Re:False Advertising by Dachannien · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, there are situations in the US in which false advertising is a criminal act. In particular, see 18 USC 52-55. The same applies, perhaps even in a broader sense, in some states. In Ohio, for example, it may be a third- or second-degree misdemeanor.

      Civil remedies may apply as well, although an individual's damages are likely to be very minimal in this case, probably governed by state law. In Ohio, this would probably amount at most to the prorated monthly service fee, possibly a connection charge by an alternate supplier, and attorney's fees. If you're willing to file in non-small-claims court, you could also ask for an injunction against the offender.

      (I ANAL, and all that jazz.)

    5. Re:False Advertising by chowells · · Score: 2, Informative

      "If they tried selling 'unlimited' internet access with a limit in the UK"

      A very large number of companies already do.

      "it would be, de facto, illegal,"

      Whatever the legality of it, the Advertising Standards Authority turns a blind eye.

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/27/fair_use_p etition/

  10. Re:Let me get this straight: by CliffSpradlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, they will cut you off, but not because they assume you're pirating movies.

    If you read the actual terms you'll see this:

    Examples of prohibited uses include, without limitation, the following: (i) continuous uploading, downloading or streaming of audio or video programming or games;

    Basically, they don't want you using the internet to purchase movies or music from anyone other than Verizon. It's an incredibly anti-competitive action.

  11. Purpose is plainly stated by wombatmobile · · Score: 5, Informative


    Paragraph 1 of the Verizon terms state plainly that the Unlimited plain means unlimited bandwidth for a particular small set of uses:

    Unlimited Data Plans and Features (such as NationalAccess, BroadbandAccess, Push to Talk, and certain VZEmail services) may ONLY be used with wireless devices for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email, and individual productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales force, and field service automation). The Unlimited Data Plans and Features MAY NOT be used for any other purpose.
    1. Re:Purpose is plainly stated by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Funny

      Our new car* can drive faster than the speed of sound**, to anywhere on Earth***, and carry as many passengers as you need****!

      **** Limit of four passengers
      *** Scope of car limited to that part of Earth that includes the city of Detroit and surrounding areas
      ** Speed limited to 70MPH
      * Not a car

      If you advertise "Unlimited", and it's not unlimited, you're lying. Putting it in the small print doesn't make you honest, it's an admission of guilt.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  12. I once got paid to quit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Reminds me of an ISP in Germany that offered unlimited broadband for cheap 7 bucks a month.

    They also gave me a brand new VoIP-enabled wireless router as a welcome present and didn't even charge for the first 3 months.

    After 5 months that guy calls: "I want to talk to you about your DSL plan [...] over the past months you've been downloading an average 181 GB a month [...] up to 243 GB [...] bla bla bla"

    He then offered me 100 bucks if I agree to quit the plan immediately and never come back.

    So:
    State-of-the-art VoIP-router: 0,00$
    5 months of downloading TV series: -14,00$
    Getting paid to leave: : +100,00$ (priceless)
    ---------------
    all of the above: +86,00$

    1. Re:I once got paid to quit by crabpeople · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah we all saw that episode. Was your friends name homer simpson?

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
  13. new idea for advertising by bazorg · · Score: 4, Funny
    Unlimited* Internet Access for only US$29.999

    * - Bullshit!

  14. Not everyone has unlimited access. by jovetoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, you might find that extremely limited (and it is) but it isn't so strange for me. In Belgium the major ISPs (Belgacom, Telenet) allow about 10Gb quota per month, with 5 euro per 5Gb for extra quota. This is expensive! Downloading a movie or even a linux distribution DVD costs you several euros on bandwidth alone.
    Minor ISPs use this a nice way into the market. (For example, mine allows me 20Gb default with a 0.25 euro cents per Gb over that upto 60Gb per month).
    Offcourse, all limits are openly advertised...

  15. Verizon "unlimited" by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Unlimited", 5 GB means old V lawyers have a 32 bit overflow "feature" in their vocabulary, rounded up, 2^32 = 4294967296. V is also for Verizon.

  16. assumed legitimate traffic. by wiredog · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The operative word here being assumed.

    Someone who's IM'ing 13.5 GB/Month won't be in college long...

    1. Re:assumed legitimate traffic. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Funny

      Someone who's IM'ing 13.5 GB/Month won't be in college long... But if you're using a video IM at 640x480 @ 30fps to chat daily with your sick grand aunt....
      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  17. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by CriminalNerd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nonono...they TELL you that it's unlimited, then slip in the 5GB limit into the fine print. It's false advertising.

  18. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by Selivanow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem is that Verizon ADVERTISES the plan as unlimited. Although I can not say from experience, it would not surprise me if Verizon employees also advertised it as such or just not mention the fine print when signing you up. Remember, it's all about the money...they want you as a customer and if you manage to miss the fine print for 15 days, after which they have you as an income stream for 2 years (before which you can legally terminate your contract w/o penalty).
    The previous poster is correct. Verizon should not be allowed to advertise in such a misleading way.

    --
    -- ...trying to make digital files uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet. -Bruce Schneier
  19. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by rucs_hack · · Score: 3, Insightful

    its all down to the definition. A 'normal' user, reading pages, and sending/receiving email, would see 5gb as more then they would use. Someone with greater needs, such as to download large files, would see 5gb as barely adequate. Hell, even re installing a Steam account on your computer could fill that in a day.

    That aside, the thing is that companies like Verizon have seen their old pricing model prove inadequate over time, and they want to distance themselves from the previous model. The interweb was such that only people downloading illegally were exceeding their previously undefined upper limit. I would imagine they got the 5gb value by doing some data mining on their customers. I'd bet that most never go near 5gb.

    I imagine they know people will soon start buying movies and other large media online as a matter of course, and they want to be able to charge for 'premium' access. The best way to achieve that is show that they are taking action now against heavy downloaders, demonstrating the need for different levels of access, so they cannot be accused of suddenly instituting a new system for the sake of profit only.

    I would cope with metered access, if it meant no hassle when I did transfer a lot. I do often have to transfer large amounts of data between home and my lab overnight.

  20. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The contract is fair and reasonable, but conflicts with their advertising. You can't advertise the Brooklyn Bridge for sale and then present someone with a contract for a tenement in The Bronx. People just want truthful advertising.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  21. Google calculator has something to say by vivaoporto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    5 (gigabytes / month) = 15.9494775 kbps. That's a quarter of the dialup speed. You can reach 5 GB/month using your good old 56 kbps dialip connection 6 hours a day on its max capacity. Enough said.

    In other news, I pay 25 euros/month for a 8 Mbps down/512 Kbps up unlimited cable line, and I consider it expensive, and plan to change to the competitor that offers a 4M/512K by under 20 euros. God bless Europe.

  22. Re:5 GB not much by theckhd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This isn't limited to mobile phone access. They actually market this as a feasible alternative to DSL and cable. If you go to their product site, you'll find that they advertise that the speeds are comparable to DSL, and they offer a PC card so that you can connect without using your phone. And while they offer the plan cheaper with a 2-year phone contract ($59.99), you'll notice that you can purchase this service for a little more without any voice plan at all ($79.99).

    So on the one hand, they're advertising this as an easy and convenient alternative to DSL, while at the same time rewriting the terms of service to make it abundantly clear that it's not intended to compete with DSL. If you're going to be actually using the bandwidth you're paying for ($79.99 is about twice as expensive as a regular DSL line in my area), they want you to get a real DSL setup that can actually handle the advertised bandwidth.

  23. Re:Can you say "deceptive marketing"? by walt-sjc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Except that they have corporate lawyers on staff that deal with "annoying" lawsuits like this without really costing them anything. It will cost you 50K - 100K to start unless you are lucky enough to find a very good lawyer (and they will need to be good to go up against Verizon) that is willing to do it on spec. You KNOW the FTC and other government agencies are not going to come to your aid, right???

  24. Remote back-up software by ciaran.mchale · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Lots of consultants and sales people in the company where I work have laptops. These people travel a lot and some (like me) work from a home office. Rather than each of us using an external disk drive to do backups, our laptops have software installed that backs up data from the laptop to a website that is run by a third-party company.

    The initial backup of data (not .exe files) from my laptop took about 5 GB. Future backups are incremental, but the initial backup would have put me over the Verizon "unlimited" limit without any movies or MP3 files being involved. It's a good thing I'm with a different ISP.

  25. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch by thomasj · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I am still a bit baffled by the notion "Unlimited". When I dine at a highway restaurant, there is usually a stand with utensils and napkins where you just help yourself without any particular restrictions. I suppose that you can take an unlimited number of napkins, if unlimited means "a lot but reasonable" number.

    So in my book unlimited, is not unlimited! I wish vendors and customers would stop advertizing/expecting that. I think it is fair game to say "5 Gig/mo, additional traffic charged by rate". That is comparable when shopping for a connection. I am all for no-nonsense price structures.

    I personally wouldn't choose a connection with true unlimited/unmetered price structure. That means that I would share the total bandwith with DIVX-heads constantly downloading while I struggle to get SSH and VoIP operate at a latency like [insert favorite unfavorite place].

    --
    :-) = I am happy
    :^) = I am happy with my big nose
    C:\> = I am happy with my OS
    1. Re:There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unlimited is not a term that is ambiguous in any sense. If you can take it to mean anything other tha "without limit" then you aren't speaking English.

  26. unlimited data vs unlimited bandwidth by underwhelm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unlimited data and unlimited bandwidth aren't the same. Why doesn't Verizon just throttle abusers? They can still have their unlimited data as advertised, just at a rate of 2400bps.

    --

    I don't need large brains to have a good time.

  27. This is 2007. by MarkByers · · Score: 3, Funny

    Paying for movies is so old-fashioned. I don't think people do it any more. If you are downloading more the 5GB then you are definitely a pirate.

    But take comfort in the fact that you are helping stop global warming.

    --
    I'll probably be modded down for this...
    1. Re:This is 2007. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First: (obligatory IANAL) downloading movies is perfectly legal - uploading them is illegal.

      Now for the 5GB limit. Get real. 1 DVD ISO for a linux distro is 4GB alone. I could easily reach this limit in about 20 minutes without even trying, just setting up a new machine. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that just 2 weeks ago, I probably downloaded over 15GB of data in about a 3 hour time frame, and there wasn't a single song, movie, or illegal download involved. And that was only part of 1 day. I'd hate to see what my monthly download was. And let's not forget that all good linux distro downloaders user bittorrent with a share ratio of 1 or greater, so that's also a minimum of 4GB upload.

      Heck, is there an upload limit? I upload 8MB pictures for printing at my favorite printing place. I'm sure a 1 day upload of roughly 1GB might raise eyebrows as well?

      5GB might have been a realistic threshold in 2000, when everything was a lot smaller. It's ridiculously small today for anyone that actually does anything.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    2. Re:This is 2007. by MoHaG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you are downloading more the 5GB then you are definitely a pirate. Or you download and test Solaris and Solaris Express, or you download a DVD based linux distro over bittorrent.....

      There are many ways to use more that 5GB a month....

      Well this makes the typical South African's complaints about a very low 3GB cap seem invalid... (I know users thats able to use more that 50GB / month on local only accounts....)
    3. Re:This is 2007. by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First: (obligatory IANAL) downloading movies is perfectly legal - uploading them is illegal.

      You are dumber than toast. Downloading a movie makes a copy of it. If you're not authorised to make that copy, you're infringing the owner's rights. Just because the MPAA are only choosing to sue uploaders doesn't make downloading legal.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    4. Re:This is 2007. by RevMike · · Score: 4, Informative

      Now for the 5GB limit. Get real. 1 DVD ISO for a linux distro is 4GB alone. I could easily reach this limit in about 20 minutes without even trying, just setting up a new machine.

      I think you probably missed an important point. This is not a limit on Verizon's wired DSL or FIOS services, this is VerizonWireless' (a different company) 3G wireless data services.

      With an average download speed of about 400kbs, 5GB represents about 40 hours of continuous download. EvDO is simply not practical for moving about large amounts of data.

      I'm not a great fan of Verizon's business practices, but from a practical perspective the 5 GB limit is unlikely to affect 99.99% of their users. I'm traveling to client sites quite a bit for my job doing software implementations. I use the service extensively, mostly for web access, replicating email, and some Remote Desktop/VNC usage, and I rarely break 1GB in a month.

    5. Re:This is 2007. by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depends on your jurisdiction. In some areas, there's a levy on blank dvds that covers this. Same as the levy on, for example, blank CDs in Canada, that is paid to the Canadian equivalent of the RIAA.

      As for excessive bandwidth use being "prima facie evidence" of illegal movie downloading, they don't know the meaning of the term. Its nothing of the sort, and is easily disproven - I've downloaded 9 gigs of isos - OpenSuse 10 Alpha 3 - and uploaded 26 gigs of the same in the last couple of weeks.

      Evidence that is sufficient to raise a presumption of fact or to establish the fact in question unless rebutted.

      A prima-facie case is a lawsuit that alleges facts adequate to prove the underlying conduct supporting the cause of action and thereby prevail.

      There is a big difference between "prima facie" and "baseless assumption without any evidence so we can screw our customers over".

    6. Re:This is 2007. by steronz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nobody knows. There was an ask /. a while back with a copyright lawyer. Basically, the only thing that's been tested in court is making personal copies of casette tapes for home use purposes. There's no court precedent that buying a DVD gives you a license to own that content in any format. That's not to say it's definitely illegal, but the only legal answer a lawyer will give you right now to your "kid scratched my DVD up" problem is "go buy another one." Fair use rules in the home recording act have only been narrowly interpreted, and they'll remain that way as long as the MPAA doesn't sue individual downloaders.

    7. Re:This is 2007. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The law is quite muddy in that they want it to be illegal to have it, but there are several exceptions (e.g., medicinal, naval). You are aware that the US Navy is the largest legal hemp grower and consumer in the US?

      The reason I say it's muddy is that the federal and state governments are testing how far the federal government's power goes in regulating products that appear to be regulated for political reasons only (the medicinal use vs 0 tolerance).

      Personally, I like the Netherlands take on it. Imagine what would happen if it became legal, widely available, and cheap. An entire class of criminal would almost instantly disappear overnight. School children would no longer be approached to get them hooked early. Paper products could be made cheaply from quickly renewable resources. The list goes on, but apparently the "War on Drugs" to profit both the law enforcement and prison industries directly and chemical and timber companies indirectly sells better than economic common sense.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    8. Re:This is 2007. by gfxguy · · Score: 2, Informative

      But there was the case of... was "mymp3.com?"

      It worked by having you download a program that, when you put a CD in the drive, it read the serial number and then gave you access to mp3 versions of those songs (that you have that CD was information stored in your account). Then when you wanted to access those mp3s from... oh, let's say your computer at work, or a second computer at home, you'd log into your account and those songs for which you had demonstrated possession of the CD were unlocked. In other words, possessing the CD unlocked the songs, you didn't need the CD everywhere you went, that would defeat the purpose.

      Ok, so the RIAA sued and won. Why? Because the lettering of the law says you can make a copy of YOUR media, but that possession of media doesn't give you the right to a copy of someone elses copy of the media (that they would be identical, assuming you used the same algorithms to create the mp3 didn't matter).

      So I'd say, in this case, if you had the ability to copy your DVD for the purpose of a backup, you'd technically be safe, but owning a damaged media doesn't give you any rights to downloading even the identical content.

      So, perhaps there's something really fuzzy going on here. I don't recall that slashdot article, and I'd like to see how the question and answer was phrased, but I think there is precedence in that ruling. I disagree with it, but I think the precedence is there.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    9. Re:This is 2007. by aclarke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect 99.99% of their customers. It's still not unlimited, which is what they're advertising. It is a Big Deal for that 0.001% (higher really) of people who DO go over the value. One of my friends just got kicked off Verizon's service a couple weeks ago. He's a software developer, works at home a lot, and livs in an RV. This service SHOULD have been good for him, but after downloading a few TV shows from iTunes (NOT P2P, notice) and a couple Linux ISOs or whatever, he suddenly got booted. They didn't even give him an option to pay more and stay on the service.

      That's no "unlimited" in any real sense of the word. I don't think anyone would reasonably fault Verizon for putting a 5GB limit on their plan. To call it unlimited though is disingenuous, no matter what the fine print says, and to not offer any other more expensive options for those who do go over the limit is just stupid.

    10. Re:This is 2007. by rucs_hack · · Score: 2, Interesting

      YANALAY - You are not a lawyer, are you?

      Nope, but like many computer scientists, law was a required portion of my course.

      As far as I know, this question has not been definitively settled by any court rulings and there are no specific laws that say "thou shalt not copy a DVD to replace a damaged DVD." So it might be okay and it might not be okay. The MPAA and movie studios seem to think it is not okay. Expect a long, expensive fight that you *might* win if you'd like to assert the right to download DVDs as a means of obtaining a backup copy for a damaged copy.

      There is fair use, you cannot be punished for making a single copy. However the DMCA (what a wonderful cockup that was) made it so you are breaking the law if you circumvent copy protection stuff to obtain the copy to which you are entitled. No court would say you can download an illegal copy to make a 'backup'. The thing is, you are downloading from an unauthorised distribution portal, you wouldn't win the argument. If it is a torrent you would have been uploading too, so your council would likely advise you to avoid that argument.

      If you have not made a backup of a dvd/other media before it is damaged, then legally you're screwed. You have broken the copy you had a licence for, so you need to buy a new one. Getting a copy from elsewhere once yours is damaged may sound legal/fair, but it is most definitely not legal. Read the DMCA, its a crazy document (I had to, it's boring in places, but mostly an enlightening read)


      On an unrelated note, whoeover developed the idea of a media license applying only to the provided medium (i.e. "you have a license for the intellectual property named movie A, but only on the disc you bought") was, I like to think, failed physicist who was always fascinated by wave/particle duality and so they developed their own version called media/medium duality.


      Nope, the idea of money being for a single copy is as old as a jolly old thing. After all, buying a car does not give you the right to create new copies of that car, buying a book has not, for centuries, entitled you to make your own copies. Besides, when you buy a movie, you agree to their licence terms, and that clearly indicates that the licence is for the copy your purchased only.

    11. Re:This is 2007. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Informative

      But there was the case of... was "mymp3.com?"

      my.mp3.com - the full text of the ruling is linked from wikipedia and is reasonably easy to read - either that or I've been reading so much copyright lawyerese lately that it has started to sound like normal English.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  28. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by gnasher719 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    '' Could you really expect to stream down the maximum amount of traffic possible 24/7 and pay the same as checking email once per day? ''

    If it says unlimited, then yes. My ISP offers contracts with a limit of 2 GB, 6 GB, and 30 GB per month, at different cost. I have a 6 GB contract. If I went with a competitor who offers "unlimited", then I would expect more than the 30 GB limit that my current ISP offers, and definitely not less than my current 6 GB contract.

  29. And the problem is? by JackMeyhoff · · Score: 2

    Isnt America the free market country? Then be free and dont give them your money, no? Or did I miss something?

    --
    http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
  30. Not bad for the mobile industry by jrumney · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you think that's bad, to Vodafone UK, "unlimited" means 15Mb. Yes mega, though that's per day, not per month. It also doesn't include IM, VOIP or P2P. This is according to their new price plans that start in June, with a "£1 per day flat rate for internet usage".

  31. Re:Whoa! by gnasher719 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    '' I agree that they should not be allowed to market it as 'unlimited' if it's not, but saying that 5GB is too little is just insane. ''

    5 GB is too little when you sell it as "unlimited".

    Nobody would complain if they advertised and sold it as "limited to 5 GB per month".

  32. Re:Whoa! by moxley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whether or not it's "too little" really isn't the issue as far as I'm concerned...

    What's too little for one person would be more than enough for another.

    The real issue is how they're marketing it; If there is a 5GB limit, then that is a limit... period - hence it is not "unlimited."

    I'm sure that it is easier for them to sell it as "unlimited," just like it would make my life a hell of a lot easier if I tell the IRS that I didn't make any money last year and refuse to let them commence their annual financial colonoscopy.

    They need to find another name - calling it unlimited is, basically a straight up lie.

  33. Pizza, Internet, what's the difference by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Informative

    Compare this to Papa John's, which is running a special on their website which says: Three Medium, Unlimited Toppings (Maximum Five Toppings per pizza)

    To quote Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that hword. I do not think it means what you think it means."

  34. Re:Nothing to do with piracy by miyako · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem is that they aren't exactly cutting off the customers. They are cutting off their service, certainly, but they are still collecting their money. It would be different if they were to say, actually offer unlimited service, but if someone is using more than 5GB a month, then they use a clause in the contract to drop them as a customer. Instead they cutting off access at 5GB a month, but forcing the customers to keep paying during the 2 year contract period.

    --
    Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
  35. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by rucs_hack · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think you are sort of right. However, lets look at a theoretical example:

    You have two customers, one is a light net user. They like to send photo's of their kids around on email to the rest of their family, spread all over the world, and use email as the main means of communicating between their extended family. They shop online, and like to hunt around for cheap flights/holidays. Perhaps they buy the odd small game on-line for the kids.

    The other customer is a gamer. They like to play on-line for many hours a day. They download multi gigabyte demos, and have a steam account that they use a lot. They spend a lot of time on Youtube, and use mail and msn constantly.

    The first customer can be given a moderatelly capped servive for, say thirty bucks a month (don't know the real US pricing). No problems will arise, they have what they need, you get their money.
    The second customer can pay fifty bucks and have a much higher limit, say 100Gb. Even the most intense gamer or movie purchaser is unlikely to exceed that. If they do, you charge in blocks of 10gb, and if it happens a lot, suggest they go to 150Gb, and pay more.

    By having a sliding scale of charges you avoid the unfairness of having light users paying the same, or close to the same, as heavy users.

    I know many heavy users point at the contracts they got that say unlimited, and wave fists about angrily, but, lets be honest here, few people who download hundreds of gigabytes a month are getting all legal stuff at present. To be frank, it isn't fair that I have to pay the same as someone else who rapes the tubes constantly.

    I have an 'unlimited' service, but my ISP looks at their customers with an eye to finding people who download much more then the others, and shifts them to shaped lines, or kicks them to a higher cost service. I can, and have, transferred tens of gigabytes of data around in recent months, I have to. However I am considerate and do it at night, and I cap my transfers so it doesn't max out my line. Although I definitely will show up with a high usage for a short while, on average I still behave myself, and have not been slapped.

  36. Nildram... by Phil+John · · Score: 2, Informative

    How about switching to a fairly decent (only fairly as they are part of Pipex, but seem fairly independent) ISP like Nildram then? They are totally up-front and honest about usage allowances...you get 50gig peak, unlimited off peak, and if you don't use the whole 50gigs peak one month it will roll over once to the next month.

    Failing that, go with an Enta reseller like the UK Free Software Network who give a portion of their profits to open source projects.

    Back on the subject though, I'm with T-Mobile on their "Web 'n' Walk" plus tarrif and they make it clear that it's a 3GB tarrif that disallows VOIP. For an extra £8 they up you to 10GB and allow VOIP.

    That's called being totally transparent, and I'm very grateful they "get it" and show the actual usage terms in plain English for all to see.

    --
    I am NaN
  37. A point that is irrelevant by Combatjuan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If his phone service works anything like my phone, he is probably not downloading /to/ his phone, he's probably downloading /through/ his phone. Windows (and presumably other OSes) sees a phone as an internet connection. My phone can act as a 802.11b access point, or do the same through phone based internet service. I haven't read the license agreement for this fellow's service, but I would assume that to be fair access. Nevertheless, this isn't even the point.

    The point is that they advertise the service as unlimited. If it's not unlimited, then that is simply false advertising. We need to hold companies accountable to what they say. And they don't need any help twisting their words to mean the complete opposite of what they say. That have armies of lawyers to do that for them. It is not unreasonable to demand accountability and honesty in the marketplace. Don't let them convince you that it is.

  38. Just marketing... by xtracto · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Here in the UK the same thing happens. I am always wary of those services providing unlimited *anything*. That is why I am more comfortable with Google's 3GB or 4GB or whatever space they give against say, yahoo's unlimited, because ALWAYS (show me an advertisement that does not have it) the word UNLIMITED comes with the corresponding '*' attached to it, and in the case of the broadband services they use the "Fair use" policy to trivially limit the bandwidth.

    I have also read a lot of times people assuming that the people that download a lot is *pirating* stuff. But with the current rise of multimedia content (VoIP, VoD, online gaming, and the massive amount of flash crap in the web) it is very easy to go over 2GB a month...

    --
    Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  39. Re:What?! by Jumperalex · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is a great thought. Too bad it IS my home internet since I can't get cable or dsl at my house (despite a cable line that was run down my street 6 months ago) and dial-up never got me more than 18kbs. Even EVDO was a stretch and I had to get an external antenna to make it work.

    --
    If you can't be good, be good at it!
  40. Wired usage habits on wireless are antisocial. by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So many people on this thread are talking about downloading movies, calculating what the average bandwidth of college students is, etc....

    What they are not addressing is that most people would be using wired bandwidth for these tasks. Wired bandwidth is relatively plentiful, even with the bottlenecks in the local loop. The capacity in the backbones is mostly restricted by the amount of routing, not the capacity of the fibers, which isn't anywhere near full (hear about all that "dark fiber"? New multiplexers? Hmm?)

    On the other hand, if you use wireless bandwidth, you're consuming it from a relatively small pool allocated to a cell. There's only so much you can squeeze out of radio bandwidth, which is why it's such a big deal to the cellular networks when the government auction off another slice of spectrum.

    Yes, this is false advertising by Verizon. But the real issue is a minority of idiots spoiling the party for everyone else ; you just can't support those usage patterns over current wireless technologies, not for everyone in the cell. They are quite reasonably ticked off with a minority of the customers degrading their service and making them look bad to the rest.

    If you want industrial quantities of bandwidth, you should be using a landline, and paying for it.

    In an ideal world, marketing would make it very clear what service you were getting, and people would be more respectful of limited common resources, like radio spectrum.

  41. I blew my 5GB cap entirely with work-related data. by israfil_kamana · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I got this for a contract I was working on, and we regularly got dumps of "representative test data" against which we wrote our software integration tests. At least every couple of days, they would push out a 300MB file. Add to that the fact that I was building our automated software build infrastructure using a tool (maven) that downloads dependencies from central repositories (about 80MB for a full pull of all dependencies), and because I was creating the infrastructure I had to blow my system away to test cleanly several times a day.

    I bought it for work, and was presumed to have just been file sharing. I had unpleasant conversations with Verizon. Didn't even have an appeal process, nor an opportunity to demonstrate my situation, nor even the right to ask for a manager. I seriously thought about lodging a small claims court claim for damages, as their cutting me off cost me $1500 in demonstrable lost receipts (i'm paid by the hour) in that week while I tried to research an alternative.

    I finally went with Cingular on their unlimited data plan and they never had a problem with any limits. I also made sure we researched the policies and they said they didn't give even the slightest care how much I downloaded, or if I used it for "broadband services" like music/movie downloads, 'cause that's what Broadband usually means. Other than switching to a Mac and having a bit of irritation geting an ExpressCard device to support the service initially, I've had no problems with it.

    i.

    --
    i - This sig provided by /dev/random and an infinite number of monkeys at keyboards.
  42. Re:Sign the petition by SnowWolf2003 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sign the petition to stop UK ISPs from advertising unlimited packages when there are in fact hidden caps in their un-Fair Usage Policies
    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Unlimited-ADSL/

  43. New! The "Infinity Plus One" plan from Verizon! by jpellino · · Score: 4, Funny

    Even better than unlimited - this one goes to 11 !

    You get the idea.

    "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the America public." - H. L. Mencken

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  44. Re:Whoa! by stry_cat · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is NOT for home internet.
    Not exactly.

    This is for a cellphone.
    Again not exactly.

    The Verizon plan in question is marketed towards business professionals who are on the road a lot and need an internet connection for their laptop. Ture, the EVDO card you get with the plan uses the cell phone network to transfer your data. However it is meant to be your laptop's internet connection. Your cell phone does not use this plan at all.

    I was on the road for a solid month last year and used their little EVDO card. My company is big enough that we have some exclusive deal where we really do get unlimited bandwidth. Just looking at the emails I downloaded in the first week I think I went over the 5GB. In the emails, there were 4 ppt files, 20 doc files, and 1 xls file. That xls file alone totaled just under 2GB (which is the max file size allowed by our server).

    So at least in my case 5GB/month would really not work and I'm lucky to work for a big enough client that they can really get the unlimited bandwith.

    The card was so good (speed was very close to my crapcast cable modem) and worked really everywhere (except in some very very very rual parts of Wyoming and Montana) that I was thinking about getting one for my personal use. Then I saw the that not only do you pay a fifty-some dollars a month but there is also a per kilobit charge on top of the monthly fee too. Now that I see there is a 5GB limit, I'm really glad I didn't get one.

  45. Re:Whoa! by confusedwiseman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, this is intended for a laptop as well. It is intended for PDAs and the wireless broadband laptop cards. The TOS also states that it is not intended to be used as a home (broadband) connection replacement. The plan for PDAs is $45 a month and if you have a voice plan with Verizon, the Access card is $60 per month. If you only have the Access card, and no voice plan with them, it is $80 per month. They say that corporate intranet access is acceptable, but if I connected Citrix at work for much more than 45 minutes or so a day, I would be over very quickly.(I also choke my connection) It works well as remote solution for occasional needs, but I could not survive on 5GB per month. For my normal internet access I would need about 10-15 GB per month. Most of this goes to the occasional remote log in for work. I would need much more if I were to want to do fun things like watch gooTube, stream music, or download ... things.

  46. Truth-in-advertising by ZirbMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Doesn't the US have something equivalent to the British Trades Description Act. If they tried selling 'unlimited' internet access with a limit in the UK it would be, de facto, illegal, whatever the small print.

    Yes, we do. It's called "Truth in Advertising," and it's part of the Federal Trade Commission's job to enforce that business don't lie about their services. We also have the Better Business Buerue as a watch group to identify unfair and unethical business practices.

    Anyone who's had their service dropped by verizon for the 5GB limit, and isn't hosting a pirating service, should be suing verizon under truth in advertising. When you use the word "Unlimited" in big bold letters on the cover of the plan, you can't lie about it in the fine print.
  47. Hahaha by BJH · · Score: 2

    Sometimes I do 5GB+ in a DAY.
    Thank God this stupidity hasn't spread outside the US yet.

  48. Re:Whoa! by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    'unlimited' is used in marketing just like 'free' is. Of course free things aren't free, and unlimited things aren't unlimited.


    However, if someone's advertising campaign gives me a free widget and then later tries to bill me for said widget, we're suddenly in very different legal waters than if my "free" widget came with an expensive service plan that I agreed to (or whatever the hook is). I don't care how jaded you are - there are limits to what companies and their advertisers can do or claim. Its not hard to find examples that comes right up to the edge of that line. But there is still a limit.

    The history of marketing is full of examples where marketing was too clever for its own good. The parent brought put forward a rather dubious example of "all you can eat." No individual is going to eat a literal ton of food. But there have been examples where individuals with appetites have surprised marketers. Red Lobster's all-you-can-eat crab promotion resulted in a $3 million dollar hit on their 2003 3rd quarter earnings.
  49. Re:Where the hell do they say "UNLIMITED?" by networkBoy · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have one of the biggest ISPs for DSL.
    All I had to do was navigate to 3rd level tech support (admittedly a real challenge) to achieve the following:
    Unlimited bandwith flag on my account (normally you start to see rate throttling around 4 gigs into the month).
    Port 25 open.
    Return loss data uploaded to my modem, unlocking that feature set of my modem.

    Really wasn't hard to get them to do either, just politely requested each feature with a nominal justification:
    Port 25 (I want to use my mailserver, not yours. I understand that you are worried about spam from your network, that's why I'm happy to call and ask you rather than being pissed off you're blocking ports)
    Bandwith: (I create and share custom distros over BT, also indy content over BT and HTTP downloads)
    Return loss: (I understand what all these numbers mean as I've been in TC R&D for the last 10 years. I won't need to call you over piddly stuff if I have these numbers and the ability to tweak gain at my end)

    All in all no problem with bandwith or speed.
    -nB

    --
    whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  50. LIMITED bandwidth is no problem ... by CustomDesigned · · Score: 2, Interesting
    PROVIDED there is a meter to tell you how much you've used. My Dad's sattelite service does it right. The limit is spelled out, there is a meter to tell you how much you've used this month, and when you get close to the limit, it suggests increasing your limit by upgrading to the next plan level. Now THAT is smart business.

    I have Cox cable, and although they do a lot of other things right, this isn't one of them. The AUP (Acceptable Use Policy) states monthly upload and download bandwidth limits, but there is no way to check, apart from rolling your own iptables wrapper, how much you've used. You're left with a vague worry that maybe you might be getting close and should put off that big download ...

  51. they're protecting their DSL business by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 2, Informative

    verizon has a data business to protect (FIOS/DSL) and can't let you use the EVDO service the way that you would DSL service. if you paid to use EVDO the way that you use DSL, you might not buy DSL/FIOS, and that would be bad for profits. double digit growth doesn't happen on it's own you know.

    they would love to block more, but all those commie net neutrality hippies would throw a fit. jeez, they act like abusing people's freedom to do what they want with services that they pay for is a crime or something.

    the whole reason that there is one phone company and one cable company in 90% of the neighborhoods in america is to keep prices high and competition low. adding an unrestricted wireless data service of any kind would increase competition and lower prices, and that really isn't in verizon's best interest. the TOS for the EVDO service states that you can't use it as a substitute for DSL. just wait, soon they will call "misusing" EVDO a crime. you're stealing DSL service after all.

    a lot of you people are already stealing residential phone service by using cell phones as substitutes for landline phone service. verizon is clearly not going to let you steal DSL as well.

    at&t and verizon will do everything possible to guarantee that wireless data services are NOT in competition with residential and commercial DSL because those businesses are there to prop up the now useless telephone business. if you want DSL, in most markets, you need to buy a phone line as well. if you can use a mobile phone to make all of your calls AND get highspeed internet access... well you might as well call the telecommunications industry dead and burn the american flag too while you're at it.

    someone else quoted this from the TOS:

    "Unlimited Data Plans and Features (such as NationalAccess, BroadbandAccess, Push to Talk, and certain VZEmail services) may ONLY be used with wireless devices for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email, and individual productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales force, and field service automation). The Unlimited Data Plans and Features MAY NOT be used for any other purpose. Examples of prohibited uses include, without limitation, the following: (i) continuous uploading, downloading or streaming of audio or video programming or games; (ii) server devices or host computer applications, including, but not limited to, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, automated machine-to-machine connections or peer-to-peer (P2P) file sharing; or (iii) as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections . This means, by way of example only, that checking email, surfing the Internet, downloading legally acquired songs, and/or visiting corporate intranets is permitted, but downloading movies using P2P file sharing services and/or redirecting television signals for viewing on laptops is prohibited. A person engaged in prohibited uses, continuously for one hour, could typically use 100 to 200 MBs, or, if engaged in prohibited uses for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, could use more than 5 GBs in a month."

    if your friend lives in an RV, doesn't have DSL, and is using EVDO to get online then he broke the TOS and it sucks to be him. no one puts one over on the phone company. maybe he should drive to some hippy commune where there is muni-wifi.

    --
    sarcasm:
    -noun
    1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
  52. Re:If it has a fixed cost, it has a fixed limit by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 3, Funny

    People just want truthful advertising.

    truthful advertising... that's a good one. it's also an oxymoron, like "political integrity" or "reality television".

    --
    sarcasm:
    -noun
    1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
  53. "just simply?" by rah1420 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    just simply get a nice mail system running on a home computer that gets email via POP from Verizon/whoever and has its own webmail interface (e.g. getting an MTA running on a home computer with Apache and PHP running Squirrelmail or the like and having a dynamic DNS service)

    How is this simpler than "www.gmail.com?"

    Dynamic DNS, fer Pete's sake. The average /.er maybe, the average Joe Six-gig computer user, no way.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
  54. Only 5GB! by backside · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm using Videotron "Extreme plan" (in Montreal) which is actually unlimited. My record for one month is 960GB and I didn't get any letters or phone calls. Bouyah ;)

  55. That's not "unlimited" either by TheAxeMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Even if you could download your limit in one second and get capped at 14kbps the rest of the month, that's another ~4.5GB of bandwidth. That's all that is possible, so your total is only 14.5GB of bandwidth a month. There's really no such thing as "unlimited" bandwidth, there's always a transfer rate cap. They shouldn't be allowed to call it unlimited, because it never is.

  56. They might argue that... by Arceliar · · Score: 2, Funny

    Unlimited could be short for UNbearably LIMITED...

    And anyone with gspace installed could easily get past their 5G limit using only email in under a week.

  57. i think everyone is missing the real point by pretygrrl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm surprised no one is asking why it is that Verizon should want to limit data. I thought - and I may be wrong - that essentially, the total amount of 3g spectrum that is available (i.e. FCC licensed) for U.S commercial exploitation is finite. Meaning, Verizon can't grow the EVDO customer base indefinitely - they WILL hit their total licensed allocation.
    The only way to deal w. this, then, is to do exactly what they are doing. If spectrum is limited, and customers are growing, data must be limited. That's it.
    What they are "calling" it - who cares.
    I pull in 150GB's monthly on my RoadRunner NO PROBLEM
    So it makes sense to me why Wireless broadband gets capped.

    --
    Contemplate the marvel that is existence, and rejoice that you are able to do so.
  58. Re:The Stupid Country by mgiuca · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Heh, a friend of mine was using the term "shaped". I assumed it was some very regal pronunciation of the word "capped".

    Yeah... it sucks. When I said 14kbps, I didn't actually look it up (sorry if I sounded more authorative than I am... someone above said it's actually 64kbps). All I know is that it really isn't usable. Just doing basic web browsing is a major pain. I have to wait for text to gradually appear on the screen.

    I can't remember if this is better or worse than what dialup used to be. But I certainly don't remember dialup being this crappy.