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Does the Windows Logo Mean Anything?
Dan writes "The Windows Logo Program was supposed to be Microsoft's key to ensuring that all hardware devices work well with the Windows operating system. It worked in Windows XP, it would be expected to work just as well in Windows Vista. Unfortunately, there are obvious signs that the Windows Logo Program is no longer a trustworthy standard. Recently, even graphics cards are getting certified without working drivers. The article digs into the 321-page Microsoft Windows Logo Program 3.0 document to find out what the Windows logo is supposed to mean in Vista."
> The article digs into the 321-page Microsoft Windows Logo Program 3.0 document to find
> out what the Windows logo is supposed to mean in Vista.
I thought it meant that the manufacturer had paid a fee to Microsoft.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
But only if you're a laser printer...
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
It clearly states "Certified for Windows Vista"... No word about working condition.
"Stay Away!!!"
This is slashdot.
;-)
I want to know if it is Linux compatible..
Ducks
The truth shall set you free!
The hardware manufacturers look at all the other things that run in a broken, half-assed way on Windows and think "Hell, our stuff works at least as well as all that junk; there's no reason we shouldn't be able to put the Windows logo on it as well."
There is a spellbook here; eat it? [ynq]
3.0 times = 6 6 6
SATAN LOGO PROGRAM!
Isn't Windows Approved a warning message?
Fight Spammers!
It looks pretty cool...
What?
My monitor came with a "VISTA READY!" sticker on it. But what if I wanted to use my monitor with another operating system? Would it not be "Windows XP ready"? Would my monitor refuse to display anything if I suddenly used it with any other operating system? These "certified by Windows" logo (WHQL) things are total buckwheat. They are absolutely worthless.
127.0.0.1
You know as in winmodem or winprinter, a device that has taken much of the logic from the device were it belongs and onto the cpu were it will cause slowdown and despite the fact that software should be easier to update this only means the device will ship with buggy logic wich will never actually get updated.
Windows "ready" meant stay the fuck away. This is crap only a windows user would fall for.
After all, what device does NOT work with windows? For all its craptastic nature the windows OS widely supported and you would be very hard pressed to go into an average store (look, the apple store does not count alright) selling computer components and come out with a device that does not have windows drivers.
The windows logo therefore means absolutely nothing. Never has, never will. It can't, ms can't even certify its own stuff. Let alone others. When MS stuff works with MS stuff, then and only then can they start commenting on others people hardware.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Windows are something a burglar crawls throough and something that you jump out of when there is a fire.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
I can't wait for the fanboys to creep out and tell us that not every device in the world works with Linux.
In the past the biggest problem I've had with drivers are those for NVIDIA video cards.
It would be interesting to know if someone doing a big system roll-out for 100+ users takes more note of driver certification.
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.
Remember when MS Changed the logo?
My Dad's boss thought that the old keyboards with the pre-xp logo they had wouldn't work with the new XP computers they had just received,so instead of arguing with him, They ended up ordering 200+ new "XP" Keyboards.
The funny thing is, even those had the old windows logos on the keys.
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson
The page being linked to has so much advertising-related dreck that it uses 8-12% of the CPU just sitting there. Much more if you move the mouse over it. And that's with popup blocking. There's ad-related Javascript on that page for at least five different ad systems: "Rojackpot", "Google Syndication", "PriceGrabber", "Extreme-DM.com", and "AdSolution". Plus attempts to get the article onto Digg and Reddit.
The article content sucks, too. They don't understand the WHQL process, and don't give any real insight into whether it is broken. It's just a page of junk content intended to fool blogs like Slashdot into feeding them traffic. And Slashdot's "editors" fell for it.
Given that new Macs run Windows (and Apple's BootCamp includes windows drivers for much of the Apple-specific hardware), and that most of Apple's (or other vendor's) peripherals also work with Windows (it's all USB now, anyways), I'd be surprised if you could walk into an Apple store and find much that didn't work with Windows.
So... When will your dad's boss throw out computers that weren't certified as Vista capable?
When I see that logo, it means "Hey, the cost of this laptop includes that of a Windows license that you're not going to use." (I just install Linux.)
That is, when I see the logo I get reminded of the Windows tax that I'm about to pay, and get more annoyed with both M$ and the manufacturer.
I have run out of time in solving Windows problems, no matter what flavor. There is simply too much to put up with and guard against, and the average user doesn't understand and won't study up and remember. It is too time consuming for them and me.
I've just told friends to stop the B.S. & buy a MacMini. $599 and you don't have to worry about BSOD, missing DLLs, hardware that doesn't mount/recognize, etc. They have the screen & mouse and at most need a Mac keyboard. Enough older smaller LCDs are around that you can get them for next to nothing. Plus, if they actually do need to run Win XP, they can do it in Parallels and EASILY BACK IT UP AND RESTORE IT ANY TIME IT IS REQUIRED.
Geesh.
All the toilets and urinals that I've relocated "Designed for Microsoft Windows XP" stickers onto seem to work fine. Just have use a drop of superglue under them to make sure they stay put.
The Windows logo program worked for XP because MS management seems to have been more competent with XP than they have been with Vista. Is this because of top level personnel changes, MS being spooked by increasingly visible competition (regardless of actual threat level to MS) since 2001, or both?
It was never meant to actually certify anything, only give the appearance of such. The fact that it worked for XP is icing on the cake, but the slapdash hardware situation (insane system requirements, spotty device support) in Vista exposes the program for what it is: a way for hardware OEM's to ride MS's monopoly coattails.
What the hell are you trying to say. While I hate winmodem as much as anyone, the first part of you posts makes no sense.
And what if windows OS is "widely supported". Does it means that the OS is "craptasic" in nature? You make it sounds as if "widely supported" = bad thing.
These are engineered trade off. If you want to use an absolutely stable OS with (relatively) little hardware support, use BSD. Windows are designed so that it can be extended easily. Yes it creates misery among ITs professionals, but from the consumers' point of view, they like it. This is why you don't see BSD/Linux overtaking Windows. Consumers _like_ simplicity. They don't want to use ndiswrapper. They don't want to configure their x windows. They only want the damn hardware work as soon as they plug it in. Can you do it with other OSes?
Gosh I can't believe I am defending Windows.
After all, what device does NOT work with windows?
Define work.
It means pain!
So that when you buy it, MS gets some of that cash. Doesn't really mean anything else to me.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
It means J00 4R3 0WN3D
It's a window (reflecting the name and style of the OS) that's flying (because "flying" means "awesome" over at Microsoft, I guess) and each of its four panes are in one of the primary colors (RGB in additive color, Y in subtractive) to represent how bright and beautiful Windows supposedly is.
That is what you were talking about, right?
Rob
Not anymore. Now I would say that /. is split amongst the OSs. If you make a disparaging remark about Windows, even when true, you will get modded down in a BIG way. Near as I can tell, it is not just the fanboys doing this. I suspect that MS has paid FUDers here to try and keep things in check. Finally, I have noticed that the tech. level of /. has decreased significantly over the last decade. That says a lot.
Yes, if normal work is that windows finds hardware and you can have drivers for it. hardware is 100% supported. If "work" means that there is no problems with drivers on normal use and hardware always works how it is suppost to work. then it might be about 90% at most. I had 4 TV cards... 2 Digital and 2 Analog... none of them worked on windows, on linux, two of them worked. Just i needed them to windows box and even tryed them on 3 windows mahines... No help for drivers on CD, updated drivers or even beta drivers... and all was desing for XP. Same thing happened even with MS keyboard, it pressed buttons by self and not always responded to buttons. 2 times i went to change keyboard for new one and always it did have problem... But, not with linux, but on that, those super "fancy" multimediabuttons didnt work out-of-box. So i buyed logitech. RAID PCI cards... i have two samekind and both work great on linux but windows did loose other drive sometimes. And again, Design for XP..... Oh well... i got Vista Beta1 - RC2 versions to test and it was last windows what i have used... now only SUSE is up and running and hardware works great on that, no failures, no error messages... just working like hardware should work on PC. And those aren't even desing to work with linux. And this is even posted with MacOSX what is much better than windows XP or MUCH better than Vista.
A vista certified webcam means it is a satnadard video usb video class cam (like the xbox live camera) and will always work perfectly out of the box with OSX and linux.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Also, please see icon to the right of your summary for clarification.
Tax? Microsoft is no longer the monopoly it once was. It's now easy to avoid paying for Windows, so calling it a tax is unfair.
If you buy from a reputable manufacturer such as Dell, it is easy to get your money back. Just make sure that the disc is still in its packaging and send it back, and you should have your refund within a few days. There are also many manufacturers that sell laptops with an alternative OS installed (or completely blank if you would rather install an OS yourself).
I'll probably be modded down for this...
Look at one of the references in the linked article: http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=393& pgno=1
A "Vista Certified" device that:
A)Is incredibly difficult to get to install, and
B)Results in repeatable on-boot BSODs, and
C)Is incredibly difficult to get to uninstall, *and*
D)Leaves packages on your HD after uninstall that cause repeatable on-boot BSODs.
Either the Vista (display) driver development process is as much of an after-thought as Linux driver development, or Vista's "NEW AND INNOVATIVE" hardware environment is so incredibly buggy that wrestling with all the necessary work arounds is a very difficult task.
My guess? The new Vista driver model is so overly complex that developers will have a hard time working with it indefinitely. Either development budgets will have to go up (unlikely, for ATI and Nvidia, at least), or hardware release cycles will have to slow. Given that Vista has been in *public* development for such a long time (Betas & Release candidates), I'm guessing there is a systematic problem to driver development that most hardware companies cannot adapt to.
Take a look at this: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=357
"Finally, the complexity of these drivers is simply astounding. Diercks claimed that each of the six drivers that NVIDIA has to develop for Windows Vista is roughly 20 million lines of code long; about as much code as Windows NT 4! While I am sure there is some significant driver overlap between the six separate modules and the 20 million lines on each, projects of that magnitude are something most normal people couldnt even begin to wrap their heads around. "
Consider that Vista contains approximately 50 million lines of code, and took 5+ years to develop. Consider that Linux Kernel 2.6.0 was 6 million lines of code, and contains *thousands* of drivers.
Now, does this mean that Vista driver programmers are simply going to give up, Vista will collapse, and we'll all switch to another OS? Of course not; these companies *will* manage to overcome the overly complex development environment, and will create working drivers. In Time.
What we may see, however, is that Linux drivers will start improving faster than Windows drivers; and I can even potentially forsee a day when the Linux binary video drivers beat Vista drivers to the punch, in terms of properly supporting newer hardware. Architectural problems don't necessarily cause development to fail, but serious organizational difficulties impact release cycle, and result in more annoyance and security bugs.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
All it is, is a very expensive bribe to Microsoft that basically forces companies to pay a large fee to have their product "approved". I've gone through the approval process at my last 2 jobs about 4 times for different products -- and it is a total joke. The "test" (if you can even call it that) process is not efficient and is mostly just approved if you have the $$$ cash $$$ to pay up.
This forces out smaller companies of many markets, since the majority of Windows home and even business users are ignorant to the actual process (with good reason of course, they don't know any better). If you're trying to market a product to Windows users, if they don't see that magic "compliant (approved, bought out, bribed, etc..)" logo on the product, it's a lost sale.
The program is a total joke.
It means: Buy Vista Now, and Give Us More Money. What's so hard to understand about that?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Yes, it means you picked up the wrong damned box again.
Caveat Utilitor
Just try bootlegging it and see! :)
.DLLs on those Compaqs...
Like that other poster, I just always assumed it meant they PAID Microsoft, not that it certified anything. I wasted THREE HOURS getting a simple Creative Webcam 3 working on Win98; I took the thing upstairs on a Linux box, and it had created the device, and was waiting on me to open the video! Sometimes they didn't get/keep all the
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
It means, "Your computer will need an exorcist." And that was before Vista.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The page being linked to has so much advertising-related dreck that it uses 8-12% of the CPU just sitting there.
Not bad for IE, are you using that on top of Vista or XP?
Kidding aside, the page is nasty but not so bad as the average MSNBC or CNN monster. For my dinky 1GHz PIII, Konqueror sports between 0.3 and 20% CPU with that and about 50 other pages open. Closing that one page puts it to less than 2%. Neither case has any effect on overall speed and responsiveness of my system. I use it a lot to look at my thesis work, which is why I have so many browser windows and tabs open. The average MSNBC page will actually stall my browser, peg CPU use and mess with my window manager. The article was worth looking at and now it is gone, which is not something I can say for the average MSNBC page.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I agree with the general idea of simplicity. However, as a Linux user since 1999, I sure as hell don't want to use ndiswrapper or some such dirty hacks. In many ways Linux is simpler than Windows, it doesn't get in my way, which is why I like to use it. And I'm not sure where you get the idea that anything works in Windows without installing drivers.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Actually, Slashdot is hosted on a Linux server, so yes, it is Linux compatible. But of course so is the majority of the Internet... http://news.netcraft.com/
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Now, does this mean that Vista driver programmers are simply going to give up, Vista will collapse, and we'll all switch to another OS? Of course not; these companies *will* manage to overcome the overly complex development environment, and will create working drivers. In Time.
Why would anyone waste time on an OS only one in ten people want? Especially when it's expensive and owned by a company that considers them pawns to be lied to and fucked over? It's not in their best interst now and may never be.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
My god, Slashdot renders badly in IE5.0. Anyway, it is amazing how troublesome bad memory can be. I recently installed 'new' hardware in my box, and got the dreaded BSOD. At first I blamed the new hardware, but stumbling over a tip that bad memory could cause those things I ran memtest86+. Several red errors later I'm now running my memory _bellow_ specs, and all is fine and dandy. Sigh.
Point is, some hardware work together perfectly, some don't. I doubt Microsoft ever can be 100% certain your new and shiny graphic card, or mouse for that matter, will work with 100% of Windows systems.
From what I understand it was a way to test vendors applications to make sure that it doesn't cause any problems because because of bad programing by the vendor and to ensure reliablity of windows and other applications. The issue is not every software vendor out there has done this because of cost, time. etc. so unforunatally that's why there is a lot of issues from vendors trying to make a quick buck and not worrying about going through the effort of certifying the program. In my mind that's where a lot of the problems kick in with windows where as in the open source model there is a lot of people already making sure that everything is going to work and with apple they just don't let any vendor do whatever like microsoft has done. If it was used correctly, and every software company made sure they went though the effort and time to do this then that may make the windows world much more enjoyable. What I wonder though is how many people posting here have actually downloaded and looked at that document? I would suspect very little if any, so before you pass judgement make sure you understand the question. Its easy to startup a OS flame ware as we see that every other post anyway, but not so easy to use your brain.
Let the Monks on Mt. Redmond PUBLISH a compendium of all the devices that are logo'd and Redmond will refund your money if they are wrong. And let the hippies in Commune Linux publish a list of all their supported devices too and let the pimp hand of Libertarian Commerce decide. MS shouldn't get a pass for lying, no matter how much they tell you sucking their dick is a virtue.
Require every article that makes the front page to contain only static links.
It's really simple to implement too: Poll every link in the article every 15 minutes and do an MD5(*) comparison. If the site ever fails to load or the MD5 ever changes, immediately pull the article from the front page. This method can be used to handle stories in the queue, too. Require pages to be static for at least 6 hours before consideration for the front page.
And if we really wanted to crack down on advertisement crapfests like TFA, they could add a filter that scans for HTML script tags and immediately assigns a slashdot tag of "scripted". Sites that hotlink to other domains could be tagged "parasite", so people can choose to ignore "scripted parasite" stories altogether.
(* Note: The md5sum would need to apply to included content as well, such as images, css, script files, etc.)
It's like walking into a used-car dealership:
"So, I understand that you sell certified pre-owned cars here."
"Yep."
"What does 'certified pre-owned' mean?"
"It means we certify that it's used."
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
PowerPC?
Anything not x86?
SATA?
You kids, you never fail to disappoint me...
You totally misunderstand them. This is not about technical reasons, nor money paid, nor even the most logical conclusion -- to ensure an equipment is certified to work.
They are a marketing company!
When will you all learn? You're like those simpletons in films trying to use science to fight magic and spells.
It's about domination, learn once and for all. It's burning your cattle with your mark and making sure only your cattle is bought, because everyone demands that mark.
You know those government food seals which say "Inspected" or "Proper for consumption"? That's it, they got their own "seal of approval" to make sure everybody can choose their products.
Of course, out of fear, uncertainty and doubt.
D-U-H !
I've worked with some products before and despite not in any way being responsible for Windows working, I have been greatful for WHQL certification on occasion. I'll discover a problem which needs to be fixed, and unless absolutely completely unable to dodge the issue, they'll ignore it and push back on it to get the product out the door. Then, magically, some one on the Windows side of the company has a WHQL test fail due to my issue, and it suddenly becomes a show stopper.
Once upon a time, we had a very very obscure problem that they shipped that prevented WHQL certification. Until that was going to be fixed, they shipped it as a linux-only offering. Many many expensive weeks of trying to support thousands of these things that were dying left and right finally nailed down what caused the strange sudden deaths of the product, the WHQL-blocking flaw they neglected in the name of getting it out the door for linux...
In summary, WHQL isn't the whole picture, but no company producing hardware regardless of the Windows market should ignore it, unless they have an impeccable testing track record without ever looking at WHQL.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
it's very simple, microsoft is using it's logo testing now to for all functional purposes require device manufacturers to adopt DRM (check out the fine printed links at the bottom.. such as "component revocation")
it's been out there from the EFF & company for years (look at the date on the link).
because of these new requirements for vista logo testing, it's not compatible with XP logo testing, and thus compatibility issues are intentionally arising trying to install xp logo devices/drivers into vista.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
for going out of business... and not expecting RAM prices to go up so high
I think most such keymaps are not produced by the companies themselves, but by the OS community.
So the companies would not be able to guarantee Linux compatibility.
And when it is known that some distro's include the keymaps, it could easly be printed on the box;
Tested on Red Hat ver x.xx, Suse ver x.xx, Ubuntu, Breezy/Dapper/Edgy/Fiesty etc.
For other versions, the keymap can be installed from www.sourceforge.org/logitechM610.html
I expect to see more of this on the box in the future.
Companies which provide their own drivers do provide compatiblilty lists and drivers online. A good example is Intel who has released Linux drivers for much of their Centrino Mobile Technology tm. products.
Some of their older hardware is still unsupported and probably never will. Not enough demand. For example some of their webcams and other toys.
The truth shall set you free!
...Windows Logo Program makes fun of you!
look, the apple store does not count alright
Oh come on! Apple Store clerks wear really thick-framed glasses and use a really edgy brand of hair mousse! How could they "not count"?!?
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Basically for Vista it only means that there is some driver. Nothing about stability or performance. That means it is worth exactly as much as a line saying it supports Vista, i.e. the logo is completely meaningless and only serves to inspire that warm, fuzzy feeling that MS said its ok to use thios hardware....
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
It is too bad it does not stand for Safety, Security, Stability, and Spyware-free.
\
When 95 came out, I heard that to apply for a Windows logo, you had to do at least two things. First pay Microsoft and secondly to have your sodtware have tha ability to be de-installed.
Even back then I don't know how the Microsoft applications were able to get that, because de-installing most Microsoft-made software was unpossible.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
You've got to love it when someone posts a non-sensical promotion for Gentoo that can't be backed up (because apparently they have no idea how other distributions work) and an attempt to call them on it gets modded flamebait, even when the previous poster is an obnoxious jerk in response to a polite inquiry.
And still, we have nothing to back up the bizzaro and rather vague initial assertion...
so that Linux/OS X/etc operators cannot use
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Yes, the logo means:
Danger! Keep Away!
Enter at Your Own Risk!
All Your Rights Belong to Us!
Not Suitable for Ages 2 and Over.
The Surgeon General Has Determined that Windows is Hazardous to Your Health.
Abandon all Hope All Ye Who Enter Here
Banjo - The more I know about Windoze, the more I love *nix
.....No one has said this yet
but I thought we all knew....
Bugs come in through open windows
don't call me rusty
da da da dum indeed.