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Google Earth Highlights Darfur
jc42 writes "Google Earth, in cooperation with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum now presents details of the growing disaster in Darfur. They give a virtual tour of the area, with details of events in many villages in the words of local residents. So in addition to their "Do no evil" motto, they apparently now have a policy of exposing evil. Needless to say, the Sudan government didn't exactly cooperate with this project."
It's time to give up on the "do no evil" crap. Google helps censor the Chinese for a start. They have a mountain of data from logging all their users, definitly a tool for the future Big Brothers of the world.
Lots of large corporations do good things, usually to make it seem as if they 'do no evil'. As Google gets larger, we will see them commit more evil.
Next step? What about showing the destruction of Irak by US troops?
Next thing you know, google will be bringing peace to the middle east and set up a one world government...then we'll know Google is the anti-christ.
In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
US/UN out!
I spent some time surfing the Darfur area.
It speaks it's own language.
I'm not good enough at English to find the right words (English is not my primary language).
However, this is an amazing tool, which other could use to document the horrors of history. Study the Scandinavian history 500 years ago, and you can make a similar map over the southern tip of present Sweden. Check it out for yourself: http://www.scania.org/facts/poster/index.html
Maybe som Palestinian group can make a similar map over, what Israel did to many Palestinian villages from 1947 until today. That would start up a *real* debate, and hopefully we can end the bloodshed there, that once raged Scandinavia.
that the less well-off areas of the world experienced genocide while the rich (that means you, if you have the free time and resources to be reading this on slashdot right now, you are a rich person, really) played videogames
you say you can't do anything about it?
you can
or alternately, if you don't care, do nothing. and don't vote in the next presidential election. and loudly proclaim various opinions on world events. go ahead, be completely hypocritical and useless
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Sagan then defines, what he would call, "The Weasel Rule". Be nice to strong people and be a jerk to weak people. Google caved in easily to strong governments like China and is currently exposing the evil in Darfar. So looks like, Google's motto is "Follow the Weasel Rule" not "Do no evil".
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
... There is no "genocide",
You sir should be put against the wall and shot in the face.
You should have said: Google is nice to strong evil people and a jerk to weak evil people.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
Do you actually have ANY idea what is going on there???
maybe genocide is the wrong word but hundreds of thousands dying and even more fleeing for their lives and living in refuge-camps is not something that is pushed by western governments.
There never was a reason to televise some Africans kill other Africans (in fact one party consists of muslim nomads)
To be specific the whole Darfur crisis is allready several years old most people don't give a damn because there is no oil.
I'm not saying Bush should have led the world in an war in Sudan but it would have probably been more usefull (not counting the oil) and saved more lives.
I'm sorry for not being very eloquent.
But the bottomline is this, the more people know what is going on out there the bigger the chance that something gets done.
It's no big deal some of my best friends are M$ certified engineers
Is Google about to show where the prisons were the Chinese torture people who try and spread democracy?
Do you really think that people dont know you were the grand parent ac you are agreeing with? The very next thread is by you and making the same crazy argument that "there is no 'genocide'"
And by the way a five character post that has more in the title than the comment is not insightful.
If this were really happening, what would you think?
Obviously, you are trolling.
Google Earth (and all similar satelite imagery tools) are just amazing... How long before, for instance, China bans its citizens from using it you think?
In a similar area, Slashdot posted before about maps overAmerican strip mining. Others have collected other links to deforestation, coral reefs, etc.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
Too !
Read radical news here
next thing you know google will be showing pictures of iraq and blaming bush for the disaster that happened there, fukken democrats. you google people need to show patriotism and stop blaming bush, all you libs got is hate for bush. cut & run is not a strategy.
The south will rise again, let freedom reign!!
Many consider revealing private user information to a totalitarian regime with an illustrious history of human rights violations to be distasteful. But remember, Yahoo operate globally and also co-operate with the Chinese communist party.
The Yahoo homepage is a vomit-inducing light blue pastel and red with two tone yellow buttons. Such a tasteless design can only be the result of Indian labor. Clearly Yahoo could employ a western design agency to create a winning design. Unfortunately, such action would not be consistent with the Yahoo ethos.
In conclusion, we can say that by association or action, Yahoo endorse:
I'm sure you all agree that Yahoo is not a winning brand.
If you've got a plan, you should share it. But for a lot of people, it will be a tough sell. Pretty much everyone is aware of what happened when the US intervened in Iraq. Many people still remember Somalia. Why would this turn out differently if "someone put an end to it"? That's a serious question.
I am not a crackpot.
The UN, the EU, and the Arab League say it's not a problem. The US says it is a problem, but is stretched pretty thin right now. So, nothings going to change any time soon.
[Insert pithy quote here]
Is there oil in Sudan, or why...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Actually, Sudan most definitely has oil. Oil rights were one of the primary causes of the recent civil war between the Sudanese government and the Christian/Animist south. (As a reminder, THAT civil war has been settled and was a different conflict than the events in Darfur.) I do not know if the Darfur region of Sudan has oil.
Obviously the situation is complicated, but a lack of intervention will ultimately be worse for the region than any meddling of "imperialist powers". It's really tragic what's happening there and the idea that not doing anything is a better alternative "because of Iraq" is a sad approach.
It's intellectually repugnant, as well.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
You might want to lay off of the Arab media there. I think it's damaging your brain.
I read the internet for the articles.
At first, it surprises me a little that Google is now highlighting the Darfur genocide, because I usually don't see Google participation in humanitarian efforts. But this does generate a lot of good press at very little cost, and that doesn't surprise me that Google would take this easy opportunity to reaffirm their "Do no evil" corporate mantra. Have your PR department post it to Slashdot to reach the IT industry and other likely potential customers.
I don't think it's definitely bad showing people what's going on in the world. The Darfur disaster is not a popular one - everyone knows about Iraq, but few people know about Darfur. Inventing a tool which would encourage people to read / care more about this issue is just a good thing, resulting in higher chance for future actions to solve the problem (foundations, donations, lobby, etc).
If intervention in Sudan will stop the genocide, who the hell cares what the motivation is?
Nobody intervenes to help the Ingush, nobody intervenes to help the Ossetes, nobody intervenes to help the Karens. Look them up.
Nobody intervened to help the Tibetans, nobody intervened to help the Karelians, nobody intervened to help the Andamanese. Look them up too, the Andamanese are fascinating.
Nobody intervened to help the entire population of North America when they were overrun by Europeans and nobody intervened to help the entire population of north-east Asia when they were overrun by Han and Russians and nobody intervened to help the entire pre-Islamic world from Spain to India when it was overrun by Arabs.
Nobody intervened to help the Beaker Folk, the Picts, the Achaean as opposed to Dorian Greeks, the Helots, or the pre-Cro Magnon subspecies of humans.
BUT YES LET'S ALL INTERVENE IN DARFUR. That'll make it all OK.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
If you do a search on "darfur oil sudan" you will find some speculations, that this genocide is clandestinely orchestrated by western agents. Behind the scene it seems to be a covert struggle between China, Europe and US interests for these resources. The humanitarian efforts seem to be misused for gaining leverage. Of course this will be labeled as a conspiracy theory, but a grain of truth is always at the core of such speculations. Also notice how this aspect is not reported by the media.
Armenian Genocide will be also highlighted?
How about Chinese political camps?
Sorry~ more of political "fell good move" on things that very few can argue about it, Google is all like flexing its muscles. Good for them, but too cowardly to deal with other where it might lose money.
Fake brawado on Google part.
You have cites, yet no sources indicating where they were cited from. I'm interested in exploring your points, but can't without any sort of credible source.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
If you don't know anything about American history, don't start spouting off about it. While the total numbers of deaths in the American Civil War and the Darfur ethnic cleansing are similar, most of the deaths in the ACW were soldiers, and the deaths were in the same range on each side (around 300k). Most of the deaths in Darfur are civilians. The Confederacy proclaimed independence and was willing to fight to back it up. They had the resources and technology to wage a strong battle, though they eventually lost, in part due to international assistance provided to the Union.
A better comparison would be the killing of native Americans throughout the 19th century, where hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed and many more displaced from their homes. While the native Americans certainly tried to fight back (as I'm sure the civilians of Darfur are trying to do against the Janjaweed soldiers), it was largely a slaughter due to the overwhelming technology, tactics, numbers, and government support of the United States military.
And guess what? It was wrong then, and such things are still wrong now.
If the independent Islamic government of Sudan doesn't wish to be undermined, it should stop supporting the extermination of civilians and actually resolve this "internal conflict". They do nothing to prevent it - to the contrary, they support the killing - and that's why much of the West is pushing the issue.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,20551 48,00.html
I thought the golden rule was "who has the most gold makes the rules", but i guess thats the same as the weasel rule if you are the strongest.
When I saw the number of fire icons littering the region I was horrified. Then I was amazed at how horrific icons can be.
On the note of things being visible from space, you can peer into Israel and see how the settlements relate to the Palestinian held land.
Israel holds the high ground! Strategery aside, beneath those hills lies the water supply. The palestinians can order water via telephones and big trucks will come to deliver it. Israelis turn on the tap.
While it isn't genocide, the israeli treatment of palestinians sure is malicious. And their walls and settlements are visible from space. Also, with all the uploadability of google earth you can see pictures from ground level of many structures and settlements.
then it is your responsibility
why care about rwanda? why care about iraq? why care about tiananmen square? why care about auschwitz?
why care about any human tragedy? better to just say "not my problem", right?
solves the problem, doesn't it? just stop caring, "not my problem"
"I am not going to adjust my life just to make a few people with bleeding hearts feel better."
good for you. enjoy your life. remember your statement above, when you ask anyone to care about anything you think is important. society is predicated on the fact we look out for each other. if we don't, those who mean ill will succeed: they pick us a part, one by one
so you better care, now, when it is starving people in a third world country being butchered. tomorrow, it is something happening in your neighborhood
poverty and suffering breeds and spreads. it must be fought in all of it's forms, now, today, or that means you only fight it tomorrow, when it is a larger problem. it does not go away on it's own, the sort of problem plaguing darfur. it grows, and spreads. you WILL deal with it, one way or another. when it is small and distant, now, or later, when it is huge and at your doorstep
we live in a world where what happens in kandahar matters in downtown manhattan. what did you learn from 9/11?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
i didn't know my only choice was to shoot people. yes, the ANC should be at the forefront of any military action, which is required. however, military action is not the only way to help the situation, and in that cacapcity, the "colonials" can prove useful
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
They're muslims, this is a jihad against infidels, and thus there is nothing morally wrong with what is happening in darfur. See quran 9:5, 9:111 and others. Also note that rape is explicitly permitted in these circumstances on 4:54.
Note also that other muslim governments, such as Eritrea, Saudi and Egypt are delivering weapens to them to carry this out.
You really wish for a United States where we didn't wipe out the natives? We would now be in a position similar to Israel. We are lucky we took our chance when such things were considered acceptable, because we would never get away with it now. It would be constant and perpetual civil war. We wouldn't have had the strength to win World War II. Germany, the USSR, and Japan would have divided up the world. We would be living as subjects of one of those empires.
Great plan guy. Real humanitarian you are.
Google did evil by posting pre-Katrina shots of N.O. long after the storm went through: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/30/google_reb uuilds_new_orleans/
so now, they're trying to make up with coverage with a different disaster.
I didn't think the house band in Hell would play this badly.
According to this definition, what is happening in Darfur is genocide. One ethnic group (arabic nomads) are attempting to displace another ethnic group (black african farmers) with support from the Sudanese government. Unlike the conflict in South Sudan, both ethnic groups are Muslim, so religion is not an issue - arable/grazeable land and water is.
The reaction of most Western governments so far has been to deny genocide is happening, because that would oblige them to intervene, which they don't want to do.
AARGH can people PLEASE start actually making an effort to see the conflict ?
It's ARAB muslims (the "Janjaweed") on horses that kill the non-ARAB BLACK "abdels" (black slaves), who are both muslim and christian. The government of Sudan describes it as a jihad, and as a result, is getting support, people and weapons, from muslims world-wide.
It's the government there thats DOING the raping murder and burning the villages of the farmers. The rebel groups are fighting to stop the government.
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Basically Sudan will not stop allowing it's Arab militias to have fun ethnically cleansing Darfur until the "international community's" gloves come off when dealing with Sudan. Conflicts like this are hard to resolve at the best of times but the Bosinan experience, where a lot of different approaches were tried, shows us that the relaistic only hope we have of resolving a situation like this even if the solution is only to bring about an uneasy peace with loads of peace keepers to keep the factions apart, seems to be to stiffen up the Darfur insurgents to the point they can kick the Arab militias out of Darfur. It would probably be possible to organize some military help from neighboring African countries who are them selves already suffering badly from cross border raids by Sudanese Arab militias and might see a neutral Darfur as a useful buffer against Sudan. This would eventually allow the UN to impose a solution roughly similar to the ones used in Bosnia and the Kosovo. Of course this relies upon somebody ironing out the internal conflicts among the insurgents as well as uniting the neighbors under a single command and organizing the whole thing. Somebody would also have to cough up a couple of billion dollars for arms and training and possibly provide air support to neutralize the Sudanese air force.
Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
And this is the basic problem with the Liberal cause today. In the late 1990's the US was evil because sanctions were killing millions of Iraqi babies. Now the sanctions are gone the the US is evil for finally deposing the despot who was starving his own people to build castle after castle. Never climb into a life raft with a guy who you know is gonna poke hole in it just to spite you.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Must be nice.
Slashdot shows its maturity once again. :)
That's the most bizarre interpretation of history I have ever seen.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Sudan's best buddy is China (long term contracts for cheap oil and timber and anything else they can rip out of the ground) , which will continue to use their VETO in the UN to prevent any foreign intervention.
You are actually wrong. Poverty and suffering does not spread because some parts of the world have their heads screwed on right and others don't. September 11th was a ONE OFF event. It hasn't happened again in 6 years and its not like that attack was so sophisticated to begin with.
The problem in Darfur really IS Darfur's problem. The violence there isn't going to spread here and even if it were going to then all we would have to do is stop/kill the perpetrators, not help rebuild the country.
If you want to live a decent life then its up to you to make that happen, same as for everyone else. I don't know why certain folks like you keep insisting that we solve every crisis on planet Earth. When we try to do that we get labelled "imperialist." So who's right? The folks who want us to stay out of their business or the folks who want us to get into other people's business? What gives you the position of moral superiority here?
Also, here's some advice. When you tell people that they're letting others die via genocide when they play video games you aren't making any friends or achieving progress. You just piss people off and lead people to conclude that folks with your position are just stark raving mad lunatics.
By the way, what are you doing to stop gang violence in US cities? What about rural poverty in the US? What are you doing to to combat homelessness in the US? Or does Darfur only rate on your radar because George Clooney and Noah Wylie deem it important to them?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
The Khartoum and Darfur armies have comparable military power. Darfur started the current conflict by attacking Khartoum, after Khartoum had stalemated in the civil war in southern Sudan (where Darfur and Khartoum were allies in trying to put down a Christian and Animist uprising). Khartoum's solution is to try and annihilate the people of Darfur, by giving the militias free reign and arms.
In short, both sides are evil.
Well, something has to be done by Muslims, without inclusion of Americans and Europeans. They lost their credibility circa XVII century and they keep losing it...
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
is that problems solve themselves, or that you aren't involved, or that you can make things better by not being involved
no
you must get involved, or problems like darfur spreads. look at the geopolitical environment around darfur. you ask me what the men who are perpetrating the crimes would do next were they to consolidate a base there and take their agenda to the next level. do you think people with ill will and global amibtions don't exist?
0/11 was a one off?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
how blind are you? ever hear of bali? madrid subway bombing? 7/7 in britain? how about what goes on in iraq on a daily basis? who is perpetrating these things?
one off?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. thanks for the comic relief. for all of our sake i really hope you aren't as naive as you present yourself
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
if you will take a moment to think for 0.5 seconds before responding to me, you will find that my words don't match the stereotype you seem to responding to. kindly make sure that the people you target your words with are the actual people who deserve those words
0
i happen to be all for the military invasion of darfur. as of yesterday. and zimbabwe. and myanmar. we don't invade though, because the willpower isn't there, even though it is the right thing to do. there will be a greater cost for NOT invading these countries than the body bags that will inevitably come home for invading the basketcases of the world
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/9/5/172111/719
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I am presenting an unpopular but legitimate opinion. I am not going to shut up just because there is no such button.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
In addition to the information about what's happening in Darfur, why not also give facts about our contribution to it? For example, how many millions of $US go to Sudan each year? How much non-profit money goes to Sudan? After all, if the Sudan is corrupt, then the majority of the money going into it - for any purpose - is quite likely to go to nefarious purposes.
Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
I am pretty sure I am reading less Arabic media than I am using Google News and definitely less than you listening to Fox News, jihadwatch, free republic and similar crap of a media.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Again, as I said in my other comments: West has no credibility in Africa. Period. After slavery, after South Africa, after what French imperialism did to Maghrib, they just should keep mum as fishes.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
the people in al qaeda, evil as they are, they still understand two things about the world you live in better than you:
1. in the age of jet air travel and the internet, there are no borders for anything
2. you are a human being. you therefore count (in their agenda: you can live under global sharia)
there is no morally or intellectually defensible opinion on any issue anymore except a global one. your attitude made sense once, when spanish galleons plied the oceans. those days are over, and so is your worldview
what killed it? globalization. you, reading my words, right now, on the internet, is all the proof i need to show you you are wrong: i could be sitting in calcutta, yogyakarta, or kandahar. it doesn't matter who i am, or what ethnicity, or what nationality: i am impacting your thoughts and ideas
reflect upon the world around you, and how it is changing, and how the way you view your world has been made obsolete
what happens in kandahar matters in downtown manhattan. no one can think like you after 9/11 and expect to have a valid intellectual or moral compass. welcome to the 21st century. re configure your way of thinking. it is obsolete
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Slashdot is all about opinion. But, I wouldn't call you a Troll if 1) You used less inflammatory language and 2) If you included at least a few links that supported your claim. I could easily point you to about 2,000 links supporting the majority point of view. I want to see a few links (outside of the Sudanese government web-site) where there is another point of view.
stopping the salughter in Daufer? What has happened to the idea of "Never "Again? If countries want to say they are moral, with Moral leadership they must act in a moral way. Yes I am talking to you American Republicans, and Isreal. Call your representives and demand of them you want military action to stop the slaughter in Daufer. Ask why no action is being taken, because they are black, and have no oil?
You pick 1947 as the date. Why not 1945, because that might just show what arab/muslim forces did to the jews who had lived there for hundred of years? And why just that region, why not the entire middle east, so that it would also show the larger number of jews who were driven from arab/muslim countries, some of whom resetled in british controlled areas (what Israel was before it became independent) and of whom nobody seems to speak. If palestinians have the right to return why not jews who fled from arab countries?
And would your project also show that many of the palestinians did something roughly similar to this. April 1940, germans and their sympathisers leave The Netherlands, May 1940, german forces attacked The Netherlands. June 1940, in move that shocks the world, dutch forces not just repel the german attack but are halfway to berlin. 1941 to present, dutch/germans who "fled" holland to not be caught in the attack of their allies with the idea that they would go back and claim everything after the dutch had been wiped of the face of the earth, now want compensation.
Sorry, nope.
Learn some real history about the area first.
Oh and remeber, in darfur, it is those lovely muslims that never hurt anyone and follow a peacefull religion that are just defending themselves against the nasty black people, by killing them before they can do anything. Makes sense.
It is kinda funny that the same african (black african nations) that are against america for its role in northern africa at the same time want the US to intervene in Darfur, were the problems are caused by the those same north african nations.
Africa: "Evil US is killing our muslim brothers, Nice US please kill those muslims that are killing our black brothers."
You got to laugh.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I guess I misunderstood the topic. I was hoping that Google Earth had actually captured images of some of the atrocities. Maybe THAT would finally attract people's attention.
Just not in the way you think. Muslims and blacks are fighting and killing each other. So?
It is extremely hard to see why a white european should care OR for that matter even if he cared what the fuck he could do about it.
Who exactly do you propose we shoot?
Because that is the only way to deal with this kinda situation, go in and kill the most agressive party and basically enforce "don't fight or we will kill you".
At the moment some claim that it is the black population that is receiving the worsed of it, so are you saying, in 2007, that the US (because the EU is to chicken shit) should start another war against muslims?
Even americans aren't that insane. *me looks at the americans*
Well, they might be that insane but they can't afford another war that you can't win.
Because the sad fact is this, you CANNOT end a force by conflict UNLESS you use extreme force and that is no longer acceptable. If the US intervenes and just one muslim child is claimed to have been killed (it is well known that muslims claims in this area are about as trustworthy as ANY propaganda claim has been in the whole of human history) the shit will hit the fan and it will face the exact same problems as in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The website you linked to reminds me an awfull lot of similar sites urging the western leaders to save the poor koerds. That went awfully well remember? Do you promise this time to remember what your bleeding heart cried out today when next week a US plane drops a bomb and some photographer show the corpse of a child (and again at another bombsite, several days later?)
No you won't and western leaders know this. They rather take the short, easily forgotten critisim of doing nothing. Because they know people like you, can't be counted upon to accept what needs to be done.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
> Well, something has to be done by Muslims, without inclusion of Americans and Europeans.
And as per tradition, that "something" will be murder. And *lots* of it. WALLYHOO SNACKBAR and OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!
You want links exposing anti-Islamic bias of American government? Are you crazy?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
"just keep mum as fishes."
That's tough to do though. When the West (argue later about just who the "West" is) ignores an area, the world gets angry. They say "You've got all that power, money, all those resources, you should do something to help XYZ. You're doing nothing, you must be evil because you're not stopping out problem. We hate you!"
So politicians turn around and try to DO something, and the world gets angry again. "That is none of your business. You're just being imperialistic. Leave us alone."
Politicians turn around yet again and leave them alone. The lack of "official" scrutiny prompts SOME (by no means all) people to take that as permission to take advantage of their neighbors, and atrocities happen all over again. Now the West is again accused of allowing them to happen. (return to paragraph 1, repeat ad infinitum, ad nausium)
No matter where "The West" turns, it's in the wrong. So, since they're wrong anyway, they might as well be wrong while trying to help someone. Yes, there have been extremely evil things done in the past. The important part of that statement is "in the past." We should recognize those evil things, acknowledge them, apologize for them, and then move on. The past should teach us, yes. It should NOT hobble us so we can't do better in the present and in the future.
how funny, there are troops from all these countries in Iraq! Ethiopia and Eritrea!
those brave boys from the Solomon Islands, which doesn't even have a government (for any accurate use of the word) or a police force, let alone an army. from the CIA world factbook:
yes, that's right, while the brave boys of the Solomon Islands International Rescue Peacekeeping Force were restoring democracy to Iraq, the Australian army was forced to invade the Solomon Islands to restore law and order.you must be trippin if you think that these countries, some of which i've never even heard of, have sent troops to iraq. Palau?
nice try, buddy. it's must be quite a source of amusement to the people running your country that there are people out there who actually believe the things they say.my password really is 'stinkypants'
...that it's awfully difficult to stop murder, hardship and suffering of human beings everywhere on the planet. Every "good thing" we do in the world is offset by another good thing we won't be able to do somewhere else. People who criticize the world's involvement in Iraq (predominantly the U.S.'s involvement now) by highlighting the other things we're *not* doing clearly understand this. It's a matter of optimizing our efforts to cause the most good with the resources we have available. It could be argued that by striking at the global nexus of militant Islam in the Middle East, we can indirectly affect things like Darfur all over the world. It could also be argued that we're fighting in Iraq to ensure a nice flow of oil to the U.S., and we ought to focus our efforts elsewhere, like Darfur. If a U.S. Citizen were to believe the former, the choice to conserve their own personal resources would be a completely justifiable course of action. I don't think we can dismiss people unwilling to contribute resources as simply "not caring about Darfur."
You know what is funny?!?!? This is the first fucking score on a comment I have made in at least 6 goddamn months! The only time you bother to score my comments is when I make on you feel is out of order, fuck you!!!
"My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
I'm as uncomfortable as anyone about what is happening in Darfur, but I'm not gonna get on people's cases for not taking action. There are uncountable horrors happening around the world as you read this, and unless you take a buddha-like oath to never rest until all human suffering has ended, then you are currently not helping resolve some tragedy somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that every single highly-modded preacher in this thread is not doing a single thing to remedy the situation in Darfur.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
People making vein statements about their opposition to genocide just makes me want to puke. Ever since man found a pointy stick there has been conflict and yes large numbers of people do get killed, maimed and wounded. It's a fact of life, get used to it. For many thousands of years these conflicts happened with next to no attention from the rest of the world. Every time a phony internationalist feel-good organization intervenes, they only interfere in the natural order of things and make matters worse. Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) has been made universally worse off for everyone living there thanks to western moral posers, as has Serbia. The war on poverty actually makes more poverty through supporting an unsustainable population that nature would otherwise take care of. People need to start seeing the world for how it actually IS, rather than how they'd like it to be.
You're quite obviously trolling. The Qur'an says absolutely nothing of the kind. In fact, until recently, Islamic states were seen as places of refuge for Jews and non-orthodox Christians (those who did not believe in the "Holy Trinity") due to the religous tolerance there. Instead of being persecuted as they were by orthodox Christians, they were allowed to practice their own religion with the stipulation that they not attempt to convert anyone. Muslims saw Jews and Christians as fellow "People of The Book." The differences came about because Muslims believed that all prophets before Muhammad had been misunderstood, and that God had directly visited Muhammad to establish a "corrective." This corrective became the Qur'an.
This is not about Islam or the Qur'an itself. It is about whacked out religious nuts and their crazy interpretations. Unfortunately, we seem to get these nutcases with every religion.
I apologize for being somewhat off-topic with this post, but I could not bring myself to ignore the parent, even if it is a trolling AC.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
I'm sorry. What part of the following areas are in the United States? "how blind are you? ever hear of bali? madrid subway bombing? 7/7 in britain? how about what goes on in iraq on a daily basis? who is perpetrating these things?"
From the way I recall things, Sept 11th happened in the US, and all the things you just stated happened outside of the US. If I have it wrong please correct me. In the 6 years since 9/11 not another event in the US has taken place.
"you must get involved, or problems like darfur spreads. look at the geopolitical environment around darfur. you ask me what the men who are perpetrating the crimes would do next were they to consolidate a base there and take their agenda to the next level. do you think people with ill will and global amibtions don't exist?"
As for this, we're talking about Africa here. The continent's combined military might (were it ever to competently combine) is not enough to threaten ANY OTHER CONTINENT militarily. Not Austraila, not Europe, not Asia, not South America, not even Central America and certainly not North America. They can't even threaten Antarctica because Africa doesn't have enough coats to survive the invasion.
I would like to know whats your plan for bringing the crisis in Darfur. You said in another post that military options aren't the only way so I'd like to know whats your non-military plan for stopping the warlords in Darfur. Enlighten us.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Yes it's quite strange how so many people are worked up about Iraq, yet don't really care about Darfur. The worldwide protests sound so hollow since their silence on Darfur is even more deafening.
This is just another overlay on Google Earth by a third party, right? It doesn't seem to be in the standard Google Earth. I'm looking at downtown Nyala in Google Earth now, and I'm not seeing any special markings.
There may not be any Google involvement with this at all.
well oddly enough, where in the entire muslim world are there places like this left? and if such places in the past weren't idealisations, what happened?
No, that's not what he asked for. He asked for links, or at least some sort of evidence that is not a Sudanese government mouthpiece, that shows that said government is *not* participating in the mass slaughter in Darfur.
Chris Mattern
In Stupid-land, you probably make lots of sense. Heck, you might even be their leader. Here, you sound uninformed at best. Are you as ignorant of history as you are current events?
In one of your other posts you agreed with someone else that the US is an imperialist force. By that logic, if this were some conspiracy the US would have moved in two years ago. The Sudanese government would be hiding in a cave with the Taliban planning their next move. That, or some CIA guys would have installed a US puppet government there. Neither has happened, so your conspiracy theory is just a bunch of twaddle.
This is a blatant assault on human rights. Governments lie. Refugee camps and mass graves don't.
Go back under your bridge, troll.
blah blah blah
No. I am not.
First of all, I asked you for links that supported your original claim that "Darfur is not genocide. That it is purely an internal civil war". What that has to do with the bias of the American government, I have no idea.
Secondly, the US Government is probably already monitoring any site that you link to. The National Security Agency is more powerful than most of us can imagine. So, posting a link on Slashdot probably isn't going to make one bit of difference.
Third, your statement above is STILL trollish. Start by giving me facts, not opinion. Then, I'll take back the claim that you are a Troll.
You seem to have missed my point here. I'll repeat myself for you:
This is not about Islam or the Qur'an itself. It is about whacked out religious nuts and their crazy interpretations.
The original AC blamed the war in Darfur on Islam and the Qur'an, which is fallacious. The people behind these massacres are not practicing true Islam in any sense. They are extremist nutjobs. A reading of the Qur'an will make this abundantly clear. These people have twisted the religion into what they want it to be, rather than what it actually is. This is a perpetual problem with many religions. There are plenty of whacked out Christian groups in the United States. "Christian Scientists" are an example, and they are but one of many.
Incidentally, and just for shits and giggles, here is a virtually unknown fact: Muslims did not practice the veiling or complete covering of their women traditionally. This was adopted much later. Where did the idea come from? The Byzantine Christians.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
* defending islam
* terrorist dot net email
* claims that muslim states welcome jews (?!?!)
sure says a lot about you, now doesn't it?
Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East: 1776 to the Present There's also his Charlie Rose interview on Google video.
I agree that it's pretty much the point of every media person, including actors, to try and make themselves seem like a better person by promoting anti-genocide Darfur garb. That said, I still don't think what is happening, is right. It's labeled "genocide" mostly because the majority of deaths are on civilian tribes, in REALLY aweful ways. Unlike the "American" civil war, where people faught against slavery, unity and other issues.. these people are killing because they just don't like the other half. It's not just with guns, or one army against the other. We're talking militias going in with machetes, chopping people up, killing by blunt force trauma, killing children and women with NO sense of mercy whatsoever. Like somalia, they're taking the food and blocking shipments of medical goods to starve and sicken those who they don't like. Granted, it's a lot like world politics nowadays... BUT, it's still not right. It's actually an easier solution than the pandora's box in the middle east. On a different subject, more along the lines of the original story. Screw Google. They want to fight for Darfur and pledge themselves for the occasion, but you're right.. it's a publicity stunt. Why do I say this? Google does NOT, under any circumstances, celebrate VETERANS DAY or MEMORIAL DAY. They want soldiers to go in and stop the fighting in Darfur, but they're against war and those who are in it. Even those who fight for their rights to say the bullshit. Soldiers and veterans aren't to blame as much as it is the government. Why would you not support them? That is why it's a publicity stunt. This isn't a flame toward the replied poster. Just my point of view.
"Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
So, perhaps we need an "electrum" rule: Start by treating people as you wish to be treated. When mistreated, respond in kind, but with restraint. Periodically try different levels of golden rule behavior and evaluate the results.
Actually, the game theory folks have done extensive tests of such strategies, and have written a lot on the subject. Their tests usually consist of collecting programs that implement various strategies, and pitting them against each other under the control of a "game master" program that then produces the appropriate statistics.
One of the favorite games has been variants of the "prisoner's dilemma", which you can google for. In a lot of tests, the overall winners have been the programs that implement the described algorithm. Or more simply: Cooperate with a stranger, remember the stranger's actions, and treat them the same way in the next encounter. Interestingly, the best strategy seems to be to have a short memory, forgiving transgressions after one friendly interaction or a long time without any interaction. It seems that the "players" that implement this sort of "tit-for-tat" strategy tend to form stable populations of winners at prisoner's-dilemma games, and players with different strategies tend not to win against these "nice guys with poor memories" players.
Various writers have pointed out that a lot of economic interactions have a prisoner's-dilemma aspect, in which cooperation pays off in the long term, but being a lone jerk pays off even more in the short term.
Of course, in politics we seem to have a lot of situations that are long-term stable disasters. This may be because politicians tend to do what the US government has done recently: Hit strangers with pre-emptive attacks. This has led to the results that we're all too familiar with, and these results may be long-term stable.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
I agree that it's pretty much the point of every media person, including actors, to try and make themselves seem like a better person by promoting anti-genocide Darfur garb. That said, I still don't think what is happening, is right. It's labeled "genocide" mostly because the majority of deaths are on civilian tribes, in REALLY aweful ways. Unlike the "American" civil war, where people faught against slavery, unity and other issues.. these people are killing because they just don't like the other half. It's not just with guns, or one army against the other. We're talking militias going in with machetes, chopping people up, killing by blunt force trauma, killing children and women with NO sense of mercy whatsoever. Like somalia, they're taking the food and blocking shipments of medical goods to starve and sicken those who they don't like. Granted, it's a lot like world politics nowadays... BUT, it's still not right. It's actually an easier solution than the pandora's box in the middle east. All US bashing aside, it's still a bad situation.
On a different subject, more along the lines of the original story. Screw Google. They want to fight for Darfur and pledge themselves for the occasion, but you're right.. it's a publicity stunt.
Why do I say this?
Google does NOT, under any circumstances, celebrate VETERANS DAY or MEMORIAL DAY. No "google" logos for the occasion or even a mention of it. You can search to see exactly what I mean.
They want soldiers to go in and stop the fighting in Darfur, but they're against war and those who are in it. Even those who fight for their rights to say the bullshit. Soldiers and veterans aren't to blame as much as it is the government. Why would you not support them? That is why it's a publicity stunt.
This isn't a flame toward the replied poster. Just my point of view. Great convo, nonetheless.
"Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
I'm actually aware of this research.
My point is consistent with that research, but somewhat different.
Economic models are based on either perfect information, or perfect meta-information: you either know what's going on, or at least you are aware of how much you know.
My point is that sometimes -- in fact often -- we believe things which are not true.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I'm simply amazed and appalled, with exception to the parent post, all the posts so far about China have to do with respect to censorship. Talk about a bunch of babble from lemmings.
Doing a quick google search uncovers Sudan is in China's pocket: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/sudan1103/26.htm
We don't need to intervene, but it is a good idea for us to stabilize these regions before they spin out of control. I don't think military intervention is the best idea; I think that people are most peaceful when they have the most to lose. Instead, we let their infrastructures get destroyed, large itinerant populations to arise, and wealth to be suspiciously dealt to only a few. Wealth, like power, is best distributed as evenly as possible. The result of allowing wealth to concentrate in one place is that it creates a class of dispossessed; never as easy to deal with as we'd like to think. Any sane person would pay attention to these issues for their own long-term interest, if not for their humanitarian nature; especially if they're hands-down the richest country in the world.
In short, of course we shouldn't gut our way of life in an ill-aimed crusade to save the world. But we should share the wealth, and we should never believe that we are somehow more worthy of the wealth than the poorest of the poor in the backwater countries that are experiencing such strife. Realize you did not work for your wealth; you were born into it.
[Ego]out
I've seen tons of complaints here and attached to the original article page demanding why google maps doesn't highlight [insert favorite genocidal nightmare here]. Remember that what they're doing is free. They didn't have to do anything at all -- which I bet is what 99.9% of all the bitchers have done about [insert favorite genocidal nightmare here] or Darfur. So quit your bitching and learn. Maybe ... just maybe google plans to expand what it's doing to other issues. They didn't add a "Global Awareness layer" to the application just to highlight one issue did they?
Didn't google replace the new images of New Orleans with katrina damage with the previous images to hide the devisation?
Does this include Iraq under Saddam? And no, not everything you disagree with is a "troll." This is a serious question. How is the Darfur civil war, albeit horribly tragic, any more fixable than the Shia-Sunni conflict in Iraq?
or vis the UN
The UN? You must be joking. That impotent, decadent, cowardly organization has done zero (or worse) for human rights, and has only made it harder for the few honorable brave countries (like the US) to take action on anything.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
It can get wearying at times the constant battle against the socialists on this site but here I go once more unto the breach....
There's a difference between stabilizing an area and just outright transferring wealth to an area. If I have slandered you by calling you a Socialist then I most humbly apologize and offer to reimburse damages to your Slashdot persona by paying you 500 digital simoleans, but if I am correct then at least let me hope that you have everyone's best interests at heart.
You are correct that nations with huge amounts of economic inequality that there is less stability. The way you worded your solution however makes me cautious and suspicious. Its definitely a problem that needs to be worked on. The gap between rich and poor does need to be kept as small as possible. But how do we get there? Outright transfers of wealth from the wealthy to the poor? Or rather should we provide more education and opportunities for the poor to enrich themselves and build their own wealth? If you word it one way it sounds like SOCIALISM which well in my book = BAD, but if you word it another way it sounds like a slow evolution towards a freemarket economy and away from centrally planned socialist economies which = GOOD.
If you'd like to know which method is more likely to prevail and achieve success then take a look at this talk given at the TED Conference about the "Debunking Myths About the Third World" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUwS1uAdUcI
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Albanians permitted large scale ethnic cleanings which are also prohibited by international law.
International law is not comparable to national laws. It is comprised of a large number of international treaties and traditions, which are not free of contradictions.
Ethnic cleansing, while forbidden in the Geneva Convention (and similar treaties), is largely accepted by the world community. The recent history is full of exchanges of population. 12 million Germans were forced to leave Eastern and Central Europe in the aftermath of WW2. The partition of India led to an exchange of a similar amount of people. A large number of Greeks were forced out of minor Asia in the 1920's, and Turks left Greece. These were all horrible events, and certainly not bloodless. But no mainstream politician suggest that they should be reversed. The reason is of course that these events are assumed to have significantly lessened the ethnic tensions and reduced the risks of war and genocide. Greeks and Turks have probably been happier as a net result. Those are effects on a statistic level, and are of course difficult to commensurate with personal experiences of expulsion.
i AM talking about the worst thing in the world! are you telling me people are of mixed opinion on genocide? are you telling me there is something more pressing than mass extermination and murder?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
america's problems are trivial as compared to hot spots in the world, and even from a purely selfish point of view, 9/11 proves that they matter domestically. in other words, welcome to the 21st century: there are no such thing as american problems, or chinese problems, etc: there are only world problems
furthermore, that china or europe doesn't help is not an excuse for america not to help. if america helps and the others don't it is to america's credit, and china and europe's shame. so yes, i agree with you: hey you fucking euros and chinese, help!
but not helping because others don't is akin to not helping a pedestrian being hit by a car because no one else walking by the dying man is helping him. is that a valid excuse you can live with? do you have a conscience? because others don't have conscience it is ok for you to disavow your humanity? pffffffft
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Genocide is the killing of a significant portion of an ethnic group with the intent of wiping the said group out. It is killing a culture, not killing the individuals. Ethnic cleansing which kills a lot of people, but where it is clear that the ethnic group will survive and be able to sustain its culture is clearly different from genocide.
E.g. tribe A displaces tribe B from their homeland into the desert. Tribe B
dies of because of the thirst (die-off may be slow, stretching for several generations).
(by the way, I've read that in israeli/palestinian conflicts there were some dirty
games played with access and use of water - very relevant)
Is your implication that the Israelis are somehow involved in a genocide on the Palestinians? It must be a very ineffective genocide. Over the past 60 years the numbers of Palestinians have at least quintupled.
It's time to give it up... agreed! So why was it brought it up?
This extension of Mizaru, Mikazaru & Mazaru has the same problem..evil is subjective. Google will always be doing something evil according to somebody. One person is glad for the kind of search optimizations and experience that Google offers, using said same data collection, and another cries "Big Brother". By _my_ concept of evil, had Google kowtowed to requests to turn over its info, I would have dubbed it so. By yours, it seems, that Google, a search engine, is so because it *gasps* collects search data. Or is it evil because it is good, no, the best at it?
But since we are defining... anyone ever bothered to remember Google's own use of "evil"? It was used solely w. respect to how they use\display ads, not this wide ascription to everything it does. Large corporations, like itself, will do a great many things. (And when we say large we're really saying multi-national multi-tasking.) Someone cited Google China under another parent, as an example. Well, multi-national players are subject to multi-national regulations. What? Did no one notice China censors (everything) heavily before Google came to town? Because Google is so large it gets to ignore them in the name of "the Greater Good"? Nay. It has to play by them or seek to change them.. legally. Because when they do ignore them *coughsoftwarecopyrightinfringementcough* there is someone in the wings waiting to cry "Evil!" once again.
So no, Google can't please every person, but at the same time, persons should cease throwing "evil around". It is not excused by Google introducing the word in the first place.
"Moral indignation is just jealousy with a halo."
Is this the same Google that's no longer displaying NOLA photos showing damage from Katrina?
Accuser should prove the accusations.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
You prove Sudanese government participation in this. I do not have to prove anything.
Genocide is a systematic extermination. There is no systematic extermination like it was in Bosnia, with camps. There are attacks on civilians, there are civilians deaths, like deaths in any dangerous area of a conflict.
The term "genocide" is deliberately used by Western propaganda spear headed by Zionist masters instead of milder terms.
I frankly could not care less how you and your neocon moderator friends label me. So you can take it back or to your back. I do not care.
Now get lost.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Then be enlightened:
8 _txt.htm. htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/02/darfur1022
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/19/darfur9096
By the way, most Africans who were sold as slaves to Europeans in the Americas were captured by other Africans from neighboring tribes. Their treatment by Europeans was wrong, but according to your faulty logic, their African captors did nothing wrong.
ethnic cleansing and genocide are roughly the same thing. If a systematic programme of rape, systematic killing of children and babies, and regular attacks on noncombatant civilians is taking place, it's the same thing. That is what is reported as happening by all kinds of human rights groups, and not just the western media.
As to the involvement of the Sudanese government...ok, let's visit stupidland where you apparently live. The janjaweed are just in Darfur because they have nothing better to do. Khartoum has nothing to do with it. Nope, not a thing. A government that stands by and watches when its citizens are slaughtered is just as culpable as one who is actively supporting it. Silence is tacit approval.
I am sure the truth is probably somewhere in between what is actually being reported by the media and your perspective, which apparently is that all is peachy in Sudan and the world just wants a pretext to invade Sudan. I am sure other nations have ulterior motives in wanting to get involved in Sudan. But in the end, if a government is *that* negligent, or worse yet, that evil, then they have to be accountable.
You are probably a muslim. I am not. But what say you about the fact that these are Muslims killing Muslims? Doesn't the Koran condemn that sort of thing? And if you say it doesn't, you have been brainwashed by some militant cleric and are ready to blow something/someone up. And if so, what makes you different than a "christian" who condones the killing of more Muslims in the middle east? Killing in the name of religion is the same thing no matter what your religion.
blah blah blah
Nah, I don't think I will. I'm kind of enjoying pissing you off. You deserve it after being nothing but a fucking troll all day.
Zionist masters? Western Propoganda? You really are a fucking idiot. What about the government of Chad? Chad isn't exactly in the 'back pocket' of either Israel or anyone in the West, but they blame the Sudanese for for supporting the Janjaweed when the Janjaweed crosses from Sudan INTO Chad and attacks Chadian citizens!! Yeah, that's western propoganda.
How about the fucking African Union? They CERTAINLY aren't supported by ANYONE in the west. But, if you actually click the fucking link you will see they have humanitarian troops in Sudan. And, the AU is complaining that the Sudan Army is attacking those troops! Why? Those troops certainly aren't doing anything in the Civil War
How about the Central African Republic? Most of the citizens in the Western World couldn't even find the country on a map. But CAR blames Sudan for unrest on the border between the two countries.
How about the United Nations? The UN, which, if anything, is actually anti-Israel & anti-US, has a major humanitarian program going on in Sudan. The humanitarian effort is focused on three areas: East Sudan (home of thousands o Ethiopian and Erirtrean refugees, South Sudan and Darfur. If you have the fucking guts to read my link, you will see that one of the primary goals of the Sudanese Refugee mission is to PROTECT the refugees from intimidation. And their chief problem is armed conflict.
Now stop spouting your conspiracy theories. You trolled for a response, now I'm going to stick around and continue to annoy the fuck out of you. Give me FACTS! Don't just spout off talking points that were distributed by your local mosque.
As for me begin a "neo-con", you should realize that I am a proud Democrat. I voted against that idiot George Bush two times. I dislike George Bush. I dislike his policies. I was against Iraq before THAT war even started.
Hmm your now spreading half truth's, please read something (for instance the Wikipedia article) about the Darfur conflict before spreading more misleading information. You will see that what you just said isn't exactly accurate (not wrong per sé, but still misleading).
Either that or it ends when one side is exterminated.
-- Will program for bandwidth
That's it! I tried to stay silent and not feed the troll, but the last comment was enough."Zionists", "Neocons"??? Why not go ahead and say what you really mean? You want to blame it on "teh Jooz", which is a form of covert antisemitism that has become quite typical of the far-left/Islamist propaganda machine. You people slaughter innocents like cattle and teach children to hate before you teach them to read, and then find a way to tacitly blame it all on "Zionists" and "Neocons" and what have you through numerous association fallacies, sophisms and other BS that is characteristic of the perorations of fanatic Muslims and their moonbat allies Then you expect the civilized world to take you seriously? Please! Put your tinfoil turban back on and slink back into your madrassah, we're all stocked up on crazy here on slashdot. And don't expect any sympathy from a non-westerner non-"Zionist" like me when a missile with your name on it sends you to the Dargha where you belong. Khuda Hafiz!
Don't expect others to defend you.
It's quite reasonable to expect people to defend to the death their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
One thing that has always bothered me about Haitian, Cuban, and other nationalist protesters in the U.S. has been that, rather than staying and fighting to change their country, they come to the U.S. and stage large rallies to attempt to pressure the U.S. government to send U.S. troops to their former countries to die in their stead.
I imagine that a lot of the recent immigrant strife in France has struck the majority of the French people, particularly those descended from families whose members gave their lives in the French revolution, the same way.
If you want your country to be free, be willing to stay there and, if necessary, pay for that freedom with your life.
I expect that this is something only citizens of countries which have lived through a revolutionary war, and won their freedom at heavy cost, can understand.
- X
"This is not about Islam or the Qur'an itself. It is about whacked out religious nuts and their crazy interpretations."
Of course they are.
"...that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."
* defending islam
What, exactly, is wrong with defending Islam? It has been skewed radically by extremist whackos and the West alike.
* terrorist dot net email
It is referred to as being facetious. The intent is to piss off those who buy into the "neo-Red Scare" of "The Terrorists." It would seem that it works rather well.
* claims that muslim states welcome jews (?!?!)
You are turning my comment into something which it is not. I explained that, until recently, Islamic states were tolerant when it came to other religions "of The Book." At no point did I say that this is predominant today. Unfortunately, extremist nutcase contingents have taken over in quite a few cases. I have a personal opinion as to why this is happening, but it is not relevant to this discussion.
sure says a lot about you, now doesn't it?
Yes, I believe it does. It says that I am a rational, logical human being who weighs issues and bases inferences upon facts rather than hype or propaganda.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
My point is that sometimes -- in fact often -- we believe things which are not true.
Indeed. And some of the game theory research has dealt with this. For example, in a number of the tests with humans or software, the testers would lie to the subjects about the actions of their opponents. In some cases, this altered slightly the rankings of strategies.
It's a fun topic to read about, and there's a lot to read about it.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
How about Metalaw instead?
"Do unto others as they would have you do unto them".
Reference:
Andrew G. Haley
"Space Law and Metalaw - A Synoptic View."
Rome: Associazione Italiana Razzi
Proceedings of the Seventh International Astronautical Congress, 1956.
-- Terry
You deny that it was a possible outcome? Please elaborate.
What about religions not of the book? How did they treat Hindu's, etc? Hmm? Also, the thing is, Mohammad said many times that Muslims must fight and die in the name of god, that they will be rewarded with 72 virgins and that they should kill infidels. Just because Christians and Jews were considered people of the book, doesn't mean this same "tolerance" was extended to other religions.
First link is BS, second is worth looking at.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
What are you smoking? I said there is civil war over there, period. The international media guided by American imperialism is playing on one side, the side of the rebels. That is what my comments about, not about "rosy".
Now, please continue arguing with the strawman.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
You think civil war and ethnic cleansing are mutually exclusive? Come on.
What this boils down to is that you are saying that 1) people are not really being massacred in Darfur, or 2) that they are and it's all OK because it's civil war.
Which is it? Honestly? Am I missing a third option? Please, educate me.
blah blah blah
What about religions not of the book? How did they treat Hindu's, etc? Hmm?
... the thing is, Mohammad said many times that Muslims must fight and die in the name of god, that they will be rewarded with 72 virgins and that they should kill infidels.
Muhammad himself was a pagan for roughly half of his life. After founding Islam, though, he and his followers were persecuted by the pagan tribes of Mecca, resulting in their immigration to Medina. There was then a war waged between Muhammad's followers and the pagan tribes of Mecca. The Muslims were vastly outnumbered by the tribes, but eventually they were victorious. Afterward, Muhammad walked into Mecca and, instead of pillaging, raping, and murdering, as victors were wont to do at that time, he invited them into the Umma. The problems arose once Muhammad died, and the caliphs took over as leaders of the Umma. This is when Muslims really began to spread Islam beyond the Arabian Peninsula, encountering resistance and launching invasions, as in the case of India. It definitely did turn into a crusade at that point.
This is completely, utterly untrue. I am unsure exactly where you got this from, but I suggest not using it as a source of information any longer, because it is painfully biased.
I'll assume that you are speaking of Jihad, which has been, as usual, horribly misinterpreted (whether intentionally or not) by portions of the West, as well as Islamic extremist contingents. Jihad, in the context of the Qur'an (in other words, the correct context), is mainly about nothing more than self-improvement; the effort exerted to change oneself. There is also "Jihad of the Sword," but it is nothing like what you are assuming. "Jihad of the Sword" is only to be used against oppressors and those who persecute Muslims. It is about self-defense, not offense. Since everyone has come out of the woodwork with out-of-context snippets of the Qur'an, I'll attempt to negate them with one that is actually within context:
God does not forbid you, regarding those (pagans and other non-Muslims) who did not fight you because of your religion, and who did not drive you out of your land, that you be good to them and treat them justly. Allah only forbids you regarding those who fought you because of your religion and drove you out of your homes, and came to the help of those who drove you out, that you should befriend them. Any of you who befriend them (and be their allies) are transgressors. [60:8-9]
I am not attempting to slight you with a history lesson here. I just find the level of misunderstanding in the West regarding Islam to be simply ludicrous. If an atheist like myself must defend the true meaning of a religion, then something is terribly wrong with the situation.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
I said what I said. Calling it a genocide is an exhaggeration. It is nowhere near genocide.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
hmm...I, like you, have no way of verifying what is happening in Darfur firsthand. Both of us rely on secondhand knowledge (making what I believe to be a safe assumption). However, I have to go with the human rights groups, charity aid organizations, UN reports, and then the media on this one. If it were just the media saying this, then I might have to agree with you. But it's more than that. In fact...
To wit, there is nobody saying what your are saying, except those who have some political interest in keep the status quo in Sudan. It seems you are taking their stance. Why is that? Is it because the government in Khartoum is an Islamic one? Is your religion blinding you to what appear to be the facts? I ask that sincerely.
Every Muslim should understand how disaster results when religion and politics get intertwined. That has been the problem with so-called "christianity" for centuries now, and often Muslims have been the target of their hate campaigns. Now Islam is just as bad. It's a classic example of someone long-oppressed becoming just like the oppressor. Sad.
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I am not pro-Sudanese government. If you know both sides of the conflict are Muslims. That is why the conflict should be resolved by international islamic community.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Interesting idea, and I see your point. Do you see that happening? Is there some movement to do so that you are aware of?
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There are moves but they are inadequate.
For a Muslims losing the faith is much worse than losing the life. That is what going to happen. As a result of Western intervention may be less people die in the armed conflict (though we know it is not true - take Iraq: Saddam killed less people than the number of people were killed during the Iraq war), but more people will die (naturally or else) not in a state of Islam, led astray from the right path by Western consumerism, capitalism and all other isms.
Death is short, even shorter than life, but the afterlife is eternal.
Muslims do not mourn death but we are requested to weep on the fate of those who died not in the state of Islam. THAT fate is horrible.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I am not so ignorant as to say that all Muslims agree or are just like the few who engage in terrorism, like many here in the US would like to believe. With what you just said, though, how then do you think terrorists can justify killing non-Muslims? To be fair, I wonder how "christians" (note my use of quotes) can justify killing others too.
As a Christian, I believe that we should not get involved in the wars and politics of the day. Jesus didn't when he was here on earth, and that's the example we should follow. He taught love for neighbor. Europe and the US are not and have never been Christian. It's always been a bastardized form of it, mingled with politics and the pursuit of corrupting power. It's unfortunate that people judge a religion and it's text (the bible) based on the mountain of misdeeds performed by those who claim to follow it.
Why do I say that? Because there are Christians who hate injustice and the greed and commercialism that they live in the midst of. I think that sometimes just as Muslims are labeled as terrorists in the west, all claiming to be Christian are lumped together as greedy commercialists. I just want you to know that not all Christians are in support of the what you call imperialism. There are a few of us who stay out of these conflicts, trusting that God will deal with these things in time, and will do so far better than we ever could. We stay out of these things. As Jesus said, we are no part of the world. We have to fight against the corrupting influences around us all of the time.
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Second, Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, says in the Noble Qur'an that unjust killing of a one person is equal to killing the whole humanity (there is no indication that by "person" He meant only Muslims). The exegesis of this part of Qur'an says, in particular:I do not know who is really performing those acts, whether they are Muslims or not, but I cannot find justification of killing obvious civilians. The only phrase from Allah's words that some people could use for justification of killing civilians (who are not obviously legally convicted murderers) is "spreading mischief on earth". This phrase is very general and it might be explained deeper in the Sunnah of the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam. I am not a scholar, but to my knowledge I do not see any examples of military activities of the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, His Companions, radi Allahu anhum, including Four Rightful Khalifas (abu Bakr, Umar ibn Khattab, Uthman and 'Ali), that can be used as analogy for bombing civilians. But, again, I am not a scholar. I can surely say that there is no consensus of scholars on these matters, which (disunity) is a big test for Muslims, or/and big punishment for disobeying orders of Allah.
In another Hadith (the authentic report of the saying of the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam), He, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, said that three types of people are most hated by Allah and He mentioned among them a murderer.
May be some people do not realize, that Islam is quite organized religion, encompassing all aspects of human life, but the enforcement of Islamic code on many of those aspects is contingent on the presence of Islamic rule in the land, Khailifa. This, to my knowledge, include all the military actions, because the first ever organized military action happened when the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, has already formed first Islamic city-state in Madinah. There was one isolated killing of a non-Muslim by a Muslim before that, in Makkah, but that was self-defence, as far as I remember the history of this event.
Everything that I said wrong is from me and me alone, and everything that I said right is from Allah.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Muslims rever and respect Jesus Christ. We believe that He will return back closer to the end of times (that will constitute one of what we call Major Sings of the Judgement Day) to establish Islamic rule on Earth. We also believe that after Jesus, 'alaihi wa salaam, returned to his Creator, the Christianity was deformed, and people followed not what he taught, but their own innovations. That is why Allah sent down the Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, the last Messenger, and revealed through him the Noble Qur'an addressing the whole humanity and all life forms with free will.
All the Prophets told us and gave us example on that, that we should live not for the worldly things, but only to please the Creator. That definitely excludes the rule of rampant materialism we observe in so called civilized world: the rule of money and greed, that caused feminism (through the need of exploitation of cheeper labor), moral ambivalency in consumerism (homosexuals as a consumer group), okhlocracy (catering to the mob, which is wrongfully called democracy) and many other deseases of society.
Muslims are not communists and lawful trade and business are allowed and the private property of the owner is protected by the decree of Allah. But the business has to be lawful: merchants and manufacturers should not involve in businesses that corrupt the society (the industry of indecency: movies, games, art, rap, fashion, business of tobacco products and alcoholic beverages) and they should be honest in their business transactions (that covers a lot of YRO topics).
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.