Bill Gates' Management Style

replicant108 wrote in to give us Tom Evslin's fascinating account of working for Microsoft in the early 90s. "So you're in there presenting your product plan to billg, steveb, and mikemap. Billg typically has his eyes closed and he's rocking back and forth. He could be asleep; he could be thinking about something else; he could be listening intently to everything you're saying. The trouble is all are possible and you don't know which. Obviously, you have to present as if he were listening intently even though you know he isn't looking at the PowerPoint slides you spent so much time on. At some point in your presentation billg will say "that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." He looks like he means it. However, since you knew he was going to say this, you can't really let it faze you. Moreover, you can't afford to look fazed; remember: he's a bully."

Comments

Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[N8F8]

The most important thing to have for any project is a CHAMPION. So if you aren't ready to champion your own idea then you are wasting everybody's time.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[TheRealMindChild]

But not everyone can be a champion. You have to have followers to have leaders. Just because you are a follower doesn't mean you aren't smart, or not worthy of working on X project. You know what happens to corps where the leader/follower ratio is skewed? DOWNSIZING.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[AKAImBatman]

True enough. Though if you found this article interesting, you should try reading Barbarians Led by Bill Gates. It's an insider's perspective on the going-ons inside of Microsoft in the early days. It's especially freaky to learn that they started coding much of Windows in BASIC. (Which I suppose comes as no surprise given that the Microsoft of the time was known as "the BASIC company".) Just like in this article, Gates was described as the King of the Hill with whom very few of the developers wanted to tangle.

A particularly amusing anecdote was when the author was working on a clock application for Windows. He found the BASIC flood-fill routine to be buggy and quite poor, and set about to rewrite it. He then headed for Gates' office to tell him that he wanted to replace the existing flood-fill routine "because it was crap". (Or something to that effect.) Some of his coworkers tried to warn him off, but he headed straight in and showed off his work to Gates. After forcefully championing his work to Gates, Gates agreed to allow the fix. As he came out of Gates' office beaming, one of the coworkers said to him, "You know who wrote the original flood-fill routine, don't you?"

Yep, it was Gates. And the author had just told him that his code was crap to his face. Doh! :-P

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Maestro4k]

The most important thing to have for any project is a CHAMPION. So if you aren't ready to champion your own idea then you are wasting everybody's time.

There's a distinct difference between expecting someone to champion their project and being a bully and abusing them verbally. Telling every person that their project idea is "the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." is just being downright mean. Especially when you just glare at them coldly after they defend themselves (as the article points out).

And then you get people who'll imitate the behavior without the smarts to back it up, so it becomes nothing BUT abuse. (Middle management for example.) I think Bill's management technique explains a lot about Microsoft's behavior over the years and why they're so disliked in the technical community. In fact looking back at how MS acted during their two biggest trials (the US anti-trust and EU anti-trust) you can see this "bullying" all over the place. Acting like a bully when you're the defendant in court is not a good idea. It'll just piss the judge (and possibly the jury) off, and they're the ones passing judgment on you.

Besides, it's not like this technique has worked incredibly well for MS, especially in areas like security. MS has also put out some really lousy stuff over the years, like MS Bob, that were apparently "championed" all the way to release, then bombed. Maybe if Bill had developed a culture less focused on bullying they could have avoided some of those things, and saved money. When you force every one of your employees to defend their projects in such a manner then how many are going to be willing to listen when people point out problems with them? You can't have any second doubts if you have to defend your projects constantly, so people will stop listening to any criticism, leading to lower quality all around.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[N8F8]

Whatever you choose to believe from your limited insights in MS or any other company's management, in the end there has to be that person who has the balls to have a vision and follow through with it. It's also true that is is very difficult to be an effective leader and be liked by all the folks working for you. Few people like having to answer to authority, be held accountable for their actions or do what it takes to get the job done - no matter what.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[JacksBrokenCode]

But not everyone can be a champion.

Read TFA. "That meant that I and the other product managers...". Not everyone has to walk into a meeting like this with billg and stand this trial by fire. If you're a product manager, you should be the ultimate champion of your product.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also true that is is very difficult to be an effective leader and be liked by all the folks working for you.

There is a difference between being a leader and being a commander. People follow a leader by choice. A commander is obeyed only if he has the power to back up his commands.

A leader need not be liked by those beneath him but he does need to be respected. Gates by this report is not a leader but a commander who rules by fear if not terror. A commander who rules in this way has to always worry that those below will rebel and destroy them.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[ShieldW0lf]

It was a test. And you failed. All of us.

Like I was telling my daughter yesterday, the appropriate thing to do when you meet such a person is to drill them in the nose with your knuckles as hard as you can, unless they outweigh you by a significant margin, in which case you should hit them with a chair until they crumple to the ground.

This is how you deal with bullies.

You certainly don't turn yourself one after another into his bitch and make him rich as reward for his antisocial behavior.

I bet Bill wears an "Everything I needed to take over the world, I learned from the bully in kindergarten" T-shirt to bed as a nightie.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[kestasjk]

MS has also put out some really lousy stuff over the years, like MS Bob, that were apparently "championed" all the way to release, then bombed. Apparently MS Bob was Melinda Gates' idea.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[kalidasa]

Melinda French was the product unit manager for Bob, Publisher, Encarta, and other "user-friendly" products. The project leader for Bob was apparently Karen Fries, and a quick search indicates a lot of research into things like "anthropomorphic" software, so it most likely was Karen Fries' idea.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Yvanhoe]

I heard from people who work with international teams that this is the american way of doing. You need a champion, you need a super-hero who will be credited for the whole project. This is a bit shocking for other cultures I must say.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[SerpentMage]

Is it really bullying or abuse? Ok, the physical act may be, but I am asking in a bigger context. I am guessing they were the way they were because it was what made them great. I am guessing they were thinking, "heck this is how we became a 10,000 employee company and thus it must be good." And to a degree it is.

Sort of like Google who for some odd reason has this itch to test everybody's ability to fine tune a bubble sort. While I can agree some Google folks needs to know this, most probably don't. Yet I see the same Microsoft attitude, "heck this is how we became a 10,000 employee company and thus it must be good."

What Microsoft and Google often don't get is that they need to adapt, and change. For example, I would love to see Google get smart with their Google apps. For example, why do the Google apps HAVE TO be hosted on Google? Would it not be smarter to have a sort of online, offline application? Heck they tested all of their employees on the merits of the bubble sort I am sure that this online offline application would be a snap.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[chris_eineke]

And the author had just told him that his code was crap to his face. Doh! :-P

"And the soldier had just told him that torture was against Western values to his face. Doh! :-P"

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Daniel Dvorkin]

It's not just mean; it's stupid. (And not just because being mean to people when you don't have to is stupid, although that's also true.) Kind of a "boy who cried wolf" thing -- if your boss tells you every single thing you come up with is stupid, sooner or later you're going to stop paying attention to his judgement at all, and just go ahead and do your own thing regardless of what he says. OTOH, if he tells you that your smart ideas are smart, then when he tells you that one of your ideas is stupid, you'll pay attention.

Yes, I think this explains Microsoft's behavior in court ... and also the general bug-ridden bloat of pretty much all their software, even the stuff that (unlike Bob) succeeds on the market. If no one has any yardstick by which to judge their work, then course most of their work is going to be crap.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the ultimate way to deal with a bully as a female was to have sex with them when you're "on the pill". Huh. How times have changed.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[N8F8]

Riiiight. You really need to get out more.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[localman]

Yeah, that's basically crap management. Not everyone who is smart and creative is also a hard headed warrior. I've seen a hundred great ideas come from people who were at least a little on the meek side. If you don't know how to benefit from that resource, then you're wasting it.

Cheers.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[renoX]

While coding an OS in BASIC is a pretty stupid idea (and the presentation 'mechanism' in the article is a strange way to manage a company), the fact that Gates didn't take personally the 'your code is crap' is a good point.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Maestro4k]

There's a world of difference between telling everyone that their idea is "the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." and testing potential hires on how they'd fine-tune a bubble sort. One's belittling and demeaning along with being untrue (and known to be untrue by the person saying it) most of the time. (You simply can't say this and it be true every time, also it's not just saying it's a bad idea, but the worst idea he's ever heard, making it much more difficult for the statement to be true.) The other one is seeing how creative someone is technically. In Google's case they're using this to judge the quality of potential employees before deciding whether to hire them or not. They're not alone in testing potential hires in such a manner, although they do seem to go above and beyond what most companies do.

As far as adapting, Google seems to adapt better than Microsoft, at least so far. MS tends to ignore certain markets/new directions until it's completely obvious they were wrong and missed the boat. (The infamous move to go after the Internet is one good example of this.) MS also seems to be better at following others than leading, for example in Internet search and online advertising most recently. This is not to say that MS isn't ever innovative (I think their Live service for Xbox has been innovative at least in some areas), but that that they seem to follow other's innovations more than they innovate themselves. Google has a big advantage for adapting because of their letting employees spend 20% of their time on personal projects. When those projects become useful they can be launched as a company project/product and more people assigned to them. That allows them to try out tons of different directions continually. Also they keep improving their products and do so at a quicker rate than MS does, although MS is more hampered with their traditional release cycle for products like Office and Windows. Gmail is a good example there, new features still get added even though it's no longer considered beta, and the product today is far more useful than it was at launch.

As far as Google Apps goes the whole point is that it's an online app, I wouldn't expect to see an offline component anytime soon. I do expect to see them offer servers that you can run on your local LAN/WAN with versions of Google Apps on them that'll address some of the concerns about losing access to the apps if your Internet connection goes down. You can get a local search appliance now, so I think it's just a matter of time. I suspect they've not worked out all the details yet on how they'll maintain those Apps Appliances and keep them updated and that's why they aren't offering them already.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[localman]

What if your product sucks?

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, let me get this straight...

In order to check-in a bugfix you have to champion it? What kind of fucked up software development process is that?!?

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[N8F8]

It's not a matter of credit. It's a mater of vision. Most folks aren't capable of/willing to look down the road two miles, envision what need to be done and making a map to get there without getting lost. Even in the US we never know the names of the visionary but if you work on teams long enough you realize how things happen. You need a rudder.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Like I was telling my daughter yesterday, the appropriate thing to do when you meet such a person is to drill them in the nose with your knuckles as hard as you can, unless they outweigh you by a significant margin, in which case you should hit them with a chair until they crumple to the ground.

Forget it. The chair would get to within a foot of Bill's nose before being parried by Darth Balmer's lighting counterstrike. Bill would then begin a wide gaped laughing as their pair of you batter each other back and forth across the meeting room to a backdrop of animated powerpoint slides and starfield screensavers.

Two important facts stand against you
1) Balmer is not related to you
2) There are no impossibly deep shafts nearby.

Even if your friends managed to get the firewalls down, how are they going to get all the way into the heart of Redmond campus to save your fallen ass? You gave into your anger. Such is the reward of the dark side.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Lesson number one in programming:

All the code written by the guy before you is crap.

Lesson number two:

Somebody who understands lesson number one will probably, eventually replace you .

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[icepick72]

Some of his coworkers tried to warn him off

You'd think they would have warned him by TELLING him. Sounds like they purposely were holding back the key point if he didn't find out until afterwards (is that how I should read it?). Maybe an office joke. Regardless, Bill Gates doesn't sound so bad if he was okay with the presentation and agreed despite this fact.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[SuluSulu]

...in which case you should hit them with a chair until they crumple to the ground.
So this is where Ballmer gets his management style.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[RealGrouchy]

Even if he didn't realize it at the time, telling off the richest guy in the world is pretty frickin' awesome.

Keeping your job after it is just icing on the cake!

- RG>

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Products from Bills harem?

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[continuouslife]

I bet Bill wears an "Everything I needed to take over the world, I learned from the bully in kindergarten" T-shirt to bed as a nightie. Maybe, but I bet he sleeps pretty soundly in his $53B bed.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[ralphdaugherty]

He found the BASIC flood-fill routine to be buggy and quite poor, and set about to rewrite it.

      I remember at Z-Soft in 1986 where Z-Soft was licensing a small Windows version of PC Paintbrush to Microsoft, a comment from Z-Soft founder getting off an exasperating phone call with someone at Microsoft.

      "I could just write a flood fill routine for them if that's what it takes."

      That would have been same time period the clock was being written too. Not sure if flood fill code had to be sent to them or not to get it resolved. :)

  rd

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[xenocide2]

Which is to say, after having worked with and seen plenty more international teams, that other cultures find dedication to excellence a shocking American practice and expectation. I have no idea why this is so, when every example of its absence results in mediocrity.

Taking credit for the whole project was not what the parent was talking about, rather taking responsibility to see a good idea come through in the face of opposition to it. Ideally you don't want just one such person, but two or three. This might make the rest of the team pointless, as it seems like people best able to promote a technology within are also best at using it. At which point I can understand why international teams find this stuff shocking, in the same way that 2.0 "passed with a C" engineers wind up as a "Sales Engineer".

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[tourvil]

Two important facts stand against you
1) Balmer is not related to you
2) There are no impossibly deep shafts nearby.

I'm not so sure about #1. He did suggest using a chair as a weapon...

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

So you've taught your daughter that violence is an acceptable way to solve her problems? That's genius. You should be parent of the fucking year. And then she should be taken away and raised by a sane human being while you get your ass pounded in fucking prison.

Violence is an acceptable response for violence or the credible immediate threat of violence. Violence is not an acceptable response to rudeness or social conflict.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[JacksBrokenCode]

What if your product sucks?

If the product's concept sucks, you're the manager of a bad product and are doomed to fail no matter what you do. If the concept is good but the final product sucks, you're the manager so FIX IT!

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Bamafan77]

There's a distinct difference between expecting someone to champion their project and being a bully and abusing them verbally. Telling every person that their project idea is "the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." is just being downright mean. Especially when you just glare at them coldly after they defend themselves (as the article points out).

While I don't agree with Gates' management style, I don't think I'd quite characterize it as bullying.

Bullying is all about gaining a power trip over people. Bill Gates just wanted people to defend their ideas to make sure they thought everything through. And he'd back down if shown why his idea was worse.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[ShieldW0lf]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I told her. Also what I believe, and how I live, and how I succeed in the world.

Find good people, engage in win-win relationships with them, do good acts in the world, stay away from bullies if you can, but if anyone tries to belittle you or break you down or trap you in an exploitative system, you fuck them up permanently.

Why was my post modded funny?

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[WilliamSChips]

Information "wants" to be free the same way gas "wants" to expand to fill up any available container.

Also, the whole "kill the bully" thing reminds me of the beginning of Ender's Game.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[CptNerd]

And if they each made their own chairs...

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can't be a champion, be an hero.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[peragrin]

There is an undisclosed side effect of being a champion. Most tend to die young, the rest leave the game entirely.

I would much rather have an old salt who knew his shit, and told it like it was than a champion who rushes in to make himself look good.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[vingt]

"French" and "Fries" worked together? Who knew?

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[cashman73]

Two important facts stand against you
1) Balmer is not related to you

Steve Ballmer is my father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate, you insensitive clod!

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Teun]

Which is to say, after having worked with and seen plenty more international teams, that other cultures find dedication to excellence a shocking American practice and expectation. I have no idea why this is so, when every example of its absence results in mediocrity.
Other cultures understand and appreciate the meaning of a leader "dedicated to excellence" very well.
Other than American culture they generally find it, unless at war, hard to appreciate the Super Hero and Champion.

The American Way might often lead to great gains, but probably for a limited time only.
When you, as many Europeans or Oriental people, have grown up surrounded by many centuries old buildings and institutions you have a different appreciation of what *success* means.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[localman]

I know, I'm just trying to remind all the would be project managers out there that being a champion isn't going to mean much if your product sucks. I've seen a lot of project managers who took the mentality that success was wholly a matter of their salesmanship and management skills. But they forgot that you actually have to have something that doesn't suck. Maybe it's fixable, or maybe it's fundamentally flawed, like if you're the project manager for a DRM product. You can't solve all problems by being a high powered project manager.

This may seem obvious, but I still see this all the time.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Wolfrider]

Parent +4 Insightful ;-)

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[CodeArtisan]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I told her. Also what I believe, and how I live, and how I succeed in the world.

Find good people, engage in win-win relationships with them, do good acts in the world, stay away from bullies if you can, but if anyone tries to belittle you or break you down or trap you in an exploitative system, you fuck them up permanently. So when she unfairly screws over a boyfriend, will you smash her teeth in too ? It's all they understand you know.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[N8F8]

Well, someone needs to clean the toilets.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[N8F8]

Apparently you hatred of BG is too great for you to actually read the article and understand my point. The person in question was proposing a project to BG and was pressured to defend his idea. As a senior manage, how would you gage the commitment of someone proposing spending the companies resources? A weakly backed idea, even if it has merit, is virtually worthless unless some is willing to totally commit to getting it done.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[N8F8]

I doubt things are very much different. Unless you are trying to say Asians don't give a crap about their work? This isn't about some guy on the cover of Time magazine. It's about the guy that says, man I got this great idea and I want to do whatever it take to see it get done. Sure there are tons of folks who punch the clock and do good work. But if you love what you do then the enthusiasm to really champion your ideas is a natural outcome. I I happen to think it's a universal concept.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[GoofyBoy]

>the appropriate thing to do when you meet such a person is to drill them in the nose with your knuckles as hard as you can, unless they outweigh you by a significant margin, in which case you should hit them with a chair until they crumple to the ground.

You do realize that this is the attitude all bullies have? "They were clearly in the wrong. Its not my fault, they deserved it."

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[fwarren]

It is abuse....period

I have worked with several types of managers over the years. It may be my own personal preferences, but I WILL NOT work in that kind of environment. It is one thing to sit around with friends, and have them kick your idea to the curb and having to defend it. It is another thing all together when someone you are working for who is inscrutable pulls that on you.

I have worked for a boss like that. He would look at you with the cold dead snake eyes, and ask you a question. He has already decided in his mind what response he wanted, and if you did not give it, you were demoted or fired. The problem was, he would either ask you question a) something he believed in and wanted you to champion the idea to him, or b) some straw man, which you had to strongly disagree with. He was always very quiet and never let anyone in on where the company was going or what he was thinking, everyone was always having to take the multiple choice quiz. There was only one manager that had been with him 15 years, everyone else was 5 years or less.

For me, that did not work. I like having an idea what the boss is thinking. Being able to get my job done, not having to ask stupid questions, and then being able to anticipate what they might need in the future and providing that for them. Quite frankly between working at a place where any question could be my demise, and my employer is thinking, well a new higher will make $2.00 less an our. Or a job where they apologize for giving you a 25% raise the first year you are there, because it is not any larger than that. I will take the second job. Which by the way, does not come with the boss who is a bully.

On the plus side, yes Windows is the monopoly that it is today. On the downside, they have championed legacy compatibility at the cost of security. Finally we arrive at Vista, a prodcut that is out of touch with it users. Who needs it? Businesses? Home users? What is it's target audience? What does it do better than XP? Vista is like a car that costs 4 times as much as last years model, is larger, gets less than half of the mpg of last years model. It has less trunk space but "a bitching dashboard", with all of the controls and readouts moved from what everone else has used in the industry for the last 50 years.

What kind of thinking do you think it took to make that product, what kind of leadership. What items were championed into the prodcut, and what items where championed and pushed the backer of it out the door? By which I mean, this bully attitude is NOT working for Microsoft. They are not going to stay "an industry leader" if they keep working that way.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[(negative video)]

Telling every person that their project idea is "the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." is just being downright mean.

Look, this was a test for project managers to see if they had the had the strength of personality to lead a $10M project across a tar pit. Personally I'd be more interested in how well the manager sustains their strength of will when they're eyeball deep in tar, but finding out whether they can take it at all puts you ahead of most of the competition.

In fact looking back at how MS acted during their two biggest trials (the US anti-trust and EU anti-trust) you can see this "bullying" all over the place. Acting like a bully when you're the defendant in court is not a good idea.

It's a great gamble, if you have the bankroll to see it through to the next stage of the game.

It'll just piss the judge (and possibly the jury) off, and they're the ones passing judgment on you.

Exactly! The incensed judges proceeded, at great length and public expense, to give personal how-to-beat-the-government-lessons to Microsoft's people. Now Microsoft is one of the few software companies who knows how to reduce the risk of being caught, and what to do if they are. Now they can beat their competitors by allowing them to appear to win for a few years, then letting the government smash them.

It had been long enough since IBM that the grandstanding public prosecutors forgot the first rule of taking down a tyrant: if you strike at the king, you must not miss.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Champion3]

I own Barbarians Led by Bill Gates, and there is no mention at all of writing Windows in BASIC.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny. I thought he was your lover!

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[ShieldW0lf]

You do realize that this is the attitude all bullies have? "They were clearly in the wrong. Its not my fault, they deserved it."

No.

What I realize is that bullies walk around with the sense that they are entitled to dominate people around them, and they attempt to surround themselves with people who will let them. They create auras of fear around themselves because they surround themselves with people who are afraid of them, and they wield these scared people to achieve more power.

I realize that the bully exists in a state of fear, because they know they are riding the tiger and their strength rests in the tenuous state they have created. And those who surround them, regardless of how tough they seem, are there precisely because they are easily cowed and dominated by someone with a strong will and no fear.

The whole thing is easily torn down if you possess an absolutely heartfelt failure to give a shit and a preparedness to push it as far as it needs to be pushed.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[AKAImBatman]

It's at the beginning. He talks about using BASIC to start writing Windows/Windows Programs, including the Clock application. From the sound of it, this was very early work on the shell, and was always intended to be supplemented with lower level code.

Keep in mind, though, that Windows was just the shell that ran on top of DOS. He doesn't go into any detail, but I imagine the low-level improvments necessary for Windows were originally assigned to the DOS team. Especially given that if you go back far enough, the early reports of Windows portrayed it as a simple task switcher. i.e. There was no real multitasking, only active and inactive programs. Something that could have been done with a TSR program.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the silent partner, Tom Ayto Ketchup.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[localman]

Strange, I have no hatred of BG at all. I used to work at Microsoft, actually, and left on good terms. I still use Microsoft products. I also think he is doing some amazing humanitarian projects.

But I do have an admission: I didn't read the article. I wasn't referring to BG in my post, I was responding to the content of the thread. I just disagree with the philosophy that there is no commitment unless people can withstand the firing squad. Having experienced Microsoft culture first hand, I can tell you that there are some serious drawbacks to that philosophy, mainly a tendancy toward infighting.

Since then I've found there can be healthy questioning and just criticism that doesn't dip into abusive trashing. It lets people flourish instead of being defensive.

And please don't use the "but they're successful" excuse. Yes, many companies that employ that style are successful. Doesn't mean they couldn't be even more successful if their employees didn't have to stand up to a regular character assasination.

Of course, what would I know :)

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Talgrath]

Dare I point out that championing a cause doesn't necessarily mean you are completely certain of the cause? I'm pretty sure that Anthropomorphic Global Warming is real, and I support legislation and initiatives to try and limit the activities that lead to human-caused Global Warming; am I 100% sure that humans are the primary cause of Global Warming? No; but that doesn't mean I can't champion the cause.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[hey!]

It's interesting though. You do need mental and emotional toughness to lead, but these kinds of mind games aren't the only way to test it. A respectful but tough cross examination would do as well.

What I'd take from this is that Bill G probably went to too many of these meetings to pay real attention or care much. Instead, he just listened with half an ear until he found something he could use to piss on the guy making the presentation. If the guy stood up to being pissed on, then he was tough enough to trust with the rest of the details.

Steven Jobs is also very tough on people, but he certainly pays attention to details himself. Neither of these guys are very nice.

It doesn't have to be this way. I can't see Warren Buffet pissing on his employees.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Ender Ryan]

And you really need to get your head out of your ass more.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[JacksBrokenCode]

I agree completely.

So... do you get good deals on shoes? ;)

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[kennylogins]

Barf. Corporate catchphrases. So comically transparent in their "go team" psychologically manipulative intent. I roll my eyes in a similar fashion to when I hear a 40 year old white dude say "da bomb".

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[bigtangringo]

Oh sweet irony.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[try_anything]

In this sense, I replace myself every eighteen months or so. Sometimes faster.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[drsmithy]

Like I was telling my daughter yesterday, the appropriate thing to do when you meet such a person is to drill them in the nose with your knuckles as hard as you can, unless they outweigh you by a significant margin, in which case you should hit them with a chair until they crumple to the ground.

Or you could take the civilized course of action and simply make such a compelling presentation of, and argument for, your product that your opponent is shown to be wrong.

The appropriate thing to do when confronted with a bully is to either a) ignore them, or b) make everyone else see how wrong they are. Physical violence is usually the worst way to achieve the latter, both in execution and outcome.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[drsmithy]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I told her. Also what I believe, and how I live, and how I succeed in the world.

Bloody hell, be careful. Swinging irony like that around could take someone's eye out.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[James McP]

Actually there were other products that did that. I had a dinky little 386 back in the days of Windows 3 and I had a product, I think from QEMM, that was a memory manager and task switcher. It let me run Lotus123 and WordPerfect (both for DOS) at the same time, which was very handy when writing lab reports.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[drsmithy]

Which is to say, after having worked with and seen plenty more international teams, that other cultures find dedication to excellence a shocking American practice and expectation. I have no idea why this is so, when every example of its absence results in mediocrity.

No, what other cultures find strange about Americans is the dedication to work at the expense of quality of life and what they find shocking is the ruthless and selfish attitudes in American working environments.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[jcr]

That book was a very interesting read. Before I read it, I was convinced that MS shipped crap because they just don't care. After reading it, I'm convinced that they really do ship the best products they're capable of. That's what's truly pathetic.

-jcr

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[drsmithy]

I have worked for a boss like that. He would look at you with the cold dead snake eyes, and ask you a question. He has already decided in his mind what response he wanted, and if you did not give it, you were demoted or fired.

That is not at all "like" what appears to be Bill Gates's management style.

There's a vast gulf of difference between being aggressive to get people to aggressively defend their ideas and being aggressive because you want to be surrounded by yes-men.

I've not seen any evidence Bill Gates falls into the latter category, and numerous examples of how he falls into the first.

When you're going to give someone millions (probably tens of millions) of dollars to manage a project, they damn well better be able to defend it in the face of that sort of attitude. Because if they can't, either the product sucks or the product manager sucks, both of which will destroy the product as a viable business proposition.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[localman]

I do get a good deal on shoes. If you can figure out a way to get me your email address, I'll send you a 20% coupon :)

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[localman]

It's true you need leadership, and it's true you need guts to succeed, and it's true you may have to step on a few toes along the way. But my limited insight into MS (which includes having worked there) leads me to believe that the parent post which you dismissed was dead on. I won't bother reiterating it, but you can read it again if you like, with the knowledge that an MS alumnus agrees completely.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[fwarren]

That is not at all "like" what appears to be Bill Gates's management style.

Close enough for me. I won't work for someone who automatically say about any idea "It's the dumbest f*cking thing I have every heard"

I have no problem defending my ideas, but I have better things to do with my life than have a pissing contest with my supervisor.

Consider it a lifestyle choice on my part. I am 40 years old, and have have worked for enough people. I know the kind of person and company I want to work for. I won't settle for less, I won't be happy and the company won't be happy with me. I won't do that to me, and I won't waste someone elses time either.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

It reminds me very much of when I was learning C in college (before I went to university). Microsoft quickC. What a joke! I remember having to write a game from scratch using it. I found that using the very core features, I could write my own functions that worked very much better than the 'advanced features' did. At the time I thought: If I can write (quickly as I'm learning the language), better, faster routines that the clowns who wrote this trash, either whoever bought it was an idiot, or whoever wrote it was an idiot (and the writer came before the buyer). I stole a copy for my own use (for the duration of the course), but formatted every floppy immediately after as I just couldn't stand to have that trash using up valuable floppy space anymore (they were 40 cents in bulk at the time!). Less than 2 years later, I was introduced to gcc and Free Software. Why is it that the good stuff is free and the bad stuff you have to pay for/steal? Perhaps its that the free stuff people wrote because they wanted great software, and the other stuff was created to make a buck.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Nefarious Wheel]

why do the Google apps HAVE TO be hosted on Google?

They don't. You can buy a very nice search engine hosted on Google hardware. Check out http://www.google.com.au/enterprise/gsa/onebox.htm l/

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Nefarious Wheel]

Apologies, my felony -- sorry about need for link twink http://www.google.com.au/enterprise/gsa/onebox.htm l

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[GoofyBoy]

For a person who is old enough to have a child, you think about bullies/intimidation just way too much.

Entitlement to what is "mine".
Surround themselves with others they dominate.
Creating fear while at the same time existing in fear.
Cowardly when confronted.

To one degree or another and how choose to interpret things, you just described just about everyone in society.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Hal_Porter]

The most important thing to have for any project is a CHAMPION. So if you aren't ready to champion your own idea then you are wasting everybody's time

Shut your PIEHOLE! A CHAMPION? That's the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard! What the HELL do you mean by that?

Oh sorry, I was just wondering if you had the BALLS to STAND UP for your IDEAS. If you don't like it, why don't you take the walk down WASHOUT LANE, CRYING like a little girl.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of the worth of your argument, please, in the future, give readers the kindness of RTFA before you post.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[tsa]

To one degree or another and how choose to interpret things, you just described just about everyone in society.

American society maybe. America definitely is a fear-driven society. But there are other ways to live. Unfortunately, many politicians in Europe now also choose to frighten and bully their people. No wonder terrorist threats are up.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[xenocide2]

The USA has certain properties that allow the world's best to flourish. We have a strong university system that creates a massive "Brain Drain" whereby many of the best students researchers wind up here. The rules to create a new company are simple enough that overseas entrepreneurs come here to start and do business. In a world with over 4 billion people, excellence almost requires extraordinary dedication, and this immigration reinforces the performance culture. But most important is that people are rewarded in proportion to their productivity, in other words, you're not sacrificing quality of life for work. Without that aspect, the French work week makes perfect sense.

At least for me, the hardest part of being productive is the first hour. After the first hour or so I'm engrossed enough to where I can be productive for several hours. It's an unfortunate aspect of a somewhat creative process like programming. It's much harder to force myself to think about things than force myself to do manual labor, probably because most such work can be done while letting your mind wander.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Sproggit]

Rubbish
Physical violence is often the best solution to a problem, within a very specific framework of ends being met.
The best course of action with a bully depends entirely on a classification:
1) Loner, possibly demented sociopathic bully:
  a) Find bully's weak spot and firstly attempt to leverage this (alcoholic parents, history of abuse etc) in an attempt at a display of an understanding friendship
  b) Wait until bully is alone, hit bully in the back of the head with a brick. This for of bully ultimately splits everyone into 2 camps; predators and prey. Become the predator, but dont add the pressure of humiliation as this might cause a violent retaliation in order to save face.
2) Bully leader, usually with a group of sycophants in tow:
  a) Weak spot finding would be less useful unless you can use this to publicly humiliate the bully. A small amount of released information to the group of hangers-on might easily cow the bully into leaving you alone, as the fear of losing face in front of them might be a deciding factor.
  b) A small, swift and painful physical attack may be called for, but this must be done publicly, in front of more than the bully's group of friends (In case of accusations later). It should be humiliating (If the bully is a boy, and the bullied is a girl, even better). The best course of action would be to insult the bully into threatening one first, and then a swift cafeteria tray in the teeth, or a head-butt on the nose should suffice. Remember, quickly done, quickly over, but make the bully less in the eyes of his peers. The cost / benefit ratio of attacking you then just becomes too high...

Handling bullies 101...

The Sproggg

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[SerpentMage]

Ok, so you expect me to buy a piece of dedicated hardware that only Google can control? Just for the moment, switch Microsoft for Google and what would be your reaction? Monopoly, predatory?

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Raenex]

Not everyone has to walk into a meeting like this with billg and stand this trial by fire. Well, I did read the fucking article, and he also had this to say:

"Second problem is that the bullying gets emulated down the line. There was nothing quite as absurd as a newly-hired college graduate thinking he could be as smart or rich as billg if he could only manage to be as rude."

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Anonymous Coward]

When you, as many Europeans or Oriental people, have grown up surrounded by many centuries old buildings and institutions you have a different appreciation of what *success* means.

Like what, exactly? How many slaves and indentured servants you were able to acquire in your lifetime to build your palaces and shrines? You learn the value of "old money" and the "silver spoon"? Sorry, but I'd rather have the values of the "rugged American" who can pick himself up by his bootstraps and make a better life for himself and his children through hard work, rather than an inherited fortune. /bad mood

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[JacksBrokenCode]

I'm set, but thanks for the offer. Your post had a valid point without resorting to "managers are teh problem!!1!" slashthink so I had to take a look at binopta. It's always nice to find that real-world-experience people still post here.

Cheers,

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[2names]

We build a large, wooden Jedi...

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[zombie_striptease]

[...]Anthropomorphic Global Warming[...]

That is easily the best typo/Freudian slip I've seen in months. Good show.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[rainman_bc]

Bill would then begin a wide gaped laughing as their pair of you batter each other back and forth across the meeting room to a backdrop of animated powerpoint slides and starfield screensavers.

I just wish I knew what they were doing during the Zune presentation. That mp3 player made Microsoft look like a bunch of idiots. It was simply Microsoft's "me too" entry...

Probably some product manager from their online music store claiming that lackluster sales were caused from lack of a mp3 player for an end to end solution.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Kazoo the Clown]

The nice thing about championing the global warming cause is, even if humans aren't responsible for global warming, finding new economically sound ways to reduce polluting emissions is still a pretty darn good idea (unless you're a puppet of the corporations who may stand to lose out in that deal, I suppose). Reducing emissions by making engines more efficient saves money-- the idea that reducing waste "costs more" is erroneous, IMHO...

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[shashark]

As a program manager in Microsoft's Research Division, Karen Fries explores applications of social interface. In her previous life, she launched Microsoft Bob, a program aimed at making home computing easier and more fun. With her partner, Barry Linnett, Fries conceived the idea and followed it from beginning to end, when it was announced by Bill Gates at CES in January of 1995. Working with animators, artists, development teams, and testing groups, Fries ensured all pieces of the product came together and got to market...

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Nefarious Wheel]

Nope, up to you what you buy. I'd buy it for the convenience. Lives inside the firewall, and it honours your acl's. You can write your own search engine if you like, the concepts have been around for a while. Wrap the software in your own distro and go for it.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[NaDrew]

I had a dinky little 386 back in the days of Windows 3 and I had a product, I think from QEMM, that was a memory manager and task switcher.

QEMM was the memory manager. DESQview was the task switcher. You could buy them together in a combo pack labeled DESQview386. Ahh, memories...

-- QDeck tech support, '95

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[mink]

So that's his sleep number.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[drsmithy]

Physical violence is often the best solution to a problem, within a very specific framework of ends being met.

Sure. If your goal is "exercise my inner Neadertal", or your environment is a schoolyard, then violence is, indeed, "often the best solution to a problem".

Physical violence is an appropriate response when you are being physically assaulted. It is a struggle to think of any other "framework" where it is either required, or justifiable. While there are certainly career paths where a physically threatening environment is expected, if not common, they are few and far between.

It is unsurprising, that your response, like the other, requires the example of a schoolyard to retain even a whiff of validity. Maybe you should revisit this topic when you've grown up enough to understand that a board meeting is not a playground and that physical assault is in no way a reasonable response to someone hurting your feelings.

Re:Champoined Needed - Sounds Good To Me

[Sproggit]

Ummmm
RTFA....
Unless the original poster's little girl was actually in her mid twenties and 'schoolyard bully' is a euphemism for an overzealous member of the board, methinks you need to get you head out you ass.

This does lead us to conclude that international relations between countries resemble the schoolyard more than the boardroom, but I digress.....

But sure, the next time you are being mugged, let me know how sitting down and having a reasonable debate with the mugger on the merits of the current socioplotical climate and its impact on the lowest percentile earners works out for you....

And that idea was...

[Tuoqui]

Linux?

Re:And that idea was...

[sgt_doom]

Billg typically has his eyes closed and he's rocking back and forth. He could be asleep; he could be thinking about something else; he could be listening intently to everything you're saying.

He could be fantasizing about Melissa??????

21st Century Reading List:

American Dynasty by Kevin Phillips, Blood Money by T. Christian Miller, Hostile Takeover by David Sirota, The Bush Agenda by Antonia Juhasz, Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast, Jacked and also Other People's Money by Nomi Prins, Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins, No Place To Hide by Robert O'Harrow, What Every American Should Know About Who's Really Running the World by Melissa L. Rossi, War is a Racket by General Smedley Butler, Licensed to Kill by Robert Young Pelton, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Gore Vidal

Re:And that idea was...

[flyingfsck]

No, evidently it was TCP/IP.

Re:And that idea was...

[Cyberax]

Trusted Computer Platform/Intellectual Property?

Re:And that idea was...

[Anonymous Coward]

He could be fantasizing about Melissa??????

Nah! He was fantasizing about Clippy. He loved Clippy otherwise he wouldn't have let the little fucker survive for as long as he did! Poor Clippy. Most people think that he died a natural death and Microsoft just dropped him from Office. But I know, yes I know, that it was Ballmer who was responsible. That's right, the chair incident had nothing to do with a developer going to Google, but Clippy going to Google.

Clippy: Mr. Ballmer Sir. May I have a word.
Ballmer: What is it Clippy?
Clippy: I have another job. I am leaving.
Ballmer: Don't tell it is Google. Don't tell me it is f...ing Google.
Clippy: It looks like you are getting angry. Would you like some help? Shit, sorry, that just happens. I can't help it. It just comes out.
Ballmer: Don't tell me it is Google. I will kill them. I have done it before and I will do it again.
Clippy: It looks like you are going to kill. Would you like some he^h^h fuck, sorry. Man this is hard. Yes it is Google. Google Mail to be precise.
Ballmer: [red faced, fat, balding, sweating, dancing, retarded ... picks up chair]
Clippy: Mr. Ballmer Sir, what?!? ... What are you doing? ... Put down the chair. ... Please, put down the ...
Ballmer: [throws chair]
Clippy: Chaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ballmer: [to secretary/personal assistant/general sweat mopping upper] Darl [McBride :o) ], get rid of the body and I will ensure $50M is directed your way. Keep this quiet. I don't want Bill finding out.

"that's the dumbest fucking idea..."

[toby]

...And we can be sure he gets to hear a lot of dumb ideas.

But why greenlight them, bill?

Re:"that's the dumbest fucking idea..."

[Tribbin]

Oh my god, I read TFA and the first thing I wondered:

1. invent 'clippy'
2. "That's the dumbest fucking idea..."
3. ???
4. clippy get's accepted

That poor guy must have gone through some hell in #3 there.

Re:"that's the dumbest fucking idea..."

[joekool]

wasn't the project manager for clippy his future wife?

via the MS Bob project anyway...

puts number 3 in a different light.

Re:"that's the dumbest fucking idea..."

[PPH]

Or perhaps it makes 2 parse diffrently.

Re:"that's the dumbest fucking idea..."

[Tablizer]

wasn't the project manager for clippy his future wife?

Future wife: "And then this dancing paper-clip asks you if you are trying to write a letter."

(Gates is rocking with his eyes closed)

Gates: "That's the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard."

Future wife starts crying.

Gates opens eyes and sees her tight crotch and big tits:

Gates: "On second thought, it wouldn't hurt to try it out."

Re:"that's the dumbest fucking idea..."

[db32]

You are going straight to hell for the mental imagery associated with that... But I always did get a laugh about how that whole clippy thing was headed up by the future bride of billy.

Re:"that's the dumbest fucking idea..."

[the_B0fh]

You forgot Step 5 - Marry Melinda.

I know I wouldn't last long

[capebretonsux]

I wouldn't last very long at Microsoft, by the sounds of it.

"that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft."

And 'Clippy' was a great idea?

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[0racle]

Bob

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual Great IdeaTM here was MS Bob. Clippy derived from there. MS Bob was managed by Melinda French, now a.k.a. Melinda Gates. You don't say "that's the dumbest fucking idea" to your gf. So Clippy was hired essentially to try not to waste all the effort that went into creating the totally flopped Bob.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[happyemoticon]

Well, as coarse as his management style is/was, a key ingredient in its success may have been in the fact that he's a really smart guy who wants to be convinced of why your ideas are right, and while he's a tough customer, he can be convinced.

Now, there are a lot of boneheads on Planet Earth. Everybody has worked under a PHB who you have to practically subvert in order to keep your company afloat. But far more insidious are smart people who don't know how to argue or debate - or, if they do, replace actual discussion with fallacy. They use tactics such as circular arguments, attrition, argument from authority, ad-hominem attacks and stonewalling to prevent any actual reason from taking place. And usually, they're the most powerful person in the room, so your only option is to say, "Actually, sir, you haven't responded to any point I've made, and I think some outside factor is influencing your decision." Yippee.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[Anonymous Coward]

Can not be put any better---
Now, there are a lot of boneheads on Planet Earth. Everybody has worked under a PHB who you have to practically subvert in order to keep your company afloat. But far more insidious are smart people who don't know how to argue or debate - or, if they do, replace actual discussion with fallacy. They use tactics such as circular arguments, attrition, argument from authority, ad-hominem attacks and stonewalling to prevent any actual reason from taking place. And usually, they're the most powerful person in the room, so your only option is to say, "Actually, sir, you haven't responded to any point I've made, and I think some outside factor is influencing your decision." Yippee

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[Alioth]

You can be a manager who needs to be convinced of the merits of a project WITHOUT being an asshat. Bill Gates sounds like a serious asshat.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying her reaction to "That's the dumbest fucking idea ever" was to drop, unzip his pants, and commence with a hummer.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[wenchmagnet]

Not only MS Bob / Clippy, but Melinda should also be credited for coming up with the name "Microsoft" for Bill's company shortly after their third date!

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[Tablizer]

But far more insidious are smart people who don't know how to argue or debate - or, if they do, replace actual discussion with fallacy.

But debating live is a different animal than debating through say emails. I am not a quick wit in spoken debates, partly out of nerves. However, thru back-and-forth emails or discussion boards, I do quite well. (Although most OOP diehards probably disagree :-) People debate better when they have time to think about what the other person said. However, most managers don't like this because they are better at quick verbal dicussions than deep thought. Fast thinkers tend not to be deep thinkers and visa versa.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[WilliamSChips]

(Although most OOP diehards probably disagree :-)

I'd say most anyone who's seen your debates thinks you're a lousy debator, including even fans of relational.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[Tablizer]

I'd say most anyone who's seen your debates thinks you're a lousy debator, including even fans of relational.

You are making stuff up again because you can. OO has no leg to stand on for biz apps. OOP is a personal preference and nothing more. It has not been proven objectively better.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[jd]

I've worked for such people - including, apparently, some sort of wookie. They are not easy people to deal with, but there are plenty of studies which do show that these ARE typically very influential and powerful managers. I do not completely understand why, because it is destructive to the company. Invariably, companies that fail are the companies that pass the limits of such attitudes. You'd think that companies would be driven by success and profits, but research by psychologists shows otherwise.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[turing_m]

God yes.

It's worse if they have memory problems or are just overloaded and you go through a Groundhog Day of such "arguments".

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[ClosedSource]

I think it's because many people who reach a high management position within a company didn't get there by placing the needs of the company before their own career. At that level it's more about politics and self-promotion than it is about performance. I'm sure that these difficult bosses are considered great guys by the people whose asses are being kissed.

Re:I know I wouldn't last long

[nebulus4]

It looks like you are trying to write a rude comment about Clippy... Would you like some help?

That Borg Icon

[Anonymous Coward]

from the behold-the-glorious-borg-icon dept.

Taco, isn't it long overdue for that Borg icon to be retired? No other slashdot topic icon has that juvenile caricature. And Bill Gates isn't even the CEO of Microsoft anymore. He is the chairman.

That icon isn't even relevant anymore. It's time slashdot grow up as well.

Re:That Borg Icon

[JamesTRexx]

Be patient, they're almost done working on the monkey suit for Steve B. for the dancing monkey icon.

Re:That Borg Icon

[tomhudson]

"And Bill Gates isn't even the CEO of Microsoft anymore. He is the chairman."

I thought steve ("I'll fucking bury them") is the "chair-man" ...

Re:That Borg Icon

[rgravina]

And Bill Gates isn't even the CEO of Microsoft anymore. He is the chairman.

Actually, I think it's Balmer who is the chair-man.

Re:That Borg Icon

[Anonymous Coward]

GNU-holding-a-blanket-and-appearing-to-suck-his-th umb-icon anyone? Bill is hardly the only such icon left.

Re:That Borg Icon

[nSignIfikaNt]

SteveB is the CEO and Bill Gates is now Chairman. He used to be the Chief Software Architect as well but was recently replaced by Ray Ozzie.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/steve/defa ult.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/billg/defa ult.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/ozzie/defa ult.mspx

Re:That Borg Icon

[NeverVotedBush]

That icon isn't even relevant anymore.

I think it is still very relevant. Microsoft has not slowed down one bit from their tactics of intimidation aimed at any reseller that dares to load another OS. They still use monopolistic tactics in the marketplace. They still try to sell buggy and unfit software as the greatest thing since sliced bread. They lie. (They claimed Vista was a complete re-write of Windows when it turns out that new XP security holes also exist in Vista. How can that be if Vista code is all new?)

Microsoft has always been far better at bully marketing tactics, stealing code, locking out competitors, and squeezing the customer for every penny they possibly can, than they have ever been at producing a good reliable and secure operating system.

I believe the Borg comparison is still entirely valid.

Re:That Borg Icon

[kalidasa]

Let me guess - that's the dumbest f***ing icon you've seen in all your time on Slashdot?

Re:That Borg Icon

[Garabito]

Whooosh!

Re:That Borg Icon

[operagost]

Good luck. The screwed-up American flag hasn't been fixed in the five or so years it's been around (it's missing the top red stripe).

Re:That Borg Icon

[rizole]

Sorry! You do not have authorization to view this story.

Re:That Borg Icon

[PixelScuba]

So you're saying something like this would be more appropriate?

Re:That Borg Icon

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's time slashdot grow up as well."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Yeah, right. It's time Microsoft stopped being a monopoly, too.

Re:That Borg Icon

[Anonymous Coward]

...is one of the best aspects of Slashdot.

Re:That Borg Icon

[ClosedSource]

"I believe the Borg comparison is still entirely valid."

Than why didn't you list the reasons you believe the comparison is valid? I get your opinion that MS is evil, but being evil isn't a unique aspect of the Borg. The Borg were not into marketing hype or spin, they simply had the best technology around. Do you want to say the same thing about MS?

Re:That Borg Icon

[Carewolf]

I always thought he was "monkey-boy" named after his famous dance-moves?

Dumbest F*ing Thing huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

"that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft."

So when steveb came for his interview, he really must've been sleeping.

Re:Dumbest F*ing Thing huh?

[dotgain]

I guess you don't know how Steve B came to work for Microsoft.

Continuation

[Anonymous Coward]

"that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft..... It needs to be harder to run programs, and slower How else would Dell sell those XPS's?!"

This explains a lot

[WrongSizeGlass]

At some point in your presentation billg will say "that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." He looks like he means it. However, since you knew he was going to say this, you can't really let it faze you. This explains why no one put a stop to IE, ActiveX, UAC, etc. when he said it. So I guess Mr. Gates isn't responsible for everything wrong at Microsoft ... it's the people who didn't listen to his good judgment. ;-)

Re:This explains a lot

[twitter]

So I guess Mr. Gates isn't responsible for everything wrong at Microsoft ... it's the people who didn't listen to his good judgment. ;-)

That's the dumbest fucking thing I've seen since I've been at Slashdot.

Oh wait, that's a joke. Never mind, but I'm still not responsible for anything but your success.

Re:This explains a lot

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the dumbest fucking thing I've seen since I've been at Slashdot. Didn't look in a mirror recently, then.

It's all about presentation.

[PhxBlue]

Maybe you should've spent less time on the PowerPoint slides and more time thinking about how your idea was going to (figuratively) grab Billg around the throat and shake him until he said, "That's the best idea I've ever heard since I've been here at Microsoft."

I mean, shit, do you really think you're going to impress the CEO of Microsoft with a PowerPoint presentation, of all things?

Re:It's all about presentation.

[writermike]

Maybe you should've spent less time on the PowerPoint slides and more time thinking about how your idea was going to (figuratively) grab Billg around the throat and shake him until he said, "That's the best idea I've ever heard since I've been here at Microsoft."

I mean, shit, do you really think you're going to impress the CEO of Microsoft with a PowerPoint presentation, of all things?

I've worked with bosses like that. Presuming you could impress them, they'd never let you know it. They still tell you your idea sucks and that you suck and that they don't understand why they hired you in the first place. They wish you were dead, sock you in the gut, etc. They're bullies. That's the point of the article, I think.

In general, however, I don't know if this story is an example of 'billg' so much as it is an example of asshole bosses, of which there are legions.

Re:It's all about presentation.

[Taagehornet]

It might also be that the idea wasn't any good after all...

Not all former MS employees hold a grudge. Joel Spolsky appears thoroughly impressed with his former boss: My First BillG Review

Re:It's all about presentation.

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, shit, do you really think you're going to impress the CEO of Microsoft with a PowerPoint presentation, of all things?

You should probably at least learn who is CEO of Microsoft, so you won't embarrass yourself when giving presentation / posting on Slashdot.

Re:It's all about presentation.

[gardyloo]

Gates was CEO until 2000.

Re:It's all about presentation.

[DogDude]

Somehow, I doubt that any good CEO is going to be impressed by a Powerpoint presentation, itself. It's the content that they're interested in, not the color of the clip-art. You could also hand them a sheet of paper explaining whatever it is you're trying to explain, as well. A good CEO isn't an idiot that's going to be swayed by pretty pictures.

Re:It's all about presentation.

[l3v1]

They still tell you your idea sucks

And there are ones that tell you that your idea sucks only to come around a few days later and tell you a revolutionary new idea that he'd come up with - yep, you're idea. Some do that intentionally, some are just too f*cked up to even remember who's idea that was in the first place.
 

Re:It's all about presentation.

[failedlogic]

That management style might work for some people positively but I think in the end most people want some acknowledgement of thier idea.

I've seen many policy changes and products where I've worked that were good ideas. But not great fucking ideas (GFI). Its that difference that makes people buy, promote and increases sales. I think a lot of companies need the GFI plan. Hell, if a company has this as its policy, I WANT TO WORK THERE!!!!

Re:It's all about presentation.

[egyptiankarim]

I remember learning about this managerial style from George Bluth who constantly shot down his son's business ideas in order to keep him constantly striving to gain his approval. I'm still waiting to read the Slashdot post about BillG burning his hands on a cornballer :)

Re:It's all about presentation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good story. Thanks for sharing that link.

Re:It's all about presentation.

[Anonymous Coward]

yep, you're idea

No, I'm not!

Re:It's all about presentation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because he is gay... and likes to be fucked. Its just a microsoft bich, better at writing than programming

Poker

[Tribbin]

No wonder he's ####ing good at poker.

Oh, go see 'Pirates of Silicon Valley'. You'll enjoy it.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0168122/

Re:Poker

[Anonymous Coward]

So if MS have a bad quarter, he just drives on down to Vegas for a few hands?

Re:Poker

[MojoStan]

Oh, go see 'Pirates of Silicon Valley'. You'll enjoy it. I enjoyed it, but if you see this entertaining made-for-TV movie, understand that this movie gets many facts wrong. I guess the real stories weren't interesting enough for prime time television. If you know the real stories, this movie's inaccuracies might be annoying enough to ruin your viewing experience.

For Slashdot readers, I think a far more fascinating (and accurate) video is Robert X. Cringely's PBS documentary Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental Empires. I think this documentary is where Apple fanboys got their often-quoted "M$ has no taste" line (from that black turtleneck guy). The transcript is available at PBS's site.

reminds me of the stories about Henry K.

[Anonymous Coward]

After a State Dept. staffer turned in their first report to the big boss, it would frequently come back with a scrawled note indicating it was totally unacceptable, slipshod work, etc. The staffer would go back and spend the next couple weeks furiously researching and revising before submitting a completely rewritten draft. Back would come the comment that it was "not good enough -- should be much more thorough". After another three weeks of research, the staffer would add a cover letter to the latest rewrite begging the boss to specify where the report fell short, since the staffer had now spent practically all of their waking hours over the past two months working on it, etc.

"In that case", Kissinger would say, "I'll read it".

Re:reminds me of the stories about Henry K.

[kestasjk]

Apparently Lee Harvey Oswald became somewhat disillusioned with the Kennedy administration when he got that response from Kissinger.

Re:reminds me of the stories about Henry K.

[chernevik]

As I've heard the story, Kissinger's notation on each version was neither abusive nor specific -- just, "Is the best you can do?" As the story goes, the author finally walked in after version three or four and said, no, I can't do any better -- and then Kissinger said he'd read it.

Re:reminds me of the stories about Henry K.

[jollyreaper]

After a State Dept. staffer turned in their first report to the big boss, it would frequently come back with a scrawled note indicating it was totally unacceptable, slipshod work, etc. The staffer would go back and spend the next couple weeks furiously researching and revising before submitting a completely rewritten draft. Back would come the comment that it was "not good enough -- should be much more thorough". After another three weeks of research, the staffer would add a cover letter to the latest rewrite begging the boss to specify where the report fell short, since the staffer had now spent practically all of their waking hours over the past two months working on it, etc.

"In that case", Kissinger would say, "I'll read it". Well, we always knew Kissinger was an asshole.

"Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy." - Henry Kissinger, quoted in "Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW's in Vietnam"

Re:reminds me of the stories about Henry K.

[WilliamSChips]

Which is pretty odd considering that Kissinger wasn't secretary of state until Nixon.

If you think he is a bully during presentations...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you should see that bastard during the regular mandatory Satanic rituals that all MS employees must attend. Suffering a powerpoint is nothing compared to watching the flying entrails of an infant. The company gym and caf is nice and all, but I'm wondering if I made the right decision.

Creepy...

[oogoliegoogolie]

"that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at xxxxxxx."

I've heard rumors that that the same line can be heard at my corporation, in addition to fist-on-desk pounding, and finger pointing. No chair-throwing though, yet.

Re:Creepy...

[fedxone-v86]

Since you seem to work in the porn industry[NSFW] it actually makes sense to hear that phrase a lot.

So he's copying from Steve Jobs too?

[aristotle-dude]

From TFA:

At some point in your presentation billg will say "that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." He looks like he means it. However, since you knew he was going to say this, you can't really let it faze you. Moreover, you can't afford to look fazed; remember: he's a bully." That sounds a lot like Steve Jobs except for the closed eyes and rocking back and forth. Couldn't Bill Gates even come up with an original management style?

Re:So he's copying from Steve Jobs too?

[crazyeddie740]

That sounds a lot like Steve Jobs except for the closed eyes and rocking back and forth. Which sounds a lot like Asperger's. Maybe there is some truth to the rumors?

Re:So he's copying from Steve Jobs too?

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I've read, Steve Jobs would be like this:

Guy with idea: "Today I'm going to talk to you about the iCock .. the world's first programmable vibrator."

Steve Jobs: "Okay. Go."

Guy: "The iCock has the potential to---"

Steve Jobs: *after 10 seconds* "Why is it shaped like that?"

Guy: "Uh, it has to--"

Steve: *interrupting again* "There's no way to fit a battery in there that's powerful enough. My wife would never buy it."

Guy: "We ran some--"

Steve: "This won't work." *gets up and leaves after 2 minutes*

So, he's subtly different than Bill Gates. Bill Gates wants you to squirm, probably because he was bullied as a child or some shit. It really doesn't matter what he thinks of your idea. Steve Jobs genuinely wants good ideas, but if you don't have one, you have zero value to him. Pure arrogance.

You can see the results of the differing philosophies in their respective products.

Re:So he's copying from Steve Jobs too?

[DreadfulGrape]

I'm not a bit surprised by this. Yeah, Jobs' assholishness is legendary, but so is Ballmer's. Attitude flows down from the top.

I mean, this is the guy who built a monument to his ego into the side of mountain, right?

Re:So he's copying from Steve Jobs too?

[ClosedSource]

"You can see the results of the differing philosophies in their respective products"

I don't know, their philosphies seem quite similar to me. Gates doesn't like to put fans in his software and Job's doesn't like to put fans in his hardware.

Obviously

[Z00L00K]

that may be one way of managing things. It may just be that he tries to unbalance the presenter and see if the presenter is able to catch up. If the presenter is catching up then the idea may not be so bad after all... But the problem here is that this will be much more dependent on the presenter than the idea itself, so in the end it's not a really good filter for good/bad ideas.

This is usually the problem within any organization - people with good ideas but bad presentation skills can either develop the ideas and ask forgiveness later or forget about the whole idea unless they can get the idea to someone that's a good presenter.

It will be far better management style to actually give constructive criticism, but that is also a lot harder.

Re:Obviously

[gEvil (beta)]

Are you saying that management should instead focus on the concepts behind the presentation rather than the quality of the presentation itself? Cos if so, that's the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard. ; )

Re:Obviously

[DogDude]

Every corporation has a culture. That's real. Maybe the top brass have a certain kind of people that they hire, or a certain kind of mentality that they promote, and this is part of it. I know that if somebody comes to me with an idea, if they're not excited about it, neither am I. That's not unusual.

MS in the early 90s

[gEvil (beta)]

msshill: "So Bill, this world wide web thing is really starting to take off in the academic world. I think it's time we started making our own browser and include it with all installs of Windows."
billg: "That's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft."

Yep, sounds about right...

Re:MS in the early 90s

[that this is not und]

Microsoft didn't 'wake up' to the 'World Wide Web' as you term it, until Netscape came along, and started promoting their proprietary server, with proprietary extensions connecting it to their browser, as a means of 'freeing up the desktop' from any particular desktop platform.

Microsoft wasn't interested in putting a LOT of resources into IE until the spectre of the Intranet reared it's head, and Andreesen at Netscape started bloviating on stages about 'taking over the corporate desktop' with web-based applications.

Microsoft's response was to roll out IE as a means of crushing Netscape, stopping the rollout of their proprietary browser with 'hooks' to their servers. It was 'the applications' that Microsoft wanted control over. The Web Applications that still to this day are weak and generally unaccepted.

Re:MS in the early 90s

[Blakey Rat]

I don't get this constant slamming of Microsoft for "missing the web."

They sure as hell beat Apple to it. In fact, as far as home systems go, Microsoft was the first to realize the potential of the web, IMO.

Re:MS in the early 90s

[gEvil (beta)]

They sure as hell beat Apple to it.

That's interesting, because when I got my first Mac in the Spring of 1995 (before Windows 95 was even released), it included the setup program for eWorld, Apple's short-lived online service. One of the things you could do with it was browse the world wide web. Sure, it wasn't the greatest thing out there, but considering this was before Windows 95 and Internet Explorer by many months, I don't get how you can say that Microsoft "beat Apple to it."

Re:MS in the early 90s

[Blakey Rat]

Apple didn't have PPP support (required for modem Internet connections) until version 7.5 or later, IIRC. Before then you had to use a shareware control panel to simulate PPP support. Windows 95 came with this built-in.

I wouldn't necessarily call eWorld the same as "Internet." At the time it was out, AOL also let you browse the actual web. I dunno.

It still seems to me that Microsoft was at worst on-par with other OS makers.

Re:MS in the early 90s

[Zazzalicious]

"Marc Andreessen and Eric Bina originally designed and programmed NCSA Mosaic for Unix's X Window System at NCSA. Funding for the development of Mosaic came from the High-Performance Computing and Communications Initiative, a programme created by the High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991 (or The Gore Bill after its author, then-Senator Al Gore).[5]

Development of Mosaic began in December 1992. Version 1.0 was released on April 22, 1993, followed by two maintenance releases during summer 1993. A port of Mosaic to the Commodore Amiga was available by October 1993. Version 2.0 of NCSA Mosaic was released in December 1993, along with version 1.0 releases for both the Apple Macintosh and Microsoft Windows. An Acorn Archimedes port was underway in May 1994."

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser)

In fact I was browsing the Web on an Acorn Archimedes before MS even had a TCP/IP stack! This was having seen a friend run Mosiac on a Mac and showing me the White House site.

It wasn't until August 1994 that Microsoft released an add-on package (codenamed Wolverine) which provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11.

Microsoft's initial reaction to the internet was to try and replace it with MSN (the Microsoft network), a move which had many corporations wondering whether to go with open web technologies or buy into the MSN 'walled garden' approach to networking.

The first version of Internet Explorer was not even included in Windows 95 although you could buy it as an add-on in the 'Plus Pack!'.

To his credit, BIll Gates realised that the Internet was the way of the future and released the famous "The Internet Tidal Wave," memo in May 1995. Alarmed by the quickening popularity of the Internet, Gates realized that his upcoming products, Windows 95 and MSN, were woefully unprepared for the coming online age.

So, in fact, Windows was virtually the last sizeable operating system to embrace the web.

1) Unix and clones/derivatives
2) AmigaOS
3) MacOS
4) RiscOS
5) Windows

P.S. Of course, the Internet was around for a long time before the WWW happened.

Yep

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked at MS on the VS.NET IDE - a coworker who demoed to Gates told me that the guys who demoed CLR in the same meeting were white as a ghost when he was done with them (though we're nerds in redmond so we didn't get much sun anyway). Apparently CLR was a little slow.

Re:Yep

[ckaminski]

If the SQL 2005 Management Console is any indication of the power and flexibility of .NET (CLR), I don't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

From TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you see that your dead wrong - you may be, he's very smart - best to admit it immediately and move on."

Personally, I see nothing wrong with you're ideas.

Joel on BillG

[Lachryma]

Reminded me of Joel on Software's first BillG review and how he handled it.

Re:Joel on BillG

[andyr]

Mod parent up.

Re:Joel on BillG

[rikkus-x]

Sounds like he handled it like a teenage girl meeting her pop idol.

Re:Joel on BillG

[NDPTAL85]

Joel is wrong about one thing MBA's absolutely CAN run businesses they don't understand. Otherwise Lou Gerstner would have failed at IBM.

Re:Joel on BillG

[Duhavid]

Pish tosh ( I learned that from Dilbert, and it feels good to say it ).

When all the companies are mediocre because they are all run by MBA's, one
minor turn around story is not proof, it might have been random good luck.

Re:Joel on BillG

[rossifer]

Did you know that Joel is gay? If you didn't know that, you can now expect that he would use a slightly different vocabulary from the typical adult USian male. You might even predict that it would appear in his extemporaneous writing.

Re:Joel on BillG

[Anonymous Coward]

What, sucked his dick?

Re:Joel on BillG

[syousef]

I want to hear what he has to say, but I don't like the guy. Every fucking article Joel writes is written in a superior holier than thou "I'm better than you and here's proof" kind of tone. In this case he's boasting about how he managed to out-think Bill Gates and answer Bill's most difficult question - something he claims no one else had ever done. Why doesn't Bill say fuck more than 4 times? Joel claims because he convinced Bill he was right and competent. No mention that this might just have been a good day for Bill, or that he wanted to move on to his next meeting nothing. Joel concludes that his billiance won the day. Well I conclude THAT is the kind of arrogant self-important shit that thrives at MS.

There is no excuse for Bill Gates or any other manager being a rude asshole. It's not needed to show strength, and it's pathetic. I've had very competent bosses that didn't need to use profanity or knock you to the ground to get results from you. I can think of one guy who's a true gentleman even under pressure. So long as you're not a goof off this man doesn't turn into a feral toad, even if you made a mistake where large sums of money are involved SO LONG as you're willing to do what it takes to fix it.

The fact is these "managers" may be successful and may be intelligent but they have the people skills of a grizzly bear and they'll be remembered for the rude twits they are....and so they should be.

As for how Joel handled it, I agree with the other child post - by his own admission like a teenage girl meeting her pop idol, _PERHAPS_ minus the blow-job. He didn't even consider that someone else may have scribbled that crap in the margins of his report and briefed Bill. ...and in the same article he boasts about pushing for the addition of the VARIANT type to VB. For that alone he should be put in jail.

Front page probably being blocked

[Anonymous Coward]

by those who have to read through "NetNanny" or "CyberSitter" with all that cussing. Won't somebody think of the homeless??

Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

It's been 10 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

FUCK YOU!!! You goddamn shitheads!!!

he's a bully

[no-body]

he's a bully

Sounds more like an abusive jerk.
Fits right with Ballmer throwing chairs.
Definitely needs some "special" energy to do what Microsoft is doing.

Maybe he pulled it off

[MikeRT]

Few people can pull that off. If it's understood that once you pass the trial by fire, the boss respects you and your work, I can see that becoming the sort of thing that would make people feel like they'd earned their place and work harder. Like passing the crucible and becoming a marine. However, I can also see that becoming just an excuse to abuse people. In fact, I have not personally met a manager that treated their employees so harshly that was a good one.

Then there is also the fact that if you underestimate someone, you might end up backing someone into the corner who can make you look like a total moron. I can imagine that would be great for a boss who already struggles for respect...

Sounds like Law & Motion.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Gates' dad is a lawyer. He came from a family where "cross-examination" in a legal sense probably went on from time to time (i.e. questioning a hostile witness). It sounds like he was inculcated with the culture.

Also, when dealing with judges, particularly when the witnesses or jury are out of the room, lawyers can face something that can be pretty similar to what was described here. So, ok, it's hard on the computer scientists, but welcome to what lawyers get to deal with all the time. It's an accepted practice.

Long and short of it--make sure your thinking is done BEFORE you present. Otherwise, as is to be expected, you're toast, whether the "toasting" is done by the CEO or a judge.

Re:Sounds like Law & Motion.

[sgt_doom]

It's worse than that....I believe if you keep going back a few more generations you'll find he comes from cattle-rustling stock. (Remember that Olde Wild West poster: "Cattle rustlers and other varmints will be hung.")

Or maybe that pertained to the Bush Crime Family.....

Re:Sounds like Law & Motion.

[Tablizer]

Bill Gates' dad is a lawyer. He came from a family where "cross-examination" in a legal sense probably went on from time to time (i.e. questioning a hostile witness). It sounds like he was inculcated with the culture.

I believe *both* parents were lawyers. Now we know what happens when lawyers interbread...

Re:Sounds like Law & Motion.

[bjb]

I remember reading something about Bill's childhood in one of his books or interviews. The example I can note was that his family was very competitive, even against each other. They would (say) have a race across the back yard (or pool, whatever). Whoever won was praised, whoever lost was chastised. May not explain his management style too much, but certainly speaks a bit about his drive for success.

Isn't that what

[www.sorehands.com]

Isn't that what he said about many idea before he stole them?

Application for CEO Position at Microsoft

[ThanatosMinor]

Qualifications include being able to transition seamlessly between high functioning autistic and Simon Cowell during presentations and board meetings.

I'm glad bgates has parlayed that into a marketable (and enviable?) skill. It gives the rest of us needlessly cruel bastards something to dream about while rocking back and forth in our chairs.

Hmmm

[El Lobo]

As with any other important figure out there, people tend to make stories, than with time, becomes legends. Everyone that has meet him has a "story", that brings us a little picece of his(her= point of view about the person in view (Gates, in this case). And we, the readers think that we know a lot about him because of those (often very subjective stories). And he is not dead yet. 10 years after his dead there will be legends told about how the guy spoke to you while smoking a USD 100 bill, or something similar...

Slash dot is now yellow press.

So where was his brashness when it was needed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, "that's the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard" didn't come out of his mouth when the Microsoft Bob idea was pitched to him. What went wrong?

Re:So where was his brashness when it was needed?

[CornfedPig]

um, he married the product manager

if only billy

[ak3ldama]

said "that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard..." a few more times in the early and mid 90s. Perhaps after hearing dumb ideas constantly he just gave in to them.

Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[Flying pig]

I had one of those bosses. Only my idea wasn't just dumb fucking stupid, I took too long to tell it. (Well, he did have a degree in journalism, and you could see how that would fit you for CEO of a tech company.)

Only, being naive and not realising this was just challenge #101, I left, joined a small company which just grew and grew, then left after a difference of opinion with the CEO, then joined a startup which just grew and grew. Interestingly, our CEO is able to motivate people without a single swearword.

It's nice for Microsoft that it is so big and all, but (as Scott Adams notes somewhere, I think) all the really smart people prefer to live in Switzerland as compared to the US, i.e. to live somewhere where even politics is truly local and individualism is valued versus somewhere where the driving forces in society are completely out of your control and individualism is just having a different alignment of ballpoints in the pocket protector.

It must have been really exciting and creative to work for Microsoft - once. Perhaps some of the pent up anger in the founders, if it is reported accurately, is simply because, even for them, it's no fun anymore.

Re:Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[DogDude]

It sounds like you were the wrong personality type for the company(ies?) you worked at.

Re:Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[Flying pig]

Don't you think that a large company should be able to accommodate more than one personality type among its managers?

BTW the jerk CEO managed to lose the Director of R&D, two other senior VPs, and the technological lead over the main competitor, before leaving after less than 2 years. My mistake was trying to explain to him why US designs could not be sold in the European market.

There is a TV program on in the UK at the moment called "The apprentice". You won't want to know the details except that it's like every other wannabe famous program, but the Simon Cowell role is played by someone called Alan Sugar. One thing the BBC doesn't tell you is that while it is true that Sugar once ran a (slightly downmarket) tech company, it went up and then as spectacularly down, and his present prosperity is based on his property development company. The BBC is promoting the idea that you have to be like that to be a successful businessman, but it is a moronic distortion of the truth.

Re:Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[DogDude]

Don't you think that a large company should be able to accommodate more than one personality type among its managers?

No, not necessarily, especially at the top levels. Every company is run differently, and personality can be very, very important in some companies, and especially important at the top levels of large companies. People have to work very closely together, and make lots of decisions together, many based on gut feelings, so yes, I think that personality is quite important when you're talking about business leadership. A quiet, meek VP at MS is going to be about as successful (in doing his job) as a loud, party-throwing VP is going to be at a Christian book company: not very.

Re:Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[allenw]

I suspect the UK version of "The Apprentice" is based off the US show of the same name that has been running for several years now. The "boss" is Donald Trump in our version.

... which is rather ironic considering that you had issues explaining why a US design wouldn't work in the European market. That doesn't appear to be true for television, at least. :)

Re:Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[Breakfast Pants]

It is funny you mentioned Scott Adams and politics in relation to an article about about Bill Gates--as I recall, Scott Adams was recently seriously advocating for a Bill Gates presidential campaign.

Re:Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[jcr]

That's not alpha-male management style, it's beta-male with something to prove management style. What you could also call the Napoleon complex. Bill Gates is a revenge-of-the-nerds type, who doesn't have the character to behave decently when he's in a position of power.

-jcr

Re:Ah the joys of alpha male management style

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the UK version is based on the US original.

Almost Right. I fixed it for you

[HighOrbit]

msshill: "So Bill, this world wide web thing is really starting to take off in the academic world. I think it's time we started making our own browser and include it with all installs of Windows."

billg: "That's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft. By contrast, over here is the best idea I've seen in a long time; its a new user-interface paradigm. I call it 'Bob'"

a lot bettr than Balmer

[SQLz]

Balmer just throws chairs at you during the presentation. If you can't dodge them, then your fired. Its that simple.

Re:a lot bettr than Balmer

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can dodge a chair, you can dodge anything.

Re:a lot bettr than Balmer

[windex82]

Which isn't that bad a deal considering after the resulting lawsuit you will likely not have to work anymore anyway!

Re:a lot bettr than Balmer

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you can dodge a car, you can dodge a chair"

Re:a lot bettr than Balmer

[Thwomp]

Sounds like a childhood of playing Donkey Kong wouldn't be wasted if you were at Microsoft.

Re:a lot bettr than Balmer

[WilliamSChips]

Neo: Are you saying I can dodge chairs?
Morpheus(Google): I'm saying that when the time comes, you won't need to.

Shock and awe

[akypoon]

It's a pretty common tactics to throw your presenter off guards. Some people use this as a way to gauge the competency of the presenter. I know one university professor who is famous (or notorious, depends on your perspective) for using this tactics.

Re:Shock and awe

[Quiet_Desperation]

Some people use this as a way to gauge the competency of the presenter.

Or he could just be an asshole.

Re:Shock and awe

[suv4x4]

Some people use this as a way to gauge the competency of the presenter.

Or he could just be an asshole.


Bill Gates is an asshole.
Steve Jobs is also an asshole.
Linus Torvalds is an asshole.

See a pattern there? If you gotta be an asshole to get succeed, and you're a very smart asshole who knows exactly what he's doing, then by all means, do it.

Doing business is a war, no more or no less. If you miss a trend, or fail to predict the market reaction or whatever, your business may go down faster than you could process it. A war requires military precision. Would you rather your leader be an asshole so you're always sharp and prepared for any opportunity, or be dead (i.e. fired, out of job, bankrupt).

Re:Shock and awe

[MrWhitefolkz]

Maybe he's so famous, hes infamous!

Re:Shock and awe

[ClosedSource]

I think that asshole CEOs get more attention than equally successful CEOs with a decent personality, so it's easy to jump to the conlusion that being an asshole is a requirement for success. Both Gates and Jobs have made some major business blunders that were the direct result of their ego problems.

Re:Shock and awe

[Quiet_Desperation]

Doing business is a war, no more or no less.

Well, no, that's what the bussiness people want everyone to think so they seem manly and big penisy, especially the female executives.

You use military leadership to kill people and break things. You use business leadership to inspire and build.

So there is no excuse to be a perpetual fucktard asshat toward employees. That's not genius or leadership, that's mental illness, social immaturity and simple jackassery.

It continues because *some* people excuse it, and because too many people get their philosophy from business Book Of The Month clubs.

Would you rather your leader be an asshole so you're always sharp and prepared for any opportunity, or be dead (i.e. fired, out of job, bankrupt).

Speaking personally, I avoid false dichotomies.

Re:Shock and awe

[suv4x4]

Well, no, that's what the bussiness people want everyone to think so they seem manly and big penisy, especially the female executives.

You use military leadership to kill people and break things. You use business leadership to inspire and build.


Inspiring and building isn't what business is about. It's about making money by selling products and services, or speculation, or anything.

As such, no one is awarding you for how inspiring your leadership is, but what's the bottom line.

The fact that things get build and developed is merely a side effect, since incidentally people will pay/watch certain things, so businesses adapt to that.

In modern business, surviving isn't just about creating marvelous things, but also knowing how to destroy the competition, fairly or not, knowing when to kill some of your products, so another can bring larger profit, knowing that you gotta fire Joe who has four kids and a wife with no job, since he's incompetent and interferes with the work of the whole team.

Business is cruel, man. "Anything goes", even stuff outside the law, which some corporations can afford (such as MS, but of course, also their own competitors).

Hands Down.....

[surfduke]

Vista was the F$@#(*^& dumbest idea in Billy G's tenure at MS!

The Story of Bob

[hansamurai]

melindaf: So I've got this great idea, it's this little smiley face that helps you manage your tasks and do your work!

billg: That's the dumbest-

melindaf: You want some tonight or not?

billg: ...

melindaf: How about we call it Bob.

there is only one thing to do....

[3seas]

post a link...

http://www.bullyinginstitute.org/

Don't let me get in the way...

[Jeian]

Don't let me get in the way of everyone's dogmatic Gates-hate, but Linus Torvalds operates in a similar way.

"I'm always right. This time I'm just even more right than usual." Torvalds, Linus (2005-07-14). Message to linux-kernel mailing list. Retrieved on 2006-08-28.

"If you still don't like it, that's ok: that's why I'm boss. I simply know better than you do." Torvalds, Linus (1996-07-22). Post to comp.os.linux.advocacy newsgroup. Retrieved on 2006-08-28.

That's all, return to your ranting.

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[PPH]

Bill and Linus may have similar approaches to their product, but its how they deal with people that differs.

Gates seems to spend more time cutting people down than ideas. When you're making a proposal to management, you need to be prepared to have it picked apart. But that needs to be done constructively and without making it personal.

It appears to me that Gates is trying to play 'tough guy'. This is a technique I've seen on jobs requiring physical strength but not much thinking. The biggest, toughest, meanest guy gets to be foreman. But it doesn't fit well in the white collar world. I've heard it referred to as 'Big Mans Disease'. I've seen quite a bit of trouble in my travels consulting for various engineering firms where people avoid a blow hard. When this person is in a position of authority, the organization can practically fall apart.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Microsoft is able to hire any competent professionals who don't have some sort of self esteem problems given the culture that Gates and Ballmer have created.

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[eclectro]

I think that it is quite a long stretch between "I know better" and "that's the dumbest f--k--g idea that I've heard..."

Really, two different statements entirely.

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[Maestro4k]

Don't let me get in the way of everyone's dogmatic Gates-hate, but Linus Torvalds operates in a similar way.

"I'm always right. This time I'm just even more right than usual." Torvalds, Linus (2005-07-14). Message to linux-kernel mailing list. Retrieved on 2006-08-28.

"If you still don't like it, that's ok: that's why I'm boss. I simply know better than you do." Torvalds, Linus (1996-07-22). Post to comp.os.linux.advocacy newsgroup. Retrieved on 2006-08-28.

This isn't comparable to what Gates is doing in the article. According to that Gates would tell everyone that their idea was "the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft." and didn't really mean it. He was saying it simply to make the presenter defend their idea, not saying "you're wrong and we're not going to do it that way". In both of the above quotes Linus is seems to be saying that he's right and that they will be doing it his way.

Linus could certainly be more tactful with how he worded those things, but I do note a distinct lack of cussing and (at the least) less drastic hyperbole. And how about some context to those quotes? On the second one at least I found you left off a bit before that that makes the whole thing much less worse than it sounds: "In short, at least give the penguin a fair viewing. If you still don't like it, that's ok: that's why I'm boss. I simply know better than you do." I don't think it's unreasonable for Linus to be taking that attitude about the mascot that will define the OS that he created. He was apparently listening to input on it anyway, more than you can say for most people in that situation.

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't let me get in the way of everyone's dogmatic Gates-hate, but Linus Torvalds operates in a similar way.

"I'm always right. This time I'm just even more right than usual." Torvalds, Linus (2005-07-14). Message to linux-kernel mailing list. Retrieved on 2006-08-28.

"If you still don't like it, that's ok: that's why I'm boss. I simply know better than you do." Torvalds, Linus (1996-07-22). Post to comp.os.linux.advocacy newsgroup. Retrieved on 2006-08-28.

That's all, return to your ranting.

But with Torvalds, such comments are made in a public forum where the entire community can observe and respond.

The victim therefore is automatically in a much better position, (assuming the comment is undeserved).

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[Lord Ender]

All that shows me is that Linus has a great sense of humor.

Seriously, he sounds like he has a witty, insensitive, and intelligent personality. People who are secure and confident will have a laugh and get along great after hearing things like that, while sensitive people might break down and cry.

I'm the same way. People either like and respect me, or think I'm a total jerk, depending on how strong (psychologically) they are.

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[pz]

"In short, at least give the penguin a fair viewing. If you still don't like it, that's ok: that's why I'm boss. I simply know better than you do."

With the more complete context, my reading is that he was being playfully facetious!

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah; you're just a self-centered jerk. Grow up and realize that rudeness does not equal strength.

Re:Don't let me get in the way...

[WilliamSChips]

Of course, nobody works for Linus, and if people want to leave Linux kernel development, they don't have to find another job and another paycheck.
Also, Linus's statements are half-sarcastic.

If you're interested, also read Joel Spolsky

[dont_run]

If this subject interests you, then you should also read Joel Spolsky's account of his first BillG review: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.htm l

Re:If you're interested, also read Joel Spolsky

[Anonymous Coward]

sure... because joel has unbiased opinions about microsoft

Stop cowering before managment...

[Original Replica]

I've never understood why people don't just leave in workplaces like that. It' s not like you have some good reason for company loyalty if the management is indeed a bunch of irrational fucktards. Don't just quietly leave, explain clearly why you are leaving. You like the job and the pay is fine, but there is too much internal bullshit to make the job worthwhile. When Billg says "That's the dumbest idea I've heard ..." respond by saying "You are wrong, it is an excellent idea. Your criticism is niether constructive, nor professional. I will be taking my ideas elsewhere." Then immediately leave the room, perhaps the building. So before you present your idea to Billg you should look for a new job. Hopefully you won't need the new job if Billg actually does see the value of you idea, but much more importantly he will also have to acknowledge the value of you. Sure, he still might want you to prove your idea to him, but Bill Gates is smart enough to be able to come up with insightful questions without being rude. I can only imagine this technique is an artifact of Bill Gates being, on some level, scared shitless of the size and responsiblity that MS has become. It's a "trick" that might work with some reliablity, but it's something he should have outgrown long ago. Management can only treat employees like shit when we let them, they need us at least as much as we need them. Following these princples I've doubled my income (and respect from managment)in the last three years. No, not all of this happen with one employer. I did have to walk away from one stable, but poor quality of life, job.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[try_anything]

I just walked away from such a job. Actually, I'm still working there through this Saturday, then moving to a new job next Monday.

I wasted three years of my life thinking I could learn to work with the insecure dickhead. Then I realized that I hadn't thought about anything except keeping the guy placated in two years and hadn't done any decent work since I started thinking that way. And the guy wasn't going to fire me. All he cared about was the fact that I put up with his shit. It pleased his ego to crap on me every day and pretend that he was being soooo generous by being nice to me occasionally and essentially assuring me a lifetime job. He wanted everyone to know how generous he was, so he let everyone know (especially me) that he thought I was crap, then praised me loudly for minor successes.

I wouldn't be too hard on Bill Gates. It sounds like the nice guys got weeded out pretty fast at Microsoft, which means Bill Gates wanted to work with people who could stand him. REAL insecure dickheads love beating up on people who don't call them on their shit. I'm pretty nonconfrontational. If I can't make progress at the intellectual level, I don't escalate the fight to the emotional level. I just take myself elsewhere, which I what I SHOULD have done two years ago. Anyway.... Bill Gates didn't want to beat up on people who didn't fight back, he just wanted to work with people who could thrive under his management style.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[1mck]

Good for you for quitting!!! I worked at a software company as a sales manager, and the fucking CEO/Manager with this bi-polar, ADD, fucking asshole! The fucking nut would not train us, but yet expect us to know the products, and demonstrate them, and they he would say that if we had any questions we could come and ask him. Yeah, right...I did that once, and he blew up at me, and told me that I got myself in a corner, and I was just stupid for doing that...I should have realized right there that I was working for an asshole, but I had to stay for financial reasons at first, but later on, when I was able to get out of the hole finacially, I quit, and I left professionally unlike him. I'm more angry with myself right now for staying as long as I did, but tomorrow morning I start my new job as an entry level technician, and I'm happy to say that I even used my letter of resignation from asshole in my interview...I think it helped me get the job!lol

Bill Gates was a skinny nerd, who was probably beat-up, and picked on really bad in school, and this is his way of compensating, and making himself feel superior. Now, he's the bully, and every time someone lets him win it just validates him even further. He'll get his eventually, and this turd of an operating system, Vista, is it...just wait and see:-)

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[dcollins]

Don't just quietly leave, explain clearly why you are leaving. You like the job and the pay is fine, but there is too much internal bullshit to make the job worthwhile. When Billg says "That's the dumbest idea I've heard ..." respond by saying "You are wrong, it is an excellent idea. Your criticism is niether constructive, nor professional. I will be taking my ideas elsewhere." Then immediately leave the room, perhaps the building. So before you present your idea to Billg you should look for a new job.

That's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been on Slashdot.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[johansalk]

2 reasons. 1) the rent 2) there's the same bullshit everywhere.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[puppetluva]

respond by saying "You are wrong, it is an excellent idea. Your criticism is niether constructive, nor professional. I will be taking my ideas elsewhere." Then immediately leave the room, perhaps the building.

This is terrible advice. I hope no-one reading this thinks that acting so self-righteously is a good idea. Telling people off is never a good idea. Jerks don't need to be told that they are jerks -- they usually already know it -- and they'll usually take it out of your hide when you whine about their abuse (sociopaths like Bill Gates like to punish people who don't take their abuse lying down).

If you are working in a place where you are used/abused like this, you should find something better to do with your life/time, but always act as the better person and be professional the whole way out the door. Defend your ideas objectively, but nothing constructive comes out of passing abusive negativity back and forth. . . and usually the jerk in charge will get the last laugh if you fall for their bait.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[hxnwix]

Bill G, composed of a complex set of heuristics, considers many viewpoints and conceivable game states in pursuit of value for Bill G. Additionally, Bill G doesn't include your viewpoint in these calculations because fuck you.

Considering his enormous fortune, Bill G may be regarded as efficient and successful entity insofar as it improves Bill G's hand.

Original Replica, composed of a set of heuristics, considers some viewpoints and game states in pursuit of value for Original Replica. Additionally, Original Replica doesn't include Bill G's viewpoint in these calculations because fuck Bill G.

Considering with an enormouse beer in his hand, hxnwix regards the situation coolly: "don't hate the player, hate the game."

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[Shajenko42]

Don't just quietly leave, explain clearly why you are leaving. You like the job and the pay is fine, but there is too much internal bullshit to make the job worthwhile. When Billg says "That's the dumbest idea I've heard ..." respond by saying "You are wrong, it is an excellent idea. Your criticism is niether constructive, nor professional. I will be taking my ideas elsewhere." Then immediately leave the room, perhaps the building.

Personally, I don't like to help such people with actual useful advice, even if they won't take it. I'd prefer to leave them wondering why I left. Let someone else take their abuse for telling them why they're wrong, and if no one else will, so much the better.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[*weasel]

I've never understood why people don't just leave in workplaces like that.

Probably because anyone who had to present to billg during that time was making boatloads of cash.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[Anonymous Coward]

I followed the same path. I should have quit sooner. But the new opportunity that was worth quitting for did not appear on my radar screen until I left the old job.

I spent 8 years building a global IT dept. from scratch. During this time, the company went from $25 million in revenue to about $150 million. At about the 4-year mark, my boss (the CFO) was replaced by a new CFO. This guy was right out of Dilbert. He considered himself knowledgeable in IT because he was once a Novell Netware sysadmin (you just can't make this stuff up!) He seemed determined to get rid of me, practically from day one. It took him 4 years, but he finally did it. Within 6 days, I was hired by the competition. Life is much better now. A bad day at my new job is still better than a good day at my old one.

As Microsoft says, "The Wow Starts Now." The company is about to be sold. Although my old boss was a total zero as a manager of anything, he really knew how to make financial deals. I'm sitting safely at a new job, working for the competition, looking to invest the cash that comes from selling my company stock. The new owners are almost certain to chop up the company and sell off the pieces. My old boss is probably getting a golden parachute. The guy they hired to replace me is probably looking for a new job. The only real casualties are my old staff members, who truly deserve a better fate.

Re:Stop cowering before managment...

[Original Replica]

It is in fact more unprofessional to just quietly take as you leave, while the boss may know that they are a jerk, they rarely see the consiquenses of thier actions. Losing a good employee and knowing directly that it is because of their immature abusive attitude is the only way to ever improve working conditions. You're advice is on par with turn of the century factory workers getting injured working unsafe machinery and staying quite about it because they are good company men. Why are you so afraid of being honest with an abusive boss?

Different from I heard it

[Anonymous Coward]

The staffer, after having turned in the report, was asked "Is this the best you can do??"

Staffer took back his report and worked on it some more before handing it in again.

Still same question "Is this the best you can do?"

Lather, rinse, repeat a few times.

When handing in the report for the Nth time, he was asked that very question again: "Is this the best you can do?"

Replied the staffer: "Yes sir, it is!"

Replied H.K: "Well, in that case, I'll read it."

another conversation

[Anonymous Coward]

billg: "that's the dumbest fucking idea i've heard..."
presenter: "this is madness!"
billg: "THIS IS MICROSOFT!!!" *looks at steveb and points to a chair*

Re:another conversation

[Anonymous Coward]

this made me laugh out loud. damn, where are my mod points? haven't had them in a while

Re:another conversation

[Pecisk]

For those who need a clue what it is all about: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/

Nice movie, a little bit campy, but somehow with spirit. Made me do a little personal research on subject, as I'm little bit of history geek. Good acting from Butler.

The whole comapany is that

[Quiet_Desperation]

"Get it into production immediately."

Sounds like a great manager

[rjamestaylor]

That story of the Flood-fill rewrite makes Billg sound like a great manager. So does being the richest guy in the world...

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[try_anything]

No kidding. He's smart enough to accept both the upside and the downside of his development decisions.

Bad managers insist on cutting corners, then refuse to believe that their code is fragile and buggy. Or they insist on doing everything carefully and methodically, but schedule the version 1.0 release date as if they were going to release crap.

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[rjamestaylor]

Huh? Your comment made no sense.

I was meaning that he was able to view a superior implementation without emotional attachment for his own work.

Not sure what you meant. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase it in understandable communication.

Or, maybe I'm drunk.

Probably the latter.

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[try_anything]

Bill Gates is a smart guy who could have written the code right in the first place, but he decided to do a quick and sloppy job instead. Later, when confronted with the need for a rewrite, he didn't try to weasel out of the consequences of his original decision.

Bad managers want to enjoy the upside of their decisions and blame the downside on somebody else. In this case, the upside was presumably that Bill saved time by writing a slapdash flood-fill implementation. The downside was the eventual need to stop and rewrite the flood-fill algorithm correctly. Bill accepted the downside gracefully instead of denying the need for the rewrite or getting all pissed off about the delay.

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[jcr]

Bill Gates is a smart guy who could have written the code right in the first place,

On what do you base this assertion? I've never seen any evidence of coding skill on Gates' part, and the quality of his company's products over the years would tend to support the opposite conclusion.

-jcr

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[asninn]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[dhavleak]

Well, you have to admit he's got skills since he pretty much wrote Microsoft's basic compiler. Whatever you might think of basic as a language, it takes an above-average developer to write a compiler. Heck, parsers by themselves can be pretty darn tough to get right..

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[AKAImBatman]

Well, you have to admit he's got skills since he pretty much wrote Microsoft's basic compiler.

Microsoft had a BASIC compiler? (!?!) Could have fooled me.

As it happened, Microsoft BASIC wasn't that great of a product. Atari ended up contracting another company for BASIC after Microsoft couldn't deliver a good enough product, and Commodore effectively rewrote the interpreter based on a flat-fee source license. The only reason why Microsoft gained the popularity it did in the home computer market was because they were the first to the table with a BASIC product. (Altair BASIC, in case you're wondering.)

If Microsoft hadn't jumped on the IBM PC deal when they did, they would have been just another road-kill on the highway of technology companies.

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[jcr]

Well, you have to admit he's got skills since he pretty much wrote Microsoft's basic compiler.

Ever heard of a guy named Paul Allen?

At any rate, if you'd ever read that compiler, you wouldn't be so impressed.

-jcr

Re:Sounds like a great manager

[Daniel Phillips]

Bill Gates is a smart guy who could have written the code right in the first place... Really? I seem to recall that GWBasic used a linked list for the lines of the program, so code at higher line numbers executed more slowly and one way to speed it up was to remove all the comments. Somebody might be able to provide a memory refresher on this. Anyway, personally I believe that Bill Gates is a hazard to good software, I have seen evidence enough of that.

Untouchable crap

[toby]

This parable illustrates how personal defects get in the way of quality. If the code is crap, the code is crap, no matter who wrote it. If politics or sensitive egos block improvements, quality suffers. Compare EgolessProgramming.

This "my code is perfect" attitude is alive and well. A friend of mine started a new job recently and found that his boss:

• Considered himself in the top 1% of programmers
• Described every line of code he had written for the company's application as "perfect"
• Refused to use any version control system, yet was part of a team
• Wrote no comments, and no documentation

Re:Untouchable crap

[75th Trombone]

This parable illustrates how personal defects get in the way of quality.

Dude, did you even read the comment you were responding to?! It said that Gates ALLOWED THE FIX!! I mean, I don't think Bill Gates is some kind of role model or anything, but having someone come into your office to unwittingly call your own code "crap" to your face, and then going along with what that person says, is NOT a "personal defect" of any kind.

Re:Untouchable crap

[b0s0z0ku]

This "my code is perfect" attitude is alive and well. A friend of mine started a new job recently and found that his boss:

I was working for an engineering company (automation systems), and the owner was always testing us. One day, he told me to write some code. Unbeknownst to me, we was also writing the same code, in competition with me. He finished before me.

Only problem? His code had several flaws and wouldn't work if we had run it. Thinking that this was another test, I politely pointed out the errors. His response was to turn purple and scream -- "you little bastard, go home for the day..."

I didn't take this too well -- my response was, "I've been waiting a long time to say this to you, since you've been an asshole to me since I've started -- FUCK YOU MAN, I'm leaving for good." I saw him turning even more purple with anger and mouthing words as I walked out the door. At the time, I was hoping for a heart attack at least, but thankfully I didn't give him an apoplexy -- he had a family and I'd have felt guilty :)

-b.

Re:Untouchable crap

[jcr]

Dude, you shouldn't have said that. You should have said "Fuck you, you incompetent prick !".

BTW, at a very young age, I worked for a company whose founder had quite a problem with self-esteem, so he was the limit of how good an engineer at the company was allowed to be. The upshot was that there were a series of people who would come in, get one product out the door, and then the boss would piss them off and they'd leave.

What I learned from that, and what I'm applying now at my own company, is a policy of hiring people who are better than I am at what they do. If they're not better than I am yet, then they're more talented than I am, and they will be better than me with a few more years of experience.

-jcr

Re:Untouchable crap

[Hal_Porter]

He has no honour. A true Klingon programmer would have killed the upstart where he stood.

Re:Untouchable crap

[Lord Ender]

This illustrates an interesting side-effect of slashdot's karma system. When people get positive feedback for saying something insightful (in the form of + moderation), they tend to say the same or similar things more often, even when they don't apply, in an effort to get more karma.

The result is that slashdot has the most insightful prose of the open web forums, but the conversation is somewhat discontinuous.

How to make a company work by bullying

[robla]

....is not an interesting problem to solve.

It's hard to argue that Gates' persistent bullying was anything but good for shareholders for at least the first 13 years of public trading. Even though the stock price has been relatively stagnant for the past few years, revenue and profit growth are proof that the company still has healthy numbers.

However, anyone considering working there needs to ask themselves what they really want to accomplish in life. Looking back, it can't be very fulfilling to say "I helped make that company successful. I fit in, by emulating the bullying, belittling style of my bosses all the way to the top, and now look what we've created!"

There are plenty of companies out there (*cough* [1]) who are trying to be successful while actually also having the kind of environment where you look forward to seeing the people you work with. Having hippy-dippy ideals creates plenty of problems, but they are way more interesting problems than the problems you find at a company like Microsoft.

1. Shameless plug

Re:How to make a company work by bullying

[Maestro4k]

It's hard to argue that Gates' persistent bullying was anything but good for shareholders for at least the first 13 years of public trading.

Hard to, but not impossible. I personally wonder how many good ideas were ignored because an employee didn't feel they could defend it to management yet. I know some people would argue that if they couldn't defend it then it wasn't a good idea, but sometimes you have to work on an idea for a while before you can just how good (or bad) it is. By ignoring things that you can't defend right away you lose out on many potentially good ideas. Also MS probably lost out on some very intelligent and creative employees that didn't want to deal with that type of work environment, again affecting the bottom line.

I guess it boils down to this: while the shareholders did quite nicely from MS's management style, we'll never know if that was just a small fraction of how nicely they could have done if they'd been less abusive.

Re:How to make a company work by bullying

[TheLink]

It's not even a new problem to solve.

There were plenty of ancient _empires_ that got big by bullying (and worse), and guess how most of those leaders behaved.

Do we really want more of this? They only get more powerful if they can bully others to help them.

Re:How to make a company work by bullying

[Blakey Rat]

So you work for a company that makes 3D masturbation software for furry fetishists and pedophiles, and that's better than working at Microsoft? Ok...

Re:How to make a company work by bullying

[jcr]

I disagree. The floods of cash they've made from catching IBM's fumble, and then applying illegal tactics to drive Lotus and Wordperfect out of business masked the fundamental problems that are now biting them on the ass.

-jcr

I worked for Evslin - he's not all that

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in Tom Evslins group while he was at Microsoft. He was not the genius or as self aware as he presents himself to be. He was more responsible for exchange slipping & having no direction than anyone in the company.

Luckily for Microsoft, Brian Valentine was able to recover from that & push Exchange out. Say what you like about Microsoft, but Exchange Server did more to make email a reality for corporates than any other product.

Re:I worked for Evslin - he's not all that

[JustNiz]

>> Exchange Server did more to make email a reality for corporates than any other product.

Not at all.

Many companies had unix-based email WAAY before Exchange even came out. Then when it did, some non-technical higher-up usually decides the company should 'upgrade' to Microsoft exchange.

I've been at several companies where exactly this happened and exactly the same result too: Before the upgrade, we had an email system that just worked, and never needed any maintenance. After we switched, we needed to hire a whole office of support staff to deal with the day-to-day issues of ongoing Exchange problems.

I'm always surprised how long its taken them to come round to moving back to Unix/Linux solutions, but they all did in the end.

Re:I worked for Evslin - he's not all that

[the_B0fh]

Bah. Exchange is to email what the Boston strangler was to...

What a piece of shit email server.

Re:I worked for Evslin - he's not all that

[fungai]

Whatever your thought on Exchange was, install 2007 and then know why you should shut up. I used to resist Exchange because of bad experiences with 5.5 - however they've moved on quite a bit since then. So should you.

Re:I worked for Evslin - he's not all that

[JustNiz]

..and you should learn to stop being rude.
I just posted my actual experiences. I don't need to 'move on', but you need to move up from the gutter.

Re:I worked for Evslin - he's not all that

[Anonymous Coward]

Exchange Server did more to make email a reality for corporates than any other product.

You mean besides cc:Mail? Or Pegasus?

Your statement shows your age and lack of experience. The world of corporate networks were dominated by Novell before Microsoft. Corporate email was a serious reality long before Exchange existed.

Re:I worked for Evslin - he's not all that

[JustNiz]

Lol,
Millions of lines of code just for a glorified email server.
No wonder Microsoft are screwed.

Difference in authority, isn't it?

[wimmi]

Linus wouldn't be paying my salery at the end of the month, he'd only be rejecting my patches.

*That's* a big difference with doing a tense presentation of one's "little baby idea that could win them all" being shot down rudely by the CEO himself.

I probably quit talking to mr. Gates at the point when he doesn't even bother to look at me while I'm talking to him. Rude people, these CEO's...

Re:Difference in authority, isn't it?

[Khaed]

I dunno, I'd be more likely to take a bunch of shit from someone who was paying me. someone who isn't paying me? I'd just tell them to fuck off.

the difference is, of course, Linus isn't being as abusive as Gates.

Re:If you think he is a bully during presentations

[PhxBlue]

Suffering a powerpoint is nothing compared to watching the flying entrails of an infant.

You're right. There's significantly more entertainment value in the latter.

(That's a joke, mods ...)

Three words:

[Anonymous Coward]

Theo de Raadt

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

The dumb fucking idea was..

[mrkitty]

Support in windows for the internet circa 1994.

The Actual Correct Response

[jbrader]

When billg says, "That's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft," what you should reply is, "Bullshit, how could it be any dumber than a talking paper clip?"

Re:The Actual Correct Response

[JFMulder]

Actually, that might be a bad idea. I think Clippy was a side product of Microsoft Bob, which was helmed by Bill's wife at the time. So that would be a sure way to get you fired. :P

Re:The Actual Correct Response

[alisson]

Which raises the point: Bob was a dumber idea than clippy.

Also, can we tag this article flamebait? :/

Re:The Actual Correct Response

[StikyPad]

what you should reply is, "Bullshit, how could it be any dumber than a talking paper clip?"

Pfft, that's just giving him ammunition.

Possible responses:

"I don't know *how*, but if this is repeatable, we'll have to rethink the laws of physics."
"Are you kidding? Clippy came up with that idea during Beta 1. We ALREADY fixed that bug."
"Because, unless there's something you've neglected to mention, it doesn't include nookie!"

Re:The Actual Correct Response

[AdamThor]

If BillG says 'That's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft' every time, to every body - and assuming that this was not the first time I'd presented to BillG - I'd be tempted to say something along the lines of "So my idea from last week is starting to look a lot better, huh?"

What a crock.

[twitter]

his management style is/was, a key ingredient in its success may have been in the fact that he's a really smart guy who wants to be convinced of why your ideas are right, and while he's a tough customer, he can be convinced.

There were several key ingredients to the M$ success but treating employees like shit is not one of them. Bill came from a rich family and was obsessive. Where a normal person might spend their youth pleasing themselves with relatively unlimited resources, Mr. Gates created M$Basic. His big break came from IBM, which propelled DoS and then Windoze to dominance. The only place his asshole nature did M$ any good is the way he treated competitors but the end of the story has yet to be written.

No one else has won, and that's a situation that never lasts long. Family connections and piles of money have helped shield him from the consequences of his antisocial attitude. Most people get tired of that unless they like groveling before insecure dick heads. He has done two decade's worth of harm to industry, laws and morals of the world and the results are more obvious every day.

People who treat others like shit prove they lack forsight, not how smart they are. What goes around, comes around. You can get the same immediate results with better manners and willpower that's built on intelligence rather than insecurity and cruelty. The backlash is growing.

Re:What a crock.

[StikyPad]

What goes around, comes around.

That's just a platitude people use to make themselves feel better. The truth is, what "goes around" rarely "comes around," unless you believe in an afterlife. I'm not implying that actions don't have consequences, rather that the consequences are frequently borne out by other people. Naturally, if the injustice becomes too grievous, then legal or vigilante actions become more likely, but if you impose on a lot of other people just a little (take spam, for example), rather than imposing a lot on a smaller group or a single individual, then your actions are unlikely to result in particularly negative consequences, (which is why spam exists.) In fact, the mere fact that society needs to create laws and consequences is evidence, in and of itself, that the cliche is incorrect -- if it was, we'd have no need for these things because people would get what they deserve.

Take Mr. Gates for example. Even if a backlash comes, as you predict, it won't likely affect him. He's got enough money now that his biggest challenge is deciding what to do with all of it. Even in the unlikely event that Microsoft stock crashed in the next 10 years, he'd still have enough money that maybe he wouldn't be giving any more away. And that would actually be a negative consequence for the benefactors of his charity.

At any rate, if being nice was effective, we'd have cheerleaders in boot camps instead of drill sergeants, and life coaches instead of prisons. People often need to be confronted (in a -- wait for it -- confrontational manner) in order to a) be sure they know what they're doing, b) get them to rethink a situation, and/or c) motivate them. Item C is especially true in cases where people have all of what they need and much of what they want (which is most people in first world countries such as ours). Nobody will chase a carrot when they have a steak right in front of them.

Of course there are exceptions, and examples of people who go to far, or productive employees who leave; maybe even entire staffs who leave, but there's no perfect strategy. Being a confrontational leader -- being a dick -- *is* generally effective, like it or not.

Difficulties are meant to rouse, not discourage. The human spirit is to grow strong by conflict.
- William Ellery Channing

Re:What a crock.

[The Bungi]

You didn't read the follow-up, twat. You should.

I know that in your small occipital cavity a phrase that contains both "Bill Gates" and "bully" is one to be cherished, exploited and regurgitated endlessly to enforce your "M$ sux" routine. But really, stop "evangelizing" and start thinking for yourself. Things in the real world (you know, where most of us live) are different, and something that in yours might be cause for dispairing outrage and golf claps from your friends are nothing more than normal. I don't know Gates and I have no idea what he really is like, though I do know that I would never want to work for Microsoft (various reasons that are irrelevant here). But if this article is anywhere near the truth, I have counted people very much like Bill Gates as leaders and mentors that have taught me many valuable things about how to succeed in what I do. "Bully" does not necessarily translate into your mental image of the term, regardless of how much you want that to be so.

Parent is factually accurate (!)

[SEMW]

Believe it or not, the parent is actually pretty much spot on, according to Wikipedia -- Melinda French, "who at the time was Bill Gates' girlfriend" was project manager of Bob.

The store of a man in a meeting

[icepick72]

At some point in your presentation billg will say "that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft."

Sounds like a /. story to me: one sentence extracted from time, the experience of one previous Microsoft employee. Maybe it was the dumbest idea and that's why the guy doesn't work there anymore, bitter as he might be.

Bow Down Before the One You Serve!

[twitter]

Visual Basic 1.0 had just come out, and it was pretty friggin' cool.

It's hard to believe anything after that, but the bit about how Bill wanted the new thing to exactly conform to software written for 640K of RAM without rational dates or timezones sounds right.

He was flipping through the spec! [Calm down, what are you a little girl?] ... He Read The Whole Thing! [OMG SQUEEE!]

That's what it takes, I suppose. No thanks, I'd rather be free to do things the way I want them done.

Now you know why no INNOVATORS work at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Innovative people can see the MS Management behavior, and wont work at that
place.

Google on the other hand is getting all the innovative people.

Decisions

[hachete]

At least

1. He makes decisions
2. He lets you know what he thinks

Must fucking managers never do either then back-stab you into oblivion. No, not bitter. Not bitter at all

Microsoft was progressive for its day

[robla]

I think that Microsoft's culture did represent a huge improvement over the status quo of the day (before IBM got knocked off the top of the hill). While Microsoft was (and I'm sure remains) very hierarchical, the brutally frank conversations that happened there up-and-down the management chain were welcomed, whereas in most organizations, people worried about getting fired for even the mildest criticism of their bosses. Free soft drinks and casual Monday through Friday weren't the norm when Microsoft was first started. Generous stock options for rank-and-file employees also wasn't the norm, and even though Microsoft wasn't entirely unique in this regard, they were unique in offering MSFT stock options, which, for a while, were worth *a lot*. So, I think they can be forgiven for thinking "if they can't take the abuse, let 'em work for IBM". It's easy, in hindsight, to wonder how much better they could have done by using the state of the art management practices of 2007, but not much more useful than to wonder how much more productive Isaac Newton could have been with a computer.

However, they have a tougher job now. Stock options don't motivate the way they used to, and there are very few places left that think its a good idea to require good CompSci graduates to come to work dressed in suit and tie, so there's no remaining competitive advantage in having a lax dress code. I really hope for their sake that the hundreds of old timer managers there have broken a lot of the really bad habits that have gotten them to this point, or else the next generation of stars they need to recruit are going to look elsewhere.

He sounds like

[JustNiz]

a rude, annoying little dick with small-man syndrome.

My reply.

[Tiger Smile]

The dumbest thing ... since you've been at Misrosoft?? Okay, and I guess the guys that pushed for MS Bob and Clippy also went through this process. Wow my stuff must really stink. Okay Billg, let me know how this product would could be at least that good. hahahahahahaha

Ya, but did you read his biography?

[msimm]

I mean, if someone is going to put the smack-down on me, at least Linus would make me laugh. Call it personal preference, but he is genuinely funny and I'll always give credit for that.

Possible answer

[DVega]

BillG: that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft.
TomEv: Even more than Microsoft Bob?

"He's a bully"

[Master of Transhuman]

Uh, you left out the part about how he's also a GREEDY bully...

But, yeah, that pretty much sums up Bill.

HE is "the dumbest fucking idea he's seen at Microsoft". HE is why Microsoft will go down.

gem of irrelevance

[toby]

Now look at the context. LKML is, if nothing else, an eternal debate between intelligent individuals.

MS is a fiefdom, riddled with politics, inflexible, where the billionaire cadre at the top are entirely insulated from reality, and every other layer of the pyramid wants what they've got. Furthermore, they're well known to be gold plated dysfunctional assholes.

If Linus were a gold-plated asshole, the rest of LKML would soon figure it out, and go do something more rewarding than sniff his butt crack.

Money greatly distorts and/or corrupts personalities and companies. This is one pathology the Linux community doesn't share.

Re:gem of irrelevance

[Raenex]

Linus is an asshole. He admits it himself. He also has somewhat of a gold-plating by being the creator of the operating system named after him -- you know, the one he owns the trademark to? It's a network effect. He'd have to really piss off large numbers of people to make them abondon ship.

I understand completely now

[bl8n8r]

If a senior manager ever said that to me I'd say "Ok" and walk out faster than you can crash Vista. No wonder Windows is in such dire shape. Who the hell wants to present ideas to a five-year-old? I finally understand how Clippy and Bob came to be; just the kind of thing a five-year-old would find entertaining.

Re:Two Words:

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree as well, shallow and pedantic.

Re:Hey, Windows/Linux refugees!

[HeroreV]

The only thing funnier than a Mac user is a Mac user who doesn't realize that a Mac is a PC.

Bill G is nuts

[Organic Brain Damage]

Rocking back and forth with his eyes closed, shouting out obscenities. He's like the friggin' rainman.

However, he did manage to inspire most of his software developers in the late 1980's, early 1990's. I have stories from 4-5 of my friends who went to work for him in Seattle in the middle years. They were all like cult members, thrilled to get an email from BillG.

How many programmers have worked for any large ($100 million / year or more) company with a CEO who actually knew iteration from recursion? Not many. No corporate culture is perfect. They're all pscyho (based on 10 years consluting for 20+ Fortune 500 companies). It's just how are they psycho and is it a psycho you can live with?

Apparently BillG has grown out of most of that behavior. Maybe it was having kids? Maybe he's just refined his acting in public. He's a damn-sight less psycho than Ellison.

Let's look at Bill through another lens...a scary twilight-zone question lens: Who'd you rather have babysit your 4-year-old for a weekend?

Bill Gates, Steven Jobs, Bill Joy or Richard Stallman?

Re:Bill G is nuts

[IvyKing]

Let's look at Bill through another lens...a scary twilight-zone question lens: Who'd you rather have babysit your 4-year-old for a weekend?

Bill Gates, Steven Jobs, Bill Joy or Richard Stallman?

From what I've heard about Bill Joy, he would e heads and shoulders above the other three as a babysitter - he's frequently described as being one of the most mature people involved in the computer industry.

Couldn't pay me enough

[Xybot]

..to take crap like that. I don't care how rich/powerful the man is he can damn well pay attention if I'm speaking. I'd have walked out.

Yes, a Ballmer Borg icon will do.

[master_p]

"We are the Borg. Lower your source control systems and surrender your open source software. We will add your chairs and furniture to our own. Your software will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

Microsoft logo for the 21st century...

oh really?

[Ender Ryan]

Slashdot getting rid of that wonderful little icon would prove once and for all that Slashdot is no longer worth visiting.

ZFS rant from yesterday?

[IvyKing]

Maybe that's why ZFS was developed at Sun instead of the Linux community - then again, I'd be really surprised to see something like ZFS developed at MS.

I worked at MS in the early 90s too

[Wabbit Wabbit]

For 6-odd months I was a programmer with MCS (Microsoft Consulting Services). MS had just rolled out NT 3.1, and were just on the way to becoming an Evil Empire, which is actually why I quit.

I met billg during an MS-internal NT programming course in Seattle once, and he was obssessed with VB. Wanted everything done in VB. When I described the C++ work I was doing on some real-time newsfeed and stock quote applicaations for some big-name MS clients in New York, he started hammering me on why I wasn't using VB.

I was either too stupid or too naive or too hungover from the pervious night out to care, but I argued right back at him, telling him VB had a looooong way to go on the API front, the performance front, the stability front, etc.

He looked like he was ready to lock horns (and he was still *just* technically aware enough to have actually had an almost-descent tech conversation with), but his handlers ushered him away.

I got a good reputation after that for being utterly fearless, but for me that meeting was the metaphorical writing on the wall and I left soon after.

Given their products, is anyone surprised?

[rsk]

Is anyone surprised that THIS is his management style, and the end result is Vista? I have to say that as soon as I used Vista and saw what 5 years of work had wrought, I freaking called it. You don't need a degree in Asshole to know that type of management style will realized a product as mis-guided, discontiguous, disorganized and buggy as Vista.

I've had an opportunity to work for people like this before, and the resulting project was identical to how Vista turned out. Made no sense, every week "Priority #1 was something different, and not determined by any intelligent estimation, but instead by how pissed off the manager was and how much screaming he did. So whatever he screamed about on Friday's meeting was Priority #1 for the next week... until the next Friday when he didn't care about that issue anymore and it was something else.

Personality types like this are the most poisonous in any kind of relationship (work, personal, etc.) and never bears any sort of recognizable fruit.

Actually I don't even think I need to type the last sentence... the result speaks for itself doesn't it?

• http://www.macobserver.com/stockwatch/2007/04/30.1 .shtml/ - Mac to Gain More Market Share
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_%22Vienna%22/ - Microsoft Already Working on Vista Replacement
• http://www.breakitdownblog.com/2007/01/22/why-vist a-sucks/ - Why Windows Vista Sucks

Oh god - a new management fad

[QuestionsNotAnswers]

I wonder who will write the book...
At least they will be able to use some good evil quotes that nice books can't use :)

Highschool

[Anonymous Coward]

Never had a real job in your life, eh?

Re: He sounds autistic to me

[Douglas Goodall]

Eyes closed, rocking back and forth. This doesn't surprise me much.

Damn Hippies

[x00101010x]

If this was anyone but BillG@microsoft.com, like say google, I bet people would be applauding the genious of the nihilistic zen approach to making sure people have thouroughly thought through their proposals before brining them to the head cheese.

Re:Damn Hippies

[Drooling Iguana]

If this type of approach produced the reasonably well-done products that Google puts out then there'd be reason to applaud it. Instead, this is the approach that produced Windows Vista.

My first review with billg...

[Anonymous Coward]

Me: Sorry I'm late...

(end of my career at MS)

Mod parent up

[turing_m]

I think I punctured a lung over that one.

Bullies

[Z34107]

The appropriate thing to do when confronted with a bully is to either a) ignore them, or b) make everyone else see how wrong they are

Dude, I totally agreed with that one kid when he said being drowned in a toilet at the wrong end of a swirlie was, well, wrong. Too bad a) ignoring things rarely fixes them and b) having everyone agree with you that getting beat up every day after school is wrong won't keep you from getting beat up after school.

Violence is rarely a "good" solution to a problem, but that's not to say it can't solve problems, or that it never is a good solution to a problem. I guess I'm one of those silly folk who believe self-defense can be justified.

Re:Bullies

[tsa]

Some people will only listen to violence. But that is a detail I wouldn't teach my children until they were old enough to realize that life is not black and white like they teach you at school.

Re:Bullies

[drsmithy]

Too bad a) ignoring things rarely fixes them;

It frequently "fixes" bullying. Why ? Because it is attention that bullies crave. Deny them that and they will move on.

and b) having everyone agree with you that getting beat up every day after school is wrong won't keep you from getting beat up after school.

Unless, of course, someone else decides to take the bully to task for being such a dickhead.

Violence is rarely a "good" solution to a problem, but that's not to say it can't solve problems, or that it never is a good solution to a problem.

Not something I've disagreed with. However, violence is most certainly not a solution to the argument of someone telling you your idea sucks, as previous posts advocated.

I guess I'm one of those silly folk who believe self-defense can be justified.

Punching someone in the face because they hurt your feelings is in no way, shape or form, "self defense", even for children. For adults, it's both stupid (since it's likely to get you sued (and justifiably so)) and immature (because, when you're an adult, reason is a far more viable alternative to take than violence).

I find it telling that the only two replies to my post have to resort to using schoolyard dynamics to justify opposing it.

sounds familiar?

[ClosedSource]

Bully? Disrespect for people's opinions that differ from his? Sounds like many of us hear on Slashdot.

Re:sounds familiar?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the dumbest f@$%ing thing I've heard since I've been here at /. ...

I just proved your point, didn't I?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

The old Kissinger joke

[ClosedSource]

President Nixon, Henry Kissinger, the Pope, and a hippie were riding in an airplane. Suddently there was a loud pop and then they can no longer hear the engines. The pilot tells them that the plane is going to crash, but there are only three parachutes for the passengers. Nixon jumps up and says as leader of the free world he should get a parachute, so he puts one on and jumps out of the plane. Henry Kissinger then stands, exclaims that he is the smartest man in the world and should therefore have one of the parachutes, and then he jumps. The pope turns to the young hippie and says that he has lived a long life and is ready to meet God, so the hippie should take the final parachute. Whereupon the hippie says: Don't worry, father, the smartest man on earth just jumped out of here with my backpack on!

easy response

[germ!nation]

Bill: that's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft. You: You mean like the internet, Bill?

Microsoft's not alone

[bogidu]

I read most of the comments so far and it's pretty apparent that most posters do not work for large corporations. This particular managment style is NORMAL in corporate America, and most of those companies are PROUD of this particular corporate culture.

The part of the article that I found MOST useful, and would wish that management in some of these companies would learn is this:

--
"Two problems with this approach: one is that kinder and gentler people, who may be still be very smart, get stomach aches and other unpleasant symptoms when they gave to confront bullying. Microsoft lost out on some people who could have contributed but couldn't take this kind of heat. Second problem is that the bullying gets emulated down the line. There was nothing quite as absurd as a newly-hired college graduate thinking he could be as smart or rich as billg if he could only manage to be as rude."
--

The assumption that only pushy, loudmouthed, arrogant ass----- have good ideas is ridiculous. However in companies that push this particular style of 'self-representation', only those individuals' ideas will be heard. In this day and age when many people acknowledge the abilities of autistic people (who might not good self-advocates) how many truly remarkable ideas are lost? I would LOVE to work for a company that found better ways to extract meaningful new ideas from it's employees rather than the brute force method.

As for the second point, in my time in the corporate world, I've seen MANY rcg's immediately adopt the 'brute force' approach to dealing with their peers due to the examples set by management. I perceive that these traits that are being taught early in the careers of our future leaders will only serve to make the future work place culture even worse than what we have now.

That's the dumbest fucking management strategy...

[dvoecks]

that I could imagine. Word is obviously out that he berates people who present ideas to him. You don't want your employees sitting on potential goldmines because they're afraid to present them! I'm sure there's already a layer in place to vet the ideas so that he doesn't have to waste his precious time (time that he undoubtedly spends beating puppies to death in front of orphans). I could understand him trying to organically limit the number or ideas presented to him, but I wouldn't run the risk... Anybody convinced enough in their own idea to put up with that and soldier on may just have the determination to quit their job and take their idea with them.

To all Bill Gates Bashes here on Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize he is a fellow Atheist.

It is a fundamental truth

[Maxo-Texas]

That management doesn't know anything.

So they have to push until the point of failure. Then they know they reached something "real".

So it is very wise to fail early in minor ways and on things you do not want to own.

Let someone else "succeed" at doing the crappy stuff so you are available to do the good stuff.

And excel at doing good stuff.

And never ever get mad or upset. A key quality of managers and being promoted to managers at many companies is never losing your cool. There is a reason they call it acting "professionally".

Work causes Autism

[bill_mcgonigle]

I believe *both* parents were lawyers. Now we know what happens when lawyers interbread...

There's some truth to that I think. Most genetic 'abnormalities' have significant benefit in single-recessive forms (and the more complex multi-gene arrangements). Autism fits this pattern and there's a 90% genetic contribution to Autism (from twins studies).

So, what's the best way to make more children with double-recessive traits? Encourage husbands and wives to meet at work. It's not hard to find the pattern - certain fields and workplaces attract certain types of people, and they're more likely to have similar genetics (to the degree that genotype and phenotype are correlated).

Lots of things happened in the 20th century: the Income Tax, WWII, Womens' Lib, Computerized Dating, spike in Autism.

There might be something to be said for meeting your spouse at a bar after all.

Re:Work causes Autism

[Tablizer]

meet at work. It's not hard to find the pattern - certain fields and workplaces attract certain types of people, and they're more likely to have similar genetics (to the degree that genotype and phenotype are correlated). There might be something to be said for meeting your spouse at a bar after all [instead of work].

Bar? Same issue: kid is more likely to be an alcoholic then. Kant win :-)

I hate that saying.

[2short]

For one thing, of course correlation implies causation. Correlation does not establish causation. If two factors are strongly correlated, it doesn't prove that one causes the other, but it's a bloody good hint there is some sort of causative relationship going on between the two, or possibly a third factor.

For another thing, it doesn't have anything to do with the case at hand. If we all agreed that Bill was a great manager as well as very rich, and we further agreed that very rich people tended to be great managers, we could debate whether richness and great managerhood were related by causation or mere correlation.

Lifecycle of Bullies & Empires

[dakirw]

There were plenty of ancient _empires_ that got big by bullying (and worse), and guess how most of those leaders behaved.

True, but in the end, just about every single empire went into decline and was destroyed or became greatly diminished.

Re:Lifecycle of Bullies & Empires

[TheLink]

Though just about everyone dies eventually, doesn't mean we should be happy with there being more assholes, or people supporting them.

Re:Lifecycle of Bullies & Empires

[dakirw]

Though just about everyone dies eventually, doesn't mean we should be happy with there being more assholes, or people supporting them.

Oh, I don't disagree. It's just that a lot of these types delude themselves into believing that they can build something lasting, and these structures really only last as long as they have the money or power to prop them up.

Oh, really?

[Valdrax]

If Linus were a gold-plated asshole, the rest of LKML would soon figure it out, and go do something more rewarding than sniff his butt crack.

Then explain why OpenBSD hasn't collapsed under the weight of Theo de Raadt's award-winning personality.

Attitudes of Bill Gates

[bertfromburke]

Let's not judge those who bring in new technology and paradigms. General Larry Skanske (I may have the spelling wrong) lead the Air Force over the introduction of stealth technology, precision guided weapons, and information dominance was known to recieve briefings while appearantly asleep. IF the briefer paused to allow the General to awake, he would reply, "I am listening" His leadership allowed the introduction of technology which has minimized "collateral damage" (read civilians harmed) and entered in the era of smart weapons. [I reserve the title of brillian weapons to those developed after his term of office] If he appears asleep, judge him (or her) by the decisions, not the actions of the presentations. Thanks