Slashdot Mirror
Europe's Galileo Program In Serious Trouble
elrous0 writes "Various news outlets are reporting that Europe's Galileo program is facing a serious financial and technical crisis and may be permanently stalled. The European program, designed to be a superior answer to the US's GPS — and, more critically, not controlled by the US — has faced numerous hurdles since its inception. To date the Galileo program has succeeded in launching only one of its 30 planned satellites and has been beset by delays and cost overruns. Apparently, squabbling between the eight companies in the consortium behind the project is responsible for many of the problems. The project is now threatened with an EU takeover. But some doubt that even an infusion of EU capital can save the flagging program."
I'm a EU citizen, and I applauded the Galileo program. Especially, because at least we would gain a bit independence to the US. (I was for a European Army too, provided that all national armied be disbanded... That idea was highly critisized by the US too). Anyway, this is typical EU technology stuff. Good idea in the beginning, bureaucracy kicks in, budgets get busted, scientists get frustrated and leave for the greener pastures in the US (or elsewhere), etc... etc... etc...
Eurofighter... same kind of mess. The only thing the EU is good at is creating papers and using my tax money. Okay, that and technically they are responsible for keeping peace (within EU members states) for over 50 years. A fucking long time in Europes history.... Well, it's a high price for peace, but it's the only reason I'm not against the EU.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
The US GPS system is available worldwide, and with the increased amount of definition now I wonder why they want to invest so much money creating their own. Perhaps a joint US / Europe project to utilize one system, would be cost efficient.
Well, you can always use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS
Oh wait...
For those of us old enough to remember, this sounds very familiar
Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
This is a classic case of "too many cooks in the Kitchen"
I suppose I can understand their not wanting to have a completely US controlled system. However to not have one true master over the project can often lead to trouble. This is what has crippled the Airbus 380 project. This will be a problem far into the future for any EU project.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
I mean, they did so well with Airbus...
The EU has enough problems as it is. I wonder how the European taxpayers feel about the EU potentially bailing out Galileo.
This is what happens when you dive into a program like this motivated by little more than spite.
Emotions wax and wane. If you project is based off little more than the sentiment of "Fscking Americans...", so too will the ability of the project to function.
Is a re-implementation of a GPS-like system a laudable goal? SURE!
Is the "Fscking Americans..." sentiment a good basis for such a goal? NO EFFING WAY!
And, if the simple goal of having a product like this outside of American control remains the primary goal, it's just doomed to fail. All you'll do is spur the people working on the GPS system to out-innovate you and out-compete you.
"Gailileo offers X resolution"
"GPS offers variable resolutions up to 3X+1, is time-tested and stable, has thousands of apps in-place already, yadda yadda, oh and did we mention yadda? Oh, and our licensing terms will cost you less than half what any competitors can offer you. Do the math..."
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Sounds like EU dude wanted Free Lunch but the other dudes were like "Sorry, dude, can't do it. You have to show me the $$$$$, mkay?" And EU was like, "Oh shit." And the other dudes were like "You gotta pay to play" and EU was like "We thought you were giving it to us for free and you get like exclusive rights and all kinds of extra stuff", and the other dude went "Ya but that is a lot of money I would rather spend it in a nice vacation in Paradise instead, lol, not some radio satellite thingy"... And EU was like "Damn, truly there is not such thing as a Free Lunch."
So they both said, "Oh wait, we almost forgot! Joe Taxpayer will be happy to pay for it... he doesn't need that extra money anyway, he gets paid overtime and gets all kinds of benefits and shit, so after we build our spaceship thingy, everybody is happy, and then we can both do a nice beach vacation in Paradise, and have drinks with little umbrellas, and enjoy the sandy goodness under the warm sun."
I can throw as many stones as I wish; my house is made of transparent aluminum.
The original GPS program was built by the DOD, meaning nearly unlimited funds. Since GPS doesn't require subscription, i can't really imagine much of a business model for something like this. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new tech, but really why is this needed? Does anybody really need anything better than CM accuracy (which is possible with today's tech). I suppose that i can see maybe construction crews and such benefiting from a system with extreme accuracy, but a site-based positioning system seems to be a better approach for something like that.
NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
I have made my point
Now I can update my "Risk" strategies.
The world will be mine. My first order of business will be to require all women to wear skirts and low cut tops all the time. If you're caught outside not wearing said clothing, we chop off your legs. Like a reverse Islam.
is it just me or does this sound like the EU in general.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
How can we blame the US for the setbacks?
"... not controlled by the US"
Considering the many proposed benefits of the Galileo system (from Wiki):
* higher precision to all users than is currently available through GPS or GLONASS
* improve availability of positioning services at higher latitudes
* provide an independent positioning system upon which European nations can rely even in times of war or political disagreement.
How important is #3 to the EU? I would say the first two points are the most valuable. Is there any evidence that the US has intentionally crippled GPS in countries it's not aligned with? Seeing as how I could buy a receiver in the US and take a trip to Iran, does the system just not beam back data if you happen to be in an unfriendly zone?
Don't get me wrong, anything that improves on GPS is fine by me. It just seems a little petty to be driven by a "GO HOME YANKS!" mentality instead of a "GO PROGRESS!" one.
More Twoson than Cupertino
I'm looking forward to it, maybe it will lower the cost of aerial & satellite imagery in general - relying on IKONOS, SPOT is expensive
"We beat the Russkies to the moon, HA-ha. Now slash the budget to hell ... except for the pork barrel stuff, of course."
I/they paid for the system. It cost a lot more than the tax payers put up for it and so they are getting some cash.
So how's that government funded European search engine progressing?
[Insert pithy quote here]
Galileo Program is in bankrupt
Please dare to pay your TAX to upgrade your solar system
?
Anyway, it has fuck all to do with spite and everything to do with military independence. It's geopolitics. Whether you like it or not, the EU is gradually unifying into what will become a direct competitor to the US for world resources. Where there are trade rivalries today we will have wars tomorrow, and to conduct a war against a country who controls vital information systems like GPS would be stupidest folly.
Oh, you don't think the EU would ever go to war against the US? Just wait till the oil and water start running out.
Deleted
Well, actually, I think the EU is really just the Germans and the French finally figuring out how to do jointly what they've been trying unsuccessfully to do independently for the last 300-odd years -- conquer the rest of Europe.
Seriously: they have a waiting list to get in. How slick is that? You've got countries falling over themselves, remaking themselves in your image, in order to be part of your empire. Not too shabby.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
In Europe, Amerika navigates YOU!
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
... on the consortium and EU incompetence, apparently from an very pissed off european.
I thought we took care of this guy years ago.
mod parent troll PLEASE
If the EU wants to dominate the world in science and technology, it's really quite easy. Pass a law that says the profits from any investment in European R&D will be entirely TAX FREE for the first ten years after a product / service is released. Obviously, there's some details to be filled in. But I'm sure that the European Parliament can create a commission to develop a concise five hundred page definition of 'R&D'.
[Insert pithy quote here]
If this would've been the other way around - a european solution in practice today, the US would've done the same thing. And in your list of reasons, number 3 would be the most important.
Why?
"USA is a nation of war".
Would the project succeed (which it doesn't seem to do in EU now)?
Yes, because it would've gotten every dollar it needed and perhaps more. Just listen to what the clown in the white house is saying about increasing the funds for NASA's perverted space-hobbies?
In EU, money isn't easily spent on enormous projects like these, but in the US they are, if they are just remotely connected to the army.
And another reason why this is doomed to fail is the failure of open/free systems in a capitalistic world. The US project works because they force users (some of them in EU) to pay loads of money for licenses. The EU project is supposed to be free or at least cheaper. If Galileo would've started a few decades ago, maybe the EU wouldn't have paid for half of it to US as they have today (for all the GPS licenses since)... All you need to do in a capitalistic world is to make sure you screw as many as you can, get the last cent out of everyone, ensuring you get paid for every single thing you do. The US (and perhaps Japan) are good at this, most other nations aren't, where the feeling is that "some things just should be free [as in free beer]".
Of course it'll fail in the global market we have today. War and financially exploiting nations is the only thing that works.
The European Commission (EC) set the May deadline for them to come forward with a single company structure to run Galileo, a chief executive and common negotiating position.
But with little sign of the target being met to the Commission's satisfaction, the EC is now expected to present new proposals to overhaul the project on 16 May.
I know this is Slashdot, but could you please read the BBC article? This is clearly not a bureaucratic problem or a financial problem. The problem is the companies concerned couldn't decide in a reasonable amount of time how to share the very big pie, and the EU is stepping in to prevent delay.
Blaming "The Bureaucracy" is fashionable, but not always correct.
Lies about crimes
CM accuracy is available from GPS???
I wish the receiver in my car knew that!
You should also tell the DoD, they only ensure civilian accuracy to around 50 ft / 15 meters (it's far less accurate in many parts of the world). The Galileo system on the other hand will work with GPS to allow accuracy within a few Inches/Centimeters.
Concorde, Airbus, Galileo - great job, guys.
Can't wait until you all get fed up with US control of the Internet, and decide to make your own internet. Good luck with that one too.
will it be open sourced and copyrighted?
?
The BBC has a great article with the EU founders about why it was created. A quick search instead brought this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6483585.stm
As another reply to your "Huh?" comment said, the EU had nothing to do with economics, and everything to do with preventing another war. If you've been to Europe recently and noticed how citizens see themselves as European first and nationals second, you will see they've done very well on their goals.
Lies about crimes
The OP and the article it refers to make it very clear that the delays are caused by infighting between private companies. Not EU bureaucracies. In fact ... the idea is to call on one of those creaking old inefficient EU bureaucracies to actually get things off the ground. Whether that's a good idea is something else.
;-). That's the real problem.
It's not a question of government versus private enterprise, but one of "too many independent parties"
Your post therefore seems to be largely barking up the wrong tree.
What might have been a much better idea is to give the complete project to one private company and allow it to farm out parts of the work to whomever it sees fit. To US companies as well as EU ones if they are more competitive.
That would result in a radical end to "infighting", a lot more focus, a lot more "bang for the buck", and would also avoid entrusting what is essentially a manufacturing process to a government agency. Look at Arianespace. It works, and it works well.
The problem is of course: which company? Give the whole thing to a French company, and the Germans will growl. Give it to a German company, and the French will mutiny. Give it to a British company, and both will shout
The summary is a little biased but a wiki on Galileo better spells out the reasoning behind Galileo.
The second reason is the more important. Remember, the GPS system is still controlled by the US Military. Civilian usage of the system may be revoked or hindered at any time the military deems fit. In a state of war, limitations or bans may occur. In fact, civilian receivers are limited by design to be less precise than military receivers. While the US military has not exercised these rights otherwise, it is a viable point of concern for the EU.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Please kill yourself.
I, however, see a large difference between quickie "vacations" to the moon and an ongoing service like GPS/Galileo.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
You made a mistake... that's:
"hopefully, not controlled by the US"
(it's not some butcher's arrogance, is it?)
That way, the Europeans can't save up enough money to launch another world war. Two in one century was enough.
The best thing for Americans to do is to mock the EU on Galileo, loudly; enough to get European pride and fluffery up so that it becomes politically impossible to terminate Galileo even if it bankrupts them.
So.. Europe's inability to keep its war off its neighbour's doorstep is the neighbour's failing?
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
So, a project designed by a committee with no real purpose other than to say "this is my toy" failed. I am completely shocked and surprised.
*rolling of eyes*
GPS is a privilege, not a right. The US Government was kind enough to say, "okay, citizens, you can use it, too, but with a tad less accuracy." Well, a few years later, it seems some people get a stick up their butt and suddenly think that GPS is their God-given right. Well, like the internet, it isn't. And just like the internet, just because the rest of the world found a use for it and came to depend on it, doesn't justify complaints of US control.
Bearded Dragon
Oh, about the same as the privately funded Iraq War, thanks.
Except the private enterprise Iraq War has to keep worrying about boosting the share price as well as getting things done. (transporting icecream and hamburgers to the centurions etc)
This of course makes it much more efficient as we can all see...
Well referenced sir. An actual reference rather than a vaguely remembered comic strip version of history.
Long live the EU. I'm much happier with the current set up than how my grandfather or his father had to relate to folk from other European countries. Dying in a muddy trench shooting at somebody who's got no more grudge against me than I have against him because some rich bloke will make some money out of it or because some hereditary fool has some bizarre sense of honour to protect seems a bloody pointless exercise. I have no wish to do it.
Why was the "ha ha" missing from the tag? Oh because its a European failure, not an American one. Slasholes are anti-American, and cry when something fails in Europe.
"Every time I see a comment like this - stating that the US won WW2 I feel like reaching for a gun to shoot you."
That's because the truth hurts, and you'd rather silence it than admit it. Standard, very Nazi of you Fritz. But frankly, if you're anything like your eurotrash ancestors, you'd miss and die a horrible bloody death as I ripped your pansy throat out.
"The US done us no favours - the US didn't even join in until it firmly noticed the war was on its doorstep."
Ah the Euros, so stupid and blind. Why was it "on our doorstep?" Oh, right because you were FUCKING LOSING. Had your ancestors done a better job of keeping it OFF our doorstep, we wouldn't have had to clean things up for you. But you didn't, so we did.
"If the US didn't fight - you too could be speaking German today!"
Only because you chicken shit fucks couldn't fight a cold, much less the fucking Germans (and I say all of this with reference to the continentals, I have nothing but the highest respect for the British, and include them when I say "we" won the war). Don't blame us because your sorry asses got steamrolled and we looked out for you, yeah we were self interested, but SO FUCKING WHAT? Occupied France didn't mind when that we were a little self interested. Belgium was ok with it. Need I go on or does your moronic Euro ass get the point?
YOU fought, lost, and nearly got conquered. WE fought, WON, and saved your idiot asses in the process. THAT is fact, so crybaby all you want about it, but your excuses are like your fighting, pathetic and not up to the task.
Some history lesson Euro. It's easy to forget the truth when you've had fifty years of propaganda jammed down your throat, but for someone who claims to know what he's talking about, you seem to repeatedly avoid the fact that YOU WERE LOSING. Then WE showed up, and YOU WEREN'T LOSING ANYMORE.
So shut up now.
How about an American company?
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Of course it has stalled, and will probably fail. But not because it's inferior to its' U.S. counterpart. And not because of financial or other reasons they would have you believe are the cause. Galileo will quite simply fail because government interests are actively thwarting the effort. Do you really think that the current U.S. administration will allow a technologically superior navigation system to become functional with little or no U.S. control?
Disclaimer: I am a Canadian.
Applekid has hit the nail on the head in the way most people i know who ARENT american perceive america as a whole. Yes there is hyperbole, and I'm sure a significant fraction would be based entirely on humanities "mock what you fear, hate what you fear" mentality.
However the reason most RATIONAL people outside the US have this mentality is usually more to do with the intent of american foreign policy and the complete disregard for the rights of non-americans in the world. Sure they arent covered under your constitution but isnt the US constitution what americans should regard as their highest laws? Does a foreigner somehow not deserve such things as life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness?
Look into your own history, dont go by your AP US history courses. Read up about Reza Shah and american relations in Iran. Read up on early Iraq and the division of the middle east. Read up on the fact that the turmoil in israel is really more a british creation than american (one HUGE misconception that i'm sick of hearing is about america creating israel, although america WAS the impetus for completing the plan). Read up on the Iranian oil well conflict, and the involvement of the CIA.
Add to this history a climbing majority of fundamentalist rhetoric spewing forth from todays america (the vocal majority, obviously theres sanity underneath but they dont appear to shout as loud) and you have what looks like a theocracy in progress. (And of course the point of theocracy would be to get extra experience for your military units!)
Theres many MANY more reasons, these are just the ones that pop first to my mind. I wont bother claiming anything here as these past posts are flamebait enough, draw your own conclusions as to why us foreigners might be leery of the US if you actually care.
Ice Cream has no bones.
"Firstly, what your grandparents did does not make you or your parents great people."
Never said that, you need a reading comprehension class.
"Indeed, I think I feel quite insulted..."
No one cares.
"Secondly, this "the US saved Europe" stuff is just US propaganda they teach their children. Everyone else knows that the US only intervened in Europe because otherwise the Soviet Union would have taken over Europe as a whole."
Two things, first, we saved THE WORLD. Second, HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU? What would you call stopping "the Soviet Union... tak(ing) over Europe as a whole." retard? That's not saving it? How fucking pathetic are you that you think this proves your point? You argue about the WHY of your freedom while totally ignoring the HOW. And that HOW? American blood, you ungrateful excuse making cunt. Honestly you just said "the US didn't save Europe because everyone knows (your words twat) the THE FUCKING SOVIET UNION WOULD HAVE TAKEN OVER EUROPE, and that's why THE US SAVED IT" Do you realize now how stupid that attempt at a point was?
Lastly, you can call it propaganda all you like, but the facts disagree. Save that shit for your stupid friends, as they're most likely the only ones ignorant and prejudiced enough to beleive it. You're wrong, you're amazingly jealous, and you're stupid. Add to that the arrogance of your self-avowed ignorance, and you get the exact description of someone who thinks what you claim to think.
I should follow my own advice, but I feel somehow compelled to reply and fill in a few details. If you really want to get deep into this tangent though, there's a few thousand posts over at airliners.net you can read through, especially comparing the differences in foundational structure between Boeing and Airbus.
"Compared to Boeing" is pretty vague dig that I think misses its mark. Boeing and Airbus are sitting pretty comparable on market share (measured by plane deliveries per year). I would say they're more evenly matched than Intel and AMD. Airbus and Boeing have their ups and downs, but neither is on the verge of breakdown by any means.
Boeing is in the middle of a very strong upswing right now, a turn around from a couple years ago when Airbus overtook them for number of planes delivered. The 737 and 777 programs thriving, and they've got orders for over 1500 commercial airliners of the models currently in service to be delivered in the next 5 years or so. That's a lot of accounts payable. In addition to those, the 787 appears poised to become the most successful new aircraft launch in history. Boeing has over 500 orders for it already and it hasn't even flown yet. It remains remarkably on schedule and on target for its design performance and cost goals. Boeing is also doing preliminary work for similarly advanced replacements for the 737 and 777 that are expected to be major sellers, too.
Airbus, as mentioned, was sitting pretty a couple years ago due to the success of it's A320 and A330 lines competing with the 737 and 767. However, interest in those is lagging lately as the 787 is a generational improvement over A330 and long term economics are tending to slightly favor the 737 in most applications. The A380 looked bright at first, but its performance has fallen a little short of targets, and the delays have seriously upset airlines that were already shifting inventories to accomodate their orders now, not in 2009. Worse, they had to indefinitely postpone the freighter version to focus resources on solving wiring issues, so now Fed Ex and UPS have cancelled their orders for that plane and shifted them to 747's. The amount of money tied up in A380 development is huge, and there's questions as to whether it will recoup its development costs. Their saving grace is the fledgling A350 program, which intends to apply 787-level technology to a plane closer in size to the 777. Coupled with continued production of the 1900 A320's they have on back-order, Airbus is hardly up the creek without a paddle.
I think Airbus is going to falter for a while, but stay afloat. Boeing is likely to be star of the show for the next decade, but if Airbus delivers on it's plans at that point, it's anybody's game again.
I think your tin foil hat is on way to tight.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
Yes! Clearly GPS is the one remaining tactical and strategic advantage held by the United States. Nevermind the other vast disparities in spending, weapons, training, technology, and population. Not to the mention the disparity in military bases in-country...how many bases do the Europeans have in the U.S. again? And of course these are all even more dramatic when compared on a nation-to-nation basis. After all the EU is only a loose economic federation.
[sarcasm off] All caustic humor aside, this what people mean when they say it's motivated by spite. By any measure, war with the United States would be a badly losing affair for European nations. Not to mention that in the competition for resources the developing nations of China and India are far bigger threats. The best strategy for both the U.S. and for Europe for the foreseeable future is alliance. Thus GPS is a non-issue, strategically.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Those were the 2 main countries involved anyway.
The final result has been a German project about the semantic web, and a French project about improving searching of 'rich content':image, video, etc. It has 3 or 4 'technological partners' that launch research initiatives cofounded by said partners and the French government. If I'm not mistaken, the only one of those enterprises who does search as their main business is exalead (http//www.exalead.fr). A let-down, if you ask me...
...I would not be suprised if they approached the US to jointly control the Galileo and GPS constellations. I think the Europeans are seriously underestimating the O&M costs associated with running a constellation like GPS, particularly when you factor in the ground segment and user segment. The Air Force has spends a great deal of effort and money to operate GPS.
There seem to be many reference in this thread to "GPS" licenses, however, to my knowledge there has never been any fees associated with any license for the C/A code reception device. The codes and frequencies were made public well before any satellites were actually launched (of course the P/Y encrypted codes were not, but since selective availability was turned off in 2000, that channel is only beneficial for ionosphere distortion correction anyhow).
The only thing I can think of is at one time long ago, all GPS equipment was considered military technology and US manufacturers needed an EXPORT license to send US made GPS equipment oversees. By 1991, the US government quickly eliminated this requirement for devices intended for civilian use as it was soon clear that US manufactuers were at a significant DISAVANTAGE to foriegn manufacturers of GPS equiment in that they had to pay for EXPORT licenses. This was well before the system was declared "fully-operational" in 1995 with a full constellation of satellites, so in some ways, it's always been free to use GPS for commercial/non-military use.
I think you got it backwards when you say the EU paid these licenses, since it is the US that paid these licenses and the EU got it for FREE. In fact I was working for one of the companies that wanted to take advantage of this fact and did their product development in the UK and Canada.
The EU/Galileo system, however, in addition to the free signal (to "compete" with the free GPS signal), was going to provide an additional higher quality "pay" service.
So perhaps despite your rantings, GPS succeeds because it's open/free system that spawned a $10-Billion industry in a capitalistic world.
Chemical Castration.
That's why you get your pets neutered. And that's because they can't help themselves.
I've always maintained that if acting a floozy is a crime punishable by rape then rape is a crime punishable by castration.
This is an illustration of what is the main problem in EU: the lack of actual commitment to the union. The member states are paranoid about giving up sovereignty, so they've put so many checks and bureaucracy in place, that it is impossible to actually perform serious work in cooperation. Mind you, the exact same inertia is probably one of the main reasons we have had so few wars since the Second World War.
But the combination of colossal bureaucracy, lack of commitment from the memberstates and the misguided idea that these projects should be commissioned out to private companies are what creates failure after failure in EU, and more often than not, in the member states as well. People often point to some large public IT project that has gone terribly wrong and say 'Look, this is why the state should never undertake that kind of big projects' - but that is actually not true. The problem in those projects is not because it is a state project, but because it is being run by idiots who know too little about the matter in hand. You don't actually have to look very far to find hugely successful public projects. One of my favourites is the great pyramids in Egypt; but you don't have to go that far back in history - just think of the way Great Britain mobilised against Germany during the war. That was a huge, public project, and it was very successful - because everybody realised how important it was to commit fully on all levels, get the best people to work on it and not commission it out to private companies, whose main interest is to channel as much money as possible into their own pockets for as little actual work as they can get away with.
My predictions. I believe there will be formation of an EU military because historically all big economic entities have their own military. Democracy will be further extended into EU institutions because this is the only way to stop encroaching bureaucracy. US and EU will grudgingly work together to offset China and perhaps India. And all along little european nationalists will descend into deeper fantasy world about how their country would rise and rise if only the EU would disappear. The EU will serve as a scapegoat for those who don't want to see how much the world has changed and how insignificamt their little countries have become. Why is this bad? Because weak nations have always been the playthings of stronger nations, a lesson not yet learnt in the UK.
As for who won WW2. US money and UK spirit helped tremendously but Nazi Germany was outfought and broken by the ruthless tyranny of Soviet Russia. The rest was a sideshow. That's not something that we in the west want to admit. As for Japan, credit to the US.
...the home of bureaucracy.
same as conservatively speaking, europe+ussr lost way over 20,000,000 people in ww2 .. that's quite a bit more, mind you... and therefore, in regard to this particular argument, please shut up.
I think it's entirely fair to say that WW2 would not have ended as it did had the US not entered the European front. But I guess that doesn't really matter anymore.. The Hitler/Stalin reference was referring to who would most likely had controlled most of Europe had things turned out differently..the US did not come here because you loved europeans or to help us .. you people came here to stop Hitler before he reached Your border ... incidentally that was good for us too, so thanks for that ... but please stop asking for anything more than a "thanks".
That sounds to me like you're saying the economic power of the US had no impact on WW2. Had no impact on rebuilding post-war Europe. Had no impact on the formation of NATO. Had no impact on stopping the spread of Russia (which you say doesn't count for some reason--I think the former East Germans might disagree with you..). Had no part on supporting Europe militarily when the European militaries were depleted and worn out. Had no part in the keeping of the peace..the US helped rebuilding Europe not because you loved europeans, but to use us as a shield between you and the Ussr... and that job we did Together ... thanks .. but again, stop asking for anything more than a "thanks".
(incidentally, I'm not disputing the fact that the precursor France, Germany, Benelux, Italy union was intended to peace, though I would dispute that it was the biggest factor, or even a big one. Something about millions and millions of people dying tends to kinda suck the desire to fight from people.. it helps when there are soldiers around keeping the peace too !!)if you talk about keeping the peace between Europe and the Ussr, the US had a big role, probably the biggest .. but as that was also Your interest and we did our part of the job, you again cannot ask for more than a "thanks".
if we talk about keeping the peace between the European countries themselves, the US was just one of the factors and far from being the biggest one... for that you will get another (small) "thanks".
so ... you invested your money and men .. and you got what you payed for (peace and security for You) and a lot more (markets, allies, a stable world, etc...).
... please stop digging out 70 years old events, please stop asking for undeserved returns, please stop calling us "ungrateful" ... and pretty please, go mind your own business! ... and if you do that, many thanks again!
and now that we are EVEN
The above message I wrote as the EU citizen that I am now. ... once for each day in 50 years of communism ... and after those 50 years, another "thanks" for helping repair your wrongdoings in the end.
As a citizen of one of the eastern european countries that fought on your side, but you SOLD it to the Ussr for YOUR OWN good and interest, i have another message for the US - Fuck You!
i hope i was clear enough .. no trolling or flaming intended, just the simple truth... or more precisely, my version of "the truth".
"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
That is what I was wondering: How do you tell an EU-based company that they need to buy a license for Galileo because it will be available in times of war? What does the company care? What kind of an economic argument is, "Galileo helps European self-sufficiency and its future military endeavors"? Keyword: future
I wonder if the EU citizens would pretty quickly realize that if too few licenses are sold that it will become a mandatory expense (read tax) in the EU instead.
There's plenty of countries that desire self-sufficiency in lots of different areas. However the economic argument quickly transforms into legislative mandates (laws) for trade barriers, restrictive zoning laws, tax complications, tariffs, BBC TV detector vans, and other distortions.
My guess is that the time between Galileo being functional and the first mandates for its use in the EU will be less than 12 months.
This is extremely insightful.
It's weird how it's OK for muslims to be hateful, racist, antisemitist, and perform horrific acts of violence, but when someone calls them on it, and criticizes them for it, they're immediately labeled a bigot. And of course, all kinds of pathetic excuses come up for their behavior: "they're not used to western culture, so they couldn't help gang-raping those girls." "they're oppressed and the French people aren't accepting of them in their society" (yeah, maybe because they'll be killed or raped!), "it's only a tiny minority of them doing these things" (yeah, that's why there's these huge riots, and daily news reports of gang rapes which never happened before they immigrated in waves).
Maybe the other poster with the chemical castration post had the right idea, except that the Muslim men should be castrated BEFORE they have a chance to rape anyone. If they don't like it, they're free to move back where they came from.