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Cell Phones Disable Keys for High-End Cars
Geoffrey.landis writes "Turns out if you have a top-end Nissan car, your cellphone may erase your car key. '"We discovered that if the I-Key touches a cellphone, outgoing or incoming calls have the potential to alter the electronic code inside the I-Key," Nissan spokesman Kyle Bazemore said. "The car won't start and the I-Key cannot be reprogrammed."'"
I miss the days when you could open the car door with a coat hanger and hot wire the ignition.
The amount of electronics in modern cars is ridiculous, especially when you think about how often electronics break and how easily they're broken.
My mom has a ford escape, there have been two wiring recalls and the wiring has failed on two separate occasions. They had to completely replace the main board!
I can understand that putting electronics in cars seems like a good idea, but it's not.
It's DANGEROUS!
A safety ad here runs the slogan (roughly translated) "Car and Cell don't mix well". It actually promotes abstaining from using your cell while driving, but in this light, it gets a whole new meaning...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
n/t
Kevin Smith on Prince
A friend of mine his dad purchased a Honda S2000 the garage was next to the kitchen. Well when they turned on the microwave it set off the alarm. The cars' keys would always have to be next to the microwave because of the "feature". When he called Honda then told him to buy a different microwave. I fould it hilarious.
~
Nissan should simply state, that the car owners only bought the right to use a specific version of the key, and that they'll have to buy a new car, if they ruin the old key.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
How about a website without a required login?
Nissan warns U.S. cellphones can disable car keys
Maybe leaving it on the microwave isn't such a good idea, either. Are they REALLY that damn sensitive? I'll take a mechanical lock anyday.
First all of my audio producer friends complain about how cel phones will splat on a recording if they go off during an interview, now this.
Somehow the tinfoil beanie types who worry about brain damage are seeming less tinfoil beanie-ish these days...
Where's that Reynolds Wrap?
Three Squirrels
That's ok, I usually drive and use a laptop instead of a cellphone.
Join the TWIT army now!
"FEWER idiots," says the grammar Nazi.
"The car won't start and the I-Key cannot be reprogrammed."
Obviously it CAN be reprogrammed, or else they wouldn't have this problem to begin with.
IF the signature can be altered by a signal why could it not be re-alligned by another? Is the frequency somehow damaging the medium that holds the signature?
If you expose magnetic media to random magnetic forces you lose data... but it does not destroy the medium itself.
OTOH if you pass a Sensormatic EAS tag through an EMF it destroys the medium.
Why would you make a key like that? What's going on here? Who's running this show?
The only thing that surprises me about this is that it's taken this long and it's only high-end cars. Here in the UK, practically every car on the market for the last 10 years has an immobiliser chip of some sort built into the key. It's sold as a security measure, and the fact that it allows the manufacturer to charge you £70 (around $140) for a replacement key - £30 for the key, £40 to reprogram your car to recognise it - has nothing to do with it ;) Are things radically different in the US?
In any case, my understanding was that with most of these, the key leaves the factory with a fixed number, no two keys have the same number and you reprogram the car to recognise the key rather than reprogramming the key to work the car. This sounds to me like a simple case of bad engineering which was never considered when the key was designed.
The upshot is that Nissan will re-design the key so it's not affected by cell-phones, new cars will ship with the redesigned key and owners of existing cars will have to pay a small fortune to replace the keys because it's not a safety recall issue.
seriously, these chipped keys are nothing but problems and it makes the keys stupidly expensive. to get another key for the ford van we have will run you $50, and that's just for the blank! cutting it is another $15. then another $5 to get it programmed if you can't do it yourself (doing it yourself requires 2 already programmed keys)
why can't we just use a bit of properly carved metal to start the vehicle without throwing in a bunch of junk?
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Well it was until they fixed it... I bet there's some engineer out there is as annoyed as I am about people on the phone when they should be driving, he probably made it that way on purpose. And then they had to go and "fix" it.
If it can't be disabled, at least make the car chime loudly and annoyingly if not in park when active phone usage is detected at the driver's position.
if you're going to try to sound like a trolling mac user, please for the love of god remember, it's not PC. That's too easy. It's PEEEEECEEEEE(or your favorite number of "E"s to put in there).
Thank you.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Call me crazy but aren't Macs PCs (Personal Computers)? I hate to hear people cuss themselves out so hard, but I guess that's what happens when you troll....
This is precisely why, at least where I live, the cars you most commonly see are more than 15 years old OR are less than three years old.
The relative simplicity of cars even from the early 1990's, nevermind the 60's and 70's, is what allows them to stay on the road so long. They're easier to work on (no super-expensive diagnostic equipment needed in most cases), the parts are made of stronger metals (steel and iron instead of aluminum and plastic) and the electrical systems are more independent of eachother than in today's cars.
The electrical mess that is today's cars is probably the single largest contributing factor to people's desire to replace a car instead of repairing it. Electrical gremlins are one of the hardest problems to chase down in today's cars because everything is sensor this and computer that. The systems are not redundant in most cases, and the parts and skills necessary to fix the problem once its diagnosed can be cost-prohibitive.
In an age when everyone is rightfully concerned about greenhouse gas emissions and energy efficiency, why are we building cars that are very complicated, have a high energy cost to produce and go straight to the junkyard, on average, in less than 10 years?
The worst problem is that, with the exception of some of the more advanced engine control systems allowing better fuel economy, very few of these electronic 'improvements' actually make driving safer, better or more enjoyable.
I mean, as cool as it looks to wave an electronic key and have the car start, have we gotten to the point where a mechanical lock and tumbler are too hard to turn?
People got along for more than 100 years in cars without GPS systems telling them (in some cases incorrectly) to "turn right in 300 yards".
Even hybrid gas-electric cars are based on 80+-year-old tech. Diesel-electric submarines were built and operated with very little, and early on no computer support systems.
As with a great many things, I think it's time we take a good hard look at what we have, and attempt to simplify instead of further complicate.
Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
This probably only occurs with GSM cell phones. These phones use a TDMA (Time Domain Multiple Access) technique, which causes them to transmit at very high powers (2W) for short (1ms) times. Depending on the efficiency of the transmitters it's common for voltages over 20Vp-p (peak-to-peak) to be generated and transmitted to other devices.
The capacitive coupling of an antenna to a key could then be quite good at the 1-2GHz frequencies (0.5pF @ 2GHz => 150Ohms). That's a low enough impedance to power up a device (through its protection diodes) and cause it to reprogram itself due to noise on the inputs. It could actually even fry the poor little silicon device, if it rectified the voltage got up high enough (>5V) for any length of time.
It's not that hard a problem to prevent (put a filter on your inputs folks!), but I doubt the automotive key entry designers are normally thinking of transmitters at that power and frequency.
Those horses don't work right. If you don't feed them, they get cranky and just go off and graze. They refuse to go near the buggy to tow it anywhere. Some of the really cranky ones, just run away whenever you walk near them. If you surprise horses from behind, they can kick you! They can really hurt you if you get kicked. Horses also leave piles of horse manure wherever they go.
Horses are far too unreliable. Humanity should just stick to walking.
Electronic controls do not give anything that a well engineered engine does not
Huh?
Show me a car engine that can meet current emissions requirements without electronic controls while running on fuel that you can buy at your local gas station. You can't, because it simply isn't possible. Even diesels have computer controls these days.
Electronic controls are an absolute requirement for gasoline engines because of the fine level of control of air/fuel mixture and ignition timing required to burn the fuel efficiently and somewhat cleanly whilst not destroying the engine in the process.
One car I owned recently (a 1995 Chevy) had an 11:1 compression ratio and ran on 87 octane fuel (that's the lowest grade of gasoline available in most of the USA). Without electronic controls such as knock sensing, O2 sensor feedback, mass airflow measurement, and the precise control of both the quantity and timing of fuel injection and the timing of the ignition by a computer, it simply would have been impossible to reach the power level that engine developed (or even to drive at all with an 11:1 CR on 87 octane fuel without knocking holes in the pistons) and at the same time producing HC and CO emissions that were a fraction of the same size (5.7L V8) engine from ten model years earlier.
An easy example of how electronic controls have improved the reliability of modern cars is the elimination of the ignition distributor. Pretty much all modern cars do not have distributors now, because they were such a common point of failure for ignition systems that they made cars break down due to things like worn out cap and rotor, or burned points (going back to before 1975 when electronic ignition became pretty much mandatory). Take a look at the tune-up intervals in a modern car's maintenance schedule. It used to be you'd have to change half the ignition system out every couple of years - now the whole thing is good for at least 100K miles in most cases.
Without modern electronic engine controls, US cities would still be blanketed photochemical smog from vehicle exhaust, and people's cars would be significantly less fuel efficient and far less reliable.
Your statement that electronic controls are not a vast improvement over the previous mechanical and vacuum controls is patently incorrect.
Putting moderation advice in your
I have noticed of late that when someone's cell phone rings in my house it's almost like a mini EMP just went off. If the phone is close to a set of speakers you can often tell before the phone even rings that there's a call incoming -- the speakers start making all sorts of noise.
I've looked into this and I'm not the only person who has speakers/electronics that respond to cell phones this way. Are they really pumping that much juice in the signal these days or is my setup wired so that EM signals somehow translate into sound on the speakers? And how do I fix that?
TLF
I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
A base model Altima is high end?
What exactly is a mid range car?
I thought that was a well known danger. My father recently got a car with one of those, and it came with a warning to keep the key away from electronics like TVs. Cell phones might be more problematic since people often keep them with their keys, but if they can do it too that probably means its a rare problem (otherwise we would have heard of a lot more people getting into this kind of trouble).
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
I always thought electronics had the potential to be MORE reliable than mechanical. But, no, I'm happy to take up space with my Selectric in the office and have a tiny Royal portable manual typewriter at home.
These are not your regular key with an immobilizer chip. These are "proximity" keys. You just leave them in your pocket, purse or whatever. When you turn the ignition key, the car searches around "wirelessly" for the key. Same thing for opening the doors; you push a little black button on the door handle, and if you are in possession of the key, it unlocks. The car is surprisingly careful about where you have to be in order to accomplish these things. For example, it won't let you lock your keys in the car. I think it also detects the difference between a key in the driver's pocket vs. a key in the passenger's pocket and sets the driver's seat etc. appropriately.
Don't bring logic into this!
PeeCee users are listening.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Just bought a 2007 Infiniti G35S and it's a beautiful car.
8 8
Infiniti has been dealing with the problem quite well.
This is really not as big of an issue as the press is making it out to be -- it's a very isolated issue. I keep my phone next to my Blackberry all day and haven't had any problems. On the G35 forums, maybe 3-4 people have run into the issue. All owners recieved a letter about 2 weeks ago informing us of the issue and that they would have a replacement key for us within a few months.
Read more about it here: http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1537
Source? My auto mechanics textbook from college has this blurb that tries to reassure you about electronics in cars by saying "80% of problems don't stem from electronic failures."
The electronics have given us more features and higher fuel efficiency. But still, there are times when it would be nice to make it all manual. Cars that you can't shift into neutral unless the battery is charged can be a pain to get off the road after an accident. If a wheel sensor goes bad, you ought to be able to turn them off and drive the car to a service station, instead of put-putting along at five MPH on the side of the parkway.
The Model T had two different clutches, one for going forward and the other for reverse. When the forward clutch wore down and started slipping under heavy loads, one turned the car around to go up a steep hill. Or, if the brakes didn't work, you could use the reverse pedal to stop the car.
Perhaps one could say that Model Ts were so widely used because they were more reliable than horses. It's more probable that a horse would become sick and die than a Model T engine would need replacement.
They're in such a panic to product-differentiate themselves (helped by recent Mac-vs-PC ads on TV) that they can't understand that the product(s) with the 20 t0 1 installed base are referred to with the generic term. Only the (permanently) niche products have to have a "special" name so you know you're talking about the rear-runner.
Now, Nissan engineers need to devise a way for Starbucks' coffee to be automatically spilled on the drivers' baby blue ties.
Sorry, but Macintosh's were NEVER PCs. They are however a Personal Computer, and always have been. You see, PC is shortened version of IBM PC Compatible. While yes, PC in IBM PC stood for Personal Computer, the term PC never applied to Macintosh (or Amigas, Sun, DEC Alpha or other "personal" computers). So while you think you are being either funny or cleaver, you are in fact showing your ignorance (or arrogance).
Next time, keep your troll to yourself.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Look! Shiny!
Quack, quack.
I've got a new 2007 Altima. The key dongle thingy (you call it what you want, I'll call it what I want) comes apart and there's an actual normal key in there that will allow you to open the driver door and glove box. You need the electronic part of the key to start the car because it has push-button ignition. Nice to know that it's a high-end car!
People who ride BART in San Fran experience this with BART tickets and cell phones. Bleh!
Commas, separate, you!,
You are reading a sig. Cancel or allow?
Sorry, but Macintosh's were NEVER PCs. They are however a Personal Computer, and always have been. You see, PC is shortened version of IBM PC Compatible. While yes, PC in IBM PC stood for Personal Computer, the term PC never applied to Macintosh (or Amigas, Sun, DEC Alpha or other "personal" computers). So while you think you are being either funny or cleaver, you are in fact showing your ignorance (or arrogance).
Next time, keep your troll to yourself.
HELP!! This thread has been hijacked and transported to Usenet circa 1990!!!
... was car theft such a huge problem as it is today? Model T's, remember, basically had NO complete enclosure and no security. Also remember that cars weren't so universal back then; not everyone had one. Did people steal them with the same frequency that cars are stolen today? Since they were open, presumably their owners were smart enough to take with them anything of remote value.
Is it possible that we need all this security for cars because the way we use them has changed? If we hadn't decided to give them glass enclosures and trunks and install in them "expensive" stereo sound systems, would we even have a significant theft problem? If we simply remade them back into basic transportation, rather than apartments on wheels, would we see a precipitous drop in the need for things like Nissan's I-Keys?
I did a search for wireless interference today, work related, and came up with this as a new thing - now -it's on /.
Don't I get any peace ?!?!?!
I saw something similar after parking outside a (different) internet cafe and couldn't lock my toyota ..... worked great when I moved 1/2 a block down the street
Don't get too excited, its not a high-end car. The story wouldn't be as eye catching if it said, cell phones erase keys of mid-range cars. Boring. High-end, now thats exciting, but its false news reporting...
for 3 years now, always riding in the same pocket as my cell phone. Sounds like a Nissan-specific problem. (This is the same basic idea Nissan uses; but Toyota uses it as an option in various models, including most of the Lexus models, the Avalon, Corolla, and Prius.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
duh
Shouldn't men be rather more concerned about having radio-frequency-emitting devices in their pants pockets, nestled right up against the ol' testes?
Seriously, it seems about as foolish as standing in front of the microwave transmitter to stay warm during duty.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Are you using the original engine or Mr. Fusion?
(The plutonium engine occurred to me also, but if plutonium passes the emissions test, the inspectors are slacking off.)
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
I'll take a mechanical lock anyday.
I see you have never had your car stolen.
One of the selling points on my Prius is the fact the computer won't let the car be driven without the proper chip in the key. It has no 12 volt starter. It has electronic transmission. There is no mechanical way to hotwire it and drive it off. It won't start, or enguage the transmission.
Breaking in to steal the stereo is one thing. Breaking in for a joyride is next to impossible. Chop shop operators have to tow, not drive the targets.
Look it up on the internet.
Search for car thefts by model. Unless the keys are hanging in the ignition, Prius cars are not taken for joy rides like Hondas.
The truth shall set you free!
Try to image car insurance companies using this to their advantage.
"The carmakers are calling these passive antitheft systems, but they're not," says Rob Painter, a Milwaukee-based forensic locksmith who has testified in dozens of auto insurance court cases, for both sides. "They are just theft deterrents. Tell me a car can't be stolen and I'll show you how to do it."My 2000 Nissan Maxima's second key and valet key need to be reprogrammed now as well. Only they weren't used for a year or two, setting in a drawer full of paperwork. How did that happen?
I picked up a 2006 Infiniti G35 (available without the Intelligent Key) instead of the '07 (which is not). I read the part of the manual about this key, and it looked so needlessly complex. I have enough problems without worrying about whether or not my key is going to malfunction.
On a similar note, I was getting ready to store my jumper cables in the trunk (accessible only through one of three electric pushbuttons) when I realized that if the battery dies, I won't even be able to get into my trunk! What kind of crap is that?
Having said that, I do wish sensible, widely-available mass transmit were in place. No matter what the benefits of a modern car, it cannot compare at all to the benefits of a quality (emphasis on quality) train or bus service. What's quality? Quality is being able to meet 90% of your travel needs at least 90% of the time. You may well want/need a car for the rest, but the point is that "the rest" then becomes a much smaller quantity. The result should be improved safety, reduced pollution, reduced costs, and reduced stress.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I was staying in TVQ (Transient Visitors Quarters) on King's Bay naval base, and they gave the same warning about the room keys. Apparently this is not an entirely isolated issue...
I have a 1999 Ford Explorer and a 2002 Mercury Cougar that both have chipped keys, and i have had them on top of the microwave, and touching my cellphone in my pocket for years, never had a problem with either one. IANAEY (I am not an engineer, yet.), but I think someone at Nissan tried to reinvent the wheel. Why not just do it the way Ford has done it for years? Or is Nissan too proud to have way overpriced cars that people don't want to drive anymore thanks to the problems with keys malfunctioning?
Yep. Computer controlled (albeit fairly primitive) ignition, check. Computer controlled fuel injection (again fairly primitive), check.
If you're feeling daring, pop off the distributor cap (a huge pain on that engine when it isn't shoved sideways into a DeLorean), pull off the rotor and the dust cap. Note the lack of points. Yep, that's called an electronic ignition. If you're feeling even more daring, pop off the intake manifold (hahaha...), and look at the air flow meter. Right around there you should see a frequency valve. Yep. That's a computer controlled solenoid designed to regulate the fuel mixture in response to the oxygen sensor. Or, you know, look at the smog plate and it should mention you've got an "O2S" (oxygen sensor in EPA vernacular). If your cams aren't completely shot, you might even be able to hear the frequency valve buzzing away with the engine idling.
The revolution will be mocked
cell phone manufacturers are releasing information that describes a situation, in which a car key 'touching' my cell phone pisses me off, everytime.
sometimes, nothing.
Seriously. Where we've got these obnoxious faux trucks, they've got proper utes and far more efficient full-sized sedans. Hell, their full sized sedans even have reasonably modern suspensions, something our full sized sedans (Crown Vic, Caprice) lacked.
The revolution will be mocked
I'd like to see high-end, or any-end cars that won't start unless their driver's cellphone Bluetooths the car with positive breathalyzer results. Maybe after even one conviction for DWI/DUI.
Even if they get someone else to pass the test, that person might take the wheel instead of the drunk, especially motivated by knowing they put the drunk behind the wheel.
--
make install -not war
More modern smog gear has given us: more powerful engines, easier monitoring, and more efficient engines. However, at this point we're mostly dealing with diminishing returns.
Volvo (at least I think it was them) came out a few years ago and pointed out that most of the emissions that we're reducing with the advanced controls are the cold start emissions. Once your engine is up to operating temp, it's easily as clean as a 5-10 year old car would be (assuming it's in good shape). This is why you see things like pre-cats, air pumps, and heated oxygen sensors.
Also worth noting is that efficiency and cleanliness are two different things. Again, the modern engine management may allow for increased mileage, but that doesn't mean that the emissions per unit of fuel burned are that much cleaner. Indeed, I'd say a new car is going to be an overall bad things in terms of use of resources (or carbon footprint, or whatever you want to call it). New cars take a whole lot of water and energy to build. Let's not forget all the lovely solvents (such as paint) required. Let's not forget, that if you're replacing your car with a new one, we've still got to deal with the disposal of the old car. The world would probably be better off, environmentally speaking, if we'd just cut back on new car production and kept our slightly older cars for a longer period of time. Of course the economy would suffer quite a bit (certainly we've seen how dependent the US is on auto manufacturing).
Oh, and the distributor as an example of unreliable technology? Puhleeze. Even the mechanical points based distributors were pretty reliable (unless you're driving a something with a shoddy design in the first place). The distributorless systems aren't necessarily anything to write home about, and in some instances they're pretty bad. One example would be Nissan, and their coil on plug design. A coil is essentially a simple step up transformer, and by nature somewhat sensitive to heat and vibration. On a traditional car there's one ignition coil, and it's mounted out of the way. With a coil on plug design, the are many coils (one per cylinder), and they're mounted directly on the engine and thus subjected to more heat and vibration. Nissan, like many other companies, apparently didn't sink enough money in trying to overcome the inherent additional stresses. The end result has been that the coil packs are notorious for failure on some of their cars (previous generation Maximas come to mind). Yeah, technology is awesome. Wanna get started on how awesome drive by wire is? Not.
Oh, and 100k service intervals are nothing to be proud of. Instead of, for instance, changing spark plugs every few years as in a typical design, you'll change them every 10 years. So, what? That's an additional 7 yrs/70,000mi for the spark plugs to become corroded in place. And, of course, we all know how forgiving aluminum is (assuming we're talking about a modern alloy engine) to things being threaded improperly.
The revolution will be mocked
Some new cars have those keys that just have to be near the car to allow you to push a button to start. I knew a guy that hung his keys on a nail in the garage that happened to be close enough to allow him to start the car. You can guess what happened one day when he left to go home and found that he had forgotten his keys.
No matter where you go, there you are.
I experienced a similar problem in August 1999, and posted this information publicly to the alt.autos.nissan newsgroup, by postal mail to there corporate address, and to my dealership. Eventually they addressed my 'dead key' caused by an i-pass toll collection transponder, by offering to pay for my tow truck fees and new key. But they would not admit fault. (See full story in link below.)
r owse_thread/thread/d6a7ab0723d3ebde/3997d9c24d6e62 4d?lnk=st&q=nissan+maxima+ipass&rnum=3&hl=en#3997d 9c24d6e624d
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/b
Since I notified them about this class of problem and they chose to ignore it, I feel no sympathy for them now that they have been finally burnt bad by their poor engineering.
It goes to show that ignoring customer complaints and engineering problems leads to bad design, bad press, and bad business.
I have subsequently switched to driving a Honda, a car designed by a Japanese run company that still values solid engineering.
Nick (Electrical Engineer, Chicago IL)
P.S. My experience is that most American Engineers and companies are very bad at being thorough in their up-front design of complex systems and in their investigation of failures. Our schooling does not emphasize this as a core value. The almighty quick buck seems to rule.
I don't known why people believe these things are secure, digital, electronic.
We who have the knowledge and work it this field should repeatly tell the people these things were not secure. A lot less secure than the old tech.
Do it guys, save the world.
The amount of electronics in modern cars is ridiculous, especially when you think about how often electronics break and how easily they're broken. My mom has a ford escape, there have been two wiring recalls and the wiring has failed on two separate occasions.
Fords have had wiring problems since the late 70's. There was a massive recall (which took lots of pounding by the Feds for Ford to actually do something about) that involved ignition switches causing dashboard fires, while the car sat in people's driveways. Seriously: the switches would fail suddenly and the cars would burn to the ground, often setting people's homes on fire. Ford didn't give a shit- they kept producing the same design year after year, knowing it was defective.
I think the Ford focus set a world record for the most number of recalls (sample google result: http://consumeraffairs.com/news02/ford_focus.html)
Please help metamoderate.
(can't reflash bios once bios is hosed)
Well, not necesarily true. I hosed the BIOS on one of my motherboards, and I had a second one in my other computer (just a weaker processor) I popped the bad one out, put the good one in, turned the PC on, got a good flash, popped the BIOS out with the computer on, popped the bad BIOS in, flashed it, rebooted, and it worked.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Was in the older Nissan Sentras. Below the fusebox near the driver door there was a chip you could pull, and completely disable the car. It was hardened against EMP as well (though I doubt the rest of the car electronics were,) and I doubt a stray bit of microwave radiation would damage this chip. Put it in a key, screw that - someone steals your key and you're hosed anyways. Most common thieves wouldn't know about a separate security chip you could pull. The second you they're in the car or have your keys, you run like hell and get the headstart, and get a new key later after calling a tow truck. Maybe $55 bucks instead of this nonsensical hundred plus for a freaking KEY.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
People put up with it because they have little or no choice.
Products compete on price and glitz, not reliability or security.
Reliability and security were supposed to be _givens_ -- something you didn't pay attention to because they were minimum standards. Unfortunately, because most people were focusing on "glitz", "over here", software manufacturers were quickly taking money and resources from "QA" and security and putting them where they could get the best return on their money -- in "glitz".
Despite the tons of bugs in almost all software, how often do you see a company do a "bug-fix-only" release? Most people wouldn't pay for such a release -- or wouldn't pay "much". That's the problem. People don't want to pay for a bug-fix-only release, because they assume the product wouldn't be released if it was "faulty".
Unfortunately, I tend to agree. It would be painful to go back now and rewrite all existing software to be "bug free" or "fault free". Many might argue that it would bankrupt the industry -- maybe it would. But consumers have gotten used to a certain level of merchandise quality in the market.
If a product is "faulty", it gets recalled, or replaced or repaired -- at the manufacturer's expense. At least this is true for "most" consumer products. However, for whatever reason, software companies have convinced everyone that following the same standard as virtually every other product on the market place would just be "too hard". "Cost too much".
So often people complain about "cars", citing the computer industry where computers are 1000's of times faster and cheaper than 30-40 years ago and if cars had made such progress, we'd have cars getting a 1000 mpg with 0-60 acceleration or deceleration in 2-3 seconds...etc. But people usually don't think about the reverse -- if cars develop faults, people's lives may be endangered. The manufacturer, knowing they can be held liable, issues a safety recall. With software -- software manufacturers sell products, not only without warranty, but with explicit disclaimers that the software being bought is good for _no_ purpose.
Imagine buying any consumer product that not only claims it is good for "no purpose", but where the manufacturer claims it isn't a sale, but you are "leasing" the product from them and your rights concerning the product are limited --- with all the baggage that software "licenses", supposedly, limit you to. The idea of applying software "restrictions" to every and any other purchase seems laughable. Imagine your house being good for no purpose (including as shelter)...etc. Maybe airlines should start putting shrink-wrap licenses on the seat-backs. If you don't accept the seat-back license, you are free to get up and get off the plane. Otherwise, you consent to complete abrogation of your rights. Maybe it's just a matter of time...
i've never had this problem with my 84 rabbit...
why the hell do you need a chip in the key anyhow? why not a normal key and an optional proximity thing to hang on your keychain.
IBM wanted to make that clear so their first machine (personal) was the IBM-PC. Later when there were clones, we just started calling them PCs.
make a joke about rearranging the dilithium cristals inside the car, and protecting the key with a ever changing quantum encrypted force-field
funny pics
If the key can't be reprogrammed, what is the cellphone altering ?
This sounds a little like a sham to get people to pay hundreds of dollars for a "special key".
A friend of mine dropped her keys off the side of a boat & the dealership tried to slap her for $500 for a new set.
A few calls later, the price dropped drasticly.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
> So while you think you are being either funny or cleaver, you are in fact showing your ignorance
What is a "PowerPC" then?
My other car is first.
When the remote control cupholder breaks because of the talking onboard GPS that's when fat lazy stupid Americans will worry. Me? I'm waiting for the first death caused by being locked in your own car or better yet, being arrested and possibly tasered by the cops while attempting to break out of your own locked car.
Ever carry an air compressor? try and get that out over the seats....
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
That could also be because taking a Prius for a joyride is a bit of an oxymoron.
"Hey look, we're almost up to 40!!"
Thaaaaaannnks!
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
"Hello June... how's the beaver?"
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
A chip.
Macs using that chip were called PowerMac.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Wrap the cell phone in tin foil.
So you really need all that power to run at that snail-speed limits you have at US?
Go look how an European TDI can use it's asmathic flea power to run over 200Km/h (120 miles/h?) with half the fuel. Even my old 15 years old clunky gasoline car drinks less than actual US cars. You can swear 120Km/h is the slowest I drive on the road with it.
Torque? for what? Have you really achieved any limit with an smaller engine?
It's roughly the same as using a 5GHz PC to office-use. Are you a hard-gamer kid? Maybe you really need it then, kid.
Yup! Have to agree 110%. I have one, rust and all. It is probably worth all of $250, if we include the pens under the driver's seat. Still runs well though.
It is the most theft-proof car I have ever had. Don't even need to lock the doors, there's just no way anybody will steal this old hunk of junk!
bought a 1988 Honda CRX instead of a new car last year. When something goes wrong I'm usually able to fix it myself with nothing more than a few tools and a CRX repair manual I found on the internet. The car is almost 20 years old with 230,000 km on the engine and still runs strong, and with the money I saved I could easily replace the entire engine block if the need arises in the future. If any sensor or electrical component fails the ECU spits out an error code that tells you exactly where the problem lies, no need for fancy diagnostic equipment. 6 months ago my CRX was blowing a fuse repeatedly. The ECU registered a fuel system error code, and after checking the repair manual I found there's only 1 fuel system component on that particular fuse. A few hours later I'd replaced the fuel pump and everything was working fine again. Meanwhile I've had to take a look at my parents new Ford sedan nearly every month, mostly because of some vague electrical problem (certain fuses keep blowing, but for the life of me I couldn't find the cause). Turns out the 02 sensor was grounding a wire improperly, causing a fuse to blow that was (seemingly) completely unrelated to the sensors. Without the specialised diagnostic machine the mechanic used I never would have found the problem. Progress isn't necessarily in the forward direction...
Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
It also allows you to open doors the same way, even without the little black button. Walk up to a front door with a key in your pocket, and you can open the door. But it's also smart. You being in proximity of the tail door doesn't mean an opportunist can open a side door by timing.
Also a nice feature is the immobilizer - it's not immediate. Get carjacked and yanked out of your vehicle, immediate immobilization is a risk - thief will realize, might attack you for key while you're right there. It lets the car drive about 1000 ft and then kills it, so you should be safer.
That could also be because taking a Prius for a joyride is a bit of an oxymoron.
g .htmly _win/specs_price.html
"Hey look, we're almost up to 40!!"
Truly spoken by someone who has never driven one. An electric motor has full torque at a stall unlike a gas engine. My car has lots more pep than the Mustang I traded in. The Mustang was a gutless 4 banger with almost as much get up and go as my old VW beetle. The Prius on the other hand will pass people going uphill at freeway speeds. Stock a new Prius will do well over 100 MPH unlike most economy cars.
Here are some drag strip stats for these gutless econo cars.
http://www.dragtimes.com/Toyota--Prius-Drag-Racin
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_04_co
The truth shall set you free!
My first Mac was a "Performa 6112CD" emblazoned with PowerPC on the front.
_ 60.jpg for a picture.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Power_Mac_6100
My other car is first.
You'd be surprised. Kids like to steal cars like that because they are easy to hotwire (none of this chip business), or they can simply force the ignition if the parts have worn out due to thousands of starts. They then go joyriding for a while, then abandon the car once they get bored with it.
Who are you kidding? My old heap of recycleable materials will hardly start with the key! If it was that easy to hotwire I would be doing it myself.
Let me refine that calculation:
$100 to replace key, at minimum
vs.
((cost of DUI)*((odds of getting caught)*((odds of killing someone before getting caught)*(cost of vehicular homicide)))) + ((odds of getting self killed while drunk)*(cost of funeral)*(final judgement))
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
Hate to type this, but if we're not careful, our gasoline prices will catch up with Europe's soon.
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
Your mac was a Performa 6112CD. The name never contained PowerPC. The PowerPC was like "Intel Inside" logo on all those Dells.
We don't call beige boxes "Intels" do we? The closest we get is WinTel.
I'm not saying, I'm just saying.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
If it's an older Nissan Sentra, hotwiring is easy.
1. Insert the security chip.
2. Break column and expose wires.
3. Cross green and yellow.
4. Ride!
We had to do that when my pal broke his key off in the ignition.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.