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Spammer Robert Soloway Arrested

Mike writes "Yahoo is reporting that US prosecutors captured Robert Soloway, a prolific Internet marketer responsible so much junk e-mail they called him "Spam King." Soloway was arrested in Seattle, Washington, a week after being indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of identity theft, money laundering, and mail, wire, and e-mail fraud. Soloway is accused of using botnets to disguise where e-mail originated and of forging return addresses of real people or businesses for his mass mailings. If convicted as charged, Soloway will face a maximum sentence of more than 65 years in prison and a fine of 250,000 dollars."

383 comments

  1. give hima real punishment... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 4, Funny

    ..... make him delete all the spam emails he sent out, individually.

    1. Re:give hima real punishment... by aussie_a · · Score: 4, Funny

      While that might satisfy our need for revenge as individuals, as a society aren't we suppose to seek the rehabilitation of criminals such as Robert Soloway? If so, I doubt very much punishing him in such a manner would rehabilitate him. It would simply urge him not to get caught next time, although it is of course quite impossible for him to do it hence the silly moderation. Although I imagine many people are thinking "Yeah! We should do that! Really make him suffer!" I think we need more behaviour modification specialists (including psychiatrists) over the simple cry for vengence when we make laws against spamming. Otherwise we simply get laws that say a spammer should be put in jail for 65 years rather then laws which actually seek to rehabilitate the spammer.

    2. Re:give hima real punishment... by giorgiofr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Rehabilitate him, you say. Is he ill? Is he handicapped? Is he being manipulated? No. He made his choices and got caught. Now it's *retribution time*. Yeah, revenge. Criminals commit crimes deliberately, I don't see why we should assume that they are somehow to be "saved", saved by what I ask? Their own decisions? I lead a somewhat free life just like they do, they have always had a choice, they chose to commit crimes, and now they get caught and suddenly it's "think of the criminals" time? No way. Rehabilitation works for people who *care* about social acceptance. This kind of people obviously do not care.
      However I believe that spamming should not be a crime. In the grand scheme of things... robbing someone is much worse.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    3. Re:give hima real punishment... by aussie_a · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      This kind of people obviously do not care. Who? Criminals or spammers? Because your post appears to make no distinction.
    4. Re:give hima real punishment... by smilindog2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are more issues here than rehabilitating the spammer. The world needs to know that the US is serious about stopping spam, and a serious sentence will be required as a deterrent. 65 years seems excessive, but this guy needs to do some real time, if not for himself, but to stop others who would follow in his path.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    5. Re:give hima real punishment... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I think we need more behaviour modification specialists (including psychiatrists) over the simple cry for vengence when we make laws against spamming.

      I know a guy who runs an SMS "advertising" company. There is absolutely nothing broken about this person except that he has a strong instinct about making money. Its a bit like the difference between Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs. One wants to be nice and hack technology. The other wants to get rich.

      All you need to be a spammer is a belief that if a buck can be made out of something then it should be made.

    6. Re:give hima real punishment... by giorgiofr · · Score: 2

      Criminals, as opposed to e.g. children or bullies

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    7. Re:give hima real punishment... by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However I believe that spamming should not be a crime. In the grand scheme of things... robbing someone is much worse. You had my mod points coming your way, right up until that last sentence. His actions have no doubt cost countless people around the world significant amounts of time, money and resources (bandwidth bills, cost of wages paid to clean up infected machines, additional infrastructure to cope with increased mail volume, etc. etc.). The only real difference is that he is "robbing" many people instead of one... OK he's not committing physical assault, but he is effectively trespassing electronically.

      Bad analogy time (hey, this is Slashdot, after all...) - he's not breaking into your house and stealing all the electrical goods to sell at the local pawn shop. Instead, he's breaking into every single house in the whole neighbourhood while the owners are away at work, and using all the bedrooms to run his own private brothel, and then leaving the owners to clean up the mess.

      Maybe his actions sit somewhere between robbery and fraud, but either way they are still most definitely criminal IMHO. Simply spamming (in the literal meaning of the word - "sending unsolicited email") should be a misdemeanor depending entirely on the volume of spam sent, and whether any of the email headers are fraudulent. Bot-farming, however, should be a felony.
    8. Re:give hima real punishment... by maxume · · Score: 1

      There is the question, when you are dealing with hundreds of thousands of people, of what is the cheaper way for society to end up with less crime.

      You obviously don't think so, but a lot of the people who end up in prison simply lack the decision making framework to decide whether what they are doing is right or wrong; their socialization is such that they think that their behavior is perfectly socially acceptable. Taking something from someone who is smaller than you? Can they do anything about it? Then it's fine. And so forth.

      So notionally, attempting to establish that decision making framework and allowing re entrance to society could be a lot cheaper than feeding and housing someone for years and years. The trick is making it work, and convincing the yahoos that they probably don't want everybody else's morality smacked down on them(which would seem to be consistent with wanting your morality smacked down on everybody else).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:give hima real punishment... by aussie_a · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Well I'm certainly glad the Australian criminal system disagrees with you.

    10. Re:give hima real punishment... by tacocat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Holy Crap you're a bleeding heart pussy!!!

      Rehabilitation works only if there's remorse for a crime. The only thing he is aware of is the $$$ he makes. If he had to delete 20 billion spam then he might start getting a clue of just how much of a pain in the ass he is for doing his business the way he has. I would go further in that he should also be held accountable for the format/install of all those owned machines out there. And on top of that he's probably also responsible for a lot of people buying new computers under the false impression that they need to get a new one because the old one is slow. It's only slow because of his doings.

      I have no interest in rehabilitation unless someone actually shows a sense of regret and remorse for their crimes. And even then there's a question of being real or just playing the therapists.

      I do hope that if he's convicted that they have the sense to toss everything they have at him.

    11. Re:give hima real punishment... by cpghost · · Score: 1

      Or, better yet,

      s/SpamAssassin/Robert Soloway/
      at a big mail hub. Let him filter out that stuff manually for a couple of years; after all, he's quite familiar with it...
      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    12. Re:give hima real punishment... by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      I don't know, even though I admin a mail server and I loathe spam like you can't begin to imagine, I still think spamming can't be worse than physical violence or, anyway, physical acts such as stealing. Besides, you seem to lump together the spamming activity and the infrastructure building activity (infecting boxes, setting up botnets, etc) - the latter is of course much more damaging but still it does not enter the physical realm. I'm still a bit conflicted about this.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    13. Re:give hima real punishment... by rjshields · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Spamming is effectively robbing people of little bits of time and other resources, so it's kind of like stealing but spread over millions of people instead of a single victim.

      --
      In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.
    14. Re:give hima real punishment... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Rehabilitation is a luxury. I just want the damned thug off my wires.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    15. Re:give hima real punishment... by tacocat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If I had mod points today I would give them to you...

      spam will never go away, it's a multi billion dollar industry and people actually buy this stuff. So there's a very strong business case to keep it around. Capitalism...

      The process of sending unsolicited email may or may not be something you can criminalize if the sender is accurately representing themselves in the email. However, the process of not removing someone from a mailing list upon their request can be considered harassment. I don't know if harassment is a misdemeanor or a felony. Probably depends on the degree. I'll assume for now it is not a felony.

      But doing this under snake oil pretenses is a criminal intent. You hide your true identify by forge mail headers and trespassing onto other peoples computers.

      The forgery should be treated as just exactly that -- forgery. I think this is considered a felony.

      The invasion of someone elses computer should be treated as breaking and entering or theft. The economic value of the theft should be calculated on the cost of the machine being stolen. This would push most actions out of small claims/misdemeanors into felony court. So this too is a felony.

      So there you have it, based on previously existing law. Spam is legal if accurately represented. Continuing to send Spam is a misdemeanor. Sending spam as a misrepresentation of yourself or through resources you do not have permission to use, is a felony. Is that so hard to work with?

    16. Re:give hima real punishment... by tacocat · · Score: 1

      Is this someone who you can rehabilitate? You make it sound as if the strong instinct about making money is a criminal or amoral behaviour that needs rehabilitation. I guess I don't understand your point.

      I think it's OK to have an instinct about something. But it's not OK to follow that instinct regardless of the social norms or laws that exist in the society you participate in. Otherwise, most criminal behaviour would become OK since it's just following instincts.

    17. Re:give hima real punishment... by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Informative

      Who? Criminals or spammers? Because your post appears to make no distinction.

      Care to explain the difference?

      When someone robs the purse of one person, he's a criminal. He made the life of one single person miserable, once.
      When someone constantly makes the life of millions of people miserable, he should be at the very least as much a criminal.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:give hima real punishment... by ACMENEWSLLC · · Score: 1

      >>However I believe that spamming should not be a crime. In the grand scheme of things... robbing someone is much worse.

      I pay thousands of dollars a year to block his (and others) spam. How is that not theft?

    19. Re:give hima real punishment... by Kitsuneymg · · Score: 1

      However I believe that spamming should not be a crime.

      ...charges of identity theft, money laundering, and mail, wire [fraud], and e-mail fraud... At least RTFS. He is being charged with a multitude of crimes, none of which are spamming. Spam was his vehicle for committing fraud, not a crime in and of itself.
    20. Re:give hima real punishment... by giorgiofr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Spam obviously *annoys* you, so you spend on appropriate countermeasures. Subtraction of, say, a notebook damages you. A knife in your body tends to kill you. The first "damage" is self-inflicted, the other ones are not. So, spam is not theft. By that logic, noisy cars in the road are stealing my time and money, because I choose to install thicker windows.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    21. Re:give hima real punishment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...how about this:
                lets say it takes 5 seconds to manually identify
                and delete a peice of spam.
                          Sentence him according to
                        (5 seconds)*(Total Number of SPAM sent)+ Time for Fraud,
                          Theft, etc.

    22. Re:give hima real punishment... by Aliriza · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But there are more evil crimes than this one and we are shouting and throwing rocks to only these ones.Imo the autorities have the strenght to stop spam if they want to but how will they send their so called "newsletters". Spamming is bad but 65 years seams way to high.

    23. Re:give hima real punishment... by GreyPoopon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When someone constantly makes the life of millions of people miserable, he should be at the very least as much a criminal.

      And more importantly, we should ask ourselves: What is the purpose of spam? It's to separate people from their money (either by selling something, by identity theft, or by fraud). Identity theft is actually worse than a one-time robbery. Fraud would be the same as robbing someone. The only case that couldn't be consider the same as or worse than robbery is the marketing of a legitimate item. Unfortunately, if you look at the techniques used by spammers to bypass spam filters and those market their wares on people who are clearly not interested, you have to assume that the product they are marketing is not worth a dime. In my book, tricking someone into buying something that isn't worth the money is the same as robbery. And for the spammer, it's not just one robbery. It's robbing everybody who "bites" the hook.


      Consider the fact that the spammer *knows* that it's a crime (otherwise there would be little attempt to hide the origin of email). The spammer *knows* that almost nobody on his list wants to receive the email (otherwise there would be no need to use a botnet to bypass spam filters). The spammer *knows* (or ought to know) that it's illegal to compromise somebody's computer and use it against their will. So you have here a person who knows that it's illegal and socially unacceptable to do what they are doing, and that there will be severe punishment if they get caught. Yet despite the fact that they could count their winnings and move on, they continue to follow the path of a criminal.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    24. Re:give hima real punishment... by Tom · · Score: 1

      *raise hands*

      For it. Heck, if he manages to do it in less than 65 years, let him go early.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    25. Re:give hima real punishment... by Eagleartoo · · Score: 0

      You obviously don't think so, but a lot of the people who end up in prison simply lack the decision making framework to decide whether what they are doing is right or wrong; their socialization is such that they think that their behavior is perfectly socially acceptable. Taking something from someone who is smaller than you? Can they do anything about it? Then it's fine. And so forth.
      This is such garbage - even if they are unable to distinguish that what they did was wrong, what does that matter when it comes to everyone else having to obey the law. "I killed your whole family last night but I didn't know it was wrong", granted we're not talking about murder here but we are talking about fraud. You do the crime, you do the time.

      So notionally, attempting to establish that decision making framework and allowing re entrance to society could be a lot cheaper than feeding and housing someone for years and years. The trick is making it work, and convincing the yahoos that they probably don't want everybody else's morality smacked down on them(which would seem to be consistent with wanting your morality smacked down on everybody else)
      SO MUCH TRIPE!!! What is the rule of law if not the collective morality smacked down on those that break the law. I mean we all have to live by it, you can't make special allowances for one person - unless you think it's okay to defraud people, if so let's change the law to make fraud legal! I can defraud better than anyone!
      --
      -You have been modded appropriately-
    26. Re:give hima real punishment... by cottagetrees · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Spammers little bits of my time every day. I work in a business where a missed email means a missed client, so I can't afford to have a prospect's email deleted by the spam filter. I use spam filters, but they're far from perfect. Lock him up and then let my spam filter lose the key.

    27. Re:give hima real punishment... by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Care to explain the difference? All spammers are criminals, not all criminals are spammers. If he was talking about spammers then what he said doesn't necessarily apply to murderers. If, however, he was talking about criminals, then it clearly applies to both spammers and murderers. I was simply requesting clarification which I got :)
    28. Re:give hima real punishment... by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 0, Troll

      65 years isn't enough. Lock him up for life. Better yet, solitary confinment without human contact. This kind of criminal needs to be stopped, harshly!

      In Texas, we just shoot the criminals.

      --

      Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    29. Re:give hima real punishment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then so is stopping someone in the hall to say hello.

    30. Re:give hima real punishment... by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      There are a number of reasons for punishing a criminal. First of course, is revenge--make them suffer for their actions. The second though, is in fact rehabilitation. By forcing a criminal to suffer as a direct result of their crimes, they may understand the harm they've caused, and decide not to do it anymore. (Speaking hypothetically, of course.) Thirdly, we have restitution. Regardless of revenge, regardless of rehabilitation, most people would claim that criminals should be made to undo the damage they've caused, when possible. (And when not possible, they should 'repay society' by proxy, i.e. community service.)

      Making a spammer clean up after himself would fit all three categories. Making them do it the hardest way possible would suit the first two, and doesn't really strike me as egregiously cruel.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    31. Re:give hima real punishment... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      However I believe that spamming should not be a crime. In the grand scheme of things... robbing someone is much worse. I struggled with it a bit, but eventually came to think that spamming /is/ robbery. You are stealing time and money. Time because every mass spam mailing results in a million+ people who have to spend a second each deleting that email. Money because of the money that people and companies spend for various spam blocking or intercepting services. It's not simply a matter of punishing someone for inconveniencing people -- it's punishment for actual theft of resources.
    32. Re:give hima real punishment... by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      > If he had to delete 20 billion spam then he might start getting a clue of
      > just how much of a pain in the ass he is for doing his business the way he has

      Say, that's an intriguing way come up with a proportional punishment.

      Tell him to install WinXP on a box, and a special CD that will load a mailbox containing 20,000 spams and one good email.

      Each good email will contain a digit of PI.

      Now, he has to look through (or erase) all the spams to get that digit of PI.

      Then, he has to repeat until he's looked as many spams as he's sent. So, probably one million boxes of 20,000 spams each.

      Once he turns in a hand-written notebook with 1,000,000 digits of PI, he is free to go.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    33. Re:give hima real punishment... by DrLov3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This maybe off topic but I think there is something seriously wrong in the US with the punishment they give to prisonners,
      I mean, you get arrested for DUI(crime in which you put other lives at risk and you get a 23 days sentence) but for a non-violent, non-life threatning crime such and identity theft and spamming(the action of sending lots of emails(GOTO 10, you know, can't live without it)) you get 65 years + a fine.
      Some law makers aren't thinking. On that note, I wish to recommend a more appropriate sentence : 65 years of first line tech support :P (I meant that for Paris Hilton by the way)

      -Hi, you have reached comcast tech support, my name is Paris, how can I help you?
      -Hi m'am, the internet no work no more.
      -OMG, what are we gonna do, like OMG, I'm so hot but people aren't gonna know no more z'OMG ...

    34. Re:give hima real punishment... by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      Well, rehabilitiation generally means you see the source of your crime for what it is. Have his entire case handled by e-mail, both scattered amongst and embedded inside his billions of spam e-mails. He just needs to sift through to find the charges, his defense, evidence, etc.

    35. Re:give hima real punishment... by acvh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      well, I don't lose sleep at night worrying about spam. Yes, it's an annoyance. But is it on the level of rape and murder? No.

      shit like this is why we have a huge prison population. there ARE other means of punishing this guy than locking him up for life (which I doubt will happen anyway). sentence him to work on antispam measures, sentence him to be a teacher in an inner city school, make him work it off.

    36. Re:give hima real punishment... by griffjon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Y'know, I'm all for rehab - but I agree with parent poster, I don't see the point for white-collar financial crimes. You want to rehabilitate the Enron fuckups? Spammers? It's not like they were born in a gang-violence dominated neighborhood with massive social obstacles to overcome and make ends meet and need job training, these are well-educated, well-supported "members" of society who are making money hand over foot at the cost of millions of others. I think a bit of punishment[1] is in order, and then probation - like never being able to touch a computer again. Hell, he can become a computer security consultant to anti-spam companies and make millions again, as long as he stops spamming.

      [1] I predict we'll see a drop off in pen1s 3nlargement!!1! emails after he spends some time in the prison showers...

      --
      Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
    37. Re:give hima real punishment... by falsified · · Score: 1
      Well, that's what they do in Office Space and we all LOVE those guys.

      Bunch of damn hypocrites...

      --
      HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
    38. Re:give hima real punishment... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      It's a lot easier to commit a white collar crime wholesale. That makes it a lot easier to be guilty of n+1 counts of someting. Killing or physically injuring 1000 or 100K people is a lot harder.

      Also there's a difference between being a risk to self and others and actually hurting someone.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    39. Re:give hima real punishment... by murphyje · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, go pull a Superman III and start stealing fractions of cents from financial transactions. Clearly that can't be a crime because it's only annoying people. I mean, if I only steal half a cent from a hundred million people, what harm is there? A million dollars worth of harm, that's what. The effect on individuals is immaterial. Our laws don't go after how much you harmed one person. They go after how much harm you've done. If you walk around town with a can of spray paint and decorate a thousand mailboxes with a red dot, is that somehow less harmful than painting five mailboxes red? This is still just an annoyance. You're not going to suddenly stop getting your TV Guide subscription just because you have a red dot on your mailbox. The damage, however, is equated to the cost of a thousand mailboxes which would translate to about a hundred thousand dollars. No, not everybody will feel compelled to replace their mailbox right away. Every one of the houses, however, will be sold someday and the folks selling the houses will have to replace the spray painted mailboxes. The fact is, this particular spammer has more than likely cased damages far in excess of $250,000 and the specific charges against him must clearly be worth the 65 years projected incarceration.

    40. Re:give hima real punishment... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      It's like the take-a-penny/give-a-penny tray at the convenience store...

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    41. Re:give hima real punishment... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      There are laws about noisy cars too.

      When you start bothering other people, the law tends to get involved.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    42. Re:give hima real punishment... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Criminals commit crimes deliberately, I don't see why we should assume that they are somehow to be "saved", saved by what I ask?

      That's an excellent question, but I think it's pretty clear that throwing them into a box full of violent people who can and probably will give them both HIV and Hepatitis is not going to do it.

      Our prison systems are designed okay if you are totally morally bankrupt and if you were planning to never release anyone from prison. But as it stands, prison tends to make people worse. Recidivism is enormously high as well.

      However I believe that spamming should not be a crime. In the grand scheme of things... robbing someone is much worse.

      I agree, it is much worse on an individual level. But instead of harming one person, a spammer harms everyone. They make the internet more expensive, and they waste the time of thousands (or even more!) of individuals.

      What I don't agree with is that we should be incarcerating nonviolent criminals.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    43. Re:give hima real punishment... by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      He's going to send out an apology. He just needs your email address.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    44. Re:give hima real punishment... by Skynyrd · · Score: 2, Informative

      Spam obviously *annoys* you, so you spend on appropriate countermeasures. Subtraction of, say, a notebook damages you. A knife in your body tends to kill you. The first "damage" is self-inflicted, the other ones are not. So, spam is not theft. By that logic, noisy cars in the road are stealing my time and money, because I choose to install thicker windows.

      I have a graphic heavy website (Gallery 1.x based). Most of my traffic is bots crawling the site and leaving comment spam. Just an annoyance? My bandwidth bills have gone up because my traffic has gone up by a factor of five in the last year. I have recently started hitting my quota, and now it costs me extra each month.

      Obviously I need to find the time to upgrade the site and use some sort of CAPTCHA to keep the spammers at bay.

      You call it an annoyance, but it takes money from my pocket. It's clearly theft and needs to be punished as theft.

    45. Re:give hima real punishment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Revenge isn't justice. As the saying goes, an eye for an eye and eventually everyone is blind.

    46. Re:give hima real punishment... by kisrael · · Score: 1

      However, the process of not removing someone from a mailing list upon their request can be considered harassment.

      I think it gets trickier when the recipient might be afraid of a perfectly legitimate mailing list removal feature, because of the uncertainty of reputation. If it just confirms a valid email address. There's just too much anonymity and wild players for that to work.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    47. Re:give hima real punishment... by david_g17 · · Score: 1

      the crippled kids jar?!?!

    48. Re:give hima real punishment... by Kelbear · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let's just be fair and penalize him for the amount of time that he's cost each person. Let's say a spam mail takes .2 seconds to delete. Hell, let's waive the cost in time and money for the development of anti-spam measures. Let's just keep it to .2 seconds per e-mail. Given the volume of time he's wasted, he's earned it all.

    49. Re:give hima real punishment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess the RIAA was right after with pirating being the opposite.

    50. Re:give hima real punishment... by sharkey · · Score: 1

      Stealing from the crippled children?!?!

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    51. Re:give hima real punishment... by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      I'd rather not have him teaching kids.

      He'd be more useful teaching those working on anti-spam measures what methods he used to circumvent them, and helping them find ways to plug those holes. Once exhausted of useful counter-spam information, he will be credited an "appropriate" amount of his sentence, the rest of which will be served out with hand-labor.

      And #@$% the slippery slope bullcrap. If he's guilty, he's guilty, if he's not, he's not. The system that decides his innocence or guilt is a seperate issue from how he should repay society if declared guilty. I say forced-labor with reward for good work is a good way to do just that.

    52. Re:give hima real punishment... by daeg · · Score: 1

      It certainly does enter the physical realm. The extra processing power, extra storage, extra capacity to handle the volume of spam directly impacts the physical realm, adding to pollution, waste, and excessive energy use.

    53. Re:give hima real punishment... by vimh42 · · Score: 1

      Well, that would be a pain. I was just thinking about the idea of 250k and 65 years. I think I'd rather pay a lot more money and have the jail time reduced. But then again, every dime he has should be frozen as it was ill gotten. Take everything he has and make him start over. Put him on parole for 65 years. Any infraction, nail him to the wall.

    54. Re:give hima real punishment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's not simply a matter of punishing someone for inconveniencing people -- it's punishment for actual theft of resources."

      I don't get a lot of spam. I do get a lot of legitimate e-mails blocked due to spam filters. So my loss is more than just spending time deleting spam. I lose potentially valuable information as well.

    55. Re:give hima real punishment... by Scratch-O-Matic · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the numerous admins who are forced to spend HOURS (not "little bits of time") dealing with spam, either fixing a problem caused by spam or trying to prevent one. This is real time and money that is being wasted on maggots like this guy.

      --


      Evil is the money of root.
    56. Re:give hima real punishment... by maxume · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about them not having to face consequences for their actions, I'm talking about the approach you take in managing their lives for 10 years or whatever, and it making a hell of a lot more sense to try to 'repair' them as such, rather than sending them to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison, and then letting them out even more 'broken'. I know which one I think is cheaper in the long run.

      And actually, the legal system specifies acceptable behavior, not morality. That's why some people act scared when it tries to specify morality, because that's *scary*.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    57. Re:give hima real punishment... by antibryce · · Score: 1

      so it's kind of like stealing but spread over millions of people instead of a single victim.

      So it's like working for the IRS?

    58. Re:give hima real punishment... by Seumas · · Score: 1

      So, spam people and get life in prison.

      Kill someone, molest children, bilk retired employees out of billions of dollars in your corporate scheme . . . do a few years at most.

      I really don't see the point in sentencing a non-violent criminal to life in prison. Or any prison time at all. Spam is easy enough to block. Preventing your computer from becoming a controlled zombie is also simple. Punishing him for "theft of resources" because he used people's computer resources on machines they failed to protect is the same as putting someone in prison for life because they surf via open wifi that people don't lock down. If you don't want it used, don't leave it out there for people to access.

      Don't get me wrong - I hate spam. I hate it a lot. I hate spammers even more. They're arrogant, self-involved assholes. But the guy shouldn't have his life taken from him and spent behind bars in a jail cell over it. If his name had been Ken Lay, he would have been okay.

    59. Re:give hima real punishment... by amuro98 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Spam is tresspassing, fraud (on several different levels), theft, among other things.

      This bozo has been spamming millions of messages a day, every day, for several years.

      Sure, you could argue he's done nothing worse than maybe stealing a penny here, a penny there. However millions of pennies quickly adds up to several tens of thousands of dollars.

      That doesn't include the countless hours people have spent manually deleting any spam that makes it through whatever filtering system they're using, the cost of the filter itself (some corps have easily spent $100k+ on their email filtering hardware/software)

      Furthermore, it's not as if this bozo doesn't know his garbage is unwanted. Why else would he, and the other scum like him, spend so much time devising ways to defeat the filters and get his ads through? Hash busters, image-spam, haywyre encoded javascript, are just a few techniques that were clearly developed to slip through the filters and into users' email boxes.

      65 years? Sounds about right to me. Knowing our screwy legal system, he'll probably end up barely spending 1 year in prison due to good behavior anyways.

    60. Re:give hima real punishment... by amuro98 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lack of countermeasures does not imply permission.

      Do you have bars on your windows? No? Then it must be OK for me to break into your house. After all, I'm not commiting a crime here, otherwise you would have put appropriate countermeasures in place, right?

      Oh, and excessive noise IS considered a crime. Don't believe me? Invite your local death metal band over to your place for an unbridled jam session at 3am, and see what your neighbors do. Well, it IS their fault after all. They could have installed better sound proofing on their houses, right?

      Yeah...spoken like a true spammer.

    61. Re:give hima real punishment... by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      "However I believe that spamming should not be a crime. In the grand scheme of things... robbing someone is much worse."

      Ok, then look at it this way. This spammer robbed businesses of millions of dollars in lost time. There, now he is a "real" criminal in your eyes and can be punished as such.
      Do you really think taking $20 from someone personally is somehow worse than robbing thousands of people using a computer?? That logic makes no sense...

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    62. Re:give hima real punishment... by Ed_Pinkley · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here are some fuzzy numbers from google / wiki.
      1) He was sending 20 million emails over 15 days. Let's call that 1 million emails per day.
      2) He was doing this since 2003. Let's call that 3 years.
      3) 3 Years * 365 Days * 1 million emails per day is 1,095,000,000 emails.
      4) Some spam emails are obvious and some are not. Lets say it takes you, on average, 5 seconds additional time to detect and delete a spam email. That's 5,475,000,000 seconds he has cost people.
      5) 60 seconds, 60 minutes, 24 hours, 365.25 days = 173 years.
      6) That doesn't include cpu cycles waisted or law enforcement costs. That's 2+ lifetimes. *just in wasted time*.

      Even if I am off by an order of magnitude. I'm ok with years of prison. (I'm also ok with higher penalties for drunk driving, but that's another story.)

      --
      "Long time listener, first time caller."
    63. Re:give hima real punishment... by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      I would lose more sleep worrying about Spam than rape or murder. The odds of me getting Spam are 100% while the likelyhood of rape or murder is ridiculously low...

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    64. Re:give hima real punishment... by amuro98 · · Score: 1

      Have him personally go to each and every computer infected with the botnet spammer software, and clean it. If this requires a full system restore, be sure that all user data, settings and applications are migrated and re-installed as well.

      When he's done with that, have his organs removed for transplant. At least then he will have left something positive behind.

    65. Re:give hima real punishment... by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 1

      Fuck rehabilitation. I got some honey and I'm sure we can find some rope. Lets rehabilitate his ass by staking it out in the desert. We can amuse ourselves by placing bets on what will get him first, the sun or the ants. Then we can post the video to youtube as an example to the next spamming asshat.

      --

      Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

    66. Re:give hima real punishment... by photomonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like the 'real' sentences have stopped drug use and abuse as well as trafficking?

      The US imprisons more people than the vast majority of the world's countries.

      Nevermind the fact that it can cost us more to imprison someone than the monetary value of the damage he did.

      --
      Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
    67. Re:give hima real punishment... by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 1

      I run the corp. mailserver here too. Spaming makes me long for the release of physical violence. Of the 250,000 emails coming through here 85% of them are shit. And that is after the spam filters and rbi blocks.

      --

      Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

    68. Re:give hima real punishment... by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      So, let me get this straight: *don't* execute him, but *do* make him work in an inner city school?

      Does your parenting advice include "*don't* let your daughter become a sex object, but *do* make her work at Hooters"?

    69. Re:give hima real punishment... by tacocat · · Score: 1

      That comes to mind. But I think ten years ago there was more merit to this way of thinking. It's far too easy for someone to get your email address today. To confirm an address means nothing to them. They don't really care - it's either all hit and miss or they already have confirmed your email address.

      But the legitimate advertisers or subscriptions could and should use this mechanism for removal. Besides, failure to remove becomes harrassment.

    70. Re:give hima real punishment... by Zibblsnrt · · Score: 1

      Not that I don't see your point, but I'd imagine some moderately sheltered and pasty spammer would be more intimidated by the thought of six months in prison than your typical veteran urban drug dealer would be by the thought of six years in it.

      --
      "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
    71. Re:give hima real punishment... by photomonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's not the best argument. I'm a technology-oriented person and am in very good shape. In fact, I'm a state boxing champ. So not all nerds are pasty, 98-pound weaklings.

      Second, there is probably tremendous profit potential in dealing in spam. If there weren't, people like this wouldn't do it. What's six months or a few uncomfortable years in prison if you come out rich, and with rights to the TV movie and book?

      Finally, you get someone who's already a criminal, and a pretty smart one at that, and throw him in the general population with other criminals. What do you think they're going to talk about there while he festers? Probably one of two things: Jesus or crime, and more probably talk about crime. Prison is like crime college featuring taxpayer-paid tuition, room and board.

      Prison should be reserved for those who are out to physically harm others and cannot be loose. We should use community service and other society-beneficial practices to punish and rehabilitate those that commit nonviolent crimes.

      --
      Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
    72. Re:give hima real punishment... by BenSchuarmer · · Score: 1

      all he has to do is hit the delete key (a few billion times).

    73. Re:give hima real punishment... by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      robbing someone is much worse.

      Robbing is certainly worse than sending sending an unsolicited e-mail. That's a dumb comparision.

      But you forgot the other charges which were, "identity theft, money laundering, and mail, wire, and e-mail fraud".

      These charges center around the fact that this spammer is a *dishonest* scumbag. If I were to compare somebody who lied to me to somebody who stole something from me, I would say the thief is better than the liar (who is better than the pest [i.e. the innocent spammer who you approve of]).

      You can only do so much damage stealing things. Dishonesty, on the other hand, leads down much darker roads.

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    74. Re:give hima real punishment... by kkohlbacher · · Score: 1

      Perhaps some guidelines are in order here:

      - Force to use Outlook 2003

      - Start him off with a bulk, I dunno, 1 million to get started with.

      - Set 'Desktop Alert' to 20 seconds, 5% transparency and keep e-mails coming every 5-10 seconds.

      - Remove the Delete key thus enforcing Right-Click -> Delete.

      - Disable right-click hotkey


      That will stop ANY future spammer! Although, this may be worse than water boarding...

    75. Re:give hima real punishment... by wallywam1 · · Score: 1

      Just like Superman III (reprised in Office Space). All your half cents are belong to us.

    76. Re:give hima real punishment... by YouTookMyStapler · · Score: 1

      I wish to recommend a more appropriate sentence

      Maybe the "Spam King" will get porked while in prison.

      "I got your Spam right here!"

      heh heh
    77. Re:give hima real punishment... by Eternauta3k · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and if they made a toothpaste tube that somehow didn't need to be opened, several lifetimes would be saved.
      Except, it doesn't matter because it is split between millions of people. I hate spam as much as anyone but thsi is ridiculous.

      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
    78. Re:give hima real punishment... by jcr · · Score: 1

      Criminals or spammers? Because your post appears to make no distinction

      Spammers are criminals. There's no distinction to make.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    79. Re:give hima real punishment... by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it doesn't matter because it is split between millions of people.

      So, is insurance fraud OK with you, too? I mean, the money is stolen from all the policy holders, so if someone steals a million bucks then each person affected only pays a buck, right?

      The idea that a crime is diminished because it affects millions of people is asinine.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    80. Re:give hima real punishment... by jcr · · Score: 1

      Prison is like crime college featuring taxpayer-paid tuition, room and board.

      This is why I would advocate him being held in solitary confinement.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    81. Re:give hima real punishment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Did you miss the part about:

      1. identity theft
      2. money laundering
      3. mail, wire, and e-mail fraud


      Is 65 years still excessive?

    82. Re:give hima real punishment... by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      Long jail time isn't so interesting here... Make him pay all his victims expenses due to his spams... And make him work off any debt he cannot pay through chain gang labour while wearing a pink overall with the word "SPAMMER" in huge capital letters both front and back. While working in public it should be allowed to spit or pee on him, throw things at him (even from moving cars) and so on.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    83. Re:give hima real punishment... by asninn · · Score: 1

      That's astoundingly ridiculous. Revenge and retribution have no place in a civilised society; punishment for crimes should have (or actually has, depending on where you're from) the SOLE purpose of preventing future crime by enabling people to become productive members of society again. I'm not sure that's recognised in the USA, but other nations do - Germany would be an example I know about.

      And how can you argue that this guy isn't ill? Come on, he's the PERFECT TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE of a sociopath.

      --
      butter the donkey
    84. Re:give hima real punishment... by asninn · · Score: 1

      This isn't about an eye for an eye, you know...

      --
      butter the donkey
    85. Re:give hima real punishment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...as a society aren't we suppose to seek the rehabilitation of criminals ..."

      Hmm. I hear this all the time. The first and foremost reason for jails in our society is to remove the criminals from society. Period. Then we can work on rehabilitating them if their crimes deem it. Rapist, murderers, pedophiles, etc. should not be let back into society. My friend from college, Sarah, was raped and murdered in her own apartment by a guy who was convicted for raping and was let go on parole for "good behavior". She would probably still be alive today if he would have stayed in jail where that monster belonged.

  2. Is 65 years excessive? by lib3rtarian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't decide, what do people think, 65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?

    1. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Delirium+Tremens · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It is not excessive. The guy is a world-wide nuisance with direct and indirect impact on communication efficiency, economy and personal health (stress, anger, you name it).

    2. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they should calculate it by:

      for each spam email sent:
      -for each email opened: +5 seconds
      -for each email filtered: +1 second

      I predict even on this basis, he'd be picking up the soap for a long time yet.

      --
      throw new NoSignatureException();
    3. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by AltGrendel · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Not really.
      • He will probably appeal.
      • He'll say that the sentence is excessive and get it reduced.
      • There's always time off for good behavior.
      • What would be worse is if he's sentenced to have nothing to do with computers in any way, at all, ever.
      --
      The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination

      - Douglas Adams

    4. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think that sentence for all charges not just spamming: identity theft, money laundering, and mail, wire, and e-mail fraud. So if you add them all up, 65 years is probably right.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    5. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1, Insightful
      NO.

      Next question

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    6. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Is that excessive?


      Nope, not in the least. When you consider that he took over people's machines, used those machines to scam people, took their money and laundered it for his own use and forged other people's email addresses for the return addresses on his emails, thus having innocent people harassed, 65 years is a good start.

      Solitary confinement with him only able to be out three hours a day would be a good thing. In fact, use his money the government wants to confiscate to pay for his incarceration. That way the taxpayers don't have to foot to the bill for this asshat.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    7. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I apply a very simple test: "What does the average murderer/rapist/pedophile get when convicted?" If the answer is less then the person in question I ask "What's worse, what this person did or what they did?" If murder, rape and pedophilia are worse, then I say either those crimes need to have harsher sentences or this is way too excessive. The trick is, do you decrease what spammers get or increase what murderers, rapists and pedophiles get?

    8. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      I can't decide, what do people think, 65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?

      No, but 65 years of being another man's girlfriend is.

    9. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 1

      Do you decrease what spammers get or increase what murderers, rapists and pedophiles get?

      Simple. You hang the bastards. All of them.
    10. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      No and yes. No because he did commit a lot of crimes, and yes because sadly, in comparison to a lot of wealthier, better connected white collar criminals he is getting an incredibly harsh sentence. Duke Cunningham's crimes were as bad if not worse, and he only got 8 years and some change.

      Sad the way the justice system works.....

    11. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by jimstapleton · · Score: 1

      Think about all the time he's wasted, in total, with a lot of people.

      Think about the unpleasantries he's put them through with some of his messages (I don't know which he's done, but I've seen some pretty horrible spam subjects).

      I suspect if you locked him up for a duration equal to the total time he took from others, 65 years would be lenient in comparison.

      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    12. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by timholman · · Score: 1

      I can't decide, what do people think, 65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?

      I think if you added up all the hours of other peoples' lives that have been wasted dealing with the spam he's sent, then 65 years is a fair sentence.

      Consider: if 10 million people worldwide spent five minutes of their lives deleting the spams he has mailed, that works out to 95.1 years. An eye for an eye seems only fair.
    13. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Is that excessive? Hmm no. On the contrary, I think that this sentence is incredibly light. If I were the judge, I'd give him one million years.
    14. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by morpheus83 · · Score: 1

      Still 65 years ia bit too harsh.

    15. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      While your solution is simpler, is it the right thing to do? Me, I believe in rehabilitation. I don't think we do it very well under the current system, but I do believe it is possible and that we need to get better at doing it.

    16. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      apply a very simple test: "What does the average murderer/rapist/pedophile get when convicted?" If the answer is less then the person in question I ask "What's worse, what this person did or what they did?"
      You have to be careful because murder/rape/pedophilia is directed at one or a few victims. Spamming is a distributed crime. Each individual victim may have suffered less, but the aggregate damage may be much more.

      Is there a difference between stealing $50,000 from a bank, and stealing 1 cent from each of 5 million of the bank's customers? It's the same amount of money, and the same people are going to absorb the cost. But for some reason people think "1 cent per person isn't that much" and decide to let the spammer off easy. Just because the crime is distributed across many victims doesn't make it any less of a crime.

    17. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by MollyB · · Score: 1

      Ha ha. I'd contribute to the K-Y jelly fund.

      Unable to be rational here... If thoughts could kill, this guy'd be worm-castings long ago. So he gets free room and board, along with a "roommate". I feel no mercy for him, any more than he felt for us.

    18. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good behaviour? I doubt that the guards would take kindly to his non-stop shouting "ch3ap cyb1ls1!" and "Increase The Number Of Visitors To Your Website With WebBoosTer!"

    19. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by phantomlord · · Score: 1

      Lets say this guy committed 100 counts each of identity theft, money laundering, mail fraud, and wire fraud. That's at least 100 lives he's messed up. 100 people who will have credit problems which take dozens of hours and possibly years to repair. A single murder may be worth, oh, 10 years... but this isn't a single case of identity theft, he is a serial identity stealer so if you want to compare his sentence to a murderer, compare him to a serial killer.

      Nobody would seriously say someone who sent 1 spam mail should get 65 years in prison. A day of community service maybe, but not 65 years. If he sent one million spams, he should get one million days of community service. Actually, lets be nice and give him a bulk discount, we'll give him 1 hour for every spam. That's 41667 days or a little over 114 years of community service. This guy knew exactly what he was doing and he deliberately defrauded thousands of people, hijacked other people's computers, ruined people's credit, etc. The entire penal system is about punishing people for harming society and this guy went out of his way, and far beyond just being a rude jerk, to treat other people like crap.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    20. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by deroby · · Score: 1

      That's not a sentence, that's my ultimate dream ! =)

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    21. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So all those things aggregated is worse then a single life is it? Wow. I'm sure glad I don't live in your world.

    22. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by MathFox · · Score: 1

      65 years is the maximum sentence. While I think that sending people to prison for simply sending out mass-mailings is somewhat excessive, Soloway has committed severer offenses by using botnets and spoofing email headers. It would be fair if he got a year to reconsider his way of life (plus fines to negate his illegal profits).

      --
      extern warranty;
      main()
      {
      (void)warranty;
      }
    23. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes it is excessive if you consider that killing a person get's you far less than that.

      Premeditated murder gets you 30 years and no fines.

      So annoying someone via email is worse than killing people.

      God help him if they think he hacked anything, they will add 120 years for "hacking".

      Our judicial system is Fubared.

    24. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." - Ghandi

    25. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by bberens · · Score: 1

      Rehabilitation is not a deterrent. Public hanging is a deterrent. I would rather deter crime than help people who commit it. I mean hey, it's my money.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    26. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Broken+scope · · Score: 1

      .01? That would take a ton of panhandling.

      --
      You mad
    27. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by SkunkPussy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Noone died, noone was physically threatened, noone felt fearful.

      Yes millions have people have been inconvenienced, and yes phenomenal amounts of bandwidth have been wasted (the costs of this have been mostly incurred by victims of the spammer).This is a white collar crime.

      The spammer is not a danger to society, just a pain in the arse so an appropriate punishment is a small prison sentence, coupled with a phenomenal fine - e.g. 10 million dollars.

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    28. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by jrumney · · Score: 1

      A life sentence in some countries is 14 years, in others 25. It seldom means life. So 65 years is excessive. But this has been calculated by adding up all the maximum sentences for his individual crimes as if he would serve time for them end-to-end. Sentencing rarely works like this. Sentences for multiple related crimes are usually served concurrently, so the maximum he is likely to serve is whatever the maximum is for the most serious crime on the list. Also, first time offenders rarely get the maximum sentence.

    29. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      65 years is what he would get if all convicted on all crimes. Most often those murderers/rapists/pedophile are facing hundreds of years in prison on all counts. The actual sentence is shorter due to statutes and practical considerations.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    30. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Broken+scope · · Score: 1

      "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
      "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
      and on and on and on and on....

      --
      You mad
    31. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Punishment in general isn't a deterrent. If it was, there would be hardly anyone committing murder in the US states which still have the death penalty.

      It's often thought that the best deterrent is fear of getting caught. Put police officers on the streets rather than behind desks.

    32. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Broken+scope · · Score: 1

      He did far more than just spamming. Why don't you go read the charges against him. Make sure to make note of the number of counts.

      --
      You mad
    33. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by someone1234 · · Score: 1

      Dunno, 250k sounds pocket money. Sadly, he won't receive 65 years either.

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    34. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Gospodin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Whoever this Mr. Noone is, he really sounds like the victim here.

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    35. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      See the first post :)

      If you add up all the time the world has spent deleting the spam he sent, it's probably a lot more than 65 years.

      He's getting off easy.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    36. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by toleraen · · Score: 1

      Agreed. But it's not like it's "65 years without parole". He'll get out way before 65 years on good behavior.

    37. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can I kick him as well? The amount of stress and lost time these guys cause with their nonsense deserves big punishment.

    38. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Public hanging is a deterrent. I would rather deter crime than help people who commit it. I mean hey, it's my money. I'm sure your president thanks you for buying into the Captialist ideal so much, comrade.
    39. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm sure Ghandi was quite wrong when he pointed out the problem with seeking vengence. After all, India and Pakistan did so well by ignoring him.

    40. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by maxume · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You also have to be careful that you don't over estimate the damages. I would estimate that spam has damaged me to the extent of about $11 over the last five years. I would be satisfied if any individual responsible for more than $0.25 of that had to do a jumping jack, and any individual responsible for more than $2 of it had to do a somersault. Of course, with a billion of us getting spam, some of those guys are going to end up tired and dizzy.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    41. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by oggiejnr · · Score: 1

      I think you ought to the effects the so-called 'bloody code' in England between the 17th and 19th centuries on the crime rate - there was a reason that it was eventually abandoned.

    42. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Broken+scope · · Score: 1

      Well fuck me for attempting some small amount of humor.

      --
      You mad
    43. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by michrech · · Score: 1

      I was going to reply to someone else, further down, but this seems like as good a spot as any.

      I can't decide, what do people think, 65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?

      Hell no, 65 years isn't excessive. I've read about 2/3 of the replies to this story and what you ALL seem to have missed is that he's not convicted solely of sending SPAM. Didn't you even read the damned BLURB, let alone TFA? Each crime he committed has a separate punishment and, when combined, equals the 65 years.

      Money Laundering, fraud (mail, wire, email), identity theft, evading detection by forging email headers of REAL, INNOCENT, people, using botnets to send his crap (helped him evade detection/arrest, and probably can also be a separate charge for theft of services (computer time, network usage, power consumption).

      This bastard BELONGS in jail where he can live with his own kind. All we can hope for is that at least *some* of the inmates he ends up with have received SPAM before they got in there so they can "take care" of him.

      Let's all quit shedding tears for this cunt. He doesn't deserve them.

      --
      bork bork bork!
    44. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by McDutchie · · Score: 1

      I think that sentence for all charges not just spamming: identity theft, money laundering, and mail, wire, and e-mail fraud. So if you add them all up, 65 years is probably right.

      Actually, spamming was not one of the charges, as spamming is not a crime in the USA (not even under the you-CAN-SPAM act).

    45. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Intron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't value your own time very highly, then. Personally, I charge $75/hour for consulting. If I spend a 10 minutes per week deleting spam and updating mail filtering software, that's $12 right there.

      Multiply that by 1 million people and you get an idea of the real damages due to this guy.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    46. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by sheddd · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's excessive. Now, in addition to wasting people's money and time thru spamming, he's going to cost taxpayers about 3 million to keep him in jail. Society would be better off if he was cheaply executed, and spend the 3 million on something useful.

    47. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by dbzero · · Score: 1

      I think it's excessive. I mean considering the last time I looked, "life" in Florida is 25 years. A murderer who gets "life" would spend far less time.

    48. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Why do you believe in rehabilitation if nobody has ever been able to do it, despite vast public expenditure, the best efforts of great minds, the concentration of man's greatest religions? Are you loopy?

      The mass of criminality is 7/10ths genetic, 2/10th environment (unshared -- the kind we can't fix), and maybe 1/20th free will. It's unavoidable and unfixable.

      Maybe I exaggerate. There is perhaps one way to do it, if you really want to stop crime. Invent a smart pill. Raise everybody's IQ by a standard deviation, and we'll probably be as docile as Asians.

    49. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by DoctorPepper · · Score: 1

      Could possibly be Peter Noone from "Herman's Hermits"???

      --

      No matter where you go... there you are.
    50. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by jon_anderson_ca · · Score: 1

      That's the truth... if your crime is slowing down computer networks and costing people money, there should be a difference in kind (not just degree) from how murderers, rapists, etc. get punished.

      Did you kill/rape/beat somebody? Go to prison. Did you cost individuals and businesses millions of dollars? Make restitution. Can't do it? Let the government seize your illicit earnings and take an extra chunk of your paycheque until the debt is paid. A real job, that you have to keep Or Else (like being on parole).

      Spam is a serious problem, but it's a you-cost-us-a-lot-of-money problem, not a you-took-a-human-life problem.

    51. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by monstermagnet · · Score: 1

      > There's always time off for good behavior.

      You'd like to think that the Federal prison system would reward good behavior.

      Parole is basically dead in the Federal prison system. Federal prisoners must serve at least 85% of their sentence. After they get out, there is a separate period of "supervised release" that has been implemented as a clunky replacement for parole.

    52. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually, believe it or not, despite all the fear-mongering of politicians, MANY criminals have been able to reform their lives and become good citizens. I worked in a juvenile facility and saw many kids convicted of the most heinous crimes go on to become normal citizens.

      The reason most criminals are never rehabilitated (at least in the U.S.) is because most prisons (especially adult ones) don't even try--because they have lazy "they can't BE rehabilitated" attitudes very much like yours. This is a real tragedy for society too, because 95%+ of the prisoners in any given prison will be coming out one day.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    53. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by supersnail · · Score: 1

      Even better of they responded to those Viagra spams.
      5 times a night for 65 years -- still not quite what he deserves.

      --
      Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
    54. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?
      Depends. Do you want to forget that he's done more than just spamming? The truth is we have no idea what damage this guy caused. He went out of his way to make other people - sometimes businesses - look responsible for his behavior. An ISP I used to work at very nearly went out of business because of such an attack once. Eleven people - one pregnant - would have lost their jobs, and this was at the very worst part of what we now call the dot com bust.

      So I mean, yeah, a life sentence seems pretty harsh. But, look - that's the worst possible sentence, not what he's actually gotten; furthermore, that assumes that the judge wants consecutive terms rather than concurrent terms. It's quite a bit more likely that Solway will end up spending the bulk of the single largest charge in jail (presumably the fraud charge.) I'm expecting twelve years, and for the amount of damage his kind of behavior can cause, that sounds entirely reasonable to me. This guy could potentially have cost thousands of jobs. You're damn right he needs to be behind bars long enough to miss a fashion trend.

      This isn't about the spam, in my eyes. This is about the fraud. Spam's one thing. Making other people take the brunt - that's something else entirely.
      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    55. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Majik+Sheff · · Score: 1

      Deterrence is a word used by people who have been cowed into believing that they need to somehow justify a suitable punishment. It's simple: if you commit particularly heinous crimes*, you are a cancer on society and need to be removed permanently. *Murder, commission of murder, rape, and child molestation, to name the top candidates.

      --
      Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
    56. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The spammer is not a danger to society, just a pain in the arse so an appropriate punishment is a small prison sentence, coupled with a phenomenal fine - e.g. 10 million dollars.

      So if you're a rich, successful criminal, you should get off very lightly? $10 million may be a lot to thee and me, but is it to him?
      And if he doesn't have $10 million, well, you can't get blood from a stone.

    57. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Spamming by itself is relitivly unprofitable today. There is the work involved getting around the filters, trying to get people to open and read the email, and not just delete it once they realize that it bulk junk email. But what Spammers do now to make it profitable is use this work for all the other illegal stuff as the parent mentioned "identity theft, money laundering, and mail, wire, and e-mail fraud". I mean if you were actually trying to sell a real and legal product threw spamming you have the above costs + the cost to make the product, store, manufacture it...., you are better off advertising it other ways that don't piss off potentional customers and that are more afordable and get just a braud market. But the personal aspect of email makes it much easer to commit fraud, to the poor lame sap.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    58. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by nocaster · · Score: 1

      I can't decide, what do people think, 65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?

      I know a guy that got 15 years for a cold blooded murder. His lawyer was able to plead his charge down to 2nd degree manslaughter and was out in 7 years. But still, 65 years for a spammer sounds about right.
    59. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 2, Informative

      >as spamming is not a crime in the USA

      In Washington State it is a civil offense. Statutory damages are $500 per spam sent.

      The kicker is you have to either find a judge who knows that, or else is willing to take the time to learn the nuances of the anti-spam law in Washington State. Most judges in Washington State do not believe that spam is a civil offense, even after the relevant statute has been quoted in full in the complaint.

      Amber

      --
      Wind Beneath Thy Wings
    60. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What's the bigger crime? Kicking one person into ER delivery or flicking a million people's ears? Prank calling a million people or stalking a single person?

      Most murders are single time offenses. When someone kills his wife, he's not out to kill YOU, he killed her for some reason. No excuse, by far not, but he's no threat to you. Of course, if he's a loonie and picked a random person, it's a different matter, but most capital crimes are very personal ones, and don't affect me. Sorry for being selfish here, but, frankly, I don't care about it.

      I didn't know his wife, and I am not harmed by his crime at all.

      Doesn't mean he shouldn't go free, of course, don't get this wrong. But he committed a crime against a single person. A very, very serious crime, but still, with one victim.

      Spammers, by their very nature, have millions if not billions of victims. Every single victim only suffers very, very little, of course. A spam mail is at best a nuisance, certainly nothing you even think about anymore 2 seconds later.

      But does that excuse the crime? When you affect one person gravely, is it more serious than affecting a billion people minimally? Is it more acceptable when I go out and punch everyone I see than beating the snot out of someone I pick as a punching ball target?

      I'd be wary with excusing "little" crimes when they affect a lot of people. It might give the wrong message.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    61. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're so negative. Why not call it a hands-on experience for trying how all that herbal viagra and penis enlargement works.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    62. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by csplinter · · Score: 1

      I wont say he should be sentenced to death but, I can see how someone could think that. By my rough estimate every ~3 million emails this guy sent negated an entire human life based on the premise that humans on average live 80 years and it takes 15 seconds to find and delete a spam message. I say 65 years sounds pretty reasonable when you think about it this way.

    63. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just make him use an AOL E-mail account.

    64. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      ...or one well written trojan.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    65. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by glindsey · · Score: 1

      Considering that, given our prison system, he'll probably be paroled in four or five years, I'd say no.

    66. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting. What was the recidivism rate at your facility? The one I worked at (for violent youths) kept theirs low by only tracking the patients for sixth months after treatment.

    67. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by XSforMe · · Score: 1

      Solitary confinement with him only able to be out three hours a day would be a good thing.
      On the other hand, Bubba might get lonely. So my vote is none solitary with Bubba as cell mate.

      --
      My other OS is the MCP!
    68. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Tom · · Score: 1

      I apply a very simple test: "What does the average murderer/rapist/pedophile get when convicted?" Good point. In this case, however, the more appropriate question would be "what would someone who raped 10 million people per day, every day, for many years, get?". I'm absolutely with you that someone like that should get a much, much harsher penalty.
      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    69. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If convicted he'll get much less than the maximum term and then he'll get off early for good behavior. I bet he doesn't serve more than 5 years at the max.

    70. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by csplinter · · Score: 1

      There is a reason people talk about how rapist shouldn't be shot in the face because murderers get off easier than that. It is because if rapist get shot in the face and murderers got out in a few years it would be a huge incentive to commit a rape and murder rather than just a rape. What doesn't make since is not taking in to account all the reasons we put people in prisons, in hope that we can be consistent with our criminals. We put people in prison to rehabilitate them, punish them, and to convince people who are not criminals that they don't want to end up like that guy in prison. When you think about that last reason you have to consider other factors beyond how heinous a crime is. What I'm getting at is spammers are hard to catch, it's easy to spam and, it's very profitable. To balance the equation and make spamming no longer such an attractive deal you have to be very harsh and, personally I have no problem putting putting spammers in prison twice as long as murderers if that's what it takes to make people respect the risk they would be taking to start a spamming business.

    71. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Whoever this Mr. Noone is, he really sounds like the victim here. Peter Noone used to be the lead singer of Herman's Hermits. They were big in the 60s.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    72. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by DrRossi · · Score: 1

      Put police officers on the streets rather than behind desks.

      Those police officers behind desks are investigating spammers (amongst other things of course).

      By putting them on the streets you can be sure no spammer will be caught, or any white-collar criminal for that matter.

      It is a common fallacy, I don't know why, that officers behind desks are into bureacracy and inefficiency, and officers on the streets are the only ones doing real work. Of course, this is not true. You need both. Unless, of course, you only want street litterers brought to justice.

    73. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      1. Rehabilitation has happened. It simply doesn't happen often enough for our liking.

      2. If islamic terrorists can brainwash people into flying planes into buildings and martyring themselves, I think American can convince a few criminals not to kill other people. Now if the choices are murdering the criminal, or brainwashing them through any means necessary, I'm open to giving the criminal the option of choosing their punishment. But then again I'm not in favor of the death penalty, and not truly in favor of what would be required to brainwash a murderer. Simply put, rehabilitation is possible without going to such extremes, we just need to get better at it.

    74. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Glothar · · Score: 1

      If he actually gets that, yes.

      Look people, it's just the max. You get that number by summing the maximum sentences of each individual crime the person commits. Let's look at an example (I-Am-Not-A-Lawyer):

      Guy kills another guy in a car accident. It's not murder, just manslaughter, so he has (for example) a maximum of 35 years in prison. Maybe we add drunk driving (5 years). Now he's got a max sentence of 40 years in prison. Pretty bad.

      Second guy steals a valve-stem cover. It's barely theft and its just a misdemeanor. It's got a maximum sentence of 30 days in jail, however, he's done it 800 times. 800 counts of misdemeanor theft, at a month a piece is about 66 years.

      Does this mean the second guy is worse than the first? Stealing a valve-stem cover is hardly worse than manslaughter. It's not even close to drunk driving. Why does he get the bigger sentence? In truth, he doesn't. No judge is going to sentence someone to 66 years for something that petty. Criminals rarely serve consecutive sentences for large numbers of similar crimes. They rarely serve consecutive sentences for large numbers of any crimes. Judges aren't stupid. Beyond cherry-picked examples, murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and people convicted of manslaughter generally get much longer sentences than people convicted of multiple counts of minor crimes. This guy won't be serving the max on each and every charge and he'll probably have his sentences served concurrently. It's just stupid to do things any other way.

      That said, I doubt even 5 years of prison will be enjoyable for this guy.

    75. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that all of Robert Soloway's crimes aggregated is worse then the taking of one single life? Please tell me I'm wrong.

    76. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      Taking "Noone" as a person's name ... That reminds me of a story we had to read in 3rd-grade (8-9 year olds) English class. If someone can remember what it is, I'd appreciate it.

      Basically, it went like this. One day, a rural African farmer, let's call him Mkembe, left his farm to visit a major city, just for the heck of it.

      First, he saw a stable of donkeys. He asked someone nearby who owned them. The response: "Nbwadike."

      "Wow," Mkembe thought, "Nbwadike must be a wealthy man, to own all these donkeys."

      Then, he saw a very tall, impressive looking building. He asked someone nearby who owned it. The response: "Nbwadike."

      "Wow!" Mkembe thought, "This Nbwadike must be wealthy beyond my imagination. To have all those donkeys ... and this huge building!"

      Then he passed by a funeral procession. He asked someone nearby who this famous person was, that died. The response: "Nbwadike."

      Mkembe was horrified. "Nbwadike ... such a wealthy man ... he owned all these great things. But it couldn't save him. He still died. We all die. No matter how much wealth we acquire, no matter how fabulous ... they don't mean anything in the end. How pointless to spend one's life in pursuit of wealth."

      He returned to his farm and devoted the rest of his life, not to expanding production, but to giving selflessly to others. His village came to love him for his kindness.

      No one ever bothered to tell him that they spoke a different language in the city and "Nbwadike" means "I don't understand."

    77. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't decide, what do people think, 65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?

      Considering that there is a man in California serving life under "3 strikes" for stealing a candy bar and that there are LOTS of people serving life under "3 strikes" for growing plants I'd say 64 years for someone stealing time and bandwidth from millions of people isn't the least bit excessive!

      -mcgrew

    78. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, FUCK YOU.

      I'm getting sick of your retarded comments.

    79. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      It was about 62% over a 2 year tracking period. Not a bad number, considering that most of the kids had been habitual offenders when they came to us.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    80. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by steveargonman · · Score: 1

      I don't think 65 is excessive. What is unfortunate though is this guy probably cannot get a truly fair trial unless they weed out e-mail users.

    81. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 1

      Seems excessive to me. Do snail mail scammers get this much time?

      I get junk mail from credit card companies all the time. Many times they put the junk in envelopes that look official--turns out it's just some trash trying to get me to shell out money unwisely. Doesn't seem all that different from spam to me.

      Also--the opt-out thing for credit card invites (turns out you can ask them to stop) didn't work 100%. It slowed them down considerably, but I still get stuff from credit card companies. And then there are insurance companies, and grocery stores...

    82. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Ornedan · · Score: 1

      Yes, they are. Certainly in the same scale.
      You could assign infinite as the value of a single human life, but then you end up being unable to be objective in several situations (for example, this, or evaluating risks). IMO, the value should be very high, because I'd like individual humans to be valued in those calculations.
      However, causing enough minor damage that fixing it in aggregate takes up several human lifetimes should be considered equivalent to taking up one human lifetime through the premature termination of a single life.

    83. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Illusion2269 · · Score: 1

      If you figure on the millions of people who have had to deal with spam emails, 65 years isn't that much.

      65 years is approx. 34 million minutes. If he affected 34 million people, he will be serving 1 minute in prison for each person he affected, who spent hours cleaning up their machine, or hundreds of dollars to have someone else do it.

      If you ask me, he would be getting off light.

    84. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The right thing to do is to make sure these people don't get to live long enough to breed. They should be executed or castrated. Part of our problem now is that no one is willing to enforce any sort of standards anywhere: social or criminal. This is a mild nuisance for those parts of the society that needs minimal supervision. It's a festering cancer in other places.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    85. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      And I'm glad I don't live in yours. I'm glad *you* don't live in yours. If you really believed life was infinitely valuable in the sense that the GP was using the term, you'd never do anything that in any way increased the risk of anyone dying -- because such an act would have infinite cost.

    86. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think they did that in Superman 3.

    87. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      65 years is basically a life sentence. Is that excessive?

      At a minimum cost of imprisonment of $20,000, and assuming this figure inflates by 3%/year, it will cost about $3.8 million to imprison him for that time.

      However, This PDF indicates that the price per prisoner in Washington State is $31,906 in 2001 dollars, before calculating collateral expenses.

      That would put the price to taxpayers for 65 years at $6.2 million.

      I'd consider that excessive.

      - RG>
      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    88. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      Justice is good.
      Mercy is better.
      But Justice is still good.
      But Mercy without Justice means there is no Justice.
      Justice without Mercy, is just good.

    89. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by david_g17 · · Score: 1

      Rehabilitation is not a deterrent. Public hanging is a deterrent. I would rather deter crime than help people who commit it. I mean hey, it's my money.

      Who cares about deterrence? Hanging is good because it gets rid of bad people. A form of natural selection.
    90. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Puh-lease! In America a person who attempts murder of another will only serve around 8 years (unless they are black and try to kill a white person or a woman trying to kill a man, then they get more time).

      This guy will be free in less than 4 years, maybe less than 1!

    91. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Well, and you're going to hate this, I don't value your time that highly. And that's what society should be interested in, how they value your time, not how you value your time. Putting people in prison is expensive.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    92. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      As a matter of fact, I do think that stealing 1 cent each from 5 million people is less of a crime than stealing 50 thousand dollars. For me, it's how much the crime hurts others, rather than the illegitimate rewards. I don't feel the need to punish someone just for doing well for themselves illegitimately. Of course, as soon as millions start stealing 1 cent, the argument falls apart...

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    93. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Ryokos_boytoy · · Score: 1

      This is a clear case of punishment not fitting the crime. Spam is a pain in the ass and I would love to kick this guys ass but what damage has really been done to me? I just had to click delete a few thousand times (maybe more). Lock him up? Bah, that helps nobody. Strip him of every asset he has and toss his ass to who ever wants to prosecute him. A few years getting screwed over by the US "justice" system is all the punishment he deserves.

      Somebody mentioned DUI. Now there is a punishment not fitting the crime. You get punished for what COULD have happened. WTF is that? So if I shoot a pistol into the ground, I should be charged with attempted murder? Bullshit. If you're drunk and hit somebody, there are charges for that. Being drunk doesn't change anything. Bullshit to appease whiny special interest groups. "What about the children?" FUCK THEM!

      --


      If you don't say anything, you won't be called on to repeat it. -- Calvin Coolidge
    94. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by bberens · · Score: 1

      First of all, calling me comrade is the complete opposite of the insult you were trying to make. Secondly I don't mind helping people with a real physical or mental disorder. However, if you rape or kill someone then fuck you you're getting shot and I'm sending a bill for the bullet to your family. Holding you indefinitely is a waste of resources.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    95. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not more than "US$1.65 trillion lawsuit, based on US$150,000 for each of 11 million songs downloaded between June to October 2006".

      Since we are soon in June 2007, we can adjust that to a nice round US$3 Trillions

    96. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Intron · · Score: 1

      If society doesn't value my time, why should it value his? If we follow your logic, then we should put him in jail for life.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    97. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by maxume · · Score: 1

      ?? Putting him in prison costs upwards of $25,000 a year. Making him document his finances to parole officer and occasionally checking that he isn't running a massive spam network costs...less than that, with the added benefit that he can work at McDonald's or whatever.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    98. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by dufachi · · Score: 1

      No. 65 years is not excessive. If they should charge him on a separate charge for each spam mail he sent, it'd be significantly more.

      I hope part of his punishment is that he is not allowed to ever own any type of internet capable device for the rest of his life.

      --
      -Kinsey
    99. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Intron · · Score: 1

      Why are you counting the prison costs if you don't count the spam costs? Do you think ISPs pay nothing for disk space, bandwidth, payroll for time spent cleaning up hacked systems? You also believe that spammers wouldn't lie? You are naive.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    100. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Are you drunk? I'm simply making the hand waving suggestion that there are cheaper ways to keep a spammer from spamming(so the costs don't count if he isn't spamming see?) than throwing him in prison.

      It's actually quite a bit like the drug war, for each one you catch, another one is thrilled to step into his place. In such a situation, enforcement doesn't really accomplish anything(ooh, we took 10% of the product off the street, now the junkies are *really* desperate, with spam, prices might go up a bit, but I doubt it).

      Do I think a spammer would cheat and steal and lie? Sure. Do I think it is worth the time and money to keep him in a cage? Nope. Take away his profit and his equipment each time you catch him, and at least it makes it expensive for him to play the game, without spending money on his room and board.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    101. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Intron · · Score: 1

      What do you think prisons are for? They aren't some expensive luxury, they're the cheapest way that we have found to prevent criminals from continuing to commit crimes. If it were possible to do it some cheaper way, we would be doing it. You seem to think that a guy who is used to stealing thousands of dollars a week from suckers will tamely work at McDonalds as long as we have a big nasty parole officer check up on him every two weeks?

      And you call me drunk?

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    102. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Prisons are entrenched. Any argument that they are the cheapest is going to have a strong circular component.

      Taking away equipment and checking network activity several times a year would drastically increase costs for the spammer, with much lower costs to society than locking him up. Making him pay a big fine(like all his liquid assets) makes it way less profitable.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    103. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Intron · · Score: 1

      Who is doing this "taking away" "checking" and "making him"? He can get new computer equipment in 30 minutes and how will you find it? How will you find "all his liquid assets"? You think he listed spam earnings on his 1040, maybe? You think he signs up with ISPs using his own credit card? Are you going to assign a team of detectives to him?

      There's a reason Florida has so many spammers, state law says you can't take their house. These guys are used to being sued by the people they've defrauded.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    104. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by bberens · · Score: 1

      I think you ought to research the crime rate in Singapore today where deterrence seems to be working just fine.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    105. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by maxume · · Score: 1

      I can conceive of one agent dealing with about one new spammer a month; that's a lot of prison money. No one is doing much enforcement at the moment, that can change. It would suck to lose fancy cars and the like.

      I'm not a fan of spam, and I don't think these guys should be let off scot free, but I also don't think that putting the top 10, 100 or even 1000 spammers in prison is going to have much of a long term impact on the amount of spam I receive, so I want the battle to be as cheap as possible, in terms of dollars per spam not sent, and I see equipment seizure(*after a trial*, no cross over of the bullshit property confiscation(much of it is legit, but not all of it) over in drug land) and fines as a cheap way to make the become-a-spammer decision less attractive.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    106. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by adminstring · · Score: 1

      The ethicist Jonathan Glover has written what some consider to be the definitive paper on committing multiple small crimes:

      http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/resources_ug/ EDU/Jonathan%20Glover.pdf

      Like the parent post says, you have to add up the harmful effects of each crime (and Glover continues, you need to divide it by the number of people participating in the action - in this case the viagra merchants and so forth) to see what the person's total culpability is.

      --
      My truck is like a series of tubes.
    107. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Which society do you think we have more in common with? 19th century england or 21st century singapore? I'm inclined to believe the former and as such it is a better indicator of how effective it is then singapore.

    108. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by phantomlord · · Score: 1

      Are 10 rapes worse than 1 murder? A rape is something the victim will be scarred with the rest of their life. Sure, they're alive but their relationships (present and future) are certain to suffer, they'll have a hard time trusting people, they might live the rest of their life holed up wondering who is going to get them next. Identity theft may not physically violate you but it can ruin the chances of you buying a house, financing an addition to your home for a new child your wife is already pregnant with, starting a business or even getting your next job... It can haunt you for years and some things may haunt you for the rest of your life (like losing your shot at your dream home). This guy didn't screw up just one life and deny their family members and friends something, this guy screwed up hundreds of lives and the families of those people as well. If you're going to get the same punishment whether or not you commit 1 crime or 100 of the same crimes, what is to stop you from doing it over and over again? If that serial rapist only gets 4 years for the first rape, were the other 9 victims less victimized so they don't count? If he rapes one, goes to jail for 4 years, gets out and rapes another, does he get off scott free since he already served time for raping someone in the past?

      This guy messed up the credit of hundreds of people, defrauded thousands of people, cost thousands, if not millions, of dollars worth of damage and expenses to various computers, servers and networks out there. He's hardly a guy who has the potential to get 65 years for a speeding ticket.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    109. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      65 years is the total of the maximum punishments for all the crimes he has commited. For example, let us say a man is accused of rape and murder, with rape carrying a minimum punishment of 3 years and maximum of 10 years, and murder 7 years and 20 years. The media in their infinite wisdom would report that as "if convicted, so-and-so is facing a maximum sentence of 30 years" (20 + 10) whereas in reality the judge would take several factors into consideration and sentence him to 3 years for rape and 7 for murder, both sentences running concurrently. This would mean he's effectively spend only a maximum of 7 years in jail, and with good conduct etc. he might be free and back in circulation in 4 years or so.

    110. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by Tom · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that all of Robert Soloway's crimes aggregated is worse then the taking of one single life? Please tell me I'm wrong. Which comparison operator do you use?

      You are comparing things that are different. It is only because there is a limited number of responses (fines and jail time, essentially) that they must be made comparable on some scale. Which is a longwinded way of saying: I don't think you can equate it on an ethical level, which is what you're trying to do.

      On a judicial level, yes that is what I am saying. Many small crimes can add up to more than one large crime.
      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    111. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by asninn · · Score: 1

      You're a sick, disgusting piece of shit. And flamebait mods be damned, I'm not gonna post this anonymously.

      --
      butter the donkey
    112. Re:Is 65 years excessive? by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      Yes and no.

      If he does not lose all the money he made spamming, then no. He needs to be deprived of his ill gotten gains. Life in prison would do that effectively.

      If they can find out how much he has made, and confiscate it all, as well as enough to hit his initial value hard (the deterrent part of the punishment) then he need only serve a year or two and come out poor, with a federal injunction against ever using the internet again.

  3. Well, it's a start. by AltGrendel · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Only a couple of... oh, lets say... thousand "Spam Kings" to go.

    Minimum.

    --
    The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination

    - Douglas Adams

    1. Re:Well, it's a start. by 4e617474 · · Score: 1

      Yes, spam seems to have a lot of kings to arrest. Here's a classic from 2005. [detnews.com]In addition to ruling as king, he also served as Poster Boy. A real Renaissance spammer.

      --
      Finally modding someone offtopic when they rant about what "Begging the Question" means: priceless.
  4. Thank Goodness by ReidMaynard · · Score: 5, Funny

    Todo List:
    [x] Eliminate SPAM From Internet
    [ ] Bring peace to Middle East
    [ ] Make $1,000,000,000

    That's one less thing for me to do now...

    --
    -- www.globaltics.net

    Political discussion for a new world

    1. Re:Thank Goodness by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Funny

      I can help you with that last one. You see, my uncle died recently and he was really rich, but I'm having some trouble getting the money out of the country..............

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Thank Goodness by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I can help you with the middle one, you see, I was digging around and there was this really large iron shell I found, inside there seems to be a warm, glowing material giving some people around here radiation poisoning. I think you could use it... to bring absolute peace to the Middle East, or you know, make a plot for a really bad movie.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    3. Re:Thank Goodness by spood · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, by trying to help him with the last one, you've made it so he has to go back and do #1 again.

      --
      ---- Just another spud server.
  5. ... the flipside by Speare · · Score: 1

    If convicted as charged, Soloway will face a minimum sentence of 1 year suspended, plus time served in county lockup, plus 40 hours community service. Or something useless like that.

    When it comes right down to it, do you really have confidence that a judge and/or jury will impose 65 years of incarceration for sending penis pill emails? (Yes, I know there is more to the charges than that.) Kenneth Lay was only facing 20~30 years if he didn't appeal the judgement to a higher power.

    --
    [ .sig file not found ]
    1. Re:... the flipside by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      When it comes right down to it, do you really have confidence that a judge and/or jury will impose 65 years of incarceration for sending penis pill emails?

      Frankly I don't think he deserves it. OTH Kevin Mitnick was banned from using computers for a long time. Maybe something similar should happen here, along with a proportionate sentence.

    2. Re:... the flipside by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      Well, because of the botnet thing...yes, if the prosecutors are any good. Invading other people's computers for nefarious purpose is more serious than just sending spam.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    3. Re:... the flipside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are news reports that prosecutors will work to have him forfeit the money he earned from spam (770K) as it was obtained illegally. I would settle for that.

      But it would be nice for him to experience everything prison has to offer.

  6. and the bad news is by v1 · · Score: 1

    ok, that's 1 down. 12,832 to go.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  7. More on Soloway.. by Dynamoo · · Score: 5, Informative
    Soloway also has close ties to other arch-spammers Alex Polyakov and Leo Kuvayev. Between those three there is a substantial involvement in fraud, money laundering and even child pornography. It's hard to say who is responsible for what.. but I betcha that the Russians are running scared that Soloway will really start to talk. I've documented this connection a couple of times in the past (see here and here.)

    There's plenty of evidence around to nail Soloway for a long, long time.. but to be honest he's not even the worst spammer out there. I suspect the possibility of a plea bargain is quite likely, so that international law enforcement can get to the even bigger fish.

    --
    Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
    1. Re:More on Soloway.. by magarity · · Score: 1

      I betcha that the Russians are running scared that Soloway will really start to talk
       
      And I bet that as long as they stay in Russia they really don't care except to be a little happier that a major competitor is out of the picture.

    2. Re:More on Soloway.. by grommit · · Score: 1

      Running scared? You don't know the Russian mafia very well do you? I'm betting they're working out how to get one of their hitmen in the same jail cell as Soloway.

    3. Re:More on Soloway.. by blueZhift · · Score: 1

      Running scared? You don't know the Russian mafia very well do you? I'm betting they're working out how to get one of their hitmen in the same jail cell as Soloway.

      You bet they are! They'd better have some Geiger counters handy, if you know what I mean!

    4. Re:More on Soloway.. by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      I betcha that the Russians are running scared that Soloway will really start to talk. Oh well, expect to see Polonium-210 on the prison menu sometime soon, then.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    5. Re:More on Soloway.. by ch-chuck · · Score: 1

      arch-spammers

      Its starting to feel like living in a Gibson novel..

      --
      try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
  8. Sweet. I propose another arrest. by wazzzup · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Can we then arrest someone at Microsoft who was responsible for making it so easy to create bots? In my opinion, Windows (and thus Microsoft) is an equal partner in the generation of spam we get today.

    I'm kidding about the arrest part but it sure would be nice if Microsoft was called into the spotlight and at least publicly embarrassed for it's key role in spam production. Enough so that even my mom and dad (who think Windows is great) understand the malfeasance done by Windows' pathetic security record.

    1. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah, and while you're at it, why don't you arrest all linux developers since all that spam probably passed through servers running linux. THE COMPUTER/SOFTWARE/NETWORK IS A TOOL!!! Would you blame General Motors for Paris Hilton driving around drunk because they make it too easy for someone to start a car while intoxicated?

    2. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by Lt.Hawkins · · Score: 1

      then also call to task the designer of the SMTP protocol as well, for the horrendous security there that allows forged headers to be passed around.

      Oh, wait, there is no security, yet no ones calling for their heads.

      Punitive action based on the abuse of a system should go to the abuser, not those who's systems they abuse, whether you're talking about spammers and Windows and SMTP, or a 5 year old kid who's getting abused by his parents. You don't fault the kid, or the baseball bat he's getting hit with.

      --
      -- My Sig is a P228.
    3. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      While I do agree that software manufacturers, as well as the manufacturers of any product, have a responsibility to their customers to correct problems with the products that they sold them, I would like to play devil's advocate a little and come to their defense on certain issues.

      1) While it might be a little late, Microsoft really has stepped up their security practices. Automatic updates, all of the improvements in XP Service Pack 2 including the firewall, security center etc. Can things be better ? Of course. There's always room for improvement. Should Microsoft have acted sooner ? Probably, but they have smartened up and gone to great lengths to secure Windows. Also, keep in mind that while they've taken action to prevent newer features and software from being installed on "pirated" copies of Windows, they have not disabled security updates. So say whatever you want about their motives, they clearly decided that securing people's machines was in everyone's best interests and didn't follow through with their bully tactics to try and get people to pay money to secure their systems.

      2) Windows was conceived, designed and implemented when the Internet was in it's infancy. That doesn't really excuse XP, but you should cut them at least some slack for 95/98/ME. Windows' purpose was to make computing easy for individual users. Networking and all of the security concerns that come with it were an afterthought. Though by the time XP was released there definitely should have been more of an emphasis on security IMO. I can't really excuse them for that one. But as I said in point #1, at least they are taking steps even if it is too late.

      3) This one is getting really old but it's still a point that I feel needs to be taken into consideration. Windows has the market share and while I would agree with any argument to the fact that *nix is more secure by design, that doesn't mean that if everyone were running Mac or *nix that botnets would simply not exist. That would be a specious argument as no one can claim it with complete certainty. There's no doubt that virus writers would have to be smarter. There may be way less security issues. But so long as there is profit involved in compromising systems and turning them into zombies there will be people who find ways. I'm willing to argue that there will always be clueless users who will opt not to install security updates out of laziness and/or ignorance. In other words, the argument we've all heard countless times before: Microsoft gets a lot of attention because that's where the profit is. If you're going to compromise systems for profit would it make sense to target 10% of the desktop population or 90% (those numbers are purely figurative and pulled out of thin air but the point is clear I hope) ?

      BTW - I'm typing this on a Linux box.

    4. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      But as I said in point #1, at least they are taking steps even if it is too late.

      For all the times I hit the preview button I didn't catch that one. I meant to word it as "even if it is a little late". It is never TOO late to step up security.

    5. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Can we then arrest someone at Microsoft who was responsible for making it so easy to create bots?
      Absolutely not. Contrary to popular SlashDot opinion, it's actually very difficult to get the security down for a several hundred million line application (the largest in human history.)

      but it sure would be nice if Microsoft was called into the spotlight
      My local TV news bitches about MS security on a weekly basis. Frankly, I'm pretty tired of hearing about it. Viruses were around before MS was the dominant OS vendor. There were two points at my life in which I saw a significant change in virus activity: first, when I exposed myself to BBSes, then later, when I exposed myself to the internet.

      The real culprit here is other people.
      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    6. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I hate to defend MS, but they couldn't avoid that. It was bound to happen, and will happen with any computer system that has a sizable market share. If anything, blame the users who want nothing but MS systems.

      It would be exactly the same with Unix based systems. Yes, I'm leaning that far out of the window, it would be essentially the same with any Linux of any flavor you may pick. The reason is simple: 99% of malware today requires user interaction. The user has to click on some trojan package to kick things off. This would work essentially the same way in Unix. Yes, he could not install drivers and he would have a hard time escalating privileges to install a trojan to work for all users.

      Given that the average home user only has one user, this is not a severe limitation.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 1

      >Windows was conceived, designed and implemented when the Internet was in it's infancy.

      I will be generous. Very generous, and say that Windows was conceived in 1985. That is more than a decade after the Internet was created. FidoNet , Compuserve, MCIMail, and other networks were also around.

      >but you should cut them at least some slack for 95/98/ME.

      The only slack that they should be cut is a slip by the mohel.

      >Networking and all of the security concerns that come with it were an afterthought.

      The only way to fix windows is to replace it with BSD.

      > at least they are taking steps even if it is too late.

      Except that Vista is more insecure than both XP and Win2K.
      What Microsoft is doing is making cosmetic changes that increase the perception of security, whilst demolishing the actual security.

      Amber

      --
      Wind Beneath Thy Wings
    8. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 1

      Why not go all the way back to the source root of the problem and throw Al Gore in jail.

      --
      The Internet is generally stupid
    9. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes because we know it is always possible for 1 developer to predict how 1,000,000 hackers could possibly abuse his code ahead of time. They come equiped with crystal balls I guess

    10. Re:Sweet. I propose another arrest. by Handlarn · · Score: 1

      Windows may be insecure and all that, but they are hardly to blame any more than a car manufacturer is to blame for drunk drivings or hit and runs.

  9. Now I'll buy penis enlargement pills... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    and send them to his jail mates.

    1. Re:Now I'll buy penis enlargement pills... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I don't know... Is that punishment too stiff?

    2. Re:Now I'll buy penis enlargement pills... by CelticWhisper · · Score: 1

      Yeah, after all, he's already doing hard time.

      --
      Help protect civil rights from abuse by the TSA - visit TSA News Blog.
      http://www.tsanewsblog.com
  10. Add 1nches! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hopefully, he'll get to find out if those penis enlargement schemes he helped deliver really worked.

  11. Robot Subway Arrested by aussie_a · · Score: 1

    I thought this was going to be about some robot arrested on the subway :(

  12. Ohhhh No! by chris_cob · · Score: 1

    How will I find out how to get my little blue pills at a discounted price now!!! OR what about how to gain another 1-2 inches!!!

    This is truly a black day

  13. Always remember... by d3m0nCr4t · · Score: 1

    Robert Soloway shot first.

  14. Re:A crime? by imsabbel · · Score: 1

    For the same reason its illegal to fuck your children (or do anything else that illegal):
    At one point, society felt disgusted about it. Enough so that laws are created to punish it.

    --
    HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  15. I just wanted to point out by spamking · · Score: 1

    that I am in no way shape or form associated with Robert Soloway.

    Is this the stiffest penalty a spammer has ever received?

    Thank you. We now return you to your regular /. programming.

    1. Re:I just wanted to point out by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 1

      that I am in no way shape or form associated with Robert Soloway.
      For that matter, I've never seen the television show called Firefly.

      Is this the stiffest penalty a spammer has ever received?
      He hasn't received anything yet, wait until he is actually sentenced to start comparing penalties. Additionally, as others have pointed out the sentence is for a whole host of other crimes apart from just spamming.
    2. Re:I just wanted to point out by spamking · · Score: 1

      He hasn't received anything yet, wait until he is actually sentenced to start comparing penalties.

      I realize that, but I'm still curious about the penalties for similar incidents.

      Additionally, as others have pointed out the sentence is for a whole host of other crimes apart from just spamming.

      Yep, I read those comments as well.

    3. Re:I just wanted to point out by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Given that he hasn't received a penalty yet, I'm willing to guess "no." The harshest penalty I'm aware of for a spammer was the seven year, 3.5 year minimum term with $16.4 million fine issued by Elliot Spitzer/NY to Howard Carmack (the "Buffalo Spammer".) However, this isn't exactly something I follow, so there may be something more severe elsewhere.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    4. Re:I just wanted to point out by Alioth · · Score: 1

      It'll certainly be a "stiff" sentence when his cell-mate's knob is rammed up his jacksy...

  16. I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    *65* years? That seems way over the top. Why can't laws just reflect some reason in the usa?

    Yes, sure...he did more then just spam. But even murderers often come off with less then 65 years, so is spam, impersonating people, using botnets, etc. *really* worse than murdering people?

    People should get a grip.

    I'm all for laws against spam and all the rest of it, but hell, 5 years + a considerable fine is more than enough.

    --
    --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    1. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by JordanL · · Score: 1

      Murders affect several people severely and one person terminally. Depending on a few factors, a single one can get you the death penalty.

      His crimes affected literally hundreds of millions of people, and cost untold billions to counteract.

      65 years is too long? Fuck that. Lock him up and throw away the key.

    2. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      Well, his punishment is correct. It's the time it takes to delete a mail multiplied with the number of mails he send.

    3. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by The+Evil+Couch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hate that arguement.

      The problem isn't that the punishment for non-murder crimes is too high, it's that all too often murderers get off without a life imprisonment or capital punishment. Especially if they manage to wheel and deal their way down to manslaughter or something similar.

    4. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 65 years is the MAX. How often do people get the max sentence?

    5. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by ps236 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But, this was no way a 'one off' crime, done in the heat of passion etc.

      His crimes were well planned, and considered and over an extended period of time. He explicitly chose to do them.

      They affected millions of people. OK, maybe it's difficult to quantify the damage, but if you think how much time, money and effort has been spent on fighting people like him (all those spam filter programs written and bought). There's also all the extra bandwidth used which has probably increased the costs of internet access for everyone to compensate. Never mind all the resources (electricity, time, Internet fees) that he stole from the people unwittingly on his botnets. Then there's the fraudulent nature of much of the spam as well.

      If anything, I think the fine should be in the millions or tens of millions rather than quarter of a million, and possibly 30-40 years in prison, but it does need to be considerable. This wasn't just someone who misguidedly sent out a few spam messages one weekend - it's a calculating career spammer, fraudster and computer hijacker.

      If nothing else, he should be used as an example, and he's got no-one else to blame but himself for it.

      I have far more sympathy for someone who killed someone in a 'crime of passion' than for this man!

    6. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      *65* years? That seems way over the top. Why can't laws just reflect some reason in the usa?
      Don't put so much trust in the legal comprehension of your fellow slashdotter. 65 years is the number you get when you look at the maximum sentence for every single thing he's accused of, and then add them up. This virtually never happens in court. Much more likely is that the court will pick the worst penalty, set it near its maximum term, and make him serve most of that with the other penalties set concurrent.

      Consecutive sentences are exceedingly rare in this country, outside of violent crime. We teach our jurisprudents to be very, very careful about using that particular hammer, and almost every state has an automatic investigation of any judge who uses more than a certain amount of consecutive sentencing.

      I very much expect the spammer to be sentenced to 10-12 years for the fraud, with a potential early release around five years. That's quite reasonable - this kind of behavior can cost people their jobs (a spammer almost killed an ISP I worked at once.) Remember, we don't just punish for the bad things people do; we also punish for the risks they put other people at, even when nothing bad happens. That's why you lose your license for speeding, even if you didn't crash.
      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    7. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      I do not agree with your underlaying premise (that punishment is too low), but I do agree that it would be more consistent if the relative severity of it was in accordance with even more tough laws for more severe crimes. (As it would be (also) consistent if it lowered the spam-punishment and the rest stayed the same).

      However, the argument was about the inconsistency, and thus you do not hate it, but rather you agree with me that it doesn't make any sense. (Though we might be proponents of solving that inconsistency in deifferent ways).

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    8. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      "They affected millions of people. OK, maybe it's difficult to quantify the damage, but if you think how much time, money and effort has been spent on fighting people like him (all those spam filter programs written and bought). There's also all the extra bandwidth used which has probably increased the costs of internet access for everyone to compensate. Never mind all the resources (electricity, time, Internet fees) that he stole from the people unwittingly on his botnets. Then there's the fraudulent nature of much of the spam as well."

      First of all, you can't put all the costs combatting all spammers on this spammer alone. That would be equal to claiming all costs of anti-breaking&entering tools and other theft-prevention and security systems shops and buildings employ are considered the integral cost of thief catched. In that case, a thief should get hundreds of years and billions of damages.

      No, a thief is only sentenced for what he did, and so should a spammer. Therefor, it is irrelevant how much costs ISPs have done to combat spammers; the spammer himself should be sentenced for the actual damages HE did.

      Furthermore, even if one would argue the damage he did was worse then killing people, there is still something fishy with the inconsistency. Fraudulent CEO's have often caused millions of damages, and caused hardship for thousands...I can't remember anyone of those getting 65 years... If the reason for the though law would be what you claim it is, it should be valid for others too, yet it isn't.

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    9. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by csplinter · · Score: 1

      There is a reason people talk about how rapist shouldn't be shot in the face because murderers get off easier than that. It is because if rapist get shot in the face and murderers got out in a few years it would be a huge incentive to commit a rape and murder rather than just a rape. What doesn't make since is not taking in to account all the reasons we put people in prisons, in hopes that we can be consistent with our criminals. We put people in prison to rehabilitate them, punish them, and to convince people who are not criminals that they don't want to end up like that guy in prison. When you think about that last reason you have to consider other factors beyond how heinous a crime is. What I'm getting at is spammers are hard to catch, it's easy to spam and, it's very profitable. To balance the equation and make spamming no longer such an attractive deal you have to be very harsh and, personally I have no problem putting putting spammers in prison twice as long as murderers if that's what it takes to make people respect the risk they would be taking to start a spamming business.

    10. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Two points. First, it's not uncommon for sentences to be served concurrently rather than consecutively. Second, identity theft and fraud can thoroughly destroy your life, leaving you with problems to deal with for years, perhaps even decades. Sure, it's better than being dead, but I suspect you'd think differently every now and then if you were going through it yourself.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    11. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      "To balance the equation and make spamming no longer such an attractive deal you have to be very harsh and, personally I have no problem putting putting spammers in prison twice as long as murderers if that's what it takes to make people respect the risk they would be taking to start a spamming business."

      That argument would be more convincing if it would be demonstrated to be true. I mean, that's one of the exact same arguments proponents of the deathpenalty use to justify it; "others will not do it if they know they'll get capital punishment for it".

      However, again and again, scientific research has demonstrated there is NO correlation between the two. This means, the "how tougher we make it, how less crime we'll get" is just bullocks. Just as you have in economics a diminuishing return, so do you have with punishments. Sure, if you would only give a one-day sentence to a spammer making millions out of it, there would not be any incentive to stop, not would it be a deterent at all. But, I assure you, if people are not detered by a sentence of 5 year inmprisonment and a fine of millions, they won't be by 50 neither.

      I do not believe that, in actuality, it gives any more benefit in that regard to push it up to 65 years. One could still argue that it would be a good thing to saveguard society from recedivists, perhaps, but to the detriment of being humane. (Of course, that is a subjective stance, the worth of being humane to prisoners is relative, as I've noted by another debate I had on /. with someone who even wanted all beggers to be put in jail for long times).

      I just want to point out that the "the tougher, the less crime" is not a valid argument above a certain treshold.

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    12. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "*65* years? That seems way over the top. Why can't laws just reflect some reason in the usa?"

      "Reason?" What if I told you that his actions single-handedly required an extra 65 man-years to fix? Certainly not far-fetched: that's about 3 minutes for 10 million people, erasing spam, updating filters, installing firewalls, reinstalling the operating system, and that's before we get into the felonies he's charged with, such as wire fraud. And what about the hours worked by his victims to pay for the new security software they need?

      He's easily caused 65 man-years of life to be wasted cleaning up problems he deliberately caused in an effort to profit off of it. What rational reason is there that he himself should not be subjected to the same loss of his finite time on this planet?

    13. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do understand that after five years he'll be out doing the exact same thing?

      If it's a murderer showing remorse, then I say "Sure, let him out after serving his punishment".

      But a spammer who is defiant and shows no inclination to stop doing whatever he's doing? No, put him in jail for life. He's not making anyone happy running around free.

    14. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by snark23 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Is spam worse than murder?

      Yes. YES.

      Your average murderer kills ONE person.

      A spammer wastes the time of MILLIONS of people, and disrupts the lives of thousands who fall victim to scams.

      Those seconds add up to countless lives in aggregate.

      Spammers undermine people's trust in society in a way that isolated murders cannot. Spam is a calculated and rational attack on the rules of society --- the product of sociopathic cost/benefit analysis --- whereas murder is almost always driven by passion or desperation or stupidity, at least in the first world where law enforcement is strong.

      Don't compare spam to murder... compare it to genocide.

    15. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by pscottdv · · Score: 1

      I say we give him just one *tiny* little pin prick for each of the spam messages he sent out. The pricks should be delivered at the same rate as the spam was delivered.

      --

      this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice

    16. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      "Don't compare spam to murder... compare it to genocide."

      Ermmm...right. My I ask for a second opinion on that, say, from the Jews?

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    17. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by HappyEngineer · · Score: 1

      I agree with you except for the line "he should be used as an example". I don't believe that anyone should ever be punished more in order to send a signal to others. Punish people for what they do.

      In fact, with the exception of the criminally insane (eg. serial killers), I'm not sure if it's ever a good idea to put someone in jail for more than 30 years. It doesn't matter what the crime is. You're basically just punishing a different person after all that time. People are never the same as they were 30 years ago. Keeping people in jail for more than 30 years is just a waste of money.

    18. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      But even murderers often come off with less then 65 years, so is spam, impersonating people, using botnets, etc. *really* worse than murdering people?

      If I murder somebody, I have taken from them perhaps 50 years of life, of which perhaps 35 years would be waking time.

      If I spam 50,000,000 people, I have taken from each of them five seconds of waking life, assuming all of them Just Hit Delete.

      Five seconds times fifty million people equals twenty-five million seconds. That's over nine months right there. After about 45 such spam runs, I've taken life equivalent to one murder.

      How many times did this guy spam? How many cumulative seconds has he taken from the population at large? How many people could he in fact have murdered and done less damage to humanity? Quite a few, I think.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    19. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't compare spam to murder... compare it to genocide.

      Were you attempting to make the stupidest comment in this thread, or did it just pop out? *boggles*

      Inconveniencing a lot of people should not be compared to taking the life of a person or persons. Giving 100,000 people paper cuts is not the same thing as murdering someone. It's a collective annoyance, and yes, the doer should be punished, but taking multiple inconveniences and saying they add up to one gross injustice is simply... wrong. They're two separate scales.

      Yes, distributed crime should be considered to be more serious than crimes done to a few victims--when the crimes are of the same scale. But personally, I generally put the value of people's lives above that of the bandwidth of companies and the time it takes a country to comb through its inboxes.

      The man did nasty things and screwed over people's lives, and he should pay for them. I'd be delighted to bankrupt the bastard and dump him in prison for several years and place restrictions on his use of various technologies upon his release. However, let's not equate removing money and comforts from others with the removal of their very lives. I think that's a pretty fundamental difference.

    20. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      Very well put. To say I almost missed your post because you're an AC and I usually don't read that (they are below my /. viewpoints-treshold)

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    21. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      May In refer you to this post from an AC who said it better than me:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=236785&thresho ld=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=19346145

      The problem I have with the 'he wasted so and so many seconds per person, and add them all up and you come to the same'...is that it's not really the same, because it's on a totally different level.

      If that (your reasoning) would really be true, it would mean that, for instance, if you *had* to choose between a person being killed and millions of people having to waste a minute of their time, one would choose the latter, because if one would add it all up, it would be more than the equivalent of a lifetime. Would you really, *really* make such a decision? Somehow, it seems absurd.

      At least for me. My moral compass would indicate that I'd prefer to not have a person killed than to save millions (or even billions) a few minutes of their time from being wasted. In my ethical view, wasting time of the many *does not* equal the death of even one. And frankly, I have difficulty understanding how one could conclude the opposite.

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    22. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by asninn · · Score: 1

      Hear, hear!

      --
      butter the donkey
    23. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by asninn · · Score: 1

      Um, because our justice systems aren't based on "an eye for an eye" anymore?

      --
      butter the donkey
    24. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by snark23 · · Score: 1


      > Were you attempting to make the stupidest comment in this thread, or did it just pop out? *boggles*

      Okay, I admit to being trollish. Still, it would be nice to discuss something here just once without being personally attacked. (Yeah, I know, it's Slashdot...)

      My point was this: Spam is a crime of scale. Murder, when scaled, is genocide.

      I'm not saying spam is as BAD as genocide. Obviously it's not. Obviously they're qualitatively different.

      But I honestly do think that wasting millions of people's time and money is worse than killing a single person. The impact to society is MUCH higher, but nobody understands that because it's too hard to measure. You're free to disagree with me --- I know it's not a popular viewpoint, especially in the West where the rights of an individual are valued above the rights of society --- but can we please not devolve to ad-hominem sniping?

      And, because this is Slashdot, I'll end with a bad analogy:

          Society is like a house. Murder is akin to a window being broken: It's a highly visible problem that needs to be fixed, but a window broken on the first floor doesn't affect the second. Spam is like termites; you can't even see it, but it's slowly eating away the structure.

    25. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      Well, since it IS slashdot, and it IS a bad analogy, you know what comes next, don't you? ;-)

      "Society is like a house. Murder is akin to a window being broken: It's a highly visible problem that needs to be fixed, but a window broken on the first floor doesn't affect the second. Spam is like termites; you can't even see it, but it's slowly eating away the structure."

      I'll take what the analogy stands for and view it in an ethical way according to Kants' categorical imperatif.

      1)If you murder all people, you are left with no society anymore, therefor, society as a whole can not survive

      2)If you spam all people, you are left with a society that wastes more time (or can't use email anymore), therefor, society as a whole can survive

      If the premise is, that society is more important than the individual (debatable on itself), it's clear 'no society' is far worse than a 'society without email'. Thus, the impact, even on society, would be worse in the former case, hence, the act of murdering should be considered worse too.

      Now, while I find Kants' reasoning a very good tool in evaluating ethical topics, one could also consider other means to decide the ethics of something.

      Say, you claim *one* murder is as worse as 10000000 spams that waste peoples' time....

      Ok...if you really believe that, it would mean that, if you *had* to choose between someone being killed, and 11000000 spams being send, you would rather opt for the former. Somehow, I don't see that as the most moral choice. Ofcourse, one could be an egotistical bastard, and say: go ahead! But then I would ask: would you really say the same if YOU were the person to be killed?

      This question is not without importance, because one CAN make an ethical case where the death of one man is deemed less important than, say, the deaths of 11000000. And I would agree with that...*even* if I was the person to be killed.

      Now, why is there this difference? Because, frankly, spam and murder are simply not comparable, nomatter how much spam it is. They are on a completely different level. And that's why there will be very few people who *really* think their lives are worth less than 11000000 spam-messages in their mailbox. If people don't think it is as important, neither should society. And thus, it shouldn't act as if it is neither.

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    26. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by snark23 · · Score: 1

      Ah, rational discourse. The subthread is saved!

      > 2)If you spam all people, you are left with a society that wastes more time (or can't use email anymore), therefor, society as a whole can survive

      I should have clarified from the start that I'm using a very broad definition of spam. Namely, "to waste the time of many people", e.g., not necessarily through the medium of email.

      Under the narrower email-only definition, I quite agree with you. But, in the broader sense...

      Spam may be applied by varying degrees, whereas murder is boolean (It is nonsensical to "moderately kill" someone, but moderate spamming is less bad than heavy spamming). So for the categorical imperative, we crank the spam to 100% of time wasted for 100% of people, and arrive at:

          2) If you continuously spam all people, you are left with a society that wastes ALL time. Therefore, society as a whole cannot survive; it suffocates.

      > Ok...if you really believe that, it would mean that, if you *had* to choose between someone being killed, and 11000000 spams being send, you would
      > rather opt for the former. Somehow, I don't see that as the most moral choice. Ofcourse, one could be an egotistical bastard, and say: go ahead!
      > But then I would ask: would you really say the same if YOU were the person to be killed?

      I do believe that there's some point where a volume of spam is worse than a single death. I'm not going to try to figure out if it's 1000 spams or 10e9, though. I don't know.

      > Now, why is there this difference? Because, frankly, spam and murder are simply not comparable, nomatter how much spam it is. They are on a completely different level.

      This dilemma occurs any time human life is weighed against a more tangible (and less sacred) resource. Nobody wants to make this decision, for the exact reason you give: It's immoral to put a price on life, whether that price be measured in time, money, oil, or bananas**.

      That's why black-and-white morality is an inadequate framework for real life. Sometimes you need to compare apples and oranges.

      People avoid explicitly pricing life, but the decision is made quietly and implicitly by market and social forces every day. Just a few examples:

            --> Automobile speed limits: Reducing highway speed to 10mph would save lives. So why don't we do it? :: Life versus time

            --> Airport security: Running checked baggage through decompression prevents pressure-triggered bombs from making it onto a plane. Israel does this. Why don't we? It's too expensive. :: Life versus money

            --> Pharmaceutical testing: More extensive testing would definitely save lives :: Life versus time and money

      Are these things immoral? Maybe, but no single person is responsible for the decision. Given that, I think it's okay to come out and say, "Here is how we are going to price life, and this is why..." for a particular situation. These decisions could be better made by clear reasoning, but the status quo is to avoid thinking about it and let whatever happens happen.

      ** bananas? Sadly, not a joke at all... c.f. recently uncovered links between Chiquita and Colombian paramilitary groups: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/2 3/1354205

    27. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      "Ah, rational discourse."

      Always! ;-)

      "The subthread is saved!"

      joy!

      "2) If you continuously spam all people, you are left with a society that wastes ALL time. Therefore, society as a whole cannot survive; it suffocates."

      I do see a logical fallacy there; that would only be true if *all* time is always 100% spend on spam. But this can not be (at least not inherently). For instance, if your mail (or other post) would consist 100% out of spam, you would lose LESS time, because you didn't need to shift through the mail to look for non-spam mail. (Or, alternatively, you could just stop using that manner of communication altogether). Also, the proportion of ones' life that can possibly come in contact with spam, is limited, and never 100%, thus, the time a person has, can never be wasted 100% on that spam.

      So, there is a way for society to deal with getting 100% spam *without* wasting 100% time. There is no way for society to deal with 100% deaths and continue in *any* way.

      So, murder is still worse than spam. Only if one would argue that 100% spam is inherently linked to 100% waste of *all* time they have (time necessary for the society to exist), would your argument be true.

      Ofcourse, you partly skip this problem by saying spam is not unsollicited bulk email but 'the wasting of time of many people'. I think this definition is too broad to be useful, and actually a bit misleading.

      Let's be honest here: the guy will not get 65 years for 'wasting time', but for sending spam (among other things). The issue here (certainly the legal issue) is about sending the spam, and spam IS defined as unsollicited bulk email, *not* as 'wasting time'.

      In fact, if 'wasting time' *on itself* would be deemed punishable with 65 years, then it might be those that read the spam that may be put in jail. I mean, *who* exactly is wasting his time? Not the spammer, but the guy reading or shifting through it.

      Granted, you were smart enough to add 'many people'....but even then, I know some managers in companies who have two meetings a day and waste the time of everyone else at the meeting, so maybe they should get 30 years in prison as well? ;-)

      As one can see, the definition 'wasting time for many people' may be a bit TOO broad, if one would actually apply it.

      "That's why black-and-white morality is an inadequate framework for real life. Sometimes you need to compare apples and oranges."

      The problem is, when comparing oranges and apples, WHAT kind of measurement (to compare) does one take? With equal or similar goods, you can compare the same traits. With completely different objects, all comparison is arbitrary. I can find wasting time, even huge amounts of it, less important then a murder. But I mean, all that is subjective. Just the same with trying to determine what 'wasted time' means. How can you prove that somebody wouldn't have wasted his time on something else then spam, if he didn't had gotten spam, for instance? If you're at work and a few babes come along, and all the male populace looks at them, instead of working, didn't those women just waste their time? The men themselves may think; no. The other women may think: yes. Maybe also the employer.

      I mean, if you and your colleges get distracted by some students outside the schools every day, who play loud music even if you already told them it is disturbing, shouldn't they get 65 years for it? Is playing that music also worse then killing someone? If the union strikes, and hundreds, nay, thousands of automobilists have to waste their time for hours and hours while waiting for the roads to clear up, are the courts going to sentence the union-members to 65 years? Nope. So...why do it for a spammer, but not the rest, if wasting time is the determining factor?

      I think we can agree that, with that definition of 'spam', soon everybody could get 65 years.

      You yourself said that murder is boolean...maybe you should take the boolean factor as a me

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
    28. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by snark23 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I do have a broad definition of spam. :-)

      I would say that the defining characteristic of "wasting someone else's time" is that it's involuntary. For instance, you aren't wasting my time here, because I'm voluntarily wasting my own time. (and in a free society, we can't hold people liable for wasting their own time... it is theirs to waste)

      Maybe a better term would be "time theft"

      > I mean, if you and your colleges get distracted by some students outside the schools every day,
      > who play loud music even if you already told them it is disturbing, shouldn't they get 65 years...

      If 1,000,000 colleagues are distracted.... then, yes, they should get 65 years.
      That's the thing about spam that makes it different from all of these other crimes, including murder: it takes a trivially larger effort to exponentially increase the volume.

      I think it's entirely reasonable for these guys to get life in prison without parole. The same goes for Enron's Skilling and Lay; indeed, the essence of the crime is the same: stealing a little bit from a lot of people in bad faith.

      The murder comparison is really a digression, and everybody is correct that murder is really fundamentally different than spam. My point is really just that people do not take spam seriously because it doesn't impact any one person very much; but the aggregate cost to society is staggering, and that should be considered. Our court system is not well-equipped to assess the magnitude of a crime that affects millions.

    29. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by csplinter · · Score: 1

      That argument would be more convincing if it would be demonstrated to be true. I mean, that's one of the exact same arguments proponents of the deathpenalty use to justify it


      You make an interesting point however, I would argue that most capital offences are crimes of passion. The motivation for crimes like murder are very different from the motivation for crimes like spamming. People spam because it seems logical to do so. Most murders are committed based on illogical thinking. It would come as no surprise to me if I saw proof that doubling the sentence for murder did little to reduce the crime. I think that most American spammers weigh the risk versus benefit ratio of their actions thoroughly. You should realize, by no means do I suggest an outrageously long sentence like 65 years. My point is simply that I would have no problem with the sentence for spamming exceeding the sentence for murder if that was proven to be an effective deterrent and, that sentencing guidelines should not be thought up solely based on the heinousness of a crime for the sake of "consistency." For the record I oppose the death penalty and think it's barbaric and, whoever said beggars should be jailed ought to be beaten with sticks. :-)
    30. Re:I hate spam as much as the next guy, but... by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

      Well, I did say you need a treshold, of course.

      But honestly, even if they are all rational (greedy) bastards who calculate the benefits versus the cost, wouldn't a 5 year imprisonment and a fine of millions not be enough? I mean, I can't imagine them saying: "ok, my spamming is worth 5 years and millions in fines" (which you would have if you only gave a week and a fine of 100 bucks, obviously).

      What I'm saying is, at some point it really doesn't matter anymore. One can differ at what level that would be, 5 years, 10... but I think one must relise that, say, if they're not deterred with 50 years, they won't be deterred by 65. I think we can agree on the priniple, thus. And according to me, purely looking at the benefits versus costs, 5 years and a fine of millions should be enough to deter them, at least in a pure 'calculated' economical sense.

      With one parameter to be yet determined: the chance of getting cought.

      And really, if you want such practises to be stopped, I think that variable is far more important than going from 5 years to 65. It just doesn't work that way, IMHO. A 65 year sentence if the chance they get you remains , say, 5%, is a pretty worthless deterent - the extra years just don't make much difference anymore. A 5 year sentence will be more than enough, however, if the chance is 50%.

      So, instead of making laws higher and higher as a deterent, they should rather focus on nailing them down.

      "My point is simply that I would have no problem with the sentence for spamming exceeding the sentence for murder if that was proven to be an effective deterrent and, that sentencing guidelines should not be thought up solely based on the heinousness of a crime for the sake of "consistency.""

      I rather value consistency. Mostly, when laws are not consistent (or consistently applied) it breeds arbitrary judgement and unfairness - or simply doesn't make sense. But anyway, there have been comparisons between countries with high penalties for theft, and those with low penalties..but also with theft, no correlation could be found. This indicates the 'thougher' stance is not only flwaed for crimes of passion (unless you coinsider theft to be that). I don't quite see why spam would suddenly react well to such a mechanism, when it fails with other crimes. (Mind you, they did warn it was difficult to make ferm conclusions, because there were many variables; such as economical and cultural differences, etc. But I still think a strong link would have shown some correlation by now).

      So, I *really* doubt the deterrent-factor is going to work, solely based on getting higher punishments. Of course, even being consistent, it DOES depend on the premise you start with, in regard to the purpose of jails. Is it punishment in 'an eye for an eye' fashion? Is the goal rehabilitation into society as a model citizen? Is it to saveguard society?

      Most will chose the second and third reason. And in that case, one might wonder if even those nasty spammers do not deserve a second chance, after 5 years in prison and their belongings being confiscated? So, I can agree with you to a certain point, where you argue crimes of passion should be less severly punished then, say, calculated murder (and certainly serial killings), because their chance of recidivism is lower than those others...but I still think the 'henious' factor is still an element nevertheless. This is, because I truelly believe a life taken remains far worse then time wasted on spam, EVEN if you put that time all together. It just seems such an artificial, silly thing to calculate it that way. It would be as if you wouild put a man in prison for as long as for murder, because he broke bones in 3 people, and if you put all the broken bones together, a person could die from them.

      With the difference you don't die from spam. I understand the sentiment that says: and now it is enough, spam must stop! and the notion of hitting them hard....but when you look at it a bit more rationally (adn with empathy) you realise it sho

      --
      --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
  17. It all goes to show by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

    That spammers are the scum of the earth. They're criminals who should have been stopped long ago before they were allowed to get this devious.

    Also those who buy from spammers are encouraging crime.

  18. Re:A crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason this is a crime is because spam is not only annoying, but its a huge tax on network resources, from the bandwidth for sending it to the disk space to store it on servers.

  19. Re:A crime? by Aladrin · · Score: 1

    That's not really a good example... Having sex with your children is harmful to them and the human race both, as it creates mental issues and greatly increases the possibility of genetic defects in offspring. I'd hardly say 'disgust' is the only reason that law exists.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  20. Re:A crime? by simong · · Score: 3, Informative

    In this case it's about the illegal use of resources - botnets work by hacking PCs and using them to send mail via their Internet connections, which in most countries would be punishable under their equivalent of the UK Wireless Telegraphy Act (actually I think the 2006 revision changed that, but the principle is still there) irrespective of the content in the spam. Also, the vast percentage of spam promotes illegal or semi-illegal products or is a front for scams. Yes, anyone who responds to spam is a fool, but in the end, if they're conned out of anything than a crime has been committed somewhere.

  21. I hate spammers... by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

    ... as much as the next guy but am I the only one that feels like the jail sentence is way too high & the fine way too low?

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:I hate spammers... by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Well, the jail sentence hasn't actually been set. And, actually, in a good system, yes, the maximum possible sentence should be too high - that way, the correct range of sentencing is possible. His minimum possible sentence assuming conviction is six months. If this system is running correctly, you should feel that's too short.

      Ideally, you want the minimum to be too low, and the maximum too high; that way the right number is always available to the judge. It seems to me that that's exactly what's going on here.

      As far as the fine, given that fraud is involved, the judge can basically do whatever the hell they want, as long as there's a justifying argument. Considering that this is the same circuit court that handed a $16.4m fine to Howard Carmack, who was at that time believed to have profited about $14m from his deeds, I think maybe you're jumping the gun a little bit on worrying the fine will be too low.

      All they did was arrest the spammer. Nothing's been decided yet.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
  22. Soloway Mocks MS Suit - Will he mock again? by newsact · · Score: 5, Informative
    Spamhaus Project has a rather long list of Soloway's recorded history. He mocks every attempt to nail him such us the lawsuit from Microsoft http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/evidence.lasso?rokso _id=ROK5164 We will probably do the same again...

    "I've been in business for over 10 years with the best accountants in the world, and lawyers in all 50 states that know how to run my business legally and protect me from all lawsuits that come my way.. not a concern.. I just pay them a few hours of my work and they take care of the entire cases for me..."
    1. Re:Soloway Mocks MS Suit - Will he mock again? by Phantom+Gremlin · · Score: 1

      Soloway is making a serious mistake if he thinks his current predicament is nothing to worry about. We're talking federal prosecution here, not a civil suit.

      Many years ago Don Lancaster wrote a great book, and one of the quotes in it was: "Don't mess with the eagle". His point was that the federal government has *enormous* resources. You can be in *serious* trouble if someone in the US government doesn't like you.

  23. Tyranny by poptones · · Score: 1

    And THAT is the problem - reactionary responses from one issue to the next, never mind if they are based on logic or reason. The media hypes the most titillating stories to the point of makign the "problem" appear far worse than it is, society reacts like a herd of blathering sheep and politicians, afraid to lead with logic and reason that they may be removed from their lofty posts, bow down to their blatherings.

    "At one point" society has felt disgusted about many things that are none of society's business.

    This is why it's called the tyranny of the majority, my friend.

    Not defending spammers (or baby rapists), but essentially calling any laws just and reasonable simply because "society put them there" is anathema to liberty. We were warned fo this hundreds of years ago, but the truth is that whole "logic and reason" thing really gets in the way of absolute government and corporate control, so few opportunities exist today to be reminded of such...

  24. Get real, people by djupedal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Every single person here has been affected by this guy - some more than others, but all negatively. This is not the time to turn the other cheek, because every time you deleted one of his emails, you were doing just that.

    Now is the time for him to get the short/pointy end of the stick...the stick that he sharpened and used on all of us. He took time away from each of us that we will never get back. Talking about fair this or fair that in terms of years behind bars....are you serious? Wake up. This guy leached your life and given the opportunity, he would not hesitate to do it again.

    It is only fair to take his time away from him until he has no more.

  25. Anyone else think we have our priorities mixed? by StringBlade · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If convicted as charged, Soloway will face a maximum sentence of more than 65 years in prison and a fine of 250,000 dollars.

    However, if you infringe on someone's copyright in the U.S. then your maximum fine is $250,000 per infringement not to mention a possible 5 year jail sentence as well.

    Clearly spam's a problem, but not as big of a problem as Napster and Limewire - after all, the Spam King was making money and Napster was just giving away music!

    Lesson: If you're going to be a nuisance to people and corporations, make sure you make lots of money doing it so your punishment isn't as severe for proving you're a good capitalistic American.

    --
    ...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
    1. Re:Anyone else think we have our priorities mixed? by spyrochaete · · Score: 1

      More like:

      Lesson: If you're going to be a nuisance then annoy the proletariat, not millionaires.

    2. Re:Anyone else think we have our priorities mixed? by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Wait, lemme see if I can straighten this out. You think spammers make less money than filesharing companies, you think a quarter million dollars per infringement for a guy who's got potentially thousands of infringements is a small penalty, and you think that companies like Napster and Limewire, whose owners never served jail time or paid fines for their theft, are being treated more harshly than spammers, who are actually going to jail and paying fines in the eight digits?

      One of us is very confused here.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    3. Re:Anyone else think we have our priorities mixed? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      More like: Lesson: If you want to be a nuisance, be it to the people rather than the corporations. First of all, it's more profitable (a few million compared to zip), second, you will thusly have better lawyers than your opponents (opposed to this being in reverse if you piss off the corps), and finally, in case you get caught, your fine will be pocket money rather than existance ruining.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Anyone else think we have our priorities mixed? by StringBlade · · Score: 1
      First off, you have my view completely backwards (possibly due to subtle and hard-to-detect sarcasm in my above post) except the part about Napster and Limewire -- yes they're treated more (financially at least) harshly.

      I'm suggesting that Soloway will not get his 65 year maximum (probably only 5 years - same as a copyright infringement of a single song) and his maximum fine is $250,000 (6 digits, I don't know where you got 8 digits from).

      By contrast, Napster, whose owners did not make (much if any) money on their original service were slapped with a $250,000 maximum per song they offered for download. Obviously they plead down on that one as well and managed to get out of any jail time.

      The point being, spammers who make actual money from their illegal (criminal) tactics are not treated nearly has financially harshly as someone who commits copyright infringement illegally (civil up to a point, then criminal). If Soloway were fined $500 per every piece of spam he sent out, it might be a fair recompense for the waste of bandwidth of his victims as well as collecting on his ill-gotten gains.

      Fair recompense for someone sharing music would be to make that person pay for all the songs they shared at the current market price, possibly with a slight fee in addition for "lost revenue", but $250,000 per song is not even close to any real lost revenue - $5 may be. At least the 5 year maximum sentence is appropriate for mass infringement (we're talking millions of songs) because at that point it's considered a criminal act (with criminal intentions) but it's not so severe that this person is a menace to society to be locked away for a very long time -- 2 years and the denial of Internet access at home from then on would probably be even more appropriate for a maximum.

      --
      ...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
    5. Re:Anyone else think we have our priorities mixed? by asninn · · Score: 1

      Actually, Napster wasn't giving away music, it was helping others give away music.

      --
      butter the donkey
  26. Sentence is too severe. by Lethyos · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I hate spam as much as the next guy. That being said, 65 years in jail and a quarter million in fines (even assuming he gets half of that) is just too much. This is the sort of sentence you should impose on murderers, not electronic irritants who use a system designed specifically to allow anyone to said pretty much anything to whoever they please. In short: hurt him, but not too much.

    --
    Why bother.
    1. Re:Sentence is too severe. by spyrochaete · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A quarter million bucks is peanuts for this guy. He made his fortune by hijacking people's personal computers and corporate and public email servers. He is responsible for reducing people's trust in computers and telecommunication and is partly responsible for the billions of dollars worth of preventive maintenance and lost productivity in corporations worldwide.

      I agree that 65 years would be overkill, but I'm sure this is the maximum penalty. Then again, it's important to make an example of this guy to remove the glamour from the prospect of becoming a new spam king.

      In my opinion this guy should lose every penny he made from spam, should go to jail for 10 years, and be banned from using computers for life.

    2. Re:Sentence is too severe. by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      electronic irritants

      What part of identity theft, bank fraud, wire fraud and illegally running malware on thousands of people's computers are you foggy on? Would you consider yourself merely irritated if everything sent from your domain was suddenly blacklisted? Irritated if one of his partners' phishing schemes netted a friend or family member's financial data, and their credit rating was completely trashed, and their bank account emptied? Are his ties to Russian mob operations (notoriously, those specialising in child pr0n) - people who actually KILL other rivals over things like botnet control - just somewhere below the irritant threshold for you? People who enable, finance, provide tech services to, and otherwise associate with murderers like that - and make their money while fraudulantly using others' network resources and lie about their identities while blasting out fraudulant comms - they deserve EXACTLY what they get for swimming in those waters. It's not like he sat down and just started sending out some e-mail, here. He's toxic, and willfully screwing with millions of people's lives. He should get long, hard time, and every penny he's stolen should go towards the cost of keeping him fed in lockup.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    3. Re:Sentence is too severe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too severe?

      This asshat should be sent to the gulag to rot for the rest of the 21st century. 65 years isn't nearly long enough. And the fine - someone dropped a decimal point or two. He should be fined to the point of utter ruin - wiped out and saddled with a national-debt sized fine that cannot be discharged. We need the modern day equivalent of his head on a stick at the gates. In short: hurt him, hurt him so he has no possibility of ever recovering.

  27. Fullest extent of the law by jzuska · · Score: 1

    I sure hope that sentence is carried out, all of it. In fact I think torture should be leagalized for this. Can we call him a terrorist and transfer him to gitmo. Come on, you know McCain would agree.

    1. Re:Fullest extent of the law by sys_mast · · Score: 1

      parent is just flame bait.......actually....wait a second, it is cyber terrorism, think of all the wasted CPU cycles as well as how many of his bots were on government PCs. I guess parent is right. It should be labeled terrorism.

      OK, so I don't really think this is terrorism, but if a kid in school making a video game can be called one, this guy sure can!

      --
      Those who can, do.
  28. Re:A crime? by geonetix · · Score: 1

    And having issues with the size of your penis isn't harmful to a lot of men reading spam?

  29. Re:A crime? by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

    Well if you dont know maybe we should get Senator Ted 'Tubes' Stevens to give you some edumacation on the internet tubes. Because when they're clogged with ads for penis enlargement, breast enlargement and viagra it dont let your race horse or lottery bets go through.

    --
    09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
    +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
  30. Hmm by p4rri11iz3r · · Score: 0

    they called him "Spam King." Something tells me he'll have a different name in prison...
    --
    "Now I'm seriously serious!" - Serious Sam
    1. Re:Hmm by adickerson0 · · Score: 0

      Low quality, greasy meat in THE CAN...SPAM seems to fit him quite well. As a cocky rich playboy, I am sure is going to have a good time with his fellow inmates.

  31. Oblig. by Karganeth · · Score: 1

    In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

    1. Re:Oblig. by MagicBox · · Score: 1

      hahaha, what kind of time do you have to come up with this shit...it's funny though.....

      --

      The phaomnneil pweor of the hmuan mnid. Fcuknig amzanig eh!
  32. Re:A crime? by Obsi · · Score: 0

    The thing trolls don't get is that if the tubes are clogged with spam, there's not enough space left in said tubes for their trolls.

  33. Re:Is 65 years excessive? - modded flamebait? by Xiph1980 · · Score: 1

    I fail to see how this is a flamebait. Sure, the opinion of the poster might not be the same as the opinion of the moderator, but it's definately not flamebait.
    Seems more posts in this topic have been similarly moderated. Is this perhaps a sensitive subjects for some slashdot visitors?

    --
    Manuals are your last resort only
  34. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  35. Much greetings to you Respected Sirs, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    My name is Fiveo Twoo Nineo, Barrister-at-law, practising in Nigeria. As you might know, the notorious Spam King was arrested recently. He left behind a sum of 25,000,000 USD in trust with me and since he is going to rot in jail for 65 years, I am planning to steal it with your help. Please contact me on learning about my plan to share 40% of that money with you.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Much greetings to you Respected Sirs, by MedicinalMan · · Score: 1

      Gee wheez my lucky day,
      Here's my bank routing number, just deposit it all there: 32824422. In case that doesn't work see the attached file with the social security numbers for my whole family.

      Thanks a bunch :)

  36. Warning, Princess Bride Reference... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To the pain!

  37. Food code by xororand · · Score: 2, Funny

    I suggest that he should get a good bunch of artifical spam mails everyday while only one of it contains the code for the daily meals. Thus he would experience what it's like to get V1AG|)_A and 03M Software offers every day ;)

    1. Re:Food code by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 1

      I suggest that he should get a good bunch of artifical spam mails everyday while only one of it contains the code for the daily meals. Thus he would experience what it's like to get V1AG|)_A and 03M Software offers every day ;) Better yet, filter out all the viagra, cialis and penis enlargement spams and sent them to his cellmate Bubba. "Better watch out you don't drop those packets in the showere there, Bob..."
  38. Yes by InvisiBill · · Score: 1
    From TFS:

    Soloway is accused of using botnets to disguise where e-mail originated and of forging return addresses of real people or businesses for his mass mailings.
  39. Don't... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

    Todo List:
    [x] Eliminate SPAM From Internet
    [ ] Bring peace to Middle East
    [ ] Make $1,000,000,000 I can help you with that last one. You see, my uncle died recently and he was really rich, but I'm having some trouble getting the money out of the country.............. ...hold your breath. He won't be getting past item #2 on his list any time soon.
    --
    Only to idiots, are orders laws.
    -- Henning von Tresckow
  40. Oh great, another public charge... by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    He should also have to pay for his incarceration.. at $40k/yr, his fine will only keep him in jail for about 6 years before you and me have to start paying for his life of luxury in a minimum security resort, complete with Cable TV and probably Internet Access. Hell, he'll probably just continue his business from prison.

  41. Mortimer. We're back. by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

    On top of that fine, I want him to pay me 1.= for each mail I got from him.

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
  42. Re:A crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why exactly? Because there are laws in placed against it. That's the only thing that makes ANYTHING a crime.

    If you meant to ask why do people think spam is worth criminalizing, start over and try again.

  43. What the hell is with the sentence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've seen proven rapists get less of a sentence than this man.

    Pisses me off.

  44. If convicted... by rnturn · · Score: 1

    ... I'd rather he received a $65 fine and 250,000 years in prison. That way, if he got a reduced sentence for good behaviour, he might still be in the big house for 125,000 years.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    1. Re:If convicted... by CautionaryX · · Score: 1

      I can see the movie documenting this 150 years from now:

      Scooby-Doo and the Ghost of the Spam King.

  45. Punishment relative to the crime by Bardez · · Score: 1

    "Soloway will face a maximum sentence of more than 65 years in prison and a fine of 250,000 dollars"

    Honestly, I think this is one of the only places in US law where punishment is close to the crime. $250,000 fine? I don't think it's high ENOUGH, considering how many people this guy has (in)directly pissed off. But then, I can get the same damn fine for burning a DVD (but only 5 years in the slammer, but let's face it: once you're in, even when you get out you're fucked).

    --
    Perception is the thin dividing line between reality and fiction.
    1. Re:Punishment relative to the crime by Creepy · · Score: 1

      I thought software piracy was $250k and 10 years (maximum), but I'm probably out of date with the laws. I don't think burning a DVD can get you that - the criminal fine is for people that then sell them at a profit. The only person I know arrested for non-selling software piracy got community service, a $500 fine and plea-bargained his way out of jail time (though I think he got 10 years of probation). This guy is mostly in violation of "hacking" type crimes which have been given more prison time and not much monetary fines as of late (probably because most hackers are poor). He probably made millions off of those spam mailings, so I don't have much sympathy for him rotting in prison for it.

      Incidentally, the first thing that came to mind when I read this was

      "He's nothin but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worm! Hangin's too good for him. Burnin's too good for him! He should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!"
                  - Hanover Fist (from Heavy Metal)

  46. It must be said.... by josquint · · Score: 1

    How dare you judge me? I mean what are you? You think you're some kind of, like, angel here? No, you're just this penny-stealing... wanna-be criminal... man.

    Yeah, well, that may be. But at least I never slept with Lumbergh.

  47. 250k seems low, 65 years seems high by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    A lot of people are talking about how 65 years seems like a lot. Perhaps, but 250k fine seems low. How much money did he make off his scamming? I got the impression that these types of activities are highly lucrative, so I hope the fines are proportional to his profits. It seems to me I keep hearing stories about companies making money off of some illegal practice, then getting fines that are less than the profit they made. Could that be the case here?

    1. Re:250k seems low, 65 years seems high by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      This is what I've been thinking. I think the fine should be (everything he has) + $1.

    2. Re:250k seems low, 65 years seems high by Anonymous+Curmudgeon · · Score: 1

      Criminal penalties don't work that way. If you want to soak him for everything he owns, you follow up the criminal conviction with a class-action civil case.

  48. Dear Sir, by sam_handelman · · Score: 1

    I am a successful internet entrepeneur, wrongly imprisoned by my corrupt government. I have been recommended to you by friends who trust greatly in your honor and discretion in my troubled time.

      I have US$ 65 million in hidden accounts which I need to remove from the country. If you will aid me in this I will split half of it with you, in recognition of your good will and generosity.

      To make the transfer I will need your name, social security number, address, bank routing number, account number, personal identification number and passwords. With these, I can move the money into your bank accounts.

    Thank you,
    Robert Soloway

    --
    The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
    1. Re:Dear Sir, by Aliriza · · Score: 1

      Hey count me in , should I pay the lawyer fees and the transfer costs or is it all free. Owww how lucky I am.Yes yes count me in again.

  49. The Criminal Gene by Glothar · · Score: 1

    The mass of criminality is 7/10ths genetic...

    Sorry, but I doubt that. Despite all efforts, no one has found any gene or set of genes that causes criminal behavior. The best we can really say is that prisons seem to have a greater concentration of XYY males, however, the difference is much smaller than early reports claimed and the number of XYY males is still a small minority of inmates.

    Perhaps you were just making generalizations. Let's be specific. If you look at a criminal and see that their parents were criminals, as were their grandparents, it's silly to claim that criminality is genetic. There is something much stronger that all of them share: They were raised by their parents. Being a criminal tends to put one in a situation where their children will not have receive the same social teaching as the rest of the world. Most criminals are not financially stable, and thus their children tend to be similarly financially unstable. Until anyone is able to find any sort of real correlation between any genotype and increased criminality, claiming that there is a genetic component is nothing more than an attempt to avoid the problem.

    The point here: I think your "7/10th genetic" is actually "7/10th socio-economic". Of course, many people hate hearing that because it means that there are things that can be done to help. If it's genetic, you can just shrug and walk away. If it's socio-economic, it means that it can be fixed if you're willing to give up on a small portion of your greed. Better funding for police helps, but not as much as better funding for the public schools (which rich people everywhere hate... why invest in something that can't turn a profit?), public libraries, parks, art programs. That is your smart pill. It already exists, but its something that rich people have to be willing to pay for.

  50. The King is dead, long live The King! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering Sanford Wallace was considered 'The Spam King' and now this guy was called 'The Spam King', all this looks like is someone new shall become The King.

    1. Re:The King is dead, long live The King! by Aliriza · · Score: 1

      Lol The King is dead long live the new King Spam is dead long live email marketing and opt-in lists. they are the same

  51. Too severe punishment? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Actually, the first thing I saw was the quarter million bucks threatened (not even a verdict yet, that's the MAXIMUM amount of money they might take from him), I nodded my head and realized I'm in the wrong biz.

    250k bucks isn't even close to the damage he caused. And I'm not even talking about the poor morons that fell for the spam and actually ordered something. I mean companies that had to install spam filters and pay for them, I mean people who spend a good deal of their online time weeding out the junk. And if you are, like we are here, paying for every MB trickling through your line, you actually also have a direct financial blow, not just the "imaginary" loss of time, which not so few could also turn into money by working overtime.

    I mean, be honest. How much time every day do you spend deleting spam? Probably not so much, being a geek you should have a good spam filter or it's time to return your geek membership card. How much time do you think the average Joe Clueless wastes that way? How much company time is being wasted every single day only in the US because people have to weed out spam because they HAVE TO read their mail, whether they want or not?

    That's direct damage to your country's productivity.

    250k bucks is laughable in comparison.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  52. send him to China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they know what to do with people like him

  53. Spammer Robot by Gojaroo · · Score: 1

    I initially misread this as Spammer Robot.

  54. Spam by certel · · Score: 1

    Or, you can be like me and block most of the ip blocks in China. That reduces spam by about 60%. =)

    1. Re:Spam by bmk67 · · Score: 1

      You can get most of the remaining 40% by blocking all US IP blocks.

      HTH. HAND.

  55. Proportion by syylk · · Score: 2, Informative

    To whoever thinks that 65 years is a bit too much:

    Think about time.

    Think about the time you spend/spent 1) deleting spam, 2) writing rules to filter spam, 3) learning, writing, installing, configuring bayesian apps.

    Add to that the time spent by your POP/IMAP/SMTP/Exchange server to receive spam and forward it to you the one that passed thru the aforementioned filters.

    Think about the total time you spent dealing with spam, in one form or another.

    Then multiply that time for all the people on Earth that face the same problem as you do - from simple users to ISP admins - and have to think and implement solutions - from "ignore and delete" to complex auto-training systems.

    65 years suddenly appear a shard of a split second, compared to the total wasted time.

  56. Hey Soloway! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't drop the soap.... bitch.

  57. A Punishment to Fit the Crime? by GaryPatterson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bear with me for a bit...

    Every time a spam message gets through my filters, I suffer a brief twinge of irritation. I've been receiving spam in varying amounts since the mid-90s, and I wonder what the cumulative effect of all those little irritants would be.

    I also wonder what the cumulative effect of the millions of people he spammed having those little irritations over the years would be. Spread over millions of people and several years it may not seem so bad, but the cumulative effect is that a wave of minor negativity washes over the planet when people like this guy send out spam. Sure it's not the great symbol odegra in a road system, but it's another thing that brings the general happiness of the planet down a jot.

    Maybe the punishment should factor in the number of people he spammed, as a multiplier. Not one to one, but some multiplier.

    It's probably a terrible idea, but then I'd extend anti-spam legislation to all advertising forms if I could. Billboards jostling for that last square centimetre of space seem just as bad as emails written by the mental giants who think that mis-spelling erectile drugs will make me more likely to buy them.

  58. Why not a RICO prosecution? by swb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If there's that much organization involved, why not a RICO prosecution?

    I'm always surprised that they go after these so-called "spam kings" as if they were committing their crimes in a vacuum without the help of other people or other institutions.

    As much as spam seems linked to a much larger world of theft, fraud, money laundering, stock manipulation, and more well-known organized crime I would think that a RICO investigation would be a big help.

    I would also think it would go a long way towards ending the tacit involvement of the legitimate financial and IT community in spam if a few well-placed execs in those industries got nailed along with the rest of them.

    1. Re:Why not a RICO prosecution? by Night+Goat · · Score: 1

      That's a really good idea. I wish I had some mod points. Law enforcement needs to start bringing spam out of the "virtual" world and into the realm that they have more experience prosecuting cases in. I imagine they'd have a much easier time prosecuting a RICO case since there's more of a precedent there.

  59. No-one? by durnurd · · Score: 1

    I don't know about everybody else, but some times, when I wake up in the morning, and open my inbox, I do get a little afraid.

    --
    --Edward Dassmesser
  60. So. . . by nanamin · · Score: 0

    Does this mean I'll be getting less spam? Will there be any noticeable difference?

  61. If Spam is illegal then the Post Office should... by Lorin+Partain · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If sending unsolicited mail to someone is illegal, then the Government's monopoly on first class postal services (aka the US Post Office) should be indicted immediately !! So typical for government prosecutors to go after a guy making a living because what he does is unpopular, yet they reserve the right to fill my mail box full with totally worthless and unwanted (paper wasting as well) real world spam. If the State can't get its own house in order they got no business going after private citizens for the same crime they commit on a daily basis all over American. Oh wait i forget the laws don't apply to politicians or government sacred cows like the Post Office, just you and me, and innovative young men who fulfill a service that is evidently quite in demand and a very profitable business. Now if he has committed some kind of genuine fraud well then fine, he should go to jail for it, but if all this guy has done is send e-mail to people who did not "opt in" well tell me how i can Opt-out of the government monopoly mail service that keeps taking up so much room in my trash can ?

  62. My junk folder is empty, yours? by kamikaze-Tech · · Score: 1

    Normally by this time of day I have dozens of junk emails, but not today. If this scum-bag wasn't doing all of the spam, his arrest sure scared off the others.

    1. Re:My junk folder is empty, yours? by woolio · · Score: 1

      I've also noticed it has been relatively quiet. I wasn't sure if my mail was working or not.

      Although my blacklisted email addresses are still getting pounded a decent amount.

    2. Re:My junk folder is empty, yours? by grimJester · · Score: 1

      Normally by this time of day I have dozens of junk emails, but not today. If this scum-bag wasn't doing all of the spam, his arrest sure scared off the others.

      Just random fluctuations. My score today is 15 in my Hotmail inbox and 5 in my Junk mail folder.

  63. 65 years in prison.... and a fine by infinity314159 · · Score: 1

    Maybe it's just me, but imposing a fine on top of 65 years in prison is like slapping someone who just fell out of a hundred-story building.

  64. accountability by ssintercept · · Score: 0

    he has no qualms about being the spam king. he is unrepentant. rehab?! you gotta be kidding. he does this out of greed. seize all his money and lock him up in a super max prison. screw this guy. he embodies the worst in human nature. it is all about personal accountability...which he does not have.

    --
    "You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."-- Fred Hampton
  65. Not a danger? by woolio · · Score: 1

    The spammer is not a danger to society, just a pain in the arse so an appropriate punishment is a small prison sentence, coupled with a phenomenal fine - e.g. 10 million dollars.

    Well, what if there were 10000 that did exactly what he did. Would they be a danger to society? What if there were 1 Million people sending spam like him? Do we want to live in that kind of society?

    I argue that if we don't want our society being like him, then he is a danger to society.

    1. Re:Not a danger? by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I argue that if we don't want our society being like him, then he is a danger to society.

      I don't want our society to piss all over the floor in public restrooms. If 1 million people did it, the entire restroom would be just be a 2 foot deep pool of piss, forming a yellow river out into the Mall...

      So the jackasses who piss on the floor in public restrooms should be incarcerated for life, because they represent a danger to society?

      Give me a break.

  66. And Why Did This Take So Long? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    And why did it take years to get this guy? It was hardly a secret what he has been doing for so long now.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  67. Missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd like to point out that he was a indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of identity theft, money laundering, and mail, wire, and e-mail fraud. These are real crimes. He wasn't indicted for being a spammer. There's a HUGE difference. But make no doubt about it this is a bad person.

    Additionally, he may get 10 to 20 and he'll serve more like 5 in a Federal Penitentiary (which is nicknamed "Camp Snoopy" for a reason). Trust me on this, he is not going to be excessively punished.

  68. Re:If Spam is illegal then the Post Office should. by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
    Remove your mailbox. Declare to everyone that you have no legal mailing address, living out of hotels. Tell them you do accept Fed Ex packages, currently at X address.

    Get most of your mail online.

    If someone wants to write to you badly enough, they will pony up the Fed Ex fee. Also, if you want to really make it more dificult, you can actually move to a location not served by the US mail, or really live out of hotels.

    P.S. To the rest of the world this may seem a bit extreme, but to your (conclusions drawn from what you wrote) paranoid, government hating mind, it should sound pretty reasonable.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  69. Confused by Icarium · · Score: 1

    I thought a maximum refered to an upper bound - how can more than 65 be a maximum?

    1. Re:Confused by BiOFH · · Score: 1

      *laugh* That was my reaction too. There's a similar one on TV every now and again, "save up to 70% and more!"
      Clearly "maximum" and "up too" mean different things to these people.

      --
      - I am made of meat.
  70. How many unmanned bots does that leave? by BobMcD · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty amazed that no one else has pointed out the risk imposed by all those unmanned bots now up for grabs. Step #1 should certainly be forcing him to silently self-destruct them. But what are the chances our overlords thought of that? No, more likely they're in someone else's hands this very minute...

  71. Re:If Spam is illegal then the Post Office should. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can easily stop junk mail, but most people don't take the time nor diligence to do it. I have stopped all junk mail. If you want to stop receiving junk mail just do what is prescribed on this web site: http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs4-junk.htm. It works.

    Also I receive no spam. This has been over 3 years. How? One I have my own email server and it's at its own domain. But more importantly I can create aliases any and all lists I join that are then forwarded to my real address. That way I can track down where the address is getting poached and/or sold. Then complain and delete that alias. I only give my real email to people I trust. I also make sure that it doesn't get on to any web pages. All of you people with FREE email accounts like gmail, hotmail, yahoo....well you get what you pay for.

  72. Subject by Legion303 · · Score: 1

    This is how I'd like to see his prison term go down:

    "So you're the Spam King, eh? Listen, I spent my rent money on those penis enlargement pills but I can't tell if it worked. Tell me if this feels very big to you."

  73. shame to waste him in court/jail, tho... by swschrad · · Score: 1

    why not bring him around to all computer users for a personal meet-and-greet?

    drive him to the first one, use a wheelbarrow to take him to the second one, pour him in a bucket for the third one..........

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  74. Spammed by the neck until he is dead or off-topic by vorlich · · Score: 1

    To quote Alphonse Karr on the subject of abolishing the death penalty.
    "I am all in favour of ending capital punishment but I would like to call upon our friends the murderers to take the first step."

    --
    Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
  75. I, for one, refuse to believe he's American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone KNOWS all spam comes from China or Korea. His name is probably Robert So Lo Wei or something similar.

  76. Re:If Spam is illegal then the Post Office should. by ruffnsc · · Score: 1

    Well of course if the government charged 42 cents for each email spammers sent.....Spammer's would either (i) be broke (ii) be their best friend and named to the head of FEMA or something.

  77. Bureau of Behavior Modification by RareButSeriousSideEf · · Score: 1

    How do you staff the Bureau of Behavior Modification? The consequences for getting a bad apple in there scare the shit out of me. It's all well and good when wise and benevolent hypothetical people just like you or me are running it. But what happens when they're handpicked by Dick Cheney or Hillary Clinton or [insert favorite Machiavellian villain here]?

    I'm not saying the prison system doesn't need an overhaul, nor that we shouldn't have a comprehensive sanity check on punishments relative to offenses and in relation to each other. I also get that sentencing is intrinsically intended -- at least in part -- to produce changes in the offender's future behavior.

    When people say "behavior modification" though, they're not usually talking about aggregate studies of sentencing methods versus recidivism rates. They're usually talking about starting down a path that quite probably leads to Clockwork Orange crap down the road. Any power that you grant the government will eventually end up in the hands of people who don't share your political orientation or your ideas about what should and shouldn't constitute crimes. I don't know about you, but I would rather live with high crime rates than have a body of "reconditioning experts" become a fixture of our government.

  78. I'm not quite familiar with that one... by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    "To the pain" means the first thing you lose will be your router below the trunk cable, then your ISDN line below the plug, next your laptop and then your cpu. Your GMail account you keep and I'll tell you why, so that every bounced email of every victim at seeing your spam will be yours to cherish. Every sysadmin who weeps at your approach, every AOLamer who cries out "Dear God, what is that thing?" will show up in your perfect mailbox. That is what "to the pain" means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish email forever.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  79. Punishment Should Fit The Crime by EgoWumpus · · Score: 1

    Do not delude yourself into thinking our Judicial system is designed to rehabilitate anyone. It's designed to make others out there too afraid to start a life of crime. And if that doesn't work, well, it's a holding pen. Making him delete a lot of email would, in theory, fit the crime, but really we want the hours back that he stole from us.

    --

    [Ego]out

  80. Re:If Spam is illegal then the Post Office should. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was living in Sweden I got sick of all the unwanted junk I got in my mailbox. The first year I lived there I received four full paper bags worth of the junk. Fortunately I was pleasantly surprised that there was a solution to the problem. In most apartment buildings, the mailboxes are a slot in the main doors. All it took was a note above my mailbox stating "No advertisement, Please". If you have a note like that then no-one is allowed to "spam" you. Neither the Post office nor independent advertisers.

    I wish that it was that easy with email spam.

  81. Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is great. Now who will be arrested for all of the junk mail in my real mailbox?

  82. Ding Dong - the Witch is dead!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's about time a spammer got nailed. I hope they give him lots of time to think about all those people he inconvenienced and ripped off.

    I hope they donate his equipment to the needy after they stash him in clink-land.
    Minus all that crap spam software he has on it.

    By the way, my spam has significantly reduced. I'm almost able to go through my mail in about 3 hours instead of taking all day.

  83. Re:If Spam is illegal then the Post Office should. by hf256 · · Score: 1

    To opt-out of receiving snail junk mail check out http://www.junkbusters.com/junkmail.html.

  84. Ouch by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    The pricks should be delivered at the same rate as the spam was delivered.

    NPR was saying 1 Million to 14Billion per day were various estimates.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  85. Re:If Spam is illegal then the Post Office should. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Paranoid ? Tell me what exactly is paranoid about not wanting the US Post Office to shove pounds of unwanted paper a week into the tiny mail box they give us, and force us to use ? i mean really, what ever happened to door to door service anyway ? Privatize it yesterday !! I mean do we really think that UPS, and Fed Ex, can't deliver first class mail as well ? I guess i would be paranoid if i feared the mail man when he came, but of course he never comes to the door anymore. No I am not paranoid just pissed about yet another example of Government hypocrisy and lack of a real choice in the matter.

    P.S. I don't hate the government, I just think its evil. I am in good company too btw. (Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Samuel Adams, Andrew Jackson, to name a few who thought government was a necessary evil at best)

  86. He has stolen well over one lifetime's worth by br0d · · Score: 1

    of time from millions of people. If you were to add up all the individual charges for each incident of spamming, the total additive penalty would be well over life in prison. Yeah, he does belong in prison for life. Sentences are not just for the severity of crime, they are also for repetition and scale of the offense. Imagine this...if you took the total amount of suffering he has created, and concentrated it all into one single victim, how severe would that victim's torment be?

  87. Unusual prison phenomenon by heretic108 · · Score: 1

    Newspapers will soon be reporting a strange phenomenon - parolees from a certain prison having unexplainably large penises and unexplainably firm erections, unexplainable bank accounts with millions of dollars, and unexplainably high-income jobs working from home for offshore employers.

    --
    -- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
  88. 65 years is great by deets · · Score: 1

    Can we give him 65 years, please? For those who say murders and rapists get less, then let's all agree to a mandatory death penalty for rape and murder and then give him 65 years.

  89. The best way to punish a spammer by l33tPr0digy · · Score: 1

    Make him give up every cent he got through spam to charities and as a condition of his probation/parole, don't allow him to own or use a PC.

  90. bigger fine and jail time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1 - send him to the big house with the murderers

    2 - millions in fines, so he is broke

    3 - 900 years of jail time

    4 - revoke all computer rights (see mitnik's great rehab)

    5 - must reveal everything he has done, methods, techniques, botnets, programmers involved, etc.... with daily "discussions" with feds

  91. You cannot rehabilitate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    someone who harms other people _because_ it benefits themselves; this is a flaw of character that cannot be changed. Put a bullet through his fucking brain.

  92. Far be it from me to defend a spammer ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    If convicted as charged, Soloway will face a maximum sentence of more than 65 years in prison and a fine of 250,000 dollars.

    But, damn ... I guess it's a good thing he didn't murder anyone. He might have gotten a really stiff sentence.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  93. Teach him to spell... by refactored · · Score: 1

    Make him write out by hand v1ag^ and c1al1$ the correct way once for every email he ever sent out with them spelt the wrong way... Or worse, make him actual _take_ the pills his has being trying to flog....while he is in prison of course....then either way the results will be just revenge... And invest all his money in all those exciting "sure thing" stocks...

  94. Yeah, Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the greatest practitioners of the spammer lifestyle ever just "happens" to be named the concatination of "Solo way"! I wonder how he got that Identity.

  95. A sort of Solomon's solution by Mondor · · Score: 1

    Well, I think there is a honest solution to the problem of such spammer.

    Let the judge give him a computer. And let that computer contain 20 000 000 e-mails. And let him delete all this spam while in prison. But that's not all. In these e-mails there will be 170 messages (some of them disguised as spam) deleting each of them means one year of imprisonment. That is - deleting all 170 would lead to 170-years term. So he should decide carefully which message to delete and which do not.

    Once he is done, it's clear to see how many more years he have to be imprisoned. Isn't that a sort of smart solution? :)

  96. State boxing champ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shut up ComicBookGuy, you've got a belly the size of mars and you know it.