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BBC Threatened Over iPlayer Format

greengrass sends us to coverage in The Register of the Open Source Consortium's threatened anti-trust challenge against the BBC over its use of Windows Media format in its on-demand service, iPlayer. From the article: "The OSC will raise a formal complaint with UK broadcast and telecoms watchdog Ofcom next week, and has vowed to take its accusations to the European Competition Commission if domestic regulators do not act. The OSC compared the situation to the European Commission's prosecution of Microsoft over its bundling of Windows Media Player with Windows."

269 comments

  1. Typical by bit+trollent · · Score: 0, Troll

    Is this really your idea of freedom?

    1. Re:Typical by Ravnen · · Score: 1

      Is this really your idea of freedom?
      'Free Software' has nothing to do with freedom, and never has done. It's about promoting a particular software development and distribution ideology, which its supporters prefer.

      The pragmatic wing, i.e. the 'Open Source' movement base their support for open source development on the belief that it will produce a higher quality product, at least in the long run, whereas for the 'Free Software' movement it's a matter of ideology. Richard Stallman and his followers prefer open source software that matches their ideology, even if it's technically inferior to the alternatives.

      Stallman and the 'Free Software' movement are of course entitled to their views, but all the rhetoric about freedom is just a propaganda technique, like the American Cold War practice of treating capitalism and democracy as synonyms, or the Marxist practice of referring to totalitarian socialist states as 'democratic people's republics'.

      At the end of the day, the FOSS advocates make some good (and also some hopelessly poor) arguments, and it's quite interesting to watch the development of the various software camps (proprietary, copyleft, fully open, etc.). The references to 'freedom', however, are just rhetoric, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

    2. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmmkay here we go, from the Free software definition:

      Free software is a matter of the users' _freedom_ to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to _four kinds of freedom_, for the users of the software:

      * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
      * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
      * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
      * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

      Indeed, it has nothing to do at all with freedom, sigh...

    3. Re:Typical by Ravnen · · Score: 1
      You're free to grant all of these rights to users of your software by releasing it into the public domain, without any need at all for the 'Free Software' movement. Indeed, people and institutions were releasing software into the public domain and under minimally restrictive licences well before Richard Stallman started his 'Free Software' movement.

      'Free Software' is about adding restrictions on distribution, to support a particular ideology; it's got nothing to do with freedom at all.

    4. Re:Typical by Dave2+Wickham · · Score: 1

      'Free Software' is about adding restrictions on distribution, to support a particular ideology; it's got nothing to do with freedom at all.

      That is not true. The FSF considers public domain software to be Free Software as well; they don't consider software to be non-Free unless it's (L)GPLd. There are even licences that the FSF considers to be Free, but which aren't GPL compatible - the Apache licence, for instance. See the gnu.org list of licences for more details on individual licences.

      Now, you may argue that the GPL is about "adding restrictions on distribution, to support a particular ideology", but the FSF's concept of Free Software certainly is not.

    5. Re:Typical by Ravnen · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, but what I'm really talking about is the 'Free Software' movement, not what that movement defines as 'Free' software, if you take my point. Public domain, BSD, these were all around before there was any 'Free Software' movement.

  2. Could be worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Copuld be Quicktime. Ugh.

    1. Re:Could be worse... by Goaway · · Score: 1

      You have something against the MPEG-4 standard?

    2. Re:Could be worse... by VorpalEdge · · Score: 1

      Quicktime used to be better known for mpeg-1s, if I remember correctly.

    3. Re:Could be worse... by zero2k · · Score: 1

      Quicktime's biggest use was with proprietary codecs such as Sorenson.

    4. Re:Could be worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You have something against the MPEG-4 standard?"

      No just the quality of the Windows quicktime player!

    5. Re:Could be worse... by Goaway · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then use some other MPEG-4 player.

  3. Other ways of handling it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    challenge against the BBC over its use of Windows Media format in its on-demand service


    How about just "not demanding" it? You are free to "do without" the content... but that's not a concept that today's society understands...

    If no one wants it, it will go away. Otherwise, it also looks like a bunch of whinging.
    1. Re:Other ways of handling it... by TommydCat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It seems that the Beeb is concerned about DRM -- it's easy to validate this argument as a content provider if it is not a free service.

      What choices are out there if the main concern is vendor lock-in? What "open" DRM alternatives exist?

      --
      This comment does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of the author.
    2. Re:Other ways of handling it... by SkunkPussy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that I pay for the content via my TV licence, and I don't really like the idea of paying for a delivery method that is inaccessible to me.

      (ahem posted from IE6 in windows - at work, honest!)

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    3. Re:Other ways of handling it... by KiloByte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What "open" DRM alternatives exist?
      None. The whole point of DRM is to be as closed as possible.
      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    4. Re:Other ways of handling it... by turgid · · Score: 1

      Hear hear. Mod up +About A Thousand insightful.

    5. Re:Other ways of handling it... by couchslug · · Score: 0, Redundant

      As the BBC is funded by the TV tax, it's customers have every reason to "demand" appropriate non-proprietary formats from their government provider.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    6. Re:Other ways of handling it... by NexusTw1n · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't really like the idea of paying for a delivery method that is inaccessible to me.
      You pay the same TV licence regardless of whether you have a radio or freeview decoder.

      Did you complain when BBC3 and radio 6 were transmitted in a format that made it impossible to receive with standard equipment?

      The BBC is a multi format platform. They are not required to deliver all content in a form every single TV owning person can receive. Otherwise everything from RSS feeds, to DAB, to enhanced podcasts to on demand digital weather forcasts are suddenly illegal.

      --
      It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
    7. Re:Other ways of handling it... by EvilMole · · Score: 1

      By the same logic, someone without a DTV box should be complaining to Ofcom about the fact that they BBC is producing channels which are inaccessible to them.

    8. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Applekid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference is that broadcast TV signal is useable by any TV regardless of the brand. Requiring a Microsoft player on a standard run-of-the-mill PC as opposed to a player-agnostic format isn't the same as requiring new equipment for new functionality.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    9. Re:Other ways of handling it... by genmax · · Score: 1

      How about just "not demanding" it? You are free to "do without" the content... Umm, because its a Public Service Broadcaster that is primarily funded by levying a telivision license fee on the public.

      but that's not a concept that today's society understands... Broad generalizations from inaccurate assumptions - I wonder why you posted as an AC.
    10. Re:Other ways of handling it... by LO0G · · Score: 1

      I'm confused. Both HD-DVD and BluRay include Microsoft's VC-1 codec as a manditory-to-implement codec. So any device capable of decoding either of the two high-definition DVD formats is required to include a Microsoft codec. Why is this any different?

      Even MP3 isn't an "open standard" - it's protected by a series of patents that are owned by various corporations (AT&T, Freunhoffer), so would the BBC be precluded from distributing its content via MP3s?

    11. Re:Other ways of handling it... by NexusTw1n · · Score: 1, Informative
      Freeview isn't available to anyone without additional equipment.

      Radios 5 through 7 aren't available on standard radio.

      Radio 1's enhanced podcast broadcasts aren't watchable on Microsoft, Sony, or Creative MP3 players.

      Requiring a Microsoft player on a standard run-of-the-mill PC as opposed to a player-agnostic format
      What is the market share of MS in the UK? 80 - 90% at least? So isn't 'run of the mill' actually, a Microsoft machine? A standard run of the mill TV at the moment doesn't have access to BBC3 and BBC4, does that make freeview illegal?

      Also note the beeb use the Apple version of enhanced podcasts to display images in their radio show podcasts, rather than the Windows Media version, so they are hardly in bed with MS.

      Either we require the BBC to broadcast in a format everyone can view, in which case we are stuck in B&W 5:4 format, or we accept the BBC pushes multimedia to the edge, which means not everything will be viewable by everyone all the time.
      --
      It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
    12. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Encryption usually works on cryptographically sound principles, like not including the key with the ciphertext. Obsfucation is the only reason DRM is at all effective, and that disappears with open source.

    13. Re:Other ways of handling it... by profplump · · Score: 2

      If their goal is prevent people from seeing the content, then PGP/GPG would be a great plan. But their goal is to limit what people who are authorized to see the content can do with it on their own equipment, and that goal is not attainable in any robust system, open or otherwise.

      So yes, open vs. closed may have nothing to do with robustness. But logically sound vs. fallacious seems like a more important factor in selecting a robust design.

    14. Re:Other ways of handling it... by makomk · · Score: 4, Informative

      Freeview is broadcast using DVB-T, an international standard. You can get receivers from a number of different companies from about £30 up (or hard disk based recorders for a bit more), it's built into many high-end TVs, and there are several different available receivers to watch and record it on a PC. Sure, you can't watch it on a normal TV without extra hardware, but it's cheap, probably due to having actual competition.

      The iPlayer, on the other hand, requires you to watch the programs on one piece of software running on one operating system produced and sold (and not cheaply) by a single company. Sure, it's currently, the most common operating system, but the two things are not comparable.

      I'm not sure what the "enhanced podcasts" are. I think they're .m4a files of the stuff already available as MP3 but with added chapter markings and images. I don't see any technical reason why other players couldn't convert them to a format they support, though I'm not sure how many actually have the correct features...

    15. Re:Other ways of handling it... by f8l_0e · · Score: 1
    16. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did you complain when BBC3 and radio 6 were transmitted in a format that made it impossible to receive with standard equipment?

      DAB is an Open standard. If the BBC had declared they would be transmitting BBC 3 or Radio 6 in a Sony proprietary format from now on and everyone would have to buy a Sony receiver, hell yes I'd complain.

    17. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Alarash · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the iPlayer case, the DRM system is implemented, I think, to prevent non-UK citizens (hence not funding the BBC). The content itself would be, I believe, free. I don't mind the DRM in this case. It should be, however, in an open format (just require the BBC player to play it and make it OS-free).

    18. Re:Other ways of handling it... by mormop · · Score: 1

      "A standard run of the mill TV at the moment doesn't have access to BBC3 and BBC4, does that make freeview illegal?"

      Irrelevant. If freeview could only be viewed on one brand of TV or digital converter then the situations would be comparable. The freeview digital broadcast standard is open enough for many chip, TV and box manufacturers to make compliant boxes which encourages competition in the marketplace. Iplayer on the other hand requires you to use Windows (at first) excluding users of other OS's, and you have to remember that the licence fee pays for the programs to be produced. This means that even though I have paid an equal share of the BBC's funds I am banned from viewing the material I have already paid for while the BBC supports supports a monopoly that has been deemed illegal by the EU. Their is value in access to the BBCs archives and not being able to access it will put people off of considering alternatives in the same way that .doc did.

      --
      Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
    19. Re:Other ways of handling it... by pbhj · · Score: 1

      >>> "Either we require the BBC to broadcast in a format everyone can view, in which case we are stuck in B&W 5:4 format, or we accept the BBC pushes multimedia to the edge, which means not everything will be viewable by everyone all the time."

      I know you're being facetious, but anyway, here's right back at y':

      If the broadcast was in colour 4:3 then people using old B&W sets could still see a picture (almost graceful degradation).

      On the main point it's not like the BBC has to include DRM to push "multimedia to the edge". Much of the content is home grown - I helped pay (begrudgingly in the most part) so why not let me view it?

      Wrt what a "run of the mill" machine is - your argument has its merits but you ignore the fact that most of that 80%+ of MS machines will not have the latest OS nor latest Windows Media Player and hence is unlikely to play the latest DRM'ed WMP-only files.

      And what happens when MS decide a year later to upgrade the "BBC" codec via windows update - locking all stored BBC content - and provide the retrograde codec as a backwards compatability fix for £100?

      Oh yeah of course, MS would never screw over it's customers.

    20. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Skapare · · Score: 1

      What choices are out there if the main concern is vendor lock-in? What "open" DRM alternatives exist?

      How about "iPlayer" ... just have BBC write it using good portable programming practices, including strict adherence to standard interfaces, and then it will run on all the major OSes ... BSD, Linux, OS/X, Solaris, and Windows

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    21. Re:Other ways of handling it... by SkunkPussy · · Score: 1

      A Freeview box is the national standard for terrestrial digital televsion. It is available to pretty much the entire country. Tough titties if you don't have the box.

      An installation of windows media player is emphatically not a standard for media playing - anywhere, ever. If I cannot play windows media files on the platform I use, the unholy trinity of licenses, copyright and patents prevents me legally playing back these files.

      Therefore I cry.

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    22. Re:Other ways of handling it... by jx100 · · Score: 1

      VC-1 is a bit different from what you say. It is created from Microsoft's proprietary WMV codec, however it has been ratified by a standards body. Its specification is freely available to anyone who wishes to implement it, independent of Microsoft's will.

      Your point on MP3 mostly stands, except for the fact that it is more or less de facto available to anyone who wishes to implement it. Certainly not as good as de jure availablility like Ogg though.

    23. Re:Other ways of handling it... by lysergic.acid · · Score: 1

      ah yes, maybe we should take away wheelchair access ramps too. i mean, if the disabled don't like it, they're free to not shop at those stores after all. brilliant!

      for the rest of us who think that a public-funded media corporation should provide equal access to all users who've already paid into the content, this challenge is long overdue. considering the BBC's reputation for being a progressive organization that's usually very in touch with its viewers/users, it's actually kinda odd that they would have ignored this issue for so long.

      from my understanding (from the BBC Backstage mailinglist), this has been brought up by developers before. the BBC is actually pretty good at responding to user feedback, and work closely with the open source community through BBC Backstage. they typically support using open standards, but there's a lot of pressure from content producers to lock it down and cripple its usage with DRM. so i can understand that they're in a tough position, but i have faith that they'll reach some sort of compromise that will be better than the current arrangement.

    24. Re:Other ways of handling it... by fishfinger · · Score: 1

      More to the point, you can buy a freeview box from many different manufacturers, you are not forced to buy a freeview box from a single vendor.

    25. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Darth · · Score: 1

      I'm confused. Both HD-DVD and BluRay include Microsoft's VC-1 codec as a manditory-to-implement codec. So any device capable of decoding either of the two high-definition DVD formats is required to include a Microsoft codec. Why is this any different?

      Well, both formats require VC-1, MPEG-2, and H.264 video codecs to be implemented. VC-1, while developed by Microsoft, is a published standard from SMPTE. If you implement the published standard, movies from either physical media (that use VC-1 for video encoding) will play on your device.

      This is different from using the Windows Media format because nobody else can implement it legally. No video player other than Windows Media Player can play them; and WMP is only available on Windows. This forces the BBC audience to use Windows and WMP if they want to partake of the content.

      Even MP3 isn't an "open standard" - it's protected by a series of patents that are owned by various corporations (AT&T, Freunhoffer), so would the BBC be precluded from distributing its content via MP3s?

      MP3 is a standard that requires licensing. However, it can be (and is) implemented by many media players and on many platforms. It isn't the same issue.

      Hopefully, that helps clear up the confusion as to why the situation with the BBC isn't the same as the HD formats or MP3.

      --
      Darth --
      Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
    26. Re:Other ways of handling it... by SkunkPussy · · Score: 1

      There was a big meeting within the last couple of years between either Gates or Ballmer and the head honchos of the BBC. Since then, the BBC's attitude towards M$ has noticeably thawed.

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    27. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Drantin · · Score: 1

      de jure I don't think that non-existant word means what you think it means...

      Try looking up du jour.

      Unless you're just making words up; in which case, you can habblefra for all I care...
      --
      Actio personalis moritur cum persona. (Dead men don't sue)
    28. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      if it is not a free service

      Uhh... it is a free service.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    29. Re:Other ways of handling it... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      A DTV box is a decoder of the DVB-T standard. The specifications for this are available for this and anyone can build their own. The GNU Radio team had a demo a while back with a software radio, where the processing (everything from isolating the spectrum to decoding the H.264 or MPEG-2) was done in software. Since software patents are not valid here, you don't even need to pay patent fees to do it, although outside the UK you may need an MPEG-LA license for the final stage.

      Contrast this with Microsoft DRM, where only Microsoft provide an implementation, and they will only do so for some platforms. If customers want to play back Microsoft DRM'd material on their Symbian phone, for example, then they can't. A company seeing this market can't develop a player for this platform either.

      There is a huge difference between having to buy something, and having to buy something from a specific company. I can buy a DVB-T decoder from a number of companies, or build my own. The same is true of TVs, radios, computers, operating systems and web browsers. In short, everything needed to access the BBC's other services.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    30. Re:Other ways of handling it... by sessamoid · · Score: 1

      de jure I don't think that non-existant word means what you think it means...

      Try looking up du jour.

      Unless you're just making words up; in which case, you can habblefra for all I care... I don't think you're as educated as you think you are. It's Latin:


      de jure - according to rightful entitlement or claim; by right.

      --
      "No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."
    31. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Drantin · · Score: 1

      OK, I stand corrected, de jure does exist... although that definition doesn't seem to make sense in the original post to me...

      --
      Actio personalis moritur cum persona. (Dead men don't sue)
    32. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Divebus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd recommend reading this for a good overview of how Windows Media and QuickTime grew out of the muck.

      Bluray and HD-DVD will decode VC-1 if the material is encoded with VC-1. Most disks use H.264 because it's a better codec anyway and Hollywood is very skeptical about allowing Microsoft technologies to encapsulate "their" media, so it's lightly used. Most corporations have learned that any agreement with Microsoft is treacherous territory. Given the chance, they'll devour you from the inside and spit out your bones. If you examine Microsoft's history of practically any technology which is inherently interoperable, their constant effort is to distill everything work only on Windows. That's a huge problem which is working against them big time.

      Microsoft found itself in a very uncomfortable situation with VC-1. They expected everyone to beat a path to their toll gate when High Definition DVDs were being developed. That didn't happen and they were the only ones who were surprised. What actually occurred was they weren't even invited to the party, so Microsoft found itself in the position of throwing the codec at standards committees, begging for ratification and it still took several years. Microsoft wanted exclusive control over the codec and that was unacceptable to those who understood the way Microsoft would eventually hold the content owners hostage. Microsoft had to provide the source code and define the royalty structure up front - something they've never had to do. This was the first time anything from Microsoft was properly standardized.

      Another detractor against using Microsoft technologies was the long history of failed efforts and broken promises from Microsoft in the media business. Look at how often Microsoft has renamed existing technologies over the years because they have always culminated in some sort of train wreck. That kind of technical stability isn't something manufacturers were looking for long term. Manufacturers also had no faith in Microsoft's ability to deliver a secure product. During that time frame, the well known inverse of "Security" was "Microsoft".

      The VC-1 codec is separate from Windows Media Player, literally removed from the Microsoft wrapper and offered seperately. Windows Media Player, with the possible exception of corporations which have signed exclusive deals with Microsoft, is shriveling up rapidly in favor of the MPEG4 container and H.264 codec (pronounced "QuickTime"). Many major video portals and hardware manufacturers have started shipping Flash (H.263) or MPEG4 with more on the way. Right now, Windows Media is working along side these technologies where a few years ago it was nearly alone in the field. Eventually, Windows Media may well fall away completely. The most popular format for paid media uses the interoperable and extensible MPEG4/H.264, not Windows Media (the iTunes Store).

      The Windows Media Player wrapper is the shell which embodies mechanisms to track your movements, blow advertising at you, restrict your ability to view things as well as a few useful functions. Relatively, QuickTime is the crown jewel of media with far more flexibility than Windows Media could even pretend to have.

      --

      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
    33. Re:Other ways of handling it... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      The original post does indeed use it in a rather strange way, but it nevertheless makes some sense. Basically, jx100 meant this:

      Your point on MP3 mostly stands, except for the fact that it is more or less [by the fact [that MS claims not to plan to sue]] available to anyone who wishes to implement it. Certainly not as good as [guaranteed by law [as Ogg is free of patents and released under a BSD-style license]] availablility like Ogg though.

      In other words, the difference between "de facto" and "de jure" availability is that the former is by the grace of Microsoft, whereas the latter is by the force of law.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    34. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Ravnen · · Score: 1
      Theoretically that might be a better way to go about it, but in practice the resources required to develop and support a viable format, particularly one including DRM, would be much higher than the costs of simply licensing a format from Microsoft (or Apple, et al.). The result would almost certainly be of inferior quality as well: look at the complaints in this article about the software the BBC have developed, and they haven't even had to expend resources on trying to implement a codec or DRM.

      At the end of the day, the BBC ought to be developing a solution that provides the best value for money for the British public. That most likely requires leaving things like codec development to people who actually know how to do it. The overwhelming bulk of British computer users can play WMV, and will get a more satisfactory result from it than from most (if not all) of the alternatives.

    35. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Ravnen · · Score: 1

      WMV can be viewed on essentially any brand of PC as well, provided Windows is installed. For the overwhelming majority of users, the choice of PC manufacturer, not OS, is the one that matters.

    36. Re:Other ways of handling it... by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      which means not everything will be viewable by everyone all the time. a) It cuts out a good chunk of people who *want* to view it but cant.
      b) Its Microsoft so said people will *never* be able to play it. MS isnt going to open their format.

    37. Re:Other ways of handling it... by mormop · · Score: 1

      And in the UK the majority of cars sold are Fords. Given that only TV owners pay the Licence fee and only car owners pay road tax does that mean that the government should create roads that give an advantage to Ford owners? No. The car market is the ideal example of competition in a competitive marketplace and the price, feature set and performance of cars has improved as manufacturers fight for market share.

      The OS market on the other hand has been the ideal demonstration of the dangers of monopoly with Microsoft only having to change their ways when the press starting treating Linux as a serious contender, particularly in the realm of security. Roads are platform independent and car manufacturers have a set of known, open standards to which they have to adhere. Manufacturers therefore fight it out based on reliability, feature-set and other competitive tactics. Look at Skoda if you want to see the effect. When it was a monopoly, they made this for 14 years.

      It is not the job of the BBC to use licence payers money to support a convicted monopolist and so long as the licence fee provides their funds it's only right that the people who pay their wages have equal rights to access the programs they paid for with whatever brand of computer hardware/OS they choose.

      --
      Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
    38. Re:Other ways of handling it... by blowdart · · Score: 1

      Which frankly was a good thing. Before that meeting the clips and downloads on the BBC site were done in Real Media, with no other option. Recently it's been both Real and Microsoft formats. Whilst I have no doubt that won't please people here, it is at least a semblance of choice, even if they're both closed formats.

    39. Re:Other ways of handling it... by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      WMV suits the majority of users but it's troubling when a state funded organisation requires users to purchase a product available from just one company in order to use their services. It's even more troubling when the product in question is sold by Microsoft.

      An overwhelming number of people can walk but state libraries still install wheelchair ramps to take care of the minority that can't. That's what a state organisation should doing.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    40. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Ravnen · · Score: 1

      WMV suits the majority of users but it's troubling when a state funded organisation requires users to purchase a product available from just one company in order to use their services. It's even more troubling when the product in question is sold by Microsoft.
      Maybe they should make the contract conditional on Microsoft offering the relevant codecs for any OS with a user base over a certain threshold. I think Microsoft could easily offer its codecs for Intel Macs, for example, and Mac OS is probably the only other platform with a large enough user base to be important. I don't know if implementing the DRM on Mac OS would be a problem or not, though.

      An overwhelming number of people can walk but state libraries still install wheelchair ramps to take care of the minority that can't. That's what a state organisation should doing.
      Yes, but the point is they can't walk, not that they don't want to walk. If someone doesn't want to use Windows, it's their own choice.
    41. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Ravnen · · Score: 1
      I don't agree with that. If Ford, for example, added patented technology to its cars to allow road use to be accurately metered, and the state entered into an agreement to allow drivers of Fords to pay for only their actual road use, I'd consider that progress. Would it discriminate against drivers of other cars? Yes. However, it would also improve economic efficiency and reward Ford for developing technology that improves social welfare, and which would eventually be available to everyone.

      BBC programming isn't going to be available exclusively to Windows users, the BBC are just taking advantage of a new distribution channel made possible by Microsoft's DRM technology. Since Microsoft developed technology that allows the BBC to digitally distribute content that it would otherwise be legally unable to distribute digitally, thereby enhancing social welfare, it's perfectly proper to reward them.

    42. Re:Other ways of handling it... by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      aybe they should make the contract conditional on Microsoft offering the relevant codecs for any OS with a user base over a certain threshold. I think Microsoft could easily offer its codecs for Intel Macs, for example, and Mac OS is probably the only other platform with a large enough user base to be important. I don't know if implementing the DRM on Mac OS would be a problem or not, though.

      Yeah, it would be great if the BBC made that demand part of their contract. If that happens, some good may come of this.

      Yes, but the point is they can't walk, not that they don't want to walk. If someone doesn't want to use Windows, it's their own choice.

      Choice is the key word here. I have two choices - buy windows or go without. That's a less than ideal situation when we're talking about a state funded broadcaster. There is no real choice, it's all or nothing and that reminds me of the response often seen when people complain about a product or service - 'if you won't like it, no-one is forcing you to use it'. I try to avoid Microsoft products for ethical reasons so that makes it difficult for me think about buying Windows. Also, it's not exactly cheap to get another computer when I know I'd rarely use it.

      My idea of choice would be a situation where there are two methods of accessing the content, ideally open standards so that users can obtain the client from a range of vendors. I suppose the DRM aspect is the big stumbling block.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    43. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Ravnen · · Score: 1
      BBC content will still be distributed in the traditional ways, which are less convenient, but don't require DRM for legal compliance. In that way, then, it will still be accessible to those who choose not to use Windows.

      It seems to me the issue here is that Microsoft developed DRM technology that allows the BBC to distribute content digitally, which it would otherwise be unable to do for legal reasons. This means Windows users benefit, but if viable solutions to the problem exist on Mac OS, and perhaps other platforms, then the ideal situation would be for the BBC to support them too. If such solutions don't exist, then there's really nothing the BBC can do for users of those platforms, given its legal obligations.

    44. Re:Other ways of handling it... by fuliginous · · Score: 1

      The solution there is just provide the content they own. They don't then have to DRM it for the benefit of the copyright holders. And as I argued in my feedback to the BBC consultation why should they be offering anything that is or will shortly be available through license from the copyright holder on DVD as one example? That just makes them a competitor to a commercial service.

      Providing their own content of current affairs, news and similar is surely much more public service broadcasting than shit like Eastenders.

    45. Re:Other ways of handling it... by mormop · · Score: 1

      Which is the equivalent of the state creating roads that only Ford cars can work on and then requiring all users of other cars to replace them in order to use the roads. If DRM is necessary as the BBC claims it is then it's reasonable that a player should be produced for licence fee payers that will run on all the mainstream OSs. We pay for the production of the TV programs and we are paying for the establishment of the new service and we are paying for the creation of the media player. It is not outside of the abilities of the BBC tech department to create their own platform independent media player and, if they believe it necessary, DRM system. It is not however, the place of the BBC to support a convicted monopolist in it's pursuit of dominance in a marketplace.

      --
      Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
    46. Re:Other ways of handling it... by Ravnen · · Score: 1

      Which is the equivalent of the state creating roads that only Ford cars can work on and then requiring all users of other cars to replace them in order to use the roads.
      I don't know if there's really any value in going further with this analogy, but in the situation we've got today, the roads are there, it's just that nobody can use them. I.e. the infrastructure for digital distribution is in place, but the BBC can't distribute content digitally for legal reasons. If it were a case of building a completely new infrastructure, that would of course be a different matter.

      If DRM is necessary as the BBC claims it is then it's reasonable that a player should be produced for licence fee payers that will run on all the mainstream OSs.
      I agree they should offer it for Mac OS, but they can reasonably argue that 'mainstream OS' means Windows. Besides which, the content will still be offered via traditional means as well, so it's not exclusive to Windows users, they're just in a position to benefit from Microsoft's investment in DRM technology.

      We pay for the production of the TV programs and we are paying for the establishment of the new service and we are paying for the creation of the media player. It is not outside of the abilities of the BBC tech department to create their own platform independent media player and, if they believe it necessary, DRM system.
      You may be right, but I don't honestly think developing and maintaining A/V codecs and a viable DRM system competitive with what Microsoft can offer is something the BBC would be capably of doing, and certainly not in a cost effective way. Is spending an excessive amount of resources to duplicate a technology that can easily and inexpensively be licensed from a third party, reaching 95% of end users, effective use of the licence-fee payers' money?
  4. Iplayer is temporary? by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

    I always thought the BBC player using MS formats was a short-term measure.

    Wasn't it called Dirac or something?

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:Iplayer is temporary? by kiddailey · · Score: 1

      No, that's the current system and it's actually spelled "Dalek."

    2. Re:Iplayer is temporary? by kiddailey · · Score: 1

      Blah. I hate when you mess up your own joke and there's no edit button :/

    3. Re:Iplayer is temporary? by SonnyJimATC · · Score: 1

      I went to a linux media festival in Bristol last year and one of the guys who is developing that codec gave a talk about their new streaming technology. When asked why they are using proprietory software he replied that they needed a codec that was available on all 3 major platforms (*nix, Windows and Mac) and the only mature/stable codecs were not OSS. For the record he was very enthusiastic about Linux and OSS in general.

  5. Good for OGG format? by alexjohnc3 · · Score: 0

    Maybe the BBC will use the OGG format, which will help to make OGG more mainstream and cause more devices to support it!

    1. Re:Good for OGG format? by jacksonj04 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Nope, because that would be stupid. They have some kind of responsibility to broadcast things in a reasonably mainstream method - which is why they couldn't switch entirely to digital in 2002 because it would make it more mainstream and cause more devices to support it.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    2. Re:Good for OGG format? by aichpvee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Any reason why they can't support multiple formats? How about Flash? Not that Flash is the best solution, long-term, but it does work natively across more platforms than either quicktime or windows media and it is installed on most web browsers.

      What would be stupid is to continue supporting the microsoft monopoly and helping them expand it onto the Internet. This is about the long-term quality of computing, something microsoft is a very real threat to.

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    3. Re:Good for OGG format? by turgid · · Score: 1

      Recently, the BBC did a deal with Microsoft regarding the distribution of digital content via its web sites. As usual, they trumpeted it as if it were a great breakthrough on news.bbc.co.uk. I'm sure google can find it.

    4. Re:Good for OGG format? by DJCacophony · · Score: 1
      --
      Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
    5. Re:Good for OGG format? by aichpvee · · Score: 1

      Even if that had ANYTHING to do with this conversation, which it most certainly does not, microsoft only supports it because they don't own the pipes and it will cost them more to spread their monopoly to the Internet if they're forced to pay for privileged access. The fact that you even mentioned it shows that you can never understand the conversation going on nor what net neutrality is all about.

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
  6. Glad to see this. by anubi · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Governments, funded by the PUBLIC should put their stuff in PUBLIC format.

    --
    "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    1. Re:Glad to see this. by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 1

      Well, I guess that basically leaves us with Matroska as its at least the only public domain video format I know of. Of course that may mean only .000001% of the public will actually have the required software to see it, but at least its public! ;-)

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    2. Re:Glad to see this. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You can get software to play MKVs on almost any platform for free-as-in-beer (and often -as-in-speech), unlike Windows Media with DRM.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Glad to see this. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Really? What platform can you not play Windows Media on? Even my phone can play Windows Media. I would be surprised if the iPod video didn't support wmv either. Certainly easy in every linux distro out there, No problem on the Mac. All supported out of the box versus MKV which I've never even heard of let alone downloaded a codec for. This is just silly, you don't even need Windows Media encoder to create Windows Media files. The DRM is entirely optional.

    4. Re:Glad to see this. by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      You forgot about the obvious one, Ogg Theora.

    5. Re:Glad to see this. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Really? What platform can you not play Windows Media on?

      You can't play DRM-encoded windows media anyplace you don't have windows media player. You are asking an irrelevant question, "What platform can you not play Windows Media on?", the actual question is "What platform can you not play DRM-restricted Windows Media on?" And the answer is "most places" - you can't play it anyplace that doesn't have a recent windows media player. And that turns out to be quite a few places.

      I have a better question or two, though. Why should the BBC choose a proprietary format? Why should the BBC use DRM at all? Those are the two biggies.

      All supported out of the box versus MKV which I've never even heard of let alone downloaded a codec for.

      MKV isn't a codec, it's a container format. It's an open container format that supports AFAIK effectively unlimited video and audio streams, internal subtitle tracks, etc. Not ever having heard of it is irrelevant, because it's not a large download and the beeb could provide download instructions.

      I'm not really suggesting that anyone use MKV, though. It simply exists, and is Open. AVI is fine with me, as it's unlikely they will release any video streams over 2GB and AVI is well-known. Frankly, I would prefer to see them simply use an MPEG stream to any of this other stuff, because it's the most compatible thing out there (even MPEG4 is widely playable these days.)

      This is just silly, you don't even need Windows Media encoder to create Windows Media files.

      This is completely irrelevant, because we're talking about playing them, not recording them.

      The DRM is entirely optional.

      This is completely irrelevant, because we're talking about playing them, not recording them. And the BBC decides whether DRM is used, not the user.

      If this is the height of your debating ability, you'd better go to digg.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Glad to see this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Certainly easy in every linux distro out there

      You mean every x86 Linux distro out there. Good luck getting it to work on Linux on any other hardware platform (and there are quite a few that are common--PPC and ARM to name two).

    7. Re:Glad to see this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Matroska isn't a video format, it's a multimedia container. You can stick just about anything in there. AVC, ASP, VC-1, MP3, AAC, TTXT, SRT, Vobsubs you name it.

      By the way there are open video codecs like Theora or the BBCs own Dirac. Unfortunately they are both not ready for primetime. I have never used theora, but I read it probably won't be able to reach ASP (XviD/DivX) quality wise. Diracs development has picked up in the last couple of months, but there are still problems with colour drifts and blocking in high motion scenes. Also currently both encoding and decoding are dog slow. Can't even play 640*480 on a brand new core2duo in real time.

    8. Re:Glad to see this. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      As for your first question, why should the BBC choose a proprietary format that 800 million computers in-use today support? That's not even worth answering, it's just plain silly particularly from a news agency trying to reach as many people as possible.

      This is not a debate. You haven't actually presented a rebuttal to anything I said, you merely cast it all off as irrelevant.

      The problem isn't with WMV, it's with the DRM employed. Lift the DRM and over 800 million computers out there can play the content. Sorry but that's not irrelevant simply because you say it is. Having not heard of MKV also matters a great deal, the format is not widely adopted and so there is limited expertise in it. Since it is a container then that shouldn't really change anything in which case, why did you bring it up? Regardless, the vast majority of players out there won't play it and the vast majority of people out there either can't or won't download and install it. Look how long it took flash to get adopted?

      Also not irrelevent is the fact that you don't need Windows Media encoder to produce WMV. You can use free and open source products to produce this content which is very much in fact relevant.

      The fact that the DRM is optional is also not irrelevant because it applies to both the recording side as well as the playback side. If it is not employed on the recording side then all players will be able to play it or at least the vast majority.

      You really have an odd concept of what a debate is if you think that is what you were doing.

      Debate the DRM, that is something actually worthwhile given the tradition of the BBC in it's preservation of history rather than the restriction of it.

    9. Re:Glad to see this. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Really? I had it working on Yellow Dog years ago, did it get removed?

    10. Re:Glad to see this. by MS-06FZ · · Score: 1

      MKV isn't a codec, it's a container format. It's an open container format that supports AFAIK effectively unlimited video and audio streams, internal subtitle tracks, etc. Not ever having heard of it is irrelevant, because it's not a large download and the beeb could provide download instructions.

      Yeah, but the real question is this: what restrictions exist on the use of the AFAIK codec? It's great that it can handle "effectively unlimited" streams and all that, but that doesn't do me any good if it's all bound up in patents and overly-restrictive licensing terms...
      --
      ---GEC
      I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
    11. Re:Glad to see this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Either you are a troll, or you are misinformed. Most Linux distros cannot play Windows Media that has been encoded with the newer codecs (with or without DRM), except if you install some non-free packages or if you copy some Windows DLLs (which is probably illegal anyway).

      This leaves out all Linux machines that run on processors other than x86 (powerpc, sparc, etc.). This also leaves out users of other operating systems such as Solaris, OpenBSD, AIX, etc. And of course this also excludes those who do not install non-free software on their computers for various reasons.

      By the way, is your phone running Windows Mobile by any chance? That would explain why it can play WMV files while the majority of the phones cannot (Windows Mobile only has a small share of the mobile phone market).

    12. Re:Glad to see this. by h2g2bob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Having not heard of MKV also matters a great deal, the format is not widely adopted
      This matters not a jot. iPlayer is p2p software: it is a software download already. Adding a codec install to the mix is child's play.

      And the BBC would want to protect it's content because it sells quite a bit of its content to other countries; plus sells DVDs of some stuff too. This money goes back into making programs.
    13. Re:Glad to see this. by nevali · · Score: 1

      You seem to have missed the point if you think their being a news agency has much relevancy. They're a broadcaster and content producer: news is just one small part of what they do. It's the other (read: prime-time) content that people are interested in, for the most part.

    14. Re:Glad to see this. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      No, you seem to have missed the point. The problem is with the DRM and not the format they chose. I don't care what content they wish to share. They should setup a site for those in Britain without DRM and a site for everyone else with it because they sell the content. Problem solved. I can understand why those in Britain would be annoyed given that they pay taxes to support the BBC and I can understand by the BBC would want DRM.

      Of course if they got rid of the DRM completely and just went to an account based system which charged people if they weren't from Britain then everything would be fine.

      Alternatively they should just provide it for free since the public of Britain already paid for it.

    15. Re:Glad to see this. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      You are correct, a 200k download times 100 million potential viewers is nothing to worry about. Oh wait, that's a lot of bandwidth!

      I actually don't think that is a big deal but it's more work than just deploying with WMV and the thousands of people out there that already know how the whole process works as it relates to production and encoding.

    16. Re:Glad to see this. by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Well, the BBC is publicly-funded, by a legally-mandated licence fee, but it's not part of the government. Also, while I certainly support publicly-funded things being publicly-available, I really can't see any justification at all for trying to make this an anti-trust issue. It's been a very long time indeed since the BBC was the only UK broadcaster, and they by no means have a monopoly.

    17. Re:Glad to see this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Video iPod does not support WMV. Neither does PSP. They both support H.264 video, AAC audio and MP4 container.

    18. Re:Glad to see this. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Humorous as you can encode WMV in H.264. So you mean the iPod doesn't support the file extension.

    19. Re:Glad to see this. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Or you are misinformed. First of all copying DLLs is not illegal. Second, you don't qualify what newer codecs are. Third there are hundreds of codecs you can use to encode WMV files since it is just a container like avi. Anything you can play H.264 on you can play WMV on if the WMV was encoded with H.264. If your problem is with the choice of codec then you have a valid platform gripe as not all codecs work on all platforms.

      Furthermore, there are over 800 million Windows machines out there which qualifies as a strong majority of users out there. It makes sense as a first step for an entity such as the BBC.

    20. Re:Glad to see this. by nevali · · Score: 1

      Yes, being British (and especially as Windows isn't my primary platform), the fact it's a closed, proprietary format pisses me off no end, especially when it's one that I can't easily play and have already paid for.

      Moreover, in a few years' time, the content will be useless if it's all Windows Media Video with DRM restrictions.

      However, my response was purely to your "it's just plain silly particularly from a news agency trying to reach as many people as possible": characterising the BBC as merely a news agency misrepresents them, and their remit isn't particularly to reach as many people as possible--however their role as a public service broadcaster (operating under charter) is one whereby they are supposed to remain neutral, both in terms of content and in delivery method.

      The fact it's WMV is a big deal, even without the DRM. The DRM on its own would be a big deal. It's easy to find fault with either aspect of it. Taken together, it's retarded.

    21. Re:Glad to see this. by nevali · · Score: 1

      Oh, and also, they're free to provide content in DRM-encumbered WMV if they like; provided it's not the only format (or more importantly: that Windows isn't the only supported platform for which) they make content available in via the service.

      Indeed, if they were to release an open source player for their video files under a vaguely reasonable license, it doesn't really matter whether it's DRM-encumbered WMV, or anything else. Microsoft would never let them do that, which is a bit of an acid test for a media format, really.

    22. Re:Glad to see this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you can't "encode WMV in H.264". You can put H.264 elementary video stream into Windows Media container (note: Windows Media container is not "WMV"). It used to be called "ASF" or "Advanced Streaming Format". Later it was renamed to "Windows Media Format". And iPod can't parse it.

      "WMV" is "Windows Media Video" and it designates video codec, just like competing systems H.264 or VP6 (or another random codec that compresses video). It comes in three versions, WMV1 (supported since WMP 7), WMV2 (WMP8) and WMV3 (WMP9, with minor changes standardized as VC-1 by SMTPE). VC-1 is the video codec that is part of Blue-Ray and HD-DVD standard.

    23. Re:Glad to see this. by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they should also make their video content available on open-reel 1" videotape. With a standard charge for the distribution media, it would satisfy the demand for openness.

    24. Re:Glad to see this. by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      What's really humorous is that you seem to be utterly incapable of realizing that WMV refers to a container format and a codec for encoding videos. And that this codec is unsupported on most platforms. And that when the BBC says they intend to use WMV, they're referring to the codec.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    25. Re:Glad to see this. by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's even funnier than that. WMV doesn't even refer to a file format. .wmv files use the ASF container format. WMV just refers to a family of codecs.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    26. Re:Glad to see this. by Mr.+Vage · · Score: 0

      But isn't MKV just a container? I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this format just allows you to take any video, audio, and subtitle streams and package them together. The underlying video format would still be WMV and would still require the WMV codec to process the video.

    27. Re:Glad to see this. by Alsee · · Score: 1

      a 200k download times 100 million potential viewers is nothing to worry about. Oh wait, that's a lot of bandwidth!

      Coding and supporting for Windows Media DRM is going turn out rather larger than that, especially considering issue that Windows Media Player may or may not already be present. And if it isn't, you're talking about over 25,000k MORE download requirement.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    28. Re:Glad to see this. by Drantin · · Score: 1

      Matroska, the container format, which is not and has never been a codec, is licenced under the LGPL... It is also an Open Standards project, meaning that a company could create their own source using the specification rather than the LGPL source code and do whatever they want with it... There are also BSD-licensed tools available...

      --
      Actio personalis moritur cum persona. (Dead men don't sue)
    29. Re:Glad to see this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you get your panties in a bunch over WMV because its a Microsoft proprietary format, and yet you suggest AVI, which is a Microsoft proprietary format.

    30. Re:Glad to see this. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      There are in fact players for Windows Media that seem to work for DRM-ized Windows Media. They're just not legal in the US due to patent issues and the DMCA regulations, nor in Europe due to copyright issues. But if you need them for Linux, look for "Penguin Liberation Front".

      The BBC seems to have been trapped by an early decision to cooperate with the desires of copyright holders to enforce their copyrights via software. This decision has, frankly, ruined the viability of Iplayer. Pirate video recorders will simply Bittorrent upload to sites like www.thepiratebay.org, and the value of the rights restricted content will rapidly diminish. And I don't see a good way out for them, unless they can make the Iplayer so responsive and so well managed that it's vastly superior to Bittorrenting. That would take a huge investment both in infrastructure and in responsive to customer desires.

      Respononsiveness, I'm afraid, is not the BBC's strong point. Perhaps they could simply partner with YouTube to get a working interface, and throw out their own departments that were hired to do this?

    31. Re:Glad to see this. by dave420 · · Score: 1

      It is a public format, in so much as the vast, vast majority of desktop users can view it. Their mandate is to get the content to people. It's that simple. Windows Media Player does just that. Getting them to stop using it makes it harder for folks to get the content, which is against their mandate. I'm all for F/OSS, but forcing folks to change their behaviour is not doing the movement any good.

    32. Re:Glad to see this. by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      You are correct, a 200k download times 100 million potential viewers is nothing to worry about. Oh wait, that's a lot of bandwidth!

      What? Like 19 terabytes? When we're talking about streaming video to 100 million people? Nope - that's not a lot of bandwidth.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    33. Re:Glad to see this. by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      Copying Microsoft's DLLs is illegal unless you have a Windows licence. They actual licence for individual DLLs may vary but on the whole, they would be protected the same way as the rest of the OS.

      I see where your coming from regarding this being a first step for the BBC but I hope they get this expanded to other OSes. Having to buy a product from one company in order to view material from a state funded broadcaster is just a bad idea.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    34. Re:Glad to see this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only .000001% of the public will actually have the required software to see it

      yeah, just like the proposed proprietary solution proposed by the misguided Beeb people.

    35. Re:Glad to see this. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      And the magician didn't have that rabbit up his sleeve when he started the trick. It's a tax, pure and simple: it's set and enforced federally, and the money goes into coffers under quite direct federal control.

      Some of the results of this tax are positive: the world-wide news coverage by the BBC has historically been fabulous. But make no mistake, their leadership and staff bear the marks of other civil service bureaucracies such as the US Post Office.

    36. Re:Glad to see this. by MS-06FZ · · Score: 1

      And this has... what, exactly, to do with my stupid, un-funny joke?

      --
      ---GEC
      I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
    37. Re:Glad to see this. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Respononsiveness, I'm afraid, is not the BBC's strong point. Perhaps they could simply partner with YouTube to get a working interface, and throw out their own departments that were hired to do this?

      Is Respononsiveness like Bokononism?

      I agree with you to the fullest extent however that they should have just partnered with someone who knew what they were doing.

      Incidentally, the BBC often is the copyright holder. So for any material for which that is the case, there is no mandate to use DRM (unless it comes from within the beeb, and I think we have already formed our own opinions over whether that should happen or not. And for anything else, they can simply fail to distribute it, which is pretty reasonable.

      I'd also like to know why the BBC developed its own video codec if they're not going to use it. They should be making AVI (or, in a perfect world, MKV or similar) video clips using ogg dirac and without DRM.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  7. Re:What BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If I run a website I'll put content out any damn way I please. This is a load of crap, regardless of who they are and what format they are objecting to.

    I see, and do you happen to be an elected government that pays for running that Website by collecting tax dollars from the people (at gunpoint if need be)? I didn't think so.

  8. Re:What BS by Goaway · · Score: 1

    Do you run a website providing content paid for by a national TV license?

  9. The BBC shouldn't need to be told. by cromar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The OS landscape changing as it is now (not necessarily as fast as we'd like it), this move is valid. Personally I don't like to use Microsoft products, no exception to Windows Media Player on Mac (a bit of a bitch to find and install the proper CODECs).

    I like to at least have a choice of media formats available...

    1. Re:The BBC shouldn't need to be told. by peragrin · · Score: 1

      MSFT dicontinued Windows Media for the Mac last year. Now in order to view WMV files one most manually download a third party codec. It does have an installation program but yea.

      It also chokes on a large section of WM9 files. They do work on it, but it's hit or miss sometimes. and don't even think about DRM encrusted files.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:The BBC shouldn't need to be told. by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1
      Yeah, I don't use WMP to play WMV on Mac either. Especially since MS stopped developing the player for mac and gave it out to a 3rd party developer. So now I use the www.flip4mac.com Flip4mac plug-in and view WMV content in Quicktime.

      Typically I tell clients to place video on the web in Quicktime if you're looking to hit the largest market segment with only 1 format. But from what they are saying, they want a time bomb that would disable content after x number of days and I'm not sure there is anything out there in Quicktime land that does this.

      That being said, several US broadcast networks have been able to figure something out. I watched a number of lost episodes online. Not sure what their format was, but it decent quality and only 2 30 second commericals. I can live with that.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    3. Re:The BBC shouldn't need to be told. by Falesh · · Score: 1

      I agree that their on demand stuff should be in open formats. The BBC is usually pretty good with stuff like this, I'm not sure why they went down the Real Player and WMP rout.

  10. Blogs... by ilovegeorgebush · · Score: 2, Informative

    Blogged about the BBC's choice of DRM a while back, Could the BBC lose respect over DRM?

    1. Re:Blogs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congrats! you are the millionth monkey!

    2. Re:Blogs... by ilovegeorgebush · · Score: 1

      And proud of it!

      We'll all write the works of Shakespeare sooner or later, right? That's gotta be worth something :)

  11. Hmm. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

    Nothing else to do than poing fingers at a media player?

    They're a major source of world news, and someone wants to start a fire because of pure hate for Microsoft?

    It's not like they didn't take the time to measure out their options, they're a media broadcasting company for Christ sakes. They've been around a few decades before media player even existed, and I'm pretty sure they're wise enough to decide on their own player even if they needed to purchase it with pocket change.

    --
    "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    1. Re:Hmm. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's not like they didn't take the time to measure out their options, they're a media broadcasting company for Christ sakes. They've been around a few decades before media player even existed, and I'm pretty sure they're wise enough to decide on their own player even if they needed to purchase it with pocket change.

      Obviously they aren't or they wouldn't be going with windows media with DRM which they have no business putting into the files in the first place. They're a state-sponsored, court-enforced monopoly which anyone with a device capable of picking up their signal must fund, and they're putting out files that a significant number of the licensees can't do anything with. Obviously, they're missing the fucking point.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Hmm. by janrinok · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except they are not a company; they are a corporation paid for by government funding raised by charging all citizens for their TV license. The argument being stated here is that if I pay the license fee, surely I have a right to be able to watch their content without having to install Windows on my computer. I assume that you pay taxes and license fees in your country, wouldn't you complain if you were prevented from getting any benefit from the money raised?

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    3. Re:Hmm. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      I dunno, last I checked I quite easily watched all the WMV porn I liked on my SUSE, Ubuntu, or Fedora installs. Why must I install Windows to watch WMV? My phone even plays WMV files. Perhaps you're more concerned with the DRM? That would make a lot more sense. Get rid of the DRM and then the problem goes away.

    4. Re:Hmm. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Do you see any of the revenue brought in from the advertisements sold on the station?

      I don't expect my kids to get a free year in college because my government actually tried to make back a few million on the hundreds of billions they spend each year, by using a "drm infested" software.

      Not only that, but they're going to be using your precious tax dollars (that you get SO much of) to buy NEW software bundles to install throughout the corporation... when it wouldn't have cost them any extra otherwise.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    5. Re:Hmm. by janrinok · · Score: 1

      There is no advertising on the BBC. It doesn't have to raise funding by selling air time. It is one of the most outstanding features of the BBC. No adverts, no interruptions, just the program that you wanted to watch.....

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    6. Re:Hmm. by janrinok · · Score: 1

      The main issue is with DRM, you are correct, but the way the system works at the moment (during testing, I've personally not seen the system live) it cannot detect a player on anything other than a Windows machine so it will not even get to the streaming stage. It prompts to let you install the player which is of no use to anyone using anything other than MS Windows.....

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    7. Re:Hmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno, last I checked I quite easily watched all the WMV porn I liked on my SUSE, Ubuntu, or Fedora installs.

      Let me guess: you're have a 386-like processor, and you're running code pirated from MS Windows.

      Good luck with that approach on any other architecture (PPC, Opteron, etc).

    8. Re:Hmm. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Well that's crap too then, they should remove the checker and the DRM and then everyone will be happier.

    9. Re:Hmm. by janrinok · · Score: 1

      Agreed, but they will want to raise money in the future. Additionally, if the broadcast is available without restriction on the internet, why would anyone need to have a TV, and its associated license (ignoring the other channels for the time being)? And, in that event, their funding would dry up. So they have to have a system which allows them to control who can receive it, and to prevent the widespread transmission of the data in real-time. For example, if the BBC was streaming the Olympic Games around the world in near real-time, I can imagine that many foreign TV companies would be very upset if it resulted in them losing part of their own audience.

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    10. Re:Hmm. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Sounds to me like the problem isn't technological at all then. You present a logical reason why the BBC would want DRM but it's quite an issue given how much DRM is abused these days. Technology isn't going to solve this problem though. They need to find an alternative method for funding, like perhaps and Internet tax in addition to the TV tax? I don't know, I imagine a tax on every medium they are a part of would go a long way to solving the funding issues as people invariably change which device they choose to watch shows on.

      The problem with Tivo and DVR technology is that if I watch a show for the first time late in the season I can't go back and watch all the other episodes because I was impressed. So instead I have to do the illegal thing and download the shows so I can actually watch them so I can finish out the season knowing what people are talking about at lunch. Of course most popular shows are broadcast online now these days as well in the U.S. at least. This is a new and welcomed change and has actually stopped me from wanting to download them torrent sites.

    11. Re:Hmm. by janrinok · · Score: 1

      Shhhh! Please don't mention 'internet tax' near any European politician - they might think it is a good idea!

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    12. Re:Hmm. by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      haha, I apologize, someone please mod my previous post into hell so it is not discovered.

    13. Re:Hmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think so - suddenly they're broadcasting a signal to everybody in the world, which includes people who have not paid the licence fee. So they're restricting its use - fair enough, or do you think the British should fund American's free tv?

      They're actually putting out files that an insignificant minority of licencees cannot do anything with, nowhere near anything like 'significant'. I think they get the point, unlike selfish, whinging retards you.

    14. Re:Hmm. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Hmm. No shit.

      My bad.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    15. Re:Hmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if it's not a program you wanted to watch? You're still paying for it. Even if you don't watch anything BBC related. And if you don't feel like paying for it, you can end up in jail. I consider that outstanding.

    16. Re:Hmm. by janrinok · · Score: 1

      NO, NO, NO. Your license is NOT for the BBC - as I have already stated several times in this thread - it is for having the ability to receive ANY television broadcast, from ANYWHERE in the world. Please read your license! Whether you want to watch the BBC is irrelevant to the entire argument regarding license fees. If you do not want to pay you can either a) not own any apparatus capable of receiving television broadcasts or b) use it solely for watching DVDs and computer games and inform the licensing authority in writing that this is what your television is for. Otherwise you can end up in court and, ultimately, in prison.

      You appear to be pissed off with the license fee and the reason is that you haven't bothered to read the license in the first place. Another breathtaking contribution to a thread from an AC!

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    17. Re:Hmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ffmpeg has had native WMV9 support for quite some time now. Try upgrading your players.

  12. The beeb is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY by spun · · Score: 1

    The citizens have every right to demand whatever they'd like from their government. You sound like an idiotic knee-jerk apologist for big business who just assumed that the BBC was a private company.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:The beeb is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY by jacksonj04 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope, the BBC is *not* a government agency (At least not officially). It's supported by a complex system of licence fees and laws from the government, but it is not in itself a government/public agency.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    2. Re:The beeb is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nope, the BBC is *not* a government agency (At least not officially). It's supported by a complex system of licence fees and laws from the government, but it is not in itself a government/public agency.

      While you are correct AFAIK, the BBC is effectively a government agency because if you own a device capable of receiving a terrestrial broadcast you are required to pay them the licensing fee or you will see them in court.

      State-sponsored monopolies, especially mandatory ones, should be subject to the same sort of restrictions and reasoning as government itself.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:The beeb is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY by spun · · Score: 1

      Really? I did not know that. I really thought it was a part of the government. Well, as regulated as it is, my point still stands, wouldn't you say?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    4. Re:The beeb is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

      Owning a device is not enough. Being caught using the device is enough.

      Having an old black and white TV in the attic will not get you in trouble, having a TV in your living room all set up but turned off on the other hand will.

      --
      I like muppets.
    5. Re:The beeb is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      "the BBC is effectively a government agency because if you own a device capable of receiving a terrestrial broadcast

      The same could be said about cable TV companies or phone companies in most places. The BBC is no more of a government agency than any of them really. So if we are going to apply that sort of level of scrutiny to the BBC (i.e. the British Broadcasting Corporation) than all other media corporations must also be subjected to that same level of scrutiny.

      While I am all for that, the BBC is currently far more open than any other major news / media corporation.

    6. Re:The beeb is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      no, it is not a government agency, not even effectively. It is funded by laws passed by the government, and that's as far as it goes. Its not sponsored by the govmt, the licence fee was defined ages ago and now they cannot change it (the next review is in 2013). It has a charter describing the reason for its existence, and the restrictions that apply to it. It is run by a Trust that is charged with maintaining its independance.

      Here's a good set of links: http://www.bbccharterreview.org.uk/seminars/semina rs_licfee06.html

      There are plenty of cases where the price is set or restricted by the government for services that are definitely private companies (eg the post, the utilities). The only difference is that the BBC bills you on expected usage and not actual usage, but that's only because they cannot meter you picking up the tv signals. Maybe things will be different in 2012 and then we'll see the licence fee (and therefore the internet downloads) change to a subscriber basis.

  13. Re:What BS by cromar · · Score: 1

    Nicely put.

  14. Real Player by Cerberus911 · · Score: 3, Funny

    They should just switch to Real Player, then everyone will be equally (un)happy.

    1. Re:Real Player by Deviate_X · · Score: 2, Funny

      "The OSC compared the situation to the European Commission's prosecution of Microsoft over its bundling of Windows Media Player with Windows."

      they just consult with the EU commission and make a new website www.bbcN.co.uk website without media player files

    2. Re:Real Player by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 1

      RealPlayer on linux makes me somewhat happy the times I have to use it. The core is open-source (Helix DNA), and it's about on par with all the other video players in Linux. (I believe that SuSE also uses Helix instead of gStreamer). I heard the Mac player isin't stellar, but is far ahead of the Windows version

      --
      "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
    3. Re:Real Player by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      I've worked with it. The installers for Helix servers were written by drunken off-shore contractors who can't spell the phrase "report error conditions, don't just fail silently". It's just not stable enough for industrial scale use, even though various web streaming companies have tried to do so.

  15. iPlayer is a piece of junk.... by R00BYtheN00BY · · Score: 0, Troll

    step 1: in soviet russia, step 1 you step 2: over 9000 steps step 2: ??? step 3: Profit

    1. Re:iPlayer is a piece of junk.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant to say, "What's all this, then?"

  16. No, and that's what the complaint if for. by twitter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oddly named bittrollent asks:

    Is this really your idea of freedom?

    I'm not sure what the question means, but a government agency publishing things in a format that's owned by one company is pushing that company's fortune at the expense of all others. Why should governments cede control of their media and who watches it to a private company, especially a foreign one? People who pay their taxes deserve to be able to watch the results without having to pay the M$ tax.

    If there's a problem with software patents involved here, the problem should be taken care of directly. Software patents lead to nonsense like this and should be abolished. There's no justifying the social cost of business method patents, which is what software patents ultimately are.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by bit+trollent · · Score: 0, Troll

      So a government organization should not be allowed to do what it thinks is best without allowing some open source zealot to impose his software on them by legal harrassment? What a free world you want for the rest of us, twitter.

      How about the freedom to choose the right tool for the job for yourself withough havine some whiney little peon thrusting his 'free solution' upon you?

      While we are at it, what free, open source video format allows you the same DRM protection that is built in to WMP? I really hope you can answer this question, because you can bet that in the production of their content the BBC has entered in to some agreements that will require some form of DRM for redistribution online.

      People who pay their taxes deserve to be able to watch the results without having to pay the M$ tax.

      Guess what, at least 90% of the people who will want to use this already have Windows and to them this is by far the most convenient solution. Why? Because even when you give it away for free almost nobody feels like bothering with Linux.

      Also, aren't there already Linux applications that can play WMP content?

    2. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      >So a government organization should not be allowed to do what it thinks is best...

      Big assumption here, that after an evaluation of all factors wmv was chosen as the best format overall. Maybe no discussion about formats ever took place, leaving the decision to the blokes who built the site.

      >...without allowing some open source zealot to impose his software on them by legal harrassment? What a free world you want for the rest of us, twitter.

      They are discussing formats not open source software. And, if they chose some easily decodable quicktime format they would not be open source yet a lawsuit would not probably be coming. About your idea of DRM as a feature, I pass. You're not a subtle enough troll for me to engage in further exchange.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    3. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      twitter's definition of freedom is "any color you like, as long as it's black"

    4. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      While we are at it, what free, open source video format allows you the same DRM protection that is built in to WMP? I really hope you can answer this question, because you can bet that in the production of their content the BBC has entered in to some agreements that will require some form of DRM for redistribution online.

      There aren't any. However, most US broadcasters seem happy to use IP geocoding restrictions as their form of DRM. For instance ABC does this. IP geocoding is not hard to circumvent for people who know what they are doing and have access to a proxy inside the restricted area, but most people don't have that. It's about as decent a form of protection as relying on the nature of radio waves is, so they might as well use it.

      Also, aren't there already Linux applications that can play WMP content?

      Not if it's encrypted. To read Slashdot you might believe that no DRM scheme lasts for more than five minutes, however, both the Microsoft and Apple DRM schemes are only broken occasionally and when they are broken, they are repaired extremely quickly. The last crack I heard of for Windows Media DRM was in February of last year, and it required you to own a license to the content to decrypt it. It also wasn't an algorithmic hack, it relied on a weakness in the way the key was stored in memory by the decryption engine. So you wouldn't be able to use it on Linux anytime soon.

    5. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I wrote a letter to my MP about this, which was forwarded to the relevant cabinet office, and I also complained directly to the BBC. I will not be renewing my TV license the next time around either (I don't watch much TV, but until this decision, I felt it was worth paying for the other BBC services that don't legally require payment, but from which I derive value). Why do I object?

      Take a look at the market for downloadable TV shows. There are two reasons for doing it:

      1. Time shifting.
      2. Location shifting.
      The former is trivially done with VCRs, DVRs, etc. Now let's look at the second reason. How many people are going to want to location-shift their TV viewing from the big TV in their living room to their computer screen? A few maybe, mainly geeks and students (or student geeks). Now, how many are going to want to location shift to a mobile device?

      My mobile phone, and any relatively recent phone, can play video. It has a 1GB memory card, which at the resolution of the screen is more than enough for a number of TV shows. I also own a Nokia 770, and an iPod (my iPod is pre-video, but the point stands). Any of these devices can play DRM-free MPEG-4 video. The 770, or a modern iPod would be a great device for putting TV shows on to watch on the bus or train (for example).

      The decision to go with Microsoft's DRM is that Microsoft have the largest chunk of the desktop market, but they have very little presence in the mobile arena. There are a few MS Smartphones, and maybe a few Zunes (I don't think they're released here yet, but someone might have imported one). Now, imagine how this landscape would change if the only mobile devices that could play BBC TV for the next two years were those with a Microsoft OS. Where do you think Nokia/Sony Ericsson/etc phones would be if the Microsoft ones could play BBC TV shows but theirs couldn't? What about the iPod? There isn't much legal video content around (the iTunes store in the UK has very little). Releasing BBC shows in a Zune-friendly format would very rapidly mean that there was a lot of (taxpayer-funded) content for the Zune that wouldn't work with the iPod (or any other players).

      Microsoft is already being prosecuted by the EU for attempting to use its desktop monopoly to gain a media format monopoly. It beggars belief that tax-payers' money from an EU member state would be spent re-enforcing this monopoly.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by Virgil+Tibbs · · Score: 1

      just for the record: the bbc is not a government agency providing a public service
      much like different train companys operate on the same track

      --
      www.tdobson.net #### Dare to Dream #### blog.tdobson.net
    7. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by PMBjornerud · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There isn't much legal video content around (the iTunes store in the UK has very little). As a pirate, I've been watching BBC programs on my phone for over a year. Ironic.

      Being able to do it legally would probably take decades. Escpecially since I'm not British. Implementing a service that is less useful than piracy is just silly. Make them freely availiable, and I will happily pay for excellent shows!

      I guess I should send them an email and thank them heartfully for their shows, then ask them how to pay for it. Piracy privides me with open formats in high quality and is really user-friendly. All that is missing is some way for me to plop them my cash.
      --
      I lost my sig.
    8. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      There's no justifying the social cost of business method patents, which is what software patents ultimately are.

      No, software patents are patents on math, not business methods. They're still unjustifiable bullshit, but for a slightly different reason than you say.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    9. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by Conor+Turton · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what the question means, but a government agency publishing things in a format that's owned by one company is pushing that company's fortune at the expense of all others. The BBC is not a government agency. It is a corporation in it's own right with a mandate from the Government.
      --
      Conor "You're not married,you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart
    10. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry... you are actually stealing something there that I have actually payed money for with my TV license. Since you don't actually live in the UK you don't have any entitlement to them at all - unlike what the debate is actually about which is Linux etc users not being able to watch BBC TV that they have payed for on their PC. If you want to pay them, buy a TV license - but stop stealing what I have payed for.

    11. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be a reasonable argument if he had a way to pay. You can't buy a TV licence if you don't live in the UK.

    12. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by DaveHowe · · Score: 1
      The difference is borderline; the BBC is a corporation, but one given a government monopoly on broadcast radio and tv, and the ability to impose a (government set) tax (currently a bit over $200/year) for the right to own receiver equipment. This they farm out to a third company, who pursue an guilty-until-proven-innocent approach of billing every household in the country unless they can prove they don't own a set.

      In theory, the government has no control over the BBC as it is an independent corporation; that said, they have to go cap in hand to ask for an increase to their tax, and when the BBC published obvious conclusions regarding a government enquiry which explicitly excluded the most obvious culprits from its terms and purview, the senior governers who chose to publish were forced to resign.

      --
      -=DaveHowe=-
    13. Re:No, and that's what the complaint if for. by PMBjornerud · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

      The core of this issue that it is extremely easy for me to get the conent. But getting it legally is downright impossible.

      Except for hoping the show would eventually get released on a DVD, then buy that and rip it to a file I could play on my phone. Though for countries with any DMCA-type law, I guess even that would still be illegal...

      Heck. IMO, media companies should link to torrents then sell access to dedicated, high-speed servers. Then I could buy something that makes sense. And I'd happily decimate my upload speed for torrent. Give people a reasonable way to pay for their content, and they'll not want to share it for free. Just as the grandparent is annoyed by me watching "his" TV shows.

      --
      I lost my sig.
  17. No it's okay by matt+me · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They're going to bring a Mac client as well, which means that *everyone* will be able to watch TV. That's how they report the story.

    1. Re:No it's okay by Black-Man · · Score: 1

      Sure they will. There are countless of web sites where Mac's are left out due to WMV. Its about time somebody stands up against this BS.

    2. Re:No it's okay by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Why would a Mac be left out due to WMV? Perhaps due to DRM but the format itself works on pretty much everything these days. Did Apple intentionally pull support from Quicktime for it? Seems silly given that roughly 800 million computers out there have Windows Media Player.

    3. Re:No it's okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Had you actually checked the subject before posting it would be quite clear to you that Microsoft has all but abandoned WMP [http://www.microsoft.com/mac/otherproducts/otherp roducts.aspx?pid=windowsmedia] on the Mac platform. The only way to play WMV files on a Mac are via a 3rd party tool. This has the restriction of not being able to play DRM'd files at all.

    4. Re:No it's okay by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Had you actually read my post you would have seen I was talking about Quicktime which had support for WMV built-in since WMV 6 came out. I knew MS stopped development but there is WMV support all over and on almost every platform.

    5. Re:No it's okay by makomk · · Score: 1

      Had you RTFA, you would know that the downloads in question are in fact heavily DRMed WMVs. (I think there's even native Linux players for non-DRMed WMV files these days, although they can't play everything, but DRMed ones are still Windows only and probably always will be).

    6. Re:No it's okay by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Except that you said exactly the same thing as I said. Thank you for agreeing with me. The problem is with the DRM and not WMV.

    7. Re:No it's okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quicktime for Mac, as shipped by Apple, DOES NOT support WMV/WMA in any form or shape, DRMed or not.

      To play WMV files, Mac users must download separate component[0] from Telestream (note: not Microsoft, but 3rd party). Basic simple-playback-only version is free, all others are paid. All versions are capable playing only non-DRM media and they don't support all codecs that WMP does (screen video codec and speech audio codec spring into mind). Also, to say it simply, these components suck. They read entire video file into memory before starting playback.

      For Linux users, the situation is even more complicated. WMA, WMV 1 and WMV 3 (VC-1) streams can be decoded by ffmpeg. The thing is, no distribution is going to ship ffmpeg or its libavcodec. In US, it would break almost every single codec patent in existence.

      Somewhere in other thread you mentioned, that you phone can play windows media. Is it windows mobile phone, by the chance? Because mine, Symbian-based, can't play windows media. It can play real video though.

      Given this situation, it is not any wonder, that sites like youtube and google video went with flash.

      ---
      [0] in Quicktime vocabulary, component is about equivalent to filter in directshow. It can be codec, but it can be something else that does something with media. In this case, I'm talking about codec.

    8. Re:No it's okay by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      That's funny because the G5 we have in-house encodes WMV files and simply doesn't care what format the video is in. I have no trouble going to sites with Ubuntu or SUSE and playing WMV videos either. As I originally said, DRM is the issue, not the WMV itself.

      As for phone support, I have the Samsung A900 as well as a Treo 700w which does have Windows Mobile. Both support it though.

      Furthermore, it's not difficult for a server to give out streams in multiple formats. The Niagara SCX we employ here has no trouble throwing out Quicktime, Real Media, or WMV, or any number of other formats. Most other production broadcast equipment I've seen does the same thing. Flash is getting pretty ubiquitous these days but it's no wonder the sites with money develop a flash solution and the sites with a lot less go with other file formats.

      A lot of the content industry could learn a lot from the porn industry if they were willing to listen. They really know how to get their product to people. Is it any wonder they often use WMV?

    9. Re:No it's okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As for phone support, I have the Samsung A900 as well as a Treo 700w which does have Windows Mobile. Both support it though.

      You keep on making these claims that all sorts of devices that you have can play WMV files. Interestingly, even the manufacturers disagree with you. I'm sure you'll just say that they're wrong and they don't know what they're talking about, though.

    10. Re:No it's okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your G5s can encode WMVs because your company bought this: http://flip4mac.com/wmv.htm - or it was bundled with some software you use, it comes with Sorensons' Squeeze or Telestreams' Episode Pro, for example.

      Check you /Library/Quicktime folder. You will find files "Flip4Mac WMV Export.component" and "Flip4Mac WMV Import.component". Both are (c) Telestream. You won't find these component on vanilla macs, as shipped by Apple.

      WRT Linux, I don't have problem playing most WMV either (with exception of WMV2 - windows dlls don't work in x64). But then, I know how to install mplayer/vlc/xine, but ordinary users can't do this. Additionaly, it is of questionable legality in some (read: US and Japan) countries.

      Mobile phones were dealt with AC above, so I will skip it.

      Porn industry is not very good model. Yes, they have amazing capability to use today's technology, but they don't have any long term strategy and what's most important: their decision "is cheap". If it turns being disaster, nothing happens, just change course. They are not commited to anything. If Beeb, or any corporation went this way, you would see a lot of fallen heads.

  18. Hmmm by El+Lobo · · Score: 0

    The same way if they will use ANY format, wav, mp3, ogg, fuckit, mp4 or whatever, there is the same posibility to be sued. No format is perfect and there will always people unhappy about the used format. So stop playing games "my daddy is stonger than yours" and stop crying a river and be a man once in your life and let everybody choose the freaking format they want, be it open, close, yellow , sour or whatever they want. Freedom is NOT about what you think is better for everybody. Freedon is about accepting that people are free to do what they want even if it's not the best for the majority. So shut the f**** off. What? You pay taxes and don't want that format? So do I and I don't care in this case. Repeat after me: you are not the only one...

    --
    It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
  19. "public broadcasting" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BBC: "In order to maximize public value, the BBC must balance extending access to content with the need to maintain the interests of [private] rights holder"

    I have asked PBS the same following question:

    How do I donate to support public media only. (Not supporting the rent paid for media data that is held in private, and strictly prohibited from public viewing without access fees during the 95 year monopoly)

    The point of PBS is becoming unknown to me, with commercials for ADM, Walmart and Microsoft, and broadcasting privately owned works from companies such as Sony.

    Anyone know what the public replacement of PBS and BBC is?

  20. Re:What BS by Frankie70 · · Score: 1

    So if I sit in Britain & buy an NTSC TV & pay for the TV license, then BBC
    should be forced to broadcast in NTSC also for me.

  21. So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Assuming they need to control the content - 'cos otherwise DVD sales etc are dead, hence lost revenue, hence more expensive TV licensing in the UK, ie more tax - what SHOULD they use?

    m4v? Um, no.... not open enough
    Ogg? No DRM
    MPEG? No DRM
    WMV? Tried that
    Real? PleaseForTheLoveOfGodNoMoreRealSpyware
    divx? no DRM?

    Not much left, really....

    So, OSS fan boi's, enough of the "dont use WMV" - what SHOULD they use? And things without come form of control dont count :)

    1. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your assumption is wrong. DRM does not increase sales.

      Since BBC is supposed to resemble public tv, shouldn't they be showing things that are more open for public viewing? (instead of media, whose "owners" demand strict control to prevent the extra public access).

      In general, it is public interest and a 95 year copyright publishing monopoly that generates sales, not DRM.

    2. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by asuffield · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Assuming they need to control the content - 'cos otherwise DVD sales etc are dead, hence lost revenue, hence more expensive TV licensing in the UK


      The BBC already broadcasts their programming, in MPEG-2 at more or less DVD quality, unencrypted, over the public airwaves, all over the UK - in the form of digital terrestrial television. This is their primary reason for existence. There is no sight or sign of DRM anywhere near it. It is utterly trivial to record this with a computer and DVB capture card, hardware which is cheaply and widely available. Most popular BBC programmes are already recorded in this fashion and posted on thepiratebay.org within 12 hours.

      This is the same content that they are now releasing onto the internet. It is quite obvious that if they didn't need DRM to broadcast it over radio in the first place, they don't need DRM to broadcast exactly the same stuff again over IP. It is further obvious that the simplest thing for them to do would be to use exactly the same codec that they are already using. There is no apparent reason why they should suddenly propose a far more limited and ineffective system just because the carrier system is IP rather than radio.

      It is pretty obvious that Microsoft is involved in this one somewhere, and that's almost certainly illegal.

      No amount of DRM on the IP version is going to have any effect at all on the material available on TPB, because all the content is already on the net and will continue to be posted there from the digital terrestrial broadcasts (no proposals are currently being made to post any of the BBC's considerable archive of material on the net, only some of the things which are currently being broadcast). The quality is better in the terrestrial broadcasts than in the iplayer system anyway, so iplayer is never going to be used as a source for TPB when the far better DVB version is readily available. The entire proposal is retarded: they are seriously suggesting a service which is lower quality, less convenient, and already less popular than TPB, with DRM crippling thrown in just to make it entirely unwanted. It's a complete waste of time and money, because everybody with an interest will just keep using TPB instead.
    3. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of Europe can pick the satellite signal up for free on Astra 2D...

    4. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by baboonlogic · · Score: 1

      There is no sight or sign of DRM anywhere near it

      The BBC charges Indian cable operators for being able to broadcast some (all?) of the BBC channels in India. These operators will be pretty pissed without that DRM. Likely, the situation is the same over all the Commonwealth.

    5. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Real Player is no longer the POS it once was and is now slimmer and spyware free.

      I use it on Linux because its the only player with correct color callibration for my laptop where the colors are not too dark and are richer. I have even installed the latest version on a windows system and it showed no signs of malware and it was lean and mean compared to Quicktime and ms media player.

      But the problem is DRM. DRM in itself means we can not control it so a corporation decides what we use and that is almost always IE/Windows because its what everyone else uses. Firefox can not have a chance if IE is needed to listen to music on yahoo or watch shows on the BBC.

      The BBC is a tax payer funded community media. Why should it cater to DRM and pleasing MS? If they want to make revenue off of shows then fine but at least put their news portion on non drm like CNN does. You can also add drm to ogg, mp3 or any other format by scrambling it. Real media player used to advertise this and it pissed off many users but the fact is the PHB's at the BBC will refuse anything without DRM.

    6. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by bobmarleypeople · · Score: 1

      OK so let me get this straight. The BBC is getting sued for only using WMP-DRM-ified media in its on-demand service. Right lets take a look at the rest of the on-demand world.

      Channel 4's on demand service: 4oD ----- WMP-DRM-ified
      five's on demand service: fivedownload -- WMP-DRM-ified
      LIVINGtv's on demand service ------------ WMP-DRM-ified

      Seeing a pattern? So why have these people decided to sue the BBC? Probably because the BBC have the biggest profit and the biggest market share so they'll be more inclined to pay the OSC to shut the hell up, and that's even if the OSC even win (which they probably won't).

      "The OSC insists that on demand streaming, or DRM-free downloads would be more in the public interest than an OS-specific format." Too right they would. There is a tiny, tiny problem called file sharing. These DRM-free files will fly away across the P2P networks and spread, then of course the copyright companies will moan that the files infringe copyright. Besides, these so called "people that must buy a new computer to view the downloads" are still a very small proportion of the world. These people are people who are still playing pong on their teleboxes and won't be bothered about downloading shows. If you're referring to Apple Mac users, they probably have either another computer with Windows elsewhere in the house, or bootcamp set up with Windows installed, or maybe even both. Linux users can also install Windows on their computer so they'll be fine too!

      All in all, it's easy to see that the OSC are complete idiots who obviously don't pay attention to the world. As a bonus comparison, here's a note of the advertising the on demand services have:

      4oD - regular voice-overs and promos on channel 4, E4, more4 and occasionally Film4.
      fivedownload - occasional voice-overs and promos after episodes of CSI, Prison Break and other shows.
      BBC iPlayer - none

      Why not focus on the services that are ALREADY FUNCTIONING!

    7. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ok, here's my own list:

      Channel 4 - Commercial
      Five - Commercial
      LivingTV - Commercial
      BBC - Public funded non profit

      Now do you see why people are allowed to be annoyed at their decision to lock people into using Windows to view their content? With the other services you can choose not to watch it and therefore not pay for it by watching the adverts. With the BBC we (in the UK) have already paid for it so we're allowed a greater expectation of being allowed to view it how we see best and not to be penalised for not using Windows.

    8. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Seeing a pattern? So why have these people decided to sue the BBC? Channel 4 are funded by advertising. Channel 5 are funded by advertising. Living TV is... something I've never heard of, but I'm going to guess it's funded by advertising. If I don't watch their MS DRM'd content, then they have lower viewership figures, and so get less money. This is how the free market works (ignoring, for the moment, the fact that Microsoft is being prosecuted by the EU for attempting to use their OS monopoly to gain a DRM/video format monopoly).

      The BBC are funded by a tax. If I don't watch the MS DRM'd content they provide, then they get exactly the same amount of money as if I did.

      There is a tiny, tiny problem called file sharing. These DRM-free files will fly away across the P2P networks and spread, then of course the copyright companies will moan that the files infringe copyright. We the license payers funded the production of these programs. It should be up to us to decide whether this is a problem. Are you going to bring up the issue of content not produced by the BBC? The solution there is simple; don't put it on the on-demand service in the first place.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by MrSteveSD · · Score: 1

      It is utterly trivial to record this with a computer and DVB capture card, hardware which is cheaply and widely available.

      If only that were true with an indoor aerial. A thin piece of paper can stop the signal!
    10. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1
      So, OSS fan boi's, enough of the "dont use WMV" - what SHOULD they use? And things without come form of control dont count :)

      They should use nothing.

      That's because as a British citizen, I pay a yearly license fee that goes towards the funding of the BBC to make TV and radio programming - something I whole-heartedly support if it keeps the BBC advert free.

      Therefore, I've aleady "bought" those programs once and should therefore be free to use them as I see fit - and in an unrestricted fashion since, as a license fee payer, I'm also primarily a Linux user.

      Incidentally, I happily buy BBC DVDs and video/hard-disk recorders have not killed DVD sales so far.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    11. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by GerryHattrick · · Score: 1

      It's sad that 'the Beeb' thinks that only Msft can do what they want, but worth considering WHY they might be compelled to specify DRM of some kind. For example, lots of contributors to programmes have contracts involving 'repeat fees'. Even if you change that now, it wouldn't affect 'done deals' on the vast archive.

      So probably the BBC has to show respect for such contracts by somehow using 'best efforts' to control systematic redistribution (or at least being able to claim that they are trying). Sure TPB is a gaping hole, but just because expert poachers sometimes outwit the gamekeeper doesn't mean he can tell his boss he's invited the whole village to shoot free.

      Think about that uncomfortable reality and THEN constructively suggest a better way.

    12. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mpeg2? Its patent free, does basically a reasonable job and afaik is playable on every platform and would be a better "interim" solution unitl they come up with something better. Failing that they could use Ogg Vorbis and put a small amount of their vast millions into developing it in any way they think it needs developing. Organisations like the BBC have the capacity to provide leadership for the public good. There are so many video formats. How many do we really need? Its a mature technology now so the advantages of one over another are not that great and the value of one open standard outweighs any minor advantages or disadvantages in terms of quality. jpg and png seem good enough standards for stil images so why not an equivalent for moving pictures? If companies can code superior products that operate on standard data formats they will gain competitive advantage. Locking people into data formats has had its day.

    13. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you haven't bought any programmes at all. You have to remember that the BBC doesn't own everything it broadcast. I think this is a real problem, everyone assumes the BBC does and hence paying your licence fee means you should have access to it all. Problem is the BBC can't release everything because they don't have the rights to do so or the trust won't let them (like removing the ability to download a series).

      For more info on DRM and the BBC check this out http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/02/b bc_backstage_p_1.html. Maybe if enough people listen to the discussion there they'll realise the problem the BBC has with releasing the content they broadcast.

    14. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you haven't bought any programmes at all. You have to remember that the BBC doesn't own everything it broadcast.

      In that case, they must have bought the right to broadcast those programmes from the owner. And where does that money come from, I wonder? Hmmm....

      (And besides, "not everything" != "none at all".)
    15. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by asuffield · · Score: 1

      So probably the BBC has to show respect for such contracts by somehow using 'best efforts' to control systematic redistribution (or at least being able to claim that they are trying). Sure TPB is a gaping hole, but just because expert poachers sometimes outwit the gamekeeper doesn't mean he can tell his boss he's invited the whole village to shoot free.


      So your argument is that the BBC's current broadcasting system doesn't stop people from freely watching the content, and that's okay, but that their new iplayer system must attempt to do more to stop them because otherwise people might do exactly the same things that they are already doing, and that would somehow... no, I can't even keep going, this is just too absurd.

      There is no appreciable difference between the new system and the current system, except that the current system is larger, carries even more content, has better quality, and is being systematically redistributed right now. Why is it that only the new system "must have DRM"? Why should the new system use MS crippleware when the bigger, better, more important system is open to all?
    16. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by GerryHattrick · · Score: 1

      I don't think I disagree with you at all. The way I (carefully) worded it was trying to understand whatever contractual logic they might think they have, the better then to avoid the kind of lockup that seems to be proposed - investigating "So what SHOULD they use?". Big institutions are seldom truly logical, but it helps to understand what they think are their imperatives. I wonder why else they might have got into this hole. Any theories from a brave AC who works there?

    17. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by asuffield · · Score: 2

      Seeing a pattern? So why have these people decided to sue the BBC? Probably because the BBC have the biggest profit and the biggest market share so they'll be more inclined to pay the OSC to shut the hell up, and that's even if the OSC even win (which they probably won't).


      I'm sorry, are you from another planet? The BBC is not a business, it's a public service operating under special charter from the UK government. They don't make disposable profits, because they don't have any owners to pay them to: every penny they make is spent directly on producing more media for the British public, and they aren't allowed to spend it on anything else. As a result, they have no real profit margins, so they have the least money available. Suing them for money is a waste of time - they are not the ones with "deep pockets", they are the ones who, by law and charter, have no pockets at all.

      The OSC are not asking for money, they're asking for them to stop. No money is likely to change hands as a result of this (except to the lawyers, obviously); if the OSC win, all they will get is the injunction that they ask for.

      There is a tiny, tiny problem called file sharing. These DRM-free files will fly away across the P2P networks and spread


      You clearly did not read the post that you were replying to. The BBC already publishes all their content DRM-free, and it's already all available on "P2P" networks. Nobody is even so much as suggesting that this should change. This is clearly not about file sharing. It's pretty obviously about Microsoft trying to generate more lock-in to their platform, and that's a breach of anti-trust laws (and the BBC's charter, they are explicitly not allowed to promote any company or product, even if it is otherwise legal for them to do so).

      Besides which, there is absolutely nothing wrong with BBC-produced content being put on P2P networks. It may not even be illegal in many cases (the BBC could certainly never justify suing any British citizen for it): much of that content has already been fully paid for by UK citizens, and nobody gets paid when the BBC screens it again, in any medium (actors get paid again for repeats on a few things, but not most of the stuff the BBC has in its archives).
    18. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've just tested that by putting ~435 thin bits of paper (bound in a hard cover, commonly known as a book) in front of my indoor aerial and remarkably I still get good reception with my DVB card.

    19. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, by paying your yearly license fee it allows you to view the programme on point of transmission by the broadcaster.

      As the BBC also broadcasts programmes made by independent producers who may have funding from alternate sources isn't it fair that the producers are allowed/or have to pursue other means of recouping their own investment through sales to otherbroadcasters/DVD revenue.

    20. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can assure you that this has already been pointed out to them during their consultation phase - however it seems that their choice of DRM and MS only was not up for debate.

    21. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by asuffield · · Score: 1

      The way I (carefully) worded it was trying to understand whatever contractual logic they might think they have, the better then to avoid the kind of lockup that seems to be proposed - investigating "So what SHOULD they use?". Big institutions are seldom truly logical, but it helps to understand what they think are their imperatives. I wonder why else they might have got into this hole.


      Given how obvious it is that the DRM argument doesn't hold water, I'm pretty sure that it's a red herring, intended to distract us from what is really going on. If you instead ask "Why would Microsoft want the BBC to be doing this?" then it is reasonably obvious what has happened here - they have done this so many times in the past that there's really no question as to whether they might have done it again.

      How they conned the BBC into going along with it isn't immediately apparent, but it's not particularly important either.
    22. Re:So what SHOULD they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate DRM as much as you do, and will always defeat it. No friend of the Beeb either, having to pay their ransom for stuff I'd never watch, or listen to on over-compressed digital. But for them the technical DRM argument MAY hold water, because they 'have to be seen to' be protecting their (generally-meanly) contracted contributors. They're all-too-well-worth suing otherwise. So what exactly is it that they feel that they need? Disclose the spec. and let us all help. Far too often we Brits buy into the US's 'we sell you a solution' pitch, without realising we've never properly done the spec. - suppliers profit! (until fired in disgrace).

      The BBC News website (on one or two links) recently trialled some clips that actually worked better than their typical Zoeotrope (I think it was Flash), and asked for feedback. A few years ago they posted some 'i-something' stuff (with a trial they then withdrew) which helps understand what they are after. We should get constructive - time to move from coherers to crystals, folks...

  22. Needs to go further. by twitter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Governments, funded by the PUBLIC should put their stuff in PUBLIC format.

    and when software patents get in the way, the PUBLIC should demand that law serve the PUBLIC interest. Software patents are bogus and they are the only reason there's a format problem in the first place.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:Needs to go further. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, if there had never been patents perhaps there would have been minimal economic motivation to create the technology that requires the format.

    2. Re:Needs to go further. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      The UK, where the BBC is based, does not have software patents. The issue is primarily one of protecting access to material in a way that is based on technology and corporate policy, not on existing copyright law or patents.

      Their funding is also pretty odd. The BBC "license fee" would be called a tax almost anywhere else in the world: but the British tendency to strange taxes has led to trouble for them before, including the tea taxes that led to the Boston Tea Party.

  23. Okay, from a view across the pond by ducomputergeek · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I find this interesting that they are debating the formats and everything, yet US broadcasters have found ways of streaming online (through flash video?) okay. And since these are private enterprises, I'd think they'd be even more concerned with protecting IP. Granted, there are usually a couple 30 second ads (at least with Lost) you have to set through, but none the less they've found a way.

    Now on the flip side, these are private enterprises and can do pretty much whatever the hell they want in terms of formats, which usually means finding a way to reach the largest audience possible while still protecting the content. But it seems to me that as conventional TV dies, from DVR's and competition from cable/sat channels, they are trying to expand viewer ship and trying to find what works online. I'm not sure anyone's got it quite figured out yet, but are trying.

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  24. illegal alternatives provide the best service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So here I am thinking that as I am forced to pay towards subsidising Microsoft!!

    While using Linux I'll have to download nice mpeg4/xvid copies of broadcast BBC programs via bit torrent. Or even get a digital tuner and start providing my own. This will give me copies of the programs that will not 'time out' on me, are available in full resolution and encoded using DRM free software.

    Those among my countrymen who genuinely still respect and understand the principle of the BBC will join me in this. Those that don't will continue to cough up their hard earned for no reason other than the fact that they now have more bovine tendencies in them than any real Brit could tolerate.

  25. Re:What BS by Chris_Keene · · Score: 1

    "I see, and do you happen to be an elected government that pays for running that Website by collecting tax dollars from the people (at gunpoint if need be)? I didn't think so."

    It's the BBC, not the Government. They may have a Royal Charter, and they may receive funding from a TV licence fee (not a tax as such, it is my choice if i have a TV) the technicalities of which are set up via acts of parliment, but not government.

    I am not aware of people being held at gunpoint to pay the licence fee (remember not even out Police carry guns except for a few special units).

    Chris

    --
    You will forget this sig before you next see it
  26. Re:What BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

    So if I sit in Britain & buy an NTSC TV & pay for the TV license, then BBC should be forced to broadcast in NTSC also for me.

    Not at all. PAL (which they use) is a standard not tied to any one company. WMA is a proprietary format, wholly owned and controlled by one company. Further, that company has been convicted of criminal actions in illegally forcing that format onto consumers. Do you see the distinction? The BBC should not be forced to provide any given format, but they should be required to provide a format that is not tied to and profits one given company, especially not a criminal one. The can provide WMA all they want, but only if they also support other proprietary formats from competitors; otherwise they are rewarding a monopolist for criminal acts while at the same time denying access to some citizens who have paid the same amount of money. Or, they could simply support an open format that any company is free to implement, which is probably what any tax funded organization should be doing.

  27. Re:What BS by grcumb · · Score: 1

    So if I sit in Britain & buy an NTSC TV & pay for the TV license, then BBC
    should be forced to broadcast in NTSC also for me.

    Uh, no. PAL is a standard format mandated by the relevant bodies. People are only asking that the BBC choose one standard, not that they support the standard that I arbitrarily decide to use tomorrow.

    WMV is not encoded using any formally recognised and platform-neutral codec, and it's DRM-locked. Whatever its benefits, the BBC should know better than to place their customers at the disposal of a single commercial entity, and their social/historical legacy at the mercy of a corporate body whose sole reason for existence is profit.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  28. Re:What BS by hedwards · · Score: 1

    Would an NTSC set be subject to the TV tax? I know that the TV tax is far reaching, and doesn't strictly speaking restrict itself to just TV owners, but with equipment that is wholly unable to deal with the signal, would that still come under the tax?

    It is largely moot, as the government over there appears to be moving towards an internet tax scheme which would be based upon computer ownership rather than TV ownership. I don't know if that ever passed, but it would be much simpler to tax.

    I've noticed that if there are two things that people in the UK seem to like its absurdly long ques and taxing things indiscriminately.

  29. Re:What BS by NexusTw1n · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Have you complained about Radio 1's enhanced podcasts, only viewable on iPods?

    If not, why not?

    It is after all, a proprietary format, wholly owned and controlled by one company, which is why Creative and MS Mp3 players can't play the content.

    The BBC is a multimedia company, experimenting and playing with many formats to see what works, and what is popular. That technological interest from a TV company should be celebrated not whined about.

    --
    It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
  30. It's closed, and it's broken by gjuk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The thing is a prime example of bad bad technology. I'm fortunate enough to be a trial user. Only, I've never actually used it. I can't. I've tried and tried but it just doesn't work.

    It started badly - it refuses to accept registrations via firefox (no technology issue - just a browser check which barfs). Once I switched to IE, it let me go further - registration followed by the download of a .exe. Firing up the .exe I had to reregister. Multiple times. And got no further. Some days later, an apology email from the BBC explaining that they'd sent the wrong login details.

    So I tried again, and after much mucking about, finally got in. The UI is very very bad - but I navigated to my favourite programme, which claimed it had episodes available - but once clicked stated none. So I went for my second favourite programme - same again. And so on.

    So - two weeks after first receiving an invitation to give up; after switching browsers, downloading software, installing it, changing my media settings, registering multiple times, and clicking through a clunky interface multiple times, all to no avail, I gave up.

    If the bbc were working in an open way - maybe, just maybe, they'd have access to a wider range of talents - or perhaps competing suppliers and technology platforms - and have delivered a usable product. As it is, we're all subject to two monopolies, who'll slowly and cumbersomely work towards a semi-acceptable solution at great cost. And in doing so, the BBC will help Microsoft maintain its hegemony - remember - it wouldn't let us use Firefox just to register and download the software.... defend that.

    1. Re:It's closed, and it's broken by drewlake2000 · · Score: 1

      I have used this trial and the one last year - the BBC has stated that only a few selected programmes will be available at the start of the trial and more will be available later. As for the DRM issue, I can see that the BBC has need to protect it's assets and those of the independent companies who produce programmes. This, however, does not sit well with many OSS advocates, and since the BBC has as they say "a unique way of funding" through the licence fee they can afford to give away the end product. All 'Auntie' needs to do is recompense the independent producers for the programmes. The system, at the moment is password protected, I'm sure that a unique login and password could be generated and printed on the licence to stop anyone who hasn't paid from gaining access.

    2. Re:It's closed, and it's broken by Quietly_Confident · · Score: 1

      I'm beta testing iPlayer too and am having similar problems. No Firefox support, so using IE I try to download the iPlayer app only to be challenged for my BBC supplied username/password.. and get the error 'Sorry your password is too short'. Not been able to watch anything as yet.

      The service is being taken offline for 24 hours on Monday to deploy an upgrade according to the latest email from the BBC.
      --
      http://www.doreymedia.com - Accessible Web Design in Surrey UK
    3. Re:It's closed, and it's broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see that the BBC has need to protect it's assets and those of the independent companies who produce programmes.

      This is a total red herring. The BBC broadcasts 4 channels of unencrypted MPEG2 to almost everyone in the UK nearly 24 hours a day via Freeview -- and even more channels of radio.

      This has nothing to do with piracy - it never does. I thought slashdot readers would know that by now.

  31. Leave the BBC alone by kkiller · · Score: 2, Interesting

    However much I'd love the beeb to be using a opensource version of the iPlayer, they have bigger fish to fry right now than this. The BBC Trust process has meant that the iPlayer is incredibly late, considering its been in planning for several years. More legal trouble could mean the Player never leaves beta at all - leaving the BBC even more irrelevant. In addition, each move the Beeb makes is analysed and scrutinised by a jealous commercial opposition who see new markets which the BBC has picked up and feel threatened by a well-funded, well liked public broadcasting upping the benchmark. It never used to be a problem but it has already seen the death of BBC Jam - the online schools service, leaving their education department in limbo - and has meant that iPlayer is not the product that was originally intended. The ability to download a series has been ripped out, for example.

    Now the open source movement wants to harass them as well? This needs to stop. In time the BBC will realise that the Kontiki platform is poor, sucks away bandwidth without asking and renders all their material unportable. They can do that on their own terms with consultation from their users - they do not need more legal trouble which will take up time and leave the BBC even more vulnerable. The public corporation is not the for-profit corporation's bitch.

    1. Re:Leave the BBC alone by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      Which is more important to you; convenient TV, or preventing Microsoft (aided by the BBC) leveraging their desktop monopoly to gain a monopoly in the video format and then mobile markets in the UK?

      This is a serious question, and I'm honestly curious. Perhaps TV is less important to me than it is to you, but it doesn't seem worth it to me. If the cost of the iPlayer is letting Microsoft have the mobile phone and mobile media player markets, then I would rather not have the iPlayer.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:Leave the BBC alone by kkiller · · Score: 1

      But that's currently not even an issue with the iPlayer - which barely works on desktop PCs let alone mobile media players. The issue of convenient TV is not at stake - rather I would prefer it if the open source community took their legal battles to firms which weren't beleaguered public service broadcasters which, like I say, have enough problems to deal with (a reduced licence fee settlement, impending cuts, harrasment over whether the BBC is impartial or not, a educational department stuck in stasis, a new bureaucracy which checks and double checks anything before the BBC can go ahead with a change) without yet again having to withdraw a service because its annoyed a part of the business community. 4oD and Sky also use this Knotiki and WMV DRM, but noises been made about that? I would expect this from predatory parts of the media who want the BBC's audience by other means than developing content worth watching or listening, but not the open source community.

    3. Re:Leave the BBC alone by burritoKing · · Score: 1

      I think you are missing the point. As you state the BBC is a public service, it's funded by an enforced license payment (if you own a television or radio it is a criminal offense not to have a license) So in theory I have already paid for the content, if the iPlayer goes ahead in it's current format then I, like many others, are being locked out of content for which they have already paid for. This hardly seems fair.

      You cannot draw a comparison between 4OD, Sky and the BBC. The first two are commercial entities, and neither are funded by a "tax" I can choose to pay for sky. C4 get generates its revenue from adverts. I am strongly against DRM, so all I can do in those cases if refuse to use their services.However by law I am mandated to pay for the service the BBC offers. So I wish to make full use of it.

  32. Re:What BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

    Have you complained about Radio 1's enhanced podcasts, only viewable on iPods?

    No.

    If not, why not?

    Because I'd never heard of them and am not much of a complainer.

    It is after all, a proprietary format, wholly owned and controlled by one company, which is why Creative and MS Mp3 players can't play the content.

    Actually, they claim to support several different company's players on the Web site. The only proprietary format I see is Realplayer. I disagree with using that format almost as much as I disagree with WMA. Both are closed and proprietary to one company instead of standards. The only difference is real has not been convicted of crimes with regard to promoting said format.

    The BBC is a multimedia company, experimenting and playing with many formats to see what works, and what is popular.

    The BBC is funded by the government with money that is not collected as donations, but by force of law. As such, they take on more responsibilities than a wholly private company. Just as I would not support a government funded agency distributing patented GM grain to the poor to grow, I don't support locking them in to a given type of media. The BBC has a responsibility to the people and that includes supporting standard formats that we can be assured will be playable to posterity and which promote the free market.

    That technological interest from a TV company should be celebrated not whined about.

    Would you then support the government moving to all nonstandard nuts and bolts for vehicles, whose pattern is patented by one particular company? Would you vote for a bill to fund such an endeavor? Should the government be applauded for taking an interest in new (inferior) technology like the BBC is or should they be reviled for their shortsightedness?

  33. Re:What BS by janrinok · · Score: 1

    Your license fee is because you own ' .... an apparatus capable of receiving television broadcast transmissions...'. It doesn't specify any particular channel (BBC, ITV, Sky etc) or any particular format (PAL, NTSC etc). If you own a TV - or some device capable of receiving TV programs e.g. a video tape recorder) you need to have a license. The license fee is paid to the Government. They elect to use the money raised to partially fund the BBC providing that it complies with it charter under which it "educates, entertains and informs" and provides other public service broadcasts.

    The streaming via the internet is NOT a TV broadcast, it is the transmission of a program using the internet. Your license fee is actually irrelevant in this instance and the BBC is, unfortunately, free to use any DRM or format it chooses for its internet streams. While I sympathise, and strongly agree with, your sentiment I'm prepared to bet that it will not win any legal battles in this particular case.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  34. Re:What BS by janrinok · · Score: 1

    Yes, a license is required for an NTSC set. See my post below, but a short quote here "Your license fee is because you own ' .... an apparatus capable of receiving television broadcast transmissions...'. It doesn't specify any particular channel (BBC, ITV, Sky etc) or any particular format (PAL, NTSC etc)." After all, converting from one format to another is relatively simple i.e. a few microchips in many video players seems to cope with the problem without too much hassle.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  35. Re:What BS by Vancorps · · Score: 1

    You do know that WMV is just a container right? And that it is not inherently DRM-locked right? Sounds like your gripe is with the DRM and not with the use of WMV. A lot of people seem to be mixing the two up. WMV files can be encoded in a lot of different ways and with free and open-source tools. What is the problem beyond DRM?

    There are over 800 million Windows machines out there, that sounds like a pretty good target to shoot for. People call me crazy though. They don't mess with you anymore after they think you're crazy.

  36. Re:What BS by PitaBred · · Score: 1

    Then how are they paying to put it on the Internet if NOT through those fees? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'd think that the BBC would be in trouble for taking people's money by force of law, doing something with it, and then not allowing them access to said content.

  37. Re:What BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

    not a tax as such, it is my choice if i have a TV

    You have a choice as to whether or not you smoke cigarettes. Does that make a tax on tobacco any less a tax?

    I am not aware of people being held at gunpoint to pay the licence fee (remember not even out Police carry guns except for a few special units).

    Try owning a TV, openly without paying your fee. Defend your right to own it without paying, to the point of offering physical resistance with a weapon to any who try to deny you your right. If you are competent enough, I guarantee it will be enforced at gunpoint.

  38. Re:What BS by jimicus · · Score: 1

    Try owning a TV, openly without paying your fee. Defend your right to own it without paying, to the point of offering physical resistance with a weapon to any who try to deny you your right. If you are competent enough, I guarantee it will be enforced at gunpoint.

    I guarantee it won't.

    They can take you to court, the court can give you a whacking great fine, the court can send bailiffs around to your house to take items to pay the fine but at no point will it be done at gunpoint.

  39. Sign the Petition by mormop · · Score: 2, Informative

    UK and ex-pats only though.

    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/iplayer/

    --
    Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
  40. Re:What BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    According to the website...

    "...to watch or record TV programmes as they are being shown on TV."

    Clearly this is not possible on an unmodified NTSC set.

  41. Re:What BS by Darth · · Score: 1

    I disagree with your conclusion.

    Based on your statements about the license fee, streaming via the internet is not a broadcast and that means that nobody is required to have a license to view the streamed content. The streaming service is still implemented and maintained with government funding. As such, and since it doesn't require a license fee, they should provide that service in a format that is accessible to all citizens of that government who wish to use it.

    I'm not British, so i don't know exactly how the whole bbc/government relationship is set up. It is possible there are aspects of that relationship that would change my view, but based on your description and the article in the summary, that's the view i've developed.

    --
    Darth --
    Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
  42. Re:What BS by janrinok · · Score: 1

    The BBC raises additional funding through a variety of channels. The BBC World broadcasts (not the World Service, which is paid for by FCO funding) is a separate business, as is the sale of CDs and other materials, including Videos, DVDs etc. They are also free to charge for their internet streaming because it is outside of the existing Charter and not one of the items funded by the Government.

    It all seems confusing (but isn't once you understand what is happening) because everyone in Britain calls the license fee a BBC tax. It isn't. You have to have a license to receive any TV broadcast from any source in any format. That license is issued by the Government and the license fee is paid to the Treasury. The Government and the BBC have a unique arrangement. The Government funds much of the BBC operation but, in return, the BBC has specific obligations to the Government. These include the broadcasting of programs to the public (which must "entertain, educate and inform") but also include various public service broadcasts which would be of great importance during a national crisis e.g. natural disaster, war, etc. The other TV channels in the UK do not have the same obligations but they would all like, of course, a chunk of the funding that is raised by TV licenses. The Government view is (or was, I could now be out of date) that if they are willing to have their programming dictated to a certain degree and accept a similar Charter to that imposed upon on the BBC then there might be something to consider. Of course they would not accept such a degree of 'interference' and the Government is quite content to keep its current relationship with the BBC. The agreement is why the BBC puts a lot of university courses on air during the night. Very few would actually pay for them but they are required to enable the BBC to fulfill the "educate" element of its charter. Those who wish to study for a degree at home (known as the Open University (OU) in the UK) can record the programs which provide valuable additional material to that available from the other OU sources.

    Whether an individual thinks that they are getting value for money varies considerably. The BBC must 'educate and inform' as well as entertain. A certain percentage of programs from the BBC are not what the average couch potato wants to watch. They might include programs on the arts, politics, science or whatever. Some criticise the BBC for this but, in fact, the BBC is simply complying with its charter. So there is a feeling amongst some (not all, by any means, and perhaps not even the majority!) that they are paying for the BBC in the form of their 'TV Tax' and they are getting programs that they don't want to watch.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  43. Re:What BS by janrinok · · Score: 1

    My video will record both/either NTSC or PAL. It is a trivial conversion.

    If you have an 'apparatus' that is designed for the reception of 'TV Broadcasts' then you need a license. I'm not saying that it is a good law, but it is the law. Feel free to challenge it in court. Others have tried it as a defence and failed in their attempt.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  44. hmmph by tHeSiD · · Score: 1

    for once .. let corporations do what they want.. instead of bitchin n moanin at everything they do...

    1. Re:hmmph by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1
      Sorry, but no can do.

      This specific corporation is funded by an obligatory (to UK TV-owning citizens) annual license fee that keeps the BBC's TV and radio programming totally advert free - incidentally I wholeheartedly support the license fee for this single reason.

      But that does mean that since I help to fund the BBC through a "tax" (since I *MUST* pay the license fee as a TV owner), then I have every right to offer an opinion on how that money should be spent.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    2. Re:hmmph by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BBC has a remit to allow as many people as possible - even poor people - to receive high quality programming. Not everyone has access to a middle-class education and the "wisdom" to choose non-Microsoft solutions.

      There are other people besides you in your country, ignorant little Brit.

  45. Re:What BS by janrinok · · Score: 1

    See my post immediately before your comment.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  46. Indeed, what BS by Foerstner · · Score: 4, Informative

    It is after all, a proprietary format, wholly owned and controlled by one company, which is why Creative and MS Mp3 players can't play the content.

    The "Enhanced Podcast" appears to be an MPEG-4 container with an AAC "track" and a still image "track."

    --
    The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
  47. NO media player. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not? BBC is actively trying to limit its listening audience it seems. Using a closed format is one more way they can deny people access to their programming:

    http://www.savebbc.org/

    BBC has pretty much stopped much of its shortwave transmissions.

    What of all those who don't even have computers or times when you might actually need the BBC, such as when the power is out, making an internet stream useless?

    BBC should stick to shortwave. For news and information, especially in hostile/remote/disconnected areas (where such information is actually NEEDED.)

  48. Formats... by sheepzilla · · Score: 1

    The BBC supposedly use a RealMedia format for their live streaming radio services too - that doesn't stop me from using VLC to listen to it: So, the question is, are the problems with proprietry formats the publisher's fault for choosing a proprietry codec, or the codec developers fault for not allowing it to be clean-room reverse engineered?

  49. Re:What BS by Darth · · Score: 1

    that post was very informative. it sounds like the bbc's funding by the government isn't really germane to the download service. The rights and obligations involved in that funding seem exclusively to apply to broadcasting programs and don't consider subsequent, non-broadcast, distribution of the same content.

    --
    Darth --
    Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
  50. Re:What BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. you don't have the pay the tax on tobacco either! Bonus to you at no extra cost.
    2. no-one will enforce the TV licence at gunpoint. They may well use firearms against you, but only becuase you are 'offering physical resistance with a weapon', the firearms officers who come for you won't care one jot whether you have a TV or not. The police don't use guns to enforce fees, they only use guns to enforce safety of the public from violent and dangerous lunatics...

  51. Re:What BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But it is not the owning but the using of that equipment for viewing or recording television broadcasts which require a license regardless of whether it is provable or not. You can own a television set and just use it to watch dvds or play games and not have to pay the fee. They may try to slap you with a fine, thinking it an excuse but it is no breach of the law on your part, only their paranoia. http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/gethelp/faqs.jsp?ques tion=1#link1

  52. Thanks to the unique way the BBC is funded... by philipmather · · Score: 0

    Their our biatch, ;^) nah, we love em.

    --
    Regards, Phil
  53. Someone would say that. by twitter · · Score: 1

    Someone posting AC with good reason speculates:

    if there had never been patents perhaps there would have been minimal economic motivation to create the technology that requires the format.

    You might as well say there's no motivation to solve math problems. The economic motivation to create moving picture formats is as blindingly obvious as the billions of dollars people spend on TV and movies every year. The "technology" to provide those things digitally is the hardware, software simply tells it how to act and is more like math or business methods than anything else. There's more than one effort to create patent free movie formats, but it's not easy because many obvious methods have been stolen. If it were not for patents, other methods to watch the patented formats would already be available. In fact, they are available in places that don't have insane patent laws. Software patents are parasitic and the BBC's dilemma exposes that fact nicely.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:Someone would say that. by anubi · · Score: 1
      Nice discussion.

      I would not go as far as to outlaw proprietary formats, any more than I would want to outlaw putting doors on movie theatres so that only paid patrons can enjoy the movie.

      Hovever, a government using proprietary protocols to communicate with the populace is a horse of a different color. They would not like it if, as an American, I sent my tax return written in Swahili. Likewise, I highly resent it when I must pay someone else, and agree to whatever terms they dictate, in order to communicate with my own government.

      The second condition is often worse than the first.

      If using public protocols was codified into LAW, then anyone providing "embrace, extend, then patent" technology to the government would force the government to abandon said software should the software require use of patented, copyrighted product before the public could communicate with them.

      What I am asking for is that Governments assume the risk of having to change out all the software interfacing to the public should Microsoft or any other private vendor start spewing copyright infringement letters to anyone just trying to communicate with their own government.

      With private companies, they can do as they will. Sometimes its not easy for someone like me to even find an internet banker or stockbroker which will use standard protocols. I had to move all my retirement accounts from a major aerospace firm when I retired after 30 years on the job because the broker handling my retirement insisted I run a Microsoft product, and I had no intention to do so.

      Dammit, I am old, have a lot of legacy stuff that works just fine, and I regard replacing my computational infrastructure with just about as much excitement as having some plumber tell me I have to replace the pipes in my house.

      Business would not get too excited with me to pay by check after I require them to sign an agreement with me holding me harmless for bounced checks. Yet business expects me to agree to EULAS that essentially say the same thing.

      Thats when my reputation becomes important. Do I have a reputation for bad checks? What kind of reputation does the software vendor have? Will he back up his promise with action...uh thats not what the EULA said.

      I note all sorts of companies in business to make that vendor's product work.

      Its like buying a certain brand name car, when the word is out that it breaks down all the time, and there's a garage on every block and scores of teenage kids in business to keep the car running - geez, a horse and buggy might be better.

      I have heard enough marketing phrases hocked out of rep-heads, unbacked with act. Example: what does "Plays for sure" mean? Or is it just three words with no meaning at all?

      Yes, I am bitter, it is because I personally take the hit for stuff that doesn't work.

      I am not a highly placed executive who has the option of delegating the mess to someone else.

      Its just been my observation that people who embrace all this finicky stuff have far better skill at finding the someone who can be convinced they are worth a paycheck than they are at doing the work.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

  54. Re:What BS by janrinok · · Score: 1

    Correct. But if they find any kind of aerial, antenna, satellite dish or cable connection then they will assume the worst and, in the past, have had a good success rate in court.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  55. DRM is snake oil. by twitter · · Score: 1

    Another poster has already pointed out that WMV is the worst of all available formats, so I'll leave that alone.

    what free, open source video format allows you the same DRM protection that is built in to WMP? I really hope you can answer this question, because you can bet that in the production of their content the BBC has entered in to some agreements that will require some form of DRM for redistribution online.

    Yet another poster has pointed out that the DRM protection built into the system is perfect, they can't watch anything at all. I really hope the person who recommended this broken technology is ready to apologize and work to fix things because you can bet that working content was part of their agreements.

    Finally, we both know that digital restrictions are snake oil, especially for something that's broadcast. If the "official" broken format video is not liberated and redistributed, many other coppies of the same content taken from the air by DVRs will quickly circumvent the problems created by WMV. These solutions will be inconvenient to the taxpaying user, but they will at least work. The BBC would be better off declaring DRM a sham and nullifying all previous commitments. Governments can do that kind of thing, because they are the ultimate keepers of copyright and the public interest to begin with. When the law violates public interests, as it so obviously does here, the law is out of whack and needs to be fixed.

    The best solution is to just release the content so it can be enjoyed and shared by the people who paid for it and own it. They could, if they wanted to, release a free software player. They have been working on that for a while and might as well throw patent concerns back across the Atlantic because they don't serve the BBC or their audience.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:DRM is snake oil. by bit+trollent · · Score: 0, Troll

      The BBC would be better off declaring DRM a sham and nullifying all previous commitments. Governments can do that kind of thing, because they are the ultimate keepers of copyright and the public interest to begin with. When the law violates public interests, as it so obviously does here, the law is out of whack and needs to be fixed.

      So the open source approach to DRM is nullifying commitments and overturning laws?

      Hmm. Well, thanks anyway. You really don't have what I need so I'm going to have to get my software from a closed source company like Microsoft or Apple. The software is still in beta, but at least the BBC doesn't have to overturn laws in order to distribute content.

    2. Re:DRM is snake oil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      twitter, I didn't know your parents were in showbiz. Why didn't you tell us?

  56. Re:What BS by grcumb · · Score: 1

    You do know that WMV is just a container right? And that it is not inherently DRM-locked right? Sounds like your gripe is with the DRM and not with the use of WMV. A lot of people seem to be mixing the two up. WMV files can be encoded in a lot of different ways and with free and open-source tools. What is the problem beyond DRM?

    DRM is an issue, but the underlying problem is vendor lock-in. Microsoft has already decided not to support Windows Media Player on the Mac. I won't assume malice here; I honestly think they just made a business decision. But that's the danger right there. When the vendor decides something isn't profitable any more, they no longer have any incentive to support a product, file format, what have you.

    The BBC's interests are elsewhere. They need to operate in a cost-effective manner, true, but their ultimate responsibility is to promote and make accessible all things good about British culture. So even when Microsoft has long since moved on to bigger and better things than WMV, the BBC will still have a responsibility to make episodes of Brideshead Revisited and Fawlty Towers accessible to the public.

    It's true that in theory third parties might be able to create more public-friendly player software or codec implementations within the WMV framework, but ultimately they will be at the mercy of Microsoft. It can change the specs arbitrarily, and effectively dictate how this format gets used. Again, I'm not necessarily assuming malice here, but Microsoft and other vendors have consistently demonstrated their willingness to force customers to upgrade for commercial reasons. Again, this gives them unnecessary leverage over the BBC's viewers, who have already paid for this service.

    DRM is a worry, because this is one way that Microsoft could make the business case for continued support of a file format. If they knew that they would be paid every time someone watched a show, they might be convinced to support WMV for much longer than they might otherwise do.

    But that's just one example. The bottom line is that cultural and business interests should never be closely tied, as they often work at cross-purposes to one another. The BBC's mandate is to ensure that its vast library of material remains accessible to the British public in perpetuity. MS' mandate is simply to profit this quarter, the next and the one after that, ad infinitum.

    Open, vendor-neutral standards are more immune to the vagaries of business and the passage of time. This is something that's evident to the majority of people posting on this site, and there is some surprise that the BBC could have overlooked something so fundamental as this. Either that, or they've done a very poor job explaining what reasons compelled them to choose something other than the obvious course.

    There are over 800 million Windows machines out there, that sounds like a pretty good target to shoot for.

    It's a fine target to shoot for, if you're a business. But the BBC has another target, mandated by Act of Parliament: Their target is the people of the UK and, to a lesser extent, the Commonwealth and English-speaking peoples around the world. Whether or how this coincide with the number of WMV users is coincidental and not fundamentally relevant.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  57. Re:What BS by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
    How many of those windows machines (800 million seems a lot for the UK) have better screens than their owners' TV for watching TV, or some other advantage to recommend them? I suspect a lot more people would want to download shows to watch while mobile (on the bus/train for example) and play them back on their phone or iPod. In this area, Microsoft have a tiny percentage of the market, but that would change rapidly if the BBC made content that would only play on a Windows Smartphone or Zune.

    They're bad enough with the monopolies they have. I don't want my taxes spent giving them any more.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  58. Re:What BS by janrinok · · Score: 1

    Exactly. But, because people in the UK feel as though they have already paid for the BBC through the license fee (the 'BBC tax'), they believe that they have a right to all of its products. I'm afraid that they are, quite simply, wrong. The license pays for the right to receive television broadcasts from any provider. The BBC provides what is required of it under its charter. Anything over and above that provision must be paid for from other funds. To the BBC, eventually providing streams via the internet for a price seems like a good money spinner. The need for DRM means that WMV is the obvious format but that is locking out those who do not own a Windows machine which is why the OSC is up in arms. However, there is nothing in the license or the Charter that prohibits this and the BBC can argue that they are trying to reach the greatest number of people. I dislike it because I am a linux user, but I can understand what is happening, and why.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  59. Re:What BS by ChameleonDave · · Score: 1

    You missed the bit where he mentioned resisting the law with a weapon. The police will indeed follow any escalation. If you defend your TV with a knife, five of them will come at you with truncheons. If you defend it with a gun, they'll call in the gun squad. The state will win, and they will use any means necessary. It's just up to you how far you take it.

  60. Why the hate, FOSSies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't understand the logic here. A company has the right to use any service or media codec they want. So why do FOSSies whine so much when a company chooses Windows Media Player or WMV?

    The company weighed their choices, and chose MS's solution. So what I don't understand is why companies are allowed to choose Real, they are allowed to choose Quicktime, they are allowed to choose anything else... but why aren't they allowed to choose a Microsoft format or player?

    1. Re:Why the hate, FOSSies? by Divebus · · Score: 1

      It has less to do with technology and more to do with the behavior of the owner. The history if Microsoft is to encourage the adoption and spread of technologies they control. Once they achieve ubiquity, they pull out a gun, aim it at your head and demand more money if you intend to continue using their products. They've done it time and time again so don't even start with them. The other players in the industry have a history of ensuring interoperability and fairness. Apple has several times stood in the way of the greedy record industry who wants to cut open the golden goose... YOU. They've also applied reasonable DRM methods which essentially protect the content owners and allow the consumer to opt out at the same time. It was quite a balancing act which eventually led to the decline of DRM. That's why anything Microsoft is a bad choice.

      --

      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
    2. Re:Why the hate, FOSSies? by julesh · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the logic here. A company has the right to use any service or media codec they want. So why do FOSSies whine so much when a company chooses Windows Media Player or WMV?

      The BBC isn't simply "a company": it's a nationalised organisation that exists by governmental charter. Part of its charter is that it should be free from commercial influence. We're worried that the decision to use MS formats (and hence excluding a not insignificant proportion of the potential users of the service) has been based less on technical suitability for the purpose than it has on Microsoft's commercial influence.

  61. Where's Dirac? by trawg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does anyone know why the BBC didn't end up using Dirac for this project? It's the first I've heard of the iPlayer, but I would have thought their Dirac work would have been perfect for this.

    1. Re:Where's Dirac? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because the BBC iPlayer was one of the most lazy pieces of software ever written. I'm not kidding.

      Imagine getting a BitTorrent Library as an ActiveX control, and hooking it up to one of Microsoft's mediaplayer controls with a bit of visual basic etc. That's iPlayer... lazy, shitty coding... and that's why they are committed to using WMV and its DRM.

  62. Silverlight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BBC 1 showed an impressive media player demonstration at MIX 07. This is obviously the direction that BBC is taking. By using Silverlight they get the advantage of DRM protected content on all platforms with impressive performance and capabilities. Using Windows Media Player now ensures that content won't need to be transcoded when a Silverlight solution is available.

  63. PC video is for amateurs by gig · · Score: 1

    Windows Media is fine for fucking around in the den on the weekend, if you like that kind of thing. It is not suitable for professional video applications. Whoever suggested BBC use this should be fired and encouraged to switch careers entirely, go run Excel somewhere.

    The language of TV's -- TV's not PC's -- is H.264/AAC, if you are making video and you don't speak it, you're not saying anything. You are showing snow on your TV station. This is the replacement for both DVD and VHF.

    Blu-Ray, HD DVD, iPod+iTunes, iPhone, PSP, AppleTV, and many other devices can only play H.264, it is in their hardware, they don't have a big general purpose CPU upon which you can run multiple software codecs. Google is transcoding YouTube from H.263 to H.264 for this reason and because that is the standard in professional video.

    There are more TV's and phones than PC's and that will always be the case. AppleTV is a next-generation DVD player same as Blu-Ray or HD DVD except the optical drive has been replaced by a Wi-Fi "n" connection and iPhone is the same thing in your pocket, there is no going back now.

    By the way, the server software for MPEG-4 streaming is free, open source, very mature, and runs on any Unix or Windows server. MPEG-4 is the standardization of QuickTime so the tools are mature. There is no content tax, there is no streaming tax, the only thing anybody pays for is the encoder and it is dirt cheap. If you're paying Microsoft so that you can not use H.264 then it boggles the mind. Especially when you consider there are more iTunes users than Windows Media Player.

    This stuff was standardized in like 2002, BBC should have heard about it by now, there is this thing called the Internet. It's grim to see organizations embarrassing themselves like this, BBC should know what's going on in TV.

    1. Re:PC video is for amateurs by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      There's an argument that they should be using a patent free codec, but you're right - if they're going to be using a patented codec anyway, there is no argument for using anything other than some flavor of MPEG-4 - and H.264 is the preferred flavor due to hardware support.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
  64. Re:What BS by jimicus · · Score: 1

    But they don't try and take your TV away.

    They (sometimes) send an inspector - who has no legal right of entry and no powers of arrest - they can only come in if you let them in - around, if s/he spots a TV but your property isn't licensed they report you and you get taken to court. At no point do you get arrested. It's treated as a civil case.

    As often as not though, they assume every household in the country has a TV and try and prosecute anyone without a license without checking to see if you need one first.

    If you were let the TV license inspector in and then start threatening them with violence - that's rather different. But even then, you'd be done for assault rather than not having a TV licence.

  65. MPEG-1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MPEG-1 remains the ONLY video standard natively compatible with all of the media players.

    Which tells you a lot about how much big software companies care about supporting MPEG standards, while in broadcast they are the only standards that matter.

  66. Protect its assets? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Those that are broadcast and that you can record with a VCR or PVR?

    Those that we, the UK taxpayers, paid to produce?

    I do not want the BBC to "protect their assets", as far as I am concerned any company producing work for the BBC should be told in no uncertain terms that programmes will be distributed widely and freely. I am sure many production companies would jump to the opportunity.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.