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China Says Tibetans Need Permission To Reincarnate
michaelcole writes "China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. This article is both hilarious and sad, looking at the lengths to which a government will go to regulate thought through censorship. It also goes into some of the more subtle politics of the current 72-year-old Dalai Lama as he thinks about his political and spiritual successor. The Dalai Lama 'refuses to be reborn in Tibet so long as it's under Chinese control.'"
...if we figure out you're defying this order, we'll slaughter you in your crib.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
...I create a new law in my glorious purple sky kingdom that every Chinese government official must get special written permission from King Me prior to squatting down and excreting the same kind of fecal matter that they are spewing from their mouths.
The Dalai Lama has already announced - long before this weeks-ago Chinese ruling - he's not only going to reincarnate outside Tibet, but as a girl, just to bugger the monks.
But the law is only partly directed at the Dalai Lama. A whole score of other "Living Buddhas" are believed by Tibetans to be reincarnating, which has important consequences for claims to social influence in that rocky corner of the world. China has long sought to control this, for example with the high-profile abduction of the then 6 years old Panchen Lama whose whereabouts remain unknown.
The News may seem offbeat, but it is actually rather serious for Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) believers. Lamas are regarded to simply live many centuries, with death/reincarnation just a particular step in the way. The Chinese announcement will seem to the believers like the deliberate attempt to end the lives of all remaining leaders of the religion.
blow your mind already
Ths isn't the Chinese equivalent of "The Onion" is it?
Huh, I guess they'll have spiritual guards then, to keep people as haunts then?
Man, the Matrix is creeping upon us!
In Chinese, reincarnation is an euphemism for death. So in China, people not only need permission to be born but also to die! If weren't so sad, this is funny!
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity....Calvin
Unless they want to accidentally CAUSE some reincarnations.
The USA and the EU Union announced that all terrorists are no longer permitted to reincarnate unless a court ruling otherwise is issued. Bush was heard saying that they should have done it sooner and now because of the delay we are in danger of 9/11 terrorist that could now be playing in our parks. It was also heard that this is also for the sake of the good children that also had reincarnated. An extremists who do not wish to be made known commented that no terrorist on his right mind would want to be reincarnated now considering that the world is experiencing a shortage of virgins...
My god, you're right. And not only do we not have a headscarf law, but our allies mostly don't either! Maybe the UN should enact some sort of global mandate requiring headscarf sensitivity laws and other good ideas.
is complaining about Food and Drug Agency regulations governing the transubstantiation of communion wafers.
....if the church want to miraculously convert bread and wine to human remains, we will need to ensure that it is suitable for human consumption. There is well-documented evidence of disease transmission through these vectors.......Of course, human remains are also prima facie evidence of a crime being committed, so we have asked the FBI if they want to retain all communion utensils for evidence....
Said the Agency:
C'mon that's just hilarious (at least if it wouldn't be that sad). It's a wonderful example how totalitarian states need to control every corner of life even the dark corner of superstition.
But please don't forget that Tibet was a theocracy (actually a bodhisattva-cracy) before the Chinese Army invaded and the Dalai Lamas only became meek as a lamb after they/he lost power.
That China is evil doesn't mean Tibet was good.
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
Actually they didn't. They banned people who are wearing clear religious signs, including (BUT NOT LIMITED TO) a headscarf. The law permits wide interpretations which in effect also prohibits funny little Jewish hats, big necklaces, big crucifixes, etc. The prohibition is for ANY religion.
It is therefore fair to consider the laws you refer to as being "neutral", because they simply prohibit strong religious signals IN GENERAL and not in opposition of a single religion.
They also don't tell you what you can or can't do in the privacy of your own home.
Your comparison to this new and very sad Chinese law is flawed.
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
Assume for a moment that people want to play along. I'm curious what the application process would be like. Do you have some forms to fill out? Do you need to go to a special office? Who will be overseeing this particular application? Who approves it? And probably the most obvious question is: how are they going to enforce it? Is this a case of them summarily making a sweeping statement without thinking about the ramifications of putting together a system to handle the throughput?
As absurd as this issue seems, constructing a legal and bureaucratic process around it sounds even more bizarre.
Just like Falun Gong people are all given medical checkups and then entered into a database, the same will happen to anyone guilty of unlawful reincarnation. Infanticide would be a terrible waste. Waste Not, Want Not.
Our laughter means Chinese government's definition of reincarnation is different from ours. We think reincarnation is a "mystical belief that some essential part of a living being survives death to be reborn in a new body". Chinese government perhaps thinks that reincarnation is an act of stating such a belief about a certain individual. How does the Chinese government define reincarnation anyway?
http://id3as.livejournal.com/
oh well the add was still disabled however their CSS trick leaves a blanc white frame over the page.
So i only noticed it was google to blame and slashdot themselves for allowing google to show it.
I use AVANT brouwser so i normaly dont see any adds, only some left overs of poor CSS design.
CSS is probaply allready a bit of a miracle overhere (hahahaha).
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
It's not just an euphemism, it's what happens after you die, according to that religion. Just like christians prefer to believe in heaven and hell than that it ends for ever.
The prospect that it's the end of the line at some point, is freakin' scary for a lot of people. It's not just religion that gets built on that, but also stuff like trying to be remembered somehow afterwards, or trying to make enough kids that the line will go on that way. (It's why countries where survival is a crapshot people make 10 kids or more, while after they get sanitation, medicine, etc, it eventually dawns upon them that if 1-2 kids are just short of guaranteed to survive, you don't really need more.) Anything to maintain a belief that somehow it's not really game over.
So the government saying they can stop you from reincarnating? Oooer. That's a claim that they can really end that game. It's exactly like, if you're a christian, the government saying that you need their stamp of approval to go anywhere after death. Otherwise you're going nowhere. Not to heaven, not to hell, not to purgatory (if your flavour of Christianity has a purgatory), just nowhere. To a lot of people that'll be a scarier thought than even going to hell.
Anyway, they're not saying you need permission to die. You can still jolly well die whenever you wish. Just go demonstrate for democracy in front of some tanks, if you ran out of other suicide ideas, and they'll oblige. They're saying that they can make your death a lot more permanent and scarier.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
"According to a 2005 Gallup poll, 20 percent of all U.S. adults believe in reincarnation."
What the hell is that ? Although the first part of the article feels true (and if it is, it is really sad, no doubt), the article ending part doesn't seem to be really relevant.
I'm not american so I don't know if this site is reliable, but I better see some more newspaper relaying this information before thinking it true.
Of course, the Turkish government is not an occupying power hell-bent on destroying the language and culture of the Turkish people. The Chinese government, on the other hand, is only interested in Tibetan culture to the extent that it can be used to encourage the tourist trade. This is just the latest in a long series of moves by the PRC to attempt to squash Tibetan religion and culture; previous steps have included destroying monasteries and religious schools, forcing monks to renounce their vows, forbidding pictures of the Dalai Lama, language restrictions, etc.
This is also essentially the next round in the ongoing battle of what will happen to the institutions of Tibetan Buddhism once the current Dalai Lama dies. China wants the next DL to be a hand-picked puppet of the state who will lend legitimacy to Chinese rule in Tibet. At the very least, they would like to create a long-standing controversy over who the 'real' Dalai Lama is, as they've done with the Panchen Lama, in order to cast a shadow on a very visible and popular rallying point for the Tibetan preservation and independence movement.
Wow, the chinese scientific community will be amazed to learn that their government officially acknowledges the existence of reincarnation. Great news for buddhists: Unique Reincarnation manual, now approved by TEH CHINESE GOVERNMENT! Buy one, get one free. Jeez. Can we get rid of all this religious madness please?
As long as I can practice any zainy superstition I choose here in America, I'll be a happy man.
Name...That...Autocomplete!
yeah, it's SO fashionable to bash China nowdays, isn't it? Everything in United Stupids of Amerikkka is so perfect and open and democratic, isn't it? Fix your own problems USA, BEFORE you try to fix other's countries!
fuck karma, I like saying the truth better
Let's take this to its logical conclusion.
Therefore, it is forbidden to be naked, and it is forbidden to be clothed. So nakedness is both forbidden and mandatory.
Clever, that.
--
I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
I've started a Pligg Site for Chinese Tech/Internet News. If you're interested in this subject, come and have a look.
Regards,
John
http://www.chinamemes.com/
IIRC in Italy you couldn't circulate with any kind of mask lest being stopped by the police because it makes it damn hard to identify robbers. And this well before Islamic immigrants came.
So it's true such laws shouldn't exist. It's also true that when a policeman wants to see behind the headscarf people should just do it without irrational whining (because seeing a woman face is irrelevant for "unbelievers"). It's a clash between lack-of-civilizations and completely different from the chinese gov stunts. Next time they'll outlaw armageddon.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Every time I hear "Dali Lama", I think of melting llamas draped over tables and held up by poles and crutches!
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
If it's true that the French resistence were never as free as they were under the occupation then there is a real case for claiming that Tibet just got a whole lot more free than before. Now even dying is a political statement - an active act of rebellion. It is laws like this which are fundamentally bound to fail because they get people used to the idea of rebellion against China, and then they have a fair chance of creating a conciousness which can see beyond the short-term monetary gifts from China and new railways which carry the caveat of the destruction of their culture
If you knew the history of Tibet, this news is neither hilarious nor sad. In fact, this rule was not "invented" by today's Chinese government. Back to the end of 18th century, after a rebellion in Tibet was ended by central government of Qing dynasty, a Manchurian dynasty, the emperor set up rules for reincarnation, and the reincarnations of Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama and others were under the control government. After this, Dalai Lama was awarded political power by central government and noble families of Tibet had less influence on the reincarnations. Before that rebellion, Tibet was ruled by Mongolians.
Chinese govt. did this to prevent a successor to Dalai Lama. Which was to be chosen by monks who would find a boy who is a reincarnation of Dalai Lama. Basically this is reincarnation at its finest, and chinese govt. officially acknowledged reincarnation.
Read radical news here
until now, i didn't even know that slashdot has ads. *pats die little ABP-sign in the topright corner*
These wall hacking aim bots shall be banned for life. Thank you China. 1UP!
Headscarves in those countries are being used as an extreme right wing political icon by their holders. Its a stance, a rallying point like nazi flag was for nazi. It also encourages discrimination - islamists can recognize each other easily and socialize. they do not tend to socialize with people not using headscarves and even shun them.
Read radical news here
No Avant brouwser is just fine as it's verry productive to me.
It has a need search option which automaticly can highlight my searched words in any internet text.
As i read a lot of internet text for my work this realy shortens my read and search work.
I've seen others but it's simply fast and easy and at the end of the day i do realy have some time left over.
That's why i stick to Avant as it speeds up my work.
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
- quite beside the point, I think.
Here's some background: Whether you like the Chinese government or not, and whether you feel that they are wrongfully occupying Tibet or not, the fact is that they feel that this is their territory, and nobody in the world offers any serious challenge; ergo, Tibet is de facto a part of China. Nobody in their right mind would expect a country to allow an external, hostile, political power to influence the internal affairs of the country - the US have historically been very heavyhanded in similar situations (eg. the communist scare after WWII); many would still today argue that it was right of them.
The Dalai Lama is undeniably a political influence in Tibet, and he is undeniably hostile to the Chinese government; it is pure common sense that they want to minimize his influence on any part of the Chinese population (and as I pointed out, the Tibetans are de facto part of the Chinese population). It is not only common sense, it is the duty of any government to oppose any influence that would destabilise the society they are governing; and it is only fair to say that the Dalai Lama wants to destabilize the situation - after all, he wants the Chinese to leave and Tibet to be an independent nation. How could that be achieved without a war of independence? And even more - if the Chinese government were to say 'OK, we agree; we simply leave Tibet', that in itself would destabilize the country. Suddenly most Chinese investments would be withdrawn, most Han Chinese would probably leave etc; the result would be BIG PROBLEMS.
And while we are talking about the 'horrible repression of the Buddhists' - do you actually know what it was like in Tibet before? It was a feudal society (like Europe in the middle ages). If you were born into a rich family, you could get away with anything; if you were poor, you could get cruel and absurd punishments for small 'crimes' - like having a foot chopped off or your eyes gouged out. There is no doubt that it is better now. There is also no doubt that it could be better than what it is now, but it isn't too bad for most. The ones that howl and complain now are the ones who were members of the aristocracy or the corrupt monastries.
i havent looked it that way. with this, chinese government has had officially accepted reincarnation.
Read radical news here
FireFox does that, too. Control-F puts a search box on the bottom toolbar and any word you type it will find the next one of, or check "highlight all" box and it will do what you describe. I also really like that feature, it makes searching for a specific thing on a big page much easier.
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
Whether you like the Chinese government or not, and whether you feel that they are wrongfully occupying Tibet or not, the fact is that they feel that this is their territory, and nobody in the world offers any serious challenge; ergo, Tibet is de facto a part of China. Nobody in their right mind would expect a country to allow an external, hostile, political power to influence the internal affairs of the country - the US have historically been very heavyhanded in similar situations (eg. the communist scare after WWII); many would still today argue that it was right of them.
Read radical news here
And this is the difference between largely germanic and British commonwealth legal systems.
Germanic tradition is open to interpretation and the intent of the law weighs, if possible, even more heavily than the actual lettering.
In the British system, you can game the system like you suggest, leading to hugely litigous societies compared to ones following the germanic tradition.
Traditional culture is evil anyways. It's a prime mover for feelings of superiority, which are the #1 impetus for wars. Until it's all gone we're gonna be stuck here for a while.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
... Except this is in the department of the nearly impossible, because *both* ReIncarnation or Being Judged is a function of the highest spiritual levels of all reality. God would consider it blasphemy, and the Wheel turning ReIncarnation doesn't check for local permissions either. Put simply to modern minds, it's like banning gravity. Isaac Newton didn't "give" us gravity, and the other forces that did provide it don't react to Government pronouncements.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Shame on Newsweek for presenting this issue as "one of history's more absurd acts of totalitarianism" rather than the Chinese government wanting to choose the next Dali Lama. They do come out and say that later in the article but presenting this as just some kind of wacky law is misleading. I guess the real shame is that most people don't get past the first few sentences of the article to understand what's really being discussed.
All your souls are belong to China
People, when I learned about these restrictions on reincarnation, I nearly lost control of my incredible mystical might! However, after careful consideration, I have decided not to use my awesome supernatural powers against the Chinese state. I could unleash a magical fury and I could re-materialize as a thousand dragons that would crush this oppressive regime, but only if I wanted to. Luckily for them, I have decided to—ahem—exercise restraint and let the process work itself out through normal means.
Why bother.
.. simply not be called either nationalism or racism in other parts of the world?
The question of who has power in the country aside, it seems many Tibetans simply want Chinese people not to live close to them.
But China seems to be trying to help Tibetans to reincarnate ASAP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzCl95A90P0
Just ask their border police.
"They banned people who are wearing clear religious signs, including (BUT NOT LIMITED TO) a headscarf. "
1. I did not say exclusively.
2. Mentioning THAT would put you on par with Soviet Russia and Maoist China (sorry, I forgot, THAT is what the topic about) - equal persecution of all religions (except Buddhism)
3. You are spectacularly mute on the subject of Tunisia and Turkey - "progressive" Muslim countries.
German laws circa 1937 were quite neutral to all Jews. Do you listen to yourself, atheists?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
What are you talking about? Headscarf is a head cover, not a face cover...
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
You are certainly aware that "modern" culture is just a recent successor of certain traditional culture and is sure as hell a prime mover for feeling of superiority (evident in your post, BTW) itself. I think evilness lies somewhere else, perhaps in wrong answers to "What do we do now that we *know* we are superior to others?" What we need to have globally accepted is not a single (whichever) culture, but the spirit of tolerance. Whoever wishes to change own culture for another (or completely new) one should be permitted to do so, but none should be forced to.
I wish if someone (brave) would write a fictional diary of Prophet Mohamed written using today Western euphemisms used when speaking about "inferior" and "backward" cultures, perhaps with some paraphrasing from colonial, (American native) Indian and later, i.e. against Japan wars' times propaganda and reports. It is always good to change a perspective.
The Tibetan Dali Lama, while he presents himself as a force for enlightenment, is really the head figure for what you might term the upper class of Tibet. Their record for treatment of their own population isn't that great, butit gets glossed over by a west desperate to find a better path to their own enlightenment, whilst handily ignoring the impovorished state in which the peasants live, and have lived for a log time, long before the Chinese turned up. I note that the religous class seemed to do well for themselves before China turned up.
The thing is, they couched their control over Tibet in religious terms, to to properly destabalise that, China must work against their control on those same terms.
Not that I condone China, but they're not the only people with a bad record in this dispute.
The Dali Lama position has frequently been held by people whose selection was extremely useful politically (influential families and such). I find it all highly suspect. Probably because, since I have a reasonable self image, I don't need to delude myself that a country with a population mostly consisting of poor people prone to starvation at the slightest turn of fortune is somehow also the keeper of a path to some higher state of being.
I'm having trouble understanding your posts. Perhaps you could take your meds. and then try again?
Yes indeed,
Avant also use it's same search box to forward those words to any search engine you prefer.
it's a bit all in one, but not a widely known brouwser.
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
Want to talk about China? So much written about Tibet, and almost nothing about Eastern Turkestan (which mainlanders call Xinjiang)
TOTAL population ot Tibet: 2.62 million
Uyghur people: 8.83 million.
Do you think they are LESS persecuted?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
In other news, Slashdot changes its slogan to "News for nerds, stuff that matters and anything that happens in China".
It's certainly a censorship issue but hardly related to the techie world, unless I missed the RFC on Buddhist reincarnation.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
..by Scott Adams (yes, the creator of Dilbert) Slap the Monk, eh?
"Never try to tell everything you know. It may take too short a time."
"He's not the Messiah - he's a very naughty boy!"
Allowing or accepting the uncontrolled exercise of all religious aspects is unacceptable in any modern society.
Society as a whole is (and should be) dominated by non-religious values. In fact, that is the only way to ensure equal space for all religions. If the moral/ethical ways of the society I live in has decided that "murder is illegal", but my religion dictates that I must make a human sacrifice every month, which should win? If the moral/ethical ways of the society I live in has decided that stealing is wrong, but my religion dictates that I must covertly acquire other peoples values on a daily basis, which should win?
If the society I live in dictates that we must all be able to see the face of every public worker we encounter, but some religion dictates that all women should wear a Burka (Muslim full-body ghost-like clothing, typically all black or brown), which point of view should have precedence? Should women wearing a Burka be allowed to become public workers? Like police officers? Or politicians? Or bureaucrats? Would you call it "religious persecution" if I opposed a law which accepted police officers to wear a Burka (I am sure some of them would just love that)?
Religion is often in conflict with the ethics and moral values of society in general (and with other religions). The only way to ensure maximum space for everyone is by letting the general moral and ethical values take precedence. In a democratic society, these values are enforced by the government (who passes laws which reflect values in society). And while we all may disagree with the governments decisions sometimes, it is still the best way to ensure maximum space for everyone.
Personally I think that making laws about headscarfs is pretty silly. But i certainly understand the underlying arguments for doing so. Perhaps it seems stupid looking at the headscarfs, but on the other hand, the Burka is a pretty good example of the reason we have to draw a line SOMEWHERE. The result is simple: we must allow people to exercise whatever religion they want, as long as this exercise conforms to the moral and ethical values of society. For example: We must allow women to wear a Burka as long as they accept that they cannot become police officers at the same time.
Making laws that prohibit police officers from being fully masked is not an oppression or persecution of religion. It is a fair and necessary step which ensures that society works as a whole.
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
Obligatory Diesel Sweeties comic:
http://dieselsweeties.com/archive.php?s=1731
Sig erased via substitution of an identical one.
*hands you a soapbox*
Here, this might help your rant.
696e6b6564
Of course, the Turkish government is not an occupying power hell-bent on destroying the language and culture of the Turkish people.
No need, they already did that hundreds of years ago...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
chmod +x /usr/sbin/reincarnate /usr/sbin/reincarnate -tibet
Ironic, considering that attacking the unstated assumptions underlying your arguments is a technique Jesuits tend to love...
In Soviet Russia, government reincarnates you!
Failure to follow this advice may result in non-deterministic behavior.
You're not allowed to regenerate unless given a license by the government, which they never do. An exception for a Timelord was grandfathered in though since he was the last one of his race.
"Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace." V.Stone, Microsoft Corporation
This is very simpel. If no-one has obtained a license to reincarnate, whichever kid is pronounced the new incarnation of the Dalai Lama automatically violates Chinese law and will be locked up. Case closed.
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
An old friend of mine used to quote his grandmother (immigrant from Russia) who used to say,
"The best government in the world is a good Tsar,
The worst government in the world is a bad Tsar."
I think that the other relevant quote was something about Democracy being the worst form of government except for everything else that we tried.
Democracy keeps the best leaders out for trivial reasons, but generally keeps really bad people out.
For all people are howling about Bush (and Putin for that matter), if you compare them to truly awful despots, they look good.
Democracy consistently gets us leaders in the 60%-90% range... Monarchies and dictatorships often get you a random distributions.
Considering Turkey didn't exist until after it's secular foundation, this is nonsense. Perhaps you mean that secular Turkey has destroyed the culture of the Ottoman empire.
You mean like a 'black hat' communist or a 'white hat' communist country?
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
Any man made institution, be it governmental or religious attempts to be an authority, and is a consolidation of power. These institutions may not seek power themselves at first, but will eventually attract those seeing power. Then these institutions are infiltrated by these individuals and the corruption begins...
;-) ) choose which gospels it would have in its bible because you had to pay people to copy these texts by hand. Eventually, a common set emerged and they not make up the Bible. Was it wight for the many churches to exclude any gospel? These are supposed to be holier books.. I guess some are holier than others...
It is important to always question authority and anything else that is presented as authority. It doesn't matter if it is the Constitution of the US, or a Bible. Find out what authority is really possessed and how relevant the words are. For those who think the Bible is the original word of God, you have to look at how the words got to your brain. They were laid on the page by the publisher, who probably took some liberty when they copied from another text, and that text took some liberties from the scroll it came from... It all goes back to these gospels that were written 40-400 years after Jesus. If they were really eye witness accounts, then they would agree, but the Gospels of Mark and Matthew don't agree, even though they tell the same story. On top of that, there were many other gospels that never got included in the Bible. The reason is the church (an authority
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Even though many people don't know much about Buddhism, the image they have of the Buddha is not too far off base.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Hey, business is business.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I seem to remember a few years ago seeing a news story about a boy named Sonam from Seattle, WA who was supposedly the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama. If it's a sign of things to come, the next Dali Lama might be a North American.
The game.
The parent post illustrates exactly what is wrong with most peoples' understanding of logic.
Under the assumption that people can wear whatever they want (and only under that assumption) we can argue that:
not clothed => Jain (point 1 in the Parent post)
clothed => not Jain (point 2 in the Parent post)
But, if the initial assumption does not hold then we cannot make these arguments. Let's say that a group of people lost all of their clothes (they were stolen while they slept, maybe). It is clear to everyone that if none of a group of people had any clothes, then we could not conclude anything about their being Jain or not based on their state of dress?
A law which requires everyone to wear clothes is also a case where the initial assumption does not hold. Everyone must wear clothes, so wearing clothes no longer implies anything about ones' religious status. _The initial assumption no longer holds_. Yet the parent post came to a conclusion which used points 1 and 2 even though the assumption which made those points valid had been undermined.
The result is a contradiction (gee, really?) When people go around undermining their own assumptions and ignoring the fact that they did so, these things happen. This is just a flaw in their logic, not some brilliant realization.
My favorite part of this article is at the end [emphasis mine]: "According to a 2005 Gallup poll, 20 percent of all U.S. adults believe in reincarnation. Recent surveys by the Barna Group, a Christian research nonprofit, have found that a quarter of U.S. Christians, including 10 percent of all born-again Christians, embrace it as their favored end-of-life view." This just goes to reinforce my view that religion in America no longer has anything to do with what you actually believe, just who you choose to hang out with.
Heard this on NPR's Wait Wait Don't Tell Me quiz show a couple weeks ago...
The atheism is a basical tenet of Dialectical Materialism (Marxist philosophy). If the Chinese Government accepts the existence of the absurd notion of an immaterial soull which can reincarnate (????) they implicitly say that Dialectical Materialism is wrong.
Chinese Communism is becoming stranger and stranger. Communist ideology mixed with capitalist economy and now with religion(????). What would Marx think if he were alive?
huh?
Anybody want my mod points?
...but it doesn't make sense to compare the evil Catholic Church with Dalai Lama's teachings and the accompanying organizational structures.
Of course, maybe I just know more about the Catholic church so I know more evil things that they do.
Blar.
It still makes me wonder...
It seems to me that a religious figure or authority is based on little more than people actually believing it. E.g., if I were to proclaim that my brother is the new Pope, would anyone take that seriously? Just having someone give you a religious title (or conversely revoke it) doesn't mean anything unless a large enough percentage of the population actually believes that you're what that title says.
Ok, so China now fabricated a claim of authority over that process. Is it one anyone sane would want to believe?
If you believe that claim, then the implications are those I've written. If they can control the Dalai Lama's reincarnation, what's to stop them from controlling yours? Sure, they might not bother doing it to everyone, but do you want to be the first one who gets the shit end of that stick?
Yes, I know it sounds surrealistic to worry about that, but remember that they're essentially trying to mod religion there. So try to think like someone who takes buddhism and reincarnation very very seriously, because that's the people China tries hard to control with this coup.
Even skipping past the fact that China didn't have the religious authority to do such a change to buddhism, why would you want to start believing in their new government-sponsored heresy? Essentially there's no carrot there, but just some extra stick. The whole change is that you're supposed to believe that now the already unpopular and oppressive party and government can have a say in your reincarnation. And that they can do one of the scariest things imaginable by most people to you even post-mortem. Why would you want to join such a sect?
Regardless of whether you think they'll bother doing it to random buddhists on the street or not, the fact is, they're asking you to believe that they _can_ if they wanted to.
So basically it seems to me like a pretty stupid and heavy-handed thing to do. Appointing a new Dalai Lama is only worth anything if people actually believe him to be the Dalai Lama and you to have enough authority to select one. Otherwise they'll just ignore yours and follow theirs. And the "we can now control reincarnation" excuse isn't helping there IMHO. They didn't have the religious authority to decree such a change in the first place, _and_ it's a freakin' scary change to believe in. The incentive for people to start believing that new doctrine, and thus actually follow a Dalai Lama appointed based on it, just isn't there IMHO.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
unauthorised reincarnations? sounds like pirated copies of monks. :-)
deal with it!
niyam
Why does the reincarnation have to be Chinese?
Kurds and Western Armenians might be able to draw some parallels from China's treatment of Tibetans to Turkey's treatment of them.
Turkey objects to the creation of any Kurdistan in Iraq or Iran because their Kurds might agitate to join, loosing a substantial chunk of their geography to them.
Turkey is a lot better about many things than China, including relations with minorities, but they aren't exactly a shining beacon either. In fact they still deny atrocities that happened about 90 years ago under an oppressive regime that few liked and that they rose up against and overthrew just because it "insults" their national character.
In the US we put some of the groups we robbed and exploited a 100 years ago on the dole. It doesn't actually help them move forward in the world as groups or individuals, but hey at least we said "our bad."
The Dalai Lama has already announced - long before this weeks-ago Chinese ruling - he's not only going to reincarnate outside Tibet, but as a girl, just to bugger the monks.
He closed the watch again and looked around desperately. No-one else seemed anxious to come too near Windle Poons. The Bursar felt it was up to him to make polite conversation. He surveyed possible topics. They all presented problems.
Windle Poons helped him out.
"I'm thinking of coming back as a woman," he said conversationally.
The Bursar opened and shut his mouth a few times.
"I'm looking forward to it," Poons went on. "I think it might, mm, be jolly good fun."
The Bursar riffled desperately through his limited repertoire of small talk relating to women. He leaned down to Windle's gnarled ear.
"Isn't there rather a lot of," he struck out aimlessly, "washing things? And making beds and cookery and all that sort of thing?"
"Not in the kind of, mm, life I have in mind," said Windle firmly.
Chinese proganda accused Tibetan monks of every kind of vice - sex, hoarding wealth, oppressing farmers. In pre-Chinese days the monastaries were the top of the social-economic system and may have had abuses. But I think the Chinese propaganda overstates the situation alot.
Oposite logical thinking, proves that china goverment now believes in re-incarnation.
:)
They-re only a small step away of budhism.
I hope with the olympic games china will go out of Tibet, everyone know the land of tibet so china should get out of that country it not theirs.
Oh and he's welcome te be reborn in the Netherlands too.
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
One of my favorites, and coincidentally on tonight in syndication: "Won't You Pimai Neighbor" Buddhist monks think Bobby is a reincarnated Lama. Best line is when Hank barges in to see Bobby meditating (after reading Buddhism for Dummies) Hank:"NO! NO! DANG NO! Bobby: "Aww, Dad...I was THIS close to achieving enlightenment!!!"
They're already regulating births in China, this is just a little more preemptive. Regulating belief is nothing new for them, either.
Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
No religion other that that of the government.
Thus, by allowing a few thousand year old religion to proceed
they are admitting that the government is wrong.
We all no that the government is never wrong.
I say allow him to reincarnate.
I just hope he comes back as the bear that bites the Chines leader's head off
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
Winding up in the USA would be bad. Just think if his Mom was Brittany Spears or Paris Hilton? Or worst still some wacked out Texas Christers or some spawn of Fred Phelps. Hate to see his family life, He'd be all serene and enlightened and they would be waving signs about God hates >>>>>
Or Europe where he would be too busy talking about Art in the Cafe to change the world.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
Yeah well I think the reason for that is ... security. Westerners just cant trust you Muslim bastard extremists not to send a kid to school strapped with C4 to blow up his classmates. Get over it or tell your Jihadist brothers to stop blowing people up. Oh and just so you dont get all uppity...God commanded: Thou shalt not kill!! So any Muslim that justifies killin other people in the name of God has a little bit of a dilemma now dont they. Dont get me wrong most of you should wear scarves(inbreeding) for the sake of the viewing public its just that we all have to make sacrifices to make sure you bastards are on the up and up.
Let's take this to its logical conclusion.
1. Wearing nothing at all sends a religious message, namely, I am a Jain.
2. Wearing anything at all sends a religious message, namely, I am not a Jain.
There is a flaw in your logic. Expressions (religious symbols, in this case) affirm. The lack of expression neither affirms nor denies. The best you can conclude is that someone may possibly be acting against the codes of their religion (for legal purposes). But that's not logic anymore.
Furthermore, the law in question targets overt affirmation. Denial isn't covered by this particular law, unless denial involves the negation of an overt affirmation. Your particular case is the perfect example of denial without said negation.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Or a simple case of the fallacy of denying the antecedent. The argument is "If you are naked then you are a Jain". Whether or not this is true, denying the antecedent ("You are not naked") doesn't entail the denial of the consequent ("you are not a Jain"). Just as (1) "If you are French then you are European" and (2) "you are not French" does not entail (3) "you are not European".
Somewhere, Special Agent Dale Cooper of the FBI is crying over the continuing plight of the Tibetan people...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vrb51EGXGqs
This sig is false.
AC pokes at my assumptions but fails to undermine the inherent absurdity. In the first case, the original conflict holds, and in the second, it just moves the contradiction to a different point.
The point here is not that clothed means "not Jain", but that it implies (rightly or wrongly) "not Jain." It's still a religious symbol, even if it's inaccurately applied due to other circumstances, and so the original contradiction still exists.
Here the contradiction is between the law requiring clothes and the fact that clothes inherently convey a religious message, so "you must wear clothes that convey no religious message" is an impossible condition.
Yes, I glossed over some things, like not all Jains go naked, but it's not truly important to the argument. Replace "Jain" with "Digambar monk" and the argument gets more accurate but much harder to follow, don't you think?
--
I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
The issue is not about if there is re-incarnation or not, but about intolerance.
g e&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:off icial&client=firefox-a
Buddhism has been under siege not only by the Chinese government, but also by intolerant people all over the world for a very long time. It is sad that such a peaceful and tolerant religion being destroyed by those "that think they know the will of God"
http://www.google.com/search?q=buddhism+under+sie
As someone on one of the other forums I read commented a couple of weeks back when this was news, "The People's Republic of China has jumped the shark."
Now, imagine what would happen if, at some point after this declaration, there stopped being births in the PRC. People would fall all over themselves trying to figure it out, because it would answer the "when does the embryo turn into a person" question.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
It's not math - taking it to what you think is its logical conclusion changes its nature.
From their perspective, they're reining in extreme members of their society, moving them back
towards a mainstream lifestyle that they've decided to recognise.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
2112 - Rush We've taken care of everything The words you hear, the songs you sing The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes. It's one for all and all for one We work together, common sons Never need to wonder how or why. We are the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Our great computers fill the hallowed halls. We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx All the gifts of life are held within our walls. Look around at this world we've made Equality our stock in trade Come and join the Brotherhood of Man Oh, what a nice, contented world Let the banners be unfurled Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand. We are the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Our great computers fill the hallowed halls. We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx All the gifts of life are held within our walls And for all those clueless people out there: No, just because this lyrics talks about priests is not the monks that I am mocking at.
Your ad could be here!
I assume you're trolling, but the core beliefs of Buddhism are considerably less weird than believing that, say, the Universe is about 6000 years old, or that God magically impregnated a woman who gave birth to a human being who was, somehow, also God. The Buddha is not a God, and his teachings are really quite practical. And Buddhists do not really make any supernatural claims. They have beliefs about the way the Universe actually is which may or may not be silly but do at least take into account vast amounts of time and the existence of other worlds.
The Chinese government, on the other hand, believes and brainwashes people into a materialistic religion which is derived from Judaeo-Christianity and substitutes for the war between God and the Devil a war between social classes. Not long ago they were telling children to worship Mao. Currently they are telling people to get rich by doing what corrupt Party officials and businessmen tell them. They are polluting their country to the extent that the WHO estimates three quarters of a million avoidable extra deaths a year. They are constantly threatening free and democratic Taiwan with being annexed. If I lived in China, I could find a lot more things to worry about than the beliefs of a few Buddhists in the mountains.
Pining for the fjords
actually they did. During the "Cultural Revolution" Mao declared birds responsible for crop damage and village cadres were soon fighting over who had exterminated the most birds. The following year and for a quite a few years after that, the crop damage from insects was fairly substantial. They gave that up and took on the challenge of small scale steel production - see previous sentence and replace "exterminated" for "produced" and "birds" for "useless slag". This resulted in no trees, which were used to fuel the smelting operations and virtually no iron pots, tools, utensils or bits off the nearest site of important cultural and scientific interest (easier to melt).
... well everything really.
Other enlightened activities from the People's Paradise included the public humilation and beating of teachers and academics (those well known threats to the very fabric of society) in the streets.
It should come as no surprise to anyone who reads slashdot that a) the Chinese concept of government is a rather loose term and b) that regular news scraped from msnbc about Bhuddism, the Chinese and er.. religion is somewhat short of the mark as far as news for nerds goes. It should be common knowledge amongst this readership and if not shouldn't you be listening to the Skeptics podcast? http://www.theskepticsguide.org/ or even reading other material?
Oh, and I am surprised at the absence of a surfeit of comments mentioning how all of the vitriol here is counter to almost everything the present Dalai Lama has said on
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
I think he should reincarnate wherever he's needed most.
...only outlaws will reincarnate!
Hmm, but do they have to? Having a foreskin after 8 days of age is a better indicator of non-Jewishness than not having one is of being a Jew. Still, you wouldn't say that circumcision isn't a religious and symbolic thing to Jews.
I'm thinking that if something (or the lack of something) can be seen as a religious symbol, then it ipso facto is, regardless of the accuracy of that perception.
--
I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
I think it's save to say that the turkish people existed a long time before the state Republic of Turkey came into being. As with many nation-states today, the name of the nationality is used as an adjective or modifier indicating that the current incarnation of the state (legal entity) is preceded by the nation (or people) it contains. Your statement is akin to saying german culture replaced the culture of the third reich after 1945 i.e. stupid.
___
No power in the 'verse can stop me
"uncontrolled exercise of all religious aspects"
This is BS. How would you feel if I will tell to your mother or daughter or sister what to where?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
What kind of insane moderation is this? GP is not offtopic and P IS offtopic???
Are you braindead, moddy? Or you just happen to have your marbles replaced to little green footballs?
Here, take another hit, moron. Like I care about your stinking moderation...
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
...have my reincarnated soul when you take it from my warm, newly-living hands!
...but it's being eaten...by some...Linux or something...
1. Well, the funny thing is, the Tibetan theocracy is based on the idea that essentially they didn't have several Dalai Lamas. They had exactly one, which was reincarnated again and again and again in different bodies, but still was the same guy.
h em. It was the same gang at the top all along, uninterrupted.
I can see how that had a stabilizing effect, though. It's hard to argue the legitimacy of a succession when, so we're told, there was no succession, silly. There never was one. It's the same guy on the combined secular and spiritual throne, for the last several centuries straight.
Now if you're more secular minded, like I am, you probably won't give a damn about such claims. Pfft, of course there were several Dalai Lamas, and each must be judged by his own merits and shortcomings.
But let's pretend that we believed that reincarnation claim. There was always the same guy on the throne. The same applies to most of the other Lamas, btw. So essentially the not only they had the same ruler all along, but they had the same guys as his councillors/cardinals/whatever-you-want-to-call-t
Then, pray tell, why _shouldn't_ we hold him responsible for what he's done at various points in the last few hundred years?
Since you mention the Tsar, I'd do the same if there was one and the same Tsar on their throne ever since Ivan the Terrible assumed that title. If anyone's claim to authority was that he, essentially, _is_ Ivan the Terrible, plus all other Tsars ever since... then I'd also hold him responsible for all the atrocities those did at various points.
2. The point that things sucked everywhere if you go far enough in the past, is true and insightful, but it still doesn't remove another question: then how enlightened were they after all?
A lot of disillusioned westerners have this idea that even shit smells great if it's packed as some ancient asian mysticism. Surely every single religion, cult, superstition, heresy or divine right excuse is pure enlightenment, if it comes from the far east. And their monks and gurus? Whoa, if they're from the far east, they surely were all enlightened, selfless, generous, open-minded, and so learned that they were a walking Wikipedia. Why surely if you gave a bunch of them secular power, that'd rock, right?
So then you look at one state that was ruled like that, and the best that you can say is, well, as you were saying, that it wasn't much worse than any other medieval totalitarian state.
Basically to answer to your example about the European medieval kings of 1300: no, of course, I wouldn't condemn them for being medieval back then. But I wouldn't hold them as an enlightenment model for the present generation either.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
In soviet china Chairman Mao reincarnates you.
And then casts FROSTSHOCK to pwn Chinese gold farmer FTW!
Ryukyu Islands.
There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
So, having decided that you do not like religious people, the question still stands; how much have you studied religion? Do you know anything about the eightfold path? What the difference between Mecca and Medina is? What a pharasee is, versus a zealot? Who really got the Protestant revolution rolling?
Because however you feel about the people who choose to practice religion today, and devote more of their life to it than to other pursuits, religion as a cultural force is incredibly powerful and far reaching in our history. More to the point it fueled a great deal of our modern philosophy - including most secular and scientific philosophy that is considered to be the greatest enlightened thinking of our day. Few people question the cultural role of the Dalai Lamas in the past because the philosophical ideas that Buddhism has spread are so powerful; and ultimately, the culture is changing in the face of the twenty first century. Similarly, no one cares that the House of David probably was not exactly the beneficent dictator we'd like to think. Life is incredibly hard in poor countries. Harder still in poor countries without technology. Even harder in poor countries without democracy.
If you don't believe in the righteousness of the Dalai Lama's cause, then don't stand for it. That is fair. But doing so on the basis of his forerunner's cultural environment is sort of like saying the Constitution isn't worth fighting for because it was written by slave owners. There has to be a recognition that society is a living thing, changes, and despite the fact that we all came from feces-flinging monkeys, we've still got a case.
[Ego]out
exactly how the fuck do they plan to enforce this? Thought control much?
That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.
Volume discounts available for the major religions.
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
And in other news, the Colonial Government in Exile has legislated the same strictures on all Cylon Humanoid models -- except for Six's who agree to exclusively be love slaves and/or concubines.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
you'll be an undocumented reincarnation
(actually, many practicing Buddhists are too - although the Tibetans more tend to polytheism)
Buddhists are non-theistic, and that includes Tibetans. The buddhists "deities" are not considered gods, and are not worshipped. There are practises to connect with various energies - but there's nothing, absolutely, that is outside of oneself, that will "save" or "protect" you. In fact, Buddhist theorists say that everything that happens, happens in your mind. Have you ever experienced anything that wasn't in your mind? In Buddhism, you're on your own in the strictest sense.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
...used to have timely, cutting-edge news? Now, almost without exception, I have seen the articles on slashdot several days prior at other sites. As more responsive and more numerous tech-centric sites pop up, and as slashdot's political group-think becomes more pervasive and mindless, this site is becoming less relevant as a daily "must read" site.
Something to consider.
What the Chinese are banning isn't actually the reincarnation of the lamas, but the recognition thereof. It has happened before, when the Dali Lama banned the reincarnation of the Sharmapa, second in the Kagyu lineage and a perceived political rival. The Sharmapa of course, did reincarnate and fulfilled his spiritual role in the lineage, but was unable to play any political role.
Remember that the Dali Lama's Tibet was a fully medival feudal system in which the Rinpoches were the feudal lords.
The Chinese government hasn't been banning the practice of Buddhism in recent years, they have just been disbanding the large monasteries that are also centers of political and economic power in the old system.
By banning the reincarnation of lamas and thus their political role, they are simply moving to remove Buddhism as a political rival. They aren't actually barring the teachings or spiritual roles of the Rinpoches.
They call it 'reintarnation'.
Have gnu, will travel.
...of course!
YOU personally can not. Except perhaps in your own home, where they would have the choice of either complying or leaving.
If society tells my daughter to wear clothes in public, she has to comply or stay home. If she choses to disobey society and go out in the public totally naked, she will be arrested and taken of the streets.
If society tells my daughter she can not pursue a political career wearing a Burka (or becoming a Police officer wearing a Burka) she will have to choose another line of work or loose the burka.
How on earth is it BS? I need arguments, not bad language.
Society is allready telling you what to wear, and in part how to wear it (for instance if you wear your pants on your head and your t-shirt on your ass you will be locked away by society as well). The ONLY thing which is open for debate here, is the limits of these restrictions. Not if they do or do not exist. They do - beyond any questioning.
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
German laws circa 1937 were quite neutral to all Jews. Do you listen to yourself, atheists? I looked into that. You seem to be mistaken. Or perhaps you would elaborate what you mean, and which laws you refer to?
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
It must be frustrating for statist control freaks to pass law after law only to see them ignored on some scale, be it large or small. So this is the perfect law - nobody will ever break it. They should next pass laws against faster than light travel, going back in time, resurrection, speaking to the dead etc.
Of course, given China's current program of encouraging Chinese to move to Tibet, it's not clear how long that'll be true - depends partly on the politics, and partly on whether the economics of Tibet can support a large immigrant population. The business / middle-class sector is rapidly absorbing Chinese immigrants, but that doesn't mean that significant numbers of Chinese want to become nomadic yak herders or small-holding barley farmers or other agriculturalists, who are most of the population outside Lhasa.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
How ironic, because, the University of Illinois where I work just banned Orcs after an long and tenuous debate.
What the Dali Lama should say On behalf of Buddhist people everywhere.
I hereby forbid any Chinese bureaucrat anywhere to reincarnate under any circumstances!
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Llamas seem to be fairly popular in the rural areas around San Francisco. So is naming them "Dalai" or "Dolly" or whatever, though the only llama-owning friend of mine around here did enough Tibetan Buddhism that she could be slightly excused for doing so.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
That's not due to Buddhism. It's due to strong community bonds and goodwill.
If a community bands together and its members all work to help each other, then even if they're very, very poor, you'll find that the people are happier and friendlier.
Of course, religion may very well encourage that in some cases, and it's certainly helpful in that regard.
It's not just that you need surviving kids to remember you after you're gone - it's that you need surviving kids to take care of you in your old age when you can no longer hunt or do heavy farm work yourself. That _is_ how Social Security used to work in most of the world, though in more communal villages it might be other people's kids as well as your own.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
It's certainly not off-topic - headscarf laws are an offensive government interference into religion, just as this is, though they don't have the same level of absurdity to them.
(And of course just because government shouldn't be banning the things, that doesn't mean banks are likely to allow masked people into their buildings. On the other hand, in the cultures where women wear the things, they can send their husband or father to the cash machine when they need money, so they don't need to go to the bank themselves.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Of course that's different here in Northern California, where a nude beach just means that when you change out of your wetsuit into your sweats, it's foggy enough that nobody's going to see you so they don't care if your naked...
The Wikipedia article on the Karmapa Succession Controversy talks about the issue some - apparently in the 1790s, the Tibetan government forbade the Sharmapa lama from reincarnating, among other things because his job was to recognize the newly reincarnated Karmapa lama, who's the first line of reincarnated lamas. So the next few Sharmapa reincarnations stayed secret and did their job undercover.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
It is not about "Wearing clothes", it is about wearing jeans. Or particular style of shirt, or something else particular.
It is not a problem of following prohibitions, it is ridiculousness of those prohibitions and their inadequacy of general principles of French constitution. Liberte? Comprende?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
The only source for this is MSNBC (I've been unable to find another reference to this event that doesn't link them) and they've made no attempt to report this objectively. Obviously done by somebody on the "news of the weird" beat.
I find it unlikely that the Chinese government (for whom dialectical materialism is still official dogma) really believes in reincarnation, never mind their own ability to regulate it. What's probably happened is that the government has claimed the right to appoint the hierarchy of Tibetan Buddhism, something they've already done for other sects. Since each important Tibetan Buddhist leader is considered the reincarnation of his predecessor, they are, in effect, asserting control over the Buddhist hierarchy's right to reincarnate.
What this means is that when the current Dalai Lama dies, Tibetans outside of China will "discover" his successor outside China, and Tibetans inside will "discover" his successor inside China. So you'll have two Dalai Lamas, one approved by the Chinese government, one not. If you look at it seriously and stop looking to make a joke out of it, it's a case of a government that pretends to honor freedom of religion, but is actually less than tolerant. Nothing to laugh about.
It means all the Jews were treated equally or almost equally bad.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Why do some people remark this is as not absurd or funny? Although intriguing, this law is one of the most ridiculous thing I've heard of. How does one come to the conclusion of stopping such a thing?
:)
(Yes...I did read the article and do understand the political agenda behind it.)
Sounds interesting, but somewhat speculative of the idea of choosing your reincarnation:
"The Dalai Lama says he won't reincarnate in Tibet".
A quick lesson:
It's also quite interesting to note how different religions are formed. There were three religions created out of Hinduism (which, by the way for most of you that are ill informed is not a religion per se): Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism. Each of the founders of those religions had different understanding of Hinduism and supposedly enlightened, to form their own followings (whether they wished it to be or not). The word Hindu was formed out of the word Indu, referring to those from the region of the Indus valley or the modern day of India. So technically it has nothing to do with religion. Most, including Hindus themselves, don't know the true name for the "Hinduism". I gotta leave something for your curiosity.
And all you atheists, you pretty much are saying: "I was born by myself...I didn't have parents!."
then only criminals will be re-incarnating.
OK, I still don't understand you.
...
Are you trying to say, that the Islamic injunction which oppresses women and forces them to wear headscarfs (no matter if they want or not) is less oppressive than laws in France or Germany which dictate that nobody may wear strong religious symbols in public institutions? (btw while totally allowing them to wear whatever they please when they are not in a public institution)
Think well before you answer
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
That is not in dispute here? Please explain your point more clear?
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
Sour grapes.
People have been complaining about Slashdot from the day of its inception, but it's still a great place to examine the world and put your ideas through a crucible where science and rational thinking are the flames people have agreed upon as being the best human kind has to offer when deconstructing ideas. I have a tough time of it here, because my ideas are non orthodox by most standards, but you don't see me crying foul or trying to use false-rationalization to pretend to myself that the whole site is worthless simply because my ideas are picked at. I keep coming back here precisely because there are so many different kinds of stripe and opinion willing to engage in debate. That's hardly 'Group Think'.
And 'Group Think' about what exactly? 'Group Think,' appears to have become the latest term being slung around now that, 'Red', and 'Bleeding Heart' have been reduced to jokes in our culture. Say what you really mean and be prepared to back up your comments and judgments instead of skulking around. There's a soap box for you if you're brave enough to stand on it and speak clearly. But you'll have to work for it. Maybe it would be easier just to say, "Screw you guys! I'm taking my toys and going home."
-FL
...I challenge the validity of any statistical surveys of American religion, recent polls show 94% of Americans believe in the Judeo-Christian God, and 32% attended church more than once last year. Now of the remaining 6%, 333% of them believe in Reincarnation. Otherwise everyone lies on polls, and polls are inherently horridly flawed....
On a similar note, 80% of those (5 people) I surveyed on a Greyhound bus last weekend believed Osama Bin Laden lives in Florida and is on weekly dialysis, and that he has lunch with Bush weekly. (I'm serious).
Maybe the Chinese Government and Greyhound are the same entity....
Hrmm. No wonder I failed logic class.
So let's get into "carnating" right now, good lookin'!
from http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/47thestingyarti
The Stingy Artist
Gessen was an artist monk. Before he would start a drawing or painting he always insisted upon being paid in advance, and his fees were high. He was known as the "Stingy Artist."
A geisha once gave him a commission for a painting. "How much can you pay?" inquired Gessen.
"Whatever you charge," replied the girl, "but I want you to do the work in front of me."
So on a certain day Gessen was called by the geisha. She was holding a feast for her patron.
Gessen with fine brush work did the painting. When it was completed he asked the highest sum of his time.
He received his pay. Then the geisha turned to her patron, saying: "All this artist wants is money. His paintings are fine but his mind is dirty; money has caused it to become muddy. Drawn by such a filthy mind, his work is not fit to exhibit. It is just about good enough for one of my petticoats."
Removing her skirt, she then asked Gessen to do another picture on the back of her petticoat.
"How much will you pay?" asked Gessen.
"Oh, any amount," answered the girl.
Gessen named a fancy price, painted the picture in the manner requested, and went away.
It was learned later that Gessen had these reasons for desiring money:
A ravaging famine often visited his province. The rich would not help the poor, so Gessen had a secret warehouse, unknown to anyone, which he kept filled with grain, prepared for those emergencies.
From his village to the National Shrine the road was in very poor condition and many travellers suffered while traversing it. He desired to build a better road.
His teacher had passed away without realizing his wish to build a temple, and Gessen wished to complete this temple for him.
After Gessen had accomplished his three wishes he threw away his brushes and artist's materials and, retiring to the mountains, never painted again.
-=-=-
FYI ...
Time To Reassess Tibet Policy
by A. Tom Grunfeld
The Progressive Response
(Editor's Note: As the debate in Congress over granting China permanent normal trading status heats up, the complexity of U.S.-China relations will be on display. Contributing to that complexity is Washington's ambiguous policy toward Tibet. A new FPIF policy brief, excerpted below, the examines the history and current status of the U.S. approach to Tibet.)
The flight of the 17th Karmapa Lama from Tibet to India in January 2000 catapulted Tibet back into the world headlines, creating an opportunity for both China and the U. S. to reassess their policies toward Tibet.
Tibet's status has been intertwined with China since the 7th century through marriages, wars, and treaties. Mongol conquests in the 13th century made Tibet part of a Mongol-ruled Chinese state, while four centuries later the ethnic Manchu Q'ing dynasty further incorporated Tibet into China. In 1912 the13th Dalai Lama's unilaterally declared independence in 1912 but two years later signed a treaty granting Chinese "suzerainty" and direct rule over "Inner Tibet" while "Outer Tibet" remained under Tibetan autonomy. When the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) reestablished strong central government in 1949, Tibet was regarded as politically "integral" with China but in fact so autonomous that Beijing insisted on a incorporation "treaty" to preempt any claims of independence. But the CCP refrained from stamping out feudalism and theocratic rule. Twice in the 1950s Mao Zedong assured the Dalai Lama that China would make no further inroads against de facto Tibetan autonomy. This policy, however, applied only to Outer Tibet or what was later called the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR). Other ethnic Tibetan areas, known as Amdo and Kham (Inner Tibet) underwent political transformation.
This process of integration sparked rebellion, and minor insurrections in Kham/Sichuan turned into open revolt by1956. Soon support came from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), which as eager to destabilize the communist government. China's suppression of a 1959 revolt forced the Dalai Lama and 50-60,000 Tibetans into exile. Beijing then subjected the TAR to political and social integration, ending Lhasa's autonomous rule. During the Cultural Revolution the Red Guards, both Chinese and Tibetan, engaged in wholesale destruction of almost every religious building in Tibet, paralleling antireligious campaigns throughout China. From exile, the Dalai Lama directed refugee resettlement and guerrilla warfare-although he officially renounced all violence. CIA support encouraged insurgent Tibetans to continue their war for independence, but the CIA was more interested in harassing communist China than in Tibetan independence. Following the 1971 visit to Beijing by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the U.S. cut off its support to the Tibetan resistance. The Tibetan rebellion of 15 years quickly dissipated; the Tibetans had been unable to create a sustainable, free-standing military force after 15 years.
By the late 1970s China began relaxing its grip on Tibet. In 1978 the Panchen Lama was released from detention, and he began championing the preservation of Tibetan culture. A new round of Dalai Lama-Beijing contacts resulted in several Tibetan-exile delegations visiting Tibet. After these talks faltered in the1980s, the Dalai Lama decided to promote his cause internationally, believing that increased foreign pressure generated by his "Tibet Lobby" would force Beijing to renew serious negotiations. Rising international attention and continued unrest in Tibet sparked a policy debate within China. The moderates argued for more freedom for Tibetan cultural practices and the return of the Dalai Lama, while the hardliners (many of them Tibetan governmental and party officials) urged ending ties to the Dalai Lama and repressing all expressions of Tibetan nationalism.
After the Panchen Lama's sudden death in January 1989, the Dalai Lama was invited for religious funerary ceremonies in Beijing.
Chinese history stretches back long enough that it's problematic for anyone to say that China is definitively anything. The Chinese Communist Party talks a lot about historical claims to this or that, such as Taiwan or Tibet. They base all their propaganda on it. But they're claims with feet of clay, so to speak.
The historical claims are many and conflict. For instance, we could just as easily and with equal evidence and authority back Mongolia's claim to all the territory we currently describe as "China" on the world map. Genghis Khan did conquer Han kingdoms fair and square and totally subjugate them. So perhaps Beijing and mainland Han should quit their bellyaching and submit to Ulan Bator's rightful historical claim to primacy over the People's Republic.
Or we could, ironically enough, substantiate Tibet's claim to a huge chunk of territory currently ascribed to "China." They won and subjugated that fair and square, too.
Or we could argue pretty forcefully that "China" belongs to the Manchus, since they thoroughly conquered China and formed its last dynasty, the Qing. Much of what we in the West think of as Chinese hallmarks (topknots, qi paos, those vests and leggings men used to wear) are Manchu in origin.
Even Han areas themselves have been separate kingdoms at many times throughout history, including the period of time when the South was a kingdom ruled from Nanjing "South Capital," and the North a kingdom ruled from Beijing "North Capital."
So China is now and always has been a completely artificial amalgam held together by force of arms. And given Beijing's policies of forced sterilization, Han colonization, and ethnic cleansing it does not appear as though the minorities that find themselves within the border of "China" will be able to get away from it for a long time, if ever. It sucks, but that's the reality.
The parent poster brought up the diversity of those elements that constitute China as an argument against self-determination for the Tibetans and other ethnic minorities in China like Mongols and Uighurs. After all, if everyone in China can't understand what in the heck the people from the next province over are saying, then why should the Tibetans be so special as to get to have their own country? But really, in a back-handed way it points up how absurd is the notion of a unified China that Beijing is always going on about. "China" is so fractious that it makes the San Andreas look like the Rock of Gibraltar. One hard push like an economic or environmental collapse and "China" would dissolve into a bloody civil war with 15 sides.
As a last, tangential, and completely personal aside, it would be wonderfully novel and refreshing if people educated in China could ever come out with a comment or point of view that's not state-sanctioned. But seeing's how the official history books there can all be summed up with "5000 years of history blah blah blah some stuff happened blah blah blah and then glorious Communism came to the People," it's probably a forlorn hope.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Arsen Darnay, "The Karma Affair". What if people actually could control reincarnation via technology? In Darnay's book, it was used as part of a long-term solution to nuclear waste storage. Breed priests who keep the stuff isolated, by needing it close down deep in their soul. Scary book, really. Scary. Afraid to re-read it scary.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Excellent point about Britain and America.
China also claims that Taiwan is a "rogue province" even though their island has never been governed (or even occupied) by the Communist party. The current government of Taiwan evolved from the government that was in control of mainland China before the Communists took over. Taiwan was the only piece of land the Red army didn't conquer.
Fortunately, the old government stole a lot of priceless ancient Chinese art on their way out, and they now have it on display in museums... most of what was left behind was destroyed in the Cultural Revolution.
Taiwan has a democratic government which the United States has been pressured to step away from in recent years by the People's Republic of China... And they make a heck of a motherboard! I will be very sad when they get invaded and we do nothing about it because the PRC owns us.
My truck is like a series of tubes.
Offtopic or not, your comment was not right.
According to wikipedia and to my own not native use of English
headscarves and veils used for Muslim religious dress include:
* burqa
* chador
* niqab
* dupatta
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Ooops. But the popular Slashdot slogan doesn't actually include the term, "IT". --Except for those rare days when it mentions, "It is what IT is", (which is rather Buddhist sounding if you ask me). But that's neither here nor there since that's not the popular quote people use to define Slashdot.
Basically, in trying to understand Slashdot's mission statement, I always remember myself back to the highschool hallways when I'd hang out with other geeks. If a subject would have come up back then and have been gleefully examined and discussed, then it is fair game on this website as well. Yeah, most of my geek friends were computer lovers as well, and Slashdot being hosted on the internet usually puts computers front and center. But nevertheless. . , perhaps news of a government trying to outlaw reincarnation would not have interested you or your friends, but I know we'd have had a field day with it in my geek crew!
400+ posts can't be wrong.
Slashdot is the electronic version of the highschool geek hangout for all ages.
-FL
The comparison probably is valid - it's too hard for China to stop people listening to the Dalai Lama but somebody wants to be seen to be doing something to justify his position.
Women who wear hijab in France wear it out of their own conviction. What are you, crazy? You think people running women slave trade in France?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I just illustrated your idiotic argument of everybody (religious, not really everybody) being treated equally. Equally bad.
Comprende, moron?
Stop writing to me, my IQ is plummeting because of those conversations with such idiots like you.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Anyone else read Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny? The government of "gods" control technology that allows people to reincarnate, and they only let the "good" people use it.
Technically true, but moot. Modern intensive farming techniques require machinery that needs fuel. Then additional fuel is needed for machines to transport food to cities, where most people live. And finally fuel is used to refridgerate, heat, and otherwise process food. So technically food is more important, but we wouldn't have food without fuel.
Actually Cuba is and has shown a lot of petroleum fuel isn't needed to grow enough food. City Farms and city gardens as gaining as a method of growing food for cities, and Cuba basically started it. After the Soviet Union collapsed and Cuba lost the support from the SU, the government started encouraging city residents to grow food in small private gardens as well as city gardens and farms. While not everyone in a city could or will grow food many can do so, and others will leave the cities to rural locations where they can grow more food. Farming and large scale gardening will require more people to work but between growing some of their own food or working on a farm and starving at least some people will do so.
FalconShould there be a Law?
You're suggesting that somehow the whoooole rest of the frickin world would die if America stopped exporting stuff?
Actually if the US, along with the EU and Japan stopped subsidizing food exports third world nations would then grow more food themselves. Because First World nations heavily subsidize agriculture they are able to export food to third world nations cheaper than people in those countries can grow it. That's one of the reason the US has as many "illegal aliens" or immigrants from Mexico. Because of NAFTA US agribusiness can grow corn in the US, export it to Mexico, and sell it cheaper than Mexican farmers spend growing it. Farm subsidies are a hugh problem in world trade talks, as with the WTO. Africa, Brazil, and India and well as others refuse to open up their markets unless the EU, Japan, and USA stop subsidizing agriculture.
FalconShould there be a Law?
How do you store food without power? I can store frozen burger patties in my freezer for quite some time. Without a freezer how would you do it?
It was a bad choice of words perhaps. Yes power is needed but the power doesn't have to be derived of petroleum, or coal. Two ways I know of to preserve food without refrigerating or freezing is canning and dehydrating food. I live alone yet I have a lot of tomatoes and tomatilos growing in my garden this year. I'll use them to make sauces, salsas, and soups then I'll can them. I also have broccoli and cauliflower which I may also use to make soup. I don't have any this year but if and when I have grapes and or berries, I planted blueberries but they didn't survive, I could dehydrate them, make jams and or brew some wine, or fruity beer. And yes, I've done these, canning and made beer and wine.
FalconShould there be a Law?
If I were starving I'd plant some food in my backyard and most people would do the same in their backyards, though I have no idea what people in places like NYC would do.
Cities could start city farms.
FalconShould there be a Law?
You better plant some food long before you start to starve or your going to be dining on grass soap with an main course of roast tree bark.
Growing up I knew how to live and eat in the woods. Where I grew up I knew where to look for water, what plants were edible, and how to trap small game. There are field guides available in bookstores that can help with this. As for grass, some grasses are in our diet, both corn and rice are grass. And the bark of some trees are edible as well.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I wonder what exactly the big concern is with nuclear power. We wouldn't have such a large waste problem if we'd just reprocess the fuel, and who cares if it yields weapons-grade plutonium? Security risk, boo hoo... Really, we might as well use the plutonium for fuel too.
I do admit I don't know entirely about the economic feasibility of it, but France seems to be getting along fine with their large nuclear power system.
France has come the farthest is reprocessing nuclear fuel yet they still have problems. Reprocessing creates waste that's even hotter than before and it creates a lot of toxic residue. IEEE"s "Spectrum" has an article on France's reprocessing, Nuclear Wasteland . It goes over some of the problems France has with reprocessing.
FalconShould there be a Law?
2. Because Marxism is built on the assumption of historically inevitable economic changes. History goes from capitalism, to socialism, to communism
After reading this, I'm wonder what to make of the rest of your post. From what I recall of Marx, he said economic history starts with feudalism, progresses to capitalism, then goes to communism.
FalconShould there be a Law?
And that this wouldn't undermine capitalism within any particular nation provided that it was done by force of the state rather than whim of the capitalist.
I'm wonder if you know what capitalism is. As anyone who's read Adam Smith, especially "On Wealth of Nations" , should know there is not capitalism if there's governmental interference. Capitalism requires a voluntary exchange but when government is there there is no voluntary exchange. Government puts restrictions on all sorts of things.
Also, if you are right, then wages globally should rise in proportion to productive output as capitalism becomes more competitive. That's actually not what happens. And that's why illegal aliens in the US earn lower -- not higher -- wages for doing the work that (supposedly) workers in the US aren't willing to do.
Ah, while those so called "illegal aliens" or immigrants aren't making as much as an American would make doing the same job those immigrants still make a lot more money than they made at home in Mexico. Mexicans sent hme, back to Mexico, some $23 million in 2006. That's Mexico's second biggest source of international income. The biggest is oil, after Canada Mexico is the US's biggest supplier of oil. As for why US citizens aren't doing those jobs, because they want to be paid more than the employers are willing to or can pay.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Just as the authors of the Declaration of Independence in the US invoked God but sensibly left it out of the Constitution, Marx's early view of the post-revolutionary state was left out of Capital.
Actually The Writer of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, didn't invoke "God". His words were "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God". TJ didn't believe in "God" as most Christians do and did. Neither did he believe in Christ as most do. TJ was a Deist, and while he believed Jesus was a great teacher he didn't believe he was the "Son of God". He even went so far as to take all of the passages about miracles and such out of a bible to create his Jefferson's Bible. He wrote to his son that religion was a private matter and that's where it should stay. Of course even back then a lot of Christian ministers were against him and painted him as a devil worshipper.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama, was born in 1935. That means he was 24 years old when he escaped from Tibet --- more than old enough to realize the moral implications of owning slaves.
If China hadn't invaded, he might have reformed the Feudal system later, going with the time.
As far as I know, Gyatso has never actually denounced slavery. If he had done so, he would have lost the support of the exiled ruling class, who were nearly all former slave owners.
Comprende, moron?
Stop writing to me, my IQ is plummeting because of those conversations with such idiots like you.
Question: Can a negative IQ actually be "plummeting"?
I don't think you have illustrated anything, other than your apparent lack of arguments, and your inability to engage in a good debate. Your response to solid arguments and fair questions is foul language and negative attitude.
And you still haven't explained how or why (from a sociological point of view) you think having rules in a society is bad, or why religious needs should exceed the needs of society as a whole.
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
"A register of al the incarnate gods in the Chinese Empire is kept in the Li Fan Yüan or Colonial Office at Peking. The number of gods who have thus taken out a license is one hundred and sixty. Tibet is blessed with thirty of them, Northern Mongolia rejoices in nineteen and Southern Mongolia basks in the sunshine of no less than fifty-seven. The Chinese government with a paternal solicitude for the welfare of its subjects, forbids the gods on the register to be reborn anywhere but in Tibet."
J.G. Frazer, The Golden Bough: A study in Magic and Religion, (London, 1922), page 136 (Abridged Edition)
the Communist Party of China really gives us a good laugh every day. Too bad we can laugh only because we are out of their secret police's reach. Unfortunately those who live in the territories they control have to take all this crap seriously or risk being thrown to a prison cell for life. Next time you have a choice between a Chinese product and another country's product (eg Taiwan or Japan), remember that CPC gets a share of the revenues. You wouldn't want to support such a criminal government, would you? Chinese people deserve to live in a free democratic society, and as long as we buy PRC products we make their government stronger and that's bad for everyone on this planet, not just for the Chinese.
Hmm.. in this country there aren't enough farmers, so subsidies are basically the only way to keep local farmers in business! If there is a steady stream of imported foods then that's fine, but in a serious war situation or if there was some kind of trade blockade in and out of our country we'd be pretty screwed without any national agriculture.. :P
Thing is is most of the farm subsidies go to big agribusinesses like ConAgra, Archer Damiels Midland, and others. Small farmers don't see much of the billions of dollars in farm subsidies in the US.
FalconShould there be a Law?
But the original point was that the majority of people can't do what you do. People who live in densely populated areas can't grow much, let alone enough to feed them for a winter. 5.4 billion people WOULD probably die, leaving 600m people like you. Luckily, I live right next door to a corn field (lucky until they spread the fertilizer that is) and there are woods full of animals across the street. But there are a lot of people who don't live near other sources of food.
Up until the last generation most people lived in rural ares not in cities. Some of the fastest growing cities like Mexico City and Rio de Janeiro, Brazil are growing because rural people living and working on farms are being driven off their farms because they can't compeat with international agricultural businesses. I don't know where you're from or live but if you're in the US have you ever wondered why there are so many "illegal aliens" or immigrants from Mexico? One reason is because US agribusinesses can grow food like corn and exports it to Mexico cheaper than Mexican farmers can grow corn. The US subsidizes agribusiness to the tune of billions of taxpayer dollars a year. With NAFTA in force they can then export food and sell it in Mexico cheaply. This is the biggest reason the WTO talks failed, countries in Africa, as well as Brazil and India demanded the EU, Japan, and the US to stop subsidizing their farms. The US agreed to reduce subsidizes some but the EU and Japan wouldn't. If the First World countries stopped farm subsidies then more Third World farmers could stay on their farms.
FalconShould there be a Law?