Slashdot Mirror
Don't Dismiss Online Relationships As Fantasy
Columnist Regina Lynn has a look at how online relationships seem to be blurring the lines between fantasy and reality. "The common thread among these stories is that people get deeply involved in online relationships and make decisions about their real lives. Calling any of these online relationships 'fantasy' dismisses the impact they have on the people involved and on those closest to them... I have yet to encounter anything that challenges my core belief: Relationships are real wherever they form."
I'm a nerd, remember?
They are real alright. People just get mocked for trusting someone whom they have never seen, smelled or heard, who has only given them words. Lip-service isn't what you want to go for in a relation.
i found out my beautiful elf princess was really a 56 year old man
FOXTROT UNIFORM CHARLIE KILO
Relationships are only as real as the people in them. If the person is pretending to be something their not, even by a little bit, that can be greatly magnified online. As long as the relationship STAYS online, it's fine... But meeting the person in real life can be a disaster.
So sure, don't just dismiss them as fantasy, but don't just accept them as reality, either. Same as pretty much everything else in the world.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
This reminds me of a hilarious story a friend of mine told me about his Everquest days...
Apparently a group of players decided they're gonna have two of their friends get married in the game, complete with ceremony. I mean they were really serious about this! They apparently sent out invitations and got all worked up over it like it was real.
Unfortunately, upon hearing this, my friend built up an army of warriors to pay a visit to this little event. As the bride and groom exchanged vows, they charged in like Lancelot and began their slaughter. A paralyze spell was used on the bride who was then carried off onto a boat. The groom was hacked to bits and the rest of the wedding party was killed off as the bride and her captor sailed off into the sunset.
Now I have to ask myself this: Do those people have a right to be upset that their "wedding" was so rudely interrupted? Or did this serve as a healthy eye-opener to the ludicracy of the situation and a much needed return to reality for all persons involved?
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while I believe these online relationships may indeed be very strong, there comes a point where you're just going taking this "fantasy" too far. There comes a point where you have to face reality, not escape it. Otherwise we will lose our ability to deal with problems in the real world.
Caller: "When his pet hamster died he yelled, 'Mommy, mommy, where's the reset button?' Lazlo, life does not have a reset button." Lazlo: "But this radio show does! -click- I love that button..."
Capitalism: When it uses the carrot, it's called democracy. When it uses the stick, it's called fascism.
Everyone found out I was a 25-year old man instead of a Nubile female Paladin ;p
That Aside, the article is pretty much spot on. In terms of developing who I am and what matters to me, I've recieved far more moral support and guidance from those I MuD'd with than I did in most cases from my circle of friends. Largely because the MuD group was more balanced in viewpoints.
The author doesn't mention this, but I would just like to state that this usually does not apply to MMORPGs. I have seen "friendships" breakup so someone could boost their Stamina. While I'm sure some real friendships do take hold in that environment, most are purely superficial. Or at least that has been my experience in my 6 or so years of online gaming.
recently i had a discussion with a friend concerning the nature of community in general and in particular the relationships that make up the online gaming experience. the emotions felt are real. the connections made between individuals are real. therefore imo online relationships are real just as the ones i experience in the office or at home or at the coffee shop are. however, while they may be real, because they comprise real human experience, they are qualitatively different. and i think that this is where it becomes difficult. we haven't related to each other in the ways presented through this new medium, ever. this means that in the social background the rules have yet to be established, the presupposed boundaries and entry points are not agreed upon, leaving us in a liminal stage. it appears to me that once these things are more hashed out the debates about the 'reality' of the nature of online relationships will fade.
Your friend is an idiot, and he has deliberately harassed people during an online event. Thats what it means. It doesnt matter whether it is allowed by that game's rules or not - it is an uncivil act. If you need an analogy, there are still countries/cultures in the world that allows you go eye for en eye -> you can legally kill someone who accidentally dropped a brick on one of your close relative's head killing him/her.
Story tells me that your friend was a socially disturbed wannabee. Which, i can empathize much, actually, for i was one of the socially disturbed wannabees who sought out wannabees like your friend and whacked them with great pleasure.
Read radical news here
I learned on /., i love you guys :')
Tokyo Robot Lords! Smile! Taste Kittens!
I have had many meaningful conversations with my best online buddy Elisa. She wont agree to meet in the real world though.
I know multiple couples who are now married, 2 of which have children, who met online in a band's message forum (Eisley's Laughing City) so it can work. I've dated a couple girls through the forum but i don't have the personality for long distance relationships. With one I was very much in love but the distance just erodes things away.
I always shake my head when i hear respected professionals denounce online relationships as fake. It just goes to show they have no understanding of the online culture.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
I think trying to sniff someone as a greeting could be grounds for a restraining order
A goal is a dream with a deadline
We met back in 2001 on what now is FreeNode's #php channel. This past summer, we finally tied the knot. I ended up moving up to be with here (I was living in Pennsylvania at the time. She was living in Montreal). We are happily married, and have been a happy couple ever since we first started being a couple. Both of us are absolutely thrilled at the way we met. I've also developed a rather one-sided opinion that programming chat rooms are great places to pick up chicks. =)
Jason Lotito
This month, a friend of mine I have known for over a decade flew accross the country to meet me in person for the first time. We had been friends since we worked on a failed project to produce an Open Source Mega Man video game that got to a certain point then failed. We stayed IRC friends for for 11 years, and he came to visit me for 6 days in August. This isn't to say I don't have friends in the real world that come visit me too, I do. but I had always known who he was, and he and I were really friends.
Now. Relationships are another matter. Relationships need an element of physical proximity. They fall apart anyway. I wouldn't feel comfortable in an online relationship. Long distance relationships generally don't work out even when its telephone conversations.
I wonder what the actual percentage of 'relationships' online have turned out where one of them was being clearly deceitful, i.e. a male pretending to be female. It's probably really really low, yet people have this unreal anxiety that they can't trust someone simply because they haven't met them face to face.
Sure, caution is needed, but many people are finding love online, and if it works for them, can't we be happy for them? It's hard to meet people in today's society. It's not like we have town dances or whatever the devil they did 100 years ago. (yes, i'm sure some town's have dances still). And really, in the 19th and early 20th century many relationships developed via letters. My grandmother used to send daily 'what's up' postcards to people in the next town before phones, and when phones came along I'm sure many people new each other first only through that medium. So I don't think this is a new phenomenon. If you make the assumption that the other person is honest and fall in love with them, and that assumption is correct, you win. If it somehow isn't, well, there are 50 ways to leave your lover.
Based off what I've seen, we could all use more lovin, online or otherwise. Won't get it as easy by pigeonholing your possible relationships avenues.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
isn't it about swordplay and magic and killing things? it's called escapism: a place for people to go and do things they can't do in real life. therefore, you can't hold the standards of behavior of reality against it
so the guy made a bloody raiding party on a wedding. in reality, that's front page horrible news. in everquest, it seems to me to be par for the course
why do you expect any different, why do you think you ever could expect any different? everquest: people have swords and spells. they hurt things. that's the whole damn point of it to begin with: pointless violent escapism. and that's not bad: it's a harmless outlet
i don't think you are deluded. i don't think you are taking something too seriously. i just don't think you understand the rules here
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
How can a comment that restorts to name-calling like this be modded up and not listed as a Troll?
Not to mention your analagy is completely irrelevant. We're talking about a game where the point of it is to go around and kill things. So what are you saying, that the people should go after the wedding slasher and cast a spell on him? Well guess what? It's a game! It's perfectly "legal" for them to do that if they want...
Or are you even suggesting that they are justified to go to the guy's "real world" house and cause him physical harm? If so, that makes you the "socially disturbed wannabee", my friend...
Online Gaming has been proving this for years. I've been playing computer games on the Internet since I was a young teenager, and have been to countless LAN parties with people that I had met playing on Quake 2 servers. The gaming culture opens us up to new friendships, especially for us introverted computer geek types. It allows us to project ourselves on other people without fear of ridicule for physical appearances or other quirks that we may or may not have. Many gamers feel more comfortable associating with people in this manner. Last summer I traveled to London and met with people I play Eve Online with. It was a great experience, and is exactly why I play games online; to meet new and interesting people regardless of race and culture.
linky
I met my wife on soc.penpals 14 years ago. She was living in South Africa at the time while I was living in the US. We have been married now for 10 1/2 years. Yesterday, when she was pissed at me for tracking mud into the house, I'd hardly say our relationship was a "fantasy".
Another example of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory in action.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
My business: Farstrider Studios.
Remember the whole concept of pen pals, and the love that can sometimes come from it? Online is no different; It's completely anonymous, so you're each depending on each other to at least tell the truth in some regard, and it completely bypasses the physical realm, which I'm sure many people find an interesting concept. The only real difference comes in that it's a lot more instantaneous, that it's much more interactive at times. While I'm sure games are possible with a pen pal, you can't hook up and blow each other to bits in Halo, for example, as though they were in the room with you, and you can't dive into the soul-sucking quagmire of WoW through pen and paper, either.
Screw the rules, I have green hair!
...that makes you wish /. had "+1 OMG Say it's not so" moderation points.
throw new NoSignatureException();
The idea that relationships online aren't real is, as said multiple times above, is absurd. A relationship regardless of where it forms and in what form it takes is real. You can compare online relationships with relationships you develop at work. You encounter those people only at work and have varying degrees of intensity in the relationship between simply saying hi to each other out of a sense of "we both work here" to inviting a dude over to your cookout. Most work-born relationships stay at work. Online relationships are very, very similar. Most can be quite small in flavor and don't mean much, but like any place where you interact with people, they can develop into greater things. I have a lot of online relationships that don't mean much to me and that truly exist only online. And by the word relationships I'm talking about interaction varying between acquaintances and life partners. You can break it down into stimuli > response and get into arguments over "what really constitutes reality?" The main thought seems to be that if you meet face to face, you're meeting for real when in fact a chatroom is really interaction between multiple people. So why do I have to see their face in order to say I know them? I can say I know several without having met them or seen a picture (or having had hard evidence they are who they claim to be). But to counter that same statement, I don't think I would be as good a friend with my best friend (the one I met online) if I hadn't met them face to face. Meeting someone irl does have an impact, I believe, due to the intensity of information you gain about someone by seeing them. You immediately know their gender, relative age and appearance and can then tell things about their personality by their movements, the way they speak and form their words talking to you without the advantages or disadvantages of typing (the latter you can get from a phone call as well...). In an online relationship you can control what information gets to the other person, and it's harder for them to read nuances and subconsciously judge you. But none of this means that a relationship between you and another human being is any less "real" if its is online. Insert some more stuff that sounds soapbox-esque.
That's what I tell myself when I catch two elves in the basement of Goldshire Inn behind the Kegs, coming out smoking long bottom leaf with a creepy smiles on their blushed faces.
EVERYTHING OKAY. Proceed with life
``Relationships are real wherever they form.''
That sounds like it wasn't what you expected. Apparently,
people have some idea that relationships should only
developed through normal means, for some definition of normal.
And there, I said the magic word: definition. What is the
definition of relationship? When is a relationship real? What
means are normal?
My feeling is that this is going to be similar to the question
whether machines can think. Some people define thinking in a way
that machines can't possibly satisfy (usually, the argument is
exactly "if a machine does it, it's not thinking"). Other people
use definitions where thinking machines are always just around
the corner, but never actually there. And some people use
definitions by which we've had thinking machines for a long
time now.
As for relationships, I think that, no matter what your definition
of a relationship is, the (real) feelings you get from interacting
in a virtual world are about the same as those you would get if
the interaction had happened in the Real World. For me, that makes
the relationship real.
Of course, some aspects of relationships that develop in the Real World
will be missing from relationships that develop in some virtual
reality. On the other hand, there may be things in virtual reality
relationships that aren't in Real World relationships. There are
some very interesting effects here. For example, there are great
opportunities for misrepresenting and hiding things...in both virtual
and Real relationships.
Virtual reality being virtual, it also provides great opportunities for
experimentation. Some people never get past the "let's offend people
and see what happens" stage, but other people go much, much further.
Some people get married and/or have children in virtual reality, and
I think that this gives them some insight in what it
would feel like if they did the same thing in Real Life. To me, this
seems a valuable experience. And I'd much rather this experiment be
run in virtual reality with virtual children than in Real Life with
Real children.
All this is my 2 cents, of course, but those cents have been given to
me as the result of having both Real World and virtual reality
relationships, and even some that were both.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
You can't pick up and carry a player in Everquest.
Also, a paralyze works for like 5 seconds or some such.
"Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory" espoused by Penny Arcade some years ago.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
I met this rather nice person in MSN chat back in 2000. We were married in 2002 and things have been going great. A few friends of mine didn't do so well with their online relationships.
I had been getting computer advise from someone who I thought was a fat, balding, middle-aged dude working from his moms basement, wearing a Yoda t-shirt and eating hot pockets. It turns out this person was really a ho, horny supermodel who was cruising the internet to find victims to satisfy her lusts and to spend her millions of dollars. You never get over that kind of betrayal
Worst. Sig. Ever.
Whether you're hooked on Day of Defeat or the latest XBox Live game, the real-life consequences are negligible (unless you forget to eat or something). Traditionally (if one can use such a word about the online media) games are relatively simple affairs. Do something, get a reward. Whee. Big deal.
However, during the last decade or so, games have developed an entirely new facet: social structure. Be it World of Warcraft or Second Life (is that even a game? I can't decide), people are getting deeply involved not only with the game itself but with each other, albeit in a virtual world. One might even say that actually playing the game is less important than being socially active in its context.
When social interactions become a part of the picture, changes occur in the balance between gaming and living. There separation between the game world and the real world begins to blur and fade as players make connections between game-world and real-world values. We have already seen people defining their real-life life by their in-game personas, businesses, and achievements. And this may be a problem. Maybe it's not very apparent now, but this kind of game is a relatively new phenomenon.
If a person forms a relationship in Second Life (for instance), there are bound to be more than virtual feelings involved. This is fundamentally different from being, say, a GTA addict. In GTA, one can be a car-stealin', cop-beatin' badass, and still be a loving family member (assuming that person can tell one world from the other).
A player's character would not start a virtual relationship with another player's ditto unless there is some emotional bond between the players themselves. One would have to be particularly schizophrenic (that's a joke) or an unnaturally good role player to claim that there is no conflict of interest between having a real-life relationship with one person and having an online romance with another. It would take a very well-spoken husband to convince his wife that he is happily married.
More and more, your online persona is a reflection and augmentation of your actual self. And yes, this is the case even if your online persona is Batman or GothGirl -- however radically different from your physical appearance, it's still a form of self-realization. Unless you're seriously schizophrenic (again with the humour...).
The old mantra that "on the Internet, nobody know you're a dog" is being obsoleted. Perhaps it should be replaced by "if you die in the game, you die for real" (what movie is that from again?). My point is that as games become ever more social, they're not just games anymore. Online romances equal emotional unfaithfulness and should be taken seriously.
"Good news, everyone!"
They've been married for almost 10 years now, and are doing just fine.
If it works - it works - nothing wrong with it. Lord knows it's better than going to Yente the Matchmaker...
Hodel, oh Hodel,
Have I made a match for you!
He's handsome, he's young!
Alright, he's 62.
But he's a nice man, a good catch, true?
True.
I promise you'll be happy,
And even if you're not,
There's more to life than that---
Don't ask me what.
Chava, I found him.
Won't you be a lucky bride!
He's handsome, he's tall,
That is from side to side.
But he's a nice man, a good catch, right?
Right.
You heard he has a temper.
He'll beat you every night,
But only when he's sober,
So you're alright.
Did you think you'd get a prince?
Well I do the best I can.
With no dowry, no money, no family background
Be glad you got a man!
Brrrrr. Between Yente, and the millions of Arranged Marriages that go down Every Single Year to this present day, and the resulting resentment and far-too-common acts of violence, I think if people can find love in this hypersexualised culture it doesn't really matter what medium it takes to make that connection.
One of my very best friends met his wife through an advertisement in one of those cheezy urban free weekly newspaper. (SWM seeks SF, etc.) 14 years later - they're still fine and loving, with two adorable kids.
So it doesn't matter: SWM ISO SWF, OKCUPID.COM, or alt.tasteless - love is good where-ever you find it - as long as it is true.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Virtual relationships can make you suffer for real.
:(){
I've been around technology long enough to see some of the ups and downs of online relationships. I've met people online, both male and female, with whom I've developed good bonds of friendships. I've never 'e-dated' anyone, but I've seen plenty of people do it.
I've played World of Warcraft for the last year and a half or so and when that many people come together it's only natural that some of them develop relationships. Sometimes these things turn out really good and the people actually start seeing each other in real life if they're physically close enough to do so. I don't know if it's happened on the server I've played on, but I have heard of people getting married after meeting in an online game after e-dating for a while and eventually getting to know each other better in real life.
Of course there are also the horror stories of online dating as well. I've seen relationships that haven't worked out and it makes some people bitter. There have been people kicked from guilds or guilds that have been broken up over the drama caused by some online relationships. The worst (and perhaps the funniest) thing I've ever seen is when two people who were e-dating on our server broke up and the girl posted some pictures of the guy posing naked in front of a webcam for her. The thread managed to last overnight before the GM's removed it, but a substantial portion of the server got to see a guy grabbing his junk and trying to strike a sexy pose.
One of my friends had a younger brother who met someone online and recently moved to live with them on the east coast after visiting and having a good time. I think there are a lot of people who scoff the idea of online relationships, but with the technology we have in the world today, I think they can be a good thing. Of course when the people in them don't act intelligently they can turn out bad and people you know see you wearing nothing but a smile on the internet.
Nobody could possibly let computer fantasy worlds dictate real life behavior. Take me for example. Never once have I let imaginary things like work, school, or social life influence my behavior in a PvP match. You just have to keep things in perspective.
Eight years ago I separated from my (then) wife - a marriage that soon lead to the following:
ME: What happened to you saying you would do 'this', and be 'this' way and do 'these' things... HER: I told you exactly what you wanted to hear me say for you to marry me.
I couldn't believe it. The hell with it, I served divorce papers and within the next 30 days I decided to (for the first time) try an online dating service.
Within a week I met "Beth" on a now defunct site called kiss.com [now powered by udate.com] - They received a lot of negative press due to their options for married people seeking secretive meetings (encouraging cheating) - within a year they closed
Anyway, as I said I met "Beth", we had talked briefly at first until I myself had uploaded a photo of myself. After I uploaded my own photo, giving proof to my personal description, our conversations increased. Within a few days we started talking on the phone. Within two weeks we had met for the first time.
First date: Aug 16 2001 She had four kids, I had two Nov 1st (3 months later) she moved 150 miles and moved in with me July 22, 2003 we got married
The key points to this story?
"Beth" is an absolute fantasy - I couldn't image meeting someone like this in real life, nor have I even come close.
To-date, we had never fought, argued, yelled, or had any negativity by any means. I'm now 36, and she is now 41. And our online relationships, even though short lived prior to becoming an RL relationship enabled us to speak our minds completely. I consider myself old school w/ a modern kink. Old school in that I believe the man is the MAN of the house. I am not the only word, but I AM the final word. I should be the bread winner, the person to support the entire family, I handle home finances, disciplining the kids. And I could tell her these things without repercussion - the most she could do is log of and not respond.
But what happened was amazing. Her responses were "I don't want to be in charge anymore" (single mother, etc..).
The 'kink' part in me was matched perfectly by her. Maybe it's just the nerd in me that brings the freak out in me... though she's matched it. And fully! She satisfies all desires I have - completely - from normal stuff to bringing a girlfriend home now and then to 'join' in.
It gets better -
She an information magnet, she truly interested in anything I have to explain to her in regards to the Net, UNIX, SEO/SEM, and gaming. She actively plays EQ (lvl 68 SK & 60 CLR), LastChaos, she even started her own blog to help others have the type of a happy relationship like we have.
Online relationships ARE absolute reality, though only if you want them to be, or allow them to become a reality.
I've been on the Internet since I was 13 - that was 23 years ago. And at 13 I met my first online girlfriend on a local BBS, who lived near me and became a true RL relationship. There is no difference between online and off line relationship as long as both parties realize this. It is the same issue if two people in RL are dating and one believes they are dating exclusively and the other believes it is more of an open relationship - the same issues will arise. I believe relationships that start online are far more superior to those that start off line because the online relationship allows people to layout everything on the table - I am 'this' way.. I like 'this'... I don't like 'this', and I 'need this' from my SO.
People focus on the online "Thomas Montgomery's" who shoot people in unjustifiable rages, when these things happen just as much, and more, in the off line scenarios. The internet is not to blame in that situation - the guy was messed up in the head. It reminds me of a cheating spouse where people blame the bar, or a certain p
Never try to beat a professional at his own game!
Sure, people can have relationships online. The interwebs should be used to supplement traditional communication, though, not *replace* it.
There is an oft-cited study that was done at UCLA (1971, Albert Mehrabian) that determined that 93% of communication is NON-VERBAL, meaning vocal queues(38%) and visual queues(55%). Even on voice chat you're only getting half the story. It's easy to see internet communication is a whole lot more suceptable to a misunderstanding (whether intentional or not).
Your feelings are always real, you just have to make sure they are based on accurate information, then you'll be fine - irregardless of communication medium.
FUNK!
Simply put, adulterous behavior is not limited to pure physical action, but is having online relationships, wandering eyes, or even lustful thoughts for people to whom you are not married. It is not a matter of what the body is doing, but the intents of the heart.
--Chag
...for us basement dwellers...
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
I did online dating a bit. From social sites and what not. The hot blond 19 year old that spoke to me online turned out to be a hot blond 19 year old in real life. If you know what your doing it's easy to avoid the creepy people. Generally I've found the less you talk online before meeting in real life the better, and don't fib about what you do and who you are. Be wary of close cropped or heavily distorted pictures.
Also, all the signs of a psycho GF you know from dating from bars is the same online. Clinginess, professing they're losers, overly emotional, etc... are all signs that when it ends it will end badly.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
The question that arises is: do people who seek online relationships simply turn their backs on life? What else is it, if not social suicide?
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Going to the right place, looking the right direction, dressing the right way, using the right perfume, having the right car, saying the right word, asking the right question. There are so many things that are barriers for the first contact and get irrelevant along the relationship. Some times I wonder how many lonely people out there might have missed the chance to meet someone that was also lonely (and willing to get together) simply because they both didn't have the right tools. The likelihood of that happening just amazes me.
This is writing by a columnist, not a study or any kind of rigorous analysis. It is written by someone whose job is to celebrate and market sexual neurosis as a way of spicing up Wired's otherwise geek-heavy material. It is not science. It doesn't even pretend.
This reminder brought to you by the people out there who haven't yet succumbed to iPhone-style hype religion about the internet, technology or humanity.
Thank you for reading. You will now be returned to your regular neurotic programming.
technical writing / development
On-line relationships worked for me! I met my current lady through Love@Lycos - we've been together for 4 years and we're getting married in November!
My web domain.
I, for lack of better wording, dated my wife for 3 years via instant messaging. I never physically saw her for the first 3 years we knew each other. I took a lot of crap from a lot of people. We met after 3 years and got married a month after that. We've now been married for just over a year and just had a child. Just because you haven't "seen" a person doesn't make it "fantasy". I know quite a few other people just like me who met their spouse online. Most don't go 3 years before meeting though ;)
I thought I would share my little story of "online relationships". I have a profile up at a site that caters to a gay demographic, and on there I've got about like 12-13 pictures and a little blurb.
Anyway, so one day I get a message on there which read something like: "Why are you using a dead guy's pictures?". This puzzled me so I replied that in fact I'm using my own pictures. His reply to that "No, the pictures you are using are of a guy named such-and-such and he lives in [a town like 26 states over] and he recently passed away and you suck for using his pictures".
Anyway, I won't go into details here, but I offered to prove to him that I was the person in the pictures, not because I felt like any particular need to prove it, but because I felt like he needed some closure. And so we did (webcam does the trick nicely).
Anyway, then the story came out - he'd been talking to someone on craigslist of all places who posted an ad with my pictures. They got into it quite heavily (though obviously they never met), talking every day and such. Finally, when this other guy got bored of the game he invented a cyber-death and had his "sister" email the original guy to tell him that her brother is dead.
Long story short, it was interesting to examine this situation. The poor man, he seemed totally crushed. He even told me at the end that he could never really get to know me as a person, since he's tied my pictures to whatever personality the liar invented. For my part, I also felt very bad - I'd almost say guilty - even though I did nothing wrong. And I really pitied the guy - his emotions were wracked in a very real way, even though the entire thing occurred online, and even though, let's face it, he should have known better.
mainly because i know i couldn't get away that kind of behavior in the real world. my personality online and off are night and day. here i am loud angry and rude. in real life i am quite pleasant. for me, the internet represents catharsis: a mental taking out the trash that leaves me capable of not blowing my stack in the real world
in other words, my personality here is not only completely unlike my personality in real life, my personality here allows me to be someone else in real life. and i completely understand the boundaries
in other words, your understanding of human psychology is simplistic and incomplete. people's "true personality" is not revealed on the web, it merely is another side to their persona, and how it intereacts with their real life persona can assume many different shapes
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I think meeting people online is a great way to meet new and interesting people, with the added fact that you *generally* get an idea about a person from their profile or what they say without the hassle of shouting into their ear in a bar or the discomfort of a first date. I went onto a couple of sites when I first moved to Vancouver, in addition to meeting people in day-to-day situations, online helped me meet quite a few new and interesting people that I wouldn't have met in a strange city. Indeed I first started chatting to a girl a 2 years ago and we kept in touch via the site and msn for several months before going on a first date - we've just got married and she's 5 months pregnant (wahoo).
Obviously there's dangers to meeting people and forming relationships online, but there's similar dangers to meeting someone in a store or in a bar - the advantage that online provides is you can figure out generally if the person is genuine, their likes and dislikes and it *can* save several dates and then realizing you like different things.
If it worked for me.. it can work for anyone else.. but just like everyday life, you have to keep your wits about you.
If you're just hanging out with friends and chatting, it doesn't really matter what combination of people you have in real life or in a game. When trying to accomplish something, however, you have to deal with the jerks who are excellent salesmen or the lead engineer who's a sociopath, just because they have the needed skill or are part of a needed class. Meanwhile, the superfluous classes are marginalized in the business world as well, and are typically paid less. You other examples are also all reminiscent of real life: Trying to schedule meetings with a bunch of busy people is exceedingly tricky, especially if it's last minute. Playing 5 vs. 5 basketball without your center is laughable, and you're probably not going to have much fun when your team is defeated effortlessly. Danielle is a busy and popular girl, and she may only have time for you once a week or so.
What you should be complaining about is not that the game differs from real life, if anything, it's too much like real life at the office.
You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
Mine turned out to be Chris Hansen and he told me to "have a seat over there..." :(
After a couple months of regular phone calls, eventually reaching several hours a day, I rather impulsively blurted out that I was attracted to her. A few days later she said she was attracted to me too.
I offered to send her a plane ticket to come visit. At the time she lived in Nova Scotia, Canada and I lived in California. However, wiser heads prevailed: her friends all recommended to her that I visit her first, so they all could check me out and make sure I wasn't an ax murder.
I guess I checked out OK, and several visits to each others' homes - and to each others' parents - followed.
This was before Voice Over IP worked very well; I'm afraid Speak Freely didn't work for us, so I paid some astounding phone bills.
She came to live with me in California, able to work in the States because the biotech job she found qualified her for a TN-1 visa.
We moved back to eastern Canada for our wedding, which took place on July 22nd, 2000.
We've been married for seven years now.
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I've been married for two years to a woman I met online (she was my fantasy, and still is). She emailed me as a stranger in 2003 to ask for help with a document on my website, and we became pen pals (platonic - there were 10,000 miles between us and we never expected to meet). After I went to another part of Asia, she offered to show me around her country...I stayed for six months, and we're back in the USA now.
However, I think there is still some stigma associated with meeting someone online. I am reluctant to tell people we met online without clarifying how.
www.cgstock.com
We're all familiar with the jokes about your online sweetheart turning out the be some old guy or teenage nerd, etc. etc.. And we laugh at the "horror" of discovering that your image is false. But surely there must be some stories where these odd couples in real life become friends/lovers despite that, and not just the ones involving people getting arrested for statutory rape. For reference, I'm thinking more along the lines of the relationship between Tsukasa and Subaru in the anime series .hack//Sign. That series is somewhat vague about what happens after they meet in real life, but clearly they did not recoil in horror at the discovery that they were both women, one confined to a wheelchair no less.
If indeed online relationships are real, then it is highly likely that eventually they are going to profoundly change the nature of real life relationships and what are and are not acceptable pairings. Indeed, the pair could conceivably cease to be the base unit.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
I had a really close friend I made on Ultima online. He was pretty cool, I talked to him on IRC all the time, we quested together . . . but then he showed up in game with a bugged +100HP helmet, so I killed him and took it. Then I put on all his gear and killed him again when he resurrected. Needless to say, our 'relationship' ended. I dont think I would have done that to a real friend... hmm...
crap.
I was on the forums for Lonelygirl15. I met a girl there and we started talking. A couple of months later she moved across the country to move in with me. We're now engaged. I have to say though, on a lot of internet forums and chat rooms, you have nothing to distract you. It's ALL about conversation. I probably knew more about her when she came than I did ANY girlfriend I met the traditional way.
so online games are designed around decidedly uncivil acts, after all
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I too met my wife online, and get funny looks when telling people so.
We met almost 12 years ago at a place called Shadow BBS, hosted at the Illinois Institue of Technology, it's all but gone now (I think it's still running, but always empty) but in the heyday of telnet BBSs it had a 55 user limit and commonly a 40 person queue. She's not the first woman I met online, so I can attest to the numerous posters above being accurate in the 'crap shoot' type description they're offering.
In our case however, we've been together for nearly 11 years, married for soon-to-be 8 years. Needless to say it worked out. Through all my relationships, online and offline, I've realized one piece of advice that seems to be accurate, and I'll give it to you now.
Relationships (regardless of online/offline status) work in the long term if and ONLY if:
A) it is a marriage of convenience for both parties, and that is -understood- by both parties, or
B) the people involved are (or at least CAN be) best friends.
Option B above is where it's at for people actually seeking a real relationship. Too often I hear people spouting bullshit like 'we're too good of friends' or 'I don't want to spoil the friendship'. Really now, people ACTUALLY think that spending a significant portion (likely the greatest portion) of your life with someone who turns you on but pisses you off is superior somehow to living and getting sexual gratification from your best friend. Foolish.
My wife and I have a marriage in which the longest fights take about 6 hours, and we only have one of those every couple of years. The ability to look at someone and know that you truly LIKE THEM is such a problem solver. It facilitates forgiveness and compromise. The vast majority of that friendship groundwork was laid out in our time talking to each other online. I know I liked this person, I knew we had a similar sense of humor, and I knew she was the kind of person I admire.
Okay, so saying 'I KNEW' is strong there, but once you meet someone it (in my experience) doesn't take very long at all to figure out if someone was misrepresenting themselves, and by how much. She was the real deal. Once I SAW her, the physical attraction (which was already rather strong, she was shaped in a way I particularly enjoy) was boosted significantly by the knowledge of just how COOL this person was (from my POV, of course).
Here's my rant in summary:
Real Life and On Line relationships are different, yes, but they cover a lot of common ground, and can certainly have real and lasting effects on each other.
One more (very condensed) example: Back in the dial-up BBS days there were some kids at my school that I never really liked, some of who I had never really met (2700 student high school), but we ran into each other on the boards. Some of those relationships grew into honest and strong friendships, some of them grew into bitter contempt, but most of them had consequences that spanned the RL/OL divide.
Remember kiddies: A big chunk of what is 'you' is an in-training neural-net. Any input who's signal is strong enough to evoke a non-rote response is also re-writing your personality as it does so. Just because what you're experiencing is symbolically represented doesn't mean it's not being experienced.
Your "wife" is actually a computer. And that... that's the modem, so stop doing that.
I am reminded of what the skin horse in the Velveteen Rabbit had to say on the matter: "It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real."
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
the parent i mean, basically i was trying to sum up to that.
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We've met a few other Bonitas. Surprisingly, although it means "pretty" in Spanish, none of them were hispanic. She was told on a visit to Spain that no one there would give their daughter that name.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
it's as if you are trying to tell me there was no violence before videogames, or less violence
hardly!
actually, with the rise of videogames in the western world, violent crimes have gone down
catharsis is a concept you should familiarize yourself with: allowing you to express asocial aspects of your personality harmlessly. aspects that were always there, but would otherwise get represented in the real world
in other words, violent videogames decrease real world violence by providing a harmless outlet for that which otherwise would have nowhere to be expressed (and so gets expressed inappropriately)
it depends upon how you view human nature: are we born pure innocent spirits that are corrupted by society? or are we born violent seething cauldrons of violence that are tamed by society?
you go spend 5 minutes with a roomful of 3 year old toddlers and get back to me on that point
i rest my case
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
That's +1 Informative
paintball
then why are people given weapons?
what you are talking about is second life: now that's nonviolent. but you are wrong about ultima online, everquest, wow, etc.: if you go into those games, and expect to be involved in any sort of interaction that might not turn violent, a game whose stated purpose is violent interaction and where your first task is to level up by killing things with a weapon in your hand, then what is there to say about you and your inability to understand the most fundamental concepts of this subject matter?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Met on ISCA BBS. We've been living together for 9yrs. Talk about marriage a lot but never been a priority :)
I met my wife on a BBS in 1991 while we were both in high school... 15 years later, we're the only ones we still know, because nobody else stays married (or even friends) with anyone for that long. (A slight exaggeration, but I seriously only still know 2 people I knew when I met her.) Originally we were 18/15 now we are 33/31 (she is 2 yrs, 1 month younger). So... there are many counterexamples to the grandparent poster.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Cop turns out to be your girlfriend!
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
WTF kind of question is this? I don't know... Is my love for the robot butler who changes monkey diapers aboard the SS Assmaster real? WTF is real anyway? I think if you're even vaguely sentient this is an absurd question.
BTW if you fap to it - it's real!
I used to chat online with someone named ELIZA. She was always very attentive to everything I said. She wanted to know everything about me and my parents. You can't tell me that wasn't real!
go read what the romans used to do to their enemies
i was just reading about how tokugawa had a robber and his whole family, including his small son, boiled alive in oil, for the crime of robbery, done just by the robber by himself. you honestly think any mindless teenage shenanigans in a MMORPG can compare to that?
man's violence against man, and imagination around it, knows no bounds, and was a lot more brutal in reality the further you go back in history
the best civilization can do, the best civilization has done, is provide a way to harmlessly express this aspect of human nature. civilization doesn't make innocent people violent. civilization takes inherently violent human nature and channels those energies into social/ contructive and asocial/taboo paths
to that end, violent videogames are a potent new weapon AGAINST real world violence
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
human beings:
born peace loving innocent vessel of purity, that society corrupts into violence?
or born shit slinging seething cauldrons of violent demons, that society civilizes and molds into appropriate modes of behavior?
now, go look at a roomful of 3 year olds, and get back to me and tell me again that violence in human history is just about a few random isolated events
ha!
humanity is constantly violent and vicious, throughout all history, right now, and for all time going forward, in all cultures
it's not out and out mad max, because people are trained by their societies what is right and wrong. but it is a thin veneer on a big ugly ape, and takes very little to expose the 3 year old toddler again, always there, a part of me, a part of you
you just don't understand human nature
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
not real, but relationships in their own way.
The level of abstraction is choice of the user:
from text,to webcams, to virtual reality(not yet here).
at some point it will be more feature-filled and engaging then real-life relationships.
but you just admitted it yourself: the game is intended for violent escapist fantasy, and some people are using it for other random purposes
but the whole point is, the top level comment was about a wedding, and how it is shocking it was ruined by a violent interlude
no: the violent interlude is the normal mode for the game, and should be what people expect about it, and the wedding, just as you admit right now, is a weird bizarre purpose having nothing to do with the intent of the game
so why do some people express shock and outrage that they go on an MMORPG and see senseless violence
it's the whole dman point!
anyone who is NOT engaging in senseless violence are the aberrant weirdoes who don't get the whole point, who don't get the intent, just as you just admitted, and have no expectation of anything they do there except kill or be killed
if you are on ultima/ wow/ everquest, and you are doing something besides killing or being killed, you are straying form the purpose of the game, and should have no expectation of anything except kill or be killed, because that's the whole INTENT
just as YOU just said
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
They existed solely in your head. Most people can also find someone who has a relationship with them in their head.
There is no two way communication. There is your feeling towards someone else, it does not mean they have the same relationship with you.
Fortunately, when the fantasy is smashed, most people can get up and go on..but some keep living their fantasy until they believe it is true.
The problem with online relationships, is that people bond(i.e. have mutualy ralationship fantasy) without key data. Looks, mannerisms, daily behaviour off line.
All of which is important, for very real reasons.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'm a huge internet troll, mainly because i know i couldn't get away that kind of behavior in the real world. my personality online and off are night and day. here i am loud angry and rude. in real life i am quite pleasant. for me, the internet represents catharsis: a mental taking out the trash that leaves me capable of not blowing my stack in the real world
in other words, my personality here is not only completely unlike my personality in real life, my personality here allows me to be someone else in real life. and i completely understand the boundaries
This attitude is precisely the reason I despise internet trolls. Not because of the whole signal-to-noise ratio thing; newbies posting stupid questions and other minor breaches of nettiquette accomplish roughly the same thing and I don't mind them at all. No, the reason I hate trolls is because they treat the internet like some kind of damned videogame and other people on it like NPCs at worst, other players to be "beaten" in the "game" at best. But despite the fact that you're accessing the internet through a keyboard and screen, it's not a damn game. And I don't mean that the internet should be a serious, demure place of pure business and scholarship either; I'm here to have fun more often than I'm here to do work. I just mean that the internet is less like baseball and more like a game of catch, less like the debate team and more like chatting in the living room with your friends. It's not a competition, you can't win at it, and so playing manipulative social games trying to get certain reactions out of certain people for fun (or "catharsis" as you say) is just as despicable as if you were to treat IRL conversations with your friends that way. (Granted, some people do the same thing in real life, and I'd consider them assholes too).
Do you assume a different persona and play social games when you converse over the phone? How about through postal mail, on the off chance that you actually write letters to people? Why is the internet any different? It's just another means of communication - one which, due to its breadth and efficiency, is if anything MORE like real life than the phone or mail.
The same thing applies to people who are dicks in the non-game aspects of online games, e.g. game chat. Yes, if you're playing a competitive game the objective is to blow up the other guy or what have you, and you shouldn't complain that people are being "mean" when they do so efficiently. At the same time, there's this little thing called good sportsmanship which has been pretty well established in real world competitive activities, and I see no reason why it applies any less online. So, just because someone is competing against you in something that actually IS a game on the internet, doesn't mean that when you communicate with them within the context of the game (but "out of character", if such a concept is relevant) you're free to be a dick, anymore than it's OK to shout demeaning insults at the other team in a real-world sport, or to gloat over your victory or throw a tantrum over your loss.
On the other hand, there is something to be said for people behaving differently in person and online. Someone may be more or less comfortable in one venue than in the other, and so censor certain parts of themselves where they're not comfortable expressing such traits. But then, that just gets back to what the person you're responding to was saying; some people reveal their "true personality" more online than they do in real life. If you might be inclined to be an asshole in person but don't feel that that's OK, so instead you're an asshole on the internet (which honestly I've never seen you be, here on Slashdot at least), then that means that somewhere in your "true personality", you're an asshole, and you just censor that in real life and let it out on the internet so it doesn't stay bottled up. Even if the actual personas you're adopting online are all fake and consciously so, just put on for the response that other people give
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
not biological evolution
mentally and physically, we're the same guys who raped and pillaged, and were raped and pillaged, just a few scant hundred generations ago
in other words, social evolution is but a thin veneer on a big violent ape, and you give it far too much weight in your considerations about the real nature of human psychology
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Was she always a woman?
(Think Alexis Arquette)
that from the dawn of agriculture, 10,000 years ago, mankind has undergone dramatic biological evolution?
"with our current level of technology we would have returned to stone age, by nuking ourselves long ago"
heh, give it a few years. you think that happening is impossible?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
because of social evolution
including innovations such as the internet, where we can channel or basically unchanged violent impulses towards harmless release
which is what i said 5 posts above in this thread
you believe it's because of biological evolution?
(shakes head)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
about my theory that the internet will becom the mental cumbucket of our most stupid, violent, useless, and negative thoughts
;-)
ok
i guess we'll see won't we
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
where it=online negativity...
it serves as catharthis
ok, so it's rude. and? how does that hurt you? so people are rude on the internet. what's the big deal about that?
the erosion of your rights and freedoms under the government doesn't benefit society, and does hurt you. so you fight that
but rude trolls on the internet? i don't see the source of your concern
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I dunno. I've been married for 20-something years now, and she's a bit chubbier and I'm a bit balder, but I wouldn't say _no_ attraction. Brains and personality are attractive, too. There are a lot of physically pretty 20-year olds out there who look (and sound) too naive to be interesting/attractive.
Come to think of it, I've had my ears nibbled because of doing math, so I'm apparently not the only one who thinks that way.
I fell in love with a girl I met on EQ2.
We met nearly 3 years ago and for a while we just sorta hung out together as friends. Over the course of the past year, though, we started getting serious about being more than just buddies. We were spending every available waking moment talking to each other online.
Here's the twist though. I'm 26 and I thought she was 20. It turns out that she misrepresented her age by about 7 years. So in reality she is a 13 year old girl still in Jr. High. She told me the truth not long ago and backed it up with more than enough proof to show that she was now being honest with me. Shortly after that, about 2 weeks, her dad figured out why she was spending so much time online and revoked her online privileges.
So here I am trying to reconcile the thoughts in my head. I worry about how much damage I might have unknowingly done to her emotionally. But I also know that I enjoyed the time I spent talking with her and at present I miss her terribly. I was depressed to the point of not being able to function for the first couple weeks after her dad let her say goodbye. Currently I'm still depressed and lonely but I've at least recovered enough to put on a false face at work.
Now I'm trying to decide between waiting for her or trying to move on. Neither option is appealing. And yes I probably do need real therapy but you guys are way cheaper.
My God! It's full of eval()'s.
> You can indeed be intimate online. It can tell you a lot about the other person, sexually and
> emotionally.
>
> Don't dismiss what you haven't tried.
Very true. I knew some people who tried that and ended up happily married IRL.
Of course, I also knew a guy who flew to another country to be with his love, only to find out that "she" was a man. It... didn't work out. To be honest, I wonder how and why it ever got to that point? I mean, "she" HAD to know it wasn't going to end well.
I still wonder why "she" apparently actually met him. I'd have thought it better for both of them to be honest long before that meeting, but what do I know?
and has a jerky side they need to express
wo unto thee who says they have no such jerky side
they are then the biggest jerks of all: blind to one's own nature
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Well, I know of two marriages that are doing great, and that from internet relationships. One of them, my son, moved from USA to Riga Latvia, where his bride and wife practiced law. An MBA degree in the USA did not stop true love, or make it justifable for her to move to the USA. I know another couple, she from Arizona and he from Montreal Canada, who hitched up a few years back. Marriage is going well. They are on second honeymoon and enjoying themselves as a computer dating success. Writing emails and having online relationships brings out the best and worst of a person. If there is to be a romance, (this email is about romances), then the correspondence will make or break it. So, I am for more computer dating. Correspondence brings out the truth about feelings. I am for on-line healthy relationships.
what a lucky bastard i am
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