A Technology Report From A San Diego Fire Shelter

netbuzz writes "Retired journalist and mobility expert Jim Forbes is among the quarter-million San Diego-area residents driven out of their homes by the horrific wildfires. Forbes has taken the opportunity to 'fire blog' from his shelter and discuss via e-mail with Network World how his personal technology and the shelter's wireless networks are holding up under the strain. 'The shelter set up a dedicated computer room with an 802.11 a,b, and g network which worked like a charm. Lots of people brought notebooks when they left their home, so there was a whole lot of IM traffic in and out of the shelter. The local cell networks were subsumed by traffic early in the day so people were texting friends and loved ones a lot."

Comments

Fire Evacuees

[jcicora]

Well I say kudos to the people organizing the relief effort in San Diego. I think its great that they thought ahead to provide this kind of amenity to the people displaced by the ongoing disaster. This is the kind of project I would be glad to spend tax dollars on!

Re:Fire Evacuees

[chaos421]

I agree! What a great way to keep these folks connected with their friends and family. It makes perfect sense that people would grab a laptop (among other things) when leaving their home. My laptop is where I have all of my photos, music, etc. ...and what better way to stay connected to family than with video chat or IM. I say bravo bunker organizers.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

Is "people foolish enough to live and actively suppress fires in a fire prone area" a valid way of looking at the displaced people?

(To those who think I am just a giant asshole: As little fires are put out, the amount of fuel available grows. Eventually, when conditions are right(like right now), a fire develops that is too large to control. Then things get really bad. Putting out every single wild fire isn't necessarily good policy)

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying they should let a dozen or so houses burn down every year so that we never have headlines about big fires?

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

I'm saying maybe they shouldn't build the houses.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[phantomfive]

Yeap, you're just a giant asshole. Putting out every single wild fire isn't necessarily good policy, but neither is letting people's houses burn down.

The firefighters know about fire management, and that in places like Yosemite the forest gets too thick when you try to put out fires too frequently. The Southern California fires are different though....they are largely grass fires, with grass that has dried out during the long summer. In addition the warm Santa Anna winds heat things up and push the fires along. So letting the fires burn one year will have little effect on the fires of the next year.

We help those people out because we feel sorry for them. Basically, if you can look at someone's house that burned down, and expect them to just live in the street until they can find somewhere else to live, you have trouble empathizing with people and should get some help. Don't matter if it's their fault or not; I done enough stupid things in my life that I can forgive someone else for doing the same.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

I can empathize with the people's distress. Your arm-chair, over the internets, psychoanalysis is, however, appreciated.

Anyway, the OP said tax dollars. A better use of tax dollars(rather than making sure that shelters are nice(make the library a shelter and everybody's got a book, no need for wifi)) would be to buy up land where there is lots of grass that is prone to drying out and burning and preventing its development. That way, rather than giving idiots money for being stupid(or often, giving developers money for being willing to exploit people), you can have a nice park.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[mikael]

Unfortunately, land which is best for agriculture is also the best land for developing on. Land which dries out can suffer from subsidence, and land on a flood plain just gets flooded (which would otherwise damage crops). And probably land in a flood plain will also suffer from subsidence.

It's only going to take one change of ruling party, and a budget deficit, and some lobbying to persuade the government to sell off the land again.

Try telling that to the UK government which is proposing to build 2,000,000 homes in the flood plains of SE England, because they don't have anywhere else left. And they are even proposing that architects should design homes that are resistant to flood damage (ground level is the garage and stilts, first floor is the actual house).

Re:Fire Evacuees

[DustyShadow]

Does this explain the fact that Mexico does not put out fires like they do in SoCal yet their fires never burn out of control like they do in SoCal...??

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Gregb05]

At that point you'd have a nice wide open grass plot that can still catch fire.
Not to mention that burning material has been traveling several hundred yards before touching the ground and starting more fires, so if you wiped out all plant life on that land and paved it all over, things would probably catch fire on the other side.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[phantomfive]

Yeah, I kind of figured you weren't a psychopath. You gotta be careful how you present yourself online though: if you sound like an asshole, people will assume you are indeed an asshole. I'm not sure why you're so anti-wifi though; a wireless router only costs $30 or so, and they probably already have some sort of internet connection to whatever building they're using for the shelter.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

I'm not particularly opposed to wifi. I just don't think it is 'important' in such a situation. That's also how I happen to read the very first post in this thread; I'm pretty sure the poster was being ironic, and they got cheerled right up to an insightful 5. That screamed for some poking with a stick.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[CharlieG]

actually, it's more a side effect of the fact that the shelter operators need/want it to run the shelter! The has been a lot of work done on "how do we keep email up during disasters" - everything from broadband, to mesh networks, to satcoms, to sending email via ham radio (both on VHF packet networks and long distance HF links) - with the ham links, as soon as the traffic gets nto a radio outside the effected zone, the packets get routed onto the internet

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

Yeah, there isn't much space left. At least there are people willing to put the peak global population at ~12 Billion, I can't imagine what that will be like, let alone 20 or 40 billion.

If I manage to make one persons conviction about throwing money at disasters waver, I'm satisfied.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Nexx]

Let me start off by saying my parents' house was among that was a total loss in Witch Creek Fire.

Yes, you're being a giant asshole. These houses have not seen anything remotely approaching a forest fire of this scale in the 20+ years my family has been living in the area. This isn't some remote location, it's one of the largest suburbs of San Diego. It's not like there have been "little fires" that have been put out -- forestry services routinely let entire hillsides to burn when the cause of fire has been natural, with great disregard to property values.

If you look at the satellite photos of 92128 zip code, you'll see that the burned areas are not forests, but full-blown suburbs.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Kelson]

A better use of tax dollars(rather than making sure that shelters are nice(make the library a shelter and everybody's got a book, no need for wifi)) would be to buy up land where there is lots of grass that is prone to drying out and burning and preventing its development.

Doesn't help, unless you create a wide, non-flammable buffer zone of some sort. Otherwise, you end up with the situation we have in Orange County, where some whackjob started a fire out in the undeveloped hills, which proceeded to burn through the dry grass and brush in public land, regional parks, a chunk of land owned by the Nature Conservancy, and more undeveloped land... right up to the edges of nearby cities. Driven by wind, it raced through 3 miles of undeveloped land in the first 20 minutes, and firefighters just barely managed to stop it before it jumped a major road into a residential area.

The next morning, still driven by winds, it jumped right over a wide, multi-lane highway. Standard firebreaks aren't enough when you've got 70+ MPH winds that can send burning embers for several miles.

So unless you want to buy up and then pave over a 3-mile wide buffer zone, it's not going to help as much as you seem to think.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't speak too soon, FEMA and the feds are coming into today. That will sure force them to tear down that network since it's not sanction by AT&T and the FCC--no one's making any money! And with the federal turf wars it will take them 2 weeks and 1 million dollars to get a replacement network up and running.

And they'll send the National Guard back to patrolling our borders!

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, phantomfive. You have to realize that there's a whole cadre of folks here, Mr. Crystal Balls among them, who have concluded that whenever any peril or trouble overcomes people, it's their own fault. Under those rules, the victims of an accident or tragedy are to be gloated over and somehow pushed into the background. It's not easy to deal with people like this. You can probably safely conclude that they're young enough that no grief, sorrow, trouble, or disaster has ever come their way. You could probably also conclude that the rules of non-slashdot karma, God, the Universe, or simply the law of averages, will eventually catch up with them and that something dreadful will happen to them. It might be a job loss, illness, accident, fire, flood, earthquake or crime. Something like that happens to most people over the course of a lifetime. When it happens to the karmically-challenged, they'll be at more of a loss than the average person. I suspect that the words "empathy" and "forgive" and "feel sorry for" contained in your post mean that you've either lived a bit or that you're able to consider trouble and other experiences in abstract terms. You're to be commended.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Xanius]

I guess you don't have any family in the San Diego area that you can't find or get in touch with then? Or ever had family in a natural disaster like this?

I had family that we couldn't contact for over a week after Katrina hit, and I have grand parents that have been evacuated twice in SD and we don't know where they are. People being able to use a WiFi connection and get messages to worried family is one of the most important things in a situation like this.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[amRadioHed]

If I manage to make one persons conviction about throwing money at disasters waver, I'm satisfied. And maybe if you're lucky it will be the person who was going to help when disaster strikes your area.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Scruffy Dan]

While I can't comment specifically on San Diego's situation I know that up here in British Columbia, there have been fires that firefighters had no chance of stopping, yet millions were spent to 'make an effort' so the politicians could at least say they tried to protect homes.

A better strategy (in these specific fires) should have been to let the fires burn and either not waste the taxpayers money, or to give the money that would have been spent on fighting the fire to those whose homes burned down.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

If no people lived in Orange county, it wouldn't be a problem when it burned. We have different definitions of "fire prone area".

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

Well, all my grandparents are dead, and my father. This all happened before my 16th birthday. Decide for yourself if that is the truth or a lie, I'm not going to waste time defending it(even though it's the truth).

I just know that deep down, I don't care any more about the people on the news than about the people whose suffering I happily ignore everyday(along with half the planet).

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

Well, specifically, I said "just" being a giant asshole. I'm quite aware that I was being an asshole. Sometimes it's needed.

Anyway, when building a house, I have hopes and ambitions that the planning looks further out than 20 years, and these fires are going to happen a couple of times every 100 years or so.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

I didn't say we shouldn't help the people who were hit by this, I just think that the aphorism about a pinch or prevention being worth a pound of cure is worth keeping in mind when planning for the future.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[amRadioHed]

Prevention is important, you're right. But we are in the middle of a record drought and the Santa Anna winds were unbelievably strong. When the conditions are so perfect for fire there is really nothing reasonable that can be done to prevent it.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Kelson]

So basically, you're saying that if there's any likelihood of a natural disaster at all, no one should live in the area?

No one should live along the Gulf Coast, or the southern Atlantic seaboard, because they have hurricanes. Or California, because they have earthquakes. Especially not Southern California, because they have earthquakes and fires. Or the midwest, because they have blizzards. And tornadoes. And floods. Or Hawaii, because they have volcanoes. Pacific rim? Volcanoes and earthquakes. And tsunamis. South Asia? Floods.

Once you eliminate all the regions prone to disasters, what's left?

Re:Fire Evacuees

[PhoenixOne]

Living right in the heart of it, my first response would be f-you. But, instead, I will just feel sorry for you. Why? Because you're an idiot and while we have people lining up to help each other here in San Diego, I'm not sure anybody can help you.

I don't agree with our fire policy either. I've been vocal about it to my government. Guess what? The government didn't listen to me (big surprise). So why is it I, and thousands of other people, should be punished for our shitty government?

Re:Fire Evacuees

[PhoenixOne]

Oh, and FYI, these WiFi spots are being provided free-of-charge by local businesses and individuals. So none of your precious tax money is being diverted from a useless war to make sure displaced people can get updated information about where to run next.

(Sorry, I'm just slightly pissed at armchair experts right now.)

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Kyojin]

In Australia, where we get bush fires that make other countries fires look like sputtering match sticks in comparison, insurance companies refuse to insure properties in high-risk areas against fire damage.

That said, what usually happens in a bush fire is either the owners stay inside and protect the house themselves, or our rural fire service does the job for them. When they aren't busy fighting fires in Australia, they get sent to the US to fight their fires and train their fire fighters.

It is possible to protect a house from bush fires - clear a large area around the house (nothing more than short grass), keep gutters free of leaves and other inflammable material, get a swimming pool and a pump and soak the house before the fire hits but leave enough water to put out fires afterwards. Stay indoors with windows shut, curtains or preferably blinds drawn, with gaps under doors blocked to prevent smoke from entering the house. Once the fire passes, go outside and put out the spot fires that have probably started around the house - on the roof and so forth.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[MadnessASAP]

Move to southern Ontario, we only have a minor fault line running under Ottawa that most people have never heard of. The rest of it is basically a giant solid rock. We don't have enough forest to get a proper fire going, Global warming is fixing up our blizzard problem and were too far north and too far inland for any hurricanes to bother us. Quebec is also pretty good, Vancouver island in BC is alright except for the fault line but that hasn't cause any major problems in a long time AFAIK. Or the prairies if you don't mind the really cold winters.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[mikael]

I always wondered whether it would be possible to create aluminised fire blankets large enough to cover an entire house. It's certainly possible to get tarpaulin and plastic sheet that size, could the same be done for heat proof materials?

Re:Fire Evacuees

[toddestan]

There is a big difference between living in an area where you might have a natural disaster destroy your home, versus living in an area where a natural disaster destroying your home is inevitable.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[amRadioHed]

I was wondering the same thing. So many of the house fires are started by these relatively small embers blown by the wind. Something as simple but impractical as a big fireplace screen would be sufficient to protect the homes.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[Anonymous Coward]

Punk. You ever Lived in L.A.? Or been evacuatd in front of 40-foot flames? Shut up.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[phantomfive]

Heh, loser. (Look, I can call names too!) As a matter of fact I was evacuated in front of 40-foot flames last July at lake Tahoe. Never lived in LA, although having driven through it, I have to agree that living there is probably the greater of the two afflictions. Hot girls though. Crazy place.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[maxume]

Yeah, there are several carriers that won't write insurance in California. People are talking about the government stepping in and doing it.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[rebelcan]

Don't move to BC. We don't want you.

We're having enough trouble with our hippies right now, thanks =D

Re:Fire Evacuees

[MadnessASAP]

Sorry but if you have a problem with bippies, BC is definetly not the place for you. A huge portion of the culture and I would suspect a significant portion on the economy revolves arounf pot. I used to live there and visit relatives and freinds every summer, it has to be one of the most laid back places in the world.

Re:Fire Evacuees

[rebelcan]

I was being silly ( being somewhat of a hippie myself ). But I'm fairly sure that most of the hippies ( especially those in the Vancouver area ) probably wouldn't mesh well with yuppies and such from our neighbors down south. I know I don't.

Subsumed?

[n6kuy]

I think he meant consumed.

Re:Subsumed?

[aicrules]

Maybe the cell network got bought out and integrated into a larger one during the fire :)

Re:Subsumed?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

The Cal State San Marcos main server and mail server are both down this morning...

Now that's hard core

[Critical Facilities]

As you might expect from a mobility expert, he's filling his shelter time "fire blogging." And he's also answered my e-mailed questions about how the people and technology are holding up in his shelter.
The guy is literally running for his life to escape wildfires, yet has the brass balls to 'fire blog'. If that's not worthy of a nomination to Geek of the Year, I dunno what is.

Re:Now that's hard core

[Anonymous Coward]

some black 14 y old who doesn't have a life?

Re:Now that's hard core

[R2.0]

"The guy is literally running for his life to escape wildfires, yet has the brass balls to 'fire blog'."

You use the word "literally". I do not think that word means what you think it means. If he was "literally" running for his life to escape, that means his legs are moving rapidly and if he stops, his ass will suffer 3rd degree burns promptly. If you can show me how to do ANYTHING while "running for your life" other than run - and maybe scream and yell - I'm all ears.

I think the word you are looking for is "figuratively".

Re:Now that's hard core

[evilviper]

The guy is literally running for his life to escape wildfires, yet has the brass balls to 'fire blog'. If that's not worthy of a nomination to Geek of the Year, I dunno what is.

Bah! You clearly don't know California. Evacuating your home due to wild fires here is a lot like a road closure elsewhere... a minor annoyance you have to put up with for a few days, every couple years. Where your schools might close for "snow days", we have "fire days". Blogging about it is the most natural thing in the world... You have lots of time to kill.

Re:Now that's hard core

[mabhatter654]

These guys commute 3 hours every day.. they just can't go home. Hardly running for their lives but still serious because there's a high value of properties at stake.

That said it's too bad there's not some government stockpile of 10k to 20k people willing to help out and defend the city. If only there was some group of people dedicated to helping out after/during natural disasters.

Re:Now that's hard core

[value_added]

The guy is literally running for his life to escape wildfires, yet has the brass balls to 'fire blog'. If that's not worthy of a nomination to Geek of the Year, I dunno what is.

It's easy and often perfectly valid to dismiss blogging as a self-induglent activity, but the fact of the matter in this case (and innumerable others), is that the information people need is spread between local news outlets, right-wing AM radio personalities (the FM folks are too busy rotating their playlists and offering commercials), and a hodgepodge of federal, local, and state offices and websites that even in the best of times are of questionable usefulness.

California is a sprawling mess, so there is no center of anything anywhere. Many of the areas affected could be described as "rural" for people accustomed to living in larger or more cohesive cities, but even the larger cities here are often just an amalgamation of "rural" areas. What would you expect from an city or county website where the population numbers a few hundred thousand? Local news (of any sort just about anywhere) is often a joke. The same could be said of what one could expect from the local TV stations. Going up the ladder, you get to the federal level; good luck getting them on the phone. There are federal websites such as inciweb.org that are set up for this kind of emergency, but too general to be of use for many. That website is down while I write this.

So, where does that leave you? Calling the local police and fire department, or the forestry folks? And hope they know something, aren't overwhelmed (they are) to take yet another call, and have information that's accurate enough, or up to date? They're staffed to answer the flood of phone calls, but if they do have a website, they may or may not update it (daily, if you're lucky) or otherwise bother to provide any useful information. And if you yourself have relevant information, what do you do with it? Call your friends? Post to Slashdot Questions with "My house is on fire!"?

The temperature where I am is going to shoot up an extra 10 degrees (to 100F) for the day, and I'm still left scrambling for information. That said, I'll probably do what I did most of yesterday, watch things burn on TV while listening to the dramatic voiceovers.

Last count there were 12 major fire areas so I'll expect lots of human interest stories to fill the airtime. If I'm lucky, I may hear informed discussions on the politics of the situation -- the too few (Canadian) airtankers and the taxpayers who don't want to pay for them, or a technical discussion of why most are grounded anyway.

Or maybe some bloggers can get it together and offer something more useful. Hell, informed commentary would be a step up. Maybe Craiglist, for example, could add a Local Emergencies section to their Autos, Queers, and Vegan discussion groups? This is the information age, right?

Re:Now that's hard core

[Duhavid]

I don't know about "running for his life". The evacuations
have been pretty orderly so far as I can tell ( Poway, CA,
right in the little pocket ). And they have been called in
plenty of time for most, AFAICT. Maybe sauntering for his
life. Promenading? I don't see a lot of panic.

Oh, and he is probably at Qualcomm stadium, pretty safe.

Re:Now that's hard core

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about "running for his life". The evacuations have been pretty orderly so far as I can tell.
Maybe sauntering for his life. Promenading? I don't see a lot of panic.

This is the American West. He was moseyin' for his life. :)

Re:Now that's hard core

[47Ronin]

A lot of organizations are taking advantage of "Web 2.0" technologies, especially since the city/county-run emergency service websites are completely broken or abandoned. The local public radio station KPBS is using Twitter to update listeners with text/SMS emergency information every few minutes. The Port of San Diego is mirroring this information using a javascript-based RSS scraper of the same Twitter feed and is mirroring KPBS's amazing interactive Google map.

Re:Now that's hard core

[ross.w]

Hard core?

In Jindabyne and Adaminaby they have fire days AND snow days (but usually not at the same time)

Don't think anyone would expect wireless broadband though, except maybe skiers from Sydney.

Re:Now that's hard core

[evilviper]

In Jindabyne and Adaminaby they have fire days AND snow days

That's true in much of California as well. Lots of mountain ranges. Right now, Arrowhead is burning. They get plenty of snow. Last year, maybe it was Big Bear (lots of snow). Maybe next year it'll be Silverwood. All three mountains, right next to each other, at the very North-end of the L.A. Basin.

Priorities CA

[MSTCrow5429]

"Honey, the house is on fire!" "Grab the laptop!" "What about the kids and the dog?" "Screw them, I need my WiFi fix!"

Re:Priorities CA

[bigredradio]

I live in SD. Half of my co-workers are evacuated from their homes. There is a possibility I will get called today. Your joke is not that funny. Laptops are used for finance, important papers, etc. Instead of packing up a filing cabinet, the laptop is now the source for important information.

Re:Priorities CA

[R2.0]

Actually it's very funny, especially when combined with the fact that a similar thing happened to the same folks just 4 years ago, but non-fireproof houses were rebuilt in the same fire prone areas.

Comedy Gold!

Re:Priorities CA

[Traxxas]

Fireproof houses don't exist, even full concrete and steel structures will burn down.

Re:Priorities CA

[ErikZ]

Er, no not really. Yes, you can damage anything if you apply enough heat to it. But reinforced concrete buildings do not burn with normal fires found on the planet earth.

It's one of the main selling points of monolithic domes. The second is the insulated coating that makes it extremely fire resistant.

http://www.monolithic.com/gallery/homes/braswell_fire/index.html

People who want to build houses made of *wood* in areas that regularly have wildfires should be laughed at.

Re:Priorities CA

[fredklein]

Um, no. Concrete does not burn.* At least not under real-world brush-fire conditions. Neither do steel or brick. Or aluminum siding.

Sheesh CA, you're as bad as the people in New Orleans.

*Yeah, yeah, theoretically....

Re:Priorities CA

[Anonymous Coward]

My word man! Have you no sympathy for these poor millionaires being forced to flee for one of their other 4 homes? Do you know how terrible it is to have 5 homes one day and only 4 homes the next? No, you don't! You could never understand the pain of only having 4 multi-million dollar homes, you insensitive clod!

Re:Priorities CA

[MSTCrow5429]

Look, if my laptop blew up, I'd be screwed, but I'm a student, and professionals should be able to afford off-site backup. If the laptop isn't a Dell but still goes up in flames, you haven't lost all of your data, just the most recent alterations. Californians have a deserved reputation for blinkered priorities and general flakiness.

Re:Priorities CA

[compro01]

concrete and steel will not be ignited by the temperatures produced by a wood-and-grass fire, so they're fireproof enough for the purpose of this discussion.

Re:Priorities CA

[Gregb05]

The Bryant Fire did, however, destroy the electrical box on the outside of the dome and cause smoke damage on the inside. Consequently, the Braswells could not live in their dome home for more than six weeks after the fire, while the electrical system was repaired, painting completed and carpeting replaced.

Additional losses for the Braswells included three antique vehicles, a foam machine, a compressor, a utility trailer and miscellaneous equipment, for an estimated total of about $300,000.

Yep, saved a lot of money there, with that dome.

Re:Priorities CA

[kd5ujz]

Concrete will not burn, but it will crack under heat. It does not handle rapid expansion very well. Try taking an oxy-acetylene torce to a chunk of concrete someday.

Re:Priorities CA

[tcolberg]

Beyond the first step of using fire-resistant materials in building your home, the second step is yearly maintenance of the brush surrounding your property. CA is supposed to have semi-annual brush fires to clear out brush as a natural cycle, so if we humans don't want fires, we need to do it ourselves. In the case of the Malibu fire, there was at least one resident who talked on the news about how a fire inspector came by a couple months ago and told him to clear the area behind his property. He did (though one can make the argument that he has the money to afford laborers) and he watched the fire come up just behind his house and stop because there wasn't sufficient fuel.

The point is that people who live in CA, especially those who live in areas with lots of brush, need fire resistant housing, annual brush clearing, and homeowners insurance with good coverage (we have other disasters out here too). We need family evacuation plans.

Re:Priorities CA

[R2.0]

Are you retarded? Are you seriously suggesting that, by not burning up, the concrete house cost them money? Did you perhaps consider that, with a conventional house, their losses would have been perhaps double the money? And that they would have had to wait upwards of a year for it to be rebuilt, instead of 6 weeks for cleaning?

That's like saying that crashing your car on the interstate cost you money for car repairs, when you could have crashed your bicycle at the same speed and saved the damage to the car. Although in your case, probably not a big loss to the gene pool.

Re:Priorities CA

[fredklein]

Silly me, I thought a brush fire was just that- brush (grass, bushes, maybe trees) on fire. Those burn a lot cooler than an oxy-acetylene mix. A concrete, brick, or earth-bermed house should easily be able to withstand an ordinary brush fire. But not one of those 3,480 C California brush fires.

Re:Priorities CA

[Anonymous Coward]

SO, it destroyed something (the electrical box) Outside the home, but nothing inside the home. Sounds good to me. The smoke damage was probably due to some idiot leaving a window open.

They couldn't live there for 6 weeks? How long would it take for a wood-framed house to be demolished and re-built from scratch?

$300,000? The three antique vahicles could easily account for most of that. And they would have been lost no matter what the house was made of.

Apples != Oranges.

Re:Priorities CA

[ErikZ]

Some people just like to argue. For instance, he didn't even TRY to estimate how much Additional losses for the Braswells included three antique vehicles, a foam machine, a compressor, a utility trailer and miscellaneous equipment cost.

The fact is, if you own a monolithic dome and try to get insurance for it, it'll be classified as a "Reinforced Concrete Bunker".

Once your local insurance company figures that out, your insurance (Fire, earthquake, or hurricane) will be cheap. And it's cheap because they rarely have to pay out any damages on structures like that.

My favorite stories are the domes that are built on the beach that are hit by hurricanes. The only damage they take is from the neighbors houses as they're ripped apart. And even that's only to equipment outside the dome.

Re:Priorities CA

[compro01]

presumably, with a fireproof house, evacuation wouldn't be necessary. just close the doors and windows, put a suitable filter on the fresh air intake, and let it go past.

i think i read about such an event either last year or the year before in some magazine. might have been popsci.

Re:Priorities CA

[lgarner]

What you don't realize is that an evacuation order typically is given just a wee bit before the flames are at your doorstep. You shouldn't be running out of a smoking house with your clothes on fire, rather you have some time to get your things together.

Re:Priorities CA

[MSTCrow5429]

I'm aware of the nature of evacuation orders. It just wouldn't be funny if I made it ultra-realistic. Reality sucks.

Re:Priorities CA

[FauxReal]

I live in SD. Half of my co-workers are evacuated from their homes. There is a possibility I will get called today. Your joke is not that funny. Laptops are used for finance, important papers, etc. Instead of packing up a filing cabinet, the laptop is now the source for important information. I can agree with that... but what about the kids and the dog?

Isn't it great.

[Xest]

Isn't it great that technology like the internet has reached the point of acceptance that when peoples houses are burning down one of the main priorities is to ensure the shelter everyone has to hide in has wireless internet access and that people make sure they at least rescue their laptops and PDAs.

I'm sure it wasn't much more than 5 years ago that people would look at you funny if you turned up in such a place and said "Right, where's the net access?".

Oh how times change ;)

Re:Isn't it great.

[aadvancedGIR]

It might look funny from an external point of view, but when you stack hundreds of people in shelters for days, morale soon becomes a concern as big as logistic. Giving them a way to get independant information and communicate with the rest of the world and their families is a cheap but effective way of reducing the stress of the refugees.

Re:Isn't it great.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Isn't it great that technology like the internet has reached the point of acceptance that when peoples houses are burning down one of the main priorities is to ensure the shelter everyone has to hide in has wireless internet access and that people make sure they at least rescue their laptops and PDAs."

They need information about their loved ones and the celluar network isn't handling the load. 'Everyone' isn't running into burning houses and rescuing their computers. They're being evacuated because their houses are endangered by the fire some ways away.

"I'm sure it wasn't much more than 5 years ago that people would look at you funny if you turned up in such a place and said "Right, where's the net access?"."

Go back to any point in time when a disaster like this takes place and anybody'll say "I need to know where my loved ones are."

"Oh how times change ;)"

The more things change, the more they stay the same. That's what's happening, here.

Re:Isn't it great.

[LWATCDR]

Well considering that many people now keep their photos, home movies, and finical records in digital form taking your notebook is a lot like taking the photo album. My wife keeps two portable hard drives with all that stuff on it just in case.
Having the Internet in this case available is very useful. It allows you to contact your family and friends to let them know you are okay and to get news. During the Hurricanes the Hams where passing a lot of traffic just to let people know that there loved ones where okay.

The big problem is still evacuation routing. When Frances was coming my wife and decided that we would bolt. It looked like a CAT 5 at the time and that is just too big to risk.. Some friends headed out hours before us but took the "freeway" I took an old back road. They went less than 100 miles in 16 hours. Many people where in danger of running out of fuel on the road. We had no problems and went twice as far in less time. The problem is everybody will try and jump on the freeways and over load them. If one gets cut then you are in real trouble.

Re:Isn't it great.

[jollyreaper]

It might look funny from an external point of view, but when you stack hundreds of people in shelters for days, morale soon becomes a concern as big as logistic. Giving them a way to get independant information and communicate with the rest of the world and their families is a cheap but effective way of reducing the stress of the refugees. Communication is the best part. It's total chaos when you go through something like this. I went through the last three hurricanes that hit South Florida and I have to tell you, having a text-enabled cell phone was a great help. The cell towers are up and running before the landlines and text messages take up a lot less bandwidth than voice calls and your phone will keep trying to send until it gets a moment of access. In high volume cell situations, text always trumps voice.

I would say that part of any modern evacuation plan would be establishing web-based email contacts for all your vital parties, then knowing that this is the best way to communicate. It might be a while before you have access to a computer but there you go, you can reach your people.

Also, from a psychological point of view, it's just nice to know what's going on with your people. It was bad enough going throgh the storms but I would have really hated not having the TV and radio, not even knowing what's happening beyond my house. I couldn't imagine going through this kind of thing a hundred years ago, back when you didn't even know a damn storm was on the way until the wind started blowing.

Re:Isn't it great.

[IvyKing]

In the case of Qualcomm stadium or the Del Mar fairgrounds, we're talking about thousands of people. Your point about morale is absolutely right on.

Re:Isn't it great.

[pla]

when you stack hundreds of people in shelters for days, morale soon becomes a concern

"You haven't died yet, people - Suck it up!"

Morale? C'mon, seriously. Priority 1 - no fire. Priority 2, toilets. Priority 3, food and water. Priority 4? The day humanity manages to accomplish #3, we can figure out a #4. Until then...

The shelters exist to give people a place to crash for a few days while their houses finish burning to the ground. Save the feel-good morale BS for your Thursday afternoon group therapy meeting.

Re:Isn't it great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you don't have any loved ones in the affected area or you'd be overjoyed at getting an e-mail saying they're safe. Either that or you just hate everyone.

Re:Isn't it great.

[Anonymous Coward]

>In the case of Qualcomm stadium or the Del Mar fairgrounds, we're talking about thousands of people. Your point about morale is absolutely right on.

Thousands (tens of thousands) of *Los Angeles* residents, mainly those who don't have the ability to go someplace besides a public shelter. (Those who can't just keep going and wait out the fire season in their villas in Palm Springs or Phoenix). No doubt, stadium turf is being staked out by gang factions already.

Re:Isn't it great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Los Angeles residents?

Re:Isn't it great.

[timeOday]

people make sure they at least rescue their laptops and PDAs.

What do you own with a higher density of value than your laptop? It's as small as a book, costs thousands of dollars, holds all your most important information, and allows you to make arrangements and gather information... how stupid would you be to leave that behind?

slightly offtopic

[mapkinase]

whoever follows fires in SD county, the map

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&ie=UTF8&om=1&msa=0&msid=114250687465160386813.00043d08ac31fe3357571&ll=32.990236,-116.732483&spn=1.105782,1.757813&z=9&source=embed

Re:slightly offtopic

[ejdmoo]

Nice map. Is it realtime somehow?

Re:slightly offtopic

[Sponge Bath]

The green player should have allocated more resources for research.
His cavalry is outclassed by those tank units.

Re:slightly offtopic

[lazarus]

Thank you. My Mother-in-law just evacuated from her place near Crestline, and not being from California, or even the U.S. I was having trouble getting the kind of information you just provided. Thank you thank you thank you. She's checked into a motel half way to Palm Springs and has e-mail us to let us know she is okay. Again, much like the original article she is using Internet technology to get the word out. Cheers!

Subsumed?

[Anonymous Coward]

The local cell networks were subsumed by traffic early in the day

I do not think it means what you think it means.

subsume
1. to consider or include (an idea, term, proposition, etc.) as part of a more comprehensive one.
2. to bring (a case, instance, etc.) under a rule.
3. to take up into a more inclusive classification.

From Dictionary.com

Running for his life?

[Anonymous Coward]

hardly, sounds more like he evacuated well before the fires got near and plans to go to stay with a relative...

he even stopped to mooch some grub off the local shelter.

if that is running for your life then i guess next time i put a bandaid on my kids knee ill tell everyone i performed open heart surgery.

ive got a few questions though... how are the gas pumps doing through all this? is there a gas shortage?

are they jacking up the prices on the highways?

is al gore going to relate this to global warming?

is manbearpig responsible for it all?

sincerely

-anonymous coward

Re:Running for his life?

[reanjr]

how are the gas pumps doing through all this?
The ones that are not in areas under fire are fine

is there a gas shortage?
doesn't appear to be one; could be because so few people are driving

are they jacking up the prices on the highways?
you mean just over the past couple of days? no, but they're chronically jacked up anyway

is al gore going to relate this to global warming?
it is likely

is manbearpig responsible for it all?
quite possibly

Wireless Skype Phone

[Bryansix]

In the article he talks about his wireless Skype Phone. These things are really nice to have around. I have one at home since I don't get any cell reception there. I forsee that in 5 years all cell phones will just have this built in though.

Re:Wireless Skype Phone

[Gospodin]

Why would they do that? Wouldn't it hurt the bottom line?

Re:Wireless Skype Phone

[Bryansix]

T-Mobile already has plans to do it.

Re:Wireless Skype Phone

[jollyreaper]

In the article he talks about his wireless Skype Phone. These things are really nice to have around. I have one at home since I don't get any cell reception there. I forsee that in 5 years all cell phones will just have this built in though. Tmobile is doing this right now but you need to have a branded hub for it to work. Why? It's your own bandwidth you're using, what's the problem? So once they stop being dicks about it, this will be great.

Wireless with real time webcams of fire

[Danathar]

NSF funds a wireless research network with webcams on mountains and in valleys.

http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/cameras/

It's called the High performance wireless research network. Firefighters and police have been using it for communications in past fires and are undoubtedly using this time as well.

Re:Wireless with real time webcams of fire

[Bryansix]

Firefighters and police have been using it for communications in past fires and are undoubtedly using this time as well.

So you decided to post the link so it would be slashdotted and nobody could use it?

Re:Wireless with real time webcams of fire

[Danathar]

Sarcasm...nice

Big One

[Cally]

I've always been interested in the incipient Big One ever since the meme that it was due in 1976 and is now overdue went around. As the amount of critical infrastructure situated in and around SoCal has exploded along with the ubiquitous internet / cell connectivity, I can't help thinking that things are going to get pretty ugly when it comes, even if most of the actual buildings stand up and initial casualties are low, because of the density of comms and their upstream dependencies (power, transport links for service engineers, net ops and NOCs that maintain rather than going home to try digging out relatives, etc.

A morbid line of thought, I know, but I do BCP / DR planning for my employer and we had a recent brush with an unplanned disaster (loss of a critical site for two weeks, due to the UK floods in July) which was a very... "interesting" experience. It was interesting how resilient we were despite having to wing it and improvise under tight time pressure; however, we were very very close to the point where it would all have fallen to bits. If a certain electricity substation flooded there'd be no power (== comms, food distribution,...) etc for the whole County. The CEP contingency plan for that is "evacuate Gloucestershire". The moral is, it's all good as long as you've got power, food & water, and your critical employees can and are able to work without putting themselves at risk.

Re:Big One

[baegucb_18706]

I contacted my brother in San Diego via email to his work. I had read San Diego was having the cell phone network getting overloaded. And found out he expects his home in Rancho Bernardo burned down, since they evacuated as the flames came up the canyon. Once things settle down there, I'm going to find out if his company used a DR plan and how it went. He has a very technology dependent company, where his employees are encouraged to work from home. Maybe I can use some of his DR plan, and the response, for where I work.

Re:Big One

[geekoid]

Here is the think about earth quakes in the US.
If you survive the intial event, within 3 days of walking you will be out of the area. That's worse case.
SO keep your supplies in a back back for each member, and take water jugs with handles.

The moral of your story is actually:
Don't depend on 1 substation.

Their priorities are all wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

The evacuees should be provided plasma flatscreens before wireless access.

Re:Their priorities are all wrong

[CloneBot]

I for one do NOT want to see the family home burn up in HD.

Re:Their priorities are all wrong

[Mechcozmo]

Actually, a local news reporter covered his own home burning down. He said it was better to know than be left in limbo. One of my friends lives in his neighborhood.

Fire = really awesome LAN gaming

[Aneurism75]

Sounds like that shelter would be a great place to do some LAN gaming. Hell I would endure my house burning down for some great LAN gaming in the fire shelter! Fire oh noes! Team Fortress 2 all day and night for a month... YEAH!!

Re:Fire = really awesome LAN gaming

[pwnies]

Actually it's not that great. Usually after the first few days of being in the smoke (which in the 2003 fire lasted for about 3 weeks after all the fires were out if I remember correctly [I had to play football the day after thanksgiving and it was still raining ash]), you start to get really bad headaches. Because of this, LAN style gaming is actually at its worse. Loud noises irritate the hell out of you, the smoke burns your eyes which makes it hard to focus on a single object for a long time, there are frequent power outages, and the ash in the air gets into your computer. Not fun, trust me.

Ham Radio ??

[Wapiti-eater]

I'm curious to read the after action reports - no more so than the folks living this nightmare. I'm curious to see how the local ham community participated in all this.

Using texting for 'Health and Welfare' messaging via WiFi at a shelter is great and the shelter folks are to be applauded for making that work so well! Such communications has traditionally been - at least augmented - by the amateur radio community. Was there still need/a place for this? Where they reachable by those dozen or so people who don't have texting cell phones or WiFi clients? Did the hams setup the WiFi access, coordinate it or what did they do?

Who knows - maybe now the SSB and CW enthusiasts will finally have to learn how to deal with TCP/IP, CAT5, WiFi and texting - in spite of the Jay Leno message race results.

Re:Ham Radio ??

[bendodge]

Well, like you mentioned, ham radio is a great way to make long-range data connections. It's very easy to imagine ham's setting up an internet link to disrupted areas.

Re:Ham Radio ??

[HeyMe]

In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, many areas had no infrastructure left, period. No power, no water, no telephone and no cell phone coverage, either. For many people and places, Ham Radio was the only reliable link to the outside. Cell services and all of those really expensive 700 MHz and 800 MHz trunking systems that our taxpayer dollars are buying aren't worth a toot when half of the towers are out of commission.

And as for ham radio operators being out of the technological loop (i.e. internet), check these out:

ahref=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echolinkrel=url2html-15676http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echolink>
ahref=http://www.airmail2000.com/rel=url2html-15676http://www.airmail2000.com/>

73's

Re:Ham Radio ??

[DarthBart]

Doing H&W over WiFi is great if your shelter already has internet connectivity. You might get lucky enough to latch on to some willing neighbour's cable modem.

Failing that, you've got some old man wearing his ARRL/ARES/RACES baseball cap carrying around a walkie-talkie.

Out in the field, though, plenty of disaster & disaster recovery agencies are moving to satellite. Pull up with your mobile EOC with an auto-deploy antenna on the roof, push a button, 3 minutes later you've got anywhere between 64kbps and 20Mbps of IP connectivity for VoIP, FoIP, or whatever.

Re:Ham Radio ??

[Anonymous Coward]

And as for ham radio operators being out of the technological loop (i.e. internet), check these out:

ahref=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echolinkrel=url2html-15676http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echolink>

ahref=http://www.airmail2000.com/rel=url2html-15676http://www.airmail2000.com/>

Perhaps when demonstrating you're not out of the technological loop you could format links correctly so that they actually work without the reader having to clean up your (technologically ignorant) mess.

Re:Ham Radio ??

[Wapiti-eater]

Interesting. Showing how modern ham radio is by posting a link to a system that's basically non-functional without an existing commercial infrastructure (EchoLink). Think about that for a second. That's progress?
Now, for fun: poll your local group of Amateur Extras, your local ham techno leaders - count up how many of them can connect to, setup or even know how to find a remote E-link node. Now, ask the same question of your newest bunch of techs - the n00bs of the game. Interesting ratio isn't it.

Airmail 2000 - yes, yes. PACTOR really shows Amateur Radio's progress. Yup, you betchya. A modern, contemporary communications system that's based on an encoding technology first publicly used before the TRS-80 was released and moves data at 200bps - if you're lucky.

At the least, you could've pulled out the ol "PSK31 is as good as CW" argument - at least that dog can walk. PSK31, at least, was a newer idea.

Now, how would a group of hams handle H&W traffic for a shelter like Qualcom stadium? OK, maybe one about half that size. Maybe a quarter that size?
VHF/UHF voice to outside stations with HF links to other stations or maybe just to a station with I-net access and email? How long is it going to take to get status messages out for 2.5K people using a setup like that?
How about a 2.4Ghz, 54Mbit robust link via rapidly deployed, self sustaining gear to provide managed, meshed, multi-client access to high speed switched packet connectivity - providing self service messaging.
Nope, that's not real "ham radio" and you know most hams wouldn't even recognize such a description as WiFI. Worse, how many would be able to connect their laptops to it. Hell, how many hams you know that even HAVE laptops? How many of 'em are WiFi enabled? And for a kicker - how many know what WPA2 is?

The professionals are getting so good at providing high volume, high bandwidth and robust communications it takes a disaster on the scale of 9/11 or Katrina for ham radio's "infrastructure-less" systems to be much more than a novelty.

By the way - I am that old man with the HT and an HF rig in the basement, and the club's server farm and the local APRS infrastructure and the local E-link node. But maybe not - I'm also the wild eyed fanatic with the Extra ticket that's so damned frustrated with this 'laurel sitting' I see so much of in the ham community. A story like this comes out and the first reaction I get from the locals is self-righteous defensiveness about how 'they' are intruding on 'our' traditional roll. How dare they progress to the point that we can't contribute what we did 10 years ago! They so often forget that part of our 'task' is to put ourselves out of a job. Develop these methods and systems to the point they CAN'T fail. Instead, they'd rather spend mega-bucks on Kenwood's latest AVL applicance with 2k4 instant messaging. Or get all wet when they can connect their HT to a repeater in the next state by Internet.

You wanna talk 'bout the dumbing down of Ham Radio? It's not the FCC's exams.

Yea, I'm eager to read the after actions on this. See just how useful the 'ol farts' with the HTs actually were when the shelter has it's own WiFi up and running. Gotta wonder if that ol fart even knew it was there.

73

And with MODIS / GOES satellite imagery...

[Lord Satri]

The official Google Lat Lon blog gives some more info, but also interesting are the Google Earth Blog showing us how to overlay the smoke plumes in Google Earth using MODIS and GOES data and here's more and even a time animation which illustrates the spread of the fire.

Please use Text Messages

[DaveLatham]

I think one important thing that was hinted at by the summary, and mentioned more explicitly in the article is this:

Is everything working as it should? Any glitches?

...The one message local media could have been better communicating is for evacuees to use cell phones only when they are necessary and then to try and limit the use to texting.

If you're in an emergency area, please minimize your voice use, and try to use text messages instead as they are much more lightweight on the cell networks. And pass the message on to those around you.

Re:Please use Text Messages

[csnydermvpsoft]

If you're in an emergency area, please minimize your voice use, and try to use text messages instead as they are much more lightweight on the cell networks. And pass the message on to those around you.

Unfortunately, with the bass-ackwards cell phone rate plans available in this country, voice minutes are included, while text messages cost extra.

subsumed

[drmarcj]

The local cell networks were subsumed by traffic

In the words of Inigno Montoya, "I do not think it means what you think it means." (Yes, I know I'm going to hell for correcting the grammar of a person who's been rendered homeless by a natural disaster.)

Wait a sec...

[Dancindan84]

I think I heard about this on bash.org already.

300,000+ reverse 911 calls - plug for POTS

[IvyKing]

One of the great technology success stories of the ongoing fires is the number of people told to evacuate via reverse 911 calls. The bad news is that the calls only work for standard landline (and presumably cable_co phones where the number is tied to a specific address). In my case, I went to bed last night with a wired phone next to the bed - didn't want to depend on the power being on for the wireless phones.

One sign of the success of the program is that only one fatality has been reported so far.

Kudo's to 'Craig' for posting the information to Google Maps Sunday evening - that was the most informative source for info on the fire Sunday evening - pretty clear by 11PM that I wasn't going to work the next day (work was in a mandatory evac zone declared Monday morning).

Some of the technology that hasn't worked has been the local '211' website (absolutely worthless) and the San Diego Union-Tribune website yesterday afternoon - they finally fixed that by dumping a lot of the flash and hosting the news updates on Blogspot. The local TV sites had too much flash to be useful.

Re:300,000+ reverse 911 calls - plug for POTS

[Experiment 626]

One of the great technology success stories of the ongoing fires is the number of people told to evacuate via reverse 911 calls.

In Southern California, 911 calls YOU! I wonder if this lifesaving technology was pioneered in Soviet Russia...

Re:Priorities in your mom's basement

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me put it in terms you can understand. Imagine if your mom's basement was engulfed in a fire and all your p0rn and D&D books vanished overnight.

Dumbasses /.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Honey, the house is on fire!" "Grab the laptop!" "What about the kids and the dog?" "Screw them, I need my WiFi fix!" "Honey, there's a fire a few miles up the road. I've already got the kids and the dog packed up. Anything else we should grab?"

"I heard on the news that the cell phone network is having trouble with the load."

"Okay, I'll throw the laptop in the trunk. Anything else?"

"Well, we still have time..."

There, fixed that for you. I'm not sure if I'm more disappointed in the Slashdot readership for thinking the evacuations are being caused by people's houses instantly engulfing themselves in flames, or the sensationalist media depicting mother nature on a godzilla-esque rampage. Whatever.

Lack of Fire Breaks

[Ex-MislTech]

The real issue here is environmentalists will not let them cut fire breaks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_break

I understand them not wanting to cut it all down, but a few fire breaks in key spots
would help them fight the fire, and would slow its spread as well.

A few more water towers in the area on the tops of the hills would help them not
have to truck in as much water, and or a list of all ppl with swimming pools in the area.

The firebreaks do need to be fairly wide as the wind was a factor in these, as usual.

Ex-MislTech

Re:Lack of Fire Breaks

[Ex-MislTech]

For the pricks that say they don't work, chew on this ...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20070822/ai_n19475884

Re:Lack of Fire Breaks

[Kelson]

The firebreaks do need to be fairly wide as the wind was a factor in these, as usual.

Yeah, the fire closest to where I am jumped across the 241 toll road yesterday morning, which is a 6-lane divided highway with a large empty strip in the middle. Though now that I think about it, depending on the condition in the median, that probably means it was effectively two parallel 3-lane firebreaks. (4 lanes each if you count the shoulders.)

Re:Lack of Fire Breaks

[CaptainDefragged]

Fire breaks generally are used as a point to back burn/fire from, not as a break to stop the travel of the fire. They also help to create "fire blocks"- kind of like a residential block - where the entire fire block is taken out if a fire is ignited in one. Regardless, these fires appear to be mainly grass fires in extreme conditions with what we used to call "crossover" (humidity is less than temperature in deg C). Firebreaks are not much use fighting grass fires with 100km/hr winds and less than 5% humidity). As a side note, most structures are lost in bushfires not from the actual fire front, but from ember attack or residual fires left burning on the property after the fire front has passed.

Re:Lack of Fire Breaks

[PhoenixOne]

Ex-MislTech are you out here? Can you see the teams of environmentalists yelling at fire crews not to cut fire breaks? No? Fuck off.

We have fire breaks, they're call freeways. They don't work. With 70+ MPH winds, you can't cut a break wide enough to stop these fires.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to cough up some black shit and then head back out to give blankets to people who just lost everything they own...

Re:Priorities in your mom's basement

[mfnickster]

Imagine if your mom's basement was engulfed in a fire and all your p0rn and D&D books vanished overnight.

"Impossible, sir - they're in Johnson's underwear!"

You're missing the point

[calidoscope]

The whole point of the mass evacuations is getting people out way ahead of time so that the fire fighters can concentrate on fighting the fire and not rescuing people. Something like 250,000 people have been evacuated but maybe 1,000 homes have burned from the areas where most of the people have evacuated.

This is one lesson from the 2003 fires that was successfully learned.

Millionaires?

[Kelson]

I see you've been misled by the media coverage, which seems to be focusing entirely on the fires in Malibu. Believe it or not, there are fires spread out across Southern California, affecting a lot more than just the fabulously wealthy.

I can hardly find anything on the fire blazing through the rural areas of Orange County (and no, it's not all rich people either), which is maybe 5-6 miles from my workplace and has crept up on the borders of residential and business tracts in several cities near the hills. Except for the websites for one local newspaper and the county fire authority, I can get more information by looking out the window of a conference room and seeing which hills have smoke rising from them.

Even those not directly theatened by fires are inhaling smoke, or dealing with sporadic power outages, or dealing with damage from the high winds.

The 300,000+ people evacuated from their homes in San Diego County (you don't think they're all millionaires, do you?) are finally getting some attention, but somehow a few movie stars manage to outrank the rest of the region's population in terms of newsworthiness.

In case anyone's interested, I've been blogging the OC fire... from a distance.

Question.

[antdude]

I heard this on the news radio last night. Is this reverse 911 thing for the whole country or is it just local (e.g., San Diego)?

Also, it scares me if someone finds a way to hack it and misuse it to scare people like this incident.

Re:Question.

[gyrogeerloose]

Is this reverse 911 thing for the whole country or is it just local (e.g., San Diego)?

Just San Diego County, initiated after the Cedar Fire of 2003

(Sitting at home in one possible path of the Harris Fire and watching the news, waiting for my own reverse 911 call to come while hoping it doesn't...)

Re:Question.

[antdude]

Nice. Good luck, man. I hope it doesn't ciome to you. And me (live on a giant hill with plenty of plants and trees). :)

T-Mobile wifi calling

[Kelson]

Tmobile is doing this right now but you need to have a branded hub for it to work.

I did some research on this when they started advertising it to current customers, and if you dig deep enough, it turns out that you can use it with a third-party hub. The "learn more" page has a link, Already Have a Router?, which says:

If you already have a wireless router, it will likely work with T-Mobile HotSpot @Home. However, T-Mobile routers have been specifically designed and configured to provide the best possible results in your home.

The main thing seems to be that the branded hubs do traffic shaping to give your voice traffic priority. It also claims to be "Optimized to provide longer battery life for your phone."

They clearly want to sell you a router, though, because they've buried this information about as thoroughly as they can while still making it available through site navigation. I'm not sure, but you might even have to be a current customer and log in to find it.

Re:T-Mobile wifi calling

[jollyreaper]

They clearly want to sell you a router, though, because they've buried this information about as thoroughly as they can while still making it available through site navigation. I'm not sure, but you might even have to be a current customer and log in to find it. Wow, what incredible douches.

What, networking no longer important in disasters?

[KWTm]

Isn't it great that technology like the internet has reached the point of acceptance that when peoples houses are burning down one of the main priorities is to ensure the shelter everyone has to hide in has wireless internet access and that people make sure they at least rescue their laptops and PDAs.

I'm sure it wasn't much more than 5 years ago that people would look at you funny if you turned up in such a place and said "Right, where's the net access?".

Oh, I get it. You're one of those people who thinks, "It's a disaster!" and everything suddenly turns into some post-apocalyptic science fiction movie. So, let me ask you:

Why are the fires a problem? Why is it a disaster that some 150,000 acres of land are burning up and darkening the sky with its smoke? I mean, only one person's *died* from it --heck, people die every day in traffic collisions and heart failure and stuff. So what's the problem?

The two main problems caused by this disaster are: 1) systems get disrupted, and 2) people lose their wealth. You see where the network is so important yet? Perhaps I'll make it clearer.

By "systems", I mean the infrastructure. Roads are closed, stores don't get supplies, needed medical services are diverted to rescue the sick, people can't get to work because they're living in Qualcomm stadium or the Del Mark fairgrounds. The economy of the area takes a huge hit. Also, of course, the phone system gets clogged by people wanting directions --where are the fires now?-- coordinating evacuations and asking after loved ones.

By "wealth", I mean not only material wealth as in homes and businesses, but also intangibles such as documents and insurance policies, etc. And "people" includes businesses.

But suppose people are able to stay connected, to know what's going on. They know that I-15 northbound is closed, so they can plan their evacuation routes. They can contact the sister in El Centro or the in-laws in Temecula, and know that that's available for evacuation (or that they've gone on vacation --try the brother in Yuma instead).

If they have secure Internet banking, they can start selling their stocks and diverting funds from their GIC's to their bank account so the money will be on hand when sudden cash expenditures are called for. Heck, in their spare time they might even be able to complete that company client report that's due the next day for the client living in New Jersey, to whom the disaster is just another story in the news and who doesn't care why the report wasn't done at exactly 9am as demanded. That way maybe the company can live with a 50% decrease in business rather than a 90% drop.

And the more people stay connected, the more quickly they can bounce back from the disaster and resume their lives. 'Cuz, goodness knows, there's a lot of work to be done in that department.

I'm lucky in that I've not been directly affected. But, boy, having that 120GB in the laptop would sure make a huge difference if I were ever to flee from my home.

Shoutcast Feed

[PatJensen]

I have a Shoutcast Feed up of the San Diego Fire Department radio traffic. It is at http://sdfire.blogsite.org:8000/

Hmm. I think I overreacted. Mod GP insightful

[KWTm]

Hmm. Looking at the GP post more carefully, I no longer see the sarcasm that had seemed to be there when I wrote the parent post. Sorry about that. Guess I got fooled by the Funny mod. Anyway, yes, it *is* indeed a good thing that Internet connectivity is now considered part of the essential supplies at a disaster shelter.

Lack of cattle and water-brigades.

[NRAdude]

I've been at Lake Forest [Calif.] for these five days, and within two miles of some fire on the hillside. Just a bunch of cowards around here.

The lack of fire breaks prove that there aren't any people expected to control the fire. It's all landscaped area by those Wetbacks. The supposed "firemen" running around holding their hoises are nothing more than spectators. If they ever had a contract to service someone's property over an area, then they already proved incompetancy. This fire shit is expected to happen every 3 years, so a Criminal can declare their Emergency to Judiciary and libel that they are exausted or fatigued; then the legislature will throw some unrelated paper around to supplement an Emergency: that will go unclosed for the next century, and usually under a misleading title like a water bill or mortgage effect.

Important next to a break in the forest and shrubbery; Cattle have always been used to naturally graze the brush to a lower height, and thereby improve the soil. As far as I know, this is all planned because none of this natural work ever occurs. Everyone loves cows, just not alive and walking near their fences. To quote my favorite 80-year-old Irvine cattle rancher from 1 year ago that I labored with on his 40-acre ranch, sequentially that was taken from his cattle to graze upon, and his general view of all the US'ians in California:

  "I hope this motherfucking place burns to a crisp, and those cocksuckers go with it."

lots of people using wifi?

[TheLink]

Wow think of the amount of passwords and stuff someone naughty could capture.

Sad WiFi doesn't have the equivalent of something like https/ssl yet, despite https being out before the abysmal crap called WEP.

https = anonymous client (cert optional), encrypted connection to server (with cert that can potentially be checked). Easy for user to use.

Currently I don't see an easy way to do the same thing with WiFi. I could set up something and ask users to enter the same username and password (not using WEP of course - since that's broken - same password = all users can see each others stuff), but it still involves too much from the user given current OSes and technology.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd really like to know. How would I provide easy and secure WiFi access to anonymous users using Windows, Macs etc?

Re:lots of people using wifi?

[stratjakt]

You really dont know the difference between the session and data link layers in the tcp/ip model, or that there even are layers, do you?

Well, now you have something to google.

Re:lots of people using wifi?

[mfnickster]

> You really dont know the difference between the session and data link layers in the tcp/ip model, or that there even are layers, do you?

The TCP/IP model doesn't have a "session" layer - you're thinking of OSI.

Re:lots of people using wifi?

[TheLink]

In your haste to tell me to google for things I've known well for more than a decade, you appear to have missed the main points:
1) How would I provide easy and secure WiFi access to anonymous users using Windows, Macs etc, without them being able to see each others traffic?
2) This sort of thing is in theory possible as it is proven by the _example_ of https.

Say you're running a cafe and you want to provide free access and have it reasonably secure - users can't see or successfully fake each other's traffic (they could still do DoS attacks but that's wireless for you).

https shows that is possible to encrypt stuff and keep one end anonymous, while having the anonymous participants still unable to snoop each other's traffic.

Whereas with WEP if everyone uses the same key, they can see each other's traffic, same goes for WPA with PSK. I believe you have to set up something like WPA (or WPA2) and don't use the PSK mode, add a radius server and use the same username and password (or set the radius server to accept everything), but there is no standard to make it easy. Users have to configure stuff (in error prone ways), and they have to type stuff, and admins need to set up extra servers.

I was using https as an example. I never said it can or should be done exactly like https. It just should be done better than the existing crap out there.

Re:lots of people using wifi?

[stratjakt]

You can see my SSL traffic on a wired network too, or at any point across the internet.

It doesn't matter one whit who can see it at the data link layer.

ITS ENCRYPTED.

And to the other repsonder, there are indeed Application, Presentation and Session layers, but they're commonly grouped into, and thought of as one since they all live on top of TCP.

Re:lots of people using wifi?

[mfnickster]

And to the other repsonder, there are indeed Application, Presentation and Session layers, but they're commonly grouped into, and thought of as one since they all live on top of TCP.

Check again. The very concept of a session layer comes from the OSI model. It's only considered "grouped" in TCP/IP because of comparison after the fact. Layers are intended to separate, and if the separation is not enforced (and it isn't enforced in TCP/IP) then there is no such layer.

Re:lots of people using wifi?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wasting your time. He's just a troll.

Re:lots of people using wifi?

[mfnickster]

> You're wasting your time. He's just a troll.

Ah, thanks. But I'm reading Slashdot - I was wasting time already! :)

A fire technology report

[geekoid]

Studies have shown Uk's fire is as hot as Ug's fire.

Back to you, Urg.

As a IT professional, I would like to remind you

[geekoid]

to back up any unique data right now and prepare it for transport.

That is all.
Good luck.

The ARRL should be proud.

[ucla74]

That's the American Radio Relay League, or your neighborhood ham radio operator. This is the function hams used to do (and I'm sure, still do--but increasingly, I'm sure their turf is being taken over by wi-fi). The Web and the 'Net are good for more than just free pr0n and Facebook.

Are you sure?

[geekoid]

subsume

verb
1. contain or include; "This new system subsumes the old one"

While not normal usage, it is technically correct, and technically correct is the best kind of correct.

Re:Are you sure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying the traffic "contains or includes" the cell network? That sounds exactly backwards to me.

A better word might have been: overwhelmed, flooded, jammed, glutted, dominated, deluged, overburdened, clogged, fully engaged, absorbed, saturated.

Oh! I know. How about busy?

San Diego's www.cbs8.com website is great

[InsMonkey]

The http://cbs8.com/ website is an excellent example of what a proper news site should look like during an emergency. It is the commercial site for a local San Diego news affiliate, yet it has been redone as a list of facts and links with a minimum of images, flash, and absolutely NO ads. The Union Tribune's signonsandiego is a steamy pile of 5h1t compared to this.

Another great example of responsible reporting is being demonstrated by the commercial rock radio station 94.9. The local public radio station KPBS had their transmitter damaged during the fire so 94.9 is airing the public radio broadcasts on their frequency! This is shocking considering that this is a corporate radio station.

Re:San Diego's www.cbs8.com website is great

[gyrogeerloose]

The http://cbs8.com/ website is an excellent example of what a proper news site should look like during an emergency.

Yeah, excellent, thanks for the heads-up. And I agree with you completely about the U-T site. Not only is the information not up to date, it took me four tries before I could get connected.

Interesting deal with KPBS, too. I was frustrated by not having it available until my wife discovered it on 94.9 accidentally.

Wierdest Refugees Ever

[stacey7165]

I admit it, I am a NorCal girl. But I happen to be down in Orange County at a meeting this week right in the middle of these fires. I am staying at the St. Regis in Laguna Niguel, which for those that don't know the area - is a really fancy $500/night style hotel. It is also a refugee shelter this week. The hotel has filled up this week with people trucking in their entire wardrobes, kids, dogs and I assume some laptops to this hotel.

Now, I have been through Cambodia, Uganda, and Kenya and seen real refugees living in camps. I never expected to think of this as one. The fires are real, the entire region smells like a campfire, and I sincerely feel sorry for the people that have lost their homes. But it is very surreal to think of people retreating en masse to a $500/night spa as a fire shelter. Something about that idea just makes me realize I probably don't belong in Southern California.

Also, while I am at it... I am actually attending a meeting at the Ritz-Carleton, which sold out of the room block before we reserved our rooms, so we're at the St. Regis. We were assured that this was across the street, and no problem. What I forgot to consider is that across the street in LA means driving. The "street" is PCH (Pacific Coast Highway). There are 4 lights between the hotels, and about 2 miles. It's not the same definition of across the street here as it is where I live in San Francisco. It is lovely though, and the drive is pleasant enough. Just a surreal part of the world. I am looking forward to going home tomorrow though!

-Stacey Schneider http//www.hyperic.com/

Re:Wierdest Refugees Ever

[geekoid]

I am from So. Cal, and I assure you you were lied to.
No one I know from there would consider that 'across the street'.

Also, I doubt the refugee will be paying 500 dollars a night when all is said and done. Any port in a storm.
What do you want them to do, sleep on the beach?

Finally:
"A Convention is where they send people when the people that produce need some quite time."

heh.

Compare this to Katrina

[kaos07]

So we have a slightly worse natural disaster in New Orleans and people barely have enough food, water or shelter. However in California one of the top priorities was internet access? I don't really understand that.

Re:Compare this to Katrina

[tknd]

A number of things make this event really different from the katrina event. I'd say, everything combined has made this disaster go that much smoother.

People in San Diego have been very cooperative. The worst crime incident so far is a couple of teenagers "looting" for alcohol. Every report from Qualcomm stadium has been positive: donations of food and supplies were excessive that they have to tell people to stop donating. Plenty of shelters have been opened. Even pets are being spoiled rotten.

Part of the reason may be that most people are fairly well off meaning middle to middle-upper class and the general feel of San Diegans is "chill". It matches the typical weather patterns where people start complaining when the temperature gets too cold for tshirts and shorts. Another major factor is that San Diego has already been through another major fire disaster in 2003 called the Cedar Fire. Because of that event, the county was much better prepared to deal with a major fire disaster. All agencies have been communicating incredibly well, even to the degree that military support and even Mexican support is now integrated into the effort. There was footage today of military aircraft outfitted with water buckets to do water drops. The fire chief went on local TV and announced that they are getting additional help from Mexican fire engines.

Major changes to emergency procedures/technology such as reverse 911 has made communication with residents and coordination of evacuations much smoother. We received the reverse 911 call on our answering machine and the message clearly stated when the mandatory evacuation was in place and where residents should evacuate to. These calls are sent out well ahead and cover very large areas. If this happens in the future, I think most people will have well over an hour to pack their cars before they absolutely need to evacuate. Nursing homes and hospitals have also had plenty of time and cooperation with local officials to evacuate. The only people in immediate danger were those who refused to leave their homes until the very end. There have been a few cases of those, however, I think because those people actually wanted to stay, it kept many of the bad apples at home doing stupid things rather than causing problems in the shelters.

Another thing to be aware of is the fires only affect one area at a time and it is easy to see if you're affected. That is unlike a hurricane where entire large cities are affected all at once. The worst that happen in San Diego is one community gets evacuated to an evacuation center, and the next day that evacuation center has to evacuate even further. The fires move slow enough that people have enough time to figure out where to go next. Many people simply went over to a friend in another part of the county or booked a hotel 20 to 30 minutes away.

While there was plenty of time to evacuate, there is not plenty of time to move furniture or load your truck up with big objects. There is enough time to quickly prepare enough for a one week vacation, but you are still forced to look at all of your belongings and pick and choose between them. Some people had more time than others, but most people had enough time to think about getting the important papers, packing up some clothes, and picking a few important or favorite things. Many people also had enough time to move the cars out of garages and out to the street so they wouldn't burn if the house did.

The worst part of the entire disaster is knowing whether or not your place burned down. Watching the local news is like an evil lottery. If you win that lottery, you'll have the comfort in knowing your place burned to the ground, however, if you don't see your place, you're still in the dark and playing an evil game. Either way, you don't want to play or win the game. There's plenty of footage where a street will show a perfectly untouched house, but the two houses on both sides of it are completely gone.

Re:Compare this to Katrina

[kaos07]

That's exactly my point. Taking away the human response we still have two large natural disasters impacting hundreds of thousands of people and homes. But as you pointed out this one was handled much more effectively, people are donating time and money to help each other out and looting has been restricted and back to the point of the article they even have wireless internet. Something 'geekoid' missed was the point. That is, even if it's not a top priority and the fact that evacuees have shelter and food automatically makes it comparable to Katrina; where they DIDN'T have adequate shelter, or food, or water, or protection, or the net. What I was actually asking was WHY was the response to the Californian bushfires (Where so far only 2 people have died) so much more immediate and well planned out than to Katrina?

The winds out there turn "fire" into "blowtorch"

[CFD339]

I am a firefighter, though not in that part of the country. I can tell you that in that kind of wind, stopping any fire in even a single home once the wind can get in (windows broken, etc.) is going to be extremely difficult.

Embers larger than your hand can travel hundreds or even thousands of feet in that kind of wind and still be viable. These land on grasses and structures that have been dried over months then punished for days with these 90 degree, single digit humidity level winds. The winds are like a blow drier pointed at you face, on medium setting...for days.

In the great Chicago fire, people fled across the river -- and embers were able to cross that space to ignite structures on the other side. Not just embers, either. The fires create their own weather, creating vortexes that look like tornados hundreds of feet high. Pretty scary stuff. You're not going to slow it down with a garden hose on your roof, and you're not going to put it out with a fire truck and a couple of hand lines.

Easy

[geekoid]

You're an idiot.

Clearly it is not top priority. He has food, shelter, and a easy way to communicate with people outside the disaster area.
Ask anyone who has been through a disaster if they would appreciate contacting people. I'd wager they would say yes.

Another advantage is that it can be used to 'escape' for a little while. As opposed to staring at the wall for hours on end.

The answer to your question is:

[geekoid]

The vacuous space between the original posters ears.

Re:The winds out there turn "fire" into "blowtorch

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT UP

sightly worse? say what?

[skeeterbug]

slightly worse? what are you smoking? look, i live in san diego. my home was very close to a mandatory evacuation zone - and darn close to a big canyon full of flammable crap. we were one flying ember away from high risk of our house being burned down. you'd think i'd be partial to hyping up this tragedy but, truth be told, katrina was markedly worse than this. it happened almost all at once and much of the city was put under water (think 100,000s of homes damaged, not 1000 burned down). the first part was critical since they didn't have time to think and plan. San Diego did. also, most folks in the shelters believe their homes are fine and most folks are right. in new orleans, EVERYONE knew their home was jacked. look, these fires a re big deal, but that is no reason to kick sand in the face of new orleans.

Re:sightly worse? say what?

[kaos07]

Dude, what? I was coming from completely the other direction.

Man...

[John Pfeiffer]

Whole damn country's coming apart at the seams. California is burning, New Orleans is sinking...again... I spent Monday night in a Red Cross shelter, and I live on the EAST coast. (Story if anyone's interested.)

I seldom say anything nice, or anything one would repeat in polite company, but my heart goes out to the folks in California. (And not just my numerous friends and acquaintances who live in Socal) Worrying about my apartment being destroyed in a massive explosion and/or fire while I was two miles away with little more than the clothes on my back was one of the most painful and trying experience I have ever had, I can't begin to imagine the plight of those who have lost their homes.

Almost all of the news coverage we saw on the TV in the shelter was on California... Some of what I saw indeed looked like hell on Earth.

It jumped the freeways

[Anonymous Coward]

5 lanes each way. Firebreaks in these winds aren't going to work.

Registering Cell Phones for Reverse 911

[IvyKing]

The city of San Diego is in the process of setting up a website for registering cell phones and e-maill for reverse 911 messages. The County of San Diego is considering a similar move.

All the reports I've heard so far indicate that the Reverse 911 system worked very well during the fires - there were only a few minor glitches, which is to be expected.