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Picture Passwords More Secure than Text

Hugh Pickens writes "People possess a remarkable ability for recalling pictures and researchers at Newcastle University are exploiting this characteristic to create graphical passwords that they say are a thousand times more secure than ordinary textual passwords. With Draw a Secret (DAS) technology, users draw an image over a background, which is then encoded as an ordered sequence of cells. The software recalls the strokes, along with the number of times the pen is lifted. If a person chooses a flower background and then draws a butterfly as their secret password image onto it, they have to remember where they began on the grid and the order of their pen strokes. The "passpicture" is recognized as identical if the encoding is the same, not the drawing itself, which allows for some margin of error as the drawing does not have to be re-created exactly. The software has been initially designed for handheld devices such as iPhones, Blackberry and Smartphone, but could soon be expanded to other areas. "The most exciting feature is that a simple enhancement simultaneously provides significantly enhanced usability and security," says computer scientist Jeff Yan."

261 comments

  1. Meh. by mingot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd have to train myself to remember the strokes to draw something with the same movements and pen lifts. Sounds like a pain in the nuts to me.

    1. Re:Meh. by king-manic · · Score: 1

      I'd have to train myself to remember the strokes to draw something with the same movements and pen lifts. Sounds like a pain in the nuts to me. Unless you're Chinese, in which case the swollen knuckles you still have (from being swatted with a chopstick when you learned to write Chinese) will be ample reminder of how to remember stroke order.
      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    2. Re:Meh. by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the world of pattern classification. I do not think all systems have to be implemented in the way you imply.

    3. Re:Meh. by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Clarification: GP statement is correct in terms of this particular implementation. I was just pointing out that although I agree it wont work and it's silly to think that people draw the same strokes every time, there are other ways to do this.

    4. Re:Meh. by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      Yeah right. You'd just have to draw ascii goatse and it'd be more secure than your current password.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    5. Re:Meh. by wish+bot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ordinary people have been doing this for hundreds of years. It's called a SIGNATURE.

      --
      lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
    6. Re:Meh. by Joe+U · · Score: 1

      As long as you don't draw the non-ascii version, it's OK.

    7. Re:Meh. by megaditto · · Score: 1

      Won't they all have the exactly same drawing order? So much for a unique, hard to replicate password.

      But then again, who would ever need to have a strong password in China?

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    8. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, also thousands of times more difficult to remember.

      Back to the drawing board guys...

    9. Re:Meh. by B3ryllium · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sounds like a pain in the nuts to me.

      You're doing it wrong.

    10. Re:Meh. by X0563511 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmm, thats an idea. You COULD draw a picture, but if you "sign" a password, that only adds to the complexity of what an intruder must duplicate.

      After a long time doing it, you would get damn fast at it too.

      One problem however is disability. If I had a horrible accident and became a quadrapole, I could still recite my password to someone if need be... good luck doing that with this kind of authentication.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    11. Re:Meh. by rossdee · · Score: 2, Informative

      "If I had a horrible accident and became a quadrapole, I could still recite my password to someone if need be... good luck doing that with this kind of authentication."

      I think you mean quadraplegic. According to Wikipedia:

      A quadrupole is one of a sequence of configurations of electric charge or gravitational mass that can exist in ideal form, but it is usually just part of a multipole expansion of a more complex structure reflecting various orders of complexity.

    12. Re:Meh. by heinousjay · · Score: 5, Funny

      That doesn't really change the original statement. It would indeed be a horrific accident that turned him into a quadrupole, and it would probably be hard to draw stuff afterwards.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    13. Re:Meh. by ILuvRamen · · Score: 5, Funny

      I could get that dolphin that they taught to paint (look it up) to sign my signature on a check and the bank would still take it. It doesn't even have to be words or letters. As long as someone scribbled my signature, they're not going to reject it so the check's good. Signatures aren't quite the same thing.
      Now my 2 cents, I just design security systems that are so freaky and confusing that hackers just give up because it's too odd. The hacker or otherwise bad person just gives up and is like "wtf is it, broke or just haunted?" If someone made a software suite where you can design your own ridiculous security system with basically unlimited possibilities of whatever the user can dream up, people would have some pretty ridiculous security! Everyone here always complains about security through obscurity. You try opening a ridiculously large-bit-encryption archive file of mine when at the "enter the password" screen, you have to wave the cursor over the password field then type submit in it and click the exit button which reveals a crossword puzzle with only one valid word in it but you have to in fact click the squares so the highlighted letters form a smiley face then within 3 seconds, click on the password field then press tab three times which is the only wat to get you to the now unlocked, real invisible password entry box and type your password in stutter type (doubles of each letter followed by a backspace) and then press the red X in the top right to submit it and open the archive. You aren't getting into that archive! That's so screwy, someone would give up trying to figure out what the hell was going on in minutes. And good luck brute forcing it cuz that'll take all the computers on earth a couple hundred trillion years. Plus it's not that hard of a process to remember when you really think about it. It'd take someone who memorized it like 15 seconds tops to do it all and even if someone watched it, they'd have trouble remembering it or understanding it. They'd have to have a camera recording your keyboard and mouse synchronized with another camera watching the screen and also be able to guess the time requirements. Do all that with an incrementing password (like fishfish2 then next time it's fishfish3) at the end of it and they'd barely be able to solve it if you told them every step. Waaaaaaay better and more secure than drawing a picture on a low res grid.

      --
      Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    14. Re:Meh. by penix1 · · Score: 1
      Well, the TFS starts off with a false premise...

      People possess a remarkable ability for recalling pictures


      They are basically talking about eyewitness identification. That has already been debunked as the most unreliable source for anything. There are too many variables involved. Everything from remembering what image you used to repeating that image consistently over time is under fire. This just won't work for so many reasons...
      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    15. Re:Meh. by BungaDunga · · Score: 1

      I'm sure such wacky security systems are useful, but how many people would be willing to go through that to sign into their Hotmail account? Not a heck of a lot.

    16. Re:Meh. by MichailS · · Score: 1

      Sounds no harder than signing with your name.

    17. Re:Meh. by Web+Goddess · · Score: 3, Funny

      That sounds like a great password for a Fortress of Solitude, but probably not feasible for mere mortals. I can't decide if you are brilliant or insane.

    18. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, there are two characters, 0x0d and 0x0a, which could have been used to make your post somewhat more readable. The content was worth reading, but some newlines would be nice.

    19. Re:Meh. by tsjaikdus · · Score: 1

      My bank lets me change my password 3 times a month. Then if I forget it they create a new password that I have to collect (personally) in an other city 200 miles away. Now, that's secure, because after a few times you just don't bother anymore to use your internet account at all.

    20. Re:Meh. by tepples · · Score: 1

      You know, there are two characters, 0x0d and 0x0a, which could have been used to make your post somewhat more readable. HTML normalizes whitespace. A paragraph element (<p>) would have worked better.
    21. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice! Cool idea to make systems like that. They'll be very popular among paranoid schizophrenics. But normal people would just say "lt me keep using my very secure pen0r1 plz"

    22. Re:Meh. by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      I think the premise is fine if referring to SIMPLE pictures. As in 1st grade level drawings of common objects. That's what is expected for these password pictures (not that I think it's the best idea). I think most people would recognize a drawing of something as long as that drawing consisted of simple lines and probably no more than 10 to 15 strokes (besides, who wants to have to reproduce a Picasso just to log in). For example, the butterfly I drew took 10 lines (circle, oval, wavy wing x2, antenna x2, wing decor x4). And it is very likely that someone would draw those in roughly that same order.

      Of course, this is why I don't think picture (pictogram might be a better word choice) passwords would work too well. People would need to see what they are drawing in order to complete the picture, so shoulder surfing would be a big problem. And people tend to draw simple pictures in the same sequence. So, if I remember "butterfly sitting on the flower with wings open going left", I can probably reproduce the image you drew close enough to "crack" your password.

      Layne

    23. Re:Meh. by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      For the record, *some* banks won't take just any signature. My mom's bank calls her when she starts using a different pen, to make sure it's her. (Yes, they're small and she's been with them for 50 years.)

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    24. Re:Meh. by damaki · · Score: 1

      Only one problem : I cannot draw two identical signatures. Sure the general style matches, but it's absolutely different. I imagine I am not the only one.
      I can perfectly picture it : "Cannot log in, not matching signature".

      --
      Stupidity is the root of all evil.
    25. Re:Meh. by halcyon1234 · · Score: 1
      The problem is, nothing is 100% secure or reliable.

      Thumbprint - Can be copied, thumbs can go missing, gloves Voice print - Can be recorded, stress is a factor, mute people DNA (baby, that spells DNA) - Can be easily stolen, may be painful for everyday use, hard to match quickly Drawing - Can be shoulder surfed, hard to reproduce accurately, hands go missing, blind people One-time passwords - Requires users to remember to increment their password, algorithm must be simple for user's sake (making it easy to compromise for hacker's benefit) Dongles - Can be stolen or lost Anything overly complex - Password owner can fuck it up and lock themselves out.

      Any sort of lock that would be at home in a D&D game is probably inappropriate.

    26. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's nice. My bank doesnt let me change my password, and my username is the account number on my checks.

    27. Re:Meh. by Tango42 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm the same. I imagine a good forger would do a far better job of replicating my signature than me. Before I had an ATM card and had to sign a withdrawal slip whenever I needed cash, I often had to give my date of birth (as if that's a secret...) because my signature didn't match. I'm glad the UK has switched to chip and pin for credit/debit card transactions...

    28. Re:Meh. by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 1

      I am assuming your archive is encrypted using standard encryption algorithms, and you didn't invent your own (if you did, it would almost certainly be easily crackable by any half-baked cryptanalyst - it's very, very hard getting encryption algorithms right).

      So the limiting factor in accessing your material is not your wierd software, but rather the size and strength of the key used to the encrypt the archive. You may have a 1024 bit size key, but you are generating that key by entering a password, so the true strength is limited by the entropy in your typical password. You probably only use combinations of alphanumerics, and probably combined in wordy-ways, not completely randomly. The strength of keys generated this way is much, much, much lower than using the entire 1024 bit keyspace.

      All your extra "security" has done is make it hard to find the password screen, which I don't need anyway - I'll just use the industry standard decrypting algorithms for the encryption you're using, with some kind of dictionary attack to try to find the key.

      I note at the end you say the password could change on each attempt. I presume you don't re-encrypt all the data each time - in which case this would mean that the password is only being used as access control to the real key, which must be stored somewhere. In that case its even easier - I'll just scan your software for high entropy strings (or disassemble your software to find out how you are hiding the key). Again, I will ignore your attempts to hide the "enter your password" GUI - I don't need it - I will just proceed directly to decrypting the archive using standard tools once I've grabbed the key.

      You also seem to be confusing the security of web-based authentication systems with that of locally encrypted. files. Completely different kinds of security and threats. The bottom line is that security by obscurity really doesn't work very well (and sometimes makes you less secure).

    29. Re:Meh. by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Er, yes. In my attempt at creating a word, I merely duplicated an existing one. You got my point, however.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    30. Re:Meh. by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      i could put a bank vault door on the front of my house, but if the windows only have regular locks, the only person who'll be trying to get in that way is me.

    31. Re:Meh. by drouse · · Score: 1

      I did similar stuff in High School as well, so I feel bad raining on your parade -- but "freaky and confusing" aren't good bullet points for security software. Most good security software keeps working when everyone knows the algorithm, in fact a lot of people won't trust encryption systems unless the algorithm is public. The reason people complain about security through obscurity is that it usualy fails, things built in secret by a few people contain flaws because the software isn't peer reviewed.

      For example, one thing to remember is that everything from mouse waving to clicking to keyboarding is just a stream of bytes. If you've built your security program correctly, all you have is a very long key that is just as vulnerable to mouse and key capture as a short key. If you've built the program incorrectly, then it should be fairly trivial to bypass everything but the "real invisible password entry box" (which, again, is just a stream of bytes on your USB cable), and if you've done a really bad job, then dissasembling the application will give up the key itself.

      Besides that, what happens to the archive once you open it? If the file is resident in RAM or in a temp file somewhere, then a bad acting application could access it then.

      And -- if you have enough physical security to keep people from installing capture utilities on your machine, then you have enough security to just need a password, and the "freaky" steps are a waste of time.

      That said, I'm sure your porn collection or whatever is safe.

      --
      -- I browse at +5 with stripped sigs ... Ha! Ha!
  2. Prior Art by mlwmohawk · · Score: 2, Informative

    The movie "Safe House" with Patrick Stewart had something similar.

    1. Re:Prior Art by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      It had to be hard on you to admit knowledge of that. :) Just havin fun.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    2. Re:Prior Art by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      What hard? I have it on DVD. What's not to like?

    3. Re:Prior Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loading...

    4. Re:Prior Art by somersault · · Score: 1

      Well, apparently Patrick Stewart's naked butt is on there.. I don't really need to see that :o and if I did I'd just draw a line down his head.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  3. I've heard this before by ShawnCplus · · Score: 5, Funny
    From Article:

    graphical passwords that they say are a thousand times more secure than ordinary textual passwords. Someone a long time ago:

    A picture is worth a thousand words
    --
    Excuse me while I gather the virgin sacrifice and assemble the pentagram required to solve your problem
    1. Re:I've heard this before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A thousand words? That's only 2000 bytes! What image-format was he using?

    2. Re:I've heard this before by Skrynkelberg · · Score: 1

      It's just a really small picture.

    3. Re:I've heard this before by halcyon1234 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but is a picture worth a seven hundred words, one hundred upper case words, one hundred numbers, and one hundred special characters?

  4. I don't belive it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't belive it. Most of the pictures can only be drawn in a order, which everybody will use, so it isn't safe. Also, if the begining cell is part of the pass, you have to always start exactly on the same place, which is harder than a pass.

    And.... why is it safer? a pass with chars a-zA-Z0-9 has 36^lenght combinations... randomly distributed...

  5. Why am I having nightmares... by cliveholloway · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...about drawing penises on goatse photographs?

    That would be one way to keep things secure though - it's hard for someone to guess your pass picture if they can't bring themselves to look at the background... :)

    --
    -- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
    1. Re:Why am I having nightmares... by doyoulikeworms · · Score: 1

      Drawing the penis on? Is that like "pin the penis on the goatse"?

    2. Re:Why am I having nightmares... by logixoul · · Score: 1

      Gotta love Slashdot...

    3. Re:Why am I having nightmares... by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      Dude.....that's brilliant.....think I can start selling those on ThinkGeek?

      1. Make poster of Goatse.
      2. Make cut outs of phallic images.
      3. Package together and sell on ThinkGeek
      4. PROFIT!

  6. I dont think so by Pazy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I doubt this will really work, most people when they draw and write so it slightly diffrent each time. They may have to sit down and aim exactly and prepare which will take too much effort for most people. I doubt this will take off its the old security vs convenience. At this point ill take the convenience of a text password.

    1. Re:I dont think so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That's probably the number one question that everyone asks. I asked it too. From the paragraph above,

      The "passpicture" is recognized as identical if the encoding is the same, not the drawing itself, which allows for some margin of error as the drawing does not have to be re-created exactly.
    2. Re:I dont think so by schmiddy · · Score: 1

      Actually, somewhat counter intuitively, ballistic motions such as scribbling a signature or swinging a baseball bat are actually more accurate when you perform it quickly and without hesitation (because they're ingrained in muscle memory). I'm not sure if the picture drawing described in TFA would qualify, as it would take a great number of repetitions (1,000+ perhaps) to get ingrained in one's muscle memory.

      --
      http://cltracker.net -- powerful craigslist multi-city search
    3. Re:I dont think so by FleaPlus · · Score: 1

      I doubt this will really work, most people when they draw and write so it slightly diffrent each time.

      If I were implementing it, I would have a person actually draw several copies of the same thing in a row, so that it can learn the likely sources of variability in that person's drawing. It could maybe even learn this a little bit each time the person logs in, so it would be able to adapt as that person's drawing style slowly changes. Any overly abrupt change would be a failed login, and trigger the need for another form of authentication.

    4. Re:I dont think so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends what features the software looks at. The article goes on about this and the techniques appear to be pretty similar to those used by experts to examine forged signatures.

      Signatures are always slightly different every time, but it's still pretty easy to tell when a signature is a forgery or not, even when the forger has practiced it over and over.

    5. Re:I dont think so by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      Don't current password systems already have this problem?

      Here's basically how it works:
      Type in password.
      System computes a HASH.
      System compares computed hash to stored hash.
      If the hashes match, access is granted.

      Now, the likelihood of the hashes matching is really small (at least with the better algorithms), but it is theoretically possible for there to be more than one password that generates the same hash.

      Layne

  7. Sounds hard by dontthink · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't even consistently write my signature, let alone some arbitrary picture.

    1. Re:Sounds hard by webmaster404 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention how easy it would be to make a program to guess it, as most people wouldn't be able to totally reproduce it fully all the time, that means more tries it would allow. Plus, what if theres a flaw in Flash/AJAX/JavaScript/Canvas or whatever your drawing in? At least HTTPS is hard to break and HTML is rather secure.

      --
      There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
    2. Re:Sounds hard by Feanturi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have the same problem with my signature. At one time, it used to be very consistant, and quite legible. Enough people remarked that it looked just like regular handwriting, so I started doing it much more quickly and carelessly since that appears to be the normal way of doing a signature. Now, no matter how I try, I can't make it quite the same way twice, except maybe the capitals. I generally don't get all the letters into the last name either, and which ones make it in changes from one attempt to the next.

    3. Re:Sounds hard by witekr · · Score: 1

      Flash (or java/etc) in this situation is only an interface, just like HTML is usually used as the interface to a more complex backend system.

      A bug in the interface shouldn't be -any- cause for security concern, if the web application is programmed by anyone with the slightest clue about how web apps work. The flash or embedded drawing tool would simply convert the data it gathered about the drawn picture into some kind of encoded string or variables and then pass that to the server. It is a major mistake to include any critical security checks other than simple guidelines (ie, max length of text inputs in HTML forms, etc) in the client side... a mistake which will usually result in an easy hack for anyone who bothers to take a peek.

    4. Re:Sounds hard by chathan · · Score: 1

      That is your "one" signature. I am trying to remember my 50+ passwords that i just now converted to drawings. I never been more convinced that my vocabulary of drawing pictures were much stronger than the English phrases I have learned.

    5. Re:Sounds hard by OutOfMyTree · · Score: 1

      Yep, this seems a key problem. This might work for a password I use every day but I have loads of other passwords of varying levels of security, some of which I use only every 6 months or so. The few that I have to write down, I can easily encode by simple text ciphering and hiding techniques -- how is someone going to find and crack them amongst the mess of text I normally carry? My collection of drawings labelled with the key parameters is likely to be much more useful to an evil-doer, even with some obfuscation.

    6. Re:Sounds hard by Non-Huffable+Kitten · · Score: 1

      Same here. I wonder if there is some weird biochemical correlation to nerdity here (no offense, I use that as a compliment :))

      --
      Medium cat is MEDIUM.
    7. Re:Sounds hard by Tiado · · Score: 1
      That would be my concern as well, when it comes to my signature, no two signatures are ever exactly alike, I always mess up somewhere along the way. I can imagine myself being locked out because I can't get my picture right.

      However, if the picture password system is programmed to allow for slight deviations from the original, then maybe I won't have to be an accomplished artist to be able to correctly draw my passpic.

      I think, for now, I'll stick with text passwords, they may be weaker, but I can remember patterns on the keyboard better than remember how I drew something.

  8. That's a terrible idea! by dkf · · Score: 1

    I can't draw...

    --
    "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    1. Re:That's a terrible idea! by duggi · · Score: 1

      Actually, as mentioned in the prev. posts, you will be well off if you just write your name on it. All the letters are just symbols, hence drawings of one form or another. It might be harder to break too, especially, if what you draw is not visible to you either, you just make a random motion(to others, while spelling your name in a cursive handwriting), and you just log-on. Quite good I say. As somebody said, there is no absolute security, but only incremental developments to existing ones. This one , has my vote. It is better.

      --
      http://monkeynesianeconomics.blogspot.com/
  9. Normal signature by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A normal signature is a picture drawn in a certain fashion with a specific flow and strokes.
    We have had signature recognition for a while.
    Whats new?

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:Normal signature by schmiddy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah.. different methods of signature recognition have been around for quite some time, and never really caught on. A friend just did his senior undergrad thesis on a survey of techniques for signature detection, and it's actually a pretty informative read. Long story short.. even the advanced models have too high false-positive rates, especially from skilled forgers who have time to practice copying your signature at home, or even casual over-the-shoulder copying.

      The only real future use of this I see is as one component in a highly secure, long-term, yet convenient, authentication mechanism.. perhaps for accessing a lockbox at a bank, something you'd need to have around for many years without remembering and changing a password. And even then, they'd have to additionally use at least "something you know" (name,SSN, etc that you won't forget) and possibly another "something you have" (fingerprint reading, perhaps) in order to get the false positive and false negative rates acceptably low.

      --
      http://cltracker.net -- powerful craigslist multi-city search
    2. Re:Normal signature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is that used, pray tell?

      There's plenty of POS cardreaders performing signature _capture_. No recognition being used at all.

      I for one try to give them a different scribble everytime as there are no requirements in place to protect your scanned signature.

    3. Re:Normal signature by fastest+fascist · · Score: 1

      And that is why you use a picture you don't let anyone else in on, not your signature.

    4. Re:Normal signature by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Fingerprint reading isn't "something you have" it's "something you are". A key is something you have.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    5. Re:Normal signature by FleaPlus · · Score: 1

      A normal signature is a picture drawn in a certain fashion with a specific flow and strokes.
      We have had signature recognition for a while.
      Whats new?


      Usually a person only has a single signature that they keep throughout their lives, whereas in this scheme it seems that a person can have several drawings. That signature can be found on any of the countless documents you've signed throughout your life. Also, if you see what a person's signature looks like it's somewhat straightforward to determine how to forge it, whereas with the proposed system there are many possible ways in which a particular picture could be drawn, so that you'd likely need to have a video recording to be able to perform a forgery.

    6. Re:Normal signature by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      Whats new?

      Four simple words: "on the internet".

      (I estimate 60% or responses will reference my counting ability.)

    7. Re:Normal signature by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      I think the question is more what's the technological innovation. The slashdot crowd aren't really much for innovative uses of existing processes as you'll see if you take a look at any patent conversation. So since there isn't any technical difference between matching a signature and matching a picture then it's not really technologically new and therefor uninteresting.

    8. Re:Normal signature by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      Whats new?

      Now instead of writing your name (boring) you can have flowers and bumblebees and ponies instead!
      The main problem is waiting behind old people in line for the ATM. They mess up buttons and now you ask them to draw!
      --
      Balderdash!
    9. Re:Normal signature by Bee1zebub · · Score: 1

      No, it's something you have. Didn't you see the Mythbusters episode where they were breaking into fingerprint locks, adn found that ballistics gel moistened with water worked fine, and for one lock, a simple photocopy of the fingerprint was enough. all you need is access to their fingerprint, which would be fairly easy.

    10. Re:Normal signature by F4_W_weasel · · Score: 1

      A normal signature is a picture drawn in a certain fashion with a specific flow and strokes. We have had signature recognition for a while. Whats new?
      -- Yes I make mistakes. Don't we all?

      very funny your comment and now take a second look at your signature....

    11. Re:Normal signature by tepples · · Score: 1

      But how can fingerprints be reissued once they are compromised this way?

  10. Easier in Asia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You say that, but it's EXACTLY what you have to do to learn kanji or kana... or hanzi, for the Chinese.

    That's right, there's a proper way to write every one of the thousands of characters, right down to stroke order and placement.

    1. Re:Easier in Asia... by mingot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll bet they'll just pick a character instead of drawing a picture.

    2. Re:Easier in Asia... by Nexx · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not only that, but people who learn it the "wrong" way quite often write it the wrong way throughout their lives. I experience this a lot with my parents -- the stroke order they learned is different from the stroke order I learned, so anytime I watch them write, it looks a bit odd.

    3. Re:Easier in Asia... by hansamurai · · Score: 1

      I learned to write a few of my hiragana and katakana characters in the wrong stroke order, and native readers could tell just by glancing at my handwriting that I was doing it wrong. I concentrated much harder on this aspect when I was learning kanji, but I'm sure I still do many of them wrong.

    4. Re:Easier in Asia... by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      the stroke order they learned is different from the stroke order I learned, so anytime I watch them write, it looks a bit odd.

      You mean, you look more elitist?

    5. Re:Easier in Asia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll remember that the next time I'm trying to learn any of those....

      Theres something funny about comparing asian written languages with an authentication dialog that's supposed to be highly complicated. I hope you aren't implying that this pictopassword stuff is therefore easy because those languages require as much skill...

    6. Re:Easier in Asia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you believe I've been criticized for writing my letter "O"'s backwards in English. Apparently it's not "proper" to write them clockwise from the top in any form of cursive or something.

    7. Re:Easier in Asia... by ThePengwin · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sounds like you were being harassed by the handwriting nazis!

    8. Re:Easier in Asia... by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      True, but perhaps that's one of the many reasons I'm not learning Japanese or Chinese.

      Also, I wonder what happens if you just really suck at drawing. And how long would it take to draw a picture? I don't want to spend 5 minutes recreating butterflies every time I lock my computer because I stepped away to get some water.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    9. Re:Easier in Asia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL off topic:

      I have this problem with Brain Age. When I need to write a four on the screen I draw the vertical line first than the angled line and it would constantly read it as a seven. I later learned that it was looking for the angled like first, then the vertical line.

    10. Re:Easier in Asia... by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sounds like a pain in the nuts to me.

      You say that, but it's EXACTLY what you have to do to learn kanji or kana... or hanzi, for the Chinese. Therefore, learning Chinese or Japanese is a pain in the nuts. Nothing to see here.
      --
      My first program:

      Hell Segmentation fault

    11. Re:Easier in Asia... by RulerOf · · Score: 1

      I've been going the same thing for a long time, in English. I start my captal G's in the center and work my way out, I write lowercase L's from the bottom of the line up. I think there are a couple others that I do that are very abnormal, but it's just more natural for me to do so. Over the last few years, I've been changing the way I write my G's after my father pointed out to me that it was weird the way I wrote them... I had always thought it was so difficult to pen them down in a readable fashion!

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    12. Re:Easier in Asia... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Or if you have some wrist issues with repetitive stress injuries: On bad days, your login would be unusable.

      Actually, that might be a good thing.

    13. Re:Easier in Asia... by teslar · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but there are rules to character formation - it's not like you have to remember every stroke for every character in order. IIRC, the general order of construction (at least with the traditional Chinese chars) is from top left to bottom right.

      But that is interesting in itself - I would assume that most people, consciously or unconsciously, apply similar rules when they draw, i.e. where to start and where to stop. Wouldn't this mean potential hackers would at least have a better starting point at cracking this graphical password than with a normal one?

      Also, one of the strengths of traditional passwords is that you can actually generate crazy random passwords which are still easy to remember. With a picture, I would assume that becomes more unlikely, so, in combination with the above, dictionary attacks should become easier.

      Finally, since not the picture itself is stored but rather the sequence of strokes and the number of times the pen is lifted, I wonder how large that encoding is? Can't it simply be brute-forced directly? I guess it depends on how strokes are encoded - if it's angle and length as well as starting point it may be difficult to brute-force, but since the system has to account for variability in the user's drawing, it should be possible to exploit that in brute-force attacks. Whether it's sufficient or not, I don't know.

    14. Re:Easier in Asia... by corifornia2 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm all about security . . . but I'm lazy. So I'd probably just draw characters as well. But I'd draw four of them for security's sake. B==D

    15. Re:Easier in Asia... by dwye · · Score: 1

      > Apparently it's not "proper" to write them clockwise from the top in any form of cursive or something.

      Well, it is slightly more inefficient when you connect to the next character, so you might get more fatigue after you finish copying the entire Bible, or something.

    16. Re:Easier in Asia... by Cornflake917 · · Score: 1

      Let me guess, you were one of the eight percent of teenagers that had that strange disorder.

  11. Re:I don't belive it. by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    You didn't read carefully enough. You draw whatever picture you want. The background image is just to give you a frame of reference so you know where you started.

    It still sounds like a bad idea to me for the second reason you mentioned. I do not see this as being any more secure than enforcing strong passwords. I can see it maybe being useful for touch/stylus devices, but that's a different matter than overall security.

  12. Damnable Security! by roguetrick · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wonder how many users will just end up drawing Stars, Hearts, and Smiley Faces?

    --
    -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    1. Re:Damnable Security! by Enderandrew · · Score: 2

      Exactly what I was thinking.

      I have trouble drawing stick figures.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    2. Re:Damnable Security! by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      How many ways do you suppose you can draw flowers, hearts and smiley faces though? recording where you start, where you end, and the position on the screen, and the size, and the shape...

      It's bound to be more complex than a password the average user can create. And might be less susceptible to keylogger-type software.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    3. Re:Damnable Security! by insertwackynamehere · · Score: 5, Funny

      I smell pictionary attacks!!

      Imagine pictures of common passwords/objects being drawn everywhere on the screen at different rotations and scales in rapid succession.. or just a brute forcer which didn't even make legible images 99% of the time

    4. Re:Damnable Security! by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      I wonder how many users will just end up drawing Stars, Hearts, and Smiley Faces? Depends on how many of them had Lucky Charms for breakfast.
    5. Re:Damnable Security! by JonathanR · · Score: 1

      At least people with poor drawing skills won't be so keen to use a sticky note on their monitor to display their talents.

    6. Re:Damnable Security! by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      Either you are to anal about stroke positions and lenght (and nobody will be able to remember their picture), or most smileys will work as the same.

      Its not a single bit easier to remember "I have to set the eye in cell 12/54, the other one in 33/54. After that the circle should go up to row 10 and down to row 65 , ect..." that to remember a complicated password.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    7. Re:Damnable Security! by MrNougat · · Score: 1

      Or drawing "123456." Or a straight line. Or a dot.

      There are people for whom any requirement to present an identifying mark is too much trouble. Hell, I've heard more than one story about executives who can't be bothered to log into their own computers, and so have their assistants do it for them.

      --
      Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
    8. Re:Damnable Security! by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      I wonder how many users will just end up drawing Stars, Hearts, and Smiley Faces?

      Then we well end up with the draconian rules like passwords are today.

      A "good" password is long, not an easy pattern on a keyboard, uses mixed case with numbers and special characters, and not based on anything else in existence like a name or word.

      For one of these pictionary passwords would have to be "secure" they would have to be something as complex as a Salvador Dali painting.

  13. And "shoulder surfing". by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you have to draw a picture to login, it's going to be very easy for people to see what you're drawing just by being near you.

    With typed passwords that is a lot more difficult.

    1. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by Karl0Erik · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, they could just cover the drawing in asterisks.

      Oh, wait.

    2. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by mstahl · · Score: 1

      Really? I disagree. Though it's easy to watch someone's fingers and see which keys they're hitting, it's far more difficult to watch someone's hand and imagine exactly how they typically draw a password. Though this can't have too much subtlety to it because then no one would ever be able to remember their password exactly enough to reproduce it, it can be fine-grained enough that no one but you can draw your password like you do.

    3. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by megaditto · · Score: 5, Funny

      Draw the goatse man. That'll teach them to spy on you!

      Now if only I could figure out how to paste that troll's ascii in here...

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    4. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by TheGeneration · · Score: 3, Funny

      Okay, so something like 99% of users are going to use happy faces for their drawn password. That'd be so difficult to crack.

      --


      The Generation
      I'd say something witty here, but I'm not that bright.
    5. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by somersault · · Score: 1

      I must be one of the 1%, hadn't thought of that. It sounded more like each person would draw a random shape depending on what the backdrop was.. >_>

      --
      which is totally what she said
    6. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by Jahz · · Score: 1

      Well, it's the same as with signatures. Even if you see somebody sign their signature, it still remains extremely difficult to replicate what they wrote. Handwriting analysis software and forensic handwriting analysts can almost always tell a forgery from the real thing!

      Anyway, the drawing pad would most certainly *not* show the password picture while you're drawing it!! Sheesh! Do you think security researchers are that stupid?

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
    7. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by fredklein · · Score: 2, Interesting

      it's far more difficult to watch someone's hand and imagine exactly how they typically draw a password.

      It's not as difficult as you think. It's a standard magicians trick to secretly watch a persons hand/pen movements and then 'magically' re-create the drawing they made.

    8. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      here's the short version:

      =8{O}8=

    9. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by Lally+Singh · · Score: 1

      Please. You're ignoring the 35% of people (that's 70% of men) who'll just draw a giant cock on the image.

      I mean, that's what I'd do.

      --
      Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
    10. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn, my mod points expired today. That might have been the only time I could mod a goatse post +1 informative.

    11. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by badran · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...And then get the password is too short error...

    12. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by argiedot · · Score: 1

      I think most people would sign. Like their signature. That's the first thing that came to my mind.

    13. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by DarcZide · · Score: 1

      That or a pair of boobs :)

      --
      That was either the start of something bad or the end of something stupid. -Bun Bun
    14. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever tried to copy a friend's drawing? Even just a stickman? You may discover you draw circles in the other direction, or flick your end strokes. Me, I sketch right-handed, so there's a distinct back-forward motion that always tapers down. You'd have to be pretty adept at art to copy even a child's crayon drawing exactly.

      And everyone knows artists are completely honest and gentle folk.

    15. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by blhack · · Score: 1

      Well, i would imagine that the target of technology like this is people who are actually security conscious. If you have set up your system correctly, then the only people who should have access to anything of worth are people who actually need it, and understand how much of a problem it would be if anybody got their password. There is absolutely NO REASON the receptionist needs access to, well, much of anything really; a regular old plain-text password would be just fine for her.

      The people who are there at 2:00am working in the database, and who have complete, unfettered access to EVERYTHING are the ones who would need id mechanisms like smart cards and weird, off-the-wall stuff like this.
      Those are the people who's job depends on the security of the database, they are going to choose something other than a smiley....

      And if they don't I'll be glad to teach them a lesson about passwords ;-)

      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    16. Re:And "shoulder surfing". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oops. I can't really sign my signature the same way twice...
      My hand-eye coordination took a long time to develop, my sister and I were both born with inverted fast vs slow twitch fiber ratios (meaning it's hard to keep a muscle held in the same position), and I'm not a visual person at all... I can only recognize a few of my closest friends when their hairstyle changes, and it took me forever to learn how to plot functions or do any geometry.

      I'll stick to my long sequences of random numbers, letters, punctuation, and mispelled words. At least those are easy to remember! I can recall the most common several dozen that I use with no problem.

  14. 2 characters. by Kaenneth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Or you could add 2 alpha-numeric characters to an existing text password, for more than 1000 times security.

    1. Re:2 characters. by Faylone · · Score: 1

      assuming the system actually cares what the password entered is past the 8th or so character...

    2. Re:2 characters. by Dirtside · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Adding two alphanumeric characters (a-z, A-Z, 0-9, for 62 characters) would increase the keyspace by a lot (a factor of 3,844, to be precise), but it doesn't increase overall security by that much except against brute force attackers. It certainly doesn't make it a thousand times harder to shoulder-surf, or keylog, or social engineer, or...

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    3. Re:2 characters. by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

      That's implied in what he said.

    4. Re:2 characters. by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this picture password doesn't make it that much harder to shoulder-surf, or penlog, or social engineer, or...

      --
      Not a sentence!
    5. Re:2 characters. by QuoteMstr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm a skeptic, but at least it has the social engineering thing going for it.

      "Hey, Susan. I'm Bob from IT. We're doing a company-wide password security survey, and I need to get yours down. Can you let me know what it is?"

      "Well, hi Bob. It's sort of a dopey-looking antelope with horns and big teeth."

      "Ah. Thanks." *click*

    6. Re:2 characters. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but this picture password doesn't make it that much harder to shoulder-surf, or penlog, or social engineer, or...

      Yes it does. It makes all these things at least a bit and often a lot harder.

      Shoulder-surfing with password: remember 8 keystrokes for a few seconds until you can write them down.
      Shoulder-surfing with picture: remember picture and how it was constructed. To write it down you must reproduce the picture with arrows etc. to show the order of drawing.

      Keylog/Penlog: Keylog records 8 keystrokes. Done. Penlog records series of coordinates at sufficient intervals to reconstruct drawing acturately. Coordinates may then need to be scaled etc. for reuse in different context.

      Social engineering: Password: "Mr. X, this is the helpdesk, we need your password for [insert plausible reason]". Mr. X: Password is 'wazzle9'
      Picture: "Mr. X, this is the helpdesk, we need your passpicture for [insert plausible reason]". Mr. X: "Well, it's a picture of a cow with a big head. I has no udders and stubby tail. You start by drawing the ears, which are just triangles really, but with no bases because they form part of the head..." etc. - you get the idea.

    7. Re:2 characters. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >It certainly doesn't make it a thousand times harder to shoulder-surf, or keylog, or social engineer, or...

      An attacker could just substitute a key logger with mouse or screen capturing.

    8. Re:2 characters. by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      Without purposefully trying to do it in the wrong order, draw a simple picture (pictogram). Now have a friend draw basically the same picture (let him look at yours for a few seconds so that he tries to replicate it exactly). Without having seen you draw yours (and assuming you aren't trying to trick him), it is very likely that they two were drawn in the same way.

      Pick the "classic" flower and I'm sure it goes something like this:
      1. Draw the center circle.
      2. Starting at about 1 o'clock, draw loopy petals in a couter-clockwise fashion.
      3. Draw the stem to the ground.
      4. Add a leaf (or leaves) starting at the bottom.
      5. If you add grass, it would be drawn at this point.

      I don't think it would take a lot of remembering to get that down.

      Layne

    9. Re:2 characters. by Dirtside · · Score: 1

      I like the fact that two different people managed to assume that because I corrected someone's misunderstanding of keyspace vs. security, that therefore I must approve of the picture-password idea. I don't. :)

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    10. Re:2 characters. by JimFive · · Score: 1

      I tried this and noticed that I started the petals at the 11 o'clock position and went clockwise, and ended up drawing 7 petals, though the last one was a bit large and 8 might be more normal. My leaf is on the right of the stem.

      I am right handed.

      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    11. Re:2 characters. by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      I write left handed, so I can see why I might go counter clockwise and a right handed person would go clockwise. When I did it originally, I did 6 petals....the real question was if the order I described is basically the order you took. With small variations, you can see how it wouldn't be that hard to remember the basic picture people would draw....so this really isn't that secure....probably less than a typed password.

      Layne

    12. Re:2 characters. by JimFive · · Score: 1

      I agree that it doesn't seem very secure. Especially since drawing the same picture three times a day on a pad is probably going to leave an impression on the pad. Not to mention the technique of putting a piece of transparency on the pad to absorb the impression and then removing the plastic for use at leisure. (Why do you need a mouse/key/video logger?)

      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
  15. More Secure? by 56 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It seems to me that this would drastically increase the security of passwords from attack by machines but would make them more susceptible to attack from humans.

    There are only so many places to start drawing your password on a picture and a human would recognize that. People would probably draw birds in the sky and dogs on the ground, right? Also, I would guess that people would make linear leaps with their pictures: someone will draw a bird, and not a fish, in a picture of a tree.

    That said, I'm not saying that this isn't a worthwhile endeavor, just that it wouldn't necessarily be as secure as it looks at first glance.

    1. Re:More Secure? by springbox · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's the case for your average user who uses "1111" for their password, but other people (hopefully people on here) know the value of using varied, long, and unique passwords. That's why I plan to draw a rocket train blasting out of a hole in the bottom with a kitty cat for a conductor in each of my picture passwords.

  16. Re:I don't belive it. by JackieBrown · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Will we need to draw a new picture every 90 days?

  17. Easy dictionary attack by Doppler00 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How many people will use a picture password of a stick man, tree, or a happy sun?

    1. Re:Easy dictionary attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many people will use a picture password of a stick man, tree, or a happy sun? That's the good part. It doesn't matter!

      Stickman password 1: Start draw left arm, body. Lift pen, draw right arm. Lift pen, draw head then the legs.

      Stickman password 2: Start with head, right arm body, legs then left arm.

      See where I'm going with this? Just because you know your friend has got a stickman password does not mean you know how he draws it. If your friend and you draw the exact same figure but you draw the head circle in clockwise direction and your friend in anti-clockwise there is two different passwords right there.

      Same applies to the "star" and "happy sun".

      Captcha: draw led
  18. A thousand times huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah right. Maybe a thousand times better than a Joe Sixpack "god/sex" password but no way this is better than a good text password. The key-space is way smaller than a regular text password.

  19. This isn't good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for those of us who couldn't draw Tippy to get into the Art school.

  20. good for some, bad for some? by siddesu · · Score: 1, Redundant

    IMHO this is pretty good for people who can do calligraphy reasonably well.

    For example, to write Chinese characters properly, you need to remember the correct "stroke order" for each dash or dot in the character, and repeat it every time you write. The position where each stroke begins and ends is also fixed. It takes some training, discipline and drilling to learn writing like this though. For sloppy writers like me (I even had trouble writing pretty letters in school, mostly due to lazitude), this may not be such a good idea after all.

    Especially if you have to do it with a mouse on a shiny surface ;)

  21. As nice as this sounds... by John+Pfeiffer · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...the reality is that this story should probably be tagged 'security through never-being-able-to-access-your-stuff-again'

    --

    Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
  22. Re:I don't belive it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You draw whatever picture you want. The background image is just to give you a frame of reference so you know where you started.

    I think most people will associate the same things to the same background (eg. flowers->bee) resulting in even less combinations... also, the universe of "drawable things" is smaller than the universe of words, and that is smaller than the universe of pass...

  23. lazy people by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

    People would just use lines for their picture, cracking will become a game of battleships at best and at worst a program will play it for you.

    --
    I like muppets.
  24. Two serious problems by adminstring · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1. An artistically-inclined person looking over your shoulder might be able to draw your image about as well as you can. With a conventional keyboard password, I can block the keyboard with my body so others can't see what I'm typing, and I can pretend to press keys that aren't in my password so even if they can see, they are thrown off. There is less you can do to block a screen you have to look at to draw properly.

    2. Some people's hands shake when they've had too much caffeine, most people's fingers get stiff when they've been out in the cold, and some people have degenerative diseases which make typing a one-letter-at-a-time proposition. Drawing would be very difficult in all of these circumstances. Perhaps this is why TFA says that 5% of users couldn't recreate their image within three attempts a week after first coming up with it.

    I don't think this technology is going anywhere any time soon.

    --
    My truck is like a series of tubes.
    1. Re:Two serious problems by Kickersny.com · · Score: 1

      Never mind the fact that blind people would probably have a field day with this!

    2. Re:Two serious problems by P3NIS_CLEAVER · · Score: 1

      What happens when they find the post-it note in my drawer with a little picture on it?

      --
      Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!

      http://financialpetition.org/
    3. Re:Two serious problems by Sivaraj · · Score: 1

      Also,

      3. Workplace CCTV cameras

    4. Re:Two serious problems by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      Easier to hide it.....as bad as we all draw (generalizing, real artists excluded), just write "Klara" with a backwards "r" and hang it on the wall.....it will look like a kid drew it for you and no one would be the wiser.

      Layne

    5. Re:Two serious problems by mark_hill97 · · Score: 1

      privacy filters, such as those sold by 3m would stop them from seeing it.

  25. New password == old password? by Rodyland · · Score: 5, Funny

    8==D


    Who'd have guessed you could use the same password in both systems?

    1. Re:New password == old password? by VGPowerlord · · Score: 5, Funny

      Password isn't long enough.

      And that's from the graphical login system! :P

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    2. Re:New password == old password? by Silver+Gryphon · · Score: 1

      640 bytes ought to be enough for anybody. Or strokes, if you prefer the GUI.

    3. Re:New password == old password? by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I want to know how many strokes that password takes.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    4. Re:New password == old password? by riffzifnab · · Score: 1

      I have some pills here that will help you with your "password" problem.

    5. Re:New password == old password? by truesaer · · Score: 1

      Try this: 8===D~~~

  26. I HAVE A BETTER IDEA by TheBearBear · · Score: 0

    How about a little mini game, where your actions make up the password...like...jumping on X car and shooting a sign at X height and dragging the sweater under a sign, when the timer hits X:XX....or some crazy combination like that. You know, just like how we would unlock stuff or get extra lives by doin weird random things in Super Mario Brothers or any other kind of video game. I think this is WAAAY MORE secure if you add this on top of a text password. With what I just described above you can do things so many different ways!!

    1. Re:I HAVE A BETTER IDEA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what sweater?

    2. Re:I HAVE A BETTER IDEA by EEBaum · · Score: 1

      What if you're having an off day and can't manage to get 5000 points on the flag?

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    3. Re:I HAVE A BETTER IDEA by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      Actually, that would be TOO easy to remember.....how many people can just spout of all of the various unlock codes from games?

      ^v^vBABAStart
      IDSPISPOD
      etc.

      Layne

  27. DDR Passwords by iago · · Score: 5, Funny

    At least my idea for a Dance, Dance, Revolution password authentication scheme is still intact.

    Patent pending, patent pending, patent pending.

    --
    Worst Sig Ever
  28. How to reset? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a sysadmin. A user calls me and says "I forgot my password". How do I reset it? After confirming the person's identity yada yada, saying "I've reset your password to 'somepassword'" is easy. How do you say "Your new password is a flower. No, not a daisy - more like a poppy, or maybe a droopy rose. The stamen is just a little squiggle. Maybe a couple of squiggles - not very large. Little dots on top. Don't forget the stem. I added a little flourish of wild grasses because I thought that would look nice. OK, let's give up on that one. Do you like monster trucks?"

    What would the image equivalent of 'pwgen -s -y' create for me?

    1. Re:How to reset? by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 1

      Your new password is a giant line from the top right corner to the bottom left.

      Or just let them login passwordless forcing them to reset their password on next login, and expiring in 3 minutes if they don't login.

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
  29. Johnny Neumonic by Dr+Floppy · · Score: 1

    Anyone remember that they used pictures as passkeys in Johnny Neumonic, that crazy movie with Keanu Reeves?

    1. Re:Johnny Neumonic by GotenXiao · · Score: 1

      Mnemonic. See this and this.

      --
      Goten Xiao
  30. A couple of problems by mutex_lock · · Score: 1

    1. "People possess a remarkable ability for recalling pictures": If anybody ever accidentally sees you drawing your passgraphics it will be easy from him/her to remember what you drew. 2. People are not good at recreating the exact same movements every time. While different versions of my natural signature look similar they are never exactly the same. The software will need to be able to cope with that. How well that works you can experience with any device using a stylus detecting handwritten characters. It typically takes me two to three attempts to enter my password on my handheld correctly that way. What's so new about the concept? It's not really different from zig-zagging over a keyboard creating an arbitrary password.

  31. Silly Mr. Powers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sharks with frickin' laser beam are one MILLION times more secure.

  32. "Fuzz factor" already included. by khasim · · Score: 1
    From TFA:

    For example, if a person chooses a flower background and then draws a butterfly as their secret password image onto it, they have to remember where they began on the grid and the order of their pen strokes. It is recognised as identical if the encoding is the same, not the drawing itself, which allows for some margin of error as the drawing does not have to be re-created exactly.

    So you don't even have to hit the same points. And this is supposedly "more secure"?

    Imagine a password program that allowed for "close enough" typing. Would you consider it "more secure"?

    If your password was "peach", would you want the system to accept "apple" as being "close enough"?
    1. Re:"Fuzz factor" already included. by Mike89 · · Score: 1

      If your password was "peach", would you want the system to accept "apple" as being "close enough"?
      Wouldn't it be more like:
      If your password was "peach", would you want the system to accept "peacj" as being "close enough"?
  33. Great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because "penis" wasn't a common enough password before...

  34. Pictures without doodling by taybay · · Score: 0

    I've seen other instances of picture passwords, but instead of doodling on them, a series of points were clicked on the picture. The user would have to remember the areas clicked and the order in which they were selected. This seems faster, more secure and less prone to error than drawing a picture just to log in to something.

  35. Is it that bloody hard to remember "1 2 3 4 5"? by jpellino · · Score: 1

    All this hifalutin tech to solve a simple problem. Sheesh.

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  36. Just a thought ... by CoderDog · · Score: 1

    How many ways are there to sign in with an X?

    Doesn't the iphone have accelerometers? It's no great feat to foresee that becoming very popular. Why not have the phone/pda/plamtop differentiate dance moves? If you can't do the Fox Trot, maybe master hopping on one foot. Of course, it oughta be smart enough to tell which foot, jump height etc.

    The hopping password might be really handy. When someone tries to mug you and your iphone won't accept your sign-on to transfer the extortion amount to their account, you can say ... oh something like, "Oops! I'm a little short today", with total confidence.

  37. Been there. Done that. by Kainaw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you remove the background picture and the act of displaying what you draw to everyone within eye-shot, I've already done that at http://shaunwagner.com/index.html?page=Projects%2FJavascript%2FMouse+Password

    Does it work? No. It is far too difficult to draw the same image twice without seeing what you are drawing. If you can see what you are drawing, so can everyone else - then they can draw the same image.

    --
    The previous comment is purposely vague and generalized, but all of the facts are completely true.
  38. I call bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I bet I could crack 75% of these right off the bat by drawing a cock or boobs.

    1. Re:I call bullshit by tepples · · Score: 1

      I bet I could crack 75% of these right off the bat by drawing a cock or boobs. There are plenty of ways to draw cocks and boobies. (Yes, they're safe for work.)
  39. Similar Idea for PalmOS - Prior Art? by jerel · · Score: 2, Informative
    Back when I depended on my Palm III for keeping track of my schedule and contacts, I also stored credit card numbers and passcodes etc. that needed to be secure. I purchased a product called OnlyMe which allowed pseudo-graphical entry of passwords. They encouraged you to enter a password using a series of strokes without lifting your stylus. From their site:

    To allow extremely quick and easy password input, OnlyMe's keys allow you to "press" them without lifting your stylus from the surface of the device! You may choose a password composed of keys that allow you to enter the password as one, quick sweep of the stylus - a single gesture of your own design. This quick sweep of the stylus may start from or go outside the bounds of the OnlyMe "window." ... For a high level of security, we recommend that you use two gestures of at least four keys each. With this level of security, an intruder's best bet for accessing your data is to contract with someone with specialized knowledge to access the device's memory.
    FWIW, IANAC but I estimate that using their two-gesture recommendation would result in something over 2 million possible passwords. This is a great piece of software and well worth $20 for anybody still using one of these for anything important.

    It's a small conceptual leap to go from this 1998 stroke-based password idea to the present idea of drawing a picture to capture strokes which are then turned into a password. Looks like prior art to me!
    --
    Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.
  40. 25+KB vs 9-18 bytes, no #$@$ shirlock.. by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    your average forum avatar is 25kilobytes

    your average good alphanumeric password is 9-18 bytes

    guess which one would be harder to crack, even with a "fuzzy" range

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    1. Re:25+KB vs 9-18 bytes, no #$@$ shirlock.. by mcpkaaos · · Score: 1

      How many of those KB are for color?

      --
      It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
  41. So many problems by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

    "The most exciting feature is that a simple enhancement simultaneously provides significantly enhanced usability and security."

    I fail to see how this idea could even *remotely* be construed as providing "significantly enhanced useability". The security aspect is at least arguable (and I actually don't buy that either), but in no way shape or form could such an idea *ever* be called "more useable." Consider:

    * It takes me about a second to type a password. How long would it take me to move my mouse pointer to the appropriate spot on the screen to start my "picture" and then draw it? Wouldn't a more secure "password" require more strokes? An extra character or two in your password takes a fraction of a second to type. A couple of extra strokes in a picture would necessarily take *much* longer to complete.

    * What happens if I make a stroke in the picture wrong? I can't just delete it. *Maybe* I could if I was provided some kind of eraser, and the stroke that I messed up on didn't intersect any other strokes. I've erased pen strokes with the Gimp and other such tools; it's no fun. You have to zoom way in and carefully and slowly erase all of the pixels you touched without disturbing any others. What a pain. Or maybe the password-picture input system would have a stroke-by-stroke undo kind of like the Gimp has? My god, what a complex piece of software one's password input route has just become!

    * Just about every human-computer interface ever invented has the ability to take text input from the user. So typed passwords are *always* an option. Not every interface allows you do draw pictures however. How am I going to enter my SSH password (or its picture equivalent) from a VT100 terminal?

    I could go on and on. This is basically a really, really stupid idea, which I think is obvious to just about everyone. This will absolutely never catch on, and never make it past this guy's thesis or whatever academic setting it came from.

  42. Sounds like Kanji by MBHkewl · · Score: 1

    Their idea sounds like a rip-off from Kanji, the Chinese characters; Those learning the calligraphy must draw the words according to certain strokes in a certain order & way.
    But seriously, the basic Kanjis are around 3000! So, unless we all start using that "new" password method from kindergarten to train ourselves, it would just result in way too many locked accounts & miserable users & support teams!

    --
    Mod points are a dangerous tool. Abuse them wisely.
  43. Most idiots will still just draw an X. by jon287 · · Score: 1

    Idiots will still just draw an X. Most passes will be easy to brute force with simple dictionary-like lists.

    --
    To boldly use to and too two times and get it right too! They're not gonna believe their eyes when they see it there!
    1. Re:Most idiots will still just draw an X. by Bob+McCown · · Score: 1

      No no, its pictionary-like lists...

  44. Duh.. by zcat_NZ · · Score: 1

    Here's a headline for you;

    "Public Key Authentication more secure than Picture Passwords"

    Besides picture passwords are as annoying as hell, require a GUI and mouse, and aren't really all that much more secure than plain text passwords. You can still brute-force the picture sequence. You can still pick them up sniffing the network, you just need to be about three times smarter than a rock instead of barely smarter than a rock.

    I'll take ssh authorized_keys over picture passwords any day.

    --
    455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
    1. Re:Duh.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll take ssh authorized_keys over picture passwords any day.
      So, how do you protect your private keys?
  45. No Asterisks! by MBHkewl · · Score: 1

    In current password fields, we at least get asterisks to hide the text we're writing, but with a picture to be drawn: People can see the pictrue, the background & the way you're drawing that picture!

    You call this security enhancement?!?

    The "new" method only works if you only login from your house, away from prying eyes, and never ever use it outside. Add to that, it makes social engineering hacking attempts much easier.

    Stupid idea.

    --
    Mod points are a dangerous tool. Abuse them wisely.
  46. Such marketing bullshit. by ACK!! · · Score: 1

    "thousand times more secure than ordinary textual passwords. "

    Sure, but like a half the poster have already said you are going to have a 80% of end luser drawing happy faces, smileys and stick figures with giant cocks. Easy to dup and a thousand times less secure than a regular pass.

    Plus the problem with the signature recognition people have talked about in other posts is that the tools already available at retail stores all suck nuts. You ever try signing your name for a credit card transaction?

    It never looks right or feels right and it always looks screwed up different every single time.

    --
    ACK /ak/ interj. 2. [from the comic strip "Bloom County"] An exclamation of surprised disgust, esp. i
  47. Whatever happened to Wizard Codes? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    Many years ago we did authentication this way:
    The system displays a long random number (e.g. 40 digits) plus some tick marks. You pick certain digits, do a simple operation with them, and enter the result. E.g. ( 5th digit + 2nd digit) * 12th digit. We did that after a normal password.

  48. Let Me Guess ... by jetpack · · Score: 1

    So, according to the movie "Hackers", the most common passwords are "god," "sex," "love" and "secret."

    With this pass-image scheme, the favorite pass-images will be what? Boobs, penises, and goatse.cx?

    1. Re:Let Me Guess ... by El_Oscuro · · Score: 1

      You forgot the top two:

      1. whatever the default is
      2. "password"
      --
      "Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
  49. Post-it factor.... by whatevah · · Score: 1
    I fail to see how this eliminates the "post-it" factor.

    After all, I thought that was the biggest problem with passwords.

    First there were letters, now there will be ... drawings?

    hmmm....

  50. Picture Passwords by the_tsi · · Score: 1

    ... wasn't that a show on Nickelodeon with Bill Cosby? He'd show you his password for various systems, and make silly sound effects to go with whatever sort of line he was drawing. It had a theme song: Picture Passwords, Picture Passwords, lots of fun with Picture Passwords, lots of fun with crayons and with pencils!

  51. password expired by dfries · · Score: 2, Funny

    Ordinary people have been doing this for hundreds of years. It's called a SIGNATURE.

    That might be a good idea until you get one of these messages.
    Password expired, please change your name.

  52. Dam! Input tablet error... by Vskye · · Score: 1

    ...some little SOB passed a magnet over my Etch-a-Sketch, which totally ruined my secure signature. grrrrrr... closely watching those hacker types in the office.
     
    Yep, this idea is as solid as sand. Had to much to drink, or? Christ, my signature is never "exactly" the same, and I sure as hell can't draw.

    --
    Life was hell, then I discovered Linux...
  53. Somethnig I know + something I own. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The best security revolves around more than one piece of information. I can spy on you while chatting innocently and get hold of you logon password, people are very careless around friends/colleagues. However I won't be able to logon as you if I also require your secureId card or other similar technology.

    So basing a logon on a single technology is flawed, you need more than one, e.g. something I know (password) and something I own (fingerprint, secureId card, keychain, rfid button etc). You may be able to get one, but its unlikely you'll get both.

    Andy.

  54. Gestures? by SleepyHappyDoc · · Score: 1

    How about gesture-based passwords? In order to log onto your computer, you have to stand in front of your webcam and do the hokey-pokey?

    --
    Stasis is death. Embrace change.
  55. I already have this by EkriirkE · · Score: 1

    On my Toshiba tablet, it has an applet to use your signature or drawings for authentication at login.

    --
    from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
  56. Re:Been there. Done that. by EkriirkE · · Score: 1

    It's not about pixels, but strokes or gestures and speed. Think of it like "one short stroke SouthSouthEeast in this region done so fast, two strokes going North in that around X speed, a curve up in this area, a circular gesture in that"

    --
    from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
  57. Boss vs. Employee by nerdyalien · · Score: 1

    Boss : What the f*** are you doing, its half past 10 ??? Employee : I am drawing pictures since morning sir Boss : Why the f*** on earth you waste time on drawing childish drawing on a Monday morning ??? Employee : I am trying to log in to my f***ing computer you moron...

  58. I like insecure methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    It makes me more cautious.

    The day "they" can say "without a doubt" it was YOU, is the day they will frame you for something you didn't do.

    Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.

  59. Can't you see? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sucks for the blind.

    AC

  60. I write my signature backwords. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .sdrowkcab erutangis ym etirw I

    1. Re:I write my signature backwords. by witekr · · Score: 1

      .niaga yrt dna gnilleps ruoy kcehc esaelP !drowssaP tcerrocnI :GNINRAW

  61. Please.. dear GOD no! by ps3udonym · · Score: 2, Funny

    I beg of you.. Imagine the call..

    User "I have forgotten my password"

    admin "let me just reset it for you, the default password is a square with a star inside started at grid co-ordinates 0,3 going to 0,10 then down to 10,10... Don't forget to lift your pen at each courner"

    Just kill me now please.

  62. Quite literally by garphik · · Score: 1

    Digital signature

  63. minimum requirements by PineGreen · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh no:

    Password too simple. Password must be at least 8 strokes with at least one diagonal one and one wiggly one.

    1. Re:minimum requirements by Atario · · Score: 1

      Error: please do not color in solid areas of your drawing or use hash marks to indicate shading. And stippling is ROIGHT OUT!

      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
  64. Re:I don't belive it. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

    I figure this will be easier for malicious people to guess the correct drawing (albeit without necessarily being able to guess the starting point and stroke patterns. If you add those pieces of info in, however, it will go from being trivial for anyone to access by guessing to being almost impossible for anyone to access.... Unfortunately, that "anyone" likely includes the legitimate owner of the account.

    Congratulations. You've designed perfect security. Why bother letting only the person you want in when you can just keep everyone out? :-)

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  65. what if by garphik · · Score: 1

    some util takes a snapshot and sends info by backdoor ? the whole thing fails ? even voice recognition looks good, but what if someone records voice and bypasses the checked input ? Security needs to be unique and non-reproducible(direct / indirect) by others

  66. done that by jtgd · · Score: 0

    I did something like this myself about 5 years ago. I put up a window with a 16x16 grid and drew a pattern onto it with the mouse. Order did not matter but each pixel contributed some number of random bits to the password. The random bits assigned to the pixels was generated from a short text "password" (salt) at the start, so knowing only the figure was not enough. The result is a password with lots of pseudo-random bits, yet it was easy to remember the pattern.

    --
    J
  67. Missing option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Hello? Stick men??? Come on. Everybody is going to use boobs!

  68. Imagine the support calls... by Slurpee · · Score: 1

    Makes "is the caps lock key down" seem down right ordinary.

    Mike

  69. A Colt 45 and a pocket full of cash by NonCow · · Score: 1

    ... could be come a viable security model again at some stage in the future. From whom do we need to be secured?

  70. Sounds like a pain in the ass... by Bones3D_mac · · Score: 1

    I've never understood the fascination with pictographic security measures. It seems very rube-goldberg and introduces several counter-intuitive factors that could end up locking out legitimate clients from their own data, if something were to happen to them that would permanently alter how they enter such a code. (The same could be said for biometric security measures, as well...)

    For example, what if the user were to end up blind, paralyzed or damages / loses part of the limb used to enter such a code? At least with alphanumeric sequences, there are several ways to accomodate such changes.

    May pictographic codes were cool back in the days of Johnny Pneumonic, but realistically they're not exactly practical for everyday use. There's a few websites out there, like SpyMac that employ pictographic codes, however, they lost a good chunk of their user base after it was put into effect. (Not sure if they're still using it now though...)

    --


    8==8 Bones 8==8
    1. Re:Sounds like a pain in the ass... by SwordsmanLuke · · Score: 1

      ...back in the days of Johnny Pneumonic I think you meant Johnny Mnemonic... Johnny Pneumonic sounds like a porn star.
      --
      Any plan which depends on a fundamental change in human behavior is doomed from the start.
  71. 1000 times more secure... by cdekadt · · Score: 1

    Want a password that is 1000 times more secure? Just add two extra characters. Woohooo.

  72. ssh? by rfroberg · · Score: 1

    How is this supposed to work with ssh (text only) logins?

    --
    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
  73. Disability Discrimination and CAPTCHA/imagery by rapiddescent · · Score: 1

    I was a consultant at a large UK retail bank and we were going to use a type of picture/CAPTCHA on the online banking solution. Except that the RNIB (Royal National Institute for the Blind) consultancy operation basically told us that if we went ahead they would be forced to "go to the newspapers" and also would consider taking action under DDA (Disability Discrimination Act) legislation.

    It's really important to consider (in the UK at least) that around 10% of the online population will not be able to see or draw images clearly on a computer screen and therefore, whilst graphical authentication is fantastic security for most of us - it does not work for all of us. As soon as you present a 'way out' for those that cannot see as well as the average human, you have introduced a loophole in your security system and the investiment in CAPTCHA or imagery is threatened.

    NB: in the UK, under DDA we have to provide "a reasonable alternative" for disabled users - however, the strength of the RNIB lobby is really turning that into "You must not discriminate in any way against a sight impaired user" - so by making it impossible for impaired sight users to use this strong authentication from TFA is in fact discriminatory against them...

    rd

  74. SHA by h4rm0ny · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But on the subject of security, how would these passwords be stored? One nice thing with plaintext is that you never have to store anyone's actual password, only the hash of it. I suppose you could still create a hash of "1. stroke 47degrees 3%, 2, stroke 270degrees 22%" or whatever the password device spits out, but it seems to me that as this system requires a more sophisticated way of interpreting fuzzily matched movements, there might be problems with this approach or it could introduce weaknesses.

    You could use some algorithm to simplify the users drawing, rounding angles (I punned! :D ), adjusting lengths, perhaps. But this would probably have the effect of narrowing the password space making it easier to crack the passwords. I'm not an expert in this area, I'd be interested to know if they've thought about this or if anyone else knows a bit more about it.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    1. Re:SHA by dvice_null · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The strokes could be stored e.g. as an xml file, and then we would get a hash of that file. So storing is not a problem, we can do it pretty much the same way passwords are stored.

    2. Re:SHA by Skrynkelberg · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine a neural network would be trained to recognise the drawing. Even if you draw a little wrong, you will get the same output from the network (e.g. "Access granted").

    3. Re:SHA by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      I've not worked with neural networks (the non-organic kind). I imagine that a neural network can be preserved as a representation of its state, so could be stored in a database. But for security purposes this is equivalent to storing the password. I understand that a neural network could be trained to recognize the drawing (though I think a much simpler representation must be possible), but it wouldn't be possible to store a hash of this network as a means of recognizing passwords without storing them. A hash of some generalised representation such as the previous poster's XML suggestion could be stored, but there might be an issue with narrowing the password space. I just wondered if it was anything that anyone has thought about. Not storing people's passwords is a standard security precaution as well as extending useful privacy to the users.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    4. Re:SHA by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You miss the point - there is no single way of drawing the "same" pass picture - only more or less similar ways. The values in your XML file you talk about would be slightly different each time you drew the pass picture.

      Since even only a single bit difference to a hash algorithm generates an entirely different result, this means you can't hash that file and expect it to match a hash of the "same" pass picture on the server, unless you draw the pass picture absolutely identically every time.

      So how do you securely store a user pass-picture on the server without risking its compromise if the server was hacked? Which was the point of the GP.

    5. Re:SHA by Darius_Acriter · · Score: 2, Informative

      They are not storing the picture, but rather the way you draw the picture. Let's say they break the drawing area up into 9 squares. What they are encoding is the steps. Pen down quad 2,2 to 2,1 to 1,1, pen up. pen down quad 2,2 to 2,3 to 3,3 to 3,2, to 2,2 pen up. As long as I stay within the 'resolution' of their encoding I will be generating the same hashed file

    6. Re:SHA by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 1

      Good point. That'll teach me to read the summary more carefully!

    7. Re:SHA by Skrynkelberg · · Score: 1

      I didn't have the issue of storing the password in mind when I wrote my answer. I don't know if there is any really good method for tackling this problem. I would imagine that storing a picture password would be identical to storing a text one from a security perspective (regardless of if it's the weights of a neural network, an XML table, or something else).

      However, that doesn't seem to be what this method is adressing. The main points appear to be that a picture password is much harder to brute force or (probably) guess than a text one.

    8. Re:SHA by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      The strokes could be stored e.g. as an xml file, and then we would get a hash of that file. So storing is not a problem, we can do it pretty much the same way passwords are stored.

      I don't think that would be possible. When dealing with authentication techniques like this, there is an algorithm and a score that the human gets on a test with some kind of threshold for pass or fail.

      When I sign something, its never really the same twice. Storing an absolute hash of my signature would not work.

      I think its amazing that for years nobody has come up with a way to easily and reliably see who a person is with respect to a computer. Some of it is due to human nature in that people want it to be a challenge for privacy reasons. Its absolutely nuts. What is really nuts is that there is no way to keep oneself credentailized.

      I'm with the billions of people before me, and I don't have an answer.

  75. Hear hear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I once challanged a girl to write worse than my best, and won. No I'm not happy about it. Some of us simply can't draw, or write, or sign signatures.

    That said, how do the wordblind manage the CAPTCHA challanges? Must be hell for them.

    1. Re:Hear hear by Das+Modell · · Score: 2, Funny

      Some CAPTCHAs are so difficult that it seems only computers could solve them.

  76. Re:I don't belive it. by Rob+Simpson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yes. Also the picture will require at least one instance each of cross-hatching, scumbling, and stippling.

  77. 60 Megabyte /bin/login by octogen · · Score: 1

    yeah, and of course, in the 4 million lines of code required to implement all the motion-tracking and image-processing there won't be any more bugs than in the 50 lines of code required to compare two text strings...

  78. I got phished... by Kuvter · · Score: 1

    Someone learned how to draw my fish.

    --
    "To be is to do." --Socrates
    "To do is to be." -- Aristotle
    "Do-Be-Do-Be-Do..." --Sinatra
  79. Massive Cocks by sqldr · · Score: 3, Funny

    I can already see the movie scene where they crack the chief of the FBI's laptop by guessing his pictogram.

    Stacey: Try drawing a massive cock..

    Arnie: I'm in. Lets get to work

    --
    I wrote my first program at the age of six, and I still can't work out how this website works.
  80. Easy! by BooleanLobster · · Score: 1

    I put a key-logger, mouse-logger, and screen-logger on your system (hardware ones, that is). I retrieve the loggers and memorize every mouse movement and keypress in the video. If necessary, I record a several instances of you opening that archive. If I want that archive badly enough, I'll break even that security.

    --
    In hell, you will find a mountain of broken, feces-covered typewriters and a stack of copies of the First Folio.
    1. Re:Easy! by ILuvRamen · · Score: 1

      you'd have to figure out yourself that the password increments and the first letter of it changes to the middle letter of whatever day it is. Ooooh what's up now? lol. It gets worse, trust me. I just got sick of writing lol.

      --
      Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
  81. Stupid people by nagora · · Score: 1

    How many stage magician "mind reading" acts are based on how easy it is to work out what someone's drawing based on the way the other end of the pen moves?

    TWW

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  82. remember by martin · · Score: 1

    "If a person chooses a flower background and then draws a butterfly as their secret password image onto it, they have to remember where they began on the grid and the order of their pen strokes."

    come on - they can't remember a passphrase never mind how to draw a house......

    then there's the "I'm stupid and forgot my password" links and things have have to do to reverify....

    might help, might not..

  83. Well.. yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because no one can remember which fucking pictures they picked, or which spots on pictures they picked.

    So even the account owners themselves get frequently locked out.

    Doesn't mean that it's more secure.

  84. Scalable Vector Graphics by tepples · · Score: 1

    A thousand words? That's only 2000 bytes! What image-format was he using? For one thing, a "word" of data on most computers since the i386 that display pictures is 4 octets, not 2. For another thing, the format in question might be gzipped SVG.
  85. Peach-oo by tepples · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it be more like:
    If your password was "peach", would you want the system to accept "peacj" as being "close enough"? Actually, it'd be more like:
    If your password was "peach", is "pichu" close enough?
  86. Security authentication basics. by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    Some basic in authentication.

    -Something you know (password)
    -Something you are (biometrics)
    -Something you have (key, token, gsm phone)

    Making the password more secure does not make the access authentication much more secure.

  87. Reminds me of that Howie Mandel joke... by Snydley+Whiplash · · Score: 1

    I went to the DMV to get my license. The lady asks for my id so I give her my Canadian id. She hands it back saying "I'm sorry I need something with a picture on it". So I draw a little picture on it! "I'm sorry", she says, "That's not good enough.". So what, I gotta be a f**king artist to drive in this country????? Yeah I probably butchered that joke....

  88. Pictoral Password Systems by Grindalf · · Score: 0

    Newcastle Uni in the news again! Way to go... Toon Army! Grindalf

    --
    The purpose of existence is to make money.
  89. Why the hell is that moderated insightfull? by Snaller · · Score: 1

    Meh indeed.

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  90. Works Great! by Chapter80 · · Score: 1

    I got to test this system. The real cool part is that when you draw the picture, the system obfuscates it with an asterisk. My picture contains a hunter and a numeral "2". When I draw the picture, I can see it, but everyone else sees asterisks.

  91. indeed, why does it matter by TamMan2000 · · Score: 1

    Why should one care what order the strokes are penned in for any given character, as long as the character comes out looking the same. It strikes me as a horribly pointless thing to be wasting cycles learning...

    I have never penned my O's the way they wanted me to in my mechanical drawing class, except for when the TA was watching, nobody could tell...

    --
    "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
    1. Re:indeed, why does it matter by Amouth · · Score: 1

      in some languages the way they are drawn can mean as much as the char it's self.. it is difficult to draw something exactly the same by not doing it the same way, expecialy by hand

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    2. Re:indeed, why does it matter by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Its a real bitch when using kanji-related tools that utilize handwriting recognition, such as dictionary and learning software for the Nintendo DS. Most of them assume a certain stroke order, so if you do it wrong then you come out with a completely different Kanji. Sometimes I have to experiment with two or three different orders to get it to come out correctly.

  92. Mods! WTF? by SwordsmanLuke · · Score: 1
    I'm-too-young-to-get-the-joke != Troll

    Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A. Go read this... And then get the hell off my lawn!
    --
    Any plan which depends on a fundamental change in human behavior is doomed from the start.
  93. I think this would be a useful option by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

    Personally, I would come up with, essentially, a scribble with multiple lines, curves, and dots. I wouldn't need to see the image of it, so even if someone watches me draw, there would be little chance that they could imitate it. Same idea as avoiding words for passwords. This would be better to use for corporate or financial security; I don't see this as being practical for accounts and devices that don't have sensitive information or potential for major abuse.

  94. A very interesting variation by stwf · · Score: 1

    I can't draw, and I don't want to anyway. I also sincerely doubt I could draw a circle the same way twice.

    But I can look at most of my 14000 digital images and tell you where it was taken and when. 4 different pictures of me and the same 2 people and I can tell you where each one was just by the way the people look. I think it would be very tough for a computer to figure that out, much less someone looking over your shoulder. Assuming you had enough images that it couldn't be strictly memorized.

    Very interesting, I think showing a picture from a large collection and having me idetify where it was taken would be pretty secure, certainly better than using one password for all of my servers ;-).

  95. The Real Top Ten Passwords by jetpack · · Score: 1

    Well, I was only referring to what the movie said. However, if you want to be pedantic, there was a study a while back that supposedly uncovered the real top 10 passwords. I have no idea how they got this data, and it appears to be a survey of the UK. YMMV.

  96. Niven and Pournelle, too by abb3w · · Score: 1

    Glenda Ruth Blaine uses a picture-based password in Niven and Pournelle's The Gripping Hand.

    --
    //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
  97. Uh huh. Yeah. by pclminion · · Score: 1

    Good luck if you're blind.

    I'm not blind or otherwise disabled and I'm still sick of people shoving this entire class of people to the side.

  98. Better than text password? by PK077295 · · Score: 1

    Seriously now, how can this be better than text password? People just use common words as password such as "password" itself, what will prevent these people from using common pictures such as a circle? And fingerprint reading is a much better password than drawing -- you don't need to remember anything, just swipe your finger.

  99. A lot of us aren't in Asia. by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 1

    Penmanship and drawing are no longer really taught, much less learned, in most schools.

    Plus, what if you get carpal tunnel? What if your hand is in a cast, or infected and bandaged, or whatever?

  100. Y'all Know What They Say... by triso · · Score: 1

    A picture is worth a thousand passwords.

  101. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? by tepples · · Score: 1

    If you can't do the Fox Trot, Then maybe you can do the CNN Tango? It takes two: you and the verifier.
  102. MOD PARENT UP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My thoughts exactly :)

  103. There is prior art by hicksw · · Score: 1

    I worked on a project at the UK National Physical Laboratory http://www.npl.co.uk/ in the mid 1970's. A couple of applied physists had played around with a graphics tablet and come up with a graphical scheme for authentication. My job was to turn their code into algorithms and write a specification to be used in their patent application.

    Their idea of an NDA was the Official Secrets Act, so I won't go into any details.