Joss Whedon Back on TV

tokenhillbilly writes "Joss Whedon of 'Buffy' and 'Firefly' fame has signed on to do another TV series on Fox starring Eliza Dushku (Faith from 'Buffy'). The series is going to be called Dollhouse, and the story surrounds a group of people 'programmed' to do missions out of a sort of high-tech dorm. '[The series] follows a top-secret world of people programmed with different personalities, abilities and memories depending on their mission. After each assignment -- which can be physical, romantic or even illegal -- the characters have their memories wiped clean, and are sent back to a lab (dubbed the "Dollhouse"). [The] show centers on Dushku's character, Echo, as she slowly begins to develop some self-awareness, which impacts her missions.'"

Comments

Cooool...

[gbulmash]

Number five is alive!

Re:Cooool...

[Anonymous Coward]

no it's Joe 90, but not with puppets

"For nine-year-old Joe can do anything, thanks to a fabulous electronic device which can transfer the brain patterns of those who are the greatest experts in their field. When he receives these brain patterns, Joe, with the aid of a special pair of glasses which have built-in electrodes, becomes a man in thought and deed... can become the greatest of all astronauts, a dare-devil pilot, an ace motorist, a brilliant brain surgeon or whatever else may be necessary for him as the most daring of all agents attached to the World Intelligence Network... yet he still looks what he really is - a normal, healthy schoolboy. Every assignment brings new excitement, new hazards and unexpected situations - for JOE 90 and viewers alike!"

Re:Cooool...

[KudyardRipling]

Ripping off Gerry Anderson, eh? May they be haunted by the ghost of real television.

Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Dorceon]

If the opening is "The Light Before We Land" by The Delgados I'm totally calling foul.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the Gunslinger Girls just had certain emotional responses suppressed. No empathy, fear, being startled, and little physical pain. In addition, they have this implanted emotional response to their handler. The series focused on the handlers remorse for their own lack of morality and the potential mental unhinging of the girls.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[The Great Pretender]

Sounds more like Joe 90 meets Alias to me

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[RaceCarDriver]

Right, and they didn't wipe the memories after each hit. But it still sounds a lot like it...

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Pinky's Brain]

More Nikita than Alias.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, not really surprising, Firefly had much in common with Outlaw Star, although that didn't make it any less interesting. (Cowboys in outer space, they find a girl in a box in the first episode...)

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Bieeanda]

It's probably more likely a hipster version of Morrison's The Filth. Only with more pretty young people and banter, and less giant attack sperms and nazi dolphins.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[arashi no garou]

As long as we're comparing Firefly to anime, let's not forget about Cowboy Bebop. Cowboys in space with a "girl in a box" concept as well (Faye Valentine awakened from Cryo-Sleep) though I think the character of Edward is a closer parallel to the flawed-genius teenager of Firefly's River Tam.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[sammy baby]

Holy crap, I had totally suppressed my knowledge of that comic until you just brought it up.

Now I'm going to feel all ishy again.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Provocateur]

River had a last name? I guess I better turn in my geek badge, then.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Spacejock]

If the plot is like that in my novel Hal Spacejock Just Desserts then I'll be cursing a little, under my breath, politely.

I know it's just random coincidence, and I'm not really fussed about it. The only problem is that my novels are published in Australia and my agent is seeking a US deal. If the plot is felt to be too similar to that of a Joss Whedon show, guess who wins?

Fortunately it's just the antagonist's plot in book three of my series, so it's not like the entire premise of the novels has been yanked from under my feet. I'm just glad my character doesn't have a lightning-shaped scar.

Actually, when I first heard about Firefly I thought "shit, this could be bad news for Hal." Fortunately, the series was nothing like my books, even though the main character is a trader with a beat-up ship. (And I'd already gone to painstaking lengths to avoid any similarities to the Star Wars(tm)(r)(c) universe.)

And for the record, I wrote Hal Just Desserts during 2003. First publication 2004. The original Hal Spacejock novel I started in 1994.

And the other funny is that a recent Doctor Who episode mirrored an airlock/elevator cleansing gag I first wrote into Hal Spacejock in 1999. Never mind, I beat them to the punch too.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Dorceon]

Wasn't there a more obvious (and more terrible) Cowboy Bebop knock-off called Starhunter? One of those awful syndicated jobs, I think.

Re:Sounds somewhat like Gunslinger Girl.

[Anonymous Coward]

River had a last name? I guess I better turn in my geek badge, then.

She was Simon Tam's sister...

Watch out for episode 3

[LiquidCoooled]

In episode 3 Echo downloads a music track and spends the rest of the episode evading the RIAA.

Re:Watch out for episode 3

[Tackhead]

> In episode 3 Echo downloads a music track and spends the rest of the episode evading the RIAA.

For bonus points, the track is "Still Alive", but because this is a Joss Whedon series, there's at least one invocation of Rule 34 with "Eliza Dushku, the Companion Cube, and the Portal Gun".

Re:Watch out for episode 3

[nizcolas]

That internet hate machine article has certainly changed the face of slashdot.

Re:Watch out for episode 3

[Anonymous Coward]

> invocation of Rule 34 with "Eliza Dushku, the Companion Cube, and the Portal Gun".

That's a challenge to invoke Rule 35 if I ever heard one.

///anonymous
//cowardly
/we are legion, etc.

Re:Watch out for episode 3

[wezeldog]

Yeah, but Fox will air episode 3 first and we'll have absolutely no clue what the show is about. I'll wait for the complete season on DVD which will have ~13 episodes 4 of which were never aired. Then I'll see the Paramount motion picture in which the entire cast dies when the Serenity crash lands into the dorm (of course the Serenity's time-travel guest appearance is the result of a sling-shot around the Sun or a black hole or whatever happens to be convenient in the 'verse).

Not a troll

[Pojut]

Just an opinion.

Am I the only one that cannot stand a single thing this man has ever released? All his shit feels the same and looks the same...like shit.

Seriously now. The writing is horrid, he doesn't make me care about ANY of his characters, the situations that occur are just ridiculous...I know that many MANY people love his work, but man...I have yet to see anything from this guy that I even remotely enjoy...

Re:Not a troll

[jcicora]

Wow, I thought everyone who would fall in /.'s target market would be in the target market for Buffy and Firefly. You must be the exception that proves the rule!

Re:Not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, no. Some of us like plots to make sense and be internally consistent, and have character interaction unpolluted by Dawson's Creek.

Re:Not a troll

[geekoid]

I hated Buffy. A Lot.

Angel was intersting, and different and we found in enjoyable, as was Firefly.

"The writing is horrid..."

Yeah, you're about the only one.

Re:Not a troll

[DrSkwid]

count me out, Buffy was interesting for about 1 series

Re:Not a troll

[jgarra23]

Am I the only one that cannot stand a single thing this man has ever released? All his shit feels the same and looks the same...like shit.

I agree. His dialog (not to be confused with ideas) is childish and his ideas well... they're pedantic at best.

Re:Not a troll

[Phroggy]

Buffy was painful, but funny enough that I enjoyed it anyway, and the crazy stuff they did (an episode without dialog, an episode without music, an episode with the dialog in Swedish, an Rodgers & Hammerstein style over-the-top musical, a dream sequence where a character is walking between sets in ways that seem impossible, killing a regular character in the middle of a season, introducing a new character who "had always been there" with no explanation whatsoever until several episodes later, etc. etc.) is what made me a big fan.

Angel was just as painful, but tried to take itself way too seriously. Had good moments, but nothing that really hooked me. Firefly was brilliant.

Re:Not a troll

[Planesdragon]

Am I the only one that cannot stand a single thing this man has ever released? Yes. You watched the Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie, and have never given anything else he did a fair shot.

Buffy/Angel, Firefly/Serenity, and Astonishing X-Men are about as different as you can get and still be in the genre of "fantasy." Sorry, but if you dismiss them all as the same ball of wax, and you don't have some obnoxious dislike of fantasy, it's true.

Why, yes, he tends to write about characters who are in conflict with "The Man". And they usually have some exceptional ability. And they're usually ensemble pieces. That's because he's writing fantasy.

Re:Not a troll

[geekoid]

When I read Buffy scripts I am like "Hey, thats pretty funny!" And it's a genre I generally find entertaining it's surprising I don't like it. I think it was the actors.

Re:Not a troll

[sycomonkey]

I have to assume there are some people who feel the way you do. Thankfully, a person's work does not have to be liked by all or even most of society to allow that person to continue making things. He just needs enough fans. And he has quite a few fans. So, yeh, I think that while your opinion is certainly not unique, it is also not relevant. You're best bet would be to ignore him and let those of us who do like his stuff to enjoy it.

Re:Not a troll

[Pojut]

By looks and feels the same, I meant that you could play me a clip of a show I have never seen before (real life example of this was how I was introduced to firefly) and I will know that it is Joss Whedon that was behind it.

Just like you can tell if a game is on a Nintendo system, you can tell if something was made by Joss Whedon. Now, in some cases this is not a bad thing when you can easily identify someone's work...in this case, I don't like his style. Sorry.

Re:Not a troll

[Pojut]

In my group of friends, I am the only one that doesn't like his work...trust me, I get more prodding for not liking his stuff than they get for liking it.

I will never tell someone they are dumb or stupid or whatever childish insult you wish to use simply because they like a show/movie/game/etc. Unfortunately, most people don't grant those same manners towards me...beh, whatever. The man has made a good living making a lot of people happy. He's done something I can't do, and for that at least I can give him a nod...regardless, you won't see me liking his stuff.

Re:Not a troll

[Nasarius]

Uh...not counting this, Joss Whedon has done a grand total of two different universes, Buffy/Angel and Firefly. It's not really surprising that you can recognize his work.

Re:Not a troll

[crabpeople]

Yes a teenage vampire, why wouldnt everyone like that?

Serenity was good because it was libertarians in space. Buffy sucked balls because it wasnt true to the movie. I watched the first buffy episode but kristy swanson wasnt in it so who the hell cares. I mean they didnt even use donald sutherland! it was a big let down and I vowed never to watch it again.

Re:Not a troll

[uniquename72]

Buffy was interesting for about 1 series That's good, because it was only one series.
Unless you count one spinoff as part of that series, in which case, Buffy was 1.5 series.

Or maybe 1.4, since Angel didn't last as long.

Re:Not a troll

[petrus4]

I hated Buffy. A Lot.

I get the feeling that this was a much more standard reaction than a lot of people realise. Sarah Michelle was very much an acquired taste; people seemed to either really love her, or really hate her...no two ways about it.

To me she was a method actor in exactly the same sense as William Shatner, David Hasselhoff, or Keanu Reeves; in the sense that she played the same individual...herself...no matter what the character's name was. For Buffy, that worked, because the personality was almost an exact match for the character...which was essentially a study of the Aries/Pisces contrast; or in non-astrological terms, a personality with a hard, fairly militaristic exterior, and a soft, much more vulnerable interior. It shows up very clearly, both in the actor's chart, and in the character's portrayal at times on the show...especially during her involvement with Angel.

I'm not saying I always liked her much either...but I understood the dichotomy. It was present in Angel's case as well, although in his case it wasn't really interesting because said dichotomy was more or less expected from a male in his position. What made it so interesting in Buffy's case is that she was female.

I think it could be safely said that in a universal sense, Angel was also a much more likeable/accessible character than Buffy, particularly for males. That was the other thing for me that actually made watching Buffy worthwhile at times...that I actually had to struggle a bit mentally to understand her position in order to be able to sympathise with her. She usually had reasons for behaving the way she did, from the perspective of her own logical/cognitive framework; sometimes it was just said model that wasn't immediately obvious.

Re:Not a troll

[Belacgod]

Bah, the movie was grade-b classic camp. The show was a completely different genre. If the show had a different name nobody would even connect the two at all.

Re:Not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't stand any of his work either, but then again, I do not think any of it was intended for adults. More likely it's for teenage children. His writing is indicative of this, as it's extremely shallow, the dialog reflects language use that could believably be popular among kids and the subject matter is clearly focused towards teen issues.

I personally do not know anyone who actually likes anything created by this guy, so you are far from alone in your feelings.

Re:Not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

And here you are dismissing every person's opinion based upon your own and/or the small clique of Joss lovers...

Congratulations, you're a hypocrite. GJ!

Re:Not a troll

[arth1]

Whedon has also committed atrocities like Waterworld (where he rewrote the script) and Speed (where he rewrote the dialogue).

I understand that fans always have a hard time accepting criticism of their idol, and that there's knee-jerk reactions, but for Whedon, I think the instant and disproportional strong defense is because no-one will ever admit to having fallen for hype.
Out of the 250,000 or so people who actually watched Firefly when it aired, you'll find 2,000,000 of them here on Slashdot...

Not wanting to be overly cynical

[fictionpuss]

But how many episodes before this invariably gets canceled?

Re:Not wanting to be overly cynical

[MBCook]

I think the Family Guy episode "North by North Quahog" is appropriate here:

Peter: Everybody, I got bad news - we've been cancelled.

Lois: Oh, no. Peter, how can they do that?

Peter: Well, unfortunately, Lois, there's just no room on the schedule. We just gotta accept the fact that Fox has to make room for terrific shows like: Dark Angel, Titus, Undeclared, Action, That 80's Show, Wonderfalls, Fastlane, Andy Richter Controls The Universe, Skin, Girls Club, Cracking Up, The Pits, Firefly, Get Real, Freaky Links, Wanda At Large, Costello, The Lone Gunmen, A Minute With Stan Hooper, Normal Ohio, Pasadena, Harsh Realm, Keen Eddy, The Street, American Embassy, Cedric The Entertainer, The Tick, Louis and Greg The Bunny.

Lois: Is there no hope?

Peter: Well, I supposed if ALL those shows go down the tubes we might have a shot.

I'm with you. Good or not, it is going to get canned. There are a group of good shows in that block above (Lone Gunmen, Andy Richter, Firefly, Keen Eddy, Greg The Bunny). Some deserved it, but Fox has a history of mismanaging shows (mostly: putting them in a time slot that is basically guaranteed to get preempted by a game every week).

Re:Not wanting to be overly cynical

[Sancho]

Here's my rant on this one.

--snip--
The show, however, is going to be on Fox. And Fox has a history of screwing up. A list of my fears:
- The show is called Dollhouse. No one who will be interested in the show is going to see it in their cablebox guide, wonder what it is, turn it on, and get hooked. The people who are going to turn it on and get hooked are 8 year old girls and soccer moms. And maybe people who saw Welcome to the Dollhouse. This means that the show must rely entirely on promotions and word-of-mouth.
- Fox tends to under-promote shows. Fox also tends to move new shows to new timeslots constantly in an effort either to mitigate the damage of an apparently failing show, or to try to get new viewers. Neither of these is good for shows.
- Fox tends to stick genre shows in a dead time slot. Friday nights at 8 is the norm for sci-fi. Every time it happens, I visualize an executive at Fox saying, "Hey, this is a show for geeks. Geeks have nothing better to do on a Friday night than to watch TV. Let's not clutter up the schedule by putting this somewhere where it might get a wider audience, let's just toss it on Friday." They also forget that geeks tend to DVR shows or buy them on iTunes/Unbox/Video-Site-du-Jour. This is a deadly combination that leads to devastating viewership when combined with a crappy rating system like Nielson.
- It's Joss Whedon and Tim Minnear. They are cursed when it comes to Fox.
- It's Joss Whedon. He commands a fairly high salary, and Dushku probably does too. The show sounds like it's going to be rampant with special effects and stunt work. This means it's going to be way more expensive than your typical hour-long drama, much less a reality show that could fill the same spot and rake in tons more money.
- Did I mention that it's called Dollhouse?
--snip--

I'm wary of this one. Joss tends to have good writing, even if you don't care for the content itself. He's smart, snappy, and witty. But there's a lot going against this show, and I'm not sure it's going to last much longer than the last Tim Minear project on Fox.

Re:Not wanting to be overly cynical

[maryjanecapri]

considering firefly was one of (if not THE) best series to ever hit the networks...if the sci fi channel has anything to do with it, it'll last one season and then disappear. only to have a huge fan base, spin off an outstanding movie, and have the masses wondering "why?".

Re:Not wanting to be overly cynical

[mrmeval]

It's a ludicrous ripoff of Manchurian Candidate/Bourne Identity/Quantum Leap etc with an incredibly stupid title on a network that's butchered too many good shows to be trusted.

Re:Not wanting to be overly cynical

[DJ-Dodger]

There's already a petition to keep Fox from canceling it.

http://www.petitiononline.com/DOLLHAUS/petition.html

Re:Not wanting to be overly cynical

[st0rmshad0w]

Funny, when I first heard it was called Dollhouse I immediately wondered if it was related to one of the 2 mature audiences independant comics of the same name.

Joss Whedon and Fox

[neurosis101]

That's a winning combo, Whedon and Fox. I'm sure this project will end up just as well as the last one!

But really, didn't he say he wouldn't work with Fox again?

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[geekoid]

Fox is just a company. Perhaps the people had a beef with are gone?

Or they gave him a truck load of cash.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[Black Copter Control]

Fox isn't always as stupid as they were with firefly -- just usually.

It's possible that Joss has added some kind of disclaimer about being able to regain copyright on the series if Fox doesn't run it for at least N seasons. That's what killed the Firefly resurrection -- Fox having a death-grip on the first shows made the whole project into something of a zombie -- nobody else was willing to take a risk only to have SCO reap all of the benefits.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[owlnation]

He did. But the difference here is that Eliza has the deal with Fox, and she's hired him (and Tim Minear). At least they have 7 episodes guaranteed. It's more than Drive ever got.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Just what I was thinking. I like most of Whedon's projects, but the guy sure knows how to whine. I mean, I wish Firefly hadn't been canceled too, but c'mon, it cost a million bucks an episode to make and it was unpopular (until the DVDs came out AFTER it was canceled). They even sprang for a feature film, which in turn lost money... and Joss wouldn't stop talking to the press about how much it sucked working with Fox. Dude, they footed the bill! They risked a tens of millions of dollars on a feature film for a canceled TV show!

I'm guessing there's a REASON that Whedon keeps coming back to Fox... and it's that despite all his complaints (many of which I'm sure are valid), they're the only ones with enough cash and enough interest to buy what he's selling.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[jhw539]

Battered writer syndrome?

I don't have much sympathy for him - his Buffy and Angel runs show the guy knows how to play the game. Even if Firefly was killed a few seasons early, Buffy was killed a few season late. He's not really a rube walking into Fox's spinning blades of ineptness.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[thittesd0375]

Or it was Universal that made the film and Fox had nothing to do with it.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction: Universal footed the bill for Serenity, not Fox. So it's not like Fox gave it a second chance, for which I'm sure he would have likely been grateful in the end. But they didn't, so his issues towards Fox were still upstanding.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[geekoid]

Of it had low ratings, it was moved around without notice and often put in the worse possible spot for any show. I mean that in the most literal sense.

For the record I hated Buffy,and if I had realized the same person did firefly I never would have bothered.
It was the reason I tried Angel, which I also enjoyed.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[im_mac]

Hollywood probably would've said that Serenity lost money, regardless of its success. Forrest Gump lost money, at least on paper, and it grossed over $600million.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[no_pets]

Drive had more episodes filmed than what aired. Maybe not 7 although I'm thinking that it was 5 or 6. Anyway, best of luck to Joss, Eliza and this new show.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[shiva]

I'll never forgive FOX for airing The Train Job, probably the weakest episode of the show, before the pilot Joss wrote. I'm a big Joss Whedon fan and I even stopped watching Firefly after that. Only much later, after I borrowed the DVDs and saw the real pilot did I thought that the show was something special.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[morari]

I'm guessing there's a REASON that Whedon keeps coming back to Fox. Wasn't the Buffy series a WB project? I recall that network being relatively new and/or unnoticed until around that time. Personally, I found Buffy to only be tolerable for the first couple of seasons and was never particularly fond of Firefly. That Angel spin-off was pretty bad too. I really wonder why everyone is always so engrossed with news concerning this guy, actually. *shrugs*

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[itsdapead]

For the record I hated Buffy,and if I had realized the same person did firefly I never would have bothered.

Yeah, its a pity the publicity for Serenity went out of its way to make it look like "From the creator of Buffy... Buffy in spaaace!!!" (UK posters & DVD cover all featured Summer doing her best Buffy/Faith impression). Pity it didn't occur to Universal that quite a lot of people who were turned off by the idea of a teen comedy-drama about a vampire-slaying ex-cheerleader** might actually be open to a space western.

** P.S. Don't shoot me - I liked BTVS (because of the dryly witty dialogue and nothing to do with Alyslon Hannigan, of course).

P.P.S. I guess "From the writer of Alien, Resurrection! No, Wait! Yeah the Alien/human hybrid sucked but the mercenary crew were cool weren't they and the guys in this film are a bit like them..." wasn't snappy enough.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[tm2b]

Just what I was thinking. I like most of Whedon's projects, but the guy sure knows how to whine.

Well, yeah. He's a writer. If you see a writer who doesn't whine a lot, it just means that they're not whining in public. The only thing they're better at than explicitly whining is taking their frustrations out on their characters.

And that's a good thing.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[Scudsucker]

I wish Firefly hadn't been canceled too, but c'mon, it cost a million bucks an episode to make and it was unpopular

Mmmm bullshit. You take a show that has to be watched in order, show it out of order, and constantly mess with the time slot, and it fails to pick up viewers? Who knew? The part that I don't understand is why greenlight the show and spend a bunch of money on it, only to deliberately run it into the ground so it gets canceled. Especially when they canceled Dark Angel because they wanted to use the money to make Firefly.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[adona1]

The film almost made its budget back with the cinematic release and still sells well on DVD. The only way it didn't turn a profit is with shady movie studio accounting.

Man, I'd love to be able to submit the tax returns those guys must have ;)

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[gobbo]

Man, I'd love to be able to submit the tax returns those guys must have ;)

There are at least three budgets to every production: The Promise, which gets everyone involved and helps set rates, The TaxMan, which is public, and The Secret, which is what really happens. This scales all the way down to small indies. From what I've seen and heard, big-budget movies have many variants on the promise and the secret.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[abes]

You are completely entitled to your opinions. But I'm sorry. You're wrong. Completely and utterly wrong wrong wrong.

First mistake. Buffy was in fact one of the best televisions shows made. It was witty, had really well written dialogue, complex characters, and story arcs that lasted the entire season (with references that could go back several years). However, because humor was crafted for those who watched the show serially, and so much was lost for people who watched the show occasionally and/or out of order.

Yes, the idea of a vampire slayer by the name of Buffy turned off a lot of people from the show. Understandably. My understanding is that originally it was a joke for Joss, and he was going to kill her at the end of the first season (permanently).

Angel was fun, but was never as deep or complex as Buffy. I always suspected it was to counter the seriousness that became Buffy in the later seasons.

Firefly had amazing characters, incredible interplay between those characters, as well thought out plots. While the concept of a space-western might (once again) be a bit strange (and already done [cowboy bebop, for example]), Joss made it is own.

Joss takes big risks. He seems to like to put himself in very difficult situations to make the challenge interesting. For example one Buffy episode had no speech whatsoever, while another was a musical (having never written a musical before). He managed to make those two episodes some of the best episodes in the entire show.

So, yeah, Buffy is a kinda a crazy idea. It was a joke. But he managed to make it amazing. Sure, space cowboys have been done before, but he made a compelling universe of his own to tell the stories. For anyone who is on the fence about these shows, it's well worth watching the shows in order, and really giving them a chance.

  So, maybe Dollhouse isn't the best title. And maybe the plot has been done before. But Joss has shown amazing creativity, intelligence, and insight which gives him the ability to turn out some of the best shows ever made.

And maybe this sounds a little too much like a love poem to Joss. Well, maybe it is.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[Google85]

It is not like Eliza had better experience with Fox, they canceled 'Tru Calling' at the beginging of its 2nd season after signing up for a whole season!
They also refused to air the last episode thus creating a situation were it aired all over the world before the US...

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[squiggleslash]

Fox wasn't stupid with Firefly. They gave it a chance, it didn't look like it was going to be a smash hit success, and decided that if it was a choice between trying something else or gambling that Firefly might possibly turn-around, trying something else seemed more appropriate. Fox has a finite amount of money. That it actually bothers to take gambles like it did on Firefly (and the numerous other failures Fox has greenlighted) is a sign it has far more integrity than its critics give it credit for.

While Firefly's numbers rose after cancellation, they never reached the same levels as that of the show they replaced, and while Firefly fans tend to suggest the show had some kind of resurgence of interest after it disappeared from the screens, the evidence is poor - the (medium budget) movie barely took box office receipts as high as its budget (meaning it made a 50% loss), and the show's DVD sales were only high because they contained previously un-aired episodes. Fox certainly appears to have made the right decision to cancel the show.

If Fox had been as smart as Firefly fans claim it should have been then Firefly would never have had the green light. Fox would have continued with Dark Angel which already had a substantial audience and which Firefly replaced.

I must confess to being surprised most of Fox's critics don't "get it" when it comes to the complaints of constant cancellations of good shows. Those good shows would never have existed on other networks. The reason you got emotionally attached to them in the first place is because Fox tried them out. Alas, in the majority of cases, the shows really didn't have the audiences needed to keep them viable.

I'm not suggesting there aren't things Fox could do better, but to assume this show is going to be treated badly because Fox will do something wrong is inappropriate - the reality is that this show stands no chance of seeing the light of day in a parallel universe where Fox doesn't exist. They appear to be the one network willing to take major gambles. Good on them. And if the show is cancelled after a few episodes, just be glad you got the chance to see them at all.

Re:Joss Whedon and Fox

[mbourgon]

Ya know, I _wanted_ to like Drive. But the show was MEAN - it had a cruel streak. That was enough reason to stop watching.

Hey...

[sponglish]

Thought he swore he'd never do another program for FOX again after the treatment Firefly got http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joss_Whedon#_note-3!? And what's wrong with the other networks that only FOX will run Whedon's stuff lately?

Another show about some "company"

[aquaepulse]

I realize that serialized mystery/thriller/drama shows are all the rage (Lost, Prison Break, Life, Heroes). But its getting outrageous. How many malevolent companies/groups/governments/cabals can we be expected to tolerate.

Re:Another show about some "company"

[SydShamino]

How many malevolent companies/groups/governments/cabals can we be expected to tolerate.

Given how many we tolerate in Real Life, I expect we'll tolerate a bunch more of them on TV.

Re:Another show about some "company"

[hyades1]

You mean besides the one currently in the White House?

Could be good....

[Contrabandwidth]

... Sounds a little like William Gibson. Molly and the puppet bit at the end of neuromancer.

Re:Could be good....

[An ominous Cow art]

Jack Chalker had something like this in his "Four Lords of the Diamond" books, too.

Re:Could be good....

[VAXcat]

Sounds like Aphrodite IX, a comic book from a few years back.

Re:Could be good....

[OctavianMH]

In fact, it looks much more like Global Frequency... a pretty great comic where there are 1,000 experts in this or that scattered around the world, who are brought together for specific missions. No memory wipe though. Global Frequency WAS turned into a pilot, but not picked up. Good potential there, probably bad execution? Or just short-sighted execs, as usual!

Sounds familiar

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounded a lot better the first time I saw it. When it was called "Pretender".

Just extrapolate

[benhocking]

First data point: Buffy
Second data point: Firefly
...
...extrapolating...
...
This show has already been canceled.

Re:Just extrapolate

[littlekosh]

Joking aside, Fox has already put more into this than one might expect from them.

According to an interview with Michael Ausiello, Whedon originally said he was interested in writing just a pilot and Fox went ahead and bought seven episodes. Also, the network side of things (as far as personnel go) is significantly different from when Firefly got canceled.

Re:Just extrapolate

[AJWM]

Well, technically second data point was Angel, with third data point Firefly.

Not that that changes your conclusion.

Re:Just extrapolate

[keith_nt4]

I realize there will be an inevitable flood of "already been canceled" comments (as there was on dig last night) but just remember one thing: Angel (produced by fox) kept going and going and going. I can't be the only one who watched all five seasons (right?). Jeeze man...That show went on way past it's prime. Every gimmick imaginable to keep it going a little longer. I mean sure Deleria was hot and all but...damn.

Don't be too hard them is my point. They don't actually have that bad of a record. Seven seasons and five seasons isn't really THAT bad (for Buffy and Angel respectively).

Re:Just extrapolate

[Belgand]

So is it also the same (as far as personnel go) as it was when they canceled Arrested Development in spite of it's many, many Emmys?

Even with Firefly they only showed about seven episodes, out-of-order, and crushed it. They also canceled Family Guy, Futurama... need I go on?

Fox is just plain notorious for canceling excellent shows with a strong fanbase. I'd think that after his terrible treatment last time he'd know better than to even consider working with them. Go to somebody like the CW who at least let Buffy run for a damn long time and are desperate enough for something good to keep them afloat.

What also isn't going to help it is the name. Much like Firefly/Serenity had a name that made a lot of sense to you if you already knew the story this promises to be a case where only fans will understand the name. Everyone else will likely not be interested in the program based on the name alone and will avoid it. I mean, if I didn't already know the reasoning and that Joss was behind it I'd probably have little to no interest in a show called "Dollhouse". Hell, I'd probably assume it was some lame new reality show.

Re:Just extrapolate

[adona1]

So name it "Joss Whedon's Dollhouse", in the way that Wes Craven & Quentin Tarantino 'present' films that they don't have much to do with. The fact that it is being made by Joss and stars Eliza Dushku has me already wanting to see it....so they should capitalise on that. Sure, it makes it look a bit tackier, but it would be oh, so nice to see a Whedon series that wasn't canceled prematurely ;)

Re:Just extrapolate

[Eskarel]

It's not really just fox though. During the time period when most of those shows got canceled most of the networks were canning shows if they weren't immediately successful, or randomly changing the time-slot. Firefly wasn't there yet when it got cancelled, but I think it would have been. The movie certainly was.

I don't really know what to say about Family Guy, I have no idea why they cancelled that, though they did bring it back(along with American Dad which isn't as funny).

Futurama though, was a lost cause, it wasn't what Matt Groening wanted to make, and if it hadn't been for the Simpsons, Fox never would have aired it in the first place. Neither party was happy with it existing and so it went.

Re:Just extrapolate

[Dun Malg]

I don't really know what to say about Family Guy, I have no idea why they cancelled that

Because it's the same five unfunny jokes over, and over, and over again.

, though they did bring it back Unfortunately.

Re:Just extrapolate

[sTalking_Goat]

why does everyone leave out Angel? Some of his best work...

Re:Just extrapolate

[mcsuper5]

BtVS was never on the CW, it ran 5 seasons on the WB, and 2 on UPN.

I'm glad to see JW decided to return to TV. But who names his shows?!

Re:Just extrapolate

[Atario]

Wow. 5, Insightful? Really? It's insightful to say "I hate that show, it sucks"? Great jorb.

Re:Just extrapolate

[dpastern]

Buffy The Vampire Slayer ran its full seven seasons to the end as Joss planned it. Angel, sadly, only ran to 5 seasons, despite being a more grown up show, dealing with adult issues (Buffy was more a comedy, although it had its serious moments).

Firefly was a brilliant series, undeserved of a quick exit.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Joss is a brilliant writer, and his direction isn't that far behind it either. I always wondered why Aliens IV was my favourite story of the series, it wasn't until a few days ago that I learned that Joss wrote it. Pretty much explains everything to me...

Every single Joss TV show has had a huge cult following, the fans love the shows, and in reality, it's the fans that count. Well, that's how it should be, sadly, American TV land is a very very sad place...the few bright sparks that make it onto the TV get canned quickly, the absolute crap and crud makes it and stays on way past its expiry date. Go figure.

I'd love to see Joss return to Buffy and re-do the original pilot movie with Sarah Michelle Gellar and a corrected story to tie it in with the series. I'm not saying the Kirsty Swanson movie was bad, it wasn't, but the TV series was more true to Joss' vision. I'd like to see Angel run its natural course, not be cut at the end of Season 5 and you don't know what happens to the characters that you've grown to love and care for as a viewer. I'd like to see Firefly given a chance to run its course proper.

It's a sad pity that Joss doesn't have the financial clout of George Lucas - where he can stick his finger up at Hollywood etc and do his own stuff, his own way, and know that the fans will swarm to it.

The sooner that Hollywood etc remove the brain dead goons at the top that try to run it badly (and don't even succeed at that imho), the better. TV might get better, TV shows that deserve air time might actually get air time, and the fans might actually be happy.

Dave

Re:Just extrapolate

[DannyO152]

I'd guess it was based on an Ibsen play.

Re:Just extrapolate

[bitty]

Go to somebody like the CW...

You mean the network that absolutely destroyed Veronica Mars for no good reason?

Re:Just extrapolate

[rasputin465]

I'd think that after his terrible treatment last time he'd know better than to even consider working with them.

Funny you mention that. I read an interview with Joss following the release of Serenity, and they were discussing how much fan support there was after the cancellation of Firefly and how it facilitated the production of Serenity. He said something to the effect of Fox was willing to consider discussions about bringing back the series, but he had made a personal vow to never, ever, again work with Fox. So now I read about Dollhouse and ask myself, "WTF?".

Re:Just extrapolate

[kalirion]

Topics like this always make me remember this family guy bit.

Re:Just extrapolate

[Belgand]

Yeah, I recalled having heard him say something to effect myself, but not having a source on it I just decided not to mention it. It'd be interesting to track that down.

Re:Just extrapolate

[Belgand]

True, but since CW is the combination of WB and UPN... well, it ran on CW ;)

Re:Just extrapolate

[dwye]

> I'm not saying the Kirsty Swanson movie was bad

That's all right, I have said it enough times to make up for you. Even Rutger Hauer was bad in it.

> and you don't know what happens to the characters that you've grown to love and care for as a viewer.

They die, while attempting to die heroically.

Gunn was already fatally wounded, with 10 minutes left if he was careful (which he had no intention of being). Angel and Spike had both decided to go out in blazes of glory, and Illyria was too devastated (in her inhuman way) by Wesley's death to stop fighting, even if the Legion of Hell decided to pull back after the two vampires were destroyed.

If you really didn't know what happened to them, then I also should tell you that, at the end of their movie, Butch and Sundance die, ripped to pieces by a couple companies of well placed soldiers.

Or were you writing about Harmony, Eve, Anne (ex-Lily, ex-Chanterelle), or Krevlornswath?

> It's a sad pity that Joss doesn't have the financial clout of George Lucas

Which Lucas would never have had, without a hit like American Graffitti. Alas, Joss Whedon has never had his.

Re:Just extrapolate

[dwye]

> Every single Joss TV show has had a huge cult following, the
> fans love the shows, and in reality, it's the fans that count.

No, it is the ratings. The last time that shows were NOT produced just to get ratings, they were put on to please their sponsers, the cigarette companies, and they soon wanted ratings, too.

That is the way that it is, on comercial TV. And if you think that Buffy or Angel would have been made on PBS, I need the number of your dealer.

Seriously, he never got the ratings up high enough for the small networks that he produced for, let alone the majors. If series could be run as Pay-Per-View, maybe fanatical fans would be enough. So far, no one has done that model on a real basis.

Re:Just extrapolate

[dpastern]

> That's all right, I have said it enough times to make up for you. Even Rutger Hauer was bad in it.

It wasn't that bad. A bad movie has no redeeming features, no good parts. The Buffy movie had a few good parts, albeit I really stress the word, few ;-)

> They die, while attempting to die heroically.

You don't know this. Joss and Co. had plans for a seasons 6 and 7 for Angel, so I think it's safe to assume that at least Angel doesn't die. Yes, Gunn was almost certainly going to die, although perhaps Illyria would have done something magically. I was both surprised and saddened to see Wesley die, but that's the way it is. People die in real life as well, so it makes sense to make a TV series realistic by killing off popular characters, for the right reaons, and with the right timing.

My biggest regret was Joss killing off Anya - she was my favourite female Buffy character, she was just wacky in that part. I would have preferred to have seen Anya live, and her and Xander rekindle their love/marriage, with the realistion that life is short, and that marriage between the two of them, despite their individual fears, would have been the right thing.

Krevlornswath was my favourite Angel character - I just found him an enormously fun character to watch.

> Which Lucas would never have had, without a hit like American Graffitti. Alas, Joss Whedon has never had his.

I really beg to differ here. Joss has been a much better director than George, and a much, much, much better writer. Both have had original stories that built up into their own worlds, with dedicated fans. That's about the only similarity. Star Wars sold George Lucas, not American Grafitti.

Dave

Re:Just extrapolate

[dwye]

> They die, while attempting to die heroically.

You don't know this.

Yes, I do. OTOH, I think that much of season 5 was pushed up from the end of his planned arc. My guess is that the Illyria arc was the planned end, but compressed a couple of episodes' worth. As presented, it was way too much of a railroad.

> > Which Lucas would never have had, without a hit like
> > American Graffitti. Alas, Joss Whedon has never had his.
>
> I really beg to differ here. Joss has been a much better director than George,

Unimportant which is better. Orson Welles was better than either; the problem is the movie and TV businesses are BUSINESSES, not the Olympic Play competition (original Olympics, that is). Neither Welles nor Whedon ever had a hit that made lots of money (especially for the cost). Lucas had a very profitable hit with American Graffitti, which he was able to parley into making Star Wars, which went through the roof.

Re:Just extrapolate

[dpastern]

I doubt it, there are many references to an Angel 6 series, including adapted comics for it:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=110457

See the first where it mentions David Fury and what was meant to happen in Season 6. Some things were pushed forward as you mention (Wesley's death), but there was life in our heroes after that last filmed episode.

Dave

Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's refreshing to see a new series by Joss where the main character is not a girl with superhuman martial art abilities taking on nearly unsurmountable tasks while not being aware of the subtle manipulations of an unknown dark and nefarious nemesis.... Oh wait.

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[Reverend528]

If he's doing a new show, does that mean he's giving up on that space vampirate movie that he's been trying to make?

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, angel is a girl?

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I don't know...

That's a bit like accusing Stan Lee of over-exploiting the "nerdy anti-hero who gains supernatural powers from a science mishap (often radioactive)" construct.

One of the main things Joss has going for him, as a writer, is his use of strong female protagonists. That is refreshing.

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[IronChef]

Ack, why Faith? There's good slutty, and there's bad slutty...

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[LordLucless]

Can't really say that about Firefly. Ok, in the feature film after the series, you might have a point. But for the duration of the series, River wasn't a superhuman martial artist, not the main character, not really any unsurmountable tasks, and the dark and nefarious nemesis (the "hands of blue" guys) weren't really developed in the first season.

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[sexconker]

Strong female protagonists isn't refreshing.

Have you seen any of the following movies?:

Aeon Flux?
Elektra?
Ultra Violet?
Resident Evil?
Underworld?
Dead or Alive?
Charlie's Angels?
Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
Catwoman?
(The list goes on...)

Every single "hot chick who can fight" movie sucks.

Giving female characters unrealistic strength and borderline super powers for no other reason than to highlight the fact that your character is a hot girl who can beat up men is not refreshing. It's been done. To death. Let's have the female character emasculate the male character, possibly by assaulting his testicles. How original.

A movie loses 1 star for me each time a man is hit in the testicles by a woman.
It's a dead give away that the writers simply had no ideas.

Not unique. Not refreshing. Dumb. Old. Insulting to my intelligence. Lazy writing.

Here's a handy dandy chart of how to write strong female characters, using only Ripley from the Alien movies.

Ripley from Alien, good.
Ripley from the sequels to Alien, bad.

A similar chart for strong male characters, using only Arnold.

Conan movies, Terminator 1 and 2, Commando, Predator, ... ... ..., good.
Terminator 3, Jingle all the Way, Kindergarten Cop, Junior, ... ... ..., bad.

Notice how Terminator 3 also has a horribly written and non-sensical "female" character.

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[bnenning]

"It has been pointed out to me that I have a problem making fiction that doesn't have super-powered adolescent girls in it. I don't care."
-Joss Whedon {Serenity commentary}

Me either.

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[Dr_Barnowl]

Of course he is. He's a whiny girl-man.

The dude is a vampire. And he doesn't even BITE people.

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[Scrameustache]

Ack, why Faith? There's good slutty, and there's bad slutty... She made Xander a man! Stop dissing the girl.

Re:Glad to see Whedon is doing something new...

[rho]

We can only hope it gets abused and cancelled.

If Firefly had made 5 seasons it would have been crap.

Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Sciros]

Joss Whedon usually has just about enough good ideas for not-quite-one season. Buffy started great, and ended terribly (though its first 3 seasons were decent). Angel started awesome as well, but then went down the toilet. Firefly was all sweet... except Serenity where Whedon got a chance to once again show that he doesn't understand his own characters well enough to make a sensible, logical conclusion.

Whedon's strength is his sarcastic dialogue, which I find enjoyable to an extent. He also has cool characters (which sometimes become totally uncool but at least they start off well) often enough. I just want this show to suffer the same fate as Firefly so it *doesn't* slowly go down the toilet the way Buffy and Angel did and leaves us with a permanently good impression (I try to ignore Serenity).

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[mholt108]

the best firefly episode was the last one ... serenity is a movie which is different
the best buffy is season 6
angel got better after season 2

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[unsigned integer]

Funny, I thought Angel was better in the 5th season, after he (Whedon) ditched whiny Connor and evil Cordelia. Plus we had Spike back - and that's always good for a laugh.

Not spoilers, past the statue of limitations. ;-)

What parts of Serenity weren't consistent? Leaving out the rewrite of River's escape among other things ...

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[moderatorrater]

I disagree. I feel the last two seasons of Angel were the best. I never watched Buffy, but I feel that Firefly was as close to perfect as a show can be, and Serenity was pretty good for a man who's only ever done TV.

Out of curiosity, what didn't you feel made sense about Serenity's conclusion? I thought it was good.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[jpfed]

Angel started awesome as well, but then went down the toilet. If you could bring yourself to watch the show after season four (which could be painful at times- Connor was very much Angel's Dawn), you would have been treated to some of the best that Joss has to offer. The last season of Angel was almost as good as the only season of Firefly. Wesley's arc throughout the whole series, and especially its culmination in the last season, was an excellent demonstration of what Joss can do if you give him enough time. I can only imagine what comparable achievements he could have reached if he had been given the opportunity with Firefly.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[91degrees]

Season 6 had Tabula Rasa and Once More with Feeling.

Season 3 had Earshot, and Graduation day, not to mention the whole Mayor thing, Faith, and Evil Willow.

Sorry, but my vote goes to S3.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[jollyreaper]

Joss Whedon usually has just about enough good ideas for not-quite-one season. Buffy started great, and ended terribly (though its first 3 seasons were decent). Angel started awesome as well, but then went down the toilet. Firefly was all sweet... except Serenity where Whedon got a chance to once again show that he doesn't understand his own characters well enough to make a sensible, logical conclusion. This is one of those points where I have to respectfully disagree. Buffy only started getting weak with the whole Initiative plot and even that wasn't all bad, it was like 50% of the way to greatness, it was just flawed. The whole Riley thing played out poorly, a combination of an actor who couldn't quite generate chemistry with the Buffster and some uneven writing and plotting with Adam. But man, there were some great moments. I'm still laughing about Spike's big reentry into the story. "Yeah, I'm the big bad, gonna paint this town red." Then ZAP! Bro got tazed.

I'm a fan of Buffy and Angel but I thought Firefly clicked on a level even beyond that. As for Serenity, I don't get what you mean about not understanding the characters. This was maybe a season's worth of plot development that had to be crammed into a movie format. Even at that, it was very well-done.

It's all a matter of opinion, of course, and I can understand people disliking Joss' work if they dislike his style. But I'd say that what he's done is a lot stronger than you're implying.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[justin12345]

I have to disagree as well. Buffy season 1 was terrible, 2 was ok, 3 great, 4 not as good as 3, 5 excellent, 6 a little tired, 7 overwrought and pretty bad. Angel just got better with each season.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Sciros]

Ah, I hate going into details because it would spoil the movie, but much of what I disliked about Serenity involved the events leading up to and including the final stand against the ------s. I'm talking about discarding character(s) for no good reason without a thought to developing them further (or doing them justice given their role in the show), having other character(s) react nonsensically, and so forth.

As for Angel and Buffy, I watched *every episode* of those shows and I feel that although they had their ups and downs throughout (and Angel did pick back up towards the end), I felt they started stronger than they ended. Buffy in particular became just painful to watch for me towards the end.

Anyway, yeah I really do feel that each show (and Firefly only if you count Serenity's last 15-20 min, heh... oh and that one episode where they defend a whorehouse from an evil band of chauvinists where Joss accidentally scripted an episode of A-Team) kinda outlived its "quality" time and delved into mediocrity. Joss is at his finest when doing more light-hearted, sarcastic writing and I think he should concentrate on it for Dollhouse. (Moments like the ending of the episode "Shindig" in Firefly really stand out as memorable to me.)

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Anonymous Coward]

and Serenity was pretty good for a man who's only ever done TV. Quite right. We don't talk about Alien Resurrection. Or the first Buffy.

captcha: mortify

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Sciros]

It had to do with the events that led up to and included the final stand against the ------s. So, the last 15-20 min of the show.

Mostly an uncalled-for, poorly-dramatized and completely unjustified killing-off of a character.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Donut Zeke]

First of all, he had nothing to do with the original Buffy movie. Secondly, he only wrote Alien Ressurection, and much of that movie's failure was that he was a cowriter and much of his work got ditched, as well as the acting.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[anagama]

First of all, he had nothing to do with the original Buffy movie

Writer.

Don't get me wrong, I have the Buffy, Angel, and Firefly boxed sets and enjoy them all, but it is not accurate to say that Joss wasn't involved in the Buffy movie.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Sciros]

Indeed you have me totally figured out. I am a fat, TV-watching fatass who watches way too much television. Seriously I can't stop laughing right now. That came so far out of left field I can't even think of anything witty to say. For those who want to know the man behind the mask, I'm one of those studly Russian latin ballroom dancers, and I watch Last One Standing and the Phoenix Suns and that's about it nowadays. I actually miss the days when there was a lot of stuff on TV I enjoyed watching, but back then I had more time to kill as well.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Donut Zeke]

As they say, the more you know. Though, my point still holds strong for Alien Resurrection. I, for one, absolutely hated the X-Men movie, which he wrote. However, I was reading an interview with him saying that it was basically the same thing, they dumped most of his writing and decided to use shit instead.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Macthorpe]

David Hayter wrote the X-Men movie.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Donut Zeke]

http://imdb.com/name/nm0923736/otherworks
Though that says he wrote an unused draft, many of his lines appeared in the film, e.g. "Do you know what happens to a toad when it gets struck by lightning?"

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[mxs]

Hrrm. I rather enjoyed Buffy Seasons 4 and 6, though 5 and 7 were not as good as 2 and 3 (still better than 1, IMO). In any case, it was always better than its competition at the time. Angel is a different show, and it kept fresh enough for me to enjoy it through to its end.
Personally I'd love this show to be another 7-season piece. It would be something to look forward to every week -- best in the time when Doctor Who is not on, so one gets year-round coverage of great stuff :)

While Serenity was a tad different than Firefly, I wouldn't dismiss it as bad by any means ... but it is probably best viewed as a separate thing from the TV show ...

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Nasarius]

The last *two* seasons of Angel? Seriously? Season 4 turned Angel into The Connor Show, with that fucking annoying little brat ruining nearly every episode. Even the actor who played Connor was apparently sick of him, saying each episode was pretty much whine, beat up on Angel, whine some more, no character development. And then there was the annoying/fake Cordy, with the ickiness of Cordy/Connor.

Season 5, though...wow. Spike, plus Amy Acker as Illyria, plus great plots. And probably one of the best season/series finales ever made.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[denalione]

I thought I was the only Firefly fan who didn't care for the movie. The series had a depth and breadth of character. It was balanced. The action, comedy, romance, drama were set well against one another. I sensed the downfall of the show (actually, I already knew it was canceled so I should say that I sensed what would have been the downfall of the show) when the guys with blue hands were killing people with a mysterious sonic doohickey. It reminded me of X-Files where best shows were the ones independent of the alien anthology and the anthology became a cumbersome dinosaur waiting to die.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[RedWizzard]

http://imdb.com/name/nm0923736/otherworks
Though that says he wrote an unused draft, many of his lines appeared in the film, e.g. "Do you know what happens to a toad when it gets struck by lightning?" Whedon claims only two lines were used from his script and the "lightning" line was not intended to have the style of delivery that it ended up with.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Stu Charlton]

Season 4 fares well on DVD, I find. It flows like a novel, the Angel v. Connor thing comes across as more tragic. It's a bit too downtrodden at times (like Buffy S6).

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Donut Zeke]

I read an interview that he said it was more than two lines, but they were all out of context. Though I did read about the delivery of the lightning line. I think it would have been better the way Whedon wrote it.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[SiChemist]

I always liked season 5 with the mysterious addition of Dawn and the death of Buffy season ender. Lots of goodness in that season.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[littlekosh]

You point out season 3 Evil Willow in a post where you say season 6 wasn't any good? What alternate reality do you come from and what happens from episode 19 on?

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[91degrees]

Season 6 was fine. I liked season 3 a lot more. Willow being all evil and veiney isn't the same as Willow being an evil vampire. And I felt a bit cheated by how the season 6 evil Willow was resolved.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[Mordaximus]

And probably one of the best season/series finales ever made. No sir. That distinction will always belong to Season 2 of Millennium, just for the final scene with Lara Means.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[moderatorrater]

Director. You can't compare movies where he was a writer or cowriter to a movie where he was the writer and director.

Re:Let's hope it's cancelled after 15 eps

[mvdwege]

While I do agree that Buffy Season 6 contains some of the best episodes (including "Once More..."), it suffers from lack of focus. While all preceding seasons had a logical arc leading up to a confrontation with the 'Big Bad', season 6 was hampered by the laughably inept Trio being set up as the Big Bad. Sorry, but they don't hold up a candle to The Master, Angelus and Adam.

There's also the character assassination of Jonathan. Come on, season 5 shows him as a quite powerful sorceror in his own right, only to reduce him to a doormat in Season 6.

Not to mention Joss' red-shirting of Tara. I understand he wanted to make Willow go off the deep end, but the way he chose was so arbitrary and against all conventions of drama, that he really destroys the suspension of disbelief. This is something of a weak spot of his apparently, witness what he did to Wash in Serenity.

Nope, season 6 ranks as a so-so season, together with season 4.

Mart

This reminds me of a animie

[Boap]

I do not remember the name of it but these little girls were brainwashed to forget their past memories and then were trained and sent out to do special operations.

Bets on how long it lasts?

[Grey_14]

I'll put a few bucks on 4 episodes, that seems to be the magic number, Worse is that Tim Minear is in on the project, he also does FANTASTIC work, but I swear fox has a hate on for the guy. Wonderfalls, The Inside and Drive are all his work, and all cancelled less than halfway through their seasons.

Re:Bets on how long it lasts?

[forkazoo]

I'll put a few bucks on 4 episodes, that seems to be the magic number, Worse is that Tim Minear is in on the project, he also does FANTASTIC work, but I swear fox has a hate on for the guy. Wonderfalls, The Inside and Drive are all his work, and all cancelled less than halfway through their seasons.

Why the hell are they still willing to deal with Fox? Seriously, I thought Tim Minnear swore off ever working with Fox again after Wonderfalls. They must be getting either a boat load full of money, or a contract with a lot of guarantees in writing.

Re:Bets on how long it lasts?

[Grey_14]

Actually I was thinking about this, afaik Whedon said he wouldn't work with fox after Firefly, and I wouldn't doubt Minear would say the same after wonderfalls, But this sounds like Eliza Dushku is under contract with Fox, and co-created the idea with Joss, she he's in because of her, and I read an interview that makes it sound like Joss dragged in Minear, neither really wanted to take it to fox, but as long as Dushku is involved they can't take it anywhere else. (too bad)

Re:Bets on how long it lasts?

[tm2b]

Nope.

What Minear actually said was:

If I end up being some little Americanized BBC, churning out limited series for DVD, and the people who employ me want to keep handing over 20 or 30 million dollars for me to do that, then I'll be perfectly content.

Gotta respect a man who makes the best out his reality.

Re:Bets on how long it lasts?

[ducomputergeek]

So who wants to take the over/under on this one....personally I'm going under...

Re:Bets on how long it lasts?

[DJ-Dodger]

Well he's got a 7 episode commitment from FOX so I'm going to go with "7 or over". :)

All my sins remembered

[at10u8]

A book by Joe Haldeman.

ideal for episodic TeeVee...

[happy_place]

The show sounds ideal for epidsode TeeVee... No need for character development, cuz it's wiped out at the end of the show. :)

--Ray

Oh not you don't , asshole

[geekoid]

I am NOT going to watch another show just to see the best, most clever, smartest and funniest person die.

Re:Oh not you don't , asshole

[jrronimo]

Fred?

Re:Oh not you don't , asshole

[maxume]

In real life, no one ever dies, their shows just get canceled.

Chuck Clone?

[Sperbels]

So we're going to get a version of Chuck, but with more hot chicks? God TV sucks. I want my Firefly back.

Re:Chuck Clone?

[cliath]

Dark Chuck... Chuck Angel? Which ever sounds better.

Cool!

[Jagunco]

What an innovative plot, I can't wait to watch this wonderful masterpiece!

River goes to college?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let him go back to Firefly!

They just started getting that universe up to speed, and then they kill it. They never gave it a chance. I slept on Firefly, but was really pulled in by Serenity. Got the DVDs and wanted more.

This sounds a lot like where they took River. I guess it could provide lots o mysteries that would be slowly revealed and the setting will probably be more likely to gin up the demographics that made Buffy a success.

Re:ideal for episodic TeeVee...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasnt that also the plot of JOE90? Programmable hypno kid...

SPOILER for Buffy Finale

[AceCaseOR]

You mean Anya, right?

Re:SPOILER for Buffy Finale

[magarity]

Nah, obviously it's Tracy.

Re:SPOILER for Buffy Finale

[644bd346996]

Or Wash?

Re:SPOILER for Buffy Finale

[tehmorph]

Or Wash. Serenity's ending was... mediocre. 'Hey, let's randomly kill off an epic character!'

Re:SPOILER for Buffy Finale

[Anonymous Coward]

-1, Idiot.

It wasn't random. All bets were off, dramatically, when Whedon killed Wash off. If he killed the most beloved, harmless character in the cast, the story was capable of anywhere.

Pretty brilliant move, actually.

Whedon ripping off Joe 90?

[Anonymous Coward]

He could have at least done one of the good marionette shows like "Thunderbirds."

Re:Whedon ripping off Joe 90?

[16K Ram Pack]

and without the cool opening music/titles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSaPF8Y_l04 (just found this)

"people programmed with different personalities"

[Anonymous Coward]

A programmable Eliza Dushku? Sign me up! The things I'll code her to do....

Paycheck

[pianoman113]

The movie (or the short story, take your pick), though I'm sure Joss doesn't mind the kind he can take to the bank. The key difference being the main character in Paycheck was a mercenary who voluntarily had his mind wiped.

Many of Philip K. Dick's ideas are being adapted into film these days. Are we that cynical about the future?

Re:Paycheck

[Lurker2288]

It's really not like Paycheck at all. Apart from the 'mind wiping,' but seriously, you might as well say it's just like 'Men In Black.' Of course, to be fair, the movie 'Paycheck' didn't have all that much to do with the short story, either.

Re:Paycheck

[OldeTimeGeek]

No, just about the present.

It does seem like they're filming a lot of his stuff. I'd love to see someone take on Ubik.

Sounds like Dark City

[Khopesh]

Uh, Alex Proyas (The Crow, I, Robot) did this in his 1998 movie Dark City ; an alien race constantly wipes the minds of their captive humans, reshuffling them in order to better understand the human concept of a soul (so that the dying alien race can learn this trait and perhaps evade their fate). The movie is one of my favorites, but I don't expect Dollhouse to be anything but drivel.

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[Anonymous Coward]

Silly me, I thought it sounded like The Pretender.

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[Khopesh]

Jarod on the Pretender just did simulations; he knew he was a puppet, and he was aware of the programming. Dark City's premise was that the Strangers ran their mind-wiping experiments in secret; the human subjects were never intended to know what was going on, but then one day, the main character started figuring things out ... just like in Whedon's new show.

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[glwtta]

So a part of the premise is vaguely similar to that of a 10 year old movie? Yeah, might as well not bother. (I quite enjoyed Dark City; Rufus Sewell is a hugely underrated actor)

I don't expect Dollhouse to be anything but drivel.

Based on what?

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[UnknownSoldier]

Ah, thats who wrote that! Dark City was very good, sort of like "The Truman Show" meets "The Matrix." I think one of the reasons it didn't do well was probably not enough "wow" factor and/or action for the general public to get into like "The Matrix." Similarly for the "The Thirteenth Floor" or "Gattacca." Too much of a thinking man's movie(s).

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[Khopesh]

Remember Dark Angel? It was a show by a well-known writer (James Cameron), centering on a very attractive main character (Jessica Alba) with a corny storyline borrowed from a Jet Li kung-fu film (Black Mask). It was a weak show and was canceled early into its run. This seems rather similar.

I expect to dislike Dollhouse based on an observation that the big networks (especially Fox) always kill anything that sounds like it has its share of espionage and intrigue (the "conspiracy" theme hasn't flown since before 9/11, and hasn't been successful since the hey-day of The X-Files and The Pretender); it will either require too much intellect for Fox to keep, or it will have the banter of shows like Buffy (hint: I never liked Buffy) and Dawson's Creek, which I equate to drivel. I figure it will lean towards the latter.

Perhaps this way I can be pleasantly surprised when it surpasses my (low) expectations. I'd still rather he be working on a sequel movie to Serenity.

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[giminy]

Uh, Fritz Lang did this in his 1927 movie Metropolis; separate classes of humans yadda yadda. The movie is one of my favorites, but I don't expect Dark City to be anything but drivel.

Okay sorry for the sarcasm. But my point is that nothing out of Hollywood is original. If you prescribe to Joseph Campbell, no story anywhere is really original. Watch it, or don't, I suppose it doesn't matter ;-).

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it sounds more like Joe Haldeman's All My Sins Remembered from 1977.

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[Igarden2]

For some reason, I was also reminded of Dark City when I read this. Maybe its not so bad that Joss wants his turn at spinning this concept. Joss is known to be original. I doubt he can match the fantastic production values of Dark City. Proyas never shortchanged us. He made it a real masterpiece. But then that was a movie, not a TV series. Do you know the way to Shell Beach??

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[Anonymous Coward]

As usual, William Gibson did it back in 1984: Molly worked in a "puppet parlor" loaning out her body.

Re:Sounds like Dark City

[glwtta]

or it will have the banter of shows like Buffy (hint: I never liked Buffy) and Dawson's Creek, which I equate to drivel

Got it - by "drivel" you mean shows you are not interested in (I thought you were talking about quality of writing at first).

He's like an abused spouse

[Steeltalon]

Sooner or later there needs to be an intervention and his friends and family need to tell him that, no matter what it says, Fox doesn't really love him.

Re:He's like an abused spouse

[unsigned integer]

Fox: "Come on home baby. This time it will be different. We won't cancel you halfway this time. We'll change."

Whedon: "I'm in a co-dependant relationship with Fox ... I have no choice but to go back, for the sake of the children."

Re:He's like an abused spouse

[Frogbert]

Exactly, I fully believe that one could create a very successful company based solely on continuing production of the shows Fox cancels.

Re:ideal for episodic TeeVee...

[Mark J Tilford]

But they implied that Dushku will start remembering bits from previous jobs.

You Never Know

[wolff000]

The plot sounds great and could be a really good show. Unfortunately like a few others have stated his shows often teeter out. Many people blame him for this but I think this is unfair. It could be him or it could be the fat cats at the networks dictating what happens next cause that is what they want to see. We will never know which but I hope this turns out well. I'll be sure to download at least the first few episodes to see how it plays out.

Re:You Never Know

[littlekosh]

Unfortunately like a few others have stated his shows often teeter out. I don't really understand this. Buffy's best season was either the fifth or the sixth, and Angel's best was easily the fifth. If anything the shows seem to get stronger the longer they go on.

Re:You Never Know

[keith_nt4]

Buffy's fifth was the best? Interesting you say that. It's my least favorite. I watched the DVD special features. Even the executive producer (Marti Nox I think it was) couldn't fully explain the plot. What the hell man. Course, I'm guessing you're a lot younger than me. That's probably why. I probably like seasons 3 and 4 the most. Though six and seven had their moments (I loved the musical and the one where the vampire acts as psychologist for buffy as well as 4's last episode, Restless).

Re:You Never Know

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the problem with Joss' shows after the first couple of seasons is that he's no longer one of the main writers, and lets other people start writing the episodes. Almost all of the episodes HE writes are genius.

Re:You Never Know

[wolff000]

That explains a lot it is unfortunate he can not continue to be the main writer. Another downfall in my opinion can be the director which can change quite a bit during the course of a TV shows life.

hybrid shows

[fermion]

Although most writing is just rehashing of old ideas, only changing sets or characters, it seems that we are getting more straight hybrids, with little else change. For instance, the so-called bionic women seems more a hybrid of Alias and perhaps some young women show, maybe gilmore girls, though I realy don't know. No new writing, just put it in a blender.

The sad thing is that really out there ideas, those that are not rehashes, are not popular. Stuff like Salvage I. I guess people want what they want. This show, however, seems like a surrender to the status quo. After years of trying to be out there, the show is a realization that money is only made when we give people what they want. Firefly made no sense, and was sci fi, so it was dropped, thought it was still more realistic than friends. Oh well, like goes on.

Re:hybrid shows

[Donut Zeke]

What do you mean Firefly made no sense? They canceled it midseason, the reason that it was confusing was because the plot wasn't fully developed and there were supposed to be mysteries. Think before you talk, or at least post up an argument justifying yourself.

Re:hybrid shows

[Yinepuhotep]

The only reason Firefly "made no sense" was because Fox aired the episodes out of order and didn't even bother to air the pilot until AFTER they had canceled the show. Imagine how much sense your favorite novel would make if the publisher had chopped it apart and shuffled the chapters before binding it, then printed the prologue at the END of the book.

Re:hybrid shows

[Anonymous Coward]

Firefly made no sense to the average viewer, which is why it got cancelled. To the people who watched it, it made a lot of sense. Just like buffy. But one can't make a profit on a show that only makes sense to 1 out of every 1000 people.

the future is now?

[tabby]

I'm fairly certain something like this must already be happening. At least at my work. Its the only plausible explaination for people to constantly make the same bad decisions over & over again.

And before you ask...

[FoolsGold]

Yes, in the show... Eliza Dushku will run Linux. Can't afford to have her BSODing every episode can then?

Re:And before you ask...

[geekoid]

When she becomes petrified from a segfault, will we need hot grits.

Gunslinger Girl

[Anonymous Coward]

The anime you're thinking of is Gunslinger Girl

Re:Gunslinger Girl

[Boap]

Yes that is it

If Bones is still on . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

. . . then this should get at least one season on Fox.

Whedon was on TV last night!

[pappy97]

Joss Whedon directed last night's episode of "The Office."

So its "Dark Angel" before Max escaped Manticore

[7String]

nuff said.

Topcow Aphrodite IX ripoff

[phrostie]

this is a rip off of Topcow's Aphrodite IX

Did someone say weeaboo?

[samwh]

Because I think I just heard someone say weeaboo.

Hit and miss with me.

[pavon]

All his shit feels the same and looks the same I can't agree with this, as I have reacted differently to everything he has done. Roseanne, Buffy, and Firefly are each very different shows.

I was always fairly indifferent to Roseanne, it was funny sometimes, and annoying sometimes, but for the most part didn't do much for me. But what people did like about it was that it was very down to earth and completely non-PC. Then you have Buffy, which was practically the opposite. The dialog, while often irreverent, was delivered in a very liberal-arts pseudo-intellectual manner, which I absolutely hated. And then he turns around and makes Firefly. I absolutely loved that show - the premise, the characters, the mix of comedy and emotion, everything.

But most importantly, none of those shows were the standard run-of-the-mill sitcom - they all did something different, some of which I liked, some of which I didn't. My impression of Joss is that he is a good writer that takes risks, unlike most of the formulaic crap on TV. His type of writing will never appeal to everyone all the time, but the people who do like it *love* it. I'd much rather have more of that on television, and so I'm curious to see what he does with this new show.

Re:Hit and miss with me.

[kir]

I still can't understand how the same guy who created a show as wonderful as Firefly also created Buffy and Roseanne. How could that have come out of the same mind?

Re:Hit and miss with me.

[trytoguess]

Er... where did you get that Joss Whedon was involved in Roseanne? Wiki, and imdb disagrees with you.

WTF is with the cancellation speculation?

[Asmor]

Buffy was on for... I forget if it's 6 or 7 seasons. Either way, that's really good.

So how the hell do you extrapolate that one unmitigated success, followed by one unmitigated failure, yields a second unmitigated failure?

Re:WTF is with the cancellation speculation?

[d0rp]

Buffy was on for... I forget if it's 6 or 7 seasons. Either way, that's really good. Except "Buffy" didn't start on Fox.

After what happened to "Firefly" and "Drive" (yes, I realize that wasn't Joss Whedon, just using as an example), I'd say any new show on Fox stands a good shot of getting canceled early on.

I don't know why Joss Whedon would go back to Fox...

Re:WTF is with the cancellation speculation?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Buffy and Angel were made by Fox but aired on other networks.

Re:WTF is with the cancellation speculation?

[adona1]

Actually, Buffy was cancelled at the end of season 5 and was then picked up by WB, I believe. Likewise, Angel was canceled halfway through season 5, although they had the grace to give them until the end of the season so they could wrap it up.

Cancellation speculation is certainly premature, but Joss tends to write quality shows that don't easily fit into a basket a network exec understands, and so anything created by him has a disclaimer attached: will be good, but future is not assured.

Dushku and Fox

[eddy]

What about Dushku, is she wed to Fox too? 'Tru Calling' and 'Nurses' (what happened to that?) were both on Fox, and now this.

Fox is a retarded network for something which _will_ take time to grow mainstream, just the sort of shows that Whedon writes. I just can't understand why Whedon (and Minear?! Tim, wth?!) would go for this. Oh sure, the money. But what about all the pain and suffering that comes with it?

At last they are re-making Joe 90

[Anonymous Coward]

a welcome return for the "Brain Impulse Galvanoscope Record And Transfer" ... a device that allows the secret agent Joe 90 to be programmed with the skills needed for each mission, then have his brain wiped afterwards. Eliza Dushku certainly looks better than the wooden puppet used in the original series, but probably wont improve the standard of acting ..

Am I the only old british guy to think "joe 90"?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_90/

So in short

[geekoid]

Man gets better at his craft with practice.

Sounds familiar

[Anonymous Coward]

"...a top-secret world of people programmed with different personalities, abilities and memories depending on their mission..."

Paging Joe 90... Paging Joe 90...

This sounds like All My Sins Remembered

[Elfich47]

The series sounds like All My sins remembered by Joe Haldeman. An average citizen is conditioned through hypnotherapy to assume given roles for a time period until the mission is over. After that he returns to base, debriefs and is assigned another mission. Eventually the brain cannot take the strain of repeated wipes and reprogramming and by the end when he is not on mission he is a schizophrenic stew of previous programmed personalities (thus - All my sins remembered).

Re:So its "Dark Angel" before Max escaped Manticor

[no_pets]

Sounds good to me. Jessica Alba and Eliza Dushku are equally hot and I was seriously bummed when Dark Angel was canceled. Of course I prefer a post-pulse dystopia to a pre-pulse government project but Joss can work some magic.

FOX is what is WTF is up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's Fox, which means a survival rate for new shows at around 5-10% beyond S1, with many dying almost before the first order has even completed shooting much less aired. Fox doesn't give shows a chance. If it's not a the new '24' --- or whatever else huge hit it's competing against in the same slot/genre --- after two episodes, it's a goner.

No extrapolation needed

[fm6]

You're making a joke (and not a bad one), but you pretty much describe what happened to Firefly. The decision to buy the show came from a top, but there was a huge faction at Fox that hated the idea of putting on an "anti-Star Trek" and did everything they could to sabotage it. These are your standard network suits who hate Science Fiction (especially "space opera") because it costs a lot to produce and only targets a narrow audience. They much prefer reality shows and sitcoms, which are cheap and popular.

They did a lot of stuff that at the time I attributed to simple corporate ineptitude, like promoting the show with really badly designed web site, and putting out this really horrible souvenir poster (featuring a common housefly with a lightbulb up its ass!). Then they forced Whedon to water down the scripts, showed them out of order, and finally scheduled the premier on a night where it was sure to be delayed in many markets by late-running baseball games. I usually hate conspiracy theories (speaking as a former "conspirator") but here it's hard to avoid having one.

On top of all that, Joss Whedon is notoriously bad at corporate politics. So yeah, it's quite possible that his new show has already been cancelled.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[fyngyrz]

In my opinion, it is a problem of the target audience. Shows that appeal broadly to the lower half of the Gaussian (reality TV, Flava uv Luv, Faux News, etc.) aren't going to hook the upper half. Likewise, the cheap gimmicks used in easy advertising aren't going to motivate the upper half to buy much of anything - most of us just snicker at the commercials, if we watch them at all.

This leads to a problem where the advertising can pay for the shows if the shows bring in people who can be suckered by the ads; and that in turn earns us garbage television and causes the occasional great show that pokes its head up above the water to have corporate reach over and push it right back under. They knew that show was popular with a significantly upscale audience, but they also knew that those people weren't supporting their advertisers.

The only shows that make it that will have any appeal at all to the upper half will also have significant elements of dumbshittery to them so as to drag Joe Sixpack off the tailgate of his pickup long enough to watch. Hence the mixed bag that the Treks represent, the awesome badness of Dr Who and the Torchwood spinoff mixed with just-happen-to-be interesting ideas, and the dreary soap-opera fuckarosis of the current edition of Battlestar.

Firefly, which I would rank as the best television series ever made by a huge margin, even went out of its way to include low-end social elements such as the cowboy ethos, highly imperfect and easily understandable characters (Jane, for instance) and a down-to-the-metal bucket of bolts kind of flying jalopy your average hick could understand and maintain (Kylie.) The beauty of those inclusions was that they actually fit in the universe painted for us; the tragedy was that the show just wasn't dumb enough. In fact, it wasn't dumb at all. And that, my slashy friends, means cancellation.

So. What's Britney up to today? More collagen for her lips? Still being held at arm's length from her kids? Any more video of her trying to dance without any practice or coaching? Fascinating stuff. Just... fascinating. Cough. I think I'll fool with Guitar Hero III instead of watching the tube tonight. Again.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[_Sprocket_]

Then they forced Whedon to water down the scripts, showed them out of order, and finally scheduled the premier on a night where it was sure to be delayed in many markets by late-running baseball games.

I watched the series in the as-aired order (the fact that I never saw them when they were on the air is a different but very important point). I liked the "out of sequence" ordering. I had no problem jumping in to the action. Watching the fur fly... noticing that there were personal interactions between these characters... and wondering what the story was. By the time the two-part "original first episode" shows up in this sequence, I found it all a treat to finally get to see who and what these people were. I'm not so sure I would have been as interested if it started with character introductions first.

Clearly there are a number of people who disagree - episode order always gets mentioned when bemoaning the failure of Firefly. Maybe its a matter of sensibilities and preference. I'm not so sure it was sabotage. At least on this point.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[Fred Ferrigno]

These are your standard network suits who hate Science Fiction (especially "space opera") because it costs a lot to produce and only targets a narrow audience. They much prefer reality shows and sitcoms, which are cheap and popular. As much as I liked Firefly and science fiction in general (especially space opera), I can't really argue with the suits' logic here. Being expensive and having a small audience is a pretty good reason to "hate" a show, whatever genre. Truth be told, making a sci-fi show good enough to appease hardcore fans is typically mutually exclusive with making it popular among the general audience. And if the suits thought the show couldn't grow beyond the hardcore fans, it would never make it to air at all.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[fm6]

Fine, you like watching a story out of order. Most people don't. And that must have hurt the shows ratings. Especially since they didn't show the pilot until the series was almost over — and this was a double-length episode that did a lot to set up the situation.

This was supposed be an SF-geek's TV show, where the logic of events was everything. By screwing up the story arc, they deprived everybody of a chance to enjoy that. Which probably wouldn't have saved the show, but surely would have helped the ratings just a bit.

My conspiracy theory aside, it's true that TV networks took a long time to figure out that serial story arcs have a way of building up a show's following, so fans stick with it even when the stories get a little weak, because they have to know how things come out. That's why there are so many pure serials like Lost and 24 on the air now. In that respect, Whedon was a little ahead of his time.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[fm6]

To boil your argument down to its essentials: there's a huge audience for crap. You're right, of course, but it's not the only audience. All the big entertainment companies chase that audience because big companies think in terms of economies of scale.

There was a time when movies and TV was more diverse, because the companies that produced and distributed it were more diverse, and some of them could specialize in more limited audiences.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[fm6]

Well yeah, shows that only appeal to a few hard core fans are sure money losers. But the suits tend to put any show or movie that doesn't meet the standard formulas in that category. That's why almost every TV show and movie has some suit attached to it whose job is to say, "OK, I like what you're doing, but we could really appeal to a broader audience by making the characters nicer. And can't they have a nicer place to live? And not so many unpleasant things happening to them? And couldn't we have more excitement? Couldn't the dad be a cop?" And on and on, until everybody's doing the same meaningless, predictable crap.

Was Firefly just a "hard core fans" show? Maybe. But the suits never gave it a chance to prove it wasn't. Because it was obvious to them that they could never reduce it to the kind of pablum they feel safe producing.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[Scrameustache]

I think I'll fool with Guitar Hero III instead of watching the tube tonight. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but what do you plug your console into, if not the tube? :)

Re:No extrapolation needed

[Anonymous Coward]

You should watch Deadwood, it's way better than Firefly.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[fyngyrz]

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but what do you plug your console into, if not the tube? :)

Damn rain. Going to pull the "getting technical" card on me, eh? Well, I raise you a 205" 1080p projection system for gaming, DVD, Blueray and HD-DVD. No tube involved (well... there's the projection lamp, I suppose. Umph.) We only watch broadcast (satellite) TV in the bathtub, there's a good sized Toshiba HD tube screen in there, along with a Dish DVR which saves our TV fare, such as it is, for those moments when we can slide under the water at a moment's warning. So as it turns out, the consoles aren't plugged into "the tube."

:-)

Re:No extrapolation needed

[fyngyrz]

I'll look into it, thanks. Hadn't heard of it previously.

Re:No extrapolation needed

[Scrameustache]

We only watch broadcast (satellite) TV in the bathtub, there's a good sized Toshiba HD tube screen in there Oh my, that doesn't sound safe at all! :-p

I remember this show!

[WillAffleckUW]

I think it was called MySims and I watched it on my TV when I connected my Wii to it!

Let me guess

[edwardpickman]

Joss read "All My Sins Remembered". If you havent read it its a Joe Haldemen book about an operative that is programmed with personalities for extreme missions who has his memory wiped after each one. The memories slowly coming back leaving him devatated. He may have forgotten he read the book but theres little doubt he read it.

Re:Let me guess

[Toonol]

It's funny that he's being accused of blatantly copying the show's premise, yet nobody seems to agree who he's ripping off:

Gunslinger Girls
Dark City
All My Sins Remembered
Joe 90
AphroditeX
Neuromancer

Did all of those shows rip off each other?

Re:Let me guess

[Dun Malg]

It's funny that he's being accused of blatantly copying the show's premise, yet nobody seems to agree who he's ripping off: Yeah, people don't seem to realize that all good art "borrows" heavily from other art. I can't tell you how many dopes I've met who say they want to be [TV/Movie/Book] writers, but don't [Watch TV/watch movies/read books]. This is where so much of the bad crap comes from. All those hack writers, most of them nephews/sons/friends of entertainment executives (cough)JJ Abrams(/cough), half-wits and dolts the lot of them, and they largely don't have the brains to realize what makes a good product.

Re:Let me guess

[lennier1]

Dont forget "Universal Soldier".

Re:Let me guess

[Saracenus]

But us not forget the movie Total Recall, they are ripping that off too...

Saracenus runs for cover...

Re:Let me guess

[Anonymous Coward]

I took a writing class once, and the teacher broke it down like this: "there are only twelve stories to tell." For this teacher at least, the talent was all in the telling. So, sure, Joss is ripping everybody off. (For my money, it sounds a lot like Battlestar Galactica from a Cylon's perspective, or a variation on where he may have been able to go with River Tamm from Firefly, or maybe what he sort of wants to do with Buffy: Season 8 (the comic) with an army of slayers and lots of magic to manipulate them into being weapons/instruments of the slayer agenda, or any number of Borges or Kafka or other classical existential or sci fi stories...I could go on for hours!). The key is, with this ingeniously ambiguous premise, he gets to do any or ALL of these stories, resonating with the greatest number of people possible. I mean, he gets to:

1) Rip off as many people as possible, to tell the greatest variety of crazy stories all within one premise, tying them together with an overarching mystery/saga that keeps us all interested. Dude - he gets to do stories within stories - the BEST kind!

2) Working with Eliza Dushku gives him a hot chick that can kick a**. The fan bases for Buffy and Alias have NOWHERE to go for seriously strong female leads.

3) "Ripping off" other ideas/philosophies will give him awesome opportunities to SAY things that get us to think. And he'll say them in funny, entertaining ways that will make us CARE about the characters. And he will generate a show that will push the envelope and boundaries that HE will set in the show, so that people who like to pigeon-hole things won't like the change brought about later in the shows' seasons. The mind-blowing way that he pushes the boundaries of his own work is what makes his fans (like me) so passionate. Nobody, but nobody, does this and gets away with it. Even if it's FOX, all I can say is, thank you, Joss, for returning to tv.

It was a joke...

[benhocking]

You see, the first data point was at 6 or 7 seasons (I also don't know). The second point was at 1 season. That means this one will last for -5 seasons or so. If you thought that I really believed that...

Look, I'm a scientist. I know you can't actually extrapolate based off two data points. It was just a joke.

Re:It was a joke...

[Nazlfrag]

Yeah, you're fitting the curve wrong. it's more logarithmic, so expect it to last at least an episode or two before cancellation.

Re:It was a joke...

[Asmor]

Curve? What curve? I don't remember Euclid's first postulate saying a curve could be drawn between any two points. :p

Re:It was a joke...

[Asmor]

It's not just you, you just happen to be the one I replied to.

Re:It was a joke...

[rhombic]

Every line is a curve. Even the straight ones. In Cartesian space, they're of the form Y = ax + b

Joss Wheden likes Ghost in the Shell...

[Marful]

This smacks of the Puppeteer plot line in the Masamune Shirow Manga: Ghost in the Shell.

Really?

[toddvj]

Even with the looming writers' strike?

Joe90

[nevillethedevil]

This kinda reminds me of the old puppet show Joe90

Re:Joe90

[tyroneking]

Maximum respect for this comment! I was looking for the first mention of Joe 90 too!

WTF? Buffy ran over six years

[walterbyrd]

Accouring to wikipedia

I think that's about twice as long as the original Star Trek.

Dammit, you all are missing the point.

[Anonymous Coward]

Eliza Dushku, really hot chick who can act is going to be on TV again. :)

Hopefully...

[Cervantes]

Hopefully, this is part of some backroom deal so Joss can secure the rights to Firefly (which expire at the end of this year).

Because, otherwise... Joss, buddy, what the hell? You're like a hooker who keeps going back to her abusive pimp for another shot. What's next, you'll add a secondary character for Nathan Fillion, just to ensure that Fox will cancel it?

Re:Hopefully...

[Yehooti]

Don't hook me on something as great as Firefly was, then try to entice me back. I feel hosed and I'm not buying any new BS.

Just in time for the writer's strike.

[searchr]

As Joss was quoted while talking about this:

"There's a hiccup in that process because of the [potential] writers strike. I will be good to go the moment we are in agreement with the studios. But I won't pick up a pencil while we're not."

"Next year, you're going to see a lot of new novels."

So. It's vapor now.

Ugh

[sexconker]

Get this man and his bad shows off my TV.
Fox needs to cancel half of their shows and show more Married with Children, M*A*S*H, Gilligan's Island, and X-Files reruns.

Re:Ugh

[e4g4]

Married with Children...Giligan's Island... You're joking, right?

Wait WAIT

[/dev/trash]

Which show/book/anime/opera is ripping off now?

Did somebody say "Dark City?"

[FiloEleven]

no text, really.

I'd have thought he'd learnt his Lesson with Fox.

[Nim82]

Whilst i'm glad Joss is back, I'd have thought he'd learnt his lesson with Fox.

Even if this new series is good, it will probably get fucked over by the suits faster than you can say 'Firefly'. From the fallout over that show I'd got the distinct impression he was 'done' altogether with the current model.... a seven episode order sounds like they've got cold feet already.... perhaps he should've looked at straight to DVD/Download or something instead?

Been there before

[Anonymous Coward]

similar premise to Joe90 maybe?

Mighty Mouse

[slashdot2]

Mighty Mouse, Mighty Mouse Does whatever a Mighty Mouse Does Can he swing, from a web, no he can't, he's a Mouse Look out, he is a Mighty Mouse!

Sounds interesting

[busydoingnothing]

I'll be sure to catch all three episodes.

Re:Sounds interesting

[Grey_14]

awww, I laughed but then I hurt inside ;_;

Fox? Fox is evil. Fox is a Neocon shill honeypot.

[Fantastic Lad]

Firefly died because, in my jaded view, it was saying, "Government Bad. Rebels Good."

And now he's launching a story which deals with the Greenbaum Material (I wonder if he researched this, or if he's flying on, "don't know why exactly, but this topic fascinates me" instinct.

Basically, unless he comes out with an endless pro-torture message like Alias or 24 and similar, which based on Joss' history, I think is highly unlikely, this show is going to get snuffed.

My guess is that the only reason he's working with Fox is that "it just sort of all pointed that way" --they wooed him so that Dollhouse could be developed, backwatered and then canceled so that it can't achieve social relevance on some other network which isn't all about the suppression of truth.

Joss is brilliant, but he could use more insight. The only two reasons to work with Fox are if you are evil, or if you are ignorant. Fox News shows the network bias.

-FL

Re:ideal for episodic TeeVee...

[Dachannien]

Hey, I think I remember this show from back when it was called Star Trek: Voyager.

Dark Angel?

[Jugalator]

This somehow sounds a lot like Dark Angel to me. High tech stuff involved, engineered humans from a nefarious "company", and Eliza Dushku instead of Jessica Alba. :)

Piers Anthony's "Omnivore" series?

[Anomalyst]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the similarity to the "Agents" presented in that trilogy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Man_and_Manta.

It's time to play the music...

[Scrameustache]

Angel was just as painful, but tried to take itself way too seriously. Too seriously? Smile time!

SPOILER for Serenity now

[roystgnr]

This is just speaking for myself, but that ending was one of the very few times I've truly felt fear and suspense in an action movie. The standard trope goes something like: "Every one of Our Heroes is in mortal peril, and maybe the show plays it up by killing a Red Shirt, but you know that nobody you care about is going to bite it because they've got to be here for the next episode." Serenity was: "One fantastic character was actually killed, now another one's killed... dear God, this 'everybody might die' scene might actually end with everybody dying!"

If there had been a serious chance at bringing Firefly back to TV then I wouldn't think losing Book and Wash was worth the loss of Book and Wash, but for the movie's sake it was the right artistic choice to make.

fuck Nielsen

[Scrameustache]

Just what I was thinking. I like most of Whedon's projects, but the guy sure knows how to whine. I mean, I wish Firefly hadn't been canceled too, but c'mon, it cost a million bucks an episode to make and it was unpopular It wasn't unpopular, it wasn't aired when it was supposed to.
"Firefly, fridays at 8", nope, it's baseball. Worse, it's baseball with an ad at 8:15 for firefly at 8. I kept fox on mute all night while I surfed the web... you know when firefly came on? Me neither, but it was after midnight, because I checked at midnight, and at around 12:10 I realized it was on.
The next week, it wasn't on yet at 12:10, but it came on later (mute, web).
They claim they canceled it because it got bad ratings, but they killed it. On purpose (showed the episodes out of order, including "to be continued" episodes, aired the first episode last, skipped weeks, changed the airtime without any notice, etc.).
So fuck you and your willingness to accept the official story, hook, line and sinker.

rip off #42

[CeramicNuts]

200 comments and every other post claims the premise is a rip off of an existing story/series.

even if true, Joss will make it work!

Reminded me more of...

[CarpetShark]

"This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds. No, 4. No, 3. No, 2... Aww, screwit."

Libertarians in space...

[patio11]

... would leave everyone better off.

Rule 34: Portal Edition

[Anonymous Coward]

> That internet hate machine article has certainly changed the face of slashdot.

As of two weeks ago, the Intarweb had two out of three taken care of, and it's amazingly still safe for work.

Rule 34 stands. Rule 35 is waiting. Will you be the One?

Why he may have gone back

[cybergremlin]

If I remember correctly (say a 50/50 chance at best) Joss had signed a development deal with Fox and owed them 2 more series after Firefly. If so then if he wanted to do TV he might have to go back to FOX (right of first refusal perhaps).

Yes he does have good reson to be wary. They put his baby in the Fri-8pm time slot of death, showed it out of order, pre empted or moved it so often you never know when it was on, then canned it.

Fox has earned a reputation for quickly canceling genre shows. A lot of this seems to stem from a tendancy to greenlight plenty of unusual fare and then cancel it if it does not expode quikly, both the good (Firefly, Brimstone) and the "what were they thinking?" (Drive, lots of things no one remembers). Throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

Of course with the writers stike everything is on hold, and after the colapse of "Heros" clones it may never see daylight at all.

so let me get this right...

[advocate_one]

they ALL wear Joe 90 glasses??? I've seen this idea before... they used to program Joe 90 with the necessary skills before each mission... and he had to put the glasses on to access them...

didnt he learn the 1st time

[crashelite]

fox messed up firefly what would prevent them from messing this up? oh well sifi will pick it up once fox messes it up just like they did with firefly

Chris Carter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Big whoop. Where is Chris Carter?

Re:Joe 90

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a wonder he never got sick in the spinning chair device. The music was good too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_90

Sounds creepy - Not in a good way

[smchris]

But I have to imagine it's the sort of experience an actor would kill to have in the portfolio.

Huh?

[DDLKermit007]

I thought Wheadon swore he would never work with Fox again after their mishandling of Firefly? What the hell is this?

Re:So its "Dark Angel" before Max escaped Manticor

[zippthorne]

Meh. Dark Angel was good for about 3/4ths of one season. Then it turned into a buffy/hercules/xena esque MonsterOfTheWeek bubblegum serial. I wasn't sad that it was canceled, but I was sad that it had to be.

Sounds like...

[BubbaJonBoy]

The Pretender meets Paycheck. Well at least they're mixing things up in an attempt to come up with new stuff - and at least Josh will do a quality hack.