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ID Tech May Mean an End to Anonymous Drinking
Anonymous Howard writes "If you visit a lot of bars and restaurants, you've likely crossed paths with driver's license scanners — machines that supposedly verify that your license is valid. In actuality, many of these scanners are designed to record your license information in addition to verifying them, and those that authenticate against a remote database are creating a record of when and where you buy alcohol. Not only that, but they're not even particularly effective — the bar code on your license uses an open, documented standard and can be rewritten to change your age or picture. Collecting our driver's license information is one thing, but collecting data about our personal drinking habits is not only a violation of, according to the ACLU representative quoted in the article, privacy and civil liberties, but this 'drinking record' could also create problems for people in civil and criminal lawsuits as proof of alcohol purchases in DUI cases or evidence of alcoholism in divorce lawsuits."
Due to mounting pressure, purchases of all Frosty Piss, including steaming mug varieties, are now subject to mandatory ID recording. Our apologies for the inconvenience and we hope you enjoy your beverage.
For those of you in states where the license only has a magnetic stripe on it, and not a bar code, the magnets from inside hard drives do a great job at wiping out the data on the magnetic stripe.
Let me be the firth to shay that I welcome our (Hic!).... waitaminute...what was I shaying?
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With this information employers could decide not to hire you if they felt you drank too much, in their opinion, or at all. Companies owned by fundamentalist christians, mormans or even muslims may decide to do this.
Additionally, insurance companies could drop you if they found out, for exaple, you were out drinking 3 nights a week.
If this info gets out it could have a huge impact on people.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I'm of legal drinking age already and I haven't yet seen one of these machines in my area. But if I ever do, I'd like to have a false bar graph taped on the back of my license. Who will be the first to make a web site to generate these at will? And how long until that web site is labeled a terrorist act?
Not a typewriter
I'm all for personal privacy but I really can't see the loss of this sort of privacy outweighing the benifits of getting drunk drivers kept in jail or having a factual record for divorce hearings. When peoples safety and lives are at risk there needs to be some intelligent oversight of these issues but you can't have a blanket privacy enforcement. It just doesn't work. I think that a middle ground would apply, especially here. The database should require warrants and be overseen by a provacy advocate group as well as some seriously paranoid geeks for security. But the data should be there if required to prove innocence or guilt.
) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
That's why I just keep a still running and do all of my drinking alone in the dark. I even use a tin cup to match my hat.
Bite my shiny, metal ass!
This is easy to work around -- just mark the bar code with a sharpie. The machine won't be able to read it, and they'll be forced to check your ID the old fashioned way.
What's the problem? I don't drink, so I have nothing to hide.
Grrrrrr.... Funny: me as a db admin -- creating databases for a living -- but I sure am against other peoples' databases. Ain't it a hoot?
"They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
But websites using tracking cookies have little way of correlating your particular cookie with who you actually are unless you provide them with that info by choice. At the very most they can track an IP address, which in the era of dynamic IPs and TOR is largely useless unless you have access to ISP records. Here they have a nice little database including name, soc, and home address. Why would they even need to collect anything like that in the first place? Smacks of big brother to me.
My fraternity brothers are all married and I STILL NEED DRINKING BUDDIES!!!
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And some businesses use this information to add to their marketing mailing lists. I know people who start getting snail mail spam from bars after their drivers license is scanned.
Developers: We can use your help.
Should somebody who goes to a bar with friends have the right to anonymity? They are not recording who is drinking, they are recording who enters the place with the scanner.
Should the person hanging out as the DD have their information recorded just because you think it will stop people who drink and then acting responsibly from being anonymous (and probably able to prevent that behavior in the future)?
-- toolie
A good majority of websites also do that, and who knows what they are doing with the data?
Really? Web sites track my behavior and correlate it with my name, address, date of birth, and (last I checked in some states) my social security number?
Doesn't sound too kosher to me.
Wouldn't the driver's BAC be the "smoking gun" in most DUI cases?
The evidence of an alcohol purchase isn't going to be remotely sufficient to convict without a BAC test, and the presence of a BAC test alone should be more than sufficient to produce a conviction. I honestly don't see where the purhcahse record could hypothetically fit into the equation.
If there's an argument for or against ID scanning, this isn't it. Even from the cops' perspective, this isn't even going to help them 'nab the bad guys' any more than they're already equipped to do.
Papers, please?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Don't go to those 'high tech' places. Go to the real gin joint down the street. Besides once you are a regular at a place they don't card you. I went to a place that rhymes with Drasy Conky on rte 110 in amityville, NY that had one of those machines. Next thing I know I'm getting all these advertisments for night clubs and bars sent to my home. Then my wife starts asking me all these questions about where I'm going. not cool.
Driver's license checks aren't mandatory in the state I live in (Kansas) ... it's been 10 years or so since I've been asked to show my driver's license, with the only exception being to board a commercial airline flight.
So apparently these machines aren't being effectively used yet for any kind of tracking purpose, as they'd only be capturing data for people under the "apparent age" of about 25.
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
Real alcoholics shouldn't worry about this. If you become a regular at a bar, the bouncers will not ID you every time, because they know you are over 21.
Alternatively, you could powder your hair, but that makes it harder to pick up chicks.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
1) Why is it assumed that entering a bar automatically implies that you were drinking?
2) I find it really dubious that employers would ever get access to this sort of information and I think that it is unlikely that they would be allowed to use it without being sued.
While the potential exists for all sorts of "big brother" type applications, I find most of these scenarios to be somewhat far-fetched.
Don't make me use my other sig!!
When they started scanning your drivers licence when you drank. A little bit of vigilance could've seen this coming a mile away. Any time an institution has a new way to access personal data they will abuse it.
This is probably going to be coming over to the UK soon as well. They have become more tight on ID for clubs and bars to the point where only a specifically manufactured ID card, a drivers licence or a passport will do. Standardising ID is a precursor to this step.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
What's the point anymore? What with insane DUI penalties and rabid 'enforcement' bordering on entrapment, not to mention the publicity campaigns (posters all over town here saying, in big letters, "TWO DRINKS could MAKE YOU A FELON"), I've no desire to go to a bar. If I want to drink, I'll buy my liquor at a grocery store with a couple of $20s from my weekly 'petty cash' and I'll invite a couple friends over, or just drink alone. Sure, there's no playing pool or being hit on by drunk chicks, but there's also no loud, smelly football players drinking piss beer--that, and the prices are a lot better when I mix my own drinks.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
...but it won't stop me from taking 20$ from the kids standing behind the liquor store to buy them a case of PBR.
God bless their little, slightly drunk, souls.
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Officer:"License and registration, please."
BEEP
"I see you had three martinis, two shots and bought a bloody mary for the dishwater blonde who dumped you to go to the park with the accountant."
You: "It tells you all that on my license?"
Officer: "No, I gave them a ticket for having sex in public while being ugly a few minutes ago. Now, step out of the car and put your hands behind your back."
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As far as I know drunks and underage drinkers are not a protected class. Several companies will not hire you if you are a smoker, and it's legal for them to do so.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Likely? I do my fair share of drinking, and have never encountered an ID scanner outside of a convenience store, and I believe that they only read the magstrip and not the bar code. Unless these things are legally mandated, I can't imagine why a bar or restaurant would use one of these devices.
Just because I go into a bar, doesn't mean I am drinking. What if I am the DD? This just has bad idea written all over it. The scanner should be using this for verification only, and nothing else.
That is the end goal, where you cant do *anything* without it being tracked in some government database.
Even if what you are doing today is legal, it may not be tomorrow, and they will want records of it to hold against you. At the very least it shows prior intent.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Err, no, in Ohio actually. Around here there are a few bars that have taken to scanning the magnetic strip in our drivers license. Lucky for me, I have a few of those super strong neodymium magnets and have completely negated said magnetic strip.
They usually give up after about 15 swipes.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
The bar code that looks like a Magic Eye picture is called a 2D barcode. There's mucho software out there that can decode and produce them.
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On the radio the discussion was about east coast bars swiping information, lying to the patrons and telling them it was for security reasons, to prevent re-entry of banned or troublesome former-patrons.
(Me here forward:)
The thing was, they were promptly selling this information to other parties who reprocessed it as thank you offers, happy birthday offers, coupons, ads etc with extreme precision because these companies had ALL the necessary information to reduce the cost of marketing these people. It also gave these marketers a way of upping the price/cost of information these marketers wanted.
Later, when I moved to Oregon for a year, I saw the cashier at a convenience store actually SWIPING the card of someone buying alcohol and I think cigarettes (it's been a while, so it could be the reverse or the checking of purchase of both...).
That turned me off. I don't recall buying alcohol myself at that mart. What I think is stupid is swiping the ID of someone who obviously is well above 25 or 30, and doesn't appear to be wearing spy or makeup-artist appliances.
I guess then that people with passports (I don't know if stores will try to scan these and if they can't then decline/refuse the sale) can present them instead of their driver's license.
Somebody needs to come up with a two-or-three-part license/age-verification/right-to-vote device/card so that for clubbing and purchases not involving checks or credit, only NAME AND AGE/DOB appear.
Then, for big-ticket items, the second part (matching) has to be presented to provide ADDRESS (Current and maybe 5 previous or 5-10 years of previous addresses based on reconciled IRS & quarterly payroll records for working/retired adults).
The THIRD part would be for retirement/pre-retirement benefits/public assistance receipt and cash-out of stocks/purchase of property and so on, that don't need to be passed on to anyone except government/law enforcement.
Maybe I've blurred some areas, but I'm ALL FOR saying "SCREW YOU" to clubs, bars, and any place scraping information they have NO business obtaining, possessing or reselling. If they want to ban patrons, then use imagery/facial recognition equipment at the point of ejection or to replay tapes of a confused situation/melee.
Anyone reading headlines about bar bouncers participating in assaulting or stalking of patrons can easily see how this 2-3-part identification deprives nosy bar or shop employees from gleaning residency information on cash-only patrons. It could possibly even work for police identification situations when the police stop is a graduated information determination: First: verify the detainee is NOT who your on the lookout for. If name is STILL too close a match, ask the detainee to produce part two.
Same could work for other scenarios. Use your imagination.
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I was wondering where they do this...I've never heard of such a thing.
Granted, I'm old enough looking now not to get carded, but, I've ever had my license 'scanned' for anything before. I rarely take it out of the wallet...just show it through the clear plastic holder for the picture.
This is kinda scary....I guess some places have really strict liquor laws eh? I'm used to NOLA....when I travel, I keep forgetting that other places don't know what a "to go" cup for your drink is....
But seriously...where do they do this...and is it really that prevalent? I've never heard of it anywhere I've traveled. Is this mostly in the NE of the US?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Pseudoephedrine (a.k.a. "sudafed") has recently been a target of several state and federal laws, due to the fact that bulk quantities of pseudoephedrine can be used in the manufacture of methamphetamines. As such, the amount and frequency of pseudoephedrine purchases are now limited in many location by law.
Virginia requires that one show an ID and address, so that records can be kept on sales (presumably to track compliance with the amount and frequency limits.) In a typical store (e.g. grocery store pharmacy counter), this is done in a log book, which requires the sales drone to look at your license and write down the relevant info.
However, at least drug store chain now has a scanner that reads the barcode on the back of the driver's license.
On one hand, the information must be collected by law; having a cashier write down the info is a hassle and slows down the purchase. The scanner really helps accelerate the process (and probably helps with compliance, too.)
On the other hand...I certainly hate the idea that it's becoming that easy to collect personal information. At least with a driver's license scan, I know when data is being collected. RFID on the license...the horror!
ed
The bigger issue is that it's not hard to tie all of this data together to get a picture of a persons live, less their privacy. Lets just say the RIAA pumps an extra million bucks into some senators reelection fund and manages to get a bill passed that makes it a crime to purchase more than 500 pieces of recordable media a year (without some sort of license).
It would be very easy for the government to subpoena the records of all the major chain stores and very quickly have a list of people who broke this law. They could even write it into the law that it's retroactive to some date. Or how about people who also have netflix accounts and own a DVD writer and have purchased DVD-R media in the last year... Even if it's not a technical "crime" they could probably sue you in civil court with a "Pay us 5k and we'll go away" shake down game.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
So, my regular $192 Tuesday night tab has five cokes, thirty-seven beers, four martinis, a dozen shots of tequila and a small pizza...just so happens the networking meeting falls on that night and I happen to like coke with my pizza.
That does it, I'm just making my own moonshine in the basement and sneaking a flask into the bar.
"Just a Coke, please, I'm the designated driver!"
When are we going to decide that government is on a need-to-know basis, and when it comes to shit like this, they don't need to know?
It's a shame that most people are so docile and sheeplike that they will shrug their shoulders and say "well I got nothing to hide." Of course, that's not a complete thought. The complete thought is "well I got nothing to hide, so something as prone to abuse as unnecessary surveillance of a legal activity is OK by me!"
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Groups like MADD are the modern day puritans. They're not content with just protecting basic public order, but rectifying perceived personality flaws by using the state to remake society. MADD and those like them have never met a restriction on drinkers' rights they didn't find too onerous, short of the way that Sharia tends to punish drinkers.
I hate being reminded of the damage that alcoholics do as part of some stupid scheme to further erode basic rights. I grew up with an alcoholic father. Don't fucking remind me. There are only times I've nearly punched a girl in the face was when I had a proto-MADD member who didn't grow up in such a household piously get in my face saying that I didn't know what I was talking about WRT alcoholism and family life.
There are plenty of reasons you might, or might not, see this as a privacy violation. But the presence of prior privacy violations doesn't mean that new ones are ok.
Note that many people do indeed consider cookies a privacy violation even though they typically don't have as much potential as these ID scans to cause harm. And those people, if they're informed enough to know, have an option -- turn off cookies. That's minimally what this type of article is about: informing people so they can make a choice. (I certainly wasn't aware that this was going on...)
Can I avoid these scanners if I so choose? Well, I can choose not to drink in places that use them, but might that eventually mean choosing not to drink? Besides, most companies that collect my personal info at least have to tell me what they're collecting, how they use it, how they share it, etc. Typically I can even opt out of most sharing of my info. Why not so with bars?
As to why you might care: Well, suppose you like to drink now and then. Suppose you want to get a job with a small company, run by a person who has religious objections to drinking. Suppose he now adds to his background check routine "see if the candidate drinks". Is that ok with you?
Yes yes, very few of you are lawyers, but I'm wondering what the legality of removing/obscuring the barcode so that it no longer scans.
The info is still there on the front of the license so a human can still read it (I swear I wasn't speeding, officer!). But you wouldn't end up as easily in the junk-mail databases.
Chip H.
After a liquor store scanned my license without even asking my permission, I got ahold of a magstripe writer and deleted the data on my license's magstripe and wrote over it with my credit card. Now when I go out I can use the same card to get past the bouncer and pay the tab. Sometimes they look at me funny when I present my license for payment, but when they run the card the transaction is always approved.
Just re-write the data on the card to say something more interesting. Everything is stored plaintext. Just leave the birthdate intact and you'll be good.
;-).
And when i say rewrite the date...of course I mean "create another novelty ID to be used for testing purposes only"
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Anybody else read that as iD tech, as in the new naming scheme for iD software's game engines? It might put Jack Thompson, et al in a bit of a conundrum, on one hand computer games are training the kiddies to be murderers, but on the other hand they are reducing the drinking problem ;-).
It would be very easy for the government to subpoena the records of all the major chain stores and very quickly have a list of people who broke this law. They could even write it into the law that it's retroactive to some date. Or how about people who also have netflix accounts and own a DVD writer and have purchased DVD-R media in the last year... Even if it's not a technical "crime" they could probably sue you in civil court with a "Pay us 5k and we'll go away" shake down game. There is one defense against that, though. Cash. Personally I only purchase things with cash except for online stuff. Even online I try to avoid using anything other than a visa giftcard.
You need to remember that a private establishment can refuse service to you for whatever reason they want. Also, the level of apathy in this country has risen to the point where no one except the few of us on slashdot cares about privacy.
The worrisome thing is not so much that this guy's driver license was scanned using a digital scanner, but that the data is shuffled off to a database somewhere to be mined. Imagine your insurance rates going up because the insurance company did not like what you had to drink the night before.
If there was enough of us around, I would be all for picketing an establishment to deter customers from going to it because of its data-collecting policies (that goes for those stupid supermarket cards as well). The only things that hurts a company is the financial or legal consequences of its actions. Unfortunately, laws need to be made for there to be legal consequences, and we all know that the current politicans are hopeless. So that leaves hurting a company finacially somehow through meaningful consumer actions. Otherwise you might as well blow off as it does not matter a whit.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
I always get a little nervous about the combination of driving licenses and drinking. If they go through all the trouble of registering those licenses at the bars, please let them check whether the drinkers use it afterwards or not.
Trust me, I work for the government.
Oh, wait you meant identification tech. Stupid title got me confused...
Fighting over religion is like seeing whose imaginary friend is best.
It seems very very odd that in order to be able to drink somewhere you're going to get asked to prove that you'd be a danger travelling home if you were to do so?
I'm from the UK and have never had problems getting served with alcohol in the US without any photo ID (assuming I'm not carrying a passport around, which half the time I wouldn't be). I'm very obviously of legal drinking age, which helps. Sometimes you get some comic who asks to see a driving licence, but showing that there's no photograph on it usually makes them not bother asking further and serve you anyway. Once I explained how to extract the date of birth from the driver number on there (see http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DG_068315) and got the comment "You're not from round here, are you?". I still got my beer.
Let me just say really quick that these machines don't connect back into some uber secret underground database or anything. The magnetic stripe on the back of your license contains your address, your DL number, and your date of birth all stored in PLAIN TEXT! The "machine" that they scan it through is usually just a credit card reader that has a program on it to read the date. There is really nothing that evil here at all.
Everybody calm down!
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We have two barcodes on our IDs. One 1D which only has the ID number the 2D has unencrypted driver's license or identification card number, the date of birth, the expiration date, and cardholder name as well as encrypted part which has address and other items. The law has made it illegal to decrypt the barcode except for law enforcement.
Ergo, if a bar starts sending you crap after you've visited you can assume they decrypted the info. However they could still track you for the "DUI" and "Divorce" with the ID number alone, but I guess more people are worried about the spam aspect.
Error: Sig not found.
Ok...I was guessing this was more of a northeastern type thing. I get the feeling they're really MUCH more hung up on drinking laws up there. You mention having two drinks and driving home up there, and people I talk to get their panties all in a wad. Much more relaxed down here in the SE...hell, we even have drive through daquiri shops here where I live, and until 4-5 years ago I think it was, we didn't even have an open container law here.
Anyway, I've noticed over the years that the NE is much more uptight about liquor laws than in the SE. I'm not sure how bad it is out west, but, I hear it is pretty bad out there too.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
In D.C., a lot of places now card EVERYONE. I've been carded in a few restaurants. I'm pretty sure no one would think I was anywhere NEAR 21.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
Am I the only one that thought they were talking about Rage?
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I used to live in GA.... and then the past 2 years in the NC Mountains (where I did a lot of drink in both NC and SC...)... It wasn't until I moved to PA this past summer that I started seeing it being done.
What's funny is that I still have my NC license due to some issues that have me stuck between states and unable to transfer my license to PA at the moment. When I go to bars up here I've routinely caught the bouncer/doorman scanning my ID out of habit, seeing nothing show up....scan it again.... then look at it like he's confused before I have to tell him how to find the Birthdate on the license.
I'm seriously wondering after reading the article if I want to try and keep my out-of-state license just so that I can keep one without a mag-stripe on it for the bars up here to scan.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
That's right, they shouldn't dictate to you what you do when you're not at work. On the other hand, should you be able to force them to hire you, regardless? This brings into play both freedom of association and property rights. If I don't want to hire you because you smoke, tough cookies. Can I be forced to associate with you like that? Can I be forced to use my property (ie: my business) that way?
Oh, I forgot, most people don't really believe in property rights or any of those other important ones anymore. It's mostly that I'm free to do with my property as long as the majority doesn't decide to seize it from me, right?
"When peoples safety and lives are at risk there needs to be some intelligent oversight of these issues but you can't have a blanket privacy enforcement. It just doesn't work."
Where's an example of it not working? You want to keep drunk drivers in jail, here's a freaking genius idea that doesn't involve loss of privacy to people who haven't driven drunk... increase the mandatory minimum time for drunk driving offenses. Look at that, all without compromising the privacy of the majority.
As for "factual information in divorce cases", why stop there? If providing factual information in civil cases is a good reason to intrude on privacy, then everything you do ought to be recorded on the grounds that it could provide factual information for any given civil/criminal case you might find yourself in. It's the *exact* same reasoning and just as valid.
The ends doesn't justify the means.
Patriot - A fan of expanding government power and spending while not wanting to pay higher taxes.
I knew a bartender I worked with in NC who was red-carded (basically, failed a spot-check for not carding someone who came in to buy a drink...so many red-cards and you lose your ability to serve liquor) when a lady obviously in her 50's was not asked for her ID. How did she know she was of age? Attire, Hair, Grey hair, Wrinkles...Oh, and the single biggest thing the bartender could tell she was over 21....She ordered a drink that nobody has seriously drank since the 70's. Definately not a trendy or strong underager kind of drink.
Should somebody who goes to a bar with friends have the right to anonymity? They are not recording who is drinking, they are recording who enters the place with the scanner.
FTFY and the answer is Yes.
Regardless to the above, what if the bar was a 'specialty' bar?
But as I said, right to anonymity? Yes. It is necessary for privacy.
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
Ya know something kinda funny now that I think about it....
Every bar I've been too since moving to PA has had somebody at the door with a scanner. Basically... can't seem to get into a club or bar without them scanning your ID.
The Liquor store around the corner from my house.... as well as the one where I stayed for a few months in another city....Neither of them did anything more than your traditional look at the license check. Think's it's kind of funny how it's actually easier for me to go stock up on hard liquor and lots of it, than it is for me to get an over-priced watered down drink at the bar.
"Wouldn't the driver's BAC be the "smoking gun" in most DUI cases?"
.08% you should be taken to the hospital to have blood drawn for a blood test. But since this is too much of a pain in the ass for law enforcement, the legal system decided to give these machines the power to determine your guilt or innocence.
Pfft... Yeah, OK, you just keep on believing that. Just so you know, under the best of conditions the registered BAC is only accurate to 20% of it's real value. If a breathalyser suggests you are over the legal limit of
This is just another attempt to infringe upon your liberties and other hysterical and unconstitutional laws passed in the name of DUI. As far as the constitution, president Bush thinks "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"
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I quoted the wrong post. Sorry. Please attribute my statements to the parent of your post.
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By law, retaining and using this information is a felony.
So, while some national chains may think this is a great idea, they'd better start getting themselves fitted for orange jumpsuits, IMHO.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Well, your forgetting that your in different worlds here too. On the internet or with any other company/situation you have the ability to find a company that doesn't collect the information or store it.
What is really a big problem here that I think separates this from all the other invasions of privacy is that these places are taking unfair advantage of state laws that require them to verify age. If the law wasn't there, it would be a totally opt in situation like others have noted. But with the law to verify age or to not sell to a minor, you are being compelled by the state to participate if you decide to take part in a legal activity. This collection of information isn't part of the law yet it is happening because of it. And when they aren't open or inform you of their policy on these practices, it is like adding insult to injury.
I dunno about where you go to drink but the places i've seen that, don't scan your license every time your order a drink. in fact that would cause unnecessary delays in service, which equals less money for the bar. They scan the license when you go in, and being in a bar doesn't mean you were drinking. I've gone to bars as the DD and still had to be IDed. had my license scanned. if they stored the data they'd see that I went to the bar and that's it. and ooohhhhhh only about 100 other people can also say yeah he was there. but they couldn't tell if I'd been drinking, even the scan won't tell them that. and even then say I bought a round for the gang say 10 guys, does that mean I drank 10 beers in half an hour? There's so many holes in the data a bar could gather, and way too time intensive to accurately account for all the drinks sold and who drank them. This is FUD pure and simple. people are so afraid of the boogeyman collecting data on them, that they don't stop to think about the practicality of collecting the details that are necessary for that information to be of any practical use. The most you'd get is John Doe entered the bar at 10:34 pm on friday night. A credit card receipt for $60 at 11:32 That in a court of law means nothing. you need at least witnesses seeing you drink, because with just that info, it could be any number of things.
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Unless you go out to the actual DMV databases to verify information, these readers are useless against any decent fake ID(even still you could use a real person's information with a different Picture). As mentioned in the article, PDF417 is an open standard, and any decent card printing program has the ability to create these automatically from the information that is typed on the front, same with auto-encoding of magnetic strip. More fun is that with good equipment, you can re-encode most Mag strips. Re-encode your Drivers license with your credit card for maximum convince, switch the numbers on all your friends credit cards, or encode a fun message for the bouncer on the back of your DL for your next time at the bar.
You'd be surprised at how often, "You know who you remind me of? Andrew Jackson," worked back in the day. I suppose it'd have to be "Ulysses S. Grant" or even "Benjamin Franklin" these days.
"If I drank this much in America I would be an alcoholic, in Australia I'm a fucking legend"
"What do a fisherman in a boat and American beer have in common? They're both close to water"
So I'm almost completely off topic, but just wanting to point that out.
Me failed English...
FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
If someone doesn't smoke at work, doesn't preach at people, does their job, shows up on time, acts professional, etc, it should be none of the employer's business.
"The Federal Reserve is a fraudulent system."--Lew Rockwell
End The FED. -
...I brew my own beer. Screw 'em.
"False hope is why we'll never run out of natural resources!" - Lewis Black
The rights of people ought to trump the rights of corporations. Society exists to benefit people. Corporations are merely a means to make society more efficient and don't have any natural rights.
What?
/do/ get carded, usually its a swipe through a dumb machine that makes sure the information on the front matches the magstripe on the back. It doesn't connect to any database to check, not even, afaik, the ones at the PLCB Liquor Stores (Pennsylvania does not allow wine or spirits to be sold by private businesses).
I'm 21. When I
Not only that, how is this a problem for anyone over 30? Once you're that old, you're not going to get carded. Even for people like me, I haven't been carded in a while because I always go to the same places!
But say you moved: The database would say "Mr. Lynn drank heavily all over town for about 3 days, and then stopped drinking altogether." - What bartender cards you every time you come in? One at the bar I wouldn't be at!
Avoidance? Use a hefty degausser on your card, so the magstripe no longer has anything, and then "accidentally" leave a nice gouge through the 2D barcode at an angle, from top to bottom. There's no law requiring that your ID be machine readable, as far as I know.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I frequent bars. I don't drink. It's not that I _never_ drink, but if I were to divide the number of "drinks" I have ever had in public by the number of times I have been in a bar, the number would be non-zero but significantly less than one.
So the very fact that people think of this as a "drinking record" long before it is even a prevalent thing is disturbing in the extreme.
The dataset so generated is replete with "inferred fact" that is, in fact, not fact. (to alliterate nearly unto death 8-)
This is serious, and not just for the tinfoil hat crowd. The courts certianly accept data that "smells like evidence" as actual evidence with no information theory to back it up. See the copyright nonsense. See the very low bar that has been set to determine "intent to sell" especially with respect to LSD where the gross weight of drug and delivery method divided by the microgram weight of the dose, turns a guy with 6 hist of acid in his pocket into a "major distributor". (no really, look that one up.)
So these jet-fuel geniuses in court, and in your hr office, and your local child welfare office will be inferring alcoholism from barfly status.
Well, you either like booze too much, or pool too much, or talking to people too much, and since we suck at pool, and we are boring, you must be a drunk.
What a winner...
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
This makes buying a round of drinks scary. You could buy a round for your friends and not even drink alcohol. Then have a minor accident on the way home and be grilled by the local cops because they could see that you purchased 7 drinks in the last hour.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
I've always heard it as "What does having sex in a canoe have in common with Bud Light? They're both fucking close to water"
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Where I live in Southern California, all the chain gas stations and liquor stores card everyone, regardless of age, for both cigarettes and alcohol. Most use those scanners.
I love this one, they recently did it in PA.
But here's the catch: The power of addiction.
If the addicts all go up to the kitchen, and there's no meth to be had, the cook is going to say "All you addicts go and buy me 3 boxes today, 3 tomorrow at a different store, and you get a quarter off your next purchase."
Pretty soon there's gonna be a mile long line of meth addicts at the pharmacy.
They've done this in some cities here in Canada, but it's mostly to black-list trouble-makers. The bars got together and built a database to record, check, and block entry to bar customers who've started fights, carried guns, or got in trouble with the bouncers before.
Yeah, but that depends on the staff at the bar being cooperative. There is no law that they serve you, either; suppose they feel that your ID looks "tampered with"?
Does that mean that I am not getting served at one of these places? My drivers license doesn't have any bar code on it.
When I go into the bar they don't card me.
Usually when I go they greet me by name, they clear off my table,
occasionally move the other customers to a different table
and sit a pint down in front of me.
I can't drink anonymously if I tried.
If they don't want my money, fine by me. I'll patronize some place that respects me as a customer, rather than treats me as another bank card.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
it's just a 2D bar code on the back of the license is it not? (well, it is on my license at least) what's to stop you from photocopying someone else's barcode and printing out a sticker for the back of your license?
If what the article says is true, and the barcode is in an open format you could even use a barcode generator on your PC and make up fake info for it to scan up as. I would venture a guess that as long the machine goes "BEEP" the ID checker would be none the wiser.
Actually it's interesting that this topic comes up after the recent 24C3 conference, considering one of my favorite lectures (over the web, I didn't attend) was one on bar codes. Apparently you can even do SQL injection via barcode if you're feeling malicious
Collector's Edition
Out here in America we have similar jokes about lousy American beer, but we also have plenty of great beers too and no one I know drinks any of those horrid pilsners. And to any Australians who get to snobby about their beer all I've got to say is "Fosters".
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
Give that the ID tends to be one's drivers' license (I like how people refuse an 'ID Card' but seem to think using a drivers' license for the same purpose is a-OK. Ahhh the USA and cars.), wouldn't having a damaged-beyond-recognition (be it manually or automatically) end up invalidating the ID? I.e. if some trooper were to catch you speeding (hopefully not while drunk), demands your ID, you give it to him, and his scanner can't read it - couldn't that just land you in more trouble?
Just curious, really... my old passport had its plastic bit broken off, I taped it back together and lo-and-behold, it wasn't valid and I get to get an emergency one or the U.S. would happily send me back on the next flight.. even though the plastic bit is the only important bit anyway (the rest being the paper pages with stamps, showing (somehow - can't say they're very clear stamps) what countries you've been to... much the same as reading the passport and getting that data out of the databanks does in the first place.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
This differs from whipping out your credit card and running a tab how exactly?
Have gnu, will travel.
You nailed it, they don't do this to track your drinking habits or level of consumption. Around here, it is a security measure that helps keep the drug dealers out of the bar (they don't want to be on record) , or , if shit goes down and somebody gets beat up or stabbed on the premises, the police at least have a list of possible suspects.
Um, no they couldn't.
What they "can't do" and what they actually do are entirely different things.
They'll simply make the crime possession of the media, and then use the history to arrest you unless you can prove that you got rid of all but 499 CD-Rs before the law went into effect. It worked for kiddie porn and drugs, it'll work for this too.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
I guess that's true. I just had some visitors from Finland who got all excited about Sierra Nevada Ale, for example.
I wouldn't know because my taste runs more to jello body shots and speedballs. "Vive le difference", I say.
{Mrs Ratzo: just a joke, if you're reading this.)
You are welcome on my lawn.
Me failed English...
FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
That's exactly how the joke goes, and sadly it's true for the most part. Guinness and Sammy Smith(oatmeal stout) for me, thanks.
0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
It's simple liability. The bar is liable for serving too much alcohol to a patron, the liquor store (where drinking is not permitted on the premises) is not. The bar may be held liable ("risk") in some cases of violence - knowing who was there at the time may mitigate it. The liquor store is unlikely to see violence other than from someone trying to rob the place (who probably wouldn't submit to an ID scan anyway).
The problem is that the bar now has way too much information on its patrons, and likely doesn't destroy the information in a manner that respects their patrons' privacy.
(Even if the bar shouldn't be liable for violence, scanning ID may be cheaper than defending stupid lawsuits.)
Well your point about them only proving you were on the premesis certainly stands if you don't buy anything, although buildings can be licensed to disallow entry for certain ages. However, the law is that it is illegal to purchase alcohol if you are under the given age (or, separately, to purchase alcohol *for* a minor), and itemised tills certainly have an audit trail to show if you did that.
I often think I don't get carded because I'm usually buying 4 beers where a single beer that costs more than a 12-pack of "normal" beer. No way I could be under 21 and spending close to $20 on 4 beers.
0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
If they scan your ID, they know you were THERE.
If you buy liquor with CASH, the only way they can prove you drank (or bought booze, actually) is to ask eyewitnesses.
If you buy liquor with electronic means, then they can easily say "Hey, you were here, AND you bought booze" by querying databases. You suddenly become the result of a SQL query, effectively. A credit card purchase record would most likely give the SAME information, though, couldn't it?
Well, this is probably too hot to let sit in the Firehose, and maybe it's relevant:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080110/ap_on_go_ot/secure_driver_s_licenses
since I made a tangent in my comment in this article about ID Tech anyway:
" WASHINGTON - Americans born after Dec. 1, 1964, will have to get more secure driver's licenses in the next six years under ambitious post-9/11 security rules to be unveiled Friday by federal officials.
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The Homeland Security Department has spent years crafting the final regulations for the REAL ID Act, a law designed to make it harder for terrorists, illegal immigrants and con artists to get government-issued identification. The effort once envisioned to take effect in 2008 has been pushed back in the hopes of winning over skeptical state officials."
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Could someone please explain why restricting the sale of alcohol to those under 21 is worth all of the costs/consequences that follow.
Why can't we simply allow anyone who wants alcohol to buy it? Vendors can choose not to sell to certain people (ie. young children) and the public can choose whether or not to frequent businesses that sell alcohol. If a store is selling booze to eight year olds, then the public can simply boycott the business.
Sure some people become addicted to alcohol, but why should I be punished for their problems? Sure kids might obtain liquor, but surely parents are capable of addressing such a situation. Sure some people choose to drive drunk and get in a car accident that maybe kills someone, so arrest them for doing so.
By creating a system of laws around the consumption of liquor, we've simply given those in positions of authority new tools to oppress the masses. Liquor stores can be harassed by police sending in underage people. Motorists can be harassed with things like drunk-driving checkpoints. Businesses can be harassed by politicians on liquor control boards who demand bribes, kick-backs or "favors" in exchange for approving an application for a liquor license. Patrons can be harassed by establishments that resell the information on their identity cards.
I say eliminate the whole damn system. I find it doubtful that keeping it in place is less costly than doing away with it entirely.
but this 'drinking record' could also create problems for people in civil and criminal lawsuits as proof of alcohol purchases in DUI cases or evidence of alcoholism in divorce lawsuits.
As opposed to the problems that the absence of such a record creates for the victims of repeat drunk drivers and spousal abuse.
At Sears, entering driver's license number and state is enough to pull up someone's name, address and phone number. It's done during the process of applying for a credit card through them, but one can easily enough fake the "intent to apply" part, run any old number, and void it before going for credit approval.
I'm going on a limb being redundant here, but what the heck:
Just after we discussed "ID Tech May Mean an End to Anonymous Drinking"
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/10/2113240
We get:
"US to unveil key license rules Friday"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080110/ap_on_go_ot/secure_driver_s_licenses
"Americans born after Dec. 1, 1964, will have to get more secure driver's licenses in the next six years under ambitious post-9/11 security rules to be unveiled Friday by federal officials."
"The hijacker-pilot who flew into the Pentagon, Hani Hanjour, had a total of four driver's licenses and ID cards from three states. The DHS, which was created in response to the attacks, has created a slogan for REAL ID: "One driver, one license.""
What I think is crap about the "One driver, one license" (and I hope states fight HARD against it on THIS part to obtain accommodation/flexibility) is that some people who are a resident in one state start and maintain a business. That state may have a myriad of laws some of which requiring proof of identity. Also, some one who opens banking and other sensitive accounts in one name (say, someone legally modifies or marries and needs/desires a change of name) may need an audit trail of proof of identity.
Now, said person moves to another state, becomes a resident, and in theory, that state's DMV would seize the old ID and now their ID audit/paper trail is messed up.
The Feds OUGHT to do is (I suppose they already did) get a dump of all ID's and cross-reference them with the legitimately-obtained REALID issues but NOT take the old IDs away. This way, states which can validate/verify their prior issues can allow multi-state residents to satisfy banking/property/other legal issues.
Typically, California would punch a hole through the DOB on the ID obtained in another state when issuing a CA ID to someone who requested to retain their "foreign" ID. I gave legit reasoning and I was allowed to NOT have my DOB punched; I just marked it up NOT VALID IN CALIFORNIA so that if I ever went back to Oregon, I would be able to present both IDs and say, "Here, see, I am the same FACE, same DOB, same F/L NAME, Blood Type, etc."
I HOPE for the sake of those who have legit reasons similar to or better than mine can avoid ID audit trail issues. Some may say/ask "If all that's changed is address and state, then what's the big deal?", but some outside entities may decide THEY want to see ID they feel matches their own files.
As long as there's no fraud involved (and the involved entities determine that), then multiple, instead ONE ID or REAL ID should not be a problem. Still, each state will have its own requirements for demonstrating safer operation of a vehicle. Here is where driving demonstration needs to be separate from ID/Address/domicile/abode and right to vote.
I'll pause here...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I live in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis/St.Paul, MN) and I would say almost every liquor store I've been to in the last couple of years has the scanner. They actually ask you to take it out of your wallet so they can scan it...supposedly to verify that it's not fake. But I've only been in one bar MN that actually did this... My drinking habits are nobody's business but mine. Until I get a couple of DUIs or hit someone while drunk driving. THEN they can monitor my usage.
* No one can make you feel inferior without your consent *
You're correct in that only real people have rights. The question is whether a potential employee has the right to force the owners of the corporation -- other real people, not a mere legal abstraction -- to hire it, which is in no relevant way any different than questioning whether it's right for a retailer to force you to buy from it against your will. The "rights of corporations" are merely a proxy, a convenient shorthand, for the collective rights of the corporation's owners. To say that "[t]he rights of people ought to trump the rights of corporations" is to say, equivalently, that the rights of one group of people (the employees) ought to trump the rights of a different group of people (the owners). You thus undermine a most fundamental principle of any free society: equality under the law.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
I also heard hemp makes great shampoo.
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
1. Carry a passport and use that as ID. For almost any purpose that does not require proof of authorization to drive or proof of address, that should suffice.
2. When you show your passport or ID in a bar or restaurant to prove your age, keep a hold on it! Don't let it out of your hand, let alone your sight.
Fizz
Note that many people do indeed consider cookies a privacy violation even though they typically don't have as much potential as these ID scans to cause harm. And those people, if they're informed enough to know, have an option -- turn off cookies. That's minimally what this type of article is about: informing people so they can make a choice. (I certainly wasn't aware that this was going on...)
This has been going on for years. Back in 1999 or 2000 I went into an MGM liquor store and paid cash for a bottle of rum. The cashier asked for my ID, which because I had worked in a store selling beer I IDed everyone myself I had no problem showing it, however she then scanned it. I asked her what she was doing and she said company policies required everyone who bought alcohol or tobacco to have their IDs scanned. If I had known she was going to scan it I would have simply left without handing it over. As it is I have never gone back into an MGM store.
Can I avoid these scanners if I so choose? Well, I can choose not to drink in places that use them, but might that eventually mean choosing not to drink?
It won't stop me from drinking. I don't drink much to begin with, I still have 3 bottles of beer from a 12 pack I bought a few months ago, but I can always make my own drinks. I home brew, er I used to but want to start brewing again. A couple of weeks ago I was going through my brew equipment and found a brew kit for some smoked ale that expired and went bad as well as some grains.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I don't get it, whats the problem if "... but this 'drinking record' could also create problems for people in civil and criminal lawsuits as proof of alcohol purchases in DUI cases or evidence of alcoholism in divorce lawsuits."
This is not a Privacy case. Privacy happens AT HOME. If you are in your local pub that scans your ID, then what difference is that record to the bartenders oath? If you have a problem with the TRUTH, then DONT DRINK.
This Privacy thing burns my *SS because you people want your drinking records private, and that is happening in a public establishment. BUT you want to control the public establishment and limit smoking.
Get a clue. You can't have it both ways.
Really, this is paranoia to the Nth degree...
--- Relax, that mass muderer is just trying to reduce our carbon footprint, one fetus at a time...
True for the most part? You sir, are mistaken. The US brews more specialty beers than anywhere. If you're here and you're drinking canoe beer, it's your own dumb fault for thinking US beer sucks.
If you live near a BevMo, go there looking for beer. Screw your head on tight and GO!
Well, I do salute the effort...
Carlton Draught.
Fortunately, they appear to be illegal in my state already: RSA 263:12, X, 260:14.
Liberty in your lifetime
Actually, I agree with you as long as we're talking about companies that are privately held by a few people. In that case, freedom of association wins.
Corporations, on the other hand, should be regulated tightly. Because they have a legal obligation to put profit ahead of everything else, and because they have so many layers of middle management, they'll do anything that'll increase the perception of profitability unless it's illegal. There's power without anything but financial responsibility, and unfortunately, lots of evil things don't have financial consequences.
If a person on the street can't help but bite everyone who he sees, he's insane, and we put him in a mental health facility. It's not his fault, but we need to remove some of his rights in order to protect society. The same principle applies to corporations: they can't help but be vicious profit-hungry monsters, so we must restrain them.
This may have been going on for years in some places -- though keep in mind, this isn's just about the act of scanning the card, it's about what's being done with the information. Do you know, do you only assume, or do you not care whether the store actually stored and later shared your info?
That's really my point: While having my card scanned would make me suspicious, and apparently you as well, that puts us both in the minority. Most people I know wouldn't care about their card being scanned unless someone told them that the information was being kept and used in ways they might not like.
By the way, even just scanning the cards has not been going on for years where I am (MO). Nor anywhere I've had a drink. In fact, I've never run into it. And I'll be happily surprised if I never do.
Anyhow, if you don't go out to drink and don't care about buying alcohol other than your own brew, good for you; this article tells you nothing you need to know. That again puts you in the minority, unfortunately.
Once again proving Headlines are not news. RTFA idiot.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
Seeing as how alcohol is a depressant and a drug, should we be happy that it's finally being treated as the dangerous neurological inhibitor that it is?
Consider yourself spoken to.
Corporations, on the other hand, should be regulated tightly. Because they have a legal obligation to put profit ahead of everything else
Actually corporations' first obligation is the advancement of the common or public good. Corporations were originally granted their charter for the public good but if the corporation no longer served that purpose the charter could be revoked. In 1602 the Dutch East India Company was granted a corporate charter, and was the first to issue stocks, for this very reason. And 2 year later the Honourable East India Company was granted the charter for the same reason.
Of course today corporations are no longer held to the stipulation that they improve the common good.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I'd do it myself if I had any points left.
Bring back Sirius Punk!
I wish there were just one politician with the balls to be honest and say "yeah, I could say that this is for your safety or to help make the world a better place, but really we just want to invade your privacy so that we can have a society increasingly under central control." They are too cowardly to be so honest and it's fitting that they are elected by people too cowardly to value freedom more than security.
In a way Ron Paul said something like this. He was interviewed on CNN and he came right out and said point blank that if he were elected president one of the things he would do would be to pardon people in prison for drug offenses. I'm not sure exactly who he meant but from what he said I think that he meant those who were busted for possession and were users.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Frankly I think society is far too permissive of alcoholism and drunk driving, and I'd like to see that changed.
I too would change the law, but I'd do it differently. I'd lower the legal blood alcohol level and make it harder for someone convicted of dwi/dui to get a new license. You may do the same but here's what I'd change you may not agree with, I'd allow parents to order and serve alcoholic beverages to their minor children, both at home and while dining out.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Not the privacy issue; it's bad for bars to be surreptitiously recording their patrons identity, whether they do it with a scanner or if they just write down names when they check IDs -- forget the technology, it's creepy regardless. But the underaged drinking issue is win-win. The bars win because if they scan the IDs and they come up good, they've checked the ID and are protected from punishment for serving minors. The underaged drinkers win because they get served. And the geeks making the fake IDs win, because it's easier to make working fakes if they're just going to be run through a scanner and not closely examined.
It's also used for in Coors Brewery, but i just thought that they were being extra cautious.
There's no such thing as a stupid question, but there sure are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
This may have been going on for years in some places -- though keep in mind, this isn's just about the act of scanning the card, it's about what's being done with the information. Do you know, do you only assume, or do you not care whether the store actually stored and later shared your info?
I have suspicions but no I don't know what's done when they scan IDs. And I do care, no matter what they do, otherwise I would not of stopped going there. The same goes with other purchases I make, as much as I can I pay cash, about the only tyme I willingly use either check card or credit card is when I grocery shop. Even then though I try to pay cash at least when I go to one of the coops I belong to as using these cards costs them more money than paying with cash.
By the way, even just scanning the cards has not been going on for years where I am (MO). Nor anywhere I've had a drink. In fact, I've never run into it. And I'll be happily surprised if I never do.
Besides MGM I've been in two other stores that scan ID when buying alcohol, both grocery stores. So I don't buy alcohol from them either.
Anyhow, if you don't go out to drink and don't care about buying alcohol other than your own brew, good for you; this article tells you nothing you need to know. That again puts you in the minority, unfortunately.
Obviously I do buy alcohol in stores. Though I want to start again I haven't brewed in years. Also I don't have a still and mostly I buy snaps, rum, and tequila.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Ok...I was guessing this was more of a northeastern type thing. I get the feeling they're really MUCH more hung up on drinking laws up there. You mention having two drinks and driving home up there, and people I talk to get their panties all in a wad.
That's probably because our drunken morons tend to kill and maim people.
A while back, a drunk driver killed the single mother of three teen-age girls, and got off with probation "because he hadn't killed anybody before."
One guy spent the night bar-hopping, then ran his boat completely over a couple of newlyweds and killed them. his excuse was "He didn't want to get a ticket for parking overnight at the public dock".
Another guy did pretty much the same thing on another local lake and killed some more innocent boaters. Yet another was a teenager who killed people with his daddy's Ferrari after drinking and buying beer at a local gas station.
I'd be happy if the drinking age was raised to "I'm no longer an irresponsible moron." and bars made a big public deal that they scan and record IDs from their patrons.
It's still early in the year, give it more tyme.
FalconShould there be a Law?
The Feds OUGHT to do is (I suppose they already did) get a dump of all ID's and cross-reference them with the legitimately-obtained REALID issues but NOT take the old IDs away. This way, states which can validate/verify their prior issues can allow multi-state residents to satisfy banking/property/other legal issues.
BS! The feds not only have no reason to do this but also has no constitutional authority to do so. You want to give the feds that authority then propose an amendment to the constitution.
FalconShould there be a Law?
That's because weed wasn't legal when they made alcohol illegal ;-)
If by "weed" you mean hemp aka marijuana, it was legal prior to and during Prohibition. Prohibition in the United States was from 1920 to 1933. Hemp was made illegal by the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937. Prior to it's passage hemp, those who demonized it called it marijuana, was perfectly legal. Many of the USA'a Founding Fathers even grew hemp on their farms. Thomas Jefferson once said farmers should be required to grow hemp, however because he knew such a law would limit farmers' right he never proposed it.
FalconShould there be a Law?
No, what needs to happen is a little education of the public and then vote with your feet. I still will not enter a store because they use ID scanners. I have absolutely no problem driving out of my way to an Apple Valley liquor store to buy beer because they don't scan. I still tell them, every time, that I'm there because they protect my privacy.
Apple Valley? Over on Lyndale a few minutes walk I know of two liquor stores, a few of bars, but mostly some cafes. I've been in one of the liquor stores and they don't card, well they haven't carded me. Then again right up the road is that college.
FalconShould there be a Law?
All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
Paying in cash does not necessarily work. Look at the recent bill to regulate pseudoephedrine containing products, like the Claritin-D I use for allergies. Regardless of whether you pay cash you still have to give them your personal information in order to buy it (either by scanning your photo ID or for the low-tech stores by the clerk writing your ID info into a big book they keep).
Of course paying in cash prevents retroactive laws like the one mentioned by the GP.
-ZA
Mod parent up. I'm an Aussie and I've had some truly outstanding, world-class US beers. The craft-beer industry over there is exploding and, quite frankly, one of the most exciting things to happen to the beer industry world-wide in centuries.
Absolutely not. I think personally it's kind of fucked up for a company to not hire you based on smoking habits, but then if you think it's wrong just don't work for that company. Honestly, racism is absolutely stupid to me but if a company doesn't want to hire someone based on race, that's their choice. This is the land of choice. If you want to be racist, that's fine as long as it doesn't infringe on others. I'd say your own business doesn't necessarily infringe on others; They choose to deal with you or not. If I'm paying you, you're damned right I'm going to take EVERYTHING about you into account. It's my money, why should the government have a say in how I spend it?
:(){
And that's legal? Or more to the point, legally required? I thought that all states had to give full faith and credit to the laws of other states. Which should include driver's licenses as well. Individuals from other states do have a legal right to buy alcohol if they are old enough to do so, they shouldn't be barred from doing so just because they use an out of state driver's license.
I think around here we had issues a while back when the card format was changed. Now if you see a WA driver's license, the picture will be either landscape or portrait depending upon whether the person was over or under 21 at age of issue.
I heard of some problems with bars refusing to recognize the older IDs afterwards. I have no idea as to whether any of them got slapped with a law suit for discrimination though.
I have never seen any bar using a barcode scanner to scan drivers licenses. I don't have any barcodes on my drivers license. And for most people it makes no sense to bring a drivers license when you're drinking (don't drink and drive), so any scheme that requires a driving license as identification is beyond harebrained. Let me guess, this is a US-specific article?
Fosters? No one in Australia drinks Fosters. It's just cat's piss that we export to the rest of the world. I'm not sure if we even bother to make it fizzy first.
Fortunately, "retroactive" laws are called ex post facto, and forbidden by the Constitution. Not that that document has stopped lawmakers and Presidents in the past.
The open society has always been under attack. Mostly by social conservatives, but from the left as well. The whole opposition to the Civil Rights Act, and the idea that you can't discriminate against blacks in hiring, is couched in terms of "employers should be free to hire who they want..." and so on. But then there's my Klan example above, and I can't say that I wouldn't discriminate against someone I felt to be a racist, or a homophobe.
How do employers deal with the 'evangelizing at work' thing? How do you convey in an interview "we want Christians working here, but keep the proseletyzing at home"?
"this 'drinking record' could also create problems for people in civil and criminal lawsuits as proof of alcohol purchases in DUI cases" I mean, I can see some other reasons that this might be a bad system, but I don't think this is one of them ...
Civil disobedience is breaking the law. Thoreau and MLK both broke the law, deliberately, to highlight that the law was unjust. That is civil disobedience. You're welcome.
It's because the north east is where all the politicians go to "blow off steam" and hard drinking and driving is part of the deal. They all "know" better and even vote to tell the rest of us not too!
One of the things that has been interesting to me here is the difference of how prohibited goods like alcohol and cigarettes are treated in terms of minors.
Yea, when I was there parents could legally order and serve their minor child an alcoholic drink. I found it natural to see someone order a glass of wine or a beer for a minor. Try that in the US and you'll be lucky if you're not arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a minor and lose custody of the child.
I must say, I always get screwed when I come back to America to visit and try to go to a bar or buy beer, because I have completely gotten used to not having to bring an ID with me, even though I am clearly over 18/21.
It bothered me some when I was with some friends and we went to a bar (in the US), though I could be the oldest person I'd be the only one carded. This happened even when I was in my 30s and I had a beard.
In Germany, you only have to be 16 to buy alcohol. There is talk of raising this (and the cigarette age) up to 18, but frankly, it won't make much of a difference given the easy access to either substance. The really [i]nice[/i] thing about this is that you are therefore of drinking age before you are able to drive. Thus, by the time that kids learn how to drive, they've already learned how to hold their liquor, and are less likely to make a stupid mistake like getting behind the wheel.
That's why I oppose laws making it illegal for parents to serve their children alcohol. There's a big difference between letting a teenager sip alcohol some and letting them drink so much they get drunk. Allowing them to drink a little allows them to get used to drinking responsibly. In the US though it's not uncommon for a young adult to go a on a binge and drink too much once they reach the age of maturity.
none of that 3.2% crap
My fav beer there was a smoked beer. One of the the things I brought back with me was an empty 1 letter bottle I got at a festival. I also brought back a love for espresso and I ended up filling the bottle with some to take with me to many places. And straight not au lait, with milk.
FalconShould there be a Law?
This supposed system uses drivers license information, so hand them your passport (you have a passport right?). I'm willing to bet this "system" isn't set up for passports (yet).
~ In Trust, We Trust ~
~ In Trust, We Trust ~
Apparently Someone has an axe to grind......from the Mfr's site,Need I say more?
Jeffrey Levy, age 64, was elected a director in December 1999.member of the United States Air Force from which he retired as a colonel in 1988.
He serves as a board member of the Northern Virginia Chapter of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, the Washington Regional Alcohol Program, the Zero Tolerance Coalition and the National Drunk and Drugged Driving Prevention Month Coalition and is a member of the Virginia Attorney General's Task Force on Drinking by College Students and MADD's National Commission on Underage Drinking.
In NY State, the law is very clear. Most of the data can't be retained, and that can be, can't be s
http://www.hawknest.com/
The US brews more specialty beers than anywhere.
Umm. No. Germans/Belgians/UK have more breweries.
There are some really ace breweries from US such as Anchor and Sierra Nevada, but they simply do not have the numbers. Unless you count everyone with a vat in the backroom as a brewery.
And of course you can define "specialty beer" in a way that would support your claim, but if we just take it to mean anything except standard Lager.
You couldn't even tell if you cross-referenced with credit card information. One mixed drink might cost the same as two beers or four sodas, so anyone looking to use that info wouldn't be able to prove that the individual who went to the bar actually drank.
I bet the America West pilot and co-pilot who received prison sentences for attempting to fly an Airbus while both were drunk wish they had paid cash for that infamous $142.28 bar tab.
I often think I don't get carded because I'm usually buying 4 beers where a single beer that costs more than a 12-pack of "normal" beer. No way I could be under 21 and spending close to $20 on 4 beers.
That's probably true. Someone I know asked the clerk at the convenience store where he normally buys his beer why it was that he'd get carded there some times and not others, and was told that it was pretty much based on how expensive the beer was.
I can't figure out why I've almost never gotten carded even though I'm under 30, people usually think I'm even younger than I actually am, and to top it off I still get carded sometimes for R-rated movies.
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
"if a company doesn't want to hire someone based on race, that's their choice."
Really? Is that how it works? And what about when everyone takes that choice, as happened in the past?
Your free market is not as self rgulating as you like to think, nor should it be allowed to run entirely free.
weve had these up here for a few years now and I'll let you in on what we did about bars that got these. we dont go in. ever again. we close any bar that has an ID scanner. after a few got closed down because of these they started getting the hint and a few places removed them. You dont find them anymore in the good Clubs in toronto.
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
I guess you've noticed you can't buy beer in a convenience store or grocery store. You can get it by the case only at "distributors", or by the six pack as a carry-out at a bar. You can't carry out wine at a bar - unless it's also a restaurant and you drank some of the bottle with your meal. Then it's ok. But you can't carry out liquor.
You can only buy liquor at state-run stores, (but they don't sell tonic and such - you have to get that at the grocery store). You can get wine at the state stores or at the winery, but not at bars or distributors (although they sell "wine coolers"). If you buy wine from another state, you are legally required to have it shipped to and buy it through a state-run store (like anybody actually does this).
The hours of these establishments are strictly regulated. I've seen distributors close with people still in line because they can get fined for having the register open after 5:00 on a Sunday. Likewise, most of the state stores are closed on Sunday.
Of course, if you live near the border (like me), you probably just drive to the next state where it's cheaper and you don't have to deal with the stupidity.
Anyway, welcome to PA. Be sure to check your sanity at the border.
While it's highly objectionable to collect this sort of information in the first place, it's clear from history that the vast majority of citizens won't object until it starts to be misused. If citizens do begin to find that they are forced to register purchases of certain types of goods that are later used to convict them, publicly impugn their reputation or otherwise persecute them, it stands to reason that a black market for such goods would arise in conjunction with public outcry. Additionally, as a homebrewer, I can tell you it's incredibly easy to ferment alcoholic beverages and simple even to distill them to higher concentrations of alcohol (especially by fractional freezing), so if your concern is simply the procurement of alcohol without registration of some sort you have nothing to fear.
The point to be taken away here IMHO is that practices of this sort lay bare the Puritanical and authoritarian undercurrents in American society and government insofar as collecting/using this information further demonizes a form of established social interaction that has been practiced throughout the known world for all of recorded history. American government tends to be overly concerned with ensuring that the populace is more highly policed when it should be concerning itself with its citizens' wellbeing, and tends to perpetuate the cycle by creating an environment of fear in which the populace can be more easily convinced that surveillance, etc. are necessary.
Fear is the mind-killer.I live in the US and quite frankly, I've never seen one of these scanners. I wouldn't swipe my drivers license through it either for the reasons the article mentions. However, if you need to show ID, any ID will do. I myself always have my Permanent Resident card on me (it's also an ID, issued by the federal government nonetheless) as well as other things that state my birthdate and stuff.
If they want to know, they can manually check it, if they insist on entering my information in a database, too bad for them, I can drink a lot and don't mind dropping a $100 to eat and drink for two persons and I'm a good tipper too.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
At least paying in cash at a place with a paper log book makes
SELECT dl_no ,
name_last ,
address ,
SUM(pills_purchased)
FROM pseudoephedrine_purchases
GROUP BY dl_no ,
name_last ,
address
HAVING SUM(pills_purchased) > &no_knock_warrant_threshold
a good deal less likely.
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
I suspect it is mostly a he said/she said thing without some extensive research, but I would honestly be surprised to learn that Germany/Belgium/UK have more breweries than the US (taken individually; maybe if you mean all three together). Here's why: size.
The US is HUUUUGE. Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen breweries in NC alone. And by brewery, I mean commercially distributed. One in particular I like isn't widely distributed outside the area it is brewed in, but you can walk into stores and buy it in some places, so I count it as a legitimate brewery. There are probably at least a dozen more (likely dozens) in NC alone like that; I simply haven't found them yet.
Now, maybe NC is a brew happy state, but I doubt it (in fact, there is at least one county I know of where you can't even buy beer). And of course, I don't have any real data on the number of breweries in the UK/Belgium/Germany, but given the physical size, I suspect you'd have to stack breweries on top of one another to have as many as are (probably) in the US. Again, I'll admit I don't have any actual data, this is all conjecture based on extrapolation, but I doubt anyone does have any actual data.
p.s. I drink pale ales and stouts, so any brewery I enjoy is producing more than just a standard Lager.
...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
I don't think I've ever been carded for an R rated movie or any movie lol. My friends in NYC never get carded at Sake bombing places it seems like and a lot of delis and some restaurants dont card either. Same with some clubs. I got carded for buying a lighter the other day in a Rite Aid, but they didnt actually card, they just asked me my birthday and as I was pulling my id out they said it was fine. Also when I bought my friend (who's over 18 but ID-less) Dutch Masters at a Duane Reade, they carded me.
Yeah but you can also get an easy prescription for weed and walk into a store which sells it :P
Whether or not what they do is "evil" (a purely subjective term), if they aren't violating the rights of others -- i.e. doing something that is rightfully illegal -- then there's no justification for violating their rights in turn. Actions taken on behalf of hundreds or thousands of shareholders are in this way no different from actions taken by any individual.
I would not agree that locking someone up in a mental institution is a reasonable or justifiable response to a physical assault such as biting. A "mental health facility" can be a wonderful tool, but only when the patient chooses to employ it. To arbitrarily label someone "insane" and force them to enter such an institution for the purpose of remaking them into someone more suitable to yourself is to treat a human being as if it were merely a misbehaving performing animal, incapable of self-determination. A far more humane response would be to allow the offender to choose whether the assault is to be considered an accident or a deliberate action, the former being represented by checking himself into such a facility and the latter carrying all the normal penalties of an intentional assault.
Anyway, the whole argument is irrelevant here because the owners of the corporation, while often irresponsible, are clearly not insane. If in the course of seeking profits they cause harm to someone else, then they must make good the damage caused just as any individual would in the same circumstances; in no event does the mere fear of future harm justify the removal of present rights.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
I live in the Dallas Ft. Worth area. It varies town by town here. The town I live in is required to scan licenses at every bar no matter your age. In downtown Dallas they visually check your ID but I look way over 21 so not sure why. I have also lived in California, North Carolina, South Carolina, Idaho, and Arizona and Texas has been the only state to actually scan a drivers license. If you have an out of state license they make you fill out a form with the same information and sign it.
Just set me up a basic sig... 10 PRINT "Gordon Aplin" : GOTO 10
That's definatly a modern twist (the joke having existed long before the abomination that is Bud Light). i also dissaprove of this version as it implies most other American beers aren't like that.
Unfortunately, it is not that easy where I live. Different counties in California handle the law differently, and the county I live in does not allow dispensaries, and generally ignores prescriptions and medical use excuse.
Most major commercial American beers may be like that. But come to Colorado, or go to Oregon... there are some stellar microbrews that are better than anything I've had elsewhere.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
We say the same thing about Bud/Coors/Miller, etc, but sadly some of it doesn't get exported, and stays here.
More beer != good/better beer. I've tried many of the micro-breweries and most suck. Someone below mentioned Sierra Nevada beer which I could drink, if they were out of horse piss. Seriously, just because there are many, it doesn't mean that any of them are actually good. Besides, many micro-breweries haven't gotten their recipes stabilized yet so they don't have quite a consistent product as they need.
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In our local "liquor warehouse" type store German/UK/Belgian beers take up over 2/3 of the shelf space and those are just the beers from those countries that they could get any info on, the smaller breweries can't necessarily afford to market to distributors here in the US. And we have at least 3 micro-breweries in my city alone, but that doesn't make them good...and they're not.
0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
ah good to know.. lol jkjk everyone reading this who may employ me ;) actually to be truly honest i've quit or mostly quit, so whatever
... or bicycle to a bar.
There's an unstated assumption in the article (and in the alleged practice), that people will routinely carry their driving license with them when going out. Assuming that they have a driving license - which not everyone has. It also assumes that the criteria for getting a drink are similar to those for getting a driving license.
Is the driving license being used as a de facto State Identity Card? Of course it is. Stupid. Inaccurate. Non-universal. Easily-forged. Can be removed from a person by administrative fiat. Contains irrelevant information. Certainly seems to have all the characteristics necessary for a State Identity Card.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
I wonder where everybody has been. They have been collecting data on you for years. Just what do you think you are doing when you use one of those grocery cards?
Use a credit card to pay for purchases? They have all that data, and they use it.
Linking purchases with identities has been going on a very long time now. People have not been paying very much attention to it.
It may have been true that with cash at a bar, you could conduct your business anonymously. However, the push to link all transaction details with an identity is just too tempting for data miners, and puritanical special interests. Under the guise of protecting society there are now forcing even cash purchases to be verified and recorded.
I'm shocked, not that this is happening, but that it is news to some people.
I suspect it is mostly a he said/she said thing without some extensive research, but I would honestly be surprised to learn that Germany/Belgium/UK have more breweries than the US (taken individually; maybe if you mean all three together). Here's why: size.
The US is HUUUUGE.
You learn something new every day!
On the number of bottled beers you're probably right. However, since US doesn't have much of a tradition in beers unlike said european countries, you're going to lose on the "specialty" market. Incidentally, I forgot to mention Czech. My bad.
Since everyone knows anecdotes are 100% valid arguments on any debate, here's the selection of our national state-owned liquor store on beers:
Belgium: 26 items
UK: 26 items
Germany: 25 items
Czech: 17 items
US: 7 items
Doesn't really matter that you've got 4x population of Germany if 90% of those that drink beer at all drink the bloody budweiser.. "Specialty" is a bit misleading because you have pretty big selection of mild (=4.7%) beers in bigger grocery stores, so it's not like you have to go to a specialist pub to get your stuff. Of course if you do, you can get even more obscure products not commercially imported to stores..
Most popular beer in Czech is "specialty" beer.. British have been good at pissing on their heritage preferring relatively tasteless dutch lagers, thought. Good for getting wasted, thought.