The ThinkPad Takes On The MacBook Air

An anonymous reader writes "Walt Mossberg has an early look at the ThinkPad X300, Lenovo's answer to the MacBook Air. He says the ThinkPad is almost as skinny and light as the Air, but has many of the ports and features lacking on Apple's machine. The biggest downside: it costs much more and will be limited to a paltry 64 gigabytes of storage. 'Unlike the Apple, which can be ordered with a higher-capacity, lower-priced hard disk, the new ThinkPad will only be available with the expensive, limited capacity solid-state drive. So it will start at between $2,500 and $2,800-up to $1,000 more than the Apple's base price.'"

Comments

Design

[Scutter]

And yet, somehow it's still just as ugly as every other Thinkpad.

Re:Design

[Dancindan84]

I think of a laptop is a tool, so aesthetics really aren't something I care about. The Thinkpad is solid and rugged. I'll take that over pretty any day.

Re:Design

[mgblst]

Or, as beautiful as every other thinkpad, depending on your taste.

Personally, you can take those grey shells that Dell, Toshiba and Sony pump out and shove them - they have never had any design done on them at all, clearly.

Re:Design

[Corporate Troll]

I think of a laptop is a tool, so aesthetics really aren't something I care about.

Let me guess: you aren't married? ;-)

Re:Design

[Dancindan84]

Actually I just got married in July. I'm a colorblind programmer/analyst and my wife's a grade school teacher. I'll give you 1 guess which one of us looks after the aesthetic stuff. :-)

Re:Design

[Corporate Troll]

Pretty much the same situation for me (except that I'm not colorblind and she is a kindergarten teacher).... Go and try buy something technical with her and see how far you get until it hits "it's ugly" or "so many cables" mantra. I've only been married since July 2005 and I am fully aware of the Wife Acceptance Factor.

Of course, a laptop will not be in permanent visual range of your wife, so it may have a lower WAF, as long as you store it in a pretty bag. ;-) Anything from Gucci, Longchamp, or Louis Vuitton will probably do. ;-)

Re:Design

[Dancindan84]

Ouch, you have to take your wife to get technical stuff? I run into that buying cars, but technical stuff is all me. She gets to pick the drapes/sheets etc without my input, I get to do the computers without her's. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Re:Design

[Eunuchswear]

My Sony isn't grey, it's black. It weighs 1.2 Kg in place of the macbooks bloated 1.4 kg, It's made of carbon fiber, not tacky aluminium, and it has a DVD drive. So, it's 3cm thick at it's thickest in place of the macbooks 2cm. Big deal.

So, tell me how exciting the macbook is again.

Re:Design

[Corporate Troll]

Well, no, I buy the tech stuff too. However, she'll get bitchy when you come home with something that really doesn't fit. You're too recently married. You'll know what I talk about in a year or two.

It also depends a lot on where and how the device is going to be used. If you do not have an office (in Europe space comes at a premium), the computer is often in the living room. You can bet that an ugly looking Dell box won't come over well. A nice pretty iMac on the other hand (which has much less cables).... I've heard of a few geeks that had to put their PC in a closet so that "it wouldn't be visible". Sad, but true....

Luckily my wife didn't even *know* Apple before meeting me and has an ugly Fujitsu Siemens desktop. She wants a Mac now, and I said I'd buy her one of her current machine doesn't work anymore. The odds to that stand on my side: the machine is from 2003, had a few minor upgrades (more RAM, better graphics card, bigger harddisk) and is managed by me. Unless the motherboard breaks, that machine will be with us for many more years ;-)

Re:Design

[Dancindan84]

We're in a two bedroom apartment and our computer stuff is in the living room. I have two towers (one an old beige one, and the other a giant Thermaltake Xazer III with a side window) connected via KVM with an open spot for computers I'm working on when moonlighting as a tech for small businesses in the evening. If big towers and lots of cables are an issue, I'm in for a big fight. -.-

Re:Design

[Corporate Troll]

Two bedroom apartment. Everything computer related is relegated to our "office" (being the second bedroom). Computers in the livingroom are a big no-no. I even had to cut back: my beloved AMD Athlon XP 2400+ / 4Gig RAM is gone because it was louder than a vacuum cleaner. Her PC is "only" a P-IV 2.6MHz HT / 2Gig RAM, but it's much quieter. Also, my complete "spare pieces" storage had to go too. My spare pieces storage is now at my parents, which is nice, but if I need something, I always have to drive over.

I fear the day we have kids, I'll have to give away all my gear and go laptop-only.

But as said, you're too recently married. Sooner or later the issue will come up. Believe me.... They close their grip slowly, but tightly.

Where are my days as beer drinking and pizza eating geeky bachelor? *deep sigh*

Re:Design

[mini me]

So, tell me how exciting the macbook is again.

Your Sony doesn't (legally) run OS X. No problem if you're a Windows user, but if you're a Windows user you're not going to be looking at Macs anyway.

Re:Design

[Itninja]

They're not ugly!! They're minimalist. Minimalist!! It's all about substance over style.

Re:Design

[LynnwoodRooster]

Yes, Dell's are grey. Or White. Or Black. Or Blue. Or Red. Heck, there were even pink and yellow shades available, too...

Or the carbon fiber options on Sony's. Or brushed aluminum of Panasonics. There's lots of options out there in the PC world, you don't have to live with the two colors that Steve decides are "hip", you know...

Re:Design

[Alomex]

Yeah, because the toilet seat mac laptop in cheap plastic was such an epithomy of design. Have you run into one lately or an old original iMac? They are butt ugly, yet people were going gagga over them when first released. Talk about reality distortion field! The original iPod now looks klunky and unfinished.

In fact the MacAir with its tapered looks is also vaguely reminiscent of a toilet seat. I had a peek at a production model about a week before it was announced and my only thought was "this is ugly" (the laptop was open, otherwise perhaps the thinness would have stood out more).

p.s. The design of the white powerbooks, the thin white iMacs and the smaller iPods have stood better to ageing.

Re:Design

[Eunuchswear]

Windows? Who the hell uses windows? I run Debian Sid on my Sony.

Re:Design

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I think of a laptop is a tool, so aesthetics really aren't something I care about. The Thinkpad is solid and rugged. I'll take that over pretty any day.

As I pointed out in another comment, Apple's laptops actually have a lower failure rate than Lenovo's; according to consumer reports.So the impartial testing of a third party strongly indicates that your implicit assertion that Thinkpads are more "solid and rugged" is actually untrue.

Re:Design

[Dancindan84]

Lenovo and Thinkpad are not one and the same. Lenovo now makes Thinkpads, but they also make their own brand as well:
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/na/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:CompareByNeed?current-category-id=653343E0DE54435882FABC3CE1BC569A If consumer reports included the Lenovo laptops as well as Thinkpads (If they included Thinkpads at all), it could and would skew those results.

Re:Design

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Lenovo and Thinkpad are not one and the same... If consumer reports included the Lenovo laptops as well as Thinkpads (If they included Thinkpads at all), it could and would skew those results.

That isn't likely since IBM also had and higher failure rate than Apple for laptops, for many years running now.

ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[morgan_greywolf]

And they probably will continue to be.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[darjen]

How do you figure? These prices seem pretty reasonable to me.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Lally Singh]

There's a certain price range for a laptop of certain build quality. I can't speak to the current Lenovos --- haven't used them. But, I remember some of the older ones being built like tanks. I'd put their build quality up there as high as the old HP calculators.

The Pro line of apple laptops has been about the same, too (that's what I use). I wouldn't dream of taking the sub-$1000 boxes around with me all day. On the PC line, it'd be a good thinkpad or a well-built toshiba.

Maybe I'm just old and prejudiced on this. The cheap laptops I've seen out of dell make me afraid to relax my hands on them: they'd literally creak.

But, that all does really depend on how you use the machine. If it's mostly a desktop, I'm sure that the ~$500 boxes are fine for daily use.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

The premium price used to buy a fairly robust machine; somewhat more durable than the competition. As they get smaller and lighter, the durability factor has become questionable.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[slaker]

There is no such thing as a well built Toshiba. There probably were some 10 or 15 years ago, but Toshiba is a company that, like Sony, trades on its name in place of any actual quality. Not that I'm bitter about the shitty laptops I have to support.
However, speaking to the quality of current Thinkpads... my cat managed to knock my T61 off my desk a couple weeks ago. It fell four feet or so on to a hardwood floor.
There's a ding on the floor. My Thinkpad is fine.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[kellyb9]

And Mac's are the epitomy of reasonable pricing?????

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[bhtooefr]

This is an interesting post, FWIW... I know it's on Lenovo's blogs, but...

http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=93

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[hey!]

Well, it depends on how much you value quality.

I'm not rough on laptops, but I'm a heavy user. On my laptops, the labels on the most used keys are worn off in about eighteen months. Even if you are careful, you encounter quite a few mishaps when you use laptops like I do, like the time my laptop fell off a 3 1/2 foot tall lab bench onto a concrete floor while doing a long database transaction, and carried on.

I feel I've always got good use value of my Thinkpads, although I haven't bought a Lenovo branded one yet. When it's time to replace, the old ones go up into the attic to run as Linux servers.

Most recently I bought a Toshiba, and the thing has felt like it was falling apart on day one. After less than a year, the keyboard is failing. The ACPI is buggy, and the BIOS setup screen only gives you the most rudimentary options. I dual boot Linux and Vista, and the laptop's Linux compatibility is extremely poor. I was sitting with somebody whose foot snagged the power cord when he got up -- a common mishap with laptops -- and ripped the power receptacle right out of the laptop, which meant I had to take the thing apart and repair it with a soldering iron. I never understand why laptop makers don't provide a breakaway cord, but despite this happening a number of times on my Thinkpads, I never had any problem like that.

Overall, if you count the reduced durability and increase aggravation and time wasting I've had with the "bargain" Toshiba, it wasn't much of a bargain.

Ever see the exotic equipment that an elite athlete like a cyclist has? It's a waste of money for the average rider. Shaving a half pound off your bike isn't going to make much difference unless you are the kind of rider who spends a thousand hours a year or more in the saddle. Same here. If you spend more than a thousand hours a year on your laptop, a thousand bucks more for a slightly better one is money well spent.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Idbar]

Wow! First time I head someone talking that well about toshibas on /.

I've only had toshibas, one felt from my hands while I was writing on the hard drive, bounce on the floor and kept working for 2 more years with no problem (of course 3 years for a computer that was totally abused, I think is great). My current laptop is a Toshiba, and I'll keep buying them.

The reason why I buy them? Different than Apple's they.. really.. just work. Recently, to take their prices down, they fill them with tons of bloatware, which is a bit annoying, but the price difference you find between those and Apple/Lenovos/Sony is huge, and Toshiba built their computers, mostly, with their own toshiba parts. I love it! And CNET still have the best ultra portable to be a Toshiba!
 
We'll see if they can keep it up with the Apple aggressive marketing strategy.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a tall desk. Most are only two and a half feet tall. But I agree, a new Toshiba would've probably suffered damages exceeding the value of the machine.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Spokehedz]

ThinkPads have always been 'business class' machines. Or, what they really are, 'VP Class Machines' which means...

You can throw them in a bag (from being turned on all night working on a presentation) and then check them into your baggage, have the baggage claim people beat the snot out of them, you drag your computer on the ground with some actually luggable luggage and bash them into the back of a cab, up 14 flights of stairs banging it on each step on the way, then throw it down on the expensive mahogany table and open it up and...

The damn thing still works.

IBM doesn't make the most cutting edge stuff. They make the most cost-effective, durable, laptops out there. I don't care about that so-called 'rugged' PC from Toshiba. No VP is going to take that ugly pile to a conference. But an IBM with it's matte black exterior and classic looks, not to mention it matches their suit, they will pick over and over again.

I have used the new T61 laptops as well--and besides being as heavy as a brick--they are quite the little powerhouses. Ubuntu runs on them just dandy, all the hardware detected upon install.

Your Air? Yeah. It looks pretty, but I guarantee that thing will break within a day of giving it to a VP. It would maybe last 15 seconds going through ATL on the way to ORD through CLE. The design of the Air--to me--just screams cheap and flimsy. Pretty, but flimsy.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[MojoStan]

There is no such thing as a well built Toshiba. Are you sure that all Toshiba models (e.g. Portege, Tecra, Satellite) are shoddy? The GP specifically mentioned Apple's "Pro" notebook models (not non-pro MacBooks or iBooks), Lenovo's ThinkPads (not Lenovo's 3000 Family), and "well built" Toshibas. I assume Toshiba's made-in-Japan Tecra business notebooks are built better than their consumer-grade Satellites.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

What sort of laptop do you use to type (and hype) up your online resume? According to you, every organisation you've ever had an association with (and several you have not) has benefited enormously from its brief contact with you... According to you, you were born as a top computer scientist and before you had even left college you were single-handedly responsible for COUGAAR and other aspects of the national security and the space race. Do you think anyone believes you?

Let us know which laptop you use Mr Walter Mitty 007, so that the rest of us can avoid purchasing it..

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[slaker]

I put it up on a shelf that's on the desk itself so that I can see the screen while I'm sitting in front of it.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[slaker]

I support about two dozen Tecras, various models, for one of my contracting customers. How shoddy are they? Well, I can flick keys off the keyboards with my fingers, and if I take one into a darkened room, I can see light leaking out the sides of the LCD. That's not what I'd call quality.

For what it's worth Lenovo 3000s are fairly impressive for consumer notebooks. I wouldn't buy one, but they're solid and well-constructed. I'd put them ahead of any current Dell Vostro/Inspiron model or non-pro Macbook.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Skrynesaver]

In fairness I used to have a Toshiba Satellite M-series for about 3 years, great machine, went to the top of aerials, up on roofs in all weathers, excellent support for all components under Linux and survived living with 3 cats, 2 dogs and my whiskey intake.

Haven't used one since but that one was lovely, though I do grant previous posters complaints about trashy plastic cases ;)

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Oopsz]

Sigh! I had a satellite pro in the 90s that you could use to hammer nails. It was solid and indestructable. They don't make 'em like that anymore...

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Actually, I do RTFA]

But once you upgrade the Air to have a solid-state drive, the price difference seems to disappear (or be in the Thinkpad's favor, since the final price seems to be flexible.) And if you start adding in the peripherials (and multiple USB ports to run them) you get a DVD drive, changable battery, cellular modem and GPS over the Air (the last two making a world of difference, as the thread on the Air pointed out ad nauseum.) If I'm going to drop $2500 - $3000 on a laptop, I lean more towards the Thinkpad than the Air.

By the way, did anyone else note (which necessitates reading the article) that when comparing the two computers the article says "And, like the Air, it offers a fast, rugged solid-state drive instead of a hard disk." In other words, its a good feature that both have. But when differentiating them, the article says "The biggest downsides to the new ThinkPad X300 are price and limited storage capacity. Unlike the Apple, which can be ordered with a higher-capacity, lower-priced hard disk, the new ThinkPad will only be available with the expensive, limited capacity solid-state drive." That's a big jerk around. The Air line spans an over a thousand dollar range. It's hardly fair to compare one product to the best of all worlds combination of Air models. (Wow, a solid state drive, a large hard drive and a low price. Hard to beat combo.)

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Cal Paterson]

I never understand why laptop makers don't provide a breakaway cord, but despite this happening a number of times on my Thinkpads, I never had any problem like that.

Blame the Patent System.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the point.
Give the VPs something they would break and spares start floating around and trickling down to the IT department that much faster.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Mister Whirly]

"The Pro line of apple laptops has been about the same, too (that's what I use). I wouldn't dream of taking the sub-$1000 boxes around with me all day.

What? Apple makes a sub-$1000 laptop? I just checked their site and their macbooks start out at $1099. Where is this mythical sub-$1000 machine you speak of?

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[eclectic4]

Well, there you have it. If it "looks" flimsy on a web page image, then it must be so...

Seriously though, if you have ever actually handled one of these those fears disappear pretty quickly. I've configured two of them in the last week and they are surprisingly solid.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

ThinkPads are more affordable now. I remember I bought my T30 a few years ago for over $1400. And that was with the bare minimum specs. Now you can get a bare minimum spec T61 for a little over $1000. The X-series base price has dropped as well.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Psychopath]

IBM doesn't make the most cutting edge stuff. They don't make ThinkPad laptops anymore, either (you meant Lenovo, I think).

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Brendtron 5000]

Business class for sure. I'm currently doing a work term for IBM. Being a student, I didn't get a fancy new T61 like everybody else. I got an old T40, which belonged to somebody else on my team. This thing is at least 4 years old, and is still going amazingly strong. We dock and undock our machines all day long for meetings, throw them in bags, open and close them 10-15 times per day. Mine gets thrown in a backpack for an hour and half commute to and from work by subway and bus. It's regularly outside in sub-zero temperatures while I wait for buses, and complains far less than I do. The hinges are still stiff, the screen is still bright, every button and key works like the day it was new. And I know for a fact that the person who had this laptop before me didn't use an external keyboard or mouse -- this laptop has a large, deep groove in the left mouse button from the years of her thumb wearing it down. Compare this to the HP I bought a couple of years ago. Within a year the screen was dim and it was locking up. My computer help desk experience showed me all the weak points of a laptop. Screen brightness, floppy/broken hinges, broken DVD drives. None of that here. Before my time is up in this position I'm going to take IBM up on its deep discount for employees. I don't think I'll ever buy another brand.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

"But once you upgrade the Air to have a solid-state drive, the price difference seems to disappear..."

But isn't the age-old argument here on /.? I mean, every time someone says Macs are expensive compared to a rock bottom, bargain basement PC they can get it is always answered with, "not when you compare features". And yet the Mac basher doesn't care. It's only the initial price that matters.

"If I'm going to drop $2500 - $3000 on a laptop, I lean more towards the Thinkpad than the Air."

Screw that when you can get a MacBook Pro for that price.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Monsuco]

Well, even if the thinkpad is durable, your average business customer wants something that is reliable, they aren't really interested in extreme thinness. Most prefer a classy appearance to a trendy and beautiful one.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Lally Singh]

Sorry for the implication. I meant the crap @ Dell, HP, etc.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

people who value their things usually take better care of their things

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Yalius]

I just don't get how Apple patented magnetic power cords. My deep fryer has a magnetic easy-release power cord and I've had that since about 1997.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI I hear that's on the QT, OK?

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

Never mind Dell and HP.. it's your made-up CV that merits the adjective 'crap'.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[tilandal]

I have to agree here. When I was in college I earned some extra cash working in a salvage shop. We would buy up old equipment from the colleges in the area, refurbish it and resell it. What we couldn't get working we broke down and parted out. One of the biggest revenue streams was laptops. Most laptops we got didn't work but you could salvage the hard drive, screen, power supply etc. and sell them for good money. There were always a long line of nearly new Power books and iBooks to work on. These things were falling apart. They had cracked screens, broken hinges, busted cases or just didn't work. On the other hand the think pads we got were all 8+years old. Most of them actually worked but they were so old that they had been replaced. I actually saw a few of the old units with the butterfly keyboard.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Lost Engineer]

I got a T60 right before Vista came out (fire sale to make room for Vista laptops, despite the fact that the ones in the shop were perfectly Vista capable (aero and all that works)). $1300 bucks + $70 for 2GB RAM when I finally installed Vista. I guess it's bare bones but IMO it's got one more core in the processor than you actually need on a portable.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[dave562]

I agree with you on the Toshibas. I still have my Satellite Pro 4200 with the P3 running Win2K. It runs like a champ. All of the newer Toshibas that I've seen just aren't the same.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[dave562]

A week or two ago Buy.com was blowing out T41 Thinkpads for $400. If my focus wasn't currently on completely eliminating all of my debt, I would have scooped one up simply because it was such a great deal.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

"through ATL on the way to ORD through CLE"

Bob & Tom reference?

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[pebs]

You can throw them in a bag (from being turned on all night working on a presentation) and then check them into your baggage, have the baggage claim people beat the snot out of them, you drag your computer on the ground with some actually luggable luggage and bash them into the back of a cab, up 14 flights of stairs banging it on each step on the way, then throw it down on the expensive mahogany table and open it up and...

I have to agree from my experience. I bought a used Thinkpad T23. It had looked like it had been pretty well-used when I bought it. Since then its been through all kinds abuse and has been with me through all kinds of traveling. I've dropped it many times, even had it fall flat on its face and still survived (a few dents on the edges of the keyboard that had to bend back into shape, but it never stopped working).

I like that it isn't flashy and fancy looking, which reduces its attractiveness to thieves. I like the fact that it looks dull and boring, especially on the exterior (mine is completely scratched up).

My next notebook will be either a used Thinkpad X-series or a MacBook Pro. Two different types of notebooks I know. If I'm going to get a Mac, I'd want one that can run Final Cut, Logic and other audio/video apps otherwise it would be a waste of an OS X capable machine (I currently use a Mac Pro for these purposes, but it would nice to have essentially a portable workstation). Otherwise, I'd want an ultraportable to use on the go that would replace my T23. The MacBook Air just isn't the machine I'd want to buy for those purposes, at least not at the price its at and considering that I could get a used machine at considerably less that would serve the same purpose.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[pebs]

And they probably will continue to be.

There is a lot of used/refurbished Thinkpads on the market at very reasonable prices. This is not so for Apple's computers depreciate much more slowly.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Aehgts]

I have a 12.1" Toshiba Portege 3500 Tablet which has so far survived being manhandled around 4 years of Uni (Elec Eng) the only damage being:

• The tiny plastic cover in front of the IR ports broke
• The chrome's rubbed off the touch pad and buttons
• The pen only works intermittently on some strips of the screen
• The battery life is down to about an hour and a half
• Replaced the keyboard when it was killed by a glass of apple juice

Awesome laptop. Well built Toshiba.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Thumper_SVX]

Well, I would say Toshiba DID produce good machines about 9 years ago. I had one; a Portege 3490CT which I only stopped using because running even a pared down Linux install was getting kind of sad. I used that machine up until I bought my Macbook Pro two years ago and loved it to death. Wish I hadn't sold it now, actually.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

Although i don't doubt that IBM are capable of making durable laptops I would say that Apple has had their share of good designs for durability and they didn't all look like brick shit houses either.

where i work we had one of the old powerbook g4's fall down a set of stairs, and a MacBook dropped in the street and one of the old iBooks have someone fall on it (weird story, don't ask!) and not one of them stopped working. a little scuffed, and brought to me to be checked but as far as i know they still work even now. i'm not saying the Air is the same, although i hear it feels well made even if it doesn't look it, but its not like Apple has never accomplished this before.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[WuphonsReach]

Depends on which Tecra. The tablet models probably won't fare as well as the traditional Tecra 8000 / 8100 / 9100 series did.

The average age for our Tecras is around 4-5 years and they're still in use as primary machines. I used mine for 5 years (an old P4 1.7GHz with 1GB RAM). It worked, it survived many trips, had the keyboard, mouse buttons and backlight replaced and went through two hard drives.

But it was definitely getting close to the end of its lifespan after year four.

I've been using a widescreen Thinkpad T61 for about 6 months now. And my opinion is that even the Toshiba Tecras can't compete with it for sheer sturdiness. This thing feels much more solid.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[hotfireball]

Your Air? Yeah. It looks pretty, but I guarantee that thing will break within a day of giving it to a VP. It would maybe last 15 seconds going through ATL on the way to ORD through CLE. The design of the Air--to me--just screams cheap and flimsy. Pretty, but flimsy.

Yeah-yeah... I heard this exactly to MacBooks right after they appeared. In fact, they do works very well, do not breaks, looks nice and pretty. I own one that black with extra memory added, and really-really happy with that. I do Java programming on it, run Tomcat on it, doing some Unix SA and playing with something very different: mixing music with Cubase AI4. And flaming-trolling to Slashdot sometimes... :-P

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Wolvey]

I've owned a Thinkpad T42 for several years and recently bought a Lenovo Z61 for my girlfriend. So far the Lenovo feels very solid and sturdy, perhaps even more than my Thinkpad. I'm very impressed with it.

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

your laptop is NOT fine
no laptop hard drive can survive that drop
go back up your data and buy a new drive before this one goes ... and it WILL go soon

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Provocateur]

Maybe the clause they inserted "to run a computer" helped make the design unique enough to be granted a patent. You could proclaim 'Prior art' if your deep fryer ran Linux though...

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[wikinerd]

they fill them with tons of bloatware

How about downloading debian.exe and getting rid of all of it?

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

> There's a ding on the floor. My Thinkpad is fine.

Yeah but what about the cat?

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[v1980z]

-1 Writing skills. The last remark would sound more impressive if there was no ding on the floor

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Atzanteol]

The biggest problem with Lenovo since IBM is they've added a "Windows" key to the keyboard.
First thing I pry off....

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM does not make laptops anymore. They sold their business to a company named Lenovo. I work in tech support. ThinkPads do, in fact, fail. Our operation uses mostly Dells, but more than a few ThinkPads have crossed our path. Personal experience is generally anecdotal. Still, about half of ThinkPads I have seen fail within the first 3 years of use. Makes me wonder, after reading your comment, if people think they can actually throw around their laptops without consequence?

Re:ThinkPads have always been expsensive

[vuffi_raa]

I've only had toshibas, one felt from my hands while I was writing on the hard drive, bounce on the floor and kept working for 2 more years with no problem (of course 3 years for a computer that was totally abused, I think is great). My current laptop is a Toshiba, and I'll keep buying them. I, like you used to be a big toshiba fan (had a satellite 1, a tecra 550 which was actually run over by a motorcycle and still worked, a satellite s207, which is still functional after a lot of use and bumping around- but too big for me to lug around now), but my current laptop is a lenovo mainly because when I needed a new laptop it was the only one that I could find with good specs (core2 duo centrino 1.8 w 2gigs of ram) and came with xp pro, drivers for every piece of hardware on it for a base xp installation- and the clincher- since it was missed in the mass recall to retailers of xp systems I got it for $480. I do have to admit that for the model I have one thing that I REALLY do like is the fact that the RAM and the HD are easily changeable on the lenovo since there are literally 2 doors on the bottom of it that actually say "HD" and "mem" so if I need to upgrade (SSD maybe?) I don't have to go through some long involved process of unscrewing a million screws and/or removing the keyboard just to get at the HD.
I have to admit- I do like toshibas still, to this day, but for now I am a lenovo guy- it has been treating me quite well.

Mossberg has seen it...

[wild_berry]

Walt's seen the thing -- but not tested it. The biggest let down with the MacBook Air was its battery life (and then Remote Disk). Does this ThinkPad have decent battery life? And is it as sturdy as we expect Thinkpads to be?

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[owlman17]

Speaking of sturdy, are the Lenovo Thinkpads sturdy as their IBM counterparts? We owned a couple of IBM Thinkpads in the mid 90s and I'm planning to get a new one now. So far I only have anecdotal evidence that goes both ways.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Renegade Lisp]

I think only a Slashdot Poll could answer this definitely.

Further anecdotal evidence, though: I've had a Lenovo T61 now for about two months, after having had a Pre-Lenovo T40 for more than four years, which had been my sturdiest Thinkpad up to that time. So far, I see no difference in the build quality of both machines, but only time will really tell.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[The Second Horseman]

It should be. Other recent Lenovo Thinkpads or tablets have been fine. We've bought a bunch. And don't forget the Thinkpad has an easily-replaceable battery, and there's an option to put a second battery in the unit, in place of the optical drive, I think (that might've changed - I saw the details in a briefing last November / December).

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Carewolf]

More or less. And the new R61 series are now also built as sturdy as the T models, only difference being size and weight (you pay 50% extra for a T-model which is a ½kg lighter and 0.5cm thinner).

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[2ms]

What are you talking about? The battery life of the Macbook Air is amazingly good -- comparable to the current Macbook Pros and drastically better than the last version of Macbook Pro (Core Duo).

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Frantix]

I've been completely happy with my company issued T61. I'm not excessively hard on laptops but they get banged around and used a lot at home. Overall I think they're very nice laptops. My previous T42 was equally durable. To be honest, I never thought I'd sing praises of an IBM product but after being away from them many years I wish I would have picked one of them up instead of the HP that I bought.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[darthflo]

Mostly. I seem to recall my T41 being a bit more sturdy than the T60 (which is still better than the X21). Also, the X61t's build quality is awesome with a few flaws; after some high drops onto stone floor the battery's bent a bit and the display hinge cut a few millimeters into the palm rest. Apart from the display not properly "clicking" to locked anymore, it works like a charm.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[wild_berry]

That's one citation. Ars Technica notes that the common experience is around half of the predicted five hours.

Speaking to others about the battery life of the Air, my averages turned out to be, well, pretty average. Based on actual use, users I spoke to were getting between 2:00 and 2:45 depending on screen brightness and levels of disk activity. (from: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/macbook-air-ssd-review.ars/2

and

I usually keep the screen brightness on the lowest setting out of personal preference, and all I ever do on my laptop (these days) is write and surf--sometimes with some music, and the bit of occasional graphic editing. Those aren't exactly energy-intensive uses, and I can pretty regularly squeeze a good 3:45 to four hours out of a brand new MacBook or MacBook Pro battery. I'll cut to the chase here: the MacBook Air's battery life sucks. A lot. I found it to be a pretty big disappointment, holding it to my admittedly-high standards. I ran down the battery from full charge four times and came out with an average of two hours and 33 minutes. (from http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/macbook-air-review.ars/4)

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Trashman]

I have used pre-lenovo T-20, T23, T-30, and T-40 notebooks. I own a Lenovo T43p and a T60p. up until the T60p, I've seen no change in build quality.

For me, The Keyboard is what makes or breaks a laptop for me. All of the T-series laptops I've used have all had superb Keyboards. Now my gripe is that the current Lenovo models aren't made w/ 4:3 aspect ratio screens (to get the size of the notebook down,) but that's a topic for another thread. :-) /siting here typing this on a crappy HP/compaq nc6400 provided by my current employer.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Llywelyn]

The numbers have been all over the map depending on what is referred to as "common usage." The only standardized test run so far (Ars Technica's wasn't) showed that for web browsing and listening to music at 50% brightness, it gave 4.5 hours. Numbers went down from there depending on exactly what they were doing with it. Andandtech's recent run showed 5 hours on that aforementioned test if you used the SSD instead of the HDD.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Cal Paterson]

Empirical evidence probably isn't needed - if Lenovo have changed anything significant, I'd be interested to know. Even the 1990-era coloured IBM logo is still on the front.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[wild_berry]

I'm citing the anecdotal experience of a chunk of people who are doing what they would normally do (if you wish to quibble 'common usage') with their AirBook and finding that the 5-hour claim is a ridiculous over-estimate.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[rbanffy]

I find this battery thing interesting. While I know a few people who uses more than one battery (mostly bigger, optional ones), I have never replaced a battery.

By the time they die, the gadget they powered is so obsolete I prefer to retire the old one and replace it with another. I have been through countless cell phones and laptops this way.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Sir_Lewk]

I dropped my T60p sideways 3 feet onto a solid steel manhole cover. The case was chipped, 'nuff said.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[rossifer]

I just bought a Lenovo T61p to replace my beloved IBM R50p (along with a T61 for my wife) and I had the exact same fear. Fear not. If anything, the design of the new ThinkPads is even better than the IBMs of yore. The build quality is equivalent. The keyboard is fan-f'ing-tastic. The screens are good, but the UXGA screen on my R50p has a better vertical viewing angle and is brighter than the WUXGA on the new machine. The older UXGA screen is also a little better than the WSXGA+ screen on my wife's T61.

As a counterpoint, a friend decided to save a few bucks and bought a Lenovo 3000 instead of a ThinkPad. As might be expected, you get what you pay for. The 3000 series models do not seem to be at the same quality level as the ThinkPads.

Final bit of advice, if you want the 1920x1200 screen, save yourself the money on the T61p and just upgrade the 15" T61 to WUXGA. It's still got plenty of horsepower to drive the screen and you'll save about $200 with the cheaper (but still NVidia) graphics.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[|Cozmo|]

I have a T40 series at home as well as a T60 I bought just before the T61 came out. The new machine feels rock solid. They fixed the one issue I had with the older one, and that is the power cable connector getting loose from lots of use and pressure. The new one uses a much bigger power connector that doesn't seem like it will wear out like the old one did.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[anethema]

Werent they always made by Lenovo even when it was the IBM brand name?

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[dave562]

In this case you're comparing Apples to Apples and strangely enough that isn't applicable. How does the Apple compare to the Thinkpad?

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[Llywelyn]

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

What we need are standardized tests that approximate real world usage--otherwise its just going to be anecdotal evidence. For the SSD drive: Using wifi to browse 20 pages in a loop, spending twenty seconds for each page, while playing mp3s in iTunes while at 50% brightness gave 4 hours and 59 minutes.

Playing a DVD image off of the internal drive in a loop it gave nearly 3 hours and 56 minutes.

Downloading a 10 GB file, playing two 480p XviD videos in a loop, plus the web browsing test from #1 came in at 2 hours and 42 minutes.

Now, which approximates the best "real world usage" scenario for those situations when you are not near a plug for the length of time that this actually matters?

Now, I admit, my normal behavior might look closer to (3)--perhaps with something compiling in the background--but that is exceedingly unlikely behavior if I am, say, sitting in an airport or flying on a plane. My current work laptop gets substantially worse battery life than that when I am working, and still I rarely find its lack of capacity annoying or limiting. I simply don't use it the same way in an airport lobby or on an airplane that I do while working.

Re:Mossberg has seen it...

[kikta]

I have an IBM X40 purchased about a year or so before the Lenovo split (which means they were already making it).

It is the most durable laptop I have ever owned or used short of a Toughbook. Which is great for use in the field, but way too heavy & impractical everywhere else.

Did I mention it weighs in under three pounds? Highly recommended.

I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[FatSean]

In a few years, when we look back at the Apple designs which have become tacky and dated, the Thinkpad still looks elegant and clean.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Calinous]

Like every old Apple design which is now tacky and dated...

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Kickersny.com]

Case in point.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[afidel]

Most are, the Mac Classic, the CRT imac, etc. In fact looking back the only Apple products that stick out to me as big design wins are the G5 tower, the cube, the lcd imac, and the ipod. Not that IBM/Lenovo is going to win any artistic design awards but they are great functional designs that last forever, kind of like a good pickup truck.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[techpawn]

I loved the idea handle on the iMac!

Gave you a good position to throw the thing from when you realized there was no floppy drive...

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[darjen]

Now those designs are truly ugly. Actually, I thought they were back when they came out too.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Brian Gordon]

Well I think thinkpads look sleek now, and even the ancient 3-inch-think thinkpads, which have identical styling look great too. They're solid, performance, business laptops, not balance-on-your-knee make-a-home-video mac commercial laptops.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[jacoby]

I haven't used a floppy since well before the advent of the iMac.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[darjen]

I am a complete Thinkpad convert after using them for work exclusively for a year and a half. I used to think Thinkpad's design was ugly myself, but they really grew on me. My personal Asus notebook has pretty glossy coating which is very worn now, and looks like crap. The Thinkpads look much less worn after years of use.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting on Slashdot in the middle of the day (UK). I've never used mine.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[dekemoose]

Oh for mod points! Nothing is more beautiful in my eyes than a machine which does it's job well day after day. It's simple, it's rugged, it's the best laptop series that was ever produced. This all goes for the IBM ThinkPad line as I have not had an actual Lenovo machine yet, hopefully they haven't mucked it up.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Carewolf]

Like every old Apple design which is now tacky and dated...

Yes, exactly like those.

Did you have a point?

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[teh kurisu]

the lcd imac

The iMac G4 'sunflower' model? I really liked that design. Not so much the G5 and onwards iMacs (although the latest black and aluminium ones don't look quite so bad.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Mr.Dippy]

You still use floppy discs? I'm jealous. All of my files that I need to transport are well over 1.44 MB. It must be nice not having to deal with large files.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Otter]

They're solid, performance, business laptops, not balance-on-your-knee make-a-home-video mac commercial laptops.

Maybe your business doesn't involve travel, but balance-on-your-knee usability is precisely what many of us demand of a business laptop. And, even more so, balance-on-your-coach-section-tray-table usability, where Macs particularly shine over the space-inefficient lid hinges on Thinkpads. (At least the older Thinkpads I've worked with. I have no idea about this model.)

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Brian Gordon]

I always loved the way thinkpads look. The sliver-painted plastic look on most other laptops is just painful on the eyes, and glossy screens are good for absolutely nothing except more glare. Thinkpad is where it's at

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Calinous]

Yes, I find the CRT-monitor iMacs looking nice. The round mouse is horrible (iMac mouse).
      I found the Mac laptop nice (certainly, for a woman or child's computer).

It's the very old designs I don't favour - the Mac Classic II, Color Classic

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[techpawn]

You still use floppy discs?

At the time of the iMac floppies where still going strong, and if I remember right the optical wasn't a burner either (at least on the base model). So, you really couldn't take data OFF it in a removable/rewriteable format.

FDISK and small utilities I still use floppies for because I'll have booted the machine with a boot/run Linux CD like InsertLinux, but there are some utilities that my disk doesn't have. Anything else I need for moving data it's generally flash memory sticks FTW unless it's across a network...

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Brian Gordon]

Space-inefficient hinges? The T60 at least just has 2 small metal hinges entirely inset within the width of the lid.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[SuperStretchy]

You're leaving out the "-that-no-one-cares-to-watch" on the end of the "make-a-home-video"

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[lemon_dieter]

IBM designs and specifies everything that goes into the Thinkpads. Lenovo only manufactures them. I have an IBM T40 which doesn't see much use any longer as I have replaced it with a Lenovo branded T61p. The T61p is miles ahead of many laptops on the market today, as was the T40. I did happen to switch the old T40 on the other day to do some searching for a file that I stupidly did not back up onto my usb hard drive. I am still amazed that the laptop had still been on it's original format, never had XP reinstalled, never had any problems at all with the IBM maintenance software. It will probably continue to be supported by that maintenance software for another decade. IBM is serious about their brand-name on manufactured goods. They want the quality to be unsurpassed, and they have done a fine job of it since day one of their operations in this market. Lenovo does manufacture their own line of laptops, which I am unsure of the design, but am pretty confident that the build quality is solid.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Wovel]

Yes it is definitely better to have no deisgn at all than have a design that will look dated 10 years after it's useful life....

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[MightyYar]

Ha! Those were ugly, though the iMacs are still shiny and cool. :)

Apple's stuff holds up much better, though. Take a look at what they were doing in 1991! How many other makes 1991 model could you take to a coffee shop today without too many stares? Now walk in with this bad boy! And that's 2 years younger! :)

But more to the point, who still uses a computer from 1998-99? 6 years is about the max I've ever been able to pull off.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Otter]

If that's the same as the hinges on the T30 and T40 -- yes, they're space inefficient. They may be slightly smaller when closed but the recessed hinges push the opened lid a half-inch or so backwards. When the fat guy in the row ahead of me keeps entertaining himself by free-falling and driving the seat back, tray and laptop into my liver, that's not a tradeoff I'm happy with.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[afidel]

Yep that's the one I was thinking of.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Brian Gordon]

Nope, they're inset within the lid and go directly down into the back of the laptop. They don't stick out the back or anything- the whole back of the lid and back of the laptop is a flush surface.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is kinda funny, I was cleaning out my closet last weekend and found all sorts of old dos games on floppies. I decided to play some of them, stuck a floppy in my drive and got a virus warning. I had the valentine's day boot sector virus! Interesting timing.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[dal20402]

The MBA (and MBP) aren't silver-painted plastic (except for the touchpad), they're anodized aluminum. I'd rather have a natural metal finish than yet more black plastic, although ThinkPads are about as nice as non-Apple laptops get.

Largely agree with you on the glossy screens, though.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[misleb]

Gave you a good position to throw the thing from when you realized there was no floppy drive...

I admire Apple for pushing such horrible technologies as teh floppy drive into extinction (at least on Mac. You can still find them on PCs even today). Besides, if you really needed a floppy drive you could always get a USB version.

-matthew

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[mollymoo]

IBM designs and specifies everything that goes into the Thinkpads. Lenovo only manufactures them.

Not any more. Lenovo bought IBM's laptop business, oooh, ages ago now.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Anonymous Coward]

In a few years no one will want to use a computer bought now anyway.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[rbanffy]

Granpa... What is a floppy disk?

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using my trusty, then-top-of-the-line A20p for about seven or eight years now. As software has gotten more and more bloated, it's gotten slower and slower. We all know Firefox will end up taking hundreds of megs of RAM after a day or two of use, and I've only got 256 available. So I finally took the plunge and bought a new T61, which will be in my hands this evening. I doubt I'll get seven years out of this new machine, but I hope it's the same kind of reliable workhorse I'm used to.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[anexkahn]

The other difference between the two is that the apple with the SSD is over $3k....this is actually cheaper for what you get.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[techpawn]

Granpa... What is a floppy disk?

Eh? What was that Billy? Oh! That was a problem I use to have till I got this Email about \/14gra... Now, go play... AND GET OFF MY LAWN!

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Anonymous Coward]

You stuck your floppy in a drive without protection and you got a virus.

Man! Do I know THAT feeling... GIGGITY GIGGITY!

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[__aapspi39]

When the iMac was released i can remember my neighbor saying that he'd bought his daughter one to stop her from taking up loads of time on his computer.

Turns out that once she'd gotten over the novelty of the machine, they soon realised she still had to use his machine for word processing - she simply couldn't put her essays etc onto a disk and take them into school with her, because of this missing floppy drive.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[syphax]

The issue is that the pivot point on Mac laptops tends to be lower, so your screen is a little less likely to get crunched by the dude slamming his seat back onto you.

Older Thinkpads had plastic hinges that did not withstand abuse very well. The metal hinges introduced around the T40 or so fare much better.

My house has an Intel Mac Mini (hiding behind the HD-TV), and old 12" G4 Powerbook, a T43 running Ubuntu (old work machine), and a T60p with XP for work. I love them all. Using Synergy I can hook them up into a 4-monitor virtual machine, which is actually useful from time to time.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[labalicious]

They haven't. I have a Lenovo T61. It looks similar to my old T41 IBM. The difference is that it has a smaller footprint, wider screen and it's a lot faster (Core 2 Duo, 2 GB ram vs Pentium M, 512MB).

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[rubah]

Yeah but Toshiba satellites had plastic casing that still looks exactly like it did, so you don't need metal to have something that will look the same in six years!

(you just need metal to avoid the cracks and holes in the casing that such satellites seem to have developed in that period of time ;D but the finish and the texture is still the same!!!)
I would suffix this with a picture of my mother's satellite, but sadly my brother snatched it away when she got her new one

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[xSauronx]

QFT. Im a T40 owner and have been surprised at how many complaints ive seen from users with other laptops bitching about the hinges on the lid. These are, after years, still damn sturdy.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[hacker]

Riddle me this... I have a 15" T42p (1600x1200 resolution) which has been used no less than 20+ hours/day for the last 3-4 years, solidly. I'm still typing on it right now as I compose this.

I've been eyeing the T61p as a replacement to my T42p, with all of the goodies (WUXGA screen, bluetooth, WWAN, etc.). When you say it has a "smaller footprint", what do you mean?

When I worked for IBM, my "work machine" was a T60, and it was an acceptable machine, but seemed somewhat lacking when compared against my T42p (size, power, screen, etc.) for what I expected from it.

I'd love to hear your comments (either here, or direct email, whichever works for you). Thanks!

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Anonymous Coward]

i think the point is that macs look tacky and lame after just a year or two of being around. not just the imac but also their recent stuff like the 'ugly big cheese grater' look they seem so keen on.

the way their products date so quickly is, imho, another example of how good they are at extracting cash from their luckless adherents. no one would deny that apple are very very good at this sort of thing. a bit greedy perhaps, but they are running a business.

if you want an airbook then you need to carry around a bunch of dongles so that you can get stuff like RJ45 cables hooked up. I mean, wtf!!!
read this as apples forward thinking in action, but i bet you can't tell this to someone with a straight face.

never mind the fact that its battery can't be swapped without carrying a small toolkit around with you!!! great!

if you want an ultra portable but fully featured machine, then the mac air just is not a serious option. something like this new thinkpad might hit the spot tho.

like a lot of apple kit, the air looks great on the surface, but for one reason or another it can only be considered an expensive toy, or if you like the look of their plastic tat, a fine piece of jewellery.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[billius]

Just seeing the picture of the iMac mouse made my hand cramp up. Thanks a lot, now what will I do while watching my Valentine's pr0n in the basement!?!?

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Achromatic1978]

Shh, you'll ruin a Mossberg hatchet job! You're not supposed to notice he compares the price of the hard-drive Air to the SSD Thinkpad. You're not supposed to notice the SSD Air is more expensive than the SSD Thinkpad. You're not supposed to notice the "paltry 64GB of storage" on the SSD Thinkpad is the same "paltry 64GB of storage" on the SSD Air. You're not supposed to notice that an 80GB HDD on a laptop as your "big storage" option is also pretty paltry, especially when it's a 4200 RPM PATA drive (yes, I realize there are benefits to that, but not as far as Mossberg mentions in his hatchet job).

Shhh... everyone will know. We can't have that!

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[casualsax3]

You just might - I have a T60 that I picked up about a year and a half ago and it looks as new as the day I pulled it out of the box. I've upgraded the RAM and gave it a 7,200 RPM drive, but other than that it's been nothing short of magnificent. I've owned a few earlier models (T20 in college, T40 after that) and I have to say that the T60 (technically now by Lenovo) has by far held up the best out of all of them.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[MightyYar]

i think the point is that macs look tacky and lame after just a year or two of being around. not just the imac but also their recent stuff like the 'ugly big cheese grater' look they seem so keen on. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I happen to like the cheese grater look - I've had it for three years and it hasn't gotten old for me. I think it looks way better than the "from outer space" gaming rigs that many of my friends favor. But really, it's just a taste thing - everyone is different. Some like their bagel toasted, some like it untoasted.

the way their products date so quickly is, imho, another example of how good they are at extracting cash from their luckless adherents. no one would deny that apple are very very good at this sort of thing. a bit greedy perhaps, but they are running a business. I don't know if people who can afford Apple's stuff are "luckless" :) I keep giving them money because I like their stuff better than most of the alternatives, not because they force my hand. I hope they keep it up (though my wife is a PC person, and so she gets PC stuff).

if you want an airbook then you need to carry around a bunch of dongles so that you can get stuff like RJ45 cables hooked up. I mean, wtf!!! When I carry my iBook around, I rarely even bring the charger - so no, I don't think I'd be hauling any dongles. If I went on a business trip I'd probably pack the dongles, but it's not like you need them on the plane. I strongly suspect that you are not the target demographic.

never mind the fact that its battery can't be swapped without carrying a small toolkit around with you!!! great! I've never had a laptop with more than one battery - but then I always buy a laptop with long battery life... again, I suspect that you are not the target demographic here.

if you want an ultra portable but fully featured machine, then the mac air just is not a serious option. something like this new thinkpad might hit the spot tho. Maybe. My friend wanted a "desktop replacement" that was also small so I recommended the x60s with extended battery, and he's quite happy. For people with only one computer, the Thinkpad is indeed a better option. If the laptop is your secondary machine, all the connectivity becomes less important.

like a lot of apple kit, the air looks great on the surface, but for one reason or another it can only be considered an expensive toy, or if you like the look of their plastic tat, a fine piece of jewellery. Meh, you don't have me convinced. I'm not in the market right now, but it looks pretty useful as a second machine.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Lost Engineer]

Not only that but because of the trackpoint you can actually keep your hand in the middle of the keyboard when not typing. Try getting your arm back to the touchpad on a small plane and you'll see what I mean.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Sancho]

Or they could have used a USB floppy drive. Honestly, this sounds like a made up story.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Garridan]

So, you really couldn't take data OFF it... My memory is hazy... but I seem to recall these things called "interwebs" that were wildly popular back then -- do know if those are still around?

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[techpawn]

couldn't take data OFF it in a removable/rewriteable format.

I don't mind being quoted, but, you only used part of it. Yes you could have used remote file hosting of some kind... Seriously though, they where marketing this as a plug in and work box though. So the college demographic, who would most likely take their reports on a disk, would be the ones boned when they needed to take a report to print.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Sancho]

I'll add one bitch.

Every Dell laptop I've ever gotten--4 personal ones now, and some I've used at work--has gotten loose hinges. It's not that they break (always--sometimes they do), it's that they'll get about an inch of give at the top of the LCD. That is, you can wiggle the laptop, and the top of the LCD will move freely by about an inch.

I have a feeling that it's at least partially the weight of the things. I usually only buy dense 15" screens (dense being 1920x1200 resolution) which are apparently heavier.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Amiga Trombone]

Now those designs are truly ugly. Actually, I thought they were back when they came out too.

Yeah, when they first came out, they were affectionately known as the "toilet-seat Mac". But they're actually quite sturdy machines. I just refurbed one for a friend. Put in a 100GB drive and 512M of RAM, and it runs Tiger quite nicely. Not the latest and greatest, of course, but he only wants to run MS office, email and iTunes on it. He'll still get quite a few good years out of it....

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Garridan]

I don't mind being quoted Good, I'm glad that we agree.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Nothing is more beautiful in my eyes than a machine which does it's job well day after day. It's simple, it's[Thinkpad] rugged, it's the best laptop series that was ever produced.

Actually, according to Consumer Reports, Thinkpad machines have a higher failure rate than Macbooks. In fact, for the second half of 2006, Dell's laptops had a lower failure rate than Thinkpads (crazy how things change huh, Dell's desktops are still below average though). So if you're looking for "rugged" as a criteria the Thinkpad is not the winner. That said, Thinkpads are nice systems. As far as comparing compact super-thin systems... well I don't really care. In fact, I think the emphasis on thin is aiming at a demographic, but I really wish Apple and Lenovo would go after the opposite category too... thicker, cheaper, more fully featured laptops. I have no interest in an ultra-portable, but I'd love a dependable laptop with an extra large battery capacity and a desktop graphics card, even if it weighed twice as much and was twice the thickness.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Hucko]

Yeah? The only tacky and dated thing about those designs is the material in the case. Now if I could just get a glass blower to recreate the cases....

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[__aapspi39]

You are right about me not being the target demographic here, i have worked on apple computers enough to realize that they're definitely not for me - my main objective is to get my work done as quickly as possible, regardless of how pretty the interface or actual computer is.

also, i have never found a need to express myself or my lifestyle with a consumer purchase; to be honest i find that kind of thing a bit difficult to understand. it does take allsorts i suppose.

as far as ultramobile laptops are concerned, i'm definitely an advocate. the main reasons i have a fujitsu lifebook s series is that they're fast, stable and light. another factor is that they are put together very well (like an expensive camera.)

my work as a flex developer requires a fairly powerful machine, but i have to take it to japan (from europe) three or four times a year, so a 4kg dell would go down like the proverbial french kiss at a family reunion.

also, i most certainly do not want lots of attachments hanging round that need to be connected if i'm to burn a cd, connect to a wired network etc. i'd have thought that anyone who is moving around with their computer (the target demographic) would appreciate this.

you could argue that there are those that might like the experience of carrying around, plugging-in and then unplugging various widgets; again it takes allsorts.

i would have to wonder though, exactly what kind of target demographic wouldn't want to have the choice of being able to carry an extra battery with them, or know that when it needs to be replaced they'd be able to just buy one and put it into the machine without needing to carry out surgery on it?

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[thetheorist]

I've been running a laptop repair service around the Univ. of Kansas for the last three years and sell laptop parts online. As far as Thinkpad's attractiveness goes, it only increases as you start to tear them down. I see a lot of wasted space or silly design decisions in the internals of a lot of laptops, whereas the insides of Thinkpads tend to be designed for efficiency and stableness. So many persistent flaws in notebooks have simple solutions. Take Toshiba's broken DC jacks. They soldered the jack onto the motherboard and provide little support for it. Thinkpads seperate the jack off the motherboard and provide support. Toshiba's jacks break a lot, Thinkpad's don't. Or at least they didn't. I tend to only see models that are out of warranty. Still, even when an IBM does break, it's a simple screwdriver repair rather than having to solder directly to your motherboard.

I'm least familiar with a lot of Mac models, but I would love to get a look at the innards of an Air just to see how it compares.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[Hucko]

Fisher Price are still going strong in Australia. Who is this Apple you mention? I'd love to replace my Fisher Price laptop. They are just a toy.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[mdwh2]

I admire Apple for pushing such horrible technologies as teh floppy drive into extinction (at least on Mac.

Then I hope you admire the Amiga CDTV even more. It dropped the floppy years before Apple even thought of it. I dunno why people give the Imac the credit.

Besides, if you really needed a floppy drive you could always get a USB version.

This makes no sense. The Imac was great at forcing people off the floppy, but at the same time, people could still pay out extra and get a floppy? Which is it?

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[mdwh2]

Greetings from the year 1998! I am a time traveller from the time when the imac was first introduced. This was at a time known as in your past, and technology wasn't the same as it is now. People commonly used to use these old fashioned things known as floppy disks, especially as the computer had no things like CD writers (let alone DVD writers) to save things on.

Let me introduce you to the concept of time. Things that as they were in my time, may not be as they are in your time.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[mdwh2]

Spot on. God knows why you got modded off-topic ... if this is off-topic, it's the parent post that should be modded down.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[mdwh2]

Granpa... What is an imac?

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[toddestan]

Besides, if you really needed a floppy drive you could always get a USB version.

I never remembered seeing anything other than 1.44MB "PC" USB floppy disk drives, which meant that there was no way to read Mac floppies on your iMac without using another Mac as a go-between.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[torkus]

But that doesn't tell the whole story. I'd say IBM sells a greater % of it's laptops to companies than say...HP or Toshiba. If a business owns computer equipment they're much more like to get warranty service since the IT department is there to help and also business users are MUCH more careless with their laptops. They didn't cough up 2 grand so they toss them around far more than joe college student.

Hell, I had a secretary fedex a laptop to one of my techs ones in one of those UNPADDED plasti-paper envelopes. The last time a friend send a laptop for me to look at he used 2 boxes of bubble wrap.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[dgbrownnt]

Actually, the old Apple designs still look pretty cool.

This ThinkPad, however, fails to bring sexy back. Too bad.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[MightyYar]

i would have to wonder though, exactly what kind of target demographic wouldn't want to have the choice of being able to carry an extra battery with them, or know that when it needs to be replaced they'd be able to just buy one and put it into the machine without needing to carry out surgery on it? Well, I wrote in my last post that I have never removed the battery from my iBook. I've burned a total of I think 3 CDs on it in over 2 years. I've plugged it into a wired ethernet connection once or twice - at home to debug my router.

So whatdaya know? I might just be a candidate for this thing.

But it would be my secondary computer - like a Palm Pilot. I wouldn't be able to use it as my primary computer. The single USB and lack of Firewire and ethernet port would disqualify it immediately.

Pretty isn't my main consideration for a laptop, but I certainly won't complain if it is pretty.

By the way, I agree with you - the Fujitsu is a nice little machine. But it's battery life is pathetic unless you get the heavier battery and it is nearly a pound heavier than the Air already - so it's not really in the same ballpark. I like the Lenovo x60s a lot, too. And it has a dock available, unlike the Apple. Slap the extended battery on there and you have a really nice machine, though one that's much larger physically than the Air. Small enough for me, though.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[misleb]

Then I hope you admire the Amiga CDTV even more. It dropped the floppy years before Apple even thought of it. I dunno why people give the Imac the credit.

Except that the CDTV wasn't meant to be a general purpose computer and lacked a lot more than just a floppy drive.

This makes no sense. The Imac was great at forcing people off the floppy, but at the same time, people could still pay out extra and get a floppy? Which is it?

Both.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[misleb]

I never remembered seeing anything other than 1.44MB "PC" USB floppy disk drives, which meant that there was no way to read Mac floppies on your iMac without using another Mac as a go-between.

You should have tried plugging one into a Mac. I have a USB floppy drive from around 1998 sitting in my closet that my wife used on her G3 tower w/ OS 9. I think she needed it for Quark or something like that.

-matthew

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

But that doesn't tell the whole story. I'd say IBM sells a greater % of it's laptops to companies than say...HP or Toshiba. If a business owns computer equipment they're much more like to get warranty service since the IT department is there to help and also business users are MUCH more careless with their laptops.

I think you're way off base in your thinking. It is fine to attack the methodology of Consumer Report's studies... but if you're going to do so you should look up what that methodology is. Primarily they use two methods:

1. Phone Surveys - to people who purchased a device using a specific credit card a set time period ago. This method suffers from self selection, but realistically I don't know how one could get large sample sizes at a reasonable cost otherwise.
2. Secret Shoppers - who go into retail stores and purchase machines without letting the store know they aren't a normal buyer (to avoid getting cherry picked systems like most reviewers who get them as freebies from the company being reviewed).

Neither of these methods is affected by percentage in use by businesses and availability of IT departments. In fact, I don't even know how IT departments would skew the results. Sure maybe business purchases are more likely to get warranties, but they're also more likely to be able to fix software related problems themselves and which is a larger factor is anyone's guess.

So let me be perfectly frank. Consumer Reports methodology is imperfect and will not be 100% accurate... but they are also the best data set I have seen to date and as such are the best way to make a logical decision instead of one influenced by emotional attachment or revulsion with regard to purchases. Anecdotes are like assholes, everyone has one, but they don't pass the smell test. Personally, having owned both IBM and Apple products, I've had more failures with Apple systems and I've had tons of problems with Dell systems. That does not, however, bias my judgement because when I want an independent, researched opinion I don't look to the tiny sample size that is my experience. I don't even pay too much attention to the data our IT department collected. If you have a better independent and unbiased study you want to put forward, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, you and pretty much every other comment in this thread is just not useful for determining the truth, just for defending one's own insecurity about their past purchases or venting their anger about past incidents.

Sure maybe Apple users tend to live on the west coast more where carbon dioxide emissions in the air tend to make sunspots less damaging to electronics or maybe IBM users tend to be smokers which builds up inside the fans causing those machines to fail more often, whereas in a controlled environment test they would do better. Maybe magic fairy creatures are involved somehow. Maybe it is Newt Gingrich's fault somehow. We can speculate endlessly, but it isn't really productive compared to seeing the result of the best estimation published by an unbiased company who relies upon their reputation for determining these things as their primary asset.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[toddestan]

You should have tried plugging one into a Mac. I have a USB floppy drive from around 1998 sitting in my closet that my wife used on her G3 tower w/ OS 9. I think she needed it for Quark or something like that.


The ones I was thinking of were floppies from the variable speed drives, though I had forgotten that Apple had already dropped that format a while before the iMac entered the scene. AFAIK no one has ever made a USB variable speed floppy drive.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[misleb]

The ones I was thinking of were floppies from the variable speed drives, though I had forgotten that Apple had already dropped that format a while before the iMac entered the scene. AFAIK no one has ever made a USB variable speed floppy drive.

Yes, quite a while before. Variable speed drives were used for 800k disks. Like, before 1990.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[mdwh2]

Except that the CDTV wasn't meant to be a general purpose computer and lacked a lot more than just a floppy drive.

It most certainly was a general purpose computer, and you could plug in keyboard and mouse - and a floppy if you wanted (and it was later sold as a general purpose computer). This makes about as much sense as saying the imac wasn't meant to be a general purpose computer. It's the classic Apple trick of claiming a "first", where everything else previous is ignored by changing the definitions (e.g., claiming the first 64 bit "PC"). It's also again a case of having it both ways - not including things is branded as a step forward, but here you discount the CDTV because you could buy it without even more things.

The Amiga CDTV was the first (or at least one of the earlier ones) to drop the floppy drive. I don't think that's any major step in any case, but let's not pretend Apple were doing any innovating to do the same thing years later. It was just part of a natural gradual trend as floppy drives became less common.

Both.

Same with the CDTV then.

Re:I disagree, the Thinkpad is beautiful.

[misleb]

The Amiga CDTV was the first (or at least one of the earlier ones) to drop the floppy drive. I don't think that's any major step in any case, but let's not pretend Apple were doing any innovating to do the same thing years later. It was just part of a natural gradual trend as floppy drives became less common.

I'm sorry, did I EVER say that Apple was the "first" to not include a floppy drive or even imply it? No. You're just being a pedantic idiot. Besides, who gives a crap what th CDTV did? It was an utter failure anyway. I didn't even know it existed until you mentioned it. I had to look it up on WIkipedia.

Both.

Same with the CDTV then.

Moron.

Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[the_humeister]

At least that's what the people over at ars say

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[mwvdlee]

Ars only tests the speed of those.
They don't test how much physical abuse the SSHD can take compared to the HDD.
Which is basically the main reason for wanting SSHD; making sure data survives.

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[TheRaven64]

Also battery life. The SSD version of the Air is rumoured to get another hour on top of the battery life of the HD version. If this is true, it makes the SSD more attractive. Still not $999 more attractive, but in a couple of years...

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[Hannes2000]

I don't really believe it. My 2.5"-Harddrive consumes about 3-4W, I presume SSDs consume at least 1-2W. Can that be a full hour?

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[pieterh]

I have a MBA with SSD. The battery lasts 4-5 hours for normal work but some graphics-heavy work (like video or using coverflow for browsing) uses the CPU heavily and drains power faster. The SSD is silent and _very_ fast in some important places. E.g. startup of OpenOffice.org takes about 3 seconds in place of 15 seconds on my MacBook. It is a snappy machine. OS/X does not need the horsepower of Vista. The design is obviously minimalist, you need to appreciate "less is more" to like the MBA. The closest match for it is the Sony X505, which was also designed to be supermodel thin but which had a poorer build quality. My X505 was slightly warped, and died from some internal power failure, and was unrepairable. It cost 2-3 times what the MBA costs, and battery life was 1.5 hours max.

The MBA is a very beautiful machine, and part of the beauty is the minimalism. The machine is also elegantly designed, the aluminium casing feels tough and smooth. It's almost instant on, after a sleep, and the keyboard backlighting is very useful.

Overall, I much prefer working on the MBA than my MacBook, and the only thing I can seriously say is missing from the MBA, or wrong with it, is that I can't (yet) run Kubuntu from USB.

I put a fuller review of the MBA here.

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[hacker]

I'll give you one major downside... no disk platters, no data recovery. Want to undelete some files you accidentally deleted before you overwrite the data sectors? Bzzt... SSHD makes that impossible.

Sure, backups make that a lot easier, but not a lot of people do backups between the time they had the files, and when they deleted the files they wanted to keep.

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[Dahan]

I'll give you one major downside... no disk platters, no data recovery. Want to undelete some files you accidentally deleted before you overwrite the data sectors? Bzzt... SSHD makes that impossible.

Recovering files before the data sectors are overwritten can be done using software only, and doesn't require access to disk platters. When you delete a file, the blocks that were used by the file are marked as free. To recover the data, just read those blocks back (finding which blocks those are is left as an exercise for the reader).

Now, if you want to undelete some files you accidentally deleted after you've already overwritten the data sectors, then supposedly, with magnetic media, a trace of the previous data is left and can be recovered. I have no idea if there are any techniques that could do the same for a SSHD.

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[hacker]

When you delete a file, the blocks that were used by the file are marked as free. To recover the data, just read those blocks back (finding which blocks those are is left as an exercise for the reader).

Again, impossible with SSHD, because those blocks are reallocated by the physical hardware once the data is confirmed to be deleted. AFAIK, there's nothing the OS on top of that hardware can do to stop the hardware from doing what it does "electronically" by design.

Re:Too bad these SSHD aren't really worth it

[isometrick]

Also seek time.

Re:apple fanbois

[hjf]

avoid feeding the trolls! (Disclaimer: I'm using an Apple Wireless Keyboard).

The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Clockwurk]

The price for an Air with SSD is $3100. The thinkpad also has a nicer display (1440x900 vs 1280x800), removable battery, a faster processor (2.0ghz vs 1.8ghz), and weighs less (2.5lbs vs 3lbs), more ports (ethernet, usb), better speakers (LOL Airbook has mono), a microphone, and a built in DVD burner.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Calinous]

The Thinkpad X300 comes at 3.15 or so lbs (granted, it includes an optical drive)

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[bkr1_2k]

There really isn't much point in "comparing" these two machines, they're so different. Seriously, the comparison that the Thinkpad is nearly $1k more than the Apple is ridiculous when you consider the extra functionality of just the DVD alone. I don't think most people use more than one USB port, but having a wired E-net and removable battery make the cost difference worth it, if you're in the market for a light machine.

I have Macs at home, but you have to recognize that the Air may be pretty, but it's sorely lacking in features that many people consider necessary these days.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

The price for an Air with SSD is $3100. The thinkpad also has a nicer display (1440x900 vs 1280x800), removable battery, a faster processor (2.0ghz vs 1.8ghz), and weighs less (2.5lbs vs 3lbs), more ports (ethernet, usb), better speakers (LOL Airbook has mono), a microphone, and a built in DVD burner.

Sure, but does it come with a distortion field?

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Otter]

These "with the standard battery and DVD drive" weights don't include the power supply, right? I don't know about new Thinkpad models, but back when I had a work-issued T40 the power supply was extremely heavy, and the real weight when carrying it through an airport was much higher than for my Mac, even though the two specced out roughly equal on paper.

And that's not just Mac fanboyism, as the Dell I have now also has a much lighter power supply than the T40, although still bulkier, heavier and far uglier than my old TiBook's.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Saint Fnordius]

The issues I do not see addressed when comparing these two notebook computers are not many, but they do play a role:

Case design: which case is more robust? Is Apple's metal case better suited for a thin notebook or is Lenovo's ThinkPad design better suited for fitting in your briefcase? Oh, and what about the power brick? Those few minutes untangling a power cord when setting up for a long meeting can be important. Design means not only looks, but also workflow and durability of the components.

Apropos meetings: which of the two is easier to use to make a presentation with a strange beamer? How about logging into a free WiFi hotspot? Sharing files?

Workflow: which job type would benefit from which computer? Although reporters and writers seem to be the target of both computers, what about sales reps? Developers and support techs who go to their clients? If your company uses Lotus Domino servers, will the MacBook Air make your IT staff nervous?

Now, I really don't know the answers, but these questions are what I feel makes the decision important. I own both a PowerBook and a ThinkPad, and though the ThinkPad is newer and has a better screen, etc., I still prefer to work with the PowerBook. It simply fits my workflow better.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[blackchiney]

Display I can agree with, the removable battery: most people by ultralights so they don't have to schlep around another battery, you did lose me on the processor seeing as the Lenovo has 1.2GHz ULV Core Duo versus the Airs 1.8GHz. it also weighs slightly more, and laptop speakers are a shame no matter where you put them. The air has a microphone 2 in fact, right there next to the camera.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[(H)elix1]

I disagree - that was apples to app ^H^H^H - a fair comparison. Both were priced with a $1000 SSD drive. Apple gives you the option for a 80GB 4200-rpm Parallel ATA hard disk drive to cut a grand off the price. According to this guy, the SSD drive will be the only option at launch with other options to follow. When they do offer drive options - and they must - I bet they will be SATA based drives like the rest of the Thinkpad series (all of them). Price will drop a grand as well when spinning disk is substituted for solid state.

Additionally, there is a very good chance that the DVD bay is removable, and can be replaced with another 2.5" large capacity HDD.

The options they are packing into the x300 are exactly what I was hoping the mac air ultra portable would have. When they start shipping without SSD's, I'm sure IT will have one waiting for me - with an extra battery back and HDD tray.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[eldepeche]

No wireless, less space than a Nomad.

When are you guys going to realize that most people care about more than a spec sheet? I think the Air sucks too, but it's for wealthy non-technical people to check their e-mail on the couch. If it was for real work, then they would have put a better battery in it, and it would have been heavier and bigger, and then it would just be a really expensive MacBook.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[costas]

Well, Lenovo just released this, which looks very nice to this road warrior...

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[pebs]

Apple's notebooks are also lacking a trackpoint-like mouse. I personally can't stand touchpads, even the ones on Apple's notebooks. The trackpoint is a much better input device when done right, and the ones on the Thinkpads work quite well.

My current notebook is an old Thinkpad T23 that only has a trackpoint and no touchpad. Although I really like OS X (own both a Mac Pro and Mac Mini) and really want a mobility for some of the apps I use on it, this seemingly small issue is enough to make me unsure about whether my next notebook will be a MacBook or a Thinkpad. It's a big issue to me, an analogy would be the touch screen keyboard on the iPhone being a reason people don't want it over a phone with a real QWERTY keyboard.

A used Thinkpad X-series is likely to be next laptop purchase (I bought the T23 used). And I would be running Linux on it of course, which I enjoy more than OS X anyway, but the few video and audio apps I use on OS X make a Mac possibly more useful to me. So I haven't really made a decision.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

"Those few minutes untangling a power cord when setting up for a long meeting can be important."

I hope not. I'd shoot myself in the face before I let this become true.

Seriously, if the 30 seconds it takes to untangle a cord (if it takes you minutes, you need to have you motor skills checked) matters, your life isn't worth living.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[bestinshow]

Whether or not the display is nicer or not is subjective - the higher resolution display might have poorer image quality. However personally I would prefer the higher resolution because I have good eyes and like to fit a lot on the screen and don't mind text and stuff being smaller.

What's the difference between a removable battery and an external battery? Nothing for travelling - they're the same weight, arguably the external battery is easier to use. What's the weight of the power adaptor - other Thinkpads have veritable bricks.

Weighs less? All the articles on this laptop have said it weights > 3lbs with a "standard" battery. Still a good weight.

Propers wins are: Ethernet, More USB, Proper speakers, DVD Burner, (subjective, personally I hate them) the nipple mouse thing, cheaper than SSD Air.
Proper losses are: (subjective) looks, product volume/slimness, software installed (for home users), plastic, much more expensive than HD Air.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

Googling for specs, it seems most sources think the X300 CPU is a 2.0GHz dual core. Also, it has a line-in port where the Air has none.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[iocat]

I only use the trackpoint on my ThinkPad T61 (in fact, I have the track pad disabled), but I was surprised, when I bought a MacBook, how quickly I got use to the pad. It's definitely not as good, but it hasn't turned out to be a dealbreaker in terms of productivity. And for very casual, on your back surfing (admit it, you surf in bed), it's actually superior sometimes.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[poot_rootbeer]

better speakers (LOL Airbook has mono)

It's a computer the size of a spiral notebook. What's the point of putting TWO speaker drivers inside the case when the discernible stereo effect will be mild to absent under a normal usage scenario?

Unless you were going for a puerile pun about the "kissing disease", in which case carry on.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong about the processor and weight.

The Thinkpad uses a 1.2GHz ULV processor - significantly slower than the Air. And the Thinkpad weighs just OVER 3 lbs, so the difference may be negligable, but it's not .5 lb lighter.

So if you're running any long processing task, the Air will spank the Thinkpad, as long as it's not bottlenecked by that hard drive.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[gad_zuki!]

Christ how many times does this need to be repeated:

THE LOW PRICED AIR DOES NOT COME WITH A SSD.

THIS DOES.

THE SSD FOR THE AIR IS 1300 DOLLARS.

http://gizmodo.com/345101/adding-a-64gb-ssd-to-the-macbook-air-1300-extra-please

Sorry, the caps lock got the better of me.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Tibor the Hun]

Yeah, but it also comes with Windows, which takes all those things and throws them down the toilet.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

"arguably the external battery is easier to use"

I'd like to hear this argument so I could laugh at how stupid it is. And you by extension for attempting it.

"Proper losses are: (subjective)"

So, you discount the screen as subjective even though it is objectively, measurably better, then choose to include something objective as a loss?

You're a pathetic Apple fagboi who is trying to pretend he's not a fagboi and failing.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[bartman]

The only thing that the x300 is missing is DVI out.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[TheRaven64]

I was surprised, when I bought a MacBook, how quickly I got use to the pad. It's definitely not as good, but it hasn't turned out to be a dealbreaker in terms of productivity Interesting. I feel exactly the same but going the other way. The trackpoint on my ThinkPad is much worse for large movements than a decent-sized trackpad (you have an accelerate then slow movement rather than just a long swipe) but the real killer is the lack of dimensions. Not being able to scroll horizontally and vertically is a huge pain. I even miss the MBP's trackpad when I am using the machine with an external display, keyboard and mouse, since horizontal scrolling is much harder with every other pointing device I've used. With the MBP, I just drag two fingers around and have 2D scrolling.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Cal Paterson]

I think the original post is probably a cautionary tale about the dangers of logging in. Put crap to your name, and you have to live with it.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

mono? are you serious? Or are they more like, what, you DON"T have an iPod for your music??

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[kextyn]

It wouldn't surprise me if the docking station for it has DVI. I have docking stations for T43s that have DVI. I have yet to see a laptop with a DVI port on it. But I also don't go looking at laptops at stores nor do I ever look at Macbooks. I do however have some new HPs with an HDMI port which is even better than DVI (yes, it has audio output on the HDMI as well.)

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[onefriedrice]

Or consider that you can get a wireless router for your home/office, another cheap computer (if you don't already have one) to use as an optical drive server, and even a cheap USB hub if you really want for less than the extra cost of the Thinkpad, and you'll have a hard drive big enough to actually store some files if you go for the MacBook Air. And I thought Macs were expensive... I'm typing this from my Thinkpad T42. Actually, I'm not in a great position to talk about "new" computers. From what I've seen, none of them really are as good in quality as they used to be. These old Thinkpads are solid, and so are the old Powerbooks. These "new" laptops are too expensive for me anyway.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[jargoone]

Under both Linux and Windows, it's pretty easy to set up the middle button to allow you to use the trackpoint to scroll. IMO, it completely 0wns any touch pad scrolling, because you can scroll down 1000 comments on a /. page by moving your finger a couple of millimeters.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[DJCacophony]

Yeah, because when I want to watch a DVD on an airplane, the first thought that comes to me is "I should bring a full fledged tower-form factor desktop computer, wireless router, and 50 pound UPS along with me, set up a wireless network on the plane, and watch my movies off the hard drive and optical drive of the desktop". Yeah, that sure is a great justification for the failure that is no optical drive.

Not.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, I think you mean the ThinkPad weighs more (3.17lbs) and is much slower (1.2 vs 1.6Ghz). Check your facts please.

Full comparison here:
http://www.macrumors.com/2008/02/13/mossberg-previews-lenovo-thinkpad-x300-pits-against-macbook-air/

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

"does that make you more or less worthwhile than the parent?"

Well, I don't require minutes to untangle a cord, so more. FAR FAR MORE.

And you're right, me logging in would obviously influence the OP's ability to untangle a cord.

Let me guess, it takes you minutes too? I knew you were retarded after reading your post.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Bryan Ischo]

Most people disagree with you, and can't stand trackpoints, which is why they are in only very few laptops anymore. I am one of those who dislikes trackpoints, and it's why I have never, or will ever, consider buying a Thinkpad. I don't like having that little thing in the keyboard; maybe it's the way I type, but every time I have had to use a laptop which had one, my fingers were constantly 'tripping' on it. Very annoying.

There is an annoyance with trackpads too - the base of my thumb sometimes hits it accidentally and then the cursor suddenly jumps to some random place and I find that my last few words have been inserted in the middle of some other part of my document instead of at the end. That is annoying but only happens once every couple of days despite how much typing I do.

I wish that IBM would offer a Thinkpad without the trackpoint; how hard can it be to have a replacement keyboard, for the majority of people who don't use trackpoints (yes the modern Thinkpads have *both* a trackpad and trackpoint, but I don't just want to be able to use a trackpad, I specifically want to *not* have a trackpoint in there, and I think many people would agree. Besides, having two pointing devices really seems like a hack doesn't it?).

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[pebs]

Horizontal and vertical scrolling are nice, and I have used extensively a laptop with a touchpad that supported that before I got my Thinkpad with only a trackpoint. I don't miss it at all. Like the other guy said, you could configure the middle mouse for this if you really wanted to.

Oh yeah, and did I mention the Thinkpad has 3 mouse buttons? Apple one-button philosophy has its worst impact in its notebook line.

The other thing that makes a trackpoint really nice is you never have to take your hands off the keyboard. With a touchpad, the thumbs aren't really great for such precise movement, and I generally use my fingers rather than my thumb.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[pebs]

Most people disagree with you, and can't stand trackpoints, which is why they are in only very few laptops anymore. I am one of those who dislikes trackpoints, and it's why I have never, or will ever, consider buying a Thinkpad. I don't like having that little thing in the keyboard; maybe it's the way I type, but every time I have had to use a laptop which had one, my fingers were constantly 'tripping' on it. Very annoying.

Though you are probably correct that most people don't like trackpoints, most people don't like touchpads either (but like them more than trackpoints). Most people prefer real mice, but those are just not as practical when you are on the go. Everyone at my workplace uses a separate mouse with their MacBook Pros or other laptops. It doesn't help the MacBooks that they only have one mouse button (hence an external mouse is almost a requirement for many people).

I think a lot of people haven't given trackpoints an honest chance. My girlfriend didn't like it at all at first, but one time when we were traveling I forgot to pack a mouse and she was forced to use it and she grew to really like it. Also, not all trackpoint clones are created equal. I bought a desktop keyboard that had a trackpoint-like stick, but it completely sucked as and was unusable; I had the same problems you described. The one on my Thinkpad T23 rocks, but that doesn't mean other manufacturers make good ones.

There is an annoyance with trackpads too - the base of my thumb sometimes hits it accidentally and then the cursor suddenly jumps to some random place and I find that my last few words have been inserted in the middle of some other part of my document instead of at the end. That is annoying but only happens once every couple of days despite how much typing I do.

When I had a notebook with only a touchpad this was a constant annoyance.

I wish that IBM would offer a Thinkpad without the trackpoint; how hard can it be to have a replacement keyboard, for the majority of people who don't use trackpoints (yes the modern Thinkpads have *both* a trackpad and trackpoint, but I don't just want to be able to use a trackpad, I specifically want to *not* have a trackpoint in there, and I think many people would agree. Besides, having two pointing devices really seems like a hack doesn't it?).

I am of course the opposite, I'm glad they have Thinkpads with *only* a trackpoint. Although it might be possible to disable the touchpad and use only the trackpoint (I hope you can do this at least), I think the touchpad is a waste of space. It's nice that on their ultra-portable (X series) you can get one with a trackpoint only.

You can pull the rubber eraser off of the trackpoint. It'll still be there (in the form of the plastic that rubber goes on top of), but I think it'll be mostly out of your way and your fingers will be less likely to trip on it. I'm not sure if you can specifically disable the trackpoint so that only the touchpad is active (or vice versa), but it would me nice if you could.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Lost Engineer]

I had a Sony with a huge brick around the same time frame likely.

The new Lenovo ones about the same in volume as a MacBook power supply with a different design. The big part is in the middle of the cord, so as to keep the end the size of a say a lamp plug. It's black and boxy, not unlike the machine itself. No appreciable weight.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[NMerriam]

I don't like having that little thing in the keyboard; maybe it's the way I type, but every time I have had to use a laptop which had one, my fingers were constantly 'tripping' on it.

You can just pull the little rubbery/textured piece off the top and the actual trackpoint stick sits below the keys.

I suspect there's a reason that IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads, which are the best-engineered laptops that sell to real road warriors who rely on laptops for their livelihood, are the ones that continue to integrate the trackpoint. Most of the heavy-duty, long-time computer abusers I know who have had an opportunity to use one prefer it to a touchpad, for a variety of reasons.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Lost Engineer]

I wish they'd make one without a Trackpad! My gut is always pressing the lower buttons while I'm typing or use the nipple!

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[NMerriam]

What's the point of putting TWO speaker drivers inside the case when the discernible stereo effect will be mild to absent under a normal usage scenario?

A Nintendo DS is barely larger than a deck of cards, and has very nice stereo effects (I assume they're using one of the psychoacoustic stereo "expanders"). Granted, with artificial sounds like a video game, you can play a lot more with DSP effects to create the impression of greater stereo separation -- but it's certainly not a waste of resources to put in that second speaker.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Bryan Ischo]

I think that Panasonic Toughbooks are the best-engineered laptops that sell to real road warrios who rely on laptops for their livelihood. Of course, they are outsold by Thinkpads by a huge margin, which I believe is more likely due to the greater market presence of IBM (now Lenovo) than technical superiority. Also, IBM/Lenovo put out many, many more models than Panasonic have of their "business tough" line (not their true hardened laptops which are almost certainly too bulky and expensive for travellers), so it's hard to make a fair comparison there; IBM/Lenovo are just much bigger in the laptop market than Panasonic. And yet, the few models that Panasonic make are really nice.

I am typing this on a Panasonic Toughbook Y2 that weighs 3.3 pounds, has a 14.1 inch display, and a titanium alloy case that is super strong and attractive. This laptop feels like it will go forever; after 3 years of nearly constant use it doesn't have the smallest bit of flex in any part of it and the hinge between the base and display is as tight and solid as ever. I like its sleek metal exterior in the same way that I like real metal bodies on late 70's Japanese hatchbacks. I don't like plastic!

Anyway, that's my plug for Panasonic.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[dave562]

My only gripe with trackpoints is how they seem to start drifting over time. It has happened on notebooks from a whole slew of vendors (IBM, Toshiba and HP in my experience). The mouse pointer just starts moving on its own. The solution seems to be the same on all of them... squeeze the case together to reseat whatever has come loose. I still prefer the trackpoint over the touchpad any day.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[dave562]

The Panasonics are nice laptops and are very sturdy. I like the built in carrying handle. You could totally beat someone to death with the laptop, or use it to stop some small caliber bullets. I have a problem with the high cost of them though. For the price of a Panasonic Toughbook you can afford to break two or three Thinkpads. I'm not talking about these $3000 ultra-light MacBook Air-like Thinkpads... but the normal, every day T-series Thinkpads.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[dave562]

Thank you for saving me the time of having to type up a similar response, but you forgot the external 1TB NAS device. ;)

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[dave562]

Workflow: which job type would benefit from which computer?

I still prefer to work with the PowerBook. It simply fits my workflow better.

I knew that as soon as I saw the original mention of "workflow" that you were a Mac user and going down to the last paragraph it was confirmed. I hope this doesn't come across as hostile... WTF is it with the workflow meme and Mac users? Is it some sort of graphic design jargon that is now "in" among the ultra-hip Mac user community? The rest of the computer world simply does their "job" or follows their "process." OSX users are always going on about their "work flows" and how their computer needs to support their "work flow". Why don't you guys just go ahead and rename it your iJob and get it over with? ;)

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[dave562]

it's for wealthy non-technical people to check their e-mail on the couch.

Oh... so it's like a really expensive work-leash or an oversized, vastly overpriced Blackberry then?

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

You like having a post in the middle of your keyboard? It works well for VP's that don't know how to type and don't really use their machines except to hit the mouse button to go to the next slide. For those of us that are real computer users that know how to type, the posts are utterly unacceptable. The prevent you from hitting the keys and just plain hurt. They're even worse for women that don't keep their fingernails manly short. My wife used to work for a manicurist when we lived in upstate NY, and a lot of the women that worked for IBM and had OuchPads had fingernails that were partially (and painfully) detached due to the posts. Where I work now we have Dell Latitude 820's, and several of the people here have damanged nails from the posts that Dell decided to punish their users with. Anything, for example undersized keys, posts, non-standard layouts, short travel, etc., are just unacceptable for people that really need a laptop.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[NMerriam]

True, Toughbooks are only beaten by even more ruggedized systems like Fieldworks (I did lots of remote international travel for a group with a big budget, so I've used pretty much every system available in the worst possible conditions). But for "normal" abusive business travelers, I think the Thinkpads are more than enough (particularly with a SSD). The Toughbooks really come into their own in places where they're regularly exposed to moisture/mud/dust, weird power, animals, etc -- not the typical business abuse of dropping, spilling, smacking, etc where the Thinkpads are tough enough. But yeah, if money is no object, you may as well get a Toughbook over a Thinkpad.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Bryan Ischo]

I think you may be unfamiliar with Panasonic's "business tough" line of laptops. They are not the ultra hardened ones sold to the military, police, etc. They are sold to businesses as sturdy, light, and reliable laptops for travelers.

You should google search for Panasonic Y5, W5, or T5 (or even R5 if you don't mind a Japanese-only model) to see examples of these laptops.

They can have water/coffee spilled on them, a car run over them, or a 200 lb person stand on them and they are fine. Also they can be dropped from a typical desk height and survive unscathed. However these are not the super hardened versions that you may be familiar with, and they can't withstand everything that those can.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[ksheff]

I type a lot on mine and have no problems with it at all. I don't see why hitting it while typing would hurt. Either you're typing way too hard and/or have an extremely low pain threshold. I don't know why women like long nails, especially the freakish ones that stick out more than 3/8". Those IBMers should have wised up and cut their nails back to a sane length.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[iocat]

I'm pretty sure the ThinkPad comes with the middle button enabling horizonal and vertical scrolling by default (all of mine have). I like the Mac's two finger scrolling for small things, bu the trackpoint + middle button is the scrolling champ IMHO.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[lucas teh geek]

how does one scroll with a trackpoint? it always seemed like going back to a mouse without a scroll wheel to me

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[doh123]

well of course not everyone is the same... i too hate touchpads, but I absolutely love the ones on Apple machines, they are unlike any other laptops touchpads. But those I'm glad you liek those crapy little track point things, your the first person I've seen that actually likes those... I cant stand them at all. I have yet to see any built in pointing device on any laptop that I like, except the Apple touchpads. Really wish I could get an external one to use on my desktops.

There is no way someone will make a laptop that every feature everyone will like. Claiming one thing is really bad in something and something else is really good, is nothing but opinion. Just because its your opinion, doesn't mean is the most popular opinion. I sure wouldn't assume one would sell better or worse int he market just over what i preferred on it.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

...unlike most Mac users who come with OS X.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[wikinerd]

I don't think most people use more than one USB port

Is this Slashdot?

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Alomex]

Click on middle button with thumb, while pushing trackpoint up/down with index finger.

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[pebs]

There is no way someone will make a laptop that every feature everyone will like. Claiming one thing is really bad in something and something else is really good, is nothing but opinion. Just because its your opinion, doesn't mean is the most popular opinion. I sure wouldn't assume one would sell better or worse int he market just over what i preferred on it.

Yes, I understand I'm in a very small minority of people who feel the way I do, but I'm just expressing my opinion and pointing out that the design of Apple's notebooks aren't great for everyone. I thought that was pretty obvious when I used the word "personally."

Re:The thinkpad pretty much spanks the Air

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry I'm anon coward--can't find my new pw.

The comparison between the ThinkPad and the Mac Air is between the two models with Solid State HDDs--if I understand correctly, the Lenovo comes with the same HD capacity (64 MB) but with the usual ports and stuff, and costs a few hundred less--is this right? If so, the ThinkPad could become one's only machine, but the Air would just, as Apple has admitted, be an adjunct to a desktop or bigger notebook Mac. Which is fine in principle (I have about 4 machines I use) but not everyone has multiple machines.

And, re the battery issue: how can anyone trust Apple on this after the iPod battery debacle? Sounds like a lot of third party solutions to this unit's battery problems are on the horizon.

Square is Sexy.

[FatSean]

Boxy is Beautiful. If you want over-styled machines with a sluggish UI, be my guest. I prefer more a more clean and less cluttered experience.

Re:Square is Sexy.

[IBBoard]

I take it you wipe XP/Vista fairly quickly if you want a cleaner and less cluttered experience, then ;)

Re:Square is Sexy.

[somersault]

Boxy is Beautiful. If you want over-styled machines with a sluggish UI, be my guest. I prefer more a more clean and less cluttered experience. Yeah but we're not talking about Vista here, we're talking about Mac OS? ;)

I have a Macbook Pro and the interface for MacOS is much cleaner than XP and Vista. I have a dual boot into XP Pro for happier integration into the domain at work, but at home I'm starting to use Mac OS more and more. I like having a proper UNIX derived terminal, and it's great for stuff like watching movies as I can get from being powered down, to the desktop far quicker in MacOS. When it comes to actually viewing media, frontrow is a much more pleasant experience than Windows Media Player - not saying much really, but it is a good interface, especially when combined with the little remote that you get with Macbooks. If you're wondering why I don't just use my DVD player it's because it's set to the UK region code, and the anime that I'm mostly watching at the moment is region-whateverthehecktheUScodeis :p

I agree that boxy is beautiful when it comes to stuff like car design (old Audis, old Toyota MR2, and the Mistubishi Lancer Evo VI come to mind), but not so much for gadgets.

Re:Square is Sexy.

[reidconti]

Seriously? You can debate hardware design -- I like both the MBA and the Thinkpads, and the Thinkpad might very well age better. But there's no way on earth Vista or XP is less cluttered or faster.

Re:Square is Sexy.

[Calinous]

Old Volvos are boxy - also, the G Class wagon from Mercedes. Compared to that, Audi are aerodynamic wonders

Re:Square is Sexy.

[somersault]

Yeah I was thinking of Volvos too, my dad had a couple of Volvo estates in the 80s/90s.. they could maybe be described as 'ruggedly handsome' or functional, but not quite sexy :P

Re:Square is Sexy.

[chaboud]

XP is faster (handles high thread-count cases more efficiently and has a stupidly-easy-to-render UI), but it's certainly not less cluttered. One could argue that it has one bar to OS X's two, or that, un-themed, it's very spartan, but who cares? It's going away as an OS. Amiga Workbench 3.0 was awesome...

Vista is just Vista, though things like the type-find Start-bar are great time-savers if your machine has the horsepower to put the Start menu up in under 10 seconds...

But waging the OS war is somewhat ridiculous when you have three ports in an alien-bay-door as your only comfort for your road-warrior-unfriendly dead battery in an otherwise road-warrior-passable silhouette (it ain't perfect if it's tall enough to get the crunch-of-death from the coach-class seats that your company puts you in if the flight is less than eight hours).

In the world of practical portables, Apple brought a spoon to a knife fight. Apple's not playing for practical, though, so they'll be just fine.

Re:Square is Sexy.

[dave562]

Boxy is Beautiful.

Exactly. Long live the HK USP. ;)

Re:Square is Sexy.

[dave562]

Exactly. I went from Datsun 510s to Volvo 940s.

Re:Square is Sexy.

[fugue]

Good analogy! MacBooks fly much further than ThinkPads if you get them spinning like a frisbee.

But There's No Illusion of Thin

[dsginter]

The problem with the Thinkpad is that it doesn't taper at the edges (not that this helps anything except for aesthetics). Apple really created an illusion of thin when they adopted this design (the Air is only like an eighth of an inch thinner that the MacBook but it looks *much* thinner because of the taper).

Apple really pulled off a magic trick with the Air. Marketing genius.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[darjen]

Why is this a problem? I actually prefer Thinkpad's brick design; especially the new one of the T60 which is slightly more rounded than the T43.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's unfortunate that Lenovo is going for functionality over style... such a shame...

Sarcasm aside, I don't think they're geared to the same markets, IBM/Lenovo (the thinkpad brand anyway) has always been geared toward business professionals where functionality and stability is of the utmost importance. Apple's focus has always been on the average user who'd like to have a home setup that looks aesthetically pleasing which is really exemplified in the Macbook Air.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[networkconsultant]

Doesn't matter I'm buying neither they are both ultra portable however a 13.3 Dell XPS is a bit thicker may shock me due to construction and only costs about a grand less then either of the two with comparable specifications.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[Dr. Eggman]

But what I want to know is why is thin even in? I prefer something sturdy, reliable, and preferably with a battery I can change myself. What is it with the obsession with how the thing looks, if it does so at the cost of utility (64 gigabytes on a 2k+ machine, you've got to be joking!) My tastes prefer a higher utility and durability.

Then again, I must disclaim my statements with the following revelations about my tastes in general. I enjoyed Cloverfield and look forward to purchasing the DVD, I liked the Star Wars prequels (especially the sfx and cgi,) and feel the Sonic CD US soundtrack is better than the Japanese Soundtrack.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[pizzach]

Brain storming time! Hm...maybe the tapering makes it easier to clasp the computer with one hand without fear of dropping it? That is the closest to utility that I can think of so far. It does make it a horrible cup holder though because of the slope. I find the round dell button on the top of many laptops works great for that.

When I compared the photo's of Leveno's and Apple's computers, Apple's was the one that just by looking at it, advertised "I'm thin, look at me!!!" which is great advertising. I wouldn't have known that Leveno is going to be competing in this size sector without someone actually stating it. In the end, Leveno's computer looks more like Macbook Pro thin to me. So, what is the difference between a regular macbook which has the extra ports and this Leveno computer? Is the Leveno actually appreciably thinner than a Macbook pro?

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[framauro13]

Which is why I've grown against most Apple products after using them. Marketing genius masks the lack of features. The only Apple product I've kept is the iPod Nano w/Nike+, I'll give them credit there; THAT's an innovative system.

Thinkpads have always been good, sturdy, reliable machines. As long as it gets the job done, I can do without a pretty case design.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[eldepeche]

I agree. I don't understand why there is variation among the preferences of a large number of people with completely different needs and budgets.

Go back to Russia.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with the Thinkpad is that it doesn't taper at the edges (not that this helps anything except for aesthetics). Apple really created an illusion of thin when they adopted this design (the Air is only like an eighth of an inch thinner that the MacBook but it looks *much* thinner because of the taper).

Apple really pulled off a magic trick with the Air. Marketing genius.

Genius? Hardly. In 1999 I had an IBM thinkpad which did the exact same thing, tapering at the edges to look thinner. It was a great laptop for the time, with built-in ethernet, floppy & CD.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[walter_f]

"The problem with the Thinkpad is that it doesn't taper at the edges. Apple really created an illusion of thin when they adopted this design..."

As a posting elsewhere on slashdot some days ago put it,
"If the Macbook Air were so thin one could slice tomatoes with it, I wouldn't buy it." ;-)

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[initdeep]

and I bought my m1330 WITH SSD, T7500, 3GB RAM, DVDRW, ETHERNET PORT, HDMI port, Camera, LED screen, and everything else for less than $2200 SHIPPED to my door.

And so did several of my friends.

God love EPP deals.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[lazyforker]

The MBA actually is thin. It's simple geometry. The wedge shape occupies half the volume of a rectangular profile.

I was skeptical until I actually held the MBA in my hands. Now I'm a believer. It's not for your average /.er but for the globetrotting exec who basically checks email, reads documents/presentations and does some light web surfing the MBA is perfect. Especially if he/she's trying to travel light (carry-on only). I wouldn't recommend it for a dev or engineer. Personally I would love one for my couch but I can't afford it.

Our CEO loves his MBA - he used to have an MBP. He doesn't need to watch DVDs in the air (he's in First or Upper or Grand Panjandrum or Muad'dib Class with personal TV, open bar, masseuse etc etc) or install software (he pays the IT monkeys to do that). When he's at home he's wireless; in the offices he leaves a wired USB-ethernet dongle at his desks. This guy's time and energy is worth a lot more than a laptop so if somehow he smashes the damn thing we'll buy him another. High level execs are not like the rest of us...

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[Anonymous Coward]

that will be marketing genius when they sell a million of that crap and by crap i dont mean all of MAC's machine just that crap thin crust pizza of a mac.

remember the cube?

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[DJCacophony]

Try grabbing a heavy three ring binder by the spine end of it, and then by the open end of it, and tell me which side affords you a better, more secure grip.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[businessnerd]

Your CEO doesn't sound like the typical globetrotting exec. Most globetrotting execs (or at least globetrotting businesspeople) need as much utility out of their laptop as possible. I should know, I'm a globetrotting consultant. Right now the only appeal that the Air has is weight. Most globetrotting execs don't just check e-mail and surf the web. So let's paint a picture of what a real globetrotter uses a computer for...

Wake up (at 4am) and quickly check e-mail and print boarding pass. Off to the airport. Check e-mail again while waiting to board. Get on plane. Cruising altitude reached, so out comes the laptop and start working on that presentation (here's where battery life and being able to replace that battery when it dies comes in). Arrive at destination, and off to client. Arrive at client and walk straight into meeting. Hook up laptop up to projector (here' where all of those external ports come into play). Meeting finishes. You do some more things at a guest cubicle. You break out a mouse for comfort (1 usb port) then someone comes by with a document on a memory stick (need another usb port, but the Air is all out of 'em) They want you to view a presentation that's on DVD or VCD (here's where that optical drive comes in handy and not so you can watch a hollywood movie - there's no time for that). End of day, go back to hotel. You need the internet. No wireless here, so it's gotta be wired (yeah that wired ethernet port really comes in handy right about now). Go to sleep.

So let's recap. What is really important to a globetrotting exec? Versatility. You need lots of standard ports (VGA, lots of USB, etc.) and an optical drive, which Air doesn't have. You need reliable battery life. This means that when the battery is dead, as in won't hold it's charge, you can replace that battery. My 1 year old Dell already has 32% health, which means 1 hour of battery life. Tomorrow when I'm actually in the same state as my office, I'll pick up a new one and off I go. Air does not have a removeable battery. And at the end of the day, you need durability. Usually I'm not checking my laptop (or anything) with the airlines, but it gets crammed in to overhead bins, kicked under the seat, thrown into TSA x-ray bins, dropped, bumped, etc. ThinkPads are known for their durability. I can't speak for Mac on this, so I won't knock the Air for this, but it is a concern for the globetrotter. In closing, your CEO is not a good example of the globetrotting exec. A real globetrotting exec demands much more from their laptop.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[davidsyes]

It's a good thing pills are tapered... Lozenges would otherwise be lodged-inges..

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[dcam]

You make some really good points, hoever ... You break out a mouse for comfort (1 usb port) then someone comes by with a document on a memory stick (need another usb port, but the Air is all out of 'em)...

Most people with a Mac would get a mighty mouse.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[kiwirob]

Enough with the FUD.

How about on the plane you use a power adapter http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=1413E0A0&fnode=home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air&nplm=MB441Z/A
If you need to use a DVD then plug in the Macbook Air SuperDrive. http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=1413E09C&fnode=home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air&nplm=MB397G/A
Depending how many USB ports you need you can take along your USB Hub http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hub
Or if you will not be needing these accessories on any particular trip don't pack them in your luggage.

The Macbook Air is no the answer to everybody's needs, but this FUD about lack of DVD, USB ports and battery life is a joke. There are easy solutions to these problems is you so wish. If you don't want to get around these problems with the easy solutions you are probably not Apple's target market... move alone please...

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[Alomex]

There are easy solutions to these problems is you so wish.

I have a solution that costs the same and there is no need to lug bulky external peripherals or depends on the airplane being hotwired for electricity like you suggested. You might have heard of it: it's called Lenovo X300.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[kimgkimg]

Uh yeah total different market. So let's paint a picture of what a real macbook air user uses a computer for... Wake up (at 10am) and shuffle into the living room to look for pants. Dig under the sofa for the birkenstocks. Take the Prius down to the local Starbucks, order a Venti mochachino latte, half soy, half skimmed milk with just a dash of cinnamon. Take back order received because it was obvious they used 2% when I clearly said skimmed. Check email, write about the morning and witty people observations in my daily blog. Take some phone calls from my friends on my iPhone while getting evil stares from the couple next to me who are apparently annoyed by my loud conversations which totally don't involve them in any way. Head over to my friend Todd's place around 4pm to hang out and smoke weed. Order out for pizza.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[AncientPC]

If your max capacity is 32% of design capacity after just 1 year, then you can call up Dell and they will send you a new battery.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM did the tapered edge trick years ago, long before they could make them truly thin.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[businessnerd]

Yeah I'm working on a replacement. It's a company laptop w/ company warranty so it's just a matter of submitting the trouble ticket and getting one ordered. The comment wasn't to be a knock at Dell either. It's clearly a defective battery and Dell doesn't make the batter (probably Sony). The point is that batteries will need to be replaced, and I don't want to sacrifice my whole machine for however long it takes to replace it.

Re:But There's No Illusion of Thin

[AncientPC]

It's my understanding that Dell cross ships with battery pack replacements, good luck on getting your laptop fixed quickly.

Critics!

[iknownuttin]

But, unlike the Apple, Lenovo's new skinny ThinkPad comes with a hefty complement of ports and features, some of the very things critics complained Apple left out.

Maybe, Apple knows what its customers want and builds their machines for what most of their customers and not for the critics? And, well looky there, you can configure the machine to include those features. Why does everything have to be built in? And the Thnkpad is making compromises to have those things built in. God!

Not that I'm a fanboy or anything, it's just that these tech "journalists" piss me off sometimes.

Re:Critics!

[Calinous]

Could you install both the network adapter and the DVD drive? You know, without using an USB hub?

Re:Critics!

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, Apple knows what its customers want...

Apple customers wanted a USB slot that many of their devices couldn't fit into?

Re:Critics!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does everything have to be built in?

On an ultra-portable? Hmm... let me think...

Re:Critics!

[Constantine XVI]

And I don't believe you could even do that with a USB hub, because the Air's USB port has more power in it to power the DVD drive, and I doubt most hubs would be able to handle the extra voltage.

Re:Critics!

[Calinous]

(extra current, not extra voltage)
      Different devices for different people

Re:Critics!

[demallien2]

There I was, busy using my mod points on this story, and I come across this post.

Maaaaate, if you're going to shoot your mouth of, do at least try to get the tech details right - this is /. after all.

USB hubs do NOT have to handle "the extra voltage" from the MBA, for the good reason that the USB power supply is a voltage source, not a current source. In other words, the Apple USB port delivers the same voltage as any other USB port. Where it is different is that it can supply more current than a normal port, but it does this if and only if the device is trying to draw more current. In other words, a normal USB device, trying to draw a normal amount of current for the device, will still draw the same amount of current as it does when plugged into any other powered USB port.

This of course means that the reality is the exact opposite of your post - a MacBook Air will quite happily drive multiple devices off the one USB port, when using a hub, because there is more current available to share between devices. One may even suspect that Apple deliberately designed it that way!

Sheesh! don't they teach anything in high school physics classes anymore????

Re:Critics!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think maybe you misunderstood what the GP was mis-stating.

I read (between the lines) that a regular USB hub wouldn't be able to supply enough current to use the dvd drive.

Re:apple fanbois

[Genevish]

DISCLAIMER: This Slashdot comments page will also be filled with Apple haters who can't spell and who will blindly reject any argument that appears to be in favor of Apple products. Please remember to contribute to your local home for the mentally disabled. Thank you.

64 gigabytes of storage - Not so bad

[The Analog Kid]

for a solid state drive, which are very expensive right now. The X300 had as a lot of better features than the Air which outway the smaller drive size. Besides, I assume people who are going to use this are business types who travel a lot. I can't imagine they'll need much more for word files and power point presentations and if they really do then carry an external USB drive with you.

Re:64 gigabytes of storage - Not so bad

[The Second Horseman]

The Lenovo sales guys apparently want a version of this using a standard hard drive - they think it'll appeal to educational customers, among others. Should be interesting to see if they actually do it.

You know it.

[FatSean]

W2K stripped down lets me play the few games I enjoy, run eclipse, and waste time on the internet. Plus, I can re-install as often as I like. Someday I'll move to Linux...probably when I can run the latest Civilization game on it.

Re:You know it.

[Mad Merlin]

Someday I'll move to Linux...probably when I can run the latest Civilization game on it.

I think Civilization IV already runs in Wine, or the current patches of Civ IV, at least.

Toshiba makes better laptops than the Air...

[Anonymous Coward]

Toshiba makes some laptops that are lighter, thinner, better battery life, built-in ethernet, and a built-in CD/DVD drive.

How come Toshiba can do this and Apple can't?

Apple has a core group of customers who will buy anything from Apple, even if there are better products available.

Re:Toshiba makes better laptops than the Air...

[lbk70]

I had nothing but heartache with a Toshiba laptop - battery life: 45 minutes tops; Sound only worked sometimes and required a reboot to turn it back on. The wireless card worked sporadically - I was disconnected about every 10 minutes. I replaced it with a bargain Lenovo from woot.com and have no complaints about the hardware. The battery life is more than 2 hours, the sound is excellent, it has a built-in video and microphone for Skyping, DVD burner, well-placed ports and vents (it never gets too hot), excellent wireless and bluetooth, fingerprint reader and a card-reader slots for 5 types of media. I wouldn't take a free Toshiba laptop.

Re:Toshiba makes better laptops than the Air...

[Wolvie MkM]

Would you like to come to my work and see the stack of Toshiba's that died in or around a year of ownership?

Not an Apply fan boy but they make some quality hardware.

Toshiba hasn't made a reliable laptop (for my money) since the Tecra 8000.

Re:Toshiba makes better laptops than the Air...

[NMerriam]

Apple has a core group of customers who will buy anything from Apple, even if there are better products available.

Apple and IBM/Lenovo both have a core group of customers who laugh at people carrying Toshibas. Look at reliability surveys and you'll see why most professional computer users wouldn't dream of buying a laptop that doesn't say either Apple or Thinkpad on it. "Better" on a spec sheet doesn't mean a damn thing in the real world.

Complaints:

[r_jensen11]

Regarding the product:
The thing has a 13" screen and weighs more than 3 pounds. What niche is this trying to target? Other members of the X-series have 12.1" screens, and one of those has a beginning weight of 2.8lbs. I'd imagine the extra inch of screen would be more of an issue than the half-pound, but still.

Must purchase an OEM copy of either XP or Vista. R and T Series Thinkpads are being sold with the option of SuSE Enterprise Desktop 10, so why not the X Series?

Regarding the article:

... and will be limited to a paltry 64 gigabytes of storage. I'm sorry, but for the applications these laptops are going to be serving, 64GB of internal storage should be plenty. If not, well, there are plenty of external storage needs, whether NAS, thumb/pen drives, or full-fledged external hard drives (which one can choose a "portable" version or a not-so-portable version.)

No mention of a possible entry in the Reserve Series (and with the base price for the "standard" X300, who wouldn't want to pay $5,000 for a laptop!?)

Re:Complaints:

[jonnythan]

The niche that wants a decent-resolution screen (1440x900), full-size keyboard, and built-in DVD drive in a notebook that's less than an inch thin and right about 3 pounds, give or take 2 ounces.

The Macbook Air has no DVD drive. The 12.1" X-series notebooks have no DVD drive and are only 1024x768.

Re:Complaints:

[internetcommie]

Must purchase an OEM copy of either XP or Vista. Other than that, I see no advantage to the Macbook Air over the X300.
In fact, if I could get one with Linux I would probably already have owned a Thinkpad X-series. They look like a good replacement for my 12" Powerbook.

Re:Complaints:

[The Redster!]

"64GB should be enough for anybody."

Re:Complaints:

[mczak]

I'm sorry, but for the applications these laptops are going to be serving, 64GB of internal storage should be plenty.

Agreed. And if not, the HD in the MacBook Air doesn't really make a difference. If you think 64GB is paltry and not enough, 80GB probably won't be enough neither. The use of a traditional harddisk in the Air is purely a cost-cutting measure (and a quite effective one...). (Certainly 1.8 inch harddisks with more capacity (at least 160GB) exist - not sure if they'd fit into the Air, maybe their height is too large.)

Re:Complaints:

[petehead]

My thoughts as well. I survived just fine on a 40GB hard disk until it died. Sure, I couldn't store mass amounts of mp3 and movies but I'm not looking to do that with a laptop. And I definitely wouldn't be willing to downgrade the performance by forgoing the SSD in order to get more storage for a bunch of crap.

Re:Complaints:

[Alomex]

Actually, the X61 has as an option SXGA+ TFT with 1400×1050 resolution.

Interesting Specimen

[v(*_*)vvvv]

I understand its place in the Apple product line, but in general there have been smaller and lighter notebooks on the market for a long time. For its weight, Air doesn't even have an internal DVD drive.

Here is a notebook from 2004 that is only 0.07 inches thicker than MacBook Air, and that is only at the hinge. The rest of the notebook is only 0.39 inches thick:
http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/PCG-X505CP/parts.html

These guys are kicking themselves in the head right now... If only they flattened the hinge!! (I am sure they could've)

Re:Interesting Specimen

[Shados]

THERE WE GO! My boss (we're a .NET development firm, yet he's anti-microsoft and super pro-Apple... not into Linux either btw) keeps raving about how Apple does everything first (which it sometimes does, but the things he rave about are never anywhere close to new), and this was one I couldn't find a comeback for, even though I KNEW i had seen something like this before...

Well, now I do.

Re:Interesting Specimen

[tiny-e]

I wouldn't piss on a Sony laptop -if it were on fire. Especially after they made an attempt to rootkit your system.

Re:Interesting Specimen

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that thing looks like a total piece of shit. Keyboard against the front edge instead of back by the hinge? 1989 called, they want their laptop design back.

And the lightweight Sonys I have seen with similar designs have a cylindrical battery that fits inside that hinge, so making the hinge smaller would mean making a smaller battery, which would mean lower battery life.

Re:Interesting Specimen

[v(*_*)vvvv]

you mean... making a flatter battery.

so making the hinge smaller would mean making a smaller battery

Re:Interesting Specimen

[mr_matticus]

It was also $3500 ($3999 with the carbon fiber, which is the one reviewed and may have an impact on size). Even factoring in the relative difference between its 1GHz processor, 20GB hard drive and 512MB (given the 3-year old market), the price is not even close to the same ballpark.

For simple comparison, the high-end 17" PowerBook at that time was $2799, and was viewed of course by many as a tremendously expensive machine. This little computer outpriced it by 25%. Today's MacBook Air is cheaper by an even greater margin in comparison.

It has a 10" LCD, no touchpad, and no wifi built-in. It does not have an optical drive. Battery life is two hours less. On the whole, it is no thinner than the MacBook Air (in fact, it has a nearly identical cross-sectional area, though it would seem that the MBA does in fact retain the "thin" advantage, but just barely). So certainly, if you want to pay hundreds of dollars more for a smaller screen, same dongle situation, and much worse battery life, you could do that.

Re:Interesting Specimen

[v(*_*)vvvv]

Sony's notebook was a statement product. It wasn't very practical, but they did it anyway, which is why it is noteworthy.

it is no thinner than the MacBook Air It is .39 inches thick!!! Look at the diagram. Only the hinge is thick. The entire notebook is about half the thickness of the MacBook Air. It's about half the weight, and it must be half in volume as well. Excalty, it is ridiculous.

With that said, at the time, I got myself a Muramasa, which was Sharp's thin notebook. It had a 12" screen, full keyboard, a touchpad, and even a cradle that would charge it and transform it into an external hdd. I paid about 900 dollars. This first came out in 2001. Again, it is thinner than Air except for around the battery.

http://www.sharp.co.jp/products/pcmt1c/

What a beauty. I chose Sony in my original post because it was more interesting.

I am sure Air is a great notebook. The problem I have is with those who believe Apple is always the first to break new ground or innovate. That is just what Apple wants you to believe.

There is a good reason why the iPhone isn't out in Japan. Phone's there have been "that good" for a long time now. Also their reaction to Air was more like "finally, sigh".

Not to say it is a bad notebook... I have no idea.

Re:Interesting Specimen

[mr_matticus]

No, it's not. Look at the diagram, indeed! It is .39 inches thick at the front. It is approximately .55" thick throughout the middle (the hinge is not double the thickness of the rest of the machine).

Further, the MBA is an average of a half-inch thick. Compare the profiles of the machine. The MBA starts out a hair thinner, and it tapers faster. The average depth of the MBA is approximately .51"--beating, again, by a hair, the Sony.

With that said, at the time, I got myself a Muramasa, which was Sharp's thin notebook. It had a 12" screen, full keyboard, a touchpad, and even a cradle that would charge it and transform it into an external hdd. I paid about 900 dollars. This first came out in 2001. In late 2004, the Muramasa was $1900, not 900. It was launched in mid-2004, which you reference by the same "at the time" comment as the Sony, and not in 2001. It is also not thinner than the MBA, have a constant depth of 0.65" throughout, except for the thicker portions near the rear, hitting 19.4mm (again, a hair thicker than the MBA).

It makes significant tradeoffs itself--namely with a weak CPU, 2.5 hour battery life, and 64K color TFT. It also, interestingly enough, comes with a sealed-in battery as well.

The problem I have is with those who believe Apple is always the first to break new ground or innovate. I don't believe anyone said Apple was always first. You'd be more credible if you didn't overstate your case dramatically, while simultaneously comparing the thinnest measures of your chosen PC with the thickest measurement of the MBA.

Yes, it is true that there have been other thin notebooks. No, there has never been a thinner machine with a display above 11" (again, the Sharp compromised with a 64K TFT). There has never been a thinner notebook at a lower price ($1799 vs. your best, the Sharp at $2171 ($1900 adjusted for inflation)). As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle between your hypothetical "Apple innovated first" and your argument. In many ways, it truly is a first. In some, it is an also-ran.

Better Value

[John Jamieson]

FTA - "The biggest downside: it costs much more"
should be rewritten - "the biggest downside: it is not available with a low cost hard disk"

Really, it is about the same price as the Air when configured the same, but the extra ports would be worth and additional $500 to me(and many others), so, I think it is a better value.

"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[TransEurope]

Really? What is sexy? Mature, young, fat, skinny, blond or brunette? Everyone has it's own preferences.

I don't like designer-gadgets. I fo myself like techy looking cyberpunky devices, full with intellingent functions made in high quality. For me is the x300 the sexy one, not the AirBook, which lacks a crude technical design, and much worse, functionality for an geek.

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. I bet you 'prefer' fat ugly women to all the more conventionally attractive ones too. I think its got something to do with those grapes.

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[TransEurope]

Incorrect. I prefer young (age 23-28) brunettes, skinny, small t*ts.

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[Anonymous Coward]

Just use "tits" here, everyone's read the word before. You cockwhore.

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[TransEurope]

I just wanted to respect the puritan american audience here around.

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck shit nigger nigger cunt nigger nigger piss muhammad kike spic nigger nigger bitch tits ass fuck linux nigger nigger jewboy jewnigger spacenigger wop wop

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[TransEurope]

There seems to be a reason that you're an Anonymous Coward.

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[dave562]

And a reason I don't browse at -1. I completely agree with you on the cyberpunk factor.

Re:"the X300 isn't as skinny or sexy as the Apple"

[j_sp_r]

Why is Linux in that list?

X40 is better

[Anonymous Coward]

The 13" is too wide, the x40 series is smaller on avg and lighter. The resolution is strange at 1440x900 or whatever, what is with these widescreens nowadays? And who needs a DVD drive, the only reason for it is to install Windows or your OS of choice (most Unices can be installed quicker over a network anyway). And at that price tag, I would go for the X61T which imo is the best laptop out htere period - full SXGA+ resolution on a 12.1" notebook.

Re:X40 is better

[Eunuchswear]

Uh, the reason to have a DVD drive is maybe to watch DVDs? You know, like on that boring airplane/train trip?

Linux Wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

Not joking here: Does it run linux?
I am mostly concerned about wireless and I can't find out who the manufacturer for the wireless card. I really don't like resorting to ndiswrapper each time to get wireless working. I heard the thinkpads in general have good linux wireless support but the specs (at least the ones leaked a few weeks ago) doesn't seem to confirm it.

Apple != Orange

[bidule]

Except here orange isn't IBM but solid state drive.

So it will start at between $2,500 and $2,800-up to $1,000 more than the Apple's base price-and will be limited to a paltry 64 gigabytes of storage. ... which are the same defects as the SSD-Air.

Mossberg here really shows us here what it takes to be an anal-ist. This kind of trollism is just as bad from the Mac bashers or fanbois. It really takes a double-dose of style-over-substance to pick the non-wallet-gulping version of the MacBook Air. If anyone here is thinking of buying the AirBook, they are certainly thinking about the solid-state version.

That word does not mean what you think it means

[DragonHawk]

And, well looky there, you can configure the machine to include those features.

I think you mean "you can configure the box the machine ships in to include those features". Because all those devices are external to the machine.

Generally speaking, it's safe to assume that anyone wanting a super-mobile computer like an Air or this ThinkPad doesn't want to have wires and dongles they have to carry in their bag and/or hanging off the computer. I know with the Dell's we buy at work, the fact that the Latitude D400 series super-mobile only has an external optical drive is often a deal-breaker for the users. They'd rather a bigger/heavier unit that includes everything in one piece.

Re:That word does not mean what you think it means

[Anonymous Coward]

Close, but even worse...

I've received a shipment of a MacBook Air along with the external DVD drive and USB Ethernet dongle.

The DVD drive and USB Ethernet dongle come in a separate box.

Re:That word does not mean what you think it means

[kikta]

No, it's not safe to assume that at all. I do not want an installed optical drive in my ultra-portable. And I know I am not alone, so your assumption is false. I want the smallest, lightest laptop that I can reasonably use.

There is no good reason for me to need an optical drive away from home. Do you travel about the country (or even your town) randomly installing software at each stop? No? Me either.

If I need a piece of your data, I have a thumb drive and I bet you do too. If I really need to use an optical disk while roaming, then it sounds like I am in the 5 lbs sub-notebook market (MacBook), and not the 3 lbs ultra-portable market (Air).

PNARD

[Anonymous Coward]

anorexia dong

Good luck getting drivers

[Vidar Leathershod]

It's become a pain in the rear to find proper drivers for W2K, I dunno, maybe Lenovo provides 2K drivers for their ultra-portables. I can't be bothered to look. But for most vendors, no drivers exist and the XP drivers either don't install or don't work properly.

Paltry storage?

[polaris20]

I know in this day of 250GB laptop drives people think they need all that space, but come on, "paltry"? With a modest iTunes directory, photos, documents, a couple small VM's, I'm at 33GB used out of my 200GB 7.2K drive. A 64GB drive would be fine for a lot of people, especially the target audience of this laptop. Anyone that's actually an intelligent user (rofl) is moving their stuff over to a RAID equipped server or NAS anyway.

not surprising

[fermion]

Equivalent non apple hardware is often more expensive, at least at the retail price. The idea that all Apple hardware has a 25% tax has not been true for quite some time. Even 10 years ago one could buy an Apple laptop for 1K. Even now, the differences often results from instant rebates.

Last summer I priced an HP laptop and Apple laptop. I needed a very light, yet powerful, machine, so I went with a 15" pro machine on both sides. Depending on what considered equivalent, the HP machine was 500-1000 more. It is anecdotal, but still a data point. The point is that Apple has gotten very efficient, and regular PC OEMs have a very hard time competing with them on the price/quality ratio. About the only thing apple does not have is the competitive $500 headless laptop. The Mac Mini is a joke, and the iMacs are over priced if one does not really need a fancy monitor.

Re:not surprising

[Shados]

I can see how depending on your needs, an Apple lap-top can be cheaper...but 500-1000 more on the HP side? There must have been one hell of a significant difference in the model you picked or something. Thats like a FEW times more than the Alienware markup vs "build from spare parts" price on desktops...

Only thing I can think of is you picked a "business" machine, which doesn't differ so much in hardware as it does in support options, those tend to fetch a decent bit more for no hardware reasons...but man... even 500$ more sounds insane to me.

Re:not surprising

[LynnwoodRooster]

OK, something's not adding up...

New Apple MacBook Pro: $1999 base price for a 2.2 GHz CoreDuo, 2 GB RAM, 120 GB HDD, DVD burner, 15" widescreen, no accessories or extra software.

New Dell Vostro: $1924 when loaded with 2.2 GHz CoreDuo, 2 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD, DVD burner, 15.4" widescreen, nVidia 8600 video card, Windows XP, Office Pro 2007, 2 MP video camera, bluetooth, 802.11n, Verizon EVDO modem, 3-in-1 card reader, 4 USB ports.

Size? Apple is 2.6cm x 35.7cm x 24.3cm and 2.5 kg. The Dell is is 3.6cm x 35.6cm x 26.5cm, and weighs 2.8 kg. Dell is a hair thicker and a touch deeper, and a bit heavier.

And has broadband connectivity nation-wide (Verizon EVDO), full Office suite, more peripherals, and is $75 cheaper.

It doesn't have a glowing "Apple" logo on the cover, though...

Apple's are well-designed, nice looking pieces of gear. But they are - and always will be - more expensive than similar class PCs simply because of the economy of scale.

Re:not surprising

[Lost Engineer]

Yeah knock Windows and Office off there and you'll save a bundle more. Do they even offer Macs without the OS?

Re:not surprising

[NMerriam]

Apple's are well-designed, nice looking pieces of gear. But they are - and always will be - more expensive than similar class PCs simply because of the economy of scale.

I don't disagree with anything else you said, but did want to point out that if anything the economy of scale favors Apple. They're the number three computer manufacturer these days, and I probably creeping up on being number two in the laptop arena. And they have far, far fewer models that don't change nearly as often as Windows OEM manufacturers, so their sales (and purchases) aren't broken up among 150 different hardware configurations. Granted, of course manufacturers negotiate their volume contracts for multiple parts at once, but that's always going to be less financially advantageous than buying a huge volume of a single part.

I would suspect that the base model Macbook is probably the best selling laptop model ever made by any company. If Apple wanted to, they could undercut anyone else's comparable laptop models without losing money, but they aren't interested in being the "low cost" option even when they can be.

Re:not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Even now, the differences often results from instant rebates.
after a 339 instant rebate.

Honestly, on this model the Apple is about $300 more expensive for the closest comparable Dell. There are difference, like shared memory on the Dell, backlit keyboard on the Mac, etc. Then there is the fact that the vostro is probably more comparable to the 13" macbook. When comparing high end to high end, like an M2300 to a MacBook Pro, the difference disappears before rebate, but you do get a slightly larger screen on the Dell. On the top of the line models, with the 17" screen, the Dell may be cheaper by may 10%. Of course one reason is that Dell weighs at least 25% more.

As always, it boils down to paying what you want for what you want. Some people want the bells and whistles like MS Windows, and all the options that the interminable Dell checkout web page provides. Others just want a computer.

We also know that economies of scale have nothing to do with it. Kickbacks from MS, accepting lower quality components, and always building with cheapest components, is why the cheap PC is cheap. HP/Compaq does not always play the cheap game, so one can sometimes get quality kit from them. IBM definitely is willing to sell expensive kit. The fact that Dell sells the cheapest junk on the planet that is actually marginally reliable does not make it the poster child for quality comparisons.

Thin matters only to a subset of professionals

[Saint Fnordius]

Thin is in, but mostly only with those who do a lot of travelling. Reporters, sales reps and others who are often on the road feel that every ounce matters, and a laptop you can place in your briefcase with your papers and books counts for a lot among these people.

I feel Lenovo and Apple are aiming to two different sorts of professional users. Apple is geared more towards the writers and mobile creatives, and the workflow the MacBook Air is supposed to fit into is one where the user has a larger "mothership" computer that he can sync with, or already works in a MacBook-friendly environment. The Lenovo looks and feels more like a device that tries to be as light as possible but still be a "full-featured" notebook computer.

So what is the difference between the two? Apple's notebook looks and feels like it was designed around a task, a need, and Lenovo's laptop looks more like it was designed around the tech specs.

Re:Thin matters only to a subset of professionals

[gad_zuki!]

>Apple's notebook looks and feels like it was designed around a task, a need, and Lenovo's laptop looks more like it was designed around the tech specs.

What 'task' exactly? I use OSX all the time and its just a friggin OS. It runs programs. Programs that are not very different from programs on any modern GUI based system.

The idea that the Apple universe is full of sexy creative types who are above technical needs and that the Apple software magically fulfulls them is marketing bullshit.

Every person I've talked to (including sexy creative types) think no DVD drive and only USB port is a deal killer. This is just a luxury apple good that grows the brand and spreads their marketing. Its good for their image. It if was more practical than it would 'feel' like a dell. Istead its all design goodness for people with more money than sense.

Re:Thin matters only to a subset of professionals

[DJCacophony]

Briefcase? Any mac user who owns a macbook air isn't going to keep it in a briefcase. They're going to carry it around in a manila envelope so they can show all their friends how thin it is and how cool it makes them by association.

Re:Thin matters only to a subset of professionals

[Nicolay77]

Every person I've talked to (including sexy creative types) think no DVD drive and only USB port is a deal killer.

I totally agree with you in that respect. But I also have to add: Every MacBook (Pro) user I have talked to about the issue, can only count one or two times they have used the DVD in their laptops. And no one has needed more than one USB port either.

So this is really a very subjective issue.

I have to add a disclaimer: In this country if somebody sees a movie in his/her laptop, 99% of the time it has been downloaded instead of rented.

Re:Thin matters only to a subset of professionals

[Draek]

So what is the difference between the two? Apple's notebook looks and feels like it was designed around a task, a need, and Lenovo's laptop looks more like it was designed around the tech specs.

Or to put it another way, the Air is a gadget, the Thinkpad is a computer.

Or maybe we could try not to be so fanboyish about it, and say that Apple tries to put as many features as possible on an ultra-thin laptop, and Lenovo tries to make a full-featured laptop that's as thin as possible, and the relative importance of both criteria is what eventually determines which one appears better to whom.

paltry 64 gigabytes?

[djfake]

"paltry 64 gigabytes" ? Maybe for a desktop, but a cutting edge (sic) notebook with relatively new technology (SSHD)? I think Walt's reaching for a negative here... What about the Warranty? IBM usually includes three (3) years on these things, while Apple charges for "Applecare" beyond one year.

Too tiny

[NineNine]

I find it hard to believe that virtually nobody thinks that laptops are getting TOO small and flimsy. I guess that computer users are getting progressively weaker, in that every ounce saved is touted as a miracle. I dunno. I guess that I think that somebody who thinks that a 5-10 lb laptop is too heavy to carry around all day has some more serious problems, namely extremely poor physical health!

Re:Too tiny

[thenerdgod]

As I said above, I have an X61 tablet. Now I know that you're trolling, but I can't resist:

1. I can't speak to the Air, but the thinkpads are anything but 'flimsy'. My old vaio felt like a sodden pizza box compared to the Thinkpad. It simply doesn't flex.
2. Yes it's a bit wee, but used as a tablet, it's perfectly sized. Which brings us to:
3. If you want to hold a 10lb box in one arm as you draw with the other, you're insane. Or governor of California.

Re:Too tiny

[DogDude]

I would suggest that if you think it takes a bodybuilder to hold a 10 lb box, then perhaps you should visit both a doctor and a gym. That's pretty sad.

Re:Too tiny

[Nicolay77]

After reading your comment I just went to my basement, picked up a 10lb disk, and held it in my hand pretending to draw in it.

I can really see why after about 3 minutes it could be uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable.

Now, 5lb, it really felt like nothing. I can see myself holding it for hours.

Re:apple fanbois

[bhtooefr]

DISCLAIMER: There may actually be two or three posts that are neutral in this thread.

(Disclaimer Pt. 2: I'm typing this on an iBook G4, which is rapidly becoming my main machine.)

(Disclaimer Pt. 3: I'm a bit of a ThinkPad fanboy. If I could only get OSx86 running on my ThinkPad X61 Tablet...)

Why do you want a DVD?

[gnutoo]

I might understand wanting blue ray but DVDs are no longer worth the weight. Software installs are rare and Thinkpads can boot off firewire. If you need to share information with the clueless, carry a GNU/Linux CD so you can use someone else's DVD to copy the information by network. If you really want to watch movies, you have figured out how to put them on more reasonable media already. I've got a much older Thinkpad subnotebook that does not have an optical drive. I've only missed it once or twice over the last three years. The reduction is weight and increase in battery life is something I felt every day.

Re:Why do you want a DVD?

[bkr1_2k]

I'm not saying there isn't a market for these computers, with or without a DVD drive, but unlike you most users want a DVD drive, for the simplicity of not needing another computer to share data, or a "spare" firewire/usb hard drive, or whatever. And, despite your assertion, most people don't carry movies around on "more reasonable media already". Sure, the trend is definitely moving that direction, but it's far from ubiquitous at this point. That said, looking ahead and leading the market isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Re:Why do you want a DVD?

[misleb]

I might understand wanting blue ray but DVDs are no longer worth the weight. Software installs are rare and Thinkpads can boot off firewire.

The THinkpads have firewire? Man, isn't that ironic. The MacBook Air doesn't have Firewire... which makes it that much less appealing. With the kind of storage you get on these little thing you really want firewire for decent external drive performance.

Seriously, I think Apple went just a little too far just to be able to claim they hve the thinnest notebook. Usually I like Apple stuff, but this time they've pretty much skipped function completely and went all "form."

-matthew

Re:apple fanbois

[Thwomp]

...who will blindly reject any argument that appears to be in favor... A.k.a. the Adam Savage school of reasoning: "I reject your reality and replace it with my own!"

Re:apple fanbois

[hjf]

the typo was corrected here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=453880&cid=22419064 stfu cunt :)

elegant and clean, but less enjoyable, design flaw

[Vspirit]

Having been a thinkpad addict because of the trackpoint,
I have had the 600e, the x23, and now the x61s.

The xseries, is thin already, not a problem.

my experience with x61s.
What I am more concerned about is the following:

1. heat = its warmer than the previous models.
      better cpu's, at the cost of heat.
      you can feel it frying your hand.
      and then you turn on the wifi.. oh boy.

2. noisy = the fans are louder than previous models

3. material = the previous chassis was graphite,
      much more pleasent. now its plastic.

4. buttons = 2 ekstra 'paging' buttons are implemented
      on both sides of the up arrow, and its easy to hit wrong.
      annoying.

I think the design has degraded.
maybe they wanted to save on material.
and the designers took the wrong road.

I don't know, I would buy the mac book
immideately if it had the trackpoint.

but I would also buy another thinkpad,
if they took a little more care about
their loyal thinkpad customers.

hopefully someone listens.

Paltry 64GB?

[acvh]

The only thing I have on my hard drive that takes up multiple gigabytes is music. I don't need all that music on a laptop, that's why God (Steve?) made iPods.

I use a laptop for working away from my desktop. All of my applications and data fit easily into 64GB, with room to spare.

Re:Paltry 64GB?

[justinlee37]

The only thing I have on my hard drive that takes up multiple gigabytes is music

Speak for yourself, I have a 300gb drive that's nearly filled with movies and games.

It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[BrunoUsesBBEdit]

Despite all the hate levied on Apple and complaints of their hardware being too expensive, it's hard to find a better price on EQUIVALENT hardware. I have issued this challenge many times before and have rarely seen it accepted. And the response is always arguable at best.

Posts links to an Apple computer and a lower priced name brand machine with equal or better specs including processor cache and bus speed.

I've gone into detail on this before, but in short Apple only sells the latest technology. For each product grade they have 3 offerings. You see cheap Dell's because they continue to sell 5+ year old technology. If you want to save money on dated Apple technology hit a reseller like Small Dog.

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[hibiki_r]

Apple's prices make sense at launch. Look at the cheapest MacBook: It's not changed specs or price in over a year! it was well priced back then. Today, not so much.

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[The Second Horseman]

The discounts aren't as good. If you're an educational institution, you can usually negotiate an equivalent machine from Lenovo (or IBM in the past) for substantially less (hundreds of dollars) than you can from Apple, including warranty cost. But that's not a "public" sale price. Apple's more on the "standard discount" side of things - they don't even like discounting for volume. Also, Thinkpad Protection kicks the Apple warranty's rear. Four years, accidental damage (including screen), and it's an international warranty, so you can get the thing fixed overseas. Great for a student on a semester abroad.

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[Jeffrey Baker]

Pretty much everything in your post is wrong. Apple rarely sells "the latest technology." They were 14 months behind everybody else introducing quad core processors in the XServe. They stuck with the obsolete PowerPC G4 until the bitter end. They have never offered the fastest video cards from ATI and NVidia in the Mac Pro. And, in general, their equipment is more expensive than the competition.

Example: XServe Dual Xeon E5440, 4GB, 80GB: $3,999. PowerEdge 1950 III Dual Xeon E5440, 4GB, 80GB: $3,137. You save 22% at Dell.

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[Jeffrey Baker]

I love following up to myself. Apple MacBook Pro 2.2GHz 2GB NVidia 128MB 120GB 8x Superdrive 802.11a/b/g/n: $1999 ThinkPad T61 2.2GHz 2GB NVidia 128MB 120GB 8x Superdrive 802.11a/b/g/n: $1358 At Lenovo, you save 32%.

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[BrunoUsesBBEdit]

I'll agree with you that the XServe has alway been a weird niche.

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[LynnwoodRooster]

The entry Dell MacBook Pro is $1999.

You can order a new Dell Vostro with better peripherals, same processor/RAM, bigger screen, more HDD, full Office 2007, and throw in a Verizon EV-DO broadband modem and STILL come out nearly $100 less than the Apple (yes, I know about OpenOffice but try to live in the business world without the ability to read AND write MS Office apps and you'll find living quite hard - or we can drop the Dell price by $329 and drop MS Office to "make it equivalent").

Or get a Fujitsu A6110 with the 15.4" wide screen. Yes, only a 1.83 GHz Core 2 Duo, but with 3 GB of RAM, 200 GB HD, and all the other goodies (including Office Pro 2007) for $240 less than the MacBook Pro.

Or a Lenovo T61 with the same processor, RAM, HDD, display as the MacBook Pro, but adds Office 2007 and enough savings for a round trip ticket to Las Vegas.

Or the same thing from HP... Or Toshiba...

Apple's look nice, and have a "coolness" factor to them when you open them up at your local Starbucks. But in terms of value or components versus price? They come up short, every time (note that ALL the PC alternatives above included Office Pro 2007, which the MacBook Pro doesn't; drop that SW and drop the prices by $300 to $500).

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[BrunoUsesBBEdit]

Sorry but most people are not able to judge "same processor". You have to compare CPU Cache and bus speed. Without providing links you can't prove anything.

When I worked at Yahoo! I helped a coworker assemble a "white box" machine from NewEgg and he still couldn't get it below the price of the PowerMac G5 at the time. He really wanted to use some Linux video & photo software so I think he chose to wait it out. But I know that he was shocked at how hard it is to get hardware with more than big GHz going for it.

When I worked for Apple I used to regularly give people the numbers from the machine they wanted and tell them that if they could find it cheaper elsewhere let me know. No one ever did (let me know), but many of them ended up buying the Apple.

However, I haven't bought hardware since 1997. (Except for my MythTV and I went for lower power, quite hardware.) My hardware is always given to me by my employers/consulting gigs.

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[LynnwoodRooster]

So never mind that I spec'd things out, because YOU made an assertion and YOU didn't want to go and look, YOUR assertion still holds up...

Apple MacBook Pro, entry model at $1999 has a 2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo, 4 MB shared cache, 800 MHz FSB.

Dell Vostro LOADED with more peripherals AND software AND is $75 less uses a 2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo, 4 MB shared cache, 800 MHz FSB.

Face it, Apple computers carry a PREMIUM price for nothing else than style and the name. If the style matters to you, so be it. But to say that Apple's are cheaper based upon hardware specs is demonstrably false. Take a quick look at the Dell, Fujitsu, or Lenovo pages to see what hardware REALLY costs... Remember, drop the price of Office 2007 and you have comparable - OR BETTER - hardware for 75% the cost of the Apple option.

Of course, you used to work at Apple, so you're probably a bit biased...

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[toddestan]

Your whole premise is a fallacy. Naturally, the Mac is the best at being a Mac, so making the PC as close as possible to the Mac will drive the price up. If you start with a PC configuration, and try to find the equilivent Mac, you'll almost always find that the Mac is more expensive. Since there is a lot more customization and configurability in the PC world, that means that the typical computer buyer is able to save more money by buying only what they want in a PC rather than buying on of Apple's package deals. The only time that the Mac is not expensive is when you happen to want something that is very close to what Apple happens to offer.

And Apple only selling the latest technology? Is that why the iMacs come with yesterday's video cards, the $2500 Mac Pro is underspec'd in ram, and the Mac Mini's specs read like something from 2006?

Re:It's hard to beat the price of Apple hardware.

[BrunoUsesBBEdit]

I'm just saying that most people don't understand why the following 3 processors are different.

1. Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail
2. Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail
3. Intel Xeon 5160 Woodcrest 3.0GHz 4M shared L2 Cache Socket 771 80W Dual-Core 2U Passive Processor - Retail

Since you didn't give links I had to repeat your research. You can save your breath and inarguably prove your point by saying, "Look at these two links."

I used to work for Apple but I do not drink the Kool-Aid. http://www.linuxactionshow.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1773

Is it still indestructible?

[mcvos]

Nothing is more beautiful in my eyes than a machine which does it's job well day after day. It's simple, it's rugged, it's the best laptop series that was ever produced. You bring up a good point: is this ultra-thin ThinkPad still as rugged and indestructible as its lumpier relatives?

They're too big AND too small

[argent]

My old Libretto was a better size than any of these "thin" laptops. Even my Macbook Pro is really thinner than it should be, and has critically compromised cooling and keyboard quality to shave a quarter of an inch that I don't need saved off the thickness, and yet where it matters to me... the space it takes up on the desk (or lap, or airline tray-table)... all these devices are every bit as big as my Thinkpad T23 was.

Extreme thinness in laptops is a gimmick, and I wouldn't touch a laptop that's as compromised as these are for half the price.

Re:They're too big AND too small

[Constantine XVI]

Sounds like you need to take a look at the Asus EEE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_Eee) if you haven't already

Re:They're too big AND too small

[argent]

The EeePC sacrifices too much to thinness as well. Not to mention price.

It's possible that if it had been out a couple of years ago I'd have bought one, but probably not. Compared to the EeePC 8G, I'd rather spend a bit more and get a fatter computer if that's what it took to get a sub-notebook that had the features I need (and had in the Libretto):

* Hard drive, user replaceable (and preferably as easily swapped as in the Libretto).
* Larger battery, hot-swappable, 5 hours battery life.
* Expansion slot. This was PCMCIA in the Libretto, CF or ExpressCard would be more likely now.

And given that this is TEN YEARS later... a higher resolution screen. It looks like there might even be room for a 9" screen in the form factor of the EeePC.

I might be satisfied with the 8G *if* it had a couple of CF or even SD slots (if one could take an SDIO card), and a larger swappable battery. I wouldn't accept a PDA that didn't have an expansion slot of some kind, let alone a notebook, and I *do* need something that can run long enough to last a half-day meeting.

Let's review

[gelfling]

It's heavier and bigger. It costs more and it wraps up more features whether you like them or not. That's IBM/Lenovo in spades.

Why is a removable battery such a big deal? It's really only the corporate owners who keep laptops for 4 years or more; THEN a replaceable battery is a big deal. But ordinary users are more likely to replace (or break) their machines in 4 years. Though to be fair, this is actually the complaint I have with the iTouch: either make the battery replaceable OR make the case waterproof. Not NEITHER, please.

A problem I have with IBM/Lenovo (And this post is being written on a corporate owned 4 year old T40) is that they have an obsessive need to crank out hundreds of subvariant models. And as a result there's an endless flood of patches, fixes, firmware updates, BIOS updates and on and on and on. Moreover IBM/Lenovo seems to have a poor track record with ALL of their X model TP's - they announce them to great fanfare and then for no clear reason discontinue them soon thereafter. The X21 was a nice albeit low powered micro laptop that IBM rolled out then, since corporate America didn't buy it, they pulled the plug and left that segment of the market. Will this happen again? Or will it become yet another orphan?

Clearly - since this is a THINKPAD brand and NOT a Lenovo brand the intended market is corporate America, AND given the price it's going to be targeted at executives who want bragging rights in business class. People who user their machines as glorified Blackberries and DVD players.

Ergo, the built in DVD player.

So even though I've used nothing but Thinkpads since 1996, I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed by this one.

Re:Let's review

[Poorcku]

well i am not going to change my battery every 4 years. i change it after 2-3 hours on a long journey. this is why it is a big deal. And as for the patches thingy, clearly you haven't used System Update on your thinkpad. It updates based on your specific model.

Re:Let's review

[Anonymous Coward]

pretty much everything in th GP screams that he has extremely limited experience with thinkpads. i scoffed at it and moved on.

Re:Let's review

[gelfling]

Yes I have tried and failed to use Lenovo System update often. Typically SU updates itself and then fails to update anything it's intended to be used for.

Re:Let's review

[jaavaaguru]

Why is a removable battery such a big deal?

So you can swap to a second fully charged batter after the first one runs flat. This is useful during an 8 hour flight where there are no power outlets available.

Re:Let's review

[Jeffrey Baker]

Not sure what you're getting at with the X series. The X21 was a great computer and so was the X40. I still use an X40 to this day, even though I also have an X61, which is _also_ a great computer. In fact I'd put it up against the Macbook Air any day. It's smaller, lighter, and much more functional than the Macbook Air. That said, I have to agree with you on the X300. What's the point? I've never complained about not having a DVD drive on my Thinkpad X. And I've certainly never caught myself wishing it were wider and heavier.

Re:Let's review

[Etyenne]

But ordinary users are more likely to replace (or break) their machines in 4 years.

A Thinkpad won't break in 4 years. It is the entire point of Thinkpads.

Re:Let's review

[Anonymous Coward]

No more useful than one of these (and probably less so since the batteries for this thing are unlikely to hold 130WH).

Re:Let's review

[gelfling]

Except when it does. Anyone who ever owned a 760, 765, 770, 600, T41 or a T61 will attest to that. They were/are fragile, some broke when you hold them by the keyboard, two of my 760's actually caught on fire. We're seeing a huge number of in the field failures with T61's now. I wouldn't take one if they offered to swap out my T40 for one, tomorrow.

Overall: illusion

[wild_berry]

Apple really max out the Reality Distortion Field with the Air. Steve Jobs' RDF genius.

There, fixed that for you.

Oh, no. Windows Keys.

[gnutoo]

OK, I suppose their marketing people know what they are doing. At least they still have a trackpoint. If the trackpad does multitouch, it will be worth having too. One thing that stands out is the Windows keys cluttering up the bottom key row. I don't care how many people want it, on a subnotebook no one will be able to hit it when all of the keys are crammed up like that. That's a real screw up they have been making for two or three years now.

If the DVD is removable, and everything really is, then it's not a big deal and these laptops will be nice additions to the IBM certified used site in a couple of years.

Intelligent, or rich?

[danaris]

Anyone that's actually an intelligent user (rofl) is moving their stuff over to a RAID equipped server or NAS anyway.

'Cause, y'know, everyone who's intelligent enough to know that a nice redundant storage system is a Good Idea has the money to blow on a separate server with a RAID array or a NAS, for their home.

Right. Why don't you call me when "intelligent" actually means "well-paid" in the significant majority of cases?

Dan Aris

Re:Intelligent, or rich?

[polaris20]

Thinkpads are business laptops, aimed at business users, who have servers and/or NAS devices at their business. But you already knew that. I don't know of too many home users with $3000 Thinkpads. Do you? Even if they don't have RAID or a NAS, they can spend the $120 on a 500GB USB external drive for home use.

Re:Intelligent, or rich?

[danaris]

If it's for a business, then the business's admins will handle it, not the users you mentioned.

It may be a small distinction, but it certainly makes a difference when determining what you're talking about.

Dan Aris

Re:Intelligent, or rich?

[polaris20]

Do you work in the real world, or just go to school? Users at my business most definitely do take part in making sure their data is backed up from their laptops, though of course IT assists them when required. I do know what I am talking about. Not all users are as out of the loop as you assume.

Re:Intelligent, or rich?

[danaris]

Well, not all users are as in the loop as you assume.

The only people at the (small) company where I work who are remotely technical are IT. The majority of the users are of the type who can follow simple instructions and policies, as long as they don't interfere too much with The Way They've Always Done Things. There's plenty of the "real world" where users have little to no technical capability, and depend entirely on IT to keep things running.

In any case, it's the admins who decide to get a NAS or RAID, and have the power to purchase it for the users to back up to, whether or not the users are bright enough to know it's a good idea.

Dan Aris

Re:Intelligent, or rich?

[polaris20]

I've worked in IT for 6 years now. There hasn't been a time in this short career where a networked hard drive system of some sort wasn't available to users, whether it be NAS or a simple $800 RAIDed Samba server. There also has never been a time where I've experienced a user naive enough to think that storing data only on a laptop is a good idea. Does IT facilitate the backup of the laptop data? Sure. I show them when they receive the laptop how to run a sync with their network share, so in the event of failure they can retrieve data. Do I manage every single laptop in a 1000 person company? No. I don't. I don't have the time to babysit or micro-manage the users or their laptops. There are some solutions available that back up data over the internet, and that are centrally managed, but then your talking $$$, and that's not something that's always easy to get approval for, when simple user diligence will do the trick for free. And once again, as it applies to this article, I will mention that even worst case scenario is to buy a $120 500GB USB drive to keep at home (or office with no server) and back up to that. Not A Big Deal. I've got at least 30 field guys who are never in the office, and when they get back from traveling to their home office, they dock the laptop and run a sync to the external HD. I'd hardly call that something highly technical needing the babysitting of IT.

I wouldn't want to type on anything else.

[delire]

Thankfully those that design the Thinkpads understood the importance of input and gave it steering priority over the design. Having used a variety of laptops over the years it would be very hard for me to choose anything other than a Thinkpad: I haven't used a keyboard which is as kind to my hands - an actual pleasure to use - as that of my T61.

I recently spent time working on a MacBook and soon felt my joints and wrists complaining, sharing a similar experience to this MacBook owner.

It's easy to create consistent, flat, sharp-edged, un-ergonomic laptops: make them as symmetrical as possible while removing features that bear any relation to the shape of peoples bodies and voila, you have a fantastically good looking object that was never meant to be typed on for extensive periods without strain.

Ok, Time to Talk MacBook Air...

[TheNetAvenger]

Ok, Time to Talk MacBook Air...

Yes it is cute, but it is very limited in speed and graphics.

1) People forget the Sony Laptops that have been around for almost 10 yearss, that are 'technically' smaller than the Mac Air.

2) The same people cheering the Mac Air, are the same people here that dumped about the UMPC concept of a moving between a laptop and a PDA. And 13" with tiny keyboard is NOT much differnt than the 10" screen with tiny keyboards, especially when the UMPC have full TabletPC capabilities so you can just use a pen.

So if we are going to see all the 'compare' to air articles, then we need to go back and compare Air to all the Sony's and the UMPCs as well.

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/01/macbook-air-rel.html

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/12/fanboy-reviewer-problems

For people in the Mac only world, the MacBook Air is great, but for people in the 'rest' of the computer industry, it is nothing new or unique.

Re:Ok, Time to Talk MacBook Air...

[AshDog]

The Sony you are refering to WAS limited in speed and graphics. Almost to the point that you were spending $3500 on something that was unusable. The MBA uses a C2D chip, not even a ULV one. It features X3100 integrated graphics, which are the best thing besides a dedicated chip. The X505 was a PDA in terms of power. The MBA doesn't compare to a UMPC at all... It has a full size keyboard, a usable screen and C2D/2GB ram/X3100 graphics. iPhone and iTouch are apple's version of a UMPC, and they're going to explode one the SDK arrives and matures. Non replaceable battery is a feature in my eyes. If you plan on needing another battery for travel, just purchase an external battery that plugs in. They have a much better price/power ratio, you plug it in and don't have to switch out batteries, and having a non-removable battery increases the durability of the computer. If the battery fails and needs replacement, thats still very easy to do. The X300 is not nearly as thin as the MBA. Once again, the X300s thinnest point at the front is about the same as the Air's thickest at the back, and the air just tapers down to nearly nothing. These two products have vastly different thickness dimensions. That said, the X300 probably is more appealing to most because WiFi isn't ubiquitous yet. When it is, more people will understand why Apple chose this design.

Re:Ok, Time to Talk MacBook Air...

[TheNetAvenger]

Sony was an example of units from YEARS ago. Go look at several of the new models in the PC world, they are within 1-2mm of the thickness of the Airbook, have 2x faster processors, and have integraded Geforce 8600 with 256mb dedicated VRAM. They also have other 'features' like firewire, multiple output/input for audio video, and get this. STEREO speakers - 80s technology even...

The MacBook Air is a marketing can, and crap design with horrible perform. And when you 'tout' the 3100 Intel Graphic as good, you have lived in the Mac world way too long, when my 5 year old laptop outbenches the Intel 3100 in both business and 3D applications. But I guess graphics aren't important to Mac users, you buy PCs if you want graphical performance for things like AI/Photoshop/3D engineering/Video Creation, right?

The UMPC wsa a contrasted topic, just as I could have used WinCE, but UMPC is approaching PDA sizes and running the standard versions of the Windows OSes.

The iPhone and iTouch are NOT Apple's version of the UMPC, they are Apple's poor attempt at the Palm and Windows Pocket PC market, except you can get smaller devices that do more if you buy a Pocket PC, as it is running a full OS with open developer support. UMPCs are running FULL versions of XP and Vista, not a watered down OS, or a limited core OS. Buy Vista on the shelf and install on a UMPC. Try that on your iPodTouch....

sshd for data survival

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait a minute! I use sshd for data survival all the time, but I don't understand what it has to do with hardware, least of all $1000 hardware! :)

Forget the article

[fuocoZERO]

Skip down to the comments. By the 3rd or 4th comment, it turns into a flame war between Mac and Win fanboys. Pretty entertaining. When will people learn that comparing Macs and PCs really doesn't get you anywhere?

Re:Forget the article

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Skip down to the comments. By the 3rd or 4th comment, it turns into a flame war between Mac and Win fanboys.

Ummm.... but these days you can run Windows on a Mac and you can run Linux on either system as well. I could see a Windows versus OS X flame war or even a Apple hardware versus Lenovo hardware flame war. But how can you have a flame war between Macs and Windows users. What side are people running Windows on a Mac supposed to take?

I disagree, the PowerBook is beautiful.

[Anonymous Coward]

The iMacs were a fluke.

Support

[blintz]

I didn't see any mention of Support. You can get a nice AppleCare warranty extension, along with the helpful geniuses at the Apple Store retail locations. Try getting that kind of support with the ThinkPad...

Re:Support

[LynnwoodRooster]

Yes, AppleCare for $349 for 3 years where I can take the laptop to a store. Or with the Lenovo I can plop down the SAME $349 and 4 YEARS of next day ON SITE service, where they come to me. More convenience AND 33% longer coverage.

I guess you're right, you can't get the shorter duration and less convenient service of AppleCare...

Re:Support

[blintz]

Good Point about the onsite service, but according to this link, their phone support blows compared to Apple's: http://www.breakitdownblog.com/ibm-lenovo-thinkpad-support-is-unbelievably-bad/

Re:Support

[LynnwoodRooster]

I'll see your blog and raise you one.

Bottom line: Apple hardware IS more expensive for comparable PC systems, and their much-vaunted AppleCare is more expensive than comparable warranty/service agreements for PC vendors.

Apple has style, sure. But beyond that, it's really not a good value.

Is the pricing comparison fair?

[Tetrad_of_doom]

Is it really fair to compare the ThinkPad with a solid state drive to the Macbook Air with the standard hard drive? The equivalent MacAir is $3000. IBM has come up with a comparable product with better port design for $200 cheaper. All the reviews I've read for the MacAir say the solid state drive is worth the price.

I normally have this complaint when people compare PC prices to Mac prices. Yes, the cheapest PC is much cheaper than the cheapest Mac. The difference is the cheapest PC is a piece of crap; the cheapest Mac is a useful machine. If you upgrade the PC to have similar specs to the cheapest Mac, the price difference is minimal.

I'm still on old hardware

[FatSean]

2-way AthlonMP 2800+ old! I suppose when the budget allows for an upgrade I will have an OS decision to make.

m200 - Well built Toshiba

[j-stroy]

My Toshiba m200 tablet has been the best laptop of the many I've owned. At just over 4lbs with a nice 12" 1400x1050 screen. It has taken 4 years of everyday pro use with the only faults occurring in the power supply cable and the Hitachi hard drive after 2 years..

Used to be laptops were only high-end, but now there is this insidious split between expensive "student" laptops and cheap "pro" laptops. Once noble product lines are now polluted with lame cases and keyboards, etc.

So I disagree with your point re: Toshibas. I intend to upgrade to a nextgen tablet which includes all the goodness without the compromises the interim models make.. hate that low vertical res.. numbers less than 1000 remind me of the old days.

Re:m200 - Well built Toshiba

[Mister Whirly]

"12" 1400x1050

Jesus, that hurt my eyes just reading it. Can you actually read text and such on such a small screen at that high of a resolution?

what do you use for a laptop case?

[ILongForDarkness]

I'm just curious with these "super slim" laptops coming out, are there cases designed for them? If you have a laptop case meant for a normal sized laptop wouldn't the laptop bounce around a lot inside of the case? Wouldn't be good for the components and would be a pain if you where say biking with one of them. I know it sucks to bike with stuff sliding around in a bag too (say a pair of shoes in a napsack, it bounces around and throws off your rhythm. In my view there isn't really an arguement for super slim laptops. Light weight sure. Small in the other two dimensions sure (limited work space, cases can be the size of a purse or something). But thin? What does that accomplish? It might help save weight, but in and of itself I don't see what it does for you especially when they throw out components like DVD drives to make it thin. Why don't you just plastic coat a mother board and monitor and call it a computer?

Re:what do you use for a laptop case?

[Etyenne]

That's a bit of a problem. Which is why I prefer to use a neoprene sleeve on my subnotebooks, and toss it in plain standard backpack. But you need a sturdy laptop to do that, which is where the Thinkpads shine.

Will it ship with Windows?

[olddotter]

If they ship it with windows its really not a competitor to the Apple. Without a good OS, it is just a container for crappy content.

Re:Will it ship with Windows?

[mdwh2]

If they ship it with OS X its really not a competitor to anything else. Without a good OS, it is just a container for crappy content.

IBM doesn't do the Thinkpad any more.

[Molochi]

Lenovo bought the right to manufacture notebooks under the Thinkpad TM from IBM. Thinkpads were only allowed to continue bearing the IBM logo for a year or so after the purchase. I was under the impression that when the IBM logo went byebye so did any design/mfg support by IBM.

Either way the T61 is a very nice buisness class notebook that I'd buy any day over a MBP.

the lenovo is for traveling business users

[snuf23]

"So what is the difference between the two? Apple's notebook looks and feels like it was designed around a task, a need, and Lenovo's laptop looks more like it was designed around the tech specs."

The smaller thinkpads are basically designed for traveling business executives. People who need a full powered laptop at the smallest size. The execs at my office either use small Thinkpads or small VAIOs. They don't want a MacBook Air they want a Windows machine with Outlook, Powerpoint and whatever business applications they are used to.

This computer is more comparable to a Macbook pro

[pizzach]

First of all, the thickness of this ThinkPad is ~.9 inches versus the MacBook Pro's 1 inch. The Macbook Air is ~.7 inches at it's thickest point. The Macbook Pro has the ports that people are complaining about missing in the Macbook Air.

I think if/when Apple finally releases a 13" Macbook Pro, we'll actually have two similar things to compare. It's been one of the gaping holes in their product linup since the end of the Powerbook line.

Lenovos Are Ugly Though...

[barl0w2]

They might be tough, but I've always thought that IBM/Lenovo laptops are ugly. Putting aesthetics aside more ports for the same weight is great. Apple might be the innovator of the Air-type, but the Lenovo and others won't be the last we'll see. I actually think the Sony Sub-notebook is a better machine and buy.

My brother-in-law got a MBA for Valentines Day, so I've had some hands-on time w/it: http://flickr.com/photos/barl0w/

Not all trackpads are the same

[rsborg]

Apple's notebooks are also lacking a trackpoint-like mouse. I personally can't stand touchpads, even the ones on Apple's notebooks. The trackpoint is a much better input device when done right, and the ones on the Thinkpads work quite well.

I used to have a very similar opinion. However, with my macbook (late 2k6), the trackpad is very impressive. Acceleration is good, accuracy is very good, and the scrolling and right-click options are very intuitive and useful.

Compare/contrast that with a friend's sony vaio I borrowed for a while. The trackpad was horrible and counterprodtive. I even lost data due to missed input. I blame Sony pretty squarely for this (probably the trackpad quality or software integration), but still... it made the point for me: not all trackpads are created equal.

Basically, when I switched from my old thinkpad to the macbook, I was expecting to use an external mouse a lot. Now I take the macbook to presentations and don't take my bluetooth mouse with me. the trackpad is that good.

I even prefer it to my new work Thinkpad's trackpoint. It's a 2007 laptop, and it STILL has issues with ghost movement (rare, but happened during a preso, and distracted my audience). Dude, wtf... it's 15 year old technology, you figure it'd be mature by now.

Yes...

[Enrique1218]

but does it run Mac OS X? I just cannot be saddle with Linux and (shudder!) Windows Vista.

Re:Yes...

[mdwh2]

but does it run Mac OS X?

I dunno. Does the MacbookAir run BeOS? AmigaOS?

Re:Yes...

[Enrique1218]

I personally don't care. I really have no need for playing around with relics. My guess is no but that their real value- to give hobbyists a hobby.

Re:Yes...

[mdwh2]

I personally don't care. I really have no need for playing around with relics. My guess is no but that their real value- to give hobbyists a hobby.

Exactly, so you refute your own point. A ThinkPad, like any PC, does fine as it is. Needing a particular niche OS is only a requirement for giving hobbyists a hobby, and I personally don't care.

Re:Yes...

[Enrique1218]

Oh my dear friend,you have refuted nothing. You have never used Mac OS X, have you? BeOS and AmigoOS more analogous to OS/2 than OSX. They like OS/2 are interesting in that they are different but largely irrelevant today. OS X is definitely a good workhorse OS (you know- using it for actual WORK!). All the goodness of Unix with better usability than Windows. After years, Mac OS X runs just as well as it did when its first install. Analyzing data, typing in Office, writing routines in Matlab, use command line to access Linux server, drawing in Canvas... BeOS? Pfft... not even in the same ball park.

Why would you buy it

[lnxpilot]

So, it costs much more, it's less capable and is not made by a big brand company any more (IBM).
Yet, people are supposed to buy it because...???
That makes no sense.

Can it?

[hotfireball]

I am sure it runs Windows and probably Ubuntu Linux, which means from African: "I can not setup Debian". But can it run MacOS? :-)

Comparing Apples to Oranges

[hotfireball]

Guys, yes, Lenovo pad thing has more features, yes. But comparing Apple Air to Lenovo thing -- It is like comparing Lexus to Hyundai: anyone says Hyundai is better, because it has more features, more horsepower and thicker wheels?.. Then maybe you need russian tractor TR-40 then?.. -- it really has way more horsepower than BMW, incredible passability, world thickest caterpillar tracks and a hidden rocket launcher against potential yankee attack... In fact, those machines you can get much cheaper than decent BMW car. :-)

In my opinion, the core feature is MacOSX -- the best desktop OS ever with no very serious competitors these days. And slick light laptop is exactly where OSX fits. IBM is running Windows, it is heavier and your life style is not bound completely to WiFi, as it should be, but more to cables and plastic disks you are going to put into DVD drive. I personally do not remember when I use DVD drive last time, though I have 9 machines at home. :-)

Here you go: Ethernet should be WiFi, as it was designed in the initial idea (because it is Ethernet). And all things you should do with slick mobile device with fast WiFi. This is probably the best way how small movable gadgets should work, no matter Apples or Oranges.

Re: Moore's Aesthetic Law?

[fugue]

I've heard of planning on ditching your laptop after 4 years or so because a new one will be about 5 times faster. However, there's something beautiful in the notion that even if my old laptop is feeble-minded and geriatric, no matter how useless it is by modern standards, it's still pretty.

Perhaps it should consider a career in politics.

Did Dell miss the bus?

[torkus]

Dell has had the D420 (and now D430) latitude line around for a while now. 3LB weight, fits in an envelope like the apple. This isn't new, it's just a fancy commercial from apple. I've had a D420 for a year or so now.

Lenovo is just following along too. What's next, a big announcement when someone comes out with a 42" LCD TV to take on the 42" plasma market?

Re:Did Dell miss the bus?

[mgblst]

I have had the D420 for work, for the last year. It is ok, compared to the other dells I have seen around, they even seem to have spent some time on the design of it, but I always enjoy going back home to my IBM T42. There is simply no comparison. The keyboard is miles better, the T42 looks better even thought it is 3 years older. And oddly enough, even thought my D420 is dual core with more memory, isn't as snappy as my old T42.

Re:Did Dell miss the bus?

[torkus]

I've also owned a T43 (essentially the same as T42) and i agree. It's a great laptop. OFC it's going to be faster than the D420 as it's also significantly bigger and heavier, uses a 2.5" HDD and doesn't have a ULV proc.

I only gave up my T43 for a free D630. The D420 i have is still a nice ultra-portable. Maybe not the best, but my point was 3LB 13" screen laptops are nothing new. Or at least I think that was my pointin this post. 3PM friday = fried brain.

x300 is TWICE AS THICK !!!! as a macbook AIR

[Risto]

um

The two are not even in the same class of laptop!!
the thinnest edge of the X300 is about as thick as the thickest edge of the AIR

X300 is about twice as thick (18.6mm-23.4mm) as a MacBook Air (4.0mm-19.4mm)
average thickness(11.7mm vs 21mm)

if you STACKED TWO Macbook Air Laptops (19.4+4.0=23.4)
you would arrive at roughly the thickness of one X300 at (21mm average)

At the end of the day, this X300 laptop is somewhere between the Macbook Air
and the Macbook Pro for thickness (closer to the Macbook Pro, ... much closer at 25mm)

It's really unbelievable that these two laptops even get mentioned in the same breath.

Re:x300 is TWICE AS THICK !!!! as a macbook AIR

[Ruger]

Idiot.

The Air is .76", the X300 is .92".

You can't compare the skinny part of the Air...it means nothing. It was a nice design illusion by Apple, but it cost them functionality.

Quoting the blogs now are you?

[symbolset]

The macbook air looks really sweet with its ultrathin form factor. Speaking as a guy that struggles with a 30 pound carryon, that's a winner.

And Apple doesn't ship it with one OS to use and make you license a different OS for it you never intend to use, like the OEMs pushing "Blista" do.

OS-X has some sweet deployment options for the enterprise, too, like image broadcasting built right in.

That stupid pier hurts!

[Anonymous Coward]

And I think it is proof of how much Michael Dell hates his customers. Why in the hell would that moron decide to put a pier (word I prefer over post) is just plain asinine. About twice a week I nail the pier. It really sucks when trying to ride on a bus, a plane, or the subway while typing. Your hands always drive left or right just enough to hit the pier. The idiots that type by barely touching the keys don't have much of a problem with it, but the smart people that don't want carpel tunnel are put in a lot of pain by Michael Dell's intentional action.

Workflow versus process

[Saint Fnordius]

No offense taken. ;)

Why workflow? Well, because in a job like mine (web and print design), you work on sets of processes in a team. Pictures are developed by one, programming by another, writing and copy editing by a third, and so on. Lots of little processes that often mean having 4 or 5 apps open at the same time, and flipping back and forth, and having to keep the hand-offs in mind.

That's the real advantage of the Mac for many of us: it reduces the time spent in menus and dialog boxes. For a longer process, this savings of a few seconds may not seem important, but when you're doing it about once a minute, it all adds up. Even the Fitt's Law factor of whether the menu bar is on top of the screen or the window plays a role when you have to access formatting commands more often.

But ultimately, the term "workflow" is older than computers. It's all about the connection of processes, how the work moves from beginning to finished product. Assembly lines are static workflows, where the work flows in a channel. Jobs like mine are more fluid and open, with currents and eddies and so on.

But the biggest reason for "workflow"? It's a known term that's shorter than "interplay of individual tasks in the job". ;)

Re:elegant and clean, but less enjoyable, design f

[SpammersAreScum]

4. buttons = 2 ekstra 'paging' buttons are implemented on both sides of the up arrow, and its easy to hit wrong. annoying.

Glad you mentioned that. They're on my T42 as well, and while I've not had a problem with hitting them accidentally, they're a bit annoying simply because I have no idea what their point is! I have yet to find an app that actually does anything when I hit them.

In general, though, my work system has been some model of ThinkPad for 15 years now and I've been quite happy with them. Not only for all the reasons others have mentioned, but also for that middle mouse button. It's astonishing that other laptops don't have it.

Another huge difference

[MushMouth]

One is available today, with hardware prices today. The other will be available sometime with future specs at prices for those specs in the future. Think about it this way, do you think a 64GB SSD will still cost more than $1000 in 6 months?

Re:Another huge difference

[Ruger]

Idiot...RTFA.

"Lenovo plans on officially unveiling the X300 on Feb. 26."

Oops..open tag in the other one.

[mr_matticus]

It is .39 inches thick!!! Look at the diagram. Only the hinge is thick. The entire notebook is about half the thickness of the MacBook Air. No, it's not. Look at the diagram, indeed! It is .39 inches thick at the front. It is approximately .55" thick throughout the middle (the hinge is not double the thickness of the rest of the machine).

Further, the MBA is an average of a half-inch thick. Compare the profiles of the machines. The MBA starts out a hair thinner, and it tapers faster. The average depth of the MBA is approximately .51"--beating, again, by a hair, the Sony.

With that said, at the time, I got myself a Muramasa, which was Sharp's thin notebook. It had a 12" screen, full keyboard, a touchpad, and even a cradle that would charge it and transform it into an external hdd. I paid about 900 dollars. This first came out in 2001. In late 2004, the Muramasa was $1900, not 900. It was launched in mid-2004, which you reference by the same "at the time" comment as the Sony, and not in 2001. It is also not thinner than the MBA, have a constant depth of 0.65" throughout, except for the thicker portions near the rear, hitting 19.4mm (again, a hair thicker than the MBA).

It makes significant tradeoffs itself--namely with a weak CPU, 2.5 hour battery life, and 64K color TFT. It also, interestingly enough, comes with a sealed-in battery as well.

The problem I have is with those who believe Apple is always the first to break new ground or innovate. I don't believe anyone said Apple was always first. You'd be more credible if you didn't overstate your case dramatically, while simultaneously comparing the thinnest measures of your chosen PC with the thickest measurement of the MBA.

Yes, it is true that there have been other thin notebooks. No, there has never been a thinner machine with a display above 11" (again, the Sharp compromised with a 64K TFT). There has never been a thinner notebook at a lower price ($1799 vs. your best, the Sharp at $2171 ($1900 adjusted for inflation)). As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle between your hypothetical "Apple innovated first" and your argument. In many ways, it truly is a first. In some, it is an also-ran.

No, Damnit!

[kikta]

I'm not angry with you, but I am annoyed with this whole perception some people seem to have. That being the claim that most people want an optical drive in their ultra-light laptops.

Bullshit. People need to get their markets straight. The Air is NOT a sub-notebook. It is an ultra-portable. Meaning it has the bare-bones necessities in the lightest and smallest form factor possible this side of a PDA.

I have an IBM X40 and had a Sharp MM10 (until it died). Between the two, I've been using them for four or five years. Both weigh in under three pounds and neither has an optical drive. I have never missed it, save once or twice in all of that time. I have an external USB combo drive for when I need to do an OS install. They run Linux fine, they are really small and super-light - that's the point!

Now, I'm not claiming to represent the whole market by any means. And I am not defending the lack of a removable battery or only having one USB port on the Air. But the one criticism I cannot understand is the optical drive piece. If you want a small, relatively light notebook with an optical drive, get a five pound sub-notebook MacBook - not a three pound ultra-portable Air.

Understanding

[DragonHawk]

I want the smallest, lightest laptop that I can reasonably use. Righty. So, if your laptop has stuff hanging off it, does that make it small and light? If you have to drag wires and dongles around with it, does that help your goal? My "assumption" remark was about that mess, not about the presence or absence of an optical drive. And I'd lay odds it holds true for you as well. What I was taking exception to was the idea that just because one can order the external peripherals, that's the same as having them built-in.

There is no good reason for me to need an optical drive away from home. Good for you.

Do you travel about the country (or even your town) randomly installing software at each stop? I rarely use the optical drive for installation of software on any computer. (I work in a corporate IT environment, where most software is installed over the network -- even the OS.) I use the optical drive mainly for data interchange, and occasionally for generating install discs for other computers in the field.

The users at work use it for data interchange and watching DVD movies. As far as they're concerned, the whole point of them having a laptop with them on the airplane is to watch movies. Decadent, perhaps, but it's not my position to judge. And I'm pretty sure you need an optical drive to watch a movie on an optical disc. (If you're going to bring up ripping, please go back and read the "work" part again. Illegal activities are Not Allowed. (Whether ripping should be considered illegal is also irrelevant -- right now, it is. My employer is not in the business of fighting somebody else's legal battles.))

If I need a piece of your data, I have a thumb drive and I bet you do too. Thumb drives are great, but there's still a lot of optical disc usage going on, especially in US DoD circles, where they somehow see writable optical discs as different than writable USB flash drives. (I think that's bogus, too, but I don't make the rules.)

If I really need to use an optical disk while roaming, then it sounds like I am in the 5 lbs sub-notebook market (MacBook), and not the 3 lbs ultra-portable market (Air). Or perhaps you are in the 3.12 lbs ultra-portable-with-an-optical-drive market (this ThinkPad). Eh?

Re:Understanding

[kikta]

What I was taking exception to was the idea that just because one can order the external peripherals, that's the same as having them built-in. In that case, you didn't make your point very well. What you actually said was:

Generally speaking, it's safe to assume that anyone wanting a super-mobile computer like an Air or this ThinkPad doesn't want to have wires and dongles they have to carry in their bag and/or hanging off the computer. And my point was that I never carry the stupid thing away from home.

Good for you. Cute, but don't write [emphasis added]:

Generally speaking, it's safe to assume that anyone wanting a super-mobile computer And then act like the replyer (who falls under your generalization) is egotistical for giving you their opinion.

...I work in a corporate IT environment... Great, but not all ultra-portable users are corporate or business users. My ThinkPad X40 is strictly for personal use and I know I'm not alone. I was not making a broad generalization, but merely pointing out that yours was far too sweeping.

Thumb drives are great, but there's still a lot of optical disc usage going on, especially in US DoD circles, where they somehow see writable optical discs as different than writable USB flash drives. (I think that's bogus, too, but I don't make the rules.) Again, not applicable to the majority of ultra-portable users, who are not using them for official DoD-related business. Oh, and the issue with the thumb drives is a general prohibition on uncontrolled magnetic media - for classified data. General thumb drive usage on NIPR is fine (I do it all of the time). Are you letting your employees travel & watch DVDs on airplanes on their SIPR laptops???

In case you're wondering, I'm a communications officer, so I do know what I'm talking about on this issue. Magnetic media for UNCLAS and FOUO data is fine when safeguarded properly.

Or perhaps you are in the 3.12 lbs ultra-portable-with-an-optical-drive market (this ThinkPad). Eh? Yes! Different markets was exactly my point! If you want a "3.12 lbs ultra-portable-with-an-optical-drive", more power to you. Just don't be the guy whining that IBM or Apple offers me a 3 lbs or less system without it, because many of us do not need or want it.

Clarification

[DragonHawk]

What I was taking exception to was the idea that just because one can order the external peripherals, that's the same as having them built-in. In that case, you didn't make your point very well. What you actually said was:

Generally speaking, it's safe to assume that anyone wanting a super-mobile computer like an Air or this ThinkPad doesn't want to have wires and dongles they have to carry in their bag and/or hanging off the computer. And my point was that I never carry the stupid thing away from home. Okay, do you mean to imply that you actually don't mind encumbering your super-mobile computer with a variety of wires and equipment hanging off it? If so, why bother with the super-mobile in the first place? It's basically tied down to the work surface it's on at that point.

...I work in a corporate IT environment... Great, but not all ultra-portable users are corporate or business users. I'm fully aware of that. I only mentioned it because you were remarking on what I might use my optical drive for. You seemed to imply that the primary use of an optical drive is to install software on the local computer.

... the issue with the thumb drives is a general prohibition on uncontrolled magnetic media - for classified data. None of this stuff is classified or even FOUO. These laptops are not approved for classified data. But we encounter situations where floppies and CDs are somehow okay but USB flash drives are not. I actually suspect this is just local jurisdiction security people banning things instead of understanding the technology and managing risk, but we can't do anything to change them. We're just a measly subcontractor. And again, this isn't really related to the point I was originally making, but hey, it wouldn't be Slashdot if we stayed on one topic. :)

Re:Clarification

[kikta]

Okay, do you mean to imply that you actually don't mind encumbering your super-mobile computer with a variety of wires and equipment hanging off it? If so, why bother with the super-mobile in the first place? It's basically tied down to the work surface it's on at that point. No, merely that for my usage, the laptops (IBM ThinkPad X40 & formerly a Sharp PC-MM10) were only hooked up to an external optical drive once or twice a year. That was to install or upgrade the Linux distro on them. If I had a MacBook Air, I forsee the same level of usage.

I understand Windows users are more tethered to discs. I understand that in certain corporate environments, it is expected for the user to have an optical drive with them on the road. What I take exception to is this notion that the Air and the new ThinkPad are somehow "crippled". They are not crippled, merely designed for a different market segment - one which I (and others like me) happen to fall in to and do not want to see disappear to appease the "I want it to have darn near everything, but be magically tiny" crowd. We are willing to compromise on features in order to meet our larger need.

If you offered me a laptop that was the exact same size and weight as these with an optical drive, I wouldn't bitch that it had one. I would, however, wonder how much smaller and lighter it could have been without a drive that I consider unnecessary to have built-in. Thanks.

misinformation.

[v(*_*)vvvv]

Check the link for the Muramasa. The one I linked to is from the archives with info on the 2001 model. As for the price, I bought one for 900, so I guess you are calling me a liar, because you have no information on where or how I made my purchase. I bought one in 2004 at Akihabara, and it was an older model. In the PC market there is far more competition than in the Apple market. And the only reason I bought it was because it was available for 900.

I am happy for Apple-heads who have been waiting for a thin laptop. It's about time. But there is nothing innovative about it technologically, price-wise, or spec-wise. They made it 0.01" thinner than the thinnest notebook so they could brag about it and feed their cult, who go out and fight for them on boards like these for no pay. Apart from that, it is heavier, pricier, and very similar to many. They are capitalizing on their brand more than anything.

Good for them, and great for every happy owner.

But no one should go around hacking facts so they can continue to believe Apple walks on water.

(I am not making any accusations, but I would be troubled if I were showing any such traits.)

Re:misinformation.

[mr_matticus]

The one I linked to is from the archives with info on the 2001 model. As for the price, I bought one for 900, so I guess you are calling me a liar, because you have no information on where or how I made my purchase. I bought one in 2004 at Akihabara, and it was an older model. Okay, but a 3-year old notebook is not comparable to one that has been out a few weeks. I believe that you paid that amount. I do not believe it makes for a level comparison, however, since its price as released was substantially higher and 3-year-old old stock simply isn't the same as a new machine, even if it's still in sealed packaging.

They made it 0.01" thinner than the thinnest notebook so they could brag about it They made it a good deal thinner than that in cross section, without the ordinary compromises that force such a move (a tiny 10" 64K LCD; a miniaturized keyboard; a tiny or nonexistent trackpad). The average thickness of the machine is approximately half an inch. Only the back third is thicker than that, and the front third is thinner. In the back, at its thickest, it is thinner than the thinnest section of the thinnest notebook on the market (admittedly excepting ultraportables). Absolutely it's a gimmick, but their engineers weren't sitting on their asses.

Just in comparison, it is half the cross-sectional depth of the MacBook, already one of the world's slimmest notebooks. It is about 35% of the cross-sectional thickness of the typical notebook.